I am one of an age where we were forced to study 20th century wartime history from the 1930′s and 1940′s, which seemed very dull and depressing at the time when I was doing my “O” levels. The period did throw up interesting unanswered questions to debate how sensible Germans must have stood by and watched the Nazis take over control with minimal effective protest. Living through Blair and Bush we have some understanding first hand for ourselves now how hard it is to protest effectively against a profoundly evil war machine prepared to tell any scale of lies and commit atrocities to get what it wants, coincidentally filling wallets along the way.

Moving on to the point I wanted to make, I would say that Zionist Israel’s justificatory pronouncements about their expansions into Palestine and especially the latest into Jerusalem seen from here ring even more resonantly and transparently with the concept of Lebenraum than that of Apartheid.

The presence of the racial divisions and contempt for a ‘lesser’ race in Israel bring obvious resonances with South Africa, as do the hypocrisies of the USA and UK offering seldom if ever anything but unqualified nodding to the eradication of Palestine and the Palestinians. However I would give Lebensraum a close look as well because the model fits the glove more closely.

I would love to see a massive arrival of awkward questions in our run-up to the next election – specifically about the lies of the Middle East carnage and our continuing active participation(s) which both Tories and Labour are avowed to continue with formulaic lies like mynah birds. Sadly, if you are looking for rogue nations, WMD and an “Axis of Evil” we should not be looking so far from home and the forthcoming election should provide some opportunities to open debate before we slump back into parliament’s smug somnolence.

I completely agree with both of you – Craig and Tony. Netanyahu is either a fanatic or else he has no conscience – i’m not sure which.

Norman Finkelstein’s book ‘Beyond Chutzpah’ is one of the best i’ve read. He takes the false history apart by going back to the sources and seeing what they actually say – and what the Israeli propagandists claim they say – and shows up the inconsistencies between what some u-turning historians like Benny Morris find as the facts and the strange conclusions they draw from them.

Zionism is a funny ideology. It claims Judaism is a race when people call them sectarian. And they claim to be a religion when people call them racist. In fact Zionists are both racist and sectarian.

But Zionists are sectarian a religion, and racist without a race.

The majority of Zionists are atheists, but they claim to be Jews so they can be discriminate against Christians and Muslims on religious grounds.

Then they claim they have a racial claim

to the land, when in fact they belong to many different races. Ethiopians who claim to be Jews are Black, Indian who claim to be Jews are Indian and Europeans who claim to be Jews are white.

But none of this matters. What matters is the people who were kicked out of their homes still have the deeds to the land. they were never paid for it and they never choose to give it back. In this applies to pre-1967 just as much as it does to post.

International law means nothing. It is ignored by the nations who writ it.

This bit of toilet paper called international law still meant they carved Israel out of the middle east kicking out the people who lived there to fill it with Europeans.

So why would international law mean anything to remove post 67?

What is different about the Palestinians

who were kicked out post 48, and post 67?

So what is so different to the Zionists who are living in land stolen post 48, and post67?

Anyone who thinks the solution is going to come from the nations that established Israel due to an election can hold their breaths waiting until they die. It isn’t going to happen. The solution is going to come from a change of government in the Muslim world. So it is time for Muslims to change their governments the only way it is possible to change them.

The Israelis have been “profoundly wrong” in their treatment of the Palestinians from the outset, and have no claim whatever to Palestine except that arising from violence and genocide, as they have, in moments of honesty, clearly stated from the outset:

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places then we have force at our disposal.

“During the assault we must be ready to strike the decisive blow; that is, either to destroy the towns or expel its inhabitants so our people can replace them.

“The war will give us land. The concept of ‘ours’ and ‘not ours’ are peace concepts, only, in war they lose their whole meaning.

- David Ben Gurion (1937

“What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived. We should demand his blood not from the Arabs of Gaza but from ourselves. . . . Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood.

“We have no solution, you [Arabs] shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads.

“It is not in our hands to prevent the murder of workers… and families… but it is in our hands to fix a high price for our blood, so high that the Arab community and the Arab military forces will not be willing to pay it.

- Moshe Dayan

On one point Dayan has yet to be proved correct. The Israelis keep ratcheting up the price of Jewish blood, but so far the Arabs have continued to pay it.

As for Israel being compared to apartheid, I’ve lost count of the anti-apartheid veterans who visited Israel and declared it to be worse than South Africa at its apartheid height.

Why did we attack Iraq again? Can anyone remember? Whatever the reason was, Israel makes those Iraqis look like a bunch of boy scouts. And between the two, Israeli is so utterly more deserving of having its arse kicked.

http://churchofnobody.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-cease-opposition-government-was-right.html

To say Zionism is racism is an insult to racism.

There isn’t a word for Zionism but maybe Zionism can be used to describe Europeans going to America, killing off the Red man, taking his land, locking him up in reservations to starve, then claiming to be the victim when the red man fires a few arrows just before these Europeans massicre all the women and children. All with the excuse that God gave America to the whiteman, And this is my land!!!

The Native Americans are Palestinians, and if the Palestinians.

That is why the American government love the Zionists and hate the Palestinians.

Israel=America.

And the UK, whichever of the three take power will remain to be a puppet of America=Israel.

There was some Zionist twit called Mencer (former director of Labour Friends of Israel) on BBC World at One yesterday trying to give Ming Campbell a hard time and using classic Tel Aviv propaganda tactics to derail the subject and redefine the purpose of the interview to suit Israel’s case. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00rd8r4/World_at_One_23_03_2010/ (18 minutes in).

Is this the same David Mencer who has now wormed his way into a key job with the Central Office of (Mis)Information?

Alleluya, peace man shalom salaam shalom.

In a secular world, people want secular solutions, but in the case of Palestine it doesn’t work because it is a Holy Land.

It is sacred to the memory of the prophets sent to a tribe, who were instructed NOT to confine their religion to their own race, but to spread their monotheism, Islam. When they were captured by the Babylonians, they returned to Jerusalem speaking Babylonian or Aramaic, and the Babylonians had got monotheism.

Along comes Jesus, peace be upon him, the anointed one, the Messiah, to rejuvenate their religion. They were having a good time. Money was flowing between Asia and Rome, polytheism. Do you know what an Avatar is? It’s a sage who has spent a lifetime studying to be a holy man, who dies, and is believed to return in the form of a new person. That’s what they asked Jesus pbuh: ‘Are you Elijah, returned?’

The question is, not who owns the land, but when will the tribes and the converts to the original religion return to their religion. When they return, they will find that it is now Islam.

Anybody who thinks that the problem can be solved in a secular way, will find that the problems keep coming back like avatars or zombies. You can remove the curse of Allah on the disbelievers easily. Believe in your religion and the prophet of your time, Muhammad may God’s blessings be upon him. Welcome!

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the historical update on the “promised land” and putting some reality into the preposterous Netanyahu claims.

It is sickening to know how much power these Zionists hold over the US/UK and soon to be over EU.

It is time to call their bluff/chutzpah to account and create some balance throughout the western world, as far as their bullying foreign policies affect the US and UK.

As I have intimated before, lately–and without in any way trying to justify Hitler’s barbaric treatment of Jews and the Holocaust–I have come to reason the idea that, Hitler knew more about Zionists plans–and feared their effects on Germany.

Indeed, so obdurate, scheming and ruthless are the ways of modern Zionist leaders of Israel, that one wonders if this approach to foreign cultures hasn’t been tried before–without the benefit of seeing the Jewish State at work.

Hillary Clinton, whilst condemning Israel’s illegal building programme, was at the same time, almost orgasmic in her pledge of American backing for Israel–(no matter what?)

Do you know what I find strange?

It is people on our side celebrating Obama, or brown saying naughty naughty to Israel.

As if it is some sort of voctory, that will mean all stolen homes and land will go back to the people they were stolen from.

This is silly, while the bastards say naughty naughty, they pour money and weapons in to the Israeli millitry, while promising more.

Israel will only be destroyed by an Army, and the army will only invade it after the naughbering countries have a real government instead of these puppet dictators.

They need to be removed, and Muslims need to do the removing.

John,

While I do believe you when you say that you write

“without in any way trying to justify Hitler’s barbaric treatment of Jews and the Holocaust”

What you go on to say about Hitler’s knowledge of Zionist plans is a weird road to tread. Hitler’s views on Jews were not rational, and downright evil.

As for Arsalan’s fantasies of vengeful Muslim armies, I am not of the view that a great deal more death is what the world needs.

It is only the Zionists who say the Muslim Army will be vengeful. That is because they see themselves in others. They behave vengefully when they kick people out of their homes and when they kill babies, so they assume others will behave likewise when power is exchanged from the oppressors to the oppressed.

Don’t buy in to that. When I said Israel will be destroyed, that means the racist system will be destroyed, not that the people will be destroyed. The only ones destroying people are the Zionists.

What I mean by destroy is a reintegration of Palestine in to the region. The invasion is just a pacification of a rebel province, not a genocide. the only ones who are interested in genocide are the Zionists.

The Muslim world have no history of invading lands for ethnic cleansing and resettlement. We have no history of concentration camps and gas chambers.

So don’t assume we will behave like the European powers after victory. Victory will mean we will stop dying, not that we will start killing.

These dictators and kings who now rule Muslim nations are part of the western system, the sooner they are removed and given asylum in the UK, the sooner we will rule by our own system and oppression will end.

The only language Israel understands is a clampdown on trade. And proportional representation – right up the LibDems’ street.

Sadly John is right. 1940′s zionist made overtures to Hitler and his drive to spread his third Reich to all and coming.

There is no dispute about his evilness towards Jews Gypsy’s Homosexuals and those who opposed his dreadfull regime.

It was Yitzak Shamir and Ben Gurion who approached the Nazi’s with the offer to becoming their ‘enforcing arm spreading their rule of law’ in the middle east, no doubt a chancing moment in history that showed how much hardline Zionists felt in line with fascists, enough to espouse their aims and further them in the middle east.

It also can be argued that this was an attempt to introduce the ill gotten Balfour declaration into the Nazi’s vocabular and provide them with an alternative to their mass extermination, a means to stop their ‘Endloesung’.

The two ideologies, as time went on, increasingly had more in common, their loathing for other races/tribes in lands that were supposed to be theirs by the power of historical scriptures, only today we find out that many of these were hearsay or fabrication.

Still the lying by Netanyahu continues. His strong arm tactics might go down well with the bamboozled jewish lobby and Obama might be scared off for now, but he has hit the buffers and his strong responses are nothing but a flight of fancy, hiding his insecurity.

When he says that Obama will not get re-elected again, then that applies to him as well, he will not survive the next election either.

Craig, more death is not what the world needs, but, far from predicting the end of the war on terror here, thats what western powers are planning their contingencies for, and thats what we are going to get.

Now I shall make this my last post for now. I feel that my words are lost.

Nice to have made your aquaintance, ladies and gents, keep happy and healthy.

Don’t go Ingo.

Arsalan

In psychological terms, ‘projection’ is looking at another person and seeing a lot of things you don’t like about yourself in them, without there being any evidence for their existence.

I believe human intelligence is much more able to assess character than modern psychology leads us to believe. For want of another word Christians look at Muslims and see anger and violence and they project onto us the anger and violence that they find in themselves from their own frustrations. Unlike you, I don’t deny that the anger and violence is also present in Muslims. Honesty is the cure. Chritians are deeply subjugated by their religion and their governmental system. Muslims are liberated by their religion but persecuted eternally by crusading envy. Of course they are angry and possibly violent, but not by their own frustrations, but by the frustrations that others have taken out on them.

A Muslim army of today would probably be retributive and murderous, unlike the army of our prophet saw when he entered Mecca. But the army that restores the khilafah will be an army that is supported by the vast majority of Christians Inshallah, when they unite with us to remove the inconcionable excesses of the tyrants that control them.

My only purpose of contributing to this blog, if I’m honest, is to show Christians that we are in solidarity with the righteous ones amongst them. I can’t deny that our anger is scary. When the anger of the Christians at their so called leaders reaches our level, THEN, in a unity of purpose, an army comfortable with itself and united, will destroy the common enemy of tyranny, the Cheneys, Netanyahus, Blairs, Camerons and Browns. Is that an un-Islamic ambition? Is that an unlikely scenario to occur?

By the way, I totally disagree with Craig about Nick Clegg. Yes he has passion but my inner motive detector system informs me that his anger is merely the product of being put through the cold public school education system like me from a tender age, at Westminster School like myself, rather than any passion about real injustices to others. Call me a cynic, tell me I’m projecting. To me he’s a collaborator with the system, a prefect, a spy, a disbeliever and a menace and a pain in the backside. Envy is a terrible thing.

Praise be to Allah, my God didn’t give me leadership of a political party; He gave me Islam. Apart from that I don’t need anything and there isn’t any other way of achieving anything or any change. If you don’t add Islam, it really is just plus ca change…

“Hitler’s views on Jews were not rational, and downright evil”.

Craig, this is not in question.

I am old enough to remember some of the first pictures from Belsen and I was sickened, by what the world had allowed.

Now I see a star rising above a similar evil and the world seems paralysed and indifferent, or afraid to speak out.

You know Israel’s history of aggression, duplicity and hubris, from the inside–and far more accurately than my observations–but if anyone says that, they cannot see parallels between the behaviour of Zionist Israel and Nazi Germany, then I say, they are blind, or wilfully avert their eyes.

A dead child, from white phosphorous, napalm or cluster bombs, suffers the same in any time or situation–and all are accepted in war.

It worries me that, none of the western powers does more than “regret” what The Jewish State of Israel is doing illegally and perpetually–and with impunity.

This leads to the thought WHY?

And why Hitler feared their power, to an extent that, he contrived evil solutions against them.

I know that, this is not so nuanced as you would like–but I have lost patience with pussy-footing politics, which is always charitable at other victims’ expense.

What are western leaders keeping from their populations.

“The only language Israel understands is a clampdown on trade”

I don’t think Isreal can be persuaded to change its ways by a boycott of jaffa oranges. Israel understands two languages: military action and global finance.

“1940′s zionist made overtures to Hitler”

Indeed. See Lenni Brenner’s ‘Zionism in the Age of the Dictators’ for a thoroughly-researched analysis of the whole sickening story.

Anno you are right the Armies under the rulers we have today will behave like that. They are in fact behaving like that right now!

They are behaving like that against Muslims! They slaughter their brothers without mercy to please America and Israel.

I am stating that the cause of this behaviour are the rulers that order them.

When these rulers are removed, that behaviour will be removed.

Soldiers do what they are ordered to do.

Americans torture Muslims Muslims because they are ordered to, and the Armies of Muslim lands torture Muslims for the same reason.

So WHEN we remove our rulers, unite our armies, what they did to us will NOT be repeated on them. Because we will not order our soldiers to shoot their children, like they are doing to our children now.

We are not them, we have never been like them and we will never be like them.

We don’t believe, we have never believed and we will never believe that we are some sort of master race, some sort of chosen people. That is their belief not ours. We don’t believe we are saved. We believe our deeds matter and not just our words. Let me be clear on this, Muslims will never behave like the Zionists. No matter how bad we get we will never do to them what they did to us. The Muslim world has always been a refuge for Jews. There are still some Palestinians and I have met them who remember the Zionists coming to Palestinian as refugees. they remember sharing their food and homes with those people. And they also remember being kicked out of their homes by those same people they helped when Israel was established.

We are a people ordered to feed the poor and house the homeless.

So we will remove our evil rulers, unite under the khilafah, liberate Palestine, then live in peace with the Jews as we have always done. And that’s what we have always wanted. European nations are the ones who wanted genocide against the Jews, Muslim nations have always been a refuge for the Jews.

Netanyahu is a buffoon. Unfortunately he’s also a dangerous buffoon. There are quite a few of them in Israeli politics.

This isn’t just about the Palestinians, though I’ve long pitied their plight in being tied to the fantasies of supremicist and racist Israelis. The real problem for the UK and US is that in linking ourselves to right wing Israeli policy we are poisoning our own political life, both domestically and internationally. Our present crisis is for precisely that reason. There are many, if not perhaps most, political and media figures who are openly working for Israeli interests and not for UK or US interests at all. Some are Zionists, some are bought off and some simply see it as a good career move.

It doesn’t seem to matter to any of these people that Israel holds the US and UK in contempt and will continually abuse the relationship, as we’ve seen again recently in their abuse of UK passports or their insulting the vice president. They’ve done this hundreds of time before. They did it with Bush too when they humiliated Condi Rice and Ehud Olmert laughed about it all.

These are evil scum who hold everyone who is not one of them, in total contempt. It’s the most dangerous terrorist and rogue state on the planet today, and nothing is ever getting any better. It can’t, until we stop tolerating their abuses.

There’s quite a good article about this problem here:

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery03222010.html

And you can read the full text of Peter Oborne’s excellent analysis of the UK Israeli lobby.

Make no mistake. These people are ruthless, mad and dangerous, and are the greatest threat to world peace today.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text

Ingo,

You are much needed here!

Having stayed in Tel Aviv as a guest of an Israeli family, I know that their family system is warm. That’s the irony of the Netanyahus. They are obviously the product of secure homes, but they are acting the part of aggrieved victims. Their performance contrasts with Obama, who can justifiably claim the struggles of his race for his own. There, I said it, a good word for Obama. His health care legislation and his stand against Netanyahu are impressive. If only his activities in Afghanistan and Iraq continued in the same vein.

Ingo, no outgo.

John,

You talk of the power of “these Zionists,” i.e., NetenYahoo and co., over the US/UK, etc, as if Israel somehow rules these greater entities. But this view is surely misconceived.

America is a plutocracy where a handful of people at Goldman Sachs, for example, have vastly more power than, say, 30 million more or less bankrupt Californians (many of whom are literally bankrupt due to the mortgage scams of non other than Goldman Sachs). America’s plutocracy is overwhelmingly Jewish. American Jews are overwhelmingly Zionist. Israel was created and has been directed and bankrolled from the outset by American Zionists. Twenty-three percent of Israel’s Jewish population is American born. Thus, it is not that Israel controls America, but that America and Israel are ruled by the same Zionist cabal.

That there is widespread belief in Israeli control over America, arises from two facts. First, that the settler state cannot survive and continue its program of genocide and expansion without American money and arms, the flow of which cannot be entirely concealed. Second, oligarchic government of the United States depends on outsourcing various unconstitutional and criminal government functions, such as spying on American citizens, bribing members of Congress, e.g., via AIPAC, assassinating American citizens and undertaking false flag attacks on American property and citizens, all of which can be traced back to Israel by anyone paying careful attention to the facts.

Israeli influence over the UK and Europe works the same way, but the Zionists are not apparently in full control, as indicated by Germany’s refusal to bail out Greece and, hence, those like Goldman Sachs who irresponsibly lent Greece money it would be unable to repay. This, and the brilliant multi-billion-dollar mugging of New York hedge funds by Porsche, suggests a new face off between German and Jewish nationalism.

Ingo,

I’d like you to keep contributing, too.

Ingo : I agree, it would be a shame if you went.

“Thus, it is not that Israel controls America, but that America and Israel are ruled by the same Zionist cabal.”

You’re a fucking nut, Alfred. Clearly you don’t understand how America works.

John: “I have come to reason the idea that, Hitler knew more about Zionists plans–and feared their effects on Germany.”

You believe that because you’re an impressionable idiot who’s been reading the primitive literature of the conspiracy nutjobs who other people at this website likewise read.

larries, it’s dinner-time. Are you hungry? Better order a take-away then. Remember to keep all your receipts. It’s Britain, you know, and you’re not a government minister.

Loosen your larynx, ch-chwpteh.

Larry do you get paid per comment? Or are you doing this because you are a sad fat old virgin with no friends?

Anyway, the Larrys have unconditional loyalty to Israel.

Labour, Liberal and Conservative friends of Israel are a bunch of Larrys, their loyalty lies with Israel and not to this country, its people or even their parties.

Loyalty to Israel goes above party politics.

Israel right or wrong

Netanyahu may appear rather brutish, but he’s a seasoned tactician, I doubt very much that he actually believes the romanticised, nationalistic, bullshit he spouts when he deems it useful.

The Israeli historian Shlomo Sands has written an excellent new book called the “Invention of the Jewish People” which is required reading. Sand’s book which was a bestseller in Israel, cuts right to the heart of mythologies surrounding Israel/Palestine and the “creation” of the Jewish people as an ethnically exclusive entity.

Essentially a people, or “volk” seem to invent the history they need to justify their version of history and their special roots and rights to land, especially when the land is disputed territory, and let’s face it, what land isn’t disputed, as usually more than one “volk” lay claim to it.

I would argue that nationlism came before the nation, and the “volk” is an an invention too.

Zionism was an intellectual conceit, a strand of European, romantic nationalism. The absurd idea that every “volk”, in order to express themselves fully as an exclusive “volk” simply had to have their own country, or “holy land.”

In this respect Jewish people are part of a “proud” European tradition, of expansionism and conquest. I mean, if it’s ok for the Americans and the Spanish to conquer most of the Americas, why shouldn’t the Jews be allowed to take as much of the Middle East as they can get their hands on? Arguably they have more “right” to it, than the Europeans do to the Americas.

Hey, Larry the agent provocateur,

I thought I’d mentioned before that if you want to engage in a debate you need an argument, not a expletive.

Great interview with Norman Finkelstein which touches on NetenYahoo’s attempt to justify Israel’s illegal settlements in Arab East Jerusalem. Finkelstein has to be among the most brilliant, honorable and courageous Jews in America today.

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/norman-finkelstein-on-the-aipac-farce/

Ingo – keep posting mate

Larry from St. Louis. You are still embryonic. Grow a little.

Alfred, I don’t know precisely, how the Zionist influence will pan out on the world stage–what I do believe is that, the western powers are so morally and politically weak, that Zionist influence may have a destabilising effect, which will precipitate a war with Iran , against better judgement.

“America is a plutocracy where a handful of people at Goldman Sachs, for example, have vastly more power than, say, 30 million more or less bankrupt Californians . . .”

Exactly that. America is a hotch-potch of so many conflicting ideas that, those with a common goal and are united will dominate–the Zionists.

I am responsible for the Alfred response.

If you people think that the Joooooooooo Zionist are secretly taking over America, you’re even more stupid than I thought.

Granted – they do have a better PR campaign than, say, Syria. But the same can be said of the Bosnian Muslims, as the Serbs were entirely incompetent at pleading their case internationally.

You people are primitive thinkers, as additionally evidenced by the fact that you think that Goldman Sachs has more power than California.

Larry,

Good attempt at an argument. However, no one said Zionists are “secretly taking over America,” or even that all Zionists are Jews. Vice President Biden is outspokenly Zionist as is Hilary Clinton and President Obama, and non of them are Jews.

As for the power of Goldman Sachs, how many billion dollars have they received so far from the American taxpayer, versus the average Californian? And here’s a incredible graphic presentation of Goldman Sachs in Government:

http://www.goldmansachs666.com/2009/10/map-of-goldman-sachs-employees-past-and.html

Click on the boxes and see the boxes within boxes.

John,

I agree that a Zionist-driven attack on Iran is likely. However, I don’t see this as an instance of Zionist influence, so much as the likely action of a Zionist US Government backed by Zionist owned governments in the UK, France, etc. In other words, the US Government is not weak and hence subject to Zionist influence, it is by its own declaration, a Zionist government that will do whatever the Zionists deem desirable. The only means to deflect such government is by, in effect, revolution: a revolution against a fundamentally anti-democratic ruling elite.

So if there is weakness, it is a weakness of the people. Whenever government has the means to exert greater control over the masses, it will obviously do so. How exactly the advanced technology revolution will play out politically is hard to see.

The people hold some cards, e.g., the blogsphere. But how much longer will that last? Governments have already committed massive funding to agent provocateurs and agents of disruption on the Web. And if necessary, they can shut the whole thing down.

On the government side, there are, in the UK, how many million spy cams now, plus New Labor’s various Stasi-like organizations, and the mass media, which though they may be losing eyeballs, still largly control the public mind.

@Ingo: not sure why you might feel your words are lost here. You have a good heart, so please keep posting.

@Alfred. I believe we have around 6m CCTV cameras in the country now. If only we had a touch of our American friends’ libertarianism!

Alfred,

I think we are pretty-well in agreement and any difference is hair-splitting so far:

“So if there is weakness, it is a weakness of the people”.

This is my meaning–the same applies in the UK, where the British population has recently become atomised by a massive and uncontrolled immigration of divers people.

Whatever loose cohesion the British had before, there always seemed to be a point, where they might act in unison against a bad law, or Governmental action–now I feel, the influx of so many aliens, has placed an unfair and overwhelming burden on the British people.

Weakening of the people, allows the ruling elites–through the facility of a partisan Parliament, to become even stronger.

Moreover, we have too many politicians, who, like the Congressmen on Capitol Hill, sign up to be “Friends of Israel”, which skews, at source, any independence of foreign policy.

BTW Alfred, your piece on Goldman Sachs is most revealing–thanks.

I had to cringe when I saw point four of Juan Cole’s list.

4. Jerusalem was founded in honor of the ancient god Shalem. It does not mean City of Peace but rather ‘built-up place of Shalem.”

Embarrassing pedantry. Must dash, I’m just about to nip off into the built-up place of London.

I expect he wanted a round 10 points and then moved this idiocy to no. 4 from no. 10 as an afterthought.

Thanks for all your supportive posts here. I’m a little depressed I think, something that comes with being unemployable (over 55)

There is only so much gardening you can do and I am getting fed up with arguing around in circles.

The world is facing unprecedented dangers, far more than we ever faced in a cold war.

I feel as if the spat between Netanyahu and the US is somewhat artificial, without really meaning it. UN resolutions dealing with Gaza and the land stealing in the Westbank East Jerusalem and Gholan is not going to be solved by blocked or abstained resolutions.

I fear that the two state solution is increasingly unlikely and hey presto what do I find this morning?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE62M16A.htm

Some old geezer agrees with me. I think that we now should lobby each and everyone for an arms embargo against Israel, as much as the arms trade is unregulated and uncontrollable.

Anybody who arms Israel at the same time as they are arguing for a peacefull solution to all of these stalled initiatives, is a hypocritical lying bastard.

Thanks again for all your support, I hope that I have answered your question Jon.

Oh yes, Larry, on yer bike you little weasel, got get ……

I have to say that I just dont believe in the Innernashnul Zyniss Conspirusseh. I’m sure that there ARE power groups, both overt and clandestine, with substantial pro-zionist influence, but there are plenty of other centres of greed-power out there with their own agendas and ravenous appetites that are unallied with the cause of Israel’s ruthless elites.

As for an answer – well, it seems to me that the single state solution would lead to a Rwanda-style bloodbath at some point. A formally recognised independent Palestine would offer a chance for Palestinians to build anew.

Why is it that those like Larry and mike cobley who dis critics of Zionism use weird spelling like “Innernashnul Zyniss Conspirusseh”? Are you standing in for Larry, Mike, since Larrry was told to piss off?

Anyhow, who raised the issue of an international Zionist conspiracy? No one here, I think. What has been discussed is whether the Government of the US can be said to be acting merely in response to Zionist pressure when it is an avowedly Zionist administration (with a White House Chief of Staff the son of an Irgun terrorist, a citizen of Israel, an IDF veteran and, presumably, a Mossad agent) and thus can be assumed to be fully in sync. with the Zionist government of Israel. On that view, the blather about Obama as an anti-Semite, etc., merely provides cover from those who might expect the Government of the United States to serve American interests first, last and always.

Talking of the form of an Israel/Palestine settlement seems off topic too, since the discussion was initially about Netenyahu’s statement about illegal construction in Arab East Jerusalem. But as the advocate of an Independent Palestine, which speck of land in the Palestinian Archepelago, does Mikey thinks the Palestinians should have as their homeland?

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/270-palestines-island-paradise-now-with-a-word-from-its-creator/

More evidence, if any were needed, of the unity of the Zionist governments of the United States and of Israel:

Nearly 300 members of Congress have signed on to a declaration reaffirming their commitment to “the unbreakable bond that exists between [U.S.] and the State of Israel”, in a letter to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

….As the Vice-President said during his recent visit to Israel: “Progress occurs in the Middle East when everyone knows there is simply no space between the U.S. and Israel when it comes to security, none. No space.”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1159159.html

Alfred – I dont deny the clear and pernicious influence of the Israeli elite and their worshippers at various levels of power in the West. I try not to attribute to Zionism and its enablers the same kind of global-reach-awe that BushCo attached to Al-Qaida. I suppose that, arguably, Zionism/pro-Israeli-elites have much great power and global reach than Al-Qaida has ever had but we need to ensure that criticism clearly derives from cold, hard fact rather than anything tainted by irrationalism. I have no doubt that Larry from Unowhere will guffaw mightily at this, but hey, he is as they say an empty vessel.

Ingo – You’re not alone in having trouble getting work. I’ve not talked to anyone, of any age, who’s not had problems in the last few years. A few of the people i know have jobs again now – but half of them are in job centres, advising people on what benefits are available.

Ingo wrote “Anybody who arms Israel at the same time as they are arguing for a peacefull solution to all of these stalled initiatives, is a hypocritical lying bastard.”

Too right. If Obama’s serious he should put forward a ban on arms sales and financial aid to Israel till it ends the siege of Gaza, starts talks with both Fatah and Hamas and ends all settlements outside the pre-1967 war borders.

Of course it might never get through congress due to AIPAC having bought half of congress – and he might have to reduce it to reducing aid to Israel – but it’d show he meant a word he said.

Mike,

To compare Zionism with Al Qaeda is absurd. Al Qaeda consists of, what was it Robin Cook said just before so conveniently dropping dead on a remote Scottish hillside, oh yes, “The database.”

Even if you include the corpse of Bin Laden, whose family so generously bankrolled one of George W. Bush failed business ventures, plus the handful of extras with AK 47s that appear with Bin Laden in that ancient U-Tube vid, Al Qaeda amounts to essentially nothing in relation to the power of the United States.

What I argued was that the United States Government is not subject to Zionist influence, it is simply Zionist by its own declaration. That is why there is no danger whatsoever of Israel dragging the US into a war with Iran. If the US goes to war with Iran, whether as the result of an Israeli false flag attack on the US navy in the Persian gulf , a pre-emptive Israeli strike on Iran followed by Iranian retaliation against American forces in Iraq, or any other mechanism, you can be sure that the whole thing will have been carefully coordinated with the US Commander in Chief, Barack, Wall St. Obama.

Whether Obama is ideologically a Zionist or simply a Manchurian candidate is immaterial. He was bought and paid for largely with Zionist money and he is surrounded and controlled by Zionists in his own administration.

Ingo, Duncan,

The job market is crap because the bulk of UK/US manufacturing plus many intellectual tasks such as software development, all kinds of R&D, back office work for international accounting firms, etc. has been outsourced to Asia where they have a ten to one or better wage advantage.

What is, on the face of it, puzzling is that outsourcing of jobs has not resulted in a collapse in the Sterling/US$ exchange versus the Asian currencies. Had that happened, the UK/US workforce would have maintained competitiveness with that in Asia. So the question is why has this not happened.

Several processes have prevented job market equilibration via currency devaluation. One is an explosion in private, mainly mortgage, debt (for example, see Steve Keen at “DebtWatch”: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2010/01/22/google-lower-bandwidth-version/) , which fueled a property boom, which masked the loss of jobs in the tradable goods and services sectors by creating generally low-skilled jobs in retail and construction.

This effect cannot go on forever. At some point a limit in the capacity to increase borrowing is reached, then a depression. This transition has already occurred in the US and is, presumably, occurring now in the UK.

In addition, the loss of jobs in the tradable goods and services sector has been masked by abnormal profits in the financial sector: profits resulting largely from the business of creating unsustainable private debt. These unsustainable profits fueled the markets for expensive wine, fancy houses, kitchens, cars, etc. Now the banks are broke there is a double bust, which however, is partially masked by government stimulus spending, i.e., more borrowing but in this case by the public, not the private, sector. This too will prove unsustainable. Either governments will run out of borrowing capacity and will have to stop spending, or they will print, in which case, hyperinflation.

Add to these factors the Chinese reluctance to recycle trade surpluses and the disruptive effect of compelling millions of workers to switch from writing software to stocking shelves in some big box store selling cheap Chinese crap, or working on some futile government make-work project and you have the conditions for the second great depression.

From this I draw two morals. First, no one should feel bad about being unemployable. It’s the times, not the individual. (We need more sidewalk cafes where those of us who are old geezers can play dominos and drink decent coffee.) Second, don’t underestimate the value of gardening, although a row of cabbages in the front border makes more sense than geraniums.

Alfred – yes, I pretty much agree with most of what you say in yr 2.36 post. What I meant was that some critics confer on Zionism a similar global-scariness factor to that which Bushco conferred on Al-Qaida. That said, the cultural and economic reach of zionist power centres is far more profound than anything AQ can do.

Hmm, bit of a broad-brush appoach, there, Neil. Going by your definition, just who is qualified to claim moral equality with Israel? I’d love to hear of some examples.

Anyone wishing to understand the Jewish psyche must acquire a copy of The Talmud. It’s exemplary precept regarding the “Other” should, with the necessary alterations, be emulated by the UK’s BNP, Unfortunately a plethora of Frankfurt School influenced “snivel – rights” laws disallow such a Semitically time – honoured option for a Goyim political party with the temerity to defend the legitimate interests of White Brits (tautologically speaking).

Here’s a copy of the Talmud if anyone wants a read:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I’ll past a translation of the Quran too, just encase anyone wants knowledge of Islam:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/

The link contains verse by verse of three different translations.

My problem is not with the Jews, or their books. My problem is with the Zionists, and they have no book, no religion and no God as all the ones who past here have admitted atheism.

So the Talmud is irrelevant to the discussion. Those guys who shoot Palestinian babies in the heads to steal their kidneys, don’t believe in God, why would their actions be determined by a book they don’t believe in?

They shoot Palestinian babies in the heads to steal kidneys because they are racist. And they believe they belong to a race that has a greater right to life than the ones they kill.

They kill Palestinian babies for the same reason I kill sheep to eat, or mice as pest control.

Not because of religion or the Talmud.

The Talmud forbids them from even being in that land until the Prophet arrives. If they disobey and disbelieve in the Talmud on that issue, why do you think they will abide by it on any other.

Let me get this straight, Zionists are not Jews and Jews are not Zionists.

For an eminently sensible take on this discussion I think nobody who contributed at the outset takes a lot of beating.

I would generalize his critique of Xymphora to the left generally.They seem to take Netanyahu,a former furniture salesman groomed by the CFR at his word.He becomes the kind of hate-figure on which the left psyche feeds for its nourishment.

The Middle East conflict is a little more nuanced.

To his credit nobody senses the underlying cynicism behind the Zionist PR.Israel was designed by Sabbatean elites less as a homeland for persecuted Jewry more a laboratory experiment.The said Sabbateans with their Round Table Group allies saw the state in terms of its potential as an attack-dog pawn in the geo-strategic plan to dominate not just the Middle East but more latterly Central Asia as well.

Anyone visiting the state of Israel gets an immediate sense of its inherent artificiality and fragility.The buildings are ramshackle and aside from the Temple Mount and the Supreme Court are plainly meant not to stand the test of time.

“The Zionists try to make the world believe that Jewish national consciousness desires satisfaction in the creation of a state in Palestine.The Jews again slyly dupe the dumb goyim.

“It doesn’t even enter their heads to build a Jewish state for the purposes of living there.All they want is a central organization for their international world swindle endowed with its sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states.A haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.”

Seems Hitler,for it is he cited above,knew the game-plan from the get-go.

Typically the left still ain’t got it!

The the klepto-masonic state soon became a major base for Meyer Lansky to operate with impunity.Later Sharon and his Bronfman crime gang allies perpetrated the massive West Bank land-scam.

The left focusses most of its energies decrying the Israeli state’s atrocious victimization and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.This dimension of the state’s behaviour is in fact merely an extension of its brutalization of its own citizens.

The apartheid nature of the regime foregrounds its inescapable parallels with Nazism.The left critique needs extending to the Israeli state’s depredations against its own people.

Tainted vaccination programmes,brutal medical experiments including the infamous irradiation tests conducted against N.African sephardi immigrants were the state’s means to create its own underclass.The allocation of huge numbers of children to its vast special education programme and the “Holocaust” brain-washing supervised by its secret service all suggest that Israel is not and was never meant to be merely a homeland sanctuary from centuries of persecution in Europe.

Brenner is not the only writer to cover the collusion between Zionists and Nazis that took place in the run-up to WW2.Edwin Black’s The Transfer Agreement found evidence that the pact saw many secular German Jews settle in Palestine perticularly around Haifa.It was these migrants who laid the basis of the government,military,educational, psychological,medical and social work infrastructure of the new state.

The state is actually firmly in the hands of about 200 families who employ a vast network of state functionaries in Orwellian-sounding goverment departments like The Ministry of Absorption,Religious Affairs,and Social Work.

This is the state referred to in mainstream official propaganda as “the only democracy in the Middle East”.A cursory glance at state practice in Israel suggests the definition of “democracy” implicit in this categorization must be pretty broad.Quasi or ersatz democracy might be more accurate designations.

Lest we forget-the left’s focus on the apartheid nature of the Israeli regime is aimed chiefly against its segregation and immiseration of the Palestinian population in the territories.In fact from the start Israel has discriminated against its own sephardi minorities.

Israel is an elite experiment in how far a population can be controlled and brutalized by the state’s officially-enforced siege-menatlity.How far can its population be pushed in the direction of their own spiritual and moral degradation?

Whereas 96% Israelis are said to have backed the Gaza cull of Palestinian civilians in 2009 the 25% figure for Israelis finding means to avoid conscription to the IDF in the territories may be a more hopeful sign that the an intractable morality still exists among a sizeable minority.

We shouldn’t feel obliged to buy into the rather ahistorical notion that Hitler’s brand of anti-semitism was inherently just bad and mad.

It’s an absurdly ahistorical proposition that ultimately will make it all the more difficult to prevent anti-semitism rearing its ugly head with similarly fateful consequences again some time soon.

One Jewish writer who saw the dangers of what she called “the scapegoat theory” was Hannah Arendt.In The Origins of Totalitarianism she noted that the idea that the Jews are always the scapegoat implies the scapegoat might have been anyone else as well.

The other form of taken-for-granted common sense assumption about anti-semitism Arendt targetted was the doctrine of “eternal anti-semitism” which she felt was but another fallacy that could count many Jews among its adherents.

Arendt was characteristically fearless and scathing in her denuciation of cheap formulae such as these to explain complex and disturbing aspects of human experience.Anti-semitism did not target Jews arbitrarily but occurred within the general framework of the emergence of the nation state.

She insisted its source was to be found in certain aspects of Jewish history and specifically Jewish functions when they operated as state bankers during previous centuries.

According to Arendt’s reading “which group of people would turn anti-semitic in a given country at a given historical moment depended exclusively on general circumstances which made them ready for a violent antagonism against their government.Their role as state bakers led to their being perceived as the group most closely allied to the state the populace now wanted overthrown.

Arendt discerned in the anti-semitic mind of the host population the recurrence of images of Jews “as an international trade organization,a worldwide family concern with identical interests everywhere,a secret force behind the throne which degrades all visible governments into mere facade,or into marionettes whose strings are manipulated behind the scenes.

“Because of their close relationship to state sources of power,the Jews were invariably identified with power,and because of their aloofness from society and concentration on the closed circle of the family,they were invariably suspected of working for the destruction of all state structures.”

Such perceptions were undoubtedly alive throughout the Weimar years.One need only recall that the role played by international Jewry in securing US intervention in WW1 to help Britain.The latter in return promised them a homeland in Palestine.All this fed the German perception that they had been stabbed in the back when they had been winning the war in 1916.

The moral decay during the Weimar years,the sight of 12 year old prostitutes outside Jewish-owned hotels in Berlin all added to the seething resentment that had been building since the international synarchy’s role at Versailles and the subsequent reparations policy and trashing of Germany’s currency and economy during the Depression years.

Hitler discarded the central banking system that had so ravaged Germany’s post-war economy and succeeded in rebuilding Germany and signing international trade deals based on bartering.Britain was especially peeved when he managed to negotiate a big oil deal with Mexico just prior to WW2.

The anti-semitism that in Arendt’s view became the core of Nazism was less a form of madness and badness than a natural human reaction to the perceived role of international Jewry in bringing Germany down in WW1 and during the post-war period,as well as its role in spreading Bolshevism from Russia.

tungsten

On the Transfer Agreement and Nazi-Zionist collusion in the 1930s this IHR piece is a condensed account.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13n4p29_Weber.html

onedemocraticstate has a fascinating article called:

Zionism and Nazism:Is There A Difference That Makes A Difference? It’s by Roger Tucker-great read especially if you noted how the killing fields of Gaza in 2009 so resembled the Warsaw Ghetto in 1944.