Politically Timed “Terror” Arrests – the Real Bob Quick Scandal

by craig on April 10, 2009 12:13 pm in UK Policy

The mainstream media is in a flurry of excitement over the “Terror” arrests of students in the North West of England. Linked to this is the media feeding frenzy over the resignation of Bob Quick, Scotland Yard’s anti-terror chief. It is important to note that the Quick incident only brought forward the arrests by a few hours. Yet in all the acres of coverage in the newspapers, and all the hype on TV, nobody seems to have noticed the real story.

It was an accident that Bob Quick had his secret document on display as he was photographed entering Downing St.

But it was no accident that he was photographed entering Downing Street.

No 10 is a Tardis-like building which is far more impressive inside than out, and which seems impossibly large. Its secret is that it links straight through to No 11 and, more importantly, through to the huge Cabinet Office building that runs along Whitehall. The Cabinet Office is the central secretariat of the British government and in effect the office of the Prime Minister. The separation of the No 10 staff and the Cabinet Office staff is a polite fiction. The government’s major interdepartmental committees meet in the Cabinet Office, including the sexy Joint Intelligence Committee and its sub-committees. One of the fascinating things about the vast Cabinet Office building is that it incorporates parts of the original fabric of the Tudor Whitehall Palace.

In the first Iraq War I used to hand carry intelligence reports to No 10, and sometimes had to explain them personally to Mrs Thatcher. I never once took one in the front door. In fact I have only ever walked in the front door of No 10 when accompanying a foreign dignitary or attending a party. The front door is for people the government wants to be seen ?” hence the permanent stand of photographers which captured Bob Quick. People arriving to brief on secret matters go in through the back door, or more likely through the Cabinet Office.

So why did the government want us to see that Bob Quick was entering No 10? The only possible answer is that, had things gone more smoothly in the arrest of the “Terror suspects”, the government would have paraded the footage of Quick entering no 10 as evidence that it was really Glorious Gordon and Genius Jacqui who had directed the operation and saved the world – again.

It is very, very wrong ?” it violates the whole spirit of the constitution ?” for politicians to be involved in arresting people. If the police had real evidence that these people are terrorists, then of course they should have been arrested when the Police felt the right moment had come. That moment is when they have sufficient evidence, and are not putting the public at risk by undue delay. That is a technical decision requiring skill, expertise and experience in operational policing.

It is a matter of the criminal law. It is absolutely not the business of Jacqui Smith and Gordon Brown. But we know that under New Labour the politicians are deciding who should be arrested and when. We know that for sure because then Home Secretary John Reid said in terms that he decided when the arrests should be made in the farcical “Bigger than 9/11″, (though in the event non-existent), “Liquid airplane bomb plot” case.

If politicians are going to decide the timing of arrests, then they cannot be surprised or aggrieved if we suspect that the timing of arrests is political.

This was definitely the case in the “Liquid Bomb Plot”. I know for certain from my own sources that in that case the intelligence services believed they had been forced by politicians to act too soon. That was quite widely reported at the time.

The view that John Reid had acted too early appears proved by a complex series of verdicts brought in by the jury. Less than half of those arrested actually were brought to trial. The jury found that three of the accused did have an intention to commit terror, but had formed no definite plan and specifically cleared them of the charge of planning to down aeroplanes with explosives.

Why had Reid jumped the gun? Because the Americans asked him to. With Bob Quick’s predecessor, the disgraced Andy Hayman, giving an official Scotland Yard view that the “Liquid Bomb Plot” was “Bigger than 9/11″ and involved plans to fly up to a dozen passenger jets simultaneously into different US cities, the resulting worldwide front page headlines were a Godsend for Bush in mid-term elections. They also enable the government to permanently ramp up the fear factor by the ludicrous toothpaste and shampoo searches that make flying so miserable.

In the liquid bomb plot do you remember the massive banner headlines ?” the full front page of every single tabloid in the UK -about the evil Muslim mother who planned to blow up herself and her baby along with the plane? There was no media reporting at all when she was cleared and released. The “Suspicious chemical” which police announced they had found in baby bottles was, errr, baby bottle sterilising solution.

The reasons why these “Terror raids” might be the subject of political timing could not be more obvious. Both Jacqui Smith and Gordon Brown were getting a well-deserved media pasting over the outrageous ripping off of the taxpayer for personal benefit through expense claims. The Metropolitan Police were under extreme criticism for their unprovoked killing of Ian Tomlinson.

So this morning, instead of the news headline being the disgraceful fact that the policeman who launched an unprovoked assault from behind on Ian Tomlinson has still not been arrested, the headline is that the police have saved us all from certain death.

Let me be plain. I am not saying that terrorism does not exist. I am not saying that those arrested are innocent. I do not know. I am saying that Brown and Smith’s involvement in operational police arrests, and the fact that less than 1% of those arrested under anti-terror legislation in the UK have ever been charged with anything connected to terrorism, gives me the right to be suspicious of what is undeniably, at the very least, politically very fortuitous timing.

It is also the arrest of alleged terrorists from Pakistan, at a time when the government is under both parliamentary and criminal investigation for participation in torture of terrorist suspects in Pakistan. The government has responded by arguing that intelligence from torture abroad is necessary to save lives in the UK. I have no doubt that we will find the government arguing that this “terror plot” justifies their case.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/03/fco_finally_adm.html

Because of this suspicion, I will be setting a high test for evidence that these arrests really were needed at this time. The accusation is that a bombing campaign was ready for this Easter ?” ie now. If that is true, there must be explosives and detonators ready, or in the very final stages of preparation. We will see.

According to Sky News this morning, police searches so far have discovered photographs of leading buildings in Manchester taken by the students.

I studied Russian in St Petersburg. I have photographs I took of the Hermitage, of the Church on the Holy Blood, of the St Peter and Paul Fortress, of the bridges over the Neva, of the ornate underground stations. I studied Polish in Lublin. I have photographs of Lublin castle, of the main shopping street, of the Catholic University of Lublin…

I have, in fact, photographs of prominent buildings everywhere I ever studied. And photographis in bars and nightclubs.

Why do the police feel the need to feed out to the media the complete non-news of the non-evidence that they have discovered photographs of Manchester in Manchester? Why was it necessary for the Prime Minister to make a statement announcing the arrests? What does that do to the chances of a fair trial? Why was it never necessary to make a prime ministerial statement every time a suspected Irish terrorist ?” and remember they really did blow up the Arndale Centre in Manchester ?” was arrested?

There are many genuine and diligent people carrying out counter-terrorism work in the police and intelligence services, working the old-fashioned way with painstaking accumulation of evidence. They do save lives and they should be applauded and supported. They should be free from political interference and distanced from politicians.

They may have foiled a genuine plot here. If so they must be congratulated. The Home Secretary ?”who has not foiled any plots – should have been briefed after arrests were made, and there should be no room for suspicion that politicians had interfered.

That would have stuck to the cardinal rule of only telling people who actually have to know about an operation – and the rule of not carting around secret documents for no purpose.

The photo leak ?” which could indeed have jeopardised a security operation which may or may not prove to have been vital – was caused directly by the excessive and completely unnecessary involvement of the politicians in policing detail.

A police state is not a state where the police rule. It is a state where there is no distance between the politicians and police.

A police state is a state where a policeman can be caught on camera launching an unprovoked fatal assault from behind, yet not be arrested. A police state is a state where the police raid the parliamentary offices of opposition MPs. A police state is a state where it is the politicians who are making the decisions on who gets arrested and when.

114 Comments

  1. JimmyGiro

    10 Apr, 2009 - 1:00 pm

    I agree with most of what you conclude, but when you say “A police state is not a state where the police rule.”, I would suggest that petty bureaucracies will endeavour to build their little empires amongst us as they emulate their masters, a collateral consequence of a ‘police state’, is the police attempting to rule by proxy.

    They even use similar templates such as ‘quota filling targets’ to justify their malfeasance:

    http://jimmygiro.blogspot.com/2009/04/quotum-of-justice.html

  2. subrosa

    10 Apr, 2009 - 1:14 pm

    There’s a wee post on Holyrood Chronicles confirming your comment about evidence Craig.

    http://tiny.cc/G902m

  3. MJ

    10 Apr, 2009 - 1:36 pm

    If people attending No. 10 usually enter by the back door, and the timing of these raids and the associated media brouhaha is so fortuitous, can we really be certain that Quick’s lapse was really an accident?

  4. Strategist

    10 Apr, 2009 - 1:42 pm

    Good post, Craig. Thanks

  5. Jaded

    10 Apr, 2009 - 1:44 pm

    ‘It was an accident that Bob Quick had his secret document on display as he was photographed entering Downing St.’

    That’s the only bit i’m unsure about. I wouldn’t be surprised if this raid wasn’t imminent, if to happen at all, and needed bringing forward. However, I could of course be wrong. It’s easy to look for more stink when all you see is stink and I wouldn’t apologise for having that attitiude.

  6. xsdogskin

    10 Apr, 2009 - 2:09 pm

    Intelligent piece, with clear argument written with the knowledge of personal experience.

    I think this was a particularly ham-fisted attempt of the government to make political capital from these arrests. I expect that no physical evidence will be found, let alone substantive charges.

    It seems to have backfired at a very early stage. Brown and Smith holders of high office are little better than laughing stocks.

  7. ruth

    10 Apr, 2009 - 2:17 pm

    A police state is also when the judiciary conspire with the government agencies to cover up illegal acts by these agencies undertaken at the behest of the government

    as in Lockerbie, excise and VAT fraud cases.

  8. punterhunt

    10 Apr, 2009 - 2:45 pm

    When there is a plot by a white supremicist or a fanatical jewish, I mean Zionist terrorist to blow up a mosque or a STWC meeting I hope the police arrest those involved. Even if the wrong arrest was made at least it would deter the real terrorists from the attack.

  9. StefZ

    10 Apr, 2009 - 3:05 pm

    The Daily Mash has sussed it…

    http://tinyurl.com/ce2twx

  10. William

    10 Apr, 2009 - 4:46 pm

    This is an excellent post, Craig. As soon as I heard of these raids I thought it was a rather “good day to bury bad news” and replace that news with something else. Where is Jo Moore these days?

    By another coincidence the five people arrested in Plymouth a week ago as part of an “anti-terror” investigation relating to the G20 have all now just been released without charge. No surprise there then.

  11. craig

    10 Apr, 2009 - 5:01 pm

    Punterhunt

    “Even if the wrong arrest was made at least it would deter the real terrorists from the attack”.

    What complete drivel. Let’s arrest you then. Might deter real terrorists.

  12. Charles Crawford

    10 Apr, 2009 - 5:11 pm

    Craig,

    This is just too much. Are you being serious?

    As an FCO official I have walked through the front door of No 10 on my own on numerous occasions to meet No 10 officials, watching with amusement the looks of the bored media folk on the other side of the street who no doubt were wondering who I was. So your whole thesis promptly collapses.

    Maybe back in the days when you were a fairly junior official briefing Lady Thatcher (before they put up the elaborate railings and security barriers?) things were different, ie officials were expected to use a different entrance.

    Now if you are on the No 10 visitors’ list you just show up at the main police entrance to Downing Street and walk to the front door. You press the bell and a policeman opens the door, checks your name and rings the person you are visiting to come and collect you. 100% prosaic.

    In the Bob Quick case, he may have wanted to look important for vanity reasons. But to look at the quite uninteresting fact that he used the front door and then assert that ‘the only possible answer’ is that he arrived at that entrance for later TV management reasons (and/or that it shows that politicians are involved in deciding the timing of arrests)is beyond ridiculous.

    You maybe should apologise for misleading your readers.

    Regards,

    Charles

  13. Jaded

    10 Apr, 2009 - 5:41 pm

    ‘But to look at the quite uninteresting fact that he used the front door and then assert that ‘the only possible answer’ is that he arrived at that entrance for later TV management reasons (and/or that it shows that politicians are involved in deciding the timing of arrests)is beyond ridiculous.’

    Well, whether he usually would have gone through the front door or back door is a moot point for me. My view is even if he would have normally go in through the back door – and this could have changed as you have indicated, I know not – he still would have been made to go in through the front door. The purpose of his visit was to leak the papers is my view. I would also aver that he was under direct instruction to do this. Furthermore, I would say that in some cases, and I see this as one of those cases, politicians will definitely be secretly involved in the timing of arrests. I think you are being a little naive. Do you think the intelligence community pushed the issue and timing of wmd on the government or vice versa? Thats exactly the same principle, albeit on a huge scale. If Craig finds he was ‘innocently mistaken’ i’m sure he will apologise for being ‘innocently mistaken’. Don’t mean to speak for you Craig, just speaking my kind. Obviously you will make your own response.

  14. craig

    10 Apr, 2009 - 5:50 pm

    Charles,

    Your experience is different from mine -but then modesty never was your strong suit.

    I am not claiming there was a postive rule prohibiting entrance by the front door. But if you were carrying secret documents around and giving intelligence briefings it always seemed to me sensible to be as discreet as humanly possible. All of us involved in the aspect I was involved in at the time – from the invasion of Kuwait until the war proper – did the same thing. That included people up to the highest levels, so it wasn’t anything to do with my being “Junior”, though glad to see your snobbery still kicking as ever. Your blog posting about your being the only man ever to have held four Ambassadorial posts before the age of 53 years and seven months kept me laughing for weeks.

    None of which affects my argument that Quick had no business to be consulting the Home Secretary and Prime Minister in advance of the Manchester arrests.

    Do you never get tired of arguing for the government Establishment now you have retired from their formal employment?

  15. mary

    10 Apr, 2009 - 6:29 pm

    I have just skimmed CC’s Blogoir. How pretentious and what a load of (boring)twaddle. Why is he so bitchy about Craig?

  16. anticant

    10 Apr, 2009 - 6:35 pm

    The really interesting question about the intelligence services and their political “masters” is who controls whom? It’s plain to anyone who’s read Peter Wright’s “Spycatcher” that some pretty nutty characters find their way into spookery. And they’ve doubtless got files on all senior politicians, and maybe on royalty too, containing some highly inconvenient facts [or fictions] which their subjects wouldn’t wish to see the light of day….

  17. Jeff

    10 Apr, 2009 - 6:41 pm

    Brilliant article.

    Thanks for sharing your insights.

  18. Jaded

    10 Apr, 2009 - 6:56 pm

    I don’t know if anyone has seen this, but I would urge everyone to watch it.

    video.google.com/videoplay?docid=866739408240639313

    What DeCamp says between 2.18-2.33 is key to your point anticant. Also, although the video is centred on one theme and one chain of events it speaks volumes about a corrupt system/systems. That is the best quality version on the net as far as I am aware. However, it misses the last few minutes for some odd reason. Just catch the last few minutes here. Blew my mind when I first saw this. Didn’t seem real.

    video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3395321338401208062&hl=en

  19. Jess

    10 Apr, 2009 - 6:57 pm

    Good post, Craig. Thanks

    Posted by: Strategist at April 10, 2009 1:42 PM

    That will be remembered.

  20. craig

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:02 pm

    Jess,

    Are you making some kind of threat towards Srategist? What a peculiar person you are.

  21. Jess

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:03 pm

    To the person Stephen who repeatedly posts Mr Murray’s articles on Medialens, relating to the officer involved not having been interviewed yet.

    The media are reporting that he collapsed upon hearing the news that he was in the video and was taken to hospital by his wife who found him on the floor. That seems to be the main reason for the delay.

    The IPCC confirmed last night that the Met have not lied or misled anyone about this case, so you can rest assurred that you have been served well. There is absolute zero evidence of a cover up.

    I know we are all interested in there being a proper and fair investigation, and possibly a fair trial if it gets to that, so we should all stop speculating and making assertions until we have all the facts.

  22. Jess

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:08 pm

    “Are you making some kind of threat towards Srategist? What a peculiar person you are”

    No, it will be remembered that he responded by saying “good post” to the most outrageous and utterly absurd conspiracy theory. The idea that seperate police forces in another part of the country moved an incredibly sensitive and complex anti terror opertion, and that the head of counter terror deliberately got himself fired, all to put this incident where a heart attack victim was pushed over by the Met in London, only to second place on the news, is quite clearly insane.

  23. craig

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:09 pm

    Jess

    Plainly he was aware that he had hit Mr Tomlinsom with a baton – it was a deliberate act, not an involuntary one. So his shock at being on the video was merely shock at being caught on a tape that the Police could not destroy. Forgive me if I am not overcome with sorrow at his alleged medical condition.

    We would undeed all love to see a fair and proper investigation. Any notion that we will get one from the IPCC is nonsense. Anyway this should not be a matter for the IPCC. The man should be facing criminal charges of at least manslaughter.

  24. Jess

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:12 pm

    The liquid bomb plotters were convicted, of course, so who knows what you are going on about there.

  25. craig

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:12 pm

    Jess,

    You are reading another blog. I do not believe Quick deliberately showed the paper to the media – I think it was an accident. If you think very hard you will be able to deduce that from the sentence:

    “It was an accident that Bob Quick had his secret document on display as he was photographed entering Downing St.”

    Frankly you are a very poor Nulab troll indeed.

  26. Greengorilla47

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:12 pm

    As well as the reasons Craig gives for the political nature of this ‘terror raid’ there might be another: The British public is being massaged in preparation for an all-out USUK attack on Pakistan. And just two days ago there was a Pakistani politician on BBC News claiming that it is the intention of the US –and by association the UK– to break-up Pakistan.

    So it appears that the ‘terror raid’ might have served many purposes.

    As soon as I hear the bogeyman ‘Al Qaeda’ mentioned I know we are dealing with a hoax. People who keep talking about Al Qaeda have either been taken in by the post-911 ‘War on Terror’ propaganda or, like Frank ‘Goebbels’ Gardner, are deliberately seeking to perpetuate a myth.

  27. writerman

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:17 pm

    Craig,

    Another interesting, provocative, and well-thought-out piece. Thanks.

  28. Jess

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:20 pm

    A lot of people were hit with batons that day. I don’t find it totally unbelievable that the officer only found out it was him upon watching the video. But regardless, personally I don’t see how that could be the cause of the man’s death given Tomlinson walked away from the incident, and we do not know all the circumstances. I will wait for all the facts. You are just using this case to spreading loony tune conspiracy theories so you quite clearly don’t give a toss.

  29. craig

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:30 pm

    “I don’t see how that could be the cause of the man’s death given Tomlinson walked away from the incident”.

    How can you talk such complete rubbish? I recall on an earlier ost you told us he died of a heart attack brought on by alcohol. Clearly you and medical scisnce are strangers.

  30. Jess

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:30 pm

    Craig, I haven’t got a clue what your piece is trying to say – it doesn’t make sense on any level – so it’s no surprise you believe I have misinterpreted it.

    One thing we do know is, if this terror case falls flat and the suspects released, we will hear endless talk of how the police hyped it up and were just trying to scare everybody for no reason. If the suspects are charged, however, due to our over the top media laws in this country, that will be the last time we hear about it until they are convicted, and then it just make the headlines for day before it goes down the memory hole.

    That’s why people are so ignorant of other huge plots that were successfully convicted, like the liquid bomb plot, the fertilizer one, and the plot to behead a British soldier, etc.

  31. Jess

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:33 pm

    “How can you talk such complete rubbish? I recall on an earlier ost you told us he died of a heart attack brought on by alcohol. Clearly you and medical scisnce are strangers.”

    It’s more likely years of alcholism killed him than one little fall that he got up and walked away from, don’t you think? But you’re right that we must keep an open mind and not assert anything as fact and prejudice the inquiry.

  32. Jaded

    10 Apr, 2009 - 7:34 pm

    ‘The idea that seperate police forces in another part of the country moved an incredibly sensitive and complex anti terror opertion, and that the head of counter terror deliberately got himself fired, all to put this incident where a heart attack victim was pushed over by the Met in London, only to second place on the news, is quite clearly insane.’

    You have neglected to mention the expenses scandal. It was Tomlinson AND the expenses scandal that triggered those raids now. I would say devious more than insane, but an insane idea nonetheless. You are certainly right there Jess. I take it you mean ‘insane’ like Iraq was. As for Quick, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was glad to escape their clutches. Craig and I seem to disagree on the leak, but that’s democracy. Hopefully he doesn’t want to throw me in a dungeon. I don’t understand why you post here Jess? You just end up looking silly all the time from what I have seen. I’m sure you don’t upset anyone either. The folk here seem too mature. Why not grow a conscience and join the dissenting ranks? You on a payroll or something? The increasing loss of our liberties is plain to see.

  33. craig

    10 Apr, 2009 - 8:20 pm

    ‘The idea that seperate police forces in another part of the country moved”

    Actually the Bob Quick position carried a unique responsibility outside the Met to coordinate all Polce counterterrorism activities nationwide

  34. MerkinOnParis

    10 Apr, 2009 - 8:48 pm

    StefZ’s Daily Mash post was hilarious.

    I do think that Quick deliberately flashed his docs – the government has recent form on that with the Caroline Flint case being opened by the same photographer.

    The thing that hasn’t been examined fully is what instructions the senior inspector gave to the assailant before the Tomlinson attack – you can see it in the channel 4 video ie immediately before attacking, the officer concerned appears to be receiving orders from his senior.

  35. Joseph

    10 Apr, 2009 - 8:53 pm

    Jess says that he can’t see how the baton assault on Tomlinson could be the cause of his death “given Tomlinson walked away from the incident”.

    No so. There is a legal principle known as “the eggshell skull rule”, which holds that a person is liable for all the consequences following from any injury they cause to another person, even if that other person has a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition which causes them to suffer serious injury or death. This means that if it can be shown that Tomlinson’s heart stopped because of the baton assault on him, then the police officer is responsible for causing his death.

  36. subrosa

    10 Apr, 2009 - 9:44 pm

    ‘It’s more likely years of alcholism killed him than one little fall that he got up and walked away from, don’t you think? ‘

    Jess you know what they say about people who assume don’t you? There is no evidence that excessive alcohol would kill a person of 47, believe me. Ask AA for it, google it, do the lot. You won’t find anyone prepared to say that a person with an alcohol dependancy is prone of a heart attack under the age of 50.

    Do try to do some research before you post blethers.

  37. kevin

    10 Apr, 2009 - 10:41 pm

    an excellent piece which is why I now visit this blog on a regular basis to get an informed view and which on this occasion I wholeheartedly agree with.in a police state they can suppress,at will, the (copious)cctv in the city of london and this is what they have done here..?

  38. Origin

    10 Apr, 2009 - 10:53 pm

    Great article. Thanks.

  39. Vronsky

    10 Apr, 2009 - 11:03 pm

    A blow to the head which seems unthreatening or even trivial at the time can kill. Apparently the accident which killed Liam Neeson’s wife was quite minor. Many years ago a close friend of mine died after a minor shunt in a car in which he bumped his head against the roof of the car. He laughed, rubbed his head, went home and died in his sleep of an epidural haematoma. The BEEB is so emphatic in its attribution of Tomlinson’s death to a heart attack that one is bound to suspect it to be a lie – such times have we come to. But let us indeed hear all the evidence – including that of the witnesses who say that the assault by the police shown in the Guardian footage was not the first on Mr Tomlinson.

    On the other hand, I have to agree with Jess to the extent that Quick’s resignation seems like overkill – if they’d simply wanted to bury the news of Tomlinson’s killing, the raids on ‘suspects’ were quite adequate, given the inevitable gleeful connivance of the BBC and most of the rest of the MSM. Equally, resignation is become so uncommon that one feels Quick’s action serves some ends beyond those given.

    Oh – and perhaps we should warn Jess that nowadays, styling something a ‘conspiracy theory’ is a pretty dependable hallmark of its truth.

  40. Jaded

    10 Apr, 2009 - 11:19 pm

    Yes the raids were adequate, but they wouldn’t have happened if Quick hadn’t done the leak. So ‘if’ you were to agree with my view – and you may well not – that he deliberately did the leak, then the resignation was just a simple consequence of that. They probably foresaw that he would likely have to resign when they concocted it all. He had to go after a ‘mistake’ like that.

  41. J7

    10 Apr, 2009 - 11:29 pm

    Craig, Great article. Thanks.

    Some observations…

    Jess wrote at April 10, 2009 7:12 PM:

    >”The liquid bomb plotters were convicted, of course, so who knows what you are going on about there.”

    & at April 10, 2009 7:30 PM:

    “That’s why people are so ignorant of other huge plots that were successfully convicted, like the liquid bomb plot, the fertilizer one, and the plot to behead a British soldier, etc.”

    The ‘Fertiliser’ ‘conspiracy’ trial featured the testimony of overworked ‘Al Queda supergrass’ _Mohammed Junaid Babar_ & the testimonial evidence (obtained from the torture of Amin in Pakistan, under the knowledge of the UK spooks) of _Salahuddin Amin_.

    The ‘Liquid (airline) bomb plot ‘conspiracy’, which (as Craig notes) was revealed to the public in government home office/treasury/police tizzy circumstances when the Bank of England published some sanctions), has not been ‘successfully’ convicted at all.

    In the first trial, the person touted as the ‘key’ ‘ringleader’ (Mohammed Gulzar) was acquitted of all charges and was formally discharged at the conclusion of Trial No. 1 (April 08 ?” September 08). Three of the original 21 persons arrested (Abdullah Ali, Assad Sarwar,, and Tanvir Hussain) _admitted_(plea-bargained) conspiracy to cause explosions likely to endanger life, but the jury was unable to reach verdicts on a second charge of conspiracy to murder by blowing up passenger jets. (Expect the verdict shortly after Easter, delivered to the public, around the time of whenever the next ‘bury-bad-news day’ falls).

    However a second trial commenced in February 2009. The jury in this trial (which is jury set No.3 – the previous juries having been dismissed on 18th February 2009 (http://preview.tinyurl.com/ambsne) & on 27th February 2009 (http://preview.tinyurl.com/aj5qs4)) has yet to deliver its’ verdict.

    With regard to the plot to behead a British soldier, if you remember that ‘conspiracy’ also involved a government/police/media tizzy (http://preview.tinyurl.com/c47hwh).

  42. tristan

    10 Apr, 2009 - 11:54 pm

    Seems to me that, no matter how junior or senior, it was a weird thing that he went in the front door carrying papers without a folder or briefcase.

    Surely something as sensitive as this should have been kept very quiet if it was neceassary at all. Back door, papers in a locked briefcase, etc.

    It wasn’t something to do with trying to distract attention from Ms Smith and her smutty husband’s entertainment choices, and her need to claim expenses for bath plugs at 88p, was it?

    If so, it’s no wonder Mr Quick got his massive pension deal……

  43. mark

    11 Apr, 2009 - 12:45 am

    “There is no evidence that excessive alcohol would kill a person of 47, believe me. Ask AA for it, google it, do the lot. You won’t find anyone prepared to say that a person with an alcohol dependancy is prone of a heart attack under the age of 50.”

    Actually Jess is right on this point. If someone has been an alcoholic for all of their life, and is a chain smoker, it is not uncommon for them to have heart attack by the time of their late 40s. It can happen to them even in their 30s. That’s why it’s not good to be a heavy drinker and smoker.

    It is unlikely that a healthy man would have died from this assault.

  44. Ruth

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:34 am

    I’ve learnt that anything that appears stupid or incompetent in relation to government activities is not as it seems. To me Quick’s exposure was contrived and most definitely related to the death of Ian Tomlinson. If the police launched the raid, then it would be blatantly obvious they wanted to bury the G20 death. But with the added dimension of Quick’s ‘folly’ it looks less obvious. Quick may have been intending to retire and offered himself up. Surely there are cases where government agents go to prison ‘for the good of the country’ and go out the back door. Maybe he’s going to get an additional bonus from government offshore funds.

  45. Anonymous

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:53 am

    See a related petition to ‘Fix British Protest Policing’ at AVAAZ.ORG: http://www.avaaz.org/en/fix_british_protest_policing/?cl=214556405&v=3198

  46. Anonymous

    11 Apr, 2009 - 2:00 am

    So it’s alright to kill an ‘unhealthy’ man is it Mark?

  47. Anas Taunton

    11 Apr, 2009 - 2:28 am

    greengorilla47

    Gordon Brown has been pushing the same line about Pakistan ever since he became P.M.. It is a view singularly his own that that wonderful country and its lovely Muslim people are a threat to the U.K. in some form.

    He keeps on repeating the lie, but he is unwilling to ask the question why maybe two million patriotic ( to the UK ) Pakistanis have decided to make the U.K. their home because they respect this country and its values.

    Can Mr Brown explain to us why the British are attacking Afghanistan and what he expects Afghanistan’s neighbours to feel about this invasion? The British public is not easily going to be softened up for another illegal invasion. The last person who will persuade them is another New Labour Prime Minister. Just as with Gaza and the Banking Crisis, Gordon Brown is showing us again that he doesn’t understand anything about British public opinion.

    Yes Mr Quick’s personal life has been too often on the front pages of daily newspapers for the liking of the spin-merchants of New Labour. But Mr Brown will also be walking the gang plank long before the next election, because they know we know he doesn’t know anything about anything.

  48. Sam

    11 Apr, 2009 - 2:46 am

    Jess says that he can’t see how the baton assault on Tomlinson could be the cause of his death “given Tomlinson walked away from the incident”.

    No so. There is a legal principle known as “the eggshell skull rule”, which holds that a person is liable for all the consequences following from any injury they cause to another person, even if that other person has a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition which causes them to suffer serious injury or death.

    >>> Jess, see R v Blau: Lawton LJ ruling that, as a matter of public policy, those “who use violence on others must take their victims as they find them.”, invoking the thin-skull rule.

    (Better still, invest in a CPE course, it’ll save you making yourself look so daft so often.)

  49. nextus

    11 Apr, 2009 - 4:53 am

    RIP the comedian Lennie Bennett ?” who, the papers report today, “died from a fall”, although not immediately. NuLab should be familiar with the phenomenon of delayed death ?” remember what happened to Donald Dewar?

    * That was a wonderfully incisive post, Craig; you have a gift for distilling absurdities from official prevarication.

  50. Faisal Ahmad

    11 Apr, 2009 - 5:17 am

    Great insight.

    If you like this post then you must also read this book: “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception”

  51. Jaded

    11 Apr, 2009 - 6:26 am

    ‘RIP the comedian Lennie Bennett ?” who, the papers report today, “died from a fall”, although not immediately. NuLab should be familiar with the phenomenon of delayed death ?” remember what happened to Donald Dewar?’

    I know nothing of the Dewar case. If we are talking suspicious Labour deaths though, and i’m not sure if that’s what you are actually getting at, I would throw John Smith and Robin Cook into the equation. This is always tricky ground, but I felt I should at least air my doubts. I know some people may well pooh pooh me. That’s ok. As long as it isn’t The Jessy… :-)

  52. nextus

    11 Apr, 2009 - 7:23 am

    Jaded, my point was that when a death occurs after a fall, it can be attributed to that fall (contrary to what the trolls are claiming about Tomlinson). Donald Dewar, then Scotland’s first minister, fell on the steps of his Edinburgh residence and reassured everyone he was fine, but soon became ill and died a few hours later. (He wasn’t surreptitiously assassinated by the establishment; nor was Lennie Bennett, for that matter.)

    Back to Bob Quick: on his ‘blogoir’ the eminent Charles G Crawford tries to refute Craig’s argument thus: “Craig in a fine example of the Law of the Excluded Middle claims that because he himself has been through the front door on No 10 only with a senior delegation or attending a party, no-one else can use that entrance for attending meetings.”

    This is hardly much of a criticism, since the Law of Excluded Middle is one of the fundamental axioms of logic! I guess he’s obliquely referring to the Fallacy of False Dilemma, which results from its misapplication. But even then, he’s still wrong: he’s actually insinuating the Fallacy of Accident (a generalisation error). And anyway, his critique misses the mark. Craig’s argument doesn’t depend on simple logical form, but is based on contextual reasoning and complex implication. Sorry to burst your ego bubble, Chuck, but you’re about as logical as Humpty-Dumpty. The critique only works if *you* commit the error. So much for your ‘nice knock-down argument’. *Professional Criticism Rating: 1/10*

    Have a look at the self-indulgence in his blogoir: he gives his own “Professional Judgement Rating” of Craig’s actions in all his commentaries. Not only is this desperately patronising; it has very disturbing overtones. It is evident throughout that Chuck equates professionalism with the suppression of embarrassing facts which might jeopardise the establishment’s ‘greater’ interests. In a blog on the Independent entitled “Asking diplomats to hold their tongues” he confesses: “Twice as an FCO official I played a part in squashing the British public’s hopes of seeing fascinating confidential official documents.” He ends with a telling aphorism, “Like fish, governments rot from the head.” Indeed. His own attitude exemplifies the moral decay. He was an establisment toady, maverick only in regard of his vanity.

    Craig is right about Chuck’s lack of modesty: he’s a bit of peacock. Read his blogoir: he frequently refers to his own status or expertise and denigrates others. Incidentally, I note that, like other egotists, he has contributed to his own Wikipedia entry (dutifully started by the FCO’s Clare Goodall), using the identity ‘C Crawford CMG’ ?” do you know of anyone else who parades appointed letters their Wiki username? (Consider, by comparison, that Craig successively declined 3 British honours ?” LVO, OBE & CVO. This says a lot about their respective personalities.) *Professional psychological assessment: Narcissistic Personality Disorder* (which I guess is just another attempt to ‘manage’ public opinion).

    Craig’s writing is much more humble (in general), satirical, incisive and nuanced. A potent combincation.

  53. nobody

    11 Apr, 2009 - 7:31 am

    Jess says that people are ignorant on the subject of liquid bombs? He is absolutely right and may include himself in that statement.

    There is no such thing as a liquid bomb – never has been, never will be. It’s a myth from Hollywood.

    But don’t take my word for it, have a read and see if ‘complete and utter bullshit’ isn’t the most accurate description of the whole caper -

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/

    Meanwhile the War On Bottles Of Shampoo continues unabated.

    PS And Craig, what terrorism would you be prepared to label as real? Whilst I’m happy to concede the possibility of such a thing, so much of what we’re told is terror is fake, that I have trouble telling. I reckon for every ‘real’ terrorist plot you care to mention I could find you a half dozen that are as genuine as a two bob watch. Oh, and plots that involve government agents procuring weapons, assembling them, and explaining how to use them don’t count.

    PPS And anyone who wants to mention the 7th of July bombings may only do so after they ring Peter Power of Visor Consulting and ask him if the exercise he was running that day, that precisely targeted the train stations in question and employed a thousand people, didn’t also include four people to play the part of terrorists.

  54. nextus

    11 Apr, 2009 - 7:36 am

    Oops. I meant to say Chuck’s ‘a bit of a (vainglorious) peacock’, not that he’s ‘a bit of peacock’ – though I guess you could say that as well. Which bit? I’ll give you a clue – it’s not the pea.

  55. Vronsky

    11 Apr, 2009 - 9:35 am

    I sometimes wonder if I might be responsible for War on Bottles of Shampoo. After getting a particularly irksome time from security at an airport, I was subsequently surprised when they allowed me to walk on to the plane carrying a bottle of water. It was one of those bottles with a nozzle, so that you can squeeze a jet of liquid from it. I could think of other commonly available liquids that I could have put in the bottle to make a simple weapon. I wrote to the airline and pointed this out. It was just after that that they banned all bottles and liquids. Sorry, everyone!

  56. craig

    11 Apr, 2009 - 10:53 am

    nextus

    Thanks for that. My serious criticism of Charles is his overriding concern with procedure over substance. He managed to write a nine part review of Murder in Samarkand without mentioning torture, or the issue of British complicity in it!

    He doesn’t seem in the least concerned with whether there really is a terror plot in Manchester.

    As a person he’s actually very pleasant and good company. Much funnnier in the flesh than in writing.

  57. V ronsky

    11 Apr, 2009 - 11:01 am

  58. Peter Owen

    11 Apr, 2009 - 11:59 am

    I like the bit where you say terrorsim does exist.

    I’m sure the people who lost loved ones in 9/11, 7/7 the bali and madrid bombings etc can verify this for you.

    If these people are found guilty, will you be as quick to write an article praising the police for saving lives?

    I very much doubt it

  59. Gorgonzola

    11 Apr, 2009 - 12:04 pm

    With pompous people such as Charles in senior positions of the Establishment, it is no wonder that this country is a laughing stock of the world.

    I came looking on the internet this morning for an alternative version of events on this news “story” as I was getting a bit tired of it still being dragged out on News24 when not even a “bomb factory” had been found.

    As for the “leaked” document, I noted from the images released of Bob leaving the range rover, that the typeface was very much larger than that normally used in A4 documents. This seems odd. Also even if he had forgot to put the document in a folder, surely for a “Secret” document it would have at the very least had a stapled on front page. Maybe Craig can enlighten us as to the document house styles inside our highly professional government and police forces.

    My own view is that Bob is damaged goods and was going to retire from the Met soon anyway. Maybe he didn’t get on with Boris? What’s the betting he will land up in some high paid consultancy role soon? Is Peter Power recruiting at the moment?

  60. Jess

    11 Apr, 2009 - 12:20 pm

    “Jess says that people are ignorant on the subject of liquid bombs? He is absolutely right and may include himself in that statement. There is no such thing as a liquid bomb – never has been, never will be. It’s a myth from Hollywood.”

    Such ignorance. Using the ingredience that they found in the burried suitcase in the works, the jury were giving a demonstration of how the liquid bombs work – video of it exploding. Panorama showed this on their special about it.

    It’s amazing that people will just read someone on a website and take that as fact, even though they haven’t seen anything about the case. Frightening.

    Craig, you should be away of what type of people you are attracting on this site.

  61. Chris

    11 Apr, 2009 - 12:58 pm

    Oh Jess,

    you just don’t give up do you? You saw an explosion on the BBC so it must be real, mustn’t it?

    Did the BBC concoct their ‘bomb’ in a plane toilet – with the hours of constant stirring required, while not atracting any attention and while maintaining constant temperatures not usually available in an airborne bog? Or are you spouting bollocks again?

  62. MJ

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:23 pm

    Peter Owen: of course terrorism exists; who could possibly suggest it doesn’t? I’m sure however that the relatives of those who persished on 9/11 and 7/7 would expect that their respective governments at least ensure that full and proper enquiries take place into those events. We can only dream of what vital information and intelligence would emerge from such enquiries.

    The governments’ persistent failure to countenance such enquiries proves, beyond any doubt, that they have no genuine interest in countering terrorism whatsoever. We really have to ask ourselves why this is.

  63. wendy mann

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:35 pm

    this plot is all hype but serves the average redneck kneejerks politics of hate.

    the fact is the government planned this propaganda exercise for this weekend so that it would hit the news broadcasters big time with a lot of coverage instead that plan was put off course firstly by tomlinsons death and quicks unfortunate disclosure.

    the interesting part of that manifest was right at the bottom .. “media strategy” .. since we know that such raids can be undertaken covertly without any or little reporting or ‘sources’ blabbing as much as they can to get a narrative out one has to wonder why not if its a real plot of any worth.

    why would government and police seek to accuse and demonise before due process?

    anyway if youre not certain what its all about .. the usa-uk have been planning the afghan surge into pakistan for some years, we now have pretty much all we need in place militarily so this was part of the justification for our new war. (if you hadnt noticed both sky and bbc have been doing quite a bit of pr for the hearts and minds campaign on behalf of the government).

    as the pakistan high commissioner stated on newsnight last night the whole process of vetting and giving visas is undertaken by the british govt.

    so for brown to blame pakistan is a bit of a own goal. ( not to mention our 300 year long war with the irish which is still ongoing )

    anyway the important linkage is that if we are going to go around killing hundreds of innocent people we can only create more militancy. and the fact is the oblairma-bush strategy in the region has been a failure and will continue to be so until it is recognised that european cultural imperialism is not wanted.

    further the government is playing with some stats to create a sense of threat that doesnt really exist at the level they want us to believe.

    the recent mantra has been that 70% of all severe terrorist activities have some link to pakistan.

    firstly 50% of muslims are from pakistan so 70% is not so much or a surprise when the majority of the conflict is in that region of the world.

    that is usa drones and covert actions killing many many civilians

    further the 70% figure is after one has decided which activities are classed as ‘severe’. wholly subjective and open to political manipulation.

    apparently this current alleged plot was to take place this weekend, and yet no weapons or bombs just some holiday snaps.

    and again speaking pushtu (their native dialect of choice)and calling back home is a terrorist threat these days.

    after the lies of tomlinson, de menezes etc and other high profile raids that have been proven to be cowpoo nothing can be believed as being true either from this government or the politicised police force that we have today.

    its just another exercise to serve their mad ideological neo conservative wars.

  64. wendy mann

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:48 pm

    “If these people are found guilty, will you be as quick to write an article praising the police for saving lives?

    I very much doubt it

    Posted by: Peter Owen ”

    is terrorism just 9/11 7/7 etc or do you think iraq, afghanistan and our current covert war against pakistan (uk special forces training afghan and baluchistan militia) is terrorism too?

    usa drones are killing civilians daily inside of paksitan and afghanistan, no one reporting it to you?

    yesterday the usa killed 2 women and killed an unborn child of a 9 month pregnant woman in afghanistan . terrorism? unreported?

    what about the american soldier who disguised themselves as iraqis and then went on to rape a 14yo girl before killing not only her but her whole family?

    do you really believe these to be isolated incidents?

    the idiocy is that because our war crimes are not reported on a daily basis we arrive at the stupid notion that those who resist our foreign policies are doing so because they are some how deranged and primitive.

  65. mary

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:51 pm

    The Liquid Bomb Hoak – The Larger

    Chris @ 12.58pm

    Quite.

    Implications by James Petras

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3069

    Impossible to Make a Liquid Bomb on a Plane – Lt Col Nigel Wylde ex UK Intelligence Service

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364×2164763

  66. wendy mann

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:54 pm

    “He doesn’t seem in the least concerned with whether there really is a terror plot in Manchester.”

    neo conservative ideologues as we have at the top of new labour today arent concerned about terrorism period.

    it is about serving a political agenda : terrorism, islam etc are a means to an end.

    it is also a means to deny accountability of those who have chosen to inflict so much pain on so many.

  67. mary

    11 Apr, 2009 - 1:54 pm

    Somehow the title of the first link was shortened. Should be

    The Liquid Bomb Hoax: The Larger Implications

    by James Petras

    Global Research, August 25, 2006

    http://www.dissidentvoice.org

  68. wendy mann

    11 Apr, 2009 - 2:04 pm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7993352.stm

    looks as if all is going to plan in the region ..

  69. Jess

    11 Apr, 2009 - 2:50 pm

    Chris, you claim I am spouting bollocks because I point out that the liquid bomb plotters were convicted and it was possible to make the liquid bombs?

    You’ve really got to start using your brain here. The fertilizer bomb plotters were also convicted.

    This is real.

  70. Jess

    11 Apr, 2009 - 2:53 pm

    If it makes you feel better to think the BBC, the jury and everybody else is lying, then so be it. But don’t be surprised if serious people laugh at you.

  71. craig

    11 Apr, 2009 - 2:59 pm

    Jess

    Actually just three out of the 24 arrested were eventually convicted, but not of an intent to blow up aeroplanes with liquid bombs. They were specifically cleared on that charge. It seems they were planning some kind of terrorsit attack, but hadn’t got very far in planning what.

    But the Manchester terrorists were according to the propaganda going to attack this weekend. So where is the bomb or firearms?

  72. Jess

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:00 pm

    Here you go you – another programme with Andrew Gillian from Channel four I believe on liquid bombs…

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-525011381725680397&ei=Gp_gSeO_OJKj-Abcw634CA&q=Panorama%2C+liquid+bomb+plot

    Why the hell would you not want the security services to stop them trying this and possibly killing many hundreds of people? What type of crazy people are you?

  73. Jess

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:06 pm

    Watch this space, Craig.

    Not that most will know about this – our crazy media laws again – but they are being re-tried on the air plane aspect of the plot at this very moment. I bet you anything they will be convicted too given how strong the evidence is….

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7605583.stm

    We will know within a couple of weeks

    I never said they had been convicted on that part of the plot, but they had been convicted on conspiracy to make explosions with liquid bombs. It’s semantics really; they were planning to blow up something with liquid bombs. That we certainly do know.

  74. Jess

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:09 pm

    Of course, if they had waited a few more weeks, as the British wanted, and they’d done it, then we would hear endless drivel about them allowing it to happen just so they could invade another country or something. It’s no win.

  75. Jaded

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:09 pm

    ‘Jaded, my point was that when a death occurs after a fall, it can be attributed to that fall (contrary to what the trolls are claiming about Tomlinson). Donald Dewar, then Scotland’s first minister, fell on the steps of his Edinburgh residence and reassured everyone he was fine, but soon became ill and died a few hours later. (He wasn’t surreptitiously assassinated by the establishment; nor was Lennie Bennett, for that matter.)’

    As I said, I knew little of Dewar’s death and didn’t think Bennett had been bumped off. :-) However, I did find it odd that within a year of Blair attending the 1993 Athens Bilderberg Conference he was leader of the Labour Party and PM 3 years after that. This couldn’t really have happened without Smith’s death, as his position wasn’t really threatened. Furthermore, Smith died the morning after he attended a banquet of 500 people apparently. Another case from history here:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_mcfadden

    Smith’s death passed without much question. As for Robin Cook, there are certainly a few people that have asked questions about it. Anyhow, short of those responsible, ‘if’ they were indeed bumped off, coming forward and saying ‘we did it’ we will never know for sure. What I would warn against is dismissing the whole idea that political assassinations have happened and will continue to happen in this country and other countries. You have to be openminded about it and look at each case individually. Furthermore, you don’t have to decide one way or another and say ‘I believe it’ or ‘I don’t believe it’. If you proceed with an open mind though you will, in my opinion, see enough to conclude that these things have happened. I hope no one has forgotten JFK! IF he had died of a ‘heart attack’ no one would have imagined he had been assassinated? Also, what about the whole spate of deaths in the Belgian Dutroux case? People were dropping dead like flies!Logistically, who or what could have been capable of orchestrating all that? Please, take time out to look at it and seriously think about it. 300,000 Belgians marched in Brussels for nothing? All loons? What about our own Jersey case that suddenly got dropped and buried?

    I repeat, a little known Brown attends the 1991 Baden-Baden Bilderberg Conference, as did a little known Bill Clinton. As did Blair as I have mentioned. As did George Robertson in 1998 before becoming head of NATO a year later. That’s just to name a few of the notable coincidences. My point is does anyone think that the power group behind all that, and that is naked power exposed, would hesitate to bump off the odd chap that stood in their way or threatened them? This thread is essentially about abuse of power so I hope to have not gone too far off topic. The world is murky and I feel Jaded.

  76. Jaded

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:25 pm

    Craig, Jessy will be taking you to a river soon to be rebaptised in his image. :-) You definitely seem to be on his conversion list… Eek.

  77. Jaded

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:34 pm

    Jessy is Jesus?

  78. Chris

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:49 pm

    Jess : “What type of crazy people are you?”

    The type that think rather than just accepting ludicrous, politically motivated rubbish that is trotted out with monotonous regularity every time our pathetic, shameful shower of a government wishes to bury an unfavourable story.

    Perhaps the kind that would rather hold the executive (and its agents in the mainstream media) to account for their atrocities.

    Or, perhaps just the kind that wish that trolls would go back to living under bridges.

    Now stop hyper-ventilating and wasting time here and get on with building the bunker you so obviously need to save you from the evil terrorists that seem to inhabit every aspect of your waking life.

  79. Anas Taunton

    11 Apr, 2009 - 3:54 pm

    The New Labour B-liars, who sloshed Al Qaida paint everywhere, are no longer safe inside their armoured car of spin. Craig and an army of dissenters have planted the equivalent of a roadside bomb, viz the truth, under British foreign policy, and New Labour is doomed for destruction.

    So what’s next? The Conservatives are still suffering from the Post Traumatic Shock Syndrome of their own backfired history of Market Economy deception. The system that has just been exposed as Banking fraud on a global scale. The Liberal leader couldn’t remember his lines when they asked him about pensions, so he’s not going to be trusted with the top PR job at No. 10.

    What worries me is that this blog which as seen above is tapping into many seams of public opinion, is missing that element of truth which is Islam. For that reason, and that reason only, I find it conceivable that Craig and people like him may soon be running the country. Our very own Obama, or better still our very own Martin Luther King.

    Sorry to say it but the grey suits that run this country will accept any shade of politics as a leader from yellow through to purple, that excludes Islam. That’s why the news is now and has been for centuries about Islam. This is my honest opinion, and my genuine prediction, but sorry, I’m not a betting man.

  80. anticant

    11 Apr, 2009 - 5:47 pm

    Anas, show me an Islamic country which allows free speech, tolerates political dissent, doesn’t persecute women, gays, and apostates,and treats ‘infidels’ as equal citizens, and I’ll show you a snowman in the Sahara.

  81. craig

    11 Apr, 2009 - 6:48 pm

    Jess

    I am watching. I am especially watching for a bomb or firearms, which as they were allegedly going to attack this weekend, must be around.

  82. Anonymous

    11 Apr, 2009 - 9:04 pm

  83. Jaded

    11 Apr, 2009 - 9:17 pm

    Jess – ‘It’s amazing that people will just read someone on a website and take that as fact, even though they haven’t seen anything about the case. Frightening.’

    Jessy, that’s the best point i’ve seen you make on this site. Keep it up! So everyone, it seems Jessy is exhorting all of us to critically question everything and make our own minds up. He also seems to be saying that we should spread that ethos to all our family, friends and acquaintances as well. Great advice. Bravo Jessy, bravo.

  84. fortuzero

    11 Apr, 2009 - 9:51 pm

    Interesting blog, Nobody. Dare I say, compelling.

    Oh and ‘Jess’… Do go away. Surely you’ve better things to do than spend all this time interacting with ‘loons’ and ‘conspiracy theorists’.

  85. Jaded

    11 Apr, 2009 - 10:28 pm

    Your jigsaw is pretty complete nobody. Impressive stuff. Focus solely on the Belgian case and all the ‘deaths’ if you want to wake people up. That’s my advice for what it is worth. That’s what opened my eyes and people can’t easily ignore that circus, if only they’d look. How many people got bumped off in all? Like 30 we know off? As Regina Louf said, ‘they all just seemed to ‘die”. Would be comical if it wasn’t so sick. Good luck with your blog.

  86. Anas Taunton

    12 Apr, 2009 - 12:28 am

    Anticant

    Yes that’s what the West has spent the last 1,400 of obscene military adventure achieving against the Muslim world. It will not be like that forever, whether you agree or don’t agree. The resilience of the superbug bacteria, as epitomised by Pope Anthony (Blair) and others whose high rank should not criticised by scum of the earth electricians like me, is only matched by the resilience of the Muslims in too many places to mention.

    Proxy Colonialism continues in Africa, to this country’s eternal shame. Proxy wars are the future under the likes of Obama. We pay Iran to oppress Sunni Islam and we glow in the glory of not being Islam’s enemy. It worries me about you and other contributors that they don’t understand these things, but I’m not worried about Islam because faith moves mountains and will prevail.

  87. Kerstin in Sweden

    12 Apr, 2009 - 12:48 am

    I am not very well acquainted with Brittish internal affairs, but I did hear Obama, the other day, state that the next big terrorist attack will come i Europe. I have also heard that he wants more European soldiers to Afghanistan (to bomb more weddings pehaps).

    A coincidence? May be, but If not, Brittain, and perhaps also other European countries, will soon send more soldiers to Afghanistan.

  88. nobody

    12 Apr, 2009 - 3:37 am

    Too kind by half, jaded and fortuzero. But bugger you two! How about that Jess, eh? His transparent disinfo aside, I was really taken by his argument pivoting on ‘What about the loved ones etc.’ Taken to it’s logical conclusion, we should never doubt the guilt of anyone accused, never mind tried and convicted, ever. (Hmm… someone get in touch with the Guildford Four etc. and tell them, “Sorry but on account of the loved ones of those who perished, it’s necessary you all go back to jail. Um… Jess said so. Take it up with him.”

    It also logically follows that the word ‘frame-up’ should be stricken from the dictionary. What about the loved ones! They’ve been told who dunnit and to suggest anything else is clearly inconsiderate to the point of callousness! Sorry – words in your mouth there Jess, but that’s the thrust of it isn’t it?

    As for your posited terrorist events, I could drive not just one semi-trailer, but a fleet of the damn things through each and every one of them.

    And as ‘loved ones’ go mate, you might want to get in touch with those relatives of those killed in 9/11 and who’ve declared that the government investigation was bullshit and that the real perpetrators remained unpunished, and tell them how inconsiderate they are.

    Otherwise, yeah, good point!

  89. Greengorilla47

    12 Apr, 2009 - 6:13 am

    @Anas Taunton

    While agreeing with most of what you say about Our Great Leader, Broon, I would wager that where foreign policy is concerned –and in this instance Afghanistan/Pakistan– he merely parrots what is expected of him by his US minders.

  90. Anas Taunton

    12 Apr, 2009 - 6:25 am

    Pieces of 8. Pieces of 8. Is that 8 carat gold or short for hate, he’s parroting, I wonder? No problem, Islam will prevail, Inshallah.

  91. anticant

    12 Apr, 2009 - 7:54 am

    Anas, there are no snowmen in the Sahara, and there are no remotely democratic Muslim countries. I challenged you to point to one and you couldn’t, so you fall back on parrot cries of “it will not be like that for ever”, “faith moves mountains”, and “Islam will prevail” blah blah blah.

    You are obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. What a pity you are also brainwashed by primitive religious twaddle.

  92. Cide Hamete Benengeli

    12 Apr, 2009 - 8:25 am

    The five countries with the largest Muslim populations[1] are Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, and Turkey. All of them hold regular elections where the winners are not known in advance, which is kind of the definition of a working democracy.

    [1] See for example http://islam.about.com/od/muslimcountries/a/population.htm

  93. nobody

    12 Apr, 2009 - 8:38 am

    In amongst all the piss-take, why have I never seen Gordon Brown referred to as Gordon Brown-Note?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note

    Honestly, it’s just too perfect! Surely I’m not the first to have thought of this? Regardless, I thus dub him – Gordon Brown-Note.

    “Arise, Sir He-who-makes-us-soil-our-trousers!

  94. anticant

    12 Apr, 2009 - 8:50 am

    The holding of elections does not of itself make a country democratic. Its respect – or lack of it – for basic human rights and freedoms of expression, worship and lifestyles does. I am not aware of any Muslim country which entrenches such freedoms in its constitution, or supports them in practice. The United Kingdom, lacking a written constitution, has become far less democratic during the past decade than it previously was, thanks to all the panicky and authoritarian “anti-terrorist” and “anti-hate speech” laws passed by the present government.

  95. George Dutton

    12 Apr, 2009 - 9:19 am

    From “Postman Patel” blog…

    APRIL 11, 2009

    “U.K. Police Seek Evidence to Back Arrests of Terror Suspects”

    “The U.K. government now is bracing for the possibility that it may not have enough evidence to prosecute most of the 12 people arrested, according to two people familiar with the matter.”…

    http://tinyurl.com/de5ge7

  96. fortuzero

    12 Apr, 2009 - 12:07 pm

    Nobody…very good (re:brown note)

    Of course, there’s also a ‘Brownout’, referring in the context of electricity to a near _loss of power_. Not quite what we are after, but surely analoguous to the position he is currently in!

    Not of course that it makes the blindest bit of difference which puppet is currently in post in this system. Something far more fundamental needs to change here.

  97. jives

    12 Apr, 2009 - 2:14 pm

    I dont believe this story.I dont believe the media.I dont believe NuLabour,I dont believe the War On Turr,Inc.

    Its all a spook spin job.

    No way would Quick have made this mistake and,if he had,the media/photo would’ve been immediately withdrawn by the powers that be.

    Its deliberate but i cant pretend to know what the real reasons for this rigged story are.

    Like so much of Spookdom,NuLabour and our current media its all smoke and mirrors.

    Believe nothing when it comes to this motley crew.

  98. Jaded

    12 Apr, 2009 - 3:25 pm

    ‘The holding of elections does not of itself make a country democratic.’

    The U.S. being a prime example! I would say U.S. ‘democracy’ hinges on the principle of ‘you can do what you like, as long as it doesn’t interfere with your masters’. That isn’t democracy! I feel like vomiting when I see Bush criticising countries on human rights. We should forget individual countries and philosophically posit features we would deem to be part of a flourishing democracy. Then, we could look at individual countries and see how many boxes get ticked with the features we have identified, or lack of. I don’t think too much ink would be used. I think the U.K. is pretty undemocratic and teetering on tyranny. Off hand, does anyone know who ‘officially’ makes the decisions on the daily BBC news agenda?

  99. aziz

    12 Apr, 2009 - 3:55 pm

    It is only logical when the politicians and in this case Brown and Smith are having a hard time, they create a situation to divert the attention to some thing else.

    And the media is too eager to oblige and do the dirty on their behalf. Just as before, these boys will be found guilty of some thing unrelated or not guilty at all. The press will not be queuing up to report that or will they ??? Previous experiences shows they will be missing from less glamorous un sensational reporting. The DULL politicians will have won again and will keep chipping away at our civil liberties to suit their purposes.

  100. anticant

    12 Apr, 2009 - 5:31 pm

    Most Americans have little, if any, understanding of European politics. In ‘Matters of Fact and Fiction’, published in 1978, Gore Vidal said that

    “there is only one party in the United States, the Property Party…and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt?”until recently… and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties.”

  101. wendy mann

    12 Apr, 2009 - 8:25 pm

    Jess at April 11, 2009 3:06 PM

    THE RETRIAL WAS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT LOST FACE .. OF COURSE IT WILL TRY TO ENSURE CONVICTION SECOND TIME AROUND thats how a ‘real democracy’ and ‘due process’ works..

    the fact is the evidence was poor, the over dramatisation for us telly viewers was more of a propaganda campaign than the reality of what is possible with liquid bombs.

    anyway this is of more importance and links up directly with the current pr campaign that has now gone flat :

    “I listened to the anger and pain over the challenges that young people growing up in Pakistan face, including the anger and frustration over US drone attacks,” he said.

    The attacks by unmanned US drones have provoked fury in Pakistan, where scores of militants have been killed in the country’s remote border regions, along with innocent civilians.

    “The anger and frustration at the drone attacks was huge,” Khan said. “The view they [the students] had was that the UK was somehow responsible for this. They haven’t understood this was purely a US matter. They lumped us together with the US, which to me is a poison. It demonstrates to me we have a big problem.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/apr/12/foreign-affairs-pakistan-drone-raids

  102. Anas Taunton

    12 Apr, 2009 - 9:37 pm

    Anticant

    sausagerolls. that’s when you put tasteless, greasy, coloured offal from pork inside nice hot pastry. I think your adjective ‘primitive’ belongs in the sequence fanatic, extremist, terrorist etc. But thoughtful, yes I think God gaves us the capacity to think and we are expected to use it, even about Him.

  103. Anas Taunton

    12 Apr, 2009 - 11:41 pm

    wendy mann

    Sadiq Khan, Social Cohesion Minister, means New Labour copy Obama we’re not against Muslims spin doctor. The British invented the hypocrisy of Colonialism, which was different from Imperialism because of its vile use of lies and spin. The UK has been a leading consultant to the US on the ‘war on terror’ policy and tactics and would like this not to be understood or known.

    The fact that a ‘Muslim’ is calling for the spin to be reinforced rather than UK policy to change just shows that in this country anyone can rise to power and fortune, if they totally toe the line. Craig doesn’t really like divine scriptures on his blog, but the theme of selling your next life in exchange for your worldly one, comes to mind.

  104. Sam

    14 Apr, 2009 - 11:27 am

  105. Ken Hall

    14 Apr, 2009 - 1:42 pm

    “They may have foiled a genuine plot here. If so they must be congratulated.”

    Yes according to the Sun, the police have managed to confiscate bomb making materials.

    Back in the real world, that REALLY means that the police have saved us from Pakistani students having possession of a few small sachets of SUGAR!

  106. susan

    14 Apr, 2009 - 1:49 pm

    I bet you have photographs of bars. They may not be doing it for the same reason as you though.

  107. Ken Hall

    14 Apr, 2009 - 2:16 pm

    I do not know what door people use to enter Downing Street, but I do know that documents marked secret and above should be double enveloped and an officer of the seniority and experience of this officer would have known NOT to expose a secret document in any public location.

    There is NO WAY that this was a thoughtless accident. This was an imprisonable offence that was committed.

  108. Tommy

    14 Apr, 2009 - 2:26 pm

    Jess,

    In the first trial of the Liquid bomb (airline) plot conspiracy, the person touted as the ‘key’ ‘ringleader’ (Mohammed Gulzar) was acquitted of all charges and was formally discharged at the conclusion of Trial No. 1 (April 08 ?” September 08). Three of the original 21 persons arrested (Abdullah Ali, Assad Sarwar,, and Tanvir Hussain) _admitted_(plea-bargained) conspiracy to cause explosions likely to endanger life, but the jury was unable to reach verdicts on a second charge of conspiracy to murder by blowing up passenger jets.

    With regard to the ‘fertiliser conspiracy’, the ‘plotters’ were convicted using the testimony of (overworked) ‘Al Queda supergrass’ _Mohammed Junaid Babar_ & the testimonial evidence (obtained from the torture of Amin in Pakistan, under the knowledge of the UK spooks) of _Salahuddin Amin_.

  109. Jon

    14 Apr, 2009 - 11:58 pm

    Anas Taunton – it seems to me that you refer to articles and items of your faith as truths we all need to accept, rather than beliefs you have chosen and that you have no wish to force on anyone. Do you really think that Craig’s logical and secular reasoning is “missing that element of truth which is Islam”?

    I note you say “[the situation of Islamic countries] will not be like that forever” and “Islam will prevail”. Do you mean this in terms of superiority of strength? Forgive me if I am jumping the gun, but it sounds here like you are advocating for Islam to be forced on people en masse who don’t want it.

  110. Peter Owen

    15 Apr, 2009 - 11:13 pm

    well done wendy mann you managed to avoid criticsing all of the 7/7 9 11 bali bombers etc and still your trying to make the moral high ground :)

    ps kerstin care to tell me who did 9/11 then?

    it wasn;t the terrorists who were videod entering the planes and who had left sucidide videos , it wasn;t the planes flying directly into the buildings that we all saw on tv?

    no it was nothing to do with them was it?

    You make jack , from the beanstalk fairy tale seem switched on and informed ;)

  111. Peter Owen

    15 Apr, 2009 - 11:27 pm

    Sorry Kerstin my post should not have been aimed at you

    But it was a reply to the poster who claimed to be able to drive a load of semi trailers through all of the terroist acts i mentioned

    Clearly he is well enough informed to have a better insight than the security services in all of the above countries but can only type nobody for his name on an internet blog!

    Nice to see such modesty in the modern world :)

  112. Jaded

    17 Apr, 2009 - 4:10 pm

    ‘Nice to see such modesty in the modern world :)

    Ditto…

  113. Iftikhar Ahmad

    22 Apr, 2009 - 5:39 pm

    Salaam

    There is no difference between the policies of BNP, Tory or Labour, as far as Muslim community is concerned.

    Muslim community has been victim of racism and discrimination for the last 60 years by the British society in every walk of life. The situation has gone from bad to worse.

    Now Muslim community is vicitm of terrorism. Thousands of Muslim youths are being searched in streets for no reason and hundreds of them are behind the bar without any trial. British prisons are the training grounds for criminals and when they leave prisons there is a possibility that they would committ some kind of terrorist activities. There is a growing sense of alienation and insecurity among Muslim youths across Britain, inspite of two Muslim ministers, couple of MPs and Lords, an army of local councillors and a jungle of state funded Muslim organisations and so called Muslim leaders. They are the “show boys” of the British Establishment. None of them represents the needs and demands of the diverse Muslim community.

    Recently, Pakistani students were detained on terrorism chages by the police. Their arrest will lead to more scare-mongering.They were convicted even before trial. Gordon Brown said the arrests could have foiled a “very big terrorist plot”. The arrests have quickly led to accusations against Pakistan for not doing enough in the fight against terror. Gordon Brown also believes that there are links between terrorists in Britain and terrorists in Pakistan. Pakistan has become the nexus of terrorism within the media, much of western think-tanks and government circles. Police could not find any thing suspicious. Britain had given Pakstan no evidence against them. Now they are going to be deported to cover up blunders and mistakes because of lack of evidence. Gordon Brown should tender an apology and they should be compensated and should be allowed to continye their education for better community relations and cohesion.

    Iftikhar Ahmad

    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

  114. Terry Wagar

    12 May, 2009 - 10:12 pm

    Eric Carlson and Joan Wagar, A,K,A, Doubleclick and Mrs Dash,( yes those are there nicknames they gave each other.) admitted to poisoning me while I was a plasma donor back in 2005.

    Eric Carlson pedofied me behind prison walls and then framed me as a pedophile on march 26th 2007, I caught the crime on a audio recorder I put in Joan’s purse.

    there were people in authority helping them with this and nobody in authority will help they pretend nothing happened and refuse to investigate this.

    Eric Carlson changed his hair color and his name to Gashel and Clackamas Walmart was hiding him from my Family by pretending He’s someone else but this is not hidden, only ignored by the authority’s and media

    I’m disabled from being poisoned and the hospitals refuse to admit I’m poisoned.

    My Family is in danger from these people and I have no other recourse but to make these charges public.

    My name is Terry Wagar,Im from Portland Oregon and I’m backing up these charges.

    I have been threatened with harassment charges by a Sargent Walker, She is a Portland Police officer stationed at the OHSU hospital, for the non crime of reporting a multi murder conspiracy within that hospital.

    They dont give a s4!t Joan and Eric was poisoning a plasma donor!

    And how many god damn John Ray’s in authority are there in portland oregon!

    You damn serial killer.

    Where did Mrs Dash keep her stash? in A Garlic Salt Shaker!

    What did Doubleclick do with his Dick? You Pedo!

    Why you hiding A body double for Clackamas Walmart?

    Cover this up Sgt Walker!

    We have our Witch hunts right here in Portland Oregon, and they use it to justify murder.

    The Authority’s call it “Pedofied” it means they just run around spreading rumors about someone they want dead, they label that person A pedophile, turning hundreds of people against that person overnight.

    It makes it easy to get volunteer’s to lie for them so they can murder off that person.

    And no one complains, thinking to themselves “One less pedophile to worry about.

    http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2009/04/390861.shtml

    It’s A great responsibility to report A crime the Authority’s don’t want reported!

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