Basically it boils down to the fact thatthe US views the lives of Iraqis and Afghans as insignificant.

It’s sickening. But I hope those that are trying to bring a prosecution don’t give up and move it to a higher court.

Disgusting. I gather it’s tied up with GW Bush effectively giving immunity to Blackwater. I would dearly love to see this going to another court. But I’m not expecting very much. They have been given further contracts in Af-Pak — as they call it.

But as Ruth says, the lives of Iraqis and Afghans do not equate to American lives. Never did.

To understand US attitudes to “Terrorist” actions such as attempted murder with exploding underpants, as against “legitimate acts of warfare” such as attacking wedding parties with air strikes one needs the concepts of “the legitimate direction of violence and revenge” as against “the illegitimate direction of violence and revenge”.

It is legitimate for the USA and Israel to desire vengeance against those that have harmed them, to seek such vengeance and to use military action to gain it by such as invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen or Gaza. This military action however in no way entitles the other side to want vengeance, or obtain vengeance against the USA or Israel.

The legitimate direction of revenge and violence is from the USA/Israel to anyone else, the illegitimate direction of revenge and violence is from Arabs, Muslims or anyone attacked by the USA/Israel towards The USA/Israel.

So when Saudi Arabia attacked the USA by aeroplaning the World trade Centre and the Pentagon it was legitimate for the USA to gain revenge by invading Iraq, after all the Iraqis like The Saudis are Arabs and all Arabs not just the Saudi Royals can be held responsible for September 11.

The legitimate direction for revenge, violence and military action is from the righteous against the unrighteous. The USA is exceedingly righteous being full of born again Christians of the type that shoot abortion doctors. The Arab world on the other hand is unrighteously full of people who hate America and are therefore unrighteous.

I do not believe that Arabs or Muslims believe that there is such a thing as an innocent US or Israeli civilian any more than citizens of the US and Israel believe there is such a thing as innocent Arab, Palestinian or Muslim.

In the war between Judeo-Christians and Muslims both side consider all members of the other collective responsible collectively for all actions of that side. The underpants bomber may concede that the other passengers on his flight did not themselves attack Afghans from predator drones but he would hold them guilty none the less as they would have sympathised with those who did and if they did not actually sympathise, failed to do enough to demonstrate this.

Likewise Israelis consider all inhabitants of Gaza as guilty for the rocketing of Israel and thus legitimate targets for artillery and air strikes on the basis that they sympathise with the ultimate goals of those that fire the rockets or are not sufficiently strident in expressing their opposition to the rocketing.

Personally I will cheer when a less incompetent apparel bomber manages to down a US airliner and off a couple of hundred of passengers. This will at least partly make up for the injustice represented by the impunity of the Blackwater murderers.

“Personally I will cheer when a less incompetent apparel bomber manages to down a US airliner and off a couple of hundred of passengers. ”

When the US downed an Iranian civilian airliner during the Iran-Iraq war it was a disgusting war crime.

The same will be true if a less incompetent apparel bomber downs a civilian US airliner. If it happens, I hope you choke to death on your champagne you nasty little misanthropist.

Those murderous Blackwater thugs slaughtered one of our people giving aid to hospitals.

doctorsforiraq.org

Hi angry,

The Chinese have a saying, “Respect the mouth or lose the tongue.”

Hey you have seen my face, where can I see yours?

But all the people in Gitmo will be tried and their “confessions” will be okay.

There is one, pretty large, silver linging in this dark cloud: precedent.

As Craig notes, using “duress” as a reason to quash charges will work both ways.

If I was a lawyer in the USA, whenever evidence obtained under torture, however defined, was used as the basis for a case I would shout “Blackwater” very loudly!

Carlye Moulton:

Terrorism is terrorism whether committed by a fanatic or a state – in the latter case it’s called a war crime – in Gaza, the bombing of Pakistani civilians by drone planes, or wherever.

Anyone who would cheer at the death of innocent civilians (on any “side”) needs to take a long, hard look at themself. I wonder if you would take the same view if any of your family or friends were the innocent victim of such a terrorist attack?

The Nazi’s have lost the plot and things are likely to get considerably worse for nearly everyone. To send Gary McKinnon there who did nothing except expose the fact that the US Military didn’t use any passwords is a gross violation of his human rights. They will probably string him up by his balls for embarrassing the stupid bastards.

Get out while you still can.

Tony

angrysoba,

it’s me that is drinking champagne, not Carlyle, and I won’t cheer when innocent people on any “side” are killed. Neither am I anything but sad when US, UK and allied soldiers are killed, or when young Afghan men defending their homeland are killed.

On the other hand, while I am not happy when Blackwater or Aegis hired killers are killed, neither am I sad.

It’s the sort of thing that happens when you have an independent judiciary and the rule of law.

Otherwise the government could just declare them guilty and impose a sentence. That would have been much more convenient for all concerned.

The Justice department wanted these men prosecuted. It is disappointed that the evidence was thrown out. But that’s what happens when it is improperly used (not obtained, used) as clearly happened in this case.

Well done the judge for sticking to the procedural niceties, even if the result is a terrible blow to the families of the victims. It’s entirely the fault of the prosecutors for cutting corners and breaking the rules.

“Exclusive: Secret Army squad ‘abused Iraqis’”

Independent.co.uk:

http://tinyurl.com/y9uzyr4

“Fourteen fresh claims of torture against the British Army include detailed accounts of a shadowy team of military and MI5 interrogators who are alleged to have authorised the physical and sexual abuse of Iraqi detainees …”

“Fourteen fresh claims of torture against the British Army include detailed accounts of a shadowy team of military and MI5 interrogators who are alleged to have authorised the physical and sexual abuse of Iraqi detainees ..

The UK intelligenc services don’t restrict their torture to Iraqi detainees. Torture both mental and physical is used against UK citizens caught up in illegal government activities.

The Law shouldn’t be confused with “Justice.” Dismissing the case against the Blackwater mercenaries on a “technicality” is outrageous, because one has to balance the nature of the apparent legal cockup with the crime, the deaths of 17 innocent civilians and dozens of wounded. This kind of judgement sends out absolutely terrible signals about the relative value we, in the West, put on Arab lives, compared to the legal rights of our mercenaries.

But then American “justice” is “class-based” and there are countless examples of how “unjust” it is in practice, in a system where race, class, and money are just as important as the law.

What most people don’t realize is that there are tens of thousands of these mercenaries working in Iraq and Afghanistan, as war is increasingly privatized.

At the core, our cause, our crusade, is perceived as ligitimate and just, and theirs is not. We only use violence as a last resort and we don’t target civilians deliberately, in contrast to the terrorists, who kill with glee and without restraint. We are civilised and they are barbarians. At least this is our ideological justification for our actions. We are only reacting to unprovoked attacks. We are peace-loving people and we are being attacked for, ultimately, “no reason.” For who we are, for how we live, for our values; not for what we do. We are being attacked for spite, out of envy, by bloodthirsty savages.

Obviously this form of argument on behalf of our rulers is very convenient as it absolves us from any responsibility or guilt. The attacks on us come out of a clear, cloudless, blue sky and have no rhyme or reason, or motive.

This means we don’t have to examine what we do, only what we feel. What seems to characterize the West is our collosal ignorance, hypocracy, and overweening narcissism. We are the threatened, we are the innocent victims; even when we kill hundreds in response to every terrorist victim.

The Full Body Scanners that Gordon Brown is threatening to introduce use X-Rays. Don’t believe the manufacturer’s hype that these give a “safe” dose of radiation.

Tony

Extract from noworldsystem.com/2009/12/31/full-body-scanners-to-fry-travelers-with-radiation

“Officials must naturally defend compulsory passenger X-rays as harmless. But they are signing no guarantees because ionizing radiation in the X-ray spectrum damages and mutates both chromosomal DNA and structural proteins in human cells. If this damage is not repaired, it can lead to cancer. New research shows that even very low doses of X-ray can delay or prevent cellular repair of damaged DNA, raising questions about the safety of routine medical X-rays. Unborn babies can become grotesquely disfigured if their mothers are irradiated during pregnancy. Heavily X- rayed persons of childbearing age can sustain chromosomal damage, endangering offspring. Radiation damage is cumulative and each successive dose builds upon the cellular mutation caused by the last. It can take years for radiation damage to manifest pathology.

A leading U.S. expert on the biological effects of X-radiation is Dr. John Gofman, Professor Emeritus of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley. Dr. Gofman’s exhaustive research leads him to conclude that there is NO SAFE DOSE-LEVEL of ionizing radiation. His studies indicate that radiation from medical diagnostics and treatment is a causal co-factor in 50 percent of America’s cancers and 60 percent of our ischemic (blood flow blockage) heart disease. He stresses that the frequency with which Americans are medically X-rayed “makes for a significant radiological impact.”

This highly credentialed nuclear physicist states: “The fact, that X-ray doses are so seldom measured, reflects the false assumption that doses do not matter… [but] they do matter enormously. And each bit of additional dose matters, because any X-ray photon may be the one which sets in motion the high-speed, high energy electron which causes a carcinogenic or atherogenic [smooth muscle] mutation. Such mutations rarely disappear. The higher their accumulated number in a population, the higher will be the population’s mortality rates from radiation-induced cancer and ischemic heart disease.”

A report in the British medical journal Lancet noted that after breast mammograms were introduced in 1983, the incidence of ductal carcinoma (12 percent of breast cancer) increased by 328 percent, of which 200 percent was due to the use of mammography itself. A Lawrence Berkeley National Lab study has demonstrated that breast tissue is extremely susceptible to radiation-induced cancer, confirming warnings by numerous experts that mammograms can initiate the very cancers they may later identify. Dr. Gofman believes that medical radiation is a co-factor in 75 percent of breast cancer cases. So why would girls and women want their breast tissues irradiated every time they take a commercial flight?”

‘We are the threatened, we are the innocent victims; even when we kill hundreds in response to every terrorist victim.’

Worse is the fact that these victims may have been killed by our own secret services to create such a retaliation

“Justice” has to apply to everyone equally, regardless of sex, religion, race, ethnicity… If we undermine the “universal” nature of our standards of justice, then we undermine justice itself as a concept, and it changes into Injustice.

The case of the Blackwater mercenaries reveals more about how we really perceive the worth of Arabs, compared to us, than a hundred of Obama’s sickly speeches and tiresome rhetoric. The judgement is the reality, not the sham. And it will echo around the Muslim world, making us even more unpopular than we already are, if that’s possible!

But the answer isn’t attacks on innocent and soft civilian targets by acts of terrorism. Not only are they meaningless in a purely military sense, they are also counter-productive, they only strengthen the imperialist warmongers and make their job easier. Our leaders don’t give a damn how many civilians are killed. They have as little regard for us, as they have for the civilian deaths in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Gaza. We don’t matter. We are expendible, like our soldiers. Most people have little wealth, and therefore little value. That’s how it is in our market system, where everything has a price value. No money, no value. More money, more value.

Terrorism isn’t a threat to us in any meaningful military sense. The United States, the world’s greatest military empire cannot be threatened by terrorist atrocities aimed at the homeland. And as public opinion doesn’t really matter anymore, these terror attacks are useless publicity stunts.

Terrorist attacks are a sign of military weakness, not strength, but they do cause us to react out of all proportion to the real threat we face.

It’s like the terrorists are allied with our leaders in an unholy alliance, a veritable dance of death, a waltz, not a war.

“We” need them as much as they need us.

We are drawn ever deeper into an endless, unwinnable, asymetric conflict, that bleeds us dry, and leads towards bankruptcy. Yet we are willing partners in this dance, because increasingly, war is what we are. What we “produce” and “sell” and “export”, is war and destruction. The West has become a gangster, state/empire, selling protection and carving up territory, and the non-existant “threat” from terrorists is our excuse. Without them and their “threat”, things would be so much more difficult for us.

Of course, most of this makes us seem like monsters, which I suppose, is what our rulers have become, as they drag us willingly or unwillingly towards Hell.

I was brought up to think that we were the good guys. Then, there was Vietnam. We were still the good guys, but the US’s image now seemed tarnished, to say the least.

It wasn’t until Blair led Clinton into bombing Serbian civilians that I started to think what was (for me) the unthinkable… we were becoming the bad guys too. And under a labour government at that(!)

As should be obvious by now, I hadn’t studied history very much. As I did I discovered that “we” had been bad guys as well, but previouslyly such matters had all been dealt with behind the scenes. All Blair did was take off the veneer of unreality that the British State was any better than the US.

But, if I may generalise, there is a difference between peoples… people in the US have been brought up for generations not to question what their country was doing, but to support the flag. In the UK – since 1945 at least – that has just not been the case at all, and the glories of the former British Empire was a period of our history that many would rather like to forget about.

I accept that there may be 30% of present-day Brits who would support just about any war that Blair propaganded about… but there is still a majority that don’t come into that category, and who won’t accept the bullshit or double standards. Fortunately, or unfortunately, we are generally a docile lot, and don’t protest too much, but that doesn’t mean that we comply. An inconvenient truth, perhaps, for those who spend our taxes. Does that independence of mind make us a “failed state”, as one US poster put in on an earlier thread?

Are the terrorists really being “played” by our intelligence services? How stupid are the terrorists? Why do they bother?

Apart from the questionable morality of of attacking and killing the innocent civilians, surely it’s doesn’t really make military sense, given that we are apparently looking for any excuse to launch attacks on our enemies, especially if they are unlucky enough to have valuable resources that we want.

Supposedly, Bin Laden, wants to draw us into a trap, into the graveyard of empires, and calmly watch us destroy ourselves and bleed ourselves to death. This is similar to the tactics used by terrorists in Europe, which was designed to force the state to over react and reveal it’s true nature from behind the democratic mask, as a fascist/imperialist state. Then the masses will be forced to see society for what it really is, and then they will react and rise against it.

Now these theories are highly questionable, to say the least. Not least the idea that the masses will react and rise up in a revolution and overthrow the fascist state. This seems like a qaint, romantic, illusion. If revolutions were that easy to set in motion, there would be more of them. Maybe terrorists just aren’t very smart, or maybe, like the european terrorist groups of the seventies, they are in fact being “played” and “employed” by the very state they think they are fighting against? That they are on the same side?

And now, of course, Gordon Brown is going to bring in all-body scanners at British airports. Reference to latest speech:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brown-warns-of-evolving-terrorist-threat-to-uk-1854755.html

Comments on this article suggest that people are getting more and more peed off by our governments approach to “the war on terror”. Perhaps even some of those who originally supported it…

First the shoe bomber – and we all had to start taking our shoes off.

Now the underpants bomber – and we all have to submit to full body scans.

I can’t wait for the ‘body cavity bomber’

This from an anonymous commenter on Stuart Syvret’s blog:

“Again, the legal system drops serious charges for technical reasons – in this case because incriminating interviews with the defendants soon after the incident were ruled effectively inadmissible because they had had been told that, if they gave statements, those statements would not be used in evidence.

Yet another example of the deep rooted spiritual corruption of legal systems whereby those who administer the law pay too much attention to the letter of the law and not enough to the spirit of the law. Thus, a bunch of trigger happy mercenaries get away with murdering 17 Iraqis on the technicality that their own admissions of the truth afterwards were inadmissible because the US State Department had told them that those admissions wouldn’t be used against them in some ghastly ‘fifth amendment’ perversion of Justice.”

It it that simple or where does the duress angle come in. Is it both?

Exploding dental filings

“I can’t wait for the ‘body cavity bomber’”

Can’t be long. Especially if they assume that they’re going to kill themselves anyway.

angrysoba

“When the US downed an Iranian civilian airliner during the Iran-Iraq war it was a disgusting war crime.”.

Then someone must have been convicted for this crime, please tell me who it was.

derek, dreoilin,

We’ve already had the body cavity bomber — I think it was in Saudi.

After all, suppositories aren’t lethal, and it is a long-established way of smuggling .

Happy New Y to all . frog

It never ceases to amaze me how British citizens constantly attack America over problems that we can do little about, while totally avoiding nasty issues at home that one might be able to do something about? There is a rather hypocritical double standard to this. It is almost as if one is subconsciously being directed down avenues that let our own sometimes-abusive establishment off the hook by providing America as a whipping boy. Issues like mine don’t seem to bother you at all ?” I am a nuisance for raising these uncomfortable issues that don’t relate to America, but may relate to the Royal Family and certainly relate to overriding rule of law and neutering your parliament, your democracy, and your freedoms. I realize that I am a real nuisance for pointing out the sheer hypocrisy and dishonest double standard being applied by institutions such as The Guardian and Amnesty International. But the double standard goes beyond human rights issues. Are you not bothered by the fact that your establishment through its incompetent management and bailout of the banking system has burdened future generations with levels of debt not seen since World War 11? Do you not understand what this will do to your standard of living, since other EU countries are not burdened to the same extent. I am not a socialist, I believe in free markets; but it bothers me that taxpayer funded bonuses were paid to bankers for bankrupting their banks. We British were once described as lions led by donkeys; it seems to me that sheep would be a more appropriate word than lion.

I find the terms “innocent victim”, “innocent bystander” and “innocent civilian” offensive and hypocritical.

They are set off against the words “terrorist” and “terrorism” to selectively delegitimise one side in a war. Israel has been at war with the Palestinians since the late nineteenth century but in 1947 Israel acquired the legitimacy of a state with an army while the Palestinians became stateless persons not entitled to make war.

The greatest hypocrisy is to propagate the idea that civilians should be off limits. In the second world war, Germany bombed London a civilian city as it had every right to do and in return the allies bombed many German cities including Dresden that were purely civilian as they had a perfect right to do. Before the war ended the USA used the atomic bomb on the civilian cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as they had every right to do, and the Japanese have no right to whine that the yanks atomic bombed us. It seems to me that in war civilians should be legitimate targets even if the only effect of splattering them over the landscape is to damage the morale of their soldier relatives. But there are many other reasons to target civilians. Civilians support the civilian economy which in turn supports the war economy, civilians pay taxes used to support the military, civilian women become mothers of soldiers, civilian children are future soldiers. Civilians man the munitions and armaments factories that make the weapons and ammunition.

Were I a Palestinian, a Muslim or an Arab, I would cheer at every Israeli, US citizen or UK citizen dead at Muslim hands.

In every war civilians get killed as legitimate collateral damage when they happen to be where the enemy thinks there are legitimate targets and this is regrettable but tough gorganzola.

Let’s apply the rules that we apply to Arabs and Muslim illegal warriors to The Second World war. The French Resistance were terrorists and the German legal occupiers of France had every right to treat them to firing parties as the evil, vile, despicable criminals that they were.

I think we miss the point about the main motives of terrorists. We are wrong to assume that their actions are aimed at achieving political goals, I think the Palestinians are aware that the land that they owned is lost to them, but they have not yet been reduced to the same level of abject demoralization as have the dispossessed indigenous peoples of North and South America and of Australia.

The Palestinians want revenge on the Jews, and a ratio of one dead Jew to 100 dead Palestinians in the conflict makes it worth it for them, the revenge on that one dead is so sweet. The same motive as spread across the Arab and Muslim world so that fighters are flocking to Iraq so they can kill Americans.

In one episode of Star Trek Enterprise, the Enterprise picked up some stranded aliens. These aliens had undertaken a process that converted parts of their bodies to high explosive and they could detonate themselves at will. They used this ability to take control of the ship.

Of course this Star Trek idea is fanciful but even better than the body cavity bomb would be the fully implanted one. I would recommend that potential bombers have surgeons plant high explosive bombs in their abdomens several months before their trip, giving enough time for the scars to heal. The bomb could be triggered by a radio signal. We should get as many trick bomb ideas out into the public domain as quickly as possible so that the authorities can place more restrictions on air travelers as soon as possible to prevent them. At least it will make air travel so inconvenient that its contribution to green house will go down.

“it’s me that is drinking champagne, not Carlyle, and I won’t cheer when innocent people on any “side” are killed.”

I know it is you drinking champagne. I am reacting to the idiot called Carlyle who wants to “celebrate” the deaths of those who happen to be on an airliner.

All I’m saying is I hope he chokes to death on his preferred method of celebrating the deaths of innocent people.

The solution to the fully implanted bomb is to have air passengers undergo NMR imaging at airports. NMR can pick up the presence of large concentrations of nitrogen that characterize explosives.

I think those full body scanners do not use X-rays, rather millimeter wave lengths. These can see through clothes so the scanee appears naked except for any concealed weapons.

angrysoba.

I admit, I don’t like humans and have a particular dislike for the nations of the USA, the UK and Australia (my country) that combined in the coalition of the willing to punish Iraq for the aeroplaning of The World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.

Yes if a Qantas plane that blows up has on it someone that I know, I will feel regret for that person but for no others. I believe that all Australians including me are guilty for electing the governments lead by John Winston Howard that joined in the war against Iraq. Australia has comitted a crime and Australia deserves punishment for it just as do the USA and the UK. The only people willing to inflict punishment on these nations appear to be the terrorists. I do not see any movement to bring Tony Blair, George W or John Winston Howard to court for their war crimes in Iraq.

angrysoba.

You may call me evil, but please not stupid.

Intense self righteous hatred is normal human behaviour and as a human I am entitled to exhibit it.

Carlyle, you are stupid and loathsome and the sooner you commit suicide the sooner this planet is rid of a little more trash.

FUCK YOU!

Carlyle Moulton,

You are a stupid cunt.

Carlyle Moulton said “Personally I will cheer when a less incompetent apparel bomber manages to down a US airliner and off a couple of hundred of passengers.”

Can you please tell us the next time you fill be flying to we can make sure to shoot down the plane!

“Yet evidence given by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during hundreds of torture sessions, including over a hundred sessions of waterboarding, is admissible in the US …”

Are you sure you have your facts straight on that, Craig?

Carlyle Moulton

I think we, the citizens of the UK, who elected Tony Blair again after the Iraqi war are the most guilty.

I too have an intense dislike of the UK having firsthand experience of the total corruption within the country. I commiserate with Roderick Russell. I know exactly how he feels. All I can say is that every dog has its da

Happy new Year Assholes!

Carlyle Moulton – you guys took your best shot at me and you failed – like you losers always do.

But I thought Saddam was our friend.

Achmed the Jihadist.

I very rarely fly, I really don’t like it and all the inconvenience introduced at airports to prevent terrorism give more reasons for not doing so.

If we were rational about terrorism we would ignore it. The actual chance of dying from terrorist action in an aircraft or elsewhere is very low. The September the 11 airlinerings were the most spectacularly successful terrorist acts ever, but it only killed a paltry 3000 people, about a tenth of a years US fire arms death I believe. It will be very difficult to repeat as no crew and passengers on any future airline flight are going to be intimidated by box cutters into letting hijackers into the cock pit. The fourth September 11 plane never reached its target because of rebellion by the passengers and crew who knew the fate first one.

There are so many other causes of death which take a much greater toll every year, the inability of many Americans to afford health care for example. It seems to me that the World War II London blitz did not demoralize the UK the way a few paltry terrorist attacks have scared the USA and the UK. Of course the aims of terrorists and politicians in the target countries converge. Politicians are quite happy to have the population running around like headless chooks in irrational fear as they can introduce laws that increase the control of the population by Government and wind back civil liberties. i don’t believe all the terrorist events are false flag operations by the US and UK governments but I would not be surprised if a few of them turned out to be such.

Show me a politician and I will show you a person who thinks people like him should have more power to control everyone else.

Larry,

“CIA interrogators used the controverisal waterboarding technique 183 times on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind the September 11, 2001, attacks and 83 times on another al-Qaeda suspect, according to The New York Times.

A 2005 Justice Department memorandum revealed that the simulated drowning technique was used on Mohammed 183 times in March 2003.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6130165.ece

angrysoba

He who first starts to refer to reproductive organs has lost.

Carlyle Moulton,

I think you’re right about citizen casualties. When a nation declares war particularly a democratically elected one we’re all in it. If we don’t like it and particularly if our country is the aggressor we should be doing whatever possible and by whatever means to bring an end to the government, which is in effect carrying out acts of murder.

Over the years, I’ve noticed that defenders of the official coincidence theory of 9/11 get very angry with those who dispute it and often resort to insults and bad language.

I think their anger must come from fear. Fear that they might be wrong, and that the administration might have made or let it happen: a viewpoint from which the world does indeed become a frightening place.

Examples from recent comments on this blog from a self-styled ‘NWO shill and footsoldier for the 9/11 Lies Movement’:

“You’re a fucking idiot.”

“You fucking Nazi Cunt.”

“…you are stupid and loathsome…”

“I hope you choke to death…”

“FUCK YOU!”

This used to be quite a nice place.

Is it New Year alcohol that’s driving up the temperature?

Usmec v Afpak

Beatha agus Slainte.

I assume you are referring to the readiness of a military commission in Guantanamo Bay to accept a confession made by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed under duress. But I understand that he is to be given a trial in a civilian court in New York, which has yet to take place. So his confession would certainly be challenged there by his defense attorney (if the prosecution were stupid enough to try to use it).

Carlyle Moulton: The episode you refer to was on ‘Voyager’, when a Cardassian… better stop there, that alone marks me enough as a major geek. But the original term for an in-body bomb, unless someone beat him to it, was a ‘Kaze’ in The Gap series by Stephen Donaldson. This human bomb was undetectable, as the components were all biological, and mixed in with the regular organic matter. The subject was a regular attendee at the necessary event (security guard, etc.) who had all the right documentation, but was turned into a kaze, drugged and/or had his family held hostage, and sent to blow up the right people.

The point is, I think, you simply can never stop this sort of thing. And treating everyone like a potential kaze is self-defeating. What sort of society would you have, if precautions had to be taken against _anyone at all_ being a potential bomb – even the security staff themselves?

*

I don’t agree with you that any lives lost in this highly profitable game called “war on terror” should be celebrated. We are talking about ordinary lives, after all. You might well be forgiven for pondering that the 8 CIA staffers in Afghanistan blown up were only receiving in kind from the people _they_ had blown up in directing their manned drones. You could also be forgiven for pondering further, that the suicide-bomber that blew up the CIA 8 was far braver than they. He gave his own life at a minimum, and if his plan failed, he would be tortured brutally by the CIA or their puppets. The CIA, in the meantime, cowered in bunkers, not even risking a manned flight to drop bombs from a great distance, and very often on wedding parties. There were likely to be few wedding parties underway at a CIA HQ in Afghanistan.

But bombing airliners and civilians is totally out of order, whether we do it, or the ‘terrorists’. The terrorist who blew up the Iranian airliner (for which Lockerbie was probably revenge) was awarded a medal by the US Navy, if arsey-soab didn’t already answer the question.

Some lazy, useless bastard wrote:

—start quote

[quoting CM:]

“Yet evidence given by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during hundreds of torture sessions, including over a hundred sessions of waterboarding, is admissible in the US …”

Are you sure you have your facts straight on that, Craig?

—end quote

If the said useless, lazy bastard, who’s name is not worth repeating, had bothered to type “khalid sheikh mohammed waterboarded” into a search engine they would have got (within 0.12 seconds) links such as the following:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6130165.ece

This reveals that KSM was waterboarded 183 times, which puts me to shame, because the other day I said on this board the number was 186. I remembered incorrectly, and stand corrected.

This wild rumour comes from “A 2005 Justice Department memorandum”, and referenced in the New York Times.

—-

Why are people like the guy who questioned Craig (and me yesterday, this “Larry” joke), so useless? Do they think everyone is as lazy and stupid as they are, and questioning an easily proven fact just throws around more doubt?

Probably this is the case, and “Larry” is a shill worth no more that $0.25/post. They do get varying amounts, and a low-quality poster like Larry who are little better than spam-bots, probably rate no more.

I do wonder if there are just key phrases to punch in for a stock response, so an operator needs spend no more than a couple of moments to get a “Larry”-esque reply, containing a dispute-bot answer to almost anything currently in the news.

This is an extraordinarily dangerous precedent. It could – and probably will be – invoked in any and every case where authority wants to protect its misdeeds.

Taken to its logical conclusion, it stops just about every legal action against those employed by state agents by little people.

But then, I haven’t read the decision so…let’s pray that UK courts are not quite so predisposed to anti-democratic defences and the eradication of justice.

But why do you think that evidence obtained by torture is admissible in U.S. federal courts?

Sam, what part of the decision is a dangerous precedent? What is it “anti-democratic” to toss confessions that were improperly introduced as evidence or improperly used to gather more evidence? Do you understand the concept of procedural safeguards?

I’ve linked the opinion below (opens into a PDF)

bit.ly/7q0G2r

Glen.

The Star Trek Enterprise series was set in the time a generation before the original Captain Kirk, Spock Star Trek series.

The episode I refer to was in a series of episodes when Enterprise was traveling through an anomolous area of space (the Delphic Expanse) where time traveling beings from another universe were trying to alter our spacetime to make it habitable for them. Enterprise was seeking out multiple races of Xindi who were building a terror weapon to wipe out earth humans because they had been convinced by the extra universals that if they did not do so Earth humans would wipe them out. (Not an unreasonable fear in my view, if we do get into space of course we will exterminate those no good aliens whose planets we covet).

The convert a biological being into a bomb may also have been used in Voyager.

There I have shown my own geekiness. I have watched Star Trek whenever it has been on but I have definitely not seen every episode of every series. I have not seen the Voyager episode you mentioned.

Question: Why does “angry-soab” write far more to a site he supposedly doesn’t like, than on his own (doubtlessly vastly superior and more popular!) blog? The last first-hand update on stupid-soab’s blog was: “WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 30, 2009″. And that just talks about more successful blogs. in fact, Useless-soab’s blogs consist entirely of reference to more interesting material – almost nothing is original.

Most of the feeble entries on arsey-soab’s blog go without comment. When they do attract comments, about half are from Ugly-soab himself.

Does Miserable-soab troll around other, far more successful and interesting blogs than his own, in a desperate attempt to drum up some sort of popularity? Is that why he/she disrupts and pays more attention to successful blogs than his utterly irrelevant ramblings, which everyone would otherwise quite rightly ignore?

Perhaps we should be told!

Gee, Glenn, where’s your blog? How popular is it?

Should Craig Murray be allowed to comment on a blog that is far more visited than his?

Ruth

If my government misbehaves, and contrary to our proud history of protest here in the UK I march peacefully and go back home so I can go to work next day and pay back my bank loans, does that mean that I am condoning my government’s misdeeds?

The logic of that argument ends in taking direct action, which is currently called terrorism by the colonising classes. The colonisers themselves are like the Star trek Kazes in so far as they keep their violent intentions and capabilities well concealed.

If you admit personal blame for State failure leading to state bancruptcy or state terror, even in a democratic system, you are playing into the hands of a dictator who rules by fear. I am definitely NOT responsible for Mrs Thatcher’s Bank Robbery or Mr Blair’s Harold Shipman-like serial mass- murder of Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia … I trusted the properly appointed person not to exceed the limits of good governance, even though I was powerless to act upon my growing suspicions that my leaders were incompetent criminals.

One is left to conclude that removing a ‘government’ or a leader will not solve the problem and that the Christian Western system is to blame. It would be so nice to be able to say: ‘Gordon Brown, You are the weakest link, stand down. If the system was playing by its own rules, it would be fine. Even if you live under the Taliban and they follow the rules ,it would be fine. The trouble is that in any system there are always individuals who gain trust but who abuse the trust that has been invested in them.

All those people who for whatever reason want to maintain Christian Western democracy MUST insist that the above criminals, viz Thatcher and Blair are brought to justice for their respective crimes. For myself, I put no faith in this system, and it is my concern that the lessons of recent attempts at Islamic governance are learnt. Lesson no. 1 is that you cannot impose Islamic Law on a state governed by secular law, because people do not know where they stand. People will obey whom they fear most, and that is often secular power.

Pious people are so scared of wealthy people of authority that they will condone injustice.

It’s much harder to establish good governance than just to talk about it.

But in my opinion Islam is more likely to find the way to achieve good governance than our own Western system even though that may not be what most people want to hear.

p.s.

One of the bits of poisonous propaganda the UK and its Islamic vassals seeking the peanuts of this world against the treasures of the next life put into the prayer rooms of educational establishments argues;

that you get the leaders you deserve and you have to obey the leaders you deserved;

that you are therefore responsible for the shortcomings of your corrupt rulers, so you may as well work with them and their Western masters and give up trying to think about how to establish Islamic good governance.

When I read this stuff, with its learned Arabic quotations and its accusations that those who disagree with its poison are ‘chawarij’, i.e. they have left Islam… that’s when I taste the bacon fat in the sandwich. There is extremely large slabs of bacon in what is currently presented to Westerners as Islam and the bread is saturated with lard.

The people whoever they are who ‘got’ to the Western system, have also ‘got’ to Islam.

Don’t know who they are, but Star-trek is definitely a good medium for exploring alien invasions.

Beam me up, Scottie.I mean, Craig.

Lol. What a thread I have just read!

Glenn, what are you rambling on about?

So what if I comment on a blog that’s more popular than mine?

Angry soba…

go away.

your trollhood is beyond all the trolls in the land of trollia. your trolling is sad, pathetic, and predictable.

you’re a child who is screaming for attention, and it’s sad.

In the words of Craig Murray: “Some people don’t seem to get the concept of open debate.”

Anonymouse, I continuing to post because I am responding to people who have engaged me, one of whom is you. If you don’t like that then stop talking to me.

Multiple people are justifying killing civilians…… wow……

If civilians are allowed to be targeted by ‘righteous’ fighters, then all civilians will be targeted in all wars. In virtually all conflicts, both sides claim the moral high ground, and therefore both can ‘legitimately’ target civilians.

It’s beyond irony that people can argue the ‘righteousness’ of targeting civilians. By doing so, it is clear the individual is anything but morally pure. The bombing of Dresden was a war crime, as was the fire-bombing of Tokyo, as was the bombing of London. War sucks, and since WWI it has increasingly been targeting civilians, lets not pretend this is acceptable for any reason.

Given the importance of precedent in US law, I can imagine this case becoming much cited – after all the threat of job loss applies in many offences, down to drunk driving. Some years ago there was a very nasty parallel in English law, when a guardsman escaped conviction for a brutal rape on the grounds that his career might be damaged.

But like Craig, I know that these precedents are only rather selectively applied. I know of know case in Scotland which has had fingerprint evidence ruled inadmissible, as it logically should be following the McKie case.

Back on topic.

The lack of justice for the Iraqi victims is disgusting, and can leave the Iraqi’s with no doubt how little the US values their lives. However I think in the long run such cases will actually hurt the mercenary industry far more than it helps.

There seems to be a lot of discomfort within the US about the role of mercenaries in the ‘war on terror’. I’m surprised how often I see direct or indirect criticism of mercenaries in the US mainstream media, be it the news or in (more?) fictional TV shows. I think this is for three reasons. The first one being that despite a concerted effort to ‘re-brand’ them as contractors, people know a merc when they see one, and people do not think highly of killers to hire. The second reason is that mercenaries provide a good scapegoat for those that wish to offer ‘safe’ criticism of US policy. It’s politically much easier to criticise Blackwater (Xe if you prefer, but I think both names are cartoonishly evil) than it is to criticise the US military. The final reason being is that I think there is a large element of the US military establishment that is deeply unhappy with the use of mercenaries.

With such blatant cases as the one that Craig blogged about, it is increasingly apparent how little control/over sight there is of the mercenary industry. I think it’s only a matter of time before the merc industry greatly shrinks as more and more people express their disgust towards it and the political leaders who support the industry. I hope so anyway.

Larry,

The Blackwater case did not collapse because there was no evidence against them other than the evidence that had been obtained “under duress”. It collapsed because SOME of the evidence against them had been obtained “inder duress”, and that was deemed sufficient violation of rights to end the case.

We may, it is true, yet see a similar ruling applied and KSM released when he comes before a Federal court. And I will eat my hat.

I would reiterate that Larry, angrysoba etc are very welcome – and I mean welcome, not just tolerated – to comment here.

Craig.

Happy new year and I appreciate your great blog.

Free speech is all well and good and seems to be alive on the internet.

Unfortunately when it descends into name silly and abusive calling often from people with little better to do in their pathetic lives, then maybe they should have the right to post removed. Certainly using words in any blog which you would not say to someone face to face is a form of cowardace. It should should be deleted and the user suspended for the benefit of the many who would prefer a reasoned debate and not a fist fight.

“I think there is a large element of the US military establishment that is deeply unhappy with the use of mercenaries.”–CheebaCow

It’s my understanding that Obama’s “surge” in Afghanistan includes about 56,000 ‘contractors’. It’s also my understanding that it’s against US law for the US to use mercenaries in the course of a war. Perhaps someone could clarify this second point — I thought I read it from Juan Cole, but now I can’t remember the source.

“I would reiterate that Larry, angrysoba etc are very welcome” –Craig

It’s your blog, of course, Craig. I don’t believe Larry has any interest in commenting here. Only in throwing out provocative questions and remarks, with the *sole* intention of being disruptive. Just my two cents. But I’ll follow your lead.

I also think that “Larry” (or a buddy) is using about 3-6 names, including those of other posters (e.g. Jaded) — but that’s par for the course given where she’s coming from, IMHO.

dreoilin: I believe you are right about the increase in mercenaries under Obama. Last I heard was that more than 1 mercenary had replaced every official US military person that has been withdrawn from Iraq since Obama was elected. However I don’t that the mercenary issue is actually something that Obama wants to encourage as such, rather he must use mercenaries to achieve his goals. Obama probably feels he can’t seriously reduce the US presence in Iraq but at the same time he wants to be seen as at least starting the withdrawal. For all his faults, I genuinely believe that Obama does not want to wage war in the way that Bush did, and does not intend to start another major war. If this is the case then I think mercenaries will eventually be phased out. If however another large war is initiated then even more mercenaries will undoubtedly be needed. And the world will be a lot closer to completely going down the shitter.

Personally I’m more concerned with the ever increasing use of remote controlled war machines. One of the evils of air power is just how removed the pilots are from the carnage they are committing. Using a remote controlled device to bomb villages that is just like playing a video game really make me shudder about where humanity is going. But I also feel compelled to say that I love playing violent video games =P

“However I don’t *think* that the mercenary issue is actually something that Obama wants to encourage as such”

Correction to the above.

Cheebacow.

The supposed ban on targeting civilians is

(a) Silly.

(b) Hypocritical.

War is War and it makes no sense to wage it at all unless one wages it totally. This prohibition is never observed by the Nation at war with the more powerful military. Only the weak side is criticised. The powerful side can get away with killing as many civilians as they like by claiming that it is just inevitable collateral damage, even if they do deliberately target civilians as civilians they can say we thought there was a military target there. In any war strategy and tactics require that you try to strike where the enemies defenses are weakest and civilians are always less well defended than armed soldiers with tanks.

This rule deprives those who are under enemy occupation from resisting by defining everything they do as terrorism because they target civilians.

Carlyle:

So Israel should simply completely flatten the West Bank and Gaza according to your logic. No Palestinians left, problem solved. The US would never let Israel be ‘pushed into the sea’, so why don’t they just do it?

I share your frustration with the unevenness of how laws are applied. But this just means we should fight for more justice not less. If there was no sense of decency in the world, and might justified anything, the poor of the world would be far worse off.

CheebaCow

I gazed into the windows of Obama’s eyes and saw a peace-loving man who did not want to start any wars and definitely deserved the Nobel Peace Prize.

Then I woke up and realised it was all a beautiful dream. Sigh.

CheebaCow

I read the disgust in the public’s mind about hired killers and the evasion of responsibility by the state who hires them. I thought about the penalty for those who hire killers for personal crimes. Then I thought,this disgusting thing is going to go away from the force of public opinion. Like the war on Iraq.

If it stinks, UK US IS dogs will be rolling in it. I try to discipline my dog, but, i don’t know, it must have had a deprived childhood or something. Sigh.

anno:

These kinds of comments don’t really serve any purpose. You read things into what I write that I don’t actually say or mean.

No where in my post did I say I think Obama is a moral or peace loving person. I only said that he didn’t want to wage wars in the same way Bush did.

I think it is much more likely that Obama is similar to Bush and the general US political class that want to maintain US hegemony across the globe. However Obama is sophisticated enough that he realises that such blunt rhetoric and actions that Bush was famous for is not actually an effective way of achieving US goals. I still think its a little early to judge Obama, after all Bush and Co really did leave a massive mess after themselves, but I think Obama will be a relatively typical centre right US politician that is charismatic and probably has some vague liberal ideals such as less nukes which he will most likely scrap when they become inconvenient. Probably much like Clinton.

Obama sure ain’t a liberal like many hoped, but he’s probably a little more palatable than Bush. When such high stakes are at risk, sometimes style does actually account for a little.

Thank you for pointing this out again Cheebacow, thing is the priorities of remembering/celebrating war still comes before that of war crimes.

“The bombing of Dresden was a war crime, as was the fire-bombing of Tokyo, as was the bombing of London. War sucks, and since WWI it has increasingly been targeting civilians, lets not pretend this is acceptable for any reason.”

Then there are the war crimes nobody will ever cry about, i.e. those committed in vengance, for example, those 400.000 german soldiers that died after being shoved into holes, dug in fields in Flanders and northern France, left to die on starvation rations by allied soldiers, imho,the psychological glue of that ‘special realitionship’, a common criminality.

They were emaciated and battle worn, hungry, coming back form the eastern fronts, after years of fighting, obeying the orders of a psychopath Hitler, they were at their wits end and died like flies, nobody ever cried for them, they were the evil nazis after all.

Records of this particular mass murder, it does not qualify as war crime, because the war was over, have been destroyed, only the geneva red cross archive is holding on to this ‘secret’and is steadfastly refusing to let anybody research the subject, many have tried.

Today ordering mass murder in Iraq will not be taken out on soldiers, indeed the lessons learned from the nazi’s, reagrds torture and deprivation, have been takern up hook line and sinker, refined and developed.

The next few month will give us a chance to press our ‘predictive representatives’, vying for our votes on these issues, watch them wriggle.

There is no justice in the war on terror, because all sides are using terror to control and support their side of the argument. Civilans, always the largest casulaties in any war, are kept in fear and ignorance, tribal confusions, entertained with white wash inquiries such as Chilcott, we are now encouraged to vote for the same shower again.

I have never commented or engaged with angrysobas comments much, but running a blog and getting no responses to it must get boring after a while, hence his appearnces on other more assertive and relevant blogs, imho., just as Carlyle Moultons deliberate contributions, I regard them both as a compliment to Craigs openess and accessability here.

Both have made more contributions here in two days than I have posted since I discovered this blog, that in itself speaks volumnes.

So, how do we change things? Ruth has pointed to the obvious, engaging in active politics must be a way forward, despite the unfair voting system.

That said, only a positive pro European party should really be our target, our history and future lies within Europe.

I’m slightly worried that our ‘mongers’ will walk/talk us into another war, further obfusecating and confusing the most important issues facing us now, we must challenge Cameron/ Brown on Iran and Israel. The conservative party is governed by the conservative friends of Israel and friends of Israel such as Mr. Gode MP, already are dominating our news and cultural BBC programmes, power has been shifting since the autumn and the BBC has followed the Murdoch press in sucking up to this, another manipulated lot.

enjoy the weekend.

Following on a little from dreoilin’s comments, I also never engage trolls (trolling is like porn – difficult to define, but you know it when you see it). As I have mentioned in a previous post there are technologies to reduce the nuisance, and which stop short of the outright blocking that Craig doesn’t want.

As well as posting under a variety of aliases, well-organised trollers will often conduct both sides of an argument, so that a wholly spurious and irrelevant debate (usually characterised by lots of use of words like ‘idiot’ and ‘moron’) can thrive like a weed, choking all other contributions. I suspect that the wildest vituperation is between trollers on the same team. The apparent stupidity of the trollers’ contributions should not lead one to believe that a fool is behind them. I have seen many a comment thread wasted by persistent and highly focussed inanity, so perhaps it was carefully calibrated to achieve its end – silence.

Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity, I suppose, but it is still worth watching out for malice. Or perhaps Larry and angrysoba just belong in General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord’s last and most dangerous category of officer:

“I divide my officers into four classes; the clever, the lazy, the industrious, and the stupid. Each officer possesses at least two of these qualities. Those who are clever and industrious are fitted for the highest staff appointments. Use can be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy however is for the very highest command; he has the temperament and nerves to deal with all situations. But whoever is stupid and industrious is a menace and must be removed immediately!”

“War is War and it makes no sense to wage it at all unless one wages it totally. This prohibition is never observed by the Nation at war with the more powerful military. Only the weak side is criticised. The powerful side can get away with killing as many civilians as they like by claiming that it is just inevitable collateral damage, even if they do deliberately target civilians as civilians they can say we thought there was a military target there. In any war strategy and tactics require that you try to strike where the enemies defenses are weakest and civilians are always less well defended than armed soldiers with tanks. ”

That’s just wonderful!

First of all, what “war” are we talking about? You’re not one of those that have swallowed the whole “war on terror” propaganda whole are you? If you’re suggesting as you have done, that September 11th and the Underwear Bombers actions were legitimate acts of war then you have basically ruled that all killings of civilians and all targettings of civilians are legitimate.

So, when George Bush senior said he would never apologize for the shooting down of a civilian Iranian airliner then you, presumably, are fine with it. Hey! That’s war! Right?

You’ve also justified the killings of Iraqi and Afghan civilians on the basis that, Hey! That’s war!

People. I am not happy to hear bastards from Blackwater to get away from justice. However, considering that american judicial system is based upon case law, I am happy for those who have been tortured and waiting trials for whatever charges. Now, their lawyers can refer to the above and build their case arguing that torture is more serious duress that loosing a job.

In 2009 more 2040 civilians died in Afghanistan. 310 american soldiers and 106 british ones. Afghan civilians died as a result of miolitary action from both sides.

An interesting article by Jeremy Scahill here:

http://rebelreports.com/post/310249178/fed-judge-gives-blackwater-huge-new-years-gift

He writes, Judge Ricardo Urbina, “In a memo defending his opinion… cited a similar rationale used in the dismissal of charges against Iran-Contra figure Oliver North?”namely that the government violated the rights of the Blackwater men by using statements they made to investigators in the immediate aftermath of the shooting to build a case against the guards, which Urbina said qualified for “derivative use immunity.” Urbina wrote that he agreed that “the government violated [the Blackwater guards'] constitutional rights by utilizing statements they made to Department of State investigators, which were compelled under a threat of job loss.” He added that the “government is prohibited from using such compelled statements or any evidence obtained as a result of those statements” to bring indictments.”

Scahill has been reporting on Erik Prince and his Blackwater mercenaries for some time.

P.S.

Happy New Year Craig.

Andy.

This is the opinion of one federal district court. Its value as precedent applies to that one federal district court.

“people want to kill you because as a nation you behave in a murderous and arrogant way”

Ah, the usual pathological and racist and deranged USA-hatred of the pathetic group laughingly known as the ‘British intelligentsia’, in truth a parochial and ignorant group of self-appointed gurus who would be lost for purpose if it weren’t for their hatred of the USA and Israel.

“When the US downed an Iranian civilian airliner during the Iran-Iraq war it was a disgusting war crime.”

More ignorant drivel from angrysoba.

It can only be a crime if it was deliberate. It wasn’t. It was human error.

‘I also think that “Larry” (or a buddy) is using about 3-6 names, including those of other posters (e.g. Jaded) — but that’s par for the course given where she’s coming from, IMHO.’

I’m beginning to think you are one of them!!!

In my ***humble opinion***, Craig doesn’t seem to appreciate the difference between allowing free speech with people you disagree with and booting off filth that are deliberately attempting to subvert his blog. I have only ever been perfectly polite to the decent and ‘genuine’ folk I meet in life. I know how to talk to the weasels. It’s the only language they understand! What’s more, after doing some good detective work, I actually think they are BNP in disguise.

“I’m beginning to think you are one of them!!! ”

Jaysus … no you don’t.

“I actually think they are BNP in disguise.”

There are ways and means. I’ll do a little detective work myself.

I am willing to hire out my deerstalker if the price is right.

Blackwater has several subsidiary companies, Greystone is one, established here in the Philippines where I am at present. You may be interested in links: http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view/20090830-222663/Blackwater-training-mercenaries-in-Subic

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Greystone%2C_Ltd.#Greystone.27s_aborted_plan_to_train_mercenaries_in_the_Philippines

Private security and mercenary arms is big business.

“What’s more, after doing some good detective work, I actually think they are BNP in disguise.”

What gave me away? I absolutely have to know!

Lamby:

‘”What’s more, after doing some good detective work, I actually think they are BNP in disguise.”

What gave me away? I absolutely have to know!’

Never you mind, that’s for me to know and you to torture yourself over. That’s the nasty treatment you get from Nazis like me. BNP get no special treatment. Mu ha ha ha ha.

“That’s the nasty treatment you get from Nazis like me”

Finally the truth from this Jew-hating scum.

“More ignorant drivel from angrysoba.

It can only be a crime if it was deliberate.”

GB: I’m not sure if this is true. It sounds to me like reckless negligence. The plane was a scheduled flight and the crew of the Vincennes had a duty to know of such flights.

If you want to convince me otherwise I will be open to knowing more.

Gordonbennet wrote:

More ignorant drivel from angrysoba.

It can only be a crime if it was deliberate. It wasn’t. It was human error.

Gordon, to shoot down an aircraft military or civilian takes more than one person, in an anti aircraft missile base, or from a navy frigatte.

Without certainty and deliberation this incident would not have taken place.

Even during the highest alert status, not one single operator should have been able to commit mistakes without the deliberations of his officers, including the captain.

First of all this aircraft would have been tracked as it left the airspace over Aby Dhabi, IFF, Identification Friend Foe would have been used and a negative response should have reulted in a check with Abu Dhabis/Saudi airspace controllers.

The altitude of the plane should have been an indication of it being a passenger aircraft, as they fly between 20-30.000feet, a military aircraft would have know of navy patrols and would have diverted instantly as the frigattes radar locked on to it as a target.

The civilian airliner plowed on in its pre allocated course and was shoot down in a deliberate action.

As there was a war situation pre-determined airspace for commerical airliners would have been in place and actively monitored by more than one air control centre.

To fire a missile does not just take a single sailor, they have to be acknowledged, checked and verified by at least two officers agreeing with each other.

In this case there was no indication of a threat or of an attack, as the US well knew that Iranian military aircraft would have come from the other way not from the Saudi penisula.

Shooting down any airliner, regardless of natinality, should be investigated, those responsible for shooting at it should have been punished or reprimanded big time, this was a warcrime and always will be, that it was not investigated, and instead called a ‘mistake’ by the US, only amplifies the ill feeling of relatives, who btw. were not all Iranian.

How do I know? well once upon a time I was partial to cosmic top secret documents that specify NATO’s responses in such, and other, situations. Please refrain from saying that it was a mistake, you are merely supporting a cover up with such statement.

I maintain that an investigation into this war crime entails the key to a resumption of real diplomatic discourse.

I am sure that should the US open up this case to international investigation, that Iran will cooperate fully with it, reconcilliation could follow and a different climate, maybe recompense established.

ingo — the history of the german POW’s is long overdue.

Somewhere I have a book on those held in the US –surprising stuff there — the anti- Nazis were persecuted by the Nazis , wth the support of the authorities .

As usual those higher up were either ignorant ( and really stupid ) or completely indifferent and without scruple .

T

Gordon Bennet:

‘”That’s the nasty treatment you get from Nazis like me”

Finally the truth from this Jew-hating scum.’

Gords, all I have done is hold up a metaphorical mirror for you to see yourself. What’s the reflection like BNP man? You like what you see Gords?

Right, everyone in doubt think about this. Craig makes questioning statements about the ‘War On Terror’ and his blog is isntantly attacked 24/7 by a gang of shills. And I mean 24/7! What a coincidence! A 2 year old could figure it all out. They use the tactics of ‘divide and conquer’ and ‘maximum disruption’. However, many of us have seen it and they have LOST. It’s not too hard when they are pretty thick though, so we shouldn’t take too much kudos from this. Read this and weep guys. And they are secretly BNP too, especially that eddie misfit. Ha ha ha.

This is an excellent video and everyone needs to watch it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAaPjqdbgQ

This man told the truth years ago and did this interview soon before he knew he was going to die from cancer.

RIP Aaron Russo.

Oh yes, and Russo is another one of my heroes who was a Jew. Some of my heroes are Jacques Derrida, Jew, who I was honoured to meet before he died; Emmanuel Levinas, Jew, who had relatives that died in the Nazi camps; and Russo, as mentioned, who refused to shut up about the ‘very small sick element’ that wants to run everything through central banks.

“Some of my heroes are Jacques Derrida”

How could some of your heroes be one postmodernist waste of space?

When I told my philosophy teacher that Jacques Derrida had died he said, “Good fuckin’ riddance! How’s he gonna talk himself out of that one? What did he die of? Deconstruction?”

I suppose all these heroes were whacked off by the New World Order, right?

Or wait a second… YOU met Derrida just before he died…

I demand a full investigation into this.

“Craig makes questioning statements about the ‘War On Terror’ and his blog is isntantly attacked 24/7 by a gang of shills. And I mean 24/7! What a coincidence! A 2 year old could figure it all out. They use the tactics of ‘divide and conquer’ and ‘maximum disruption’. ”

Nazi filth has a theory!

“However, many of us have seen it and they have LOST. ”

Nazi filth declares victory!

“Oh yes, and Russo is another one of my heroes who was a Jew.”

Nazi filth plays the “some-of-my-best-friends-are-Jews” card!

Keep trying Mr. 24/7 BNP man. I have utterly and completely exposed you and all your buddies. Nice try twat, well no, it was pretty weak actually. It will be plain to see for all that read this blog. You, the Nazi, are the only LOSER. ;-0

Don’t fret though my son. It’s all ok…

You can keep rambling into incoherence making ever more desperate attempts to distance yourself from the glaring anti-semitism you’ve displayed on this forum all you want but your Holocaust denial is plain to see with your “just asking questions” approach on another thread and your placing the word Holocaust in inverted commas and your “just mentioning” approach to airport security firms employing Israelis and even your admission that you are a Nazi and an anti-semite.

Yes, you keep gazing into that metaphorical mirror my little BNP friend. All has been revealed to the world and you are now completely exposed like the Nazi you are. I hope you like the bright sunlight. My work is done on this thread and all goals have been fully accomplished. I’ll leave you to wallow in your pit of defeat. I’m sure everyone will be guffawing at any further futile posts you make that make you look even more dumb, if that’s at all possible. Adios Mr. 24/7 Shill. Don’t fret though. It’s all ok my son… ;-0

angry soba,

do you think he’ll bugger off now all his “goals have been fully accomplished?”

That would be nice.

Which part of Japan are you based in?

“do you think he’ll bugger off now all his “goals have been fully accomplished?”

That would be nice.”

Maybe he’ll top himself. That would be nicer.

“Which part of Japan are you based in? ”

I live in Osaka.

you know now its getting very complecated and its impossible to say for sure who is agressor and who is victim here… i am citizen of israel and i love my country and sure i support it. but when i realise that my country ‘confiscated’ land of palestinian people- i am lost. i am tired of all types of war. i want peace! most of israeli people will support me in this…

Good on you ilona.

Beware of that site you linked to its not really uncensored -far from it.

I wish i could recommend a better one for you… perhaps: http://jewishpeacenews.blogspot.com/

peace be with you