What have you got against Jacob Rees-Mogg?

Thanks Craig for your support for Gary – it is very much appreciated.

The Nazi party has changed ever since they got rid of that Hitler guy! Let’s ignore 19 years of mass unemployment, Falklands war, supporting Pinochet and Reagan, the decling in working class life expectancy, the destruction of manufacturing industries and the promotion of the casino economy. After all it was a long time ago!!

‘As I said before, if they halt the extradition of Gary McKinnon to the US, that would be a good early sign.’

But you will accept that if it happens as well craig. Just like all the rest you have accepted from the tories and all that is to come.

‘On Being a Government Supporter’

On Being a Tory Supporter from here on in craig.

It will be interesting to see what comes of it all. I have to say, though, that I really don’t share this fascination with the idea of an elected House of Lords or fixed-term Parliaments. I don’t see anything good coming from either one: so-called ‘democratic’ elections are no guarantee of good governance, and not being able to force an election deprives us of an opportunity to get rid of Government early should we choose to. Instead, you’re pushing for the kind of political miasma that exists in the US.

We have one fully elected House, and it’s sovereign; that’s sufficient. The other House should act as a deliberative body, and that feature is destroyed by introducing the circus that is an election.

Well done for standing by you principles. I disagree with you on spending cuts though. In times of recession, public sector spending props up the economy and keeps the private sector going. True, some people may be overpaid, their jobs may even be useless. However, cut their jobs and you stop them spending, leading to losses in the private sector as well, rising unemployment and downward pressure on wages, particularly low-paid unskilled labour. It won’t just be overpaid bureaucrats who will lose their jobs, it will also be nurses, teachers, and care workers. Do you think the Tories will clamp down on non-domiciled tax exiles or grossly overpaid investment bankers? I’m sceptical.

Craig Murray

Is this blog going to be a ‘Blogoir’ blog now.

Goetterdaemmerung, three cheers to accountants and tax avoiders, the duplication of services, quango’s with no understanding of what they are doing, PFI agent provocateurs who are always out for a good hyst that makes the taxpayer bleed for decades to come.

A regressive drugspolicy, a retraction of social values, more war in Afghanmisatn and beyond, all those Tories who are friends of Israel will rejoice, they have hooked the party they least liked, ‘keeping one’s enemy closer’.

I hope that they can work together, but my guts say NO, they can’t. Pragmatic politics is not a british strongpoint.

Nobnody should feel that they have to be rushed into a decision, better to get it right than to half cock some of the important issues.

STV is what the politicians really owe us. They have ab/used and degraded the system to such an extent that trust has gone and respect has to be earned, being fair to voters and give them a choice should come natural to them, regardless of party or vested interests. Off… from their high horses.

Taxpayers are taking the economic strain, the least they can do is make sure that we get a fair electoral system.

I agree with you about Sharon Shoesmith as far as it being unfair is concerned. Ed Balls clearly knew little about social work and was responding to media pressure. However your comment: ‘the large majority of social welfare, youth and community oriented jobs in local government should simply be cut as they do no good’ is rather extreme. I wonder what has led you to make this claim?

Proportional Representation, the Liberal Holy Grail, is the electoral equivalent to the renutrification of shit: give us some seats in exchange for all our second, third, fourth place losers ?” well, hey, they all did better than the BNP and Screaming Lord Sutch didn’t they?

Nick Clegg having led the Liberals to a reduced seat count, and having earned the hate and derision of all and sundry by his bizarre attempts to get into bed with both the Tories and NuLabor at virtually the same time has only one option remaining. He must buy a revolver and shoot himself.

Then some sensible Liberal person, if there is such a thing, can announce that the Liberals will vote no confidence in a Labor administration and that they will decide whether to support a Conservative administration on an issue by issue basis. It will then be up to the Liberals when the next election is called, and on what issue it is called.

Get ready for the Con-Dem Nation!

‘No chance of ANYKIND of PR now.’

Official Labour Spokesman on Sky news.

There is absolutly no obligation on Lib Dems to go to bed with any, so I hope they continue to hop between beds for their own long term interests:)

The SNP are about to get a LOT more seats, at the next election. Thanks lib dems.

It is not at all novel to see Liberal ministers in government in Scotland. We should never expect governments to have ‘ethical foreign policies’. They never will.

“…if they halt the extradition of Gary McKinnon to the US, that would be a good early sign”.

Yes, if one result is a halt to his extradition then I for one would be reasonably content.

Craig, good on you.

It was only ever going to be Lib-Con or a Con minority government (as the City has known all along).

YNWA

Craig it is unlike you to be so depressingly sensible. While reading this and nodding along, Theresa May came on the telly being her incredibly irritating self and I realise this is going to be very hard to get used to.

I have to wonder whether the 30% LD support at the height of Cleggmania would have held firm with AV as no one need have feared wasting their vote or letting a Labservative candidate in by voting LD.

Even if one (or both!) Labservative party leadership promise STV for the Commons I doubt they could get their MPs to vote for it. AV is the best we can get I think until there are enough non Labservative MPs to force it through.

STV for the Lords should certainly be pursued.

Halting McKinnon’s extradition is a start, but the important thing is to repeal the one-sided legislation that makes it possible in the first place. Are the Conservatives prepared to restore any of the liberties taken by New “Labour”. The ID card ought to be a dead duck now, seeing as both parties opposed it, but only the LibDems were against the introduction of the biometric passport too. The Tories support its introduction, scheduled for 2012. All UK citizens who want a passport from then will have their fingerprints added to the government database although they have committed no crime. Once the majority have been added this way, the likelihood is that the rest will be forced to add their fingerprints to the database too based on the usual divide and rule principle.

If nothing else let’s hope for the dismantling of the database state. That would make it all worthwhile. As for spending cuts, can we start with the space cadet getting 100k for 3 days a week at the electoral commission, well past time for her to return to earth.

Thanks to Alan Campbell for the Con-Dem Nation. Biggest laugh I’ve had today.

Brian and Owen, I partially caught a snippet of news suggesting that David Davis would be brought into the cabinet, presumably at the insistance of the Lib-Dems. I didn’t hear the whole piece and wonder if the may be any truth in this.

Certainly I would welcome this re. civil liberties.

It’s going to be strange but at some point under PR we would have to face the maturity and compromise of exercising real power, albeit in a coalition.

But lots of progressive policies that can be achieved in the name of liberty and enablement.

And, of course, we are free to exercise our inner radical in the campaign for Fair Votes to get that referendum to open up to multiple choice or even a national ‘write in’ for STV

UncleFester at May 11, 2010 7:03 PM

Some wag said it on Radio 5 Live a couple of hours ago too – great minds…

Although severe job cuts in the public sector may be unpalitable I fear they will have to be done and it should be the useless non-jobs that will have to go along with a good few quangos and consultants.

It’s true that these ex-public sector workers will not be able to continue spending as they did and this will have a knock on effect on the economy, however the money they were spending was borrowed money and by and large this spending on public services did not create future real wealth. It was this extra cash floating around which helped to push up house prices and generally inflate the GDP.

Brown often referred to this public sector spending as “investment”, it was no such thing and as such he showed himself not to understand anything about business and commerce let alone wealth creation.

Owen Lee Hugh-Mann

Under the lib dems you will have to let government have your fingerprints if you want a british passport.

Cameron’s committment to NATO and the ‘war’ in Afghanistan.

Obama has a wry smile on his face knowing Cameron has emerged from the political fog of a ‘hung’ process that slowed his march into Number 10. The dragging of feet by Europe over Afghanistan will now receive a boost from the Conservative war-lords who are now rubbing hands with glee.

Britain can now lead the way and amplify the ‘special relationship’ by supplying military trainers, base building contractors, MI5 agents and foreign office civilians to bolster the hopeless task of standing up a vast effective Afghan military (which that impoverished country has no way of affording) and an incorruptable police force (an oxymoron when it comes to Afghanistan) so critical to dominance in Asia.

The war effort is growing under the political spotlight and a massive $30B surge is taking place as an American stop-gap.

Cameron’s real job is to boot hegemony in the arse and compel/inspire/cajole Europe into supporting NATO and prepare for a new front with Iran.

War my friends is just around the corner. The elites are cracking the champagne tonight.

The police want to have access to them to put in on their fingerprint data bank.

Think I agree about David Davis re: civil liberties.

I know there will be some tensions with the tories regarding Europe, but I think the replacement of the human rights act with some sort of bill of rights in this country, which prevents the imposition of big brother legislation in the future, would be something that could unite many people of all political leanings.

brian at May 11, 2010 7:20 PM

Agreed but we do have the 1689 Bill of Rights Act and Magna Carta. It’s just too bad the way Nu-Lab ignored them.

Wonder if this new alliance in government will influence the findings of Chilcot…

I’m appalled at this. Where are your principles which we have all admired along with your stands for justice?

Goodbye and good luck.

Mary, please don’t go!

TOLD YOU SO…

Come on – who is going to buy me the first pint?

Coalition Lib/Tory – told you so, now I won’t have to buy anyone one…but please come on, just one pint…please?

Courtenay Barnett

Get yourself down to the city of london, the stockbroker boys are running around buying ferrari cars and £1200 bottles of champers to toast the lib dems.

ScouseBilly 7:24

Good point, let’s reenact them, let’s have another bank holiday to celebrate them.

“” 7:38

Appreciate the sentiment, but alreadyit looks like the Libs are going to stop the IHT give away to the wealthy, good work already.

mary

All the best sweetheart.

Don’t go Mary. Wait and see what happens. I’m sure that within 24 hours of the new government Craig will be fulminating again.

Have one on me, Courtenay…

How the world has turned upside down. Craig Murray a Tory supporter!! Well I never!

Craig’s hatred of Jack Straw and getting out of power has unhinged his political balance and common sense.

That’s right, anonymous coward.

When all else fails, play the “loony” card:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJelid_QVb0

ScouseBilly, are you now spreading pro-Scientology crap? It’s not enough that you believe in silly 911 conspiracies – you’re now pushing Tom Cruise crap?

So tell me about Bigfoot and Roswell! What about the moon landings?

‘anonymous coward’

Scousecoward

Was it not you that was asking OTHER people to give someone on here ‘a good kicking’, not upto yourself, coward

Interesting, eddie, don’t you think? When I suggested to Alfred a few days ago that it would be prudent for him to consider standing on his head in order to view the world in a different light, this was not exactly what I had in mind.

Larry from St. Louis at May 11, 2010 9:12 PM

Hi Larry,

No, that is a profesor of psychology, in praise of Prof. Thomas Szasz’s work and seminal work, The Myth of Mental Illness. Absolutely nothing to do with scientology or Tom Cruise; whether or not they agree is irrelevent.

Watch the video, Larry.

Scousecoward/Larry from St. Louis/Mental Illness

That would explain a lot.

We don’t have much choice but to accept the results of the election and the subsequent coalition negotiations – and i don’t like the results one bit.

Craig – i think you’re being a bit one-sided in seeing all social work as pointless – many social workers do a lot of good.

Would like it if the new government scrapped the upgrade to Trident and looked at some new anglo-French or EU nuclear deterrent in future to spread the costs a bit. The Lib Dems will need to threaten to end the coalition over it to stop the Conservatives going ahead with an upgrade though.

Despite being on the left in general i think the EU needs some kind of nuclear deterrent. CND argue it would only make the EU a target – but having no nuclear weapons didn’t stop Hiroshima or Nagasaki being targets – and isn’t stopping Iran from being one. The only way to stop nuclear war is for every side to have a nuclear deterrent – and Iran is entirely on its own.

If Scotland goes independent it wouldn’t need nuclear weapons – and the UK on it’s own can’t afford them any more.

As to civil liberties i’ve as little time for Blunkett and Reid as you do – but the Conservatives will be just as bad (unless the Lib Dems fight their corner hard)

Lib Dems looking forward to another century in the political wilderness?

don’t see what the Lib Dems have gained from going into coalition without getting a referendum on PR though. AV isn’t going to gain them many seats – and coalition with either main party is going to cost them votes – only PR would make up for that loss and still get them more seats.

When it comes to civil liberties, my own experience aptly demonstrates that a Conservative – Lib/Dem coalition cannot be worse than Labour. Hopefully the new government will value rule of law as a fundamental right and stop toadying to criminals in the high establishment. I’m not holding my breath though.

BBc news

Forget the £10,000 threshold, tories won’t wear it. lib dems have said to tories, OK we will scrap it.

http://order-order.com/2010/05/11/yes-prime-minister/

Your new mates, Craig. Nice one.

Duncan,

Everyone having nuclear weapons does not guarantee no nuclear war, since war can happen by mistake.

No-one having nuclear weapons does on the other hand guarantee no nuclear war, as well as saving many billions of dollars.

It is very disappointing that PR is not on the table… but maybe the Lib-dems can show that the coalitions that may come under future PR can actually work and make it more palletable to the sceptic voters. I’m also hoping that the Lib-dems will neuter the more extreme ideas that may put forward by the Tories, and the comming cuts are as fair as possible across the board.

Mary,

I hope you’ll stay and continue to contribute. Your research is excellent, and will be as important as ever with this change of government.

A new day has dawned, has it not?

Nope.

Night’s just fallen…

Maybe Gary McKinnon can get a rare good night’s sleep for once.

Brown off to make his twenty million now.

How long before his book comes out, anyone know?.

As someone who holds this whole sham democracy of ours in the contempt it deserves I must say that the antics of Clegg and co. have only reinforced that contempt. He/the ‘Liberals’ are nothing better than prostitutes selling themselves to the highest bidder.

Capitalism may be safe for the time being but this disgraceful episode of whoring will sicken many of the electorate and with a bit of luck will bring about the end of the Lib.Dems for good. Then it will be one (party) down, two to go. Viva la Revolution!

Thank goodness Nu-Lab has been emasculated.

Now for the serious work of stripping away their dependents in the public sector.

All its apparatchik’s have left is to display their death throws in the blogosphere – spinning to the end.

Lol

Scousecoward

If you are ever rushed into the mental hospital make sure you have your credit card with you, you are going to need it.

Conservatives and civil liberties? What a nice thought. Let’s wait and see their reaction to the next attack.

Oh for goodness’ sake, all you doomsayers. This is NOT the worst possible outcome. We could have had a Conservative overall majority, or even another five years of Labour (unlikely I admit).

As it is at least we have a change of government – AND – the Lib Dems holding the balance of power. This is actually one of the better of the outcomes that were possible under the current electoral system.

Let’s not count our vultures before they’ve hatched. I’m sure there’ll be plenty to criticize, but there may be some good stuff too.

The lib dems done this when things were good.

They voted to KEEP prescription charges in Scotland for chronic medical conditions.

Examples of chronic medical conditions which are NOT exempt from prescription charges:

Cancer

Multiple Sclerosis

Asthma

Psoriasis

Crohn’s Disease

Schizophrenia

Glaucoma

Arthritis

Chronic Leukaemia

HIV/AIDS

Ulcerative Colitis

Hepatitis C

What will they do in times like these.

chrisentia – you’re right – it could happen by accident. The major threat of that comes from the thousands of nuclear weapons still in the Russian and American arsenals.

It’s a lot more likely to result from one side having nuclear weapons and the other having none though – as in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

(and Iran’s at serious risk of being hit with “tactical” nuclear weapons because it has no nuclear weapons to deter an attack – and because it, like Iraq, has a lot of oil – and American public opinion won’t stand for casualties in a ground occupation like those their military suffered in Iraq.)

Mary,

I understand why you’re going but this blog is the only one I know which has both excellent posts and comments. Your comments are some of the best. If you go then there will be one less person to challenge this corrupted state.

I think Craig gets carried away but he’ll rebound. He doesn’t have a deep knowledge of what’s really going on but he does say:

‘But somehow the system takes good men prisoner.’

He doesn’t ask why this is so. Those in the know know that the UK economy has been dire since I believe the early 90s. Since then there’s been a fight for survival and anything goes. From what I’ve seen the intelligence service and other government agencies have been engaged in all sorts of ‘fundraising’ activities including carousel fraud. Judges bring in perverse decisions to conceal these covert activities. Good men become prisoners because they put their country before justice. In my opinion they are not good men because all countries have to ‘die’ at some point. When there’s corruption at the top it seeps down and the whole country becomes corrupted and human life valueless.

Also we could get rid of all nuclear weapons tommorrow and anyone could rebuild them – and we’d be back in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki scenario where one country has them, the rest don’t and so there’d be a far greater likelihood of nuclear war.

Obama’s charm offensive on a nuclear free world is never going to lead to the US or Russia giving up all their nuclear weapons – it’s a propaganda campaign for sanctions and war on Iran.

Chemical and biological weapons were both banned decades ago – it didn’t stop Saddam being allowed to use them in the 80s, nor did it stop US forces in Iraq using new versions of napalm, or white phosphorus – or US and British forces using Depleted Uranium from 1991 on there.

I don’t like any of that, but it’s the reality.

The only way to guarantee you’re not a target of a nuclear attack is to have nuclear weapons of your own, or else stay out of all foreign wars and be a very small country, part of no larger alliance, like e.g Norway.

So an independent Scotland could do without nuclear weapons quite safely. The UK (given its recent involvement in Iraq, current war in Afghanistan and membership of NATO) would be taking a risk by getting rid of its nuclear weapons.

The EU is a major power bloc and definitely needs a deterrent of its own.

I thought Gordon Brown’s departure very dignified: ‘Thank you – and goodbye.’

Alan Campbell: good one! Do you mean that the Con-men are going to get a Dem good thrashing? Jokes aside, I hope that the alliance proves atsble.

Within one minute of entering Downing street, David Cameron’s first act as PM was to write down orders to every commander of a british nuclear submarine, to tell them what to do if the UK comes under attack and they are not able to contact higher authority.

Every PM has to do this.

Well well. Looks like we’re getting fixed term parliaments. No more elections until May 2015!

I wouldn’t bet my shirt on that one MJ!

Mary,

I think we need your research more than ever,

I’m with Craig on this one. Let’s study the detail of the deal on an electoral reform referendum and see what happens.

My instinct was to be very pissed off about a Con-Lib coalition but just seeing Blunkett and John Reid on the telly putting the boot in to destroy any chance of a Lab-Lib shared commitment to PR made me want to puke.

Not least because they have put themselves in a strong position of ensuring that anyone vaguely left has nowhere else to go.

Hi Mary – Please keep posting. I’m sure your posts will influence Craig’s views too.

Let’s see the LDs push back on every single thing “New” Labour did while in office which offended our civil liberties, that the Tories voiced outrage about at the time. The LDs can jolly the Tories along by saying how much they agreed with them at the time, that this or that legislation was wrong, and now – together – they’ll correct it.

Extradition treaties for one, surveillance and emergency power acts for another – the list is as long as your arm. The Cons denounced every last thing “New” Labour did – how could they not agree to repeal it now they’re in power, with their own partners championing the rollback?

Look Craig, I agree some top local government officers are grossly overpaid, largely due to consultants insistence that LG needed to ‘compete with the private sector for talent’.

However, the bulk of local government staff are poorly paid. They also keep the education system running, stop families falling apart, keep roads repaired, and do a thousand and one other things without which society as you know it would cease to function.

The number of ‘silly jobs’ is vanishingly small. Where they exist it is only due to some promise by a crazy local politician.

So there is very little fat to cut in public services. Some of the inefficiency is in fact due to too many cuts. For instance private contractors are brought in to keep statutory services running if a flu epidemic goes round. Many hospitals rely on agency nurses who cost more, and move around too much to know any hospital well.

It is simply a lazy myth that there are easy savings in the public sector, propagated by right-wing media which wish to see more and more privatisation, leading to more profit opportunities. It wont be too long before we have a privatised NHS, and possibly privatised schools.

Is this what you and the rest of the LibDems want, Craig?

My wife is a care worker for the local council, she is on a low wage. Looks like she will not have a job soon, all she is worried about is who will look after her old people.

Phil,

In no sense do I speak for the rest of the Lib Dems. I do not believe, however, that social workers “stop families falling apart”. I am happy to say that I have never met one – and more to the point, nor has anyone in my very large and undeniably working class extended family.

Personally, I think the Tories back in power is awesome news

and in a coalition with the LibDems is icing on the cake

Maybe now all those muppets who stood by all the ghastly things Nu Labour inflicted on us and world over the last 13 years might get off their arses and start opposing some of those ghastly things

Instead of supporting a political party on the basis that ‘At least they’re not the Tories’ maybe it’s about time a few more people defined their beliefs in terms of what they think is right and decent

I see you are about to get tory bloggers on here craig. That will make you happy. Bye.

Two very good female contributors lost in the space of under a month. Hope it isn’t anything we said. It would be pretty dull around here if it’s only us men talking, plus the odd tea-bagging troll.

Feel sick.

Technicolour: Do you feel worse than when Blair was returned in 2005, and (despite talking about being more humble etc. prior to the election) it was taken (particularly abroad) as the British justifying his crimes in Iraq?

Glenn thanks; no, then I felt angry & sad. But still knew that only 22 % had voted for him, & that people ‘abroad’ would hopefully know this too.

Feeling sick feels more disempowered. But hey. Tomorrow is another day.

Craig,

I’m very glad that neither you nor any of your family have met a social worker in a professional capacity.

However, I wish you would meet one or two to find out what the work is really like. Did you watch the excellent BBC documentaries a while back?

Cases like Victoria Climbie and Baby P are all over the papers when things go wrong. How many more cases would there be without the interventions of social workers? You just dont hear about it when things go OK.

Look, MJ!

We’re finally going to see inside the Devil’s Piggy Bank!

http://tinyurl.com/2fbf5hf

Conservative Liberal alliance. Does anyone else see a problem wuth that>

Sad to say I know ex-social workers who did their best but were overwhelmed, under resourced and ineptly managed.

Good people, wasted opportunities…

But the unelected quangos (jobs for Nu-Lab cronies), the proxies for ministerial responsibility need immediate attention.

Good night.

I have fallen into an upside down parallel universe.

Craig Murray becomes a tory.

Charles Crawford becomes a Guardian Writer.

I turn the tv on and Ian Dale is on the BBC news.

I’m going mad, help.

“I thought Gordon Brown’s departure very dignified: ‘Thank you – and goodbye.”

I thought it was a case of hypocrisy to the very end, claiming to have worked for a fairer Britain despite being “extremely comfortable” with the “filthy rich” and having increased the gulf between richest and poorest to its greatest since the Second World War.

For sale on ebay:-

Moral compass. Rusty and in generally poor condition. Needs some attention as has not been used for 13 years. No longer required due to owner retiring.

My prediction:

http://angrysoba.blogspot.com/2010/05/peering-into-devils-piggy-bank.html

We’ve endured 13 years of a government

…that has supported wars of aggression across the world and has the blood of hundreds of thousands on its collective hands

…that has trampled on civil liberties at home and condoned torture abroad

…that has presided over a widening of social inequality and reduction in social mobility

…that has given away the economic future of at least the next couple of generations as indentured serfs to the banksters

and people are whinging that the frontmen for these abominations have changed!?

just watched the new pm’s speech where traditionaly all of the great principles which are to be demeaned in the next few years are passionately lauded. awe, dont let em keep ye down folks. [:

Duncan McFarlane – “If Scotland goes independent it wouldn’t need nuclear weapons – and the UK on it’s own can’t afford them any more.”

?? If Scotland goes independent, there isn’t a UK, is there ?

Richard: It isn’t just Scotland and England which make up the UK, you know.

… down to New Orleans,

mary please don’t go.

Richard, there is Wales/N/Ireland and Cornwall

“Meanwhile the prospect of a Labour-led ‘progressive’ coalition has been welcomed by thousands of limbless Iraqis, torture victims and people whose DNA is now kept on a database because they signed a petition in the post office about a new bypass.

Abdul Al-Kaleem, a former limb owner from Basra, said: “I admire the British Labour Party. They managed to progress my legs off very efficiently, while my Uncle Karim was progressed over a wide area.

“I remember being handed what was left of his chin and thinking ‘yes, this is definitely progress’…”

Cable flip flops on cuts

Flippity Flop Dem.

And so it begins:

http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/cable-flip-flops-cuts

@ Stef

The frontmen have simply given way to new frontmen that will do exactly the same thing.

The truth is that this isn’t a real coalition at all. It’s the Tories in all the great offices of state and the Lib Dems bought off with a few non contentious depts and ministerial positions.

Look at how the great offices were divided in a real coalition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_Government_1940%E2%80%931945

The Lib Dems haven’t even got much in terms of the big policy issues.

No wonder Gove has been looking in all his interviews as if he were overly constipated in his efforts to suppress guffaws of laughter.

http://pictures.directnews.co.uk/liveimages/Michael+Gove_1566_19398313_0_0_7045076_300.jpg

Craig,

Your views on social work notwithstanding, the conclusion that UK government spending should be reduced is fallacious (especially now). It reflects the unfortunate success and pervasiveness of some of Neoliberalism’s most dangerous ideological commitments.

I’m pretty sure that whatever your feelings about particular sections of local government, you are nonetheless a principled thinker and would have no wish to participate, however slightly, in these continuing, needless outrages.

Can I recommend to you the writing of Prof. Bill Mitchell, for a robust argument as to why you are mistaken about this?

Especially:

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=332

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=352

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=381

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9281

All the best…

Craig

“I am happy to say that I have never met one [a social worker] and more to the point, nor has anyone in my very large and undeniably working class extended family.”

A remarkable family indeed in which no member suffering a disability needed a social worker to assess their needs or because of frailty in old age needed some social work service. A large family where no teenagers got themselves involved with the youth justice system, in which no member suffered serious mental health problems, nobody became a foster carer or adopted a child and a family in which no members have ever found themselves in the Family Courts disputing residence and contact issues about their children.

Brick,

nope we didn,t need any of those. I suffered mental illness, but didn’t see a social worker. We look after our own aged relatives, thanks.

Brick,

In fact I resent your implication that needing government help and being socially dysfunctional and borderline criminal is the norm for working class families. Typical Toyndee rubbish supporting a huge parasitic industry with some of the most overpaid bosses in the country.

No implication intended Craig. Just pointing out that, apart from the headline grabbing scandals, social workers are involved in arranging a lot of valued and uncontroversial services which a great many families, and not just working class families, avail themselves of from time to time as the need arises.

I do agree, however, about overpaid bosses.

Brick: My family has never required the assistance or intervention of social workers either, and we’re all working class (i.e. we all work for our living). Considering my contemporaries while growing up, there was nothing that remarkable about us in that regard.

Do you really think the seething masses in this country need an army of social workers to manage them and pick them up/ redirect them, as they go blundering through life?

Craig, I think you have accepted the picture created by the right-wing press of social workers roaming round the country in gangs imposing their ideas about how to live upon the general populace whilst failing to notice abused children.

In reality social workers, far from imposing themselves upon the seething masses are trying, with very few resources, to respond to overwhelming volumes of requests for their assistance from those masses. Your liberal heart will be gladdened to read (try to ignore the jargon) this definition of the values of social work from the International Federation of Social Workers:

“The social work profession promotes social change, problem solving in human relationships and the empowerment and liberation of people to enhance well-being. … Principles of human rights and social justice are fundamental to social work.”

Brick

I don’t doubt you are right. Sometimes I go into polemical mode to try to shake people out of complacent thinking, and express things in absolutist terms I do not really mean.

But I seriously do doubt the value of youth workers and community workers and many other such, and I think senior level local government salaries are obscenely over-inflated.

Yes, thanks to the various responders, I have heard of Wales (annexed to England by force, I think ?) and Northern Ireland (issues outstanding, still. Perhaps it ought to go with Scotland rather than England ?). According to Wikipedia (yes, I had to look it up) the term ‘UK’ came into use in 1800, when Ireland was incorporated into it.

Yes, I imagine the remnant would continue to want to call itself that, but with Scotland + most of Ireland gone from it, it’d be something of a rump.

I don’t really have any axes to grind here, except that the general extent of “not even beginning to want to think about this” that I see south of the border worries me. It could grow up to be a big problem.

No worries, Richard… this helps explain the various components:

http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/britishisles/

You’ll find the Welsh and Scottish in particular get a bit ticked off if they’re referred to as ‘English’. It’s primarily the fault of the English, of course, who like to give the impression that England and Britain are synonymous, and that Wales is a little village somewhere in England. So foreigners can hardly be blamed for having that impression.

“It’s primarily the fault of the English, of course”

I was educated in England. I didn’t even realise there was anything much I was ignorant of, till I started spending time & making friends north of the border. A fun test :- “what happened in 1707 ?”. Try this either side of the border …

I lived off in the northern Highlands once, for a while. I had the pleasure of friends coming to visit, and remarking on how they’d never been to that bit of England before. “Er, no”. “Oh, well, what’s the difference ? It doesn’t matter”.

Numbers. Relative population size.

Incidentally, I have seen claims that “Wales” derives from the same root as “walnut”. Old English for “foreign”.

According to the Welsh, they used to own England!

Richard, what are we supposed to be thinking about? Is it the fact that people in England will be left shrieking no! don’t leave us! as every other bit with a border turns its back on them?

“Richard, what are we supposed to be thinking about? Is it the fact that people in England will be left shrieking no! don’t leave us! as every other bit with a border turns its back on them?”

(for clarity, I’ll use “we” = “English”)

“We never liked them anyway” seems more likely, in the short term. But what then ?

I don’t know what we should be thinking about, or what the issues would be, except that England is in this Union too, how do we stand back and think it’s nothing to do with us ? Does it not have any consequences for us ? Does the rump “UK” just carry on, pretending nothing happened ?

Nuclear disarmament NotB would be “interesting” enough, but what about the rest of the armed forces ? Do they split ? Would that finally put an end to the ‘punching above our weight’ zombie ? To take just one example.

I don’t even begin to have a clue what it would mean, if places an hour and half’s drive away from where I live separated themselves out completely from the state I know. I find it hard to think it would make no difference.

Personally, see it like a pair of Dr Who doors – quick, dive through before they slide shut on you.

But this could be pessimistic. I’m feeling that way, I notice. Maybe, devoid of the ‘mean’ Scots, the ‘dark’ Welsh and the ‘crazy’ Cornish; England will become like a cross between Hobbiton & the Teletubbies? We can take pride in our – what do we do here again? Oh yes, financial services.

They’re sliding…

tech – “what do we do here again?”

Good question. Why Oh Why Will Nobody Think Of The Markets ? We’re a’ doom-oh, no, we wouldn’t be able to do that one any more, that would be Them, not Us.

“Hobbiton & the Teletubbies” – Alfred’s genetic themepark.

We could all set up offices managing services to clean each others’ offices ?

I guess we would come up with things, in the medium/longer term, but it might be “disconcerting” until we got used to it.

“We could all set up offices managing services to clean each others’ offices”

It’s a plan!