Watching Brown at PMQ today, and his subsequent statement on Afghanistan, I kept asking myself “Does he actually believe this?”

And the really dreadful thing is, I think he does.

It’s the “preventing terrorism on UK streets” that’s really holding it together.

This is the argument that needs to be dismantled, and this is where people like me who feel it’s wrong in our gut look to people like you to articulate an opposing argument.

The Battle of Maiwand – 1880 – is apparently talked about by Afghans in rather the same way we refer to Agincourt and Waterloo…

Anyways, there was an excellent article recently by Andrew Bacevich, a US military historian, on Afghanistan. Although written for a US audience, all of the arguments could apply just as easily to us.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/10/11/afghanistan___the_proxy_war/

I went into a public-’ouse to get a pint o’ beer,

The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”

The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,

I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:

O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;

But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,

They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;

They sent me to the gallery or round the music-’alls,

But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!

For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;

But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,

The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,

O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.

Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;

An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit

Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.

Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”

But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,

The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,

O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.

We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,

But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;

An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,

Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;

While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,

But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,

There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,

O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.

You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:

We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.

For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”

But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;

An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;

An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

- Rudyard Kipling

Sorry to plug my blog again but this pulls together several of the themes here. http://tinyurl.com/yzq5cvb . The ‘Point-Click-Kill Brigade’

As for Kipling’s “…You bet that Tommy sees!”. I’m not so sure. Granted he sees politicians for what they are and he is quite rightly sensitive to public hypocrisies and their relationships with him. He still NEEDS to believe he’s fighting for something worthwhile though. Which explains the constant drip-feed, about the nobility of his sacrifices from both politicians and General This and Colonel That – how we must ‘stay the course helping the Afghans’ and other such ‘uplifting’ pseudo-patriotic drivel.

Personally I doubt he fully comprehends the magnitude and extent of the lies he is being told about the real reasons for his presence in Afghanistan. In fact I doubt many people do. There is just too big a psychological need to believe we are the good guys.

Brown so ably supported by Cameron (I can so bigger cuts than you) and Clegg (I want to be Prime Minister), the latter asking for a war cabinet of all parties. That’s the only way he’ll get an entrance into No.10.

Total cant and hypocrisy following that displayed at last week’s service for the dead military in Iraq at St Paul’s.

Who will be the last man standing in Afghanistan this time? Remember Dr William Brydon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_influence_in_Afghanistan

I should imagine that the soil and dust of Afghanistan are very rich in iron from all the blood that has been spilled over the centuries.

Off topic.

Came across this…

http://tinyurl.com/yzmjffe

Three cheers for this. Why are you not spokesperson for Stop the War?

Yet Afghanistan is the one recent defencive war where we, or at least our ally, were attacked. And how many now expressing doubts expressed them when, a month after 9/11 NATO first took over? And how many of them were also against Iraq? And how many of them at the time opposed bombing Yugoslav hospitals to help peoplle known to be gangsters, drug dealers, sex slavers & organ leggers involved in a NATO organised campaign to racial genocide.

Because not a single person who did not oppose all of the above can claim that current oppositio9n to the Afghan afair involves the slightest trace of concern about principle or human decency. They are simply & purely running scared.

The fact is that though the Afghan war is being fought very badly & on the enemies terms we know that we are capable of easily defeating them because we did & we know that it is simply impossible for the Taliban to win because even before we were involved they were unable to fully defeat the northern alliance.

Interesting posts about Afghanistan and cannot help but throw my oar in here.

I worked and lived in Afghanistan between 1990.2000, at the time of the Taliban.

I got to know many Afghans and thier families, and was friendly with the then Foreign Minister, Haji Mutawakhil (excuse spelling)

The Afghan mentality to what they see as foreign invaders is rooted in thier history..they beat us, they beat the Russians and they will not give up until we and the Americans leave, it is simply a matter of national psyche, they believe they will beat us again and eventually we will go away.

I agree with Craig and many posters here..how many body bags are we supposed to send over until we realise we simply cannot win ?

I certainly cannot remember voting as to wether we should go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and if I missed the vote, please someone enlighten me.

@Frazer The nation voted Bliar back in after he had launched an illegal war.

“Yet Afghanistan is the one recent defencive war where we, or at least our ally, were attacked”.

Utter crap. The USA was attacked by a handful of individuals, most (if not all, from memory) of Saudi extraction. Osama bin Laden explicitly rejected responsibility for the attack, and the Afghan government had nothing to do with him either – except that he happened to be in their country. As an honoured guest, indeed, as he and the other mujahideen (together with the CIA) had helped the Afghans defeat the Russian invaders not long before.

The Afghan war is defensive in exactly the same sense that Hitler’s invasion of Poland was defensive.

“And how many now expressing doubts expressed them when, a month after 9/11 NATO first took over? And how many of them were also against Iraq? And how many of them at the time opposed bombing Yugoslav hospitals to help peoplle known to be gangsters, drug dealers, sex slavers & organ leggers involved in a NATO organised campaign to racial genocide”.

Well I did every one of those things, loudly and clearly and without a shadow of doubt. Because all those aggressive wars were crap.

And did I take a verbal beating for saying so at the time!

brian

Thanks for the comment,unfortunatly El Tony never dropped by my place to ask me, good point though !

Tony, as I always enjoy your posts, what are your views on the conspiracy of WMD and the eyball problems of our current PM, I think we should be told !

Thank you for keeping on telling it as it is, Craig.

Never has Rudyard Kipling’s poem “The Young British Soldier” rang louder and truer;

“When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,

And the women come out to cut up what remains,

Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains

An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.”

http://hotterthanapileofcurry.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/british-soldiers-dying-in-americas-illegal-wars/

Either Brown knows it’s nonsense, in which case he’s a monster, or he believes it all in which case he’s an idiot.

Kipling’s “A Dead Statesman”

I could not dig

I dared not rob

Therefore I lied to please the mob

Now all my lies are proved untrue

And I must face the men I slew

What tale will serve me here, among

Mine angry and defrauded young

The most idiotic, hypocritical, piece of bombastic nonsense I heard coming out of my TV in recent days was Bob Ainsworth telling some interviewer that “We have to train the Afghan forces to defend their country.”

(from invasion by, er … )

And as for Afghanistan, that poor suffering country, I am amazed that Tom got “verbal bashings” for opposing it. Precisely one person I knew was in favour of it, and his daughters thought he was mad. At the first anti war march 8 years ago this week, everyone really thought the government could be stopped. Even though, looking back, they’d already been bombing Kabul for 6 days. But apart from deluded MP’s and a few bizarre journalists, some of whom have now apologised, most people were not in favour of this wanton, brutal attack on an already devastated country. Generals, bishops, careworkers, the church, economists; they all came out against it. Remember?

Frazer,

I am not sure if your question is addressed to me but as regards your question of the “conspiracy of WMD”, well I used a simple search engine – it may even have been Google to find numerous links to US/UK Government and UN websites that proved all parties knew that IRAQ had been disarmed of WMD’s. This was before the Iraq War had started. I posted the results on what was then an exceedingly active website for anyone interested to read. The idea that even a competent journalist couldn’t find the same information is ridiculous, let alone the US/UK Government or their Senior Politicians. I then marched down Whitehall with over 1,000,000 other people – which is the only political demonstration I have participated in – against the Iraq War, but still feel that I failed and should have done more – because over 1,000,000 completely innocent people are dead and many more had their lives ruined.

As regards Gordon Brown, and the thoughts and feelings and motivations that go through Senior Politician’s brains, well – it is extremely difficult to tell.

I even got Tony Blair and The Queen completely wrong and thought that Blair was riding the back of the Tiger George Bush, in order to prevent the Iraq War starting. How naive I was. It’s quite embarrassing in retrospect. I even thought The Queen would pull the plug on the UK’s involvement in The Iraq War, which as Head of State, she was legally entitled to do.

I don’t know if Craig has covered the case of Al Rabiah as featured on Alternet today, but what really additionally pisses me off is the sheer racism of it all.

I actually know a bloke, who has travelled extensively in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the World, often totally independently, often doing extremely good Charitable things to actually help the poorest of the poor, who could easily have been arrested and slung into some American Torture Camp, except that he is White, does not have am Islamic Name, and looks like he is a member of The SAS. I know he isn’t cos I’ve known him for more than 10 years.

As regards Gordon Brown’s eyesight, well, obviously he has a few problems in that department, but it is not that which is preventing him from doing his job properly. I think he probably means well, and unlike Blair with Bush/Cheney, hasn’t got Obama’s pole stuck up his arse – but politicians are such good liars its rather hard to tell. Obama too might mean well, but one man can only do so much, and if surrounded by such a bunch of complete arseholes, he is limited with exactly what he can achieve. I thought his Nobel Peace Prize was the biggest Piss Take in Years.

Tony

Well said, Tony, in a lot of this.

We had this “we’re fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here” crap from Bush and his henchmen when referring to invading and occupying Iraq. It’s unbelievable that someone would even think that rubbish would work in Britain.

This presupposes these jihadists would all board jumbo jets and – with their AK47s and roadside bombs assembled and ready to plant – queue patiently while going through customs at Heathrow. I suppose we’re preventing this right now by stopping them getting to Kabul International Airport.

*

Seriously though, we’ve never had a good reason to attack the Afghans. As Mr Welsh says above, most of the alleged “9/11″ hijackers were Saudis, with a couple from Yeman, UAE and Egypt if I recall. And a few more that have since turned up alive and well. None from Iraq. None from Afghanistan.

The Taliban offered to turn Bin Laden over to a third party, such as the Swiss, and asked for evidence that he was indeed behind ’9/11′:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

Strangely enough, the FBI lists the most wanted terrorists, and includes Bin Laden:

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

- but they don’t mention anything about ’9/11′. They do mention the bombing of US embassies, but not the Twin Towers.

So – why exactly are we attacking the Taliban? What have they ever done to us, other than in defense against us invaders?

-Glenn

@Glenn – can you expand? I’d like to hear a couple of succinct points that demolish the “figting them over there…” thing for my own use.

It’s not countered in the msm and has become the accepted meme, backed by comments like “the 7/7 bombers trained in Afghanistan”, no idea if that is true.

Craig.

it doesn’t matter. Allow my armchair commander proclamations some licence here…

The cannon fodder, the Great Shitish Army, fall for all the macho crap some shouty tosser barks at them from day one. They are mentally conditioned to think they will always win, and come out alive. Yeah many go out on the y go out on the battlefield and get scared but the conditioning allows them to put a brave face on it, enough to put doubts into the mind of his colleagues that perhaps these recruits are some kind of comic book warrior. Even if one confides with his peers as to his true feelings, he don’t get listened to for fear of lowering moral amongst others. High moral is vital, we all know this. It’s why politicians will lie their gonads off to make it appear as if what the arm does has no critics ?” and why there is so few prosecutions for the hideous crimes they commit. Haditha anyone?

The cannon fodder is generally pretty thick. The lads I was at school with who joined the army lusted after what they thought would be ‘respect’ for a soldier, and in most respects they were right, ‘cos the public fall for the con too. Not in my eyes though.

If this latest batch of cannon fodder haven’t the mental capacity to suss out after what, after almost 9 years now, that the war against Afghanistan is nothing but a monstrous lie (actually most of them want to believe the lie, feeding their innate racism), and what they are doing is just evil, then perhaps the ‘risks’ of their mercenaryship is not unreasonable.

Because I trust virtually nothing written in the Mainstream Press or what appears in Mainstream TV News Bulletins, it is extremely difficult to get any information whatsoever with regards to what happenned on 7/7.

All I know for certain is that a very loud explosion went off in Central London on that day, because it spooked one hell of a lot of birds – and even though I was many miles away, I witnessed the birds being spooked, before I knew anything about “the bombings” – the birds were much faster than the news.

With regards to 9/11, there is an enormous amount of data to analyse, and I personally knew people who’s very close friends and relations were personally involved.

With regards to 7/7 I know absolutely no one who knows anyone who was personally involved, though I did know someone at the time who worked for The British Transport Police.

I have absolutely no real evidence, to contradict a theory I have never ever read, but have seriously considered as a possibility myself. I won’t go into it, because I have had some contact before the event with someone who changed his job to work on anti-terrorism.

Tony

“the cannon fodder is generally pretty thick”.

yeauch what a horrible ignorant statement.

Perhaps I should clarify my post above a little in case people misinterpret my words before I have another Speckled Hen.

On the day of 9/11 I was on a Computing Course at Learning Tree International Near Euston Station…

When I got home and found what had happenned in New York, my Wife was completely distraught, because She was looking after Twin Baby Girls. She had given up her job at a Bank in Central London, to look after our Children, and applied to be a Child Minder – which took nearly a year and lots of Police and Other Checks of both of us to get approval for.

The Grandmother of The Twin Baby Girls was in one of The Twin Towers in New York when it was attacked. She phoned the Mother of the Twins – whilst she was still in one of the Buildings, after it had been attacked. For nearly 24 hours we all thought she had been killed. She escaped unharmed, but phone communication to New York was impossible.

I found myself heavily motivated to find out the truth of what had happened, but I have never joined a 9/11 Truth Movement.

Withe regards to 7/7, I know absolutely nothing, other than what is freely available for anyone to see on the Internet. If you search closely you will see convincing photographic evidence that at least one of the “victims” of 7/7 was an “actor”, and his blood and bandages were fake.

Tony

“the cannon fodder is generally pretty thick”. – Rather accurate I thought.

@brian:

Regarding “Fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here”… the entire basis of the argument is so ludicrous, it’s hard to even get a proper hold of the concept. Bush started it with his assertion that if we didn’t “fight them over there”, then they would “follow us back home”. Strange that not a single Viet-Cong did this, despite the US giving up on that assault eventually.

Obviously it’s a simplistic lie, designed to conjure up the notion of blood-thirsty Arabs chasing people up and down the street with their AK47s. Having exactly the same battles that “our boys over there” with these jihadists, but right in our own streets and city centres. And – gasp! – we’re not armed and trained like “our boys”, which makes the concept truly terrifying.

The notion of “fighting them over there” instead of here relies on an assumption that we’re engaged in a zero-sum game, that there are a specific (and limited) number of “bad guys” who will automatically attack us as their raison d’etre, and if we didn’t have targets over there for them to attack, they’d go to the trouble of coming to the UK/US to do so.

It also assumes that we have a strict either/or. Either they will _ALL_ be attacking us there, or they will ALL be coming here. A few of “them” breaking off their endless attacks on “our boys over there” is an impossibility – right? They’ve all got to stay right where they are, and fight there. Not one jihadist can be spared anywhere else, as long as “our boys” are over there.

The most intellectually dishonest part about the “fighting them over there” nostrum is that these people are only interested in killing us wherever in the world we happen to be, doubtless because “they hate our freedom” or some such nonsense. The fact that they might not like us occupying their country, killing their people and so on, must never be considered. No – they’re all evil and have no other purpose in life than killing sweet, innocent westerners (well, Americans, British and Spanish, anyway). So this limited number of terrorists must be rooted out and destroyed.

If someone puts this nonsense to you, and you don’t have the time for long discussions (or maybe they’re not capable of understanding it), just give them a few brief points:

- Why would they come here, if we weren’t occupying and blowing up their country?

- How would they come here, given most insurgents are dirt-poor and have no passport?

- Why don’t they come here anyway? After all, all our armed forces are over there, so they’d have an easy time of it

- Wouldn’t we fight an invading army? Wouldn’t we resist occupation? Why shouldn’t they?

- How come this has not happened to any of the other numerous armies who lost in Afghanistan? (eg, Russians, British…)

-Glenn

“Imbecilic” is too kind a word for the “if our brave boys weren’t fighting the cowardly Taliban over there, they’d be causing mayhem in our streets over here” thesis.

Why should they (even if they had the resources, which they don’t)? Isn’t it more than likely that all “they” want is to be left alone to live in their own country as they see fit?

If their ways of living aren’t ours, what business have we to impose our notions of “democracy” on them by force? Yes, they may treat their women abominably by our standards, but there are plenty of women – not all of them Muslims – who are being treated abominably in the UK and not nearly enough is being done about it.

We cannot force other people to be free. We need to reinforce our own freedoms.

Talk about motes and beams!

The “cannon fodder” I have met have been young, terrified, desperate, bullied, lied to, in shock, or painfully in denial. Most of them were from deprived backgrounds. Calling them “thick” – well, I suppose it’s one way of refusing to see them as human.

Tony:

I suppose you’ve read Webster Tarpley’s “9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA”? He’s a bit obsessive and way OTT in some respects – not least his paranoia about us Brits – but I think his thesis is very persuasive. I’m not a knee-jerk conspiracy theorist, but I find the official account of 9/11 impossible to swallow (as I do that of the Kennedy assassination).

In any case, the Project for the New American Century’s 1997 manifesto:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

and the fact that several of the signatories thereto went on to hold key positions in the G.W. Bush Administration is surely a smoking gun pointing towards some of the most likely instigators of a false flag terror attack intended to spark off the Middle East wars the protagonists desired.

And it was highly effective. Ever since 9/11 the lunatics have been in charge of the asylum, and we all live in a looking-glass world.

anticant,

As strange as it may seem, I have never bought a book on the subject of 9/11. I have however bought a book by Webster Tarpley, but I don’t really like his writing style. He is however a brilliant analyst and did an excellent video about Obama before he was elected President.

I also think Chalmers Johnson is a Wonderful Historical Analyst, and I have bought his latest book.

I have also seen most of a video he did in 2003.

His book makes me cry, such that I can’t finish it, because I have worked with lots of Americans who I loved and respected.

Tony

anticant,

By the way, I know you are only a young lad, but I still have enormous respect for you.

My Mum was as bright as a button at the age of 79 and taking up paragliding…

Her short term memory went a bit before she died at the age of 86, but she could remember everything about her childhood in intimate detail and have long completely eloquent discussions when visited by a relative at the age of 85 who she hadn’t seen for 30 years. Our two young kids wound her up something rotten – but really it was because they really loved their Grannie and thought of her as a playmate.

My father-in-law is 86, lives in Lancashire and is complaining about a bit of backache after digging up an enormous tree, roots and all, and moving it to another part of his garden…

And my real inspiration is the guy who taught me to fly. Through a process of sheer co-incidence, I know his nephew and his niece especially, really well. He is still flying – or was last weekend. If anyone deserves a knighthood it is this guy.

I reckon he will still be flying when he is 100 years old.

He will do the most amazing inverted loop 10 feet above the Earth in his Glider and just Fly Straight Upwards in a Thermal Into The Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Piggott

Tony

Tony,

for what it’s worth, a friend of a friend of mine was in one of the carriages in which an explosion occurred on 7/7. He was injured; lost his legs and his spleen, I believe, but I’ll check.

Another friend of the same friend of mine was working in a London A&E department that day, and says they were warned to expect large numbers of casualties some minutes before the reported time of the first explosion.

Clark,

I don’t know what to believe, but one of my best friends is a Nurse, and an exceptionally highly qualified Nurse, almost to the level of my Sister.

And her entire life has been seriously threatened over the last few months. She was doing her job completely normally, doing what Senior Nurses Do when they are Practicing Rather Than Teaching.

Apparently so Claims The Direct Patient Claims No Win No Fee Merchant (We will sue the The Medical Profession on Your Behalf – and because The Judges are So Soft – We are Already Making Big Profits – and So Can You…You Get The Drift)….

I mean – her whole life is falling apart. She has done absolutely nothing wrong, and the claim wasn’t even made until 10 months after the alleged incident.) But she still has to face a Medical Tribunal and Could Lose Her Job, Her Entire Livelihood.

She is a Complete Angel and Wouldn’t Harm Anyone, But The Fascist Greedy Evil Bastards Even Go After Nurses Working For The NHS.

I Mean For Fucks Sake.

Tony

Tony – you should read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Bombings-Independent-Inquiry/dp/0715635832

Although I suggest you order it from a small bookstore rather than Amazon,

-Glenn

Trying to fathom this one:

” The fact is that though the Afghan war is being fought very badly & on the enemies terms we know that we are capable of easily defeating them because we did & we know that it is simply impossible for the Taliban to win because even before we were involved they were unable to fully defeat the northern alliance.”

The steps into Afghanistan seem to be:-

1. The then Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan.

2. The Soviets were met by a resisitance of CIA orchestrated support and funding for the Mujahadin.

3. The Soviets were defeated.

4. The US invaded on the pretext of 9/11 and set out to build an oil pipeline and dominate as an invading and occupation force ( read: forces when NATO is addded).

5. The invasion forces are sucked into a quagmire, as was Britain before (read: Kipling) and the French in Algeria and the US in Vietnam. If these examples from history are taken – I fail to see the historical evidence and/or contempoary facts to support the view:-

” we are capable of easily defeating them…”

Over to you ….comments anyone?

I think Courtenay’s analysis is where we are. In traditional style the Americans put the Taliban in power via US involvement in the Russian campaign. The Americans thought the Taliban would be controllable and a reasonable second best to some rotten dictator. When the Taliban demanded Sharia Law and turned out to be less compliant with US plans for Afghanistan, the US decided that they should really have gone for a compliant dictator – so now we have Karzai.

The war in Afghanistan is nothing about keeping or making anyone free or safe, apart from enabling and protecting this beloved pipeline as a manifestation of American power as a colonial state. One the sidelines the policy of perpetual unrest in the region helps keep the Israelis happy, and also keeps pressure on Iran, Afghanistan’s neighbour whom the Israelis despise with a vengeance.

This has nothing to do with 911 any more than Iraq did. If the US had invaded Afghanistan to root out the 911 perpetrators, they would not have done what they did, and they would not be doing what they are doing now.

Gordon Brown is doing what he is told to do – the UK is a client state.

@Glenn, thanks the one that chimes with me is

“- Why don’t they come here anyway? After all, all our armed forces are over there, so they’d have an easy time of it ”

If they wanted to come here then there’s nothing really to stop them, plenty of illegal immigrants seem to manage it at the moment. In fact I can’t understand why they’re not. Surely it would be the quickest way to turn public opinion against the war?

Tony,

I was 82 last week. I live on borrowed time. I am a Manchester man. My father’s mother was a Miss Gartside of Saddleworth, where the family roots go back hundreds of years.

Anticant’s Arena is not a “public service” blog, like Craig’s. I blog as and when I feel like it, from the perspective of someone who grew up and worked for most of my adult life in an atmosphere of generally assumed public integrity. Yes, there were a few rotten apples in the barrel: now the entire public and political arena stinks.

Webster Tarpley’s writing style is execrable – you have to force yourself to read it. But I think the things he says need to be heard and pondered on. He first became alerted to US intelligence false flag operations when he researched the 1978 murder of Aldo Moro – allegedly by the Red Brigades, but he says by CIA-instigated neo-fascists.

Yes, many Americans are lovely people but most of them are blithely unaware of how their crap government operates – especially abroad. They have this rosy delusion of themselves as God’s gift to suffering humanity. Another book worth reading is John Perkins’ “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”.

For 7/7, read Rachel North’s August post:

http://rachelnorthlondon.blogspot.com/

I was in hospital in central London when 7/7 occurred, and my partner was visiting me daily by underground. Luckily he escaped involvement, but it greatly heightened the trauma of succeeding days.

Cheers Tony, great post !

Afghanistan will sink into civil war, it is, in a way, a capitulation of policies. To arm Dostum with whatever arms he wants is a receipe for doom, giving up the initiative to a one of the biggest heroin producer there is.

I agree with Frazer, it is in the heroic psyche of Afghans that they are never to be governed by an outside influence and here lies the crux.

Our apostolation over terrorism are so far fetched and their link with Afghanistan receiding by the day. Our problems are home made, the alienation of muslims, their targetting by rightwing groups and the intelligence services is militarising many young and professional classes.

Pashtuns versus drugsmugglers is a scenario to come, despite the fact that Karzai is pashtun, his defense minister, banished to Turkey, though he didn’t go, has always kept his distance from Karzai and his clans, we knew this and are now allowing the ‘likes of BAE’ to make the deciding difference by selling arms to the worst kind.

If Karzai had to cheat in tyhe election, he must have been quiet unpopular already, this will be amplified by the vaccum of our spurious political decision making, soldiers are not in charge of this calamitee, there are too many cooks in charge of an already spoiled meal, now we are serving scraps dressed up as the real thing.

I can see Karzai being holed up in Kabul only, a few more attempts on his life are on the cards.

My neighbours son is going to Afghanistan, she had to be briefed on publicity and such, he has top spend some 700,- he hasn’t got on extra boots, warm winter moleskins.

He is very young and a good sharp shooter, he says he’s going to Masari Sharif, maybe, I dread the bad news.

He’s undertarined in my view, having spent 8 years in the german airforce, he has not been climatised of any sorts, i.e. Cyprus or kenia and he will find it hard to adjust to the rough and tumble of that war.

japan and Canada are having the right idea, they have gone down the ‘logistically only’ route, theri public pressure still works on politicians, whilst we are banging away at moronic chalk brains hell bent on making us all feel more unsafe and instabile by increasing the likelyhood of domestic terrorism.

If they are not carefull they will get what they are asking for, they going about it the right way.

Forgive my typos, I’m awefull I know…

The ‘war on terrorism’ has from the outset reminded me of Fermi’s Paradox – his logical querying of the existence of extra-terrestrial life. Given the size and age of the cosmos (he argued) the first intelligent species should already have colonised all of our galaxy. So where are they? Why don’t we see them? The US/UK ‘terrorists’ have the same ghostly quality. If Al Qaeda is a global organisation, highly motivated and highly resourced, then why am I not sitting here listening to their bombs exploding in the street outside, and that on a daily basis? The IRA managed it, after all, and they were heavily infiltrated by the security ‘services’, and financed by passing the cap round in friendly pubs. Either these arabs are piss-poor terrorists, or they don’t actually exist.

Ingo..well said !

T

Strange, I always considered “thick” as applied to humans as being a very human label identifying their rather poor level of cognitive ability.

Clearly then, in your eyes, joining an the Shittish Army for crap pay, to fight wars of lies, to kill kids, torture people, and face being killed in the height of intellectual achievement in your world, and signs of humanity.

Shouldn’t you get back to killing some babies or something?

Anti-military nonsense is not welcome here.

I have friends that are serving in Afghanistan and Iraq right now, and years ago every nearly joined up myself.

“The military is still one of the most idealistic societies we have… The interesting thing about them is that they really don’t care what my personal views are, whether I vote Democrat or Republican, or whether I like the war or don’t like the war, of if I’m a hawk or a dove. Even during the Vietnam War, what they cared about was whether I would get the story right and tell it right, work hard enough to do it and protect them in the process. And then they’ll talk. Then they’ll tell you what they think.” Seymour Hersh

Serving members of the British forces who visit this site should know that their vocation is held in respect, despite what the odd internet hippy or anonymous troll might say.

Yeah, I might even apply the word “thick” to someone who knows how to spell “cognitive” but keeps themselves sublimely unaware of the following facts:

1.The British army recruits children. You can be signed up at 15 and 3/4. You can think you’re signing up for 2 years but owing to some devilish cunning on behalf of the recruiters, end up being bonded for up to 12 years. At Ease report recruits breaking their own limbs in attempts to get out.

2. The British army actively recruit in poor and deprived areas.

3. The British army actively recruit (abandoned children) from young people’s homes, where they are encouraged to join the TA (as punishment for minor misdemeanors, for example) And, as we all know, the TA are now being sent out to fight.

They may not have had the benefit of your classical education, they may not have family to dissuade them, they may even have been under the illusion that they are heading for a fun time in the sun, thanks to the adverts and the media. I think “tragic” would cover it.

And who are you, Rob Lewis?

And how does he know what is and is not welcome here?

Tony,

my sympathy to your friend the nurse. Rules, rules, rules… They are a poor substitute for sound judgement.

Tony and Cherie Blair are both legal-eagles with backgrounds in acting / public performance (what a dangerous combination!) so maybe it’s not surprising that our society has moved in this direction. I hope that good sense prevails in your friend’s case.

Vronsky,

the contrast between this new ‘terrorism’ and the years of the IRA is a point that has struck me, too.

@ T above:

Add to that the fact that the US military has a large proportion of people who couldn’t get jobs anywhere else; that citizenship was offered as a carrot to join up for a specific period; that I read not so long ago (2 years?) that in order to improve recruitment numbers, they dropped their standards to allow in people of lower IQ, less mental and emotional stability, and some categories of criminal background – and a pack of lies told to them about Muslims – and you have a dangerous mix of non-professional soldiers.

There are many things the Army has to be ashamed of – Deepcut springs very quickly to mind. But there is an important distinction to be made between constructively criticising an institution and brazenly having a go at everyone who serves in it.

This site isn’t a platform to espouse the insulting and inherently self-inflicted view that a) soldiers are thick murderous baby killers and b) we must help the poor little darlings.

I know enough to say that young soldiers are granted far greater reponsiblity than most of their civilian peers, and while many come from “disadvantaged” backgrounds one of the attractions of signing up is that they will never be patronized by anyone again – save politicians and a certian type of liberal.

I am intrigued by the claim that squaddies are “breaking their own limbs to get out”. I would be amazed if it was true.

I agree with T and Rob Lewis – our serving soldiers deserve repect, and admiration, for their willingness to put themselves at risk on our behalf (as they believe and have been wrongly told). They may be “thick” in the sense that they come from underprivileged backgrounds, lack adequate education, and aren’t used to reasoning things out for themselves like most of the better educated folk posting here. But no-one is irredeemably stupid unless they suffer physical brain damage, and as T points out these lads have often been recruited by unscrupulous methods which are as immoral as 18th century press ganging.

I certainly respect these poor young guys whilst having nothing but contempt for the thick politicians who intone “They will never be forgotten” before rushing off to the next champagne and oysters lunch and never give “our brave boys” a second thought.

Well, be amazed then, Mr Lewis.

Otherwise, I don’t know which bits of your post to put in inverted commas. There is too much. “Far greater responsibility” – it’s true, most civilians aren’t given a gun and told to shoot people, or perhaps, torture them. Have you read the recent reports on the case brought to the High Court in London by Khuder al-Sweady and other Iraqis? “Never be patronised again”? No, just bullied, drilled and brutalised into obedience, with a military prison waiting for those who disobey.

You seem to be writing about the army from way back in the day, when the “enemy” was fairly clear cut, and official fantasies about the reality flourished. I don’t quite know why you are so insulting, but your lack of understanding suggests that you were a)quite a high ranking soldier (N Ireland?) and someone who enjoyed their time in the army, possibly before Iraq and b) have failed to talk to any recruits recently.

Otherwise, I completely agree with Seymour Hersch. There is no gap between his experiences and my own.

It was suggested to me that I visit an American website whose writers and commenters are mostly ex-American military (with a few ex-IDF thrown in, apparently). I have never seen a more vicious, bloodthirsty, or heavily racist site in my life. They loathe Obama, but *far* more to the point, they consider the Palestinian people to be sub-human and only worthy of extermination. They don’t imply this, they say so.

http://nicedoggie.net/

It’s not in isolation either. Because it’s quoted and re-quoted on other sites.

I’ve had many dealings with British soldiers as I travelled regularly on business through Northern Ireland all through the 70s and later. Checkpoints were tense and dangerous places to be, especially after an “incident” or alert.

On one occasion I caused sirens to go off, barriers to go down, my car was surrounded and weapons pointed at my head, because I did something innocent and accidentally silly as I approached a heavily armed checkpoint. I was a woman on my own, but not above suspicion because of that.

From my personal experience — and compared to SO much that I’ve read about American soldiers — there is no comparison between standards of discipline in the British military and those of the USA. As a civilian, I’d prefer to deal with British soldiers anyday, although I have to admit that I haven’t dealt personally with the Americans – just done a lot of reading.

On the topic of the intelligence of the soldier, or lack thereof, I am quite torn – the bulk of the blame needs to go to the politicians, and the policitised security services. But I sometimes stop and think why there is so little internal backlash within the army – antiwar groups in the UK are hardly inundated with war resisters willing to go public. I wonder why it is that soldiers on the ground seem to be so susceptible to patriotic propaganda, and often so lacking in understanding the atrocities of “our own side” and how the flag-waving media (The Sun) uses them for its own policy ends. Furthermore, I wonder to what degree I can hold the same soldiers responsible for these apparent gaps in thought (whilst still reserving majority blame for government types).

I had a conversation with a serving soldier once while I was leafletting a city centre about the Iraq war, and it firmly underscored these thought processes. He’d been to Iraq recently, and started off by saying he supported our stance, and that Iraq was a terrible place to have to have gone to. He’d seen body parts of children strewn on the ground, and he was clearly shaken by the experience (something that reminded me of the horrors witnessed by Americans in Vietnam, I thought, and the long-term psychological consequences of the same).

But the soldier then changed conversational tack, and insisted that “he had to have a job” – directly implying, I believed, that fighting an illegal war in which children are killed and maimed satisfied his definition of “a job”, and that anti-war protesters didn’t care about his employment situation. I was privately angry at this perspective, but the guy was clearly suffering, and it would have been cruel to have been rude to him. My gentle response, which pointed out that there are many professions that society prohibits out of a professed desire to improve conditions for people, had little impact as we parted company.

“Teenagers in the army are one and a half times more likely to commit suicide than others of the same age in the general population”

Ministry of Defence report July 2003

“More Gulf War 1 troops (107) killed themselves after returning than were actually killed in conflict (24)”.

Ministry of Defence figures

Jon, they get put through this and told they’re doing the right thing, and then they have to live with themselves. They are hung out to dry when they return.

“Returning armed sevices personnel often end up on the streets or with severe mental health problems. Thousands live rough or in sheltered accomodation”

Mental Health Foundation report, June 2003

See above.

@anticant:

Tarpley’s book is definitely worth reading, agreed, but he does have a few whacked out views (particularly while being interviewed by the publicity-desperate, unprincipled liar Alex Jones).

As far as the Red Brigade and so on is concerned, try reading “Nato’s Secret Army” by Daniele Ganser. It’s not a work of fiction. Much of the supposed left-wing terrorism since WW2 has been caused by NATO’s ‘stay-behind’ units, which were supposed to resist a USSR takeover from inside, should western countries be taken over.

They practiced assassination, sabotage and disruption – blaming it all on left wing forces.

An aside to Craig (and any techs involved with the site?):

Could comments be set up so that when one posts on a thread, one automatically gets an email notification of any further posts on that thread? As happens on other blogs/sites? It would be very useful, and make it easier to respond to people if/when they post something directed at oneself.

I’ve only known when someone asked me a question because I came back and checked all recent threads.

“The IRA managed it, after all, and they were heavily infiltrated by the security ‘services’, and financed by passing the cap round in friendly pubs.”

–Vronsky

A very large amount of that cash was raised in the USA. And those who were giving that cash (in the USA) are now screaming for the blood of Muslims.

There is racism in regard to which terrorists one supports. The IRA were white. And for Irish-Americans, shrouded in shamrock and mists.

“Media Distortion: Killing Innocent Afghan Civilians to “Save Our Troops”

Eight Years of Horror Perpetrated agaisnt the people of Afghanistan”…

http://tinyurl.com/yhknxqh

Dreolin, quite right. I had such a gross email forwarded from a friend of mine, obviously stemming from the States. It was called “A German’s view of fanatics” and it contained insights like:

“We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that

Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims

just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be

true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to

make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of

fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.”

It then goes on to compare all Muslims to Nazis.

Now, this was forwarded by a nice, middle aged, woman, who should – could -might even – know better, in all seriousness. What, hey?

Tom 4.38 while I am very glad to hear that we were on the same side over Yugoslavia I think you will agree that the journalists, politicians, lib dems & indeed large majority of people now “concerned” about Afghanistan weren’t about us bombinmg hospitals to help Nazis publicly committed to genocide.

I don’t agree with you about al Quaeda not being responsible for 9/11.

And to the later writer who asked what evidence there was we could defeat the Taliban I can only repeat that, by assisting the northern alliance with little more than air power we did defeat them. That surely means that local soldiers on the ground, witgh western technological support can certainly do it again. Putting western forces on the ground is fighting to their strengths not ours.

Neil’

You say you “don’t agree” about al-Qaeda not being responsible for 9/11, but have looked at the all the very substantial evidence which suggests otherwise?

Try again -

have you looked at the very substantial evidence which suggests they weren’t?

We are ALL just pieces on a chessboard…

http://tinyurl.com/yk6pt3k

Rob.

I don’t give a humanitarian label if you decide this blog doesn’t welcome anti-militarism. Go throw some cluster bombs at some poor people or whatever it is you usually do. The “soldiers” are engaged in illegal acts. Does Nuremberg mean anything to you? Perhaps not. Perhaps it only applies to Germans and black people.

As far as I’m concerned your friends “fighting” over there (who of course are not the ones killing families and torturing people – right) are scumbags for taking part in this 21st century barbarism.

Members of the Shittish army who have taken part in ANY of the illegal wars deserve to be spat at when they give their “welcome come” parades, then bundled into a remand cell awaiting trial.

Those military personnel who DON’T take part in this war have my utmost respect.

All the Kipling is rather appropriate given the few ‘white mans burdens’ types excusing mass murder here.

Hummm…

They are ‘children’

They don’t read their official mercenary contracts, they come from deprived areas, and broken homes.

There’ll be no thicko’s there then!

Same much go for those people I knew who jointed the ‘army’ who did a great job pretending to be thick.

I don’t get the “preventing terrorism on UK streets” reasoning, either.

Where’s da proof? Or is there something they don’t want to reveal?

See http://tinyurl.com/yfjl8kk

you know craig you really should have a link to wikileaks on your website.

I know this is off topic, but newly released documents (suppressed) on the McCanns really do warrant a look at.

regards

Nameless commenter,

please use a name, so that people can reply and quote. You seem very angry; have you been affected personally in some way?

OT: Craig, have you noticed The Guardian is promoting holidays in Uzbekistan:

http://www.guardianholidayoffers.co.uk/holiday/uzbekistan-heart-of-central-asia

Is there anything good in this?

From this morning’s ‘Times’:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6877401.ece

Some depressing comments….

No doubt Craig will be posting about the above. The tone of several comments cheerfully endorsing torture is repugnant. But I liked the one which enquired whether Mr Edwards would still be making the same argument while his finger nails were being pulled out with a pair of pliers!

16 October 2009

“The politicization of the British military”

“The turn to colonial wars of conquest is driven by the struggle between the major powers to carve up the planet’s strategic resources, such as oil and gas. This, in turn, is bound up with the drive by a narrow and fabulously wealthy elite to secure ever-greater levels of personal wealth. Under conditions of a global economic slump and a deepening gulf between rich and poor, such an agenda is incompatible with the maintenance of democratic forms of rule?”given that it must be carried out at the direct expense of the vast majority of the population.”…

http://tinyurl.com/ylagtn4

“A couple of thousand men in the Horse Guards Parade could do a lot of trouble before troops came – if they came,” Wilson confided to his political secretary Marcia Williams.”…

tinyurl.com/ylglamd

soldiers die,

their mothers cry.

politicians lie,

Who takes the biggest slice of the pie,

Craig Murray do you like Curry?

Gorden Brown is a Clown

Why does he always frown?

Jack Straw is America’s Whore

No one loves him anymore!

I still don’t get the “preventing terrorism on UK streets” reasoning, despite the comments above.

According to Brown’s speech to the IISS

(http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20515):

“The Director-General of our security service has said that three quarters of the most serious plots against the UK have had links that reach back into these mountains.. The sustained pressure on Al Qaeda in Pakistan combined with military action in Afghanistan is having a suppressive effect on Al Qaeda’s ability to operate effectively in the region..”

If 75% of terrorist plots originate from Al-Qaeda in the Afghan-Pakistani border region, and if the continued war helps to curtail them, how is the decision to send another 500 men there ‘imbecilic’?

@Abe: it could be viewed as imbecilic if, as the British public are beginning to suspect:

(a) the certainty of Afghan civilian deaths at our hands is more morally objectionable than the possibility of deaths in Britain from the continued operations of Al Qaeda abroad;

(b) it is unjust that we have a climbing death toll amongst young working-class British men, sent to their fate by a class of people who very rarely risk their own sons in the same way;

(c) the more foreign innocents we kill, and the more countries we force down the neoliberal capitalist path against the wishes of its population, the more people around the world will turn against us, some of whom will turn to terrorism;

(d) after the lies that led to our disgraceful actions in Iraq, the security services are lying again.

See: http://antarena.blogspot.com/2009/10/torture-debate-dont-ask-dont-tell.html

Talking about the “certainty of Afghan civilian deaths”, is anyone, anywhere, attempting to count them?

antiwar groups in the UK are hardly inundated with war resisters willing to go public.

Posted by: Jon at October 15, 2009 12:58 PM

John, many of the anti-war people are families of the military who consider their family member has been send illegally to fight in wars.

Just in case you have no experience of having member of your family in the military, it’s not pleasant knowing they’re fighting purely on the basis of lies.

The Ministry of Defence can be very cruel to personnel if their family speak out against these wars. Of course, they’re not wars because there have been no war cabinets and MPs have gaily tripped off on their 82 day summer holiday while 37 soldiers have been killed.

“To protect our streets” is one lie which has been spun regularly by the government. That’s rubbish and we know it. Our presence in Iraq and now Afghanistan will create far more danger to these islands in the future.

Perhaps now you realise why some anti-war protestors cannot ‘go public’. For their nearest and dearest to have a ‘dishonourable discharge’ would ensure they were never considered for a job in civilian life. To tell a prospective employer the dishonourable discharge was because my mother decided to be vocal in a protest through the streets of London would sound fantasy – when it’s the truth.

“The head of MI5 broke cover last night to defend the service’s foreign intelligence links with countries accused of torturing detainees, saying British lives had been saved as a direct result.”

http://tinyurl.com/ykx3jvu

Echoes of Dick Cheney: “ten of thousands of lives were saved” … or whatever number he plucked out of thin air.

Rob Lewis

The Crown. After serving Queen and country a great many soldiers fall foul of and get made an example of by the Crown prosecution service when they return unsettled to civilian life.

We the Brits only knock the shit out of Muslims because it has proven to be effective over a thousand years of punching a whole in the Muslim faith.

Then a whole lot more Muslim babies get born and they all start believing again. Meanwhile our boys realise what the Crown was really up to, blatant colonialism and anti-truth, and a whole lot more British babies get born who can be sent wet behind the ears to bash Islam and acquire stuff.

My father in law was a picture restorer and I found him one day working on a picture similar to the above.

He said, paintbrush in hand, ‘ There’s far too much blood, I’m going to take out some of this blood.’ We are only doing in Afghanistan what we did previously to the whole world for the sake of the Queen and Empire. You must be a very silly man indeed if you still think in the age of the internet that there is honour and glory in fighting for the privelege of remaining a wealthy and powerful country at the expense of others and at the expense of truth.

@subrosa – thanks for your reply. You are quite right, and I should have reflected that in my comments. I’ve had experience – a couple of years back – of members of the army coming up to anti-war stalls and giving us unqualified, but quiet, support. I saw Peter Brierley talk at a public meeting some years back, and Lynda Holmes of MFAW at another one.

So I am aware that the situation is more nuanced than was perhaps clear from my post. I guess I am frustrated that we didn’t have a ‘Vietnam moment’ with Iraq, where there were enough resisters willing to condemn the war to make it easier to do so. Still, it may yet happen with Afghanistan, especially since it feels we have a turning point in the public perception, with now over 200 British soldiers having died. I fear we will still be there at 250, and 300, but at that point the patience of the public will really begin to be tested, and hopefully that will increase private discontent amongst soldiers, if not public condemnations.

“…this nation…” –? That will be England, will it Craig?

It’s true that far too many of people of my nation, and of yours, and of the other nations of The Isles, have volunteered themselves to be part of the English empire’s crimes over recent centuries.

But it’s several bridges too far to go along with the London establishment’s ridiculous pretence that all the ancient peoples of Britain — and presumably the divided people of the occupied six counties of north-eastern Eire too — are “one nation”, in some logic-defying way.

Give us a couple of drinks, and get us into an unbuttoned frame of mind, and very few of the population of The Isles has any doubt — or even any coyness — about which of the collection of nations here they do actually belong to.

An ethnic-minority buddy of mine, born and brought up in England in a proudly Caribbean-African family always insists to me the he’s “British, but not English.” But O is in a minority position. Most of us, especially the whitefaces, have no such complexities with which to wrestle. We KNOW to which of the several nations of the island of Britain we belong, usually before we’re ten years old. And the knowledge doesn’t go away.

So screw the ‘unitary state’ and its mendacious pretence of a unitary nation. Cymru Rhydd am byth! And respect and friendly neighbourliness to all the nations of The Isles — including the English, natch.

Hwyl, RhG