I agree with you Craig. Let’s get out and leave the Afghans to their own devices. They can go back to the medieval theocracy that they had before, where women are mere chattels, denied an education and stoned if they have the temerity to look at a man. Bring back the middle ages eh? Seriously, I agree with you. We should get out. Afghanistan is not a nation and never has been.

Well, I’d be really happy if the Afghans could come over here and free us from the corrupt government we have; a government that systemmatically imprisons people to hide its crimes.

Yes, we have elections but elections mask the reality that whoever is elected is subservient to the permanent unaccountable government.

It took the execrable Eddie just half an hour from the time Craig put on this fine piece to come up with that vile paragraph.

I’m glad you said that about Frank Gardner; I thought it was just me…Aaronovitch is an unpleasant piece of work, though

My son and I sat down and watched Dr. Strangelove last evening and it was shocking how little progress American foreign policy has made since 1963/4. Same talk of acceptable quantities of deaths, so long as they are predominantly the deaths of designated Axis of Evil ‘foreigners’. Same deranged ignorance of and paranoia towards foreign nations having a right to their own self-determination. It was those damn Russky commies making everyone red in the face in the 1950′s and 1960′s, now it is those damn towel-heads.

Will American foreign policy (for that we must include British and Israeli) ever grow up? Will bankruptcy be the only thing which stops us. There is a permanent state of denial, and smarmy propagandists like Gardiner don’t convince me. He is just one or two links down in the Alastair Campbell food-chain. As for Miliband’s repeated denial about British policy towards torture – give us a break. These characters belong in a Dickens story.

What do Cameron and the Tories have to say about any of this? Nothing. They are too busy taking 7 million pound donations from Hedge Funders http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1f4600ba-19d1-11df-af3e-00144feab49a.html so for sure we can’t expect any change in policy towards the fat cats in the banks. Chances are other big-time donors will make sure we stay in the Middle East.

The problem is that Parliament has negligible power in decision-making which is left to the executive who are more than influenced by party donors.

From 1984, and disturbingly reminiscent of recent BBC bulletins and the commentary of Gardner.

“He could hear just enough of what was issuing from the telescreen to realize that it had all happened, as he had foreseen; a vast seaborne armada had secretly assembled a sudden blow in the enemy’s rear, the white arrow tearing across the tail of the black. Fragments of triumphant phrases pushed themselves through the din: ‘Vast strategic manoeuvre–perfect co-ordination–utter rout–half a million prisoners–complete demoralization–control of the whole of Africa–bring the war within measurable distance of its end–victory–greatest victory in human history–victory, victory, victory!’”

I thought your article was going to be about this from the Independent at first

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-anderson-we-not-only-have-a-right-to-use-torture-we-have-a-duty-1899555.html

unbelievable

mrjohn

interesting how they waver between denying they do it, and saying that it is justified

Totally agree – Frank Gardner is an especially odious tool!

The Americans are absolutely useless at winning hearts and minds. If they were not they would realize that while the death of one of their soldiers is a tragedy, the death of a non-combatant civilian as “collateral damage” is a disaster.

I question whether they actually want to win hearts and minds, perhaps their real goal is to keep the insurgency and hence the war going, enabeling the shoveling of large amounts of money from the taxes paid by poor Americans into the pockets of the owners of armaments firms and military contractors.

Is that link above from ‘mrjohn’ to Bruce Anderson?

http://tinyurl.com/y9qhub7

It’s utterly disgusting.

I don’t usually agree with eddie but in his first post above I think he is actually 100% correct. Nothing that we have done by invading the country has improved the status of women in Afghanistan. The warlords in Karzai’s corrupt government are every bit as much gynophobic misogynists as the Taliban were.

If the West can do anything to improve the lot of girls and women in Afghanistan it will not be by splattering a fair number of them over the landscape as collateral damage in air strikes designed to kill Taliban commanders in order to prop up the other lot of corrupt drug barons we have chosen to run this poor country.

The FG report mentioned an initial policy of not using bombs, but twelve people were killed at one time by a rocket. Sounds like a bomb to me. The public is shielded from the overwhelming destructive power of modern weapons, which are given the names of 18th century weapons. The report looked more like a moon-walk than warfare. The British army were behaving like US film-stars at the Oscars, bashfully presenting themselves as kind, patient heroes in a brilliant screen script.

Our troops have machine guns which automatically spray a wide screen of bullets, virtually continuously. That’s a rifle. I went to my wife’s citizenship ceremony the other day. Two solid hours of patriotic Rule Britannia type music before the ceremony took place.

Makes you wish you were Afghani or anything but British. One day, inshallah.

Shoot-from-the-hip-Eddie, if you were up with the times you would be showering your opponents with bullets, and when you looked up you wouldn’t find any audience to argue with any more. Same old, same old. Except instead of persecuting our neighbours like Scotland, Ireland and France, we have the technology to assassinate half the world.

This day, 15 February, in 2003, global protests against war on Iraq occurred in more than 600 cities worldwide. Estimates from 10 million – 20 million made this the largest day of protest in the history of humankind.

It is unsettling that Bruce Anderson thinks we live in a culture where the following is acceptable to propose:

“After much agonising, I have come to the conclusion that there is only one answer to Sydney’s question [how to extract information from an alleged plotter in a ticking bomb scenario]. Torture the wife and children.”

I kid you not: read the article. Disgusting, as @dreoilin says, and worrying too, in equal measure.

The status of women in Afghanistan is immensely higher than the status of women in the UK, who frequently go out, get drunk, get raped, take the morning after pill, spread HIV, and go back to work on Monday morning thinking of themselves nearly equivalent to the Virgin Mary.

Stick to designing bikes Mr Moulton, you seem to know more about them than Afghan women.

Jon. People need promotion. Worry about the intended audience more than the speaker.

I too wonder about the change of heart from the military. Why do they feel the need to now pronounce civilian deaths ?

They have NEVER bothered before.

Winning hearts and minds by telling the truth ?

We shall see.

“They can go back to the medieval theocracy that they had before”

As I’m sure eddie is perfectly aware, the Taliban were installed by the US. In the first half of the 20th century, during a brief respite from being fought over by global colonial powers because of its strategic importance, Afghanistan was indeed left to its own devices. Under leaders such Amanullah Khan, Nadir Shah and Zahir Shah Afghanistan pursued largely reformist policies that stressed, among other things, education and women’s rights.

I’m sure that if left to its own devices once again Afghanistan will do just fine. In fact it won’t do fine until it is left own devices.

The Taliban are civilians, except in the minds of USUKIS forces, who label them the enemy from their own fundamentalist, religious, interfering in a foreign country, illegal point of view.

Regarding the Independent piece again, there’s an excellent comment that follows it which asks whether Anderson would have the same views in the roles were reversed.

The hypothetical scenario is an external aggressor is about to invade a Gulf state, contrary to international law, and torturing the wife and child of the British Ambassador to that Gulf state might produce information prior to a bombing raid that would save thousands of civilian lives. It’s a good question – would neoconservatives of his ilk be so in favour then? Or is torture “awful but necessary” only if “we” do it?

@anon at February 15, 2010 12:48 PM: “…the status of women in the UK, who frequently go out, get drunk, get raped, take the morning after pill, spread HIV…”

Anon, I am not sure of the point of your response to Carlyle Moulton actually is – do you think education for girls is a bad thing?

I worry too about the tone of your criticism. This is veering OT, but I am wary to say the least of people who believe that raped women should blame themselves, given the “lifestyle choices” they made. Care to clarify what you meant, exactly?

On Anderson’s torture article, he sounds like he’s trying to push the boundaries of the argument, making statements that are utterly disgusting, such as the torture of wives and children.

I suspect that what this creep is hoping is that by pushing the threshold of debate on this subject will perhaps make issues like “girlie-man’s torture of water-boarding” easier for the public to accept and thus get his sociopathic friends in the intelligence industry off the hook.

Jon

At this present time, UKUS forces are striking against a Reformist group in Afghanistan. I was reminded of the UK’s protestantisation by Henry VIII by last night’s Dimbleby history programme.

Thank God Henry persevered in removing Papal control and publishing the Gospels in English.

The Reformation of Islam is 100% opposed by its enemies like the UK who have spent the last thousand years trying to disrail it. One pathetic excuse for fighting the Taliban is that their view of women is unacceptable. If you had lived with the UK victim of teenage rape and experienced the mind-boggling effects of sexual abuse in this country, you would know where I am coming from.

There is a vocal, mad, hardcore of feminists who like the status quo of abuse in this country, like old colonels who say that the harsh public school system they were brought up in never did them any harm.

On the contrary Islam protects women. The USSR invasion that preceded the current UKUS invasion of Afghanistan had resulted in an over-protective situation, which was in the process of being relaxed by the Taliban. People like Carlyle Moulton who try to justify the invasion of Muslim countries on the thread of feminism have the suffering of women and orphans on their blood-soaked hands. Crap is crap.

It’s bad enough the Frank Gardner’s colonial crap without the loony feminist crap.

Muslim women enjoy many advantages in their stable societies, or as my gym master at school said.’ I’ve got muscles in places where you haven’t even got places.’ Women in Islam enjoy benefits which western women can’t even imagine, including the tranquillity of practising a faith that will take them to heaven.

You do know who Frank Gardner is, correct? I’m not sure if he was ever officially MI6, but he’s as near in as makes no difference.

Look him up. Damn fool got his photographer killed too.

My mind is focused not on this propaganda war in Southern Afghanistan, but the wider robotic assassination program conducted by the CIA.

The agency’s operatives are recruiting anyone with a desire to make money from hand-outs to feed information into the system that the drones are killing terrorists.

Leon Panetta has said the program is, “the only game in town’ and that is meant to reinforce the belief that the world’s last great military power can still control this war. In fact behind General Stanley McChrystal ‘corner’ when turned, might have it’s own unpleasant surprises.

Anon “The status of women in Afghanistan is immensely higher than the status of women in the UK, who frequently go out, get drunk, get raped, take the morning after pill, spread HIV, and go back to work on Monday morning thinking of themselves nearly equivalent to the Virgin Mary.”

Whereof you cannot speak thereof you should be silent. Are you lot going to let this pass without comment? How low ye have fallen.

Mark

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that the USUK strategy that destroyed indigenous opposition to the invasion of Iraq, will not work in Afghanistan. Control of Iraqi oil necessitated a less destructive approach, because UKUS need an infrastructure to deliver the oil. In Afghanistan UKUS have tuned up the propaganda lies, and cranked up the destruction,if that is possible,to far higher levels even than Iraq.

Thank you for reminding us what is going on. Bush has already succeeded in uniting the Muslims of Middle East. If Obama goes on to unite the Muslims of the Middle East with the Muslims of Asia, it will definitely have consequences beyond MacChrystal’s battered copy of T E Lawrence’s manual on how to screw Islam. I wouldn’t like to be in Obama’s pyjamas when the unintended consequences start to appear.

Eddie,

Sounds like a bitter man, not even worth a comment.

Eddie, causing more trouble I suppose – hopefully you’ll have the good grace to feel silly when you realise I’ve already criticised that. Your comment about people here “falling low” is typical of your Blairite desperation: pro-torture and pro-war is not looking good these days, and you have a lot of work to do to get your position popular (indeed, if it ever was).

Your earlier sarcasm was unhelpful too. Some people here are opposed to UKUS forces killing civilians – surely you can accept that? The question of how to deal with extremist groups – aside from putting them into power in the first place of course – is actually a good question. But people will not want to discuss things with you if you behave like a troublemaker.

Oh dear Eddie, you are a square pin in a square hole so you wouldn’t know about us oddballs who have experienced both the west and the Islamic worlds. Or as Jesus is quoted in the Gospels, ‘ After you tasted new wine, you said that old wine was better’, which may or may not be what he, pbuh, actually said.

He was addressing the children of Israel to whom he had been sent to bring them back from the new ways of the Romans and Eastern polytheists, back to the old ways of Moses and Judaism. Which some of them did.

I post on this blog to call anyone who’s interested back to the values I treasure from UK Christianity, which our society has rejected in favour of Thatcher’s consumerism and Blair’s neo-colonialism. I found these values in Islam, after I ceased to be able to find them anywhere else.

AS REGULARS HERE WILL kNOW I RARELY SHOUT BUT HAVE JUST READ BRUCE ANDERSON IN TODAY’S iNDEPENDENT.

REPUGNANT,DISGRACEFUL,DISGUSTING…

SO ANGRY I’VE E-MAILED HIM AND HIS EDOTOR TO OBJECT IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.

SUGGEST MORE OF US DO SO>

b.anderosn@independent.co.uk

@anno, I am presuming that the anonymous comment at February 15, 2010 12:48 PM was you, given how close it is to your subsequent comment. Apologies if I have that wrong.

If that was you, then can you see how the comment sounds like you blame rape victims for their own predicament? You have responded to me already, but said nothing about this – I really do think this deserves a direct answer. And it wasn’t just me who noticed it, as you’ll see above.

I am not sure why you think Carlyle Moulton’s comments justify the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. On the contrary, I think his posts generally very much indicate he is against – which of his posts are you reading?

Anno,

A carefully planned massive propaganda program with a total news black-out on the Northern front, essentially conducted by the CIA and special forces; stretching into Pakistan. Even NGO’s are being carefully curtained. I cannot say much more, but please do not be deceived by thou art righteous ‘drop no bombs’ policy and Frank Gardner’s ‘see no evil’ tell no evil.

Jon. Yes,I seem to have ommitted my name.

The idea that I blame rape victims for their predicament is your idea, not mine.

I was talking about society, the Alcohol Lobby, the Feminist Lobby, the total stupidity of Blair’s relaxing of the licencing laws, the girlie magazines for teenagers.

Anno, how can you speak approvingly of the plight or status of Afghan women? It is true that under the Russians they were liberated to be doctors and teachers, and that more recently they were officially liberated from the Taliban. But the story on the ground is, surprisingly, not the propaganda churned out by the West. Have you heard of RAWA? Do you read?

-Every 30 minutes, an Afghan woman dies during childbirth

-87 percent of Afghan women are illiterate

-30 percent of girls have access to education in Afghanistan

-1 in every 3 Afghan women experience physical, psychological or sexual violence

-44 years is the average life expectancy rate for women in Afghanistan

-70 to 80 percent of women face forced marriages in Afghanistan

(source IRIN/UN 2007)

It ill behoves a truly religious person to give credibility to the behaviour of those who hide behind a religion in order to murder and brutalise.

And although I’m sure you didn’t mean to toss ‘rape’ in there as though it was some kind of amusing past time, you have an extremely Daily Mail idea of young women in the UK today. I too worry for the poor, the young, and the vulnerable in British society. Presumably you also object to women getting themselves killed and tortured as well, as in Afghanistan, Chechnya etc. The ‘religious’ leader of Chechnya, installed by the non-religious Putin, has just officially sanctioned ‘honour’ killings, by the way. Karzai has legalised rape in marriage, in a law which also forbids women to leave their houses without male permission. In Kabul 300 women who protested were stoned by onlookers. Perhaps, in your undoubtedly real concern for women, you might like to condemn that too.

@anno, I think you are being a touch disingenuous. You said: “The status of women in Afghanistan is immensely higher than the status of women in the UK, who … get raped”.

Surely that is blaming the rape victim for her own predicament?

and, anno, have just read your earlier post. A hard core of mad feminists are responsible, are they? When all the things you rail about (‘girlie’ magazines, abuse) are the antithesis of feminism? Do you know anything about feminism?

This is sheer nonsense:

“On the contrary Islam protects women. The USSR invasion that preceded the current UKUS invasion of Afghanistan had resulted in an over-protective situation, which was in the process of being relaxed by the Taliban”

How can you twist history like this? Is this what you were taught? If so, where?

Jon,

I cannot post a comment on Anderson’s piece – fails to connect on post – is it just my connection to the Independent?

@technicolour: yes, the stuff about “mad hardcore of feminists” confused me. Apparently they like the abuse (presumably the prevalence of rape) even though they rail against it?

This seems to me a religiously inspired complaint against liberalism, which is rather off-topic, and in any case as you point out, crimes done in the name of religion are sidelined.

Mark: I had that problem using IE but was able to connect hen I switched to Firefox.

@Mark – not sure, not tried to comment myself. The comment I found of particular interest was not mine.

technicolour,

The website from which you gain your views of Afghan women from is based in California and run by a guy originally from Afghanistan who grew up in New York from the age of 6 before moving to California.

I’m not claiming anything about the accuracy of the content, but note Laura Bush is concerned about the plight of 1.5 Million Afghan widows.

No one is claiming that her husband George is responsible for all the Deaths, as the Russians and British have been killing their husbands and children too.

Maybe if we stopped bombing them to fuck, things might improve for Afghan women.

Tony

Tony: my ‘views’ are based on interviews with Afghan women. The facts I quoted are from the IRN/UN. I suggest you look at RAWA’s website – written by and for women in Afghanistan.

http://www.rawa.org

Or Press TV; in case that suits you better:

“Afghan women (who) are suffering more hardships than ever and are no where near being liberated … in fact many of them ask me what it means…Malalai Joya, Afghanistan’s youngest ever woman MP, who was suspended from Karzai’s “democratic government’ for speaking her mind told me: “We are trapped between two enemies: the Taliban on one side and American and NATO forces and their warlords on the other.” ”

Of course stopping bombing them to fuck would be a start.

technicolour

Can’t help it if you can’t connect with my point of view, but, did you know that before the British Raj 80% of India as was, was literate. AFTER THEY LEFT, LESS THAN 20%.

I’ve seen nothing to suggest that the present colonialism is less effective at destruction than its predecessor for all the Blair spin.

Peter Dale Scott on the realnews.com eloquently explains the root of the problem

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4753

Tony

All I can think is, bunches of men quarrelling over who gets to decide what “women” ought to wear (all of them, all the same ?). Dead modern, that. The humble grateful little natives of Iraq were going to greet their liberators with rose-petals and candy, too, remember ?

Also, “it never was a nation”. But it’s always been a place, with people living there. Perhaps they might have known a thing or two about how to get along ? As, perhaps, we do, here. But maybe what was appropriate for our situations (if it is. We’re not actually sure, are we ?) might not be for theirs ?

But, “leave them alone” … it just isn’t going to happen, is it ? Is anybody familiar with the history of the Scots highlands, for an on-topic bodyswerve ? I’m not, particularly, I’m just thinking of the story as told by John Prebble – Glencoe/Culloden/Clearances – and can’t help thinking it looks familiar. Wild uncivilised tribespeople in their inhospitable mountain wastelands, who cares ? Keep them in with a line of forts (Highland, Durand), leave them to themselves. And then a state wants to grow & strengthen itself, gets unhappy with “ungoverned” people, they have to be “brought into submission”. And then a few people start seeing how it’s not a worthless wasteland after all, there are ways it could all be making money for them, if only they could control it … and they have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the eighteenth century, the nineteenth century, the Century of the Moonbat … and now, where are the descendants of the people who lived there ?

What I mean is – there’s much jabbering about “multiculturalism”, but it’s a construct of a culture that knows it’s the boss, really, whenever it wants to be. Do any mechanisms exist whereby Afghanistan could be ‘left alone’ as ‘not a nation’ ?

Anno. No reply to my questions, or to the facts about the real ‘status’ of Afghan women. But thanks for the statistic about literacy after the Raj.

Richard Robinson: MJ, earlier: “In the first half of the 20th century, during a brief respite from being fought over by global colonial powers because of its strategic importance, Afghanistan was indeed left to its own devices. Under leaders such Amanullah Khan, Nadir Shah and Zahir Shah Afghanistan pursued largely reformist policies that stressed, among other things, education and women’s rights.”

Technicolour

If only what was on the label of feminism was what was in the bottle.

Feminists don’t like girlie magazines. Yes they think it’s degrading for women to be controlled by patriarchal religious laws, but they’re quite happy to degrade themselves as much as they want and more.

And by the way, anno, no, I can’t connect with your point of view. Because it is not so much a ‘point of view’ as a seemingly deliberate ignoring of the facts. You can amend this by addressing them.

@anno – I’d be interested in how you think feminists “degrade themselves as much as they want and more”. And, in particular, how your perceptions of the behaviour of British women excuse the treatment of Afghan women under religious tyranny.

You have also ignored technicolour’s, and my, objections to what appears to be a disgraceful position on rape. I asked a direct question at February 15, 2010 4:59 PM and would appreciate a direct answer, if you wish to be fully understood.

Anno

Your misogynistic hate-filled rants about women are vile. Either you don’t believe them or you are just spouting them to provoke. You don’t really believe them do you? I didn’t think so.

You do realise that when the Taliban took power they stopped women working – all of them. It was like year zero under the Khmer Rouge. The health service, for a start, was destroyed and thousands died. And you support this kind of thing? I refuse to believe it.

Sorry, so feminists pose for porn mags? Since when? (Greer was showing her vagina to make a point btw)

And you’re saying that earning money for a pornographic photoshoot is as degrading as being forbidden to leave your house, being forced into an arranged marriage, and having to submit to legalised rape for the rest of your life?

Perhaps. I think the point is, the woman in the photoshoot generally has a choice; unless they have been drugged or forced, which happens, but is illegal. Which would you choose?

And then on top of this you’re saying that women who pose for porn mags are ‘happy’ to degrade themselves? I don’t think anyone is ‘happy’ to degrade themselves.

@anno – I am also rather losing track of the questions you have avoided. I put it to you earlier that you misunderstood Carlyle Moulton’s position on the war, which sounded strongly against to me. Strangely enough we have not heard anything more about that.

We agree on much, to be sure. Most people here were opposed to the invasion of Iraq on legal and humanitarian grounds, and whilst the invasion of Afghanistan at least was multilateral, it does not change the fact that we are destroying the country, propping up a corrupt warlord and recruiting a fresh generation of people who hate the West.

But your adherence to your religion, as if it were a universal truth for us all, rather than a personal faith for those who choose it, is I think blinding you to the complexity of the world. There is no black and white, and many of the problems in the world come from people – bin Laden, Bush and Blair amongst them – who insist that there is.

jon: you put it much better.

Mark

Lack of information can lead to exaggeration. Colonialism requires three ingredients: overwhelming force, denigration of opponents, and lies.

My sister’s Afghan lady lodger upset her by calling her ‘the disbeliever’. The idea that any Muslim would even consider Western influence as benign is totally ridiculous. People on the ground in a war zone have to lie for the sake of security. There is no level at which western force can impinge on Afghan consciousness, however many Afghans, men or women come forward to testify in favour of the west, they are just collecting the money.

This is what makes the war in Afghanistan so outrageous. The re-re-re-re-re taking of villages, for absolutely no change in people’s loyalty or contribution to their security.

Our bombs have to be targeted at the hypocrisy of Western government, the vacuousness of International Law when Bush cancelled all human rights in the War on Terror , the acidity of feminism on the family, the bankcruptcy of the interest based banking system.

NATO is engaged in one of its now annual genocides in Afghanistan. They have absolutely no power to change the mentality or lifestyle of the Muslims, except to kill them all.

anno,

I found some evidence to go some way in supporting your views with regards to education in India prior to the British, though I cannot believe that literacy rates were anything like as high as you stated. India does however have an interesting educational history

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/t_es/t_es_goyal_education.htm

Educational standards have most definitely fallen in the UK over the last 50 years, and arguably so have standards of morality.

However, it depends how you define morality. Some issues with respect to tolerance of unusual behaviour that doesn’t cause harm, or of totally different cultures has improved. For example my parents would have found it intolerable, if I had friends who were openly homosexual, yet my wife and myself have no such issues.

There is almost certainly far less school playground violence, than when I was a child.

Where immoral behaviour has increased, it is usually down to the breakdown of families.

Politicians and other leaders of society bear an awesome responsibility for their immoral behaviour, as they provide a moral standard of what becomes subconsciously acceptable in society as a whole.

That is why it is vitally important, that they are treated under the law in exactly the same way as everyone else.

Tony

Jon

I’m not at home and I’ve probably overrun my 3 modem allowance by now.

I’m not interested at this moment in time in discussing ANY justifications for bombing and killing in Afghanistan. I wish the British people did not have bloodlust in the 21 st century, but they do, and they seem to be able to find as many snakelike ways of justifying aggression as their leaders Straw and Blair. Feminism is just one of them.

Apart from being used to justify aggression I don’t mind what feminists do. I really don’t care. It’s not me telling them how to live their lives, it’s them telling us how to live ours and using the NATO military machine to enforce their opinions AND as Tony_bless him Opmoc puts it: ‘Maybe if we stopped bombing them to fuck, things might improve for Afghan women’.

I agree with eddie, anno, you are an (unpleasant) joker, surely.

Who is discussing justifications for bombing Afghanistan? No-one on this thread.

Feminists are responsible for the NATO military machine? Have you heard of Greenham Common?

It’s tragic, this conflation and confusion. Young women in the UK often drink too much. Do ‘they’? If so, fine, let’s see why. But no, in your view they are happy to degrade themselves and get raped and spread HIV. Afghan women, on the other hand, have ‘higher status’ because they are locked indoors and being raped is a legal duty.

Have you thought about any of this? Until you do, I give up. Otherwise, you might be cheered by the comments on your ‘point of view’ on the thread below, if you could ever accept them.

Having said that, what can we do? Afghanistan, Afghanistan, my friends.

The sorrow and grief, these black evenings,

Eyes full of tears and times full of sadness,

These burnt hearts, the killing of youths,

These unfulfilled expectations and unmet hopes of brides,

With a hatred for war, I call time and again,

I wait for peace for the grief-stricken Pashtuns

Zarlasht Hafeez

“Feminists don’t like girlie magazines. Yes they think it’s degrading for women to be controlled by patriarchal religious laws, but they’re quite happy to degrade themselves as much as they want and more.”

Well, at least it’s themselves who make the choices, about what degrades them and whether they’ll do it; that seems preferrable to having somebody else doing it for them ? (insert here the argument about how economic forces falsify this statement).

Anno, I don’t agree with your comments on the nature of “feminists”, but I do think you have a point about the way some of their arguments have been taken up by the effort to persuade people here in favour of the western military’s presence & actions in other peoples’ countries.

All _sorts_ of justifications are offered, after all. “Bloodlust”, you say ? Not in “the people”, generally, I really don’t think. I think a lot of people are fairly inert, right enough – people do seem to have discomfort about things like criticising the government in time of war ? – but I don’t think very many people actively wanted anything like what was done in their name, or take any joy in it. Most of the evidence to the contrary seems to be opinions provided by the media people. Or perhaps someone could argue that the people I meet aren’t representative, I don’t know.

“The status of women in Afghanistan is immensely higher than the status of women in the UK, who frequently go out, get drunk, get raped, take the morning after pill, spread HIV, and go back to work on Monday morning thinking of themselves nearly equivalent to the Virgin Mary.

Stick to designing bikes Mr Moulton, you seem to know more about them than Afghan women.”

I wonder which piece of illiberal mediaeval excrement came up with that comment. You must be so proud of your readership, Craig. Sharia for an Independent Scotland campaign next?

Hark, what’s that, anno? Another response that refuses to answer these several questions. I think I am moving you from my “religionist” to my “wilful troublemaker” column.

Of course the government and war supporters appeal to women’s rights to justify the war. But that is not at all the same thing as genuine feminists supporting the war independently. Your quarrel should be with the liars in government, and not feminists per se. I’d say most feminists are on the left, and so would generally be against the war in Afghanistan, although I appreciate that won’t always hold true.

I think your mistake is that you equate feminism with liberalism, and all the other things you think are opposed to your faith, and you roll them up into a single “non-Islamic” bloc and make them responsible for everything you are against.

You repeat your central believe that the British people have “bloodlust” – a strong charge to make – but you won’t justify it. Feminism in itself is not pro-war, however much you disapprove of (Western) feminism.

Finally, given that you won’t distance yourself from your earlier comments – the strong implication that rape victims must bear some responsibility because they chose their permissive lifestyles – I can’t help reach the same conclusion as others on this thread. You appear to be seriously misogynist in your views, which will not stand you in good stead here.

“Can’t help it if you can’t connect with my point of view, but, did you know that before the British Raj 80% of India as was, was literate. AFTER THEY LEFT, LESS THAN 20%” – “Anno”

Could you prove that, you inbred twat?

“Can’t help it if you can’t connect with my point of view, but, did you know that before the British Raj 80% of India as was, was literate. AFTER THEY LEFT, LESS THAN 20%” – “Anno”

By the way, I take it you’re in the 20%?

Ah, not long after Eddie decides that the whole of the blog’s readership is supportive of Anno’s position on rape, our newer troublemaker decides that Anno is also representative of Craig’s views.

Logical errors abound in some of the trolls here, sadly!

I bet a fair portion of the readership here do agree with him/her. All those slags in the Ministry of Sound? Deserve to be killed, don’t they?

Jon: of course feminists (who are really also humanists) would be against dropping bombs on people.

Who is ‘alan campbell’ (jon, I don’t think he’s eddie) and why is he getting away with such repulsive statements as ‘inbred twat’?

I may not agree with anno, but I defend etc etc. He sometimes engages, I hope he will feel cheered by this, not driven into a corner.

drat, I am sounding like Clark (icon blowing loving kisses at Clark). For the record, I have quite a great (perhaps Irish) temper and am nowhere near as nice as I sound.

Because I zecretly believe in a perpetual war between people of different melatonin levels. Mwahaa!

If that Brute Anderson is advocating the use of torture, is he not committing an offence?

Shouldn’t the police be having a word with him about his behaviour?

Perhaps someone needs to make a complaint?

It has been alleged in a number of highly reliable media loci that Mister Francis Gardner is deep enmeshed in the SIS, so deeply enmeshed that it is hard to begin to differentiate between a salaried Albert Embankment Officer and Mister Francis Gardner.

Discuss.

I’ve never been in any doubt that He was a spook. It’s kinda obvious.

He’a another with one of those curious career trajectories.

In many ways it looks as if spooks and spook recruits are taking over the country, there’s so many of them in media and politics.

The worrying things about many sppoks is that they’re seriously deranged individuals.

Explains why we’re in the mess we’re in.

Sorry, “technicolour”, but “Anno’s” comments about Western women are far more “repulsive” than my childish insults. The fact that you don’t see that says quite a lot about you.

That was me.

Jon

I am heartened by your responses to anno. I thought the fact that he had gone unchallenged at first reflected badly on Craig’s regulars, but I was wrong, so well done for attacking his repulsive views. I am not Mr Campbell, only myself, albeit pseudonymous like most here.

I always have this sneaky feeling that if,say, a dirty bomb were to be set off in downtown Manhattan, a big chunk of the readership on this site would let out an almighty cheer of happiness. Just a feeling. And that community of extremists, I’m afraid, is who Craig, in his bitterness at mistreatment by the FCO, has ended up communing with. A similar path of nutterdom as Shayler, Tomlinson, Icke etc.

@ alan campbell

Craig’s case against the FCO was their complicity in torture.

The judges agreed with Craig.

So how is he a nutter?

Why aren’t you a nutter for disagreeing with what’s now pretty obvious?

People tend not to have a lot of sympathy for bullies who get their comeuppance.

That’s a natural human response.

What I find strange is the inordinate amount of sympathy extended to 911 compared to the relatively little sympathy to the victims of US terrorism over the years.

That’s an astounding level of hypocrisy, enaged in by media too.

So even those well-spoken nicely dressed people who smile at you from the telly are complicit in the evil and responsible for it too.

There’s plenty of Lord Haw Haws doing the rounds on British telly, and every one of them is as gulit as the American terrorists themselves, so they’d need to watch themselves too.

We won’t always live under the rule of these evil people who govern us today.

Thanks Eddie. I tend to try to extend a hand of understanding to people who I completely disagree with, and anno seemed to be prevaricating on the rape issue. I think that a non-confrontational tone can sometimes win people around.

It’s similar to my meeting with a representive from a group advocating Sharia law for the UK. Some members of the public just fell out with them, and some threats were issued; such responses just harden already entrenched views. However pointing out the logical contradictions – as with anno’s concern for women conflicting with his distaste for Western female empowerment – can product results in the long term.

Incidentally I didn’t intend to imply that you and Alan are the same person – just that it is a mistake to assume that the readers here, or Craig, are in step with anno’s misogyny.

Jon

I did distance myself from your concoctions about rape. So given nothing. I compared Islamic societies which protect women with Western societies which expose women.Nothing there puts any blame on the women themselves however hard you labour the point. It’s a bit thick of you to keep trying to put words in my mouth all day, if you don’t mind my saying.

The fact remains that there was a very strong feminist element in the original invasion of Afghanistan that wanted to give stick to Afghan male chauvinism.

That motive was flawed, in my opinion, but it continues to be used as a justification for escalating the war. I repeat, if they can’t change the Afghan people, they will carry on killing them until there are no more Afghans left. Feminism = don’t mess with us = ethnic cleansing of those who disagree with us = nice.

How are the Afghans going to be ethnically cleansed? Not by our nice army boys and their nice New Labour political allies in the war against Islam, the feminists, but by a Hitler-style rounding up of Taliban supporter- suspects who can be handed over to Dostum and slaughtered as previously in detention camps. Nice. Nice Nice.

What’s the technical term for that? miso-murder of Muslims? Prat!

Perhaps things might become clearer if Anno would like to name some names, say who he thinks some of these ‘feminists’ are ?

@Anno, you’re dodging the questions here. I am not at all putting works in your mouth, nor concocting views you do not have. You said:

“The status of women in Afghanistan is immensely higher than the status of women in the UK, who … get raped”.

I am glad that you now say “nothing there [i.e. that you've said] puts any blame on the women themselves”, which is a start, though I am now left wondering why you mentioned rape in the first place. It is not unreasonable for me to point this out, especially since several other people are taking you to task for it!

My position on conflating disingenuous feminist positions (i.e the “liberation” of Afghan women) with genuine feminism still stands. I maintain therefore that you should have no qualms with feminists in general, especially since most of them will agree with you about the war anyway.

You’ve not responded to the point about your holding all Britons responsible for the invasion. White British people do not greet you enthusiastically as a code to support the war. If they greet you it is to say hello, first and foremost; as a white Briton myself, when I say hello to my Jamaican, Indian and Pakistani neighbours, I am (a) saying hello, and (b) encouraging an atmosphere of multicultural trust. The idea that I might be gleefully enjoying the violence of my own government is ridiculous, and I reject the accusation completely.

I reject your rejection completely.

the people of this country do not like the cleanness of real Islam. they don’t mind the ground down versions you find in some Muslims countries which have been battered by colonialism before.

They really resent the burka, badly, and it makes them happy when the people of the burkha suffer, badly.

The people of Lot complained about clean people who did not engage in sodomy like themselves. their city and their land was turned upside down at the site of the dead sea. My prophet and his army , peace be upon him, covered their heads and faces and shame to be so close to destruction of the people of Lot.

Homosexuality and feminism are two sides of the same coin. While the men are engaging with each other,the ladies indulge themselves free from the commands of Allah. What they want to do, do. Give me a hard time, please. I am a miso-feminist, unashamedly. I condemn the sexual perfidy and destruction of the family of UK society, utterly.

The British public wring their hands and cry crocodile tears about genocide. but they know full well, whether it is Karadic in Bosnia, the Lords Resistance Army in Sudan, or criminal warlords in Afghanistan, ethnic cleansing of Muslims is being perpetrated time and time again by the superpowers through these mercenaries.

The whole world knows it, even if you don’t know.

“the people of this country … They really resent the burka, badly, and it makes them happy when the people of the burkha suffer, badly.”

Not all of them. Some of them _wear_ it, FFS. The “people of the country” are more varied than you’re saying.

anno,

Most people become aware of their sexuality at puberty. The vast majority are heterosexual. Something like around 5% at a guess are obviously homosexual and they always will be. Its not something they can do anything about. Its not a learnt experience. Its genetic.

There’s probably another 5% who are unclear of their sexuality – or bisexual.

Whilst I am a strong believer in the advantages of being brought up in a family, if a gay man or woman attempts to live a lie, by suppressing their sexuality and marrying it is usually disastrous for everyone.

The Muslim approach to homosexuality is blatantly wrong. There is nothing wrong with being a homosexual, and religions that condemn it are condemning 5-10% of their congregation through no fault of their own.

Tony

I don’t believe that the causes of homosexuality are genetic, rather, social and psychological. Just as real and unavoidable, for many people, in the sick environment we find ourselves in. Islam fosters trust between the sexes and sorts out the brain.

Feminism by contrast defines empowerment of women in terms of gender conflict instead of gender cohesion. I would love women to be empowered in all spheres of life, including the spiritual, but all they can think of doing is destroying stability. The logic of their thinking leads them to destroying Islam. They are the major perpetrators of the wars of our time because they believe that Muslims’ following of God’s laws is an obstacle to their empowerment. 100000000000000000000000000000% wrong.

it does not surprise me at all to find that Craig has found stability and happiness with a Muslim sister. The perfidy of western woman is enough to drive any man insane.

@tony_opmoc – thanks for your post on the natural incidence of homosexuality. I wonder if it is somewhat environmental in nature, as opposed to completely genetic, but I think we’re agreed that being gay “just happens” and as such, we should accept it, however it is caused.

Whatever, this of course is no reason to bomb anyone.

Thank you for this statement.

It’s not helpful, when our prime minister tells us our troops are fighting to prevent terrorist attacks in the UK, that the majority of people in this country who don’t like Islam support his war-mongering because of their prejudices, and do not go further to think about the merits of his argument.

To save the possibility of a disruption on our streets, Gordon Brown is sweeping heavily armed troops across a foreign country, displacing millions and hoovering up thousands of possible supporters of the Taliban into the death camps of General genocide Dostum.

The last ICM poll showed 47 percent against the ‘war’ in Afghanistan, with 46 percent in favour. 60 percent wanted the troops to leave, either immediately or within 2 years. (July 2009)

Is anyone else surprised by this? It’s good news for anno, since it still proves that the majority of people do not support the invasion, but why has support risen? According to the BBC “a similar poll in 2006 found 31% backed the UK’s action while 53% opposed it.” Is it that people are ‘supporting’ UK soldiers, or are they really convinced by the argument that killing Afghans will keep us safe?

@anno et al:

The debate widens out somewhat, and whilst we probably agree on many observations, our prescriptions diverge substantially. The only problem with your perspective (that the only solution to the worlds problems is a religious one) is that we cease to have a common language to talk about solutions at all. But your religion permits you to posit secular solutions, and I am in favour of secular solutions, so there we have common language.

But onto some of the other points, on which I think we may just have to disagree. You continue to insist without foundation that British people hate Islam, in the context of wanting to destroy Muslim societies, killing believers etc. I don’t think this is true and I don’t see any evidence for it.

True, we do live in a culture of Islamophobia, and I am the first to agree that negative stereotypes abound, as well as a soft racist “fear of the other”. This is primarily a media construct, of course, set up consciously or otherwise to make ‘selling the war’ easier to the domestic public. But if technicolour’s stats on the British public are correct, we are hardly seeing a major endorsement for the war, are we?

Furthermore, if a Briton supports the war, this is not evidence that he hates Muslims. He *may* do, but that would require further evidence that I just don’t detect – though I’d be interested to see if you have poll data, for example. I appreciate some people hate Muslims, but it is not the whole population, as you seem to think.

Your position that “Islam fosters trust between the sexes and sorts out the brain” is akin to the Christian Evangelicals in the US who claim from time to time that they have cured a person of their homosexuality – an impressionable and vulnerable person is then paraded about to “prove” that this sexuality conversion has happened.

I admit to having had similar perspectives on homosexuality as you, inculcated by puritannical and religiously extreme parenting (C of E). Thankfully I was also well-educated, which enabled me to escape from that dogmatic mindset, and I hope that you, as a homophobe, can do so too.

I might say as this point that I try as much as I can to make criticisms of Islam carefully, given the Islamophobia I mentioned earlier. In particular, I recognise that there are many readings of Islam, and some are quite different from yours. I have no reason to suspect that other versions are less valid that yours, but I am inclined to think that you are bound by your prescriptive views generally to regard other readings as heresy. On that matter, I do hope that in time you might be more generous towards the potential validity of other people’s positions.

Sadly, that might take some time, given your references to a “real Islam” – presumably which includes female deference, if not servitude, the mandatory wearing of the burka, and an oppressive anti-sex regime in favour of the introduction of Islamic law to Britain.

Technicolour also raised some good points about extremist Islamic interpretation, and I would hope you would consider those issues sympathetically. I don’t imagine Allah would be in favour of female slavery or legalised rape, whatever it says in the Koran, or with whatever bias it is read.

Again, your determining “feminists” as the originators of the war is baseless and far-fetched. You are, as I and technicolour have already said, conflating things you do not like and making them responsible for the invasion. Why not consider the hard financial reasons why NATO is in Afghanistan? Could it have something to do with the intended oil pipeline routes, perhaps? Is it also relevant that Afghanistan is in an ideal strategic position to assert Western dominance over the Middle East?

I wonder, in fact, whether your real reason for disliking feminists – is that you believe female emancipation is against your religion. You did say: “[you] would love women to be empowered in all spheres of life” but you couldn’t resist adding “including the spiritual” at the end of that sentence. I think this means that the empowerment you had in mind is constrained by your harsh interpretation of the Koran, and that more permissive Islamic interpretations are wrong – for reasons unknown.

Given your earlier statement on Western female behaviour, and your condemnation of their alleged “perfidy”, I think your attitudes towards women could do with improving. This is especially the case given that, to my mind, you have not cleared up your perspective on the causes of rape – if you believe Western standards of behaviour leave women “asking for it” then you think ill of men too, and your whole world-view needs revision!

I don’t know if there is anything more that I can add, given your steadfast holding to an extreme position, except to read Muslim (and non-Muslim) texts that represent all shades of your religion. You don’t need me to tell you that there is plenty of debate about Islam in the Islamic world, and perhaps if you looked at other perspectives, you might come to a gentler, and less prescriptive, position on how other people should behave.

This poll – you don’t say where. UK poll ? ‘majority of people’ in the UK ?

It depends on who’s poll you believe, what questions are asked, and when you ask them

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/afghan+poll+majority+want+troops+home/3411597

Afghan poll: majority want troops home

By Channel 4 News

Updated on 05 November 2009

Seventy three per cent of people wanting British troops to be withdrawn from Afghanistan, a YouGov survey for Channel 4 News reveals. YouGov president Peter Kellner breaks down the results.

Opposition to the war in Afghanistan has risen sharply in the past fortnight. Two weeks ago, 42 per cent of the British public thought the Taliban could be defeated, while 48 per cent thought they could not.

Click here to see the full results (.xls).

Now, following the deaths of five British soldiers yesterday and President Karzi’s much-challenged victory in the recent election, just 33 per cent think the war can be won, while a clear majority, 57 per cent think victory is no longer possible.

As a result, 35 per cent now think all British troops should be withdrawn immediately ?” compared with 25 per cent two weeks ago.

Only 20 per cent think they should remain in the country “as long as Afghanistan’s government wants them there” ?” down from 29 per cent two weeks ago.

Women are especially keen to see British troops come home: 40 per cent think they should be withdrawn immediately, while just 13 per cent think they should stay as long as they are needed. Men divide more evenly: 31 per cent want them home immediately; while 28 per cent think they should stay as long as they are needed.

These figures are likely to concern MPs. Public opinion lacks the power to force Parliament to end Britain’s involvement; however, no Government likes to commit troops to an extended conflict, and a rising death toll, with so little public support.

Click here to see the full results (.xls).

* 73 per cent of people want troops to be withdrawn from Afghanistan immediately, or most withdrawn soon with the rest within the next year or so.

* That figure rose to 77 per cent in London.

* Support for troops in Afghanistan was highest in Scotland at 24 per cent.

* People aged over 55 were the least likely to support troops being in Afghanistan, with 77 per cent wanting troops withdrawn immediately or soon.

* Just 21 per cent of people aged 18-54 believed British troops should remain in the country as long as the Afghan government wants them there.

Tony

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/13/afghanistan-war-poll-public-support

Thanks Tony.

“Is it that people are ‘supporting’ UK soldiers, or are they really convinced by the argument that killing Afghans will keep us safe?”

Hard to say, not having my own surveys, but I suspect it might have to do with the way the news is. Big Battle Looms, Our Brave Boys At Risk (oh, and Girls, of course, mustn’t forget the ladies, must we, patronising smirk. Ahem, sorry).

I mean, a strong tendency for people to think that other people will think they’re letting those individual soldier-people down, betraying them as individuals, by suggesting that it might be less than a perfect idea. A variant of “how do you ask someone to be the last to die for a mistake ?”. Not wanting the troops sent out there is to undermine them, concern for the country is a lack of patriotism. My Country Right Or Wrong, Don’t You Know There’s A War On ? etc. We have it well internalised.

@Richard Robinson – quite agree, nationalism and patriotism play a large part in support, sometimes subconsciously. All of that is a long way from a widespread deep hatred of the enemy – whoever that is exactly – or of Muslims in general.

“quite agree, nationalism and patriotism play a large part in support, sometimes subconsciously.”

I think it’s vaguer and less positive than that, people expecting “everybody else” to hold such an opinion rather than holding it themself. If you see what I mean ? (Propaganda works best when you don’t tell people what they should think – just tell them that everybody else does, and people will adjust to that even when they don’t agree).

“All of that is a long way from a widespread deep hatred of the enemy – whoever that is exactly – or of Muslims in general.”

Oh, yes. And – “Whoever that is” – yes. Who’s on offer for us to project our fears onto ? It keeps striking me, it all seems so ill-defined, the project keeps shifting. Has anybody ever published a clear set of War Aims ?

Jon

Thanks for the minute analysis of my perspective. I really only raised feminism because I think it’s wrong to use dislike of Muslim treatment of women as we find it in some corners of the world as a justification for Nazi-style progroms against Muslims in those countries.

The more I think about what is being done NOW in our name, the more it reminds me of Gaza last year. Would it have been patriotic for Israelis to support those terrible attacks? Is it our patriotic duty look the other way while Brown commits similar crimes.

If so, I’ll go and sign up for the UK SS now. Nothing at all else to do on the work front. I particularly like those khaki green trousers with extra padding on the thighs. Heil Braun!

Ah, This is exactly what I was looking for! Dispells

a few misnomers I’ve heard

@anno. You’re welcome. I hope it gives food for thought, and I should be happy if you want to come back to me on specific points. I think this sort of to-and-fro adds shape and character to each sides’ thought processes.

In any case, despite our differences we are largely agreed on some big things: our UK rulers are practised liars, and killing civilians is unjust and counterproductive.

Anno,

sexuality and gender are more complicated than the simple categories of male and female. This is not sociology or psychology, it is physical science. A good summary of the evidence up until 1989 can be found in “BrainSex” by Anne Moir and David Jessel.

As to our patriotic duties, I think that we should try to regain control of our “democracy”.

Jon, your forbearance is admirable. As for Lot’s wife, let me tell you that I too was turned into a pillar of salt many years ago, but that because it rains a lot in the west of Scotland, I dissolved.

Asma Barlas writes well on this nexus. Check her work out on amazon or elsewhere.

I Had suspicions about this guy’s political persuasions. I guess he is part of the British Establishment’s patriotic spin-Kipling machine.

Comic Opera may be one way of seeing

the “players” of “Democratic Bloody Afghanistan” and the former production, “Democratic Bloody Iraq”–I consider them to be black comedies, in the genre of “Holocaust meets Armageddon”, by the Fiddler-on-the-roof players.