Washington and Brussels Meetings

by craig on October 21, 2009 4:58 am in Rendition

Am at Schiphol again at 5.30am, after an overnight flight from Accra, waiting eight hours for a connecting flight to Washington, and thinking “Why oh why do I put myself through this?” Slightly mitigated by the joy of being able to post again on a working internet connection.

AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN, IRAN, IRAQ, VIETNAM: EXPOSING OFFICIAL LIES

Ward Circle Building, Room 2, American University

Wednesday, October 21 at 8:10 pm

Keynote Speaker: Col. Larry Wilkerson (USA, ret.) Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell during the critical period from August 2002 until January 2005; Served as Army officer for 31 years;

Recipient of 2009 Award from Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence

Daniel Ellsberg, Former Defense and State Department official who released the Pentagon Papers to the press in 1971, for which he was put on trial facing a possible sentence of 115 years; Author, Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers; Subject of newly released documentary “The Most Dangerous Man in America,” which he was called at the time by Henry Kissinger

Coleen Rowley, Former Special agent and legal counselor, Minneapolis FBI, who called the FBI director’s attention to serious flaws that might have prevented 9/11; Time Magazine Person of the Year in 2002; Sam Adams Award Recipient, 2002

Craig Murray, Former U.K. Ambassador to Uzbekistan, who exposed the use of torture, declaring, “I would rather die than have someone tortured in attempt to give me more security.” Sam Adams Award recipient, 2005

Ray McGovern, Veteran CIA analyst, whose duties included preparing and briefing the President’s Daily Brief under Nixon, Ford, and Reagan; Co-founder Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS); Colleague of Sam Adams

Peter Kuznick, Professor of History; Director, American University’s Nuclear Studies Institute; Co-writer (with Oliver Stone) “Secret History of the United States” (forthcoming on Showtime)

The late Sam Adams, in calculating the number of Vietnamese Communists under arms, came up with more than twice the number Gen. William Westmoreland, Commander of U.S. forces, would allow the Army to acknowledge. The country-wide offensive at Tet in January-February 1968 proved Sam right.

Sponsored by Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence, American University History Department, American University’s Nuclear Studies Institute

To Tell the Truth

Coleen Rowley and Ambassador Craig Murray

Ray McGovern, moderator

Date/Time: THURSDAY, October 22, 7-9 PM

Place: Festival Center/Servant Leadership School

1640 Columbia Road, NW

Washington, DC 20009

202 328 0072Cost: free (but free-will offerings welcome)

We are all taught to tell the truth. But when some folks enter government service, they seem to claim an exemption. Truth telling becomes quaint, obsolete. Misfeasance and malfeasance get covered up, and we never seem to learn from our mistakes.

Worse still, governments start wars on flimsy pretexts; and this leads to what the Nuremberg Tribunal labeled “accumulated” evils?”like torture. Although a chosen few in our Congress are briefed on such evils, we the people never get to know, UNLESS…

… people of conscience have the integrity and courage to speak out. Our presenters will draw on their personal experience in this kind of speaking out; what it’s like; and what happened to them as a result:

Coleen Rowley, as legal counsel/special agent in the FBI’s Minneapolis Bureau, became aware of the repeated?”but unheeded?”warnings her colleagues sent to FBI headquarters before 9/11. In a memorandum to the FBI Director and Congress she exposed many of the shortcomings and became persona non grata when a lawmaker gave the memo to the press. Time Magazine honored her by naming her Person of the Year in 2002.

Craig Murray was Great Britain’s Ambassador to Uzbekistan when he discovered that his hosts were boiling people alive to extract “intelligence” on “terrorists.” He discovered to his dismay that his Foreign Office superiors thought that this was okay, so long as Craig didn’t do it. He left the Foreign Service and is now Rector of the University of Dundee?”one of Britain’s leading universities, described by Nobel Prize winner Seamus Heaney as “having its head in the clouds and its feet firmly on the ground.”

Rowley and Murray are past recipients of the annual Sam Adams Award for Integrity in Intelligence. This forum is follow-on to the Oct. 21event at American U. (see: http://tinyurl.com/ygm55pe)

Sponsored by Speaking Truth to Power/Tell the Word

Press release

Union of Uzbek non-governmental organisations

36 Comments

  1. Scary Mary

    21 Oct, 2009 - 6:15 am

    Dundee – one of the UK’s leading Universities?? ROFL!!

  2. Frazer

    21 Oct, 2009 - 7:28 am

    You are in the Business Class Lounge..just ask someone to bring you a pillow !

    And by the way, can you pick me up a bottle of decent Scotch, I will imbibe in December when I drop by and shamelessly demand to be fed and watered at your place !

  3. anticant

    21 Oct, 2009 - 8:20 am

    “We are all taught to tell the truth.” More accurately, when we are little we are punished for telling obvious lies. Adults – especially powerful ones – aren’t, because they know they can get away with it.

    Good luck on your travels, Craig. I suppose you do manage to pop in to say Hello to Nadira and Cameron from time to time?

  4. David McCann

    21 Oct, 2009 - 8:27 am

    Hi Craig,

    Did you get my invitation to be guest speaker at a future meeting of the Scottish Independence Convention?

    http://scottishindependenceconvention.org

  5. JimmyGiro

    21 Oct, 2009 - 8:48 am

    “Pity he didn’t throw his shoes.”

    Maybe that’s why they are asked to leave them outside before entering the mosque?

  6. Jon

    21 Oct, 2009 - 9:54 am

    I shall be in London on Saturday too. I support StW Coalition, but I do hope they come to their senses and renew links with you, especially given what is at stake.

    PS activists often wonder sometimes “why they do this” – I wonder it about myself sometimes. But it is often worth it, Craig, even though progress is almost always slow.

  7. dodoze

    21 Oct, 2009 - 10:02 am

    More sexist jokes about Jacqui Smith, please. The self-elevating tribalism which underpins the principles of exclusion by the organisers of such as a Stop the War rally has curious parallels with the tribal instincts and alliances which are used to fuel and justify warfare, exile, torture.

    Have a nice day, y’all.

  8. mary

    21 Oct, 2009 - 1:35 pm

    I have nothing at all to do with the first comment here.

    I was just looking at the Kamm blog on the Times and noticed that Eddie, late of this site when Craig was standing for Parliament, has cropped up on the comments there spouting his usual insults.

    Ref Ms Jackboots Smith, did anyone see her make her I AM VERY SORRY speech, the prerequisite for being let off repayment of her fraudulent second homes allowance? She wasn’t in the least bit sorry.

  9. George Dutton

    21 Oct, 2009 - 1:35 pm

  10. tony_opmoc

    21 Oct, 2009 - 2:15 pm

    Craig,

    Many of the people you are meeting with claim to be highly knowledgeable about the events leading up to 9/11. It would be interesting to find their views on what they think where The MOTIVATIONS of those Responsible, as well as The MOTIVATIONS of those who took advantage of the event, and whether or not they consider the War on Terror to be legitimate, or a false construct in order to achieve their objectives – and what those REALLY are.

    Tony

  11. John

    21 Oct, 2009 - 4:06 pm

    Remember who your true allies are Craig. Please stop your left baiting. Sexism has no place in any left wing organisation. There are some fundamentals of our unity – these include opposition to homophobia, sexism and racism, and support for the oppressed.

    Hope to see you speaking on Saturday, I will be cheering you!

  12. Jon

    21 Oct, 2009 - 4:47 pm

    John, I agree with you, but feel that the stridency of the “point of order” raised at the meeting in question was overdone (I wasn’t there, but have read some accounts of it, and it is in keeping with the fractious nature of the Left generally!).

    I may have mentioned this before here, but it reminds me of speaking to members of the public at an anti-war stall several years ago. We had one irate woman who wanted to sign our petition, but refused to do so because we weren’t using hemp paper. To be honest we hadn’t thought to do so – the Lebanon had just been invaded and we were keen to do something quickly.

    I am firmly on the left too – perhaps more so than some Liberals here – but “fiddling whilst Rome burns” comes to mind!

  13. Abe Rene

    21 Oct, 2009 - 5:42 pm

    Good to hear that you are getting invitations to speak in the United States. Hopefully there will be many more.

  14. dreoilin

    21 Oct, 2009 - 6:58 pm

    Reporters Sans Frontieres (RSF) has announced its Press Freedom Index for 2009. (Ireland is in joint first place along with Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden. But Ireland is very small and most contentious issues are domestic.)

    “The United Kingdom did not fare as well, rising three places to joint 20th position while the ‘Obama effect’ saw the United States climb 20 places from 40th to joint 20th.”

    (I’m not sure what great difference Obama has made to media freedom/behaviour in the USA? Other than the fact that he’s challenged Fox News and given one of their “stars” – Glenn Beck – a reason to whine about being persecuted like Jews in the Holocaust.)

    Then this:

    “The arrest of five journalists in Israel (Israeli territory) and the imprisonment of three journalists during ‘Operation Cast Lead’, led to a ‘nose-dive’ of 47 places to 93rd position. It now sits behind Guinea-Bissau (92nd), Mongolia (91st) and Ukraine (89th) in the list.

    “Israel was also rated according to its extra-territorial actions, with a particular emphasis on its actions within the Gaza Strip.

    “RSF said the toll on press freedom due to the war in the Gaza Strip was “very heavy” where it reported that 20 journalists were injured by Israeli military forces and three were killed while covering the offensive.

    “The watchdog placed Israel (extra-territorial) at 150th position – below Sudan (148th), Democratic Republic of Congo (146th) and Iraq (145th).”

    Full report here:

    http://tinyurl.com/yl4tpmz

  15. David McEwan Hill

    21 Oct, 2009 - 7:22 pm

  16. tony_opmoc

    21 Oct, 2009 - 7:56 pm

    Last month we met an Israeli Vet in one of The Greek Islands.

    His Girlfriend was Really Nice Trying To Cope with his obvious Nervous Breakdown…

    The poor guy spoke perfect English, but it was as if he had lost ALL Social Skills…

    The Italians and The Greeks and The French and The Germans and The English and The Australians All Looked at Each Other

    And tried not to upset him, in case he had packed an uzi in his hand luggage

    Tony

  17. Dick the Prick

    22 Oct, 2009 - 12:20 pm

    You’ve been cold shouldered for telling a sexist joke about Jacqui Spliff?!?! – John & Jon are fine to jump on such activities normally but in a strategic sense – the ‘joke’ is that she’s not on trial surely. The ‘joke’ is that our civil liberties have been traduced, the ‘joke’ is that she lied to Legg when she had a police escort outside her sister’s house who had to provide timesheets. Gadd zooks – way to look at the bigger picture!

  18. Willie Warrior

    22 Oct, 2009 - 2:09 pm

    Brilliant “spill the beans” interview here with Larry Wilkerson, Powell’s Chief of Staff.

    Apparently he thinks Cheney is quite mad.

    http://www.fff.org/comment/com0908m.asp

  19. Willie Warrior

    22 Oct, 2009 - 2:19 pm

    @tony opmoc

    There are plenty of stories coming out of Israel about the social impact of their conflicts and how they’re breaking Israeli society itself.

    It’s not just the experience of being witness to and engaged in horrific attacks on Palestinain civilians, but also the all pervasive racism in Israeli society. Between that and the siege mentality Israel is becoming seriously dehumanised itself.

  20. Willie Warrior

    22 Oct, 2009 - 2:29 pm

    Great site here giving Israeli vets detailed witness testimony on the slaughter in Gaza, which of course undermines the claims of Israeli govt.

    Not for those of a human disposition….

    http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/index_e.asp

  21. Craig

    22 Oct, 2009 - 3:43 pm

    John,

    You see, if Sarah Brown had been caught claiming for porn rather than Mr Smith, I would make the same joke:

    “If I were married to Gordon Brown, I would use a lot of porn too.”

    It is not actually a sexist joke at all. The sex of the porn watcher and the political partner is immaterial. The problem is the inanity of the wimmin and their aversion to heterosexual activity in any form – or even mention.

  22. Dick the Prick

    22 Oct, 2009 - 4:20 pm

    @Craig – 3.43 – that was the joke to which StW have alienated a respected (well, it’s err.. your blog!! – no, seriously) former ambassador, published author, critical spokesman against torture, campaigner, prolific blogger, erudite mechanic of government opps because you made a crack about someone cracking off??? And these people wanna be taken seriously?

    You get to wondering if they have a clue what they’re doing at all. It’s this, this right here that turns people away. Pointless, irrelevant, non-sensical, miniscule, drivel arguments in the face of death, internment, evisceration, complicity in a whole manner of shite that we’ll never know about and you had the temerity to find someone jacking off capable of a bit of ribald (and, to be fair, quite amusing) wit.

    They really need to stop creating offences and go for the jugular if their gonna be taken seriously. Good grief.

  23. anon

    22 Oct, 2009 - 7:29 pm

    Craig’s political colour being yellow, it is opposite to the purple arrogance of right-wing New Labour. The offense that he has caused to the socialist, red, Stop the War-ites, ( to whom he is much closer in colour ) is to remind them that New Labour is a middle class party that practises good old-fashioned middle-class hypocrisy, sneakily viewing porn at home, unlike good old fashioned atheistic Old Labour. It’s not nice to remind Old Labour of their complete and total loss of political power.

    New Labour has in fact fucked up the economy infinitely worse than Old labour did, because by donning Tory colours they have remained in power long enough to remain unchallenged and unscrutinised by a change of hands at the wheel.

  24. anon

    23 Oct, 2009 - 4:04 am

    Just listened to BBC World Service’s World Business programme at 3.00 a.m.

    Listened to the most horrible, mendacious, racist, Islamophobic, US commentator telling us how the US is going to destroy Iran by stepping up sanctions like it did with Iraq.

    That seems to be the BBC’s job, giving air-time to fascist war-mongerers.

    Wouldn’t we be better off without receiving intelligence from the US, if all the US government wants to do is to destroy Islam. I bet that even the most radical of your colleagues in the US, share their governments violent Islamophobia. Even the US troops who are Muslims have been brainwashed into thinking that they are fighting against their fellow Muslims to bring them to the great Amwerican world-view.

  25. mary

    23 Oct, 2009 - 7:02 am

    A good article by Matthew Norman in the Independent on the slippery Straw and yet another of his attempts (failed) to get secret inquests.

    I love the bit where it says Barbara Castle employed him for his low guile and cunning.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/matthew-norman/matthew-norman-of-all-the-new-labour-toadies-jack-straw-must-be-the-worst-1807563.html

    PS I like toads. Object to the use of their name in comparison to the execrable Straw. I thought he was vile on QT last night – puffed up with his pretence of giving a damn about our liberties with his faux patriotism. Should have been an actor like Bliar.

  26. tony_opmoc

    23 Oct, 2009 - 7:43 am

    Didn’t watch it, but the following from Guido’s blog is exactly how I felt a few weeks ago when I watched Question Time for the first time in years. I had to switch it off before I threw up…

    Tony

    “Atlas shrugged says:

    October 23, 2009 at 5:52 am

    Likewise.

    My advice is to stop watching QT, or any other product of the MSM, as soon as you can kick the addiction.

    Personally I worry about the mental health of people who can actually watch a whole episode of QT without feeling extremely sick. Surely watching a panel of dishonest fools, being mocked by a larger group of even greater fools, should make any normal person want to throw-up.

    Why do any of you so called intelligent people still persist in taking what you see on the TV at its face value?

    Why do you still trust the BBC to be anything other then the very useful establishment controlled propaganda channel?

    Why do you still trust powerless puppets, namely elected or otherwise politicians, to either be telling the truth as they know it, or indeed to have the slightest idea what the truth actually is?

    What was it that gave you this trust? Was it the various WW’s, great economic depressions, Labour governments and genocides, they gave us in the past? Surely not.

    Or could it be that the vast majority are just a mindless bunch of lazy, and wishful thinking, potentially slaughter house bound cattle? Because you can be absolutely certain that your ruling elites don’t just thing we ALL are, they self-evidently KNOW WE ARE, beyond any doubt whatsoever.”

  27. ingo

    23 Oct, 2009 - 8:58 am

    I have been in the audience of Question time more than once, on one occaision I was late was let into the Magdalen Road studio and sprinted upstairs, I told the guard that I had been before and that I knew the way into the studio. Coming off the last few steps you turn right and pass some offices.

    One had its door slightly ajar and I could see the candidates fishing through the public question, apparently chosen at random.

    Then it became info-tainment and really went downhill, I have not got a clue as to last night, we played scrabble and I came second.

    Going by the coverage this morning still re living this marked event, it was ‘get nick Griffin’ night last night, not a single item of news was covered. Afghanistans increasing death, Karzai’s poppy regime, Irans nuclear plans, or any news about the candidacy for president of Europe, Mary Robinson being a fine choice, nothing, at all.

    So, yes question time has had its day and if we privatise the royal postal services, we should as well have a close look at the BBC and its increasing pandering to power structures.

    Come back John Peel, you had the right ideas.

    So what happened in Washington? anything earth shattering to be told?

  28. anticant

    23 Oct, 2009 - 12:13 pm

    I don’t usually watch ‘Any Questions’ – thank goodness! – but last night’s performance struck me as a massive own-goal by the BBC who, obviously stung by all the preceding criticism, stupidly chose to turn it into a “Get Griffin” lynching party, thereby garnering more sympathy for him than he merited. Not only the panel and the audience, but also the chairman, piled in with a will, so that Griffin emerged looking almost virtuous notwithstanding all the tosh he talked (intermingled with a few grains of sense). Far from holding the ring, the pseudo-magisterial David Dumblebore led the attack dogs and constantly interrupted Griffin instead of allowing him to answer the questions he had been asked. In stark contrast, he allowed the egregious Jack Straw to ramble on and on like a boozy pub bore. (Incidentally, there’s a wonderful send-up of Straw by Matthew Norman in today’s ‘Independent’.)

    All in all I rate this non-event as an undeserved draw for Griffin.

  29. George Dutton

    23 Oct, 2009 - 4:51 pm

    “Great Power Confrontation in the Indian Ocean: The Geo-Politics of the Sri Lankan Civil War”…

    http://tinyurl.com/ylqzm7p

    Greenspan…

    tinyurl.com/yftq4ol

  30. Stuart

    23 Oct, 2009 - 6:15 pm

    I totally agree with anticant about the nature of QT last night. And what I also found a bit distasteful was the general negativity, including from the audience, towards immigration. I find it a bit desperate when we start to insinuate that immigrants are responsible for all our country’s ills. Sure, there has been substantial immigration in recent years which has put pressure on public services in places but people who have come to the UK have brought enormous benefits, in economic and social terms. What is a scandal is that so many very well qualified incomers are cleaning the streets or serving coffee in Starbucks when, with a little more effort and understanding on the part of employers and the government, they could be undertaking skilled jobs that are far more appropriate to their abilities.

    I think there also needs to be a lot more awareness of what the UK population projections, as recently published by the Office for National Statistics, actually involve – they are projections, not forecasts. They take recent short term historical trends and project them forward. The likelihood of recent trends continuing is very unlikely, given the current lack of economic opportunities. Besides, there’s a rather nasty tone behind the argument that we’ve got as many people as we want now – stuff the rest of you.

    And, finally, where I think the main parties should actually learn from the BNP is how they have actually sought to engage with and stand up for people who are currently totally overlooked by the political system. Where I disagree with the BNP is that I don’t regard it as a race issue – I think it’s more related to poverty and increasing inequality in our society. Let’s put serious efforts into creating a more progressive society where there are opportunities for all. I think then we’ll see a lot less blame attached to immigrants and a lot less support for extremists like the BNP.

  31. anticant

    23 Oct, 2009 - 6:58 pm

    No – it’s not a race issue, but it IS a religious and cultural one as well as an economic one. I had a Lebanese grandfather who migrated here from the Turkish Empire as it then was, and he was totally committed to integrating into British society and values whilst retaining his own family and cultural links in the Middle East.

    The worry felt by many white British people – and not only poor undereducated working class ones – is that the Asian Muslim immigrants who have settled in many of our towns and cities over the past thirty years do not wish to espouse our values and liberal social attitudes, and are intent on not merely preserving their own traditions in a self-imposed apartheid, but want to see an eventual imposition of their beliefs, sharia laws and customs on the rest of the population. It is this fear which is articulated and exploited in twisted racist terms by the BNP because none of the mainstream parties are willing to confront it and to admit that their shibboleth of multiculturalism will only work if all concerned want it to and that it has so far failed.

    I am not hostile to Muslims personally – I know some very pleasant ones – but I do have a sense of unease as to where their ultimate loyalties lie. The so-called ‘extremists’ are simply following the logic of Islamic orthodoxy and the mainstream moderates we hear so much about keep their heads well down and their mouths mostly shut.

    Until the mainstream parties do far more to address these very real concerns of a far wider segment than BNP voters, the latter will, I fear, continue to gather support it doesn’t deserve, and our democracy will suffer.

  32. tony_opmoc

    23 Oct, 2009 - 7:37 pm

    I do agree that immigration has been immensely beneficial to England. The great thing about immigrants is that they are really intelligent and self motivated. They actually got off their arse, and travelled thousands of miles to come to the Promised Land…

    Can’t we just export the stupid lazy racist moaners to New Zealand or somewhere. I know we used to do this. They would be good with the sheep – most are the same colour – and New Zealand is still very underpopulated…Whilst England is becoming one of the most densely populated countries in the World and its not due to The English having too many babies.

    It is Actually a Massive Compliment to Our Country That So Many People Want To Come Here.

    Tony

  33. tony_opmoc

    23 Oct, 2009 - 8:24 pm

    In retrospect this is rather weird, cos I was rather shy at school, but when I finally got a proper job, I just saw things that needed doing and did them, and ended up getting promoted very quickly…

    So I was about 23 and had a team of people working for me… One of them was a Member of The Socialist Workers Party, and another guy was a Member of the National Front. The NF guy took his politics very seriously and even put himself up as a Parliamentary Candidate. The SWP bloke also took his politics very seriously…

    At the weekends when they were in their free time – they both used to attend the protests, the demos and the race riots… They used to throw bricks at each other…

    Of course I was their boss and couldn’t take sides and had to be impartial…

    I said I couldn’t care less what you do in your spare time, but when you are in Work, you will behave Professionally, and You Will Work with each other – because you are both a part of the same team…

    And they did. They put aside all their politics when in work and got on really well.

    I understood both their viewpoints and they both were correct.

    20 years later, I took my Young Son to show him the house I grew up in, and the entire area had changed completely. The entire culture was totally different. The change was so dramatic I was totally amazed. It was like walking through a town in Northern India or Pakistan.

    Tony

  34. manchedave

    23 Oct, 2009 - 9:30 pm

    Excellent links upstream here.

    http://www.fff.org/comment/com0908m.asp

    Posted by: Willie Warrior at October 22, 2009 2:09 PM

    This is a classic for anyone wanting to know the inside story on Gitmo . Col Lawrence Wilkerson is an OK guy !

    The second is a vicious but perfectly truthful demolition of Jack Straw in the Indie . In the past Craig has dismissed the paper, but I check it every day, and it is good value. You get some stories all the other qualities miss.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/matthew-norman/matthew-norman-of-all-the-new-labour-toadies-jack-straw-must-be-the-worst-1807563.html

    PS I like toads. Object to the use of their name in comparison to the execrable Straw. I thought he was vile on QT last night – puffed up with his pretence of giving a damn about our liberties with his faux patriotism. Should have been an actor like Bliar.

    Posted by: mary at October 23, 2009 7:02 AM

    ————————

    I actually came to post the link but Mary was first.

  35. tony_opmoc

    23 Oct, 2009 - 11:04 pm

    I could still remember the name of the SWP guy – well his first name, but I couldn’t remember the name of the NF guy. But my memory didn’t fail me, because I found his surname within 2 minutes of starting a Google search, and could then remember his first name.

    The SWP guy had dark long fuzzy curly hair, amd was really slim and about 5′ 7″ tall. His mate looked like Robert Plant.

    The NF guy was slim, tall and very straight. He was about 6’1″ tall and had short fair hair.

    I think it us unfair to find out what has happenned to either of them since, as this is ancient history over 30 years old.

    Tony

  36. mary

    24 Oct, 2009 - 1:53 pm

    A friend who lives in the US went to the talk where Craig was one of the speakers and said he was very good.

    Here is Craig being interviewed on Real News by Paul Jay. Torture in Uzbekistan and the geo political background to the War(s) on Terror. Excellent. Link from medialens.

    Murray: CIA used Uzbek torture to create false intelligence; support for regime continues

    Posted by chapultepec on October 24, 2009, 12:37 pm

    http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4368&

    video

    videos.therealnews.com/cmurraypt1_med.mp4

    mp3

    therealnews.com/media/downloadmp4.php?file=trn_2009-10-04/cmurraypt1.mp3

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