Knowing Ghana – or the Gold Coast as it was originally – it always has been the back end of beyond ever since Nkrumah started its decline.

Did you eat a Banana in Ghana?

Ahoy there! Be well. Stay safe.

Can anyone think of a privatisation which made things better for customers, workers, or indeed for the country as a whole?

“Europe snow now here”

Hope you took your kellywellys.

Glad to know you got there OK, Craig. Have a good time, and return soon.

Now there’s a man with telegram technique. That’s what comes of being an ambassador, I suppose…

Glenn, I have seen privatizations that worked in other countries; but not British ones. As a matter of fact many years ago I was lead consultant on several privatization projects over here.

The problem with the UK is that too often the privatized units were structured in a way that suited cronies who knew how to work (milk) the system, rather than quality managers who knew how to run it. Take British Rail – One couldn’t have structured the privatization it in a stupider way if your objective was to run an efficient rail service. In case I am accused of being a conspiracy theorist, I just pose the question – Why is it that the privatization of British Rail resulted in higher fares, poorer service, and bigger government subsidies that before.

If the internet won’t work, just concentrate on doing good and tell us about it afterwards. Good luck!

Hi Roderick,

the last couple of days weren’t typical of this site; there haven’t been insults flying about today.

I saw a great parody privatisation advertisment – a nuclear reactor dome, with a big crack in the top and a plume of smoke coming out, captioned “Now we can all share in British Nuclear Fuels”.

Roderick: I’m sure it works in some instances, I’m just pushed to think where it might work offhand with core utilities. Governments should run utilities, it seems to me, because I’d rather have an elected person finally responsible for problems that occur, instead of some corporate CEO who only cares about making million in the next couple of years, regardless of the good it does the customers and the company.

We know why utilities were privatised, so that a the well-heeled could make a nice little earner off ludicrously undervalued public offerings (that “we underestimated the appeal” line was trotted out dozens of times by the Tories), while the eventual winners would be the major investors.

What ticks me off as much as anything, is that we used to have civil servants running the water board, electricity provisions and so on, and a fairly decent job they did for a comfortable living. But once privatised, the chairperson, sorry, new CEO was suddenly an immensely important individual, holding sway over a multi-billion pound enterprise, and of course needed commensurate pay and bonuses. So a comfortable living for a competent civil servant became a get-rich-quick scheme making tens of millions a year.

We can see why – for instance – we only have 8 days worth of gas reserves. What CEO would want to tie up 6 months’ worth of income in having 6 months of reserves? That would hurt profits, and that is all they care about. Who wants to pay for a 5-year plan, when the CEO will be elsewhere, on his luxury yacht long before then? And if the CEO _did_ want to pay for reserves/ 5-year plans, the shareholders would substitute him for someone who understood the need for immediate returns on investment. It’s not the individual people who are the problem, it’s the very notion of maximising profits from public infrastructure by privitising.

A truly sad result is that British core infrastructure, built up with a couple of hundred years of taxpayer investment in some cases, has been flogged off at bargain-basement prices largely to foreign investors. And they don’t care a fig about Britain, its people, or what we think of the service they provide.

Craig I can definitely sympathise…. For the last year my internet connection has been 18Kb/sec, but at least mine is stable… Unless the power cuts =P

I thought we had that microwave thingy on top of the office ??

I know an Ex-policeman who is from Ghana, he has two wives. Do you know him?

I wish I had two wives.

While it’s nice and quiet, I thought I’d post this:

— GENERAL WARNING —

In the recent, very heated discussions, various people have accused various others of being paid trolls, ‘shills’, or posting on behalf of ‘black ops’, etc. I have no way of knowing if this really happens; let’s assume that it does.

It seems to me that it is VITAL to NOT accuse people of being paid trolls. Firstly, it makes the accuser look paranoid. Secondly, remember that such people can post either way. You have no way of knowing if I’m trolling, and I don’t know if you are; people who’s opinion you hope to change will just be made to feel alienated if they are accused of being part of a conspiracy.

Consider this also. ‘John’, who believes a mainstream fallacy, is following a discussion between ‘Jim’ and a paid troll, whom I shall call ‘Troll’. ‘Troll’ writes things that ‘John’ innocently believes, ‘cos he saw them on telly. Then ‘Jim’ calls ‘Troll’ a troll. To ‘John’, it seems that ‘Troll’ has been maligned, and that ‘Jim’ is paranoid.

It’s a minefield, isn’t it? But take heart. There IS truth, and sensible, rational argument converges upon it, though not always as quickly as we might wish. This is why I made such efforts to calm things down.

So don’t let your comments become personal. Site original sources. And if you’re ever feeling wound up, take a breather rather than make a mistake.

I just finished the Catholic Orangemen of Togo – brilliant! Keep ‘em coming!

I really want to read Murder in Samarkand, but a) I am broke and b) even if I had cash I couldn’t buy it where I am now….

Any kind soul care to email me a PDF copy?

PS, it’s

neilandemmabarker@gmail.com

Many thanks

Neil, you can download it here:

http://tenpercent.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/catholic-orangemen-of-togo.pdf

Neil: sorry, wrong book!

It’s been covered here by Craig before, but during the commercial break, I suggest everyone pops off to The Register to read this excellent article about the stoking of an irrational fear of terrorism. Bloody spot-on, very much from the Bruce Schneier school of thought.

“Trouser-bomb clown attacks – how much should we laugh?”

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/08/mutallab_comment/

Does Craig really mean 3Kbps? I thought mine was bad enough. A test just now – Download Speed 2.35Mbps Upload Speed 0.74Mbps – and I pay BT TotalCon for up to 8Mbps.

3Kbps is a dial-up modem sort of speed, though slow even for that.

I get 3Mbps which is quite fast enough for me, but then I don’t often download huge files. I download Linux LiveCD images (600 megabyte or so); one of those takes well under an hour.

Low speeds handle text OK.

Craig wrote ‘intermittent connection’, so he probably kept his post short so that it would transmit between failures!

Craig did say “3kbps (sic)” – which of course is vastly worse than 3kBps – 8 times worse, in fact. bps = bits per second, Bps= Bytes per second. 8 bits to a Byte. So loading a very modest 10KB page, at 3kbps, would take about half a minute. Uggh!

Jon,

thanks for The Register article. A good laugh.

I hope you are in good spirits Craig. While Craig is temporarily absent I would urge everyone to read this:

‘Harvard law professor Cass Sunstein, Obama’s appointee to head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, outlined a plan for the government to infiltrate conspiracy groups in order to undermine them via postings on chat rooms and social networks, as well as real meetings, according to a recently uncovered article Sunstein wrote for the Journal of Political Philosophy.

As we have often warned, chat rooms, social networks and particularly article comment sections are routinely “gamed” by trolls, many of whom pose as numerous different people in order to create a fake consensus, who attempt to debunk whatever information is being discussed, no matter how credible and well documented. We have seen this on our own websites for years and although some of those individuals were acting of their own accord, a significant number appeared to be working in shifts, routinely posting the same talking points over and over again.

It is a firmly established fact that the military-industrial complex which also owns the corporate media networks in the United States has numerous programs aimed at infiltrating prominent Internet sites and spreading propaganda to counter the truth about the misdeeds of the government and the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

In 2006 CENTCOM, the United States Central Command, announced that a team of employees would be hired to engage “bloggers who are posting inaccurate or untrue information, as well as bloggers who are posting incomplete information,” about the so-called war on terror.

In May 2008, it was revealed that the Pentagon was expanding “Information Operations” on the Internet by setting up fake foreign news websites, designed to look like independent media sources but in reality carrying direct military propaganda.

Countries like Israel have also admitted to creating an army of online trolls whose job it is to infiltrate anti-war websites and act as apologists for the Zionist state’s war crimes.

In January last year, the US Air Force announced a “counter-blog” response plan aimed at fielding and reacting to material from bloggers who have “negative opinions about the US government and the Air Force.”

The plan, created by the public affairs arm of the Air Force, includes a detailed twelve-point “counter blogging” flow-chart that dictates how officers should tackle what are described as “trolls,” “ragers,” and “misguided” online writers.

New revelations highlight the fact that the Obama administration is deliberately targeting “conspiracy groups” as part of a Cointelpro style effort to silence what have become the government’s most vociferous and influential critics.

A d v e r t i s e m e n t

In a 2008 article published in the Journal of Political Philosophy, Obama information czar Cass Sunstein outlined a plan for the government to stealthily infiltrate groups that pose alternative theories on historical events via “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine” those groups.

The aim of the program would be to “(break) up the hard core of extremists who supply conspiracy theories,” wrote Sunstein, with particular reference to 9/11 truth organizations.

Sunstein pointed out that simply having people in government refute conspiracy theories wouldn’t work because they are inherently untrustworthy, making it necessary to “Enlist nongovernmental officials in the effort to rebut the theories. It might ensure that credible independent experts offer the rebuttal, rather than government officials themselves. There is a tradeoff between credibility and control, however. The price of credibility is that government cannot be seen to control the independent experts,” he wrote.

“Put into English, what Sunstein is proposing is government infiltration of groups opposing prevailing policy,” writes Marc Estrin.

“It’s easy to destroy groups with “cognitive diversity.” You just take up meeting time with arguments to the point where people don’t come back. You make protest signs which alienate 90% of colleagues. You demand revolutionary violence from pacifist groups.”

This is what Sunstein is advocating when he writes of the need to infiltrate conspiracy groups and sow seeds of distrust amongst members in order to stifle the number of new recruits. This is classic “provocateur” style infiltration that came to the fore during the Cointelpro years, an FBI program from 1956-1971 that was focused around disrupting, marginalizing and neutralizing political dissidents.

“Sunstein argued that “government might undertake (legal) tactics for breaking up the tight cognitive clusters of extremist theories.” He suggested that “government agents (and their allies) might enter chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine percolating conspiracy theories by raising doubts about their factual premises, causal logic or implications for political action,” reports Raw Story.

Sunstein has also called for making websites liable for comments posted in response to articles. His book, On Rumors: How Falsehoods Spread, Why We Believe Them, What Can Be Done, was criticized by some as “a blueprint for online censorship.”

The Infowars office has been visited on numerous occasions by the FBI as a result of people posting violent comments in response to articles. Since the government now employs people to post such comments in an attempt to undermine conspiracy websites, if a law were passed making websites accountable, Sunstein’s program would allow the government to obliterate such sites from the web merely by having their own hired goons post threats against public figures.

The fact that the government is being forced to hire armies of trolls in an effort to silence the truth shows how worried they are about the effect we are having in waking up millions of people to their tyranny.’

And then read this:

‘”The controversy surrounding White House information czar and Harvard Professor Cass Sunstein’s blueprint for the government to infiltrate political activist groups has deepened, with the revelation that in the same 2008 dossier he also called for the government to tax or even ban outright political opinions of which it disapproved.

Sunstein was appointed by President Obama to head up the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, an agency within the Executive Office of the President.

On page 14 of Sunstein’s January 2008 white paper entitled “Conspiracy Theories,” the man who is now Obama’s head of information technology in the White House proposed that each of the following measures “will have a place under imaginable conditions” according to the strategy detailed in the essay.

1) Government might ban conspiracy theorizing.

2) Government might impose some kind of tax, financial or otherwise, on those who disseminate such theories.

That’s right, Obama’s information czar wants to tax or ban outright, as in make illegal, political opinions that the government doesn’t approve of. To where would this be extended? A tax or a shut down order on newspapers that print stories critical of our illustrious leaders?

And what does Sunstein define as “conspiracy theories” that should potentially be taxed or outlawed by the government? Opinions held by the majority of Americans, no less.

The notion that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone in killing JFK, a view shared by the vast majority of Americans in every major poll over the last ten years, is an example of a “conspiracy theory” that the federal government should consider censoring, according to Sunstein.

Sunstein also cites the belief that “global warming is a deliberate fraud” as another marginal conspiracy theory to be countered by government action. In reality, the majority of Americans now believe that the man-made explanation of global warming is not true, and that global warming is natural, according to the latest polls.

But Sunstein saves his most ludicrous example until last. On page 5 he characterizes as “false and dangerous” the idea that exposure to sunlight is healthy, despite the fact that top medical experts agree prolonged exposure to sunlight reduces the risk of developing certain cancers.

To claim that encouraging people to get out in the sun is to peddle a dangerous conspiracy theory is like saying that promoting the breathing of fresh air is also a thought crime. One can only presume that Sunstein is deliberately framing the debate by going to such absurd extremes so as to make any belief whatsoever into a conspiracy theory unless it’s specifically approved by the kind of government thought police system he is pushing for.

Despite highlighting the fact that repressive societies go hand in hand with an increase in “conspiracy theories,” Sunstein’s ‘solution’ to stamp out such thought crimes is to ban free speech, fulfilling the precise characteristic of the “repressive society” he warns against elsewhere in the paper.

“We could imagine circumstances in which a conspiracy theory became so pervasive, and so dangerous, that censorship would be thinkable,” he writes on page 20. Remember that Sunstein is not just talking about censoring Holocaust denial or anything that’s even debatable in the context of free speech, he’s talking about widely accepted beliefs shared by the majority of Americans but ones viewed as distasteful by the government, which would seek to either marginalize by means of taxation or outright censor such views.

No surprise therefore that Sunstein has called for re-writing the First Amendment as well as advocating Internet censorship and even proposing that Americans should celebrate tax day and be thankful that the state takes a huge chunk of their income.

The government has made it clear that growing suspicion towards authority is a direct threat to their political agenda and indeed Sunstein admits this on page 3 of his paper.

That is why they are now engaging in full on information warfare in an effort to undermine, disrupt and eventually outlaw organized peaceful resistance to their growing tyranny.”

(source: Paul Joseph Watson

Prison Planet.com

Thursday, January 14, 2010)’

It looks like they are all crawling out of the woodwork and into the sunlight now. Don’t be shy with the sunscreen little kiddies…

“Sunstein has also called for making websites liable for comments posted in response to articles”

They’re furious that they can’t (yet anyway) control the internet. They have the MSM pretty much wrapped up. You may have seen the 2009 Press Freedom Index by Reporters Without Borders:

http://www.rsf.org/en-classement1003-2009.html

Perhaps it will soon be illegal to claim that Nero was responsible for the burning of Rome in 64 AD, or that Iraq had WMD.

or perhaps not.

The chances of the US First Amendment being altered as called for by this Sunstein are as close to zero as anything could get. You can always find some crackpot who’s written up some whacked-out proposals which normal people would quite rightly ignore. And ignored they would be, but “Prison Planet” (home of that shameless publicity-hound, the bandwagon-hopping liar Alex Jones) will always find a place for it.

Alex Jones is betting that nearly everyone holds one “conspiracy theory” or another to be true. So compile every one of them into a big mega-conspiracy, and you should be a AJ follower/supporter…. right? Well, it isn’t working out as well as he’d hoped, but he’s still got a quite undue following. He can rope in the right-wing with tales of how guns n’ freedom are about to be snatched from them, the left wing with tales of a right-wing takeover (the 2008 elections were apparently about to be cancelled, etc.), the racists with his Big Scary “Obama Deception” video which packs in more lies per minute, particularly in the second half, that one would believe possible.

AJ also expects anyone who doubts Official Truths to find his screwy world-view to be their natural home. Don’t believe the government version of “9/11″ ? Welcome aboard! Bought into the corporate line that global climate change is a hoax? Come on in! Think Obama’s a manchurian candidate, a hard-core commie with terrorist connections? You’ve found your place!

Some of Jones’s points are definitely worth considering, but I’d consider looking at a more balanced source before concluding anything. You have to admire his ability to glide so smoothly between Bush conspiracies to Obama conspiracies, even before the latter had finished his acceptance speech.

Of course, it’s topped off with the claim that if one _doesn’t_ buy into his shameless conspiracy theorising, then clearly that person is working on the dark side too!

@Clark

I note the post by Jaded, later than yours, which makes some of the points which are in my mind, but it’s a bit lengthy – I’m one of those people who just scrolls past long posts (please, commenters, serve the community by giving a precis of what you want to cite, then supply a link for any who might want more detail).

Anyway, Clark, it’s a mistake to suppose that trolls are stupid – the content they drop on sites like this is contrived to appear vacant and stupid in order to present an aggravating and appealingly easy target, and to tempt us to address these people instead of each other. When (a million years ago) I played rugby, one of my occasional intructions to the team was to ‘provoke an inappropriate response’. This meant to attack the physical side of the game with a bit more gusto than was strictly necessary (nice euphemism, huh?) in order to get the other team to lose the place, because I had a feeling that they weren’t very mature and would do just that. It probably looked very vulgar and primitive, but in fact it was coldly and intellectually calculated, and often worked. Confident and mature players don’t respond to such provocation.

In addition, the slanging matches which we see taking place may not be all they seem. One person can use two aliases, or collude with a friend, to present the appearance of an ill-natured quarrel, when in fact there is only a soliloquy.

The advice repeatedly offered by dreolin (sp?) is best: if some poster contributes only one or two sentences of abuse (usually including favourite words like ‘moron’ and ‘nutjob’) ignore them and do not respond in any way. Eschew the inappropriate response – continue the discussion with those who wish to discuss.

But we’re not, so we can smile.

My above at 4:09 PM was a response to Glenn, not Vronsky. Sorry.

Original article cited in Jaded’s comment:

Conspiracy Theories: Causes and Cures*

Cass R. Sunstein, Adrian Vermeule

Journal of Political Philosophy

Volume 17, Issue 2 , Pages202 – 227

© 2009 Blackwell Publishing Ltd.

I haven’t found a downloadable copy yet.

dreoilin: I’m trying to avoid the ‘poisoning the well’ fallacy, but Alex Jones makes it so difficult to avoid!

“Conspiracy Theories: Causes and Cures”

Causes: Governments offering explanations for events that appear not to address all the evidence.

Cures: Having proper public enquiries into said events (rather as they did with Clinton’s extramarital affairs, which weren’t even illegal).

Vronsky,

I agree.

GLENN, from comments such as your shrewd observation “What CEO would want to tie up 6 months’ worth of income in having 6 months of reserves?” I can tell that you have expertise in this subject; so I have to be careful in my response. Fortunately I find little in what you have said that I would disagree with anyway. Core utilities are by definition always monopolies. After all, it would not make sense to plant 25 competing pipelines under the road, so that one could have real competition in gas deliveries. Public ownership of core utilities does make sense, particularly where it is at the more decentralized municipal level rather than at the centralized State level. After all municipally owned utilities still have an element of competition in them, since one can benchmark their results across the UK to see who is doing the best job (and why).

However, what about the major gas trunk lines? They too are likely to be monopolies. But should they be nationalized, or regulated private utility companies? At first blush one tends to think nationalized, except that my own experience tells me different.

30 years ago as financial accounting manager, I headed up corporate accounting for Canada’s then largest Canadian owned Oil & Gas Company (subsequently split up into separate companies such as Husky Oil, Novachem, Trans Canada Pipe, etc). One of our business units was the huge regulated “Alberta Gas Trunk Line” division. What I saw was that if properly regulated private utilities can work well for their customers, even though they are monopolies. But the key is ?” they have to be properly regulated.

If I may boast (seeing as how I have had the hell knocked out of me with slanders for 20 years), one of the things I did is that I designed and produced an annual report for Alberta Gas Trunk Line that was awarded the Financial Post Award for the best Utility Company reporting in Canada.

I would like to thank RUTH for her gutsy comment a few days ago. I have experienced many similar incidents ?” it is how they operate (They have psychologists on staff, and I suspect a few psychopaths as well). You have to experience it to understand just quite how evil these animals are.

Finally may I say that I do agree with CLARK “don’t let your comments become personal. Site original sources” I do try to back up any unusual statements made by referring to sources of corroboration (which can often be found on the wiki). My horrible issue is a very emotional area for me and my family, but I make every attempt to try and look at it from a 3rd parties’ perspective. I hope that I have not personally attacked anyone. Honest critisism is fine. However, may I just say that for those who must make contentious personal attack statements against other commentators, it’s best not do it from anonymity ?” but to put one’s name and contact details behind it as I do.

“Alex Jones makes it so difficult to avoid”

– glenn

Sure, but it’s hard not to believe that he’s sincere about the stuff that agitates him. I’ve seen him haranguing his nemesis, the Bilderberg guests. Maybe he’s addicted to conspiracies. Maybe he’s a wee bit mental. He uses up a hell of a lot of energy on-air.

Clark:

You can find a PDF of the paper here: {papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585}

I can’t help but think that by writing such a paper, Sunstein will have helped create more conspiracy theories than he will debunk =P

All:

Haven’t heard too much said about the recent Scott Ritter news.

{thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0114101ritter1.html}

{foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583027,00.html}

I don’t really know what to make of it. It seems strange that he could be so ridiculously stupid, but it also sounds like there is some pretty damning evidence. I’m curious to know more.

Roderick,

some day, when I have the time, I will take a thorough look at your wiki article. I expect that there is little I can do to help beyond becoming informed.

There are those who think he’s the ‘controlled opposition’. Probably best not to take him too seriously. But the comments on his site can be a hoot.

I thought at first that “Cass Sunstein” sounded like a joke. But he really exists. Here’s a website for downloading his paper:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585

Background wiki marticle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein#Conspiracy_Theories

CheebaCow,

thanks for the PDF, which I’ve saved.

CLARK, thank you. When you do you will find that there is a substantial body of documentary evidence (letters attached to the wiki) to back up some of my statements. Chapter 4 of the wiki (can be viewed by clicking on table of contents in the left hand margin – 4. government cover-up conspiracy – UK & Canada) summarizes some of the items of cover-up together with where the sources of proof are. There is actually much more that isn’t on the wiki.

Mr. Russell – I’ve read through some of your so-called “documentary evidence.” I’m at a real loss here. Could you please point out your best two pieces of evidence that proves this torture that is being committed against you. (And, as you should know, a marginal note stating “GOVERNMENT NOT HELPFUL = COVER-UP CONSPIRACY” is not evidence).

CheebaCow: Scott Ritter is a pedophile who harbored irrational hatred for the Bush administration, even to the point of entertaining kooky 911 conspiracies.

Oh bother. Larry, how you can say anyone “is” anything, without any proof or backup or sense, is beyond me (and this is surely slanderous). Are you being briefed by men in raincoats going “pssst?”. Why should anyone keep listening to you?

It’s interesting, and noticeable that the tone on anti-war sites is quite sombre if discussing this, with very few voices shouting ‘fit-up’ until further evidence. You’re at the extremes, Larry. It discredits you.

Conspiracy Theories That Turned Out To Be True

http://tinyurl.com/yz8j6br

And personally, I don’t believe for a minute that Scott Ritter is a paedophile. Innocent until proven guilty, remember? And what on earth his sex life has to do with his ‘hatred of the Bush administration’ or otherwise, I cannot see. Argh. Larry, am I wrong? Are you someone who just parrots lines without any true curiosity and/or conviction? Are you having fun making mischief? What are we all doing on this board if it’s not to support positive enquiry and spirited solutions?

Ahem.

technicolour, have you read the details of his past transgressions?

If it were just a matter of this particular recent situation, I would agree with you.

It appears that this asshole can’t keep himself away from teenage girls.

technicolour, if I were serving on a jury, I would of course presume him to be innocent. But I’m not sitting on a jury.

I wasn’t the one who brought him up.

But Larry, you could be serving on a jury.

Glenn Greenwald discussing Cass Sunstein’s paper in Salon.com:

http://tinyurl.com/yde4ug8

brings up some fascinating stuff.

Roderick: Thanks for your comments on private industries. I’m sure some do a reasonable job, and it is true that nationalised industries often suffer from poor management and workers. But poor management is not unknown in private industries by any means, but even if they are run very well, who benefits? Shareholders and CEOs/ top management layers. The profits and benefits do not help the country, because the majority of the profits are going to go to people who don’t pay tax or hold their money in the country concerned. These are largely foreign institutions and those holding off-shore accounts. The workers certainly don’t benefit – as a rule, wages and conditions go down once privitisation takes place. The most common result is mass redundancy at the outset.

Customers are unlikely to benefit under where the price is set as high as the market will stand. Competition is always hailed as a great benefit to customers, but corporations tend to amalgamate – see the mergers and acquisition fever particularly since the early ’90s. When only a handful of mega-corporations exist, you do not see them competing so much as getting down to the real business of screwing the customers.

Of course, I’m talking about utilities here. There is no reason Singapore investors should be profiting when, say, customers of Yorkshire Water get a 20% above-inflation rise year on year, while the only local benefit is a CEO on millions annually. All the private company will care about is how to maximise profits as quickly as possible, and providing the minimum service to which they are legally obliged as cheaply as possible.

Nobody is calling for the fire department or the police to be privitised for very obvious reasons. They are a public necessity and a monopoly, as with water, gas, electricity, rail and buses. It makes no sense to grant a company the rights to exploit that monopoly for profit unless that is one’s philosophy bordering on religious belief.

———-

Funny that Scott Ritter was the republican poster-boy when it looked like he was going to report what they wanted to hear from Iraq. Same with Blix for that matter. Ritter was (and afaik, is) a republican himself. How disgustingly typical that he should be labelled a sex offender etc. the moment he falls out of favour.

(For the record, Ritter was using a general chat room – as people often do – when a girl said she was in trouble in MacDonalds, being pursued by a couple of men. This happened to be just down the street and Ritter, being an ex-marine, put on his boots and rushed down to help. There was no 15-year old girl in trouble, but there were two FBI agents who arrested him because – wait for it – he was going to meet an under-age girl. The case was thrown out, of course, but it allows those with no scruples to claim – to this day – that Ritter is a child molester.)

I think there are a couple of people who post here just to stop us from talking to each other. We all know who they are so I’m not going to name them.

If we spend all our time responding to them, they have wan, because they have stopped us from taling to each other which would have resulted in the exchange of ideas which could result in us working togeather.

So lets just ignore them and stop respond to each other instead.

I mean start responding to each other.

“How disgustingly typical that he should be labelled a sex offender etc. the moment he falls out of favour.”

I suppose his behaviour had nothing to do with it…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8460340.stm

[This is a clumsy medium for attrbutng things properly, I'm sorry]

“The advice repeatedly offered by dreolin (sp?) is best: if some poster contributes only one or two sentences of abuse (usually including favourite words like ‘moron’ and ‘nutjob’) ignore them and do not respond in any way. Eschew the inappropriate response – continue the discussion with those who wish to discuss”.

There’s an ancient Usenet saying that applies (quoted here already, I think) :- “Don’t feed the trolls”.

Some people are attention-vampires. Maybe they’re True Believers (in something), maybe they’re being paid, maybe they’re just silly people, doesn’t matter. The result’s the same.

Somebody else talked about ‘cold calculated operations’ – again, doesn’t matter, sheer stupidity can work too. Just say something really obviously wrong and people will rush to correct you (chorus: “Oh no they won’t”).

Also, there seem to be huge numbers of people Out There who appear to take pleasure in pointless malignancy; stirring things up, disrupting conversations, upsetting people, for no particular good reason at all. Anybody else here familiar with usenet ? I think they’ll know what I mean. “It’s always September”.

“I think there are a couple of people who post here just to stop us from talking to each other”.

It could be. I seem to be championing stupidity, this evening. Maybe it’s the beer ?

*Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

*But sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.

But, again, whatever, the point’s as you say (Arsalan ?), and maybe it all takes care of itself in the long run; those that want to talk with each other learn how to avoid the distractions and do so.

Conspiracy ? Cock up ? It’s probably a conspiracy to cock up a conspiracy to cock up. Or worse.

It’s a pity if we’re going to have to cross ourselves and spit whenever Scott Ritter’s name is mentioned, he seemed to have some things to say.

“For the record, Ritter was using a general chat room – as people often do – when a girl said she was in trouble in MacDonalds, being pursued by a couple of men.”

Glenn, are you really that stupid? That’s just not how it happened. And what was it this time? Did his webcam *accidentally* turn on for a scene of him spanking one out while being watched by someone he thought was a teenage girl?

It would be quite hilarious if the video of this encounter ever gets leaked. How would you twist the facts then, Glenn?

TO LARRY from St. Louis ?” HERE IS AN OUTLINE OF TORTURE FOR YOU: AND LARRY PLEASE TELL US WHO DO YOU REALLY REPRESENT?

You have asked me to point out why I define all that my family has been put through as torture.

Though it hardly does it justice, below is a summary of what we have gone through for many years. It fully complies with the definition of torture in the UN & EU Codes.

Then go to The Wiki ?” Go to the left hand margin, Table of Contents. Then click on 5. Zerzetsen Death Threats / Psychological Torture. You will see a list of various specific threats, and you will note that many of them are witnessed. See for yourself. Then click on 2. Zerzetsen Torture ?” A Serious Human Rights Abuse to see why this is defined as a serious human rights abuse, and a process of torture that has gone on for many years. As you will note it meets the legal definition of torture.

I would rather have spent 6 months being physically tortured in a foreign jail, knowing that my family were safe at home, than have 10 years at home knowing that my family were constantly under threat of murder and that the MI5/6 and CSIS intelligence services are involved.

So below is a brief summary of what my wife and I have been put through.

####################

What it is like to be a victim of zerzetsen?

In my families case it all started with a professionally executed defamation / slander job in Vancouver, Canada after I decided to resign as Group Controller of Grosvenor International. At this time, I had no idea what was going on or why it was happening, since I have never done anything wrong. Friends and head-hunters who once eagerly sought after me for senior positions, now avoided me. I applied for thousands of jobs to no avail. I had become unemployable. Gradually I became ostracised from all my friends and from the community.

What effect did this have on my family? Well we began to run out of money, and we were bringing up 3 children. We had to sell our house (in West Vancouver) and rent, use up all our savings and investments, sell both our cars. We have continued to survive because some relatives stepped in to help. The intelligence services plan was to break my family up and force my wife and I out onto the street. This is the zerzetsen approach developed by the former East German secret police to pressure dissidents and used by CSIS in Canada, and MI5/6 in UK ?” but I didn’t know that then.

Then the tactic changed. We began to get many hundreds of telephone calls with no one on the other end of the line. Yet people who genuinely phoned me could not get through, but were answered by shrieking fax tones. Stalkers began to follow us around quite openly. We were clearly under surveillance. People in cars staked out the house, and sometimes waited right in our driveway. Street Theatre acts were put on for us (a known intimidation tactic where they act out threats). Telephone clearly being tapped and mail interfered with. My computer going haywire with threats appearing on its screen. We feared for our lives; Yet not one word was spoken to us ?” This is the zerzetsen, though I didn’t know it at the time. One of the advantages of this technique to MI5/6, CSIS is that it is designed to mirror the complaints a paranoid would make, except that I have plenty of witnesses to corroborate.

Thinking it was just West Vancouver and Canada, I fled to the UK. The threats on my family got worse. The old implied threats continued, but now my children and I were getting death threat calls (some recorded) and threats from people in the street, our apartment was smashed into, and shots were fired at my son (in front of an independent witness) and at myself. Now outside witnesses were also threatened. One woman was sexually harassed and threatened twice in 24 hours. Threats of violence or death were implied heavily against my children. Cars and motorbikes were run at me at high speed and right up onto the sidewalk. A death threat was made in the name of the royal family (in view of the cover-up, and the involvement of MI5/6, I felt this threat was possibly genuine). We reported the crimes (numerous times) and each time it was covered up. Often the police start being honest; then they get the message ?” cover-it-up. Police cars fired firecrackers under my bedroom window in the middle of the night and set their sirens off, hoods pointed guns at me in the street, and crowding and escorting me as I walk.

In 2006 we returned to Calgary and there have been a number of threats here though less so than before. For example, people moved in to the apartment block and started harassing us, my daughter was threatened in the street, and much more. Recently I have had extensive computer interference (which I can prove), some open surveillance, and my daughter has had a large nail driven into the same tire on her car three times in one month (Nov 2009).

Imagine what my wife has had to deal with bringing up our three children though this. For 10 years she has had to live with the knowledge that her children have been under constant threat of murder by very powerful people, and that the very people who should be protecting you (government) are the persecutors and are covering-it-up. Not surprisingly my wife has developed some very serious health issues.

#######################

And then Larry you enquired into the cover-up leaving the false impression to readers of this blog that I have based my case of cover up on just one small email (your quote of “government unhelpful = cover-up conspiracy”) when in fact anyone who chooses to review the Wiki (See table of Contents on left hand margin and click on: “4. government cover-up conspiracy ?” UK & Canada) – can see for themselves that I base my accusations of cover-up on numerous items of evidence. Bloggers can go to the wiki and see for themselves. So why Larry are you misleading people; what’s your agenda (or can I guess)? Who is your employer, or who was your last employer?

Larry ?” I posted a little comment earlier on today that was aimed at you, though I was too polite to say so. You clearly have an agenda. That’s fine, but don’t hide behind anonymity, let’s have your contact details.

Regarding Scott Ritter, to me it looks like a stupid, kinky little charge really. Yet the kind of charge which people do associate with serious sex crime.

Fox ‘news’ outlines he is accused of streaming webcam of himself masturbating to someone online who said (typed) they were a girl who was 15.

Ive never done that, except taken up an invitation to sex talk with somebody (who knows real a/s/l) on a chat channel once, silly embarassing fun. but i know enough about ‘relay chat’ and camming that there are many thousands of people streaming embarassingly intimate stuff to poorly identifiable strangers over the internet, all the time, all over the world. Taking part in that very widespread activity is what Scotts charge amounts to and if the definition of paedophilia now extends to it that is perversion of language.

Considering the previous deceptive sting in 2002 which Glenn detailed, which was thrown out of court for being perfectly innocent behaviour, and the history of smear campaigns which Wolfowitz (of all people) once defended him against -i dont even credit it happened.

Roderick – could you please point out your best two pieces of evidence that proves this torture that is being committed against you?

So, crab, let me get this straight – if an older man is chatting online with a 12-year-old girl, and he turns on his webcam and shows himself masturbating, you’re totally OK with that? How about a 10-year-old girl?

And yes, I know the putative girl was 15, but that’s not relevant to your analysis (or lack thereof).

If someone engaged in internet sex online with an anonymous partner who typed in that they were ten or twelve years old, i would find that disturbing and suspect.

15 years old, not so much, basicly. Its not my thing. But i dont think its a strong indication of paedophilia.

If photos or cam of an immature looking child/youth are exchanged, or there is evidence of grooming, i think that deserves prosecution and investigation for even more serious paedophile activity.

hth larry

Roderick Russell -

…Often the police start being honest; then they get the message ?” cover-it-up. Police cars fired firecrackers under my bedroom window in the middle of the night and set their sirens off, hoods pointed guns at me in the street, and crowding and escorting me as I walk.

In 2006 we returned to Calgary and there have been a number of threats here though less so than before. For example, people moved in to the apartment block and started harassing us, my daughter was threatened in the street, and much more….

Sorry Roderick, i have read and pondered some of your posts but im no great poster so i havent commented. But your experiences sound harrowing and i believe you and hope you can get peace somehow soon. You are an impressive guy to have kept yourself and your family together through this.

Should be in Accra 2nd week in Feb…keep u posted.

“I can’t help but think that by writing such a paper, Sunstein will have helped create more conspiracy theories than he will debunk”

Quite. It actually lends credence to the conspiracy theories – if they’re not true, why not just ignore them? He may soon appear in Wiki as the unwitting author of the Sunstein Effect, defined as establishing the truth of a theory in the public mind by attempting to prevent discussion of it. We’ll be saying ‘Honestly, I really didn’t believe it, but then I saw it being Sunsteined….’

Ahh the Sunstein effect, the political sibling of the Streisand effect.

Michael Hasty’s article “The Paranoid Shift” is interesting. Couple of quotes:

“In his book, “Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower,” William Blum warns of how the media will make anything that smacks of “conspiracy theory” an immediate “object of ridicule.” This prevents the media from ever having to investigate the many strange interconnections among the ruling class — for example, the relationship between the boards of directors of media giants, and the energy, banking and defense industries. These unmentionable topics are usually treated with what Blum calls “the media’s most effective tool – silence.” But in case somebody’s asking questions, all you have to do is say, “conspiracy theory,” and any allegation instantly becomes too frivolous to merit serious attention. On the other hand, since my paranoid shift, whenever I hear the words “conspiracy theory” (which seems more often, lately) it usually means someone is getting too close to the truth.”

and

“The precision of communications technology and graphics; the century of research on human psychology and emotion; and the uniquely centralized control of triumphant post-Cold War monopoly capitalism, have combined to the point where “the manufacture of consent” can be set on automatic pilot.”

Article at: http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/printer_203.shtml

are angrybutsober and larry the same person?

Arsalan, you caught me!

Roderick,

If you don’t mind my asking, just why would anyone be interested in having you persecuted you across the world over 20 years, if all you did was leave your job and change careers? What would they hope to achieve?

@AbeRene

The same question occurred to me.

Roderick Russell,

What you’re talking about sounds very bizarre indeed but what could possibly be in it for MI5/MI6 or the CIA?

You say that their aim is to break up your marriage (!)

Two questions

a) What on Earth is the purpose splitting up your marriage and at such a massive use of resources?

b) How do you know what their purpose it?

Arsalan, you caught me too.

And I’m still waiting for his best two pieces of evidence of his torture claim.

Roderick, so you know, if I send President Obama a letter stating that the CIA is tapping my phone, that is not evidence that the CIA is tapping my phone.

I think Roderick may be wrong in his interpretation of what is going on but, unless we simply dismiss him as paranoid and delusional (which I doubt), it seems something is nevertheless going on.

I believe he was an employee of Grosvenor International, part of the Duke of Westminster’s property empire. I wonder if he is in possession of sensitive and potentially damaging infomation. He may not even know what it is.

MJ, it looks like those who don’t believe in conspiracies are damned if they do and damned if they don’t look into them.

“I can’t help but think that by writing such a paper, Sunstein will have helped create more conspiracy theories than he will debunk”

Vronsky: “Quite. It actually lends credence to the conspiracy theories – if they’re not true, why not just ignore them?”

And just now, MJ, you quoted William Blum as saying that the media have a tendency to ignore conspiracy theories, which is so not fair, or else be dismissive of them.

So what is the correct attitude to “conspiracy theories”?

Is it worth a newspaper’s time and resources to investigate the possibility that the US was using its top-secret HAARP weapon to cause an earthquake in Haiti?

Or is that one just too silly?

Is it worth their time and resources to investigate whether the US military is creating “cottage cheese chemclouds” in Hawaii.

Or is that one too silly?

Besides, it is not as if conspiracy theorists get no media attention at all. They do. Stephen Jones was on MSNBC, ths “Scholars” got an article about them in the New York Times. Kevin Barrett, Jim Fetzer et al. have been on TV a few times. C-Span broadcast the Scholars jamboree.

Norman Baker had his David Kelly book serialised by the DAILY MAIL! (One of the biggest-selling newspapers around).

“He may not even know what it is.”

So Roderick Russell = Jason Bourne, eh?

Jesus Christ, time for you to stay away from fiction. Grow up.

And stop egging on someone like Roderick, who clearly needs help. In other words, don’t be like Craig Murray, who seems to want to encourage Roderick – the purpose for which I can’t understand.

Perhaps we should have a look at the “theory” put forward by Bill Quigley (Legal Director for the Center for Constitutional Rights) who writes:

“What the Mainstream Media Will Not Tell You About Haiti: Part of the Suffering of Haiti is ‘Made in the USA’”

http://tinyurl.com/y9as5bm

Nice of Obama to draft in GW Bush to help oversee the assistance, now …

That didn’t take long, now did it?

angrysoba: Blum makes particular reference to “the relationship between the boards of directors of media giants, and the energy, banking and defense industries”. He refers to these as “unmentionable topics” and I think he is right.

It is true that some alternative analyses of specific events – we can add the death of Princess Diana to your list – get some serious coverage, especially in the Daily Mail for some reason.

So what is the correct attitude to “conspiracy theories”?

I think the question should be: “what is the correct attitude to politically sensitive events?”

Many years ago, when there was a multiplicity of genuinely independent news organisations, they used to try to outdo each other in groundbreaking, investigative journalism. I think this was healthy. I think the current situation, where the MSM simply repeats as “news” whatever the government tells it, is unhealthy.

I think HAARP and chemtrails are far more worthy of investigation that the private lives of TV personalities, which appear to be the limit of investigative reporting these days.

“And stop egging on someone like Roderick, who clearly needs help”

Larry: perhaps by discussing his claims, rationally but sensitively, we are helping in some small way.

At 3kbps, you should be using a simplifying proxy server like loband.org. For urgent communications, it might be best to set up a telnet service (using pine for email, lynx for web surfing).

Internet telephony services in Ghana are routed through the SAT-3/WASC cable, which is jointly owned by Ghana Telecom and 35 other telecoms. Local ISPs are assigned 2Mbps bandwidth, and supply it to subscribers at an average speed of 1kbps.

The common alternative is to use a VSAT satellite system, but this is more expensive and is rather clogged in West Africa. Additionally, MTN & Zain are now offering GSM or 3G mobile access.

Things are set to improve, though. Glo has just laid the Glo1 fibre optic cable from UK to Nigeria, which should be operational soon, and the Main One cable from Portugal should be installed by May 2010.

“I think HAARP and chemtrails are far more worthy of investigation that the private lives of TV personalities, which appear to be the limit of investigative reporting these days.”

MJ, I sometimes try to give some examples of so-crazy-no-one-could-possibly-believe-it conspiracy theories only to find that they are indeed taken very seriously.

I mean, earthquakes caused by a HAARP weapon?

Now, I am not saying that real investigative journalism should be eradicated or that news should be written purely on the basis of what the journalists are told in press conferences. Absolutely not.

But simply throwing out highly speculative conspiracy theories defies basic jounralistic ethics and newspapers that print such stuff can only have themselves to blame if people no longer take them seriously.

While official lines should certainly be questioned, counter-claims need to be subject to exactly the same kind of rigourous scrutiny. Is this theory coherent? Does it make any kind of sense for the US military to be spraying “chemtrails” everywhere? Does it make any kind of sense to set up intelligence services dedicated to waging a twenty-year harassment campaign of one of that nation’s citizens?

MJ, what about Bigfoot and Roswell?

Sembe,

good on you. You obviously know your stuff!

Angrysoba,

starting from theory and then choosing what evidence to look for is back to front. Investigators should be gathering evidence – you never know where it will lead, or when it might cast light on some theory.

Sure Clark, just like Bigfoot and Roswell.

For many links regarding Haiti see:

http://www.williambowles.info/index.html

http://www.creative-i.info/

All the more recent links ones concern the earthquake, of course. For information about the disasterous US policy towards Haiti, see older links.

Oops! Mentally delete “ones” please!

“While official lines should certainly be questioned, counter-claims need to be subject to exactly the same kind of rigourous scrutiny”

Precisely. No-one calls the Watergate revelations a “conspiracy theory” though that’s what it was. The point is, the official line is rarely subject to the rigorous scrutiny in the MSM that it used to be.

Chemtrails are an interesting point. There appears to be a pretty substantial body of evidence out there. There are videos of it happening. There are chemical analyses of the substances. There are the eyewitness reports of airline employees who claim to have seen the equipment. There is therefore a prima facie case for serious investigation.

It may turn out to be a load of nonsense of course, but rigorous investigation is required to establish that. The fact that it initially appears not to make any sense is neither here nor there. That just means we can’t imagine what the sense of it might be.

“starting from theory and then choosing what evidence to look for is back to front. Investigators should be gathering evidence – you never know where it will lead, or when it might cast light on some theory.”

Sure. And that is clearly what conspiracy theorists don’t get. They start from theory and then find the evidence. In fact, they often start from a moral judgment, then make a theory that fits that moral judgment, then find the evidence.

It sometimes goes like this:

People say, Osama bin Laden is bad, however that’s conventional thinking, the US is much worse, think about it. They probably did 9/11 because their corporations benefit. The towers were demolished. It had nothing to do with the planes that flew into them. The planes didn’t have any hijackers because a list of victims published by CNN didn’t include the hijackers. The buildings were blown up by bombs and demolished. Lots of people said they heard explosions. Why were there no explosions on the video recordings of the towers collapsing? Because they used silent thermite made in a US lab. Yes, I did say there were sounds of explosives because people said they heard them. Why were there no sounds on video? Because they used silent nanothermite. I said there were no sounds and yet there WERE sounds? Yes, that’s because we have eyewitnesses who said they heard them…etc…etc…

“what about Bigfoot and Roswell?”

Sorry Larry, never given either any serious attention so can’t really comment.

MJ,

Do you think this lady is a little bit crazy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FbLzTp5GRI

Angrysoba,

are you personally interested in challenging the MSM?

“That’s a cue for a song…”

It Says Here

It says here that the Unions will never learn

It says here that the economy is on the upturn

And it says here we should be proud

That we are free

And our free press reflects our democracy

Those braying voices on the right of the House

Are echoed down the Street of Shame

Where politics mix with bingo and tits

In a strictly money and numbers game

Where they offer you a feature

On stockings and suspenders

Next to a call for stiffer penalties for sex offenders

It says here that this year’s prince is born

It says here do you ever wish

That you were better informed

And it says here that we can only stop the rot

With a large dose of Law and Order

And a touch of the short sharp shock

If this does not reflect your view you should understand

That those who own the papers also own this land

And they’d rather you believe

In Coronation Street capers

In the war of circulation, it sells newspapers

Could it be an infringement

Of the freedom of the press

To print pictures of women in states of undress

When you wake up to the fact

That your paper is Tory

Just remember, there are two sides to every story

angrysoba: your analysis of how people arrive at a different interpretation of 911 bears no relation to reality, in my own particular case anyway.

For almost a year I was perfectly satisfied with the official account. It made perfect sense and I did not doubt it for one minute. My opinion changed very gradually, over a long period of time, and it was actually looking at the evidence closely that did it.

One of the first things that struck me was that important key evidence was either missing (eg black box recorders, the planes themselves) or wilfully and illegally destroyed (eg the rubble of the buildings).

That’s how it started. The only theory I started with was that the official account was correct. I had no predisposition toward thinking it was wrong. Realising it was probably wrong was a period of great anguish for me.

You ask us a lot of questions, angrysoba. You need to ask yourself some, starting with why are you so angry – so angry that you put the word in your alias.

There are lots of silly beliefs in the world – or to put it a little more modestly, lots of beliefs that seem to me to be silly. None of them worries me – people can think what they like, follow whatever drumbeat they please, and so long as they do not intrude upon me and mine I am happy to watch their parade pass by with its drums and bugles.

I think it unlikely that an alien spacecraft crashed at Roswell and the incident was covered up by US military for their own, ever nefarious, purposes. Perhaps there is a large primate previously unknown to zoologists wandering around the north American forests, but I’m not convinced. David Icke’s thesis that our political leaders are shape-shifting lizards from a distant galaxy is one where I think I’d like to have a little more evidence, but maybe that’s just me. It could be that there is a monster in Loch Ness, I don’t know. When I read in a newspaper that someone thinks that the Pope is the Antichrist I don’t feel obliged to make contact with that person and tell him that he is a moron and a nutjob. I just turn the page – there is other news. I don’t get angry about any of these ideas and they don’t lead me to insult anyone.

But you don’t just turn the page, angrysoba. You present as harbouring feelings of gross personal offence at certain opinions – opinions which on the other hand you describe as mere foolish drollery, naught better than ghosts, marvels and monsters. There is a striking asymmetry between your claimed perception of the weight of an argument, and the weight of your response to it. That sort of behaviour is often described as psychotic.

Physician, heal thyself.

PS: This makes post No. 101 on a blog from Craig which was merely an apology for not blogging. Is this a record?

Vronsky,

interesting observations about Angrysoba, though to be fair, I don’t think he’s mentioned Roswell or Bigfoot; it’s 911 that seems to upset him most.

I think there are a lot of comments here partly because we can comment without dragging the thread off-topic.

MJ,

good posts. I agree with you about the trivialisation of news and the decline in investigative journalism. Most news outlets are now owned by a few megacorporations. But people are increasingly turning to the Internet for their news.

Your experience on discovering the alternative 911 theories is very similar to my own. I felt shaken up for weeks.

Vronsky: Interesting point. One can see why the beliefs of others can be a problem, for instance, the mythical belief that Saddam Hussein had WMD, and if he didn’t, they must have been hidden or – even more ludicrously – given (!) to Iran. That sort of delusion leads to war, and allows war criminal leaders to get away with their lies.

Belief in sky-beings is all very well, heck, worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (pesto be upon him) if that’s what you want to do. But it does harm the rational among us when the religiously deluded demand “faith schools” using our tax money to indoctrinate the young and malleable, and they grow up not even knowing there are alternatives to some fundamentalists’ point of view. (The certainly happened to me – I had no idea that anyone rejected the strict Biblical worldview until I was about 12.)

But if someone wants to believe in BigFoot, Nessie etc., fine – just don’t ask me to change my life to accommodate such beliefs. And if someone wants to believe in the Magic Arab conspiracy theory, where 19 non-practicing Muslims managed to defeat the most heavily defended air space in history and cause highly improbable spontaneous and complete collapses of buildings, and such a True Believer wants to ignore all inconvenient evidence to the contrary, fine. Just don’t expect me to support wars of aggression and occupation in a supposed response. And don’t expect me to be afraid, jumping from one foot to the other while peeing my pants, as Americans do, and as we British are now being called upon to do.

Troublingly, the above is exactly what is being expected of us, on the basis of the most risible conspiracy theory and flimsiest of evidence, that even the authors of which now denounce (eg, Farmer, who drafted the 9/11 Commission Report). And to question the Official Conspiracy Theory makes one a nut, of course, possibly cowardly and unpatriotic, because we should always rush, rush, rush to war. (At least, others should. The most enthusiastic supporters for war – particularly leaders – run like hell from it themselves.)

“I don’t think he’s mentioned Roswell or Bigfoot; it’s 911 that seems to upset him most.”

I wasn’t suggesting that he had (he probably will, though) but yeah, it’s 9/11. If you read the Sunstein paper linked to higher up the thread, you’ll see that that is all he’s worried about too – padded out with some faux scholarliness about conspiracy theories in general. He cites Popper and obviously hasn’t read him.

RODERICK RUSSELL ?” JUST TO ANSWER YOUR COMMENTS

DEFINITION OF TORTURE

The acknowledged definition of torture is- “torture means any act or omission by which pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person.” It has been further defined as “One severe act such as threatening ones family members is usually enough to demonstrate mental torture, though usually there is a pattern.” A pattern of threats against ones family members ?” we have had 10 years of it!

Well, look on my earlier note on this blog (just above this one) and you will see a 10 year pattern of these threats clear enough; then go to the Wiki for specific back-up and note how much of it is independently witnessed. Torture beyond a doubt several times over, and also it is a hate crime.

WHY DID IT MOVE FROM SLANDER TO THREATS

I am just speculating here ?” because I don’t know. Here is what others have suggested.

What I was told by people who perhaps know more than I do is this: They don’t see it as a big deal since it only took a 30 second phone call to the MI*s (or CSIS) to get a professional defamation job going. They are actually annoyed that I should make such a big deal of it. My continuing to fight back apparently damages their reputation. They now see me as the person who is causing them a problem ?” and think how dare this peon cause us a problem. Is also possible that the MI*s exceeded the mandate they were given. Or perhaps there is a sadist, or a psychopath somewhere in this loop? I really don’t know the reason; I just know that it happened and that there is plenty of proof?

As for the professional slandering/defamation that started everything off ?” A Human Resource consultant suggested it is simple: they saw your decision to leave as rejection, and they decided to reject you. My wife thinks it was just caused by petty jealousies among Vancouver staff, and everything just ratcheted up from there.

It is not logical, but then the slandering wasn’t logical either. All I can say is click on the WIKI Chapter 2 and you will see precedent where this has happened to others in the UK. What does Liam Clark say on zerzetsen in the UK “It is a phenomenon I have witnessed many times before”. And one of the most common statements people often make is ?” I don’t know why they did it.

LARRY THE LIAR

I suspect Larry has another agenda. If you look at the final two paragraphs on my comment (above) of Jan 16 2.49AM, you will note that while Larry is keen to provide libelous statements, he doesn’t provide analysis or any evidence to back them up, just accusations from his own prejudices. You will note that he hasn’t responded to any of the questions I asked him ?” just made more libelous accusations. Larry doesn’t debate he just accuses. In fact he is doing just exactly what those who spread the lies would want someone to do. That’s why I would like to know who his employer is, or who his past employer was.

I welcome critical review, but Larry’s comments are just insults without analysis. Though based in St. Louis his writing style is Public School English, not American.

This is a very nasty personal situation that Larry is libeling on. Just step back and think how evil this really is. I think we need to know a little bit more about Larry, and what his agenda is? I think that if Larry is to continue in this vein, other bloggers, in view of the unusual situation, should demand of him that (a) he analyze every one of his points, (b) answer my question to him and (c) stop hiding behind anonymity and provide his contact details as I do.

Roderick : I suggest you totally ignore your antagonist on this blog, instead of responding. It works just fine for me

Glenn, You are right. Sorry

Roderick,

A note: Someone who writes, “a pedophile who harbored” — as St Louis Larry did — is probably American.

I mostly take an interest and all, but in this case can’t see why anyone would need to know anything beyond the fact that some mad people killed a lot of other people, of all ages, races and religions, and that our governments, instead of turning the other cheek, as they were begged to by relatives of the dead, used this as an excuse to unleash ‘Shock and Awe’ on a completely unconnected country.

What do you do with these people? You kick them out, well done America, shame on the UK. And yet today the Guardian front page tells us that Barack Obama is less popular than Charles Manson, and Obama himself is appearing at press conferences between Bush and Clinton. Oh dear.

“Ahh the Sunstein effect, the political sibling of the Streisand effect.”

Between that and “terrorosis” I must say this is an inventive place.

Roderick – I’m still waiting for your best two pieces of evidence of your torture claim.

Roderick, so you know, if I send President Obama a letter stating that the CIA is tapping my phone, that is not evidence that the CIA is tapping my phone.

Now you’re getting boring, Larry. I expect Roderick will get back to you in his own time, if he wants to. Have you nothing better to do?

Dreoilin, I agree with you that someone who writes, “a pedophile who harbored” is probably American. But I also think that whoever drafted Larry’s comment under Craig’s “Greek Orhodox Church Blog” (Jan 13th @ 6.21 AM) for him is probably English Public School educated. It is really that comment (the first one) that I was referring to. American’s don’t write in that style.

Larry,

you are on record as stating that you believe Roderick Russell to be mentally unwell, and that you would no longer make fun of him. You seem to have changed your mind.

EITHER – Mr Russell is unwell, in which case, what does your continued questioning tell us about you?

OR – Mr Russell has suffered abuse. Again, in this case, what does your derisive, aggressive questioning indicate about you?

How well do you think that understand your own motivation, Larry?

Roderick: No apology necessary, my friend. It’s easy to get caught up with people intent on nothing but mischief, particularly when the matter is so personal.

Clark: I think we understand the motivation well enough. And it’s been nothing but malicious all along, and not just towards Roderick.

Clark – I changed my mind.

Roderick,

it is interesting that you mention that post of Larry’s. I commented on it myself on the same thread, on Jan 13 12:00 PM, pointing out that it was very different from his previous posts. A post of his crossed with mine, and he had returned to form, ie most unpleasant. I’m pondering all this. Let’s see what he does next.

Roderick,

Have I become part of the evidence of your torture?

Perhaps you need to analyse the evidence better, in full colour.

So, Larry, how are you feeling?

Why in full colour, Larry?

Larry,

you’ve gone very quiet, are you feeling OK?

Actually, I feel that some people around here are starting to make sense.

larry, in my book, cannot be all bad, since he, along with asoba and eddie, stood up to ‘jaded, steelback and apostate’ on another thread. i could be wrong, glenn, of course.

however, since he’s diagnosing other people, I think Larry may be unsure about how seriously to take himself. I further think he has an enquiring mind and is academically intelligent, and therefore needs to apply himself to something which deeply interests him. His behaviour towards other people, exhibits occasional flashes of cruelty and anger, which I would attribute to problems in the past. I would suggest, however, that he have a cold beer and chill, and stop bullying people, because he is OK, really.

I would probably say something of the same about myself. The internet can lead to this kind of polarised thing, and also to something akin to a group mind, which is a bit freaky.

Roderick are you in London? I got a bit lost about your whereabouts. If you are, I’d happily meet up for a beer.

Larry,

wgo do you feel is making sense?

Sorry Larry, typo WHO etc…

Do you think I might be part of some MKULTRA experiment? Sometimes I can’t help myself with things.

Larry,

I think that’s unlikely, but not impossible. I know only a little about MKULTRA, but it sounds exceedingly frightening and cruel, so I hope you aren’t.

What sort of things can’t you help yourself with?

Someone has been posting here as me, and it’s not me.

Larry,

would you like to continue this conversation with instant messaging? It would take me a little while to set up. If so, do you have an IM account? I think I still have a Hotmail address…

“Actually, I feel that some people around here are starting to make sense”.

Wash your mouth out Larry. Any more talk like that and I’m afraid you’ll go down as a moronic nutjob.

“Someone has been posting here as me, and it’s not me”.

Told you.

mmm. your posts have been somewhat, she says politely, contradictory. I guess when craig gets back he could ask the web admin to do something, in the meantime we are left holding the fort. So, how about a game of general knowledge? My first question, for informed users of this board (no googling allowed) is:

“What does ‘dreolin’ mean, and where does it come from?”

They’re coming for me! They’ve been listening!

technicolour:

I don’t know, but it’s ‘dreoilin’. Do I get half a point?

I’ve been told that the code is in here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8BWBn26bX0

Yep! Actually, its Irish for ‘wren’ (a sacred bird to the druids, as were all birds, apparently). Your go!

Technicolour,

I don’t know what ‘dreolin’ means, but ‘dreo_i_lin’ was defined yesterday.

I wish I knew how to pronounce it…

Clark wins on points, so he gets the next question.

How does one regain control of the confounded Adobe Flash Player?

Good question. Have searched far & wide, ever since being barred from youtube, and, as yet, no joy, apart from other people’s computers. Mind you, I had a good spree while it lasted.

Good piece of music, Answer Man. Reminds me of two of my previous jobs.

No, I should have guessed that there was no answer to that…

Larry,

have they got you yet? Can you stay on-line via psi or the dongle between your ears?

I agree with Roderick Russell that Larry’s writing style is public school English. Total, 100% shill. The white man’s burden, which is the layered guilt of deceit, violence, theft, slander, rape, religious conversion i.e. in common parlance ‘ colonialism ‘, is now weighing heavily on US citizens. Collective guilt makes them question not accuse. Larry’s writing style betrays him as of British colonial extraction, whose miserable lot is to defend colonialism long after it has ceased to bring any him any personal benefit. He even has to disguise his stuffy accent and out-dated mind-set behind a red-necked persona from St Louis.

He is, in my opinion, a British has-been, dreaming about a vanished imperialism, which he sees glimpses of in the current US ‘Fuck the World – We’re in charge now’ terror surge of the last 60 years. A power addict, control freak, currently doing cold turkey; a Hard Rock fan, whose idols are dead, worshipping the 20 metre bomb craters the US dropped into Baghdad, and massacres of every single living being in towns like Fallujia, and the anonymity of murder by drones, long after his heroes of Churchill and Montgmery, Lawrence and Clive have become tattered artefacts in a Museum. Peronally, I prefer to look forward to a new era based on Islam than try to relive past glories in the bloody deeds of today’s US global terrorism.

Hi Anno,

what do you make of me?

Behead those who insult Islam!

Oversympathetic to shillshits who try to fend USUKIS aggression. otherwise fine.

Omar = Larry

I am not that dog!

Anno, thanks.

I try to change people’s opinions and outlooks. I was brought up to; Jehovah’s Witlesses (sic) have to go out on the doors and try to convert people. If I’m cynical about myself, I could say I never grew out of it. If I’m kind to myself, I can say that that is a coincidence, and I think it’s the best thing to do.

I think that changing people’s opinions for the better is what Craig’s blog is for.

a dog that can read!

yeah, kill all zio-scum illegal immigrant alien banker government corporate shit! up division and down with shillshits! down with them, I say.

I have a dog. He has a very nice nature, kind and playful. Not kind to rabbits, though.

So who are you, Omar? Tell me something about yourself.

THAT WASN’T ME? OR WAS IT? YOU WILL NEVER KNOW. HAH HA!

ps think I could spot tony-opmoc at a distance, tho

http://images.wallaceandgromit.com/films/granddayout/gallery/gdo_nsg_5_0.jpg

I pursued a lovely Jamaican girl right into the regular study routines of the Jehovah’ Witnesses, and if she hadn’t turned me down I might still be there.

I later found that Church going is often used as an informal dating agency, but I didn’t know that at the time.

Segregation in mosques seems to me like a good solution to the problem.

Anno,

who’s minds should we try to change, and who’s shouldn’t we bother with?

we speak our truth and we are not in any control of anything beyond. I used to have a dog and his ears used to smell of old peat. He liked going off on his own and when he got rolled over on the road by a car, it didn’t stop him going on the road. Most people get on fine, but shills cause friction, just for fun. Shills are my rabbits, I have an allergy to lying.

Anno,

I’ve noticed that people use their church-going to find partners. They get all dressed up for church. I couldn’t pretend to believe something to find a partner; the relationship would be based on a lie, not love.

You had a lucky escape from the Witlesses there, I’d say. I’m very glad that I got out.

What;s wrong with dating? Because it might lead to making sweet love?

I must say, I have a soft spot for jehovah’s witnesses. When I was small, my mum used to give ‘our’ jehovah’s witness tea & biscuits, and I dutifully used to read the watchtower after he left He was sweet, if rather fragile, and I can’t say the watchtower ever did me any harm.

You’ll probably see Craig joining a church soon.

Anno, I asked Larry how old he was, but he never answered me. I think he may be quite young, he seems rather immature.

I think – I hope – that I’ve changed a lot in my life so far. I never took any interest in the injustices of the world. The ‘Clark’ of, say, 1986 would never have seen the treachery that the ‘Clark’ of today does.

So I have to give the ‘Larrys’ of this world the same chance.

Technicolour,

the things they teach are very frightening. I don’t mind them trying to convert adults, but to indoctrinate the minds of children is wrong.

When I visited Kurdistan, I was visiting someone, when a man came in with a green scarf, repeatedly mentioning Allah’s name.

He was provided with tea,food and money.

Many strange things are done in the name of religion and it gives religion a bad name.

Anno, why do you think that Craig will become religious? And which religion?

I’ve only recently accepted my own atheism. I should add that being atheist doesn’t exclude spirituality; the Universe is full of mystery.

Crikey, it doesn’t really matter who’s posting what, does it? Ideas & thoughts & opinions are being floated, whoever’s doing it, or why. And yet few people are condemning other people for their floating thoughts. Nice, maybe even developing.

Still, there is the tangible world, so I’m going to deal with some thing other than my keyboard. Goodnight. Clark, could meet for a bevvy in Loughton?

The American Christian Right…

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry, problem of cross-posting; those last posts were rather lovely and made me feel peaceful, thanks, chaps.

Technicolour,

yes, I can sometimes get to Loughton; tomorrow (Sunday) even. Where abouts? There’s a pub there where John Etheridge used to play, isn’t there? I can’t remember what it is called.

Today, a small girl was visiting my house, and when she saw me praying she statrted to do the same. That’s why we say that people who come into Islam are re-verts.

Because you could see that her inborn nature which we call ‘fitra’ enabled her to recognise what I was doing and want to do the same. If you ask any child who God is, they have a place for comprehending a Divine being. Man is more than an animal, and we have forgotten what a respected creature is Man.

not just the american christian right, everyone who doesn’t hold the middle ground. it is hard to do this. i always think of yeats: “the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of a passionate intensity”

Anno,

I pray; I think it is a good thing to do. Sharpens up the mind. You really have to think about what to ask of ‘The Supreme Being’.

But I do not believe in a creator or a personal god.

This may be a contradiction – all I can do is refer you to Neils Bohr’s ‘Principle of Complementarity’.

The US Christian Right frighten me the most, simply because they hold by far the most destructive capability.

yeah, but fortunately they are balanced by venal careerists

don’t be scared. what’s the point?

Anno,

promise Larry you won’t bite, so he can come out from behind the sofa. If he’s as young as I think he is, then I was frightened of Muslims at his age. The mainstream media is full of negative imagery of Muslims, it’s not surprising that people get scared.

Technicolour,

or feelings can be repressed or ignored. They cannot be controlled – well, not directly. Evolutionary Psychology tells us why; they are older than rationality – I call them ‘the animal substrate of humans’. We can change our feelings only with time and practice or with good experiences.

Sorry, that should read ‘OUR feelings…’

Hi guys, just been watching Match of the Day. Clark, in your post at 11.50 your string of exclamation marks appears to be green. How did you do that?

I suspect you’re on a laptop or an LCD screen, and it has to do with ‘sub-pixel rendering’. Ubuntu has a setting to get it right, Windows hasn’t, as far as I know. I can’t specify colours here, as far as I know, and I didn’t attempt to. Here’s an experiment:

!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!! !! # !!!!!!!!ii ll

Try changing the font and see if it changes…

“your string of exclamation marks appears to be green. How did you do that?”

That’s technicolour!

You guys sound like you’ve all been at the beer. Except anno.

Yes, Windows with LED screen. I increased the font size and it went black/grey again.

Hi Dreoilin!

No beer here, just my normal tobacco addiction. Cursed stuff!

I haven’t touched a drop. but I did mean LCD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering

and talking about me behind my back?

tsk tsk tsk! I’m only a little bird. Harmless.

Hi Clark!

The pixels are laid out in vertical rows, regularly spaced. The exclamation marks are vertical lines, regularly spaced. Between them they make an interference pattern, an extra green pixel gets lit every time. A sort of conspiracy!

It looks quite good actually. Not all conspiracies are malign.

It’s interesting that I worked out that MJ was on an LCD screen. Sometimes we impart information accidentally.

Sherlock Holmes beware!

MJ,

I hope you use Firefox. IE is so insecure.

MJ, the fact is that I have looked at the “evidence” that 9/11 was an inside job and when I heard that the phone calls would have been impossible or about the collapse of WTC7 I definitely did think, “Wow! This changes everything” and I looked into it.

The problem was that it didn’t take long to find out that it was simply not true that the phone calls were impossible or that there was anything suspicious about the collapse of WTC7 (it was hit by debris from the collapse of the north tower – a feat that would have been incredibly complicated to pull off if that had been the original plan. It was badly damaged, according to plenty of firefighters, presumably lost much of its fireproofing ability, burned for seven hours until there was a progressive internal collapse and then finally the exterior with no support columns left fell down. The fact that the firefighters had already expected the building to fall down and that its structural integrity had gone is always left out by Truthers).

The odd-but-true factoids about 9/11 seemed to have no coherent direction, they just seemed intent on undermining the “official story” (which Truthers like to pretend is simply a “story” the government fabricated and relayed to the MSM) and through some triple jump logic arriving at the idea that it was an inside job.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

/////////////////////////////////

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Well, I did experiment with Firefox but it seemed to cause problems, occasional freezing and crashes etc, so I had to uninstall it and revert to IE. But there’s a big story today about a new security problem with IE. I’m thinking of trying Safari…

Building Seven boggles my mind.

Has anyone seen “The Hurt Locker”? I’m curious to get someone else’s reaction — aside from newspaper reviews.

Cripes, Anonymous’s first line of exclamation marks is green for me now. I’ve never see that in text before.

Safari is based on Konqueror, from Linux KDE, so it should be securable. If you download Ubuntu Linux, you can burn it onto a CD and boot your PC directly from it, without using the hard disk at all, and thus find out if your hardware is Linux compatible.

Angrysoba, is it a myth that no other steel framed buildings have collapsed from fire and damage?

Sorry Dreoilin, that was me. You’re on an LCD of some sort, too, huh?

Well at least you have a good explanation…

Which is more than I’ve ever got for Building 7.

I’m on a laptop.

Roderick and Anno,

Your “theory” that Larry is an English public-school educated MI6 agent is just silly. This is a perfect example of how your thought processes lead you to believing nonsense.

You believe you can detect tell-tale signs of public school educated prose and yet when it is pointed out to you that he actually writes with American spelling and not at all like an English public school boy you decide that it shows just how clever the secret service are in disguising Larry’s background.

This is just silly.

Dreoilin,

no, I’ve never seen it. What is it about, and did you enjoy it?

angrysoba: I think your account of WTC7 is a little too cosy. It’s a bit weirder than that. No-one ignores the fact that the fire crews were warned to leave. Then there’s the even stranger case of WTC6…

I think the 911 discepancies are a rather more than “odd-but-true factoids” and that the alternative interpretations are somewhat more coherent than you suggest.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this subject, at least until tomorrow. I need to go to bed soon.

That make it LCD?

“What is it about, and did you enjoy it?”

No, it’s about an American bomb disposal unit, set in Iraq around 2004. Someone rented me the DVD. I wondered if anyone thought it deserved the ‘stunning’ reviews it got. Never mind, it’s bedtime.

Angrysoba,

are you having a laugh? You conflate Anno and Roderick’s theories, add a bit, and then theatrically demolish this construction of your own. This is just the sort of behaviour that you frequently object to!

Dreoilin,

yep, laptops have LCDs. Cussed things to fix when the backlight fails. I’ve got three to do.

No, more ‘War On Terror’ hype, by the sound of it. Did you follow those links to ‘The Totally Pants Bomber’? That was a good laugh. It is by a bomb disposal expert who worked in London during The Troubles.

“Angrysoba, is it a myth that no other steel framed buildings have collapsed from fire and damage?”

It’s irrelevant.

In fact it is not true that no steel-framed buildings have collapsed due to fire. They have.

“The 1960 exposition hall was destroyed in a spectacular 1967 fire, despite being thought fireproof by virtue of its steel and concrete construction. At the time of the fire, the building contained highly flammable exhibits, several hydrants were shut off, and the sprinklers proved inadequate suppression. Thus the fire spread quickly and destructively, taking the life of a security guard.[4] A subsequent investigation found major flaws in the design and construction of the building, and led to a much better understanding of how modern steel and concrete structures can be vulnerable to fire.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCormick_Place#History

It’s also a fact that WTC7 was hit by collapsing skyscraper twice its size.

Truthers have sometimes moved the goalposts by saying no steel-framed high-rise or no steel-framed skyscraper has ever collapsed due to fire. Again, this ignores the other factors involved and it simply raises a “So what?” factor to it.

No man has ever gone into space! This was once true, but didn’t stop Yuri Gagarin. No man has ever landed on the Moon. It didn’t stop Neil Armstrong.

You might also note that firefighters weren’t swayed by the argument that no steel-framed high rise has ever collapsed when they ceased firefighting operations and formed a collapse zone around the building and notified the press that the building could collapse. Where was David Ray Griffin to tell them that it was impossible for WTC7 to collapse?

Can we all just go to bed now?

Goodnight Dreoilin,

Goodnight MJ.

I’ll be signing off myself in a bit…

‘The Totally Pants Bomber’ – Is the link on this thread? I go have a look.

Clark, you seem to be on a fast connection.

G’night all …

Goodnight Technicolour!

Clark, Anno’s comment about Larry being an English colonial pining for the days of Lawrence and Clive is a masterpiece of speculation. He provides absolutely no evidence for his assertions and I might be inclined to believe he is joking. But it really is impossible to know.

Roderick clearly does suspect Larry is MI5/MI6 or something similar. Of course you notice that:

“I welcome critical review, but Larry’s comments are just insults without analysis. Though based in St. Louis his writing style is Public School English, not American.

This is a very nasty personal situation that Larry is libeling on. Just step back and think how evil this really is. I think we need to know a little bit more about Larry, and what his agenda is?”

And,

“Dreoilin, I agree with you that someone who writes, “a pedophile who harbored” is probably American. But I also think that whoever drafted Larry’s comment under Craig’s “Greek Orhodox Church Blog” (Jan 13th @ 6.21 AM) for him is probably English Public School educated. It is really that comment (the first one) that I was referring to. American’s don’t write in that style. ”

I don’t think I am unfairly characterizing anyone’s beliefs here.

About 3 megabits per sec; average broadband. Slow PC, too, 1GHz. Short sentences probably.

Goodnight Dreoilin.

Angrysoba,

my criticism of you was a bit exaggerated, but Roderick didn’t actually call Larry MI6.

I think you should be a bit kinder to those who are suspicious. If no one was misleading anyone I could understand it, but the MSM is skewing matters all the time. It must be horrible to be Muslim in the UK. And it sounds like Roderick Russell has been / is going through hell.

The Totally Pants Bomber…

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/08/mutallab_comment/

Angrysoba,

I suppose what I’m saying is that threat and deception evoke suspicion and fear, which we can uncharitably characterize as the mental illness called paranoia.

Angrysoba,

Larry arrived here about when you did your ‘The British Ambassador…’ piece. Do you know who he is? Is he a visitor to your blog?

“my criticism of you was a bit exaggerated, but Roderick didn’t actually call Larry MI6.”

That was clearly implied and both of us know that.

Also, I was being unkind. I think it is unkind to bolster someone’s paranoia by saying that they are right.

“It must be horrible to be Muslim in the UK.”

Really? What makes it so horrible to be a Muslim in Britain? Is Roderick Russell a Muslim?

“Do you know who he is? Is he a visitor to your blog?”

I’ve never met him and I don’t know if he visits my blog. He’s never commented there as far as I know.

“Also, I was being unkind. ”

Whoops!

I meant to say, “Also, I don’t think I was being unkind.”

Angrysoba,

Anno is Muslim. I thought I mentioned the tabloids to you. There is a thinly veiled hate campaign against Islam going on in the UK. It’s not just the tabloids, but that’s where it’s clearest. Fear is being exaggerated, and I believe deliberately so in some cases.

You should read these pages with a more open mind. Let your opinions wander a bit; you can always think yourself back into your usual mindset later. Put yourself in others’ positions.

Angrysoba,

one thing that must be horrible for lots of people here is that UK forces are part of the force that regularly kills many civilians in Afghanistan. Afghani casualties far outnumber Western casualties.

You accuse the ‘truthers’ of seeing what they look for, but this is a universal human trait. If you assume that you are immune, then you are almost certainly mistaken.

Look for the broken windows of ‘Indian’ resturants and takeaways. Look for the videos on YouTube of race hate. Look for the marches of skinheads, supposedly opposing ‘radical Islam’, but actually just racist. Look for the e-mails that get constantly circulated, with the photo of that placard years ago, after the deliberately inflamed Danish cartoons incident. That slogan was posted on THIS SITE TONIGHT. Man, are you blind?

Listen, and hear the constant drumbeat for war with Iran. Look at Larry’s justifications for the war with Iraq. Look at Larry’s ignorance of the causes of that war.

This thread appears to have melted down. An audit of poster is needed.

Glenn?

Hi. I made three posts in response to Angrysoba, and then I had to take my dog out for a walk. Angrysoba didn’t come back, I don’t know why. I’m getting ready for bed now.

Clark,

I certainly don’t disagree that there are right-wing groups who commit hateful racist attacks. They behave this way to just about any ethnic minority. It’s a disgrace and an embarrassment. But it is clearly not only Muslims who receive this treatment and I don’t know of anywhere that racism doesn’t exist in some form or another.

Also, while I think there is a legitimate debate to be had about both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, I do not agree with the idea that it is a war against Muslims. By far the largest number of Sunni Muslims killed in Iraq has been at the hands of Shia death squads, and by far the largest number of Shias killed have been at the hands of Sunni groups.

In Afghanistan there have been massive amounts of ethnic conflict there that have nothing to do with NATO’s presence. If they pull out you won’t see the end of massacres against the Hazara by the Pashtuns. It’s true that NATO has allied itself with those who are little better (Ismael Khan and Dostum) but I think there’s a naivete to some of the anti-war crowd who seem to believe that there will be no conflict once the US and the UK pull out.

“Listen, and hear the constant drumbeat for war with Iran.”

The drumbeat often comes from left-wing blogs who are adamant that war with Iran is just around the corner. I’ve heard this for about four years so far and there hasn’t been a war. If anything it appears the US has been restraining Israel from taking action against Iran’s nuclear power plants as Israel did against Iraq’s.

I don’t see Obama making any commitment to any war with Iran.

On the other hand, does Iran demonize any of its neighbours? Does its president make bellicose statements about its neighbours?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo&feature=player_embedded

Oh, and Clark. I posted an email address in the comments box on my blog in response to an earlier question of yours.

Clark: I’m extremely suspicious of posters who apparently dislike the entire ethos of the blog, yet hang around anyway, almost as if it were an assignment. Particularly when more than one such poster turns up at once, and most particularly when they spin the same sort of line. You see it on progressive media in the US (most notably in talk radio) right now. An apparently interested newcomer will be just stopping by, very interested in what you say, but could you just argue against this quite innocently assumed neocon line? And can I keep asking you for information (almost as if I were an innocent coming in afresh!) once again, in order to fool newcomers? And might I please undermine you while sounding very reasonable myself? And couldn’t I call someone a total idiot quite often, while pretending to be an ordinary bystander?

I suppose appealing to the British personality is _very_ hard to do for outsiders, particularly boiler-rooms in the US. They don’t get irony, and above all, they don’t understand that British people don’t think it right to kick a perceived “loser” (or “looser”, as they would more often have it) when they seem to be down.

Angrysoba,

just a few days ago, The Times published an article about a ‘neutron initiator’, claiming conclusive proof of Iran building a nuclear bomb. US Intelligence showed that to be fake.

Angrysoba, there are so many examples I could give. I’m not sure what time it is there, here it is almost three in the morning; you have an unfair advantage over me.

I live amongst this induced islamophobia. You do not, or maybe Japan is like it too, I don’t know. As I say, look through these pages with acceptance, just believe it for a bit, and ask yourself what it means.

Guantanamo. Torture. Watch the ‘Trophy Video’ of mercenaries shooting indiscriminately in Irag. Arrests and deportation after confiscation of deadly sugar and snapshots in Manchester.

Read Craig’s book.

And stop being an apologist for wrongdoing.

Goodnight.

Also, on the cartoons thing, the whole thing was manufactured, yes. But who actually manufactured it?

The cartoons originally came out and no one noticed. They were then picked up by a couple of Danish imams who took them to the Middle East to stir up controversy.

So the cartoonist himself actually does get attacked by a guy weilding an axe. What’s he going to do with that axe, do you think? His actions are praised by al-Shabab in Somalia.

Glenn,

thanks.

Angrysoba,

I’m aware of that. Ordinary Muslims were manipulated, partly by other Muslims.

I’ve attempted to engage with you honestly and emotionally. I’m beginning to think that you are acting in bad faith. You have failed to engage emotionally with me. You have not stated what you wish to achieve. You have spoken about truth, but no other values.

You’d better show some humanity, or I will cease to interact with you.

hey sleepyhead, great thread, now go on to bed. )

(especialy the lyrics!)

Billy Bragg. Good man.

“Is it worth it? A new winter coat and shoes for the wife, and a bicycle on the boy’s birthday…

Goodnight, Crab, Glenn,

And Angrysoba, I hope you find peace, not just truth.

Clark said: “I’m beginning to think that you are acting in bad faith”

… do you really suppose that this might apply to some of the posters here? I am shocked to even consider such dishonesty.

Blimey

So far as I can tell Craig Murray posted

“Missing You

Difficult journey to Ghana Europe snow now here very intermittent connection speedtest 3kbps (sic) when working. Almost impossible post. Ghana Telecom privatised to Vodafone much worse. Try post tomorrow.”

And as a result of saying that – he has had 234 replies

That is Enormous RESPECT

And of Course He Deserves It

Craig Murray is Kind of Special

Tony

Damned straight, Tony.

He could create more topicless threads in the future for regulars to converse in, help clear up the topical ones a bit.

Clark,

I am not sure I understand what you want me to do.

In answer to your questions and some of your statements.

a) There isn’t any visible discrimination against Muslims here in Japan. It certainly doesn’t seem to be as bad as you say it is in the UK.

b) But Japanese troops were deployed to Iraq to help in reconstruction work there. I don’t think there was any belief that they were engaged in a war against Muslims.

c) I think that torture, mercenaries, Guantanamo are all completely legitimate issues. When such things happen these things should be recognized as bad enough instead of made-up stories about false flags which undermine the credibility of those protesting against torture etc…

d) I have read Murder in Samarkand. I said that on my blog.

e) I think it is a terrible calumny against Muslims to believe that only those who react to events by blowing things up or rioting over cartoons or attempting to kill the person who made them are authentic Muslims.

f) I have put an email address in the comments box of my blog in response to an earlier request.

“I suppose appealing to the British personality is _very_ hard to do for outsiders, particularly boiler-rooms in the US. They don’t get irony, and above all, they don’t understand that British people don’t think it right to kick a perceived “loser” (or “looser”, as they would more often have it) when they seem to be down.”

Glenn, if you believe in those silly generalizations, you’re even more dumb than I thought.

It’s ALWAYS fun to hear the British say that Americans don’t understand irony – it’s such a simplistic and stupid statement that so many Brits allow to go unchallenged.

Also, a “Looser” is someone who believes the Loose Change movie.

Sounds like Blackwater is in Haiti already:

Jeremy Scahill: ‘Getting reports from #Haiti that #Blackwater is “protecting” at least one major US media outlet’s people.’

Re: Web browsers -

I recommend that no one uses IE (except for Windows Update). IE is notoriously insecure and the most targeted browser around, avoid like the plague.

Personally I use FireFox with a number of plugins. Adblock+ is essential for me, with such a slow internet connection, there’s no way I’m waiting for ads to download. Also, malware is often served up by dodgy ad companies. I also recommend NoScript for additional protection from malware. However it does take a bit more work to browse the web when using NoScript I think it is worth the effort for peace of mind. WOT is another good plugin for security. If privacy is a concern I recommend using the following plugins: BetterPrivacy, CS Lite, Ghostery and RequestPolicy. There are also a few other plugins I use, but they are based on personal preferences, not for security.

If you can’t get FireFox working, I would recommend Chrome. My biggest problem with Chrome is that Adblock only hides the ads, it does not prevent them from downloading like it does in FireFox.

Re: The Hurt Locker -

Seen it. I also had heard really good things about it before viewing it. However I didn’t think it was anything particularly special. I would say it was of similar quality to the British miniseries with James Nesbit last year. To be honest I don’t remember a great deal about the Hurt Locker.

This week I’m probably going to watch ‘The Messenger’ with Woody Harrelson, if anyone is interested I can post a short opinion.

I don’t recall having seen a decent war flick made recently. After watching ‘The Wire’ (easily the best TV made anywhere, ever. But you have to watch at least 3 or 4 episodes before you get the appeal), I had really high expectations for Generation Kill. After watching it, I was very disappointed. It wasn’t terrible, but compared to The Wire, it was very simplistic.

dreoilin:

I also think Blackwater (or at least some other merc company) is already in Haiti. I was watching the BBC last night (I can watch western TV once a week!) and one of the reporters was doing a piece to camera from the tarmac of Haiti’s airport. In the background a white guy in black t-shirt, pants and sunglasses and carrying a machine gun kept walking through the shot. It was obvious from his clothes that he didn’t belong to the military of any state.

CheebaCow: thanks for the info and advice on browsers. Yesterday’s story about IE has finally convinced me to ditch it. My past experience with Firefox was unsatisfactory so I’m going to give Safari a whirl.

Morning! Just catching up. Think it would be a shame if asoba got sidelined or attacked because he doesn’t believe the US government exploded the twin towers. I don’t believe they did either (thanks for the Building 7 explanation; seems quite reasonable). My mum on the other hand does, after watching a film on Channel 4. So what?

MJ,

I don’t know how long since you tried Firefox, maybe the latest version won’t have any problem.

I’ve installed Firefox 3.etc and 3.5.etc on XP_sp2 and sp3, and on Vista, many times, and never had any problems, so I expect this is a conflict with other software, or an issue with your particular installation of Windows. The Mozilla Knowledge Base is very good and you may find a solution there.

I’m moving over to Linux for ethical reasons. The more I experience Microsoft’s approach, the more I object to it.

Angrysoba,

I’ve found and made a copy of your e-mail address, thank you. You frazzeled me out last night. There was a nice little chat going on here, people were getting to know each other. You came in, and all you wanted to do was argue, in the same direction that you constantly argue. I really don’t know why you come here. I’ll e-mail you when I’m feeling stronger – it seems that I’ll have need of strength to converse with you.

Technicolour,

the trouble I’m having with Angrysoba is that he doesn’t seem open minded. More like he’s already decided what is true (not just about 911), and he’s determined to argue constantly to prove it. And he cheats, in a subtile way, so that you can’t definatively show it to be cheating. But the cumulative effect upon me is fatigue. Most people here I find uplifting. Angrysoba gets me down.

911 is an incredibly important and emotional topic. Your verdict on 911 defines your whole vision of modern history and global affairs. Expect people to be emotional, unreasonable and dogmatic. There’s a huge amount at stake.

Dreoilin and CheebaCow,

thanks for the Haiti info. More bad news for Haitians if mercenaries have arrived.

CheebaCow,

how come “[you] can watch western TV once a week!”? And why “CheebaCow”?

Clark, if I upset you then I’m sorry about that. It wasn’t my intention. You’ve been very hospitable here.

The idea that a government would attack its own people in a false-flag operation to gin up a war of choice is pretty incredible. Look up “Operation Northwoods”.

In case anyone doesn’t realise it, glenn is being ironic.

Angrysoba,

I’ll think better of you if you display more compassion and empathy. And considerably less certainty that you’ve already worked out everything that goes on in the world.

I know that this goes for others, but you are arguing from the same viewpoint as the MSM, so you have overwhelming back-up.

Alternative viewpoints generally get derided. Then some of them turn out to be true. You seem to ignore this.

And you exaggerate your opponents’ positions before arguing against them. Repeatedly. This is a very subtle and powerful technique.

The MSM and the Powers That Be shouldn’t really need another ‘Knight in Shining Armour’.

“For the record, Ritter was using a general chat room – as people often do – when a girl said she was in trouble in MacDonalds, being pursued by a couple of men.”

Glenn, are you really that stupid? That’s just not how it happened. And what was it this time? Did his webcam *accidentally* turn on for a scene of him spanking one out while being watched by someone he thought was a teenage girl?

It would be quite hilarious if the video of this encounter ever gets leaked. How would you twist the facts then, Glenn?

Angrysoba,

I suggest a personal experiment for you. Take your formidable logical powers, and point them in the opposite direction for a predetermined time; a month, say. It will take considerable self discipline to achieve this. I’m not asking you to publish the results. Just see where that takes you.

I’d also be interested to know why you use ‘Angry’ in your screen name. What are you so angry about?

Clark, I am all for investigative journalism and independent news sources but I am not going to give them a pass if they are spreading outright lies.

I don’t know which positions you think I am exaggerating in order to discredit, maybe I am being a tad hyperbolic at times, but sometimes things are clearly being inferred by some posters without being expressed directly.

It is tough and it seems to lead to a lot of angst if it involves probing at a major plank in someone’s worldview as no doubt we could accuse each other of being too beholden to our own established views and not open-minded enough.

Hold on, my mother got her point of view that the US government blew up the twin towers *from* the mainstream media.

I know about the Northwoods document. I even went so far as to check its existence with the US National Archives. It exists. Again, it does not prove anything about 9/11.

But my verdict on 9/11, MJ, has nothing to with anything. I worry about the idea that it should. Plenty of dedicated peace activists are not convinced by the truthers’ assertions. Why should it be a divisive issue, again?

“I’d also be interested to know why you use ‘Angry’ in your screen name. What are you so angry about?”

I’m not really. It was just a name I picked more or less at random when asked to register for a teaching forum about three or four years ago.

“I suggest a personal experiment for you. Take your formidable logical powers, and point them in the opposite direction for a predetermined time; a month, say. It will take considerable self discipline to achieve this. I’m not asking you to publish the results. Just see where that takes you. ”

Well, if you’re prepared to do the same…

Angrysoba,

I have the opposite problem from you. I’m so open minded I have to be careful that my brain doesn’t fall out!

More seriously, the change from Jehovah’s Witless to atheist (via various diverse destinations) is pretty radical. I often wonder just what it is I believe, and why.

“But my verdict on 9/11, MJ, has nothing to with anything”

Surely it informs your basic view of the “War on Terror”? If you basically accept the official account, then it is most likely that you see the WOT as a genuine response to 911. If you don’t accept the official account, you are more likely to see the WOT as the real objective (ie a pretext for imperialism in the mid east) and 911 as the tool to trigger it and give it a veneer of legitimacy.

I’m going to the pub now. When I get back I might change my handle to “goodnaturedtipsy”.

Clark:

I’m currently living on a Thai island and I haven’t connected my house to cable/satellite TV/internet. My girlfriend lives in the main town, so when I visit her on the weekends I can indulge and watch the BBC and other western channels.

As for CheebaCow, in Thai the word is used for senior monks. I also like the word because it has a definite double meaning for english speakers. CheebaCow also has a story behind it for me and my better half, but I won’t bore people here with the details.

RE: 911 being terrorism or false flag -

From a purely political perspective I’m kinda mystified when people get so worked up about which it was. If it was terrorism, its obviously blow-back from US policy in the middle east. If its false flag, then it was obvious justification for continuing and even increasing the existing policy in the middle east. In other words, if its blow-back the US should alter its imperialist policies, and if its false flag we shouldn’t allow it to be an excuse to continue the existing policies in an even more aggressive manner.

As glenn pointed out above with Operation Northwoods (also see Operation Gladio), the idea of a false flag isn’t exactly new. In my opinion 911 wasn’t particularly revolutionary in what happened (regardless of who did it) or how the US govt reacted to it. The only really new thing was just how much the US population shit themselves and how they allowed it to justify anything.

BTW I don’t have a real opinion as to who did 911. I feel that those arguing it was false flag ignore many aspects of the case, however I also think this is equally true for those arguing it was terrorism. So whenever I read about it, I don’t see intellectual honesty, just people using facts to suit their agenda. This gets boring very quickly.

Words fail me. What idiot would see the WOT as a ‘genuine response to 9/11′ – apart from the poor suckers who watch Fox News & try and believe in flying pigs and their government? As for ‘giving it a veneer of legitimacy’: well, they rather fucking failed on that one.

The millions over the world who marched; the relatives of the dead who begged for peace: they didn’t have to believe in the ‘truth movement’. Which is lucky since the ‘journalism’ around it has been appalling.

It may have started in the spirit of genuine enquiry but the 9/11 movement now seems to be a convenient way to splinter a heartfelt and very human response to atrocity, if you ask me.

sorry, that was me. Nice post, cheebacow, you put it much better. think I need to go to the pub too, MJ. Slainte!

MJ,

personally, I’m not as black – and – white about 911 as that. I was on the 2003 Peace March, and I hadn’t looked into 911 at all then.

It’s become a huge debating issue, and a distraction. There are lots of other, verified, false flag operations that most people have never heard of.

But I think it can reveal something to those who begin to doubt the official account about their own unconscious – er, ‘racism’ isn’t quite the right word.

The horror that results from questioning 911 orthodoxy is that ‘americans’ (or whoever) could do something like that TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE. They can do far worse to ‘outsiders’ and it doesn’t have the same emotional effect.

Sorry, I’m grappling to communicate a concept that I’ve only partly formulated myself, here.

Like, if any ‘americans’ were involved in that, then they weren’t showing an appropriate degree of in-group empathy, and there’s an instinctive horror to that.

Technicolour,

“What idiot would see the WOT as a ‘genuine response to 9/11′ – apart from the poor suckers who watch Fox News & try and believe in flying pigs and their government?”

Yes, well there are LOTS of them, sometimes even a voting majority, and far more frequently enough to swing an otherwise divided vote.

Crappy tabloids sell LOTS of copies.

Well formulated Clark. It’s interesting, having had a quick look at the Northwoods document again (haven’t since 2003), that it seems quite careful to insist on only killing innocent Cubans.

CheebaCow,

yes, very nice post; thanks. That’s pretty much my position on 911, too.

Further to my 2:22 post, what doesn’t seem to occur to the horrified is that ‘The Elite’ (ie those in positions of covert power) may not see ordinary citizens as part of their in-group.

That would be contrary to The American Dream, wouldn’t it?

Clark,

At least you’re thinking of the issues – but it does seem that you really don’t understand what we’ve learned about psychology over the years. I know you’re 46 or 47 years old, so you think that gives you some expertise in all matters, but I’m guessing that you’ve read nothing of experimental psychology or evolutionary psychology. There are some great resources out there.

Clark,

You don’t seem to understand is that “The Elite” – if it exists – is a very fluid concept in America. As it is in the U.K., of course, but more so in America.

If you think there’s a Star Chamber out there that wields covert power, then you’re getting into Alex Jones territory, which is something I suspect of everyone on this blog.

“When I visited Kurdistan, I was visiting someone, when a man came in with a green scarf, repeatedly mentioning Allah’s name.

He was provided with tea,food and money.

Many strange things are done in the name of religion and it gives religion a bad name.”

When I hitch-hiked around Morocco, every evening somebody from the nearest bunch of houses/tents/habitations would approach me and insist I come into their house & be given a bed for the night. It was somewhat embarrassing all round, I had no idea what they would find polite or rude, they probably had even less idea how to deal with a weird English hippy … but, clearly a refusal would offend, so we did it. Eventually I had enough words in common with someone to ask them why it was. Answer – to look after travellers is a religious obligation.

Many strange things are done in the name of religion and not all of them should be despised.

(In my more disgusted moments, I wonder what would happen to one of those Morroccan villagers hitch-hiking round Britain, and rather suspect it would be less of a positive experience).

“Truthers tend to focus on the WTC7 collapse, as it had not been hit by a plane. The Kean Commission seemed to share their puzzlement, as their report omitted mention of it.”

Truthers are just incredible. You know, Dr. Judy Wood has strenuously attempted to make the case that laser beams demolished the Towers. Also, Charles Pegelow, one of the few actual structural engineers (perhaps the only one) at Architects & Engineers for 911 Truth, believes that nuclear weapons might have brought down the Towers.

With your idiot logic, since the Commission did not mention these hypotheses, it must mean that these assertions caused them “puzzlement.”

“Let’s imagine that the floors around the point of impact are not damaged or weakened as NIST claim, but entirely and instantaneously vanish. The part of the building above this space (about 10 floors) drops on to the part of the building below (about 90 floors) and crushes it out of existence, falling at a speed little slower than free-fall. This is the physics of a Road Runner cartoon – perhaps Wile E. Coyote was piloting the plane?”

That’s exactly what didn’t happen, you fucking moron. How dumb are you? Are you so stupid that you don’t account for the massive fires caused by the burning jet fuel? Do you understand that the building was weakened by falling and burning jet fuel?

Jesus you people really do live in cartoons.

Vronsky, if you want to grow up a bit and stop being manipulated by American right-wing conspiracy theorists, you can start here:

http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18

Related to what Clark was writing about the American revulsion to the idea that their own elites may have been involved; My experience talking to Americans is that of all nationalities, they are the most likely to assume their government is inherently good. I think this is generally true of all the big western states, but the US takes it to the most extreme. There are so many assumptions made that the way their world view is framed it doesn’t even really allow for the idea of the state being anything but perfect in intent (but maybe not in execution).

Having travelled a lot, it was initially a real eye opener as to how politically astute people in the developing world are. I was in Thailand when 911 occurred, and was in India less than a month after. I was shocked when beggars would approach me to talk international politics (it also shamed me greatly that these same beggars were fluent in 12 languages while I barely manage to use 1). Basically people in the developing world know their government is self interested and corrupt, and assume that is true the world over, which it is, although it can take various forms.

Larry: “You don’t seem to understand is that “The Elite” – if it exists – is a very fluid concept in America.”

Really? George W earned his position as President of the US? The US almost had Bush(4) – Clinton(8) – Bush(8) – Clinton(?) for the last 4 Presidents and your trying to argue there isn’t an elite? That could of been up to 28 years of rule by 2 families (instead it was a mere 20 years). What about Senators and Congress? Are they your typical Americans or do they come from wealth that most could never aspire to?

Fine debating style, Larry. If there were any doubters here before, you’ll certainly have made up their minds now. Thank you for so succinctly identifying the side of the argument that employs reason.

OK I’ll give you GWB. But Clinton – he grew up a poor fatherless kid in a shithole in Arkansas. Obama grew up fatherless as well (you neglected to mention Obama).

Representatives tend not to be elitist – anyone can and does get elected to the House. The Senate does attract a lot of big names, but it has its share of self-made persons – in fact, I’d guess that self-made people account for the majority of the Senate (clearly this is the case for the House).

“wealth that most could never aspire to?” – As I’m surrounded by many self-made upper-middle class people, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

@cheebacow

You might find this review of Avatar interesting.

tinyurl.com/ybshwoy

Vronsky,

As to the phone calls, do you realize that you’ve told us nothing? At best, you’ve pointed out a few anomalies. What exactly is your position? You nuts have had 8 1/2 years to come up with some sort of cohesive narrative, and you’ve provided nothing.

OK, so I take it that you believe that the Towers were pre-planted with explosives. So you’re that type of conspiracy theorist.

But what do the phone calls of the Pentagon flight have to do with it? Were the phone calls faked using some secret James Bond technology? And if the SECRET ELITE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. was so brilliant to wire the Towers ahead of the planes, why did they trip up in faking the phone calls?

You’re a conspiracy nut. You’ll be arguing the same stupidity for many years to come.

‘theThing’ is in particularly insidious form today eh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41UAnkQARFs

Thats a video of Bin Laden that was shown to a roomfull of journalists in a White House press conference just after 9/11. I remember watching it on BBC news at the time and seeing clearly that the guy in the video looked nothing like the other pictures of Bin Laden that were released. There really is no doubt at all that it is a video of a different person, yet it wasnt questioned, like the emperors clothes? Later people discussing it online where saying they couldnt tell because it was too blurred and they werent experts in ‘facial recognition’. But you can tell, it does take any expertese, it just takes an evolved sapien ability to differentiate between different faces, which almost everyone possesses…

The whole thing was just a huge headfuck, but I think there is little point in revisiting it until there are definitive physical simulations of the collapses to cut through all the bullshit. It is frustrating to see perception warped so effectively.

crab (and others) – you strike me as a person / people who’ve never heard an argument against your nutjob positions. That is, you see something wacky on the Internets, and you automatically believe the something wacky if it fits into your preconceived political views.

That makes you quite vulnerable to manipulation.

The answers to these things are out there. You just have to mature a bit and educate yourselves.

Larry -

My point was that when 2 families almost succeed in holding 4 successive Presidencies it strongly indicates that elites do exist. The Bush family is obviously part of the elite, much like the Kennedys. I didn’t mention Obama because he isn’t a member of the Clinton of Bush family. How about Kerry and McCain, both are ridiculously rich compared to the avg US citizen.

“About two-thirds of United States senators were millionaires in 2008″

{economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/your-senator-is-probably-a-millionaire/}

“The wealth of the incoming class will hardly raise eyebrows in the Senate, where about half of the current 100 members are also millionaires and the average net worth is $8.9 million

{forbes.com/2006/11/17/senate-politics-washington-biz-wash_cx_jh_1120senate.html}

“In the House of Representatives, the median net worth was about $684,000, with 39 percent of members having net worths estimated to be at least $1 million. By contrast, only about 1 percent of all American adults can be considered millionaires.”

{opensecrets.org/news/2008/10/as-economic-storm-brewed-congr.html}

I don’t think there are too many millionaires that visit these forums on a regular basis.

Paraphrasing ‘thething from saint looee’ wrote:

You are naive

** That makes you quite vulnerable to manipulation **

You are imature and poorly educated

wooOOhhHHH %}

lol

Vronsky -

I watched Avatar in 3D and was totally blown away by it. Not since Terminator 2 have I actually been impressed by special effects. Fuck me, with some of the wide shots of just the alien world rendered in full 3D (complete with alien mosquitoes buzzing around) I literally got goose bumps, exactly like if I had climbed to the top of a mountain to be greeted by an amazing view in real life.

I don’t see why you would view the movie as racist unless you think colonialism is only practised by the west and if you think westerners are inherently imperialist.

Anyway I gotta log off, I’m gonna get my arse kicked if I keep using my laptop in bed =P

The US Senate and most of the House are deeply, systemically corrupt. Anyone can become a rep? – well, yeah, if they’re prepared to sell their ass to some corporate demon. America as a nation has been thoroughly gangbanged by the rich for decades, reducing it to a raddled whore looked after by a bloated and brutal military (and militarised police force).

Oh, yeah, and if Amurrica is such a shining beacon and example to us all, why is it that most of the countries surrounding it (apart from Canada) are basket cases? Haiti is a case in point, gouged, beaten and raped by the Duvaliers (with Washingtons backing) then by the IMF (with Washington’s backing). Mmm, taste that savoury smell of the Elite’s dish of violence and despair.

“Anyone can become a rep? – well, yeah, if they’re prepared to sell their ass to some corporate demon.”

That’s fundamentally not true. Strict monitoring exists for campaign donations and kickbacks. Certainly there are cases of corruption, and, if found out (as has happened recently), these guys go to jail.

Vronsky,

That’s an insightful film review. I’d appreciate links for (a) The FBI report for the Moussaoui trial and (b) the comment on NIST’s site from Victoria University, Melbourne – though NIST had to do a second analysis, didn’t they?

Richard Robinson,

thanks for your travel experiences. The better aspects of human morality are often incorporated into religions.

Having suffered it myself, it’s indoctrination of children I’m most opposed to.

CheebaCow,

thanks for your experiences of other lands, too. You needn’t have responded to Larry; he interpreted my term ‘The Elite’ as the government, when I had specified ‘covert power’. Thanks for the summary of wealt / US power. I hope I opst this in time, Bye!

—

Further to my 2:22 and 2:28, it seems something similar has happened in the UK. I doubt that New Labour would have approved the removal of civil liberties or increases of surveillance that we’ve seen if they felt that they or their families would be subject to them.

Glenn,

from way back, Jan 15,11:33; “Nobody is calling for the… police to be privitised for very obvious reasons” – some privatisation is happening, with the increase in private security, and the increased powers granted to such.

“By contrast, only about 1 percent of all American adults can be considered millionaires.”

CheebaCow, with such statistics, you have to make sure that apples are being compared to apples. That is, they’re probably counting home value as an asset for the congresspersons, but not counting it for the general population. With home value counted – before the recent issues – something like 7% of American households are deemed to be millionaire households.

Also, CheebaCow, do you know why McCain and Kerry are so wealthy?

Vronsky,

further to the ‘Avatar’ review, have you read ‘Lila’, by Robert M. Pirsig, author of ‘Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance’? Interesting stuff about Native Americans and the origins of the principle of freedom as a US concept.

1% vs 7%

So, only in the top 93% as opposed to the top 99%.

Well I suppose that’s OK then.

“Also, CheebaCow, do you know why McCain and Kerry are so wealthy?”

Is McCain anything to do with the frozen potato products of that name that UK supermarkets are full of ?

Honest question; I wonder, and don’t know.

(I really really hope that Kerry isn’t the butter. That bit’s intended as a joke.)

No, actually, but Kerry is rich because of ketchup! (catsup?)

Both of them married into money. McCain met his very wealthy wife in a bar and thereafter divorced his other wife.

Teresa Heinz lost her husband Senator Heinz in a plane crash, and John Kerry stepped in and married her. I think Kerry had some family wealth, but his wealth mostly stems from his wife’s Heinz food products money.

Could happen to anyone – just gotta be in the right place at the right time.

..why fascinating cleverThing

@clark

Victoria University comments on WTC7 report: tinyurl dot com slash ygedhsl (PDF)

FBI exhibits on phone calls: tinyurl dot com slash yl28y49 (ZIP)

A detailed analysis of the FBI evidence by David Ray Griffin: tinyurl dot com slash yl8gz59

No, I haven’t read Lila, although I did read ‘Zen’ years ago. Really up to my ears in reading just now, but will keep an eye out for it. Actually at the moment reading ‘Joseph’s Box’ by Suhayl Saadi, who occasionally posts here. Quite weird, but if you liked Zen it might appeal to you – tinyurl dotcom slash yzeytuh

Beautiful day; beautiful walk. Hope everyone had equally good time. Here’s a short small counter to fear (it gets v good in the middle):

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24365.htm

This makes post number 300 on a blog entry which said nothing!

Clark – Having suffered it myself, it’s indoctrination of children I’m most opposed to.”

Yes, but. We’ve got to teach them something, and how would it not be what we think ourselves ?

Which is not to disagree with you, just to complicate things. I’ve seen children being brought up with attitudes I felt were wrong, but … is ‘indoctrination’ any more than a way of saying that we don’t like the ‘doctrine’ in question ? Teaching a child to avoid all doctrines would itself be indoctrination, to someone who accepts one of the doctrines the child is being taught to avoid.

Or is there more ? A question of intensity, importance, something like that ?

Personally, I’m distrustful of the cult-style “us against the world” beliefs, and favour the ones that encourage us to regard other different groups as being composed of people who can probably be got along with mostly, but I don’t really see that as a religious issue. It’s not a very snappy slogan, either.

Some great stuff on the theologian David Ray Griffin:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/search?q=david+ray+griffin

Clark – Having suffered it myself, it’s indoctrination of children I’m most opposed to.”

Yes, but. We’ve got to teach them something, and how would it not be what we think ourselves ?

etc etc. Sorry, I let my name get lost. ’twas I, gentle reader.

Honest, watch it, it’s sweet:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24365.htm

Clark, is Loughton on Tuesday evening possible?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24365.htm

yip!

I’ve seen those. Makes you proud to be British.

well, in my case, proud to be a human

GLENN, I am sympathetic to your argument as it relates to water utilities. I personally believe that water should be provided free by the municipality as it used to be.

But you do make an interesting point with your comment “Competition is always hailed as a great benefit to customers, but corporations tend to amalgamate”. My view is that Governments should exercise a responsibility to ensure that no amalgamation adversely affects competition. I go beyond just laisey fair (spelling?). I think it is government’s role to be proactive to ensure the health of the free markets. And where one can’t have free markets and the discipline they impose, then the utility companies should be very well regulated to ensure that they serve the customer properly.

I recognize that there are many excellent managers in the public sector, and that there are poor ones in the private sector. But, competitive markets provide a mechanism that eventually corrects bad management in the private sector, since if they continue with bad management practices they will go out of business. However, how do you deal with poor management in the public sector? Control and oversight by politicians? My recent experiences with our political masters have not greatly impressed me.

############

Your comment on Ritter and how they smeared him was very instructive.

It fits so well with the SMEAR approach that CARTOONIST referred to (Jan 13 6.14 PM comment on Craig’s Greek Orthodox blog) as a definition of Zersetzung (which I misspell as ZERZETSEN).

It is worth just recalling what CARTOONIST said. He writes ?” “It’s about manipulating people or groups of people by typical STASI methods (hearsay, gossip, lies, spreading rumours about someone … the list goes on. It’s basically what has been done to Craig by the UK Government, funnily enough, although I fail to see the funny side)”.

As a decades long victim of zerzetsen, I don’t see the funny side either.

In Ritter’s case it appears to be the FBI that is involved. But, it is certainly not unique to the FBI. As author and academic Stephen Dorril writes in the last chapter of his book “MI6″, MI6 has a dirty tricks section (I/OPS) that does indeed deliberately spread smears about innocent people ?” as I know only too well.

########

Tragically once the security services have invoked zerzetsen smears, it can lead on to full blown zerzetsen – torture and threats. WHY? Because eventually some victims will start speaking out with the truth. The purpose of the threats is to try and stop this. The threateners are more comfortable where their slanderous smears run without any opposition from their victim. In my case the threats kept me silent for years, before I crossed the Rubicon and started speaking out. But, even if you speak out, zerzetsen has a secondary benefit to its perpetrators and that is witness intimidation. In fact as some, perhaps Ruth, may understand ?” where zerzetsen is practiced by the intelligence services ?” it scares off lawyers as well. Indeed as my case so clearly demonstrates, the politicians are scared of their own intelligence services.

Just on some other people’s questions. I am a 63-year-old Chartered Accountant, married to a former schoolteacher and we were both born in Glasgow. We live in Calgary, Canada.

So, Roderick, basically you’re saying that Scott Ritter should have open season on young teenage girls.

So Larry, basically you’re saying that everyone should be forced to have sex with donkies. What is this blog coming to?

No, I’m not saying that.

Roderick and others here seem to think that Scott Ritter must be innocent because of his past problems with the Bush administration. As such, it doesn’t matter what he does – he’ll always be innocent.

It will be funny to see Scott Ritter NOT bring up a government conspiracy in his defense. I mean, if you were entirely innocent, and suddenly the state were bringing up these sorts of charges against you, wouldn’t you want to put the system on trial? Wouldn’t you enlist the support of everyone you could in protesting at the court house?

In any event, that won’t happen. He’ll take the plea and do some time. Probably like six months.

He’ll never bring up your kooky conspiracy.

What is this unhealthy obsession with Scott Ritter’s sex life, Larry? He is innocent until proven guilty. That’s all you, or anyone, needs to know.

PS did you watch the video?

Hi Clark… you wrote (concerning police and privitisation): “some privatisation is happening, with the increase in private security, and the increased powers granted to such.”

I apologise for being imprecise. I meant nobody is _calling_ for it, not that it isn’t happening to some degree. And by “nobody”, I meant people generally, rather than some politicians for ideological reasons, and of course security firms who stand to benefit.

*

Very good day to have been out walking for a few hours, particularly down around on the coast. Even better, we didn’t have to drive to get there (it – the sea – being a 10 minute walk away).

*

Strange that the most shrill and abusive “arguments” (if they can truly be graced with such a term) on the Demolition Day 9/11 debate comes from those pumping the government’s case. If one is convinced they are in full possession of the facts, why get some angry and upset at those who disagree?

One point often forgotten by True Believers in the government’s case – the Magic Arab Theory if you will – is that every last point in the Official Story has be to be correct. There is no need for the Truthers to come up with a watertight alternative theory, as desperately as True Believers would like them to do so. All the Truthers need to do is point out the huge discrepancies in the Magic Arab Theory, and the Official Story is shot through.

For instance, just point out that the Magic Arabs could not, in fact, fly at all. Or that all the jet fuel in the world would not melt as much as a padlock, less still hundreds of tons of interconnected steel that acts as an enormous heatsink. Particularly when it’s burned in an oxygen-starved fire (which one can tell because of all that dirty smoke). Or that these were not practicing Muslims, as required in the official Magic Arab story. Or that a couple of small guys with 1″ blades could take a control of the planes from well-trained ex-forces pilots. Or that 1/2 million tons of steel and concrete apparently provided barely more resistance than air to a collapsing structure. And that enormous explosions occurred in the basement, killing many, were witnessed and reported on.

Or indeed any of the multitude of serious problems in the Official Theory, which is even rejected by John Farmer, Senior Counsel and drafter of the 9/11 Commissions Report. All the Truther has to do is point to any of that and say, no – the Official Story doesn’t fly. So regardless of how belligerently a True Believer pushes the Magic Arab Theory, the government case must be treated as so dubious as to not even pass the laugh test.

Technicolour,

Tues evening should be possible. I’ll say “yes” for now, though I may have to cancel suddenly. Where in particular and what time? If you can pick somewhere that dogs are permitted, that’d be helpful.

I’ve been out and I’m catching up with comments

“There is no need for the Truthers to come up with a watertight alternative theory, as desperately as True Believers would like them to do so. All the Truthers need to do is point out the huge discrepancies in the Magic Arab Theory, and the Official Story is shot through.”

Glenn, you silly goose. You need to go back and take a remedial course in the scientific method.

I’m just curious – why does the “Magic Arab Theory” require them to be non-practicing Muslims?

Glenn,

one of the things that unites all of the various 911 truthers is that they get EVERYTHING wrong. They’ll point out

complete lies like “enormous explosions” “in the basement, killing many” which are based on the statements of LIARS like Rodriguez. There is NOTHING that cannot be explained. Which is actually not true of all conspiracy theories.

Glenn, in any event, you don’t seem like a very smart person. I really wonder what it’s like to be someone who’s full of anti-American hatred but is nonetheless being manipulated by the crazy right wing of America. You just seem pretty useless to any serious political debate or political movement.

Richard Robinson,

yes, intensity etc matters. Jehovah’s Witnessism includes three one hour sessions in the week, another two at the weekend, an hour’s one-to-one Watchtower study, plus time ‘on the doors’, preaching.

Classic indoctrination techniques are used – read the paragraph, get asked the questions beneath it, parrot back the right sentences. Lots of repetition.

But the beliefs are also insidious – “Believe this, or you will die at Armageddon, which is coming soon”.

We can teach ordinary things without indoctrination. If religious beliefs are taught (I think they shouldn’t be), they can be taught as a set of balancing alternatives, rather than “This is true, all who believe differently have been misled and have false beliefs, and will suffer for it”.

Crab,

I love that video. I want to join in!

Glenn,

no apology necessary, as you did say ‘calling for’, I think. But the government seem to be in favour (probably because it means that less funding needs to go to the police) as they have proposed increased powers for these private security agents.

The stuff Larry writes could easily be refuted, but it’s not worth wearing that much plastic off my keyboard.

Clark, you couldn’t refute anything I’ve written.

Larry,

no, I will bother to answer you.

You keep calling Glenn stupid. OK, let’s assume that Glenn is much less intelligent than you.

Now, what do you call a clever person that keeps calling someone stupid? What do you call a strong person that keeps calling less strong people ‘weed’ or ‘weakling’? Do I need to tell you, or can you answer it for yourself? Do you call them honest, or something else?

I’ve pointed this sort of thing out to you before. I think you need to take a good look at yourself.

Glenn writes things like Demolition Day 9/11, and cites dumb claims from years ago that have been thoroughly debunked. He’s being offensive to the truth and the victims of violence. In any event, he’s an arrogant asshole who thinks he knows so much more than those around him because of something he once read on the internet. I think I have wide birth.

Look, does it really matter? I have a feeling that all of this is successfully distracting us from what’s happening now, on our streets, in our parliaments. Richard Shepherd, one of last year’s candidates for Speaker, was telling people until he was blue in the face (well, he was a Tory) that Parliament is being eroded, that its powers are being taken away, but nobody was listening. I campaigned on the LLRB and it was the same story. As for the States, Larry, Obama looks like he’s in trouble, doesn’t he? What’s the alternative?

Clark, it’s funny how you get whiny and soft-chinned with things that I write, while you let blatant anti-Jew posters and pro-Muslim-takeover-of-the-UK posters go uncriticized.

For instance, you didn’t have a problem with Steelback’s following:

“The “team”-Eddie,Larry the Lamb,technidick,and angribollockbrain et al are on the payroll of a guy in the Chicago mafia around Obama,by the name of Cass Sunstein and in Israel,of Erez Halfon.”

Larry,

you don’t know that I didn’t have a problem, only that I remained silent.

Technicolour’s question looks good…

In what way does Obama look like he’s in trouble?

“Look, does it really matter? I have a feeling that all of this is successfully distracting us from what’s happening now, on our streets, in our parliaments.”

http://tinyurl.com/y9g6zp3

George, that same sort of crap was brought up when Bush was President. And when Clinton was President. Etc.

You might be paranoid of the New World Order, but I’m not.

Re abusive posts, Larry, do you know the phrase ‘being sent to coventry’?

Thanks for posting that, George, it made me feel all fuzzy and warm and safe. I like the thought of big men with guns protecting me from – er.

Clark – “Classic indoctrination techniques are used – read the paragraph, get asked the questions beneath it, parrot back the right sentences. Lots of repetition.”

Well, but lots of teaching is like that. Don’t many people get taught reading, writing and ‘rithmetic that way ?

“But the beliefs are also insidious – “Believe this, or you will die at Armageddon, which is coming soon”.”

Ah. The three other Rs, it’s ‘Believe this or or you’ll never get anywhere in the world, you’ll probably starve’ ? But there is more concensus that those are necessary, there are no alternative methods. We _can_ teach “Comparative religion”, but “Alternative arithmetic” isn’t a viable subject (cf. George Orwell

I should say, perhaps, that I don’t have any points to make or axes to grind, I’m just wondering. There _are_ things that I believe children should’t be taught because they’re wrong. But, how to draw the line …

Larry – “Could happen to anyone – just gotta be in the right place at the right time.”

Sure. In a bar frequented by massively rich women.

Technicolour,

what is the LLRB, and do you have a link, please?

Hello, I think one the main things about children is that they learn by example. “Do as I say, don’t do as I do” doesn’t really cut it for a kid.

Can’t imagine what it would be like to believe in Armageddon: Hindus seem to shrug it off, and most UK Christians just ignore what are clearly the shroom crazed ramblings of a paranoiac (Revelations). Seems to be on the increase, though.

Re: 8:03

I don’t agree with those teaching ‘incentives’ (threats) anyway. Teaching should follow curiosity. Arithmetic can be introduced as a tool.

I don’t think you need to ‘draw a line’ as such; conforming to rules rather than using sound judgement is degrading many institutions. But if you insist on a ‘line’, well, death threats to four year olds should certainly be beyond it.

Actually, you probably can teach comparative maths, with a bit of ingenuity, but I don’t see any need.

8:19 cont…

I can honestly say that NONE of my school lessons were as mindless as Watchtower study.

“Re: The Hurt Locker -

Seen it …I didn’t think it was anything particularly special …”

–CheebaCow

Thanks for the response, CC. I hear it’s likely to win a Golden Globe (tonight?) and even an Oscar, maybe. Interesting that you weren’t taken with it either. I can’t write much as my DSL is seriously on the blink. BT tell me my phone line has a ‘fault’. Maybe it’s tapped!!! [j/k] I’ll be lucky if I get this posted.

“This week I’m probably going to watch ‘The Messenger’ with Woody Harrelson, if anyone is interested I can post a short opinion.”

Always interested in a quick film review.

“I also think Blackwater (or at least some other merc company) is already in Haiti …”

Was watching Channel 4 News a while ago. Apparently the US has brought in thousands of troops + supplies — for the troops — but no aid so far. Jon Snow said that (other) aid agency flights were diverted when H Clinton was arriving …

back anon

Clark, it was the Legislative & Regulatory Reform Bill. It’s been a while since I looked at it, and actually, the campaign against it did well, on reflection. As the Bill stood it gave any minister the power to amend, repeal or introduce primary or secondary legislation by order for any purpose. In fact, it gave that power to ‘any person’. It was being rushed through disguised as a bill to de-regulate businesses, and it passed its first session in the Commons without opposition. By the end, and after lawyers and commentators had been screaming, it is widely believed to have been properly amended. See SaveParliament.org for more details. And I will go & look at the final amendments, in fact.

Hi Clark: There are some very interesting lectures on Jehovah’s Witnesses on Minnesota Atheists’ site. Listened to them some time back, but they’d probably be that much more interesting for someone like yourself with the same experience.

http://mnatheists.org … look at the ‘Podcast’ tab at the top…

Podcasts of interest:

“Cults, Part 2″, 3/1/08

“Natural Atheism” , 3/9/09

“Chosen Atheism”, also 3/9/09

If you can’t find it, let me know and I can AIM you my own copies.

Glenn,

thanks. However, this is no longer an issue for me. I’ve only mentioned it recently because the matter came up in conversation. So long as they don’t come knocking on my door…

(which they don’t, any more).

Clark: “I have the opposite problem from you. I’m so open minded I have to be careful that my brain doesn’t fall out!”

I don’t know what your definition of “open-minded” is but I don’t think it is healthy to suspend all judgment indefinitely.

I can’t be agnostic about whether a bus is going to knock me down in the street if I walk in front of it.

“I suggest a personal experiment for you. Take your formidable logical powers, and point them in the opposite direction for a predetermined time; a month, say. It will take considerable self discipline to achieve this. I’m not asking you to publish the results. Just see where that takes you.”

But you have ruled out doing the same which suggests a double standard on your part.

And I don’t believe it takes “discipline” to achieve. It takes SELF-DECEPTION as it would involve trying to force myself to conclude the opposite of what I believe. As I said, that is not healthy.

Regarding 9/11 I have explained how I came to the conclusion I did. It wasn’t through some dogmatic parroting of the “official line” but through reading information about it and assessing the evidence on both sides. The fact is that the “evidence” on the side of the Truthers is all but non-existent. Their methods are dishonest and their arguments are incoherent. I cannot apply my rigourous logical skills to make those facts go away.

“More seriously, the change from Jehovah’s Witless to atheist (via various diverse destinations) is pretty radical. I often wonder just what it is I believe, and why.”

Well, I went from Catholicism to atheism. It wasn’t a CHOICE but my inability to find any evidential or coherent basis for Catholicism. Perhaps your departure from Jehova’s Witnessism came from a dictate of reason rather than a choice about what to believe.

Besides, I have noticed a lot of ideas being thrown around here as if they were self-evidently true but which strike me as completely unexamined. Many of the Truthers here seem to believe in the “false flag” theory out of faith. Their evidence doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It was remarked that Britain is a horrible place to be a Muslim. I think it is probably one of the best places to be a Muslim (I believe this from talking to Muslims who find their home countries of Sudan, Egypt, Iran etc… too oppressive). It is remarked here that Americans are all thick and can’t understand irony, and it is ironically parrotted moronically as if it were a gospel truth. It is suggested that Americans are ruled over by a class of apparatchiks and that it is a racist and elitist Hellhole. America has nothing like the inequality of countries that are bewilderingly supported by Leftists as some kind of bulwark against “imperialism” (this “imperialism” is often nothing more than prosperous democratic states).

Remember Fidel Castro saying that America would never elect a black president because it is incorrigibly racist. That’s rich! When was the last time ANYONE was elected president of Cuba?

Again at the beginning of this thread (Hi folks BTW) – Roderick tells us of his alarming and disturbing ‘harassment’ which is of course at one end of the spectrum with ‘torture’ at the other, by as he says British secret services (MI5/6 CSIS).

I have to ask just two questions Roderick, that worry me:

1. Did you leave your somewhat senior position on friendly terms with the ‘board’ or your boss{s} or in other words, did you leave because of dispute/threats/malpractice/sexual harassment/violence or breach of confidentiality?

2. Did you acquire some knowledge of, or did you witness, or were you told something in the course of your employment that, if revealed would:

(a) Breach/Damage/jeopardise/embarrass National security?

(b)Embarrass/vilify/persecute/undermine any member of the Royal family?

(c) Embarrass/ etc any Lord or Knight of the Realm?

Thank-you for your honest answers.

Ad break (I’m watching Troy)

Angrysoba, I don’t quite see how you can generalise about this board. Opinions on 9/11 vary, sometimes wildly. MJ is understandably suspicious of the official narrative; CheebaCow points out that either way the results are the same; Clark doesn’t quite know what to believe; Glenn seems to be convinced by the ‘truth’ movement’ and so on. Can we drop it now?

By the way, as far as ‘prosperous democratic states’ go, isn’t Detroit bankrupt? Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008? How much have the attacks cost them?

Hi technicolour,

Since you mentioned 9/11 – I’ll throw in this – I recorded and reviewed all the NORAD tapes and believe that a charge of ‘derelict of duty’ is long overdue for the Chiefs of Staff. This considering flight 77′s unusual path mean’t in was air-bourne for around 44 minutes.

I have studied the radar data and the flight data and the two do not match, indeed they are both very confusing and illogical if we consider the planes were manned and flown by suicidal terrorists.

technicolour: One slight correction, if I may. What is the consensus of the ‘Truth movement’ ? If I might be so bold, there isn’t one. The only common feature is that the Official Story is less than satisfactory, and a proper enquiry should be held. Given the risible manner in which the 9/11 Commissions Report was undertaken, I do not see that calling for a full, independent enquiry could be considered unreasonable – particularly given the 9/11 CR was the only enquiry conducted to date, and key participants of that say it’s rubbish.

Here Here Glen well said!

Mark, it is enough for me to know that the horror of 9/11 was used as an excuse to attack a completely unprotected country (Afghanistan) and a completely unprotected and unconnected country (Iraq).

By the way, it seems the attacks have cost the US taxpayer around a trillion dollars so far, and counting.

Sorry, don’t mean to sound dismissive. I know about PNAC too. I know there were people who wanted something like this to happen.

technicolour.. you might well be wise enough to figure that out. How many of the mouth-breathers who just nodded their heads, as the stenographers, sorry, the crack White House press corps swallowed the lies fed by Bush-co. How many people wanted to kick-ass in revenge, and how many Arabs have suffered and/or died as a result on this supposed vengeance? So it’s pretty darned important to know the truth, since everything that has been allowed to follow has done so on the basis that the Official Story was true.

The fact that some well read individuals know the GWOT is a nonsense is not, therefore, enough in itself.

“the Official Story” is another canard of the failed 911 “truth” “movement.” There is no official story.

At some point people like Glenn have to admit that they’re not interested in the outcome of another inquiry. NIST dedicated a great deal of time to come up with the best explanation for the collapse of Building 7, and – as predicted – NOT ONE TRUTHER gave credit to the findings of NIST. The same would be true of another investigation – the outcome would be that 19 Muslim Arab hijackers committed the attacks, and truthers like Glenn will still be annoying people.

Clark – I’ve been out drinking & playing tunes with people, I’ve lost the train of thought. But, your “8.03″, “8.19″ references made me think – it _is_ hard keeping track of who said what, especially when a thread sprawls like this (I hope Craig’s having an interrsting time in Ghana ?) :- I’ve seen some blogs where the comments are numbered, so that people can refer to previous comments just by quoting that number. I wonder if that would be helpful here ? Could it be done ? Heh. I bet Craig’s not going to read this far down, poor sod. Catching up is hard to do.

Glenn, do you think you’re smarter than Barack Obama? Do you think you know more about the U.S. government?

To clue you in – Obama has no time for your silly conspiracy theories.

Maybe you’ve adopted the position of the American right-wing truthers (the only truthers left in the States) – Obama is also part of the NWO, and he knows all about the U.S. government having committed 911.

“isn’t Detroit bankrupt?”

Yes.

“Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008?”

No.

Oh for heaven’s sake Larry, if Obama did think the US gov did 9/11, do you think he’d tell you? Honestly, stop stirring, you’re getting dull.

Glenn: “Given the risible manner in which the 9/11 Commissions Report was undertaken, I do not see that calling for a full, independent enquiry could be considered unreasonable – particularly given the 9/11 CR was the only enquiry conducted to date, and key participants of that say it’s rubbish.”

A lot of Truthers like to make out that there are a number of politicians and people who worked on the commission that share their views. There aren’t. They complain about certain CYA activities and the possibility of political bias. The 9/11 Commission was never going to satisfy everyone given that some people on the right wanted to see the Clinton administration roasted and some people on the left wanted to see people in the Bush administration roasted.

Truthers pretend that this, in itself, undermines what they, and they alone, call the “official story” and think that if they can throw up enough dust they’ll convene a new commission who will release a new report saying the 19 guys hijacked planes and flew them into buildings (a report they won’t even bother reading although they might buy the David Ray Griffin book of the report).

“Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008?”

No.

According to the USDA (and PBS, CBS, USA today, CNN etc etc) they did.

“if Obama did think the US gov did 9/11, do you think he’d tell you?”

Are you even entertaining the possibility that Obama and Rahm Emanuel think that 911 was an inside job, but they’re keeping it secret? Chomsky pointed out that if it were ever found out, it would be the end of the Republican Party for at least 50 years. So … Emanuel is doing whatever he can to turn some key Congressional districts … but you think the Obama Administration has decided to just let this one go.

Truthers are funny people.

More generalisations and blurgh from asoba, now. I don’t see they help, really. And it’s so easy to attack people, huh. Goodnight.

No, Larry, I’m saying you’re running out of things to say to resort to such non-sequiteurs. That’s because it’s all been said before, at length, tediously.

Hello angrysoba: With all due respect, you’re arguing against a position nobody – here at least – is taking. With the same respect, you are rather fond of doing this.

“By the way, as far as ‘prosperous democratic states’ go, isn’t Detroit bankrupt? Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008? How much have the attacks cost them?”

I don’t know where you get the figure of 49 million but no one said that the US was some Shangri-La. There is a world-wide recession on at present so it isn’t as if very many places are doing particularly well.

It just comes across as another irrelevant potshot as in the style of the commenter gleefully brandishing a Huff Post link that blamed the US for the crisis in Haiti. Don’t you think some of these attempts at point-scoring look a little unseemly at times?

CheebaCow said of 9/11, who cares who did it. If it was an attack then the US got what they deserved anyway.

“From a purely political perspective I’m kinda mystified when people get so worked up about which it was. If it was terrorism, its obviously blow-back from US policy in the middle east.”

In fact, it matters a great deal who was responsible. What are the grievances by those who orchestrated the attacks? The fact that the US had bases in Saudi Arabia? What kind of justification is that?

According to ALL FEDERAL AND STATE GOV’T AGENCIES (and PBS, CBS, USA today, CNN etc etc), 911 was not an inside job and 19 Muslim Arabs managed to bring about the death and destruction of 911.

“No, Larry, I’m saying you’re running out of things to say to resort to such non-sequiteurs. That’s because it’s all been said before, at length, tediously.”

Truthers are defeated on every single point that they raise about 911.

“Hello angrysoba: With all due respect, you’re arguing against a position nobody – here at least – is taking. With the same respect, you are rather fond of doing this.”

This is the same Glenn of the “Official Story” that he dubs “The Magic Arab Theory”? If that isn’t a desperate attempt at strawmanning then I don’t know what is.

It continues, however…

“For instance, just point out that the Magic Arabs could not, in fact, fly at all. Or that all the jet fuel in the world would not melt as much as a padlock, less still hundreds of tons of interconnected steel that acts as an enormous heatsink. Particularly when it’s burned in an oxygen-starved fire (which one can tell because of all that dirty smoke). Or that these were not practicing Muslims, as required in the official Magic Arab story. Or that a couple of small guys with 1″ blades could take a control of the planes from well-trained ex-forces pilots. Or that 1/2 million tons of steel and concrete apparently provided barely more resistance than air to a collapsing structure. And that enormous explosions occurred in the basement, killing many, were witnessed and reported on.”

The hijackers who piloted the planes could fly and had commercial pilots licenses. They’d all done simulator training. Would they have ever got a job with British Airways? That’s highly doubtful but irrelevant.

Nobody says jet fuel melted hundreds of tons of interconnected steel. Nobody.

You can try to essentialize Muslims if you really want to. If you really think that will help your case, but it really is a silly irrelevancy.

It was typical procedure to comply with hijackers and honestly how do you know you would have fought off four or five determined men with knives?

If the floors of the buildings were incapable of supporting the weight of 10 to 20 stories of steel as Leslie Robertson says then what makes you sure they could support them?

Fireballs down the elevator shafts set people on fire. What use would a basement explosion be if it was to take down a building in the way that the Twin Towers collapsed?

“Or indeed any of the multitude of serious problems in the Official Theory, which is even rejected by John Farmer, Senior Counsel and drafter of the 9/11 Commissions Report.”

Would you like to point out what John Farmer’s criticisms of the 9/11 Commission are and how this helps the case of the Truthers?

You may have a case if Farmer’s book, The Ground Truth, in any way casts doubt on the idea that 19 Muslims hijacked planes and flew them into buildings, what you refer to as the “Magic Arab Theory”. If Farmer does not do this then you have no business adopting him as a mascot.

Heh – to all the whiners – let’s not forget that the worst insult on here was directed at me. Roderick, MI-6′s favorite target in Calgary, called me British.

Hello Soba, let’s keep this civil, eh? I look at the poster name, and if it’s “Larry” or some-such, I don’t even bother reading it. I’d hate to have to make a list of people worth ignoring here.

Soba:

>”

>This is the same Glenn of the “Official Story” that he dubs “The Magic Arab Theory”? If that isn’t a desperate attempt at >strawmanning then I don’t know what is. ”

I called it the Magic Arab Theory, because that’s pretty much what the Official Account calls for. Desperate, not at all – the real reach is that 14 non-practicing Muslims could have done this out of fanatical ideology. Funny nobody has decided to dispute that point – fancy a go?

Soba:

>”

>The hijackers who piloted the planes could fly and had commercial pilots licenses. They’d all done simulator training. >Would they have ever got a job with British Airways? That’s highly doubtful but irrelevant. ”

They “could fly”? You know this? I wish I had your irrefutable sources, because the trainer of at least one said “He couldn’t fly at all”. Is your “they” to mean all of them? They all had a licence? Really?

Soba:

>”Nobody says jet fuel melted hundreds of tons of interconnected steel. Nobody.”

Did I say I was quoting someone? No – but the implication that burning jet fuel was involved is clearly made, let me quote you one example from your good friend Larry. This is the rather slippery nature of counterpoints which I hoped you would not make.

Quote “larry”:

—start quote

That’s exactly what didn’t happen, you fucking moron. How dumb are you? Are you so stupid that you don’t account for the massive fires caused by the burning jet fuel? Do you understand that the building was weakened by falling and burning jet fuel?

—end quote

Now your “Nobody said jet fuel melted _hundred of tons of interconnected steel_. Nobody.” concerning jet fuel is accurate, strictly speaking. But that sounds like a lawyer being very slippery indeed, given the quite obvious implications quoted from larry above.

I should have said thousands of tons, not hundreds. And I should have said appreciably weakened, not melted, and my case would have been even stronger. I appreciate the opportunity to do so.

Soba:

“You can try to essentialize Muslims if you really want to. If you really think that will help your case, but it really is a silly irrelevancy ”

The Magic Muslims is what the land of the Brave and the Free seem to believe in, and their fine Republican representatives, not me.

Soba:

“If the floors of the buildings were incapable of supporting the weight of 10 to 20 stories of steel as Leslie Robertson says then what makes you sure they could support them?”

Please re-write that sentence, I cannot make sense of it.

Soba:

“Fireballs down the elevator shafts set people on fire. What use would a basement explosion be if it was to take down a building in the way that the Twin Towers collapsed?”

Uh huh. And you know this about the lift-shafts because…? Basement explosions might well be required to set about the demolition of a building. I’ve seen/heard reports – first hand, contemporary – of bombs, thunderous explosions taking place in the building. News reports at that time surmised the building had been rigged. I have no reason to dismiss such reports. Why do you?

Glenn. What makes you say they were non-practising? The fact that some of them might have had a beer or two or the fact that they took their opportunity to go to lap-dancing bars in Las Vegas? So what? They probably didn’t have as much chance to do so in Jeddah.

“They “could fly”? You know this? I wish I had your irrefutable sources, because the trainer of at least one said “He couldn’t fly at all”. Is your “they” to mean all of them? They all had a licence? Really?”

This is silly. You are making the case that they couldn’t fly at all because one guy said this about Hani Hanjour. Yet Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license and had done simulator training.

Jet fuel… Of course jet fuel had a role to play in the burning of the Towers. The steel floors sagged under the heat and the steel perimeter buckled. I showed a video of this before to MJ who said, “I’ve seen lots of videos of the Towers collapsing.” But he apparently didn’t need to see this which SHOWED the perimeter walls collapsing from the fire and under the weight of the building above.

“The Magic Muslims is what the land of the Brave and the Free seem to believe in, and their fine Republican representatives, not me.”

What do you mean by Magic Muslims?

“Please re-write that sentence, I cannot make sense of it.”

10-15 stories of steel and concrete very heavy! Put it on the floor and the floor will break. Next floor will also break. Next floor will also break. None of the floors are appreciably stronger than the one above it so why should any one floor arrest the fall of the Towers?

“10-15 stories of steel and concrete very heavy! Put it on the floor and the floor will break. Next floor will also break. Next floor will also break. None of the floors are appreciably stronger than the one above it so why should any one floor arrest the fall of the Towers?”

Oh and that is my paraphrasing of Leslie Robertson.

I also posted a link to a debate between him and Steven Jones in my discussion with MJ. MJ said that I probably misrepresented what he said. He didn’t apparently listen to the debate.

Soba:

—start

Glenn. What makes you say they were non-practising? The fact that some of them might have had a beer or two or the fact that they took their opportunity to go to lap-dancing bars in Las Vegas? So what? They probably didn’t have as much chance to do so in Jeddah.

—end

Precisely. No way were these guys practicing Muslims, so it’s ludicrous to suggest they were about to give their lives for the same. Maybe, as a fanatical Catholic, I’ll just burn a few crosses and masturbate to a picture of the virgin Mary, before killing myself. In the name of the Catholic church. Riiiiiiight.

Soba:

—-start

This is silly. You are making the case that they couldn’t fly at all because one guy said this about Hani Hanjour. Yet Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license and had done simulator training.

—-end

Now this is what I’m talking about with your being slippery, Soba. You claimed they could all fly. I give a fleeting reference to doubt this, and now the burden is on me to prove that they couldn’t fly? How come?

You were making the case that they could all fly, if you recall – actually, they’d have to be able to fly Jumbo jets with some rather impressive ability. Could you provide some proof they were capable of this? Please don’t pretend some passing ability in a 1-engined Censna is somehow comparable to fancy manoeuvres in a 757! Stop being quite so slippery, please!

Magic Muslims: These are the guys that Republicans are extremely afraid of, because apparently they turn into the sort of people who feature in the film The Matrix. That’s why they wet their pants if they such Arabs might set foot on das deutsche Vaterland, sorry, the Homeland of America.

Soba (a re-translation):

—-start

10-15 stories of steel and concrete very heavy! Put it on the floor and the floor will break. Next floor will also break. Next floor will also break. None of the floors are appreciably stronger than the one above it so why should any one floor arrest the fall of the Towers?

—-end

Because they were built to stand the weight of _all_ of the floors above it in the first place. Jeez!

Time for apologies.

To Larry, whose WMB syndrome, white man’s burden of layers of guilt at savaging the world like a pit bull, has now reached the same level as us old colonial bastard British. Sorry. I didn’t know you were a genuine, born-again, US zio-bastard. Maybe Obama’s mission to Haiti will soothe your overheated conscience and you will become a little less defensive of your vicious rulers.

Sorry to the BBC world service which is broadcasting a series about the geniuses of science and medicine in Iraq in the middle ages. Perhaps this represents BBC ‘ balance ‘ against all the lies they tell about the Iraq invasion. Culture, culture, art, art, music, sport – so much more important than truth about brutal demonic bullying by the superpowers. i always think.

Soba: For reasons of time, no doubt, you dropped the points about the incredibly hot properties of burning jet fuel on that particular day, and also the multiple reports about bombs in the basement.

Do I have to explain that nobody actually _claimed_ anything about the particularly hot properties of burning jet fuel… no, of course I don’t, because you understand irony just fine. Correct?

Anno,

if you’re still here, my apologies go to you.

Glenn: What the Hell are you calling me slippery for?

Look at what YOU wrote at 6:06 PM:

“All the Truthers need to do is point out the huge discrepancies in the Magic Arab Theory, and the Official Story is shot through.

For instance, just point out that the Magic Arabs could not, in fact, fly at all.”

So, I imagined that YOU had evidence for this.

I said: “The hijackers who piloted the planes could fly and had commercial pilots licenses. They’d all done simulator training. Would they have ever got a job with British Airways? That’s highly doubtful but irrelevant.”

As far as I know all the hijackers who piloted the planes had commercial licenses.

So you said:

“They “could fly”? You know this? I wish I had your irrefutable sources, because the trainer of at least one said “He couldn’t fly at all”. Is your “they” to mean all of them? They all had a licence? Really?”

Hani Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license. Mohammed Atta had a pilot’s license. Ziad Jarrah had a pilot’s license. Marwan al-Shehhi had a pilot’s license. So, yes. They all had pilot’s licenses and they all trained on simulators for larger jets.

I said: “This is silly. You are making the case that they couldn’t fly at all because one guy said this about Hani Hanjour. Yet Hanjour had a commercial pilot’s license and had done simulator training.”

So you said: “Now this is what I’m talking about with your being slippery, Soba. You claimed they could all fly. I give a fleeting reference to doubt this, and now the burden is on me to prove that they couldn’t fly? How come?”

What? Why is the burden of proof on me? I said they had licenses. This is true. Don’t believe me? Check it out.

“You were making the case that they could all fly, if you recall – actually, they’d have to be able to fly Jumbo jets with some rather impressive ability. Could you provide some proof they were capable of this? ”

Where did you get this about what their ability with Jumbo jets MUST be? Nobody says they must be able to fly jumbo jets so I don’t have to provide any proof that they could.

“Please don’t pretend some passing ability in a 1-engined Censna is somehow comparable to fancy manoeuvres in a 757! Stop being quite so slippery, please!”

I told you they trained on simulators!!!!1!!!eleventy!!! Why is that irrelevant to you? How do you know what they could and couldn’t fly after that?

Glenn, it’s bizarre that your whole case against this aspect of the 9/11 commission rests on one guy who thought Hani Hanjour was a bad pilot. What on Earth counter-scenario do you see happening here?

Four guys all with commercial pilots licenses took over planes along with three or four accomplices as was witnessed by passengers who contacted people on the ground and as was communicated to ATC when the hijackers themselves tried to speak to the passengers and then three of those planes slammed into buildings. Your response, “Ah! But someone said he might not have been a good pilot.”

Anyway, I don’t have time to go into all the others just yet.

angrysoba: “CheebaCow said of 9/11, who cares who did it. If it was an attack then the US got what they deserved anyway.”

Usually I ignore your posts because I don’t find them interesting. However, that’s real fucking dirty to misrepresent what I said like that. Blow-back is a perfectly acceptable term to use when discussing politics and not controversial. I guess I must be real crazy to suggest that providing arms and training to religious nutters to fight proxy wars isn’t the best idea. I never said ‘deserved’, and I have already argued on this blog that it is never acceptable to target civilians.

angrysoba: “What are the grievances by those who orchestrated the attacks?”

Seriously? The grievances of the Arab world towards US policy is elementary stuff. If you don’t know, then I would suggest you are either being dishonest or you are seriously lacking in knowledge and would be better off spending some time researching recent middle east history rather than posting uninformed opinion. This is simple first year university material, with no academic controversy. US policy towards Israel, US propping up dictatorships in oil states etc etc. If you want to know bin Laden’s reasons, just read his letter: {guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver}.

I found the above analysis of writing styles to determine nationality amusing and intriguing. Anyone want to guess my nationality based on what/how I write. I think I have provided enough clues throughout my posts, but then again I already know the answer =P

Technicolour wrote:

Look, does it really matter? I have a feeling that all of this is successfully distracting us from what’s happening now, on our streets, in our parliaments. Richard Shepherd, one of last year’s candidates for Speaker, was telling people until he was blue in the face (well, he was a Tory) that Parliament is being eroded, that its powers are being taken away, but nobody was listening

—

Agreed, I saw the expenses scandals as being part of such an attack on our elected representatives status and confidence, not a real attempt to improve their integrity. Only very small fry where made examples of, for previously accepted, widespreadly taken accounting perks. Meanwhile -amazingly- Billions of times as much public money was donated to failed financial companies whose executives enjoy massive expense accounts and salaries to boot.

CheebaCow, I rate high your posts ive read, but that is some funky fishfood there -the supposed testimoney from the Magic Arab Extraordinaire. I couldnt tap it with my telson. ymmv though

If you look at the web pages of the Herald ‘newspaper’ (www theherald dot co dot uk) you will find that, almost uniquely in the online newspaper world, readers’ comments on stories are not permitted. This was not always the case -there was once a lively forum. However this forum mostly seemed to represent a politically separatist strain of thought, to the extent that it attracted the attention of senior members of the dominant Unionist party in Scotland, who condemned it. Then posts began to appear, claiming to be from unionists. These posts were typically brief, just a sentence or two, and contained direct personal abuse of other posters rather than any substantive argument (sound familiar?). Threads could be rendered unreadable by the sheer volume of these witless contributions, and it is quite clear that many sensible posters gave up and stopped visiting the site. Herald ‘journalists’ cleverly characterised the abusive posts as ‘nationalist’ and to cut a long story short the forum was closed and remains so.

But were the contributions really so witless? The forum which so annoyed the Unioinist establishment is now gone. When examining the posts of angrysoba and Larry, remember the words of Goebbels: it is not the purpose of propaganda to be intelligent, but to bring success. My sister entertained ambitions of becoming a writer, and decided that the easiest market would be Mills & Boon romantic novels. She gave up after a while. “Writing badly isn’t as easy as you might think” she told me. So let’s be careful not to dismiss Larry and angrysoba as dim and deluded – there could be more to it, and we should limit our reaction to them to the reaction they deserve: none at all. Ordinarily I ignore them: I’ve acknowledged their presence here, because this thread is about nothing so they can’t drag us off topic. I also have a hidden agenda – I want to see if they will help us to get 500 posts on a thread about nothing. It will be hard for them – they only have two tools in the box – if abuse doesn’t work try ridicule: if that’s not working either, start over again with abuse. Over to you, guys – 381 and counting.

“Usually I ignore your posts because I don’t find them interesting. However, that’s real fucking dirty to misrepresent what I said like that. Blow-back is a perfectly acceptable term to use when discussing politics and not controversial. ”

I said that because you made this statement:

“From a purely political perspective I’m kinda mystified when people get so worked up about which it was. If it was terrorism, its obviously blow-back from US policy in the middle east. If its false flag, then it was obvious justification for continuing and even increasing the existing policy in the middle east. In other words, if its blow-back the US should alter its imperialist policies, and if its false flag we shouldn’t allow it to be an excuse to continue the existing policies in an even more aggressive manner.”

Now, if you mean that either way it is no excuse for war then I apologise.

But I took it to mean that somehow you saw the attacks as a legitimate response to US foreign policy. I’m not so sure that foreign policy should be conducted according to the demands of a Saudi dissident but this seems to be very strongly what you are implying.

So let’s look at Osama bin Laden’s demands:

a) The US allows the Jews to occupy Palestine. Okay? What should be done about this? Do you think the Jews have no right to live in Palestine? If the US drops its support for Israel what do you think will happen?

b) Support for Russian, China and India against Muslims. Does the US support Russia in Chechnya or China in East Turkestan? I think they’re mostly silent on the issue if not condemnatory of Russia’s and China’s actions. Suport for India in Kashmir? This is nebulous.

c) “Propping up” dictatorships in Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Again, these are pretty nebulous charges. How does the US prop up these dictatorships? I agree with bin Laden that they aren’t good governments but what has that got to do with the US – and as a side thought, if the US started trading with Iran, North Korea, Cuba and Myanmar would this make them proppers-up of those regimes? If they don’t trade with them does this make them hostile? Is blowback inevitable in any foreign policy?

e) US forces are based in eg. Saudi Arabia. Why were they in Saudi Arabia? When asked to leave by those governments what did the US do?

f) Sure, I agree the sanctions were terrible. I think Saddam Hussein bears some of this responsibility, however.

g) This one is not worth addressing.

Oh, and then there’s some justification that people in democracies choose their governments therefore everyone is guilty of the behaviour of their government.

Anyway, I don’t agree with bin Laden on his justification for blowback.

” let’s be careful not to dismiss Larry and angrysoba as dim and deluded – there could be more to it, and we should limit our reaction to them to the reaction they deserve: none at all. Ordinarily I ignore them: I’ve acknowledged their presence here, because this thread is about nothing so they can’t drag us off topic. I also have a hidden agenda – I want to see if they will help us to get 500 posts on a thread about nothing. It will be hard for them – they only have two tools in the box – if abuse doesn’t work try ridicule: if that’s not working either, start over again with abuse. Over to you, guys – 381 and counting.”

Glenn, is what Vronsky just wrote “irony”? You see he says Larry and I only know how to be abusive and ridicule while writing a whole post doing just that.

Angrysoba,

check your inbox.

“Precisely. No way were these guys practicing Muslims, so it’s ludicrous to suggest they were about to give their lives for the same. Maybe, as a fanatical Catholic, I’ll just burn a few crosses and masturbate to a picture of the virgin Mary, before killing myself. In the name of the Catholic church. Riiiiiiight.”

Yes, Glenn and Catholic priests have never been known to knob altar boys. Oh wait!

I don’t know who died and made you ayatollah, Glenn, but in my experience most Muslims of my acquaintance don’t mind drinking beer or even – gasp!- eating pork from time to time. While living here in Japan they seem to have no problem with it except during Ramadan but when they visit home in Egypt, Sudan or Iran they become suddenly more “devout”. Maybe because they don’t have a choice or temptation to drink and pick up chicks is too strong in Japan.

Either way I have no problem believing that these guys could believe they were carrying out a mission in the cause spelt out in bin Laden’s letter as linked to by Cheebacow AND could behave in a way that their religion would frown on.

“Soba: For reasons of time, no doubt, you dropped the points about the incredibly hot properties of burning jet fuel on that particular day”

The heat of the jet fuel wasn’t special. It was hot enough for the steel to lose its structural integrity.

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rbfLLp7rBI&feature=player_embedded

Glenn: “Because they were built to stand the weight of _all_ of the floors above it in the first place. Jeez!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdcNEa6PTQ

9/11….blah blah… blah blah…

….fFFFFFFUUUUUU!!!!!!

;]

Synchronicity! Suhayl Saadi on the difficulties of writing badly.

tinyurl dot com slash ylxy7jt

#389

Thanks again to whoever posted that wonderful video, it’s just made my day.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24365.htm

CheebaCow,

thank you for linking to Osama bin Laden’s letter.

All,

if you have not read Osama bin Laden’s letter, please do so. It is quite obviously a declaration of responsibility, and lays out grievances very clearly. Having read it, I find it impossible to believe that any US elite could be solely responsible for 911.

I hope that Craig’s blog can now cease to be dominated by arguments about the non-motivational aspects of 911.

Obviously I did not see the wholesale slaughter of civilians on 911 as legitimate. I know my posts here have never suggested such a thing (and in fact have explicitly argued the opposite) and I’m not going to bother addressing this with you any more.

angrysoba: “I’m not so sure that foreign policy should be conducted according to the demands of a Saudi dissident but this seems to be very strongly what you are implying.”

No, I’m saying that crazies like bin Laden tap into some legitimate grievances from Arab/Muslim world and use this resentment for their own agenda. If you eliminate the legitimate grievances then people like bin Laden will find it very hard/impossible to operate because he has neither foot soldiers or civilian populations prepared to offer any support to them.

Bin Laden makes many demands, some outright crazy, others exaggerated, but based on legitimate concerns.

a) Israel now exists, obviously it should be allowed to remain. I don’t advocate genocide/ethnic cleansing of an area to fix the previous ethnic cleansing. However, Israel has been occupying Palestinian territory for 40+ years, and predictably this has upset a large number of people. If Israel withdrew to the pre 67 borders as called on by the UN, HRW, Amnesty etc, then I believe this alone would have the most significant effect of reducing Arab/Muslim hostility towards the US govt.

b) This demand is irrelevant, I don’t think anyone is blowing themselves up over these charges.

c) Like I said previously, this stuff is elementary. If you are unaware of recent US history in the middle east, go do some research.

You said: “Is blowback inevitable in any foreign policy?”

I would argue that yes it is when the foreign policy involves giving crazy religious guys training and weapons while at the same time pissing on the beliefs of said crazy religious guys.

e) I think this complaint would go away for the most of the Arab/Muslim world if the US presence in the middle east wasn’t so hostile in general.

f) The sanctions were truly horrific, and Saddam Hussein bares some responsibility over the whole affair. But the US/UK share a large portion of the blame also. The head of the UN sanctions in Iraq resigned over the overly broad and inhumane scope of the sanctions. Sanctions which blocked basic things needed to survive such as water purifiers. Remember that when asked whether the deaths of half a million children were worth it, Secretary of State Madeleine Albrigh replied “we think the price is worth it”. Is it any wonder large numbers of people were upset by this?

g) I will admit that I didn’t bother reading this far, so I wont address it either =P

In summary, if this US policy took into account some of the legitimate grievances of the Arab/Muslim world, crazies like bin Laden wouldn’t be able to recruit and wouldn’t be able to operate with the consent of civilian populations.

Cheebacow,

good post.

And oil IS still cheep enough to burn.

The area of conflict:

http://www.killick1.plus.com/map.jpg

Note that the hydrocarbons are ring-fenced, to the north by Russia and to the south by US bases.

Note that control of Iran would complete a line to the south for the US.

“I find it impossible to believe that any US elite could be solely responsible for 911″

Clark: bin Laden’s career as a CIA asset, since at least 1979, is well-known. As late as July 2001 he was visited by the CIA at the American Hospital in Dubai, where he was undergoing treatment for problems associated with renal failure. This was originally revealed by Le Figaro and a translation is available here: http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=5026

It might be wise to take all alleged statements from bin Laden with a rather generous pinch of salt.

Note also that the US has quietly dropped its allegation that bin Laden was responsible for 911. It’s now pointing the finger at a Guantanamo detainee who, after years of ‘interrogation’, is admitting to being the mastermind.

glenn seems to think that only republicans believe that 19 Arab Muslims led by Atta did 911. No, you silly goose. As explained to you, (i) Obama and his crew don’t want to hear your craziness and (ii) the only truthers left in the States are right-wing extremist nuts.

Good luck with your partners in conspiracy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ccX_PQtlMY&feature=related

clark,

Transcript of Sept 2001 interview with Pakistani Newspaper ‘Ummat’:

“Bin-Ladin Denies Involvement in the 9/11 Attacks”

http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

Craig Murray must be very embarrassed that so many 911 conspiracy kooks are attracted to this blog.

MJ, you lie. bin Laden was never a CIA asset, and he was certainly never treated in an American hospital. This has been thoroughly debunked.

Given what passes as evidence for someone like you, I’m beginning to think you might be as crazy as Roderick Russell.

As I understood it, the (obviously) fake bin Laden video was the one in which he took responsibility for 9/11? — which seems to be the only/main reason for that video? I’m talking purely from memory. Haven’t been engaged in any 9/11 arguments anywhere. The stuff being rehashed here, by Angry and his mate, seem to be extremely old, and thrashed out already elsewhere several thousand times. IMO, the pair of them seem intent on hijacking this place.

——————————–

Haiti, and the US role in what’s happening down there, has not been mentioned by me as an attempt to smear the US. There are many (including Americans) talking about what exactly US intentions are, and why combat troops are there — but with the US in firm control (as it appears that they are – rather than the UN) aid agencies are not getting the aid to the people half quickly enough. The US-controlled airport diverting a Medicins sans Frontieres plane to the Dominican Republic can’t have helped … they’re having a hard enough time getting stuff from the airport to Port au Prince itself. But the emphasis seems to be on “security” rather than getting medical attention for people who are dying in makeshift hospitals.

MJ, also – the U.S. gov’t did not dropped its focus on bin Laden for 911. That’s just stupid. Also, KSM did not admit to it after years of interrogation – he admitted to it before capture and immediately after capture. The interrogations – sometimes perhaps in violation of the law – were meant to elicit information about the organization and future attacks.

Now that I’ve explained that to you, until you drop dead, you’ll be arguing that KSM admitted to 911 only because he was tortured. That makes you dishonest. And probably not that smart.

in their thousands.

“Now that I’ve explained that to you, until you drop dead, you’ll be arguing that KSM admitted to 911 only because he was tortured. That makes you dishonest. And probably not that smart.”

and it makes you a crystal-ball-gazer. Which is not that smart.

BFN

dreoilin,

Fuck you. The U.S. military is down there shouldering the burden of aid distribution. (In full view of the media, mind you). Those guys are getting very little sleep while you whine and whine and whine and pick up on any tiny shred of anti-Americanism that you can pull out of this.

To state the obvious, what the fuck do you mean by “security”? “Security” for whom?

When is the magical United Nations going to step in and handle distribution? Is anyone at the U.N. seriously arguing that the U.S. armed forces are supplanting them?

“and it makes you a crystal-ball-gazer. Which is not that smart.”

There is nothing more predictable than the stupidity of a truther.

“Given what passes as evidence for someone like you”

At least I cite evidence Larry. You appear content to make unsupported assertions.

MJ: “Note also that the US has quietly dropped its allegation that bin Laden was responsible for 911.”

It has done no such thing.

You can still bag yourself 25 million dollars if you catch him.

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/index.cfm?page=Bin_Laden&language=english

“It’s now pointing the finger at a Guantanamo detainee who, after years of ‘interrogation’, is admitting to being the mastermind.”

Khalid Sheikh Muhammed has long been known to have been involved in terrorism. He’s also the uncle of Ramzi Yousef who tried to blow up the WTC the first time round.

The USA were willing enough to use Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, so I see nothing surprising about a CIA agent talking to Bin Laden before 9/11. Rumsfeld was willing to talk to Saddam when the USA helped him fight Iran. Subsquently Saddam did the dirty on America by invading Kuwait, and Bin Laden’s gang organised 9/11. Another example, which cost a British ambassador his career telling others about it: favouring Uzbekistan’s rulers and receiving intelligence of doubtful value derived from torture. Result: as soon as Americans criticised the massacre in Andijan, the Uzbeks kicked them off their air base and gave it to the Russians.

In all cases Americans were bitten by an unworthy hand that they had fed. But that’s what happens to people who favour nurturing snakes for use against enemies and think they’re clever enough to end up unscathed. The lesson is: Change your attitude and abandon this worthless policy!

MJ, the article you cite has no evidence. It’s made up, and has been thoroughly debunked.

But you keep believing unattributed rumors – knock yourself out.

“Haiti, and the US role in what’s happening down there, has not been mentioned by me as an attempt to smear the US. There are many (including Americans) talking about what exactly US intentions are, and why combat troops are there — but with the US in firm control (as it appears that they are – rather than the UN) aid agencies are not getting the aid to the people half quickly enough.”

This is exactly what I was talking about. Any opportunity to sneer at the US.

So what are the US military’s intentions, do you think dreiolin? To loot the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere?

You previously linked to some guy going on about how the US had funnelled their aid to NGOs and aid agencies instead of the Haiti’s corrupt central government in the years leading up to the earthquake. Can you not think of any non-cynical reason why the US wouldn’t have given its aid directly to Haiti’s corrupt central government?

“It’s made up, and has been thoroughly debunked”.

Perhaps you would care to cite your source for that.

As anyone noticed that American sci-fi movies or TV series, the characters are always military? Think of Star Trek or Stargate – all in uniform. In Britain the sci-fi chartacters are civilians – Dr Who, Blake’s 7, Hitchiker’s Guide. If we take US media to be representative of their nation, they must all be in the bloody army. In Avatar, the bad guy is a soldier. But so is the good guy – he’s a jarhead too!

Can you imagine the Second Coming if it takes place in the US of A? A cigar-chewing General Jesus H. Christ and his platoon of disciples – Lootenant Peter, Sergeant Andrew, Private Judas. And no more Mr Nice Guy – this messiah is gonna kick some ass. Shit, yeah.

dreoilin

Sorry – just spinning out the thread…

“I see nothing surprising about a CIA agent talking to Bin Laden before 9/11″

I think the point is that by July 2001 bin Laden and al-Qaeda were already being publicly blamed for the bombing of the USS Cole.

“The USA were willing enough to use Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, so I see nothing surprising about a CIA agent talking to Bin Laden before 9/11.”

They did not fund Al-Qaeda. They gave their funds to Pakistan’s ISI who distributed the money to those resistance movements they liked best. Arguably, they were as bad if not worse than bin Laden. Gulbuddin Hakmatyar, for example.

“At least I cite evidence Larry. You appear content to make unsupported assertions.”

Posted by: MJ

He does it constantly — unsupported assertions, lots of opinions + aggressive insults. Not worth debating … waste of time.

“Khalid Sheikh Muhammed has long been known to have been involved in terrorism. He’s also the uncle of Ramzi Yousef who tried to blow up the WTC the first time round”

and clearly (now) pushed to the mental brink. He confessed to everything except the sinking of the Titanic. I can’t remember if shooting JFK was included. Probably was.

Dialysis:

http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_on_dialysis.html

MJ, your article, which has no sources yet you take as gospel states the following:

“A few days later, the CIA man boasted in front of friends that he had visited the Saudi millionaire.”

Do you understand why you’re laughed at?

The rest of it:

http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_met_the_cia.html

Abe Rene writes: “The USA were willing enough to use Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, so I see nothing surprising about a CIA agent talking to Bin Laden before 9/11.”

You anti-Americans really need to start thinking about why you believe the things that you choose to believe. There’s absolutely no evidence that the CIA backed al-Qaeda and/or bin Laden. There’s evidence of U.S. support for not-so-nice people in Afghanistan, but it wasn’t al-Qaeda.

But it doesn’t matter. You don’t need evidence, because you have no respect for the truth.

@angrysoba: ‘MJ: “Note also that the US has quietly dropped its allegation that bin Laden was responsible for 911.”

It has done no such thing.’

Dick Cheney: “So we’ve never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming.”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4646091253905495376#

“your article, which has no sources”

If you read it again you’ll see it has several sources, but they are not all named. Le Figaro is a serious newspaper.

asoba: point of order: I was in the NWFP/Afghanistan. The USA directly funded Hekmatyar.

david, I posted that video you’re very welcome.

MJ, so basically what you’re saying is that you believe everything told to you by Le Figaro freelance writer Alexandra Richard.

http://nyctohylophobia.blogspot.com/2007/06/obl-in-dubai-myth.html

Do you not see how rampant anti-Americanism is? Why wouldn’t it infect even the best newspapers of Europe?

hawley_jr

That was a joke, right?

It is clear they are talking about Saddam Hussein and Tony Snow is asking Cheney whether there is evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. It’s very clear that Cheney said Osama bin Laden by mistake. You surely know that. I would guess if you could play the rest of the clip it would be clear.

Oh, and look at this…the very next part of the interview that had been so closely cropped:

“Q Okay. A couple of things, I think a couple of minutes ago — I want to make sure — you said Osama bin Laden wasn’t involved in 9/11 planning. You meant Saddam Hussein, correct? That Saddam Hussein was not involved in September 11th?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Correct. Yes, sir.

Q Okay.

THE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Thanks for straightening that out. I didn’t realize I’d done that. (Laughter.)

Q Yes. Well, otherwise we’d have a whole lot more stories to deal with.”

“A cigar-chewing General Jesus H. Christ and his platoon of disciples – Lootenant Peter, Sergeant Andrew, Private Judas”

Golden Globes 2011 – Mel Gibson playing the General?

“They did not fund Al-Qaeda. They gave their funds to Pakistan’s ISI who distributed the money to those resistance movements they liked best. Arguably, they were as bad if not worse than bin Laden. Gulbuddin Hakmatyar, for example”

Anyone finding it hard to believe that this guy is a 32-year-old civilian-American teacher in Japan? Just wondering …

“You don’t need evidence, because you have no respect for the truth”

Jeeze, that was Larry! He’s hilarious. And he’s not from St Louis. Good ol’ Lar is from elsewhere.

“That was a joke, right?”

Yup, I can’t take you two seriously.

Oops, sorry, you were talking to hawley_jr.

Think I’ll have lunch.

technicolor: “asoba: point of order: I was in the NWFP/Afghanistan. The USA directly funded Hekmatyar.”

Thanks. Okay, I can certainly go a long with that.

That sounds very intrepid of you. When were you there?

angrysoba,

Thanks for that. I stand corrected.

“Good ol’ Lar is from elsewhere.”

Where? Are you also convinced that I’m a British Man in Black?

“Anyone finding it hard to believe that this guy is a 32-year-old civilian-American teacher in Japan? ”

Yep. That’s not an accurate description of me.

“Good ol’ Lar is from elsewhere.”

Where? Are you also convinced that I’m a British Man in Black?

“angrysoba,

Thanks for that. I stand corrected.”

No problem, hawley_jr. It should be noted as a very typical example of quote-mining, however. You often find things like this being used to further a CT. Another famous one is Larry Silverstein’s “pull it!”.

Here’s another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vxc50xAbk

“Anyone finding it hard to believe that this guy is a 32-year-old civilian-American teacher in Japan? Just wondering … ”

Smells military to me. Certainly government. Don’t let them scare you off, dreoilin. Although it’s couched in abuse and ridicule, they’re paying us a compliment – they think this blog is worth silencing.

“Smells military to me.”

Once again, I’m wondering if Craig Murray is proud for having attracted a gaggle of nutjobs to his blog.

But Vronsky, who’s paying you?

Angrysoba,

So you’re American and I’m British. But we’re both military.

Is it about time to break it to them that we’re teenagers in Finland?

110 posts from just two users. That’s 1/4 of the total posts on this thread. Anyone like to guess which two these might be? (Clue: Neither are from the UK)

Dick Cheney: “So we’ve never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming.”

Interesting to recall that, prior to the invasion of Afghanistan, the Taliban said they would be happy to extradite bin Laden to the US if it could provide evidence of his involvement in 911. Clearly it couldn’t.

Remind me again: why did we invade Afghanistan?

“So you’re American and I’m British. But we’re both military.”

I know. It’s classic! And this is the force of independent critical thinking minds that are going to destroy the New World Order?

“Is it about time to break it to them that we’re teenagers in Finland?”

Oh no! You gave us away!

@angrysoba: “It is clear they are talking about Saddam Hussein and Tony Snow is asking Cheney whether there is evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. It’s very clear that Cheney said Osama bin Laden by mistake. You surely know that. I would guess if you could play the rest of the clip it would be clear.”

Yes, I followed the link to the whitehouse.gov site provided under the video for more info, but got a ’404 Page Not Found’.

Have a look at what I have just posted on the joking thread.

Re: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

What would you confess to if your torturers held your children?

“Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and four other groups, are demanding that the US government accounts for the whereabouts of 39 people whom they believe have been held at secret CIA prisons since the attacks of September 11 2001.”

“The list also includes a number of children, including the two young sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. The two boys have not been seen by family members since they were detained in Pakistan almost five years ago during a raid in search of their father.”

“The report… expresses concern over the fate of Yusuf al-Khalid and Abed al-Khalid, the sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. They were taken into custody, aged nine and seven, in September 2002, during an attempt to capture their father. A former detainee says that he saw them in March the following year, around the time their father was captured, in a secret prison where the guards tormented them with insects.

CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano dismissed the report, telling Reuters news agency that the agency acts in ‘strict accord with American law’, and that its counter-terrorist initiatives are ‘subject to careful review and oversight’. He added: ‘The United States does not conduct or condone torture.’”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/07/terrorism.usa

“Yes, I followed the link to the whitehouse.gov site provided under the video for more info, but got a ’404 Page Not Found’.”

It’s in the archives. It appears that the correction appears a few paragraphs down. Not “immediately after” as I accidentally stated.

Click my name and you should be able to get to it.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confesses:

“1. I was responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center Operation.

2. I was responsible for the 9/11 Operation, from A to Z.

3. [REDACTED]

4. I was responsible for the Shoe Bomber Operation to down two American airplanes.

5. I was responsible for the Filka Island Operation in Kuwait that killed two American soldiers.

6. 1 was responsible for the bombing of a nightclub in Bali, Indonesia, which was frequented by British and Australian nationals.

7. I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing the New (or Second) Wave attacks against the following skyscrapers after 9/11:

a. Library Tower, California.

b. Sears Tower, Chicago,

c. Plaza Bank, Washington state.

d. The Empire State Building, New York City.

8. I was responsible for planning, financing, & follow-up of Operations to destroy American military vessels and oil tankers in the Straights of Hormuz, the Straights of Gibraltar, and the Port of Singapore.

9. I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing for the Operation to bomb and destroy the Panama Canal.

10. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the assassination of several former American Presidents, including President Carter.

11. I was responsible for surveying, planning, and financing for the bombing of suspension bridges in New York.

12. I was responsible for planning to destroy the Sears Tower by burning a few fuel or oil tanker trucks beneath it or around it.

13. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing for the operation to destroy Heathrow Airport, the Canary Wharf Building, and Big Ben on British soil.

14. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing for the destruction of many night clubs frequented by American and British. citizens on Thailand soil.

15. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the destruction of the New York Stock Exchange and other financial targets after 9/11.

16. I was responsible for planning, financing, and surveying for the destruction of buildings in the Israeli city of Elat by using airplanes leaving from Saudi Arabia.

17. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing for the destruction of American embassies in Indonesia, Australia, and Japan.

18. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the destruction of the Israeli embassy in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines, and Australia.

19. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the destruction of an Israeli ‘El-Al’ Airlines flight on Thailand soil departing from Bangkok Airport.

20. I was responsible for sending several Mujahadeen into Israel to conduct surveillance to hit several strategic targets deep in Israel.

21. I was responsible for the bombing of the hotel in Mombasa that is frequented by Jewish travelers via El-Al airlines.

22. I was responsible for launching a Russian-made SA-7 surface-to-air missile on El-Al or other Jewish airliner departing from Mombasa.

23. I was responsible for planning and surveying to hit American targets in South Korea, such as American military bases and a few night clubs frequented by American soldiers.

24. I was responsible for financial, excuse me, I was responsible for providing financial support to hit American, Jewish, and British targets in Turkey.

25. I was responsible for surveillance needed to hit nuclear power plants that generate electricity in several U. S. states.

26. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing to hit NATO Headquarters in Europe.

27. I was responsible for the planning and surveying needed to execute the Bojinka Operation, which was designed to down twelve American airplanes full of passengers. I personally monitored a round-trip, Manila-to-Seoul, Pan Am flight.

28. I was responsible for the assassination attempt against President Clinton during his visit to the Philippines in 1994 or 1995.

29. I was responsible for the assassination attempt against Pope John Paul the second while he was visiting the Philippines.”

DETAINEE: I was not responsible, but share.

PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE: I shared responsibility. I will restate number twenty nine.

29. “I shared responsibility for the assassination attempt against Pope John Paul the second while he was visiting the Philippines.

30. I was responsible for the training and financing for the assassination of Pakistan’s President Musharaf.

31. I was responsible for the attempt to destroy an American oil company owned by the Jewish former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, on the Island of Sumatra, Indonesia.”

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2007/khalid-sheikh-muhammad_transcript.htm

MJ – finally we found a government that you trust. If Bill Clinton tells you there is no government 911 conspiracy, you don’t believe him. If Obama told you the same thing, you wouldn’t believe him. But you’re willing to take religious zealots at their word! Hah!

Heh – the Taliban is still around! For what else do you take them at their word?

The Daily Telegraph has an article today

“Ban butter to save our hearts, says doctor. Butter should be banned in a bid to save thousands from heart disease, a leading heart surgeon claims.

Adjusting your diet by replacing butter with a healthy spread or margarine is a very simple thing to do”

But this is a lie.

“One of the main causes of heart disease is the margarine which your doctor is telling you is so much better for you than butter. The process of manufacture of margarine involves heating oils to very high temperatures. That high temperature unfortunately guarantees that the oils will be converted into free radical forms. Margarine is made from hydrogenated fats. It is one of the worst foods you can eat.”

“Margarine manufacturers were largely successful at driving a natural and healthy food product, butter, off the market. It is because of their powerful marketing and propaganda that a lot of people today believe margarine is healthier than butter.”

But not only is this a lie, most of what you believe is a lie.

Most but not all of what this girl says is true. I think she’s got a few things wrong like Chemtrails – or maybe she is right and I am wrong.

Everything Is a Lie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH_DBApVObM

Tony

Yes – the Truther Girls make an appearance!

We’ve known about hydrogenated fats being bad for years, Tony. Some cities in the States are banning them from restaurants. You’re way behind, pal.

“For what else do you take them at their word?”

Surely it would have been worth calling their bluff and providing the evidence. Who knows, it might have saved an awful lot of grief, bloodshed and money.

“There is nothing more predictable than the stupidity of a truther.”

Running close, it would be something of a suprise to see Larry come up with a characterisation that didn’t express contempt for someone. It’s a shame he hasn’t got anything better to do than read so much stuff he doesn’t seem to take any enjoyment in.

If good ol’ Lar had read the posts properly, he should have seen that I pointed out his American spelling of “pedophile” and “harbored”. I hope he’s not military. He’s very, very sloppy.

“they think this blog is worth silencing”

Interesting isn’t it. They’ve hijacked this thread pretty thoroughly. Just as well it wasn’t about anything, anyway.

Great list of the confessions of KSM posted by hawley_jr — plus the “United States does not conduct or condone torture” fiction again.

Makes me sick.

gosh, leave you all alone for a few hours and bang you have to read up 300 odd links and stuff.

Still far too much of it unrelated.

Now I used the war on terror to write my dissertation. there can be no doubt of the connections of the Bush caln to the Bin Ladens. there are people who used to work for the CIA who claim that Osama had been trained to use black op equipment, tought to access sat phone comms, etc., that he was the bag man on the ground for ISI/CIA, who not only helped to organise the building out of some caves in Tora Bora but also saw it stacked full with armunitions to use and oust the Russians, long before 911.

That he was connected with the US foreign policy projects and then turned against them is so obvious.

Sec.of state for south Asia Robin Raphel was engaged in an intense shuttle diplomacy with the Taliban during the mid 1990, he was virtually representing the UNOCAL bid for a pipeline.

And it was benazir Bhutto who affirmed, in a BBC interview with their world service on 4.Oct. 1996 that the madrassa were set up by Britain, the USA, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, during the resistance to the Soviet Union, a particualr brand of politcal islam that was directed at jihad to oust the Russians.

All of these problems that now exist in the middle east or Afghanistan/Pakistan are either remnents of old empirical attempts at line drawing in the sand, or failed understanding of what one would like to achieve and how best to go about it.

I say it again, the more soldiers that are sent to Afghanisatn, the more young and fanatically trained maddrassa fodder will volunteer. The US would achieve more by entering the madrassas, once again, but this time by promoting and teaching a more real, calm Islam, than to bomb mud huts with drones.

Notyhing will ever come of anything unless the hearts and minds are reconciled and are working together.

So lets prepare for more bodybags, because our elected Governments, the current shower just vying for our interested five seconds of power, will want us to put them into power again, hence the angst and fear campaigns, the odd pants job, something that was know for weeks just not the right people.

The CIA must be drowning in info it can’t assertain as to whats what,a overblown federal pustula that needs lancing, especially thos Xe guys and dolls, they are so bad for Governments, they give torture a bad name.

george madison warned about the connections of war and ‘degenracy of manners and morals’.

I argue that by adopting george kennan politics that jettisoned ideals of politics, in favour of maintaining 50% of the worlds resources with only 6.3% of the population, plus the misconception by many so called think tanks and economic thinkers, ‘that the world economy is a zero sum game.’ has failed the world, the USA and international stability and trust. It has pitched two misguided people with different religous outlooks against each other.

good book to recommend for understanding how it was possible for 911 to happen is Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed’s ‘The war on freedom’, but there are others. Enjoy

dreoilin,

You’re someone who’s exploiting the suffering of thousands of Haitians to spread your anti-American hatred. Now THAT’S sick!

Larry from St Louis

Keep your ad hominem generalisations like “you anti-Americans” and “no respect for the truth” to yourself. How many times have you been across the Atlantic on holiday? I’ve been in your country (and therefore helped your economy) several times. I have blood relations and friends who are your fellow citizens, which is why I wouldn’t want anyone dropping a Big One on your country. That’s not the same as approving its foreign policy, particularly Iraq, the latter which has been, if you don’t mind my saying so, one big screwup. (I wonder whether, by some chance, your own President would agree).

The CIA’s Operation Cyclone funded the Afghan mujahideen, and Al Qaeda was one of the groups which benefitted via its many friends within them. It matters not a lot whether the connection were indirect – but I would expect CIA agents in the field to wish to keep an eye on their money was going, and therefore there’s nothing surprising about contacts with Bin Laden before 9/11, even if they were denied.

hawley-jr

You missed a confession:

32. I killed Cock Robin

Ingo: Very interesting. I’ve got (and read!) Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed’s “The London Bombings – an independent inquiry” which is extremely disturbing. It posits that a tacit agreement had been made between UK security forces and radical groups that they could carry out their deeds unmolested, as long as they didn’t carry out anything in the UK itself. There are many other disturbing aspects to the London bombings which really do deserve a proper explanation. I thought his book was going to be something of an apologia for radical Islam movements, but it was far from it.

MJ,

The U.S. tried to get the Taliban to extradite Bin Laden prior to Sept. 11, but was met with extreme resistance.

http://www.unwire.org/unwire/20010403/13845_story.asp

Now after Sept. 11 – any such demand by the Taliban to present evidence would have required legal process (under Taliban justice?). So years and years later, after going through whatever hoops required by the Taliban, the U.S. State Dept. (maybe? – this is your fantasy scenario) would rest its case. And the outcome? Years later, would they hand him over? Again, you’re taking the Taliban at its word. That’s fairly obtuse.

Some interesting research. I think this is quite useful. It’s easy to let things slip through the objectivity net.

Otherwise, note to Larry: when has dreoilin ever said she hated Americans? Do you identify so completely with your government & your military that you can’t see a difference?

Also, Larry, you tend, unlike angrysoba, to ignore, boringly, any answers to your many questions. I think I can understand your fury, but don’t you think you’d be better off going and kicking a puppy or something? Or, possibly using facts to argue with?

By the way, remember the last time when Bush got in, just? I found this website, at the time. Love those Americans!

http://www.sorryeverybody.com/index_old.shtml

Seems there is a lot of this Sunsteining going on. Take a look at the work of ‘Andy Walker’ on the blog linked below. He’s better than you, angrysoba!

tinyurl dot com slash yjwfkxn

Arsalan wrote:

Have a look at what I have just posted on the joking thread.

( http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/joking_now_ille.html#comments )

8-Year-Old Boy Can’t Get Name Off Airport Security Watch List Mikey Hicks… …Mikey’s mother, who actually got clearance to fly on Air Force One as a photojournalist, is well-armed with zingers for the Times: Up your arms, down your arms, up your crotch ?” someone is patting your 8-year-old down like he’s a criminal. A terrorist can blow his underwear up and they don’t catch him. But my 8-year-old can’t walk through security without being frisked… ….William J. Pascrell Jr., a New Jersey Democrat, tells the Times. “If we can’t get an 8-year-old off the list, the whole list becomes suspect.”

..and the English guy whos been charged with “conspiring to create a bomb hoax” for tweeting “Robin Hood airport is closed, You’ve got a week and a bit to get your s**t together, otherwise I’m blowing the airport sky high!!”

No more kidding then :p

crazy stuff

Glenn, does it bother you that you belong to a failed fringe movement, just one hair short of David Icke on the crazy meter?

NO ONE gives credit to your bizarre assertions – not even George Galloway or Noam Chomsky.

tinyurl.com/yjwfkxn

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14899.html

why do you do that Vronsky?

“hawley-jr

You missed a confession:

32. I killed Cock Robin”

No, that was “3. [REDACTED]“

technicolour – what did I ignore?

Ingo,

Whilst it is interesting that both the intellectual right and left and the majority of Christians & Muslims believe most of the official US Government 9/11 conspiracy theory, objective analysis of all the facts – especially from the point of view of the physics – proves conclusively, that all 3 buildings were brought down by controlled demolition.

If you are doing a dissertation on the War on Terror, then you need to start with the basic indisputable facts. You can’t fake the fundamental laws of physics.

As to who did it, well that is another matter, but it was an extremely high tech, extremely well co-ordinated operation. Whilst people in the Middle East have undoubtedly sufferred from it, arguably the biggest victims have actuall been the American people themselves. They are not only suffering from mass trauma – they really are scared of “Terrorists”, their economy has also been devastated, and they have stopped doing anything sensible. They are in effect fighting wars at enormous cost that are of absolutely no benefit to Americans.

Tony

Read your piece Larry. It contradicts itself:

“Afghan envoy Sayed Rahmatullah Hashemi, who was in the United States trying to negotiate relief of UN sanctions on Afghanistan, said the Taliban had offered to extradite bin Laden for trial in any Islamic country (UN Wire, 22 Mar)”.

Try Alexander Cockburn, a good journalist:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11012004.html

If your reponse is “well, you wouldn’t take them at their word” I suggest you know nothing about the tribal rules of hospitality (which the Taliban were trying to find ways round) and would not, in any case, make a terribly good diplomat.

Vronsky,

I think Andy Walker smells of military. Certainly government. I have a hard time picturing him in a classroom.

I pretty much agree with him. Especially this, “Believing in things that are not true is not good for your mental health and well being – My advice to anyone who has a friend who might start talking about the ‘communists’ who are after him or the lizard people who are ruling the planet or the Illuminati, or the Zionists, or the CIA or whatever the particular expression might be is to tell him or her gently but firmly not to be so bloody daft for once full blown psychosis takes hold it is a very long and difficult road back.”

technicolour, did you catch the next sentence that begins “However, …”

BWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

technicolour, are you really that stupid? Do you just want to read the sentences that support your position? Are you able to hold two contradictory thoughts in your brain?

.”On the morning of September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 77 departed Dulles International Airport bound for Los Angeles at 8:20 am Eastern Time. According to reports and data, a hijacking took place between 08:50:54 and 08:54:11[1] in which the hijackers allegedly crashed the aircraft into the Pentagon at 09:37:45. Reported by CNN, according to Ted Olson, wife Barbara Olson had called him from the reported flight stating, “…all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were herded to the back of the plane by armed hijackers…”[2]. However, according to Flight Data provided by the NTSB, the Flight Deck Door was never opened in flight. How were the hijackers able to gain access to the cockpit, remove the pilots, and navigate the aircraft to the Pentagon if the Flight Deck Door remained closed?”….

Boeing management has decided not to support your request for help in

processing the flight data you received from the NTSB under the Freedom

of Information Act.

Thanks for an interesting exchange of conversation, good luck in your

endeavour, and best wishes from Seattle.

Al Withers

Boeing Service Engineering

Ah well – another dead end.

Right Mark, because everyone needs to pay attention to creepy fucks like you.

No, Larry, I was pointing out that your piece contradicts itself. Posting it as proof that the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden was therefore missing at least half the story and, if you read other reports, more than that.

csv data (FDR) AA Flight 77 is available for analysis of the Flight deck door here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XX44XLUH

I would appreciate further analysis by British FDR analysts – Thank-you.

I’m beginning to think that people here are severely retarded. You bring up items that were asserted many years ago by American theologians and young Americans that couldn’t get into a real university. These items have been thoroughly debunked. Without some sort of physiological impairment, I’m not sure that anyone could be that stupid. You people make Roderick Russell seem sane.

And Larry, if you carry on with your bizarre playground rudeness, I’d be surprised if anyone wanted to keep responding to you.

“Ah well – another dead end.”

That’s the life of a Truther.

technicolour, you’re the asshole siding with the Taliban when any sane person would realize they were shielding Bin Laden.

I do wish you’d visit your radical Muslim friends and tell them how much you’re sorry and how much you’d like to be friends with them.

Heh there is some hope – no one here has yet made the “Argument from Charlie Sheen.”

The United States is to deploy 21,000 US troops in and around the Kurdistan region of northern Iraq despite the security agreement between Baghdad and Washington.

According to the commander of US forces in northern Iraq, Anthony Cucolo, 21,000 US forces will be deployed in Kirkuk and Mosul early next month, the Fars News Agency reported on Saturday.

Based on the SOFA agreement, both sides agreed that US troops should pull out from Iraq’s urban areas by the end of June 2009 and be withdrawn altogether from the country by the end of 2011.

Also, people -

TO STATE THE OBVIOUS -

Craig Murray doesn’t believe in your bizarre 911 conspiracies. He just tolerates you. To him, you’re just a bunch of crazies. Any sane person sees you as such.

Just posting a link

http://canadahaitiaction.ca/?p=1055

“The Crisis in Haiti

Global Research Dossier of 50+ articles and reports

- 2010-01-23″…

http://tinyurl.com/yfnd53z

Anrysoba,

If you are referring to me and that is not clear, I am not a truther, I am an investigator of facts who has military experience.

Larry,

Again I note your role here – the number of inane comments and the timing of your arrival. You have yet to engage with me and I await the challenge with enthusiasm.

@Larry: “…you’re just a bunch of crazies. Any sane person sees you as such.”

“An independent U.S.-based group called World Public Opinion.org asked 16,000 people in 17 countries who they thought was responsible for the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington.

Majorities in only nine of the 17 countries believed that al-Qaida was behind the attacks, a finding that surprised World Public Opinion.org’s director, Steven Kull.”

http://khilafah.com/index.php/news-watch/america/3671-global-poll-shows-doubt-about-al-qaida-role-in-911-attacks

Mark, what do you think I dodged?

(btw Craig Murray thinks you’re batshit crazy)

You know, I didn’t believe that the US gov blew up the twin towers, but reading Larry, I now kind of want to. And this is despite having seen Loose Change, which you would think was innoculation enough.

hawley_jr,

You’re making a stupid point. People also believe in aliens and ghosts, but whether or not more people believe in such things in a particular area is not evidence that bears on whether or not they exist.

I’ve read in many places that only 6% of Pakistanis believe that Muslims did 911. And a majority believe that the JOOOOOSS did it. Not a surprise – Pakistan is an illiterate heavily Islamic country.

(btw Craig Murray thinks you’re batshit crazy)

“You know, I didn’t believe that the US gov blew up the twin towers, but reading Larry, I now kind of want to. And this is despite having seen Loose Change, which you would think was innoculation enough.”

That sounds like an admission.

“No, Larry, I was pointing out that your piece contradicts itself.”

It wasn’t contradicting itself. It was reconciling two different and opposing assertions. The word “however” has been used for this for many centuries.

(btw Craig Murray thinks you’re batshit crazy)

Larry,

Most people are morons and believe in all sorts of nonsense, that is quite obviously untrue.

For example, whilst Ordono Mundi’s spelling is crap he probably isn’t a moron, whilst you probably are.

Tony

http://main.fknnewz.com/blog/?p=1086

Extract

“it is Thanks to the discoveries of science and the prevalnce of reason in the modern world ,that many of us enjoy the freedom to stand back and do nothting while morons kill each other and their leaders sanction the destruction of our planet , our cradle of life. Yes thanks to science we have freedom to not be dumb, freedom to disagree or not take part..or the freedom to be astronomers

2 billion judeao christians , 1.5 billion muslims, 1 billion hindus and siks, and another billion assorted traditions of mumbly jumbly..have succumbed to the dark forces of Moron, They run our governmnets,control their flocks, infect our schools and to this day slaughter in their name is common. Fellow earth people I submit to you that doing nothing and being nothing is no onger enough… I say freedom is not free. and If the 1 billion non morons on earth do not come together to oppose and convert those lost minds from the shadow of Moron to the light of study, our temporary freedoms wil be just that ..temporaray.

This is the plalace of peace and reconciliation , its in the captial of kazakstan, interesting layout … Every 3 years leaders of the worlds biggest voodoo franchises come her to plan our continued adherence to mumbo jumbo, , we can only guess what kind of homogenised all one god faith with shoppping theyre dreaming up for us , steamlining their hocus pocus to a one size fits all . all the major mumbo is represented , no doubt a strategy for reconcilliation involvs you remianing inactive while they plan uber voodoo or mega mumbo or global hocus pocus, becuase no one who represents athiest si welcome, theres no room it seems in the future of all one god faith for non believers or a neutral secular life..peoplel of earth I say to you Freedom is not free , and i call upon all atheiests , agnostics, humanists and people of intelligence to join the astronomers, to travel the eternal road of infinite study and to fight the war on Moron , spreading the sacred facts across the face of the earth , ridding the world of ignorance and defeating the dark lord Moron . together as a billion strong voice of sanity , armed with reason and knowledge, supported by the facts and organised into a united body of will, we can change the world , shaping it not into a mass of ignorant unquestioning believers but a world of peacfull people free to explor and study the one thing greater than we are ..Universe . Say no to atheism , Join the astronomers, travel with me Ordono Mundi on the eternal road of infinite study, spread the sacred facts , rid the world of ignorance and defeat the dark forces of Moron. before th e palace of peace and reconcillaition becomes the church of all one god faith incorporated..with shopping

Praise the laws.

Spacetime

January 18, 2010

“Haiti food aid: crackers with “bugs and worms”…

http://tinyurl.com/ycto4qe

“Bush Was Responsible for Destroying Haitian Democracy -Randall Robinson on Obama Tapping Bush to Co-Chair US Relief Efforts”…

tinyurl.com/yb565ku

Thanks, George. I was just going to post this page:

http://tinyurl.com/yamao3g

Extract:

The objective is not to work towards the rehabilitation of the national government, the presidency, the parliament, all of which has been decimated by the earthquake. Since the fall of the Duvalier dictatorship, America’s design has been to gradually dismantle the Haitian State, restore colonial patterns and obstruct the functioning of a democratic government. In the present context, the objective is not only to do away with the government but also to revamp the mandate of the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH), of which the headquarters have been destroyed.

“The role of heading the relief effort and managing the crisis quickly fell to the United States, for lack — in the short term, at least — of any other capable entity.” ( US Takes Charge in Haiti _ With Troops, Rescue Aid – NYTimes.com, January 14, 2009)

Prior to the earthquake, there were, according to US military sources, some 60 US military personnel in Haiti. From one day to the next, an outright military surge has occurred: 10,000 troops, marines, special forces, intelligence operatives, etc., not to mention private mercenary forces on contract to the Pentagon.

In all likelihood the humanitarian operation will be used as a pretext and justification to establish a more permanent US military presence in Haiti.

We are dealing with a massive deployment, a “surge” of military personnel assigned to emergency relief.

The first mission of SOUTHCOM will be to take control of what remains of the country’s communications, transport and energy infrastructure. Already, the airport is under de facto US control. In all likelihood, the activities of MINUSTAH which from the outset in 2004 have served US foreign policy interests, will be coordinated with those of SOUTHCOM, namely the UN mission will be put under de facto control of the US military.

————————-

The UN head of mission was killed along with several other UN staff, in the earthquake. They are still (or were) searching for others of their collegues.

colleagues

dreoilin would rather have people starve.

dreoilin, have you ever had a child die in your arms?

dreoilin, you’re sick for taking advantage of this crisis.

Larry,

Here is a great conspiracy theory for you – check it out.

An unnamed source has leaked that activity in ‘the box’ (R-4808N) suggest that a large number of drones (> 500) are/will be tested in a group or network. Each one with its own (MAC) address so that each position relative to all the others is computed and a formation attack results.

I want to know Larry where this formation will strike?

@Larry: “You’re making a stupid point. People also believe in aliens and ghosts, but whether or not more people believe in such things in a particular area is not evidence that bears on whether or not they exist.”

Maybe, but it does show that, according to your definition, there are a heck of a lot of crazies about, and not so many sane like you.

Pensacola, Florida

(btw Craig Murray thinks you’re batshit crazy)

Thanks Larry,

What that beautiful beach? I suggest you ask your boss!

http://911stories.googlepages.com/accountsoftowerstructuralinstabilityande

dreoilin

Thanks.

Winning hearts and minds…

http://tinyurl.com/ylefugd

“Craig Murray doesn’t believe in your bizarre 911 conspiracies”

I’m not aware that Craig has revealed his hand on the subject, at least not on this blog.

I do remember seeing a video of him in a Q & A session with the other candidates for Norwich North. He was asked a question about terrorism. He said something like: “according to the official account of 911 – if you believe the official account”. After the briefest of pauses he added “which I do”. I sensed a certain ambivalence there, from which he felt it wise quickly to extricate himself.

I like to think it was reading all the morons and nutjobs on these threads that seeded that ambivalence.

Yay! 500! And all about nothing!

“You know, I didn’t believe that the US gov blew up the twin towers, but reading Larry, I now kind of want to. And this is despite having seen Loose Change, which you would think was innoculation enough.”

That sounds like an admission.

Sure. An admission that your point of view is so unpleasant it makes

almost anyone on the ‘other side’ look attractive. Hold on. Maybe *that’s* what you’re trying to do! Are you an extremist undercover truther, perhaps?

“No, Larry, I was pointing out that your piece contradicts itself.”

It wasn’t contradicting itself. It was reconciling two different and opposing assertions. The word “however” has been used for this for many centuries.”

Two different and opposing assertions only one of which you mention, as ‘proof’ that the Taliban refused to hand Bin Laden over. You then ignore other substantiated reporting on the issue. You then break into a wild rant about extremist Muslims. FYI I was never friends with Hekmatyar; he was insane and brutal, and his men tried to kill one of my colleagues.

(btw Craig Murray thinks you’re batshit crazy)

I must get that on a t-shirt.

“I must get that on a t-shirt”

Harr! I’d love one too.

“why do you do that Vronsky?”

Good question. It’s a habit from other (and older) blogs. Long URLs sometimes break up and leave you needing guesswork as to what the poster meant. I got into the habit of using tinyurl because it gives you a string that will fit on a line, or even within a sentence. Downside: it conceals where the link is going, which is a bit bad-mannered. I wish Craig would upgrade his technology a bit – lots of blogs allow you to use the tag with preview. Don’t know if people here find tinyurl more convenient or not. Votes?

Haiti,remember Grenada?…

“Prisoners of the Cold War: Part 1 of 7″…

http://tinyurl.com/y9nwfjb

T-Shirts are on me S M L XL XXL 28 days

9/11 Witnesses are dying. First Kenny Johannemann committed suicide and then Barry Jennings RIP

http://deadlinelive.info/2009/04/16/new-information-on-the-death-of-911-eyewitness-barry-jennings-seems-to-point-to-foul-play/

I guess we should pay better attention to those poor folks who say they are harassed and tortured. Hope Michael Hess is OK – he refuses to open his mouth these days.

Mark, people fall over dead all the time. In fact, no one is spared.

You’re an idiot for exploiting the death of Barry Jennings. He was misused by you creeps just prior to his death.

(btw Craig Murray thinks you’re batshit crazy)

MJ, maybe the point is that no-one believes any ‘official narrative’ wholeheartedly any more. To jump from this to the idea that the US gov blew up the buildings *as well* (or faked the hijacks or faked the phone calls etc etc) is quite a stretch, don’t you think?

Gosh, sorry. I really don’t want this to go on, but it’s like an itchy scab. Off to work for me.

“To jump from this to the idea that the US gov blew up the buildings *as well* (or faked the hijacks or faked the phone calls etc etc) is quite a stretch, don’t you think?”

On the basis of the available evidence, especially re the towers, no.

“MJ, maybe the point is that no-one believes any ‘official narrative’ wholeheartedly any more.”

You really delude yourselves, don’t you?

The “911 Truth Movement” is a failure. In part because you idiots get EVERYTHING wrong. There were more meaningful anomalies presented by the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

Why would they blow up the buildings *as well*? Why?

And once again someone cites a right-wing sources … someone above cited deadlinelive.info

Fucking incredible. That’s Jack Blood, an Alex Jones wannabe.

So, once again, people who identify with the British left wing are being manipulated by the American extreme right wing.

Vronsky: I agree with your reservations but overall I think using tinyurl is a good idea, particularly with urls that are exceedingly long. When they’re very long they sometimes won’t wrap and can cause the page to widen so you have scroll across-ways (which I find v annoying).

Larry, respond to earlier comments before adding more, please. Respond to Alexander Cockburn’s piece if you want an example.

Hello fellow travelers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47wZkFmSGVw

“Don’t know if people here find tinyurl more convenient or not. Votes?”

As a crab, i would only use it for particularly long urls, and things that dont deserve the little bit of search rank that a bare mention bestows.

But i copypaste your urls and then must also convert the dots and slashes too. You damn convoluting linkswine moron!!

oops, sorry, another outburst %]

…

I suppose soon we are going have to get to grips with Obama letting his new pal George Bush invade Haiti while its crushed.

technicolour,

I’ll get to the Cockburn article in a second.

I agree with Cockburn sometimes. I disagree with him sometimes. But I certainly agree with him on his views of the “911 Truth Movement.”

(btw Alexander Cockburn thinks you’re batshit crazy).

In fact, he states, “This won’t faze the nuts. They’re immune to any reality check.”

How does it feel to be someone that Cockburn thinks is deluded?

“Why would they blow up the buildings *as well*?”

Shock and awe (it looked darned dramatic, better than having a couple of planes poking out of two standing buildings); it destroyed evidence of the planes; Silverstein wanted to demolish the buildings anyway, but had been refused permission.

“Phone Calls from the 9/11 Airliners”

“by Prof David Ray Griffin”…

http://tinyurl.com/yc24883

What on earth are you on about, Larry? It seems you can’t tell who has which opinion. Are you reading these threads? Go back to Cockburn and tell me whether you now think the Taliban offered to hand Bin Laden over or not.

MJ: nothing could have been worse than the sight of the planes flying into the buildings.

What do you mean, it destroyed evidence of the planes? The planes clearly exploded on impact. At the same time, there are pictures of lifejackets and paper which survived.

Because Silverstein wanted to demolish the buildings but was refused permission he entered into a plot to kill thousands of people and blow them up anyway?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=165109

can i be batshit crazy?

“Yay! 500! And all about nothing!”

Amazing what a telegram can do, eh ?

The following video is pretty boring. In fact its the last of 3 videos of pretty boring stuff from NIST, but what it does prove conclusively is that WTC7 fell in freefall. Buildings can’t do that – unless they are brought down by controlled demolition. Its very basic physics and maths, that even a 10 year old should be able to understand. You can drop a brick from the top of a building and it will come down in freefall. A building cannot do that, because of the resistance in its construction. It can only come down in freefall, if that resistance is removed, and the only way to remove that resistance, is by destroying it with explosives in a very well understood, and tried and tested method called controlled demolition. Traces of the explosives used have been found in the dust. This isn’t speculation it is fact.

The issue of whoever was responsible is speculation and not discussed here.

Tony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz43hcKYBm4

Description of video

In its draft report, released in August 2008, NIST attempted to cover up evidence that WTC7 fell at freefall, but the coverup was transparent. In its final report, released in November 2008, NIST finally acknowledged freefall, but couched it in a bizarre framework that continues to deny its clear significance. Part I chronicles NIST’s attempted obfuscation and eventual admission of freefall. Part II demonstrates that their replacement theory is based on fabricated evidence and is a continuation of the coverup. Part III spells out the significance of NIST’s admission of freefall.

That Cockburn article is a failure on the part of Cockburn.

You don’t write history on the basis of the recollection of one person. It could very well be the case that Mohabbat had an axe to grind with Bush Jr. It could very well be the case that he was being played by the Taliban (that seems likely). Officially, the Taliban was not offering to hand over Bin Laden prior to 911. It wouldn’t even hand him over to a Muslim country for trial, for fear that that U.S. would kidnap him. Those were their official statements. Now, were there some back-channel communications? Maybe. We would all like to see some documentary evidence of this offer, and not solely rely on hearsay upon hearsay.

To give you an example of why we don’t base history on the oral recollections of one person – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Sada

“it looked darned dramatic, better than having a couple of planes poking out of two standing buildings”

Oh dear. MJ now has fantasies of jumbo jets sticking out of buildings after they’ve crashed into them.

You’re really not that bright, are you, MJ?

It has taken me a while to write this. If the thread has moved on and points have become irrelevent, I apologise.

Vronsky,

I believe that I trust Angrysoba. I’m in e-mail contact and he seems genuine.

Larry,

I believe your problem on this board is your aggressive approach. You upset people and they identify you as the enemy. If you believe that the things you say have true value, I suggestyou say them more gently, in order that they may be accepted.

Angrysoba,

thanks for the info about quote-mining.

Larry again,

considering that quote mining has been going on, it is not surprising that some people here have been misled. Please don’t call the misled stupid. None of us have time to investigate everything.

MJ,

I expect that Afghanistan was invaded because a consensus was reached. Politically, it was believed (please, people, do not jump me – I don’t have time to look into everything) – it was believed that the Saudi hijackers were gathered and organised in Afghanistan. But powerful influences in the US already wanted to secure power in Afghanistan for geopolitical gain – the first and second reasons were not mutually exclusive, rather, they pushed in the same direction.

————

Regarding “Anti Americanism” in general,

There are many reasons that people may have formed anti-US opinions. The US holds nearly half of all the worlds military might. To wield such power with appropriate responsibility would require nearly half of all the world’s wisdom. It seems to me that US power exceeds US wisdom, and resentments have been made.

—————

Current situation:

Haiti is in crisis.

Larry,

Angrysoba,

please do not assume that US forces in Haiti are entirely benevolent. There appear to be millitary and commercial forces there.

People with anti-US feelings,

Please do not assume that US forces in Haiti are entirely malignant.

Most likely, the truth lies somewhere between the extremes. Different individuals in positions of command will make different choices. Apparently (sorry, I can’t check right now), there are ‘US assets’ in Haiti (Disney, Wall-Mart).

Remember that US Government and US commercial concerns are not identical, but they do influence eachother.

———–

PLEASE – we need light, not heat. From the comfort of our computer screens we can do little to help beyond becoming informed. This is what I’m doing next – trying to find out, whilst trying to compensate for the anti-US bias that I know that I hold.

More on Barry Jennings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyKtNHPeKxg

I see things have improved hee since I posted. My apologies if I upset anyone.

Larry! you’ve been posting links! Brilliant.

MJ – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV1lsHPV2yQ

Crab:

‘Obama letting his new pal George Bush invade Haiti while its crushed.’

Links PLEASE!

Remember that you can post one clickable link as your name. Please sign your name in your text is you do.

No Glenn he is not an apologist, he merely sees it as it is, very factual and a good timeline running through his research. he can see events in connection, rather than the division that usually promoted to keep us in the dark. I have not read his book on the 7/7 bombings yet, keep that for a rainy day when i’m more ‘economically opportune’.

Question for everyone -

Why, in all large buildings, is fireproofing insulation coating installed on the steel floor trusses and steel columns?

Angrysoba,

Looks like we handled the Gish Gallop quite well!

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gish_gallop

“The Morning After: Haiti Earthquake Victims Can Only Rely on Each Other – Ansel Herz Dispatch 2″…

http://tinyurl.com/yb2lk5z

Before all this recent nonsense – like near World Wide financial collapse, and this Global Warming bollocks, I thought all this World Government, New World Order, Illuminati crap was a load of crazy conspiracy reptillian shit that David Icke had imagined to flog loads of books to his brain dead sheep. If so well done David Icke.

But now I’m not so sure. Further to my moron link above, I find that the city portrayed in Deek’s video is actually real and being built as I type.

Apart from the climate (its fucking freezing) and the fact that its next door to one of the torture capitals in the world – it looks really cool.

Apparently if you can convince the illuminati, that you believe in their new/old Sun God religion and promise to kneel before the great Alex Jones and suck, they will send you on a full expenses paid trip and you can stop off at the torture gulags on the way and make the captives scream

The new Capital of Kazakhstan has a lot going for it, and though I’d never heard of it before today, it seems it was mainly British designed (built by slaves of course)

Check out Astana – try a few Google searches – and sign up to the New World Order and Brave New World. Throw away all your crucifixes and get a few sun gods instead.

Tony

Guess I was wrong. People here aren’t crazy at all. Not one bit.

Larry, I agree Cockburn should have provided links to the documents.

11-04-2001

Dateline: CAIRO, Egypt

The leader of Afghanistan’s ruling Taliban militia agreed to extradite Osama bin Laden to Saudi Arabia in 1998 but reneged following U.S. strikes on Afghanistan that year, a former head of Saudi intelligence said Saturday.

Rory McCarthy (good journo) Islamabad 2001, the Guardian:

“A senior Taliban minister has offered a last-minute deal to hand over Osama bin Laden during a secret visit to Islamabad, senior sources in Pakistan told the Guardian last night.

For the first time, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden for trial in a country other than the US without asking to see evidence first in return for a halt to the bombing, a source close to Pakistan’s military leadership said.”

Independent Oct 2001

After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush.

The offer yesterday from Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban’s deputy prime minister, to surrender Mr bin Laden if America would halt its bombing and provide evidence against the Saudi-born dissident was not new

It would be nice if you could provide links, but don’t bother …

You’re still taking the Taliban at their word. Also, can’t you see that they were just buying time? If I had Bin Laden, didn’t intend on handing him over, and I were being bombed, of course I would say “Stop bombing and we’ll talk.”

Plus, technicolour, it wasn’t just Bin Laden that we they after – they felt it necessary to destroy the network in Afghanistan. That is, even if they had handed over Bin Laden (which was not going to happen), we’d still have to deal with KSM and all the so-called “Arab-Afghans.” And if the U.S. had Bin Laden in custody – don’t you think those terrorists would stop at nothing to kill people in the West?

Hi Clark, a good link on Haiti news is held up for moderation. But basicly, 10 or 20 thousand troops are going in, there is NO reason to believe theyll leave.

There is a long history of American military intervention in Haiti. It’s usually been brutal.

But now, people at this site seem to think that the U.S. military should stay out and let those poor people starve.

Fuck you all for using the plight of these people to score political points for your own benefit.

Your opinions, as usual, are irrelevant. This time, the American military has intervened for noble and righteous purposes, and the military will leave after certain objectives are reached.

Larry, that’s the point of diplomacy. Jaw, jaw, not war war, remember? Of course I can supply links, or you could just google the words bin laden, bush, taliban and hand over.

You see, when you say ‘the Taliban’ you see a horde of raving fundamentalists; and I see people, some of them mad, some not. Before this last attack, Afghanistan already had the most refugees of any country in the world. It was also one of the most mined countries in the world. It is not a place you bomb from the air in the interests of international diplomacy.

But hey, you got rid of Bush

Obama’s strategy, again? I don’t think I’ve got it quite clear.

do you now want me to defend Obama’s strategy?

Larry,

Its quite clear that most people are crazy, because they believe in stuff, without any supporting evidence whatsoever. Its a combination of various things that you can study in detail if you do a degree in psychology. Much of it is about basic human survival and the need to learn quickly without question, and to be loyal to the tribe.

It makes far more sense for a 3 year old to believe in Father Christmas because he has lots of supporting evidence including Christmas Presents.

However, things are rapidly deterioating, and basic science is no longer taught in most schools. They teach the “story” of science and indoctrinate the kids with religious mumbo jumbo that they call global warming.

The entire idea of religion, and the current entertainment culture is to stop people from thinking for themselves and asking basic questions. Most will believe anything they see on the TV screen, be it manufactured news or an advert to buy some piece of crap that have no need for and which may make them ill.

To answer your question, start a coal fire in a cast iron grate, and get some blacksmith bellows, and blow to make the coal as hot as possible and try and melt some chocolate before you put the tea in it.

Tony

Larry. Nope, was asking you what you thought you knew about it.

test

I like Glenn’s original question

“Can anyone think of a privatisation which made things better for customers, workers, or indeed for the country as a whole?”

Did anyone?

Being very charitable, I suppose one could argue that the privatisation of the gas and electricity suppliers brought competition, which pushed prices down a bit at first. But no, not really, since you ask.

The USA was effectively privatised after they told the British to piss off.

Whilst this did nothing good for the indigenous North American Indians, the white European invaders did extremely well for themselves at least until around the late 1970′s.

Meanwhile most of the State Controlled East eg Russia and China went through sheer hell, genocide and poverty.

Since the late 1970′s though, under the label of Globalisation, the USA has seen a significant fall in its real standard of living, with most of its wealth creating industries being outsourced abroad for enhanced corporate profit using foreign slave labour. Yet in order to survive above poverty level, both American husband and wife have to work full time, yet they are creating little real value. Until the 1970′s, the family could be supported by just one income.

Rather than being Privatised, The USA is now under the control of large corporate companies who control the government – ie the USA is effectively under State/Corporate Control. This is very close to Fascism which is even worse than Communism.

I would certainly have preferred to live in the USA, rather than Russia or China during the last century. However, that position may well be reversed now.

The fall of the American Empire is likely to be extremely painful and ugly.

Americans have been working their butts off and creating mayhem across the planet, and impoverished themselves in the process. They would have been better off staying at home and developing their own resources.

Tony

MJ

Back in the 1980s…Thatcher burnt off most of the UK north sea gas (20/25 years worth) into the atmosphere in order to give tax cuts to get re-elected and to make money for her friends in the nuclear industry. I remember three people going into number 10 to BEG Thatcher NOT to burn off all that north sea gas (picture off it was in papers at the time).They told her it would soon be needed…It was about three days later she came out off number 10 and was asked…”why are you going to burn off all that gas” she said…”I have agonised over this but feel it is the best thing to do”…I will remember that till my dying day. Norway spent their money to save their gas at the same time as Thatcher burnt off the UK gas and are now selling it to the UK.

George,

I don’t understand. Why did burning off the gas enable tax cuts?

Sorry, George, I meant ‘how’, not ‘why’.

Clark

I don’t know all the technical details but the gas had to be stored and that was going to cost a lot of money. We had the money to store the gas but in doing so Thatcher would have been unable to cut taxes which was one of her key aims.

“Looks like we handled the Gish Gallop quite well!”

Thanks! Not heard of the Gish Gallop before but I’ve definitely experienced it.

In fact, it was in an Irish pub that someone began telling me that “The collapse of the Twin Towers happened at freefall speed which is physically impossible according to the laws of physics and they used thermite squibs made in secret laboratories and Larry Silverspoon said he would demolish the buildings on live TV and then the Americans went to Iraq and they chopped off Nick Berg’s head in Abu Ghraib….”

And on and on and on…

In fact, as Clark says no one has time to check out all of these outrageous claims so they can end up going into the “Maybe” box IF they sound plausible and if they come from a trustworthy source.

Clark,

I think it was a case of maximising oil revenues, which was extremely short sighted. If you drill for oil, you are also likely to find gas, and storing it and transporting it is expensive. The government could have stopped the oil companies from flaring off the gas, by better management.

If it hadn’t have been for North Sea oil and gas, the UK would have been totally screwed 30 years ago, instead of being totally screwed now.

Energy, Food and Water independence is extremely important. We are probably going to have to re-open some new coal mines, because windmills are bloody useless in a winter anti-cyclone that lasts for months.

The Thatcher government may have been irresponsible with regards to long term energy planning, but the current lot (all parties) are completely insane in believing this CO2 causing global warming nonsense.

Burning coal in a power station is not a problem. Freezing and starving to death is.

Tony

“Can anyone think of a privatisation which made things better for customers, workers, or indeed for the country as a whole?”

I wasn’t here before they were privatised but Japan’s railways seem to run perfectly well. As far as I know the jobs are well-sought after. The trains are puntual except on the occasions that someone throws themselves in front of one. The prices aren’t high (I think British trains are more expensive). The different train companies run on their own tracks and have their own stations so there is no co-ordination problem like there seems to be in the UK or buck-passing etc…

Some unprofitable trainlines did close down, which is the only downside I can see.

angrysoba,

No one talks like that in an Irish pub, well not unless you go to a little room upstairs – I guess. You’ve not been inflitrating 9/11 truther meetings have you?

What else can you tell us about it?

Tony

“No one talks like that in an Irish pub, ”

Then I take it you sound nothing like you do here when you’re in the pub.

“What else can you tell us about it?”

The guy was nuts. An all too common malardy of the Internet age.

I just looked back at the title of the thread …

“Weather is here, wish you were lovely”

MARK GOLDING — RESPONDING TO YOUR QUESTION

After 3 years with them, I reached a decision that I did not want a long term career with Grosvenor. I had previously been told (by their CEO) that Grosvenor is a job for life and that good people never left Grosvenor. This statement of their CEO’s was I felt was a bit ominous, particularly as I was aware that a previous executive leaver had been professionally defamed / character assassinated after he had left the company, and that they had used the intelligence services to do it (a description of this was provided by me to the South Manchester Police in 2004 in writing (and Home Office in 2005), and it’s referred to on the videotape I made in 2006 with their Sergeant Hudson) ?” it is also referred to on the WIKI Chapter 7, item 11. I protested internally about this at the time, and because I knew they had used intelligence to defame him secretly (without his knowledge) I was absolutely appalled (and I believe it’s a precedent to what later happened in my case).

So (just to ensure that I wasn’t slandered) I gave Grosvenor a nice excuse and a long notice period; I leant over backwards to make the transition easy for them. Their relationship with intelligence was such that I knew I couldn’t look around without them knowing. During the 6 month notice, I was twice asked to reconsider my decision to resign and refused. I should just mention that I was heavily in demand in those days (before giving my notice) and that my relationship with headhunters was very good, so I didn’t have any doubt that I would obtain a first class job during the 6 months of notice. In fact, Grosvenor was to be the last permanent job I had in Canada to this day. Headhunters, who once courted me, now crossed the Street to avoid me. The change was like turning off a light switch. This is what MI6′s I/OPS “dirty tricks” department is capable of.

A top Civil lawyer, who I have known for years, who has headed up a major worldwide practice area for a large international law firm, who knows the story, who personally knows another whom Grosvenor Vancouver slandered, is scared of then. Referring to Grosvenor he said that they have “FAR TOO MUCH POWER”.

Let me give you an example of influence peddling. I gather you are a military man. Let us take Grosvenor’s owner. He stayed at school until nearly 20 and got one “O” level, yes ONE at age 20. And an expensive school too. On 11/2/2007 he was described in the Daily Mail as being “so very foolish”. Nevertheless influence made him Deputy Chief of Defence Staff in time of war.

With respect to your specific items:

(1) I left on friendly terms and was given a leaving party. Friendly to my face; slandered behind my back. I don’t think most executives knew what was going on (though the very top did); I didn’t either. A lawyer has given me a Canadian legal term to describe this “fraudulent concealment”

(2) I acquired knowledge that had nothing to do with business though it could affect 2 (c) (and I protested internally about this incident as well as the 1st paragraph incident). I have never threatened to disclose it. I do not believe it has anything to do with any of this. I did make reference to it to the Manc. Police. Look this company slandered all executive leavers; it is as simple as that, though god knows why! As for 2(b), not at the time and not when the intimidation started. More recently I have written to parliamentary committees and discussed this subject ?” because I believe it may be pertinent to the cover-up conspiracy. I do have reasons. I would much prefer to have all of this handled confidentially, but failing that as a matter of necessity I will put it on the internet.

Why did I resign from Grosvenor before getting another situation? Because I was heavily in demand and very highly though of at the time, and didn’t doubt that I would be spoilt for choice ?” what actually happened is amazing and I never expected it. Before I left Grosvenor I had been regarded by the headhunting community for some years to be a bit of a star. Anyway, I knew that I couldn’t look around without them knowing. This was not in any way a normal company; this company had the intelligence services at its beck and call. A bit like the movie “the firm” except its associations were with intelligence, rather than the mafia.

Did the price of gas and electricity go down immediately after privitisation? I don’t recall that, but I do remember there was a ‘nuclear levy’ which was added to electricity bills. The gov’t wanted to privitise the nuclear arm too, but then it was suddenly discovered to be hideously costly compared with any other means. Even when the gov’t insured the installations (because no private company would be mad enough to do so), Nuclear Electric produced the most expensive electricity on the grid. So every bill had the much disliked £11 – odd ‘nuclear levy’.

The ‘internal market’ of the electricity boards were a wonder to behold. Before, the various generating methods complemented each other – for instance, coal plants take a long time to ramp up and down, the nuclear plants worked a little faster, but gas generation was almost instantaneous.

But rather than leave the coal plants provide for the base load, nuclear the secondary loads and gas for emergencies and the fluctuating top end of demand, as logic would appear to demand, it was done the other way around. Gas plants were really cheap for the operator, because you only needed one man and a dog to run it. Even if the precious, limited resource of gas was being recklessly wasted this way. So they ran full blast all the time – the much criticised “dash for gas”, you may recall. Next, nuclear plants ran as hard as they could, because they had to recover costs from their fantastically expensive installations, trying to reduce the levy. Then coal had to ramp up and down to meet the fluctuating top of load demands, an almost impossible task, so a lot of electricity was just sent to ground (with National Power picking up the tab for that debacle).

I could go on at some length…

glenn: I agree. I was trying very hard to rise to the challenge and think of something. I don’t think the privatisation of the power utilities, or indeed any of the other services, were of any benefit whatsoever to the great majority of the population. It was simply a device to transfer key social assets in the hands of the banks.

“This was not in any way a normal company; this company had the intelligence services at its beck and call”

Roderick: this is at the core of your very disturbing story. It is also the part I find most difficult to comprehend. How can a private company have such influence over the security services? Does the company do work for the state? Is it to do with some kind of ‘old boy network’? I just don’t get it.

MJ: All this happened not just because of the ideological requirement to transfer money back – where it belongs – into the hands of the already wealthy. There’s a religious belief that, left to itself, The Market will bring about perfection. Competition will weed out every weakness in any system. Which is kind of odd, because co-orporation is what has brought almost every useful advance in civilisation.

Examples are numerous – betamax was inferior to VHS, but market forces determined VHS would dominate once it had gained a crucial foothold. Microsoft is a terrible infliction upon humanity, but has got all but a monopoly through market forces. The most ludicrous events occur as a market-driven expediency as a matter of course, and it’s just ignored – waved away – every time some apologist/capitalist True Believer wants to start talking (with a far-away look through a watery eye, and a lump in the throat) about how wonderful fully-fledged free-market lassie-faire capitalism would be, if those damned government-types with their red-tape and regulations would just get out of the way.

One more anecdote, please indulge me. The internal market to provide electricity for the national grid took the form of the main companies placing bids of how much per unit they’d charge. A bidding war one day in the early 1990′s drove the price/unit down to zero, so they were actually giving the electricity to the grid suppliers for free. Gas generation halted at once, but coal and nuclear couldn’t just stop production. The grid (distribution companies) made a handsome profit, until Scottish Power realised the potential, and bought vast amounts of free electricity to pump water to the top of its hydroelectric dam, filling it. When sanity prevailed and the price/unit was established at a reasonable level again, Scottish Power operated the hydroelectric generators, cashing in on all that free power they’d been given. Praise the sanity of capitalism, and trebles all round!

One reason I don’t like Microsoft…

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

Vronsky: “Can you imagine the Second Coming if it takes place in the US of A? A cigar-chewing General Jesus H. Christ and his platoon of disciples – Lootenant Peter, Sergeant Andrew, Private Judas.”

Hahaha oh man that mad me laugh. I would make just one small change, if it’s a US production then Judas would definitely be the science advisor. Pontius Pilate, French or Arab?

“You want redemption?”

“YOU CAN’T HANDLE REDEMPTION!”

*Starts shooting*

*lobs grenade*

MJ

Look at my comment above to Mark Golding. Do you see my paragraph about influence peddling re the appointment of a deputy chief of defense staff. All the facts check out ?” Its amazing. Being able to influence the security services is far less amazing than being able to influence an appointment like this in war time.

Then look at what happened when my wife and I went to the Guardian. Our personal file disappeared from their secure office (letter on the wiki from their managing editor confirms this). Fortunately just copies. My wife and I were threatened after leaving their offices; in one 24 hour period, my house was smashed into by a vehicle (property damage confirms), and my eldest son received very nasty telephone death threats in front of witnesses which he recorded. The transcript of the threats is on the wiki. Yet, the guardian is scared to investigate. A year later I filed a copy of that file with a Judge, and it disappeared again from the judge’s papers (transcript of the hearings confirms) Being able to influence the security services is far less amazing than being able to do all this and get away with it.

A weak ago on a couple of blogs on craig’s site I mentioned the extrordinary close relationship between grosvenor and the royal family. Some think that this would be enough to influence the security services.

Yes, I’m amazed that they can influence the security service, but it seems they can. What’s more amazing is that this case clearly demonstrates that the high establishment (and you won’t get much higher than this) can operate above the law with impunity. It is not just mine, but your civil rights and every body else’s that are on the line here. It is amazing that more people don’t demand justice.

It is still being covered up. 3rd party evidence on the wiki proves that. All I’m getting from the security services and their hired hacks is more smears. It would be nice to have some help. Plenty of evidence, and plenty of witnesses other than myself ?” look on the wiki for details. I am a little bloged out, and have to concentrate on getting my next articles out