not sure you’re right here. don’t think there’s a big leap from ‘our troops should come home’ to ‘afghans are entitled to defend themselves’ and most people i know are firmly in the ‘our troops should come home’ camp. in fact the only people that seem to think our troops should be there are some politicians, and right wing nutters who think we’re in the middle of a holy war fighting against a global caliphate.

Brian

It’s a small logical step but a big emotional leap when they are fighting British troops. But no mainstream political party leader is even saying bring our boys home.

Agree with you completely. Especially about Nick Clegg – I dont think I’ve been so disappointed in a leader of the LibDems, my own party (about whose program I am becoming increasingly dubious). Clegg has missed innumerable opportunities to give the government a kicking and nail the party’s colours to the mast of real, national issues. The man is insipid and ineffective, steering the LD party along a lowkey course in the belief that, come the next GElection, another dozen or so seats will turn LibDem by default.

For all the furore over MPs expenses and El Gordo’s demeanour, we are still being governed by a party of warmongers and neoliberal, atlanticist Washington boot-lickers. I’m still going to vote, and almost certainly for LDs on the basis that they are least likely to be as godawful as the other two.

Also, a Liberal Democrat govenment would be significantly more responsive to public opinion than either Tory or Labour. Put it this way – if a Ld prime minister tried to carry out the kind of ghastly atrocities we’ve seen in the last 30 years, they would be faced with revolt in the ranks.

Well, no doubt someone will find something in the above to sneer at.

Gladstone’s right of course but then he was a man of principle and values which have disappeared.

Did you ever get the chance to visit Fasque when you were studying Craig? Back in the early 90s the family opened the house to the public but few visited really. I was one of the few and it was an exciting period in my life. The family made all his records available and you could sit and browse his journals et al at your leisure. No facilities to photocopy anything of course so notes had to be taken in shorthand and quickly transposed to English before I forgot the meaning.

Just a couple of years ago the family sold the house and much of the content.

The more I think about his work, the more I realise this country will never have his like again.

Thanks for the Gladstone quote. Yet more evidence, were any necessary to those of us who know any history, that the Victorians could teach our leaders a thing or two about morality and common sense.

“Anyone who suggested today that the Afghans have a right to resist foreign occupation would be drowned out in screams of “Wooton Basset” and the false, flatulent patriotism of newspaper proprietors and editors sat on their well-padded arses in comfortable offices…”

Very nicely put. It is remarkable, isn’t it, how easily most people can blind themselves to mass murder for which they – thanks to our wonderful democratic system – are indirectly responsible?

all ages are repleate with people who can teach us a thing or two.

the problem is with the sheep like actions the majority of the populous, ‘it doesnt affect me its not my problem & what can I do?’ attitude

The way you add historical depth to the debate is admirable.

Craig

It’s not often I have cause to quibble with anything you say on here but I feel I have to pull you up re Charles Kennedy.

Have you forgotten that it was he who sacked Jenny Tonge for making the following statement -

“If I had been a mother and a grandmother in Palestine living for decades in that situation, I don’t know, I may well have become one (a suicide bomber) myself.”

I was disgusted by his lack of courage.

Andy

Andy,

It wasn’t Charlie’s initiative and he didn’t want to do it. Sorry there are some things I know that I can’t divulge.

If Charles Kennedy was still leader of the Lib Dems then we would actually have someone to vote for… as it is with Clegg I find it hard to find any substantive differences between any of the parties as they all pursue a neo-liberal course.

Very depressing.

Going by the quote, Gladstone’s objection to the brutality appears to have been that it was carried out under no political necessity – in other words, the Afghans had the right to resist violence which was unlikely to do the British ruling classes any good. I’m not sure there’s anything there for our modern paragons to argue with.

Philip,

He simply meant it was not a war of self-defence.

In that case, good for him. From my vague recollections of O level Social and Economic History, he certainly doesn’t seem to have been the triangulating kind.

Agree with @mike_cobley about the Lib Dems in general. They previously had a redistributive perspective on tax, but now we have a 50% bracket, they’ve dropped their support for it. This is presumably intended to hoover up a few middle class centrist voters angry with Brown/NL, but still not yet ready to vote Tory i.e. not very principled.

I would have echoed @Andy’s comments about Jenny Tonge – the Lib Dems were the one party (OK, except for the Greens and a few independents) who I would have thought would not have fired someone for understanding the Palestinian plight. But Craig’s note is curious – one can only hope that information reaches the public domain from someone else; I am guessing that someone with Israeli sources of funding was threatening to withdraw substantial financial support for the party.

Brian,

‘right wing nutters who think we’re in the middle of a holy war fighting against a global caliphate.’

A sniff round ForcesReunited proves what you are saying, Brian; what the hell are we doing in Afghanistan? 99% solid!

You have put your finger on the reason why 39% of America (right) support this insane ‘war’ and murder of civilians.

BOTCHED AFGHAN AIR RAIDS

A brief and by no means exacting account of murders recorded:

Sep 2009: Up to 142 civilians die in Kunduz province when hijacked fuel tankers are bombed.

May 2009: US says 26 civilians died in raid in Farah province; Afghan officials say 140 died.

Nov 2008: Raid on a Kandahar village destroys a housing complex leaving nearly 40 civilians dead.

Aug 2008: Up to 90 people, including 60 children, killed in Herat province, UN says.

July 2008: Raid in Nangarhar mistakenly kills about 50 civilians at a wedding party.

PBUT

Source: BBC

What do you expect when most of the ruling elite have degrees in law not history. The paradox of this is that most of the laws drafted by these “lawyers” are so badly drafted that you can drive a coach and horse through the loopholes. I dont know who to vote for anymore they are all so tied up in the propoganda of war in order to control the population and cling onto power absolute that any vote would be wasted. Bring our brave boys home and stop this stupid wasteful war so no more British or Afghan mothers will loose their sons or daughters. I just dont understand why the political class of all sides cant see that being there makes the home grown terrorism threat so much worse. I am sure this whole western Jihad against the bogeyman Al Qaeda is to get Bin Laden for something he knows or has relating to the Soviet days of Afganistan whatever it is I am hope it is worth all the lives lost and the turmoil it has caused. Gladstones words are as relevant now as they were then. The whole problem has now shifted to Pakistan we have to face it we cant win this one lets all just try and live in peace and stop killing each other.

Isn’t saying Afghans or anyone else have the right to defend themselves a criminal offense here?

I think people have been put in prison with very long sentences for saying that.

They use the Glorification and incitement laws.

Uzbekistan is really useful to America and the UK because they can get whatever inteligance they want from it.

If they want to prove a nation they want to invade has WMD, or a critic is a terrorist all they have to do is speak to Karimov who will round up some farmers, torture them in to giving Europe and America whatever information they need.

So how do you get rid of a uppity Muslim journalist? Have Karimov boil a farmer to death, to make him sign a document to state the Journalist who the farmer had never heard of belonged to a organisation that the farmer never heard of.

and this is how Iraq was invaded.

But the point is the way the war in Afghanistan is framed. It isn’t framed as an occupation; this much is obvious. We aren’t there to establish a bridgehead in a strategically important part of Asia giving potential access to vital sources of oil and gas; that would be too complex and sound like blatant imperialism.

The war is framed, by the politicians and a compliant media/priesthood, as a war of necessity, a war to bring hope and freedom to the long-suffering people of Afghanistan. It’s all framed as a crusade for freedom, where we help the Afghans and at the same time help ourselves.

The kids my wife teaches believe they are going to Afghanistan to help, that it’s a job worth doing. Of course it’s all propaganda, but it’s powerful propaganda – a crusade for freedom.

The big problem with our type of society is that the state/system’s capacity for spreading propaganda is, unparalleled in history. Control the mind, and the body will follow.

Breaching this wall of propaganda is a collosal task, and it won’t happen until the entire system begins to collapse under its own weight. This could take a long time.

The fact is, we don’t live in democracy anymore. We live in a kind of inverted democracy, a form of oligarchy, where the rich rule, the rich have the power over our lives.

Only when the bloated state, market democracy, begins to rupture and split apart, will there be space to wedge in alternative ideas and concepts. Times like these come rarely, when the ruling elites grip on power weakens for whatever reason, and others have a chance of wrenching power away from the elite, society enters a period of flux and possibilities open up for change.

Nice piece writerman; on a slightly optimistic note, we have witnessed a crack in the oligarthy rather than a rupture, which was rapidly filled with hard earned notes from the peoples pockets. We have won back a major chord from the elite and that opens up a possibility for change.

Amazing quote. You’re right, no pubic figure would dare state the bleeding obvious like that now. Reminds me of the time Cherie Blair was crucified for having the temerity to suggest that suicide bombers might be acting out of a feeling of hopelessness.

We have diminished as a nation and ‘frivolous’ wars are ‘de rigeur’ in the name of ‘terror.

Terror, with its roots in 1997 when Binyamin Netanyahu granted Mossad agents the job to assassinate Khaled Mash’al in Amman, Jordan. They used forged Canadian passports from Shawn Kendall, 28, and Barry Beads, 36. Chased by a bodyguard, who despite being hit by a blunt object that caused a deep gash, managed to force the Mossad agents to the ground. The episode triggering outrage and a huge diplomatic crisis with Jordan. Danny Yatom, the then Mossad chief, was forced to quit. Ephraim Halevy, a quietly spoken former Londoner, was brought back from retirement to clear up the mess.

Again for the recent Dubai hit, Netanyahu gave his authorisation, in effect signing Mabhouh’s death warrant. The hit may hoxever turn out to be far more damaging ?” not least because the political and diplomatic context has changed in the last decade. Israel’s reputation has suffered an unprecedented battering, reaching a new low during last year’s Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip. The “midrasha” has ‘fucked up’ badly this time and Meir Dagan, the 64-year-old head of the agency, will get – a severe bollocking.

Israel in the same vein of ambiguity offered to it’s nuclear arsenal, is refusing to confirm or deny any involvement in the Dubai incident and the dumb ass main media are playing ball to cool the situation.

Mossad is murder by stealth and deception and this ‘special operation’ activity palls to insignificance compared to its operations in Iraq and more recently Iran, where the trick is to assassinate key nuclear scientists and undermine nuclear security by subverting dissident Iranians to assist in sabotage and murder. According to my own sources this a priority above any work to incite riots.

Israel excels in psychological warfare and is adept at false-flag operations meticulously planned and executed with cunning and ruthlessness.

If we admire this modus operandi then Israel will continue to steal land and expand in the West Bank with impunity. Even anger is not good enough as witnessed by the disregard for the massacre in Gaza and mute concern for Obama’s ‘intolerable’ statement on the occupation.

Mossad continues to recruit Farsi speaking men and women as intelligence officers and others include code-breakers (top job), researchers, analysts, security officers and wireless/aerial engineers.

I wonder how many more passports are forged for false-flag operations and how many more ‘patsies’ are used to fuel the Israeli ‘war on terror.

Mark my words the mad-man Netanyahu controls Israels nuclear arsenal and the Zionist routed bastard has vowed “Shema Yisrael” – pre-emption to guarantee the survival of Israel.

Sources:

Guardian

Wiki

BiBi reports

Washington Post,

Mark, ‘sahih’.

The turning moment for me when a politician could no longer be an analyst, moralist or truth-speaker, was when Mrs Thatcher stated that market forces were the only motivating factor in people. I was a bookbinding craftsman at the time and quality was no longer a permitted motivation. It was obvious to me even then that paying the bankers extra to motivate them to be honest was rubbish – and it has proved to be fatal.

One lady cannot change the world. She must have been tapping into an already existing moral ‘diminishment’ in the UK. Although Craig doesn’t like toffs, and I agree, they really believed in the mantra of market forces, it has to be said that much of the blame for Mrs Thatcher’s destruction of the UK has to be laid at the door of the former working classes, who followed their example and became New Labour. Now it is normal to refuse to engage in evidence, or analysis or morality of anything except the amount they are paid. In my opinion, this way of thinking does not come from lawyers, but from Mrs Thatcher’s deliberately re-defining morality from the Christian to the secular scale. She got up in pulpit and told us that Christianity was about taking responsibility for your family, NOT your soul.

Like the sexual revolution, the social revolution started by Mrs T. has created a sociopathic nightmare. This freedom has brought me personally freedom to discover and practise Islam. It has also brought the War on Terror which is a war on spiritual vision. God help us!

So I’m not complaining. But I think that the diminishment is collective and universal and cannot be attributed to one political party, or even a particular nation. We are approaching the vortex of Qiyama, the Day of Judgement, and we may as well reconcile ourself to the idea that truth, analysis and morality are going to be commodities in increasingly short supply world-wide.

As Mark says, ” if we admire this modus operandi “…

I think this way of thinking is already part of our culture, the world of political spin and TV soaps.

I can only imagine that the BBC told Craig’s story to blacken New Labour in front of the election.

In my opinion, Islam is correct to edit out the disaster of rule by the majority, instead of the wise, the rule of man-made laws, onesidedly applied and sexual temptation. But when you tell people that this is the cure for the way of thinking Mark describes, they say ‘that’s going too far, there’s another way.’

Mark my words, it isn’t going too far. It really is the only way. Cruising along and going with the flow IS in reality to allow the situation that so appalls us to succeed and take over. Anger is not enough, as Mark says. Islam is not angry, it is putting on an armour of protection against our deadliest enemies. That’s as close as I get to shoving Islam down your throats. You decide. Cameron said that Islam was like Hitler, forcing people to obey their rules. As soon as New Labour falls he will be ready to pick up the flag of Zionism and spike it into Palestine.

What do you mean that there are certain things you can’t divulge?

In this context, if Charlie didn’t want to do it, then he must have been put under pressure by someone else. And it also means that no MP can ever tell this simple truth about Gaza.

In what way is that something that cannot be divulged?

It needs to be divulged, otherwise we’ll be in this war on terror nonsense for eternity.

Hi Herbie,

Simply that I was told something on condition I didn’t tell anyone. I gave my word. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t know either.

Cheers Craig

That’s fair enough. I hadn’t considered that possibility.

But. If the Lib-dems, in opposition, will carry out initiatives that are not theirs, against their own wishes, for reasons that can’t be spoken of … would they behave like that in government ? Why would we vote for people who can’t make their own decisions ?

I think they’re all in that boat.

Peter Oborne did a very interesting prog on the pro-Israeli Lobby in Britain, uncovering their tactics. Everything from carrots like financial support and free trips, to sticks like threats and boycotts.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text

Funnily enough, Jenny was castigated by a committee of the House of Lords for pointing out this influence.

Looks like the British political and media class have something of a dark Faustain pact with these extreme right wing Israeli supporters.

No wonder we’re in such a mess.

They’re quite a nasty bunch, even attacking and threatening Jews who don’t support their activities.

Mark Golding

‘Mossad is murder by stealth and deception.’

Mark, thank you for your boldness in what you wrote. USUKIS took control of Iraq by stealth and deception and false flag operations, igniting a civil war and bringing a country to despair.

The UK has always done the same, e.g. Northern Ireland. I question whether Craig really knew anything about the dirty clandestine history of this country when he joined the FCO. The activities of the US and IS in the last decade have shone an unpleasant torch on the history of our own country. Tony Blair’s participation in Bush’s colonial crusades have raked up bitter memories which in my opinion would have been far better forgotten after the second World War. I don’t know why he couldn’t learn the lesson of history, that even the most powerful empires can fall. London and the UK cities were on fire, but we were given a second chance to mend our ways, respect our own citizens and respect our partners abroad.

Why did he want the UK to be a BIG player? Presumably because he didn’t know anything about the dirty reality of being a superpower. New Labour took us sleepwalking down the Zionist’s dirty war against Islam, for no conceivable benefit to this country, except the kick-backs to politicians.

In his new book, the disgusting Mark Urban revels in the incompetence of the British Army in Iraq in a war which had no legitimacy, or morality or purpose. Praise be to God we are no longer the vicious killing machine of our history. As for the post-war colonialism which Craig is reporting from Ghana, these dinosauric attitudes of exploiting third world countries should be prosecuted. They stir up the shame of our colonial past, which would be far better left alone.

Good quote Craig.

Oh yes indeed we are certainyl diminished.

The shower of incompetents and criminals now “running”(into the ground) this country are despicable.

The trouble with the Gladstone quote is that that is what it is, a quote. I went to Westminster School with the sons of diplomats and politicians and it was perfectly clear to me that the history and modern languages they were studying was to enable them to serve up the same old British hypocrisy for another generation. This country should be put on the compost heap, allowed to rot down, and spread as an example of evil tyranny for other nations NOT to follow.

The fine words of diplomats and politicians have not succeeded in deterring the evil actions of my generation. In fact they have become exponentially worse. We are an evil, grasping military machine which is camouflaged by the fine words of duplicitous statesmen, and we always have been.

The reason why the battle of the Bradford election described in the play resulted in 17,000 votes to Jack Straw and 2,000 to Craig, is because my Muslim brothers have seen it all before. I’m not even remotely saying that Craig is equivalent to Straw, but without the bribes. I’m saying that the Muslim community remains unconvinced of the ability of an Englishman of even the highest integrity to deliver anything except injustice, war, torture and poverty on the actual ground.

This cynicism is re-inforced today by the propaganda of the BBC about the altruism of our presence in Afghanistan.

‘If they resisted, would you not have done the same?’ Certain countries do shelter asylum seekers who have resisted oppression, but in this country asylum is conditional on renouncing that resistance. You may stay here provided that you completely accept our rape of Iraq or Palestine or Somalia, or Pakistan. You may protest with fine words and demonstrations, but the second you confirm your words by action, you are clapped in jail or sent home.

Our fine words on Craig’s blog remind me of the neo-classical age. ‘Nymph of this grot…..and somewhat loudly sweep the string.’ Our leaders have locked us into a sentimental fantasy in which even if Gladstone was right, it is his rightness that is causing the problem. It is just a waking dream in the violent and bankcrupt reality of UKUSIS brutality.

Good piece of work Craig–the quotation is most apt.

In Gladstone’s day the Zionist had little power and it was mainly British Imperialist adventurers, who started wars for profit–see the Boer war 1899–1902, for an especially good example.

Nowadays, “Corporate” globalism means military business throughout the world for war, reconstruction and markets. See how closely Halliburton follows the carnage and chaos of the war train. The added cherry is subjection of nations to capitalist elites.

You know that one billion pounds a week Gordon Brown is spending extra for the Afghan surge. Did he get a thrill? Was it worth it? Don’t they do virtual reality invasions for bloodthirsty politicians on their last legs?

“I said ‘get me President Bush on the phone’. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn’t care. ‘I need to talk to him now’. He got off the podium and spoke to me.”I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour.”

I was well aware of the influence in the US, but totally naive about the extent of it in the UK, even after seeing Peter Oborne’s Dispatches on Channel 4

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/16/israel-friends-lobby-uk-politicians

I now find out more about the detail of high level UK political decisions, even including personal letters from the likes of someone mentioned above from Israeli websites, where they are bragging about their power and influence.

Not only that, but I now find that my own MP is not a Friend Of “Any other Country In The World”, but is right up there near the top of the bleedin Tree.

At least a founder member had the guts to resign, but only because he was being hounded for one word of criticism, and he still sucks up to them even after resigning.

The whole thing makes me puke.

Not only has my Country been betrayed, but I feel personally betrayed.

There is no one to vote for, and you cannot say a word, or you get bent over and shafted.

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/

Tony

John. ‘In Gladstone’s day, the Zionist had little power…’

Okay, in the Victorian era Jewish hopes of recapturing Palestine are only a dream, a project in the planning, which would necessitate the breaking up of the Ottoman Caliphate, the real purpose of World War I.

In the meantime what about those British Imperialist adventurers? Were they really inspired by greed and patriotism?

I think there’s a case for highlighting a double entendre in Craig’s extract from Gladstone – as he pornographises his audience with the sexual excitement of vulnerable women, fleeing from the security of their Muslim fortified dwellings, while their menfolk are held down under vastly superior British fire-power. The same pornography that we saw in Iraq at the hands of US soldiers, of humiliating the Muslims by raping their women, sons and daughters under overwhelming siege.

Tony, forget the websites of Zionist greed and power. What about the websites that highlight the British troops’ triumph as they force their way into Iraqi households, and force their menfolk to agree while they rape their women in turns?

And here is Gladstone, bastard-hypocrite of his age, masturbating his audience with crusading glory over the weakness of the enemy, the ease of capturing the spoils of lust, AND AT THE SAME TIME, being a pillar of Victorian morality in front of his Queen and country.

Muslims do not build up massive weapons systems and nuclear arsenals like the West, because unlike the West they are not planning to overrun their neighbours and the rest of the world. Their defence in the last resort is hastily improvised roadside bombs.

As I say, the wars of the last decade with the internet have shone an unwelcome light on war. The victims of British aggression never forgot, but the British themselves never got to hear, about the sexual humiliation of Muslims committed in war. ( except recent revelations about British treatment of African slaves ) This speech of Gladstone’s is evidence that politicians of the time knew what was going on under the surface of Victorian hypocrisy. Of the two, I think I prefer Jack Straw.

Morning Campers. Anyone around?

Just listened to Economics Professor Neil Ferguson on Radio 4, who mentioned the monopoly of power through banking by the Rothschilds in the post war financial crises of the 1820′s.

He said that the debt crises were solved by the industrial revolution and the growth of the empire.

Is that what Blair and Brown were planning when they signed up to Iraq and Afghanistan? Is it not the case that the UK has put its trust in military and technological expansion?

Let me tell you, my Gas and Electric bills last quarter were £35 and £45 respectively, because I live in a small house and I benefit from my neighbours’ central heating. There is no future in wasteful expansion of human accommodation and transport, unless you can get some cheap oil to heat yourself and whizz round the world. The future is insulation, which Gordon Brown has consistently refused to invest in, along with idiot Hilary Benn. Why have they taken us to war instead of attending to the crises in hand?

I leave the Why?s to my 20-something son, because he always regrets asking the question why?, because his ear gets bent even more.

“I can only imagine that the BBC told Craig’s story to blacken New Labour in front of the election.”

I think that New Labour have done a good enough job of that themselves, without the BBC’s assistance.

I just listened to the play. Very moving, but ultimately uplifting. It was right to make a stand and to follow your heart Craig.

Maybe the human rights group Reprieve will have some success in bringing the government to justice?:

http://www.reprieve.org.uk/2010_02_23_Reprieve_legalaction_government

Anno

“I think there’s a case for highlighting a double entendre in Craig’s extract from Gladstone – as he pornographises his audience with the sexual excitement of vulnerable women, fleeing from the security of their Muslim fortified dwellings, while their menfolk are held down under vastly superior British fire-power. The same pornography that we saw in Iraq at the hands of US soldiers, of humiliating the Muslims by raping their women, sons and daughters under overwhelming siege”

I think that is a completely crazy interpretation. Gladstone was speaking to a female audience. He was summing up a picture of fleeing women and children as anti-war activists quite rightly do.

Anno, you seem always to want to see all non-Muslim figures as always persecuting Muslimsgures, even when, as Gladstone was, they are very plainly trying to help. What he meant was what he said – a psycho-sexual anti-Muslim subtext exists only in your own head. Yours is not a healthy view – kind of the obverse of Islamophobia and with just as much potential for being ugly.

anno–Yes

“In the meantime what about those British Imperialist adventurers? Were they really inspired by greed and patriotism?”

Again Yes–although patriotism was merely the oil of the day to make rape of countries more acceptable.

Your fixation with the sexual is mystifying and doesn’t provide the incentive for death and destruction as a reward.

No war today makes any sense, except to those, who plan to be the last ones standing amongst the deserts and world resource shortages, which are increasing through corporate greed and capitalism, as a monopoly ideology.

The important power areas of finance, politics and media are predominantly Zionist controlled, throughout the main countries of the western world–this allows us to watch a 22-day massacre of Gaza’s Palestinians by Israelis, without appreciable UN or western objection, despite the incredible cruelty and such overwhelming odds (see also Lebanon 2006). Israel continues expanding into the West Bank and East Jerusalem and continues daily persecution of Palestinians, without hindrance from US-UK-EU-UN. What more proof is required for the Zionist New World Order and subjugation of those not allegedly “chosen of God”?

Quite a good article here, by Richard Keeble, Professor of Journalism at the University of Lincoln, which amongst other things provides a fairly comprehensive list of alternative news sites from around the world:

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/10/100120_the_future_of.php

@anno – you touched on the reasons for Craig’s loss against Jack Straw, in the context of muslims. However I do think it is important for you not to put “your brothers” on a pedestal. At the time, Craig made it clear that although he was pro-immigration, if elected he would not guarantee automatic asylum to members of muslim constituents families; meanwhile, it was said at the time that Jack Straw was willing to be much more open to doing so. So, despite the destruction in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gaza, plenty of your brothers voted for Straw anyway, despite his substantial responsibility for the British war and propaganda machines.

Craig and John quite rightly take you to task for your persistent view that all non-muslims are anti-muslim. I criticised this perspective of yours at length in “Blood on the Comic Opera” but, although you replied, you failed to respond substantively to any of the points I put to you.

All of which makes me wonder: are you here to have a conversation, and to listen to other peoples’ views so yours might be shaped accordingly, or are you here just so you can insist that all non-muslims are racist?

Jon

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Let’s see a series of massive demonstrations before the election DEMANDING that the war in Afghanistan STOP. This would reshape the election agenda. Otherwise it is obvious that the people of the UK don’t give a …

Craig

It is not my view that is unhealthy. It is war that is unhealthy. Three generations after the second world war and the people of this country are happy to look up from their sandwiches and agree with The Sun that violent and uncontrolled aggression against Muslim countries is fine.

I am just observing the facts of war, which the rest of the country would prefer to forget.

Anno -

Of course I would agree with that. But Gladstone’s open campaigns aganst “Jingoism” also agreed precisely with your proposition. You are right in the general, but it doesn’t justify suspicion of every non-Muslim. There are millions of anti-war non-muslims in the UK.

“Muslims do not build up massive weapons systems and nuclear arsenals like the West”

Well pardon me, but that’s not what the Pakistani powers-that-be were saying 25 years ago. Or what they’ve done since.

This makes me wonder if perhaps, just possibly, Muslims are not all the same as each other, with only one opinion among the lot of them ?

“The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Let’s see a series of massive demonstrations before the election DEMANDING that the war in Afghanistan STOP. This would reshape the election agenda. Otherwise it is obvious that the people of the UK don’t give a …”

Why do you make this a one-way deal ? If you won’t believe in what “we” want (I was under the impression you’re one of the people of the UK yourself, am I wrong ?) unless you see massive demonstrations, why doesn’t it take massive demonstrations in favour of war to make you believe “we” want it ?

When I was demonstrating against the upcoming invasion of Iraq, there was actually a counter-demo. On the basis of the numbers there, there were something like fifty people against the invasion for every one in favour.

If you mean, people are prepared to let it continue … yes, I agree, we haven’t been able to put a stop to it.

@anno:

> Let’s see a series of massive demonstrations before the election

> DEMANDING that the war in Afghanistan STOP.

I’d love to see that, but in one of our previous exchanges, I pointed out lots of reasons why the perfect electoral engagement does not happen in practise. And on that occasion too, you failed to respond to any of the points – I seem to make lots of interesting points to you, only for you to subsequently talk about something else!

I paraphrase here what I said previously: perfect civic engagement would be great, but:

* some people become disenfranchised because they see that politicians rarely give substantial power to the electorate, or that some politicians are just in it for their own personal enrichment;

* some people have their own, real, genuine problems, and cannot afford to take on other peoples’ problems too;

* some people absorb the “bad news agenda” from the television and suffer “compassion fatigue” from overdosing upon it;

* the media environment provides the subconscious perspective that other people’s suffering is somehow virtual, because we don’t see blood on our screens, and the worst impacts of atrocities are censored from our delicate eyes;

* a sometimes racist media propagandises against the suffering of foreigners, and lobbies for an exaggerated recognition of the suffering of Britons;

* some people are not particularly bright, and they view “politics” as too complicated.

And so the list goes on. Sure, some people are specifically selfish, and we should take them to task for it, but other people who are otherwise generous with the people they have around them are somehow disconnected from suffering many hundreds of miles away. They are human, and you should give them some space for their concomitant failures. Yes, we need massively better civic engagement in this country, but that our civic engagement is poor does not make the Briton anti-muslim. Indeed, there is plenty of non-muslim suffering around the world, but our nation of Britons are not out shouting on the streets for them either, unfortunately!

> It is not my view that is unhealthy. It is the war that is unhealthy.

We agree on your second statement, but you should be able to recognise that a variety of your views are seen as unhealthy by some readers here. In this case, the view that all non-muslims support an anti-muslim crusade is as daft as the idea that Gladstone’s antiwar speech was really about enjoying anti-muslim violence.

That all said, I will repeat for your reassurance that we agree on much, and that you should not take great offence at my disagreements with you. But some of your perspectives are, in my humble view, skewed, and I think you would do a great service to yourself by looking at them with fresh eyes.

Jon

Okay, all the people of the UK are let off the hook. What about their representatives in parliament who are paid to think about these things.

The point I am trying to make is that the only thing that counts is peace on the ground. Rhetoric doesn’t count. Gladstone gives a speech to a bunch of women, in which female distress is portrayed in a pointless military campaign. It doesn’t matter if he is pacifist or not, UK plc has never delivered peace, because of the Falklands factor. IT’S OUR OIL. WE FOUND IT. BACK OFF OR GET BOMBED.

Gladstone’s speech is as much a massive dog-turd of hypocrisy as Tony Blair’s 45 minute bombs from Saddam Hussain. What actually happens is totally different from what is proposed. Our politicians are like rabbits mesmerised by the headlights of an oncoming car. They never think, collectively ‘What a load of bollocks. Not having that. We’ll show you if you think you can get away with that rubbish.’

They think, ‘How very inconvenient that our leader is demanding our loyalty to a very unjust cause. Oh dear, I might get sacked if I don’t do what I’m told.’

I’m sorry to disillusion those who foster admiration for fine words and fine ideals. Radio 4′s Moral Maze presenter said that we live in a post-ideological age. When did the UK ever have an ideological age? As rh points out above, we had an age of idealism, inside an amoral system.

The British people share some of that forgotten idealism, inside the amoral system, and take it no further than that. Solid hypocrisy, as long as it is solid, like Blair and the Chilcot Inquiry, is actually approved of. But solid hypocrisy with a veneer of idealism is not a legitimate substitute for running our lives or our country on ideological principles.

It appears to outsiders that the British people don’t care too much about the wars and their consequences, because they have failed through the ages to insist on having a political system that reflects THEIR beliefs and views. And I begin to agree with them. And our reputation in the world is undergoing fatal change.

As you know, I believe that we have been hijacked by zionist bankwers for the last thousand years. I’ve got to the stage of thinking’ ‘Either they go, or I go.’ because I can no longer tolerate what is being done by my government in my name at their behest. When they have finished using us, they will drop us, bankcrupt morally and financially and say like Satan: ‘We didn’t force you to do these bad things. You did them of your own free will.’

in turmoil

If you stay in a country that violates the sovereignty of successive Muslim nations and you are a Muslim, you are in exactly the same position as a condoning spectator of the slave trade. Adieu, adieu,adieu, adieu. I can no longer stay with you. I’ll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree. I can’t stand hypocrisy. La La.

rh,

That was a completely Brilliant Post.

Thank You

Tony

“It appears to outsiders that the British people don’t care too much about the wars and their consequences, because they have failed through the ages to insist on having a political system that reflects THEIR beliefs and views”

That, I can agree with you.

But remember, history isn’t finished.

‘post-ideological age’, yeah yeah yeah. The End Of History, oh sure. People have been pushing and fighting for more say in what their rulers get up to for a long time. Of course there are people telling us there’s no more to be done. You don’t have to believe them.

Perhaps they get their own way a bit less than they have done at various other periods of the past ? More people get to vote for an MP than used to be the case, even if the MP doesn’t do much good. But there are people pushing in the other direction too, you know ? People who expect to have things their own way don’t give that up for free, any more than turkeys volunteer for Christmas.

There _are_ a lot of people horrified at what’s being done in their name. And there are people who actively wanted it, and made it happen, as we learnt in the winter of 2002. And a lot of people just plain not paying very much attention; because they have more urgent concerns, because it’s upsetting and they can’t see what to do about it so they don’t like to think about it, whatever. You’re right, the entire country is not unanimously of the opinion that it must be stopped now. What did you expect, this is a perfect country ? The government does nothing except faithfully execute the wishes of the ordinary people ? I recommend, believe less of the opinions on offer from the media.

There are some great pieces of analytical work here–passionate and sincere, especially from rh, Jon and anno. As an atheist, from a Methodist teaching, I sense in the writings of rh and Jon, the overwhelming frustration of the Nazarene Jew Jesus, towards the ruling Priests of the Temple. The latter were happy to compromise with Roman dominion in order to continue their trade and business. Naturally, Jesus preached a dangerous philosophy, in much the same way as Socrates–and both were put to death.

The British working people have, for hundreds of years, been inveigled and bullied by social elites–from barons of the middle ages, through 18th and 19th century Squirearchy to the present-day “Corporate” MPs, installed under a bogus voting franchise. It doesn’t take much figuring to conclude that their interests over the last thirty years has been markedly for big business and their own advancement to Company Boards–the international Market, above the welfare of people and the Nation. Ex-PM “Bliar” has been a prime example of treachery–a palpable Faustus, who signed away all scruples in blood.

Most working people have been fairly described in those posts mentioned. Many would-be “influential” people hold positions in the private and public sector, where they fear losing their jobs, or promotion, if they speak frankly and act on conviction.

The cost of change now, would involve many personal sacrifices and much austerity to implement, although mass demonstrations around Westminster would be an encouraging start.

In the meantime, I personally hope that, the likes of Craig Murray, gain greater strength and evince more informative posts through this medium, until it seems the natural thing, for people to protest vehemently against the mercenary business-nature and destructiveness of present wars.

The Christian Gospels say ‘ You are to be perfect’. Which means primarily that you put your anger into neutral gear when you hear the bankers’ bonuses being justified by their continuing down the gambling road that has finished our economy, or racism from BNP rottweiller owners at work, or fellow Muslims who earn a lot more than you on benefits, who refuse to pay for the work to be done according to the proper regulations.

The mosque has got red insulation tape round twisted cores of the main incoming cables, and they refuse as a community to get the problem sorted. Monumental ignorance from every side.

“Who are we saving the Afghan people from? From the Taliban for a corrupt government that refuses be scrutinised by international observers” one Afghan M.P. observed. Yes we are kicking hell out those who follow an ideology of perfection, same as our own tradition, in favour of a dictator Karsai who is ready to transform himself into a Karimov or Blair.

I had an old Vauxhall Carlton that accelerated to nearly 100 m.p.h when the pedal got stuck. That certainly wasn’t faulty software in the controls. There is a massive cyber war going on between the west and its competitors,to break into software and to neutralise the elctronics that drive things like murderous drones. When the Muslim armies drive forward over the West’s puppet defences, the Karsais and the Musharrafs and Saudi Royals, the UKUSIS presidents will be madly pushing their nuke buttons and nothing will happen because their codes have been cloned.

I used to have a Vauxhall Astra, the engine of which used to cut out at random, though usually on a motorway.

OK, Anno, you’re waiting for Musliim armies and potential nuclear war. I feel, despite the hysteria generated by the far right about ‘Muslim armies’, you may have a long wait. Nevertheless, I’m afraid I’m not cheered by your assertion that the bombs will be prevented from going off by ‘cloned codes’.

Since you’ve ended up agreeing that the people of this country are not largely in favour of these invasions, is there not something positive you can do in the meantime? Helping impoverished OAP’s? Fostering links between community groups? Making films? Perhaps you do this kind of thing already?

PS Do you give two hoots about the Tibetans? I wanted to ask Tony this too.

technicolour

It was said to me by a Muslim friend that the people of this country were secretly in favour of these invasions. I love my country and its people’s idealism one million times more than Gordon Brown who is trying to crush the idealism of Islam in Iraq and Afghanistan for his Zionist banking masters.

I decided to put my friend’s views to this forum in order to clarify his challenge in my own mind. The Muslims in this country have made a pact with the devil in exchanging exemption from many illegal activities,e.g. working while on benefits, lying to obtain extra mortgages, having more than one home and not declaring their assets to the benefits system…. in exchange for delivering votes to the Labour party in the inner cities.

This has stirred up a sense of injustice which manifests itself as racism amongst the enourmously tolerant British people. I believe that this is a carefully made plan by our Zionist masters to cause resentment against Islam, in order to forward their War on Islam agenda. I know that you personally think that all religion is to blame.

Yes, I could do social work again, because there is absolutely nothing in the electrical field. No, I am not remotely interested in the Tibetans. I can’t see how cloistering males in monasteries and reciting yongyongyongyongyongyongyongyong all day relates to my living God, the God of Moses and Abraham.

You are right that we have lost our moral centre. Gladsotne won an election, against the odds & against the wishes of the great & good of both parties by campaigning against our neutrality during Turkis massacres in Bulgaria. But the Turks were not 1/2 as barbaric as the drug lords, pimps & organleggers our government quite knowingly went to war to assist in what was openly a campaign of genocide.

It may be the fault of the media. During Gladstones campaign he did numerous hours long speeches to packed halls of ordinary working class people, who did nopt have the cynicism or realpolitik of the ruling classes & thought genocide something to be opposed. Nowadays a few seconds soundbite on TV reaches far more people & that is all the media will allow. Indeed for anybody who doesn’t tow the official line, be it Tony Benn or Nick Griffin, or somebody who doubts the catastrophic warming lie, all they can expect is to be the drowned out victim of a lynching.

The problem is that the cynical, not to say obscene, murderous & genocidal subhuman filth that makes up our ruling class, everybody at the BBC & almost all journalists have a grasp on the mass media that never exiosted then & are able to censor the fact that they personally are deliberately participating not only in Nazi atrocities but in the deliberate dissection of living human beings to steal their body organs.

If Gladstone bhad had such evidence to put before public audiences in his day the people would, rightly, have hung the rulers from the lamposts.

I don’t hold with the Zionist conspiracy theory myself

Zionism is an invented Ideology, much the same as Jihadism or Communism and all built for a purpose.

Zionism takes shape in the Pale of Russia when rumours of vast reserves of Middle Eastern oil, brought to Europe by ‘archaeologists’ who use dynamite to search for ‘ancient treasure’ (seismic archaeologists that is), begin to emerge and gathers momentum when, finally, the internal combustion engine is perfected. At last there is a use for all that oil in the ME, the exploitation of that resource means untold wealth to the Oil men and the promise of global domination to the Empire builders, the rest as they say is history.

As for the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, BTW it doesn’t matter to the oil men which side wins in the first WW so long as the resource falls into their hands, so they back both sides. The Axis expected a short war punching through the Balkans to link with and dominate the Ottomans and finish the Berlin/ Baghdad railway, the Allies meanwhile ‘unite’ the Arabs (while it suits them), beat the Ottomans and the Axis and get the ME prize, and global domination ensues.

This is not a clash of civilisations, the ruling class are Machiavellian, it’s all about divide and conquer. If the people who lived on the land where the oil was were Buddhist, then the clash would be against the ‘evil godless yong yong monks’. There is no such thing as a Zionist banker, bankers have only one god, as soon as the oil runs out then so will Zionism. The function of Israel is to divide the Arabs and ensure instability in the area, that way you can sell huge quantities of arms to the protagonists and ensure their development is retarded, so that the oil wealth they might one day possess and that might pose a real threat is mitigated in a huge and very profitable waste. Currently they’re hoping to create a new cold war in the ME.

The way to combat divide and conquer is to put your humanity before any ideology and follow natural law, i.e. do no harm, otherwise we (most of humanity) will remain constantly split and the ruling class will continue on their merry destructive way trailing suffering and injustice in their wake. If you say: first you’re human being and then a Muslim or whatever then we are all on common ground and our differences are minor. These natural human values are present in every Abrahamic religion, are built in to most humans and as if you really need to be told, ‘thou shalt not kill’ is the only one you need to live a spiritual life. Obviously if we all actually followed that natural law, then war is impossible is it not?

Thanks, rh, interesting on history, conclusions seconded and thirded. Anno, you really should read about the sufferings of the Tibetans, and the Falun Gong. Nothing to do with Zionism, or Muslims, I’m sorry to say, but without such basic knowledge, you and others are arguing in a vacuum.

rh

yep, Richard Lion-Heart was probably thinking along the same lines as yourself: ‘better get over to Palestine quick before the oil runs out and I lose my sponsorship deal’

technicolour

yep, a vacuum of false belief – that was my intention actually.

You say, “Anyone who suggested today that the Afghans have a right to resist foreign occupation would be drowned out in screams of “Wooton Basset” and the false, flatulent patriotism of newspaper proprietors and editors sat on their well-padded arses in comfortable offices… ”

But you are wrong. There are those saying that Afghans have the right to resist foreign occupation, and they are being drowned out not by screams of “Wooten Basset,” but by screams of “racist, fascist, Nazi” from the likes of NewsCrap (Asian pornographer, Poop Murdoch, prop.), the BBC and all the other false flatulent voices of Britian’s LibLabConKip establishment, who howl with contempt at those who assert the existence of an indigenous people of Britain.

I refer, of course to the British National Party, which with admirable consistency, maintains the right of the Afghans to determine their own future without foreign interference as they demand the right of the British people to determine their own future without interference by the likes of the EU, NATO, the UN and the global governance movement.

rh,

“There is no such thing as a Zionist banker, bankers have only one god, as soon as the oil runs out then so will Zionism. The function of Israel is to divide the Arabs and ensure instability in the area, that way you can sell huge quantities of arms to the protagonists . . .”

How do you assert this–have you proof?

I believe there are Zionist bankers and I believe that, they have recently caused global mischief and chaos in the banking world–though I am very much an outsider and have no access to any evidence, so I have to look elsewhere for some substantiation for my assertions/beliefs.

1. The Iraq war was driven by the USA, with AIPAC and the NeoCons–almost all Zionists.

2. In 2006 the US/UK/UE/UN watched as Israel destroyed the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon, killing thousands of civilians. No appreciable attempt to stop the onslaught was made by the West.

3. In 2006 again, all Palestinians voted for a party to govern. Hamas was the party elected democratically to govern. Israel, ruled by Zionist, had the USA/UK/EU to impose sanctions against them, which divided p

Palestinians and created chaos.

4. In 2009 the Israelis massacred the people of Gaza for 22 days, while the West again did nothing. 1400 died, mainly civilians.

5. We have just seen the result of an international murder of an officer of Hamas, by “strongly-alleged” members of Mossad, yet Israel will not say whether they were behind it or not. This is Israeli hubris of the kind shown against the verdict of Justice Richard Goldstone’s report against Israel over Gaza.

6. We are asked to recognise “Holocaust Day”, discriminatingly apart from other savage acts to all manner of civilian people, during WWII–while Zionists of Israel create similar kinds of torture and death as the Nazis. (see the effects of White Phosphorous and Cluster Bombs on civilian areas).

Israel is contemptuous of the West and the UN.

Never before have I seen the West so mute and acquiescent, at such arrogant and outrageous behaviour by Israel.

WHY?

I condemn utterly the Holocaust, at the hands of Nazis, but lately I’m considering what menace Hitler saw in the power of Zionists, to have been so extreme.

Watching 1948 Israel develop into “The Jewish State of Israel”–with all that these words imply, I begin to see a Frankenstein’s monster, taking over most of what was Arab land, despite the UN and the terms of the British Mandate of 1948.

This is not the will of all Jews–but the deliberation of Zionists, who just now seem to be running the western world.

I would like to be enlightened against these beliefs.