I hope the Lib Dems do manage to make this government less authoritarian, but i have no trust whatsoever in the vast majority of Conservative MPs – who will follow the US as blindly as Blair and much of the right of the Labour party did into whatever wars they fight – and who only decry breaches of civil liberties while in opposition (much like the Blairites before them)

Duncan

The above is the agreed joint programme. They follow it, or the government falls.

Said from the start that this could be a good thing for this country so long as the right people did the right jobs. Conservative to sort the economy LibDems to deal with the civil liberties issues.

Looks like a good deal. The light at the end of the tunnel might just be a breath of fresh air and not an oncoming train !

craig

I am not a politician and I can find ways around most of the above. Most of it is open to wide interruption (double-speak).You have got absolutely nothing in real terms and you know it.

Craig….come on. You know that’s rubbish. Saying something in anagreement and then actually doing it are completly diferent things.

It’s all rubbish…w

It says that if the relationship breaks down, a vote of no confidence can be passed – but it would need 55% of the house to succeed, which from my calculations is impossible unless some Tory politicians vote for it.

Not sure what the Lib Dem negotiators were thinking when they agreed to that

Craig has taken on a kind of tory Alastair Campbell role, without pay?.

Shafiq -

Yes – that is a strange and unconstitutional provision. I see no reason at all to presume that the proposals are being put forward in bad faith. But time will tell.

The commitment to move towards making the first £10,000 of income tax free is good – but i don’t see any mention of tax increases on big companies or the wealthiest, nor crack downs on tax havens. So how will it be funded along with deficit reduction?

The language on it is also a bit vague and “aspirational” – i.e

“We also agree to a longer term policy objective of further increasing the personal allowance to £10,000, making further real terms steps each year towards this objective.”

Raising pensions in line with average earnings is in there as a solid commitment though (assuming the coalition survives till April 2011, which it might) – and i agree, that’s good news

‘first £10,000 of income tax’

Thought that was a cornerstone of lib dems entering into a coalition.

I don’t see anything there about ending the 28 day detention without charge power, surely one of the most scandalous police-state provisions.

Sariq: good & worrying point.

Otherwise:

We have agreed a process that will allow Liberal Democrats to maintain their opposition to nuclear power while permitting the government to bring forward the national planning statement for ratification by Parliament so that new nuclear construction becomes possible.

Great.

‘Shafiq’; sorry

I hope you are right Craig – but I do sense anxiety in your rash of posts.

I do not support this government for reasons I think you understand – that does not mean my admiration for you is in any way diminished – I hope I am proved wrong and we do not engage in destruction of families and the massacre of children in pursuit of global domination and the spread of western culture.

Rather than being architects of destruction, perhaps like you we can strive for a higher consciousness that creates a magnificent civilisation synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.

Couldn’t Labour subscribe to this?

Some good news there on the civil liberties front, (assuming these promises really are cast iron and can’t get scuppered somehow). A few welcome rays of light to alleviate the darkness of the austerity measures that we are going to have to endure over the coming years. Had we had a “progressive” (LOL) coalition instead, I wonder what, if anything, New “Labour” would have been prepared to concede from it’s authoritarian agenda?

A levy on the banks sounds good too, but is this just intended to contribute to an “insurance fund” so that the taxpayers don’t have to bail them out the next time they screw up, (as they inevitably will), or is it a punitive measure to pay back something to offset the massive damage they’ve done to the economy?

Ian

No, New Labour absolutely could not subscribe to any of this and most of it is reversing appalling things they did. What rock have you been living under?

The probleim is you NuLab supporters – MJ included – are under some really weirdo psychological denial of just what kind of government you were supporting.

Craig please; I am not a NuLab supporter. I gave up on them years ago. I voted Lib Dem this time, just as I did in 2005.

There are those who blindly vote for a party because of its name, such as the National Socialist Party in Germany, rather than comparing its policies with rival parties and judging accordingly. They can’t understand that, if the rose has been substituted for a stinkwort, you can keep on calling it a rose but it still stinks to high heaven.

Reading some of the comments on here it sounds like people believe the conservatives are out for global domination….. get real, they havent been in power for 13 years.. most of the bad stuff that this country has had happen and has been engaged in has been LABOUR policy, not conservative policy.

The out going labour government where a disaster for this country, economically socially politically. Can any one think of something positive the last government did ? I cant.

At least now we have a real chance to put this country right ( and i mean sort it out.. not right wing politics

I think this will work and i think it will work well. There will be problems along the way, there is bound to be. But for the first time in a long time I am optomistic about the future governance of this country.

And for the record.. yes Im a tory boy, but even I can see the huge advantages that having the LibDems in some form of power will bring. They will reign in the excess of the conservative party.

The futures bright.. the futures kinda blueyorange

‘under some really weirdo psychological denial of just what kind of government you were supporting.’

MJ

Craig was talking to a mirror when he composed that.

And reading this list of objectives, the alarm bells start to ring more louder still. I just dont believe it; I do not believe that this Tory party, its rank-and-file and its leading lights, will openly embrace this programme, advocate it and vote in favour of it. I would like to be proved wrong, but I dont think we’re going to get anywhere near the future that these proposals represent.

I don’t trust this lot but I have to say I was taken back at what has been agreed, especially on civil liberties.

Having said that there have been sections of the Tory party very unhappy with NuLabs approach to civil liberties – in fact some of the best quotes (on CL) I have seen over the past few years came from Tories.

It’s certainly better than I’d have hoped for on May 6th, but I don’t trust any of them so we will wait and see what is delivered.

Lovely, this from the IPS:

“Both Parties that now form the new Government stated in their manifestos that they will cancel Identity Cards and the National Identity Register. We will announce in due course how this will be achieved. Applications can continue to be made for ID cards but we would advise anyone thinking of applying to wait for further announcements.

“Until Parliament agrees otherwise, identity cards remain valid and as such can still be used as an identity document and for travel within Europe. We will update you with further information as soon as we have it.”

A good start!

‘we can strive for a higher consciousness that creates a magnificent civilisation synonymous with life, celebration, purity and knowledge.’

Given time (about 6 billion years) mankind may have evolved into such a being. About the same amount of time it will take the sun to turn into a red giant and obliterates him. If God doesn’t do it first.

@All – there are a lot of anonymous comments here, which makes tracking who said what more difficult than it should be. Please, can’t everyone just put in at least a first name or a pseudonym?

David wrote “most of the bad stuff that this country has had happen and has been engaged in has been LABOUR policy, not conservative policy.”

Wrong. Most of it has been both. Destruction of our manufacturing firms – under Thatcher in the 80s.

Private Finance Initiatives – begun under John Major, continued by Blair and Brown (renamed ‘public private partnerships).

Privatised rail firms with above inflation fare rises and taking all profits, but subsidised by taxpayers – begun under Major (Conservative) – continued by Blair and Brown

The Iraq war – all but 15 Conservative MPs voted for it. Over 100 Labour MPs voted against it (though the majority voted for it)

Afghanistan war – all three main parties back it.

David wrote “The out going labour government where a disaster for this country, economically socially politically. Can any one think of something positive the last government did ? I cant.”

The national minimum wage, which has risen significantly since it was introduced. The Major government scrapped local wage councils and replaced them with nothing.

Relative peace in Northern Ireland – the Conservatives refused to negotiate with the IRA at all, blocking any chance of peace for 18 years.

Devolution for Scotland and Wales.

The 10p tax rate for lower earners (sadly scrapped by the same man who brought it in)

So there are at least three things that still exist today.

You need to look further back than 1997 – the Conservatives were even worse than ‘New Labour’ when they were in government.

I’m happy to raise a glass that is considerably more than half-full to toast the coalition’s success. To see why this is a good way to resolve a real political crisis – caused by the strain of fitting three or more parties with serious electoral support into the FPTP electoral straitjacket – just consider the alternatives.

First, a minority Conservative Government. It would be able to call another election as soon as it hit problems in Parliament. The strongest possibility woulkd be gaining a solid majority, with more influence for the anti-libertarian strains in the party.

Second, a minority Lab-Lib pact (not enough votes for a full coalition) would either have had Brown still at No 10 or an early change of Labour leader/PM. Easy prey to a vote of no confidence with the same result as above.

There are other variants, but after the actual results of the 6 May election, all would tend to the same result, a conservative majority with the “nasty” tendency in the ascendancy.

The question that Clegg and his (excellent) negotiating team must have grappled with is this: “How can we enter the next election able to claim that – but for us – we would have had a measurably worse government?” Some of the concessions the LibDems have already won may not have cost Cameron much: in effect they help with parts of his own internal reform project. But taken as a whole, the LibDems have gained many more tricks than they might have, given the weak cards they held.

If the LibDem share of the vote had been much better or if they had won up to 80 seats (and if there had been the arithmetic to support a Lab/Lib coalition), the sensible strategy might have been to win concessions from Labour. But that was never on. Clegg probably did well to contain the horrible pressure in a close election for the uncommitted to vote tactically for the big party they could live with rather than consider that LibDem policies, however attractive, might have any chance of being implemented.

With a better LibDem result and a worse Conservative one, it might have been possible to bid for one of the top cabinet jobs. Paradoxically, however, in such a position Cameron would probably have been so much weaker that he would have been unable to persuade his party to swallow any coalition with LibDems.

Is this arguing like Pangloss that this is the best of all possible worlds? Maybe. But all the other possible outcomes based on the actual votes and seats each party won strike me as being clearly worse.

That said, it will be important for Clegg to make the Deputy PM role a serious one in such areas as human rights,and political reforms beyond a serious debate on PR. Reforms should include more freedom and influence for select committees (and less party control of membership and chairs of committrrs; select committees to have more holistic remits (eg topics such as Afghanistan require MPs to grill ministers in several departments – Defence, Foreign Affairs, Trade and International Development; and a review is still needed of our weak control over fraud and postal ballots.

I presume you will have changed your mind again in about 30 minutes time, Craig?

Craig at May 12, 2010 4:26 PM

It’s always the same – they haven’t changed but their party has. They fail to recognise this.

My sister-in-law is dyed in the wool labour and can’t see any wrong in them. On Sunday I gave her a birthday present which she seemed to accept with genuine relish: a book called Murder in Samarkand. My brother will definately enjoy it even if she doesn’t.

@Craig – While I do think any liberal likes this deal (a) the Labour party by their disorganisation, tribalism, leadership hopes and in special cases (Tom Harris) reliance on FPTP led them to scupper any progressive coalition alternative and (b) no one could say that it isn’t better than having let the Conservatives have a free reign with their manifesto.

The agreement doesn’t say anything about the Tory pledge to scrap the HRA; any word on that you’ve heard?

Duncan,

I run and own a manufacturing company, started under thatcher. All she did there was kill off a dinosaur. Labour has made it almost impossible to run a manufacturing company in this country for reasons that are to long to list here.

Min wage – ok yes I will give you that one.

Labour took us to war…. and they lied about it, should the opposition have objected… yes they should.

Not sure that devolution is a good thing or bad thing yet, for my money far better to bring the UK together than allow it to drift apart, letting it implode is easy, facing and dealing with the reasons for it falling apart takes courage – time will tell if thats a good thing or not.

Ireland – Probably more to do with the americans than anyone else.

So I’ll Give you one and a half

As for the bad ideas under the cons – yes there where some.. but why did labour not repeal them ? Theyve had 13 years to do it, but they have supported it and encouraged it especially PFI’s.

Railways have been a total disaster for a long time. Without MASSIVE investment they will continue to be a disaster.

Anyway I strongly believe that the past is the past, its about what happens now that really matters.

Despite the doom and gloom merchants I will remain optomistic until the future rolls out one way or the other.

By the way for people who want PR, this is the kind of power sharing deals that will hapen after every General Election. Kinda a good way to see if it would work with our 3 party system or not, try before you buy !

With regards to Gary McKinnon who has been mentioned here over the last few days.

Well first of all, despite what was claimed Gary McKinnon caused no damage to anything or anyone and made absolutely no personal gain.

When he was tracked down, the US Government rather than trying to persecute him as a Terrorist should have offerred him a job on a top US Security Consultants Salary which would have been well in excess of $200,000 per annum even 10 years ago, and even allowed him to continue working at home from his bedroom.

He was obviously better than the security consultants that they were employing at the time, because he exposed all their security flaws on systems that were effectively wide open.

He actually did them a Massive Favour by exposing these security flaws.

And to whoever who has been hacking my PC over the past 24 hours, can you please Fuck Off, or I may get my Lad on to you.

Can the new UK Government please release Gary McKinnon from the threat of being extradited and tortured in some US Gulag.

Thanks,

Tony

David, I agree with Duncan on this. The problem is not one particular brand of party, just that power in England since Thatcher has been largely too market-oriented, and socially regressive.

Steady on everyone, you’ll be breaking into a chorus of “Always look on the bright side of life…” if you’re not careful.

If nothing else Big Brother is back in his box for a few years.

http://freegary.org.uk/

Ian Orr: interesting analysis, thanks!

@Ian – thanks also from me for your reflections. Whilst all three parties are in favour of the war in Afghanistan, I’d like to see from the new coalition some basic honesty on the Karzai electoral fraud, some decent measures to clean it up, and a recognition that “promoting democracy abroad” is a hollow claim if the democracy turns out to be a sham.

On the basis of the Lib Dem wins in their agreement document, I am considering that this change of attitude might actually be possible in this parliament. Any chance, do you think?

@brian, if Big Brother is only temporarily waylaid, and not slain, that is still something to be pleased about. I agree that the surveillance state will always be a threat, and my view is that it will continue to be so whilst inequality – and the concomitant crime and social unrest – is so high.

Iain Orr @5:06pm

Agreed.

I view the Tories with trepidation, but am rejoicing that those scumbags are out of power.

If 3 party politics is here to stay then co-operation between parties must become the norm, and that includes with the Tories.

If the LibDems manage to get the Tories to stick substantially to this agreement I will be content.

That does not mean there will not be pain ahead. There will. The nation is skint. It was deceitful of NuLabour to pretend they could avoid cutting spending. The IMF would have been knocking on the door within months.

Jon, possibly, but I’d like to see what i think ScouseBilly mentioned on another thread, a Bill of Rights positively outlawing Big Brother type legislation, not just repealing that which has been imposed.

Jon

You asked about more honesty in dealing with Afghanistan. It’s certainly possible: indeed, any change would have to be in that direction (all roads lead north from the South Pole). It won’t be easy with Liam Fox in Defence, but Hague could be more influential from the FCO than anyone throughout the Nu-Lab Dark Ages. I might make a half exception for Robin Cook – but remember that he did not have much influence on his PM, whereas Hague will have. He’s also a far more balanced thinker and actor than when he was prematurely leader of the Conservatives.

But it will require hard work to strip away the layers of self-deception in all parties on the defence/war-on-terrorism front.

An added reason for my glass being more than half-full is no longer having Miliband at the FCO. I like UK politics too much to think it would be other than bad news for more than the Labour Party if he became its leader.

MJ -

sorry, I thought you said you were going to vote NuLab on a thread about a week ago – I have to say I was surprised at the time Happy if I was mistaken.

Craig, you will end up disappointed. I think we’ve all seen this before. A party gains power; some policies or agreements seem good, some not so. The tendency of the believer is to forgive the bad – or put it down to expediency or compromise – and cling to the perceived good. It doesn’t work. Thousands forgave the 1997 labour party many things because we believed in the party and (Ha Ha) principles. We were betrayed, as will you be.

When Clegg first appeared, Orange Book in hand, you had your New Labour moment. To believe anything else is to cling to a political hope that is nothing more than a warm, fuzzy, illusion.

“Happy if I was mistaken”.

Be happy Craig. I think I said I was Old Labour at heart and was therefore going to vote Lib Dem.

Chris

It is interesting nobody can find fault with the intentions expressed above. We merely have a contention that because Blair was a charlatan, Clegg must be too. Not logical. Time will tell, and if the above is not implemented in a proper spirit I shall be the first to attack. But I see no reason at all to assume it will not be.

I support the BBC License Fee (and yes I noticed the censorship – that is fair enough)

But the management of the BBC is in need of a Massive Cull

To get personal again – My Daughter has actually experienced the Outrageous Opulence of the BBC….

And Channel 4

She volunteers for stuff to get her face on TV – just for a laugh of course.

Craig will delete this post in less than 30 seconds if he is on form.

Tony

Craig, please don’t get me wrong: I hope you are right. I merely offer a note of caution borne of bitter experience…. allied to the fact that your recent posts seem to reveal a similar soul searching to that I have seen before.

Craig wrote (concerning the coalition agreement, and questionable clauses within): “I see no reason at all to presume that the proposals are being put forward in bad faith.”

The Tories have been putting proposals into this agreement. What more evidence of bad faith does one need? Something about the NHS being in safe hands under the Tories springs to mind, as but a single example.

He promised to buy me

A bunch of blue ribbon

He promised to buy me

A bunch of blue ribbon

He promised to buy me……….

Some people have been slagging off Craig for changing his mind…

What people need to realise is that most people are incapable of changing their mind.

The way the human race’s mind is built is based on survival.

Its all based on fight or flight.

You either do exactly what your elders tell you without thought or your tribe is decimated and your tribes genes will only survive via rape.

Ask the indigenous American Indians if you don’t believe me…

But these rules no longer work very well…

It means that an adult human being can no longer learn anything new…

If you can’t change your mind, you can’t learn.

I have been learning all my life. I have changed my mind about almost everything, because I have searched and found new information and evidence that I was previously completely unaware of.

There is nothing wrong with changing your mind.

Yes loyalty is a good value, but not if you are being loyal to something that is intrinsically wrong, evil and corrupt (like for example the Catholic Church)

You can reject it. You can change your mind. You can think for yourself.

Tony

tony_opmoc at May 12, 2010 7:30 PM

Nice one.

YNWA

So will Chris Huhne follow the Don Quixote approach to our energy crisis?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE64A3ER20100511

Yes! We’re all individuals.

i predict further adventures in afghanistan, pakistan and iran .. neo con war hawks just look at the prvision made in the government

I find this completely weird. My PC is being subjected to a Massive Attack…

I even got this

Your search for Craig Murray did not match with any Web results.

Search Suggestions:

Make sure all words are spelled correctly

Try different keywords

Try more general keywords

Try fewer keywords

View more Search Tips

Normally I get over 1.5 Million Results on a Simple Google Search of

Craig Murray

At least they are not dropping real bombs on us yet

I have several different operating systems on this computer and can also achieve multiple different IP addresses

But wiping out Craig Murray’s Over 1.5 Million connections I find completely extra-ordinary

I reckon someone must have really pissed off the bloke with Ricketts

I think he may need a Vitamin D suplement (from memory of course)

Tony

craig,

i’m not a new labour supporter, and even worse i’m not even british. i do live on this planet though.

Ian

Tony, it’s specific to your PC.

From Google about a minute ago:

Advanced searchAbout 1,630,000 results (0.26 seconds)

craig murray About 1,630,000 results (0.24 seconds), but then I have got a tinfoil hat on.

“So let us begin anew ?” remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity

is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.”

- PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY’S INAUGURAL ADDRESS JANUARY 20, 1961

I’m reminded of part of a speech I heard almost a quarter of century ago by someone shedding crocidile tears for the victims of Tory Thatcherite policies; who stood by and let others fight the battles he and his cabal did not have the stomach to fight and whose mindset lives on today in the Sectarian Tribalist Tendancy who would rather be losers, who would rather sit sniping on the sidelines than give up its self-proclaimed right to claim exclusive ownership of the terms “left”; “progressive” and “radical” by letting anyone else not part of the “tribe” into the enclosure they have set up as the paternalistic vanguard of ordinary working people.

Those over about the age of 40-45 may recognise it. I’ve updated it to reflect what is, sadly, the situation as it stands:

“I’ll tell you what happens with authoritarian tribalists. You start with a far-fetched series of policies designed to placate the right wing media, the unelected money markets and neo-con interests.

And these are then pickled into a rigid micro-managerialist dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, misplaced, outdated, irrelevant to the real needs.

And you end in the grotesque spectacle of a Tory Government, a Tory Government, scuttling round Parliament and the Country committing themselves to scrapping ID cards and a National Identity register of its own people; outlawing the DNA fingerprinting of schoolchildren; stopping the retention of innocent peoples DNA; restoring the rights to non-violent protest; defending trial by jury; reviewing the libel laws to protect freedom of speech; ending the detention of children for immigration purposes; further regulating CCTV cameras; doing away with the proliferation of unnecessary new criminal offences; and restoring the state pension link to earnings.

Anti-civil rights policies and legislation all of which were introduced by a Labour Government, a Labour Government. I tell you – and you’ll listen – you can’t play politics with people’s civil rights and people’s pensions and people’s lives.”

It is the tribalist majority within the Labour Party – the old right wing authoritarians and their blairite fellow travellersat level who are the ones who have put us in this position.

They are spinning like a top and lying like troopers to deflect the blame for their own cowardice and ego’s onto others.

They have lost all credible claim to be progressive and of the “left”. Until they have cleared out the dead wood, got rid of their control freak mindset, and learned how to work with others of like mind they deserve to be sidelined.

They have a great deal to answer for in spurning the opportunity to stop the damage of a Tory Administration.

wendy

I saw that as well.

“As for the bad ideas under the cons – yes there where some.. but why did labour not repeal them ? Theyve had 13 years to do it, but they have supported it and encouraged it especially PFI’s.”

No disagreement with you there.

“By the way for people who want PR, this is the kind of power sharing deals that will hapen after every General Election.”

If the election had been under STV PR then even if people had voted as they did under first-past-the-post (which they wouldn’t have – far more would have voted Lib Dem or for smaller parties) then Labour and the Lib Dems would have had plenty of seats to form a coalition.

Duncan McFarlane at May 12, 2010 8:53 PM

So are you saying STV would have kept a bunch of war criminals and authoritarian control freaks in power for another 5 years? Perhaps we should keep that quiet.

Eccles – i agree. Blunkett , Reid and the rest of the Blairites were spitting blood at the idea of Labour not having to go into opposition immediately, because they were more concerned about getting their front bench status and salaries back by getting rid of Brown than they were about anything else.

Almost the entire parliamentary Labour party unfortunately cared more about keeping their own seats or factional in-fighting than they did about democracy. If they’d backed a referendum on PR a couple of years ago they could be in coalition with the Lib Dems now.

looks like clegg is pretty much tied in, and cameron is not one to play second fiddle .

with a fixed term and little chance of no confidence vote passing (55%), along with pro israel reagrdless of legitimate palestinian rights and obama already signalling the pro war stance of cameron – and ensured with hague et al in those prime jobs

looks like the nasty party is truly back.

Congratulations to Craig for backing a winner. It’s so nice to see the cobwebs of New Labour Blairite dictatorship being blasted away by a blast of political discussion and bargaining. It makes Mrs Thatcher’s statement that Socialism is dead, look more like reality. If the Blair legacy, tight control on civil liberties, highly illegal wars and back-handers from the beyond-corrupt bankers, was socialism, it has now truly breathed it’s last.

Desperate New Labourites keep talking about ‘the progressive Left’, but ‘aggressive’ is going to be the final legacy of these warmongerers and beyond the pale gravy-trainers like Hoon. Good riddance to them and fair play to the dynamic duo for creating the alternative. The best thing about New Labour is that is that they have left.

Personally I’m optimistic about this coalition, it was the only realistic and sensible solution. This election really was historic! I find that my cynicism has melted, maybe it’s wishful thinking and naivety but I genuinely feel excited. We have a whole new generation in charge after all those years with the Boomers running things. As the Independent predicted last week (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/jonathan-pontell-cleggs-rise-is-the-sound-of-generation-jones-clearing-its-throat-1961191.html) “the torch has been passed” from the Boomers to Generation Jones. Cameron, Clegg, and a big chunk of the new Cabinet and Parliament are all GenJonesers, I don’t think there could have been an alliance if Boomers were still running the parties and it will be interesting to see how this generational change affects things.

Posted by: at May 12, 2010 8:49 PM

i think this con dem coalition was already in the making prior to the election outcome (there were media reports of back-door informal talks prior to may 6th) .. on the basis of that it would be an hung parliament.

cross party arrangements have been pretty quick and cabinet positions already made .. and importantly despite what the libdems believe it is cameron and his cronies who will pull the strings ..

I now get on Craig Murray

About 2,120,000 results (0.17 seconds)

But Craig

Please Don’t Change You Website and Most of All Do Not Introduce Any Advertising

You Don’t Need It

Tony

So craig, your new bosses have whiped you in to obeying the party line have they?

What was that letter they sent to you?

“Don’t question” or was it “don’t disagree”?

My wife got a text message from her sister today.

“We’re going to have to endure 5 years of Cameron cos U voted Lib Dem!”

Hmm. Hard to argue with that.

Posted by: at May 12, 2010 9:24 PM

Craig like me doesn’t work for you any more.

For more information can I refer you to the original series of

The Prisoner

We RESIGNED

Tony

Actually The New Series on ITV is Surprising Good. It’s even in High Definition and also features the actor in my avatar…

Well I think its him

I forget his name but he too comes from Lancashire

“Can the new UK Government please release Gary McKinnon from the threat of being extradited and tortured in some US Gulag.”

I assume you’re joking Tony Opmoc.

Tony

I won’t take advertising, don’t worry. I expect the new government not to extradite Gary McKinnon.

I would really like to know, despite the fine words, what actual leverage do the LD’s have over the Tories if they disagree with policy decisions like Europe or the economy? All Craig has said the government ‘will fail’. Do the LD’s have to threaten to walk out every time the Tories fail to deliver, or more likely, implement things the LD’s don’t agree with?

My (natural) suspicion is that the Tories have the LD’s over a barrel. They have thrown them a few bones, in the name of expedience, in order to implement their core Tory beliefs. When the LDs disagree, the Tories will portray them as wrecking the government blah blah. I think the minimum the Lds should have obtained is Cable as chancellor. The deputy PM post is cosmetic. The other posts are minor. Notice the horrific Tory Tw*ts in the major offices of state: the execrable and piss poor Osborne, the loathsome Hague, and the pathetic May. That is why I have no confidence in this ‘coalition’. It appears to me the the LDs have been taken for suckers, who will have no real leverage over Cameron and co, despite the fine words. I think they would have been much stronger and principled as a separate party opposing a minority Tory government. Then they would have real leverage in the House, combining with the other parties when necessary. The Tories would have had to be much more compromising. The LDs have been co-opted to shut them up, and bind them into a government they will end up hating, patsies for a cruel, partisan government which will look after its own, its media supporters and international finance.

Do European liberal democrats and believers in PR/coalition government spend their time moaning about their coalitions as soon as they’re formed, or is it just because we’re inexperienced?

Ian M

In a slightly different context, it used to be called MAD, I believe.

Neither can afford to fail – it could for once provide decent cabinet and party debate. You never know the as yet unanticipated/unappreciated consequences: Question Time may be more interesting, the press for the most part will be toeing a different line.

Interesting times ahead.

Are you a neoconservative, Larry? Is that why you defend the US hard state at every available opportunity? Is that your job, Larry?

by “fail” perhaps I meant “fall out” – because of the fall out…

Craig,

You are my hero.

My son ran his own website from the age of 13, and kids were sending him money from all over the World…

Because he said – I can do this a lot faster…

And so he bought the server which kids from all over the world had paid for…

And I drove him with it into a Datacentre in The London Docklands where he configured it himself…

And he got it working…

The FASTEST BANDWIDTH in The World

I did say he should use Linux instead but from the age of 11 he was a certified and registered Microsoft Developer – and got all the New Releases of Their Operating Systems To Test For Free

And so it lasted for 4 days – and then was blasted to Shit…

So I drove him back into London to collect it

He installed Linux on it, and he only asked me One Thing

How do you Configure The Security Dad?

And so, there was Absolutely NO WAY he was going to let down his Friends From All Over The World who had sent him a few Dollars or whatever by Western Union or Whatever..

So I drove him back into London to the Data Centre….

And he got well over 1,000,000 hits

And No He Did Not Make Any Money From It

And No He Did Not Have ANY Advertising On His Website

Tony

Scousebilly

How is it MAD? The tories have the whip hand, they are not equally armed. If, for instance, Osborne produces as inept and dangerous budget as we expect, exactly what power does Cable have to alter it? These are the details I would like to know in order to be persuaded that the LDs have any power at all, other than as scapegoats and fall guys.

Ian M

The one breaks the coalition; it is broken for both. I think you could show some goodwill, especially considering the amount of power Lib-Dems have finally achieved after how long?

It’s like a new boss arrives at a business and, on day one, half the employees tell him, “your shit – this aint gonna work!”, and you think that’s going to optimise the way the business moves forward?

Wait and see. I’m reasonably optimistic that each will temper the other in mutually assured government.

I fail to understand the continual attacks on the Labour movement by Craig and many other posters on here.

The simple facts are that whilst the Liberals were the great reformers of the 19thC, Labour were the great reformers of the 20thC. Both were reforming against attacks by the Conservative Party.

Current and past Labour supporters well understand how the Labour party was hijacked by neocons and authoritarians under Blair and despise those who did that to the party. But the fact remains that 139 Labour MPs rebelled against Blair’s Iraq war whilst only 15 Conservative MPs did so.

So the natural heart of the Labour movement is still against these wars of aggression whilst the Conservative party is more naturally inclined to alliance with warmongering imperialism.

Those are the facts.

The Labour movement is not just Blair. It was also great reforming Home Secs like Roy Jenkins. It was Robin Cook too, and many others and progressive causes and initiatives too numerous to mention.

Currently Liam Fox is talking up an Iranian threat and Wilhelm Hague is planning to visit Hillary this week to ensure the UK is onboard for warmongering plans. Labour wouldn’t have gone this way under Brown and wasn’t going that way. Brown was much more old Labour than Blair, and I suspect that’s why media attacked him so.

The Labour party has only been half destroyed in its sad alliance with neocons. My fear is that the Lib Dems will be totally wiped out.

Terry

What have I against the Labour Party? 1 million dead Iraqis. I don’t think the new govt will start any wars. If wrong I will apologise.

Terry: I always loved Labour and supported it. It no longer exists. “New” Labour supplanted it, and it’s aims were pretty much 180 degrees from the original Labour party. Labour died with John Smith. It’s just taking a while for people – like yourself, perhaps – to understand that.

I still retain a soft spot for Brown, but he bankrolled the entire activity of “New” Labour. Things were still going in the wrong direction. He does not deserve to be in office because of his authoritarian, neo-con policies.

We probably need another party, or such a change that turned Labour into “New” Labour to happen again, but in the other direction. Any party with a mendacious filthy neo-con like Mandelson pulling the strings deserves nothing but but to be kicked out of office. Half of the “New” Labour movers and shakers still belong in the dock at The Hague.

Craig

You need to be a bit more discriminating.

You’re supporting a Conservative party in which only 15 Tory MPs voted against the Iraq slaughter.

You’re wildly attacking a Labour party in which 139 Labour MPs voted against that Iraq slaughter.

You’re also wildly attacking a Labour movement which at grassroots was the most vociferous campaigner against the Iraq slaughter.

I’m sorry, this point has probably been made, but I don’t understand. The Conservatives supported the attacks. Does that not make them equally warmongers, and equally morally culpable? Or more so, since they didn’t have Blair/being in government as an excuse?

As for whether any new govt would start any new wars: the country, I think, wouldn’t let them.

glenn

It may be that we need a new progressive alliance to emerge from the remnants of old Labour and other places, but Craig’s Conservative party is not it.

There are structural reasons for the decline of old Labour, and it was certainly hijacked by Blairite neocons, but still 139 Labour MPs voted against the Iraq war.

There’s plenty to build upon still within the Labour movement.

Terry: but with Miliband leading it? Are the party really that out of touch and regressive still?

Terry at May 12, 2010 10:42 PM

The Labout Party re-build is long overdue. Surely not a good idea that they could be in government simultaneously.

I couldn’t give a damn about any particular party unless it commits war crimes. The Conservative MP’s were lied to just as the electorate were.

Your party has brought shame on this country and the sooner (I wish) the new regime give us a judicial inquiry on Iraq, the better.

Terry,

Is it not strange, then, that not one of those anti-war Labour MPs you talk about is a credible candidate in the Labour leadership election?

How do you explain that?

At least nobody can accuse Craig of not being flexible when it comes to his support. A week ago he was arguing passionately not to be a partner of the Tories, now that the details are there, a road to Damascus conversion is now completed. I suppose facts rather than supposition can do that to a person.

Anything at all that makes the state less authoritarian is to be welcomed, but where is the much needed reform of the police? Disbanding the private sector ACPO would be a start, as would clamping down on access/sale of data to third parties.

tech

It’s remarkably easy to hijack democracy in Britain, mainly because democracy has never existed, other than for a period between 1945 and the late 1970s.

The Labour party was hijacked by neocons in its weakest moment.

But still 139 Labour MPs voted against the Iraq war, the largest rebellion in Labour history.

The point really is not to throw the baby out with the filthy neocon bathwater.

Suhayl, that I can predict that that hacker will not go to Gitmo does not make me a neoconservative. Every single member of the ACLU would agree with me.

Craig

They had a habit of dying of heart attacks at propitious moments for the neocon agenda.

John Smith. Robin Cook.

But still there’s something to build upon in the Labour movement, whereas there isn’t in your new friend the Conservative party.

“But still there’s something to build upon in the Labour movement, whereas there isn’t in your new friend the Conservative party.”

No prejudice there then… eh, Terry.

ScouseBilly

It’s not a matter of prejudice. It’s a matter of looking at the facts.

139 Labour MPs rebelled. 15 Tories rebelled.

139 is more than 15.

Craig is hoping the 15 are more than the 139, the largest rebellion in Labour history.

Terry, the dossier came from where? Have you not read Craig’s book?

Do you have any idea how Whitehall was perverted by Nu-Lab criminals?

Have you no idea, how that led to the surveillance state?

“Whenever justice is uncertain and police spying and terror are at work, human beings fall into isolation, which, of course, is the aim and purpose of the dictator state, since it is based on the greatest possible accumulation of depotentiated social units.”

- Carl Gustav Jung, The Undiscovered Self (1957).

wendy

You are correct. Every eventuality is planned for. They started to talk as soon as they knew there was a chance of a hung parliament.

As you said.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LE05Ak02.html

Lets Face It

We Need a Cull of The MANAGEMENT

The Old Useless Farts

Despite Rumours To The Contrary

Our Kids Are a Lot Brighter Than Us

So now is the Time To RESIGN

Leave Your Job (Once You Have Trained a Good Replacement)

And Give

Your Kids a Chance

They Can Do It

There is a Life After Retirement

Ten Years Ago when I was working My Bollocks Off

I Looked Ten Years Older Than I Do Now

So I reckon I have saved 30 years by retiring

Some people actually think I am about 35

My hair is dyed, but I have inherited my Beautiful Mother’s Skin

I use no cream at all

Tony

Tony, don’t you think we have a duty to let the young know it’s ok to be an individual, to think for yourself, never to accept without understanding and checking for ourselves?

My nephew is 10, the brightest in his new school. He asked me how CO2 could lead to warming when it’s only 380 ppm by volume. I sent him this about the “hot water bottle effect”:

http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=1562&linkbox=true&position=4

scousebilly

I have no problem with your or Craig’s attack on the NuLab neocon leadership under Blair. I’ve done it myself.

I despise them!

I’m just saying that 139 Labour MPs voted against Tony’s war and only 15 Conservative MPs did.

The Conservatives as a party are more in tune with the neocon agenda, quite naturally. It comes from their imperialist mindset.

I’m pointing out that that is not natural to the Labour party rank and file. They fought against it as best they might, not just in parliament, but on the streets, in the workplaces, in blogs, in media, wherever they could.

If you want to attack the Labour movement, attack them for ever allowing the Blairite neocons to take control.

But attacking the whole Labour party and movement for the crimes of Blair and associates is not just stupid, it’s downright dishonest and immoral, especially when you’re now allying yourselves with a more openly neocon Conservative party.

Craig – I have to agree with Terry here – if you’ve got that grudge against the entire Labour party, when the majority of Labour party members opposed the Iraq war – and over 100 Labour MPs voted against it – but you have no similar grudge against the Conservatives, when most of their membership were enthusiastically for it and only 15 Conservative MPs voted against it – you’re being biased and irrational. No other explanation for it.

The vast majority of Conservative MPs in the new government voted for the Iraq war, with enthusiasm.

and i’m saying that as someone who left the Labour party even before the Iraq war over PFIs and PPPs and public subsidies for privatised rail companies – and the party leadership’s backing for sanctions and bombing which mostly just killed ordinary Iraqis

ScouseBilly,

Despite that both their Mum and Dad were brought up as Staunch Roman Catholics…

We didn’t get our kids Baptised because we knew they had no original sin…

So there was no evil to wash away

And so we didn’t program with any Religion

They both came top of their class in Religious Studies

And think it is a load of bollocks

But with Global Warming

The Indoctrination has been so severe, that when She went ski-ing over Easter

It was so cold that she had to buy even more protective clothing than she had brought on the bus with her mates from the Global Warming Slush Fund Supported University

She had to Pay That Herself

But has now got a Part Time job with a Sports Company…

And worked her bollocks off for a month

And got paid £80

She is Slowly Learning The Lessons of Life From Experiencing It

Tony

“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear” – Bertrand Russell

‘and importantly despite what the libdems believe it is cameron and his cronies who will pull the strings’

Once again you are correct. Events since have proved that.

tony_opmoc at May 12, 2010 11:37 PM

They sound well equipped for life.

I’m sorry for those without imagination, and humour; the unwitting eco-pc-smokefree-jugend, if you will – poor bastards.

and don’t get me started on the politicisation of the police, medical profession etc.

“Political history is largely an account of mass violence and of the expenditure of vast resources to cope with mythical fears and hopes” – Murray Edelman.

ScouseBilly

Thanks

Do you realise how difficult it is to get a job if you are a teenager – and have got no contacts who can help you get a job?

Do you understand the importance of having a job when you are a teenager – and earning your own money…

Most of my Daughter’s Friends who went to the Posh Single Sex Grammar School….

Didn’t get their first job until….and some of them still haven’t…

Some of Their Elder Sisters are 25 years old and they have never been paid for work in their lives….

Even if they have a Top Class Degree

And My Kids got Their Jobs Completely Under Their Own Inititaive with Nothing But Encouragement From Their Mum and Dad

She probably got the sports job cos she knew a lot about some of their equipment

Like she could spin some of the departments inside out

Cos she had already used their kit and done it

Both our Children, Like Their Mum and Dad went to Ordinary Schools Where There Were Boys and Girls In The Same Class.

Tony

Terry at May 12, 2010 11:28 PM

You are asking that the Labour movement in general may be excused for their part in our fall from grace.

I think the civilised thing to do is now to have a post-mortem within the party, examine your collective and individual conscience and remove the elements involved in that evil deceit – then and since. Until then nobody should again put their faith in the Labour party. I felt that bad in 2003 and still do. It made me ashamed of my country, and that hurts.

In the meantime the country needs to deal with the pressing issue of our horrendous deficit and pray that we keep our flattering AAA rating.

ok?

Pachyderm in the parlour: Trident, Trident, Trident.

AKA The great, useless, money-waster

we need to reduce the deficit without sacking so many public sector workers that we cause a tip back into a worse recession though – definitely don’t trust the conservatives on that one – and it looks like the smarter Lib Dems, like Vince Cable, are pretty much being side-lined

Yes, Tony I do.

I hope that the £10k tax allowance will create jobs – even if, in the case of kids, they still live at home and may only be doing part-time. At least they’ll have some pride in themselves and will be able to afford a few of life’s pleasures.

It’s going to be hard all round for the next ? years. I’m glad yours are doing well.

If we get out of recession we have a chance of paying off the debt – if we go back into it the debt will continue to grow because our government revenues will dwindle

scousebilly

“In the meantime the country needs to deal with the pressing issue of our horrendous deficit and pray that we keep our flattering AAA rating.”

by joining up with an open and obvious neocon party like the Conservatives, eh?

A neocon party who are currently planning war on Iran.

You’re either a Lib Dem who doesn’t do irony, or a Conservative who’s delighted to have sucked them in.

I suspect the latter.

We don’t do protests any more, but on Monday afternoon, we did cycle to our local council on the other side of our village…

On our Bicycles

To Deliver Our Own Personal Protest

We just walked up to the door

and it opened…

We delivered our letter to the receptionist,by hand after waiting ages for her to turn up (there was no security whatsoever)

And if it had been a hell of a lot warmer, we might have done the whole thing nude

Like we have a history of in the Greek Islands and the Caribbean (only the Cuban Bit – its a different island)

But the principle is the same

Tony

10k tax allowance is a good idea – and we really can’t afford to upgrade Trident

‘and it looks like the smarter Lib Dems, like Vince Cable, are pretty much being side-lined’

Cable has been put into a hallway cupboard and the door locked.

“You’re either a Lib Dem who doesn’t do irony, or a Conservative who’s delighted to have sucked them in.

I suspect the latter.”

That’s a good one, Terry.

And I suspect it’s because I don’t agree with you.

Anyway, I’m discussing what has actually happened not what might/may/could under an untested coalition.

I didn’t want to invoke Godwin but the denial is akin to the German people not so long ago – after all the crime was the same one.

Here’s another good one:

“The only difference between Bush and Hitler is that Hitler was elected.”

Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007.

It is standing there and I am looking at it

I have played it every single day in my life since it arrived about 3 weeks ago

I didn’t play it much the day before yesterday because some cunt had fucked up my computer…

But I did play it for a bit from memory..

And then after midnight yesterday…

I played it again and ordered a new guitar cord…

The buzz was intermittently really annoying me – I’m sure its an intermittent connection from the dodgy cord my daughters American friends left here…

I haven’t yet played it today

Its a

Les Paul

I can’t yet sing by the way

But The Power Is Still There

In fact a band named themselves after me

I had the loudest voice

MORE

Tony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUuj3BEkoXU

“The buzz was intermittently really annoying me – I’m sure its an intermittent connection from the dodgy cord my daughters American friends left here…”

Tony, is the amp next to a TV screen or Monitor? That causes buzzing.

I too have an LP – sunburst finish, lovely

scousebilly

It’s not a question of my agreeing or disagreeing with you.

It’s quite simply that what you’re saying has no basis in fact.

Your argument, insofar as it can be disentangled from your irrelevant and oh so gnomic quotations, is that we should support the Tory party because a particular Labour leadership was horrible and nasty against the wishes of the mass of the movement when all the evidence shows that the Tories as a whole are similarly horrible and nasty and totally unconcerned about it.

The discussion you see is only purposeful if one is having it with a Lib Dem. There’s no point in discussing it with a Tory like you.

Here in Scotland, the lib dems have facilitated a Tory Government rejected by 85% of the electorate. Installed as Secretary of State for Scotland is a man, Danny Alexander, who just days before appointment was campaigning for that same post to be abolished.

Terry at May 13, 2010 12:51 AM

Do read Craig’s book.

Try and get over the fact Labour lost.

And your ad-hominems are way off-beam.

Perhaps the “gnomic” quotations are making a point, that was certainly the intent.

So here’s one for the road:

“In a time of change, it is learners who inherit the future. The learned find themselves well equipped to live in a world that no longer exists.”

Eric Hoffer.

Its

a

Massive Attack

Its

100th Window

Its

Special Cases

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVoH6ZTDrD0

Tony

scousebilly

There is no change. The Tories are horrible and nasty by nature and delight in it. It’s what they’ve been doing for hundreds of years.

Labour in a weakness, just fell amongst bad company.

If either Craig or you think the Tories would have treated him differently, then you really do have a lot to learn.

With that, I’ll just leave you both to your Faustian pact.

Terry at May 13, 2010 1:13 AM

Have a stiff drink or two…

Terry,

Are you the Terry that claims to have got her Pregnant?

Because whilst eveyone knows She likes Terry

FFS He Looks about 10 years Older than Me And She Can Do Far Better Than Him

I Quite Fancy Making Her Pregnant Myself…

Except I Love My Wife

And Her Husband

Well He himself admits in his strong Southern Irish accent that he looks like an IRA Terrorist (Resigned)

Now he can only shoot blanks

I have suggested a Turkey Baster

But it didn’t go down too well

So I said, well there is no way I am fucking her

Any Volunteers?

Tony

Terry – Labour is _dead_. It’s now a neo-con zombie called “new” Labour. Sure, there are a few old die-hards who haven’t realised it yet, just like there are some Catholics who don’t yet realise that the Church exists only to make money and provide cover for a massive paedophile ring, and that the entire concept of a sky-spook exists only to exploit the ignorant and feeble-minded.

Why don’t you answer Craig’s question, and explain why none of the people you insist don’t have anything to do with the “New” Labour project happen to have a sniff of a chance of leadership?

As far as I’m concerned, Blair is an absolute traitor, far worse than Thatcher. She was what she stood for. Blair pretended to be something entirely different, and destroyed the opposition to Thatcherism. I fear, Terry, that you just haven’t wised up to that point yet. Until “New” Labour is utterly destroyed, we have no opposition to the right’s agenda. You are slowing that progress down by acting as an apologist for it.

The old posh girls who went to the convent and lost their husbands on the way because they worked themselves to death bringing up their Children who are now in their 20′s and 30′s dont half

FUCK

You see, my wife finds out everything from both sides both old and young

She of course tells me only a small percentage of what she knows

But all these Old Girls are shagging Blokes Half Their Age

Tony

Terry – “You’re also wildly attacking a Labour movement which at grassroots was the most vociferous campaigner against the Iraq slaughter.”

Does it not suggest something, that their leadership did it anyway ? A little cabal did it, regardless of what their party members, or anyone else, said about it. For myself, I’ll consider voting for them again when they put that right, get the guilty parties to trial and give us credible assurances that they won’t let that happen again.

My MP of the day, Hilton Dawson (pbuh, NuLab, Lancaster and Hinterland), posted a letter to the prime minister in the window of his ‘surgery’ just down the hill from where I live (he also emailed a copy directly to me in response to a Letter To My MP, asking him to do pretty much what he’d done). It was a better letter than I’d ever expected to see from an MP, being a cynical type with practice watching them. “Oi ! This is a really really bad idea, don’t go near it”. *Good* grassroots.

Then he posted another letter, telling his constituents he wouldn’t be standing again next time. I find it hard to believe these two facts were not related.

So what are these grassroots worth, with such a leadership ? Take it back from them, then tell us.

Err… Tony, your contributions to the latest thread often strays from the point. It’s kind of difficult to converse with others while you persist in doing this – Craig might spend time deleting this rambling the next day, but you’ve spoiled the conversation in the meantime. Please stop it!

Glenn,

A Tory mate of mine phoned me up last night, to share his delight with me….

He always calls me a Right Northern Labour Bastard

But he knows I didn’t vote and so of course I said nice things to him about like the Tories might not be so bad after all….

And after around an hour of conversations between him and me and my wife (half the time seperately or we would both be bored shitless….

He gives my wife a job

Find out if She has a Husband or Boyfriend

Well Of Course We Both Know Who He Fancies Like Rotten

It is The Singer in The Band

I thought

No Fucking Chance

Tony

Glenn,

I suggest you apply for the job of moderator of Craig Murray’s website

But don’t expect to get paid anything, and then when you are deleting things from people which you didn’t even read properly but thought they probably didn’t conform to the editorial policy of the website…

You will Resign because everyone hates you – except the management of course.

But you will have still done it for nothing.

You will have had no reward and you won’t actually have achieved anything

I am retired

I am a lot older than you

Get out and Do Something Useful Instead of Spending All Your Time On The Internet

Tony

@ Chris, who said:-

” Craig, you will end up disappointed. I think we’ve all seen this before. A party gains power; some policies or agreements seem good, some not so. The tendency of the believer is to forgive the bad – or put it down to expediency or compromise – and cling to the perceived good. It doesn’t work. Thousands forgave the 1997 labour party many things because we believed in the party and (Ha Ha) principles. We were betrayed, as will you be.

When Clegg first appeared, Orange Book in hand, you had your New Labour moment. To believe anything else is to cling to a political hope that is nothing more than a warm, fuzzy, illusion.”

So true. Craig may yet learn. But, he will be weeping and moaning in the very near future.

Lets face it

Most of The Posters Here are On The Fucking Dole and Have Been On The Dole For Years

I Saw My Lad’s P60 and All The Tax He is Paying To Support You Lazy Cunts

I Now Have To Say

Eat The Rich

(I have redecorated our front room since I posted this in America this Morning – and maybe fixed my computer)

What The Fuck Have You Done?

tony_opmoc [Moderator] 14 hours ago

2 people liked this.

The drugs and the television and the junk food and the guns and the wars are all a part of the cull.

We’ve all been brainwashed, not to live healthy lives and achieve great things, but to sit at the table and stuff our brains and our bodies until we explode all over each other.

Instead we should Eat The Rich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIo3NMpH-84

People listen to me in America and they delete hardly anything

Tony

Tony, you’re a great bloke and everything, and I think you have a very good heart. You often say things I agree with a great deal. I’d like to have a pint with you some day.

I don’t want to be a moderator, I don’t want there to be posts here that need deleting. That’s why I’m asking that you might consider kind of easing off on these sorts of posts about bands, your misses, your local and so on in the most current thread when people are trying to talk on topic.

That’s all.

maybe we just cant operate without a little hope and break now and then, to give it a try and say ok maybe we can work with this a while. Blair broke it, Gordon was plain odd, a few wise ones still might hold out some hope for Obama, though he looks fake and empty now too. Maybe enough people just wont try and deal with the truth of the military and financial persuasions which relentlessly lead us into a more and more competitive, violent and scarce world.

I really dont know, but i know its a terrible waste of life in modern times.

“…to me constitute a radical change for the better in the political possibilities for our country…”

And of torture and war? I think the foreign policy is actually FAR more significant than the doemstic polciy, but most people are quite selfish and only look mostly inwards.

“Safeguards against the misuse of anti-terrorism legislation.” Livni will be pleased.

Sure I claimed dole in Oldham when I was 18/19 for about 9 months when I was trying to get a job after university

And I claimed dole again when I was 27/28 when I lost my job in Manchester

But I have never claimed anything from the Tax Payer or The Government since Norman Tebbit told me to get on my bike and get a job…

O.K. – My Daughter got her EMA and her Grant – but that is only because I am retired and my pension is so low

I still pay tax though

Tony

Policy declaration:

“1) War will continue. We will do nothing to stop it. We WILL massacre more people and help keep impoverished hundreds of millions”

…

“243) We will aim towards reduction in levels of vegi-abuse. For too long, no legislation has sought to protect the rights of the tomato.”

Analyst:

“Hourray! The civil rights for the tomato’s will be strengthened by this government.”

“Here’s another good one:

“The only difference between Bush and Hitler is that Hitler was elected.”

Kurt Vonnegut, 1922-2007.”

It was sad to see Kurt Vonnegut go utterly senile towards the end of his life. You don’t have to be a Bush supporter to know that comparing him to Hitler is utterly fatuous.

angrysoba at May 13, 2010 3:00 AM

He was far from that.

A great and wise “man without a country” (his last work – try reading it).

Angry: Of course there isn’t any real comparison between Dubbya and Hitler. The former was a figurehead of the establishment, who didn’t have a clue what he was doing or why he was there. Look up the 14 defining features of fascism, however, and you’ll see quite fair comparisons between the regimes behind them.

The Tories have absolutely no idea how bad things can be for a 16 year old kid who tells his Mum he is Gay

He gets thrown out of his home, and someone like my Daughter asks him back to our home….

And explains all the circumstances

So I contact his Mum 3 months after he has been staying in our home…(She Knew He Was Safe and Where He Was)

He needs his Birth Certificate and His Passport and I am taking him with my Daughter to Social Security if You Don’t Let Him Come Home To You – You Are His Mum

He Needs His EMA

And I am throwing him out, because I have another friend who’s wife has chucked him out…

My daughter just blows me away

She is not Gay. She just Looks After Her Friends Like Her Brother and His Girlfriend Did..when they were Teenagers…

This is sort of kind of now or in the fairly recent past

The Kids Blow Me Away – They Are Just So Nice To Each Other

My Wife was a Registered Child Minder and we have both been through all the Police Checks

Tony

We have to build our communities from the ground up

My wife an I are immigrants

We come from Lancashire…

But we thought we should export our Northern English Culture

Down South

We haven’t lost our accents

We just always thought of our house as a home of love

A place of Sanctuary sometimes for those in need

But always with a smile and a sense of humour when sometimes we had to ask the Police and Social Services To Come Round

(Which to their Credit They were Completely Brilliant)

If The Tories Try and Destroy This Basic Human Support Structure in The Poorest Areas of Our Country

Then All Hell will Break Loose

FFS We must not become like Americans

Tony

“5 Ways to Achieve World Peace and Prosperity — Yes, It’s Possible”

No one would reply to this Article on Alternet in America and they get over 70,000 unique visitors a day

to their website

Some of them post here…

Anyway I said this

tony_opmoc [Moderator] 16 hours ago

2 people liked this.

That’s great, but far from making any progress since January 1941, the human race has gone in entirely the wrong direction. We’ve not only completed one World War, which resulted in us starting off the process of creating nuclear weapons that can kill us all several times over, but we are now in the midst of another.

And the current World War is not one between nations, its one between the Evil, Rich and Powerful 99% of the Rest of The World.

Despite our vastly superior numbers, we are like 997 sheep in a field, and all of us are being rounded up by the 3 Dogs and heading direct to the Slaughter House without barely a Bahhh.

Tony

(Edited by author 15 hours ago)

I don’t remember editing it

The American Soaps Like Lost and FastForward…

I keep having to try and explain to people

That it is All Made Up

Someone just wrote a ridiculous story that no one could give a fuck about any more because they keep going backwards and forwards in time and re-writing the script as they go along…

So the stupid English Cunts that they killed off Years Ago…

Come Back After Death To Haunt Them

If You want to watch anything Decent

Then The British Soaps

Shameless and Skins

Blow The Yanks Away

Our Soaps Are All Based on Real Life

If We Kill A Character Played By an American Actor

We Bury Him and We Do Not Bring Him Back To Life

Soft Twats

We might let him play again though in a different part in a different story – if he is any good

(and the same applies to American Girls)

Tony

Hang on a minute!!!!

“fixed term parliaments”?????!!?!?!?

For this shower?

Does it not look self-serving at all that a fragile minority government of the Tories would say, “Well to stop our government from falling in six months lets make it THE LAW that it cannot fall for five years!”?

If I were in England now, I’d be descending on parliament with a pitchfork and a board with a nail in it.

Tony, I don’t think that Lost is a soap. It’s a fantasy drama.

As for being true to life, Patrick Moore said Eastenders was true to life but so is diahoreah but he didn’t want to see diahoreah on TV.

Well William Hauge is already talking about atttacking Iran

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3888870,00.html

Will you broadly support WW3 as well

Not quite what he said though, is it?

“Unlike the Liberal Democrats, we don’t say you rule out for ever any military action. However, we are not calling for that. The way I usually put it is that Iran getting nuclear bomb may be a calamity, although military action may be calamitous. This is why we need peaceful pressure. But to simply take all military efforts off the table is reducing the pressure on Iran.”

He’s called Hague the Vague for a reason.

The drumbeats for war grow louder and ever louder.

The simple fact is Iran does not and cannot have a ‘nuclear bomb’ for ten years even IF it wanted to have one. There is no evidence of Iran wanting to, or building a ‘nuclear bomb’, source: IAEA.

The west wants control of Iranian oil wells just like they wanted control of Iraqi oil wells and are using the same tactics to achieve their goals. Only the weak minded are being taken in again, there seems to be many off them.

Venezuela next on list.

Drumbeats for war are growing louder and so are the voices of our young unemployed.

And mine for that matter. I will not take the assurances of those who call themselves our representatives, with their talk of bringing power back to the local, both of them, if they can not have the decensy to give us a choice of options that includes proportional systems. That is absolutely outrageous jibberish.

To go straight back to self serving after this election and see the good and best interest of oneself and one’s carreer, first and foremost, before we, the cashcows who will be battered with service cuts and rising taxes, will get any benefit from their horse trading and mongering, is enough to make me revolt.

Don’t know about you, but this continuous whipping of the public has to stop, whats good enough for the Scots and Irish should be good enough for us.

PS CRAIG, SEND THAT KEY BACK BEFORE YOU LOOSE IT.

Technicolour, I’d like to think – in fact, I pray – that you’re right that the British people wouldn’t allow their govt to launch another war. However, the British people were overwhelmingly and vociferously opposed to the last one (Iraq) – millions marched, remember – and sadly this did not stop the govt from proceeding regardless.

The only potential difference this time around might be if the unions engineered a general strike, it being a Tory/LD Govt rather than a Labour one. Unfortunately, many of the union leaders are likely to be aligned with the interests of the security state – nothing new there, if one thinks of (allegedly) Vic Feather and (allegedly) Joe Gormley, etc. – and so are unlikely to engineer such a measure. People do not have enough ‘solidarity’ to strike en masse – with or without unions – on their own. The Govt would send in the militarised police and even the Army (disguised, as in the Miners’ Strike as police officers) – which they did not do with the hauliers in 2000 (as the hauliers are big business and so were treated with kid gloves). But it would be a spectacle and might tilt the benefit ratio against war. Only such militant action has any chnace of stopping another war in such circumstances. The hard state needs to be induced to crack down so hard, the majority of people become politicised against the hard state and its barking, lapdog media organs.

The Poll Tax Riots, muliplied tenfold – rocks raining-down on the roof of Parliament and the Army with plastic/rubber-bullets – is the only tactic of any use in that situation.

Their pals in the media will re-commence the drum-beats. Can you hear the drum-beat? Put your ear to the ground, close your eyes and listen carefully…

I hope that I’m completely wrong. I will be the first to raise (not doff!) my hat if I am.

And Jack Straw the biggest cheat in Blackburns electoral effort, the electoral law breaker is throwing his bone into the leadership stew, so he says with lost of gooble di gook and slimy eel talk this morning.

He has increased his vote byall the dirty tricks in the book and the electroal commission jokers do not want to know about it. One third of postal ballot applicants never send their votes back, why did they go through the bother to make an application, tut tut.

The problem with distant drumbeats is you can imagine them. I see no sign at all the neo-cons who want to attack Iran have the upper hand on this issue either in Washington or London just at the minute.

‘just at the minute’

That could all change in just a ‘minute’.

There are two articles on the BBC World News webpage today about Afghan opium production. Both mention the Taliban, ne1ther mentions Karzai’s brother.

When the call comes to No.10 that the US and Israel are about to bomb the sh*t out of Iran, how do you think the UK Con/Lib coalition will cope?

My guess is that Hague and Cameron will say ‘OK then’ and head to the Club for drinkypoos and dinner. Clegg will have to face an army of LibDem MPs and supporters who will have very major concerns.

How will the numbers work out then? The LibDems would not allow themselves to abstain to wave the Tories through.

I bet 5,- that Iran will be attacked before the year is out, with or without drumbeats.

‘New Scuds for lebanon’ was just one of those destabilising notes that have eminated form Mossad of late, absolutley in the same mindset and paranoic frame than the 45 minute claim.

The drums are also beating in Pakistan, were the IsI is far more in control of affairs than the US would ever let us know, they are far better at looking after their nukes, a contingent Israel fears and hence is training pilots and other forces in Kashmir and India.

Norwich elected a Lib Dem Simon Wright and Conservative Cloe Smith, as yet the two have not been seen together, but will hopefully sort out some of the local discrepancies that exist between the two parties. Lets see what happens to the unitary status of Norwich, just agreed before the election, will the Lib dems be still in support of it? the coming weeks will make us all aware locally that this national ‘breakfast to Cameron’ might also translate to a local derisory attitude, it might worsen local politics, rather than support it.

Playing at coalitions, when the electoral basis for them to grow still comes from unfair FPTP bias, is all very well. Indidcations are that this relationship was based on buttering up an inexperienced partner, with nothing in the offing for us at all.

Should have had you in the negotiating team Craig.

PS KEY…..

Speaking of neo-cons, Douglas Murray (any relation, Craig?) is outraged that “A party of nutty conspiracy theorists has just been brought into government”

http://tinyurl.com/2b9bpf7

Craig

The reason that neocons in London didn’t have the upper hand is because Brown didn’t allow them to have it!

But well-known progressives Hague and Fox are upping the ante for military action, the very first moment they get into govt.

And Hague is going to Wash DC to tell the Americans off for not doing enough.

I wonder who is pulling Hague’s string. Clearly there are those in London who want to put pressure on the US.

I wonder what Clegg thinks about all this. He has a responsibility to ensure those other progressives he’s supporting don’t regress…

Indeed well-known progressive Liam Fox says that 2010 is the year in which Iran must be confronted.

“In an interview with today’s Sunday Telegraph, Shadow Defence Secretary Liam Fox warns that 2010 is the year in which Iran’s nuclear ambitions must be confronted. Unlike the Government which rules out force, Dr Fox says that the military option must remain on the table.”

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2010/02/liam-fox-says-military-force-must-remain-an-option-in-2010s-confrontation-with-iran.html

Clegg must be in agreement. Collective responsibility and all. He’s both in cabinet and on that national security committee Dave dreamed up

As I say, I hope you’re right, Craig. I see Liam Fox as a particularly suspicious character – but perhaps it’s because of his name, his Parkinsonian demeanour (no disrespect to those with Parkinson’s Disease) or the fact that I’ve watched his inexorable rise through the ranks of demonic host. He’s a Glasgow hard-man a la John Reid.

Angrysoba, it looks as though Douglas Murray is attacking the Lib Dems in an entirely predictable manner in order to begin to undermine and call into question confidence in their ability to wield power.

Dougie Murray really ought to look long and hard into a mirror before he accuses anyone of being “crazy”, “nutty”., etc. He specifically attacks Jenny Tonge and assumes a overtly pro-Israeli state stance in his Daily Telegraph piece.

This represents a statement which is indicative of the beginnings of a jostling for power and influence in this Coalition Govt.

We should expect much more of this type of dynamic.

Craig you say you can’t here ht drums of war with Iran. They have been played out for the last 6 years and are getting louder. Hilary Clinton and Robert Gates are bloodthirsty hawks. And the fascist Avagdor Lieberman is now trying to expand any war to include Syria and North Korea as well as Iran

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10621598

Ron Proser came to St Andrews University last week ans was given a big spread in the Courier to repeat Israeli propaganda and again beat the drums of war http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2010/05/05/newsstory15001569t0.asp

As you can see no counterpoint was allowed and no letters answering him back have been printed.

When war starts you can’t say you didn’t know

I would suggest Craig you resign from the Fib Dems and join the Green Party. If not your will become like Ian dale and Guido Fawkes just another propagandist for the Tory party whether you admit it or not.

Senator Joe Lieberman, late of the Democratic party seems to think Iran needs to be nuked.

There’s definitely a campaign growing to put pressure on Obama, and it’s obvious that Hague and Fox are central to that.

On the other hand that horrible Gordon Brown ruled out military action. What a wimp!

So I suppose if you favour military action, this is progress of a sort.

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/lieberman-iran-nuclear-attack/2010/04/12/id/355512?s=al&promo_code=9BDE-1

Terry,

Yes, and Gordon Brown stopped the Iraq war too, no doubt. We all know Liebermann is a mad Zionist nutter – so what?

Blair was still pushing for an attack on Iran in his evidence to Chilcot. Of course there are forces – pro-Israeli, big oil, the arms industry – itching for an attack on Iran. But I can tell you for sure that the Lib Dems would not support it. I do not disagree that Brown was less prone to this kind of thing than Blair – but he did not restrain Blair either.

“He specifically attacks Jenny Tonge and assumes a overtly pro-Israeli state stance in his Daily Telegraph piece.”

Well, Jenny Tonge was the person who suggested that an inquiry be set up to investigate the Israeli field hospital in Haiti along the lines of “They’re probably doing nothing wrong but shouldn’t we check just to make sure?” Just asking questions.

I think she got her information from some random guy on You Tube who had been just asking questions.

“Hilary Clinton and Robert Gates are bloodthirsty hawks. And the fascist Avagdor Lieberman is now trying to expand any war to include Syria and North Korea as well as Iran”

I didn’t realize Avigdor Lieberman was here. I don’t think he wants war with North Korea though.

Do you remember all that news when Israel blew up what they said was a nuclear reactor in Syria. Did Syria complain to the UN about the destruction of any facilities? As far as I remember they complained only that Israeli jets flew in and dropped munitions to escape.

But it seems the Israelis bombed a reactor and some say the technology came from North Korea. So, I wonder why the Syrian government didn’t get irate about the buildings the Israelis destroyed.

Terry,

I agree with your comments regarding the large number of ordinary Labour supporters that were opposed to the Iraq war and continue to oppose war, and the enthusiastic support for war by the Conservatives.

I also agree with Tony’s comment at 10:15 AM. A Commons vote supporting a US attack upon Iran seems considerably less likely with this coalition and Labour in opposition, if Labour MPs have learned anything from Iraq and Chilcot.

Terry

And it is downright stupid for you to say that Clegg must agree with something Liam Fox said in February – something Liam Fox said in February is not coalition policy, just as all the things the Tories said on inheritance tax is not coalition policy.

Craig

Brown wouldn’t have initiated the drumbeats of war.

But it’s very clear that both Hague and Fox are hyping up the possibility of a military attack. Clegg must know all about this. He’s there in cabinet. He’s on the security committee.

He’s supporting the hype. He doesn’t have to support the attack itself because Britain won’t be involved.

This is a campaign to put pressure on Obama and he is involved in that.

Craig

Liam Fox repeated all this outside the MoD building as he was going to meet his staff.

It was on the telly.

Hague said the same thing in explanation of his trip to see Hillary. Again on the telly.

This has clearly been planned. It’s almost the first thing they say and do once they get into govt.

I know about it. You can’t argue that Clegg doesn’t know about it.

He’s been in cabinet and at the security meeting.

Clark

Britain doesn’t have to support an attack on Iran in parliament. They won’t be involved.

They just have to run around hyping it up.

It’s amazing it’s the first thing Hague and Fox do immediately they receive their seals of office.

‘Lifting the basic tax allowance towards £10,000 and restoring the state pension link to earnings are also major changes.’

Maybe not?.

I am waiting for the moment when they say… ‘Oh!, my God, we have had a look at the books and its far worse then we thought, the cuts will be far deeper and more severe measures are in order. All Labours fault, nothing to do with us. You can’t blame us for this.’

Yes, we can. You are the main cause of it. Labour your willing junior partners.

‘I Will Support This Government’

What this con-dem government. The one with Michael Howard in it. He can now say…I am going to hurt you.

To be fair though, at least Clegg has been saying the right things if this rather hysterical but amusing analysis is anything to go by:

” The Liberal-Democrats, led by the new Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, are the most anti-Israeli party among Britain’s big three. Their attitude to foreign affairs often appears to draw its inspiration from the NGO community and the likes of the UN Human Rights Council.

Clegg has warned of “saber rattling” over Iran’s nuclear program and of Britain “sleepwalking” its way into a military conflict on the matter. His party is in favor of the universal jurisdiction laws. It also contains people such as the infamous Baroness Jenny Tonge, who has gone on record as saying that if she had to live like the Palestinians she might even become a suicide bomber herself. Recently, she suggested that allegations that Israeli medical teams in Haiti were harvesting the bodily organs of Haitian earthquake victims were sufficiently credible as to merit investigation. Clegg reprimanded her for that, but did not kick her out of the party, many of whose members support her views.

Re. Clark’s “Britain doesn’t have to support an attack on Iran in parliament. They won’t be involved.”

We are providing the airbase in Diego Garcia from which the bombers will fly – the nukes are already there on our soil.

Maybe it does not require a UK Act of Parliament to authorise the bombing, but I feel sure the UK Parliament could and should take a view on the US and Israel using our soil from which to launch such a disastrous nuclear attack.

well we shall see what we shall see..

i remember when blair hit downing street there was a lot of froth at the time about a new britain, new way beacons of hope, blar blar blar. So what happened? George W came along and blair joined his gang, the rest is history.

I was just concerned that the tv commentators, Nick Robinson particularly (didn’t he used to be Brains in thunderbirds ?) was so keen to tell us that no sooner had cameroon set foot in number 10 that Obama (bin laden) was on the blower inviting him over to world domination hq in the summer to discuss his plans for our country. So rule nothing out! Cameroon did what he had to do and if that meant getting into bed with another ex-public school-boy then that had to be so…

That’s a good point Tony.

I’m sure Clegg would have difficulty having knowledge of an operation from there.

But as the nation tittered its way through the first coalition press conference, thousands of grassroots Lib Dem activists were this morning still sitting in front of their television sets gaping in abject horror.

Anne Hobbs, whose husband Roy is secretary of the South Lincolnshire Liberal Democrat Association, said: “His bottom jaw just kept sinking lower and lower and then he let out this pathetic little squeak and dropped his cup of tea.

“He’s got some very limited movement back in his left arm, but he is basically catatonic. I’m going to have to sellotape some gauze over his mouth otherwise he’ll end up choking on a wasp.”

“The IAEA’s first report on Syria in November said the site bore features that would resemble those of an undeclared nuclear reactor and Damascus must cooperate more with U.N. inspectors to let them draw conclusions. Syria denies covert nuclear activity.

Thursday’s report said Damascus, in a letter to the IAEA this month, had repeated its position that the desert complex targeted by Israel in September 2007 was a conventional military building only.

But Syria, it said, was still failing to back up its stance with documentation or by granting further access for IAEA sleuths to the bombed location and three others cited in U.S. intelligence handed to the U.N. watchdog last year.”

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE51I45R20090219

Clegg and his negotiating team have taken the Tory/neocons shilling. If truth be known its a lot more then a shilling, a lot more. They are in for five years,they have made sure off that, no way can they be got out. They know whats coming, they have protected themselves.

‘further access for IAEA’

Yes,they have been there. It has been already established that there’s no nuclear material there, never was.

Thanks for pointing that our angrysoba.

“The British Ministry of Defence has said in the past that the US government would need permission to use Diego Garcia for offensive action”. – Sunday Herald 10 March.

Craig & or lawyers: How have they managed to change the criteria for dissolving parliament/a vote of no confidence? How? Which legislation provides them with the ability to do this?

” IAEA inspectors found other unexplained uranium particles during a routine inspection of Syria’s miniature neutron source reactor, a research reactor outside Damascus that had been declared to the IAEA. Syrian authorities twice tried to explain the presence of these particles, but IAEA inspectors found their explanations inadequate, believing instead that they raised concerns about possible links to the particles found at Al Kibar. Although Syria allowed IAEA inspectors to return to the research reactor this month, it continues to spurn IAEA requests to visit Al Kibar, citing national “sovereignty.”"

“The IAEA’s latest report on the Syria investigation was the first released by the new IAEA director-general, Yukiya Amano, who took office in July 2009. It was blunt and forthright, clearly restating that the destroyed facility had all the characteristics of a nuclear reactor and openly questioning whether Syria’s declarations were correct and complete.

The Syrian government denies that the Al Kibar facility housed a nuclear reactor. At first, it claimed that the uranium particles found at the site came from the bombs Israel had used to destroy it, an explanation the IAEA dismissed as having a “low probability.” Then, at a recent IAEA Board of Governors’ meeting, Syrian Ambassador Bassam Sabbagh claimed that Israeli planes sprinkled the particles over the site — an equally specious explanation that cannot account for the particles found at the research reactor outside Damascus.”

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/66214/andrew-j-tabler/how-to-react-to-a-reactor

‘bore features’ ‘characteristics’

What does that mean?. A lot of spin (we know who by) and so far NO real substance.

Says it all.

angrysoba – why is it that the possibility that Syria might have a nuclear reactor is a concern, but that fact that Israel already has one and somewhere between dozens and hundreds of nuclear weapons isn’t?

And how could Syria or Iran getting nuclear deterrents threaten countries that already have either nuclear deterrents or allies that have nuclear deterrents?

It couldn’t – it could only deter Israeli or US attacks on them.

“Tony, you’re a great bloke and everything, and I think you have a very good heart. You often say things I agree with a great deal. I’d like to have a pint with you some day.

I don’t want to be a moderator, I don’t want there to be posts here that need deleting. That’s why I’m asking that you might consider kind of easing off on these sorts of posts about bands, your misses, your local and so on in the most current thread when people are trying to talk on topic.”

It’s been said before by others, but Tony doessn’t seem to care and keeps on devaluing the blog with his self-indulgent off-topic rambling.

This thread was about the Con-Lib Coalition. How on earth did Syria enter the discussion? You can get really beautiful mosaique boxes in Damascus. I know a great qanun (sort of a horizontal harp) player, a musical genius she is, who is from Damascus.

Syria, the road to Aleppo…

Hmn…

Was it because I checked and critiqued Douglas Murray’s overtly pro-Israeli state stance in his article in The Daily Telegraph?

Ah!

The Middle East is obviously an ionising topic: I can feel the gamma rays… come off the screen.

Those who hope and believe, that this government will pursue policies that are anything more than cosmetically different from those of New Labour, are going to be very, very, disappointed indeed.

Why? Primarily because the country isn’t really “governed” by the politicians at all, but by the “market.”

It’s sad to see how many people honestly think that Gordon Browne is responsible for the dire state the economy is in, and that some other leader would have done things differently.

Surely it’s obvious, with the new merging of the Liberals and the Conservatives, that we don’t, in reality have a multi-party system at all, but rather a multi-faction system?

New Labour could easily have joined this government too, but this merging woul have revealed the true nature of the Westminster system for what it is; one-party rule, a monopoly, disguised as a democracy.

Not wanting to divert matters further, here’s that Syrian qanun player, Maya Youssef. She’s conservatoire Western Classical-trained as well as Arabic music-trained:

http://www.kanunplayer.com/

This may seem like a very simple statement, but I feel it’s crucial that it be stated. It’s important, I always think, to remember when we discuss ‘The Middle East’ and we discuss the possibility of ‘bombing the Middle East’ (again) that we are talking about people. All kinds of people – people like Maya.

What does “Ending of storage of internet and email records without good reason” mean?

Does it mean that blanket data retention of communications data will stop? Or is this done for “good reasons”?

“I will support this government.”

I won’t.

With every significant government post given to Tory hardliners, and with no way to bring down the government against the wishes of the Conservatives, I don’t believe for a moment that the “agreement” will be honoured except in the most token way. Economic policy will continue to be driven by “the market” (as it was under Blair). We will continue to support Israel in everything it does (as under Blair). We will continue to support dictators such as Karimov as “valuable allies” in the “War” on “Terror”, exactly as under Blair (indeed, with Ricketts as National Security Advisor, probably more so). The anti-trade union laws which Thatcher introduced and Blair

so admired will remain. Large companies will be exempted from the need to undergo Health & Safety inspections, and I’m sure the families of the resulting dead workers will consider it was worthwhile because we won’t have a third runway at Heathrow.

I wish you were right, Craig, but as far as I can see the only difference beteen this bunch and Blair is that they haven’t been caught out in any obvious lies yet. But early days.