Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights Calls For Public Inquiry on UK Complicity in Torture

by craig on August 4, 2009 9:06 am in Rendition

The parliamentary joint committee on human rights has this morning published its report on UK complicity in torture. The headline is a call for a full public inquiry on the subject.

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The most salient fact in the entire report does not feature prominently. Foreign Secretary David Miliband and Home Secretary Alan Johnson both refused to appear before the committee to answer the damning evidence given by witnesses, myself included.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF9spgagSHI

Arguably, if we had a proper system of parliamentary accountability, the JCHR inquiry would have itself been the public inquiry they want. For ministers simply to refuse to appear speaks volumes for the government’s evasiveness on torture, and determination that the truth should not come out. The greatest danger of this is that individual MI5 and MI6 officers are under investigation by the Metropolitan Police for collusion with torture. We will end up with the Abu Ghraib result, with minions being jailed, while the politicians who authorised the torture policy get off scot free.

Not that I believe a public inquiry will achieve much – it will be yet another whitewash, like the John Chilcot Iraq “Inquiry” entirely consisting of safe establishment yes-men. But it would be a step on the way to public acknowledgement of the role of Straw and Blair in bringing back torture as an accepted tool of governance in the UK.

The Committee report might have been expected to be scathing about Johnson’s and Miliband’s refusal to give evidence. In fact the report spends far more time attacking me for the vigour of my efforts to give evidence:

Mr Murray was a convincing witness when he appeared before us and his allegations are supported by some documentary evidence. His credibility has not been enhanced by his somewhat bizarre dealings with the Committee, however. When he first approached us about giving oral evidence we asked him for a written memorandum, which is standard practice for select committees. His response was to publish a story on his blog entitled “Parliamentary Joint Human Rights Commission Struck By Cowardice” which alleged that we were consulting party whips about how to deter him from giving oral evidence.40 This

was entirely untrue, as our subsequent decision to ask him to give oral evidence, despite his

comments, demonstrated. In May, Mr Murray published further comments on his blog,

suggesting that our Chair was a “stooge” of the Uzbek regime and had somehow been

implicated in his dismissal as UK ambassador.41 Again, these comments are entirely

without substance and may only serve to damage Mr Murray’s credibility and reputation.

I have to say this smacks of desperation in an effort to discredit evidence which the Committee admits was both “Convincing” and backed by documentation. Whoever drafted this also uses the old tricks of misrepresentation. I never said the Committee was “Consulting party whips”. I said that New Labour whips were leaning on New Labour members of the Committee not to hear my evidence – that I know for certain is true. I tried to give the same evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee in 2005 and was refused. The JHRC took three meetings spread over a month deciding whether to hear me. If we had not brought pressure, I should be quite clear that I do not believe that they would have called me.

As for Committee chair Andrew Dismore, I stand by my posting about Dismore, his links to the Uzbek Embassy and the speeches he has made in Parliament on Uzbekistan promoting the Uzbek government line.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/05/andrew_dismore.html

I believe it was wrong of Dismore not to mention his links to the Uzbek Embassy in chairing the evidence session I gave. Interestingly the Committee’s carefully worded paragraph does not actually deny Dismore’s links to the Uzbek Embassy.

It amazes me that the Committee spent so little energy in decrying the refusal to testify of Johnson and Miliband, to cover up a policy of torture, and so much energy attacking me for comments about the committee on my blog. What a bunch of self-regarding political pygmies they are.

In fact, despite the de rigeur attack on Craig Murray’s credibility, my testimony forms part of the very weft of the whole report. Remove the sideswipe at me, and it is a very good report. In particular, no amount of rubbishing me could wish away the existence of the Michael Wood letter to me, giving the FCO’s legal endorsement of the use of torture material.

Download file

I leaked this classified document by publication to the internet over four years ago. It was instantly posted and mirrored by thousands of sites around the World, making it impossible to keep it secret. But this report published today is the first official acknowledgement of the existence of this document and first official attempt to come to terms with what it means. It also, of course, shatters the government’s argument that I am making it all up (a line Jack Straw still regularly deploys).

The Committee made excellent use of the Michael Wood letter:

Other key unpublished documents are copies of the relevant legal advice given to the

Government about the relevant human rights standards concerning torture and complicity

in torture. As we mentioned above, there is already in the public domain the

memorandum from the Senior Legal Adviser to the Foreign Office, Michael Wood, dated

13 March 2003, which says:

Your record of our meeting with HMA Tashkent recorded that Craig had said that

his understanding was that it was also an offence under the UN Convention on

Torture to receive or possess information under torture. I said that I did not believe

that this was the case, but undertook to re-read the Convention.

I have done so. There is nothing in the Convention to this effect. The nearest thing

is Article 15 which provides [for the inadmissibility in evidence of any statement

which is established to have been made as a result of torture.].

This does not create any offence. I would expect that under UK law any statement

established to have been made as a result of torture would not be admissible as

evidence.

89. We accept, as Professor Sands pointed out in his evidence to us, that this short memo

responding to a specific query should not be treated as a formal, fully reasoned legal advice.

However, we are concerned that this response from the Foreign Office’s most senior lawyer

makes no mention of the requirement in Article 4(1) UNCAT that States criminalise

“complicity or participation in torture”. As Professor Sands commented: “In a formal and

limited sense Mr Wood’s response is correct, but it seems not to address the issue in the

round. … there may be circumstances in which the receipt or possession of information

that has been obtained by torture may amount to complicity in torture, within the meaning

of Article 4(1).”

90. The memo from the Foreign Office Legal Adviser raises a number of important

questions. As Professor Sands also said in his evidence, it may well be that Sir Michael

Wood, other lawyers or the Law Officers address the meaning and effect of Article 4 of

UNCAT in other more reasoned opinions, but this memo does not address that and

therefore “it does not give a complete answer.”125 We do not know whether other, more

reasoned advices were given to ministers or to the intelligence and security services. It is

important, in our view, to ascertain whether the Government was ever advised as to the

possibility that systematic reliance on information which may have been obtained under

torture risks at some point crossing the line into complicity in torture for which the UK

would be responsible under the relevant legal standards.

While a public Inquiry would be useful, I believe the major part of the truth about our ministerially approved policy on the use of torture could simply be revealed by releasing the minutes of my meeting of 7 or 8 March 2003 with Sir Michael Wood, Linda Duffield and Matthew Kydd at which I was told of the policy. The top copy includes a manuscript note which makes plain that Jack Straw had ordered the meeting and gives his views. I suggested that the Committee call for this minute, but they do not seem to have done so.

A final point worth mentioning is the continued UK media blackout. I have given 17 media interviews on the Committee’s report so far. including to CNN, but they have almost all been foreign. Only LBC radio in the UK has interviewed me. Neither do I exist in any of the press reports except a brief mention in the Herald.

56 Comments

  1. actgreen

    4 Aug, 2009 - 10:32 am

    Well done Craig!

    Indeed, “What a bunch of self-regarding political pygmies they are.”

    Pretty well says it all in my view, but I think that every reader of this blog post should forthwith contact their own constituency MP (esp Labour ones) requesting that they lobby or use what influence they have to press the government to accept the JCHR report recommendation that a public inquiry should be held to flush out the truth about government complicity in torture.

    Without this it seems that the continued descent of this country towards barbarism is likely to proceed unchecked.

  2. Johan van Rooyen

    4 Aug, 2009 - 10:40 am

    “This was entirely untrue, as our subsequent decision to ask him to give oral evidence, despite his comments, demonstrated.”

    The pathetic lack of logic in this self-serving sentence along with the rest of the weasely and, as you point out, contradictory paragraph from which it comes is really a total vindication of your efforts.

    Slowly but surely the truth is beginning to embed itself in the public’s mind and in the public record. Well done, Craig!

  3. Jon

    4 Aug, 2009 - 10:56 am

    Craig, I believe you were going to look further into the claims that Dismore visited the Uzbek embassy. Did you discover anything?

    I wholeheartedly endorse the congratulations from actgreen and Johan; slowly the wheels are turning, and perhaps now their torture policy will start to get embarrassing for government ministers. Perhaps they are hoping for the process to go so slowly that they will be out on their political ear before they are discredited by the exposure.

  4. Stevie

    4 Aug, 2009 - 11:06 am

    Good progress and the Committee did well to resist some of the pressures they must have been under from senior Ministers. Apparently using evidence gained from torture will make us all safer? Well that was the FCO line on Radio 4 this morning. It certainly doesn’t make me feel safer. I guess they will already be plotting the next supposed terrorist scare as they scramble to justify their actions and distract from this shocking news…

  5. cassiel

    4 Aug, 2009 - 11:28 am

    For what it’s worth, you got a brief but favourable name-check in the Today Programme’s 8:10 interview on the subject – probably worth digging out via podcast or iPlayer.

  6. ingo

    4 Aug, 2009 - 12:19 pm

    For all its worth, just posted this little snippet on the BBC’s website, not that it will appear, our loveys are just too much into each other.

    Well done Craig, where was/is Chloe Smith on this one???

    It is clear from this report issued today, that Andrew Dismore did not declare his connections and collaborations with the Uzbek Government, he should resign now.

    Equally David Milliband, his refusal to come before the board and answer questions thrown up by Craig Murrays evidence is damning to say the least, both have been lying and should go, honour does not even come into it, both turned democracy into dirty mud.

  7. Mary

    4 Aug, 2009 - 12:22 pm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8182000/8182865.stm

    The link to the interview on Radio 4 Today with Andrew Dismore and Ivan Lewis, in which Ivan Lewis failed to answer the question ‘Is the Government complicit in torture?’ and kept the NuLabour line.

    You can hold your head up high Craig.

  8. mary

    4 Aug, 2009 - 12:25 pm

    Has Eddie gone on his hols or are his services no longer needed by his employers now that the NN by-election is over?

  9. mary

    4 Aug, 2009 - 12:31 pm

    They also took evidence on a British national who claims he was tortured in an Egyptian jail while being asked questions which can only have come from UK intelligence, and heard from Craig Murray, the former Ambassador to Uzbekistan, about his *belief* that Britain received intelligence obtained by torture in jails in that country.

    The report did not pass judgment on individual cases. It noted that there was no allegation of direct involvement by British agents in torture, but said that complicity alone would be a clear breach of the UK’s obligations under international human rights treaties.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6738381.ece

    Craig only has a ‘belief’ according to Murdoch’s Times. FFS he actually has the evidence.

  10. MJ

    4 Aug, 2009 - 12:45 pm

    “our subsequent decision to ask him to give oral evidence, despite his comments”

    Despite? “Because of” would probably be more accurate. If it wasn’t for Craig’s robust campaigning on this site and the vigorous response of many of his readers, I suspect he would never have made it to the JCHR.

  11. Ed

    4 Aug, 2009 - 12:45 pm

    “Not that I believe a public inquiry will achieve much”

    Indeed. This is a matter for the DPP, no more, no less. And if NuLab continue to go about suppressing evidence and obstructing justice, then we have criminal statutes already on the books to deal with this too.

    Complicity in torture is a crime, Binyam Mohamed – for example – was tortured, there’s very little still in dispute so this should be right up the DPP’s alley.

    A public inquiry could probably only serve to fudge the discovery process, where the full scope of the Blair torture policy could be brought to light.

  12. Paul

    4 Aug, 2009 - 1:26 pm

    It is funny to hear when the British government says that it does not “support or condone torture”. The Uzbek regime has been torturing it’s opponents ever since Mr Karimov came to power in 1989. This is well documented by the UN officials. Yet, most of the information received from Uzbeks and used by the British services about (mainly) Hizb-ut-Tahrir activity were obtained by torturing the victims or their family members in Uzbekistan. They knew it in London. Anyone who speaks up against the brutal regime or its policy in Uzbekistan can turn up to be a terrorist or extremist. Fabricated accusations would depict a picture describing muslims as an army of unbeatable terrorists willing to blow the whole Central Asian region which would in the end affect the British interests. And this kind of picture would be passed on to some MPs or members of government offices to lobby interests of Uzbekistan in order to minimise the criticism to the address of a most brutal dictator of modern times. Someone here says how we can prove that Dismore had meetings with Uzbek Embassy officials. It is hard to get the minutes of meeting from Uzbek Embassy. However, it might be possible to ask revelation of daily commitments of Mr Dismore for 2002-2003 and the content of discussions or materials that were passed on to him.

  13. gremlins3

    4 Aug, 2009 - 1:53 pm

    In the Today interview, Dismore also took up one of Craig’s main points that we were effectively creating a market for torture. Well done Craig.

    How fashionable it is in weasel-speak at the moment to trot out the phrase “balance xxx (bad thing you’ve been found out doing) against yyy (threat, whether related or not) … Sure enough out came Ivan Lewis with it: obviously not a situation where legal or moral absolutes are too convenient.

    Dismore to his credit was quick to rebut Lewis’ arguments, and much more succinctly (imho); he even mentioned Craig’s documentary evidence in countering the argument that Milliband and other senior officials have nothing to say.

  14. Craig

    4 Aug, 2009 - 2:46 pm

    gremlins3

    Yes, I was surprised and impressed by Dismore.

  15. Clark

    4 Aug, 2009 - 2:48 pm

    Well done Craig,

    I think it was in Murder in Samarkand that you wrote “just keep chipping away, eventually the marble will crack” or something similar. Well the cracks really are starting to show, aren’t they?

    If they offered you your old job back, would you take it? I suppose it might be a way of silencing your blog!

  16. Clark

    4 Aug, 2009 - 2:58 pm

    Maybe Andrew Dismore really hadn’t connected his support for the Uzbek government with the atrocities being committed. Thinking in a conveniently compartmentalised manner is something we should all be careful about. We’re only little; we usually have to deliberately look to see the big picture.

  17. anticant

    4 Aug, 2009 - 3:30 pm

    Craig, you have been endorsed as a convincing witness and that is a big feather in your cap. Don’t sour your victory by carping at Dismore and others. You are the guy who has punched the first hole in this granite wall of lies, and it is only a matter of time before decent opinion will demand and get a full enquiry.

    Your bitterness at the atrocious way you have been mistreated in the past is understandable, but having stuck stoutly to your guns it is well to remember the old North Country saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

  18. Paul Jakma

    4 Aug, 2009 - 3:42 pm

    Well done Craig! Don’t mind the biters. FWIW, I’m selfishly glad we havn’t lost you to Norwich.

    PS: There seems to be some problems with the HTML of your post – the links in particular don’t seem to be well-formed (it confuses my RSS reader).

  19. Polo

    4 Aug, 2009 - 3:52 pm

    @Mary

    That interview was a beautiful piece of radio, for which thanks. Bears relistening to many times and says it all.

    Compared with the slitherings of the Milliband poodle Lewis, Dismore sounds like a saint, even if like St. Augustine this was imposed on him at an inopportune time.

    @Craig

    You’ve pierced the armour. The death blow cannot be too far away.

    Who is the BBC lady? That sounded like a real BBC interview from long ago. I hope she has a long term contract with Auntie.

  20. ingo

    4 Aug, 2009 - 4:06 pm

    I agree with all the comments above, getting Andrew Dismore to eat his own proverbials and even taking up Craigs descriptive words is great news.

    Revelations abroad and here about matching maroccan visits, as much as the vociferous spam atttacks on this site, something one should see as deliberate and planned, all this makes it apparent that the cover is slowly pulled over their feet, soon they will be staring at their naked selfs and have to admite collusion in torture, who knows, they might have even ordered it.

    If Dr. Kelly was not tortured by whatever was administered to him before he died, what was it, a failed attempt to safe his life? tell me another one.

  21. Polo

    4 Aug, 2009 - 4:08 pm

    If they believe, as they do, that torture is justified to protect the citizenry, they should say it openly.

    It is precisely what they are saying, if you listen carefully, and translate into the King’s english (which has unfortunately become a bit devalued under the Queen, whom may God bless otherwise).

  22. ingo

    4 Aug, 2009 - 4:12 pm

    Forgot to say, this is a small milestone in the history of GB torture Inc. and you should you feel like celebrating at any point within the next 24 hours, let me know where and when…(:-)

  23. George Laird

    4 Aug, 2009 - 6:11 pm

    Dear Craig

    Another interesting piece.

    I am not surprised that New Labour Ministers haven’t come forward to give evidence.

    It speaks volumes of what Labour really thinks about the Human Rights agenda.

    Yours sincerely

    George Laird

    The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

  24. logosity

    4 Aug, 2009 - 6:20 pm

    At last! The report makes for heartening reading. In particular item 56 is a strong criticism of the government’s evasion, and shows the strong influence you had on their reasoning.

    It seemed to me at the time that Evan Harris’s grilling was chiefly designed to test the committee’s footing should they be challenged on the facts. They were clearly listening attentively, although they may have seemed unduly dismissive.

    The criticisms in the report about the attacks on their impartiality via this blog are worth taking on board IMHO – although they’re well out of place in that medium. It’s true that sometimes you have to shout insults to get attention, but I thought the display of open contempt was potentially counter-productive. Experienced solicitors learn to temper their client’s attack, so that a serious grievance cannot be dismissed as rampant paranoia. And I think the JCHR report will serve this purpose for you now, presenting you as a reliable witness without exposing you to dismissive counterattack. It’s a good step towards getting the establishment to actually listen this time.

    So there are many reasons to celebrate. I’m off to a party tonight and I’ll raise a glass for you. To justice!

  25. mary

    4 Aug, 2009 - 6:38 pm

    The link to the report without the watermarks

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200809/jtselect/jtrights/152/152.pdf

    A snip at £17.50!

  26. David McKelvie

    4 Aug, 2009 - 8:03 pm

    Well, Miliband seems to have pissed off the Law Lords over the Binyam Mohammed Case and Hillary’s threats, so that Lord Justice Thomas stated in no uncertain terms that to suppress evidence of torture is a criminal offence in Britain. It would be nice to see at least one of these political pymies, as you so aptly termed them, carted off to the chowky.

  27. Shuggie

    4 Aug, 2009 - 10:35 pm

    The whole ‘Operation Crevice’/fertiliser/’Ministry of Sound’ bomb plot case was built on the ‘evidence’ obtained through the torture of _Salahuddin Amin_ & on the ‘evidence’ provided by Al’Qaida ‘supergrass’ Mohammed Junaid Babar.

    On 16th December 2005, a court hearing ruled over requests by The Times, Guardian & the BBC, with the result that an injunction was then placed on the open reporting of the Operation Crevice evidence.

    See http://tinyurl.com/m3xdof

    The Judge ruled that the “court will sit _in camera_ for those parts of the trial and the pre-trial process during which there is any evidence given or any reference made to evidence, information or argument which relates to the material disclosed by the prosecution” (i.e that obtained by the torture of “SA” – Salahuddin Amin)

    Why did this happen? According to the judge, “the grave risk to national security at the present time from potential acts of terrorism and the likely obstruction both to the identification of perpetrators and to the bringing to justice those who are identified are so real that an exceptional course is justified”

    The British War of/on Terror is built on torture.

  28. Ruth

    5 Aug, 2009 - 12:14 am

    It appears to me that torture is used not for obtaining information but to force innocent people to confess to illicit actions so that the US/UK governments can parade ‘Muslim terrorists’ to put the shits up us.

  29. John Stewart

    5 Aug, 2009 - 9:31 am

    It seems you may have a point about Lord Taylor of Blackburn, Jack Straw and EDS.

    Check out this story it is a scandal yet to break:

    http://welfarereformbill.blogspot.com/2009/08/eds-jack-straw-lord-taylor-british.html

  30. dreoilin

    5 Aug, 2009 - 9:45 am

    Sorry for the OT, but this is relevant to the whole ‘GWOT’ thing, and I haven’t seen it reported anywhere in these islands.

    “Blackwater Founder Implicated in Murder”

    http://tinyurl.com/n2xnbz

    Not only implicated in murder, but according to the accusations, saw himself as a Christian Crusader, who wanted to kill as many Muslims as possible in Iraq, and employed people who were mentally unfit to be allowed to handle lethal weapons. Oh, and apparently he was also into arms smuggling. It’s shocking. And I haven’t seen one word reported in the UK or Irish media.

    BushCo unleashed this crowd in Iraq.

    And I’m still getting the same drivel on US blogs: “they hate us because of our freedom”.

    Craig,

    Well done — Dismore is even using your terminology, if I remember correctly: “Creating a market”. I think Dismore finds he has to agree with you, even if he doesn’t like you personally. They (idiots like Lewis) can’t keep up this obfustication much longer. Or treat their audience like morons. It’s not what they say but what they don’t say that is glaringly obvious to all.

  31. anticant

    5 Aug, 2009 - 10:48 am

    “They hate us because of our freedom”. The trouble is, lots of people – especially in America – honestly believe this tripe. They have to; otherwise, their rose-tinted view of the world would be shattered and they might even have to realise that they could be wrong, which would never do.

  32. Andrew

    5 Aug, 2009 - 1:14 pm

    Congratulations Craig! Its getting there.

  33. tony_opmoc

    5 Aug, 2009 - 3:21 pm

    This is a massive victory for Craig Murray, and far more important than a by-election result.

    Your evidence has been taken extremely seriously, because they know its true. Their attempts to criticise you at a personal level for what you write here on your blog are absolutely hilarious. In this instance they are behaving like a bunch of 14 year olds at a debating society, saying that Snotty Murray has been accusing us of not keeping to the rules – and WE are going to show him – by dragging him in for interrogation. Of course if Snotty Murray hadn’t been snotty – he would have been totally ignored.

    Well Done Craig. You’re a hero. They have to take you seriously now. Your actions have almost certainly already saved numerous people from brutal torture, and THAT is by far the most important Result of Your Actions.

    I just hope the REAL perpertrators at the Top of the decision making process – are not only cowering in remorse, but also worried sick about being Prosecuted and JAILED. You have made this possibility far more likely.

    Thank You So Very Much,

    Tony

  34. George Dutton

    5 Aug, 2009 - 4:34 pm

  35. Polo

    5 Aug, 2009 - 5:28 pm

    @dreoilin @tony_opmoc

    Bush actually identified the aggression as a crusade in the early days before the penny, sort of, dropped.

    I assume when Dismore speaks at the moment it is as chair of the Committee and he has to reflect the Committe consensus in some way as opposed to his own personal views. Stiff upper lip, old chap. I love it. St. Augustine doesn’t even half tell it.

    The incompetent Lewis, in all his wrigglings, has blown the gaff. Listen again. Torture is justified to protect the citizenry, but I can’t say this openly, or I would embarrass my boss and we might be thrown out of the UN – God forbid”

    Am I committing a sin in taking pleasure in his bureaucratic evasions? If so, half a Hail Mary should sort it out.

    Craig, take heart, you’re making a difference.

  36. Polo

    5 Aug, 2009 - 6:04 pm

    For those not familiar with the idiom, half a Hail Mary is the equivalent, in confessional penitential terms, of a halfpenny award in a libel case.

  37. tony_opmoc

    5 Aug, 2009 - 6:06 pm

    According to the New American – a publication I know nothing about – in its article “Communism Still Stands in the “Stans”" published today…

    “The U.S. government used Uzbekistan as a location for its “extraordinary rendition” program for terrorism suspects in the years after 9/11, but after British Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray exposed some of the worst forms of torture in human history, even the Bush administration ceased using Uzbekistan as a destination for U.S. detainees.”

    What the hell are all our other Diplomats doing across the World? Are they all afraid of getting fired for doing their jobs properly and standing up against blatant EVIL?

    My uncle used to be in the diplomatic service, though he retired about 40 years ago. He was both a Gentleman and a man of Integrity. He would be rolling in his grave if he knew the appalling levels to which the Country he was very proud of has sunk.

    He would however, definitely buy Craig Murray a drink.

    Tony

  38. John D. Monkey

    6 Aug, 2009 - 11:01 am

    Polo

    Ivan Lewis is not incompetent, he’s actually one of the more intelligent and thoughtful of the New Labour lot. But he is first and foremost a careerist, as are almost all government ministers, and he’s spouting this crap because it’s his job, not his view. He was probably reading from a brief. Politics is like that.

    To hear him trotting out the government line (straight out of “1984″ – war is peace, torture is protection, etc.) therefore saddens but doesn’t surprise me.

    Plus ca change…

  39. MJ

    6 Aug, 2009 - 12:14 pm

    “They hate us because of our freedom”. The trouble is, lots of people – especially in America – honestly believe this tripe.

    anticant: but it’s not tripe, it’s perfectly true. They do hate us and our freedoms. The perpetrators of 9/11 are the very same people who are conducting the “war on terror”. With the Patriot Act in the US and the various “anti-terror” legislation over here they are doing their utmost to destroy our freedoms – and with no little success.

  40. anticant

    6 Aug, 2009 - 3:25 pm

    I entirely agree. We are a lot less free than we were before 9/11, for the reasons you state – more’s the pity.

    My point was that it’s rubbish to believe that those in the Muslim world who attack the West (= defend themselves) hate us because they envy our freedoms, real or imagined; we’ve given them plenty of other more solid grounds for hating us. But many Americans are utterly incapable of imagining that the whole world doesn’t wish they were Americans too. Well, I don’t for a start.

  41. watcher

    6 Aug, 2009 - 9:55 pm

    I’ve just seen that the ACLU is also running a Tortured Logic campaign:

    http://www.aclu.org/torturedlogic/

    Perhaps with both these things happening concurrently, it might make an impact both sides of the Atlantic?

  42. dreoilin

    7 Aug, 2009 - 12:34 am

    “But many Americans are utterly incapable of imagining that the whole world doesn’t wish they were Americans too. Well, I don’t for a start.”–anticant

    Nor do I. But they refuse to believe me. (They’re inculcated with that stuff from birth and all through schooling, if you ask me.) Finally, I asked them what they had that I hadn’t. I was given a long list.

    One by one I demonstrated that we have the same if not better — e.g. worldwide we’re ranked higher than they are in press freedom, education, and health care. Finally one item remained.

    They are allowed to keep guns and we’re not.

    (As far as I know, there are 30,000 gun-deaths per year in the US.)

  43. anticant

    7 Aug, 2009 - 8:10 am

    On holiday in Italy a couple of years ago there was nearly a lynching party when a large loud-mouthed American tourist announced: “Well, we don’t care about anyone else. We’re SAFE under the American flag!”

  44. John D. Monkey

    7 Aug, 2009 - 10:35 am

    dreolin

    I love the USA but don’t think I will ever understand how it “ticks”.

    You have to spend a long time there to appreciate the place guns have in the national consciousness. It goes well beyond any rational explanation I can detect, and is deeply embedded in their history and social / legal structures.

    This is puzzling to the rest of us, as the people of the USA are incredibly friendly, helpful and open; they just seem to take the ominpresence of guns for granted in the same way we europeans view the need to minimise their place in our socieites.

    The text and interpretation of the Second Amendment (the right to bear arms) is still fiercely argued over by the different lobbies. Whatever the merits of these arguments, however, the fact is that it would now be impossible effectively to control or limit gun ownership as it is so widespread.

    Your figure is broadly correct. Up-to-date figures are hard to come by, but in 2001 there were 29,573 recorded deaths from firearms – suicide 16,869; homicide 11,348; accident 802; legal intervention 323; undetermined 231. (CDC, 2004)

    The surprising stat from this is the relatively small number of deaths from accidents, but this probably reflects under-recording, especially as about 200,000 people are injured with firearms every year.

    On your wider point, I’m not sure that many “ordinary” US citizens (as opposed to those who do engage in politics and foreign affairs) give any thought as to whether the rest of the world wants to be Americans. They know very little about the rest of the world (the news media carries very little foreign news unless it relates directly to the USA), and care even less. The USA is so huge it’s almost a world in itself.

    Inasmuch as they think about these things at all, I suspect they are not worried either way what the rest of the world thinks about them, as they think the rest of the world is unimportant.

    And if they do think about it, some I have spoken to seem to be rather proud of this as it demonstrates that the USA is special: at times it’s a bit like the Millwall Syndrome (“no-one likes us, we don’t care”).

  45. dreoilin

    7 Aug, 2009 - 11:51 am

    “as they think the rest of the world is unimportant”–John D

    And that’s what I find sickening, frankly.

    Everything you’ve mentioned fits what I know of the USA, although I’ve never set foot in the place. The ignorance combined with arrogance that I’ve met online has put me off for life. (Despite the fact that, being Irish, I have no less than 21 first cousins there.)

  46. dreoilin

    7 Aug, 2009 - 11:56 am

    As I understand it the 2nd Amendment was to allow for armed militias, in case the Gov’t got too big for its boots or went off the rails. It wasn’t designed for individuals to keep assault rifles in their wall cabinets …

    If it was used as intended, perhaps the USA wouldn’t be in the government-by-corporation mess it’s in now.

  47. John D. Monkey

    7 Aug, 2009 - 1:36 pm

    dreolin

    I’ve travelled a lot in the USA and despite its insularity it’s a wonderful country. Don’t take the arrogant online neo-con trolls as representative of the US generally.

    That insularity is not sickening in my view, just sad. As I said, individual UAS citizens are some of the nicest people you’ll meet anywhere in the world; I would point mainly to their education system and the influnce of religion for the character of the USA as a nation.

    I have read a fair bit about the subject and I conclude that the critical bit in the Second Amendment ought to be the meaning of the word “infringed”. And while I’m not a scholar of 18th century legalese, as I understand it “infringed” meant at the time “not UNREASONABLY constrained”. So my interpretation of the text is that any Government controls on arms should be reasonable. That then gets you into what’s reasonable, but the NRA and others have cut off discussion of this line of thought…

    As I implied, it’s far to late for the USA to change all this even if there was a will to, which there isn’t. There are far too many weapons around and tens of thousands (millions?) of people who agree with Charlton Heston and the NRA: “you’ll get my gun out of my cold, dead hand.”

  48. dreoilin

    7 Aug, 2009 - 3:39 pm

    “That insularity is not sickening in my view, just sad.”–John D

    We’ll have to agree to disagree, John. Their insularity leads to the kind of discussion (including among Democrats) that I’ve seen online regarding loss of life in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They talk about “deaths” of around 4,000 “people” in Iraq, and don’t bother mentioning (when it hasn’t been mentioned previously in the discussion, either) that they’re talking about American lives only. That’s sick in my view. Any reference to lives lost is in the (unspoken) context that they’re talking about Americans. And they can brush off any other deaths because as you said earlier, “they think the rest of the world is unimportant”.

    The NRA is welcome to promote their agenda. If they want to keep guns and kill each other off, it’s not my concern. It’s hardly a human rights issue – except for those on the receiving end who may think they have a right to live without the fear of a neighbour having a bad day and shooting up the local school.

  49. anticant

    7 Aug, 2009 - 3:51 pm

    ‘It’s a bit like the Millwall Syndrome (“no-one likes us, we don’t care”)’.

    I think it’s rather the opposite – more “we’re such lovely people that anyone who knows us couldn’t possibly not like us”.

    Many Americans ARE lovely people – I’ve had some charming and warmhearted American friends – but it takes a great deal to dent their too-rosy image of themselves, which is why so many Americans simply refuse to believe that dishonest, wicked or cruel things are done in their name (e.g. G.W. Bush saying after Abu Ghraib “This isn’t the America I know”).

    The problem is that whichever party is in office American government, business and finance are run by ruthless people who feel able to ride roughshod over the aspirations of the majority who genuinely want a better world for themselves and others.

    The crucial issue for democracy is how to make the voices of the ‘little people’ who are in fact the majority count, both in the US and the UK. That is why it is so important to get an effective hearing for many more independent voices like Craig’s.

  50. John D. Monkey

    7 Aug, 2009 - 3:59 pm

    Happy to agree to disagree.

    But I wouldn’t judge a nation of 300 million people on the basis of the contributers to an online discussion.

    We in the UK are not exactly paragons – look how much attention we (rightly) pay to the deaths of our own armed forces – but how little to the hundreds of Afghans that are also being killed weekly. And even the head of the Taliban presumably had family and loved ones…

    Sure the US are worse than us in this respect, but no-one is immune from “small earthquake in China, only 5,00 dead” news values. Focus on your own family, then village, county, country etc. is a pan-human trait.

  51. dreoilin

    7 Aug, 2009 - 4:27 pm

    John,

    It’s not “on the basis of the contributers to an online discussion”.

    It’s ten years of activism online, including on group blogs with American activists. And although I haven’t been there, my offspring have, and they walked out of “excellent” corporate jobs (with all the $$$ and perks) to live and work elsewhere, because they couldn’t stand the culture.

  52. dreoilin

    7 Aug, 2009 - 4:38 pm

    “look how much attention we (rightly) pay to the deaths of our own armed forces”

    I know about that, John, but I’m not in the UK and I’m not British. I tend to focus globally.

  53. John D. Monkey

    7 Aug, 2009 - 5:48 pm

    Anticant

    “The crucial issue for democracy is how to make the voices of the ‘little people’ who are in fact the majority count, both in the US and the UK”.

    Agreed, but we have never had real democracy (= government by the people) anywhere in the world. No UK government in modern times has had a majority of the votes cast, let alone of the electorate. And Obama’s “landslide” came from 53% of the votes on a turnout of 63% of registered voters, in turn only about 80% of adults (i.e active support of about 26%, roughly the same as supported Labour at the last UK general election.)

    I have no answer to this conundrum, and suspect no-one else does either! But modern technology COULD make genuine participative democracy possible in a country like the UK – you’d give a secure voting handet (mobile phone based?) to all citizens over 18, or something like that.

  54. anticant

    7 Aug, 2009 - 6:43 pm

    The problem is the ignorance and apathy of large swathes of the electorate in all countries, not least those with a reasonably honest voting system (and ours is very flawed).

    Even if one used modern technology to make participation easier – which is desirable, I agree – how do you motivate to electorate to be interested in politics or to want to vote? Somehow they have to be convinced that voting is not merely a duty, but is in their own best interests. Making voting compulsory would be wrong in principle and wouldn’t work in practice.

    So, like you, I have no easy answer. We just have to slog on with blogging, personal discussion and so on, and little by little the public’s political consciousness will be raised. The low turnout at the recent Norwich North by-election was not, I believe, because people weren’t interested, but because they were turned off by all the main political parties after the expenses scandal and so forth, and as Craig and other independents experienced, the media conspired to ensure that their dissenting voices weren’t given a fair airing.

  55. mary

    10 Aug, 2009 - 7:11 am

    Sir John Scarlett now comes into the NuLabour offensive following Miliband and Johnson at the weekend. Craig’s evidence is not referred to.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8188307.stm

    MI6 ‘is not complicit’ in torture

    By Gordon Corera

    BBC Security Correspondent

    Sir John Scarlett formerly chaired the Joint Intelligence Committee (photo)

    The head of MI6 has told the BBC there is no torture and “no complicity in torture” by the British secret service.

    Sir John Scarlett said his officers were committed to human rights and liberal democracy, but also had to protect the UK against terrorism.

    There has been growing concern about the role of the intelligence services in the mistreatment of suspects abroad.

    The Joint Human Rights Committee of MPs and peers recently called for an independent inquiry into the matter.

    In a highly critical report, the committee said there was now a “disturbing number of credible allegations” of British complicity in torture.

    These allegations include the rendition and alleged abuse of British resident Binyam Mohamed from Pakistan to Morocco, prior to being taken to Guantanamo Bay.

    However, the committee said it was unable to draw conclusions about the involvement of British officers because ministers and the head of the domestic security service MI5 refused to testify at parliamentary hearings on the claims.

    The Metropolitan Police are investigating the role of MI5 in Mr Mohamed’s case.

    Meanwhile, the Foreign Affairs Select Committee has also said it has grave concerns that British officers were complicit in torture.

    Independence

    Speaking on BBC Radio 4′s programme MI6: A Century in Shadows, Sir John Scarlett defended the actions of his organisation, the Secret Intelligence Service or MI6.

    “Our officers are as committed to the values and the human rights values of liberal democracy as anybody else,” he said.

    “They also have the responsibility of protecting the country against terrorism and these issues need to be debated and understood in that context,” he added.

    He denied that British intelligence services had been compromised by their close relationship with counterparts in the US.

    “Our American allies know that we are our own service, that we are here to work for the British interests and the United Kingdom. We’re an independent service working to our own laws – nobody else’s – and to our own values.”

    He insisted there has been “no torture and there is no complicity with torture”.

    ‘No regrets’

    Sir John also discussed the controversy over the reliability of intelligence about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction.

    At the time, he was the chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, which had ownership of the 2002 dossier which contained the controversial claim that Saddam Hussein would be able to deploy weapons of mass destruction “within 45 minutes”.

    The newly launched Iraq Inquiry is expected to revisit the question of how the intelligence was presented in the dossier.

    Citing the earlier Butler inquiry’s findings on the matter, Sir John acknowledged that “a number of the reports and reporting lines proved to be unreliable and had to be withdrawn”.

    “This of course is a regular issue in any kind of intelligence work and if you have lines, reporting chains if you like, then of course there are issues about how you validate them,” he said.

    Sir John said he had no regrets over the issue, but conceded that the episode had been “a difficult time for the service”.

    He will step down as the head of MI6 in November.

    ——————————————————————————–

    MI6: A Century in the Shadows is a three part series for Radio 4.

    The final episode, New Enemies, will be broadcast on Monday 10 August at 0900 BST and 2130 BST or listen again via iPlayer.

  56. Polo

    11 Aug, 2009 - 1:41 pm

    I see the UK Parliament’s Justice Committee is embarking on a brief enquiry into the role of the Justice Ministry wrt the Crown Dependencies.

    http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/justice/jsc050809pn48.cfm

    I wonder if Jack Straw will appear? No prizes.

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