If the pirates are centrally controlled, then that would be the obvious ‘target’ to thwart the piracy.

Killing the active pirates will guarantee their martyrdom; not so much as a fantasy Robin Hood, but real a Stenka Razin.

Poor people need to act to survive; whereas the politicos who fund and manipulate the criminal activities, do not need to; hence they are naturally and strategically legitimate targets.

Interestingly with regard to the piratee I read a while that their operations were controlled from London.

I suspect the possibility of covert activities by the intelligence services; firstly and primarily to disrupt the area the area and secondly to bring revenue.

Interestingly with regard to the pirates I read a while that their operations were controlled from London.

I suspect the possibility of covert activities by the intelligence services; firstly and primarily to disrupt the area the area and secondly to bring revenue.

“Somali pirates in disrupting the shipping lanes are contributing to the poverty in Yemen.” – Come off it Craig. That’s a vanishingly small factor in Yemens economic woes.

In the current global usury/debt swelling system and in consideration of its history, expressions suggesting a nation can some how engage in this system to trade its way out of trouble is very disappointing, unless you have some novel way that can avoid this ultimately disasterous path only ever viewed in the short term?

In Norwich while campaigning, you met a very good man (an English revert to Islam) called Abdassamad Clark. Read this book (partly written by him). “Banking: The Root Cause of the Injustices of Our Time”

http://www.diwanpress.com/banking.html

It’s only about £5.50, but a real gem.

I think we need to deal with the real pirates in this world more urgently than these Somali ones.

The UK and US have just closed their embassies in Yemen. Is this a prelude to fully disclosing the bombing by the US going on there?

‘They are well-organised criminal gangs, centrally controlled and supplied and operating with clear tactics and their own terms of engagement, who receive training and logistic support from white mercenaries based in South Africa. This is information I have gathered in Africa, directly from those genuinely involved in the actual local fisheries industry, whose livelihood is being ruined by the pirates.’

This could be describing the Israeli navy firstly and then the Gazan fishermen who are shot at and attacked daily by Israeli gunships.

See http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/04/piracy-off-the-promised-land-the-ramming-of-the-dignity-with-clear-lethal-intent/

The Viva Palestina convoy of hundreds of vehicles from the UK and the 1400 Free Gaza international marchers have been denied entry to Gaza by Egypt.They had planned to enter Gaza on the anniversary of Cast Lead. The convoy has had to drive 500 miles back to Lattakia and is now travelling by ship to Al Arish. The Israeli Navy were making threatening noises about ‘military manoeuvres’ and warned the boat to stay clear although it is travelling in international waters as was the Dignity in December 2008 when it was thrice rammed. The marchers are still in Cairo and entry at Rafah is still being denied. The siege of Gaza is tighter than ever now that a US made 25m deep underground steel wall is being put in at Rafah to stop the tunnelling. Shame on Israel, Egypt, the US and Brown and Miliband.

Thanks for the update on the peace march and the viva palestina ship awaiting entry to Al Arish, mary, how many more Egyptian procrastinations can the UK ambasador take before he takes decisive action one wonders.

dreoilin wrote:

“The UK and US have just closed their embassies in Yemen. Is this a prelude to fully disclosing the bombing by the US going on there?”

During the last two days a mantra of ‘not letting Yemen become a lfailing state’ has been mentioned over and over again in our and other news services.

This action points to impending military action and I suspect that US/UK/Saudi and maybe even French forces might once again attack a soverign country without declaring war.

According to US sources, some 300 Alquaeda activists are gathered in training camps and I suspect some innocent civilians to get killed via drones.

looking at the war on terrorism, I am somewhat surprised that the initiator countries have yet not managed to infiltrate this lucid terror organisations, something that was seen as absolutely necesssarry during the cold war.

Thje self perpetuating moves on our behalf undermines our arguments at all times and cannot be sen as an appropriate tool anymore.

The general public will increasingly question our resolve there and hopefully challenge both major parties during the general election campaign.

If Cameron’s conservative friends of Israel and noLabour do not take our questions seriously and answer evasively, do not vote for them and make sure you tell them so.

“This could be describing the Israeli navy firstly and then the Gazan fishermen who are shot at and attacked daily by Israeli gunships”

Oh crikey, yet another brainless antisemite.

Amazingly, for once I find myself agreeing with Murray. Those murderous criminals should be shot on sight.

“English revert to Islam”

This encapsulated the obscenity that is Islam.

“In the current global usury/debt swelling system”

Here we go again…

Gordon Bennett

Actually what strikes me most strongly is the very high degree of commonality between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions. Most of the prophets and stories are the same, and so are most of the undelying ethical precepts.

All three religions are subject to abuse by various power structures set up to administer them, and by those who claim adherence to them and wish to use religiosity to justify violent and greedy behaviour.

There are good and there are bad people who adhere to all three religons. Those who resort to vulgar abuse of any of the monotheistic religons and its adherents do no service to humanity.

“…And so, what of Israeli hopes of eternal support from Washington? I still don’t believe in a one-state solution ?” which the Protestant minority will one day have to accept in Ireland, if they have not, subconsciously, already done so ?” but colonisation leads only to the graveyard. Walls don’t work. Nor “superior” religions. Nor ethnic cleansing. History, which should be studied as eternally as false hopes, is a great punisher.”

Robert Fisk

‘Walls never work: in the Middle East or in Ireland’

http://tinyurl.com/ylmxk7j

“There are good and there are bad people who adhere to all three religons”

–Craig

There are indeed. But don’t open your mouth to criticise Israel’s behaviour here, or one red-hot-angry fire-and-brimstone-breathing guy here will call you, “yet another brainless antisemite”.

‘They are well-organised criminal gangs, centrally controlled and supplied and operating with clear tactics and their own terms of engagement, who receive training and logistic support from white mercenaries based in South Africa.’

Who pays the white mercenaries?

“Those who resort to vulgar abuse of any of the monotheistic religons and its adherents do no service to humanity.”

Drivel. Religion has caused more misery to the human species than all the other ideologies combined.

In this case, of course, I was referring to the obscene belief that everyone is inherently a Muslim, and that conversion to Islam is a reversion to the true state.

Dreolin, you resort to the usual antisemitic gambit, which all but the dumbest can see through.

The idiot above was not ‘criticising Israel’ but posting the usual mendacious, context-less and selective demonisation.

But then, what can you expect from anyone who quotes the utterly vile Jew-hater Fisk with admiration?

“we ought to be killing more people off the coast of Somalia”

Is that a serious remark, Craig? If so, with great regret, I shall have to write off your blog, and kiss you goodbye. That would be a pity. Especially as you make this call in defence of trade. Trade?

I just lurve that Gordon Bennet – ah got all his albums, like that smash hit, ‘Dont Cry For Me, Tel Aviv’, or his collection of Xmas toe-tappers ‘Rockin Around The White Phosphorus Shell’, containing that timeless, nay classic showstopping tune, ‘Have Yourself A Merry Little Gaza Siege’. Ah, memories!

“Dreolin, you resort to the usual antisemitic gambit, which all but the dumbest can see through”

–Gordon Bennet

Which means what, exactly?

I’m sick to death of watching Israelis use that old worn-out cliche anytime Israel is criticised – even for blatant war crimes. I’ve been through this a dozen times at least, with the ‘online army’. Most of whom, by the way, had a lot more manners than you.

“The idiot above was not ‘criticising Israel’ but posting the usual mendacious, context-less and selective demonisation”

–Gordon Bennet

I believe it went like this:

“This could be describing the Israeli navy firstly and then the Gazan fishermen who are shot at and attacked daily by Israeli gunships”

– mary

which you quoted, and to which you replied:

“Oh crikey, yet another brainless antisemite”

–Gordon Bennet

It’s your response to anything and everything, while you produce little in the way of facts or argument to back up the mud you sling around.

“what can you expect from anyone who quotes the utterly vile Jew-hater Fisk with admiration?”

See what I mean?

LOL @ mike cobley

LOL @ mike cobley

LOL @ mike cobley

I wonder if Gordon thinks Richard Goldstone is an anti-semite. Or perhaps Norman Finkelstein, or Max Blumenthal, or Noam Chomsky.

It’s all very simple:

Judaism is a tribal monotheism.

Christianity is a universal monotheism.

Islam is a universal monotheism with the images and music removed. Bit like protestantism really.

Oil is a universal necessity…

@amk

!I wonder if Gordon thinks Richard Goldstone is an anti-semite. Or perhaps Norman Finkelstein, or Max Blumenthal, or Noam Chomsky.”

No. They’re self-hating Jews.

If you don’t agree with rabid right wing Israeli fascists, there’s always a label for you.

Fascists like the Israelis are hot on the old propaganda shit, and exceptionally good at subverting our interests to theirs.

I don’t expect the Chinese will be so concerned about concepts such as anti-semitism. I wonder how they’ll play that one.

Let’s just hope the Israeli right wing scum don’t coerce us into WWIII

“I’m sick to death of watching Israelis use that old worn-out cliche anytime Israel is criticised”

No, mate – it’s antisemites like you who think that this stupid excuse gives you a free Get Out of Jail card. You use all the old antisemitic tropes, and then when called on them you screech: “I was only criticizing Israel! I was only criticising Israel!”. This is total bollocks. Your mate with her stupid deflection from Somali pirates – which is the topic of her thread – to the Israeli navy, which has bugger all to do with Somali pirates, is one of those deranged people who will always focus on Israel. Someone cheats the NHS? “Ah, but the Israelis do worse!”. Iran executes gays? “Ah, but Israel commits genocide against the Palestinians!”.

Sorry, you and her will no longer be allowed to get away with this.

—-

Of course Finkelstein and Chomsky are antisemites. The only defence they have is that they are clearly insane.

—-

Mike Cobley whines about the siege of Gaza. I bet he thinks that Israeli children shelled for years and years at Sderot should have simply put up with it. After all, they are only Jews, and the proper role of Jews is to be murdered – and say Thank You.

- – - -

Fisk has produced reams and reams of lies about Israel. If you have read his bilious Jew-hatred and don’t realise this, you are an idiot.

Like Winston, who doesn’t realise that the Jews are a nation.

Just saw that the ludicrously named Winston Smith, who is a top candidate for Secretary of State for the Ministry of Truth, posted yet another of his antisemitic screeds.

It’s time you got it, idiot: Israel will defend herself against genocidal neighbours. You don’t like it? Go fuck yourself. This isn’t 1942 any longer.

“No, mate – it’s antisemites like you who think that this stupid excuse gives you a free Get Out of Jail card …etc etc”–Gordon

You poor sod, I’m beginning to feel sorry for you. You haven’t a flaming clue – or a grain of evidence that I’m ‘antisemitic’.

“Sorry, you and her will no longer be allowed to get away with this.”

Don’t be so daft.

If you are as evil as the Israeli right you’re gonna get a lot of criticism.

They knew that when they reinvented the term “antisemitism” to attack any that criticise them.

It’s pretty evil stuff when even the Jews who criticise these evil fuckwits are branded anti-semite. But that’s the way evil works. Pure evil liars is all they are, and it’s beoming clearer day by day.

If the Jews are a nation how come only some of them are allowed a view, and any of them that disagree with that view are anti-semite?

“Israel will defend herself against genocidal neighbours. You don’t like it? Go fuck yourself.”

Palestinians will also defend themselves against genocidal neighbours.

You talk of “context” but do not appear to realise that 80% of Gazans are descended from those “ethnically cleansed” from what is today Israel in 1948. Sderot once an Arab town before the Arabs were forced out. The Gazans have been living in an Israeli created ghetto for decades.

Two wrongs do not make a right: indiscriminate attacks of Palestinians on Israelis or of Israelis on Palestinians are unjustifiable.

“realise that the Jews are a nation.”

The primary lesson from WW2 and the Holocaust, which Zionists* have failed to learn: ethno-nationalism is a really bad idea.

*Zionism: the ideology that there should be a Jewish state in the Holy Land

Zionist: a proponent of Zionism.

“even the Jews who criticise these evil fuckwits are branded anti-semite”

Finkelstein’s mother survived a Nazi death camp. Calling him an anti-semite is truly perverse.

His mother learnt the correct lesson from the experience though: tribalism, including ethno-nationalism, is bad. Norman learnt that from her.

Amk you must be wrong, because anyone who disagrees with Gordon Bennet is an utter vile stupid driveling short plank idiot Jew-hating picnic moron, apparently.

“Fisk has produced reams and reams of lies about Israel.”

Gordon, one eye-opening thing about Fisk that no one has seemed to call him on is his flirtation with 911 truthy truth. Really tells you all you need to know about him.

Same thing with John Pilger.

(I might be wrong – someone might have called him on it).

Damn, and I think ‘Gordon Bennet’ is someone desperately trying to sound oh so English, while fooling nobody at all. Does that mean I’m an anti-semite for pointing that out? And is my Jewish wife a self-hating Jew for having a husband that thinks such things?

- Judaism is a tribal monotheism.

- Christianity is a universal monotheism.

- Islam is a universal monotheism with the images and music removed. Bit like protestantism really.

I quite like that

You know the expression: “Given enough rope…”?, Well I think in light of Gordon Bennet, the genocide apologist, we should petition for a change “Even with no rope…”.

Ah Crimeless Israyhell

Land of the just

admirable

Godly people

Oh Israyhell

Viva ISrayhell

Sorry Craig, I can’t agree.

Fair enough to suggest killing pirates because free passage on the seas has to be guaranteed. How does this apply to free passage of environmental and economic terrorists encroaching on the coastline of an impoverished and powerless people? This is mass murder. This is not bullshit.

I have worked in Somalia, and work regularly with the powerless and impoverished in many countries. States should take responsibilities for their own nationals far beyond guaranteeing their free passage. Considering the outright murder that the environmental terrorism of dumpers and over-fishers represents to those defenseless populations, what they deserve is not piracy, but outright confiscation and near-permanent imprisonment of the crews.

If Somalia had a government they would not dare to devastate their waters. Somalia would have a government, were it not for western intervention to raise warlords to battle against the first semblance of a fair government they had had in about 22 years. This too is not bullshit.

Whilst I do not agree with shooting pirates out of the water, for globalised trade ueber alles, I feel that we have missed a trick or two here in London and elsewhere. If these pirates get logistical support from mercenaries, then there is another lever somewhere that is not being used, why not has to be the question?

There are many punitive measures that could be applied to those who steer this shanghaing of ships, but they are rejected, cause one never negotiates with terrorists and pirates, according to the FCO, unless of course its in our back yard and they are blowing up our ministers.

Pirates that are captured should be held and used as bargaining chips for hostages, such as the Chandlers, or tarded against the goods they seized.

I also believe that the communications between the pirates and their backers/handlers are interceptable, why have we not been able/unwilling to hit their soft underbelly here in London?

As for Gordon bennet and his undying love for zionists, again, ueber alles in der Welt, please try reading some of prof. Avi shlaims work, if thats not enough, read the personal diary of the ex PM of Israel, Moshe Sharett, I presume you can read hebrew. Because you have got your head seriously in a muddle.

Never, since the good will of the world population/ UN created a history of Israel, has any Government made serious attempts to foster a peacefull relationship with its neighbours on equal terms, live with it or change it to the better.

“we ought to be killing more people off the coast of Somalia”

“Fair enough to suggest killing pirates because free passage on the seas has to be guaranteed.”

I can’t believe this!

Rhisiart,

I a not a pacifist. People under armed attack have the right to defend themselves. It is OK to fight those who repeatedly use armed force against defenceless civilians.

Steve,

There is an urgent need for resources for all African countries to protect their waters from over-fishing, particularly by illegal Korean and Japanese plunderers. Even non-failed African states don’t have the resources to do it. I think I tackle the issue in the Catholic Orangemen. But that does not justify armed attacks on civilian sailors. The vast majority, and quite possibly all, of those taken hostage have nothing to do with illegal dumping or illegal fishing. Many were carrying aid shipments.

Trade is a good thing. You have to be slightly mad to believe trade is not a good thing. It – in terms of what we would now call international trade – has been essential to human development for at least 5,000 years.

“The ‘benefit’ of Somalia’s pirates”

Channel 4

” …Fisherman in Kenya have reported bumper catches of shark and shellfish because commercial fishing boats from China and Japan have been scared away.

“Now the fishermen are able to catch up to £200 worth of fish per day in an area where the average daily earnings are less than £5.

“The massive factory trawlers which used to drain their fish stocks have been scared away and that means there is a huge bounty for local fishermen, as well as helping to restore the health of the marine eco-system.”

http://tinyurl.com/yzkmu72

Worth throwing into the mix perhaps …

“It is OK to fight those who repeatedly use armed force against defenceless civilians.”

Yes, Craig, but I’m not aware that these pirates have killed any of the people they’ve taken and held? I may be wrong.

But I was equally surprised that you announced that,

“we ought to be killing more people off the coast of Somalia”

Dealing with the problem – yes. Killing more people – not necessary, IMO.

Re: The ‘benefit’ of Somalia’s pirates to fisheries and seabed:

Interesting, dreoilin.

Haven’t Somali’s empoverished economies had any benefit from the millions exhorted from the pirates, or is the bulk siphoned off by those – possibly white South Africans – who understand bank transfers?

Is not piracy defined as sailing around the seas stealing what doesnt belong to you? Ie. exactly what the foreign fisherman are doing to the Somalis? Hence you seem to be supporting the Somalis attacking the true pirates.

Quoth Gordon Benito:

“Mike Cobley whines about the siege of Gaza. I bet he thinks that Israeli children shelled for years and years at Sderot should have simply put up with it. After all, they are only Jews, and the proper role of Jews is to be murdered – and say Thank You.”

My, what a busy little troll you are. For your information, I have been and always will be antiracist, regardless of what place on Earth people come from. I’m not anti-semitic, or anti-patagonian, or anti-chinese, or anti-french, or anti-american, or anti-nigerian, or anti-inuit, or anti-nepalese. I am, however, anti-STUPID! And you, Mr Bennet, are clearly in posession of more high-grade, platinum-plated STUPID than most.

Here’s a basic analysis of the Israel-Pal situation, just for you. Israel has occupied, seized and ethnically cleansed territory formerly inhabited by Palestinians. It therefore follows that Israel is an OCCUPYING FORCE; this occupation has been condemned as illegal for decades by the international community but most importantly by the Palestinians themselves. And here’s the nub of it – an OCCUPIER who has taken territory by force and maintains control by force has no recourse to the plea of self-defense. None, nada, zip. When the Soviets rolled into Afghanistan any protestations or claims of self-defense were seen as laughable. Same applies in the occupied territories.

You had the temerity to put into my mouth the words ‘they are only Jews, and the proper role of Jews is to be murdered – and say Thank You’, to which I can only say, sir, you are a fool. Israel is armed to the teeth with military forces that outgun all its neighbours, yet it stands there with its collective boot on the neck of the Palestinians and cries, ‘Stop being horrible to me!’ while turning the lives of Palestinian children into a shrieking, squalid hell.

Apologists for Israeli actions are the whiners. No doubt you will see this response as hateful mud slung against the pristine, near-saintly edifice of blameless Israel. So be it. But dont think that you can come on here and blab your inanities with impunity.

paul,

no, that’s not how piracy is defined. And I think firm action should also be taken against illegal fishermen off Africa. I was working on that years before you ever heard of Somal pirates. But if you believe that the Somali pirates have anything to do with protecting fisheries rights, you are extraordinarily naive.

“But if you believe that the Somali pirates have anything to do with protecting fisheries rights, you are extraordinarily naive.”–Craig

The fact that Channel 4 put the word “benefit” in inverted commas indicated that they were saying there was an accidental (good) spin off. There was no suggestion that the Somalis were pirating for any purpose other than cash. The web page is a brief version of what was on the News programme.

@ Craig.

“Trade is a good thing. You have to be slightly mad to believe trade is not a good thing.” – Did someone say Trade wasn’t good? Now, Trade under this system of ever expanding debt as opposed to a non usury based system. Tell me… which is mad now?

Craig,

Using deadly force against the Somali pirates seems so obvious to me. In view of the fact that the US and UK are not averse to killing people (whether illegal or not), why are they not doing so here? They could put out into the media that the pirates are working for al-Qaeda, for example, if they needed a reason to attack them. There has to be a reason for their inaction.

“They could put out into the media that the pirates are working for al-Qaeda, for example, if they needed a reason to attack them. There has to be a reason for their inaction.”

It always HAS to be a conspiracy round here, doesn’t it?

Not if you imagine they’re all different ones.

Its a shame that the topic was hijacked part way through, its something that I keep wondering about. Why don’t we just shoot pirates?

We used to shoot pirates in the distant past. The pirates are obviously armed and not adverse to using their weapons if pushed to it. Why is the Royal Navy unable to engage in international waters to prevent piracy?

Isn’t one of the duties of the Royal Navy on patrol to protect ships flying under a British flag?

I’m genuinely curious as to the answers as the current state of affairs confuses me.

“This isn’t 1942 any longer.” – Gordon Bennet

My word,you sound as if it actually is!

You could have been cast as the Bear Jew in Inglorious Basterds!

Craig: All three religions are subject to abuse by various structures set up to administer them.

The knobbling of Saudi Arabia by the UK and US in the past, and the current US attacks on Sunni-friendly Shi’a groups in Yemen at Saudi Arabia’s behest, are examples of abuse by external forces, rather than a defiency in Islam.

What puzzles me is that you and others do not support the Taliban when it tackles the corruption which causes so much abuse in Islamic countries. Afghans come to the UK and inform us of the abuses of the Taliban. But if you confront corruption, its beneficiaries will always have a sob story. Look at the bankers in the city of London. What follows is a concerted attack on the very people who are trying to tackle abuse.

Rich people in Muslim countries command political obedience and they abuse everyone in the system and look who is defending them against reform. Same old, same old. Even in this country, if someone put in place the reforms of the banking non-industry and of politics in general which many of us advocate on this blog, millions of people would be rallied by the media to stop this destruction of our honoured institutions.

It’s hard to deliver a just society, especially when those who support justice clearly prefer the status quo to the struggle for reform.

I am not starry-eyed about the Robin Hood qualities of the pirates. Nevertheless, the outrage focused on Somali pirates, while western media and governments largely ignore the misery on land in Somalia, is instructive of their priorities.

The origins of piracy DO lie in the plundering of Somali fisheries; and until peace is restored in Somalia, this problem will not end.

I am not starry-eyed about the Robin Hood qualities of the pirates. Nevertheless, the outrage focused on Somali pirates, while western media and governments largely ignore the misery on land in Somalia, is instructive of their priorities.

The origins of piracy DO lie in the plundering of Somali fisheries; and until peace is restored in Somalia, this problem will not end.

Somalian pirates may be armed criminals, but as far as i’m aware they’ve never killed a hostage and generally treat their hostages well – and other governments have a lot of responsibility for Somalis being left with the two options of poverty or piracy. During the Cold War the US and the USSR both spent time backing Siad Barre’s dictatorship and since it’s collapse have allowed massive arms sales to Somalia, dumped nuclear waste of its coasts and sent trawlers in to take much of the fish. Most of the pirates are from former fishing ports.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6045092.ece

So i really can’t agree with you on this Craig. Killing Somali pirates isn’t going to solve the problem here – it’d be dealing pretty brutally with the symptoms but not the causes.