Remember 1974 – Let’s Stay in Opposition

by craig on May 7, 2010 12:37 pm in The Election

I argue urgently that we Lib Dems should not enter into any formal pact with anyone, but should remain in opposition to a minority Conservative and Unionist government.

I won’t pretend that last night was not horribly disappointing, as First Past The Post radically distorted our representation as usual. I went through this disappointment before, in February 1974 , in the election that first brought me in to political activity. Then, there was an even greater buzz about Jeremy Thorpe than there has been about Nick Clegg – and Thorpe was a spectacularly charismatic figure.

Third party politics really had seemed utterly dead in the 1950′s and 1960′s. Thorpe had inherited a parliamentary party that really could squeeze into a taxi, and Thorpe’s style, underpinned by Jo Grimond’s genuine radicalism, was an achievement more stunning than anything the Liberals or Lib Dems have managed since. It seemed to represent a re-ordering of the political system to accommodate the radical social changes of the 1960′s (and remember it was Liberal MP David Steel’s private member’s bill which liberalised abortion).

When Thorpe’s Liberal Party’s opinion polls rating during the first 1974 campaign hit the 23% level the Lib Dems gained yesterday, that was a quadrupling of support. When the actual percentage share at the ballot was 19.3% it was a huge letdown – and incredibly, 19.3% gave the Liberals just 14 seats – probably the most infamous result FTPT has ever delivered. 19.3% of the vote for 2.3% of the seats!!

That election morning was worse than this one. I had, age 15, worked almost every single non-school hour for 4 months leading up to the election, and had not slept for 96 hours, being out delivering leaflets. I shall never forget the burning sense of injustice.

The second election in October 1974 led to the Lib-Lab pact, which actually was highly succesful for three years in rescuing a near Greek economic situation. But the Liberals got no credit for it. The “Winter of Discontent” actually occurred after the Liberals withdrew from the Lib-Lab pact, but nonetheless the Liberals were swept backwards by Thatcherism in 1979.

That could easily repeat now. A Lib-Lab pact to claw back the dire economic situation would almost certainly be followed in time by a massive Tory backlash for keeping New Lab in power and losses of Lib Dems seats.

On the other hand, we have the scenario I blogged as tempting before yesterday’s vote:

a Cameron administration, with a tiny majority, propped up by some Northern Irish bigots, would inflict such pain on the majority of our society that, before falling after a few years, they would put the Tories out for a generation at least.

In so doing, they would greatly enhance the cause of Scottish and Welsh independence, and with the Lib Dems the second most popular party and the challenger in the large majority of Tory seats, the Tory demise would sweep in a radical change in more promising circumstances.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/crisis_is_a_gre.html#comments

I rejected this scenario in favour of a good Lib Dem performance yesterday – but given the actual result, I believe the above is the best scenario we have. Let the Tories run a minority administration with unpleasant allies, restraining their excesses. In the next general election the Lib Dems will poised nationally to pick up a huge bonanza of Tory seats. Cameron will meantime be in the minority government position that killed Callaghan and Major electorally. But he will also face the problem that the electorate always punish anyone who inflicts an unnecessary election on them.

So play it long and cool. Resist the tempations of instant power and ministerial limousines, and especially resist blandishments of referenda on electoral reform in which the entire Murdoch and Tory media empires will again be deployed against us to devastating effect.

190 Comments

  1. brian

    7 May, 2010 - 1:32 pm

    Come off it, Nick will keep those oiks out of Downing Street by fagging for Dave, it’s in his (blue) blood.

  2. Frazer

    7 May, 2010 - 1:35 pm

    Cheer up..in the last one you polled more votes than Esther Rantzen did this time..

  3. Abe Rene

    7 May, 2010 - 1:36 pm

    Without the Lib Dems, assuming that a large Blairite faction does not join them, the Tories will probably not be able to form a government. Then we will likely soon have a second general election.

  4. Sam

    7 May, 2010 - 2:08 pm

    Agreed – I think in many ways this is the best outcome. The Lib Dems have brought the issue of electoral reform to the forefront of politics. Now lets let the Tories try and get on with slashing public spending while protecting financial interests of Wall Street and the City – it won’t take people long to see their true colours. By the time of the next election people will be ready for more radical change.

    In the meantime, I think an important focus should be on the control of the media – more people are waking up to the power that people like Rupert Murdoch has over British politics, and we should do everything we can to try and combat this. Starting with trying to get Murdoch to pay taxes.

  5. chundernuts

    7 May, 2010 - 2:08 pm

    if the lib dems side with the tories they can be sure I will never vote for them again.

  6. Tony

    7 May, 2010 - 2:10 pm

    If the Libs Dems step aside and allow a minority Tory government through, then that government will fall within the year. In the following election people will only vote one of two ways – Tory or Labour – in order to avoid another hung parliament.

    The Lib Dem vote will collapse (they also have no money left) and voting reform will be kicked back into the long grass.

  7. kathz

    7 May, 2010 - 2:12 pm

    Agreed. David Cameron may have the right to try to govern but that’s no reason to prop him up. 64% of the electorate voted against the tories – their policies do not have a mandate.

    In the meantime, something needs to be done urgently about the way elections are run. The list of abuses and incompetence – people queuing for 3 hours and not allowed to vote, polling stations turning people away because they’ve run out of ballot papers, polling stations turning registered voters away because they’re using an old register, postal votes lost in bulk – undermines democracy.

    A Kenyan election observer was treated with amused condescension when he was interviewed on Radio 4, as though he’d come here to learn how to run an election. I want to hear the conclusions he and other observers reached.

  8. Craig

    7 May, 2010 - 2:17 pm

    Abe -

    remember Sinn Fein don’t turn up. The Tories plus DUP have plenty for a minority govt – plenty of precedents for that.

  9. Craig

    7 May, 2010 - 2:24 pm

    kathz

    but why is it morally better to prop up a bunch of war criminals who hould be in jail in The Hague?

  10. George Dutton

    7 May, 2010 - 2:25 pm

    Had to come back on…My last post here.

    Back in the late 1990s/2000 while watching the Conservative party conference at Blackpool on television… I can only tell it as it happened…

    Outside the conference hall two members of the Conservative party stood waiting to be interviewed (they were not MP’s but were high up’s in the party) they were asked… “What is the big talking point on the floor of this years conference”… the reply floored me this is what they said…

    “It is clear that people don’t know how to use their vote.We left this country in the best economical state it has ever been in and now Labour will ruin it all.The big talking point on the floor is who should be allowed to vote should it be done on academic achievement or given to those who create the wealth or a combination of the two.” The other one concurred.

    Please note it seems the decision to take the vote away from us had already been decided.

    Given that nothing happens on the floor of Conservative party conference without being instgated from above should frighten anyone that cares about democracy.The video of this must still be available in the archives of the BBC/Sky.Why I wonder are the Conservative party getting their members ready for a fascist state.After watching the documentary of what nearly happened to Harold Wilson’s government it becomes even more frightening…

    http://tinyurl.com/325mk2

    As this Accelerating World Financial Crisis / Collapse happens and will be VERY VERY bad I now think that when the Tories do get back into power we will NEVER have another free election here in the UK. The excuse the Tories will give is in the above… they will say it’s for the best as they are the only ones that can run the economy and point to and blame Labour for the mess and say it must never happen again. It looks to me now that it was all planned out sometime ago and that those who now run/hijacked Labour (New Labour) are hand in hand with the Tories to bring this about. After all remember … “What is the big talking point on the floor off this years conference”… strange that that was the reply they gave above… not what you would have thought they would say… Time will tell but I have a terrible feeling about all this.

    Note:I wrote the above on a blog sometime ago.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    “it must never happen again”

    If you listen to David Cameron speak from the election platform, after being elected last night, he said… “it must never happen again”

    “I have a terrible feeling about all this.”

    Another election soon? (A last one,for us?). The tories will need a large majority to get the above through parliament…I think they will get it…Time will tell.

  11. mary

    7 May, 2010 - 2:31 pm

    George – what do you mean?… My last post here…

    I hope that doesn’t mean what I think it does. You will be missed very much.

  12. mary

    7 May, 2010 - 2:34 pm

    Me again. Norwich North result just in. Chloe Smith wins and increases her share of the vote by 10%. My depression increases.

  13. Ed

    7 May, 2010 - 2:41 pm

    If Cameron is ready to offer electoral reform, Clegg would be doing the Lib Dems a disservice by rejecting the offer.

    If Cameron is offering a restoration of subverted civil liberties, then Clegg would be doing the country a disservice by rejecting the offer.

    I don’t believe Cameron is very willing to offer either… but if he does, Clegg should consider the offer seriously.

    This has obviously been a lousy night for Lib Dems, but there is a potential silver lining. And hopefully Clegg and his people will not let their present disappointment cloud their judgement if they are presented with an opportunity to carry out an agenda which embraces some core liberal principles.

    It’s far from ideal, but at some point, it may become an opportunity too good to pass up.

  14. Craig

    7 May, 2010 - 2:43 pm

    George

    You overhear lots of silly talk in the margins of Tory Party conferences. To extrapolate from that to a real threat to our (imperfect) democracy is daft.

  15. Anonymous

    7 May, 2010 - 2:46 pm

    ‘margins of Tory Party conferences’

    “What is the big talking point on the floor of this years conference”

    eh!

  16. David

    7 May, 2010 - 2:57 pm

    I think its getting a bit far feached to say that if the tories get power they will end the rights of people to vote. I suspect that most of the senior members of all the big partys would secretly love to do that… on their own terms of course.

    Lib-Dems to support the Cons, not such a bad idea when you think about it, get past the idealistic party politics and scaremongering, the economy is in a total mess, like it or not the Conservatives do have a history of fixing broken economies, they also tend to slash public services, but at the moment part of the problem is the massive increase in public employees and its hurting us, so no great loss if they go. Time they went. The choice is simple cut or tax. I pay enough tax for the rubbish services I get and dont want to pay more just to fund government inefficiency.

    Personally I would welcome a Con / Lib-dem alliance, I think it will only bring good to this country, Conservative economic management with a liberal tilt. Sounds interesting to me.

    I dont care who runs the country, I just care that they do it properly, and labour has destroyed our economy, destroyed our libertys, lied, cheated and stolen its way through the last decade. If they dont go now then god help us all, frankly just about anything is better than another 5 years of the Brown / Medlesome combination.

    Although to be totally frank… hung parliament ? I’ll gladly supply the rope !

  17. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 3:06 pm

    It’s all Sue’s fault.

  18. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 3:09 pm

    Would people beginning “Agreed” please state who they’re agreeing with?

  19. Anonymous

    7 May, 2010 - 3:11 pm

    Kathz

    “64% of the electorate voted against the tories – their policies do not have a mandate.”

    The Tories have the same percentage of the votes cast as the last New Labour government. In the modern world no-one ever has a “mandate” in the sense of the active support of half the electorate.

    Personally, I have wanted an anti-Blair/Brown coalition government ever since they took over the Labour Party. The last 13 years have seemed like a SF movie – the aliens have replaced the Labour Party with a bunch of doppelgangers.

    If the Lib Dems can find any way to work with the Tories I’d be prepared to put on one of Polly Toynbee’s clothes pegs and go along with that, in the hope that the aliens would f*** off and let the Labour Party rebuild itself as a genuine left-of-centre party.

    But I’m not holding my breath. Another election in October seems the likeliest outcome at present…

  20. steve

    7 May, 2010 - 3:13 pm

    What the hell are you talking about 67% decided that they dont want the tories? You are speaking shit, Labour has been acting like tinpot dictators with a lot less of a mandate than the tories have just got. For god sake admit it the bloody labour lot have lost so get over it. I am no tory but stop wriggling the system sucks when you can get 2 million more votes than labour. Lets stop squabling and get on with ruling the country and reforming this corrupt system.

  21. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 3:22 pm

    Craig,

    your dismissal of George Dutton’s fears is too strong – remember the Poll Tax? Thatcher actually tried to do just this.

    On the other hand, they didn’t manage such a thing with a large majority. On the current figures, they don’t stand a chance.

  22. MJ

    7 May, 2010 - 3:25 pm

    Given there’s little of substance to distinguish between the parties, arriving at some kind of coalition agreement shouldn’t be too difficult. The one alliance that isn’t being discussed is a Lab/Con coalition, yet they have ample common ground to make it work. The dreaded GNU, just as Ruth has been predicting here for several weeks.

  23. Craig

    7 May, 2010 - 3:35 pm

    Yes, if Cameron has any sense he is making back door approaches to right wing Nulab figures offering them Cabinet seats to cross the floor – Hazell Blears for example.

  24. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 3:35 pm

    David,

    remember that it was Thatcher (with Reagan) that originally removed the credit controls. Yes, Labour failed to restore them. But the Conservatives knackered the economy last time, trashed manufacturing, instigated the house price problem…

    “We only have one party and it has two right wings” or something. Is it any wonder that we fly in circles?

  25. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 3:37 pm

    Oh, I forgot the ERM.

  26. Craig

    7 May, 2010 - 3:39 pm

    Clark – not you too. I am as anti-Tory as anyone, but the idea that any significant proportion of Conservatives want to abolish democracy is looney tunes stuff. Sort of on a par with believing Dick Cheney did 9/11.

  27. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 3:42 pm

    Craig,

    not abolish, merely curtail. Was the Poll Tax not just that? But they won’t get away with it just now, there aren’t enough of them, I glad to say.

  28. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 3:45 pm

    And Craig,

    you’re not allowed to mention that here.

  29. Craign

    7 May, 2010 - 3:48 pm

    Clark

    The Poll Tax was simply the Tory ideal of regressive tazation – make the commoners pay instead of scrounging, reduce the burden on the deserving stinking rich. Crass and unpleasant, but it was not a secret agenda to drive the proles off the electoral register.

  30. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 3:51 pm

    Craig,

    that is your speculation about the motives of some 300 MPs. It had the effect of reducing voter registration, and led to riots.

  31. Courtenay Barnett

    7 May, 2010 - 3:56 pm

    Craig said:-

    “I argue urgently that we Lib Dems should not enter into any formal pact with anyone, but should remain in opposition to a minority Conservative and Unionist government.”

    I wager that the Libs will soon be in bed with the Tories. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

  32. Duncan

    7 May, 2010 - 3:57 pm

    It would be worth propping up Labour to get PR. You never know if we’ll get another chance at it; for all we know it’s downhill from here back into the world of red vs blue.

    P.S. – You’re mentioned with praise in Ahmed Rashid’s Descent into Chaos; I was listening to the audiobook when leafleting the other day.

  33. paul

    7 May, 2010 - 3:58 pm

    Given the millions of seemingly hypocephalic people wandering the country somehow miraculously having the coordination to put an X in Labours box at an election, Im all for passing a test as a requirement for being eligible to vote.

    The fewer tabloid worshipping morons involved in such a wide reaching decision that impacts so many lives the better.

  34. revicurse

    7 May, 2010 - 4:00 pm

    We would be alot better off without those proddie bigots thats for sure!

  35. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 4:06 pm

    Paul and Revicurse,

    yes, let’s test them on their ability to use the apostrophe.

  36. Craig

    7 May, 2010 - 4:11 pm

    Clark,

    But I knw quite a few of them. Thatcher, Howe, Rifkind, Garel-Jones, Mellor, Gale, Parkinson, Chalker, Clarke to name some. That was not their motive. What the Tories really are and want is quite objectionable enough, without your having to morph them into fascists. This ultra left mythologising is hopeless.

  37. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 4:11 pm

    I don’t believe that any significant proportion of Conservatives want to abolish democracy. However, I wouldn’t dismiss the deleted evidence of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, which is of course open to interpretation as are the reasons for its deletion, even though it is still available. We don’t however want to discuss that.

    What we should be discussing is how to use the current position to radically improve democracy in this country, assuming that we actually think democracy is a potentially good system of government.

    Currently Page 3 of the Sun has undue overwhelming influence. Those who control the media, control what people think.

    I agree with Craig, that the Lib Dems would be doing themselves a massive long term favour to remain in opposition.

    Tony

  38. Abe Rene

    7 May, 2010 - 4:16 pm

    I predict that the Lib Dems will do a deal with the Tories. As soon as the results were announced, Nick Clegg hinted pretty broadly that he was open to negotiations, and an hour or so ago Cameron made a speech inviting him to negotiations. They both want it.

    Such a coalition would have a chance of survival beyond a year. I suspect that any minority coalition government that the Tories formed with the DUP etc wouldn’t survive longer than a few months, and we’d be into another general election before the end of the year. If I were Cameron, I wouldn’t waste time, if I couldn’t forge a stable alliance with the Lib Dems.

  39. david

    7 May, 2010 - 4:17 pm

    Clark,

    I run and own a manufacturing company, Thatcher is the kind of person you love or hate, very few people say ” oh well she was ok i suppose” Did manufacturing suffer under thatcher… yes… and no. The old hugely inefficient union dominated industries died a long overdue death, we where left with the best manufacturing companies. Many new manufacturing companies came from the destruction of the old industries, new aggressive and highly efficient. Sadly there was very little support for these industries during Thatcher, and we lived or died by our own hand. No government since has done a damn thing to help manufacturing in this country. If you are a service industry its all there for you, but manufacturing is getting very very hard now. The amount of legislation we have to comply to is crippling. Slightly off topic I agree.

    This labour government inherited an economy that was is ok shape, and they have stolen its life blood to pay for their own communist agenda ( note i say communist not socialist) Your pension is worthless, your taxes are too high, your freedoms are GONE. I will never forgive the labour party for the last 10 years.

    Today I asked around my office who voted what and why..I have young staff, some of which voted for the first time yesterday, the frightening fact that non of them understood anything about the partys was bad enough, but when asked why they voted for who they did the answer was unanimous… because my parents did !

    Has British politics become like supporting a football team now ? You support someone because thats who your dad supports ? Scary but it would seem that way.

    I really want to see a LibDem/Conservative government, at its best it could be a truely wonderful thing for this country, admitedly at it worst it could be a total disaster !

  40. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 4:21 pm

    I’m with you Mr Barnett.

    Depends what Nick and Dave are told to do, erm, sorry “advised” to do.

  41. Seb

    7 May, 2010 - 4:21 pm

    Trouble is that lots of ‘nulabor” would probably change sides for a fiver.

  42. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 4:25 pm

    david at May 7, 2010 4:17 PM

    I think you will find the SNP has helped manufacturing businesses in Scotland.

    However, it is small beer and I agree with you overall.

  43. eddie

    7 May, 2010 - 4:27 pm

    Craig, apparently Jeremy Thorpe wanted to be Home Secretary but the Cabinet secretary advised that there were certain matters in his private life that would be rather tricky.

    I think this is a good result for Labour. The hyped-up Tory victory has not happened. The Libs have done disastrously badly. The poll shows that electoral reform is essential. The Tories have to try to form a government and the Libs will either have to jump into bed with them, and confirm their whore-like tendencies, or there will have to be another election very soon. Meanwhile Labour can mount a competent opposition and not be held responsible for the massive cuts that the new government will have to make. A year from now the Labour years will seem like a golden age. Mind you, I would very much like to see Vince Cable as chancellor.

  44. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 4:33 pm

    david,

    Thatcher virtually shut down Manufacturing in the North of England. The company I was working for wasn’t some old lame duck. We were state of the art and 10 years ahead of the US competition.

    But the Thatcher/Reagan/Friedman neo-liberal Globalisation policies have been completely devastating to the entire World economy and massively reduced the real living standards of most families in the UK and US, whilst turning much of the Third World into a heavily polluted slave labour camp.

    When I was a kid, society was such that a typical Mother could afford to stay at home and bring up the Children, just on the Father’s income. One of the main reasons why society is collapsing is due to the outsourcing of Parenthood, enforced by the economic realities of avoiding abject poverty.

    I however congratulate you and your manufacturing company on its survival.

    Tony

  45. MJ

    7 May, 2010 - 4:38 pm

    “I would very much like to see Vince Cable as chancellor”.

    I don’t think I’ve ever said this before, but: I agree with you eddie.

  46. kingfelix

    7 May, 2010 - 4:39 pm

    Thank you, Craig, for your idea of putting the UK through 4 or 5 years of Tory torment solely in order to advance your LibDem party’s prospects.

    And that’s ‘long and cool’ in your eyes. You’re steadily losing touch.

  47. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 4:42 pm

    eddie and MJ, me too.

    Would call me Dave ditch George though?

  48. technicolour

    7 May, 2010 - 4:48 pm

    It’s hardly ‘ultra-left mythologising’ to speculate that some Conservatives would not have cared two hoots if poor people were forced off the electoral roll by the poll tax. It was a consequence which might easily have been anticipated, in fact.

    When Lord Hailsham refers to FPTP as an ‘elective dictatorship’, is he ‘ultra-left mythologising’?

    The more I see of politics, the more I find politicians’ attitudes to their electorate cold-blooded, self-serving, cynical and entirely disgraceful. There are some notable exceptions, but they seem increasingly rare.

  49. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 4:51 pm

    Craig,

    I do not think of Tories in general as facists, though you yourself have pointed out some of their unpleasant alliances in Eastern Europe. I just think that some of them must have realised the effect the Community Charge would have upon voter registration, and were insufficiently concerned about that.

    David,

    yeah, elections do seem to be treated as a rather naff spectator sport. I just think that the Tory reputation for being good for the economy is misleading. The economy does what it does – that’s the problem; neither Tottenhan nor Arsenal do enough to control it. But given globalisation, maybe that would require international co-operation?

  50. writerman

    7 May, 2010 - 4:55 pm

    Down at the harbour this morning, among the fishing boats and yachts, I had a difficult time explaining the UK election to the people in the bar/cafe, what did it all mean?

    What did it all mean? Too close to tell, I suppose. Whilst I come from a similar background to Cameron, and nowdays people think I’m even posher because of my accent and appearance, I simply can’t stand the hypocracy and dishonesty of the ruling class. Their extraordinary short-sightedness, economic irresponsibility, the unsustainable nature of our plundering of the earth’s resources, the colossal waste that’s part of our consumer society, the ghastly genocide inflicted on the species we share this planet with…

    Foreigners just can’t seem to see how the UK is a democracy when Labour and the Liberals can get almost the same percentage of the vote, yet Labour gets five times as many seats. This system seems wildly unfair and anti-democratic to most people I talk to.

    I have difficulty explaining its advantages and the positive aspects, though I do try to spin it as well as I can, as an exercise.

    Whilst I like the ideas behind democracy and the principles involved, I find myself becoming increasingly sceptical about how modern “democracy” functions in practice. Whilst democracy might have worked in ancient Athens, a city-state where only about 20% of the population actually were allowed to vote; I’m not sure about democracy of a vast, mass scale.

    I think, in a nutshell, that the level of democracy in a society is proportional and related to the level of economic equality and social justice in society. This includes a high degree of educational equaltiy as well.

    This connection between democracy and equality was well-understood, which is why there was so much opposition to democracy from people like us, and why we saw democracy as a direct threat to our entrenched positions and power. However, today this realisation seems to have been deliberately swept under the carpet.

    My brother, for example, who is a powerful person, part of what’s called the “Market” gets to “vote” almost everyday on government policy, unlike most people. Strangely he doesn’t vote in elections, because he doesn’t think that would be fair. This attitude is somewhat ironic.

    To be honest, I don’t really see that the three major parties are that different from each other. To me they seem like three factions of the same basic party. Progressive conservatives against reactionary conservatives. But maybe I’m missing something important here?

  51. MJ

    7 May, 2010 - 4:58 pm

    “But maybe I’m missing something important here?”

    Nope, you’re right on the money writerman.

  52. MJ

    7 May, 2010 - 5:03 pm

    This election has been like three kids on the back seat of a car squabbling about which one has the right to have the toy steering wheel.

  53. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 5:07 pm

    Eddie?

    Is that really you, advocating electoral reform? After the way you replied to me when I advocated the same?

  54. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 5:14 pm

    MJ,

    The problem is the kids can cause the car to crash by distracting the driver.

    Any idea who he is and where he is trying to take us to?

    Tony

  55. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 5:17 pm

    writerman, dead right.

    The “markets” as you call them literally don’t care. They back all sides and all outcomes. They have done this since we bankrupted ourselves defeating Napoleon. Don’t forget Dubya’s grandpa funded the Nazi’s (see Union Banking Corporation) until the Feds froze their assets in 1942 – some special relationship ’39-42, eh.

    Anyhow, the Lib-Dems find themselves in a fortuitously strong position and need to grab the chance they have with the Tories. To side with Nu-Lab would undermine their position on Iraq and lose all semblance of public trust.

    If they can secure electoral reform with Cameroon they should grab it now.

    And, doubtless, will reap some benefit in the not too far distant next election.

  56. Alfred

    7 May, 2010 - 5:21 pm

    Britian, the “Mother of Parliaments” is supposed to have just discovered that the way they do their elections is all wrong and that they should adopt some new-fangled European system of proportional representation to ensure a perpetually hung parliament in which every decision is a compromise and no election results in any but a handful of the rascals being thrown out.

    It would also insure the election of odious carpet-bagging fools like Nick Griffin of the British National Party, a self-described Welsh nationalist, who under a system of proportional representation was elected to the European Assembly with a mere 6% of the vote in his North West England constituency.

    Under present circumstances, the best solution would be a Liberal-Conservative merger under the name Democratic-Conservatives, which would end for a generation all further consideration of proportional representation.

    The Liberals would get the Foreign Office and a couple of important domestic portfolios, e.g., the Home Office and Health, where they could direct their reformist zeal on worthy projects, while the Tories get on with the business of restoring control of the countries borders, cutting the bloated bureaucracy and transferring resources to the productive sectors of the economy.

  57. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 5:23 pm

    Technicolour,

    thanks. I was starting to wonder if I was a nutjob!

    Don’t worry, it’s just the election. Normality will be restored just as soon as we are sure what is normal anyway.

  58. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 5:26 pm

    Posted by: tony_opmoc at May 7, 2010 5:14 PM

    Lol. I think the driver is called Maurice but David tells him where to go ;)

  59. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 5:30 pm

    writerman,

    I make no moral judgements, but I have met some of your brother’s underlings and to my great surprise I was distinctly unimpressed, and I am being kind.

    But doesn’t he get bored with playing God?

    I too didn’t vote, for the first time in my life, but probably for different reasons to your brother.

    Tony

  60. MJ

    7 May, 2010 - 5:35 pm

    Tony: I think the driver is called Nathaniel and he’s heading for North West Ontario (I think that’s what it stands for).

  61. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 5:42 pm

    The talk in the supermarket today was of complete delight that the Green Party candidate had secured Brighton Pavillion.

    I was in control of the shopping trolley which was heavily loaded up with half price Coca-Cola…

    On the way out my Wife stopped and went through her purse to give all her change to the old RAF Spitfire Pilot.

    He proudly stuck his badge over her left breast.

    After I had loaded up the car, I went back to him and gave him my change.

    He proudly stuck his badge over my left breast.

    Tony

  62. technicolour

    7 May, 2010 - 5:44 pm

    Lots of very well-paid men in suits talking earnestly on my tv. Just told us that the electorate don’t get to decide a government in a hung parliament; parliament does.

    So that’s OK. We can all give up now. Move along, move along, get back to your jobs, nothing to see here…

    Thinking rather wistfully of the election billboards which were subvertised with the legend “Our dreams don’t fit on your ballots”.

  63. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 5:45 pm

    Posted by: MJ at May 7, 2010 5:35 PM

    How about, Rothschild and Rockefeller along with a few other “drivers”?

    Same old cabal. I sincerely hope Ron Paul gets his way in opening the books on the Federal Reserve but somehow I think a plane crash is more likely.

    Plus ca change…

  64. mary

    7 May, 2010 - 5:48 pm

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-diplomats-breathe-sigh-of-relief-at-clegg-s-poor-poll-showing-1.288924

    “But Israel is not without stalwart friends in the Conservative party. Foremost among them the party’s leading ideologue, Michael Gove. Some of the views expressed in his speeches and opinion articles over the past few years would put the mainstream Likud to shame.”

    !!!

  65. technicolour

    7 May, 2010 - 5:56 pm

    oh, there’s this, which monbiot’s promoting:

    http://www.takebackparliament.com/

  66. MJ

    7 May, 2010 - 5:57 pm

    ScouseBilly: yes, it’s certainly a team effort but Nat seems to be in charge of the UK leg. Agree about Paul’s efforts to audit the Fed but have this funny feeling that it would come up squeaky clean. It will surely have been fixing the books in case of such an eventuality.

  67. amk

    7 May, 2010 - 5:57 pm

    “every decision is a compromise”

    Politics is inherently about compromise.

    The electoral system that the Lib Dems (and almost all other British PR advocates) advocate is STV, not a list system like the European elections. This is a preferential system, in which voters list candidates (not parties) in the order of their preferences. Once votes are cast the election proceeds as a series of run-offs with the least supported candidate being eliminated each time and their votes transferred to the next highest preference until the required number of candidates have unassailable leads. This will punish candidates most people dislike, e.g. BNP, as most people’s votes will go to anyone who can beat the BNP.

    Under STV I expect the BNP to get zero seats.

  68. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 5:59 pm

    There’s a People’s Parliament in Parliament Square – been there since Saturday 1st.

    There’s a Fair Voting demo in Trafalgar Square 2:00 PM Saturday 8th.

    38 Degrees have a “What’s Next” page:

    http://labs.38degrees.org.uk/content/election-what-next

  69. Suhayl Saadi

    7 May, 2010 - 6:00 pm

    Actually, I agree with eddie (zounds!) at 0427. I think Labour’s done very well, considering everything. They (from their point-of-view) would be best sitting in Opposition for a few years. The Lib Dems would be fools to enter a coalition with the Tories. They would be eaten alive.

  70. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 6:02 pm

    Amk,

    thanks for highlighting the superiority of STV over the List System.

  71. Richard Robinson

    7 May, 2010 - 6:02 pm

    technicolour, Clark, others – “It’s hardly ‘ultra-left mythologising’ to speculate that some Conservatives would not have cared two hoots if poor people were forced off the electoral roll by the poll tax. It was a consequence which might easily have been anticipated, in fact.”

    To cynically see a benefit from a peculiar side-effect is different from plotting to bring it about.

    What I saw, then – a lot of people disenfranchised themselves groundlessly, while insisting in the face of the evidence that they were victims of a plot to make them do so.

    I was in north Leeds. The Council informed us that the decision whether to take names off the electoral register was up to the Councils, and they’d taken a clear decision not to. I saw this happen, in that my name was on the register, but by various happenstance not known to the housing/rates depts. – and the poll-tax hassle-letters were coming through the letterbox addressed to “the Occupier”, and demanding to know my name. So they hadn’t taken it from other lists. “Look”, I said to people, “This is actual evidence that they are _not_ taking names from the register”.

    I don’t think I changed one mind, people carried on insisting that they had to let their names drop off the register because it was all a plot to make them do so in order to avoid paying the polltax. Being a local decision, it may have been different elsewhere, but under that council, people did it to themselves.

  72. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 6:06 pm

    Posted by: MJ at May 7, 2010 5:57 PM

    Yep. Worth checking Mrs Clegg’s firm, DLA Piper.

    It’s alleged that they had power of attorney over the Boeing Corporation whilst they were moving HQ from Seattle to Chicago. When was that? Oh, yeah, Sep. 2001.

    The so called “magic circle” of city law firms is worthy of investigation (re. N.W. Ontario).

  73. ScouseBilly

    7 May, 2010 - 6:09 pm

    Richard Robinson at May 7, 2010 6:02 PM

    I still have outstanding (poll tax) CCJ’s – in a variant spelling of my name – wankers!!

  74. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 6:11 pm

    Richard Robinson,

    “The Council informed us that the decision whether to take names off the electoral register was up to the Councils, and they’d taken a clear decision not to”.

    See? It wasn’t good enough. There should have been *no option* to remove voters from the list because to do so is anti-democratic.

  75. technicolour

    7 May, 2010 - 6:12 pm

    To cynically see a benefit from a peculiar side-effect is different from plotting to bring it about.

    Agreed, and interesting, Richard. I don’t think the poll tax was just a cover for forcing people off the register. I don’t think Clark did either (? Clark?)

  76. technicolour

    7 May, 2010 - 6:13 pm

    Also, good point, Clark.

  77. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 6:14 pm

    Technicolour,

    no, not a cover. But I suspect that some privately thought of it as a convenient side-effect. A bit like Tower Hamlets and Dame Tesco.

  78. JimmyGiro

    7 May, 2010 - 6:19 pm

    “and remember it was Liberal MP David Steel’s private member’s bill which liberalised abortion”

    Now you can’t have it both ways.

    Happy girls give birth to happy children, which grow to become happy voters for happy parties. Whereas miserable girls give birth to miserable children that grow to become miserable voters.

    So you see, you are the authors of your own downfall, you flushed your core vote down the pan.

  79. Duncan McFarlane

    7 May, 2010 - 6:27 pm

    I’d have thought that Brown would have offered Clegg STV PR right away if he had any sense – and that Clegg would have accepted.

    However I see your point Craig. Whoever is in government next will be blamed for the public spending cuts that are coming – though i’d prefer the Lib Dems were there to ensure the savings are made the right way (e.g no upgrade to Trident, end subsidies for arms exports, crack down on tax havens, raise tax on billionaires and multinationals, phase out or renegotiate PFIs and PPPs, bring the troops home from Afghanistan) rather than by the big cuts in public sector employment Labour (and even more so the Conservatives) are planning. Sadly Clegg hasn’t committed to bringing the troops home, nor to higher taxes on big firms and billionaires, nor to scrapping PFIs or PPPs any more than the other two party leaders have.

  80. Clark

    7 May, 2010 - 6:28 pm

    Dictators like Karimov rig elections such that they appear to have overwhelming support. Karzai rigged his elections such that there were more votes than voters! Credibility suffers. Over here we’re more subtle; a multitude of smaller effects usually achieve the desired result:

    # Use a voting system that scares the majority into sticking with the main parties, or disillusions them about voting altogether,

    # Count the votes by constituencies, thus eliminating minority representation,

    # Make deals with the Mainstream Media to swing opinion in the desired direction, and discredit tactical voting,

    # A bit of “treating”,

    # A bit of postal ballot fraud,

    # etc.

    Clever, init? Nothing glaringly obvious to get people up in arms, keeps the rif-raf off the streets, convinces a big enough majority that “we live in a democracy”.

    But this time it’s failed…

  81. David

    7 May, 2010 - 6:31 pm

    Tony,

    You are wrong on some points. Why is parenting outsourced now ? because we live in a must have society, must have a nice car must have a nice house, must have the latest stuff… so in order to do that both parents work, and borrow and work to pay the debts. We outsource pareting not to stay above the poverty line, but so that we can have the things that in reality we dont need. Poverty in this country is not real poverty – I have seen real poverty and I can assure you that it is not to be found in the UK. I agree there are people who dont have much money, who struggle every month to pay the bills and have to make tough choices, but poverty ? No sorry. Can someone tell me the last time we had a famine because we couldnt afford food ? In fact has anyone died of starvation recently ? (I genuinely ask.. i dont know the answer) Is any one in the UK without clean safe drinking water ? Please dont confuse poverty with not having much, there is a MASSIVE difference.

    In the last 30 years we have seen the gradual destruction of society, a destruction that suits the politicians well, and both the conservatives and Labour have done this. Our lack of society is not to do with people working, but to do with that great big flashing box in the corner of every front room, filling your head with desires for stuff you cannot afford, or imaginary life styles that are not achievable. We dont talk to each other any more.. we got home turn on the opiate of the masses and watch the flickering screen wondering why society is so rubbish. And our leaders use its power to fill our heads with fear, fear of each other (hoodies) fear of anyone who is different to us and then use that imaginary fear to take away your liberty, and liberty dies without so much as a whimper. To start wars in the name of national security that have nothing to do with national security and everything to do with stealing another countries rescources.

    The “thinking” class is getting fewer, thankfully there are places like this and people like craig who will stick there heads above the parapet and not be afraid to exchange ideas and philosopys.

    I congratulate every one who reads this blog, wether i agree with you are not matters not one jot…. the fact is that you can think for yourself. Never let go of that liberty, because they will try and take it away one day.

    Just cos your not paranoid… doesnt mean they are not out to get you.

  82. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 6:32 pm

    Everything I have posted over the past 24 hours or so is true and hopefully makes sense.

    Of course truth is only in the eye of the beholder, but what I wrote was as close to the truth as I could write.

    I now have to have a session on my guitar which I am trying to learn how to play.

    Yes I did buy rather a large number of cans of coca-cola (the original – without any Aspartame rat poison)

    I also bought 8 cans of beer, and I have drunk no alcohol since Monday night.

    Please ignore any manic rubbish, that I may write after playing the entire guitar piece of Enter Sandman very slowly and trying to get the palm suppressed bit a bit better.

    Its a kind of throbbing sound that is very difficult to get right when you are as old as me.

    I will try and not post rubbish, and there is no way that I will play on stage until I think I can do it reasonably well.

    You may think – Why is This Old Fart Trying To Play Guitar at his Age?

    Well I like learning New Things That Are Incredibly Difficult.

    Goodnight

    God Bless,

    Tony

  83. the other richard

    7 May, 2010 - 6:34 pm

    CRAIG WRITES: “…What the Tories really are and want is quite objectionable enough, without your having to morph them into fascists. This ultra left mythologising is hopeless.”

    Not so! More right-wing mythologising.

    The Tories supported plenty of fascist regimes. Suharto of Indonesia, for instance, one of the most brutal dictators of the 20th century, the CIA wrote – a bit rich given the U.S. helped put him in power (to steal the country’s resources). Thatcher called Suharto, “One of our very best and most valuable friends.” Thatcher’s friend, with UK and US help, slaughtered over 1.2 million people.

    From a John Pilger interview with Alan Clark (Clark supplied Suharto with military weapons):

    Pilger: “Did it bother you personally that you were causing such mayhem and human suffering?”

    Clark: “No, not in the slightest, it never entered my head.”

    Pilger: “I ask the question because I read you are a vegetarian and are seriously concerned with the way animals are killed.”

    Clark: “Yeah?”

    Pilger: “Doesn’t that concern extend to humans?”

    Clark: “Curiously not.”

    Then there’s Augusto Pinochet of Chile – plenty of Tories supported him! – Thatcher even had tea with the dictator.

    If the Tories could, they’d have a dictatorship here, but they can’t get one, so they take it out on the poorest in society, instead – that gives them some pleasure!

    These are true PSYCHOPATHS who have no conscience, no morals, no shame, and NOTHING is beyond them – NOTHING!

    What they can get away, though, is another matter.

  84. arturchilingarov

    7 May, 2010 - 6:48 pm

    get real man. The country needs a strong government to deal with the mess it is in, and that includes issues like troops in Afghanistan.

    Liberalism is deply rooted in this country. Better that than be ruled by a cabal of Scottish socialists. Give Clegg a chance to do something different!

  85. david

    7 May, 2010 - 6:53 pm

    The other Richard.

    Yes you are correct the cons have supported some pretty nasty people…. so have labour, you can read an aweful lot about that on this blog. Would the libDems do it different ? Probably not. Global politics being what it is.

    Politics is no longer about serving the people, its about grabbing as much power as possible and hanging onto it for as long as possible. Sad but true.

    Career politicians should be banned.

  86. Seb

    7 May, 2010 - 7:02 pm

    To put the same point more directly — is there any reason why the Tory party should not just pay the number of elected members of Parliament that they require to change affiliation and join the Conservative Party?

  87. mary

    7 May, 2010 - 7:08 pm

    I see Andrew Dismore (Hendon Con) got the chop but can’t believe that Nadine Dorries (Mid Beds Con)got in again.

  88. kathz

    7 May, 2010 - 7:32 pm

    Craig – I don’t know why you think I believe it better to prop up a bunch of war criminals. If you looked at my blog on the election you’d see that I think this is wrong. I think that Cameron should be left to govern as a minority government, so that only legislation which gets sufficient parliamentary support can pass. The elements on his speech in favour of the war in Afghanistan and Trident and against immigration clearly run counter to liberal, if not Lib Dem aims. If the tories want to get these measures through, they should do so with Labour support rather than expecting the Lib Dems to follow them into the lobby.

    Like many people in this country, I voted without enthusiasm for the least bad option. Perhaps the leaders, the parties and the people need to promote a more honest debate than they have yet – certain areas were noticeably off limits in every debate (local and national) that I saw.

  89. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 7:59 pm

    The difference between Ozzy Osbourne, Tony Blair and me goes something like this…

    Even I can play Iron Man, but it is a bit tough on the fingers – Tony Iommi used stubs on his because he cut the tips off at work…

    Meanwhile whilst I and over a Million other People are Marching to London BEFORE The Iraq War

    The Radio is Playing Black Sabbath

    WAR PIGS

    http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/story/ozzy-upset-with-tony-blairs-iron-man-challenge

    “OZZY OSBOURNE was far from impressed with British Prime Minister TONY BLAIR during a recent meeting – because the politician seemed more interested in picking up music tips than solving the world’s problems.

    The rocker was left speechless when Blair turned to him during a high-powered Downing Street party and wanted to talk about BLACK SABBATH classic IRON MAN.

    Ozzy says, “He told me he used to be in a band and I felt like saying, ‘You should have stayed.’

    “All this Iraq thing’s going on and I was amazed that he turned round to me and said, ‘I could never quite understand how to get the riff to Iron Man.’

    “I’m going, ‘Kids are dying, people are getting blown up and you’re talking to me about f**king Iron Man.’”

    Tony

  90. MJ

    7 May, 2010 - 8:02 pm

    mary: I’m pretty sure Dismore was Lab, not Con. Wasn’t he the chairman of the JCHR committee that Craig addressed last year?

  91. Richard Robinson

    7 May, 2010 - 8:08 pm

    “See? It wasn’t good enough. There should have been *no option* to remove voters from the list because to do so is anti-democratic”.

    I’m not disagreeing, but it doesn’t change my point. I saw people doing it to themselves, not having it done to them.

    (more speculative)

    They became victims of a conspiracy that they imagined for themselves. A bit like invading Iraq … projection.

  92. technicolour

    7 May, 2010 - 8:12 pm

    Yep, Dismore is Labour – voted very strongly for the ‘Iraq war’ and very strongly against an enquiry…

  93. alan campbell

    7 May, 2010 - 8:17 pm

    It’s coming. The blue blood alliance.

  94. mary

    7 May, 2010 - 8:31 pm

    Yes mj and technicolour. Yes of course. I did know he was Labour (and LFoI) but am getting addled. Sorry about the mistake.

  95. Anonymous

    7 May, 2010 - 8:32 pm

    David wrote:

    “This labour government inherited an economy that was is ok shape, and they have stolen its life blood to pay for their own communist agenda ( note i say communist not socialist) Your pension is worthless, your taxes are too high, your freedoms are GONE. I will never forgive the labour party for the last 10 years.”

    LOL. What colour is the sky in your world, Dave? New Labour serves its corporate masters and has even gone on its sword for them.

  96. Courtenay Barnett

    7 May, 2010 - 8:36 pm

    Craig – quick – your comments are needed.

    A. George Galloway lost his seat.

    B. Jack Straw won with an increased majority.

    c. What do you make of it?

  97. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 9:03 pm

    Even though I didn’t vote, I could not have asked for a better Result.

    You see, even the politicans now actually have to talk to each other and explore each other’s ideas to try and find a Good Policy.

    The Policy is How We Move Forward and Try And Solve Our Problems

    And because it is all so uncertain

    Before they reach the Policy – The Route To Achieve The Destination….

    They will have time to ask us

    Where do we want to go?

    THE DICTATORS

    Now Become

    LISTENERS

    I have travelled the World

    Never underestimate the people who live in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales…

    Whilst we have our Differences

    The Entire World is Watching Us

    And not without a Great Deal of Affection

    Tony

  98. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 9:35 pm

    Courtenay,

    It is not a problem

    George Galloway deserves a decent holiday

    To lick some cats and behave like a Pussy…but when the time is right…

    And the New Government is Formed…

    And if The Americans Are Giving Us a Hard Time

    We Will Send Our Foreign Minister

    To Represent Our Interests

    Even Hilary Clinton isn’t in the same league

    George Galloway Would Eat Her Alive

    The Americans are Completely in AWE of Him

    The responses you read after his performance from all shades of opinions in America

    Is -

    “I wish we had a politician like that”

    Check out Youtube if you don’t believe me.

    Tony

  99. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 9:54 pm

    With Of Course Nigel Farage as Co-Pilot on George Galloway’s European Trips

    I can’t think of any other Politicians Worthy of Mention

    Tony

  100. mary

    7 May, 2010 - 10:10 pm

    Nadine Dorries has been the subject of some of Craig’s blog posts.

    Here she is at a recent election meeting in Flitwick on video with Tim Ireland of Bloggerheads. Fun and games. She is full of herself. However does she get re-elected?

    http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives/2010/05/nadine_dorries_18.asp

    This refers to her expenses claim.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/05/jump_you_bastar.html

    If you google ‘did nadine dorries have to repay expenses’ there are many links.

  101. techniciolour

    7 May, 2010 - 10:11 pm

    mary, hey, the way things are at the moment, it doesn’t really make much difference…

  102. technicolour

    7 May, 2010 - 10:12 pm

    i meant, what Dismore calls himself!

  103. Duncan McFarlane

    7 May, 2010 - 10:21 pm

    other Richard – Labour governments have supported plenty of dictators. They didnt stop selling hawk fighter jets and spare parts for them to Suharto after they won in 97 either. Brown didnt stop backing and arming the Saudi monarchy either – who are corrupt, torturing dictators.

    Craig’s right – most Conservatives aren’t fascists, just as most Labour ones aren’t Stalinists (excepting John Reid, Jack Straw etc who are wannabe free market Stalinists, who would like to rule the same way the free market Maoists do in China these days)

  104. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 10:23 pm

    Deek Jackson

    Leader of The Landless Peasents Party

    Gets The Job

    Of Astronomer Royal

    We were discussing Deek last night

    And we wanted to save his Soul

    If you want to find Deek Jackson, then it is a slow process that no human being can accept too much too soon

    There is Too Much Brilliant Material To Just Link To One

    He has done this all himself

    He is Scottish

    Deek is Amazing

    No – Go and Find

    The FUCKING NEWS YOURSELF

    he spells it fknnewz or something and every single week for over 2 years – on Friday Nights

    He would post his own version of the week’s news from his garden shed with better than BBC Studio Graphics Quality

    Check out Deek

    He was the bloke with the raised fist behind Gordon Brown last night

    He got 57 votes

    Tony

  105. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 11:05 pm

    And so far as Old Holborn is Concerned

    Yes I Too Love The Film V For Vendatta

    But If You Are Going To Copy Guido

    Who to be fair to him, he didn’t actually delete any of my posts – though some I had to wait for over 5 hours until he had approved them – I was a bit strong

    The Fucking Guardian, Daily Mail Independent…or any of the rest Never Publicise Anything I Write…

    Sorry for the poor structure of this message…

    Yes I saw You Old Holborn

    But if You Actually Get Invited To Say Something and You Are Wearing This Quite Impressive Mask and Uniform

    Use a bit of Technology Too

    For Coolant You Could Ask NASA about their Spacemen who it is Rumoured Landed On The Moon and Came Back

    And For Speech From Behind The Mask, Maybe You Could Try a little microphone and speaker

    You can buy the complete kit from Maplins for about £10

    Otherwise

    Good Performance…

    But you aint in the same league as Deek

    (I can feel the heavy breath of the Editor behind me)

    I had a great shag after a row in Cambridge

    I wasn’t into punting. I was wearing My Yorkshire Gliding T-Shirt

    Tony

  106. anno

    7 May, 2010 - 11:36 pm

    I reckon the kids who didn’t live under the Tories thought the best way to wind up us grown-ups would be to vote Tory and bring the system to a grinding halt. Craig can’t be serious when he talks about finishing off the Tories.

    They did enough to finish themselves off last time.

    The fact of a protest vote against New Labour putting the Tories in range of power is down to Blair’s removing the process of internal debate in politics. If government returned to tolerating independent minded M.P.’s internal criticism, the general public would not have to use a protest vote for the Tories to get their dissatisfactions heard.

    The hung parliament forces M.P.s to discuss instead of being whipped into party policy. This is the first time discussion has been allowed at Westminster for 13 years, so politicians have forgotten how to do it. They should start, not with economics and electioneering issues, but with a debate on Banking and War. We have to castrate the banks and separate the UK from US foreign policy. Which is in my opinion one and the same debate.

    The UK economy was doing exceedingly well before these two cock-ups. Once parliament has cleared up these two rogue issues imposed on us by dictators Thatcher and Blair, the economy will recover on its own. Without exorcising these ghosts, the UK will fail to recover. A Tory/LibDem pact should prosecute Blair for war crimes and the bankers for fraud. You think the Tories will put Nick Clegg in the Foreign Office when they’ve got their own wetter than wet Dominic Grieve.? I suppose that angelic face of his might come in useful for starting the next illegal war.

  107. tony_opmoc

    7 May, 2010 - 11:42 pm

    When I was young and innocent about 15 years ago and the Internet was just starting off…

    I looked at the Friends Re-United Website

    amd I was reading about the lives of some of my School Friends from when I was 7 Years Old.

    I remembered them and their names so clearly – and I was delighted that some of my friends had moved all over the World (many to Australia and New Zealand)

    And i thought avout getting back in contact and I had already done this re a Girlfriend I had had no contact with for over 20 years

    But then I thought – well that is more than 30 years…

    But still I wanted to know how they were getting on…

    And then the owners of Friends Re-United sold it for Several Million Quid – and The New Owners Were So Completely Incompetent – They Lost all The Original Database…

    Or maybe the original owners retained it – but we are now talking 50 years

    I can’t phone Hannah Hrubiak up in Australia after over 50 years and ask how are you doing?

    “I used to sit next to you in class when we were in Primary School. You helped me tie my Shoe Laces”

    I think her Parents were from Hungary

    Tony

  108. amk

    7 May, 2010 - 11:47 pm

    “Sadly Clegg hasn’t committed to … higher taxes on big firms and billionaires”

    Not true: he is committed to raising capital gains tax.

  109. mary

    7 May, 2010 - 11:49 pm

    A commentary by David Hare in the Guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/07/uk-election-results-new-labour-rip

    Good title

    UK Election Results New Labour RIP 1992-2010

    but NOT these words – ‘Went wrong’.

    Cameron has sweated for every vote, but since the Iraq invasion went wrong, New Labour was always living on borrowed time.

  110. Mr M

    7 May, 2010 - 11:54 pm

    Of all the b!tching Nigel Farage use to do about particular women wearing one too many cloths on their heads, he nearly died flying with one too many cloths of banners.

  111. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 12:10 am

    The thing I can’t understand is…

    Didn’t all these Public School Boys have any Girlfriends when they were

    3 and 5 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 and 11

    *I lost my first when I was 4

    She was called Susan Speakman and her Parents took her to Australia

    There were others and my Best Mate’s Dad recorded us all in Colour on His Home Movie Cameras (I had no idea – this was in the 1950′s)

    Of course I really fancied his older sister Stephanie

    But she was at least 2 years older than me and when you are 5 or 6 – the time difference is a lot greater…

    He was called Bernard Whitney – not sure of his older sister name – but I can kind of remember some really early stuff about her – but it was probably my brain playing tricks

    You see – My Parents Were Seriously Programming Me To Become a Roman Catholic Priest

    And when I was 10 years old sent me to a Catholic Priests Training College (My Dad went to Ushaw)

    But after 1 Day

    I came home

    I Prefer Girls

    I want To Go To a NORMAL SCHOOL

    That has Boys and Girls

    And So I Did

    Unlike my older brothers and sisters who all went to single sex schools

    That’s Oldham for You

    Where Do You Come From?

    Tony

  112. anno

    8 May, 2010 - 12:14 am

    Mary, quite right, the Iraq invasion did not go wrong, it was wrong from before it was started. We the public need to see some public executions of those who conceived that war. We also need to see David Cameron pretending to sweat about the bankers and banking non-industry fraud. Step one. Use waterproofing silicone spray over the prospective prime ministerial forehead. Step 2. Spray on skin contracting Gel to make false furrows of conviction and sincerity on the said brow. Step three. Use forehead perspiration spray.

    Not to mention false tan spray, hair spray, and anti-static spray to hide the fact that he is Mrs Thatcher under a rubber mask.

  113. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 12:41 am

    She gave it to me.

    I was working with her.

    She knew I liked Rock Music

    And I lent her my Music

    And she lent me Hers

    And I Fell In Love With Neil Young

    And I found out the details of how to Fly To New York when I was about 21 Years Old

    She and Neil

    Led Me to Find My

    Heart of Gold

    Sometimes I wake in the Morning and I See Her Face next to me and I think I am in heaven

    Sure we will Do 50 years Together

    We are Already More Than Half Way There

    I Love Her So Much

    She is My Wife

    She is an ANGEL

    She Comes From Lancashire

    Tony

  114. Chris Dooley

    8 May, 2010 - 1:23 am

    Tony, she must be an angel to put up with your rambling ;)

    I wish I could find my heart of gold… been close, but no cigar yet.

  115. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 1:25 am

    I have tried to Apologise To The American People, But I think we should Do more

    I am Completely Serious About This.

    25% of American Children Are Going Hungry.

    Please just forget all your prejudices of what you think it is like for ordinary Americans

    I sent $10 a Couple of Years Ago

    I thought it was the least I could do

    http://feedingamerica.org/

    I said this

    Sorry,

    I Feel Really Guilty About This

    I have been writing in England

    I really want to find the words

    To Apologise

    For British Petreloeum

    I once applied for a job with them, but they didn’t even give me an interview

    Sorry,

    Tony – I come from Oldham, Lancashire England

    I’ve been writing stuff on Craig Murray’s website

    He usually deletes 90% of what I write but I think he is a bit knackered through campaigning

    To try and get a Liberal Candidate elected

    The Green Party Candidate Today took Brighton Pavillion in The UK General Election and Everyone in The Supermarket Was Elated

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

    After a wait of 25 years the Green Party finally arrived in Westminster yesterday after the voters of Brighton Pavilion elected Caroline Lucas as the country’s first Green MP.

    The former Oxfam adviser was elected on by far the most radical manifesto of all the parties, and immediately promised that she would “constantly shine a light on the gap between the other parties’ rhetoric, and what they actually deliver”.

    The fact that Ms Lucas is the first Green MP anywhere in the world to be elected under the first-past-the-post system underlines the remarkable scale of her achievement as the leader of a party which a decade ago was widely regarded as a political joke, and which she herself has been instrumental in modernising. Amid 6am scenes of delight and jubilation from her supporters, the 49-year-old current MEP for South-east England ?” a position she will resign ?” took the seat by overturning a Labour majority of nearly 6,000, with an impressive 31 per cent of the vote.

    Her election ended the anomaly by which Britain was the only major European country which had never had Green members of its national legislature. The new politics founded in the 1970s by Die Grunen in Germany, which for the first time put the environment at the top of the agenda alongside the economy, health and education, has finally taken root in Westminster, and Ms Lucas said she was confident that more Green MPs would follow her.

    “All the evidence we have of getting Greens on to local councils, into the Scottish Parliament, into the European Parliament and the London Assembly shows that once we get that foot in the door, we’re here to stay,” she said.

    There is no doubt that her success represents a crucial breakthrough for her party, in terms of political credibility, although hers was the only victory in what was the Greens’ biggest general election campaign ever, with 335 candidates standing around the country at a cost of nearly £400,000, a hefty sum for such a small party.

    The Greens had concentrated on the three target seats of Brighton Pavilion, Norwich South and Lewisham Deptford, in all of which they had strong support with significant representation on the local councils. But in truth they had bet the farm on Pavilion, the constituency at the heart of what is Britain’s most “alternative” city where the Greens have always had a strong presence ?” in the last election in 2005 they secured 22 per cent of the vote, their best parliamentary result up to that time.

    Three factors led to their success, the sympathetic nature of the constituency being the first. The second was the personality of Ms Lucas herself. Passionate and articulate, radical while seeming unthreatening, Ms Lucas is the most formidable political operator produced by the Green Party since Jonathon Porritt a quarter of a century ago, and a world away from the image of the Green party activist as a sandal-wearing lentil eater.

    The third factor behind her success was the Greens’ work to get their vote out in the constituency on Thursday, a professional operation which involved 200 volunteers, with vote-checkers at all the 50-plus polling stations. “We have come a huge way in the last 20 years, and what we have done in particular is to professionalise our approach,” she said.

    “But what I would highlight is that we haven’t changed the policies. What’s happened is that some of the issues we’ve been forecasting for very many years, including [the] reality of climate change, for example, have actually come to pass, and therefore our policies are being seen as ever more urgent and ever more relevant.”

    Yet it was by no means clear on election night that her success was a foregone conclusion. Arriving at the count at the Brighton Centre on the seafront at midnight, she looked tired and drained and said she felt “sick and nervous with the weight of so many people’s expectations on me”.

    The first sign of success came at 5.45am when the returning officer summoned the candidates and their agents, and Ms Lucas’s husband, Richard Savage, emerged with a smile the size of a soup plate. A few minutes later his partner was telling her cheering supporters: “For once, ‘historic’ fits the bill.” She had polled 16,238 votes, compared with the 14,986 of her nearest rival, the Labour candidate, Nancy Platts, and said she felt “exhausted but incredibly happy”.

    By contrast, the Tory candidate, former banker Charlotte Vere, who had slipped from second in the polls in January to trail in third place with 12,275 votes, looked like she had swallowed a wasp.

    Tony

  116. Alfred

    8 May, 2010 - 1:57 am

    Hey, Tony,

    You were on about LABOR having no one to represent them. Then I asked, if they did have someone to represent them, what would their representatives seek on their behalf? In particular, how do you get 20% of the workforce back to full-time work that provides not only income but dignity.

    You never replied. Why not? Were you just in standard left wing whinge mode and really you don’t give a damn? I hope not. I was hoping for enlightenment.

  117. wendy

    8 May, 2010 - 2:00 am

    why nick clegg and not tory-lab .. and leave the libs out in the frost.

    why the vested interest in conservative victory by so many even those purporting to support the lib dems – i suspect the support given by guardian et al was all about a tory victory more than support for clegg .. who is after all more tory than cameron and a neo con ideologue rather than a lib dem.

    think obama and you have clegg … dont expect anything good.

  118. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 3:08 am

    Well I have posted far more words in America over the past couple of years or so

    I think Americans are so completely Brilliant

    Because they look after me and my family

    They let me say anything, but only remove the words I would want them to

    You see, My Daughter Has Been Invited To America Twice in 6 Months By American Kids That She Has Met at University

    And so when I post all the details about her being arrested (completely innocently – she just wouldn’t run away) when she was 15

    They delete all those details because they hope the details haven’t got in the US Border Control Database

    I point out that – well they have got her DNA. Tony Blair ordered it – He’s Got The DNA of All The 15 Year old Kids Who Told The Cunts Who Kicked Them To The Ground And Cuffed Them From Behind With a Knee In Their Back To FUCK OFF

    Tony

  119. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 3:10 am

    “Tony: I think the driver is called Nathaniel and he’s heading for North West Ontario (I think that’s what it stands for).”

    Oh Dog!

    MJ: Do you believe the Rothschilds also happen to be lizards?

    Just curious…

    Anyway, I thought that Gordon Brown was quoted as being in favour of the New World Order so why are the omnipotent overlords getting rid of him?

  120. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 3:27 am

    angrysoba,

    Are you still in Japan?

    Almost the Entire World Seems To Be in England

    Exhibiting Their Art

    New Art Galleries Are Opening Up In All Our High Streets

    And Our Local Artists Are Selling Their Work

    And Making a Good Living

    Tony

  121. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 3:46 am

    “Are you still in Japan?”

    I am, sir!

    “Almost the Entire World Seems To Be in England”

    I was wondering where everyone had gone.

    “New Art Galleries Are Opening Up In All Our High Streets”

    Well there are about four or five on our street too. All by local artists too and you’re not having them!

  122. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 3:57 am

    I’ve been wanting to reply to Glenn about his disaster scenario that he eloquently posted earlier today

    But they were all talking election bollocks and I thought I can’t intrude…

    All I was going to say is

    in a whisper – I should use a font with an exceedingly large – or is it small number

    the earth moves and has been doing for an exceedingly long period of time

    that oil has been deep down there at an incredible depth for a very long time

    But natural oil spills and volcanoes happen all the time (over recorded history)

    Sometimes the Volcanoes Make Life Tough on The Land

    But The Natural Underground Volcanoes and Oil Emissions which also happen almost all the time

    Only cause relatively minor destuction of the Earths Oceans and The Life That Lives There

    The Water in The Earth’s Ocean is Enormous

    It’s less than one drop of fairy liquid in an Olympic Sized Swimming Pool…

    If you don’t believe me, then travel the world and get you head down and dive amongst the Real Quality

    You Can Fly In The Air With Your Gliding Mates and VERY Occasionlly some Soaring Eagles…

    And You Can Dive In The Ocean with Your Mates – and find that you are much more easily accepted and that it is so much easier so long as you can conytol your breathing and do not panic

    My lad can do it freestyle

    We were snorkelling together and we had no diving gear except flippers…

    And I had my underwater video camera…

    And this

    Not Manta Ray – They are Easy

    No This Stingray Came Flying Through About 50 feet below

    I passed my lad my video camera and Gestured Go Fuck that fish right up its arse with the video camera

    And so he did.

    I was extremely impressed, but he and his sister did start doing this diving thing before they were legally allowed to do it in some places in the world and got their Full Diving Certificates rather early

    Tony

  123. Ellie

    8 May, 2010 - 6:54 am

    No, no, no, no, NO!

    I mean, yes, we should absolutely remember 1974, but the lessons you are taking from it are (IMO) completely the wrong ones.

    The Lib Dems will never achieve a strong position while we have first past the post. This is because the system breaks down when we get near 25% of the vote, making steady continuous growth of vote share from 25 – 40% impossible. The system resets and casts one of the three parties back down. Inevitably the Lib Dems, not because people don’t want to vote yellow, but because they know it’s more likely to be wasted if they do. To get anywhere with FPTP, we need to achieve an instant jump from 20% to 40% of the vote, leap frogging one of the other parties and avoiding the range where FPTP is broken. That is self-evidently never going to happen.

    The hung parliament followed by reset is what we saw in 1974. It had little or nothing to do with the choice of whether to join a coalition or not, and it has taken us 35 years to climb back from that reset to where we are today. If we do not drop everything right now to fight for electoral reform it is only a matter of time before we get shoved down again.

    This is not a choice between a safe slow steady growth and a risky Lib/Lab pact with a slim chance of reform. It is a choice between a slim chance of reform and certain destruction, the only question is when.

    This time, unlike 1974, serious reform is on the table. Voters want it, they wanted a hung parliament and they are angry enough to fight for it. They have shown they are mature enough to deal with the sort of politics PR would deliver and, if the Lib Dems let them down by not going after it with everything they have, they will never forgive the party.

  124. Owen Lee Hugh-Mann

    8 May, 2010 - 8:14 am

    “New Art Galleries Are Opening Up In All Our High Streets”

    The reason behind this is that there are schemes set up by councils offering the space to local artists for nothing in order to prevent high streets throughout Britain from becoming a wasteland of boarded up shops, further depressing business for the retailers that remain. Now the election period is over and the cuts are about to begin you can expect a LOT more of them.

  125. mary

    8 May, 2010 - 8:18 am

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/election_2010/article7120182.ece

    What tosh. She is as lightweight as the husband but not as nasty. Definitely a member of the ‘haves’.

    The one comment is spot on.

    How can the LDs get into bed with the likes of these people?

  126. Frazer

    8 May, 2010 - 9:30 am

    Craig..you should publish another book ‘The Blog Ramblings Of Tony And Other Bloggers I Have Known’…Tony mate, I think you are great..Keep the thoughts coming !

  127. Anonymous

    8 May, 2010 - 9:38 am

    Craig Murray

    If this were 1997 and somebody came on here and told you what was going to happen in the next thirteen years would you would have called them ‘daft’.

  128. Tony

    8 May, 2010 - 9:53 am

    Has anyone else noticed the similarities to a Harry Potter story?

    Cameron = Malfoy

    Brown = Hagrid

    Clegg = Harry Potter

  129. derek

    8 May, 2010 - 10:06 am

    Ellie @ 6:54

    Could Labour actually deliver on PR? It would only take a couple of rebels to scupper it.

  130. Anonymous

    8 May, 2010 - 10:07 am

    J.K Rowling’s backing Hagrid.

  131. Anonymous

    8 May, 2010 - 10:25 am

    Harry Potter is backing Malfoy

  132. Anonymous

    8 May, 2010 - 10:38 am

    ‘How can the LDs get into bed with the likes of these people?’

    You don’t look at the fireplace when your stoking your bank account

  133. ScouseBilly

    8 May, 2010 - 11:08 am

    When we move away from the UK media and look in to our bubble through the eyes of the North West Ontario media what do we see?

    A parlour game.

    It seems Greece has got their attention.

    Anyone else see parallels with Venezuela?

    If so, who will be the Greek “Chavez”?

  134. Clark

    8 May, 2010 - 11:35 am

    Ellie at 6:54,

    I agree that electoral reform should be the prime objective of the Lib Dems now, and that the system they should insist upon is STV.

  135. Frank Bowles

    8 May, 2010 - 11:43 am

    Its a bit tight but Liberal Democrat Voice are running a consultation on what the party should do at http://www.libdemvoice.org/what-should-the-party-do-next-have-your-say-by-2pm-on-saturday-19386.html which will be fed to the executive if you respond by 2pm.

    I’m sorry if its against the prevailing tide but any independent analysis of the voting system will show that it is broken – I don’t believe we need a referendum to tell us that. The Liberal Democrats should be asking for legislation on PR as the price for formal support. And we should be prepared to sup with any devil to achieve it — even though a pact with the Tories is pretty suicidal for activists like me in the West of Scotland. We change the system before we vote again. All else follows.

  136. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 May, 2010 - 12:23 pm

    The Americans will look after you Tony. As a treat they took me to Cher stadium to see the Beach Boys playing and one of them, I think is was Brian, was wrecked but still managed a ‘Sloop John B.’ I returned the treat by playing guitar and singing the ol’ Cockney favourites (Roll out the Barrel etc) at a garden party in the pristine neighbourhood of Hartford Conn.

    Happy days Tony – Oh good luck with the guitar playing – if you want a few tips just ask.

    Mark

  137. wendy

    8 May, 2010 - 12:49 pm

    looks like clegg is about to take the murdoch shilling.

  138. Anonymous

    8 May, 2010 - 1:05 pm

    ‘the entire Murdoch and Tory media empires will again be deployed against us to devastating effect.’

    I speak to you for the first time as a very disgruntled voter in a solemn hour for the life of our country, and, above all, of the cause of freedom. A tremendous battle is raging in the UK. The Tories, by a remarkable combination of media bombing and heavily armored Murdoch tanks, have broken through our defenses and strong columns of their armored vehicles are ravaging the open country.

  139. ScouseBilly

    8 May, 2010 - 1:46 pm

    Insanity in individuals is something rare – but in groups, parties, nations and epochs it is the rule… . — Friederich Nietzsche

    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article19260.html

    Nema Barikada !!

  140. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 2:55 pm

    May I offer my own little contribution to electoral reform?

    I think it is necessary but the idea that PR is the only solution seems wrong to me.

    I’d like a bicameral system in which the upper house is voted in by constituencies. This would actually make voting for independents easier. It would be locally based and allow those representatives to vote for personalities as they may choose to do with people who I respect (even if I disagree with) such as Mr. Murray.

    Then the lower house could be voted in by PR and on a different time-scale. This would allow for parties (which we should all be suspicious of) to get votes they otherwise wouldn’t.

  141. mary

    8 May, 2010 - 3:05 pm

    There is a large (about 1,000 people) and vocifeous demo in Smith Square in London demanding to speak to Clegg and for a fairer voting system.

  142. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 3:14 pm

    FWIW I disagree with an elected House of Lords. Either they’re ‘Lords’ and relics of an ancient system unshackled by political allegiances, or they’re not.

    Of course all political parties have been brilliantly trying to corrupt this for ages. Lord Mandelson! So far though, the House has remained fairly independent, and often the only brake on terrible laws. Elect them and it’ll be – yes, another House of Commons, just snobbier. DO we really want that?

    I think the Lib Dems should refuse to form a government too. The sight of Major arguing that ‘a couple of Lib Dems in the cabinet is a price worth paying’ rather showed how much their influence would be valued, I suggest.

    angrysoba: did you access link I gave on previous Alfred post yet?

  143. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 3:14 pm

    “about 1,000 people”

    Mary, that’s about the same number of people who did 9/11. Can’t trust numbers like that.

  144. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 3:16 pm

    Asoba: you might want to take into account the fear that now surrounds the idea of demonstrating here & also exhaustion.

  145. mary

    8 May, 2010 - 3:17 pm

    Interesting that young Master Will Straw is there.

    Reporter: So you’re here for the Labour party?

    Straw: No not at all. I have wanted a fairer system of voting for some time…

    Earlier Billy Bragg predicted that D Miliband will be PM next week!! Said that the Tories will never allow PR>

  146. brian

    8 May, 2010 - 3:18 pm

    From the Telegraph:

    “The Lib Dem source said discussions between Mr Clegg and David Cameron, the Conservative leader, had been ‘convivial’”

    Of course they were convivial – I wouldn’t be surprised if they were second cousins.

  147. mary

    8 May, 2010 - 3:24 pm

    Angrysoba The figure is that provided by Laura Kunesberg of the BBC (or ZBC as I call it). The size of the crowd is said to be growing.

    Why don’t you tell us a little about the Japanese PM’s efforts to get the Yanks out of Okinawa and the resistance he is encountering?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8668705.stm

  148. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 3:31 pm

    “angrysoba: did you access link I gave on previous Alfred post yet?”

    No, I didn’t technicolour. Can I say that I have found you to be one of the best commenters here (always being liberal/left in the ways I have always thought it should be – opposing racism)

  149. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 3:41 pm

    “Why don’t you tell us a little about the Japanese PM’s efforts to get the Yanks out of Okinawa and the resistance he is encountering?”

    I could do and would do but the nuances might be lost on you.

    There are plenty of people who want the US bases moved and the Japanese PM has promised it but he has never given a clear idea about where they should be moved to. Maybe you’d like to point out what they should do.

    On the other hand, it seems the Japanese PM is going to let the US stay because he is worried that leaving will allow the Chinese and the Russians to assume a position of strength in the area that they didn’t have before.

    My own wife actually wants the US bases to leave but other, older (and I think wiser) Japanese that I know want the US bases to stay. A friend of mine who is 77 years old tells me that the current Japanese prime minister is the worst that they have ever had because he is naiive and has absolutely no idea about how the Chinese and North Koreans will react to signs of weakness.

    The problem with people like you, Mary, is that you think that grovelling before people makes people respect you. It doesn’t. It makes them have contempt for you.

  150. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 3:45 pm

    “The problem with people like you, Mary, is that you think that grovelling before people makes people respect you. It doesn’t. It makes them have contempt for you.”

    What I meant was “grovelling before your enemies”…

  151. Suhayl Saadi

    8 May, 2010 - 4:00 pm

    Clegg will be the fox for the Tories’ hounds. Tally-ho!

  152. Manda Scott

    8 May, 2010 - 4:02 pm

    The problem with this plan is that the Tories will institute boundary changes that’ll make them almost impossible to evict – and then they’ll obliterate all possible action on climate change, destroy the economy and undo what little social equity the Blair/Brown failed enterprise has created.

    It’ll be a sore and sorry mess and we won’t be rid of them for years.

  153. mary

    8 May, 2010 - 4:08 pm

    Your reply is revealing and also patronising.

    You key words are weakness, stength, enemies…

    The Japanese have already had two holocausts delivered upon their people. They probably do not want another.

    Anyway your scenario of Chinese and Russian enemies is so outdated. WWIII will start in the Persian Gulf if the Israelis get their way and nuclear weapons can be delivered at long range via missiles. An American base (one of 700 worldwide) on a Japanese island irrelevant.

    We have had enough of burning human flesh now.

  154. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 4:13 pm

    Here’s how to contact the Lib Dems & leave a message, though their phone lines are busy and I bet they’ve all collapsed. I hope Nick Clegg at least takes the weekend to sleep on it:

    info@libdems.org.uk

    phone on (020) 7222 7999.

    angrysoba: thanks for compliment. Tried to re-contemplate your elected upper house idea but realised this would result in Noel Edmonds and Simon Cowell running the country. Or anyone else with the funds to run for election. Perhaps I’m being too cynical.

    Mary: don’t think anyone who’s promoting a people’s demo outside Parliament can be accused of ‘grovelling before their enemies’. Perhaps it’s the name – I picture you as a bearded Cornish ex-fisherman, in fact. Otherwise, how would PR here serve the interests of the Israeli state?

  155. ScouseBilly

    8 May, 2010 - 4:22 pm

    Manda Scott: “and then they’ll obliterate all possible action on climate change, destroy the economy…”

    Hilarious.

  156. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 4:24 pm

    Clegg should be saying something, I feel. Latest message on Lib Dem website is a bit rubbish. Maybe he’s too knocked back by the results and doesn’t believe the genuine good well that was there towards the Lib Dems?

    @Mary, ignore that last question, subject far too off topic.

  157. Suhayl Saadi

    8 May, 2010 - 4:34 pm

    “Noel Edmonds and Simon Cowell running the country.” Technicolour

    Oh my God! That would be my idea of the ninth circle of Hell. I’m not a celebrity so please get me out of here!

    I do understand Angrysoba’s concern about the Upper Chamber becoming a sort of retirement asset for Geoff Hoon, Neil Hamilton and Patricia Hewitt, not to mention “I’m a taxi, broom-broom!” Stephen Byers. I guess there’s no way of totally avoiding patronage, corruption and sleaze but perhaps if there were different modes of inflow, it might be minimised or at least there’d be checks and balances, so it wouldn’t be hegemonic Noel Edmonds – from whose cynical jowls even Lucifer would run!

    “Get me out of here, I’m just a devil, I didn’t ask for this! Take me back up there, I promise I’ll be really good, I’ll polish my wings, I won’t exhibit more than 8,000 lux and I will bow down before humankind! But Peter, there’s a good chap, there’s a good rock, please, please don’t send Noel Edmonds down here!”

    Lucifer, Rising Again in the Face of Noel Edmonds

  158. mary

    8 May, 2010 - 4:43 pm

    Technicolour I am puzzled. I was replying to Angrysoba. He used the phrase ‘grovelling before your enemies’ in a reply to my question about the Japanese people wanting an American base removed from Okinawa.

  159. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 4:46 pm

    @mary, sorry not to be clear – was saying I didn’t see it, myself.

  160. Richard Robinson

    8 May, 2010 - 5:04 pm

    “I guess there’s no way of totally avoiding patronage, corruption and sleaze but perhaps if there were different modes of inflow, it might be minimised or at least there’d be checks and balances”

    Yes. An elected HoL would make them subject to all the same pressures that need to be checked-and-balanced, it needs to be selected by a criterion that’s not connected with those for the HoC. (Though I wouldn’t mind if the lower-house criteria could move away from the current “I’m an emptier suit than my opponents”).

  161. angrysoba

    8 May, 2010 - 5:43 pm

    “WWIII will start in the Persian Gulf if the Israelis get their way ”

    Mary, Mary, quite contrary!

    The Israelis don’t want war! They want peace! They want to live in peace! How many of the wars since 1948 were started by the Israelis?

  162. Suhayl Saadi

    8 May, 2010 - 6:02 pm

    Ah, here we go… boom, boom, boom!

    1956

    1967

    1976

    1982

    2006

    2009

    Re. the first four of these (the ones fought while he was alive), Menachim Begin said so.

    http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0794/9407073.htm

  163. Suhayl Saadi

    8 May, 2010 - 6:05 pm

    Israel – whatever party is in power – wants a Pax Israelica. Peace, with itself as regional hegemon and everyone else in the area as a slave.

  164. Suhayl Saadi

    8 May, 2010 - 6:16 pm

    Btw, I do not write this as someone who hates Israelis or whatever. But I think that if Israel wants to survive in the long-term, it needs to accede that other people in the region are human beings and engage on a real peace process, not the fake, forked-tongued ones it has favoured hitherto. Some of my pals have lived on kibbutzes, etc. and I very much enjoyed visiting a reading by an Israeli-American (by which I mean his father was an Israeli who moved to America) writer in Washington, DC, a journalist, I forget his name right now, who was of Kurdish origin and who spoke very well about the relations that previously existed b/w Muslims and Jews in the Middle East. I want to see the end of war in that region.

  165. Courtenay Barnett

    8 May, 2010 - 6:18 pm

    @ Tony,

    I have seen the clip of Galloway before the US Senate Committee. Quite impressive.

    Galloway is still a young man, and I suspect that we have not heard the last of him in politics. He is down but most probaly not finally out.

    CB

  166. Alfred

    8 May, 2010 - 6:37 pm

    Why no support for the outright merger of Cons and Libs, I wonder. I mean, they’re both fascists according to John Pilger. He makes it sound like the perfect match:

    “All three party leaders are warmongers. Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrats leader and darling of former Blair lovers, says that as prime minister he will “participate” in another invasion of a “failed state” provided there is “the right equipment, the right resources”. His one condition is the standard genuflection towards a military now scandalised by a colonial cruelty of which the Baha Mousa case is but one of many.

    For Clegg, as for Gordon Brown and David Cameron, the horrific weapons used by British forces, such as clusters, depleted uranium and the Hellfire missile, which sucks the air out of its victims’ lungs, do not exist. The limbs of children in trees do not exist. This year alone Britain will spend £4 billion on the war in Afghanistan, and that is what Brown and Cameron almost certainly intend to cut from the National Health Service.”

    Read the rest of it here:

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25392.htm

  167. alan campbell

    8 May, 2010 - 7:08 pm

    Rejoice, rejoice, the dictator-loving mountebank Galloway kicked out by the electorate(as were the other Respect candidates). Along with the thrashing of Nick Griffin, that has to be a highlight of election night. Such a shame he was too embarrassed to face the announcement. Still, one less bigot is the main thing.

  168. lwtc247

    8 May, 2010 - 7:46 pm

    Alfred… Pilgers article was great.

    I’m just waiting for the Lib Dem voters to NeoLabourize their minds, develop logical and moral redaction and start ranting off the “need” to bring stability and democracy to the ‘stans’ and Iraq, expressing “regret” at the deaths of more innocent people, and now much more money needs to be spent to claim more new scalps, young or old, male or female, born or yet to be born – it doesn’t matter, it will be a ‘price worth paying’, and a ‘necessary sacrifice’. The prediction is so obvious it may as well be scrawled into the history books right now.

    That good old Shitish Army literally caving out and up Afghanistan – which will coincidentally ‘emerge’ as a hobbled country with a pro-western outlook, eager to acquire foreign revenue, yes, that good old Shitish Army, will engage in further acts of mass crime and cowardice – a Caucasian speciality I might add, while reverse Robin Hoods make off with the last remaining loot before the UK’s usurious system comes apart at the seams.

    Accomplices-in-waiting-to-mass-murder, as Lib Dems are, will, when Clegg and Dave the druggie pair up ?” Dave becoming PM, will become bathed in blood the second the first(next) British bomb, bullet or Bradley kills the next Afghani Iraqi or Pakistani.

    It WAS in your name. You made it so,

  169. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 7:57 pm

    More apologies…

    *

    Lax US Regulation is largely to blame.

    The Oil companies are big and nasty and will do their best to maximise profit whilst skimping on environmental protection. They have caused complete environmental destruction in places like Nigeria because of weak or non-existent Government regulation.

    Now there have been similar accidents in the North Sea, which is a much harsher environment than the Gulf of Mexico, but there have been very few of them since the late 1960′s, because of very tight regulation by independent UK Government appointed regulators.

    Incidentally, I know one of them, and will probably see him tonight and will ask him what he thinks.

    He with his team flies out via helicopter to regularly inspect all issues with regards to all aspects of safety and good practice.

    He is a tough guy and in his spare time he does stuff like climbing up mountains in the harshest possible conditions.

    He won’t take any shit off any fucking Oil Company that is cutting corners.

    However, I do again feel the need to apologise for what BP has done, simply because I am British and know some of this stuff although I have never worked for an oil company.

    Tony

    Incidentally my friend is completely incorruptible – if anyone offered him a bribe he would stuff it down their throat

  170. Ruth

    8 May, 2010 - 8:04 pm

    Here’s an extract from a recent article by John Pilger:

    ‘All three party leaders are warmongers. Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrats leader and darling of former Blair lovers, says that as prime minister he will “participate” in another invasion of a “failed state” provided there is “the right equipment, the right resources”. His one condition is the standard genuflection towards a military now scandalised by a colonial cruelty of which the Baha Mousa case is but one of many.

    For Clegg, as for Gordon Brown and David Cameron, the horrific weapons used by British forces, such as clusters, depleted uranium and the Hellfire missile, which sucks the air out of its victims’ lungs, do not exist. The limbs of children in trees do not exist. This year alone Britain will spend £4 billion on the war in Afghanistan, and that is what Brown and Cameron almost certainly intend to cut from the National Health Service.’

  171. TheA1mighty

    8 May, 2010 - 8:11 pm

    Mr Campbell… Shame that many of the war criminals and their apologists in New Labour somehow hung onto their seats… We know how Jack Straw does it, but Hazel Blears… how on earth did she scrape back in ?

  172. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 8:12 pm

    lwtc, was asking myself if the Lib Dems could, without having been elected first, declare their intention to bring the troops home? It’s OK for the BNP to do that, because who cares, but for one of the three main parties to do so before they had the power to achieve it might be completely irresponsible. You have to plan an exit strategy first.

    I think many anti-war people voted for the Lib Dems because they felt this was the case, and were trusting on the Lib Dems’ relative decency/inexperience to do the right thing when in power.

    And now we won’t know.

  173. ScouseBilly

    8 May, 2010 - 8:18 pm

    tony_opmoc at May 8, 2010 7:57 PM

    Are we sure it wasn’t sabotage?

  174. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 8:21 pm

    technicolour,

    Whilst you may have been to the North West Frontier Province, if you want to understand the full picture then I suggest you read, listen to or even watch what a former Canadian Ambassador has to say on the subject.

    His name is Peter Dale Scott

    http://www.peterdalescott.net/

    Tony

  175. lwtc247

    8 May, 2010 - 8:28 pm

    @technicolour

    I think it’s very clear what Clegg has in store for the ‘Stans and Iraq, abundantly clear. Look at what Pilger reports on the matter.

    Despite of my dearest hopes, I have seen NO basis to think Clegg will declare a cease fire and recall of British forces. NONE AT ALL.

    He like the other two fools, carefully avoided discussion of the poisoned chalice, that of Britain’s ongoing Imperialist wars and the wards to come in the Presidential debates.

  176. tony_opmoc

    8 May, 2010 - 8:28 pm

    ScouseBilly,

    I think sabotage is highly unlikely, however I wouldn’t rule out it being a massive fake job.

    The proof is in the pudding…

    If there is absolutely complete environmental devastation and thick oil sludge all over the Gulf of Mexico wiping out all the fisheries and the tourist industry, then we will know it is real.

    But there is something about this story/event which stinks.

    A bit like the London Bombings.

    Tony

  177. Steelback

    8 May, 2010 - 8:58 pm

    Respect came out of the anti-war movement that began around 2002 with the imminent invasion of Iraq.

    From the beginning the dream rainbow coalition of pacifists,muslim groups,and SWP failed because it never nailed the 911 attacks as the false-flag trigger for the “War on Terror”.

    Typically the movement,with the Trotskyite SWP element in its vanguard,could not bring themselves to denounce the Israeli Lobby for its prime role in instigating the drive for war.

    To denounce the perpetrators of 911 and the Israeli Lobby,even to indict Zionism as the guilty party,would enable their enemies to accuse them of being “conspiracy nutters” and anti-semites.

    God forbid!

    Sheer timidity was as usual the reason for the movement’s failure to mobilize beyond the 2m march in February 2003.

    So much of the initiative has been lost since those heady days when we thought we could prevent the elite embarking on their war that neither Afghanistan or Iraq figured at all as election issues.

    Aside from the SWP having been infiltrated long ago,the egomania of Galloway,the infamous Big Brother TV appearance,and the failure to organize resistance in the work-place could only beget one result:the fragmentation and dissolution of the anti-war movement that exists today.

    The elites calculated correctly that by ignoring the 2m march and going ahead with their war they would shatter the morale of their opponents long-term.

    Few on the left today understand that the ideologies to which they owe their allegiance were created for them by the same elites that control international finance and build up and take down countries that stand athwart their geopolitical ambitions at will.

    Without this understanding the elite-administered medicine of economic collapse we are about to have rammed down our throats will face little intelligent organized opposition.

    RIP Respect and the anti-war movement.

    Long live the NWO!

  178. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 9:17 pm

    Yeah, I read the BNP were on the lookout for sites where they’re mentioned. Hello, boys! One thing you’re missing, apart from facts, is that the (one) million who marched were not trying to blame anyone for 9/11. They were trying to stop hatred and violence, not engender more.

  179. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 9:24 pm

    But there’s a sperate thread for 9/11, if you want to give your facts, of course.

  180. Mr M

    8 May, 2010 - 9:35 pm

    Clegg is def bent on getting rid of the Scottish brood than Lib Dem interests. Cameron would easily call a second election after few months when uses Cleg like a condom and grab more for a dejected and delegitimise Lib Dems and Labour.

  181. wendy

    8 May, 2010 - 10:02 pm

    fantastic isnt it .. clegg so willing to do a deal with a party that has so embraced european fascism and remain unapologetic about it.

  182. technicolour

    8 May, 2010 - 10:15 pm

    We don’t know about ‘willing’. Craig talks about ‘blandishments’ but I wonder if Clegg’s being bullied. Looks like the devil & the deep blue sea for him, to me. Hope he realises he has the choice Craig & others are suggesting, which is to hold the centre, and that it would not be an unpopular one. It will make him feel better, whatever he does. People are not just supporting PR; they refused to be scared off by the idea of a hung parliament and supported the Lib Dems regardless, almost a third of them, all the way through. No small thing, in these heightened, propaganda filled and hysterical times.

  183. Suhayl Saadi

    8 May, 2010 - 10:46 pm

    The Tories are the Legion of the Dark Wing. Clegg is in danger of becoming Renfield.

    “Master…?”

  184. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 May, 2010 - 10:58 pm

    Well said Ruth – Nick Clegg is talking to a hypocrite, a man who declares he cares, who coses up to war-lord John McCain, a man who holds his hand out to Ashcroft to the tune of £4m and then spits lies like this:

    “We need reform of party funding and I’m the only leader of a major political party that has set out a clear and coherent way that we do it. We should have limits on donations that should apply to individuals, businesses and trade unions. I’ve suggested £50,000 a year as the limit, and in response to that some modest state funding of political parties which you could offset by cutting the cost of politics, reducing the size of the House of Commons and cutting the amount that’s spent during a general election. That is a sensible package and I hope others will take it up.” – WebCameron

  185. other richard

    8 May, 2010 - 11:14 pm

    In my post above (search for “Suharto”), I should have said that BAT, which Craig praised, was one of many large firms happy to do business with the Suharto regime, which America installed and the UK (Conservatives) helped arm and prop up. Over one million people were butchered by Suharto. The UK and the US used their friendly relations with Suharto to loot the country of its resources, including its “human resources” – a terrible name to call human beings! Chile received similar treatment, and got given Pinochet.

    In response to Craig praising BAT, but attacking Sting, I don’t deny that corporations can do good. After all, corporations are just large conglomerations of various types of workers – there’s nothing inherently evil in that! The problem is who is in charge of them: wealthy CEOs, which the law has empowered with tremendous political and economic clout.

    I think it would be judicious to look at a corporation’s conduct across a range of countries, in Africa, in Indonesia, and elsewhere, before giving them – and, therefore, their CEOs – any praise. Tobacco companies, in any case, are hardly paragons of virtue: “Here, have a cigarette – it’s what all the cool kids do! No, no, it’s not harmful to your health at all.”

    Incidentally, I started smoking at 10 years old. I quit at 11 and haven’t smoked since. Fortunately for me, I never got addicted.

    BAT’s African footprint:

    . “In Uganda, 12 million people get malaria each year, and 110,000 die. BAT and other corporations blocked a government malaria prevention programme to treat farm workers’ homes with pesticides – because of fears the chemicals might contaminate their crops.

    . “Tobacco growing is not unique in its use of child labour but children on tobacco farms face particular risk from pesticide exposure and nicotine poisoning.

    . “In Kenya, BAT gives loans for seeds, pesticides and fertilisers and buys back the tobacco at a price of their choosing. To quote one farmer: ‘The loan the tobacco firm provides is really weighing us down. After the deduction you get nothing.’

    . “In Kenya, BAT’s political connections resulted in a new law compelling farmers to sell tobacco to BAT. It was already paying farmers less than other companies.

    . “BAT breached its own weak marketing code by allowing cigarettes to be sold singly – popular with children. BAT acknowledged it had begun an investigation into the alleged marketing breaches, but has failed to report publicly on its findings.

    . “BAT says it is trying to end child labour by partly funding the Eliminating Child Labour in Tobacco Growing Foundation. In 2006, ECLTG’s entire income was US$ 2.7 million ?” one-fifteenth of what the industry earns from unpaid child labour in Malawi alone ?” and around half the salary paid to BAT chief executive Paul Adams.”

    -

    These facts were extracted from ASH’s site – google “ASH” and “BAT’s African Footprint” – but are available from many other sources.

    Craig’s condemnation of Sting was entirely justified, but Craig’s lack of condemnation of the three main political parties giving corporations unprecedented control over our lives and economies is not.

    The Liberals are just another pro-corporate party. I hear no condemnation from them, let alone criticism of past Tory and Labour foreign policy abuses, which are legion. The Liberal Democrats could start with the lie, oft-repeated, that politicians failed to act over Rwanda – in reality, they actively assisted the genocide (google “Mark Curtis” and “Bloodshed and whitewash: Britain and the Rwanda genocide”

    When a political party is open and frank about what Britain is doing to foreigners, and increasingly to the British, then I’ll support them.

    The political climate is such, however, that attacking corporations – or, rather, CEOs – is considered anathema, while attacking other politicians over the real causes for the country’s prosperity, social decline, health and wealth inequalities is deemed a betrayal of one’s class.

  186. Courtenay Barnett

    8 May, 2010 - 11:25 pm

    @ lwtc247

    It was Eisenhower in the US who spoke of the Military-industrial complex:-

    “This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. ”

    1961 speech.

    And these words actually summarise much that all the industrialised nations are involved in….the arms trade as the basis for industrial production. The new British government will not smash this template.

  187. ScouseBilly

    8 May, 2010 - 11:34 pm

    other richard

    You do know ASH are an anti-tobacco activist group masquerading as a charity, don’t you?

  188. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    9 May, 2010 - 12:07 am

    Cameron on Trident:

    “Are we really happy to say that we’d give up our independent nuclear deterrent when we don’t know what is going to happen with Iran, we can’t be certain of the future in China?”

    Or Russia or North Korea or Pakistan or Israel – oh sorry, not Israel, they want peace?

    More fear mongering I guess, everyone is the enemy, and we must have these weapons at all costs. They provide us with the ultimate insurance policy which will protect us against all the vague uncertainties that the future holds. So Cameron will have us believe.

    Get a grip Cameron, you are supporting the military industrial machine and an increasingly dwindling insecure sector of the public and, appeasing Israel, who are desperate to attack Iran.

    Let us talk real Mr Cameron, let us be pragmatic for a change, if this matter endangers the very existence of Israel, sacrifice the West Bank settlements on this altar. Accept the Arab League peace offer, make peace with the Palestinians as quickly as possible. That will ease our situation in Iraq and Afghanistan and free British forces who might be required to defend the Falklands again.

    Iran would have no more pretexts for war with Israel. The masses of the Arab world would not support it anymore.

  189. wendy

    9 May, 2010 - 12:16 am

    “We don’t know about ‘willing’. Craig talks about ‘blandishments’ but I wonder if Clegg’s being bullied.”

    if he isnt willing he’d walk away. lets see.

    he is the envoy of paddy ashdown and lord owen .. war hawks … and neo con supporters.

    we are being brainwashed into believing that a deal has to be done because of the financial ‘crisis’ .. of course it doesnt but its the way the state works to get its way .. clegg is part of the state .

  190. Ellie

    9 May, 2010 - 4:36 am

    Tony @ 9:53

    I don’t know, but they already had AV in their manifesto, so it seems likely.

    Especially given the fact that, essentially, ALL the other parties have expressed willingness to join a rainbow coalition in opposition to the Conservatives. There might be enough members of small parties to counter any rebellion.

    Even the DUP are keeping the Tories at arms length and, meanwhile, the aforementioned Blues have already started to show signs of tearing themselves apart!

    Arguments that a Lib/Con coalition would deliver a more stable government are beginning to look mistaken as it looks increasingly as though Cameron’s MPs would rebel.

    Labour’s record of human rights abuses, warmongering and liberty encroachment disgust me but, I believe electoral reform is in the national interest. Turning our back on that opportunity now, because we don’t want to play with Gordon (or his successor) would seem to be cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

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