“he believes it is wrong for anyone to be allowed to express views which he deplores”

If I remember correctly, Larry from St Louis said something vaguely similar. Quote: ‘Does this seem like the sort of discourse that should be tolerated?’

9/11 – false flag.

7/7 – false flag.

Shoe bomber – false flag.

Pants bomber – false flag.

In a nutshell, the ‘War On Terror’ is false flag.

Does that mean ‘ALL’ terrorism is false flag? Of course it doesn’t. That’s as daft as saying the ‘War On Terror’ isn’t false flag. Beware those that generalise to try and win an argument.

“Angrysoba appears to be angry because he believes it is wrong for anyone to be allowed to express views which he deplores.”

No, I don’t think people should be prevented from saying things I deplore. I just find such things deplorable, naturally.

For example, I don’t think Ernst Zundel should be in jail for denying the Holocaust but I think he’s a nasty piece of work as pretty much anyone who denies the Holocaust is. I think it’s deplorable to call him “Europe’s No.1 Political Prisoner” as conspiracy site WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.com does and I find conspiracies that blame Jews first and look for evidence later deplorable, that’s all.

I haven’t asked you to delete any comments, I have asked you if you feel comfortable with commenters appearing on a daily basis and blaming the woes of the world on “usurious Zionists” or “global banking New World Order Zionists”?

You’ve replied in the comments box on my blog that you find some of the “barmier comments” exasperating and that you also feel the same way about those who swallow the so-called “war-on-terror” propaganda whole.

Okay, but I wonder why you ignore the coded anti-semitism of some posters and express no discomfort at it.

And just to be clear, it was a number of regular posters on YOUR blog who were calling for MY comments to be deleted when I disagreed with their “false flag theories”. I never called for anyone’s comments to be deleted so when you say, “Some people don’t seem to get the concept of open debate” then perhaps you are referring to those who assumed I was a “moron”, “a shill” or a “black-ops shill” and suggested software you could buy to have me blocked.

Anyway, it is much closer to midnight here in Japan than it is over there in the UK, so I’ll have to continue this sometime in the New Year…

Some of the commenters here do seem barmy to me. It’s not so much their theories as their eagerness to believe them without evidence.

That’s a problem with both “sides”, of course. The official explanations of things are sometimes as unconvincing as the stuff random people make up, but that doesn’t automatically make the other explanation(s) true. They could all be tosh.

Craig’s posts have a lot of insight in them and I often try to share them with a wider audience. When doing so I often hope that people can still take the main posts seriously when they scroll down and see a load of comments by conspiracy theorist nutters.

And I hate to use “conspiracy theory” in the pejorative sense since it technically applies to just about everyone who believes any theory. The official 9/11 explanation is, technically, a theory about a conspiracy, i.e. a conspiracy theory, albeit an official one. I hate the phrase and have complained about people using it myself. I just don’t know of a better phrase to describe those who have decided to reject official explanations (fair enough) so much that they’ll dive into the first alternative theory they find and never look back, never engaging the same cynicism or requiring the same levels of proof for the alternative which they apply/require to the official (not fair enough; stupid and annoying).

I don’t know what should be done about it, if anything, though. I think people should be free to say whatever they want and I’m also sure that Craig (and other readers) do not have time to add a counterpoint to every comment they disagree with.

I just think it’s a shame that the blog has (quite understandably) attracted a lot of unbalanced comments.

Conspiracy theories are like religions: When you’re so sure that one of them is true you’ve got to ask yourself why huge groups of other people are so sure a completely different one is the truth. There’s often an ‘official’ one for a country or region, too… Personally, I’m not believing anything without proof.

angrysoba

Either you believe in freedom of speech or you don’t.

Craig has not taken on any role as a censor of or commentator on zionism or anti-semitism. He should be praised for not censoring people just because he doesn’t like their politics, rather than castigated for not “expressing discomfort” about some of the sillier opinions expressed here.

Grow up!

Hi! nekycU

Whoever came up with the “denier” adjective,be it Holocaust or Climate Change,probably knew what they were doing.It seems to me that it is designed to stop debate dead on its tracks.

Angry

I feel disappointed with your courage. I know you disagree with people on the blog, everyone on the blog disagrees with every other person on the blog. That is what happens when people are allowed to. But I would have assumed that you would have enough courage to state those disagreements to our faces, on the thread where we made them. Instead of on your own blog, so we have no way of knowing what you wrote so can’t respond to your accusations.

PS, I’m not one of the truthers, I’m one of the Islamic extremists.

I think if your blog allows editing you should replace “Goldberg wearing a Tshirt that says 911//77″ was an inside Job with “Goldberg wearing a Tshirt that says Islam will Dominate!”.

I’m not sure why I wrote that, all my TShirts are now plane because my wife through away my game over TShirt.

http://www.teesforall.com/images/Humor_Wedding_Game_Over_Black_Shirt.jpg

The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they try too hard. They try to explain every single apparent anomaly and weave it all together into something coherent. Which often turns out to be inconsistent and subject to debunking.

Seems to me that an alternative tack should be taken. Accept that there are many elements and pieces of apparent evidence which just cannot be cogently explained with any degree of corroborated veracity, then adopt this working principle: if the (insert atrocity of choice) was caused by unknown conspirators, and no concrete evidence of a conspiracy has been publicised (and no participants in the conspiracy have come forward), what kind of plan would be required to bring about such results? Factor in conspiracy planners with a capacity for inhuman ruthlessness (a type that certainly exists) and yes, I think it could be done.

Which is not the same as saying it was done this way. But progress frequently begins with an outre thought experiment.

Angry are you able to recognise the difference between Zionism and Judaism?

There are some who state any attack on Israel is Antisemitism, others who state any attack on Zionism is antisemitism, you have gone a step further by confusing attacks on usury as antisemitism.

Zionism is a form of nationalism not a religion or part of a religion. Nationalism goes against belief in God and creation. I am not just against Zionism, I am against all forms of nationalism, whether Nazism, Arab Nationalism, Kurdish nationalism etc, because nationalism is just another from racism.

Mike Cobley, anyone who lumps together all theorists that have ever hypothesised a conspiracy has got a serious intellectual problem. Do you believe that we really went to Iraq because of worry about WMD and we are honestly in Afghanistan hunting terrorists and promoting democracy?

I would cautiously second your thoughts on zionismn and anti semititism Arsalan.

What has to mentioned is the alliances these nationalists foster, for example the military connections between Israels zionists and that of the rightwing Hindu nationalists, currently flavouring the pakistan insecurity, with a little help from Lashka i Toibar.

Maybe angrysoba, on a nice teaching job abroad, would like to tell us why it is necessarry to help Conservative MPs, some 80% being part of the secretive CFI, with some 10 million over eight years, providing they are in support of Israels zionists/fashist in power?

why this meddling in our political affairs, when there is no reciprocal acknowledged move, anybody attempting to support Israeli Arab interests, for example fair housing policies, would be fobbed of with calls to ‘stop interfering in Israeli politics, its not a two edged sword, but a blunt cudgel to beat all.

Brought in by a phoney election, it was George W Bush who damaged American credibility, sacrificed his people and put up for sale the soul of American. The Western elite have engineered the minds of the American people to back the pursuit of empire, sustained by wiping out the wealth and assets of the poor people of the world, while spilling the blood of their children.

Shock & awe was planned in the vaults below Dimona, the completeness of nine (9) and the symbol of the towers (11) combined as a synonym for the shock of planes roaring into the World Trade Complex and awe, as the buildings collapsed in a spectacular display of destruction.

Osama Bin Laden was to be the face behind evil, dying of kidney failure and controlled by the CIA, he would represent the necessity for invasions and occupations in a new ‘war on terror’, an endless 21st century crusade that would disguise the real Empire wars and shatter the framework of democracy.

America had the platform for this crusade with 750 bases in over 100 sovereign nations that started with a brief incursion into Afghanistan that would establish a ‘good and necessary war’ and oil the wheels of the American military complex before diverting men and machines into Iraq, the prize of an imperial adventure that both the American neo-con hawks and the liberal hawks fully backed.

It was to be a monumental failure in judgement, an insult to the collective will of the world people. Besides the damage to US credibility, and not just to the Muslim world, the Iraq adventure empowered Iran, turned the quest for oil into a mirage, brushed out the military command’s hope of a base for future operations, murdered 1.3 million people, displaced 4 million more and bought torture into the American psyche.

The US had little choice but to get out of Iraq. Lost and dejected the US military machine knew Afghanistan was the only hope to rebuild American pride, so, despite crippling debt, America regrouped and rebuilt the psyops of defeating al-Qaeda, building democracy, stopping heroin, fighting terrorism and liberating Afghan women. Having lost the Iraq oil reserves (that would crash the banking system), the fight now would be to secure Central Asian oil and gas and the crucial transit corridor of Afghanistan, bypassing Iran, Washington’s key geopolitical objective.

The escalation of the war in Afghanistan would establish permanent bases right on the borders of geopolitical competitors China and Russia.

The war in Afghanistan quickly became the AfPak war, an escalation to secure the nuclear weapons of neighbouring Pakistan and set the stage for the invasion of Iran.

But it is all an illusion, a desperate effort to survive. The Iraq war destroyed the far reaching plan. The insult of this war cannot be airbrushed out; its post war incompetence was dazzling. The world witnessed the destruction of society reducing humans to their basic instincts. America had created killing fields on a vast scale. People watched in horror on the BBC as American imperialism destroyed or undermined religions, culture, communal solidarity and meaning to people’s lives.

This failure has given a potent gift, a way for ordinary folk to stop this madness. We can challenge effectively by supporting the development of a spiritual and religious renewal that will deepen ones awe and wonder of the universe, increase the sensitivity to the needs of the environment, empower women who witnessed many children die. We will validate individual freedoms with a commitment to a community that affirms the humanity of others in different spiritual and religious traditions. This community will be built on Facebook, this is our plan, this is our war, and this is our salvation.

Arsalan, I sometimes think you write with your tongue firmly in your cheek. Why should you want to wear a T-shirt that says “Islam will Dominate!”. Why should anyone want to dominate or to be dominated? I don’t want to dominate you and I certainly won’t allow you to dominate me if I can help it.

Don’t you see what nonsense all this tribal name-calling is? Like you, I’m anti-Zionist but not anti-Jewish. While I’m anti all totalitarian, intolerant belief systems, whether religious or secular, I’m not anti their adherents as human beings unless they seek to harm me and interfere in the way I choose to live my life in a peaceful manner. But people who wish their preferred set of beliefs to rule the world are highly dangerous, don’t you agree?

The real problem here is psychological and its affecting most of the human race. Its basically down to loyalty and support of your own tribe, which was extremely important for survival – both of yourself and your tribe for a multitude of obvious reasons.

The effect is that most individuals within their tribe would support the most horrendous evils committed by their tribe against other tribes. Any blame would always be directed at the opposing tribe, regardless of the actual course of events. Whilst laws existed and would be applied, they were only applied for crime committed within your own tribe. If you killed another within your own tribe, you could expect the full force of the law. If you killed someone from another tribe, then your act would be celebrated – even if it resulted in tribal warfare.

Such tribalism is still obvious today. It didn’t disappear when blacks were allowed to come into white pubs. Certainly it is far less of a problem than it was 50 years ago, but it still exists deep within nearly everyone’s subconscious.

Most people simply do not see it.

For example I read today a comment on Alternet

“During last winters assault on Gaza, over thirty kilometers of pipeline carrying water was targeted and destroyed. Children are now dying from drinking contaminated water. Barbara Lubin of Middle East Children’s Alliance visited Gaza this summer, and using local engineers and local materials they managed to cobble together two water purification systems. Their intention is to return and build more. They are urgently appealing for donations. The details are posted on their website. Reading Barara Lubin’s account of children with limbs torn off by DIME weapons and bodies burnt by white phosphorous it is all to easy to imagine the hatred that this single 22 day attack has fomented. It was carried out using US supplied military ordnance”

Our culture/tribe is responsible for that. If this was happenning in Stockton-on-Tees, there would be absolute uproar. Because it is another tribe – virtually no-one gives a shit, and the BBC will even prevent anything much being published about it – even an appeal for Aid.

The fact that our tribe commits the most horrendous evil on others, simply isn’t acknowledged by most people within it. Its psychologically too hard to take. Its much easier to blame the other tribe.

From the very first day, I doubted the official story of 9/11, but it was not until 18 months later, that I became totally convinced that the official story was literally impossible because it broke the basic laws of physics.

I was convinced that all 3 buildings had been brought down by controlled demolition. I didn’t know who was responsible for it, but I was convinced that the US Government was lying. If they were lying what was the reason?

It then dawned on me – and this was before the Iraq war started, that the evil responsible for 9/11 probably came from within my own culture. I felt that someone had kicked me very hard in the goolies. It was even more shocking than the event itself. Virtually everyone I related all the physical evidence I had collated, refused to believe it and thought I had gone insane. Some humoured me, pretending to believe me – as if they were talking to a psychotic. Others exhibited outright Rage, that I could even suggest such a thing. They were completely convinced that bearded terrorists from caves in Afghanistan had done this.

I felt so alone, that it was as if I was having a nervous breakdown. No one would believe me, and the only way I could deal with it was by keeping quiet about it – at least amongst my work colleagues and friends.

And then we went to war with Iraq and killed and mutilated Millions of innocent people.

Yet still people can’t see how evil our tribe is, and mock those who point it out as being insane.

10 years ago, I would have been one of the mockers. I thought anyone who believed in conspiracy theories such as this to be totally nuts. Sure we were dropping bombs on Yugoslavia, but I believed the propaganda, that it was to prevent an even greater evil.

The greater evil is us. It is within ourselves and our governments and those who control them.

Until we acknowledge what the problem is, we can do nothing to improve the situation.

Tony

The best way to get rid of conspiracy theorists is to hold full and impartial inquiries into 9/11, 7/7, Dr Kelly’s death, Lockerbie etc

John D. “Either you believe in freedom of speech or you don’t.”

I do.

“Craig has not taken on any role as a censor of or commentator on zionism or anti-semitism.”

According to Craig, you’re wrong on both counts.

MS: “Whoever came up with the “denier” adjective,be it Holocaust or Climate Change,probably knew what they were doing.It seems to me that it is designed to stop debate dead on its tracks.”

Okay, MS, let’s debate it. Did the Holocaust really happen?

Arsalan: “I feel disappointed with your courage. I know you disagree with people on the blog, everyone on the blog disagrees with every other person on the blog. That is what happens when people are allowed to. But I would have assumed that you would have enough courage to state those disagreements to our faces, on the thread where we made them. Instead of on your own blog, so we have no way of knowing what you wrote so can’t respond to your accusations.”

I gave you the link to my blog and I was hardly shy of disagreeing with many of the commenters. I humbly apologize for not getting round to you.

Arsalan’s T-shirt: “Islam will Dominate!” And yet “Zionism” and “usury” are like, so unFAIR!!!

“Angry are you able to recognise the difference between Zionism and Judaism?”

Hmmm…That reminds me of something I read in a Theodore Dalrymple essay. He asked one of his patients in the prison he worked at, “Do you know the difference between guilty and not-guilty?” The prisoner replied, “Yes, guilty is where you admit what you did and not-guilty is where you don’t admit what you did.”

Happy New Year.

You don’t have to believe in any particular conspiracy theory to disbelieve the official version of 9/11. John Farmer, who was senior counsel to the US government’s investigating commission, says in his book ‘The Ground Truth’ that “at some level of the government, at some point in time…there was a decision not to tell the truth about what happened”.

You couldn’t have it straighter from the horse’s mouth than that.

angrysoba,

I’m glad I made you laugh, but if you were a little more perceptive you would realise that more than one Tony posts here. The writing styles are completely different for a start.

My comment

“Look – this is Total Fucking Bollocks To Try and Stop People From Trevelling in Aircaft. I Don’t Know Who is Behind It But Strongly Suspect It Is The Global Warming Cult….”

might seem insane to you. In fact if I objectively analyse my social and political interests, I should be a fully paid up member of Greenpeace, the Green Party and everything connected to the issue of environmental protection.

However, from an analytical point of view, based on fundamental hard physics, I am convinced that CO2 at anything like current levels, does not present any problem whatsover to the Earth’s climate, and higher levels of CO2 would be beneficial to life on the planet. This completely contradicts the views of the vast majority of my “tribe”.

There therefore needs to be another reason behind the current mass hysteria infecting governments across the World to make ludicrous decisions to confront a non problem, whilst doing absolutely nothing to confront real environmental problems.

My connecting of “pants on fire” with the Global Warming movement might seem ridiculous to you, but it is completely obvious that the hysterical reaction of even more draconian restrictions on air travel will be in a total agreement with the objectives of many within that camp. They want to stop air travel full stop (well except for their own beanfeasts in place like Copenhagen, Bali and Rio).

I accept that most of the Global Warmers believe their indoctrination and are sincere, in just the same way as you believe yours.

However, it is not they who pose the real problem. It is those who are really in control of the world wide propaganda. You may think that Global Warming, 9/11, Financial Collapse, Wars, and Total Control are different tunes, but I reckon there is one conductor in control of the orchestra and he is a complete cunt.

Tony

Angrysoba:

“As proof, one of the posters links to an article by reputable news source, Prison Planet:”

“Israel has announced that it is setting up a network of bloggers to combat websites deemed “problematic” by the Zionist state,”

I assume you use the word ‘reputable’ in the sarcastic sense.

Are you using the prison planet reference to discredit this claim, despite the reports origin in the Israeli news website Haaretz?

angrysoba

yes the Holocaust did happen.

but it’s not my opinion,it’s fact.but as a historical event it should be open to scrutiny.

It’s more important to focus on what’s happening now than whether the holocaust took place or not. It’s our governments who have recently exterminated more than a million Iraqis and maimed millions more. It’s our governments who are continually bombing civilians in lands rich in resources and strategically important to them.

And yet it seems it’s OK to do this but it wasn’t OK for the Germans to exterminate the Jews.

Funniest New Years Greeting I have come across

Sent by Text

“After due consideration, I have decided to renew our Friendship for 2010. DO NOT FUCK IT UP”

The full hilarity of this could only be understood if you know the personalities of the women involved. An interesting thing of note, is that the receiver of the message is completely laid back and the last person to Fuck Up any Friendship.

Another point, which is somewhat nicer, is that any fucking up of friendship has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that these women are of completely different races, culture and skin colour. Neither of them ever noticed that. They are both friends of my wife.

The sender of the message was once in my house, and demanding attention of everyone at a party in a similar way to that of a spoilt 5 year old child.

I said, your only problem is that you have taken your Yoga to the extreme and are one of the few people in the world who can actually achieve the feat of getting your head up your own backside.

5 minutes later, she said Tony, I think you have offended me. She then exploded into a rage and fucked off.

Tony

Quoth Jaded:

“Mike Cobley, anyone who lumps together all theorists that have ever hypothesised a conspiracy has got a serious intellectual problem. Do you believe that we really went to Iraq because of worry about WMD and we are honestly in Afghanistan hunting terrorists and promoting democracy?”

Sorry, my bad. I was specifically thinking about events like 9/11, 7/7, the attack on the USS Liberty, various solo bombers, suicide or not, events where it is difficult for the public to be sure just exactly what was going on. Iraq and Af-Pak are imperialist projects enacted out in the open, with politicians and media cheerleaders ignoring public doubt and anger while pushing the flimsiest of rationalisations for their murderous campaigns. Does that clarify it?

Tony, that is so off-topic it’s on another blog!

Angry

Yes I do believe you if you name us by name on your blog you should tell us.

Anticant

“Arsalan, I sometimes think you write with your tongue firmly in your cheek.”

That was my way of saying that I am not a truther.

What I meant was he decided to attack us behind our backs, and when it came to me personally he got it wrong.

Yes I have views that others wont like, but they are not the views he has accused me of having.

Anticant the main reason I don’t wear tshirts that say “Islam will dominate” because it is winter and it is too cold to wear Tshirts.

Instead I wear sweaters that say XL and some times XXL or L, but never M or XXXL.

Anticant no one wants to dominate you. Not me or anyone else. Other than the people who are already dominating everyone and they are not Muslim, and really they are not of any religion.

If people said Muslims will dominate they are calling for Muslims to become the ruling elite. I can’t speak for the person who held a bit of card board with “Islam will dominate” written on it, but to say he or the rest of the 1/4-1/3 of the world’s population who are Muslims want to dominate over the 3/4-2/3 who are not is not correct, because “Islam will dominate” does not mean “Muslims will dominate”. What it can mean is people will “see the light and convert”, in the context of the Muslim belief that Jesus will one day return carried down from the sky by two angels and kill the AntiChrist, and when this happens everyone will convert to Islam, so Islam will dominate.

Thanks Tony for the insight – yes 9/11 nearly drove me barmy on the Tory WebCameron blog before it was taken down after being swamped with arguments and counter arguments on the Physics of free falling towers and repeated posts on the environmental catastrophe of wind-farms built near communities. Ah those were the days. The peer reviewed scientific paper clinched it for me. Shame our children’s children will have to deal with the terrible truth, although perhaps the empire will be in charge by then. Jeez I’ve become so cynical in my old age!

Oh boy

MS: “Whoever came up with the “denier” adjective,be it Holocaust or Climate Change,probably knew what they were doing.It seems to me that it is designed to stop debate dead on its tracks.”

angrysoba: “Okay, MS, let’s debate it. Did the Holocaust really happen?”

MS: yes the Holocaust did happen.

but it’s not my opinion,it’s fact.but as a historical event it should be open to scrutiny.

Well, that is an improvement of sorts. The Holocaust is open to scrutiny, you fool! There are all kinds of different interpretations of it. For example, which side, MS, do you fall on the Christopher Browning-Daniel Jonah Goldhagen debate, I wonder?

The only kind of “debate” that the use of the term “denier” rules out when studying the Holocaust is whether it happened or not, so what makes you opposed to the word and how does it limit a debate on a subject that you have already ruled as fact?

angrysoba,

Did you spell your handle right?

Shouldn’t it be angrysoab?

Methinks you dost protesteth too much.

Incidentally, according to the book “A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order” by FW Engdahl, your tribe hardly gets a mention.

The evidence that the Anglo-Saxons have been the biggest cunts on the planet, with the main competetion coming from the Chineses and the Russians is pretty overwhelming.

Your tribe are such that they have nearly exterminated themselves and are merely the fall guys to be blamed by the idiots.

Do I get my 10 shekels now?

Tony

Arsalan, in my shivery old age I wear my T-shirt underneath my warm sweater, on the belt-and-braces principle.

I’m sure YOU don’t want to dominate me, but there are plenty of Muslims who think that I, as a gay man, should be killed. The extreme homophobia of many of your co-religionists is a nasty fact which has to be faced up to realistically, and not brushed under the carpet as in your rose-tinted fairy tale world.

But it doesn’t make me ‘Islamophobic’: See my posts “Religion gone rotten” and “Phobias – true and false” in Anticant’s Arena.

All best wishes to you and your family for 2010

Anticant

“The peer reviewed scientific paper clinched it for me.”

Mark Golding, you silly, sad person. You don’t understand the concept of peer review. It’s a cornerstone of science, and it’s not enough for someone to say, “This paper has been peer reviewed.” Peer review has to actually happen before it can be claimed to have had happened.

Mark Golding: “The peer reviewed scientific paper clinched it for me”

And which “peer-reviewed scientific paper” would this be?

I agree with Ruth’s comment “It’s more important to focus on what’s happening now than whether the holocaust took place or not.” Now to my mind holocaust denial is not only wrong and historically inaccurate, it is also cruel to the survivors and the relatives of the dead. But it happened 60 years ago and we don’t seem to have learnt much as a result of its memory. Just click on my name to see another case of human rights abuses by our government being widely denied.

Look at my well witnessed case (defamation, threats, harassment by MI5/6 on behalf of high establishment interests that are very close to the Royal Family) being covered up by 2 governments. Organizations like Amnesty International and The Guardian remaining silent because they put toadying to the establishment ahead of human rights where only one family is involved. They are today’s deniers. Do these censored and controlled organizations and their supporters have no shame?

As Les Dove describes in “The Torture Report” these same organizations cry crocodile tears at any human rights abuse abroad, while being careful to avoid any such issues at home.

A kind individual hit the nail on the head when he wrote recently on Media Lens ?” “Roderick Russell getting precious little help from anywhere, as the Black Dogs of Animal Farm persecute him illegally.”

angrysoba

I am old enough to remember the shockwaves caused by the newsreels of Nazi concentration camps when they were first entered by allied troops at the end of WW2, and I know people whose fathers and brothers serving in the British forces were traumatised for life by the horrors they saw in Belsen.

So I know that Holocaust denial is wicked rubbish.

But that is no excuse for using the Holocaust as a justification for the many immoral and reprehensible things done to the Palestinians by the State of Israel. Nor for the atrocities committed by the original terrorists – the Stern Gang – during the British mandate.

Two wrongs don’t make a right – unless one is a Zionist.

Tony: “Did you spell your handle right?

Shouldn’t it be angrysoab?”

No. What would that mean?

“Incidentally, according to the book “A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order” by FW Engdahl, your tribe hardly gets a mention.

The evidence that the Anglo-Saxons have been the biggest cunts on the planet, with the main competetion coming from the Chineses and the Russians is pretty overwhelming.

Your tribe are such that they have nearly exterminated themselves and are merely the fall guys to be blamed by the idiots.

Do I get my 10 shekels now?”

Tony, what the Hell are you babbling about you weirdo?

What is “my tribe”?

What is your tribe?

Why are you talking about being paid in shekels?

” It’s our governments who have recently exterminated more than a million Iraqis and maimed millions more. It’s our governments who are continually bombing civilians in lands rich in resources and strategically important to them.

And yet it seems it’s OK to do this but it wasn’t OK for the Germans to exterminate the Jews.”

Look, Ruth, there are plenty of wrongs about the Iraq war and plenty of things that should probably be keeping Bush and Blair awake at night (and may well do) but saying if it was okay for Bush and Blair to wage a war which unleashed a massive and hideous sectarian battle in Iraq then it was okay for the Nazis to kill six million Jews and millions of others is a ridiculously fatuous thing to say.

If I thought that I were living in Hitlers’s Germany, I would be resisting every day. I would be ethically compelled to blow up train tracks and destroy government buildings, and perhaps do even worse. At a minimum, I would exploit today’s free speech rights to protest every single day.

Since I don’t think I live in Hitler’s Germany, of course I’m off the hook.

But someone like Ruth, who believes that the U.K. and the U.S. of today is the same as the Germany of Hitler, is in a really bad position.

Well I’m sure she perhaps attended at least two protests this year. If the weather was nice.

@angrysoba : “…saying if it was okay for Bush and Blair to wage a war which unleashed a massive and hideous sectarian battle in Iraq then it was okay for the Nazis to kill six million Jews and millions of others is a ridiculously fatuous thing to say.”

No, angry-son-of-a-bitch (now do you get it?), ‘fatuous’ is turning Ruth’s argument around and then trying to make out that’s what she said.

@St Larry from Louis: “If I thought that I were living in Hitlers’s Germany, I would be resisting every day. I would be ethically compelled to blow up train tracks and destroy government buildings, and perhaps do even worse. At a minimum, I would exploit today’s free speech rights to protest every single day.”

Do you think you would notice?

“To live in the process is absolutely not to notice it – please try to believe me – unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop.

Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted.’… Believe me this is true. Each act, each occasion is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow… Suddenly it all comes down, all at once… You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.”

German professor describing the arrival of Nazism in Europe to American journalist Milton Mayer.

Angry Son Of a Bitch,

It is important to maintain a sense of humour when the bastards are coming for you.

I met an Israeli Vet on a Greek Island in September…He was 26 years old.

He had a great deal of difficulty in communicating.

I felt really sorry for his wife…

The Trauma must be aweful

Tony

Hawley Jr.

Maybe you should read a few of those I have mentioned earlier. Browning, Goldhagen…perhaps Hilberg or others.

Breaking in the shops of Jews or stripping them naked and shooting them in the back of the head may seem like “increments” to you but if that is the case then maybe you should be more on the lookout. After all, if those aren’t increments, maybe ranting about “usury” or “Zionism” or “global banking” is where it starts.

What do you think?

Do you think YOU would notice?

Larry says : “If I thought that I were living in Hitlers’s Germany, I would be resisting every day… ethically compelled to blow up train tracks and destroy government buildings, and perhaps do even worse. ”

Actually, you’d more than likely be an enthusiastic supporter. But to the point – if Ruth did any of these things you mention, even protesting, she’d be arrested and charged with terrorism. Just like a the vegan cook Maya Evans, who now has a charge of international terrorism for reading out the names of dead soldiers at the Cenotaph near Downing Street.

http://glennbarder.livejournal.com/3143.html

What are you trying to say, exactly – that Ruth is a coward for _not_ doing these things, or that she _should_ cause acts of terrorism (at least as the state sees it) ? Surely you wouldn’t be encouraging anyone to cause terrorist acts?

*

hawley_jr: I do believe you’ve read “They Thought They Were Free”… I was just thinking of getting my own copy to quote. That book, written in the late 1950s as I recall, serves as an incredibly important account of how ordinary people just became used to accepting what should be totally unacceptable. And incrementally is exactly how it happened – only the ill-informed would toss out the notion that Jews were stripped naked and shot as if that just spontaneously happened at the outset of the process of Nazism.

Here’s a academic review of the defining features of Fascism, as seen in Germany, Spain, Italy and so on:

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

There are alarming and growing similarities with our governments, particularly the US, and most especially under Bush. If anyone is serious about keeping fascism at bay, these are the points (in the link above) to be concerned about, not some nonsensical worry that someone is mentioning “usury” or “global banking”.

hawley_jr,

Great post.

Nearly as good as this on Alternet…

Posted by: red porch on Dec 31, 2009 7:09 AM

Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

“Laughing Stock Of The World…

A boy with a firecracker in his undies brings America to its knees…”

It gets my vote for the most efficient use of 18 words two of which were “a”

Tony

Most “ordinary nice decent” Germans were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler until it all started to go wrong for them.

After all, he restored their self-confidence and pride in being the ‘Master Race’.

What’s the difference between that self-delusion and American ‘exceptionalism’ and ‘manifest destiny’?

Glenn,

I don’t have time to look into that particular case, but I’m sure you have it entirely wrong. I know that the U.K. is not the most free country in terms of free speech, but surely it can’t be that you’re automatically arrested if you engage in protest.

If it is that bad in the U.K., that I encourage you to move to the U.S., where your crazy rants will remain unmolested. We have free speech here. I gather that the same is true for Japan, where angrysoba now resides.

“If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next”

The future teaches you to be alone

The present to be afraid and cold

So if I can shoot rabbits

Then I can shoot fascists

Bullets for your brain today

But we’ll forget it all again

Monuments put from pen to paper

Turns me into a gutless wonder

And if you tolerate this

Then your children will be next

And if you tolerate this

Then your children will be next

Will be next

Will be next

Will be next

Gravity keeps my head down

Or is it maybe shame

At being so young and being so vain

Holes in your head today

But I’m a pacifist

I’ve walked La Ramblas

But not with real intent

And if you tolerate this

Then your children will be next

And if you tolerate this

Then your children will be next

Will be next

Will be next

Will be next

Will be next

And on the street tonight an old man plays

With newspaper cuttings of his glory days

And if you tolerate this

Then your children will be next

And if you tolerate this

Then your children will be next

Will be next

Will be next

Will be next

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_mwiUYkJ8I

Tony

Glenn,

Rense.com? Rense.com?

Once again the crazy American right wing gets cited here!

@angrysoba: “Breaking in the shops of Jews or stripping them naked and shooting them in the back of the head may seem like “increments” to you…”

You are ascribing the words of a German professor to me. Though I can’t find any instance of the word ‘increments’ in the quote from him, nor any mention of the acts you’ve so graphically described.

My point to you was about the trick you used in responding to Ruth’s argument.

Larry said: “I don’t have time to look into that particular case, but I’m sure you have it entirely wrong”

Now that’s a level of arrogance and laziness I have not come across in some time. Typing “Maya Evans arrested” into a search engine, this was the first result:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4507446.stm

Since following links seem to cause you difficulty (I did provide references with the original), this is how the BBC starts the story:

—start quote

A peace campaigner has been convicted under a new law banning unauthorised protests from taking place within half a mile of Westminster.

Maya Anne Evans, 25, a vegan cook from Hastings, was found guilty of breaching Section 132 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act.

She was arrested in October after reading out names of soldiers killed in Iraq at central London’s Cenotaph.

—end quote

But I appreciate you’re a very busy man, far too busy to bother spending 30 seconds checking facts before calling someone “entirely wrong”.

As it happens, the US is not the greatest place for free speech either. Unless you call being penned into a “free speech zone” full exercise of the 1st amendment, for example. But it is a lot better than the UK when it comes to freedom of information, free speech rights, rights to publication and so on, I freely admit.

Larry from St. Louis,

In the UK, whilst most teenage kids get arrested for walking down the street so that the police can collect their DNA and give them a police record, the main reason they do this is so that they don’t try to travel to America…

In America, they arrest you and throw away the key.

Check the Statistics

You have more people in Jail, than the rest of the World combined…

Its the biggest growth industry in the USA

Slave Labour

The FEMA camps have been built for when outright Civil War brakes out…

Yes I have family in America, and I am delighted that most of the few remaining have already got jobs back in Europe and are working their notice – and will put up with being stripped naked and searched as they leave

Tony

this is interesting.

A lofty and patronising tone from some posters anent ‘conspiracy theories’. I recommend a read through Sachermann’s essay ‘Cognitive Processes and the Suppression of Sound Scientific Ideas’ – I believe it is applicable. A small extract:

“According to Aronson [ref], when people are confronted with opposing beliefs or ones incompatible with their own, they are likely to ignore or negate that belief. They do this in order to convince themselves that they have not behaved foolishly by committing to false beliefs. To assure themselves that they have been wise in supporting their position, they often convince themselves that those who oppose that position are foolish and truly objects for contempt and derision [ref].”

and

“Another study by Linda Simon, Jeff Greenberg, and Jack Brehm [ref] showed that trivialization is also effectively employed as a mode of dissonance reduction. The subjects in Simon et al.’s [ref] study were led to follow counter-attitudinal behaviors. They later chose to trivialize the dissonant information about themselves more often than they chose to change their opinions [ref].”

http://amasci.com/supress1.html

From Larry, another gem: “Rense.com? Rense.com? / Once again the crazy American right wing gets cited here!”

May I suggest you look up the “poisoning the well” logical fallacy. ok, ok, you can’t look things up (no time and all that), so here’s a reference:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

Oh yes, you’re not good at following references. Here’s a quote from the reference (if reading isn’t also too much for you these days):

—start quote—

This sort of “reasoning” involves trying to discredit what a person might later claim by presenting unfavorable information (be it true or false) about the person. This “argument” has the following form:

Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.

Therefore any claims person A makes will be false.

This sort of “reasoning” is obviously fallacious. The person making such an attack is hoping that the unfavorable information will bias listeners against the person in question and hence that they will reject any claims he might make. However, merely presenting unfavorable information about a person (even if it is true) hardly counts as evidence against the claims he/she might make. This is especially clear when Poisoning the Well is looked at as a form of ad Homimem in which the attack is made prior to the person even making the claim or claims.

—end quote—

If you’re still struggling to understand, allow me to explain. The 14 defining features of fascism were produced by this Dr. Lawrence Britt. Just because they’re quoted in a right-wing site is not a reason to get all hysterical and think that observation alone is enough to dismiss the entire point.

Of course you’re not interested in the issue, which is why you never reply to it. But invoking such a feeble logical fallacy as a counter is weak, even by your low standards.

North American Scum – LCD Soundsystem

Oh oh oh

oh i don’t know, i don’t know, oh, where to begin

we are north americans

and for those of you who still think we’re from england

we’re not, no.

we build our planes and our trains till we think we might die,

far from North America,

where the buildings are old and you might have lots of mimes.

aha, oh, oh.

i hate the feelin’ when you’re looking at me that way

cause we’re north americans

but if we act all shy, it’ll make it ok

makes it go away.

oh I don’t know, I don’t know, oh, where to begin

when we’re north american

but in the end we make the same mistakes all over again

come on north americans

we are north american scum

we’re from north america

and all the kids all the kids that want to make the scene

here in north america

when our young kids get to read it in your magazines

we don’t have those

so where’s the love where’s the love where’s the love where’s the love where’s the love tonight?

but there’s no love man there’s no love and the kids are uptight

so throw a party till the cops come in and bust it up

let’s go north americans

oh you were planning it i didn’t mean to interrupt

sorry

i did it once and my parents got pretty upset

freaked out in north america

but then i said the more i do it the better it gets

[ Lyrics found on http://www.metrolyrics.com ]

let’s rock north america

we are north american scum

we’re from north america

we are north american scum

we are north american

new york’s

the greatest if you get someone to pay the rent

wahoo north america

and it’s the furthest you can live from the government un huh huh

some proud american christians might disagree

here in north america

but new york’s the only place we’re keepin them off the street

boo boo now we can’t have parties like in spain where they go all night

shut down in north america

or like berlin where they go another night, alright, un huh un huh

you see i love this place that i have grown to know

alright, north america.

and yeah, I know you wouldn’t touch us with a ten-foot pole

’cause we’re north americans.

we are north american scum

we are north americans

we are north american scum

we love north america

take me back to the states man

north american scum

where we can be ????

north american

where the dj ????

here in north american scum

don’t blame the canadians

let go north america

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ2np7R-Uwg

Tony

Tony: May I suggest this classic for your next review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZzM4s0Hgs

It really is rather catchy!

mike cobley:

‘Sorry, my bad. I was specifically thinking about events like 9/11, 7/7, the attack on the USS Liberty, various solo bombers, suicide or not, events where it is difficult for the public to be sure just exactly what was going on. Iraq and Af-Pak are imperialist projects enacted out in the open, with politicians and media cheerleaders ignoring public doubt and anger while pushing the flimsiest of rationalisations for their murderous campaigns. Does that clarify it?’

Mike Cobley, if you are declaring yourself a barmy conspiracy theorist, then it clarifies it, as these things are not done out ‘in the open’. They are done under official narratives that talk of WMD, hunting terrorists and promoting democracy. Unless you wish to furnish me with an example of where this is done ‘in the open’? Seems you may just be a loon… ;-0

And angrysoab and Larry the Lamb are shills and it would indeed be the best thing for decent humanity to delete their comments and ban them. It’s so obvious it’s funny… ;-0

I see all the ‘Holocaust’ talk has started again. I do have a few questions for Lamby and soab if they will indulge me. If the ‘Holocaust’ is so set in stone, then why is it a crime to ‘deny’ it? I find it bizarre they went to the trouble of legislating on this issue. Is the basic assumption behind the legislation that everyone is incredibly stupid? Surely, if that were the case, it would make it nonsensical to legislate in the first place. Or is the basic assumption that everyone is a racist? Again, if that were the case, I don’t see legislation getting you very far. Finally, I always see ‘Holocaust denial’ inextricably linked with racism. I am flummoxed as to why a viewpoint on history automatically makes one a racist. Any explanation? To be clear, I am offering no opinion on the history here.

Mr. Murray, are you still paying belly dancer from Uzbekistan for sex?

Jaded, where is it a crime to deny the Holocaust? Certainly on continental Europe, of course, but they have their own history with both free speech and National Socialism. To me, it doesn’t make much sense for Austria to have a law criminalizing Holocaust denial, but it’s not something that gets me too upset.

Are you under the mistaken impression that it’s illegal to deny the Holocaust in the U.K.? That’s certainly not the case in the States.

Oh, how do you know i’m in the U.K.?

Glenn,

It’s not a fallacy because I’m not attacking what you wrote on the merits.

I don’t particularly feel like attacking you on the merits. You could post other factoids from Rense.com, some of which could easily involve lizard people and space lasers destroying the WTC and the coming 2012 Apocalypse – I just don’t care enough. I could never convince a believer in lizard people that lizard people don’t exist.

But, a small point on what you linked from that crackpot site – don’t you think that perhaps your opinions need to be adjusted now that the U.S. has elected Obama and the opposition party? To the extent that you believe the U.S. was on its way to fascism, doesn’t the Obama election mean something?

And I was citing your linking of Rense.com to further substantiate the link between the left wing in the U.K. and absolute crackpots in the U.S. It’s like there’s a rule that you people make this too damn easy.

“Oh, how do you know i’m in the U.K.?”

I dunno – U.K.-centric website perhaps.

Again, if you think it’s a crime to deny the Holocaust in the U.K., you’re mistaken.

Just perhaps then? Ok Lamby. You answer questions I haven’t asked. I was referring, obviously, to the countries where it is a crime. Any answers to my questions? For the record, I don’t think it will be too long before the U.K. follows suit.

Larry: I don’t care about rense.com and have no interest in lizard people. I was interested in the 14 markers of fascism, did a search, found that particular page listed them, and quoted the link. That’s why I quoted it. And Christ Almighty if all you can do is go on about other content about that site. So foam and splutter away with irrelevancies, _anything_ but talk about the 14 identifying features of fascism. You boring, stupid waste of time.

My new year’s resolution is to stop thinking one can get anything but wasted time out of fools, because they can indefinitely extend any argument with nothing but BS, as Larry-boy here has amply demonstrated.

Ask an Austrian legislator.

That was for Jaded.

What about the other countries in continental Europe that have ‘Holocaust denial’ as a crime? I didn’t think you’d have any answers Lamby. I have been proved conclusively correct, yet again… Sigh.

Glenn – To the extent that you believe the U.S. was on its way to fascism, doesn’t the Obama election mean something?

“I have been proved conclusively correct, yet again”

Please tell me what you were correct about.

Larry:

Glenn – To the extent that you believe the U.S. was on its way to fascism, doesn’t the Obama election mean something?

Undoubtedly, it means they are well on the way.

Larry:

‘”I have been proved conclusively correct, yet again”

Please tell me what you were correct about.’

You seem to have a lot of answers, but have failed dismally on answering any of these questions. I had a ‘feeling in my bones’ that you would. Therefore, I have been proved ‘conclusively correct’. Don’t fret Lamby. It’s ok…

Because I can’t explain Austrian or German law to you, you’ve scored a point? And what exactly did you get correct?

You seem like someone who was educated in British schools.

I was referring to no specific country, there are actually a few in continental Europe that have ‘Holocaust denial’ as a crime, and was simply asking if you – as the ‘answerer of unlimited questions’ you seem to be – could provide me any logic behind the laws. There is uually logic behind law – regardless if one agrees with the logic – is there not?

P.S. I find it very funny that you felt it necessry to throw in the British school jibe, as you ‘know’ i’m in the U.K..

Yes, I’m a Secret Agent Man, and we’re all watching you.

So, no answers as I hypothesised. I have indeed been proved ‘conclusively correct’, yet again. Don’t fret Lamby. It’s ok…

Damn, Jaded., correct about what?

Have some pride in yourself. Be responsible for your beliefs. Have a bit of courage. Please tell us what you’re correct about.

Yes, I’m a Secret Agent Man, and we’re all watching you.

—”Larry” from “St. Louis”

They must be taking them in denser and denser. You can’t hold an argument together for love nor money. Go ‘debate’ on your own sites, where people will pay serious attention to you.

Lamby:

‘Damn, Jaded., correct about what?

Have some pride in yourself. Be responsible for your beliefs. Have a bit of courage. Please tell us what you’re correct about.’

I already have you silly billy. Correct in my hypothesis that you – as the seeming ‘answerer to unlimited questions’ on this site – would provide no answers to my questions. See my post at 10.57p.m. for further clarification. Are you drunk or something? Please don’t hesitate to approach me for further assistance Lamby.

angrysoba

I think ‘holocaust denial’ is an umbrella term,if you like,that ghettoizes anyone who questions any aspect of the ‘official’ discourse – so it doesn’t just apply to nutters who deny it.

This is a tiresome discussion to engage in,especially with someone who appears to be narrow-minded and patronizing.

Happy 2010.

What Keeps me Going is My Wife

I have a Muscular Problem and slowly have to build up to this…

Its about conditioning my muscles…

Slowly buildng up to this…

You know Mosh Pit Stuff – Like Teenage Kids Do…

Well I Hugged and Kissed EVERYONE after The Mosh Dance Oud Lang Zyne

The Only People I actually lifted off the floor were Blokes

The African Chef was exceedingly heavy

Tony

Happy New Year to you too, MS.

“I think ‘holocaust denial’ is an umbrella term,if you like,that ghettoizes anyone who questions any aspect of the ‘official’ discourse – so it doesn’t just apply to nutters who deny it.”

Okay, so you have said that the Holocaust is a fact but you don’t like the way the word “denier” is thrown around. But what “aspects” of the official discourse do you think are squeezed out by this term. What questions about the Holocaust (or, perhaps as Jaded curiously has it, the ‘Holocaust’) do you think are legitimate that don’t get enough debate?

Also, I’d like to point out a couple of ironies I’ve just noticed.

1) While some commenters here are pouting about the use of the term “denier” limiting free inquiry it was David Irving who took Deborah Lipstadt to court in a libel case for calling him a Holocaust denier.

(And, as has been pointed out, whatever the laws are in Germany and in other countries where the actual Holocaust took place, Holocaust denial is not illegal in the UK, the US or here in Japan.)

2) While Craig Murray made a post suggesting I wanted comments to be removed and I was some kind of anti-freespeech ogre, it continues to be commenters who disapprove of MY comments calling for censorship.

Here is the indefatigably obtuse Jaded:

“And angrysoab and Larry the Lamb are shills and it would indeed be the best thing for decent humanity to delete their comments and ban them. It’s so obvious it’s funny… ;-0″

MS, I’ll rephrase my question to make it clearer:

“What questions about the Holocaust (or, perhaps as Jaded curiously has it, the ‘Holocaust’) do you think are legitimate that are suppressed by the word “denier”?”

Angry Soab,

In England where we live, we don’t give a fuck what the colour of your skin is, nor your race or religion…

You can believe what the fuck you want

You can look like what the fuck you want

But don’t come over here to England talking Welsh or Scottish or Irish

If you want to talk to me in a most extreme dialect

Speak English Slowly or Buy Me a Pint

Or Fuck Off

Tony

Allah, Glory be to Him in the highest, states in the Qur’an that a high proportion of human beings are trouble makers. It’s not always easy for seekers of truth to put their fingers on the precise way that the trouble-making is being achieved. It is more like a taste in the mouth. As a Muslim I can now detect the flavour of bacon in nano quantities from the knife used to cut a shop sandwich. But I couldn’t explain the slightly acidic flavour or how I can detect it.

Similarly, I can explain the difference between a racist nationalist tyrant like Saddam Hussain and a politically correct, anything goes liberal, democratically elected politician like Tony Blair. I can detect lying like I can detect bacon fat and Tony Blair is a liar and Saddam was not.

Saddam wanted to reverse the effects of Western colonialism that had stolen oil and self-respect from the Arab world but Nationalism was not the Islamic answer and he was definitely misguided. But Tony Blair wanted to continue the theft from and humiliation of the Muslim world and he has used lies against Islam and Allah to achieve his ends. All I can say is that lying and not lying is not the same taste.

Trolls are chewy and misguided, but to be misguided is human. Our present world leaders come across as menacing and mischievous, absolutely uncaring, while pretending to be caring. they always seem to land butter side up. In my opinion, anyone who trusts any of them at this present time has lost his / her faculty of conscience. They are what Muslims refer to as the Anti-christ, not because they are the anti-christ in person but because that appears to be their taste.

Those of us who seek truth are being trained by practising with these deviant and devious liars and their legions of semi-articulate trolls, how not to be deceived by the real, and approaching Anti-christ.

“Angry Soab,

In England where we live, we don’t give a fuck what the colour of your skin is, nor your race or religion…

You can believe what the fuck you want

You can look like what the fuck you want

But don’t come over here to England talking Welsh or Scottish or Irish

If you want to talk to me in a most extreme dialect

Speak English Slowly or Buy Me a Pint

Or Fuck Off

Tony”

Tony, at this point it may well be past your bedtime. You’ve hit the loopyjuice pretty hard, I can see, but it is New Year so don’t worry about that.

Night night.

(Please forgive Tony – there’s no breathalyser fitted to his PC as yet.)

Larry and angry-soab: Do you support this War On Terror? If so, why haven’t you signed up for combat? I’d appreciate a straightforward answer, if you would be so kind.

Perhaps you are currently very old, and possibly infirm. Unless that has always been the case, which wars have you fought in? I’m sure there have been wars you approve of while you were of military age. There is _always_ a war or two being waged by America, in which the entire nation is about to go under without extraordinary sacrifice and courage.

*

Happy new year/ decade to all, even to you self-flagellating right wingers who work so hard against your own interests!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98qdFQF7sw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0IRY_eWuIw

“Larry and angry-soab: Do you support this War On Terror?”

I think the “War on Terror” is a stupid phrase, like “War on Drugs” or “War on Poverty” or “War on Crime” none of those things can ever surrender.

I also think that “New World Order” is a pat political phrase made by politicians who want to think they’ve actually got ideas and are not just another bland suit but it is a phrase that is taken by conspiracy theorists to mean some kind of exciting science fiction totalitarian society that the CTs are brave and noble dissidents against. They are fantasists and really wish people such as me and Larry were COINTELPRO agents as it makes them feel important and useful when they are, in reality, unimportant and useless.

Having said that it seems boring and conventional to point out that some people do want to blow up aircraft or underground trains and they will probably want to do that whether there are wars in Afghanistan or not.

So, my answer is, I don’t recognize the “war on terror” just as I don’t recognize the “New World Order.”

some years ago, i used to just testify my beliefs online, until i noticed that i wasnt doing my beliefs any service, without being civil and informed.

happy new decade

-god lets stop crushing people

Hi Craig,

I love this post, thank you for pointing out how this simple minded git called “angrysoab” is either an ignorant condescending fool, or a ignorant condescending facilitator.

I tend to believe he’s a facilitator, since he’s been personally to 9/11 events and has attempted to interrupt and corner people with this ‘holocaust denial=9/11 truth’ crap. Look his posts up on JREF ‘conspiracy theory’ subforum. He came out of nowhere like a good little facilitator, and now he’s all over the place, even at your site, Craig.

Angry, go back to your little James Randy Educational Forum, or back to the Screw loose change blogspot blog and continue posting your uninformed garbage there.

Leave this place alone, since it apparently is all bullshit. If you don’t like it, fuck off.

Go post a negative blog post about this man (craig) who has put his life on the line for your god damn freedom and your god damn children freedom.

If you were my school teacher, and i saw how you behave on the web, i would shoot myself for letting you ‘teach’ me. God forbid… You’ve come across as a child.

“I tend to believe he’s a facilitator, since he’s been personally to 9/11 events and has attempted to interrupt and corner people with this ‘holocaust denial=9/11 truth’ crap.”

Where do I say Holocaust denial is equal to 9/11 Troof?

“If you were my school teacher, and i saw how you behave on the web, i would shoot myself”

Then I wish I was your school teacher. Can we just pretend I am?

Angrysoba, you seem full of strong opinions. I wonder if you could perhaps provide any answers to my previous post that seemed to perplex Lamby. Here it is:

Jaded:

‘I see all the ‘Holocaust’ talk has started again. I do have a few questions for Lamby and soab if they will indulge me. If the ‘Holocaust’ is so set in stone, then why is it a crime to ‘deny’ it? I find it bizarre they went to the trouble of legislating on this issue. Is the basic assumption behind the legislation that everyone is incredibly stupid? Surely, if that were the case, it would make it nonsensical to legislate in the first place. Or is the basic assumption that everyone is a racist? Again, if that were the case, I don’t see legislation getting you very far. Finally, I always see ‘Holocaust denial’ inextricably linked with racism. I am flummoxed as to why a viewpoint on history automatically makes one a racist. Any explanation? To be clear, I am offering no opinion on the history here.’

Don’t let me down now son. I am waiting in great anticipation…

Jaded,

I don’t know why denying the Holocaust is illegal in some countries but I’ll have a guess and you can judge whether or not it sounds correct or perhaps tell us the real reason.

Could it be that just about all countries in which Holocaust denial is criminalized are countries which are understandably ashamed for their part in it? Could it be that they don’t want people in those countries trying to rehabilitate Hitler as some misunderstood genius as any underground neo-Nazis try to do? Could it be that most Holocaust deniers are not children who haven’t learnt much history yet but adults with political agendas who sift through the record looking for anomalies that they try to fashion “theories” out of?

I’ve told you what I think about anti-Holocaust denial legislation and that I don’t agree with incarcerating those who deny the Holocaust but you have to realize that it comes from a well-meaning attempt to be frank about past crimes. It is unfortunately counterproductive because it allows tossbags like yourself to say, “Oooh! in Austria it’s illegal to deny the Holocaust! That IS interesting…wonder if there’s a sinister reason behind it…”

No, you haven’t told me anything you dimwit. You’ve just posed a raft of hypothetical questions and not given your own position. On top of that you seem to have mistakenly put words in my mouth. That ceratinly doesn’t surprise me. For the record, laws against ‘Holocaust Denial’ exist in 13 countries. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

I wonder what plans the E.U. might have for expanding these laws. I still await to hear your firm view on this issue and will remind you that you didn’t even attempt to answer my question of why ‘Holocaust Denial’ is inextricably linked with racism. Don’t fret though. It’s ok…

I’ve spent twelve hours drinking champagne in the company of beautiful women. But I think this blog is much better when it gets commenters with a wide range of opinions. I hope some of our intermittent or new interlocutors will stay with us.

Craig, could you substantiate your claim about the CIA torturing people with broken bottles?

Craig, you now have some familiar sicko falsifying posts with my tag. Please delete the offending bile. Yes, very clever little kiddie that did it. Bravo!

Larry,

To the best of my knowledge, the CIA do not torture people with broken bottles. The Uzbek security services do, and the CIA hand people over to them to be tortured, and receive the resulting intelligence reports.

This debate is getting bogged down on the subject of holocaust denial.

Of course the holocaust happened. Millions of innocent people were brutally murdered by the evil Nazi regime.

But angrysoba still does not understand the difference between Zionism and Judaism as demonstrated by his reply at 2:21

“”Angry are you able to recognise the difference between Zionism and Judaism?”

Hmmm…That reminds me of something I read in a Theodore Dalrymple essay. He asked one of his patients in the prison he worked at, “Do you know the difference between guilty and not-guilty?” The prisoner replied, “Yes, guilty is where you admit what you did and not-guilty is where you don’t admit what you did.”"

Judaism is a religion, Zionism is a political movement based on the premise that one group of people should be able to emigrate to Palestine and displace the indigenous population.

It is perfectly possible to be anti Zionist without being anti semitic (except in the eyes of the Israeli and US states)

Here is a good video of Craig denouncing Zionism nearly a year ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt4S8AGPGfk

Some ultra orthodox Jews are fiercely anti zionist like this lot.

http://www.nkusa.org/

Larry:

‘Yes, I’m a Secret Agent Man, and we’re all watching you.’

You are just a lowly internet dogsbody agent that may well actually believe the bile you are instructed to disseminate. They wouldn’t physically ‘watch’ me, as they’d have no reason to. They monitor the online activity of dissidents and you inevitably get stuck on some list. They probably have different criteria for a few different lists. If you piss the scumbags off a lot you probably graduate to the ‘harassment list’ where you will get irritated in various ways by the small element of ‘dogsbody’ police and security service employees that carry out such lowlife activities. But, of course, despite the concrete records of this happening in other countries it could never happen in the good old U.K.. Oh, no, no, no, no. We are different humans here… ;-0

@craig: “I’ve spent twelve hours drinking champagne in the company of beautiful women. But I think this blog is much better when it gets commenters with a wide range of opinions.”

I would have thought twelve hours spent drinking champagne in the company of beautiful women was much better than a blog, no matter how wide the range of commenters’ opinions.

Question for Larry: what are your views on the Patriot Act and do you think it should be renewed?

That was a good point about renewing the Patriot Act. They need filthy legislation like that to keep dissenting voices in check.

‘Yes, we are under attack from ‘Al Qaeda’ and we never seem to get Bin Laden, but we still manage to find the time to clamp down on Patriots at home.’

You couldn’t make it up. Honestly!

Jaded,

I am not “the answerman”. I explicitly told you I don’t know why there is legislation against denying the Holocaust. I simply gave you my speculation and I asked you to consider what I speculated.

Now, perhaps YOU can tell me why there is legislation against Holocaust denial…

THAT would be worth listening to.

Craig: “I hope some of our intermittent or new interlocutors will stay with us.”

I’ll be more than happy to.

I think I have made my position quite explicit. My quarrel with you was merely with the dismissive way in which you treated the attempted bombing of a civilian airline. I think you have moved gradually, if grudgingly, more towards my position on that.

But my quarrel with some of your commenters is much stronger.

Jaded?…..Bwah hah hah hah! Gotta love it -

“Mike Cobley, if you are declaring yourself a barmy conspiracy theorist, then it clarifies it, as these things are not done out ‘in the open’. They are done under official narratives that talk of WMD, hunting terrorists and promoting democracy. Unless you wish to furnish me with an example of where this is done ‘in the open’? Seems you may just be a loon… ;-0″

Well, its like this. To someone like myself (who follows Chomsky’s edict ‘Pay attention to what they do before you pay attention to what they say’) the war of aggression waged against Iraq then Afghanistan was clearly done for imperial purposes. Sure, I was aware of the deceit in the official MSM narratives, along with a sizable proportion of the populace. So, Jaydid, seems to me that we’re actually on the same side here, unless you are really just a fireeater who will eat fire, even if they have to light it themselves!

And I can’t be a loon, cos I dont come from Troon

angrysoba:

‘Jaded,

I am not “the answerman”. I explicitly told you I don’t know why there is legislation against denying the Holocaust. I simply gave you my speculation and I asked you to consider what I speculated.

Now, perhaps YOU can tell me why there is legislation against Holocaust denial…

THAT would be worth listening to.’

Well, here it comes so listen, listen good, you dumbass. I can think of NO good reason why there is ‘legislation’ against ‘Holocaust denial’. It’s insane!

Mike Cobley:

‘Jaded?…..Bwah hah hah hah! Gotta love it -

“Mike Cobley, if you are declaring yourself a barmy conspiracy theorist, then it clarifies it, as these things are not done out ‘in the open’. They are done under official narratives that talk of WMD, hunting terrorists and promoting democracy. Unless you wish to furnish me with an example of where this is done ‘in the open’? Seems you may just be a loon… ;-0″

Well, its like this. To someone like myself (who follows Chomsky’s edict ‘Pay attention to what they do before you pay attention to what they say’) the war of aggression waged against Iraq then Afghanistan was clearly done for imperial purposes. Sure, I was aware of the deceit in the official MSM narratives, along with a sizable proportion of the populace. So, Jaydid, seems to me that we’re actually on the same side here, unless you are really just a fireeater who will eat fire, even if they have to light it themselves!

And I can’t be a loon, cos I dont come from Troon ’

I hope we are on the same side Mike. If we are, then that makes us conspiracy theorists ‘for now’. Have you seen these videos by the way Mike?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03T1VvMJNxk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5vCOnk9CKk&feature=related

Angrysoba, Meacher and Von Bulow are ‘nutters’ right? *Nods head vigorously.* ;-0

Mike Cobley:

‘Jaded?…..Bwah hah hah hah! Gotta love it -

“Mike Cobley, if you are declaring yourself a barmy conspiracy theorist, then it clarifies it, as these things are not done out ‘in the open’. They are done under official narratives that talk of WMD, hunting terrorists and promoting democracy. Unless you wish to furnish me with an example of where this is done ‘in the open’? Seems you may just be a loon… ;-0″

Well, its like this. To someone like myself (who follows Chomsky’s edict ‘Pay attention to what they do before you pay attention to what they say’) the war of aggression waged against Iraq then Afghanistan was clearly done for imperial purposes. Sure, I was aware of the deceit in the official MSM narratives, along with a sizable proportion of the populace. So, Jaydid, seems to me that we’re actually on the same side here, unless you are really just a fireeater who will eat fire, even if they have to light it themselves!

And I can’t be a loon, cos I dont come from Troon ’

I hope we are on the same side Mike. If we are, then that makes us conspiracy theorists ‘for now’. Have you seen these videos by the way Mike?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03T1VvMJNxk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5vCOnk9CKk&feature=related

Angrysoba, Meacher and Von Bulow are ‘nutters’ right? *Nods head vigorously.* ;-0

Jaded: “Well, here it comes so listen, listen good, you dumbass. I can think of NO good reason why there is ‘legislation’ against ‘Holocaust denial’. It’s insane!”

You’re a fucking idiot.

Just because you can’t think it doesn’t mean there is no reason.

You fucking Nazi Cunt.

“You f*cking Nazi C*nt.”

Decent!

“Angrysoba, Meacher and Von Bulow are ‘nutters’ right?”

Yes, they can be nutters, and they are in fact nutters. Occasionally nutters get elected.

wow angrysoba lost the cool, and the argument, i wonder if he’ll go now to JREF or SLC or his own blogspot shithole and post how ‘craig murray is a nut’ and how we’re all nutters here for questioning 9/11 and the consequent war on terror.

all from his nice cozy government paid room in Japan…

sad sad sad

Angrysoba:

‘You’re a fucking idiot.

Just because you can’t think it doesn’t mean there is no reason.

You fucking Nazi Cunt.’

You never answered the question of why ‘Holocaust denial’ always seems to be inextricably linked to racism by the way. I think it is a very important questions and needs answering. I have thought about using logic. Surely, any ‘anti-semitic nutter’ would be glorifying the ‘Holocaust’ and not denying it? That’s how I see it.

Any historical discourse that needs backing up by legislation seems very shaky to me. The Jews, other groups too, suffered dreadful persecution in the years leading up to the war and during the war. It was all terrible and shocking. The question of planned total extermination is a pertinent one though. They were certainly used as a source of labour in some camps. Why would the Nazis brand with numbers, absolutely disgusting I know, people they were going to kill? Admittedly, every Jew that died from malnutrition, illness etc. may as well have been murdered. Furthermore, the Nazis may well have tested gas on the Jews. If the Nazis had won maybe their fate would have been genocidal, I don’t know. At the end of the day, I think the 6 million mantra of systematic extermination is a cynical exaggeration. It was used to help set up Israel and has been used ever since for political capital. Israel is here now and I favour a two state solution. I don’t have a problem with Israel. However, I think they should stop trying to rule the U.K. and U.S. and sod off out of our governments! If Israel got ‘unjustly attacked’ I would speak out and support backing them militarily. That’s obviously because i’m a real NAZI CUNT! ;-0

Larry:

‘Yes, they can be nutters, and they are in fact nutters. Occasionally nutters get elected.’

Brilliant analysis Lamby…

Anticant,

Sorry for the late reply, I left it a while because I didn’t want to divert to topic again.

When I stated Muslims do not want to dominate you I was talking about ALL Muslims not just myself. Right now we are a dominated people, we are too busy trying to live with this domination to be concerned about dominating others.

When I stated that I am the extreme, I wasn’t being tongue in check, I meant it literally. I am not one of those new liberal westernised whatever they call themselves who try and suck up to the dominate indigenous culture, I see myself as being in the extreme opposite to that gang.

I will try and be as clear as possible. Muslims do not want to kill you. It is drunken football hooligans, Hoodies and chavs who gay bash not Muslims.

You probably know that the Christian/Jewish Bible mandates the death penalty for Homosexual acts, Leviticus 20:13. Gay bashers do not kill or beat people because of this verse, they do so because they are violent thugs who would beat someone else up just as easily.

The reason why you wouldn’t get a Christian priest or a Jewish Rabbi implementing this rule, is laws came for governments, not individuals. But when it comes to belief, they believe in that verse of the Bible as much as they believe in any other.

The Quran sets a punishment for heterosexual fornication as 100 lashes. Just as you are not in danger of being killed by Christians and Jews who believe in the whole Bible including Leviticus 20:13, heterosexual fornicators in this country are not in danger of being whipped by a Muslim 100 times. Why?

Laws came for rulers, to be implemented by judges and enforced by the police. This country is not an Islamic state, you and they are not going to be arrested for your life styles.

The Sunnah (Recorded words and actions of the Prophet pbh) mandates the death penalty for Heterosexual adultery, Bestiality and the homosexual acts of sodomy(both parties). You are in no danger from us. This country is not an Islamic state, the only people allowed to enforce such laws are the police so no one will attack you for your way of life other then drunken thugs, but they would have attacked you even if you were not gay using some other excuse.

The reason why I am writing this is to show you I am not trying to brush anything under the carpet, I do not lie to make myself, my coreligionists or what I believe to be God’s Final revelation something which it is not. I am someone who couldn’t careless what people think of me or my religion. I give people the facts and then they can make up their own minds. So when I tell you, you are not going to be attacked by me, or any practicing Muslim, I mean that and I am not saying it to make you think Islam is some sort of liberal, humanistic secular philosophy. The only people likely to attack you are drunken thugs and they would have done so even if you were not gay because I am not and I’ve been beaten up by them when they used other excuses such as Arsenal losing a football match.

The population of this country are not suddenly going to convert to Islam, and even if they do suddenly decide to do so within your life time, and decide to rule this country by Islam you are still not in danger because for someone to be punished for Fornication, adultery and homosexuality they would need to do that act in front of four trust worthy witnesses, and the witnesses would have had to witnessed pen in ink at the sametime.

So let me make this as clear as possible, no one wants to dominate you. Muslims are not plotting to do some sort of revolution here. So you are in no danger of being dominated. Even if Muslims were planning to do something like that they will not be interested in what you get up to in your own bedroom. Unless you do what you should have done in your bedroom out in the street, but in that case you would have been punished even if you were heterosexual. Even if someone decides to do it where others can see, any less then four witnesses who witnessed pen in ink will mean all the witnesses are wiped for slander.

“wow angrysoba lost the cool, and the argument, i wonder if he’ll go now to JREF or SLC or his own blogspot shithole and post how ‘craig murray is a nut’ and how we’re all nutters here for questioning 9/11 and the consequent war on terror.

all from his nice cozy government paid room in Japan…

sad sad sad”

Ha ha! Brilliant.

I can’t see what argument I lost. I said I don’t know why it’s illegal to deny the Holocaust in some countries but offered a few plausible reasons. Jaded says I am wrong and says that it is inexplicable that it is illegal to deny the Holocaust. I don’t see how he won an argument on the strength of that.

‘You never answered the question of why ‘Holocaust denial’ always seems to be inextricably linked to racism by the way. I think it is a very important question and needs answering. I have thought about it using logic. Surely, any ‘anti-semitic nutter’ would be glorifying the ‘Holocaust’ and not denying it? That’s how I see it.’

Angrysoba, oh site guru, do you have an answer to this question or not?

Jaded:

Answers were given.

Why are you persisting in this belligerent off-topic badgering?

You are beginning to seem obsessed with that huge chip on your shoulder.

Jews suffered terribly in WWII, along with Poles, gypsies, handicapped and many other people. Denying the atrocities deepens the wounds, and that is why some countries legislate against denial – in an attempt to prevent further suffering.

Why do you not see that?

PS I am not Jewish, Zionist, nor paid by Zog.

Bear, answers were given to ‘some’ questions eventually after repeatedly asking, which I did find very strange given the unlimited answers to any topic these people seemed to have at their disposal. However, if by saying ‘answers were given’ you are referring to my previous post you are 100% ‘incorrect’, as no answer was given to that question. Moreover, if you take the time to reread the thread properly, which you obviouisly haven’t done, you will clearly see it wasn’t I that introduced this issue to the thread. Maybe you should tell them to shut up? Furthermore, we are not talking about ‘denying atrocities’ perpetrated against a variety of groups, which I am fully aware indeed happened. We are talking about legislation introduced to set in stone a very specific and narrow viewpoint about the attempted systematic extermination of one of the said groups, the Jews, which has been cynically exaggerated and used for political gain. Why do you not see that?

All this black and white ‘did happen’/'didn’t happen’ nonsense is just beyond me and for little kiddies and morons to fight over. The people that introduced this legislation are dangerous and clowns.

Jaded, I’ve submitted an answer to your question but it hasn’t appeared yet as it has a number of links.

You’ll just have to wait for it.

“The people that introduced this legislation are dangerous and clowns.”

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/John_Wayne_Gacy_Pogo_the_clown.jpg

Arsalan, no doubt you believe what you say is true, but like so many posters here you prefer your cherished beliefs to hard facts.

Before you repeat with such cocksureness that Muslims don’t hate gays and wish them no harm, please read “Unspeakable Love: Gay and Lesbian Life in the Middle East” by Brian Whitaker (Saqi Books, 2006). I hope that others will too, and decide for themselves how realistic your bland honeyed assurances are.

Yes, don’t speak for yourself. Just post a raft of links.

I just checked out angrisoba’s blog.

I reckon I’ll be spending more time here this year than there!

The guy is a gate-keeper.The knee-jerk resort to the term “conspiracy theorist” to describe anyone who questions official historical accounts of the “Holocaust”,the JFK assassination,9/11,Dr Kelly,7/7 is a clue to the way this guy is covering the backsides of the elites he pretends to critique.

The official accounts in all the above cases are indecently threadbare and ultimately unsustainable.

What angrisoba and gate-keepers like him can’t get their heads around is the fact that the majority of the public are now firmly in the “conspiracy” camp.Now it has become abundantly clear that elites have used the corporate media,official history and cover-ups to deceive us about their true agenda people are no longer willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Most people now understand that elites plan in secret,that their public pronouncements are mere window dressing.There is an increasing acknowledgement that we need to be vigilant about any semblance of democracy we might have left.

In other words we have to hold them to account all the time not just every five years.

angrisoba,and gate-keepers,like him use the term “conspiracy theorist” in the same way elites use it-to marginalize any questioning of official reality.

The fact that angrisoba refers pejoratively to the 9/11 “Troof” movement gives you some idea of the abject level of elite conditioning to which he’s succumbed.When someone can’t even spell the word “truth” it’s a sure sign that they have become a stranger to it.They have gone so far down the road of internalizing official histories as “facts” that these often transparent fallacies are now part of their cellular structure.

Notwithstanding postmodernist problematizations of the concept of truth the fact that it is the most desirable end to the path that human curiosity and enquiry might take remains.

My advice to all fans of Craig’s blog and the open forum it provides is to jealously guard it from would-be censors like angrisoba.

His blog will go the way of all the other cyphers for state disinformation should-in the bin or down the toilet!

“I don’t have a problem with Israel. However, I think they should stop trying to rule the U.K. and U.S.”

This, plus the ongoing denial of the Final Solution, is evidence of a very sick, very classically antisemitic mind. Why bother to engage with such sick people?

“Zionism is a political movement based on the premise that one group of people should be able to emigrate to Palestine and displace the indigenous population”

As dumb and ignorant and antisemitic as it gets. The Jews are a nation. They are the indigenous population of Israel. Zionism is their national liberation movement in their own country.

Have I mentioned that you are a thick antisemite?

Yes, it is very sick to want the rulers of your country not to be from another country. I sincerely apologise for such thoughts. ;-0

I don’t see any quotes to back up your other mindless and crazy ramblings so i’ll leave you to wallow in your sick pit of denial and paranoia. One day you might be able to clamber out my son, one day. I sincerely hope so anyway… ;-0

jaded,

you are a punk, a nasty and rather stupid punk.

What’s the matter with you? Anti-semite?

At least try to keep on topic.

“We are talking about legislation introduced to set in stone a very specific and narrow viewpoint about the attempted systematic extermination of one of the said groups, the Jews, which has been cynically exaggerated and used for political gain. Why do you not see that?”

Even if this is true, which I don’t think it is, why does it matter to you, and why go on and on and on about it in this thread?

The reason some countries introduced these laws against holocaust denial was precisely to deter punks like you from upsetting the survivors.

You are a far-right UKIP anti-semite, and you remind me very much of someone I met in the Norwich North campaign.

Oh, and like Bear says, I am not Jewish or Zionist or paid by ‘Zog’. I don’t agree with many acts by modern Israel. But that doesn’t mean I have to accept your mewling.

I’m an anglo-saxon anti-racist and I know bigotry when I see it.

“i’ll leave you to wallow in your sick pit of denial and paranoia”

Finally some self-knowledge from Jaded, an utterly ignorant and antisemitic moron.

Jaded,

You asked me why it is that Holocaust deniers are usually anti-semites when according to you they should be fans of the Holocaust.

“I have thought about it using logic. Surely, any ‘anti-semitic nutter’ would be glorifying the ‘Holocaust’ and not denying it? That’s how I see it.’”

Where your “logic” falls down is that some Holocaust deniers don’t necessarily truly believe a Holocaust didn’t happen but for propaganda purposes they want to convince others that the Nazis weren’t that bad. Maybe some of them are like you and are eager to believe that the Holocaust is a lie to benefit the Jews, which is what your stated belief is.

But whatever stupid “Troofer” logic you employ the evidence is that Holocaust deniers are anti-semites.

Do you think Richard Harwood, National Front member and author of “Did Six Million Really Die?” is not an anti-semite?

Do you think that Holocaust denier former Grand Wizard of the KKK, David Duke is not an anti-semite?

Do you think that Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson is not an anti-semite?

Do you think that Holocaust denier David Irving is not an anti-semite?

angrysoba, Jaded doesn’t “think”. He merely copies screeds from neo-nazi websites.

Interesting, Barbara: do you also ‘not agree with many acts by modern China, Norway, Japan, Peru and Greece’? Or do you feel compelled to make this absurd and mealy-mouthed statement with regard to Israel only?

And while we are at it:

Does Murray think that the Jews deserve to be free in their own country?

Does angrysoba think that the Jews deserve to be free in their own country?

Does Jadummkopf think that the Jews deserve to be free in their own country?

The term “semite” more accurately describes the indigenous Palestinians than it does the so-called “Jews”.

The Askenazi are by far the dominant group among World Jewry and they are not semites at all.They are descendants of the Turkic-Mongol Khazar population of central Russia who converted to Judaism in the ninth century.

The Askenazi have no legitimate claim on Palestine at all.We might just as well argue that the 50m or so muslims who live in China are entitled to a state of their own in the Arabian peninsula!

Bandying round the historically meaningless “anti-semite” label is a bit like calling anyone who challenges the official Jewish “Holocaust” narrative a “denier”.

Both terms like the “conspiracy theorist” label are thinly disguised propaganda instruments designed to marginalize those who challenge official versions of history.

Oh FFS, not the dumb, ignorant canard about the Khazars again.

But what do you expect from a brainless antisemite who gets his ‘information’ from neo-nazi websites, who refers to the ‘so-called’ Jews, who thinks that there is a racial group called ‘semites’ and who thinks that there is an ethnicity called ‘Palestinians’.

What a loser.

The Mongol-Turkic origins of the Askenazi Jews may not fit well with the Talmudic claptrap you peddle re-the Jews being the Chosen People but it is more than a canard.

The Khazar theory has exercised writers and researchers,especially Jewish ones, for centuries.Koestler’s Thirteenth Tribe(1976),The Jews of Khazaria by Kevin Alan Brook(1999)and most recently Schlomo Sand’s book excited huge interest particularly in Israel.

Only someone who fears that the Zionist foundational myth might be exposed would dismiss the theory as “a dumb ignorant canard”.

LOL. Koestler was a novellist with nil training in ethnology.

Oh, and btw: his book came out ca. 80 years ago, you utter prat, not in 1976.

Sand, likewise, is an idiot with no training whatsoever in the field. His book is a tissue of inventions and lies. No wonder you like it.

Recent genetic research has demonstrated very clearly that Ashkenazi Jews are related closely to Yemenite, Iraqi and Moroccan Jews.

Over 50% of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent. Are they Europeans too, as antisemites like you would probably claim?

Or perhaps Yemenite Jews are also Khazars, Turks or whatever else your sick, ignorant, hate-fuelled so-called ‘mind’ would come up with?

PS. I never mentioned either the Talmud or anything about ‘chosen people’, you illiterate Neanderthal antisemitic loser.

“you illiterate Neanderthal antisemitic loser”

WTF is wrong with you? You’re ridiculously hot under the collar and wayyy out of line. You sound like you’re in a very bad way, healthwise. Otherwise you should be able to debate without resorting to ad hominem every two minutes.

When I debate with Nazi scum who tell me that my nation doesn’t exist, I’ll use any phrase I bloody well please.

“Way out of line”? Who the f*** DO you think you are, little man?

No disrespect to you, Craig, but I have recently become increasingly pissed off with the violently abusive tone of an increasing number of comments posted on your blog, which make civilised debate impossible. No need to name names – a glance through this thread is enough.

I am entirely with you about the need to champion free speech, and not to bar anyone because of their opinions, however obnoxious to others. But that is a separate issue from permitting guttersnipe lavatory language and filthy personal abuse of those from whom one differs.

Frankly, reading this stuff I sometimes feel that if these people were face to face in a pub bar they would be smashing glasses into each other’s faces, and it isn’t pleasant. In fact, it’s major reason why I won’t be posting here so often, if at all, in future.

If you want your blog to continue to perform the important and useful function that it undoubtedly does, please ask these people to take their hissy fits elsewhere.

Zionist propagandists like you are the syphillitic spots on the arsehole of humanity we can well do without.

Thirteenth Tribe was published in 1976 in the US by Random House and in London by Hutchinson in the same year you dingbat!

That’s less than thirty years ago.

Your Maths is as dumbed-down as your politics.

Koestler was something of a polymath.(No that doesn’t mean he was good at maths jerk-off!)His non-fiction included autobiography and biography as well as history,psychology,philosophy,and travel.He was far too erudite to have any appeal a retard like you.(No,airhead-erudite is not a glue!)

Like the work of Sand and Brook,Koestler’s work on the Khazarian ancestry of the Askenazi Jews has been taken seriously by most current researchers in the field.

The medieval documentary evidence cites Judaism as by far the most important religion-often the only religion- practised in the Khazar region.Hebrew script is noted in these sources as being the script of the tenth century Khazars.Khazarian and Hebraic imagery are often found on the same artefact.

The Kievan letter discovered in 1962 demonstrates both the authenticity of the Hebrew texts pertaining to Khazar Jews and the wide acceptance of Judaism across the whole Khazarian kingdom up to its furthest extent in Kiev.The Kozare district in the city attests to the Khazar migration there.

Skulls with Mongolian features were discovered in Serbia in 1972.Soviet archaelogists ascribed the presence at the site of Jewish artefacts like menorahs,shofars and etogs to Kabar tribes from Khazaria who had kept their Judaism in what was then Hungary.

Yugoslavian archaelogical sources found extensive Jewish religious artefacts at a similar burial site near Novi Sad excavated from 1972.

The current genetic consensus is that the existence of European (including Western Slavic)Khazarian ancestry among European Jews is beyond.

By the way Koestler also wrote a book which might interest you.In fact he probably named it after you.It’s called The Scum of the Earth written about eighty years ago in 1941!

That must be the book you meant,dickhead!

‘I just checked out angrisoba’s blog.

I reckon I’ll be spending more time here this year than there!

The guy is a gate-keeper.The knee-jerk resort to the term “conspiracy theorist” to describe anyone who questions official historical accounts of the “Holocaust”,the JFK assassination,9/11,Dr Kelly,7/7 is a clue to the way this guy is covering the backsides of the elites he pretends to critique.

The official accounts in all the above cases are indecently threadbare and ultimately unsustainable.

What angrisoba and gate-keepers like him can’t get their heads around is the fact that the majority of the public are now firmly in the “conspiracy” camp.Now it has become abundantly clear that elites have used the corporate media,official history and cover-ups to deceive us about their true agenda people are no longer willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Most people now understand that elites plan in secret,that their public pronouncements are mere window dressing.There is an increasing acknowledgement that we need to be vigilant about any semblance of democracy we might have left.

In other words we have to hold them to account all the time not just every five years.

angrisoba,and gate-keepers,like him use the term “conspiracy theorist” in the same way elites use it-to marginalize any questioning of official reality.

The fact that angrisoba refers pejoratively to the 9/11 “Troof” movement gives you some idea of the abject level of elite conditioning to which he’s succumbed.When someone can’t even spell the word “truth” it’s a sure sign that they have become a stranger to it.They have gone so far down the road of internalizing official histories as “facts” that these often transparent fallacies are now part of their cellular structure.

Notwithstanding postmodernist problematizations of the concept of truth the fact that it is the most desirable end to the path that human curiosity and enquiry might take remains.

My advice to all fans of Craig’s blog and the open forum it provides is to jealously guard it from would-be censors like angrisoba.

His blog will go the way of all the other cyphers for state disinformation should-in the bin or down the toilet!’

Excellent post. You have summed things up very well indeed.

‘Where your “logic” falls down is that some Holocaust deniers don’t necessarily truly believe a Holocaust didn’t happen but for propaganda purposes they want to convince others that the Nazis weren’t that bad.’

You have let slip there my old mucker. It hasn’t taken me too long donning my deerstalker hat to figure out what you and your cronies are about. Three attacking comments in 26 minutes? All a bit of a coincidence methinks! You and your deviant buddies Babs, Gords and Beary are obviously a secret BNP crew that are desperately throwing around ‘anti-semitic’ jibes, with no evidence whatsoever I might add, in a futile attempt to distract attention from yourselves you disgusting people. Well, you don’t fool me i’m afraid! Be off with you filthy swines. And as for Harwood, Duke, Faurisson and Irving – well – it sounds like you are flippantly mouthing off words while gazing at life size posters of your heros which adorn your bedroom walls. I rest my case. You have all been well and truely Punk’d. Don’t fret though. It’s ok…

Paranoia and panic again.

I recognise your far-right UKIP views and bigotry and you associate me with the BNP?

Whatever.

Typical punk ‘reasoning’.

‘angrysoab” is either an ignorant condescending fool, or a ignorant condescending facilitator.

I tend to believe he’s a facilitator’

A condescending fool seems more likely; in one of his earlier comments he praised Daniel Goldhagen and Raul Hilberg in the same sentance. Goldhagen is an overrated hack historian, Hilberg was a pioneering scholar. Only a fool would be unable to discern the difference between the two.

‘Paranoia and panic again.

I recognise your far-right UKIP views and bigotry and you associate me with the BNP?

Whatever.

Typical punk ‘reasoning’.’

Oh Babs, you are such a silly little thing some times. I strongly suggest you leave the BNP and stop acting up.

“Does angrysoba think that the Jews deserve to be free in their own country?”

Yes, of course I do. What are you interrogating ME for?

From the latest anti-semitic weirdo, Steelback: “Thirteenth Tribe was published in 1976 in the US by Random House and in London by Hutchinson in the same year you dingbat!

That’s less than thirty years ago.

Your Maths is as dumbed-down as your politics.”

1976 is less than thirty years ago?

“Koestler was something of a polymath.(No that doesn’t mean he was good at maths jerk-off!)His non-fiction included autobiography and biography as well as history,psychology,philosophy,and travel.He was far too erudite to have any appeal a retard like you.(No,airhead-erudite is not a glue!)”

If by polymath you mean am all-round crank on many subjects then you’re right. He wrote books on Lamarckian evolution and telepathy which appealed to proto-Troofers. People like you.

“The term “semite” more accurately describes the indigenous Palestinians than it does the so-called “Jews”.”

If you don’t like the term “anti-semite” (not many anti-semites do) we could always replace it with “Jew hater”.

Steelback and Jaded are Jew haters, there are no two ways about it. Someone asked either earlier on this thread or somewhere else if I could tell the difference between “anti-semitism” and “anti-zionism”. The answer is no. I see absolutely no difference from this rabble of Holocaust denying “anti-Zionists”.

Scratch the surface of the “Zionism is bullshit” crowd and it doesn’t take long for the whole putrid and rancid stench to come bubbling up.

“A condescending fool seems more likely; in one of his earlier comments he praised Daniel Goldhagen and Raul Hilberg in the same sentance. Goldhagen is an overrated hack historian, Hilberg was a pioneering scholar. Only a fool would be unable to discern the difference between the two.”

Who said I couldn’t tell the difference?

Goldhagen praises Hilberg. I praise both. So what’s your point?

‘The guy is a gate-keeper.The knee-jerk resort to the term “conspiracy theorist” to describe anyone who questions official historical accounts of the “Holocaust”,the JFK assassination,9/11,Dr Kelly,7/7 is a clue to the way this guy is covering the backsides of the elites he pretends to critique.’

As I said, your analysis was first class. However, I must air my view that calling this BNP weasel a ‘gatekeeper’ perhaps makes him sound a tad more important than the senior turdhole sentinel that he actualy is? These vermean specimens are invariably low in the intelligence stakes, as we have readily witnessed, and do not hold positions of any significance. If they did, they would not be left to spread their foul messages online during 12 hour sessions like the despicable dogsbodies that they truly are…

You are deterring potentially interesting debate with your constant nervously inadequate self-promotion.

I’d rather have a dialogue with people of different ideas who are mature enough to avoid annoying accusations, personal insults and name-calling.

Please tone down the belligerence and contribute more to the exchange of ideas, if you can.

According to Victor Ostrovsky there were 1000 sayanim in London in 1990.

There’s likely more now and a number of these cockroaches currently infect this site.

They’re pretty much the dumb dupes you would expect the Mossad to hire.

I bet you’ll get loads of their predictable “in defence of secular democracy” propaganda on the Danish cartoons thread too.

Don’t fall for it-it’s Mossad psy-ops and useful sayanim idiots like “Gordon Bennett” and other cryptoes.

Zionist propagandists like you are the syphillitic spots on the arsehole of humanity we can well do without.

“Zionist propagandists like you are the syphillitic spots on the arsehole of humanity we can well do without.”

Yup, the language of the Nazi in all its glory.

My apologies, angrysoba. I may have misunderstood something you wrote (I can’t find that particular post now). Or maybe you were quoting someone else – sometimes the lack of html here makes it difficult to see.

“My apologies, angrysoba. I may have misunderstood something you wrote (I can’t find that particular post now). Or maybe you were quoting someone else – sometimes the lack of html here makes it difficult to see.”

I don’t know. I am confused about what you could possibly have meant. I almost never refer to “Zionism” or Israel in any way because I have very few opinions on it. The only opinions I have been gaining on the issue is that “We’re not anti-semitic, we’re anti-Zionist” is becoming an ever more familiar bleat from people who then go on to say “Ever heard about Koestler’s theories?” or “Why can’t we deny the Holocaust?” and other bullshit.

There are no posts on my blog about Israel, as far as I know, except those which laugh at idiot Troofers who conclude I must be a Mossad agent.

In terms of Israel as a safe haven for Jews I am completely in favour. I have a friend who once taught TEFL to a Mexican woman who was sadistically and brutally murdered by radical Islamists (the idiots on this forum would probably believe it was a false flag attack).

Why was this Jewish woman killed? What was her crime?

There is only one answer and it is an answer that people such as Craig Murray scrupulously avoid and an answer that many commenters here deny at best and cheer at worst.

“sometimes the lack of html here makes it difficult to see”

It’s the red mist, Gordon.

“According to Victor Ostrovsky there were 1000 sayanim in London in 1990.

There’s likely more now and a number of these cockroaches currently infect this site.

They’re pretty much the dumb dupes you would expect the Mossad to hire.”

Beyond parody!

Hello everyone and happy new year. I had half forgotten about this site and stumbled across it through another link, but oh dear, I must say the level of debate seems to have gone downhill judging by the above. Not surprising given the type of people it seems to attract: troofers, anti-Semites and community care cases (“waxed-fleshed out patients”) all feasting off Craig’s liberal approach to free speech. But Anticant’s comment about these people meeting in a bar and duffing each other up is probably wrong – they would more likely be terribly polite to each other. That’s the power of the interweb for you and the disinhibition it creates among small minded people. It’s a problem all over the web. Much better to go out and talk to real people.

Well, HELLO again Eddie!

How did you happen to land up on *this* thread?

I’m a real person, btw, but you know that, and where I am and all.

Hello Dreoilin and I hope Ireland is well (the economy is in a right old mess fom what I hear) – I saw Craig mentioned on Harry’s Place and came on over to have a look. The comments from angrysoab seemed to chime with my views so I had a read of this thread in particular. The old regulars seem to be here and a few new people by the look of it, not all of them benign. I have made a new year’s resolution to be polite and optimistic so any baiting will not work! For now.

“The comments from angrysoab seemed to chime with my views so I had a read of this thread in particular.”

Well, it was the weirdo Jew-haters here that christened me “angrysoab” (S.O.A.B = son of a bitch, apparently).

I’m angrysoba.

no, you’re a facilitator from japan, who acts like a child on someone elses site, then goes on to write up naughty things about the owner of said site.

you’re an ignorant fool, according to the consensus in this comment thread, so go buzz off, angrysoab.

I think angrysoba could be interesting if the multi-nick attacks held off long enough for him to be able to express himself.

Eddie,

Ireland is surviving – despite bringing in a mad law against blasphemy on New Year’s Day, and loss of jobs and pay cuts/freezes bothering everyone except bankers.

“so any baiting will not work! For now.”

I don’t bait. You know that. I just hold up my own end.

“no, you’re a facilitator from japan, who acts like a child on someone elses site, then goes on to write up naughty things about the owner of said site.

you’re an ignorant fool, according to the consensus in this comment thread, so go buzz off, angrysoab.”

You’re tedious. You pretend to be some kind of original thinker with your declarations about who was behind this and that terrorist attack and yet all you do is repeat the same old drivel being spouted by thousands of other tinfoil hatted fantasy dissidents.

You have nothing new to say but repeat the same old factoids about flight manifests, sharply-dressed men, “Zionism” and “usury” and get bent out of shape when I demonstrate that you are not only wrong but an anti-semite (actually it was you who first called yourself one pre-emptively when you knew what you were saying was anti-semitic).

So you resort to the tried and tested fall-back of saying I’m a “black-ops shill”, a moron, a paid agent for Mossad and the usual entirely predictable nonsense in the fervent hope that anyone in Mossad or the CIA actually cares one iota about your worthless existence. The only person who came up with anything original was the person who called me “angrysoab” but with the level of wit and charm on display here I can only assume it was a serendipitous typo. Since then it has been chorused repeatedly by the same idiots who want me… get this… banned because I’m interfering with your freedom of speech! I don’t think I should take the “consensus view” of such a rabble of conspiracy theorizing anti-semitic loons particularly seriously, do you?

You are deterring potentially interesting debate with your constant nervously inadequate self-promotion.

‘I’d rather have a dialogue with people of different ideas who are mature enough to avoid annoying accusations, personal insults and name-calling.

Please tone down the belligerence and contribute more to the exchange of ideas, if you can.’

Babs, I didn’t ask for shills to show up here. I can only work with what i’m given i’m afraid.

Gordon Bennet:

‘Yup, the language of the Nazi in all its glory.’

Yes, right out of your filthy BNP mouth.

Angrysoba:

‘Beyond parody!’

It certainly is!

Eddie:

‘Hello everyone and happy new year. I had half forgotten about this site and stumbled across it through another link, but oh dear, I must say the level of debate seems to have gone downhill judging by the above. Not surprising given the type of people it seems to attract: troofers, anti-Semites and community care cases (“waxed-fleshed out patients”) all feasting off Craig’s liberal approach to free speech. But Anticant’s comment about these people meeting in a bar and duffing each other up is probably wrong – they would more likely be terribly polite to each other. That’s the power of the interweb for you and the disinhibition it creates among small minded people. It’s a problem all over the web. Much better to go out and talk to real people.’

Sure thing you BNP cockroach.

Angrysoab:

‘I’m a “black-ops shill”, a moron, a paid agent.’

Indeed, you ARE certainly all three of those things.

eddie: good to hear from you, happy new year to you too. The level of debate on this thread is indeed woeful – full of people with nothing of interest to say but saying at great length. Angry sure, but sober, I fear not.

“The level of debate on this thread is indeed woeful – full of people with nothing of interest to say but saying at great length. Angry sure, but sober, I fear not.”

You should see what was posted on my blog:

“”troof” or not, the likes of you are on the losing side, and the “troof” is liberating people.

However, your condescension upon us all (apparently you ought to have a gcse with an ology of some sorts appended to), as reflected in the copious verbiage to boot, the length of which does not somehow take accounts of the developing craks in the exploding pants episode of the keystone terror merry go around.

Start reading instead of pontificating you may even find “troof” a lot closer to reality than the “reality” brand you are peddling.

PS perception of terror, has been the back bone of the Western governance for the duration of the last decade without the aid of which the ideologically baron and morally bankrupt political apparatus of neo liberal/conservative construct; might as well had been holding court in the relevant dock-house on the relevant pond.”

I can’t tell if that is meant to mean anything at all or whether it’s a parody of a Troofer.

angrysoab:

no one gives a flying rats ass about your anonymous blogger site.

you ooze despair, and your comments on this thread shows it. you apparently must have a last word, so feel free to reply with more “9/11 twoooooofers hate jooooos” comments…

‘angrysoab:

no one gives a flying rats ass about your anonymous blogger site.

you ooze despair, and your comments on this thread shows it. you apparently must have a last word, so feel free to reply with more “9/11 twoooooofers hate jooooos” comments…’

Give hime some credit. He called one thing right:

angrysoab:

‘Feasting off Craig’s liberal approach to free speech.’

A self-description that is 100% correct. Great observaion from the BNP Nazi site resident Angrysoba. Bravo, bravo my son…

jaded and ,

you do not seem have any shadow of doubt about these assertions you are making.

But is that any excuse for your panic attacks?

Let people engage and exchange opinions freely without this belligerence.

What are you afraid of?

Jaded: “Give hime some credit. He called one thing right:

angrysoab:

‘Feasting off Craig’s liberal approach to free speech.’”

I didn’t even write that.

“angrysoab:

no one gives a flying rats ass about your anonymous blogger site.

you ooze despair, and your comments on this thread shows it. you apparently must have a last word, so feel free to reply with more “9/11 twoooooofers hate jooooos” comments…”

What’s the name of this thread?

All you Israel brown-nosers who haven’t worked out the malign agenda of the masonic state and its involvement in 9/11 should do some research here:

http://jewishcriminalnetworkdid911.blogspot.com/

Wake up you dumb goyim!

Angrysoba- thanks for admitting that Goldhagen’s ‘Willing Executioners’ is ‘flawed’.

I’m all the more perplexed, therefore, about why you recommended him to Hawley jnr in one of your early comments. Perhaps you’re neither a fool or a facilitator, just a provocateur !

As well as blowing hot and cold about Goldhagen, you appear to do the same about Koestler; in one post you call him erudite, but in another, you dismiss his thesis about the Khazar origins of Ashkenazi jewry as ‘bullshit’. Koestler’s stuff about the paranormal was certainly bullshit, but ‘The Thirteenth Tribe’ wasn’t, and more reputable scholars than him reckon that the historical and genetic evidence makes the Khazar case, at the minimum, a defensible one.

In another one of your posts you give the great Theodore Dalrymple some deserved praise- at least 1 can agree with you 100% on that one.

“Angrysoba- thanks for admitting that Goldhagen’s ‘Willing Executioners’ is ‘flawed’.”

Well, I don’t feel like it is an “admission” I would have willingly agreed to that from the beginning.

You may have missed out why I mentioned him in the first place. I was responding to a few posters here who were whining and moaning about the Holocaust is set in stone because debate is not allowed.

I said this isn’t true. There is plenty that is debated and then asked:

“The Holocaust is open to scrutiny, you fool! There are all kinds of different interpretations of it. For example, which side, MS, do you fall on the Christopher Browning-Daniel Jonah Goldhagen debate, I wonder?”

I pointed out that just about the only thing criminalized in some countries is outright denial – usually denying that there were gas chambers, or vastly lowering the numbers or that it was intentional – and that I don’t approve of criminalizing Holocaust denial. I was still set upon by numerous weirdos and cranks who placed the word Holocaust in inverted commas or had what they thought were devastating questions which really only revealed their own ignorance, including Hawley Jr who seemed to suggest that those involved in the Holocaust wouldn’t have realized the rising increments of their own behaviour until they were completely complicit. I suggested then…

“Hawley Jr.

Maybe you should read a few of those I have mentioned earlier. Browning, Goldhagen…perhaps Hilberg or others.”

…especially given that Glenn had linked to Rense.com – which is a Holocaust denial site among other loony conspiracies. I am sure you would agree even Goldhagen is preferable to Rense.

On Koestler, I didn’t call him erudite – that was Steelback – another budding fascist who I was quoting. Of course Darkness At Noon was a great book but the Thirteenth Tribe is considered about as useful as scholarship as Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

In fact Theodore Dalrymple is also dismissive of the Thirteenth Tribe in his otherwise complimentary essay on Koestler:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_2_oh_to_be.html

@angrysoba: ‘…including Hawley Jr who seemed to suggest that those involved in the Holocaust wouldn’t have realized the rising increments of their own behaviour until they were completely complicit. I suggested then…

“Hawley Jr.

Maybe you should read a few of those I have mentioned earlier. Browning, Goldhagen…perhaps Hilberg or others.”‘

Seemed to suggest? I was not speaking of the Holocaust, nor have I done so in any comment.

I was commenting on Larry from St Louis’ remark:

“If I thought that I were living in Hitlers’s Germany, I would be resisting every day. I would be ethically compelled to blow up train tracks and destroy government buildings, and perhaps do even worse. At a minimum, I would exploit today’s free speech rights to protest every single day.”

I commented:

‘Do you think you would notice?

“To live in the process is absolutely not to notice it – please try to believe me – unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop.

Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted.’… Believe me this is true. Each act, each occasion is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow… Suddenly it all comes down, all at once… You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.”

German professor describing the arrival of Nazism in Europe to American journalist Milton Mayer.’

You responded to that with:

‘Breaking in the shops of Jews or stripping them naked and shooting them in the back of the head may seem like “increments” to you but if that is the case then maybe you should be more on the lookout. After all, if those aren’t increments, maybe ranting about “usury” or “Zionism” or “global banking” is where it starts.’

Please note, I have not posted any comments, or otherwise ranted, about “usury” or “Zionism” or “global banking”. But I understand the motivation of those who do post such comments. Perhaps if you were not so obsessive you might understand more and be less inclined to twist meanings to suit your purpose.

Angrysoba writes- ‘Of course Darkness At Noon was a great book but the Thirteenth Tribe is considered about as useful as scholarship as Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

In fact Theodore Dalrymple is also dismissive of the Thirteenth Tribe in his otherwise complimentary essay on Koestler:’

I have Dalrymple’s City Journal article. You are clearly dismissive of the Thirteenth Tribe, but Dalrymple (in a brief passing reference to it)is silent on the merits of the work itself; he merely observes that it is a work ‘still cited by anti-Zionists’. That is a plain, neutral statement of fact, and not the value judgement on the book’s merits that you would like it to be.

Hawley Jr. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you, but I also still think you are making a mistake to confuse the US (even under the Bush administration) with the Nazis. It was pretty clear what the Nazis were about from even before they were elected. Hitler implemented the policies he ran on as spelt out in Mein Kampf and there were some genuine protests that were successful – for a short time. But many of those who knew what was in store for them if they stayed, left the country during the 30s.

“I have Dalrymple’s City Journal article. You are clearly dismissive of the Thirteenth Tribe, but Dalrymple (in a brief passing reference to it)is silent on the merits of the work itself; he merely observes that it is a work ‘still cited by anti-Zionists’. That is a plain, neutral statement of fact, and not the value judgement on the book’s merits that you would like it to be.”

Ha ha! I don’t think it’s a ringing endorsement to say that it is cited as propaganda. In fact saying that it is cited as propaganda and nothing more about the book sounds like he’s dismissing it.

Anyway, I’m looking around to see which respectable writers acutally endorse his central thesis and one of the first pages I come across is by non-other than Eric Hufschmid, the virulently anti-semitic 9/11 Truther. Okay, lets read some reviews at Amazon. Oh look! If you buy this book you could buy it for a bargain price with “Synagogues of Satan” and Martin Luther’s “The Jews and Their Lies”.

Well, I think that tells us plenty about the target audience.

@angrysoba :”Hawley Jr. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you, but I also still think you are making a mistake to confuse the US (even under the Bush administration) with the Nazis. It was pretty clear what the Nazis were about from even before they were elected. Hitler implemented the policies he ran on as spelt out in Mein Kampf and there were some genuine protests that were successful – for a short time. But many of those who knew what was in store for them if they stayed, left the country during the 30s.”

For fuck’s sake! You’re still attributing to me words that I did not write. And now you have the conceit to suggest you would have done better than the German professor I quoted and the majority of the German people – you, an apologist for the atrocities and greed of today’s power-grubbers.

Correction to my previous comment to you -

I said I had not posted any comments, or otherwise ranted, about “usury” or “Zionism” or “global banking”.’

That’s not correct. I recall that some months back I posted a comment with a link to the video, ‘The Money Masters – How International Bankers Gained Control of America’. If you have the time to watch the video (it’s three-and-a-half hours long), I’d be interested to know whether you think it conspiracy theory or conspiracy fact.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=kHtDS9uvNsyP-Aby8t3eBQ

“And now you have the conceit to suggest you would have done better than the German professor I quoted and the majority of the German people”

I am still not entirely sure what your point is.

Are you or are you not making a moral equivalence between the US of today and Nazi Germany from 1933 onwards?

Would I have “done better” than the German professor you quoted? I don’t know because the quote is somewhat decontextualised. I don’t know if the professor is talking about soon after the Nazi takeover during which the Nazis merely called for a boycott of Jewish industries or from 1935 when the Nuremburg laws called for a boycott of Jewish academics and had professors stripped of their titles or refused positions in universities.

Do I think I would have noticed?

Hmmm…Do you think if they had asked, say, Victor Klemperer whether he noticed when he lost his university job he would say that it was all too gradual to know?

Well, maybe Klemperer did hope things would get better even as they got progressively worse.

But ask yourself this, is there anything like that happening now? Whose shops are being targetted and their windows smashed in? Whose shops is a rabble-rousing demagogue urging to have shut down? Whose academics are being boycotted by universities?

Do you notice?

angrysoba,

I think, perhaps, you’ve agreed the point the German professor was making, by saying, “Well, maybe Klemperer did hope things would get better even as they got progressively worse.”

As far as I can tell, in the quoted statement the professor was discussing the general aspects of Nazism in Germany. You brought the subject specifically to the treatment of Jews and to the Holocaust.

The way the Jews were treated, and the manner in which it came about, appals, shocks and frightens me. It also makes me awake to the techniques used to demonise a people and thus to make it acceptable to murder them in large numbers. And, yes, in answer to your question, I do notice there is something like that happening now.

‘Well, I think that tells us plenty about the target audience’.

Angrysoba- I notice that the focus of your attention has shifted from the intrinsic merits of ‘The Thirteenth Tribe’ to the demerits of what you call its ‘target audience’. Nice try, but that simply won’t do. Have you actually read the book, or have you just been programmed to anathemise it at the drop of a hat ?

My ancient paperback version of the book includes the following appendix by Koestler,from which I quote below-

‘While this book deals with past history, it unavoidably carries certain implications…I am aware of the danger that it may be maliciously interpreted as a denial of the State of Israel’s right to exist. But that right is not based on the hypothetical origins of the Jewish people…Whatever the Israeli citizens racial origins, and whatever illusions they entertain about them, their state exists de jure and de facto, and cannot be undone except by genocide… The Jews who inhabit it, regardless of their chequered origins, possess the essential requirements of a nation: a country of their own, a common language, government and army. The Jews of the diaspora have none of these requirements of nationhood. What sets them apart as a special category from the gentiles amidst whom they live is their declared religion, whether they practice it or not. Here lies the basic difference between Israelis and Jews of the diaspora.’

I concur 100% with the views expressed here by Koestler . With which of these statements do you disagree ? And again, have you actually read the book ?

I think we should be told, particularly as you are so insistent in on comparing The Thirteenth Tribe with tosh such as Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

Barbara:

‘Let people engage and exchange opinions freely without this belligerence.’

Babs, Craig’s blog has been under sustained attack and you call ‘me’ belligerent? Ha, ha, ha. Good one you daft wally… ;-0

Mark, I haven’t read the book. I have only read about it and I have only made observations about those who claim it is worth anything.

From my observations I can see that no serious scientist or historian appears to give it much credence (even Tony Judt who, almost alone, praises Shlomo Sand calls the Thirteenth Tribe as “bizarre, misguided attempt to demonstrate the Ashkenazi’s descendence from the Khazars”)

I also think that its target audience, at least by those who currently sell the book, are those interested in psuedohistory or pseudoscience and that it is not irrelevant who reads it today.

Many people thought that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was real. Even the Times of London once speculated that it was real. Now, all but a few purchasers of “Synagogues of Satan”, “The Jews and Their Lies” and, well… “The Thirteenth Tribe” think there is any credence to this hoax document. I haven’t read that either. Have you?

The point being we must have a criteria for what is worth reading without always having to read something first and to sometimes trust those who are more experienced about these things. (Dalrymple says this in an essay too, specifically about the Protocols).

Angrysoba- no I haven’t read ‘Synagogues of Satan’ or ‘The Jews and Their Lies’, as an elementary smell test is enough to put me off such malevolent rubbish. ‘The Thirteenth Tribe’ isn’t malevolent rubbish, and although some of it’s conclusions are dated in the light of some recent studies, it was well received on publication in 1976 by, inter alia, George Steiner. It was actually one of the last of Koestler’s works to garner some favourable reviews- and not just from rabid anti-semites, as you seem to believe.

“‘The Thirteenth Tribe’ isn’t malevolent rubbish, and although some of it’s conclusions are dated in the light of some recent studies, it was well received on publication in 1976 by, inter alia, George Steiner.”

Sure. I know that Koestler was well-meaning and I am sure that it came across as an intriguing thesis to some at the time. But, as you said, its main thesis has been pretty much debunked and no genuine scholars see it as having much value.

So, what value does it have these days? Well, it may be well-written and it may have some extraneously interesting history, I don’t know. But going to Amazon.com and finding it sold combined with the malevolent rubbish means that an elementary smell test puts me off it.

Again, I am not impugning Koestler’s motives and I think he’s a good novelist but his ventures into other fields were almost invariably cranky, the Thirteenth Tribe looks, in retrospect to be early in that descent into crankiness (although a case could be made for saying he’d always been attracted to “the big idea” that explained it all.)

Anyway, just to be clear. I am not accusing you or Koestler of anti-semitism or of him writing “malevolent rubbish”.

It could be said I am playing a double standard with Koestler and Goldhagen here, but I am not. The discussion on Koestler was about his central thesis which I think has been discredited, whereas my recommendations of Goldhagen have been to do with the subject matter of the Holocaust itself rather than his central thesis but also to point out that debates and revisions occur within the standard scholarly Holocaust literature.

I’ve looked back through our exchange here and I THINK I have been civil to you throughout. There are some I haven’t been civil with but then I think the reasons are clear enough.

So, no hard feelings I hope.

‘So, no hard feelings I hope.’

Angrysoba-the sentiment is reciprocated at my end

Angrysoba, you say that Arthur Koestler’s central theisis (about the genetic/racial origins of the Askenazim) has been discredited. Please explain in your own words what that thesis is and why it is discredited.

Also, please stop using expletives and being borish when posting on other people’s sites. If you don’t lick this sort of filthy habit, it becomes your character, and then somebody is going to smack you in the face again just like that Christian fundamentalist did a while back in Osaka, and once again you won’t know why they did it.

Angrysoba: “For example, I don’t think Ernst Zundel should be in jail for denying the Holocaust but I think he’s a nasty piece of work as pretty much anyone who denies the Holocaust is. I think it’s deplorable to call him “Europe’s No.1 Political Prisoner”.”

Have you ever met Ernst personally? Have you given his opinions and claims about the Holocaust your serious consideration? On what basis do you consider him “a nasty piece of work”?

Also, who do you consider to be Europe’s No.1 Political Prisoner, given that they don’t lock people up for selling apples by the pound anymore?

“Have you ever met Ernst personally? Have you given his opinions and claims about the Holocaust your serious consideration? On what basis do you consider him “a nasty piece of work”?”

I don’t have to have met Ernst Zundel to know that he’s a nasty piece of work. He’s a neo-Nazi who dresses in concentration camp uniforms during his free-speech demos.

You might find that perfectly acceptable, maybe even comic, but I think it’s nasty at the very least.

Oh, and I’ve never met Charles Manson either. Does that mean I can’t say he’s not a nasty piece of work?

“Also, please stop using expletives and being borish when posting on other people’s sites. ”

Who made you the referee? And why do you single me out? There are plenty of people using expletives here and plenty using them at me. Craig Murray appears to be fine with that and has said I am welcome (and not just tolerated) to post here despite any number of commenters calling for my comments to be deleted and for me to be banned.

“If you don’t lick this sort of filthy habit, it becomes your character, and then somebody is going to smack you in the face again just like that Christian fundamentalist did a while back in Osaka, and once again you won’t know why they did it.”

Always sticking up for thugs, congratulations. You don’t know what happened in that incident so stop making threats. And stop acting like you own the place.

“Angrysoba, you say that Arthur Koestler’s central theisis (about the genetic/racial origins of the Askenazim) has been discredited. Please explain in your own words what that thesis is and why it is discredited.”

That the Ashkenazim descended from the Khazars, as you said. It is discredited on the basis of lack of evidence.

Angrysoba:

“let’s debate it. Did the Holocaust really happen?”

I make it a general rule not to debate that question. But in your case I’ll make an exception. My short answer is, yes, the Holocaust really did happen.

Do you agree?

Angrysoba,

“The only kind of “debate” that the use of the term “denier” rules out when studying the Holocaust is whether it happened or not.”

In principle perhaps, but not in practice. One only has to ask questions about how many victims there were, whether they were made into soap, whether there were gas chambers at this or that particular camp, whether Hitler knew, or whether Ellie Wiesel fabricated his recollections, to be labeled as a “holocaust denier”, which can loose you your job in Britain and your liberty in Germany.

“I make it a general rule not to debate that question. But in your case I’ll make an exception. My short answer is, yes, the Holocaust really did happen.

Do you agree?”

Of course.

“In principle perhaps, but not in practice. One only has to ask questions about how many victims there were, whether they were made into soap, whether there were gas chambers at this or that particular camp, whether Hitler knew, or whether Ellie Wiesel fabricated his recollections, to be labeled as a “holocaust denier”"

And by Holocaust I am talking about an intentional system of genocide aimed at a number of groups in which somewhere between 5 and 6 million Jews were killed and in which the gas chambers were used.

And the idea that soap was made of the victims has been discredited. At least on any mass scale.

“I don’t have to have met Ernst Zundel to know that he’s a nasty piece of work. He’s a neo-Nazi who dresses in concentration camp uniforms during his free-speech demos.”

In what sense is he a neo-Nazi? Please tell us about his political philosophy if you are privy to it.

What’s wrong with dressing in a concentration camp uniform as part of a demo? Hollywood actors do it all the time. Would you prefer he dressed like a Stormtrooper a-la Prince Henry?

“Oh, and I’ve never met Charles Manson either. Does that mean I can’t say he’s not a nasty piece of work?”

You can say what you like. It’s your reputation on the line. I was just inquiring into whether you had any reasonable grounds for your opinion, but it seems from your answer that it’s based more on black propaganda accounts and an over-productive spleen than on anything Mr. Zundel has written or done.

“Who made you the referee? And why do you single me out? There are plenty of people using expletives here and plenty using them at me.”

I volunteered. And I single you out because most of the other offenders here are beyond hope of salvation. It’s a sign of serious moral failings when a young lad’s excuse for bad behaviour is that other people are doing it too. Grow a spine and stop whinging.

“Always sticking up for thugs, congratulations. You don’t know what happened in that incident so stop making threats. And stop acting like you own the place.”

I’m interpreting the incident because I know you. In all my decades of disagreeing with Bible bashers, none has ever bashed me – and that includes a US marine I had a passionate disagreement with about how to interpret Genesis while on flying from Narita to Anchorage.

And I wasn’t threatening you, just observing that you have an edge on your tongue that is bound to provoke people, unnecessarily in my view. If you could could give your opinion about the ideas you are ostensibly arguing for or against without attacking the character of people you disagree with… Oh well, perhaps you’ll learn when somebody challenges you to a jewel with battle axes and spikey balls.

“That the Ashkenazim descended from the Khazars, as you said. It is discredited on the basis of lack of evidence.”

Hon maa kaa naa! as they used to say in Kansai.

I think you’ll find the origins of the Ashkenazim is still very much a vexed question. Undoubtedly there is some Israelite blood in them and some Khazar blood and some other blood too including good Christian blood too, but what inquiring population geneticists want to know is what’s nature of the mix.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

“And by Holocaust I am talking about an intentional system of genocide aimed at a number of groups in which somewhere between 5 and 6 million Jews were killed and in which the gas chambers were used.”

Well, the devil is in the details, they say. Systems of genocide are like snowflakes. Every one of them is different.

“And the idea that soap was made of the victims has been discredited. At least on any mass scale.”

And if you’d said that back in the eighties, we’d have had you marked down as a “Holocaust denier”.

“Oh well, perhaps you’ll learn when somebody challenges you to a jewel with battle axes and spikey balls.”

Excuse the spelling. Looking at it now I see it as a Freudian avalanche.

“In what sense is he a neo-Nazi? Please tell us about his political philosophy if you are privy to it.”

Don’t be foolish. He wrote a book called The Hitler We Love and Why explaining his love of the Fuhrer. He’s a white supremacist and ran Samisdat Publishing which primarily printed Nazi promotional material and Holcaust denial material. I fail to see how calling him a neo-Nazi discredits him.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-We-Loved-Why/dp/1593640234

And before you ask “Christof Friedrich” are Ernst Zundel’s middle names. It’s a pseudonym of sorts.

The picture of him grinning like an imbecile wearing a concentration camp uniform is available to see in Michael Shermer’s Denying History on page 65 apparently given by Zundel himself so it’s not “black propaganda”.

Oh, and the attempt at equivalance with Prince Harry is silly on a number of levels which I can’t even be bothered to go into.

“Grow a spine and stop whinging.”

What are you talking about? You’re the one bleating about how my words aren’t very nice and I’m being mean to poor old misunderstood Ernst Zundel.

If the language is a bit too saucy then I suggest you find a something a little more wholesome to read than the ventings of my spleen. As for what it does to my character, better out than in I say.

“I’m interpreting the incident because I know you. In all my decades of disagreeing with Bible bashers, none has ever bashed me – and that includes a US marine I had a passionate disagreement with about how to interpret Genesis while on flying from Narita to Anchorage.”

Well, good. But it only shows that you don’t know the incident in question. It happened when I was talking to a young lady. Her husband approached me from behind and slugged me in the face. He was actually quite intoxicated at the time and he himself is a bit confused about why it happened. I assumed it was because of what we were having a conversation about but that might not have been the case. Anyway, his wife didn’t speak to HIM for a week and many of his friends were angered by his behaviour. He later apologized to me in no uncertain terms and I forgave him (an ironically Christian thing to do). No one has ever talked of the incident since then and all of us have put it behind us except you who wasn’t even there to witness it and have brought up this incident more than once now in a bizarre attempt to shame me, it seems.

“And if you’d said that back in the eighties, we’d have had you marked down as a “Holocaust denier”.”

What? When was Raul Hilberg ever referred to as a Holocaust denier (except by the deniers themselves who often try to attempt to make equivalences between their positions and those historians who genuinely revise aspects of the Holocaust as new evidence comes to light)?

“Don’t be foolish. He wrote a book called The Hitler We Love and Why explaining his love of the Fuhrer.”

Don’t be churlish. I’m only askin’. So, what were his reasons for loving the Fuhrer?

“He’s a white supremacist.”

It’s a charge that’s often made, but usually by people who who are supremicists of one kind or another themselves. The number of times I sat in a pub in my early days in Japan, many moons ago, full of white English teachers and suit and tie johns boozing and rantning about how the Jap’s were barely human because they do everything different to the way we do, how the chicks were yellow cabs and the dicks were dickheads. And I’ve battled white supremicist thugs on the London Underground and been beaten up by white supremicists at a Chinese Takeaway in Bethnal Green Road in my time. So I know ‘em when I see ‘em. What’s Zundel done to qualify? Don’t tell me he’s tried to justify the genocide of the Native Americans in print as our friend Christopher Hitchens has.

“I fail to see how calling him a neo-Nazi discredits him.”

He may be a paleo-Nazi. They really hate the neos.

“Michael Shermer’s Denying History”

Yes he is. That’s the most sensible four words you’ve typed all day. Zundel’s fancy dress party was not the “black propaganda” I was referring to. I was thinking more of the sort of thing the UK gutter press has been doing to Craig Murray. Now if you believe half of what they wrote you have no business being within a million gigabytes of this den of iniquity. But of course, nobody does.

“Oh, and the attempt at equivalance with Prince Harry is silly on a number of levels which I can’t even be bothered to go into.”

Oh, that’s really wounded my pride now. I’m going to have to put my fist through the monitor and chew on my mouse for a bit.

“You’re the one bleating”

No, you’re the sheeple, remember?

“No one has ever talked of the incident since then and all of us have put it behind us except you who wasn’t even there to witness it and have brought up this incident more than once now in a bizarre attempt to shame me, it seems.”

That’s not the way I remember you telling it before. But I’ll defer to your latest eye witness account and retract the suggestion that you in any way provoked the assault. But next time, treat every American as a “live” American, as in “liable to explode suddenly at any time.”

“What?”

Once more with a feeling, people who were skeptical of the lampshade story in the 1980s or before were commonly referred to as “holocaust deniers” by people in Shoah-biz. Of course, not many people were skeptical back then. Most people including myself lapped up every NAZI attrocity story and Holocaust fable that the media fed us with, without bothering to check whether or not it was kosher. I still believe in my heart of hearts every Holocaust horror story I heard from the media as a child, even though many have latter turned out to be fabrications, just as I believe the Bible stories I learned that I now know are not literally true. The difference is nobody gets put in jail or spat on by true believers these days for questioning the factuality of Book of Judges or the Gospel according to Luke.

“He wrote a book called The Hitler We Love and Why explaining his love of the Fuhrer.”

I googled this and found that the title is “The Hitler We Loved and Why” (past tense) and that apparently Zundel didn’t write it. But he supplied the pictures, appears under a pseudnym as a joint author, and was the publisher. The text was by Eric Thompson.

Have you read the book and would you recommend it? The Amazon ratings were split evenly between 5s and 1s.

Wow! You do seem to be taking this personally.

Ernst Zundel couldn’t possibly wear his political colours on his sleeve more explicitly if they were sat next to a swastika.

If you can Google “The Hitler we Loved and Why?” you can see exactly what he thinks about the Fuhrer and race-mixing and the White Race in online extracts. Why you would even have any uncertainty before reading it is completely beyond me. If that isn’t “neo-Nazi” then the term has no meaning at all.

You should probably also avoid bars where people use terms like “Jap” and “yellow cab” (hint: they’re racist eptithets, y’know?)

As for your “treat every American as a “live” American, as in “liable to explode suddenly at any time.”" comment I assume you are talking about the guy who hit me. Only trouble with that is that the guy was Samoan, not American (and not American Samoan, either).

“Wow! You do seem to be taking this personally.”

Not at all. I’m just responding with mild irritation to your own highly emotive and visceral comment style. I fail to see why you should tie your intestines in knots because someone writes that he loved Hitler. Millions of people loved Hitler once, by the way. He was almost as popular as John Lennon. Do you get into the same sort of huff over people who write that they loved Stalin, Mao or Churchill?

“If you can Google “The Hitler we Loved and Why?” you can see exactly what he thinks about the Fuhrer and race-mixing and the White Race in online extracts. Why you would even have any uncertainty before reading it is completely beyond me. If that isn’t “neo-Nazi” then the term has no meaning at all.”

As I indicated earlier, it sounds more paleo-Nazi than neo. You know, the sort of thing that made Adolf Hitler TIME Magazine’s Man of the Year in 1938, much to Mussolini’s chagrin.

“You should probably also avoid bars where people use terms like “Jap” and “yellow cab” (hint: they’re racist eptithets, y’know?)”

I bore that advice in mind years ago and never go near them. The most notorious such bar in Japan was The Rising Sun in Tokyo, where rugby-playing British expa financial wonderboys used to hang out. They scared the willies out of me, I can tell you! And almost every man jack of them more of a white supremicist than Mr. Zundel appears to be.

“Only trouble with that is that the guy was Samoan, not American (and not American Samoan, either).”

Oh, well in that case you should have reported it as a racially-motivated attack. When you related the incident to me originally, I only remember you saying you were hit by a Christian fundamentalists. You didn’t mention his nationality or ethnicity. You should be careful around Pacific Islanders in general, by the way. Do you realize how many missionaries went in the pot before they were finally converted to Christianity. And now Richard Dawkins wants to convert away from it. Madness, sheer madness.

If you’re so concerned about people raising objections to race-mixing, Mr. Soba, then you’ll doubtless be aware that one country where such people have power is Israel. Have you any particular feelings or comments on Israeli law and policy concerning intermarriage, or are you going to settle for selective outrage against Ernst Zundel?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1111929.html

For instance, how would you take it if the Japanese PM’s Office and the “Japanese Agency” undertook an aggressive ad campaign to discourage Japanese from marrying foreigners by sticking up notices on walls accross the company likening Japanese with foreign significant others as “missing persons”?

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090907/FOREIGN/709069840/1042

How would you feel if the Japanese government launched a television and internet advertising campaign urging people to inform on Japanese friends and relatives abroad who may be in danger of marrying non-Japanese?

You’ve got a good brain. You’ve studied philosophy. You have a good think about why Zundel’s personal views on inrtmarriage are so offensive to you and the Israeli government policy and general social attitudes to it are not, OK?

My points about Zundel were in response to your quizzing me about referring to him as a neo-Nazi. Apart from pointing out a typo of mine and quibbling about paleo-s and neo-s I think I’ve demonstrated perfectly well that my characterisation of him is correct and my points about race-mixing were to justify my comments that I made about him being a white supremacist despite your constant, and really quite tedious, attempts at innuendo and equivalences and demands that I must never pronounce on any issue unless I simultaneously say something about, hmmm…which country today…ah! How ’bout Israel, for a change!

It’s really very, very boring.

My questions statements and conjectures were all in direct response to your questions and statements. You’ve neglected to give straight answers to a fairly long list of my questions, which grew out of your own comments Possibly you did this out of boredom, possibly out of a desire not to go down the paths you saw looming ahead.

If you didn’t want to generate sparks, why bring Eric Hufschmid into the discussion? Why bring up Ernst Zundel out of thin air, to inform us all of your disgust for him? Very few people take seriously the views of Eric and Ernie on any subject. The first apparently doesn’t believe a man walked on the moon; the second is a man whose published views indicate he spends a lot of time there. Both are men of straw in more than one sense.

I would much rather you had remained on Koestler, his speculations and their philosophical, ethnological and political implications, but apparently that was too down to earth for you. Did you just want to zig zag like the Bismark? When you make barbed comments, you should be prepared for others to explore their validity and implications.

Up to now you’ve never mentioned miscegenation as an issue in any discussion I’ve seen you engage in, but you’ve now brought it up as a reason for calling Zundel “a nasty piece of work”. As someone who is in favor of letting consenting adults choose their own sexual and marriage parters without duress, and who doesn’t recognize the concept of “race” per se or see any need to protect racial, national, ethnic or religious purity at the cost of individual liberty, I find the entire idea of being against freedom of choice in marriage in today’s world a ridiculous anachronism when held by an individual but an intolerable outrage when turned into national government policy. And frankly I’d very be surprised if you didn’t share this view.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation. I will leave it those reading this exchange (assuming anyone can be bothered) to make up their own minds about it.

“Look, my final advice, …. Anyway, I am done with this conversation.”

Decent dispatches a few parting shots,

dispenses agony aunt advice,

declares victory,

and departs into the depths of cyberspace.

“I don’t particularly care about Koestler’s Thirteenth Tribe.”

Says Decent about book he trashes with authoritative swagger.

“You pooh-poohed all of this and I provided evidence to show you I was correct…..”

Oh, that was very good! Indignation, acusations, projection and demonstrations of the same zig-zag ink-quirting squid evasion technique you deny ever using, all in one paragraph!

“Look, my final advice, ”

Decent agony aunt makes parting shot.

“Anyway, I am done with this conversation.”

Then declares victory and departs into the depths of the blogosphere.

“Then declares victory and departs into the depths of the blogosphere.”

The victory re: Ernst Zundel is self-evident and a declaration would be superfluous.

I’ve hardly run away. I’ve simply not opted to indulge your diversionary questions.

Arthur Koestler’s book might be important to you and if it is good luck but I’ve given my reasons for not reading it and I don’t particularly care if you’re not satisfied by them. I can’t read every book that’s ever been written and so I have to make judgements about which ones I will.

First off, does it sound interesting?

No.

Oh, well no need to continue even though I did when pressed.

It’s quite clear where you can find me and if you really want I’ll put this little exchange up on my blog in its entirey without any editing even for typos.