I wonder what Lyne is really saying here:

“Well, a picture to convince the people

13 who weren’t not convinced by our arguments in March.”

It’s not just the word ‘our’ that makes my think he’s a suitable member of the shillcot inquiry, but the fact that he seems to be suggesting if the people were convinced then the war would have been OK.

Bloody hell! That’s exactly what the bLiar coven was trying to do.

Are these people giving testimony under oath? Can they be recalled for (initial) interrogation, or are they just to give their stupid million lives spin?

This reads like a John Fortune/John Bird sketch.

I actually watched Hoon today at the Chilcot enquiry, but after around 30 seconds of it, I felt rather ill.

I am expecting a much better performance from Anthony Charles Lynton Blair, but would recommend that he and all parties involved, have at least 3 full rehearsals, of the entire performance in advance. It has to be extremely well scripted and be convincing enough to get them all off the possible hook of a full War Crimes Trial at the Hague.

We wouldn’t want that now would we?

It would be a complete disgrace to the UK government and also seriously embarrass the former and current Nazi’s in the Whitehouse.

Tony

They blatantly forgot they were talking about whether the war was legal and switched to talking about how they could have tricked people differently in the inevitable run-up to war, WMD or not.

I’ll never have respect for UK government or law while people who conspired and committed crimes of this magnitude not only walk free but are richly rewarded and respected.

Four not three of the five members of the Chilcot Inquiry are Privy Counsellors. Three of them were made Counsellors just one week before the start of the Inquiry.

“ORDER APPROVED AT THE PRIVY COUNCIL HELD BY THE QUEEN AT BUCKINGHAM PALACE ON 17th NOVEMBER 2009

COUNSELLORS PRESENT

The Rt Hon Lord Mandelson (Lord President)

The Rt Hon Jim Murphy MP

The Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo MP

The Rt Hon Mike O’Brien MP

The Rt Hon Christopher Geidt

Privy Counsellors Three Orders recording that The Right Honourable Professor Sir Lawrence Freedman, The Right Honourable Sir Roderic Lyne, and The Right Honourable Sir Nicholas John Patten, were sworn Members of Her Majesty’s Most Honourable Privy Council.

An Order recording that The Right Honourable Sir Martin Gilbert was sworn as a Member of Her Majesty’s Most Honourable Privy Council.”

Just before the Lockerbie trial two of the three trial judges were made Privy Counsellors, and henceforth made a judgment beyond comprehension.

Off topic Craig, but I’m sure you’ll understand – your ideological leanings have led you to appear at the same event as Christopher Bollyn.

Do you currently know where Christopher Bollyn is?

Craig. I think you and your pals are missing the point. He was asked if we could have made a better case with the international community if we had waited longer, and he is being honest, saying that in hindsight it wouldn’t have made any difference since there were no weapons to uncover.

He isn’t saying that he knew that at the time, just that he knows it now, so when answering if a bigger coalition could have been built with more time, the clear answer is no.

Is this not straight forward?

Craig, digging slightly deeper, now I’ve found out that you spoke at a conference partially sponsored by the American Free Press. The AFP? Really?

Would you speak before a Neo-Nazi group if they gave you a plane ticket?

Also, Ruth’s point is naive – they are made privy counsellors so that they can be cleared to access certain information, not as a bribe! Honestly…if they were being bribed they might at least save it til after!

I would very much like to see Mr Murray, or indeed, anyone sane, talking to a Neo-Nazi group. I’m not sure they’d listen.

AJS

But if he had genuinely only wanted to go to war because of WMD, he would have answred that it would be helpful to have more time, because then we would have learnt there were no WMD and not have needed to go to war.

It is a point you only miss if you are a blind supporter of the war. Like Powell. Like the committee. Like you, AJS.

Larry,

I have no idea who the person and organisation you refer to are, having never met nor heard of either of them. I am not going to defend an alleged association with someone I have never met or heard of.

Actually I will speak to almost anyone – your friends if you invite me. I do not vary my own beliefs by audience.

AJS

Why wasn’t the fifth member made a Privy Counsellor then?

Is ‘certain information’ being kept from her?

Why wasn’t the third judge in the Lockerbie trial made a counsellor

Was ‘certain information’ kept from him?

Perhaps you remember the “Axis for Peace” conference. You might remember that Helga Zepp-LaRouche and David Shayler were also there.

Sorry to be a stick-in-the -mud, but I can’t see anything resembling a smoking gun here. Powell is being asked whether more time would have been desirable and he’s saying no, there were no WMD to find, so more time searching would have been pointless. But he’s saying this with hindsight, he’s not saying they knew at the time there were no WMD.

Of course, I have no doubt that WMD was just the pretext, in fact Paul Wolfowitz confirmed this long ago when he admitted WMD was just the ‘One reason [for invading Iraq] that everyone could agree on.’ However, I’m equally sure they chose this pretext because they really believed the WMD existed and were genuinely shocked when they failed to turn up. After all, they would have been daft to choose a pretext that time would reveal to be bogus. (Which, of course, is precisely what happened.)

In my darkest moments of the night I fantasize about how awful it would have been, how unbearably insufferable Blair, Campbell and Co. would have been, if the WMD had turned up.

All we who opposed the war would have been ridiculed and completely stuffed.

The failure of the WMD to materialize almost makes me think there may be a God after all. And that He has a sense of humour.

Craig, did you really get all upset about Christopher Bollyn, a criminal, being arrested by the police?

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2006/08/from_the_land_o.html

SMEARS & LARRY ?” WHAT IS HIS REAL AGENDA. SHOULD I NOT BE ALLOWED TO REPLY ?

Craig,

It seems that Larry can libel me with impunity and yet my response gets removed from the site. Nothing of mine appears in Google or on your site, but Larry’s extraordinarily nasty lie does. Here is what appears:

####### What Larry from St. Louis Says: 1 day ago – Also, that Roderick Russell character – you certainly egged him on in his deranged thoughts. Posted by: Larry from St. Louis at January 19, 2010 2:07 PM … ######

I think that I should be entitled to point out the untruthfulness of Larry’s statement and that it is part of an ongoing strategy to professionally smear me. Yes, our comments were off topic, but I only posted mine in response to Larry’s very disgusting SMEAR which was posted on your blog. The decision to smear was Larry’s not mine.Unlike Larry, everything I write is analysed, and referenced to source material.

SMEARS are untruthful rumours spread to serve a purpose in Zerzetsen: (1) to provide an excuse for not investigating (smear might be – he is deranged, etc.) (2) To isolate him from the community (smear might be – he is a pedophile, or he committed a fraud, etc.). MI5/6 & CSIS use a technique for smearing that is sometimes called The Big Lie Strategy.

The blogger “CARTOONIST” described what they get up to in an earlier comment. On Craig’s site when he defined the former East German Secret Police “The STASI” technique for smearing, quoting in translation from the original German. He writes ?” “It’s about manipulating people or groups of people by typical STASI methods (hearsay, gossip, lies, spreading rumours about someone … the list goes on. It’s basically what has been done to Craig by the UK Government, funnily enough, although I fail to see the funny side)”.

The only thing the Smears have in common is that if you check them out there is not an iota of truth in any of them. All it proves is you are a victim of an intelligence operation. I’ve been accused of practically everything under the sun (at least a dozen smears over 2 decades), ranging from ?” he is involved in the international drug trade, to he is mad.

To see this latter SMEAR, click on my signature to bring up my WIKI, in the left hand margin of the Wiki, click under Table of Contents on item 4. and it will bring you to a chapter headed “Government Cover-Up Conspiracy ?” UK & Canada. Scroll down until you come to a topic headed – “MI5 smear using a crooked Judge to provide their smear with a false show of credibility “?” which summarizes it all. If you want more detail continue scrolling down until you come to a topic headed ?” “C: The Crooked English Judge ?” Assisting an MI5 smear campaign” ?” which provides the detail of this smear and how they did it. If you clip on Table of Contents Item 3 you will see an overview of MI5/6 & CSIS’s use of the Big Lie Technique with explanatory quotes from Academic sources and Mein Kampf that show the assumptions that underlie the big lie technique.

You will note the considerable amount of evidence that is available to back up my statements. Some of the documentary evidence is enclosed with the wiki, and you can see it for yourself.

If you know someone who has a problem with the intelligence services and suddenly a horrible rumour appears about him, I would take it with a pinch of salt.

Click on my signature for access to my wiki. The URL in my comment above,5 minutes ago, for some reason has been changed.

Roderick, please provide your 2 best pieces of evidence for your torture.

And so you now, if I write a letter to Obama telling him that frog people are after me, that does not serve as evidence that frog people are after me.

The points I take from this are:

1. MR JONATHAN POWELL “we asked for more time repeatedly from January onwards of the President, and we got more time in each case. Eventually, by the time we got to mid-March, he wasn’t going to give us more time”

- The UK had to go to war because the US President told them to. Very simple.

2. SIR RODERIC LYNE: Well, a picture to convince the people who weren’t not convinced by our arguments in March.

- “our arguments”

Making personal attacks on anyone, on the basis of whether or not they have, associated with anyone of a political view you don’t personally approve of shows a distinct lack of intelligence.

The entire basis of intelligence agencies is to associate and infiltrate whoever the opposition is considered to be.

But even at a social level, if you actually want to change the point of view of someone diametrically opposed to you, its a good idea to talk to them.

I have never been to a BNP meeting, but have spoken to many members of the BNP at a social level, and have gained great pleasure winding them up particularly with regards to their racist views when they are dancing to a reggae band and they are trying to scrounge a cigarette.

Nah – you won’t one of these mate – as I show them the Arabic writing on the packet.

If you actually talk to people – even Scousers – you can find common ground and laugh together.

You ain’t going to change anyones views just by going to your local church.

A lot of conflict in this world is because some people actually enjoy fighting each other. Football supporters are a classic case – but afterwards they are quite happy to drink together at a neutral pub. They have got lots in common. They like football grounds. They like drinking lots of alcohol – and they like beating the shit out of each other.

Tony

Roderick,

I asked a couple of questions in a previous post – have I over-looked your answers?

Larry,

You are tiresome. Look in what I say in the comments on that link:

“I am not endorsing – or commenting at all – on the accuracy of anything in Mr Bollyn’s journalism. I can’t recall having read anything else by him. I am not endorsing the idea that Israelis were warned to stay away from the Twin Towers – I simply have no idea if that is true or not. I have never made a close study of 9/11.

For what it is worth, my uninformed view is that official explanations gloss over a great deal, but the conspiracy theories would need too many people involved to be practical…

But the allegation that a dissident journalist in the US has been beaten up by police is important. That is why we posted it. Has anyone seen the police side of the story?”

The Helga you mention is yet another person I have never met. David Shayler is a friend of mine, who sadly has apparently lost his metal balance after relentless state persecution.

Roderick,

I am not doing anything to your posts.

Roderick Russell,

There is growing evidence that Larry from St. Louis is not actually a real person. If he is a real person it is highly unlikely that he is an agent of an Intelligence Organisation who is trying to Professionally smear you, because what he writes is totally lacking in any Intelligence.

I now think that it is entirely possible that Larry is actually a computer program – a chat bot.

So its best to ignore him if he bothers you. If you ignore him or it, you will come to no harm. If you react, your blood pressure may rise which may eventually cause a health problem if you don’t do enough exercise.

Tony

I can see that Craig (Even though I cannot read)!

On day that the United States invaded Iraq, President Bush said that we were doing so “reluctantly” but that “our purpose was clear” ?” to get rid of Saddam’s ‘weapons of mass murder.’

(Note: Bush did not say “purposes.” According to Bush, there was only one purpose.)

In an interview with Brit Hume, he said he would have invaded even if he knew there were no weapons of mass destruction.

12/14/05:

BUSH: I said I made the right decision. Knowing what I know today, I would have still made that decision.

HUME: So, if you had had this ?” if the weapons had been out of the equation because the intelligence did not conclude that he had them, it was still the right call?

BUSH: Absolutely.

3/19/03:

Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly ?” yet, our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder.

YOU LYING BASTARD – Dr David Kelly knew the truth – is that why he was murdered!

oops – conspiracy theory – watch out for Larry!

Craig,

Jeez – I didn’t know David was mentally unwell. I spoke with Annie Machon last year and she didn’t mention that. Annie has helped me enormously with information since she viewed my website in 2008 – Bless her – what a brave women and beautiful to boot!

Mark Golding – I responded to you in detail on Craigs “Missing You” blog on January 19, 2010 1:00 AM. And then I put a further response on the same blog to MJ at 3.49.

Tony – You don’t surprise me. His purpose is to spread smears about me, and also about you all and Craig’s blog.

Craig, Something I posted yesrerday on the smears got eliminated unless I have missed it. No matter. My internet connect is malfunctioning, and so I am using a library computer and have to sign off now. Best wishes. Roderick

Mark,

2 or 3 years ago, I went to the Eastern Haze Music festival and took my wife, daughter and her friend.

It was quite a big festival – about 10,000 I guess and went on for 3 or 4 days.

There were about 15 different stages and events – and there was also a 9/11 Truth tent. I didn’t go to any of the meetings, but spoke to a bloke on the stall, and he said Annie turned up, but that David had gone off his head and didn’t show.

There have since been numerous media reports about David Shayler living in various posh squats and looking like Peter Gabriel dressed as a Sunflower in his earlier days (or a close approximation)

Peter Gabriel who I have seen on numerous occasions shows little sign of being insane.

Whether David Shayler is or is not, is of course open to question.

People do react to tremendous stress in various different ways.

I saw Shayler on a Sunday morning program shortly before this with one of the journalists from the Mail, and he was making far more sense than was the journalist with regards to false flag attacks. I think Griffin was on too.

Now of course, he could have been got at, and fed LSD in his pint, or he could have simply lost it.

As a result of whatever happenned, he has lost a lot of weight, so I very much doubt if he is entirely faking it.

But if he wants to dress as a Sunflower then why not?

Tony

Craig,

So where did you hear of Christopher Bollyn? OK, so it wasn’t the Axis for Peace conference you were both at – you seem to claim that you got that info from somewhere else.

But you call this guy a “dissident journalist”. Why – because he believes the Jews did 911?

It’s good that you confirmed that you think of these conspiracy thinkers as conspiraloons.

In any event, it’s quite sick of you to go to bat for, of all people in the U.S., a Jew-hater. Quite telling.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/search?q=bollyn

Tony,

Thanks mate – I will try and contact Annie and find out about David. I am sure she will know if his mental state is OK – sunflower or not, maybe he has overdone dieting – I don’t think David (because of his training) would fall for LSD in the pint.

Mark: have a look here…

http://tinyurl.com/yecztkx

Craig – you can’t complain that he hasn’t answered the question in a sufficiently peace loving way. You have said there is a smoking gun but by your explanation the smoking gun is what wasn’t said rather than what was said. Come on..

Then you claim that I am a “blind supporter of the war”. Why would you make up such a silly thing without any evidence? Ad hominem?

Larry,

The only thing I ever heard about the man was the press release which I published as the entry you referred to. The press release came to me from “AFP” which I took (wrongly as it turned out) to be Agence France Presse. I published it saying it was an accusation to be looked into and asking if anyone had the Police side of the story. That is the only time I ever heard of the man, and I had forgotten that until you mentioned it.

AJS

No. Powell’s whole argument in this passage only makes sense if he is positing an underlying presumption that going to war is a desirabloe end irrespective of whether or not Iraq had WMDs.

That is an essential point and any decent cross-examining lawyer would have picked him up on it. It is also a point which jumps out instantly to anybody who does not share the presumption that the war was a good thing anyway.

That is why I think it is a perfectly fair deduction that you supported the war. I note that you do not say I am wrong.

tony_opmoc

I really disagree with your analysis that somebody can’t be an agent of an Intelligence because what he writes is totally lacking in any Intelligence.

The best way to damage a blog would be to lower the level with stupid remarks so intelligent/deep thinking people will be put off.

Seems to me all you guys waxing lyrical re-the Iraq Inquiry are trying feebly to breathe life into one very dead parrot.

That’s the parrot called “British democracy”.It was always a chimera.Our system is an oligarchy dominated by an elite still be assured of ignorance and complete obedience from the public.

Unsurprisingly the leaders lost respect for the led long ago.They now treat us with contempt.

Wise up-Bilderberger sets the date for war.When Bush and Blair were ready to go at the end of 2002,Bilderberger insisted they wait till March 2003.They also agreed on increasing the price of oil not long after war had begun.

The idea that there is ever any public input into decisions around such issues as war and oil prices or who will be US or EU President,or Prime Minister is pure fantasy.

Do you think we should have had a vote on whether David Kelly should have lived or died? It was never going to happen.The system you believe in died eons ago.

Such issues are decided long in advance behind firmly closed doors in places like the CFR,RIIA,Trilaterals.

You guys have simply read too many official history books,gleaned phoney information from corporate film and media and therefore cannot see through the utter banality that is the Iraq Inquiry.

Do you want to argue for hours re-auditing the Fed/the Bank of England.You might just as well.Neither of those things are going to happen either.Just like Blair and Campbell are never going to be prosecuted in the Hague or anywhere else.

They have the system entirely sewn up.Most of that is down to your incredible naivety.You still view the world and your place within it through a hopelessly anachronistic left/right paradigm.

Look,the Fed bank-rolled both Trotsky and Hitler.Either system works just fine for the international synarchy who who pull the strings of the puppets you take seriously.

You have been conditioned to believe this is all “conspiracy theory”.No,the bullshit they’ve brainwashed you lot into believing is conspiracy theory.Only the “conspirators” in the official conspiracy theories are the patsies and useful idiots used at operational level.The real conspirators remain hidden.Though it should be obvious by now that they have become increasingly up front about their plans.

What with the EU President hard on the heels of his election referring to 2009 as the first year of “global government”.

David Rockefeller long ago at Bildergerger 1991 thanked the official media present-it goes without saying that the press never report on what was discussed-for their silence on the Group’s activities over the previous forty years.This,Rockefeller said,had helped condition the public into imminent acquiescence with the global government agenda Bilderberger had long been working to achieve.

You would be better filling your time by trying to follow the tracks left by these real conspirators rather than the ones that work for them.

Take a look at the Hague ICC set-up it’s paid for by Rothschild agent, George Soros.That means you guys can witter on forever about who should be prosecuted but you will never know how much Rothschild and Soros made on the back of the take-down of Yugoslavia and the geopolitical subversion of the Great Lakes region in central Africa.

No,all you’ll ever know is the official Serb and Hutu genocide accounts of those conflicts.

Sadly the world is not as black and white and Hollywood-friendly as these accounts would have you believe.

The conditions for ethnic conflict and war in Yugoslavia were created by the IMF.In geopolitical terms Yugoslavia was an impediment to the corporate looting operation the Rothschilds and their allies had begun in the former Soviet Union and were keen to extend to Yugoslavia.

In Rwanda the Tutsi RPF were encouraged to invade from Uganda by Britain and the US.The plane shoot-down that killed the Habyrimana and the Hutu President of Burundi that precipitated the genocide has never been investigated. It was Boutros-Ghali’s view that there had been CIA involvement.

On the back of that conflict the Great Lakes region has been racked by war that has facilitated the removal of regimes unwilling to play ball with the international synarchy’s corporate looters.

Are the RPF or the KLA war criminals going to be prosecuted any time soon?

No they were the ones on side with the corporate warmongers.

Forget talking and going on marches.

Educate yourself.

Craig, come on. Can any serious person buy your Agence France Presse claim? You typed the words “American Free Press” and then linked to RBN, a nutty right-wing American Internet radio station.

Apparently you do have company in espousing this anti-Semitic nutjob’s cause:

http://www.davidduke.com/general/christopher-bollyn-abused-by-chicagos-zionist-police-force_900.html

“It’s good that you confirmed that you think of these conspiracy thinkers as conspiraloons”.

Larry: I don’t think Craig quite said that, but I’m glad you finally got an answer to the question you’d been pestering him for and that you’re satisfied with it. I’m satisfied with it too. That’s a bit odd isn’t it?

I think Craig should have been a diplomat.

Well, when a BNP member starts quoting from indymedia, we know we are all safe.

“It is also a point which jumps out instantly to anybody who does not share the presumption that the war was a good thing…”

Sorry but it doesn’t jump out at me, and considering none of the other commentators in the media have spotted this alleged smoking gun I suspect it hasn’t jumped out at them either.

Powell is saying that asking for more time would have served no purpose because there was nothing to find. That’s what he thinks now. For your interpretation to work it would mean he believed that at the time i.e. he knew there were no WMD. As I said earlier, I believe Blair & Co. were as shocked as anyone when the WMD failed to materialise.

Tend to agree, but in fact can’t remember who Blair’s inner coterie was at the time, and whether Powell was part of it. Must re read Blair’s Wars. The ‘inner coterie’ (as I remember from Kampfner, around 5 people) knew very well that taking part in the attack, as the US’s second lieutenant, was inevitable, and that they therefore had to sell it to the public, whatever it took. Whether they ‘believed’ in WMD’s, and hoped they would find them or not, was irrelevant.

Surely Powell must have known of the over-riding imperative. In fact, he makes it very clear that he did, in what seems to be almost a cry for help.

Ruth,

I agree with you completely. I have seen it happen on numerous other blogs, such that they were totally trashed.

There are few defences against such censorship of free speech, by those determined to destroy by posting extremely large volumes of mindless crap, such that all sensible discussion is drowned.

Apostate,

Great post, but I thought Daniel Estulin’s book on Bilderberg poor, and the leaked comments of the attendee’s dire – as if despite their enormous wealth, they were complete blithering idiots.

I think the whole sorry mess will eventually self destruct, and people with integrity and courage will stand up to these psychopaths and say NO – we are Not going to go along with your lunatic Genocide.

Climategate and the Copenhagen farce were a good start.

These people are not shape shifting reptillians, they are just extremely rich, evil humans.

Tony

“Letter to Lord Advocate calls for arrest of Anthony Charles Lynton Blair”…

http://tinyurl.com/ykwfooa

KingofWelshNoir,

While you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, I was a British Ambassador at the time, not to mention a former Head of the FCO Section of the Embargo Surveillance Centre set up specifically to monitor Iraqi weapons procurment.

I KNOW they knew there were no WMD.

You are quite correct in saying that:

“Powell is saying that asking for more time would have served no purpose because there was nothing to find. That’s what he thinks now”

Can you not see that if Powell’s objective was to find the truth, finding that Iraq had no WMD would have been most helpful and avoided a war? It can only be not useful if your object is to have a war rather than to ensure that Iraq has no WMD.

One of the Amazon reviews for Blair’s Wars (Kampfner, 2004):

This is a fascinating book, extremely well written, and most satisfyingly, the author remains constantly neutral in the face of all the facts. He only ever presents facts or source information…

…Some of the revelations in the book are astounding – Blair’s link to Halliburton is fascinating and worrying, as are plenty of the Alastair Campbell moments.

You also get a very clear view of the Britain-US relationship. From the dramatic events of the 11th of September, the main players in the relationship are detailed. The Doves v Hawks situation in the US is considered, and their influence on Blair and Bush (who genuinely comes across as a man unfit to preside, not through any deliberate effort on Kampfner’s part) is all interesting stuff.

actually, kingofwelshnoir, scrub that. We all knew they knew there were no WMD’s. It was insulting to be lied to so badly.

Craig,

“former Head of the FCO Section of the Embargo Surveillance Centre set up specifically to monitor Iraqi weapons procurment”

So are you suggesting that Hussein did not have chemical weapons in 1990-1991?

MJ,

Bless him I can understand his modus operandi – probably to get some peace after all that hounding and the heart wrenching break from Annie whom he loved dearly. So yes he had an emotional breakdown, that together with holding still valid secrets (I presume he was cleared to ‘Top Secret’ as an agent. So many people are obsessed with 2012 as a key milestone – OK December 2012 marks the ending of the current b’ak’tun cycle of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar – Hmmm maybe David sees it as a key date for the ‘end game’ in the middle East?

Lets play a game – can anyone see a ‘pincer movement’ with around 120,000 soldiers in Iraq, 80,000 in Afghanistan and oh say 20,000 right on the Pakistan border and 1000 or so special forces scattered from Ashgabat, Sheshtalan down to Tamp Kuh all working out of Kandahar and looking towards Multan.

As I say – just a game…

No, he definitely did, and I helped stop him getting more.

Even I knew, that they knew there were no WMD’s by a simple web search of the US & UK Govt and UN websites – which stated the facts quite clearly. If I could find that information, then any journalist could.

I did post the links several times, and could probably find my original posts if I spent some time searching for them but I can’t be bothered.

I Did March down Whitehall in Protest Though – which is the only time I have actually taken part in such a Political Event.

I did use to March when I was an Altar Boy in Oldham though. We had some amazing Processions in support of our Holy Pope – Far bigger than the Protestants.

But now I think we need to bring back Oliver Cromwell (with apologies to the Irish)

Tony

I’m glad someone finally brought up the upcoming events in December 2012! We should all get ready!

Cromwell? Never!

George,

That tinyurl redirect to sacc appears to be broken?

Major – is that John or rank? (lol)

I think we are ready – are we not?

No – it’s just a nickname! I’m getting a survival pack ready – what are you doing to prepare?

Out of order – but just seen Mrs Brown on the box – what a fab speech – Bless you darling – well done!

Major,

Anderson shelter in the garden!

Mark

Try it again.

OK Craig, I apologise, I get it now. JP in his final remark says ‘More time would have achieved nothing.’ But obviously that’s not true. More time could have definitively established there were no WMD and thus avoided the war. Sorry.

I didn’t know, by the way, that they knew there were no WMD all along. I always knew it was a pretext but assumed they believed the weapons existed. I mean, what were they expecting to happen once they took over Iraq and found nothing?

Apostate,

From what I know I entirely agree with you. In the UK there is a ‘government’ which directs the main policy of the government that we know. The secret government uses taxpayers’ money to fund their agenda.

Ruth, don’t agree with you. Have you read Mark Curtis’ Web of Deceit? It’s bad enough as it is.

Sorry, am housebound with flu at the moment & posting tons: not always this bad. Kingofwelshnoir: do you think they could have underestimated the British public? The wave in response to this from the peace movement, from the heart of the people, was huge.

Roderick,

You really should get the German spelling right.

Apart from that, the comments are really deteriorating again. And it’s certainly not only Larry’s fault; it’s probably the Bilderbergs who are behind this.

Sorry Craig – this is not MSN I know -

George,

I can’t get the link – the source is unavailable.

Ruth,

I’m torn between you and technicolour – there is of course a secret ‘agenda’ that decides where our Naval ships should be and where our special forces operate, that is clear – that strategy is conveyed to the Chiefs of Staff.

We know Tony Blair, the former prime minister, misled MPs and the public throughout 2002 when he claimed that Britain’s objective was “disarmament, not regime change” and that there had been no planning for military action. In fact, British military planning for a full invasion and regime change began in February 2002.

There was also the need to conceal this from Parliament and all but “very small numbers” of officials “constrained” the planning process. The result was a “rushed” operation “lacking in coherence and resources” which caused “significant risk” to troops and “critical failure” in the post-war period.

So perhaps the “secret government” is in America as the sole superpower. Bush at some point visited the Queen at least twice, a valuable and meaningful source of great knowledge.

—start quote

MR JONATHAN POWELL: No. I mean, if you think about it,

Iraq didn’t have weapons of mass destruction. We were

wrong. The intelligence was wrong. So, no matter how

long you had carried the inspections on, they weren’t

going to find anything, and, from what we know of

Saddam, it is extremely unlikely that he would have

cooperated. So we would have been in exactly the same

situation for months and months and months.

—end quote

That is a puzzling staement. In the first half, Powell appears to admit that nothing would be found, but then he goes on to say that SH would not have cooperated. Yet Blix, Ritter and Kay said they had full cooperation, and Blix (the last) demanded another three months to prove the case positively one way or another.

Then the weapons inspectors were pulled out on the eve of our acts of aggression, because we – the US/UK “coalition of the willing” (willing to commit war crimes) were about to start bombing. And then Dubbya lied and said SH had kicked him out, and the slavish news-hounds faithfully reported this as fact.

So we wouldn’t have been in the same situation for months and months, far from it – the only passingly genuine case for war would have been made or broken within three months.

I know this, and I’m nobody important at all. How come the experts at getting at the truth, like Sir Roderic Lyne, didn’t know this?

Do they believe their job is to call witnesses, ask them to state their side of the story, say “Thank you very much, sir”, and move on to the next? I suppose so. And in summing up, they will thank all the witnesses for their contributions, suggest perhaps lessons should be learned, and that’s the end of the matter.

Some people think the entire thing was a British job.

I know, this at first seems ridiculous, and we come near the bottom of the list of suspects…

But I have always thought of Israel as just a US airbase, whilst the US have always thought of the UK as their Aircraft Carrier…

But most people in the UK, including the Armed Forces and Probably The Queen and The Bankers think the Americans are a bunch of irresponsible useless cunts who haven’t a fucking clue how to run an Empire…

So exactly how do you go about collapsing it?

I note a Sterling Performance From our Prime Minister Gordon Brown and the UK Bankers about 15 months ago..

You Probably Have No Idea How Much Wealth Was Transferred From the US to the UK and the rest of the World after Gordon Brown’s action…

I know everyone hates him, but he is far more intelligent than either Blair – or his airhead clone Cameron.

Though I won’t be voting Labour

Tony

Technicolour

I haven’t read Mark Curtis’ Web of Deceit. What does it say?

Mark

Browser?.

Full link…

http://www.sacc.org.uk/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=795&catid=51

Ruth,

Some of Mark Curtis’s analysis is correct, particularly the historical content, but in no way do I agree with all of this, but his book is probably a good read. He’s definitely a bright lad

http://www.human-nature.com/reason/01/curtis.html

Tony

“I really disagree with your analysis that somebody can’t be an agent of an Intelligence because what he writes is totally lacking in any Intelligence.”

If I was an Evil Spy intent on disrupting things here, I wouldn’t employ Larry. There are too many people willing to behave like that for no reward other than some personal satisfaction. He’s a petty bully, looking for people who’ll act like victims, is all. Occam’s razor – I don’t say evil conspiracies don’t or couldn’t exist, just that Larry explains himself fine without them. Don’t make him any bigger than he really is. “Don’t feed the trolls”.

“The best way to damage a blog would be to lower the level with stupid remarks so intelligent/deep thinking people will be put off.”

That, I agree with. I _might_ think about paying people to react to him.

Oops, I think I just blew my cover

(disappears in a cloud of self-referential smoke).

Ruth,

More on Mark Curtis. I may buy one of his books…

http://markcurtis.info/

Tony

Apostate is a full-on anti-semite, along with Steelback.

And Tony Gosling is a daft conspiraloon.

angrysoab,

Whilst what you say may or may not be true, I am fairly certain from reading what they have written that neither of them are Sons of Bitches, though they May Well Be Angry.

You meanwhile call yourself an

Angry Son Of a Bitch

Before you say a word.

People do notice these subtle differences

Tony

Richard: I entirely agree. Types like “wide stance” Larry can be found everywhere, and remind me of yappy little dogs. It finally gets your attention, so you turn around to give the thing a decent boot, and it yelps and runs off. At a safe distance, it turns around to yap some more.

Were such lightweights interested in attracting any credibility, they would stay on a topic or two, and show what they’re made of. Learning, contributing, providing original thought. But with the likes of “wide stance” Larry, it’s all about yapping, snapping and running. Trying to pretend they’re up with the big boys and girls, but they’ve got nothing. The betters of such people would try to learn and understand what’s being said to them, but when one is so ignorant that they don’t know what they don’t know, there’s little hope. At least back in the day, I did have some insight into what I didn’t know. But the Larry’s don’t.

Is it not said, “To laugh at those of wisdom is the privilege of fools” ?

And it’s to get attention, of course. The class clown gets a few laughs and some scorn, but it’s the attention they crave. Can’t contribute anything meaningful? Well, heck, make a fool of yourself – shout, swear, insult people, keep asking stupid questions.

Grow up, all you “Larry” or “Patrick” / “wide-stance” people of the world – we so badly need wisdom these days instead of yet another class clown.

“I am fairly certain from reading what they [Apostate and Steelback] have written that neither of them are Sons of Bitches, though they May Well Be Angry.”

They’re both raving anti-semites. Something that may give them a pass in your book but not in mine.

Oh, and learn to read, will you. I do not call myself a “son of a bitch” and, no Glenn, it won’t even pass for irony. It’s just silly.

Glenn, your last comment seemed to use a lot of words to infer you are far cleverer and wiser than people who disagree with you but not say much else.

soba: I imagine you mean “imply” instead of “infer” in your last sentence … but don’t worry, it’s a _very_ common mistake.

‘”wide stance” Larry”. If, again, I was EvilPlot[tm], that’s the sort of thing I might consider paying a bit for (not as a once-off, but maybe in bulk). How does trying to play guilt-by-association with a different individual’s sexual hypocrisy help to move the conversation in any worthwhile direction ?

“we so badly need wisdom these days instead of yet another class clown.” But, yes. That, I agree with. We do.

Glenn: “soba: I imagine you mean “imply” instead of “infer” in your last sentence … but don’t worry, it’s a _very_ common mistake.”

“?”verb (used with object) 1. to derive by reasoning; conclude or judge from premises or evidence: They inferred his displeasure from his cool tone of voice.

2. (of facts, circumstances, statements, etc.) to indicate or involve as a conclusion; lead to.

3. to guess; speculate; surmise.

4. to hint; imply; suggest. ”

“Usage note:

Infer has been used to mean “to hint or suggest” since the 16th century by speakers and writers of unquestioned ability and eminence…”

Glenn, if you’re going to attempt to score cheap points then try to make them on target. Don’t worry, pedantry is a _very_ common tactic for those losing an argument but when it backfires, as it did just then it can make you look even more foolish than you already looked. Especially when it only underlines my point.

Ruth: Curtis essentially reveals that governments lie. They say one thing in public & support another in private (cf bombing of Hanoi). I think this is what you mean by a ‘secret government’. From a book review at the time:

“It’s not just that Web of Deceit confirms the worst about the people who are supposedly our “elected representatives” – the “political elite” as Curtis refers to them. Or the fact that it rather obviates the need for exotic conspiracy theories, when real, cold-blooded horror like this lurks beneath the surface of our system of government, accessible, in records, to anyone, like Curtis, who can be bothered to look.”

Tony, a soba’s at 1.25 is right, you know.

well, apart from being insulting. Gosling was one of the people who originally exposed the Biederbeck Group, I believe, but after that went a bit off the rails, as so often seems to happen.

Do you mean Bilderberg?

Drat, would obviously rather be listening to that golden trumpet. Yes.

“Gosling was one of the people who originally exposed the Biederbeck [sic] Group, I believe”

I don’t think so. They’ve been known about for some time.

I heard the euphemism ‘adding local colour’ used for the lies about Saddam being ’45 minutes’ from firing chemical warheads on the UK and this being ‘a threat to the UK’ (despite our nuclear deterrent). I think it was by Geoff Hoon.

‘They’ve been known about for some time’. Yes. The Big Issue, in tandem with Gosling, broke the Bilderberg story in 1999.

http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg29263.html

So actually not a ‘conspiraloon’.

“So actually not a ‘conspiraloon’.”

No. He IS a conspiraloon.

He was on Press TV with Yvonne Ridley explaining how 7/7 was probably an inside job and some Israelis got phone calls telling them not to leave their hotels (or something or other).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBO6dWCtu8w

At the time. See previous qualification.

“The Big Issue, in tandem with Gosling, broke the Bilderberg story in 1999.”

The Bilderberg group existed and known to exist long before that too.

Chip Berlet, a progressive journalist, has talked about them well before Gosling and thinks the conspiracy theories around it are held by gullible/credulous people (I think these are his words).

Berlet cites some old right-wing commentators as originators of the theories and has said that the current left-wing conspiracies are rehashing of old John Birch Society paranoia.

http://www.publiceye.org/rightwoo/rwooz9-03.html

Look, just as an example, here’s the title of a Times article from 1977:

Caroline Moorehead (18 April 1977). “An exclusive club, perhaps without power, but certainly with influence: The Bilderberg group”. The Times.

angrysoba,

glenn is correct.

From ‘Fowler’s Modern English Usage’:

- ‘You clearly infer that your policy was influenced to some extent by your feeling of loyalty to the Labour government.’ -

This misuse of ‘infer’ for ‘imply’ is sadly common – so common that some dictionaries give ‘imply’ as one of the definitions of ‘infer’ without comment. But each word has its own job to do, one at the giving end and the other at the receiving (‘What do you imply by that remark? What am I to infer from that remark?’) and should be left to do it without interference.

hawley_jr:

It’s your appeal to authority against mine.

I know it existed before then. And of course people knew about it. No story exists in thin air. By break, I mean that the story didn’t get out into the public until the Big Issue ran it (good for Caroline Moorehead though).

I am aware that the existence of the Bilderberg gives rise to all sorts of complaints about a powerful elite operating in secrecy without accountability. I can’t see the problem myself. But then I haven’t read the 64 pages of leaked minutes from 2007 which appear to give Russia carte blanche to ‘intervene’ in Chechnya: those lucky Chechens.

@angrysoba: “It’s your appeal to authority against mine.”

Now you’re making yourself look silly. Though I must admit I wouldn’t expect humility from you.

ps ‘perhaps without power’ is stretching it a bit.

George,

Interesting – I am unable to resolve sacc.org.uk and I receive emails from them.

I had to go proxy to reach the address George! and I tried an encrypted (128 Bit AES) connection using ‘ghost’ software (very useful) AND MANAGED TO CONNECT -

What does that tell me – no sure yet but investigating!!!

“ps ‘perhaps without power’ is stretching it a bit.”

Maybe, but I think the term “power” here is referring to official decision-making power as in that held by governments, hence it is being contrasted with “influence”.

Of course. But a) we increasingly have a presidential system (decisions taken by inner coterie and spun) and b) see issue of Chechnya, above.

technicolour,

“I am aware that the existence of the Bilderberg gives rise to all sorts of complaints about a powerful elite operating in secrecy without accountability. I can’t see the problem myself.”

Initially I was of that view, even after reading Estulin’s book on Bilderberg. In principle I could see nothing much wrong with extremely rich influential people meeting with each other in private and discussing world wide policy issues.

But the more I thought about it, the worse it seems. The end result is completely anti-democratic. It literally ends up, with an extremely small group of people becoming Dictators of virtually the entire World.

I am very much against dictatorship, because it is an extremely inefficient system of running anything. It results in powerful people who have no detailed understanding of how things actually are and can become imposing ridiculous unworkable and even disasterous decisions because of their ignorance.

An example of dictatorship is in Guido’s blog today, where someone is complaining that Cameron, never even meets his most senior politicians to discuss policy – ie just like the Blair dictatorship.

Dictatorship is rampant across society, and it has resulted in us being in the current total mess.

We need to break down large structures, both Government and Company into much smaller units, and return democracy to the local level. Having bureaucrats based over 1,000 miles away making decisions with regards how a local community should or should not be run, is ludicrous. What the hell does someone in an office in a different time zone know about the detail of making Lancashire Black Puddings? Its none of his soddin business and Lancashire should tell him to keep his nose out and piss off.

As regards accusations of certain people being anti-semitic because they point out for example that the State of Israel is an apartheid state that commits genocide, and that Israel pays most US & UK politicians enormous sums of money in a highly successful attempt to gain undue influence – which is totally corrupt and against the interests of the US & UK – well so far as I can see that is not only perfectly acceptable criticism, but also so politically correct, that even people like Naomi Campbell are calling for total trade sanctions against Israel. It seems to me that the people running Israel are the height of evil, perhaps even worse than the likes of Cheney & Blair.

Tony

I was being ironic, Tony. Have you read ‘Them’ by Jon Ronson? Somehow very reassuring: thoroughly recommend.

I agree, though it’s a bit dull to have to say it again, that criticising the Israeli government is not anti-semitic. However there are (gosh) people who are anti-semitic, and anti-Muslim, and homophobic, and anti-people of all colours, including lefties. Which is, of course, their privilege, but not if they’re trying to enter politics. So would you say that the ‘legal advisor’ to the BNP was none of these things? Go and look at his posts on Harry’s Place if you have the inclination: he’s called Lee John Barnes, in real life.

“It seems to me that the people running Israel are the height of evil, perhaps even worse than the likes of Cheney & Blair.”

Zionists Tony?

What on earth does that mean, Mark? Don’t start again with the Zionist stuff, please. I think we all know where we are with that one.

Technicolour,

Where are we with that one?

We are at the point where if every decent commentator on this board who objects to slurs, insinuations, abuse etc has to come on again pointing out that they object to Zio-conspiracy shit they will get very very bored.

There are different types of Zionism. Did you know that?

No – I didn’t know – but willing to learn.

I only know the right to self-determination in their national home.

If that involves slaughter – then so be it!

Which is absolute total and insulting bollocks.

I do apologise, Mark, I was under the impression that before throwing words like ‘Zionist’ around, people would have read a little about the subject. Or perhaps, even know a Jewish person to talk to. Obviously not. Fortunately, it is not hard. If you read all the way down the Wiki page, you will find this:

General Zionism (or Liberal Zionism) was initially the dominant trend within the Zionist movement from the First Zionist Congress in 1897 until after the First World War. General Zionists identified with the liberal European middle class (or bourgeoisie) to which many Zionist leaders such as Herzl and Chaim Weizmann aspired. Liberal Zionism, although not associated with any single party in modern Israel, remains a strong trend in Israeli politics advocating free market principles, democracy and adherence to human rights, although Kadima does identify with many of the fundamental policies of Liberal Zionist ideology, advocating among other things the need for Palestinian statehood in order to form a more democratic society in Israel, affirming the free market, and calling for equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel.

technicolour,

I abhor people like the Ku Klux Klan, or anyone who is so ignorant, that their hatred is such that they literally want to kill purely on the basis of skin colour, race or religion.

However, I can fully appreciate how many indigenous people feel when their local community is totally overwhelmed, by a completely different culture, without them having any means whatsoever to protect themselves from such invasion.

It has happenned to the indigenous Native American, and the indigenous Native Aborigini, and the indigenous Native Oldhamer.

To quote just 3 examples (I could even say the Native indigenous Londoner).

Now, personally, I am not that bothered, because it is simply a natural result of the British formerly running an Empire.

But when I went back to Oldham after 20 years to show my 5 year old son, where I was born and grew up, I may as well have taken him to a town in India of Pakistan. I was completely astonished at the change.

In fact their are some parts of India, that have a much higher concentration of English people than does Oldham.

Now if you are of the view, that all people from all over the world – are pretty much the same – regardless of their culture etc, then you may well see this as a good thing.

But not everyone shares the same view. It is a fact, that all over the world, people really are tribal. Its very evident in the UK in many towns, where a former English culture has been almost totally replaced.

Pointing this out and objecting to it, is not being racist.

The kind of harrassment, leading to genocide that was committed against the Jews in Germany, and is now being committed by UK & US governments against Muslims most definitely is racist.

Tony

technicolour,

accepted

My boss (Ronii) in Victoria London was a lovely kind Jewish man – all I know, he taught me = he advocated a Jewish state for ALL its citizens.

Oddly, the BNP vote in Blackburn, after years of campaigning, was about the same as Craig Murray’s after 3 months. I don’t know about Oldham.

All you have to do is look around a place like Oldham, or Blackburn, or Tottenham, and imagine the scene if the BNP had their way. They believe in forced deportation, remember? These places would be deserts. Parts of London would look like 28 Days Later. And yet most of the UK would hardly notice, because the TOTAL ethnic minority population in the UK is 7.9 percent. That’s less than 8 people out of a hundred. Hardly an ‘English’ culture being nationally displaced. As for Muslims, the BNP’s favourite bete noir – around three percent. Yes, I can see they’re going to take over our morris dancing in a hurry.

I have every sypathy for the people who vote BNP out of ignorance, or because they’re misguided, or because they’re desperate, or because they’ve been bullied into it. I have very little for the BNP’s ‘leaders’.

By the way, is Oldham by any chance ruled by a corrupt and inefficient Labour council? Seemed to be a lot of the real problems behind Blackburn.

Most definitely racist Tony – I agree – a subject close to my heart and one in which I have spoken about at ISB conferences.

The fact of the matter is that it is no longer acceptable in the developed world for a state to exist and operate based on religion, race or skin colour.

Regardless of where in the world people live, they should all have equal rights regardless.

Whilst history cannot be rewound, Apartheid states such as Israel are a blot on humanity.

The vast majority of Israeli’s have no more historical, racial or religious right to live in Israel, than did Europeans to run the Apartheid State of South Africa.

Most Israeli’s have exceedingly white skins which reflects their real historical origins. They have as much right to take over Palestine and expel the indigenous Semites, as would Catholic Eskimos taking over the Vatican.

khazaria.com

jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/whatis.cfm

Tony

Having allowed the invasions, and allowed the word ‘muslim’ to become of any interest whatsoever, the government are now damned if they do, and damned if they don’t. Was anyone wondering whether the Nazis were ‘racist’ because they invaded Poland? What bothers me is implicit support for a new group of people in this country who actively hate, who are actively anti, who actively try and conflate every beef going into one mass theory of awfulness (Zio-Muslim_banker-corporate-shill-bloodlines-fuckthegovernment-wank). Where’s your stand against them?

“But when I went back to Oldham after 20 years to show my 5 year old son, where I was born and grew up, I may as well have taken him to a town in India of Pakistan. I was completely astonished at the change.”

I doubt that very much, unless people were speaking Hindi or Urdu. And does it not bother you to use words like ‘invasion’ about legal and peaceful migration? Iraq was an ‘invasion’.

the above was to tony-opmoc.

CARTOONIST re your January 20, 2010 10:22 PM comment.

I do apologize for using your well translated quote alongside my bad German spelling. If I use your quote again, I will spell the word zersetzung your correct way so as not to leave any erroneous impression that my misspelling is associated with you. Otherwise I have to continue to spell in my mistaken manner (zerzetsen or zerzetzen ?” I’m not even consistent) because the search engines have a considerable body of material referenced to my old erroneous spelling. Incidentally, I appreciated your comments.

Roderick, why don’t you contact the Cartoonist directly? I am sure he will be delighted to hear from you. In the meantime, you are way off topic, please don’t muddle this thread, as I’m interested in it. Don’t bother replying to me, just to the Cartoonist.

and tony-opmoc, how you can unblushingly equate what happened to the Native American Indians and the aborigines with what has happened to the ‘indigenous’ people of Oldham is extraordinary. Were the people of Oldham massacred? Were they deliberately infected with small pox? Have I missed something?

You, my friend, are hanging out with some strange leaps of logic. I’d watch them, if I were you. It doesn’t sit so well with your ‘most people are lovely’ approach, or were those sops to the board?

I see. Now you equate the arrival of Pakistanis and Indians in the UK with a Nazi invasion. So, to recap, the people with darker skins living in areas of the North and London are

a) Carrying out genocide, as was committed against the ‘indigenous peoples’ of North America and Australia

b) The equivalent of the Nazis.

I think it’s quite clever of the BNP to start throwing the word ‘Nazi’ around as though they despised it; and also to accuse of other people of anti-semitism. This does not detract from the fact that at BNP festivals, the festival goers give Nazi salutes and sing the Horst Wessell song. I guess you can have your cake and eat it, right, tone?

technicolour,

I was talking about cultural displacement and cited 4 examples. I could well have argued, that the people of Oldham were the most welcoming in the World.

I don’t need to take lessons in morality from you, when you have quiet clearly demonstrated your own tribal prejudices and bias.

Try coming out of your box and being objective.

Tony

You were talking about ‘cultural displacement’? Pull the other one. You were equating the experience of ‘indigenous’ (white) people in Oldham (and three other examples) with the experiences of Native Americans and aborigines who, may I remind you, were murdered in vast numbers. Not to mention equating the arrival of darker skinned people in the UK to the arrival of the Nazis.

Give it up. Time for a rethink, or another alias.

technicolor,

I was hoping for a response from you after a kick in the bollocks – but all I saw was a telling off to Roderick?

Well, Mark, your comment was beautiful and made me smile. I’m not trying to tell Roderick off.

and thank you!

No worries – ‘normalized’ Zionism makes sense to me having read the protocols. An obvious question for you is are you at peace with post-Zionism after your outburst?

Sorry, ‘outburst’? Which ‘outburst’? Please, reproduce it.

Am I ‘at peace with pro-Zionism’? What does that mean? I thought we had agreed that the word ‘Zionism’ contained many shades of meaning. Are you the same Mark Golding?

‘Having read the protocols’? What?

Oh, I see. ‘advocated a Jewish state for all its citizens’. Very clever. Sorry, thought you were acting in good faith, and therefore did not submit you to linguistic scrutiny. My mistake.

I refer you back to the definition of ‘Liberal Zionism’: “advocating among other things the need for Palestinian statehood in order to form a more democratic society in Israel, affirming the free market, and calling for equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel.”

Roderick, by the way, I am often way off topic myself, so no telling off intended, as I’m sure you know. Sorry we can’t meet up for that pint.

Bless you technicolour – I feel at ease now. Talk to you soon (I’m in conference at mo)

technicolour,

Whilst you are far more intelligent, subtle and linguistically competent than some other posters on here, your true colour’s shine through.

You see you try your hardest to hide them and succeed most of the time.

However, for any poster who dares raise any criticism of your tribal bias, you use the standard personal attack dog technique together with a deliberate misinterpretion of the meaning of what was said.

You accuse others of using exactly the same techniques that you do.

I’m convinced you know full well, the real origins of one hell of a lot of evil.

What you don’t seem to realise is that the innocent, do not go into repetitive aggressive defence of their tribe, because they have done nothing wrong to defend.

Such, continual repetetive defence clearly demonstrates the guilt you are trying to hide.

Tony

Dear Tony, I have nothing to hide. I think you need to rethink your analogies, at the very least. I would very much like an answer to my question about the real problems in Oldham.

technicolour,

I have almost no experience of Oldham in well over 30 years.

If you have nothing to hide, I would love to hear from you with regards to what you were doing in the North-West Frontier Province?

Were you there as a tourist, a hippy on a pilgrimage to discover the meaning of Led Zeppelin’s Kashmir, an aid worker, a soldier, or a member of an Intelligence Agency?

“technicolor: “asoba: point of order: I was in the NWFP/Afghanistan. The USA directly funded Hekmatyar.”

Thanks. Okay, I can certainly go a long with that.

That sounds very intrepid of you. When were you there?

Posted by: angrysoba at January 18, 2010 1:38 PM”

You never answered the question

Tony

Mmm, and why should I tell you, now, at this stage,’Tony’? Reply to my previous points please, first:

“and tony-opmoc, how you can unblushingly equate what happened to the Native American Indians and the aborigines with what has happened to the ‘indigenous’ people of Oldham is extraordinary. Were the people of Oldham massacred? Were they deliberately infected with small pox? Have I missed something?”

oh, and this one:

“So, to recap, the people with darker skins living in areas of the North and London are

a) Carrying out genocide, as was committed against the ‘indigenous peoples’ of North America and Australia

b) The equivalent of the Nazis.”

Go for it. Apologies are fine.

I am quoting your own words directly (well copied and pasted by angrysoba), and asking for you to expand on them, as you say you have nothing to hide.

Yet you obfuscate, and ask me to answer, your total misrepresentation of what I said?

I am not going to answer for something I didn’t say.

I am merely asking you to expand on something you did say.

Or have you indeed something to hide?

Tony

Look, I understand the anguish of poor people faced with foreclosure and slow starvation. I have seen and talked to people on council estates in Blackburn. It is all wrong. But the ‘wrong’ is not in people’s skin colour; it’s in the division and lack of warmth. Nick Griffin is getting rich off of it, don’t you understand?

Anyway. I was in the NWFP/Afghanistan in 1990, angrysoba, sorry for having missed your question there. Thank you so much, Tony for pointing out that I did.

Sorry, angrysoba, it was meant to say ‘in 1997′, not ’1990′. Duh.

tone, are you anywhere near to addressing your analogies yet?

technicolour,

I virtually lived in a Council Estate in Bradford for a year, 10 years before you were in NWFP/Afghanistan – what exactly were you doing there?????

I can assure you that the “anguish of poor people faced with foreclosure and slow starvation” and “division and lack of warmth” was not an issue then, and almost certainly is not now.

So I guess it was either the CIA or Mossad.

If it had been MI6 your choice of words and knowledge of Northern England would be different.

But how come you flew all the way to Blackburn to support Craig Murray’s election campaign or did you make that bit up?

Tony

?

You posted that before, Tony.

I’m quite prepared to believe you’re acting in good faith, but could you just refute your allegations that suggest:

a) You equate the arrival of Pakistanis and Indians in the UK with a Nazi invasion.

b) Their arrival is carrying out genocide, as was committed against the ‘indigenous peoples’ of North America and Australia

Thank you.

By the way, Tone, you missed out ‘working for an NGO’ as one of your reasons for being in the NWFP/Afghanistan region at that time. Very suspicious, oh yes.

Sorry, don’t mean to take the piss.

I didn’t make such allegations, that was merely your misinterpretation of what I said.

Now will you answer the question.

What were you doing in NWFP/Afghanistan in 1997 and who were you working for and what were your objectives.

You did say you have nothing to hide, and you might as well tell the truth, because (a) I don’t really give a toss, and (b) probably nobody else does either.

Tony

Well, you know, I don’t care where you’ve been either. It’s not remotely relevant to this discussion, so I don’t know why you raised it. Still, Tony, before I reply to your disinterested question, could you confirm that:

a) You equate the arrival of Pakistanis and Indians in the UK with a Nazi invasion.

b) Their arrival is having the same impact on ‘indigenous’ people as the genocides committed against the ‘indigenous peoples’ of North America and Australia.

Or not. Thanks.

look, it doesn’t matter, have a beer.

a) I don’t equate the arrival of Pakistanis and Indians in the UK with a Nazi invasion.

b) I don’t think their arrival is having the same impact on ‘indigenous’ people as the genocides committed against the ‘indigenous peoples’ of North America and Australia.

c) I don’t normally drink alcohol on Thursday evenings and on Friday not until after 5pm

Now will you answer the question.

If you had been in Afghanistan in 2007, then you would have been there at the same time as someone I know, and he is not a soldier, tourist, hippy and he doesn’t work for an intelligence agency.

Your reluctance to answer, seems to demonstrate you have something to hide.

I would of course understand if you were a black skinned Muslim, because you’d be worried about the SWAT team coming round.

There is no way the guy I know would have got away with what he did in 2007, if he had looked like Osama Bin Laden. As he looks like an American Marine he was O.K., but judging from his photos and the reaction he got when he returned to the UK rather upset.

Tony

“However, I can fully appreciate how many indigenous people feel when their local community is totally overwhelmed, by a completely different culture, without them having any means whatsoever to protect themselves from such invasion.

It has happenned to the indigenous Native American, and the indigenous Native Aborigini, and the indigenous Native Oldhamer.”

“White people were the largest ethnic group in Oldham, making up around 84.4 % of the Borough’s population.”

2001 census http://www.oldham.gov.uk/ethnic-groups-in-oldham.pdf

The statistics belie the reality. Its neither the fault of the immigrants who were encouraged in their thousands to move to Oldham, only to find the work was no longer there (as it had in fact moved to India and China), nor the indigenous. The real problem is mass unemployment, together with an almost total lack of integration. This happenned exceedingly quickly. Up until the end of the 70′s Oldham was over 99% white. Now entire areas are totally asian – and virtual no-go areas for whites.

http://www.oldhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/1050513_our_primary_concern

Extract

Our primary concern

Exclusive by Stuart Greer

May 21, 2008

STARTLING new figures reveal that Oldham appears to be moving backwards in its efforts to improve community cohesion among the borough’s youngest citizens.

The statistics obtained by the Advertiser show that more local primary schools than ever are now divided along racial lines ?” with a total of seven schools made up entirely of children from ethnic backgrounds, and many more dominated by pupils of either white or Asian heritage.

It means thousands of children are growing up having little contact with children from different ethnic backgrounds. The figures re-ignite the debate about what needs to be done to reverse racial division in our community ?” a key cause of previous unrest.

David Ritchie’s 2002 report into past disturbances found that in 17 borough primary schools ethnic minority children made up 80 per cent of pupils ?” and in 13 of these it was at least 90 per cent.

In six secondary schools, ethnic minority children accounted for less than five per cent of the school population, while in two others they were mainly youngsters from ethnic backgrounds.

Today, primary schools including Alexandra Park, Burnley Brow, Horton Mill Infant, Nursery and Junior, Westwood, Greenhill Primary, Werneth Infant and Nursery and St Hilda’s C.E do not have a single white pupil on the roll.

Secondary schools continue to slide towards monoculturalism with, as one example, 98.5 per cent of Grange’s pupils from Bangladeshi, Pakistani or Indian heritage ?” in the 80s this figure was around 10 per cent.”

Tony

‘Look, just as an example, here’s the title of a Times article from 1977:

Caroline Moorehead (18 April 1977). “An exclusive club, perhaps without power, but certainly with influence: The Bilderberg group”. The Times.’

Angrysoba- the date of this article is interesting. The leading light in Bilderberg until 1976 was Prince Bernhardt of the Netherlands. However in 1976 the Lockheed bribes scandal broke, and Bernhardt was implicated in it. As a consequence, his Bilberberg links could no longer be ignored, and the group for the first time attracted some press attention, most of it negative. With it’s secrecy blown, Bilderberg didn’t meet in 1976 at all-and there were probably some members who, seeking to cover their tracks, wanted it wound up entirely.

The Group reconvened again in April 1977 (note the date of Moorehead’s article) and the Torquay session that year attracted some media interest as a result, espcially in the UK, where the event was hosted.

My take on Bilderberg is that, from the late 70s until the end of the Cold War, Bilderberg was nothing more than a rich man’s talking shop. For example, in the late 70s/early 80s two of the most prominent attendees from the UK were Lords Home and George-Brown; windbaggery personified!).

However, the fact remains that, for the first 20 years of it’s existence , Bilberberg was very influential in setting Europe on an ‘Atlanticist’ path-and this influence remained almost completely hidden from European electorates. There is also cicumstantial evidence to suggest that, since the early 90s, it has once again become highly influential, as the new ‘Euro-Atlantic structures’ ie NATO & the EU, have expanded their spheres of influence.

BTW I wouldn’t trust what Chip Berlet says about Bilderberg, or almost anything else. Daniel Brandt at Namebase is right on the money in labelling him an extremely slippery customer.

Geez. I need a new mouse. The scroll button caught fire from overuse of skipping past Neo Joseph and his Zionist apologist bile.

Mark, thanks for that. I might look a little more into the subject.

Is this the same Mark who I was discussing Koestler and Hilberg etc… with on the “Angrysoba Doesn’t Like This Blog” thread?

If it is, I wonder what your take on the guy who came in for round two of Koestler and was swinging in defence of Ernst Zundel?

David Manning “was at Blair’s side throughout the build-up to the Iraq war & was sent to Washington (as British Ambassador) soon after the Iraq invasion in 2003 (Manning is also an ex British Ambassador to Israel).

The Times: November 16, 2008

Tony Blair’s former Iraq aide (Manning) joins defence giant (Lockheed Martin)

http://tinyurl.com/ya37fbf

Manning has also taken a job on the advisory board of Hakluyt, a private intelligence firm partly staffed by former MI6 officers. (Hakluyt was set up by former MI6 agents in 1995).

Manning also works as a part-time adviser to princes William and Harry….

The system stinks…..

The Bilderberg group is an interest group. There are many. Big deal.

They meet in secret because they attract the attention of crazy people.

‘They meet in secret because they attract the attention of crazy people.’

Meeting in secret also means Bilderberg provides a perfect platform for insider dealing. Given that crooks like Prince Bernhardt of the Netherlands, and Conrad (‘Lord’) Black have been prominent attendees in the past, that’s another possibility anyone with an open mind should consider.

Angrysoba- yes I’m the same Mark. Life is too short for me to trawl thru another comments thread and identify the person you’re referring to. However I’ll accept that Koestler’s Khazar origins thesis is open to misuse by anti semites- something he was aware of, and specifically warned against in the appendix to the paperback edition of ‘The Thirteenth Tribe’ that I read 30 years ago.