A grim subject, but your description of Gordon Brown is the funniest thing I have read about him yet.

How would the west react to China, if the latter stormed through NK and seized the country right down to the 38th parallel?

Let's not forget that there has been only one nation that has used nuclear bombs on a civilian population... Want to talk about madmen... talk about them.

Craig,

Edo is right. It would be far more effective, and humane for the US, to engage with Korea in a pacific and respectful way rather than to continue with the current policy or taking up your suggestion of starving millions of people to death.

Some informed reports say that Saddam was given a 'wink and a nod' prior to his 1992 invasion of Kuwait by the regime of George Bush (senior). He had been installed by the USA and had dutifully started the Iran/Iraq war by attacking his neighbour. US?UK had been expelled fromIran in 1989 so a little destabilisation was highly desirable at that time.

We should worry about North Korea.

But surely no country is really lunatic when it comes to gratuitously inviting their own complete annihilation.

A question occurs. The western banking system is literally bankrupt. It is surviving by creating a massive 'money-printing' bubble, much bigger than the dot-com and housing bubbles. This bubble is sure to burst with catastrophic consequences for western global influence. Wars have often been engineered by financial powers as a way of reflating their evil system.

Why would N. Korea behave so stupidly?

Here's the question.

Has someone given them a green light to go ahead with this madness?

Pay close attention to the minutiae of diplomatic exchanges. Watch out for whistleblowers. Do not allow our own media to get away with stirring things up by using bellicose language.

Paranoid?

You bet.

Completely true about Trident - it's pointless. We have NATO and yet 3 independant nuclear states - it's mental. Save the £20 billion (ish) (although i've heard figures of £100 billion for the full life cycle). Soooo, why don't we go halves with the French?

Ok - probably a daft idea but considering the NATO treaty is like the 3 Muskateers and that - can we not just drop them for a bit? When we get some cash buy them perhaps but in the meantime spend the wedge on aircraft carriers, tanks, decent homes & equipment etc. Hmm..nurse, nurse

Reuters seems to be the only western news-agency to have carried the NORK's statement warning of the possibility of this latest test. Would it have happened if the Security Council was not pressed so often to apply sanctions left right and centre?

SEOUL, April 29 (Reuters) - Following is a full text of the English-language report on North Korea's KCNA news agency on Wednesday threatening to conduct a second nuclear test:

"A spokesman for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea Foreign Ministry issued a statement today as regards the fact that the hostile forces' vicious moves against the DPRK over its satellite launch for peaceful purposes have reached the extremely dangerous phase.

"In accordance with its 'presidential statement' which has no binding force, on April 24 the UNSC officially designated three companies of the DPRK (North Korea) as targets of sanctions and many kinds of military supplies and materials as embargo items over the DPRK's peaceful satellite launch, a DPRK's exercise of sovereignty, and thus committed such illegal provocations as setting in motion its sanctions on the DPRK, the statement notes, and says:

"Such sanctions can never work on the DPRK which has been subject to all sorts of sanctions and blockade by the hostile forces for the past scores of years.

"What is serious is the fact that the UNSC has set out in directly jeopardizing the security of the country and the nation, the supreme interests of the DPRK, though it had already wantonly infringed the sovereignty of a sovereign state, pursuant to the U.S. moves.

"The hostile forces are foolishly scheming to suffocate the DPRK's defence industry by physical methods as they failed to attain their aims for disarming the DPRK through the six-way talks.

"In the 1990s the DPRK already declared that any anti-DPRK sanctions to be put by the United Nations, a legal party to the Korean Armistice Agreement, would be regarded as a termination of the agreement, that is, a declaration of war.

"The desire for denuclearisation of the Korean peninsula has gone forever with the six-way talks and the situation is inching to the brink of war by the hostile forces. The DPRK Ministry of Foreign Affairs solemnly gives the following warnings to cope with such grave situation:

"The UNSC should promptly make an apology for having infringed the sovereignty of the DPRK and withdraw all its unreasonable and discriminative 'resolutions' and decisions adopted against the DPRK.

"This is the only way for it to regain confidence of the UN member nations and fulfil its responsibility for maintaining international peace and security, not serving as a tool for the U.S. highhanded and arbitrary practices any longer.

"In case the UNSC does not make an immediate apology, such actions will be taken as:

"Firstly, the DPRK will be compelled to take additional self-defensive measures in order to defend its supreme interests.

"The measures will include nuclear tests and test-firings of intercontinental ballistic missiles.

"Secondly, the DPRK will make a decision to build a light water reactor power plant and start the technological development for ensuring self-production of nuclear fuel as its first process without delay."

very good resumee Craig, but Giro has a point as well.
What would the US do if China walks into NK?, a vastly more preferable scenario than the one were the dear leader dies and his son takes over supported by a military junta of sorts, smarting to go to war.

If a conventional war takes place, imho a far more likely scenario than a nuclear exchange, as the weapon systems ammassed at the border make this the first strike weapons. Starving North Koreans would move north into China in their millions, something China could not stomach and fears, as it might even further destabilise their own country, next to all the different fronts they already are subjected to.

Then there is the scenario that plays this into the long grass, western concessions for time by sending more food and oil to stave off the inevitable.
Such scenario would entice Japan, who must see it all coming and is especially hated by the NK regime, to develop its own nuclear weapons. Truth be said, I believe that Japan, under the strictest cecrecy, might have already gone along this route and developed a capacity, I would not at all be surprised given their usual nous and forward thinking, despite their international anti nuclear stance.

Now such a development would pitch China and japan against each other and disputed areas like the South China sea islets or some hasty diplomatic ties with Taiwan would be like a match to a tinderbox, setting the south east alight, a ww3 scenario in the making.

For my money I prefer China walking into NK, ideally with our canivance and the explicit arrangement of withdrawl after a democratic regime had been established, I am sure our mongers who took us into Iraq under false premises would agree to such a scenario, what do others think?

Simon, Johan,

Yes, populations can indeed invite self-annihilation. Nazi Germany plainly did. The sad truth is, that you do get regimes which are, for want of a better word, evil. Pol Pot, Hitler etc. This is just one of them. Of course it is always better to talk and keep inviting rational behaviour. But do not fall into a delusion. And Simon, frankly that ridiculous propaganda blaming the UN is only of interest to academics studying a bizarre regime.

KevinB, I have said before that you veer between the rational and the clinically fixated. No, nobody has tipped any green light to North Korea in the interests of a cabal of bankers.

I am a very intellectually open person, but your inclination to see the same forces behind everything that happens in the world is not interesting. You could make a fortune writing Dan Brown type novels.

I visited North Korea years ago as part of an humanitarian delegation to discuss aid shipments.
My impressions were that the people there were completely brainwashed by this nutter in charge.
When I explained that I was from the UK to our 'official guide', I recieved a 5 minuite lecture on the failures of my country as it seemed we were still forcing children to sweep out chimneys, and the state of our orphans in institutions.
When I questioned her as to the source of this information, she informed me she had read a recently published book reflecting the state of Britain today, entitled, yup you guessed, Oliver Twist.

Frazer - only 5 minutes - if you went back there now I'd have thought 30 minutes would be brief.

But surely mein friends, you haf die solution right before you. You haf a new improved Trident here und a godless Communist regime there. Die solution is obvious to anyvun mit a drop of common sense. Ka-Boom! Flatten dem mit your Trident und vipe out die evil of Communism for ever!

oops forgot trident, but thats exactly it, it needs forgetting about due to its limited military use.
The reliance on mutual assured destruction NATO so valued during the cold war, was never a credible scenario either, nuclear warfare does not square with just and democratic living. In a case of NK its use would merely disturb the neighbours something rotten.

As for targetting, what targeting are all nuclear missiles subjected to in our current wobbly peacetime?
Cosmic top secret documents used to play on scenarios but today, when scenarios can develop ad hoc, who is doing the targetting and where is the Force de Frappe pointing its once easterly directed shiny penisses now? never mind trident or minutemen.

We can allocate these sixty billions over 40 years to far better purposes than on wasted bangs and self obliteration, I fully agree with your assessment.

Craig -

"If we had let large numbers of North Koreans starve to death, at some stage - and I realise a very late stage - the remnant would realise the regime wasn't doing such a good job after all and string the Dear Leader up."

I'm not sure historical precedents allow us to predict that stringing-up with much confidence.

Stalin survived the great Soviet famine of 1932-3, unstrung-up.

Mao sauntered through the Great Leap Forward and associated famine, unstrung-up.

Hitler stuck it out until the Red Army was in Berlin, unstrung-up.

Saddam sat out 13 years of sanctions, unstrung-up.

Famine, whether internally or externally imposed, doesn't have a great track record as an agent of regime change.

There is also evidence the other way. The French Revolution was famously caused by famine. 1848 and 1917 followed demonstrably bad harvests. Agree it might not work. But propping up the regime with food aid didn't work either.

Craig

Surely the purpose of Trident is not to act as a military deterrent but:

* to make enormous profits for the arms industry?
* to let our politicians bask in the delusion that the UK is a "World Power"
* to let our military chiefs have some new toys

BTW, my guess of the states which are the least unlikely to use nuclear weapons are in order:-

Israel
Pakistan
USA
India
China
Russia
North Korea

You've probably all seen it, several times now, but a discussion of the value of a nuclear deterrent is not complete without a link to the following five minutes of the first episode of Yes Prime Minister:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE

"It may soon possess a very small number of low quality nuclear missiles, but is potentially mad enough to use them"

Disagree. In over fifty years since the Korean war, N Korea has attacked no-one. It is the only country on JDM's list above (which should include the UK somewhere) of whom that can be said.

N Korea plays the global chess game and, though from a position of great weakness, plays it rather well. I recall that in the run up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 N Korea coolly announced that it would attack the US if it were threatened. The response from Washington was telling: it briefly stopped sounding like a playground bully and its language became diplomatic, statesmanlike even.

Only a few months ago N Korea agreed to cease its nuclear activities in return for a generous aid package. Less than a week later it announced it was recommencing its nuclear programme. Washington did nothing.

N Korea knows how to play the nuclear game to earn respect and deter intervention. If it actually used its military power it would lose everything.

Et tu Craig?

After interdicting/preventing my last post on the Israel thread from getting published, now you are taking the weak and stale arguments forwarded, by the same culprits whom having used biological/chemical weapons, and the same bunch of crazed lunatics whom were getting ready to use nuclear weapons to “stem” the advancing of the tide of pinko communistic comrades.

http://tinyurl.com/preott

Fact that it is easy to demonize the victims of a sustained aggression at the hands of a demented and overbearing bunch of power brokers half a century later, is only a testament to the bastardised sense of justice, and fair play that has come to symbolize human kinds' transactions circa twenty/first century. Ignorance is no defence when it comes to upholding the traditions of the criminalization of; we the people, yet the same ignorance is taken advantage of, for reasons of the continuation of the crazed, and stupid policies of the mad men passed.

Noting that;

A- DPRK under sanctions, and a constant regiment of aggression, could only have hung onto its territorial integrity through adopting her current; total defensive posture, and self reliance.

B- Fact that memories of mass killings and mass burials of Koreans during the war, results of the “UN” forces' use of chemical/biological weapons may not have dawned on the standard issue Westerner, however this aspect matters naught, because those memories are imprinted into the memories of the population of DPRK.

C- Without the outside help, and through their own efforts DPRK have managed to construct their own Nuclear bomb, which evidently is not small enough to be lobbed at the all and sundry around the globe, yet good enough deterrent for anyone deciding to play the sheriff of the planet and start asking the DPRK to pay fealty and if not the dominant bully to start to intercept her ships, and cause general disruption for whatever trade or commerce the unfortunates in DPRK may still have access to.

Whereas;

Given such threats, and fact that military expenditure has been at the expense of all else for the population of the DPRK has been direct results of the policies of those outsiders whom find militarisation and trade in death, as the only viable and profitable trade to be in, regardless of how, the monies are spent, and where are these spent monies ending up at? Alas these lines of thinking never entertained the elegant conclusion of any such policies to the current and tense stand off.

Your contention is;

The “aid” ought not have been extended to DPRK, which would have resulted in deaths of millions of deaths in the DPRK, with a view to getting the population to rise up and change their own government. This Malthusian line of thinking is exactly the sought after riposte to the current crisis. This kind of broken eggs and omelette argument foregoes the simple facts;

1- why on Earth the Korean Peninsula conflict nearly sixty years later still hot?

2- why on Earth to date seventy years after WWII, Germany is still under occupation? (why the basis, for men and equipment, and the rules thereof?)

3- why on Earth, the constant projection of “kinetic power” to four corners of the planet, and an ongoing state of never ending crisis? (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Palestine, Lebanon, Africa, etc.)

Therefore, to pontificate even more mayhem and murder, would be only playing an all too familiar hand, how about:

1- Giving DPRK a UN membership? (I bet not many of you know that DPRK has no membership in the UN, yet is expected to be abiding by the rulings of it's Security Council)

http://tinyurl.com/omb8yz

2- Recognising that all the peoples of world have an inalienable right to determine their own destiny, and self rule without interference, or intervention from US, and UK (her fawning toady)?

3- As Lavarov warns; do not fan the flames of war! (this time the “bad” guys have teeth, and they will bite too.)

Finally;

World ought to take heed of Lavarov and start looking for a solution that does not box an already boxed and ravaged group of people runing scared for the last fifty years. It is time that negotiations meant to be negotiations, not a tactic to stall the progress of one side ie DPRK with a view to initiation of war by the other side ie. The US, at a time and choosing of the dominant bully.

As far as I am aware...

The UK cannot fire the Trident missiles it doesn`t have the codes to fire them.It must ask permission from the USA government to gain access to the codes?.

The UK may be able to break the codes and fire the missiles independently but that would be of no use as to deliver the missiles to their target you need a delivery system which the USA controls.

I know that with Trident 1 when the missiles had to be serviced the USA would NOT let the UK do it. The UK crew were ordered off the subs and US personnel done it at a US base in the USA or many years ago at a UK base.

Trident 1 and 2 are a total waste off money and to use them would require the insanity of someone like Thatcher.It all begs the question WHY is the UK paying/paid all this money for Trident?.I wonder if there are nuclear warheads on Trident? how would we know?.All an elaborate game to help keep the military industrial complex going?.

Craig -

"The problem with deterrence theory is that you cannot deter a madman, particularly one who is going to die very soon anyway and may think a mass immolation sounds glorious."

Perhaps it is true that you cannot deter a complete madman, in the sense of someone with no understanding at all that actions have consequences. But I'm not sure that Kim Jong-il is a complete madman in that sense. True, I've not met the man personally, so I am guessing a bit - but let's look at what has happened and try to use that to get some insight into the Great Leader's state of mind.

If he wanted to inflict great damage upon his enemies, whatever the cost, he could and would already have done so. He could have launched his artillery on Seoul; he could have sent a million soldiers over the border; he could, for all I know, have used biological or chemical weapons against the South.

But he hasn't done any of these things. Why not? Two possible answers present themselves.

1. For all his posturing, he doesn't actually want to inflict great damage upon his enemies.

2. He is afraid of the consequences. "Madman" or not, he realises that the consequences of an attack on the South would be massive retaliation by the United States and others, possibly including nuclear attack on the North.

I don't know which of these two is actually the case. Perhaps it's some combination.

But let's assume that it's more (2) than (1). It seems to me then that, at least to some extent, you CAN deter a "madman". It is precisely that, deterrence, both nuclear and conventional, which have dissuaded Kim from launching an attack.

You say Kim "may think a mass immolation sounds glorious". Come on, this guy likes pretty girls, watching DVDs, eating gourmet good, and playing golf. He's got a lifestyle to protect. He's never been a soldier, he's grown fat on peace. When he tests his bombs and his missiles, he's showing off his toys, he's attention-seeking, he wants people to take him seriously, he wants people to know that he's the Man.

But he wants to keep his DVDs, too. And he is sane enough to realise that, thanks to deterrence, he can EITHER fire his nukes, OR keep his DVDs. But not both.

I'm betting he'll stick with his DVDs. And I hope to god I'm right.

Vamanos Bandidos

Just to say I don't think I suppressed any of your comments. I almost never do, and try always to say so if I do.

Your attempt to glamorise plucky little North Korea is stupid. it is a completely appalling regime with a disastrous human rights record and a zombified population brainwashed by the personality cult.

There are sections of the left who can see now rong in anybody, as long as they are anti-American. Yes the situation arises as a consequence of cold war conflict. But that does not justify tyranny nor the infliction of abject poverty on a nation. It is the North Korean regime which causes that poverty, not the USA.

But what about the billions of Faslane shopkeepers whose livelihoods depend on WMD?

Obviously, rich and powerful people throughout history have never colluded behind the scenes to instigate world events that increase their power and wealth. It was all just an endless series of unfortunate accidents and coincidences.

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Craig well said. Isn't it a strange world where the public is in a lynch mood over MP expenses, yet millions starve and die in Darfur, N Korea, Zimbabwe etc and the public response is...nil. You are right that many on the far left are interested only in blaming everything on the USA and the West and if there is no culpability in that direction then there is no interest. Sri Lanka is a good example. The moral compass of these people is seriously awry. This video of a girl being flogged by the taliban is a case in point. I am sure many on these boards will blame the nasty USA for this scene. I don't, I blame the Taliban. Full stop.

http://www.spittoon.org/archives/498

Craig,

You seem to think I believe in a fantasy because it pleases me to do so.

You find this perspective 'boring'.

You mention Hitler yet you seem to be ignorant of the facts. Global conflicts, though they can obviously go awry for participants are highly orchestrated.

Throughout his rise to power Hitler was funded by Wall Street bankers.

http://www.thehiddenevil.com/nazis.asp

The Communist revolution in Russia was also funded by western capital.

If this has definitely happened before (and it has.....and in many other scenarios), excuse me please for pointing out the POSSIBILITY that it is happening again....

....or are we bound, like the fucking idiots we are, to accept the mainstream medias lying version of everything that is stuck in our moronic faces.

eddie: it's perhaps not that strange. It's probably related to 1) the level of media exposure and 2) the extent to which we feel we can do something about it. N Korea and Zimbabwe are closed societies to the West - journalists are not allowed in - so little real news ends up on the telly. Events in Darfur are complex, part of global geopolitics, and we are only fed scraps. But we've had wall-to-wall exposure of the expenses scandal and we feel it's within our power to do something about it, so bingo!

The public response to famine in Africa in the mid-80s was huge, but again it got daily media coverage and, thanks to Geldof et al we felt we could do something about it.

Speaking of moral compasses gone awry eddie, I find your myopic fascination with Islamophobic videos rather worrying.

KevinB:

"Throughout his rise to power Hitler was funded by Wall Street bankers".

True. Not to mention several million quids worth of Czech gold handed to him on a plate by the Rothschild-controlled Bank of England after his invasion.

KevinB

No. you're not. And while I don't agree with you on this one and my style is to argue robustly, please don't think I don't value your being here.

Question: What evidence is there exactly to suggest NK are "mad"?

E.g. from what I can tell, it was the USA which brought nuclear weapons to the peninsula, over 30 years ago, much to NKs protestations. NKs subsequent development of nuclears weapons seems then to follow the 'rational' path of an arms-race between hostile nations. NKs hostility towards SK (which has not exactly been a democratic paradise, up until not so long ago) is also somewhat rational, in the context of the cold war.

I strongly fear that this seemingly baseless meme, of NK being led by mad-men, may lead us into very poor decisions...

MJ - journalist weren't allowed into Gaza either and yet you had plenty to say on THAT subject. It shows you up frankly. And perhaps you could tell me why the video is "Islamophobic"? It is from an Islamic website. If I put up a video of a fundamentalist Christian flogging a young girl would that be Christian-phobic? Please think before you write such dire nonsense. Is the Pakistani army "Islamophobic" for fighting agains the Taliban in the Swat valley? Perhaps the truth is that the government of Pakistan has finally realised that it is hosting a medievalist, fascistic grouping on its territory. You and KevinB seem to be blood brothers or sisters in your racist, anti-Semitic fantasies about dark forces and conspiracies. Time to grow up.

eddie:

"journalist weren't allowed into Gaza either"

True, but there was a lot of media coverage because a lot of news nevertheless got out.

My point was that you provide links only to videos that show Islam in a bad light. If you have any anti-Christian ones stashed away you never tell us about them.

"It is from an Islamic website"

Self-hating Muslims no doubt, so best pretend they don't exist eddie.

When have I ever said anything that was anti-Jewish or racist in any way? I am neither of things and rather object to the accusation.

Pointing out that the Bank of England gave several million pounds-worth of Czech gold to Hitler has nothing to do with "dark forces and conspiracies" and rather a lot to do with historical fact.

MJ - "A lot of news got out" - nonsense. No independent journalists got into Gaza. Don't you remember Jeremy Bowen standing on the border? Any news was heavily censored by both sides, so how was it that you were able to reach such precise conclusions about what was happening in Gaza and yet not about Darfur or North Korea? The truth is that you aren't bothered about human suffering in those places. You are only interested in human suffering that fits in with your world view about the USA being the root of all evil and of "dark forces" controlling power politics.

I will happily post videos showing a group of Christians flogging a young girl, but I am afraid I have yet to find them. If you can, please do tell me. To post such a video would not be "anti-Christian" it would be "anti-a group of men flogging a young girl". I hope you can understand the distinction but perhaps your moral and ethical bias has blinded you to fundamental issues of right and wrong.

"Self hating muslims" - oh dear, would that be like the self-hating Jews that you get so agitated about? Perhaps they are actually Muslims who don't like seeing young girls being flogged by a group of men, or do you think there are no decent Muslims?

Your comment "Rothschild controlled bank of england" speaks volumes and tells me all I need to know about your view of Jewish people and Jewish financiers. It would not be out of place in a BNP leaflet. The libel that the Jews were somehow involved in their own fate in the Holocauset is the biggest blood libel of all.

Thanks Craig,

It's not really about 'bankers' as such.

It is about getting people to recognise the fact that we are all being manipulated by an elite whose agenda is the advancement of their own, not our, interests.

I believe this elite enjoy their influence because of a great error that decent peoples have allowed to be inflicted on them.

We have allowed privately owned corporations to create our money for us and charge us interest for the privilege of doing so.

This was and remains a catastrophic error. The 'elite' whoever they are, enjoy the power this system affords them.

If we remove this power, their ludicrous power and wealth will automatically fall away and we stand some chance of creating a decent world for our children to grow old in.

If we allow this system to continue I believe that whatever else we do, we will remain slaves of debt (which most of us already are) and subject to the whims of (let's look at history and not mince our words) a truly evil bunch of self-serving sh*tbags.

So, for instance, the 'MP's expenses' scandal might be diverting and instructive.....but it is not important.

John Pilger published an excellent article today about our political system. Here it is:

Britain: the depth of corruption
John Pilger – May 28, 2009

The theft of public money by members of parliament, including government ministers, has given Britons a rare glimpse inside the tent of power and privilege. It is rare because not one political reporter or commentator, those who fill tombstones of column inches and dominate broadcast journalism, revealed a shred of this scandal. It was left to a public relations man to sell the “leak”. Why?

The answer lies in a deeper corruption, which tales of tax evasion and phantom mortgages touch upon but also conceal. Since Margaret Thatcher, British parliamentary democracy has been progressively destroyed as the two main parties have converged into a single-ideology business state, each with almost identical social, economic and foreign policies. This “project” was completed by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, inspired by the political monoculture of the United States. That so many Labour and Tory politicians are now revealed as personally crooked is no more than a metaphor for the anti-democratic system they have forged together.

Their accomplices have been those journalists who report Parliament as "lobby correspondents" and their editors, who have “played the game” wilfully, and have deluded the public (and sometimes themselves) that vital, democratic differences exist between the parties. Media-designed opinion polls based on absurdly small samplings, along with a tsunami of comment on personalities and their specious crises, have reduced the “national conversation” to a series of media events, in which the withdrawal of popular consent – as the historically low electoral turnouts under Blair demonstrated – has been abused as apathy.

Having fixed the boundaries of political debate and possibility, self-important paladins, notably liberals, promoted the naked emperor Blair and championed his “values” that would allow “the mind [to] range in search of a better Britain”. And when the bloodstains showed, they ran for cover. All of it had been, as Larry David once described an erstwhile crony, “a babbling brook of bullshit”.

How contrite their former heroes now seem. On 17 May, the Leader of the House of Commons, Harriet Harman, who is alleged to have spent £10,000 of taxpayers’ money on “media training”, called on MPs to “rebuild cross-party trust”. The unintended irony of her words recalls one of her first acts as social security secretary more than a decade ago – cutting the benefits of single mothers. This was spun and reported as if there was a “revolt” among Labour backbenchers, which was false. None of Blair’s new female MPs, who had been elected “to end male-dominated, Conservative policies”, spoke up against this attack on the poorest of poor women. All voted for it.

The same was true of the lawless attack on Iraq in 2003, behind which the cross-party Establishment and the political media rallied. Andrew Marr stood in Downing Street and excitedly told BBC viewers that Blair had “said they would be able to take Baghdad without a bloodbath, and that in the end the Iraqis would be celebrating. And on both of those points he has been proved conclusively right.” When Blair’s army finally retreated from Basra in May, it left behind, according to scholarly estimates, more than a million people dead, a majority of stricken, sick children, a contaminated water supply, a crippled energy grid and four million refugees.

As for the “celebrating” Iraqis, the vast majority, say Whitehall’s own surveys, want the invader out. And when Blair finally departed the House of Commons, MPs gave him a standing ovation – they who had refused to hold a vote on his criminal invasion or even to set up an inquiry into its lies, which almost three-quarters of the British population wanted.

Such venality goes far beyond the greed of the uppity Hazel Blears.

“Normalising the unthinkable”, Edward Herman’s phrase from his essay The Banality of Evil, about the division of labour in state crime, is applicable here. On 18 May, the Guardian devoted the top of one page to a report headlined, “Blair awarded $1m prize for international relations work”. This prize, announced in Israel soon after the Gaza massacre, was for his “cultural and social impact on the world”. You looked in vain for evidence of a spoof or some recognition of the truth. Instead, there was his “optimism about the chance of bringing peace” and his work “designed to forge peace”.

This was the same Blair who committed the same crime – deliberately planning the invasion of a country, “the supreme international crime” – for which the Nazi foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop was hanged at Nuremberg after proof of his guilt was located in German cabinet documents. Last February, Britain’s “Justice” Secretary, Jack Straw, blocked publication of crucial cabinet minutes from March 2003 about the planning of the invasion of Iraq, even though the Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas, has ordered their release. For Blair, the unthinkable is both normalised and celebrated.

“How our corrupt MPs are playing into the hands of extremists,” said the cover of last week’s New Statesman. But is not their support for the epic crime in Iraq already extremism? And for the murderous imperial adventure in Afghanistan? And for the government’s collusion with torture?

It is as if our public language has finally become Orwellian. Using totalitarian laws approved by a majority of MPs, the police have set up secretive units to combat democratic dissent they call “extremism”. Their de facto partners are “security” journalists, a recent breed of state or “lobby” propagandist. On 9 April, the BBC’s Newsnight programme promoted the guilt of 12 “terrorists” arrested in a contrived media drama orchestrated by the Prime Minister himself. All were later released without charge.

Something is changing in Britain that gives cause for optimism. The British people have probably never been more politically aware and prepared to clear out decrepit myths and other rubbish while stepping angrily over the babbling brook of bullshit.
www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=534

Craig,

Noting that;

A- I am not glamorising “Dear Leader” in any way, or shape, or attempting to gloss over his sins, also will not be attempting to try and bury his appalling human rights record.

B- “Dear Leader” has been using the threats of Military action by the US as good as US has been portraying him as a mad man to all and sundry around the world. In fact the symbiotic relationship between the opposing parties, would make fro an almost hilariously funny comedy, were it not for the seriousness of the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the potential resultants of fallout on the wider world.

Whereas;

Also I would not in a months of Sundays expect the "zombiefied" population of the DPRK to be able to rise up and get rid of “Dear Leader”, and his ilk. Seeing as the condition of these people, and their fear of the outsiders which has been confirmed time and again, renders the population hopelessly unprepared for any kind of mobilization against their government. Which is further aided by a most repressive regime of suppression through legions of secret police, to hold steadfastly to the lines of thoughts of the interested parties thereof.

However considering that;

A- Colin Powell, during many of his early visits (circa 2002, onwards) to Japan was pushing the Japanese government to repeal the laws concerning the use of Japanese Military solely as a defensive/peace force, with a view to moving the Japanese Martial Resources in the direction and aims of the US.

B- recollecting the embarrassing episode of return of the; Japan Maritime Self-defence Forces (JMSDF or Kaigun), ie. The Japanese Navy assets, leaving the Persian Gulf theatre of war for their home waters, amidst the ongoing fighting in Iraq, and Afghanistan, due to the Japanese parliament failing to reach and agreement on renewing the term of the stay of the said naval assets.

Krauthammer on North Korea: It’s time for Japan to go nuclear
http://tinyurl.com/re5cqg

Neo-cons come out guns blazing
By Jim Lobe
http://tinyurl.com/qdbyp8

For those wishing not to sully their computers with venturing into the following dubious site;

http://tinyurl.com/p5r72z

here is the points of interest;

Japan's Future

#“But since the July upper house poll, he has refused to consider an extension of the anti-terrorism law that allowed Japanese maritime forces to provide thousands of gallons of fuel to coalition ships operating near Afghanistan. This was a puzzling move, since the election had focused on domestic issues. Mr. Abe, however, had declared his intent to get the renewal passed, otherwise Tokyo would have to withdraw its ships from the Indian Ocean starting on November 1.#

To be continued;

eddie: "No independent journalists got into Gaza"

No, but lots of reports got out from people already there - medical staff, aid workers etc. This was often more telling than Bowen or any journalist could have come up.

"Self hating muslims" - oh dear, would that be like the self-hating Jews

That's right. A little joke at your expense eddie.

"Your comment "Rothschild controlled bank of england" speaks volumes and tells me all I need to know about your view of Jewish people and Jewish financiers".

Eh? It tells you nothing of the sort. It is surely of historical interest and significance however that the family most associated with Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel should, whether by accident or design, have a hand in Hitler's rise to power. Also in staying there by the way: I G Farben, the petro-chemical company that produced synthetic oil and rubber for the war effort and which used labour from Auschwitz, was partly owned by the Rothschilds. There is nothing remotely racist or anti-Jewish in pointing this out. It is simply a fact.

KevinB - lending money and getting interest on it is as old as mankind. What on earth do you propose in its place? If I lend you anything I would want something in return or do you believe in a perfect form of altruism? Perhaps this is all tied up with your Jewish fantasies. If you know anything about the history of the Jews you will know that in many countries they were not allowed to do anything other than lend money.

I laughed at your commment, "the elite, whoever they are" - ha ha. It's like a little child being scared of monsters in the dark. You say the world is controlled by dark forces and elites and you can't even name them. Laughable.

Pilger is an idiot and Herman denied that a massacre took place at Srebrenica. He is an historical revisionist of the contemptible sort.

@ eddie "Pilger is an idiot"

Pilger is a bloody hero, a true journalist. You're the bloody idiot.

Au Contraire, North Korea is proof indeed that nukes are a good deterrent strategy. The US has been a lot more respectful to the North Korean regime ever since they got them.

Of course, our deterrents don't matter because we'd just rely on the NATO missiles anyway. But failing to fund Trident 2 would have upset some wealthy people the PM has lunch with, and we cannot possibly have that.

About korea let me ask this simple question-why shoudl korea not have nulcear bombs with long range missile when britian had one stolen from the americans and americans had one stolen from the Germans. atleast koreans did on their own.

This is what i wrote way back in 1998 at Indian nulcear test and that applies to korea aswell.

may 1998.
Nuclear test was
needed firstly because then there will never be another gulf-war like situation and even if comes
the result will be very opposite of what happened in gulf war.Secondly also
to give sense of pide and honour among thirld world and not only India.
Remember that it is the same bastard b.b.c. and anglo-american media who
led a propaganda for nuclear armament of britain and for american missiles in britain.The same british gave a overwhelming
support to their p.m.when she said in '82 that she will be ready to bomb soviet union.Forget
the fact that britan was a mouse campared with soviet power.But that irrational utterance got
her popularity soaring and media ensured that the small opposition was
virtualyy eliminated.Not only micheal foot but also kinnock was made villain.and the same briitsh prime minsiter said that if mr. foot wins then the generals will have something to say about this-in other words she was inciting military coupe in uk if foot wins-though media made sure that there was no chance of foot having any support anywhere.Such are the english race.this present british p.m. is
more right wing than any right extemist party in India and he had to flex his musles(on back of americans) in gulf.If
it is all right for a third rate country like britain to flex muslcle then why not for India? Do not
underestimate duplicity of shopkeepers, race like english-with out history,class culture or taste.They
through their british agents(and that includes all british and english language media )they make
foreign and domestic and economic policy of america and through america of the world. They destroyed Russia
with false promise of so called free market so that they can sell drugs(alcohol and cigattetes) to starving russians. Suddenly
they feel campasion for the poor of india who might have had the money spent on nuclear bomb? When did they
ever care about their own poors who have always been crimanalized . No this
rubbish must be stopped.In argument of britain getting borrowed american nuclear bomb it
was said by the same media the even the huge money spent is worh while because even 10 times more
spending on conventional weapon is not equivalent to one nuclear bomb.
The same is true of India. This must be understood clearly and said clearly-
The biggest enemy of India(and for that matter of all non anglo-american race)is england and america.
In fact India must make a military pact with China and try to get rid of anglo-american influence
out of asia.

uk trident missile is itself a case of proliferation by the united states. because us kindly gave to uk at nominal fee the missile and bombs -itis not of uk making.
besides britian had stolen the bombs tehchnologty from america which had stolen it from the hijacked german scintists.
for that reason alone britan has no leg to stand on nonprolioferation -it itslef is beneficiary of nuclear proliferation by america.

Off topic, but check this out folks:
http://whythatsdelightful.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/evening-standard-needs-to-apologise-again-already/

Remember, Ian Tomlinson was one of their own vendors.

Never mind wasting time with trolls like; eddie.

Anyone frequenting this site more than once, will soon recognise the reactionary, suck up, lickspittle, that this eddie troll is, further, he is not worth even a single electron to be disturbed, never mind billions of these little wonders of our universe getting inconvenienced.

Pity the carbon foot print that the likes of eddie leave behind, if only there was a culling order for these serfs from their Malthusian Masters.

Get this one;

The news trickling out from Macedonia, of them all places (don't forget Camp Bond Steel);

Breaking: US Army moves to DEFCON 2
http://tinyurl.com/pxpee6

DEFCON 5~3 ......

DEFCON 2
This refers to a further increase in force readiness just below maximum readiness. The most notable time it was declared was during the Cuban Missile Crisis, although the declaration was limited to Strategic Air Command. It is not certain how many times this level of readiness has been reached.

DEFCON 1
This refers to maximum readiness. It is not certain whether this has ever been used, but it is reserved for imminent or ongoing attack on US military forces or US territory by a foreign military power.

In this clip, via Newsy, Abraham Denmark, an East Asia expert, states: "Militarily the North Koreans - qualitatively - are very poor. Most of their equipment is very outdated... their soldiers are malnourished and not very well trained. But what they lack qualitatively, they make up for quantitatively. North Korea has over a million soldiers."

North Korea is an impoverished, seemingly military-obsessed nation.

http://www.newsy.com/videos/northern_exposure_the_korean_threat

Could be talking out of my arse but I kinda assumed North Korea was a bit of a narco state like Burma - plus, obviously trades in any thing that it can add value to.

It certainly must have cost a bit to make the bombs - sure some of it could have been quid pro quo but they're getting their money from somewhere. Hmm... dodgy.

Craig: you say, “A casual observer dropping in from Mars would look at the UK's massive nuclear arsenal, compared to the size of the country and its economic problems, would look at New Labour plans to replace our nuclear arsenal with something still more massive, and conclude that Gordon Brown was much more of a crazed militaristic nutter than the Dear Leader.”

Isn’t the real picture as follows:-

1. The UK, as does the US, and a number of industrialised nations have deliverable nuclear weapons capability.
2. The known result of use of these weapons is MAD ( mutually assured destruction).
3. The rational decision is that the nuclear weapons not be deployed against any nation ( especially another nuclear armed nation).
4. The result of one nuclear nation attacking another with its nuclear weapons is that the country attacked would retaliate and deliver a counter strike that would inflict levels of damage the initial aggressor would not be willing to accept as the risk run of a first strike. Thus, the two nations remain at a standoff and avoid war as much as possible ( e.g. The Cuban Missile Crisis).
5. If 1 to 4 above is an accurate summary – then comes the question – why do the nuclear powers continue to build more nuclear weapons, knowing full well that they cannot “rationally” use same in a war. Is it that these powers are irrational? I suggest not.
6. The reasons for building these WMDs, I suspect are:-

1. Economic reasons related to the way in which the military-industrial complex functions in the world.
2. Reasons of having intimidatory military force at hand ( e.g. China without the bomb, is not the same as China with the bomb – in the world’s scenario of geopolitics).

There are more issues at hand, but the two (2) above ( crudely stated)
should summarise why the big powers hold these weapons. Reason one –
economic. Reason two – politics.

So – if the big boys in the world have these reasons – why then does North Korea pursue these weapons?

A. There are two “Koreas” with their own history over the course of the post World War 11 era, and one, South Korea, finds itself more associated with the US; while, the other finds itself affiliated with China. The politics and reasons behind the division of Korea is important to give the present issues historical context.
B. There was a mid-1990s Geneva Agreement with the US, subsequently nullified, and there was an admission by North Korea of its nuclear programme.
C. North Korea withdrew from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty in 2003 (something the US had done some time before – and – related to this observation is a sister treaty seeking to avoid the militarisation of space).
Point: No good example coming from the US for responsible international behaviour.
D. There have been crippling economic sanctions imposed on North Korea.
E. There have also been efforts at international agreement to demilitarise the Korean Peninsula.

The basis reason why North Korea seeks to have the nuclear weapons ( putting aside any consideration of the eccentricities of its “great leader” or the extreme poverty of its people) is that the regime sees more opportunity for negotiating to advantage by having the weapons ( as a bargaining chip) rather than be subjected to terms without this chip in hand.

That I believe sums up two things:-

1. The lunacy of countries such as Britain and the US spending more and more on these undesirable and ultimately “useless weapons” ( if either nation is seriously concerned about human survival on planet earth); and
2. The lunacy at 1 above being matched by a logic that says – it is better to negotiate in a mad world by having some equivalence of mad weapons as bargaining chips to hand.

To my mind, if there was any sanity to the processes that have been here outlined, there are steps which should be taken at the global level, and these would rationally included:-

i) A return to the NPT by all nuclear powers – US and Israel included.
ii) Global reduction of these WMDs.
iii) Commitment to operate within treaty obligations, and not encourage or support proliferation. It would have to be the US to take the lead, Russia and China to follow, and the likes of the UK, Pakistan, India, Israel would through international and good example be obliged to fall in line.

Craig: Having a crazy North Korean attack in mind, you also said, “Do we then obliterate North Korea with nuclear weapons and kill tens of millions of people and create untold further environmental damage?”
Rationally, we can’t go down that road. But, since the WMDs are a global reality, what we should all be doing is having a serious look at i), ii) and iii) above and hasten to what has to be a position of “global sanity”. The global arms industry; the profits generated from weapons productions; the false philosophies of “security” and the supposed need for maximum force of armaments post- 9/11 – all serve to fuel a public mind-set that ends up supportive of governments deeply immersed in the nasty business of the international arms trade. Do not expect to see this line of reasoning in any sustained way, being expressed in the Guardian,
Times, Independent or any of the corporate media. The sad truth is that there is a nexus between main stream media and a sustenance of the orthodoxy of supporting the arms trade. Informed public opinion and a well organised, sustained campaign for disarmament can begin to make a difference. There are rational and necessary steps to be taken in exposing the lie in the suggestion that all these further expenditures on arms is really going to make an iota of difference to some motivated terrorist, or will make us safer. Arming up to fight the terrorists and rogue nations, has become the new post cold war rationale for increased expenditures on arms. End result – more and more of taxpayers money is spent on building arsenals that simply cannot be used!

So, “Do we then obliterate North Korea with nuclear weapons and kill tens of millions of people…?” No, we do not – instead, we kill the WMDs production, along with the philosophies that led to their production, and act rationally to reduce global arms production, and seek in a timely way to avoid the global catastrophe which use of such weapons would inevitably lead to.

Richard: I think N Korea makes most of its money selling armaments.

Edo "A journalist...is a person who practices journalism, the gathering and dissemination of information about current events, trends, issues, and people while striving for viewpoints that aren't biased." Wikipedia. If you agree that Melanie Phillips is a journalist I will agree with you that Pilger is too. Otherwise let's just agree that he is a polemicist who distorts the facts to match his distorted world view. He may be a hero to you but he is a creep to most thinking people.

Jaded, who mentioned the Federal Reserve? Not me. I questioned MJ's dubious reference to the "Rothschild controlled bank of england" a phrase that is both irrelevant and untrue.

MJ I am still waiting for those links to the videos of Christians flogging young girls. Have you found them yet? Perhaps you will admit that drawing attention to a video of the Taliban flogging a girl is not Islamophobic?

Strong possibility that the magnitude 4.7 seismic event that occurred on 25 May 2009 and the 4.3 seismic event that occurred on 9 October 2006 and were claimed by North Korea to be Nuclear Tests...Were Not Nuclear Tests.

I think the US would know if they were. They tend to be rather good at spotting such things.

Check out http://earthquake.usgs.gov/ for details. They state "the USGS cannot positively identify the seismic event as a nuclear test".

I suspect that the US has done a deal with North Korea for the benefit of the Israeli's and their desire to attack Iran. Its all about propaganda and is bullshit.

Craig meanwhile is close to approving the starvation of Millions of North Koreans on misinformation.

Its amazing what crap is served up for public consumption - yet how easy it is to get much closer to the truth by a simple Google search that takes less than 5 minutes.

Tony

Isn't the issue really more about NK selling the delivery systems to someone with a working warhead that they can plug in or some other sort of dastardly payload? The technical mastery of rocketry seems to be what NK has cultivated; perhaps their intent is to finance the nuclear program once they've a market for their delivery systems. http://www.newsy.com/videos/northern_exposure_the_korean_threat

The key to North Korea may be China, which may exert a stabilising influence despite the North Korean nuclear programme, all the more if the Chinese themselves are alarmed at recent events. Barring invasion or attempted attacks on Kim Jong-Il, therefore, using Chinese mediation may be most likely to bring benefit in the situation. If in addition Kim Jong-Il passes away and there is a change for the better comparable to that following the deaths of Stalin or Hoxha, so much the better.

This news item found today after doing a google search with the entry "Latest news North Korea":-

May, 27th Tokyo:

May, 28th Washington:

" North Korea Threatens to Attack South, Calls Truce Ending Korean War Invalid Washington Post - Thu May 28, 12:00 am ET

TOKYO, May 27 -- North Korea vowed Wednesday to attack South Korea if ships from the North are searched as part a U.S.-led effort to stop vessels suspected of carrying missiles or weapons of mass destruction. It also declared that the truce that ended the Korean War in 1953 was no longer valid."

The issues on the table are real, the dangers are real, the solutions, with a sense of honesty and reality - might now be considered - given the reality of these kinds of issues.My points about the global arms trade are now brought into sharpe and direct focus. Recall the "Matrix Churchill" indicent in the UK? Want to hear you Craig - given the realities of what is fast unfolding. Over to - worthy of your comment, experinece, and thoughtful inpiut - right Craig? - over to you.

PS. Give me some good news Craig - tell me I am incorrect in believeing in the reality of what I am reading - with all your diplomatic experience - is someone flying a "false flag"?

SORRY – SENT TOO SOON. MY APOLOGY FOR THE TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS I MADE EARLIER. I HAVE TRIED TO CORRECT THOSE WITH THIS RE-POST. THE THOUGHT ERRORS REMAIN ALL MINE.
This news item found today after doing a Google search with the entry "Latest news North Korea":-
May, 27th Tokyo:
May, 28th Washington:
" North Korea Threatens to Attack South, Calls Truce Ending Korean War Invalid Washington Post - Thu May 28, 12:00 am ET

TOKYO, May 27 -- North Korea vowed Wednesday to attack South Korea if ships from the North are searched as part a U.S.-led effort to stop vessels suspected of carrying missiles or weapons of mass destruction. It also declared that the truce that ended the Korean War in 1953 was no longer valid."
The issues on the table are real, the dangers are real, the solutions, with a sense of honesty and reality - might now be considered - given the reality of these kinds of issues. My points about the global arms trade are now brought into sharp and direct focus. Recall the "Matrix Churchill" incident in the UK? Want to hear you Craig - given the realities of what is fast unfolding. Over to - worthy of your comment, experience, and thoughtful input - right Craig? - over to you.
PS. Give me some good news Craig - tell me I am incorrect in believing in the reality of what I am reading - with all your diplomatic experience - is someone flying a "false flag"?

Tony
The US has done a deal with North Korea? What fantasy island do you live on? Where is your evidence? If you idiots think that google provides the answers to your fantasies then you are no better than the nutballs I saw at Speakers' corner last Sunday, all being laughed at by their sane compatriots.

eddie, "most thinking people".. what? like you? Don't make me laugh. Cognitive Dissonance - look that one up on Eraserpedia and see where it gets you.

Hi All,

while the discussion seems to be raging on this topic, I suspect that a few regulars may have missed Craig's previous entry on the 27th...

It's the Andrew Dismore entry I'm on about...

eddie,

It's to NK's domestic advantage to give the impression that they have nuclear arms and have tested two - but the first was almost certainly not a nuclear device or if it was it went fizzle, and its highly probable that the second went likewise. You may believe everything you read in the Daily Express, but I take such "news" with a pinch of salt.

With regards to your views that Jews/Israel are not in control of the Worlds financial system - then I kind of agree with you but with some reservations.

It's International Globalists who are in control of the agenda, and whilst some of them may come from a Khazar background and may have connections to both Eastern Europe and Israel, they only influence rather than control it. They do however have far more influence over the political, economic and media systems in both America and the UK - than is healthy for either America or the UK. I do give them credit for achieving such influence but think this is largely due to weakness and corruption within the American and UK elites that are skillfully exploited.

At the moment the entire World is in a precarious state, and in great danger of descending into poverty and civil war which would be disasterous. This is largely due to the elites trying to maintain a Capitalist system based on perpetual growth which is unsustainable in a finite world - unless they go through the process of crashing and destroying much of the World and its population every 50 years or so.

This is not a sensible way to control World affairs as it turns the Planet into a living hell.

There are far more sensible solutions but our first problem is to find away of removing power from the insane psychopaths like Kissinger, Brzezinski and Co who are intent on completing their genocidal agenda before they themselves drop dead.

Tony

not so "mad" after all perhaps?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6374870.ece

sorry forgot to sign

Craig,

Noting that;

A- I am not glamorising “Dear Leader” in any way, or shape, or attempting to gloss over his sins, and also the fact that I will not be attempting to try and bury his appalling human rights record.

B- “Dear Leader” has been using the threats of Military action by the US against DPRK as good as US has been portraying him as a mad man to all and sundry around the world. In fact the symbiotic relationship between the opposing parties, would make for an almost hilariously funny comedy, were it not for the seriousness of the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the potential resultant fallout on the wider world.

Whereas;

Also I would not in a months of Sundays expect the "zombiefied" population of the DPRK to be able to rise up and get rid of “Dear Leader”, and his ilk. Seeing as the condition of these people, and their fear of the outsiders which has been confirmed time and again, renders the population hopelessly unprepared for any kind of mobilization against their government. Which is further aided by a most pervasive regime of suppression, that is achieved through legions of secret police, in the way of holding steadfastly to the lines of thoughts of the interested parties, as prescribed.

However considering that;

A- Colin Powell, during the many of his early visits (circa 2002, onwards) to Japan was pushing the Japanese government to repeal the laws concerning the use of Japanese Military solely as a defensive/peace force, with a view to moving the Japanese Martial Resources in the direction and aims of the US.

B- recollecting the embarrassing episode of return of the; Japan Maritime Self-defence Forces (JMSDF or Kaigun), ie. The Japanese Navy assets, leaving the Persian Gulf theatre of war for their home waters, amidst the ongoing fighting in Iraq, and Afghanistan, due to the Japanese parliament failing to reach and agreement on renewing the terms of the stay of the said naval assets.

Krauthammer on North Korea: It’s time for Japan to go nuclear
http://tinyurl.com/re5cqg

Neo-cons come out guns blazing
By Jim Lobe
http://tinyurl.com/qdbyp8

For those wishing not to sully their computers with venturing into the following dubious site;

http://tinyurl.com/p5r72z

here is the points of interest;

Japan's Future

#“But since the July upper house poll, he has refused to consider an extension of the anti-terrorism law that allowed Japanese maritime forces to provide thousands of gallons of fuel to coalition ships operating near Afghanistan. This was a puzzling move, since the election had focused on domestic issues. Mr. Abe, however, had declared his intent to get the renewal passed, otherwise Tokyo would have to withdraw its ships from the Indian Ocean starting on November 1.#

Japan resumes Afghan war role
http://tinyurl.com/qvx92g

Therefore, as it is evident that, the notions of the agreement between Clinton, and DPRK with respect to; construction of three light water reactors for generation of electricity, and shipment of 500,000 tonnes of fuel oil per annum for the various oil fired electricity generation plants, as well as provision of half million tonnes of grain for consumption per annum, were all too easily reneged on by the neo conservative incumbents of the White house , whose notions of controling the Chinese growth index took into account a total and global dominance of the resources needed for any potential growth. This idea getting sold to the power brokers, as well as the movers and shakers of the US/UK (ultimately Europe), whilst the promises of concurrently diagnosing, and curing the Enronitis of the US economy through the greater consumption brought on by the wars to be fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. These plans were fool proof, so these were sold as, and these were thought of!

Fact is, the efforts of militarisation of the whole of the area, have been kept apace, regardless of the smoke and mirrors Kabuki we all have been treated to. The notion of DPRK going nuclear was a desired outcome, with a view to push the Nuclear Shy Japanese, in the direction of mustering their martial provision to fall within the parameters of the weltanschauung of neo conservatives in US. This in turn was to keep the Chinese and Russians on their toes, and busy. Simple Fact is “Dear Leader” is doing exactly what is required of him, and delivering the goods just in time.

It is time that the world community started addressing the real issues facing it, without wasting time on the tertiary matters that are only in the interest of US.

PS My post on the Israel thread upon hitting the post button, was met with; “Your comment has been received. To protect against malicious comments, I have enabled a feature that allows your comments to be held for approval the first time you post a comment. I'll approve your comment when convenient; there is no need to re-post your comment. Return to the comment page”. Needless to point out my post to date has not made it through, and remains unpublished.

PPS this post yesterday met with the same fate as above.

PPS my humble apologies for such a long winded post. Alas the pervasiveness of disinformation make necessary such copiously worded posts.

There are a number of very interesting comments on this thread, including many which take a different view to me. But I have deleted a whole train which got back again, irrelevantly, on to Israel and the Holocaust.

Frankly, anybody who believes that the list of names of historic Chairmen of the US Federal Reserve, reveals some sort of secret grouping that is orchestrating the North Korea dispute from behind the scenes, is crazy.

As for the idea that North Korea may just be pretending to explode nuclear bombs for domestic consumption, that is not crazy but I fear unlikely. Famously, you cannot predict earthquakes. Is there any evidence that the NKs have signalled oin any way there explosions in advance? (Open question - don't know the answer this morning).

I fear the probability is that NK does have the ability to create a nuclear explosion, and wishinhg it away doesn't really help.

Vamanos

Your comments keep getting rejected as spam becuase you put too many links in them. One comment, one link max is a good rule of thumb.

Wow - I guess I was wrong about you being a champion of freedom.

I don't think I posted anything "incendiary" about the H(won't write the word in case you delete it again).

But don't worry,I won't participate here again.

I must have missed the 'Chairmen of the Fed' responsible for Korean nuke post.

Here (below) is an article about North Korea's bomb. A rare thing. A journalist producing interesting, non-bellicose, informative copy.

Kim Jong Il’s provocations to the West may hide a rational purpose

In a global unpopularity contest it is difficult to think of anyone more friendless than the North Korean Government of Kim Jong Il. He makes Robert Mugabe, the Burmese junta and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad look appealing by comparison.

So what can North Korea gain by its current round of provocations, which have alienated even its old ally, China — a nuclear test, followed by short-range missile tests, and now a threat to tear up the armistice that ended the Korean War?

The most common analysis is that it is an effort to capture the attention of the Government that matters most to North Korea — the US Administration of Barack Obama. Mr Kim wants one thing more than any other — a comprehensive peace treaty, with guarantees of North Korean security, in place of the flimsy armistice, and all underwritten by the US. It is towards this end that all his mischief-making, and his nuclear programme, are bent; and he will have eagerly noted Mr Obama’s inauguration promise to reach out a hand to America’s antagonists.

He may by now be wondering why he has not received more attention from the US, which has been far more focused on Afghanistan and the Middle East. Part of North Korean thinking is undoubtedly to force itself on to the US political agenda, and put itself in a position of strength in advance of the inevitably tough negotiations ahead.

It has worked in the past — even the temperamentally uncompromising Bush Administration gave in and agreed to bilateral talks with Pyongyang, and removed North Korea from a blacklist of terrorist states. There is something about the speed and tone of the current development — a sense of acceleration and a manic quality, striking even by North Korean standards — that leads one to suspect that there is more to it than the usual urge to affront the outside world.

The answer may lie in that element of the North Korean enigma least accessible to outside scrutiny — the internal power politics of its leadership. The signs are that Kim Jong Il is in complete control, but close examination of recent internal developments leads many Pyongyang-watchers to the conclusion that he is leaning towards military hardliners, and away from the more reform-oriented advisers he favoured in the middle of the present decade.

Reports, unsatisfactorily filtered as always through unsourced leaks to South Korean journalists, suggest that old aides have been dispatched to labour camps or even executed, and replaced with hardliners. In February the vice-marshal of the Korean People’s Army, Kim Yong Chun, was appointed minister of the National Defence Commission, and General Ri Yong Ho was made army chief of staff. Both are hawks, associated with the North’s first nuclear test in 2006, the kind of old fashioned ideologues who would always favour confrontation over compromise and who would glory in the prestige of membership of the nuclear club.

Why does Kim Jong Il need such men? The best one can do is speculate, but the answer is almost certainly connected to the stroke that he appears to have suffered last summer, which put him out of action for weeks. Other snippets of information suggest that he is wisely contemplating his end, and preparing one of his sons (probably the third and youngest, Kim Jong Un) for power. Any such transition will be highly uncertain and will require powerful supporters. In the absence of the Dear Leader, the only power that will count may be that of raw military force.

It is easy to overlook another, and more obvious factor — public opinion. North Koreans are probably the most oppressed people on Earth, but they are not completely brainwashed.

Plenty of them will take a genuine, and uncynical pride, that their small country has matched in technology the superpowers of the world.

Finally there is the most obvious motivation if all — the military one. North Korea has been on a war footing all of Kim Jong Il’s life. Comparatively recently, President Bush pronounced his Government to be part of the Axis of Evil — shortly before invading Iraq. Whatever you think of Mr Kim, it is entirely understandable that he should want to protect himself as effectively as possible — and history suggests that nuclear weapons are a potent guarantee of being left alone.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6374870.ece

Mentalogirl,

This is a blog rather than a public forum. I can understand that the author sets the subject matter up for discussion. He has a right to defend his site against threads being taken over by others every bit as opinionated as himself. I expect to suffer from this kind of editing myself.

Craig,

Thanks for the advice, will adhere to the mentioned rule of thumb.

With respect to your comment;

“fear the probability is that NK does have the ability to create a nuclear explosion, and wishinhg it away doesn't really help.”

The current stale arguments forwarded in respect of the failing nukes, and pretend nukes of DPRK, these lines of thinking are the remnants of the neo con stories on their way to their war in the Korean Peninsula.

These arguments were publicly first forwarded by Joshua Muravchik , and Edward Luttwak both arch Zionists of the nth degree, and therefore fully paid up members of the neo con cabal, following in the foot steps of Leo Strauss, and engaging in telling the consolable lies that evidently societies are in need of!

The policies of bigging up of none existent threats with a view to start a war with the militarily weaker nations, also needs to be complemented by the playing down of the potential threats emanating from smaller but capable nations, for the benefit of these warmongers.

In the first instant the bigging up is to create a risk to the public, which is then inured against by the initiation of war, to destroy the risk.

In the second instant the levels of threats faced are played down to start the war, for a frightened nation may decide to capitulate (negotiate, their way out) and leave the neo cons without their war.

Therefore the notion of wishing away the DPRK nukes, as well as casting doubts as to the success of these tests are for the benefit of improving the Gesundes Volksempfinden, and getting the lily livered masses to back the war these neo con warmongers are desperately in need of starting.

Therefore the fanciful notions of wishing away the Fission reaction that has resulted in a 4.5 Richter scale earth quake, and has been verified by the various seismic stations dotted all around the globe for this very reason. This in addition to the sniffer satellites orbiting the earth, as well as the flights of aircraft equipped with detection gear, will soon result in revealing the make up profile of the device used on this occasion by the NK. However dependent on the political imperatives will this data be made available to we the people or not, is another question that only time will answer?

VamanosBandidos,

It is refreshing to come across such an intelligent and eloquent poster.

I understand that the various different monitoring systems across the globe can easily tell the difference between natural eathquakes, nuclear explosions, and conventional explosions.

As I posted above "the USGS cannot positively identify the seismic event as a nuclear test".

Why would they say that - paricularly with the disclaimer wrapped afterwards which said it was at almost exactly the same location.

Its easy to amplify a loud bang, put probably impossible to suppress the fingerprint of a nuclear explosion.

I forgive Craig for deleting my last post - because it was in response to other posters and off-topic.

Tony

'Frankly, anybody who believes that the list of names of historic Chairmen of the US Federal Reserve, reveals some sort of secret grouping that is orchestrating the North Korea dispute from behind the scenes, is crazy.'

I quite agree with you there Craig. I may have missed some of the comments you deleted since I last looked at this site. So, if anyone read my post directing eddie to a list of names of undemocratic bankers - God knows why eddie brought that issue up on this thread in the first place (very confusing, but thought i'd answer his quetion) - thought it was linked to North Korea in some way it certainly wasn't. My mind boggles.

FWIW,

I think the correct course of action with NK is to avoid unnecessary escalation, where possible - particularly actions that escalate things for little practical benefit. Instead to keep things militarily as stable as possible, while engaging at a human level with NK as much as possible (trade; tourism; etc).

This course has worked well with stand-offs and cold-wars with other paranoid, marxist-communist states in the past, USSR and China particularly. The lure of hard-currency trade/tourism opens the door, which leads to human engagement, which helps, slowly, to dispel the paranoia (present mostly on one side, but not completely absent on the western side either). With repeated application there-of, pressure will build from within for the regime to liberalise.

It takes time and patience, and it denies the more militaristic their fun, but it's been proven to work without having to starve (by western sanctions at least) or nuke lots of people.

Jaded
I did not bring up the list of names or the Federal Reserve, I don't know where you got that from, and I can see why Craig deleted all that irrelevant stuff.

To return to North Korea - probably the most evil regime on the planet. What more needs to be said. Any notions of dark forces and conspiracies are simply false. If they are anywhere close to producing a deliverable nuclear weapon I think we, the West, would be fully justified in destroying their facilities.

Eddie, I referred to the issue you raised of no one naming the names of powerful bankers, which you clearly did. Or do you formally deny you made that post? Craig will have this on record still and many people will have seen it, so don't start being silly. I simply saw your post and responded with the most obvious list of names I could think of. What prompted you to make that post I know not. Let's stick to the facts please eddie. I think you may well have some of the stuff Kevin said confused with my post, If you think I am telling fibs I suggest you take it up with Craig. I know full well what you wrote. I must have missed all the conspiracy theories, so I don't know what was said. I wasn't too happy to see my post linked with any of those theories, as I hadn't said anything remotely like that to be honest. On North Korea I think we should just leave them alone myself. I don't see them attacking anyone unless they are threatened themselves. It's hardly rocket science.

By Israel Adam Shamir – May 29, 2009

The successful underground nuclear test in North Korea unleashed a huge wave – a wave of hypocrisy, that is. The state with by far the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, the country that has already used A-bombs against civilians, the US, expressed its outrage. U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice said, “The United States thinks that this is a grave violation of international law and a threat to regional and international peace and security and therefore the United States will seek a strong resolution with strong measures.” According to Rice, it is not invasion, it is not occupation, it is not aggression, but rather it is arming oneself against a very probable invasion, aggression and occupation that violates international law. And she did not remind us of a well-forgotten fact: for many years it was North Korea that called for turning the whole of Korean peninsula into nuclear-weapons-free zone, and it was the US that insisted on having its nukes on North Korea’s doorstep.

North Korea, or the Chosen in its own language, is a country of indomitable men and women. They are strong, independent and hard-working. They shake hands with an iron grip. Their names are short, their cabbage is fiery, their national pride knows no limits – and for good reason: they fought against the US in its prime, and survived the worst onslaught ever engineered by Man. Think Dresden, multiply by Gaza and add Iraq to equal Korea in the 1950s. The US and its satellites dropped more bombs on this small mountainous country than they had dropped on Germany. General Douglas Macarthur wanted to nuke them, but Harry Truman stopped him: there were no objects worth nuking, for every single standing man-made structure had already been destroyed. The Korean War was mass murder writ large: millions of Koreans were killed, burned by napalm, shot and executed by the Americans and their allies. Any Korean village's death rate could compete with that of Auschwitz.

The Koreans survived and rebuilt their country. But the massive bombing took a heavy toll on the people’s psyche. A nation will never be the same after saturation bombing, any more than will an individual who has been gang raped. Usually they break down into total submission for a generation (that is why gang rape is the prisoners’ way to assume control over a disobedient inmate), so did Serbs, so did Germans, so did the Japanese after being sodomised by US bombs. The Koreans’ own post-traumatic syndrome consisted of withdrawal, extreme self-reliance and endless fear of another attack. This fear was well-grounded in reality: US troops and bases still occupy the south of the Korean peninsula. South Korea is still as far from independence as it was before the WWII, only the US has replaced Japan as the colonising power.

More importantly, the US has carried out relentless sanctions warfare against unvanquished, independent Korea. This well-developed strategy of blockade was utilised with great success against Iraq and Cuba, and now Americans plan to use it against Iran. Noam Chomsky correctly defined the US strategy: never give up; keep destroying countries which do not submit by all means possible including economic warfare. Whoever does not surrender should be pushed back into the Stone Age.

Korea was willing to dismantle its nuclear facilities, provided the US would cease its economic warfare. They signed an agreement, closed down the reactor, but the US reneged on the agreement and turned up its hostilities. America, as ruled by its “Chicago boys,” is neo-liberal to the bone and cannot tolerate a socialist state. Korea would not let American companies take over its economy, and that is why the US and its satellites kept impounding Korean bank accounts and interfering with its trade. The imperial media were kept busy churning out dreadful stories (actually, regurgitated anti-Communist urban legends from McCarthy’s days) about starving Koreans under commies’ yoke. They were not going to allow Korea to live its own, socialist way.

When the people of South Korea began to express their wish to unite with the independent North, South Korea was robbed by the Mammonites who engineered the great Tiger crisis of 1997. Everything you are experiencing now during the 2009 crisis the South Koreans went through twelve years ago. Their great economy was broken to pieces and bought for peanuts by the trans-nationals. All their accumulated labour of many years was snatched by George Soros et al. At the same time, the American offensive against independent Korea was intensified.

President GW Bush (or his speechwriter David Frum) designated Korea, next to Iraq and Iran, to be part of the Axis of Evil. In this situation, the Koreans were right to develop the ultimate weapon of defence. And this holds equally true for Iran today. A Korean and Iranian nuclear deterrent would be a defensive shield for these independent countries.

Korea did not take it lying down. This rather small and far away country, enfeebled by blockade and sanctions, contributes more than its fair share to the most important battle over Palestine. The Koreans, who suffered so much from the American-imposed siege, do help besieged Gaza and other neighbours of the Jewish state to acquire weapons. Not necessarily nukes – even conventional arms interfere with the total freedom of Israelis to kill Palestinians and to fly over Beirut and Damascus.

Using the nuclear issue as a pretext, the pro-Israel Lobby pushed for the decision to search all Korean shipping. They also orchestrated a vast public campaign in the mass media, uniting anti-Communists and nuke-fearing pacifists against socialist Korea. We are supposed to be afraid of Korean A-bombs and call upon Obama and Netanyahu to disarm the rebels.

God knows I am a peaceful man, but I'm not a pacifist. Weapons are needed to defend people from Israeli-American state terrorism. A so-called pacifist who supports American and Israeli attempts to maintain their monopoly on nuclear arms is, in my book, just another supporter of the Judeo-American war machine. If he is an honest man, let him call for the disarmament of the Chosen Peoples of Israel and America, and postpone dealing with the Chosen people of Korea and the Iranians until after Dimona is dismantled and American nukes are turned into ploughshares.

The struggle for Korean nuclear independence is extremely relevant for the Middle East, and first of all, for the Iranian nuclear project. It is true that Iran is not seeking military application for its nuclear industry, being perfectly content with peaceful energy. However, the Judeo-American interests want to turn North Korea into an example for Iran. They wish to do something nasty to not-too-relevant Korea so that Iran will fall in line.

Obama could settle with Korea at the quite reasonable price of stopping the interference with its life. Sign a peace treaty, stop the threats, remove the sanctions, terminate the campaign of hate. The Koreans would pay for normalisation of their relationship with the US by giving up their nuclear facilities. But that would neither frighten nor seduce Iran. So Obama may choose a violent action including a naval blockade, so that a suitably impressed Iran will close down its reactors.

This would be a pity. A pity for Koreans who deserve, like everybody else, to live their lives the way they like. A pity for Korea’s enemies, for the Koreans are not easy to defeat. And a pity for the Middle East which badly needs the deterring presence of a nuclear-capable Iran.

The Israeli media published a poll claiming that “some 23 percent of Israelis would consider leaving the country if Iran obtains a nuclear weapon”. The idea is to push the US and Europe into a frenzy of anti-Iranian action, for no country would like to absorb two million Israeli refugees. This is the secret Doomsday weapon of Zionist propaganda: if pushed hard, we’ll just go back to your countries and you are not going to like it. However, the small print of the survey shows that this fear of Iran is spread mainly among suggestible Israelis, 39 percent of women as opposed to 22 percent of men – they swallowed their government's propaganda -- hook, line and sinker.

Paradoxically for us Israelis, nuclear Iran represents hope for peace, not a threat to it. Our greatest danger lies in the aggressive tendency of our generals and politicians. They have already caused so many unneeded wars by attacking Lebanon, Syria, the Palestinians. There is need for a counterbalance, for a great and powerful state that would keep our [Israeli] hawks in check. Since Iraq was subdued by the US army and Egypt by political means, Israeli generals have gone to war every two years. Only a nuclear Iran is likely to check Israeli warmongers and force Israel to proceed with peace process.

No sane Israeli expert, not even an extreme hawk, believes that a nuclear Iran would endanger or threaten Israel. Israel is too powerful, perfectly capable of delivering a deadly second strike. But this mind-boggling freedom of action the Israeli military enjoys would be gone, and that would be a good thing.

The balance of fear, or MAD (mutual assured destruction) is still the only way to deal with the Israeli-American threat. This was the reason for the martyrdom of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; by helping the USSR to build their nuclear bomb they saved uncounted millions from horrible death, even at the price of their own life.

The DPRK is, in fact, a member of the United Nations despite what a previous commenter said as the link they provided also showed (hint: look for "Korea, Democratic People's Republic of")

Also, Mr Murray, you seem to think that depriving people in North Korea food aid will bring the people to their senses and have them rise up against their oppressors. Even if such a hideous moral calculation was based on a hope that a "long-term better outcome" was possible then you will find that history is dead against you. People starved to death in their millions particularly in the 1990s in the countryside, perhaps as many as 2 million, and the results have been stunted growth, mental retardation and decreased fertility of many of the survivors but barely the faintest stirrings of revolt so let's lay that one to bed immediately if you want to have anything worth saying about the outrageous treatment of Palestinians or the death toll in Iraq as a foreign policy towards North Korea implemented by you would lead to vastly more deaths with zero positive results.

With regard to the operational independence of Britain's nuclear deterrent, please see http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmdfence/986/98607.htm#a17