I agree with many of your views, but not this one. There is no world government. International law is merely a gentleman’s agreement between countries. Sovereign countries can, do, and should be able to choose which bits they will abide by and which bits they will ignore.

And please will you email me a copy of “Murder in Samarkand”, Craig? I’m broke.

Neil

International law plainly exists. It is encapsulated in numerous reaties and can be seen operating on the ground all over the world. Bush and Blair did it great harm. but neither Bush, Blair nor Israel has succeeded in wishing it out of existence – any more than Jack the Ripper destroyed the law of murder by getting waya with it. The law is still there. Now the government has to stand by it.

What do they bloody mean “they are not getting into that” ? Fascists

Neil – have you tried the local library, I believe they have several in Tel Aviv.

What can we expect ? Hague and Cameron are both members of Conservative Friends of Israel.

What would it take for them to resign their membership?

You miss my point, Craig. In the absence of a world government, sovereign countries can choose whether or not to abide by international law. Who made this law? Sovereign governments made it, by agreement. They are free to withdraw their assent to it at any time. And I don’t have a library, or any money!

Neil – no library? That’s shocking. Whereabouts do you live – I’ll see if I can find out if there is a mobile library service in the vicinity.

i guess it will take more than the deaths of innocent people to get them to resign chris… as proven so far…

neil

sovereign states which breach international law lay themselves open to a variety of sanctions from the international community ie other states.

That is why it is essential the UK invokes this to protect the rule of law.

Whatever your intention, your argument gives flase comfort to the “might is right” philosophy of the Bush/Blair/Israel axis.

So what you are saying Neil is that when a country agrees to something… it does not agree in principle ?

Thanks, Brian, but most of the underdeveloped/developing world (in which I live) has no access to libraries. If we want to read a good book we rely on gifts or loans. I don’t think it unreasonable for a poor but eager, would-be reader to ask a rich writer for an e-copy of one of his books.

Neil, by your logic “individual people can choose whether or not to abide by national law. Who made this law? Individual people made it, by agreement. They are free to withdraw their assent to it at any time.”

Also, I imagine the United Nations is what you are looking for, in terms of a body that can/should enforce international law and hold countries to account. (Not that it always does, but it should.)

Not sure how someone with no money or library is accessing the Internet, either. It’d be nice if you kept your begging for a book out of threads which have nothing to do with that (especially not two threads on the same day).

Craig already has a link to one of his fine free e-books… click on it at the top of this page. If you like it, maybe save up and buy the other even better fine book.

Sure, countries can reach agreements, but there is no reason why they can’t later change their minds. Real law is enforced by governments. There is no legitimate body that could possibly have the right to enforce agreements between sovereign countries. I’m not saying might is right, nor do I agree with the way some countries disregard the rights of others, but it’s a fact that countries can and do reverse agreements they reached at an earlier date. Now I have to go to work, I’m afraid. I’d be so pleased if I found an e-copy of “Murder in Samarkand” in my inbox when I return!! (-:

Craig,

Turkey is of course a NATO member. Any thoughts on that angle? A threat to withdraw if support from other NATO members is not forthcoming might not be an empty one. Having nationals killed in international waters by a foreign state would require a strong government response in any country, would it not?

Pete

Neil

You ignore the UN, the ECHR, the ICJ, the ICC, the International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea and the numerous xamples of sanctions regimes.

Neil, be careful making the assumption that all writers are rich.

Thanks Craig – I saw it coming -

Why cause an argument Neil -

Do do agree with forced starvation of children?

http://www.coia.org.uk/children_gaza.jpg

Watch out for a similar weasel word non-condemnation from Obama, Craig.

I’ve said it before, Craig Lib Dems are in the pockets of Israel.

All Major Leb Dem players are members of Lib friends of Israel.

It is a Zionist party!

Just as Labour and conservatives are Zionist parties.

Buying politicians costs a lot of money. Israel wouldn’t buy them if they didn’t get anything in return, and this is what they get in return.

Just take a good look at where the three main parties get their election funds from.

Did you actually believe the new government would behave anyway differently from the old one? Taking the Israeli side is the stock position for all major political parties (and the lib dems) you just need to look at the NPT debate.

It’s time for the Muslim nations to rise up against the scourge on earth and

it’s time for those with any morality to support the Muslim nations.

Once again the Israeli government must have had the blessing of the USA before committing this atrocity. The UK is an irrelevance, their support is taken for granted.

Why precisely is it ‘terrible’ to say “We are not getting into that, especially when the details are unclear.”?

That is what all responsible Governments(not cults) do when something such as this happens. The World is for grown ups — It’s not a kiddies sandbox, where the toddlers get to be all rush to judgment before ALL the facts are

known.

Just in the interests of honesty, I am not a big fan-boy of Palestinian anything, but at first blush I really can’t understand why Israel allowed itself to be manipulated into this really bad action(by whatever measure you want to use). So I agree with you that it was ‘unacceptable’, but probably for hugely different reasons. But ‘unacceptable’ is ‘unacceptable’.

Governments however as I said have to be ‘careful’ before rushing in. They just do. I’m sure something will get said or done in the near future. Just now RIGHT AWAY. Even if you stamp your feet and run around in circles.

Give it 24 hrs and then see.

Ah, good ol arsalan – libdems pro-israel fascists blah blah…zionist party blah blah….friend of israel blahdisoddingblah… Get a new record, mate, that one’s not fit for purpose. Or do you just plain enjoy insulting people you don’t know?

Craig – just tried phoning round the HofC, and the FCO but hey, bank holiday, no-one in, Cowley St as well. But I left messages at Cowley St and on Jeremy Browne MP (minister at the FO) office ansafone. Also emailed my local MP about the Israeli assault. Damn, feel as if I’m banging head on da wall.

dougf

It is terrible because it sends a signal that we don’t care about Israeli killings – as evidently you don’t unless they are counter-productive for the interests of Israel.

The international law of boarding a foreign flagged ship in international waters is the legal issue here, whatever transpired upon the ship. Norway and Germany and Spain are among the many coutnries who have stated the blindingly obvious.

I can tell you one fact. The murdered will still be dead after your 24 hours.

Cunt.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/?view=News&id=22300485

Dougf,

Palestinians, Israelis, Tuskans or Tatooine, does it matter – forced starvation is the issue with crossing closed into Gaza or severely restricted because the ELECTED government is considered a terrorist organisation and Israel want to “smoke ‘em out!”

But kids are dying from malnutrition and waiting 24hrs is 24hrs too long.

Who needs a ‘sandbox’ when your starving hungry dood.

Free Palestine, free Kurdistan!!!!

its a bank holiday in the uk, do the civil service work these days? (what are they for anyway?)

interesting that the usual Israeli spokspeople are given free reign on tv defending the indefensible and the fairly useless “holiday” presenters not asking any difficult questions of them, so what is the bbc for anyway?

If international law no longer counts for anything and the treaties can be discounted as and when required then with Turkey having a somewhat larger population than Israel it could if it wanted duly invade and remove it from the map once and for all.

The Israeli military just made Somali pirates look like saints by comparison.

“Cunt.”

Oh my goodness ! Colour me surprised at your ‘temperance’, and level headedness.

Did they teach you all that ‘nuanced’ verbiage in Ambassador School ? You must have been a wonderful success on the International stage.

All fanatics are the same. It matters not what they are fanatic about. It’s the ‘true belief’ that is important.

Sort of sad really.

Americans in Britain:

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6ng5bgenmw

A comment on the Guardian CIF site from

geoffreyalderman 31 May 2010, 1:13PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/may/31/israel-troops-gaza-ships?showallcomments=true#end-of-comments

“London Declaration of 1909 “Concerning The Laws Of Naval War.” This stipulated that neutrals and belligerents were to be informed if a blockade [full or partial] was to be enforced. I think we can take it that this stipulation has been complied with in this case. The London Declaration also distinguished … between different types of contraband – absolute, conditional and “free-list.” Over time since the signing of this Declaration these distinctions have all but broken down, and nowadays customary international law regards pretty much all goods being transported in a neutral vessel to a belligerent as potential contraband. In my view Israel was within its rights in demanding that the vessels in the flotilla stop and subject themselves to search. If this search could, in the judgement of the Israelis, be carried out more easily in an Israeli port within reasonable distance, so be it. ”

I expect this is or will be soon the

Israeli justification for the attack.

It may well be. I’m missing the part where it says they can shoot civilians dead during (and before) boarding of their ships, when all those civilians have as ‘weapons’ are their fists and some bits of wood (as the Turkish tv videos show) rather than the guns the Israeli military claim they had.

Glad you’ll be at the demonstration Craig – wish i could be, but i’m too far away unfortunately.

Well said Duncan – Bravo!

mike cobley

It is not an insult, it is a statement of fact comming from their own mouths.

They make no secret of their loyalty to Israel, so why do you pretend they do?

GAaaaaah! – I should know better than to allow myself to provoked by arsalan’s troll-like behaviour but…

When you say ‘they’, who do you mean? Some party members of the Liberal Democrats, or all of them because they’re guilty by association? Come on, lets see some intellecual heft, here.

I mean them,

http://www.ldfi.org.uk/

and this them includes most of the top brass of the Libs.

So much so, that you can say “them” includes the whole party other then the odd few who have heard to hold their tongues and others who have been marginalised or expelled when they let go of their tongues.

Look mike, Israel this time Israel has killed people who matter. Not brown Palestinians, whose lives are worthless than those of cockroaches and rats. they have attacked a ship that carries white Christians on international waters.

It also carried whites from the UK who may well have been the casualties.

And what have we heard from the coalition government or the Libs who form a part of it?

They take their orders from Israel, not the electorate.

OK Arsalan… I took the bait and went to the LDFI website…. show me the membership list of ‘most of the top brass’… I saw Alan Beith and a few non entities … and a picture of a uncomfortable looking Nick Clegg stood near an LDFI stall at a conference… hardly overwhelming evidence. Where do we find the membership list ?

Mark Golding, your addled conspiracy-nut head had to bring up the USS Liberty, didn’t it?

This is a serious issue. Save your conspiracy theory bullshit.

So, the guys who rushed into a war against Iraq because of the conspiracies of a taxi driver are now “clarifying” laws that existed before they were all born.

BBC is now repeating an Israeli official or a hooligan who repeats that the civilians wanted to be attacked. Where did I hear that one before?

the reason for the poor uk govt response is that the israeli lobby has undue influence on UK as much as US politics….They can killl whom they choose when they choose and the UK will look to THE LOBBY for how to respond,..

the reason for the poor uk govt response is that the israeli lobby has undue influence on UK as much as US politics….They can killl whom they choose when they choose and the UK will look to THE LOBBY for how to respond,..

the reason for the poor uk govt response is that the israeli lobby has undue influence on UK as much as US politics….They can killl whom they choose when they choose and the UK will look to THE LOBBY for how to respond,.

My neighbour broke into my house last night, he raped my wife and took all my goods away. I’m going to wait until the police investigation is over before I decide how I feel about it.

The police told me that my neighbour has chosen to ignore the law regarding burglary, rape and theft and therefore can not do anything. So I guess everything is ok.

@Larry from St. Louis said:

“Mark Golding, your addled conspiracy-nut head had to bring up the USS Liberty, didn’t it?

This is a serious issue. Save your conspiracy theory bullshit.”

USS Liberty is not ‘conspiracy theory bullshit’, it is a matter of historical record. Why do you have a problem with that?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=uss+liberty&x=0&y=0

‘One of the surviving crew of the USS Liberty, decorated Navy veteran Joe Meadors, was with the “Freedom Flotilla” when it was attacked.’

http://www.uss-liberty.com/2010/06/01/getting-away-with-murder/

Who said lightening doesn’t strike twice?

1. Not all writers are rich, but Craig is rich.

2. I am accessing the internet for free, when I have the chance.

3. The difference between national law and international law is this: national law can be enforced by government, international law cannot; international law can be disgarded at any time by a sovereign country declining to accept it; in democracies, national law has some moral legitimacy, but international law doesn’t.

4. I am not an Israeli apologist, but I have come to expect nothing but abuse from rich, privileged wankers whenever I offer an opinion that differs from the current PC view.

5. Craig, you are mega-rich in any sensible view of the world. Please send me an e-copy of your “Murder in Samarkand”. You know it’s the right thing to do.

This argument over ‘optional’ partaking of international law is a red herring.

Any country that is a member of the UN has to enforce the UN charter by law, and when there is a conflict with domestic laws, superceding those laws.

Israel is a member of the UN therefore it is obligated under the UN charter of human rights, UN resolutions and much much more.

Those promoting Israeli exceptionalism in this matter are deluded or lying through their teeth.

Israel is the number one criminal state on this planet, more so than North Korea or Iran. South Africa was better behaved than those evil buggers.

‘South Africa was better behaved than those evil buggers’

Obviously I meant Apartheid South Africa, another Zionist basket case of a country.

Barking Mad, that is an incredibly sane point.

If your LibDems are like our LibDems over here they’re a bunch of spineless bootlickers and equivocators.