Conspiracy theories are for losers I guess.

For me, this flotilla was a civil rights movement, similar to Sharpsville or Bloody Sunday or riding buses in Alabama, or Ghandi attempting to make salt on the shores of India. In each case protesters knowingly put themselves at risk for the sake of civil rights.

So far I haven’t seen journos making this point, but rather than moan about it let me simply ask: has anyone seen a well written article making these kinds of analogies?

Appreciate any good links you can find – w

Easy to explain, Craig… money.

willyrobinson

what conspiracy theory?

I have seeb quite a few comparisons to Sharpeville on the net. I agree it is a Sharpeville moment. There is also an excellent analogy between apartheid’s bantustan policy and the laughably misnamed two state solution.

Conspiracy theories are meant to bring ridicule, as for Craig’s question, who owns not just Reuters but the controls the whole mainstream media, hollywood included and who founded Israel? who controls the wealth of the planet?

we will now see total gun control in the uk, dunblane did the same except Bliar put a hundred year secrecy on that one. google Hollie Greig for the cracks appearing in Blairs nemesis, never mind Maddie

It certainly feels odd to me the way the people involved are regularly described as “activists.” It has a somewhat negative connotation. I am not sure what word I would use instead but certainly not that one.

Boarding a ship running a legitimate and declared blockade of a declared belligerent nation is LEGAL.

Shooting back at people trying to kill you is LEGAL.

No amount of posturing and lying about ‘illegal’ this and ‘illegal’ that, and ‘murder’ this and ‘murder’ that, from the usual crowd of Judeophobic numbskulls, is going to change that.

The majority of visitors to here probably wouldn’t notice it, but having left a city bombarded by its own government with my parents pushing us all in a wheel barrow to escape the wanton slaughter. I know when I see a totalitarian regime.

Israel and its supporters are simply predators as Ehud Barak made it clear:

Barak: In the Middle East, there is no mercy for the weak

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/barak-in-the-middle-east-there-is-no-mercy-for-the-weak-1.293751

Why the Uber Alles can’t see it now is because they are enjoying the privileges of the system they have adopted at the expense of everybody/everything due to a psychotically induced perception of superiority.

If Uber Alles are rewarded with high ranking officialdoms, economic advancement as those now here in the EU and USA. Why would they let go of it?

My solution to fight predators is to have a strong judicial institution which openly scrutinises the actions of government officials to stop them from carrying water for others except UK tax payers. There should be no aspirations in personal gains before country in UK government, otherwise this country will be heading to become another Zimbabwe.

I thought ‘activists’ only had a negative connotation in the US. All my friends would wear that term as a badge of honour. Is activist a dirty word in other parts of the world now?

John,

If Israel is a declared belligerent, why does it continually make protests about Hamas rockets?

Tony Blair and the ‘Politics of Condemnation’:

http://www.afghancentral.blogspot.com

@John – no-one wins ideological arguments by shouting

It is interesting to have some Israel supporters here, since in theory we can have a conversation to each try to understand the other. Demonisation of either side – as tempting as it is for all of us – doesn’t offer solutions, just frustration. However my experience with one or two people here who are severely critical of the generally pro-Palestinian position is that they appear to be here to throw around insults and cause disruption. I tend to ignore those people, to avoid significantly distracting the flow of the comments threads.

But those people are I am sure a minority – and if you want to have a conversation about this, I am happy to.

The people on the MM were unarmed, unless you count common boat equipment (such as an axe) as being “armed” against highly trained commandos holding firearms. The boat had already been searched for weapons by the Turkish authorities. All on board were humanitarians, seeking to highlight the destructive effects of the blockade Israel is imposing on Gaza.

You appear to trivialise the issue of legality, but if we don’t have law as a mechanism for agreement upon mutually acceptable behaviour, then what shall constrain us from greed? In terms of international law, the wall is illegal, the annexation of Palestine is illegal, the blockade is illegal, and war crimes have been carried out against civilians in a variety of Israeli military incursions. At the UN, resolutions usually go against Israel by a factor of 150-1, with the usual abstention from the US, or sometimes a small state that can be “persuaded” to abstain.

I hope we have agreement that criticism of Israeli policy or the culture of discrimination +some+ Israelis hold against the Palestinian people is not the same thing as anti-semitism. But, anti-Jewish racism does exist, and when Jewish people are collectively insulted, it does need to be challenged.

We should remember of course that Israeli discourse on the Palestinian question (one state? two state? permanent conflict?) is much more open in Israel than it is in the US, or, I wonder, the UK too. There are also good people in Israel in left/progressive blocs or humanitarian organisations who are horrified about what their country is doing to another, and the destruction they are visiting on another people.

I don’t at all hate Jews, given that they are not a monolithic bloc. Jewish people in Israel deserve to live in peace and security. But, their government is locked in a cycle of financial dependence on military conflict, and it is not helped that there are extremists on both sides who favour killing people for essentially religious reasons.

Jon,

I agree with pretty well all of that, but would only add that immigration from the ex-communist bloc has irreversibly tilted the political balance in Israel towards virulent and violent extremism. I would disagree that genuinely liberal Jews are stronger now in Israel than in the US.

@Craig

Sorry if I was projecting a bit. I love this blog for finding interesting and important stories that often pass me by in my cursory review of the media.

I have seen some civil rights analogies in pro-palistinian sites and blogs – preaching to the converted as it were – but little in the big media.

Again, all links appreciated – w

@CheebaCow – I am an activist. I like the word, and I reclaim it. But I agree that there is something about the word that is muttered about, or sneered at.

For the MSM, their ideological framework is about “democracy” i.e. all solutions come from the ballot box and the power of the market. And for members of the public, who in general are too busy to improve the world – the idea that someone wants to fix the world is discomfiting for people who think they should do something too, but won’t spare the time for it.

‘Jews’

There are no ‘Jews’ it is a man made term, like so many other man made terms. What we have is human beings who live on a planet spinning in space. We all live in somekind of abstract reality. That is the problem.

I can think of one exception – Andrew Sullivan.

But that’s all. The correlation seems pretty darn strong.

I’m far from being a fan but Johann Hari bigged up the 2003 invasion and has just written this over at the Independent…

“Everyone now knows the Israeli navy committed a machine-gun massacre on a ship in international waters that was carrying humanitarian aid for the blockaded people of Gaza, who Israeli officials joke they have “put on a diet”. The boat was armed with Holocaust survivors, Nobel Peace Laureates, food, medicine, cement to rebuild bombed-out homes, and a couple of metal bars that were grabbed at when armed gunmen illegally boarded the boat.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-when-hands-across-the-sea-are-tied-1990801.html

It is Israel and its lobby.

The only nation that gained from the Iraq invasion was Israel.

So the Zionist Lobby supported it. They also Support what ever Israel does unconditionally.

You will also see other correlations.

You will see a correlation between the politicians and media that attack Islam and the ones that support the invasion of Iraq and what ever Israel does.

You will see a correlation between the politicians who want to ban the Hijab and the ones that support this and ever other action of Israel, as well as actions to against Muslim nations such as the invasion of Iraq.

It is all the same people, and the agenda is “If it is good for Israel, it is good”.

Arsalan:

I disagree that Israel benefited from the Iraq invasion. I don’t doubt that Israel wanted the invasion, however I believe the rise of the Shi’ia has benefited Iran and Hezbollah most of all. I think that Iran is increasingly a regional power is one of the reasons why Israel is lashing out so irrationally now.

StefZ

I didn’t recall Hari as an Iraq war supporter. Are you sure?

Given its relative size, and its near fascist regime, it is quite staggering the hold Israel has over US politics and the media. They have succeeded in suppressing the vicious nature of their colonialism, at the same time influencing US Foreign Policy to an alarming degree – as you can see in their attempts to bring war to Iran. I don’t believe Obama agrees with them for a second, or indeed doesn’t despise them, but even a President is hemmed in by the potential firestorm they will provoke if he cuts their aid, supports the Palestinians or any other humane policy. The political capital he would have to expend to combat these fifth columnists would make his presidency unmanageable. He knows it, they know it.

This is the kind of stranglehold which makes it so difficult to get any justice for Palestine. In the UK it may not be so rabid, but it is still the case. Most of the commentators and interviewers have been pathetic in their lack of knowledge, or sheer inability to challenge the relentless torrent of lies and manufactured propaganda we have endured this week. The Israelis have poured a vast amount of time and money into propaganda, as well as ensuring the activists were unable to tell their story until now. Our journalists are mainly cowed by their own timidity, and unwillingness to acknowledge how they are being played for suckers. They are an open goal for Israel, whose demonstrably false and hysterical stories are privileged and given an unquestioned authority which is laughable in the light of their mendacity.

It will take a huge cultural shift to get interviewers to treat Israel with the suspicion and scepticism it deserves – very few asked the blindingly obvious questions they would have asked had it been a Hamas video or press release. However, it is slowly changing as people realise how far-fetched the absurd Israeli narrative is – ‘they forced us to kill them in the dead of night’; ‘wheelchairs can be used for terrorist acts, as well as pencils, jam, notebooks etc.’

Nobody thought protests and sanctions would ever change S Africa – yet they proved a crucial part of the overall demise of that regime. You have to hope that the same will happen to Israel. Certainly, apartheid almost seems benign in comparison to Israeli occupation and siege.

This very short excerpt courtesy of The History Channel may be of interest…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXqj9epGEas

Haven’t virtually all the traditional media (newspapers, magazines, radio, TV) been in favour of both?

“After three years, after 150,000 dead, why I was wrong about Iraq”

Johann Hari, 2006

http://www.johannhari.com/2006/03/18/after-three-years-after-dead-why-i-was-wrong-about-iraq

“Just how precise a correlation is there between media supporters of the illegal invasion of Iraq, and media supporters of the illegal attack on the Gaza convoy?”

i dont know why this is a surprise, just as it wasnt a surprise that the israelis were involved in talks between blair and bush (crawford) pre iraq war.

as david frum (he of axis of evil speech writer and leading neo con) has stated one can only be a neo conservative if one is 100% pro zionist.

as you must have realised by now all of our leaders are subscribers to neo conservatism as are many other parliamentarians.

similarly the media & affiliates who also prop up our politicians and in return our politicians who similarly prop up some in the media.

since 2001 nothing has changed the media is still pursuing the neo con agenda as are our politicians , regime change here and in the usa has not meant policy change.

why should this be the case – power and money – blair today is a very rich man and who can touch cheney ?

“Now how do you explain this?”

Anti muslim, pro “westerner” bigotry suffices.

“No amount of posturing and lying about ‘illegal’ this and ‘illegal’ that, and ‘murder’ this and ‘murder’ that, from the usual crowd of Judeophobic numbskulls, is going to change that.”

since when was this a jewish issue? surely it is about israel and its zionist regime.

does israeli government reflect or embody the morality and ethics of judaism. was its actions actually anything to do with judaism? id say not.

israel acted because it wanted to defend the very illegal blockade and continue the humanitarian catastrophe (united nations).

it was under instructions from its paymaster the usa.

once one realises that the usa holds all of the keys to the resolution of the palestinian – israel conflict then one can understand that its not the tail wagging the dog.

Arsalan

What do you mean re. the hijab?

I see it this way:

I haven’t read anything written by politicians and met on-one who want to ban the hijab, if by that you mean the khimar. The problem the West has is with the niqab and burqua. It’s about covering the face and eyes, rather than dressing modestly more generally.

In the West people are just not prepared to accept peoples faces being hidden in public transactions, for security as much as as equality reasons, and also see this as being about regarding women as second class citizens.

Many people also see Islam as requiring the West to make compromises while offering none itself – demanding respect for Islamic tradition but not respecting European customs and norms. For us all to move forward towards more harmony, the Islamic world has to be prepared to make some accomodations to reflect modern society, particularly in relation to cultural norms which are not in the Koran but part of later patriarchal custom.

“Given its relative size, and its near fascist regime, it is quite staggering the hold Israel has over US politics and the media.”

its not israel that holds power it is the zionist lobby, and in the majority they are american and christians. these were the core voters that supported bush (40% of his support) .

the fact that the zionists have a strategic hold in the middle east through israel is misunderstood as being israel having control over the usa.

the zionist network has its influences here too with cameron at PMQ’s declaring himself to be a friend of israel , in essence declaring his support for zionism (clegg and any nu labour leader is of the same political strain).

now why would cameron or hague or anyone else want to wear their support for israel as a badge of honor as peace activists are being murdered and 1.5 million palestinians muslims, christians and others of no faith / some faith are being held in one open concentration camp at near starvation levels?

israel or zionism?

The BBC website is doing a fine job of pretending to report this issue while gradually burying it.

Some time ago I read an article outlining how well the Israeli press office ran, they delivered journalists stories ready packaged, and gave them refreshments too. Journalists being up against deadlines and perhaps not overly eager to go out to where the shooting is file these stories.

“In the West people are just not prepared to accept peoples faces being hidden in public transactions,”

has never stopped them from using the phone or computer nor has it prevented them from making decisions based on reports broadcast from radios.

“for security as much as”

there is no security issue at al, in the mid east and elsewhere the problem is easily resolved by having another female doing the security check. quick easy and a simple solution.

” as equality reasons,”

this is nonsensical we have inequality and it has nothing at all to do with covering one face,or being able to walk the streets practically naked.

“and also see this as being about regarding women as second class citizens.”

again this is just nonsensical womena re viewed as second class citizens across the planet across variety of communities and faiths it has little to do with covering the face.

“Many people also see Islam as requiring the West to make compromises while offering none itself”

but how valid are these perceptions, i mean what compromising have you had to do?

” – demanding respect for Islamic tradition but not respecting European customs and norms.”

which european custom or norms are not being respected?

“For us all to move forward towards more harmony, the Islamic world has to be prepared to make some accomodations to reflect modern society,”

what accomodations are you wanting. what is a modern society, one that attacks peace flotillas? one that lies and is responsible for 1 million deaths ? maybe its the 200 000 teenage pregnancies or the uncontrollable binge drinking?

” particularly in relation to cultural norms which are not in the Koran but part of later patriarchal custom.”

there is no cultural norm for any society unless it is living in a bubble, cultures evolve are influenced from the outside as well as from withing.

if you really want to maintain the cultural norms then demand a stop to globalistation, technology such as the internet , mobiles and being able to travel abroad. deny any contact with any other nation or peoples.

our cultural norms are very different from thos of 40 years, 30 years even 5 years ago .

what you are demanding is impossible regardless of face covering or not.

oh and btw research indicates that people make better observations as to whether one is lying or not through ones ears not eyes or body posture.

@John D. Monkey

Interesting observation.

“In the West people are just not prepared to accept peoples faces being hidden in public transactions, for security as much as as equality reasons,……..”

Middle Eastern countries must have the same security problems with the niqab and the burqua, so how do they cope with it. Can western culture learn something about security that we’re not asking the Middle East about?

“Some time ago I read an article outlining how well the Israeli press office ran, they delivered journalists stories ready packaged, and gave them refreshments too. Journalists being up against deadlines and perhaps not overly eager to go out to where the shooting is file these stories.”

its not just the israeli pr offices, govt and other vested interests utilise the same methods.

when politicians lie it is upto the journos to define that lie . they tend not to. they are paid to follow their employers politics.

for the bbc its employer is the government/state, for the times or sky its murdoch.

why would you or anyone actually believe a report from a complete stranger who has a vested interest due to the organisation he/she works for?

Jeez, Sir…everyone (idea instigators, pundits, opinion makers, etc.) involved seems, was/is of the Druid/zionist faith. Their non confessional flunkies were/are motivated by greed, racism and rapture mania.

What is it that breaks the law so readily and regularly and ignores all requests to desist?

The answer is: A lifelong and unrehabilitated criminal.

When you understand that Israel is not a state in any normal sense, you can begin to see it for what it is.

Israel is quite simply a criminal enterprise, run by gangsters.

Now you know what to expect, you won’t be disappointed.

“Middle Eastern countries must have the same security problems with the niqab and the burqua, so how do they cope with it. Can western culture learn something about security that we’re not asking the Middle East about?”

as stated earlier .. they have women employees or security to check upon other women with face coverings etc.

its not that much of an issue unless one is trying to sell a political line which is more about power and western supremacist values

Wendy wrote:

‘The BBC website is doing a fine job of pretending to report this issue while gradually burying it.’

Did you see their story claiming the Israeli commandos were armed with paintball guns?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm

I guess the paint had a high lead content.

Would seem that Goldstone is unhappy that this documentary buried by the French government was not on his radar when they did the investigation into the attacks of 2009 by israel.

http://www.gaza-strophe.com/

regards

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10222035.stm

“Ms Fink also said that she believed that some supporters of the English Defence League were also at the protest.

Organisers of the pro-Israel protest said they had made it clear that the EDL, who have been accused of Islamophobia, were not welcome but that a separate space had been reserved for them.”(!!!)

The English Defence League, the extreme right-wing anti-Islamic group, has launched a “Jewish division”, encouraging members of the community to “lead the counter-Jihad fight in England”.

It has signed up hundreds of followers on Facebook since the launch last week. Supporters include an ex-Community Security Trust volunteer who claims “a lot of Jewish guys want to get stuck in”

An Associated Press writer, Tia Goldenberg, was aboard the Israeli warship INS Kidon at the time.

I believe that ‘kidon’ means ‘dagger’ etc, and the Israeli State Security assassination group is known as the Kidon Unit.

If that is the case, it seems that someone, somewhere has a malicious sense of humour.

@Wendy

“they have women employees or security to check upon other women with face coverings etc.”

Gee, that simple. It would make a good business case for starting a woman only ‘security’ company.

I really don’t see what’s wrong with a woman covering her face if she wants to, I’m quite sure a lot of people would wish I would cover mine when I’m walking along the road!

The recent surge in Shia killings in Iraq are carried out by Baath agents who are controlled (and infiltrated) by about 30 percent US special agents (civilian or military). They are organised into cells and have accounted for the deaths of 375 Shia Muslims in the last two months.

Violence is increasing as the deadline looms for American partial withdrawal from Iraq.

The US agents in Iraq are tasked with targeting and connecting certain ‘terrorists’ with al-Qaeda. A plan exists to build the the personality of the new leader of al Qaeda in Iraq (Abu Suleiman) as harsh and extreme and works to stir sectarian war just like his predecessor Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Suleiman is of Arab origin, Egyptian born and has lived in Syria (to implicate Syria as well).

To propel the al-Qaeda legend a ‘ghost writer’ is used to prepare speeches for the media. This State Ghost is one of the Saudi intelligence agents who cooperate intimately with the U.S. and Israeli intelligence. This fiction contains (in a similar fashion to the dodgy dossier) sermons and governance, speeches and conversations from obsolete books, thesis and State speeches. This somewhat delusional thinking aspires to give credibility to the announcements.

Examining the recent death of Abu al-Yazid Masri, claimed to be the third man in al Qaeda, I would like you to watch this video, which contains an interview with Ahmed Zaidan from Al-Jazeera with the Egyptian in the apparent “jungles of Afghanistan.” Listened to him, contemplate and notice the environment around him. Tell me what you think of anything that might draw attention.

Broadcast on Al-Jazeera 21st June 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJHDhI5zaD8

Why not try putting it in terms of the opponents of the war against Iraq, and the opponents of the Israeli arrest of the Mavi Marmara.

Many of the opponents of the war saw Saddam Hussein as the best available candidate to destroy the State of Israel. Now that he is dead and his regime no more, that mantle has passed to Iran, Syria and Hamas.

@Wendy,

The ex-CST member is Mark Steel who according to his facebook page is a fan of Ann Summers parties. You should expect lots of frustration from a wage slave who convinces himself that he could make money from being tarty.

David Aaronovitch was gung ho for the Iraq war, but seems much more muted in support of of the recent Israeli terrorism, from the little I’ve seen from him anyway.

Aaronovitch claims to be a lover much more of Turkey than Israel.

Mad Mel was her usual Israeli propagandist self. Are she and Mark Regev related?

Someone else wrote that the attack on the Turks was to sow confusion in Turkish politics and a rift between Turkish politicians and their military. The Turkish military are very pro-Israel whilst the Islamic party currently running Turkey are much much less so. The Turks are also currently trying to set up a regional power between themselves, Iran and Syria. Israel is a bit pissed off, so it just murdered some people as it always does.

“If Israel is a declared belligerent, why does it continually make protests about Hamas rockets?”

It’s called ‘propaganda war’.

Nobody will teach me about ‘demonisation’. The Jews have been demonised more than any nation in history, and still are, under the laughable figleaf of ‘anti-Zionism’.

Try a serious argument.

I am not ‘trivialising’ legality. That’s nonsense. On the contrary: the one trivialising it is Murray, by shooting from the hip and inventing absurd ‘illegalities’ where none exist. It’s simply one strand in the non-stop demonisation of Israel, which is the only UN member continuously accused of being an illegal state per se, by people who simply don’t like Jews very much and obssess about them non-stop. How many people shout about the illegal behaviour of Sudan in Darfur, China in Tibet, etc etc etc? No, it’s always Jews this and Jews that. Since destroying Israel by force is proving more difficult than its fantasist enemies have imagined, they are resorting to lies about its supposed ‘illegal’ behaviour. This includes shameless distortions of what SC resolutions say (not that the UN has a shred of moral or legal authority left, if it ever had one), and now shameless distortions of what maritime law and the laws of war say. Claiming, e.g., that war needs to be declared in order to exist is hysterical nonsense.

PS. Strike the first bit. Israel protests about the rockets because they DELIBERATELY TARGET CIVILIANS. That’s their entire raison d’etre. That’s supposed to be illegal, eh, Murray?

“Did you see their story claiming the Israeli commandos were armed with paintball guns?”

Err, they were. They only starting shooting after being attacked with knives and steel rods (despite the BBC’s shameless lie that they came down the ropes firing machine-guns).

“which european custom or norms are not being respected?”

Try religious freedom. In some parts of Britain, Christian preachers are physically threatened and attacked, and the ‘auxiliaries’ threaten THEM with arrest for breaching the peace.

Calling it ‘peace flotilla’ is like calling Saddam a ‘humanitarian’. There were quite a few convicted terrorists on board (incl. one well-known ‘archbishop’), and they had an arsenal of weapons – and had declared quite openly before sailing that they are looking forward to a confrontation.

“How precise a correlation is there between media supporters of the illegal invasion of Iraq, and media supporters of the illegal attack on the Gaza convoy? How do you explain this? Discuss.

This looks like a history exam question!

“Discuss” is a good word because, for example, the Tories appear to have been in favour of the Iraq war, but Cameron condemned the operation against the flotilla.

I would say myself that both the Iraq war and the operation against the flotilla were badly planned, suggesting a gung-ho, right-wing government, whether in Washington a few years ago or in Israel now. That may be the common factor.

Israel has been the biggest ethnic cleanser over the past 60 years.

That’s criminal behaviour and Israel is rightly condemned by all decent people.

That Israel continues its crimes up to the present day shows its total contempt for any decent moral behaviour.

Anyway, Israel is so corrupt politically, morally, intellectually, demographically and every other way that it will eventually collapse under the weight of its own internal contradictions.

Ben Gurion pointed out a long time ago that if Israel did not retreat to its pre 1967 borders, the demographic time bomb would destroy the Zionist project from within.

I met a traveler from an antique land

Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone

Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,

Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;

And on the pedestal these words appear:

“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:

Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.

@John,

“I am not ‘trivialising’ legality. That’s nonsense. On the contrary: the one trivialising it is Murray, by shooting from the hip and inventing absurd ‘illegalities’ where none exist.”

OK John, I’m prepared to be convinced by your arguments, what are your qualifications? Craig’s seem pretty extensive, I assume yours are more so.

@John,

“How many people shout about the illegal behaviour of Sudan in Darfur, China in Tibet, etc etc etc?”

We hear a reasonable amount about Darfur and Tibet in Britain, certainly when there is a major event such as the ones Israel perpetrates on a fairly regular basis. The problem is, with all the noise coming from the Middle East in general its difficult for the smaller voices to be heard.

Rightly or wrongly, the Israeli/Palestinian situation has, for the last few generations at least, fuelled the sense of hatred and bitterness between Arab nations and Israel. It’s nothing to do with being Jewish or Muslim otherwise why weren’t Jews targeted in 9/11 or 7/7, they weren’t but as usual guys like you perpetually dredge up religion and a mythical global hatred of Jews as the reason for condemning Israel over its appalling behaviour, along with the US’s, and to a lesser extent, Great Britain’s, complicity in the whole situation.

Try to get a grip on reality and begin to understand that you are suffering a persecution complex with your constant reference to people hating Jews, no one hates the Jews, they just hate violence and at the moment Israel, which happens to be populated by Jews, is the globes worst offender. If the tables were turned and it was the Palestinians with all the weaponry, money and US backing you could then, possibly, with some good reason, bleat about the eternal fate of the Jewish nation but until then you are simply boring everyone.

“Strike the first bit. Israel protests about the rockets because they DELIBERATELY TARGET CIVILIANS.”

Can you explain the words in BLOCK CAPITALS? Hamas uses crude misilies with no guiding system. How then can they ‘deliberately target’ anyone?

Michael Petek said: “Many of the opponents of the war saw Saddam Hussein as the best available candidate to destroy the State of Israel.”

What a ridiculous statement. Everyone knew Saddam was no threat to anyone but his own people. It’s also disgusting that you misrepresent the motives of good people who merely wanted to prevent the inevitable humanitarian disaster that was/is the Iraq war.

“Hamas uses crude misilies with no guiding system. How then can they ‘deliberately target’ anyone?”

Oh sure, and those V-1s and V-2s never harmed a soul in Britain.

Read my statement again and you’ll find it’s not so ridiculous.

At every demonstration against the war there were banners which said ‘Stop the War’, ‘Not in My Name’ and ‘Hands off Iraq’ alongside others which said ‘Freedom for Palestine’.

What the hell has the case of Iraq got to do with the case of Palestine?

Michael Petek -

“Many of the opponents of the war saw Saddam Hussein as the best available candidate to destroy the State of Israel

[cries of 'ridiculous']

Read my statement again and you’ll find it’s not so ridiculous. At every demonstration against the war there were banners which said ‘Stop the War’, ‘Not in My Name’ and ‘Hands off Iraq’ alongside others which said ‘Freedom for Palestine’.

”

Do you really think that the second statement is proof of the first ? Honestly ?

Michael Petek:

Ahh so you think Freedom for Palestine = I want Saddam to destroy the state of Israel? Ridiculous. Come back when you can find someone who actually made the case that Saddam should not be overthrown so that he could destroy Israel.

You obviously haven’t seen or been to many protest. One of the most common criticisms of ‘left wing’ protests is that they attract many people with unrelated causes to protest at the same time.

Showing your ignorance Larry. The V1 had autopilot, gyro compass, vane anemometer, magnetic compass and radio bearing calculations.

My mother, an ARP warden, escapes death from a ‘doodlebug’ near Crystal Palace by wrapping herself in a duvet.

Try imagining being targeted by rockets and cruise type missiles Larry – then you will firstly understand the resilience of the British and then the fear and terror felt by Baghdad children when America reigned cluster bombs and cruise missiles at her while the kids were eating breakfast on the day in March when the flames came out the skies and cooked small babies in their cots and cribs on a lie! Arse ‘ole.

“Oh sure, and those V-1s and V-2s never harmed a soul in Britain”

still, that didn’t stop the US government from employing the guys who built them with slave labour eh Larry?

John D,

Yes those are exactly the lines they use. And the ones using them are the same ones that support the Iraq war and whatever Israel does.

And just like the defences they make for whatever Israel does and the never ending war on Islam. These attacks/bans on Hijab are just as silly.

They don’t make the argument because of Hijab, because they have no problems with sikhs covering their hair with turbans of Jewish women covering theirs with wigs, or even Christian nuns covering theirs in exactly the same way as Most Muslims. The issue is about slaughter and its justifications.

And the way afghan women dress was used as a justification for the invasion and the slaughter. And I did hear the Israeli spokesman mention Hijab as one of his justifications for killing the people on that boat.

The reason why the Zionists attack hijab is, “Yes we kill Muslims, there is nothing wrong with that because they are evil, the proof that they are evil is the fact that they make women cover, and women covering themselves is evil”

So they demonise the way Muslim women dress so people like you wont see anything wrong in their soldiers beating the shit out of covered women on that boat because you have been programed to think muslim women dress that way as some sort of takeover attempt, or to impose their ways on you. And you will not have a problem with Israel killing their husbands, because you feel they are oppressors because they have made their women cover.

One need only consider the relative strengths of the Israeli and Palestinian communities. For example, how ships are there in the Palestinian navy? how many planes in the Palestinian airforce? how many tanks and mobile artillery and missile pieces do the Palestinian army have? Well, golly gee whillickers, I believe the answer to all those questions is none, zip, nada.

There is no equivalence between Israel and the Palestinians, and never has been. Israel has its boot firmly planted on the collective neck of the Palestinians and whenever the Pals or their sympathisers attempt to relieve this intolerable torment, the Israeli response is to scream – “Stop threatening me! Away with your boats of hate! Oh dear God, how much longer must we be the victims of the world?” – while Washington slips them another few billion…

“still, that didn’t stop the US government from employing the guys who built them with slave labour eh Larry?”

oh wow looks like someone watched a documentary

congratulations cupcake

“One need only consider the relative strengths of the Israeli and Palestinian communities”

Operation ‘Cast Lead’ – 1400 dead palestinians vs. 13 dead Israelis

Operation ‘Whatever they called that attack on those ships’ – 9 dead ‘brutal’ activists vs. 0 dead Israelis

actually, we don’t know if it’s 9 dead or more as, days after the killings, the Israelis and their pals are still managing the information flow quite effectively

Israel will do whatever it wants because it can do whatever it wants.

The cry of antisemitism is all the justification they need for all past, present and future crimes.

“oh wow looks like someone watched a documentary”

actually, I picked up on this during a visit to Huntsville where I was somewhat dismayed to find how well the Nazis who tried to flatten my home town with some genuinely lethal rocketry were treated

and if being a ‘cupcake’ means I’m on a different team to the likes yourself that sits very well with me

You had to go to Huntsville to find out that von Braun was once a member of the Nazi Party?

Now go watch a documentary about the Cold War. Or read a book about the enslavement of Eastern Europe by the Russians following WWII.

Was the U.S. supposed to not employ von Braun and his team?

Yes-I can vouch for Johann Hari’s support for the Iraq war-I’m sure I read him on it way back. To answer your point Craig, I would put the correlation at around 100%. And both have in common the large number of possible/probable Shills who appear during any online discussion.

John,

I find your remarks at 2:42 PM offensive. I am one of the people criticising the state called Israel – criticising, not demonising, thank you. I went to school near Gants Hill, over a fifth of my school were Jewish. I counted many as friends, and assume that I would still be on good terms with them were I to meet them again now. I have deep respect for many Jewish people, including some of the teachers at that school.

You do Jewish people a disservice when you try to equate criticism of Israel with hatred of Jews; many Jews and many Israeli citizens are critical of Israel, and rightly so.

Then you wrote “How many people shout about the illegal behaviour of Sudan in Darfur, China in Tibet, etc etc etc? No, it’s always Jews this and Jews that.”

This again is offensive, criticising Israel is not “Jews this and Jews that”. It is also simply wrong. When Avaaz organised a petition in support of the Dalai Lama, they collected over 1.5 million signatures, ten times the number signing the Avaaz petition for withdrawl of troops from Iraq.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/report_back_2/

You don’t read too good do you Larry? What I found in Hunstsville was how well Nazis were rehabiliated.

And the reason why I mentioned this was because you introduced the subject of German rocketry in a half-arsed attempt to conflate V weapons with the relatively inefective weapons used by some Palestinians. The use of which I do not condone for a second

If you’re looking for parallels which might resonate with British readers the IRA bombing campaign on the British mainland would be more appropriate. Quite a few people died

On the other hand, the British government did not respond by slaughtering thousands of Irish nationals. As I recall, the reasoning was that wouldn’t have solved anything

There again the British government wasn’t clearing Ireland for colonisation. Not that century anyway

Look StefZ, someone above brought up the idea that the rockets were meaningless because they had no “guiding system.” So of course I had to bring up the buzz bombs. And then you had to bring up von Braun moving to America, because you’re just another puny pissant Brit who’s turned his pathetic jealousy of America into constant and reflexive anti-Americanism.

“the Nazis who tried to flatten my home town” Just pathetic. You weren’t there.

And then you bring up Ireland. Snore. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZ

“John” is, in fact, our very own “Loony from St. Larry”. Pay no attention to the trolls.

America is a wonderful country and I’ve been fortunate to spend a lot of time there and I, and plenty of other British people, are no more critical of the American state than our own

There are some interesting parallels between, on the one hand, USIsrael and the people who have created this mechanism for global hegemony, and on the other hand, UK/South Africa and the Rhodes Milner group of a century ago, which created its own mechanism for global hegemony. It is also interesting to consider whether the two mechanisms are not merely stages in the development of the same phenomenon.

Today, America’s Neocons, who as noted by David Frum are necessarily Zionists, seek American global hegemony. At the beginning of the last century, the Rhodes-Milner group sought British global hegemony, although as the century advanced, leaders of the group, including Lord Milner, recognized that America would likely take over leadership of the project.

The Rhodes-Milner British imperialists saw control of South Africa, including Rhodesia, Kenya, Tanganyika and Uganda as a key objective in the development of their project.

The American Neocon-Zionists see control of the middle-east and central Asia as a key objective in the development of their project.

The British imperialists instigated a series of wars in South Africa, culminating in the Boer war, to further their project.

The American Neocon-Zionists have instigated a series of wars, culminating in what we cannot yet be sure, to further their aims in the ME and Central Asia.

The Boer War demonstrated to the world that the greatest power on Earth could be held up for years by 40,000 Dutch farmers armed with high quality German rifles. The Germans, in particular, took note.

America’s current imperialistic wars demonstrate to the world that the greatest power on Earth can be held up for many years by some of the poorest peasants in the world armed with IED’s. China, one supposes, has taken note.

The British imperialists were directed initially by a small, extremely well-funded (the Rhodes Trust and other sources) group (Cecil Rhodes “secret society”) with important political allies, including the British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain.

The central group of British imperialists was assisted by a much larger circle of able individuals or “helpers” who, through the application of influence, were promoted to positions of power. In addition, the group invested heavily in public persuasion. They published journals; they gained control, through ownership, of Britain’s most influential newspaper, The Times; they took effective control of a large part of Britain’s most politically important university, Oxford.

The Neocon-Zionists must surely have their inner circle, and they are in a position to advance the careers of a multitude of “helpers”, they are extremely well financed; they have effective control of most of the news media, entertainments industry and book publishing; and they control America’s chief political university, Harvard.

The British imperialists extended their influence throughout the English-speaking world through the Round Table Groups, publishing ventures and financing propagandists.

Today the Zionists extend their influence throughout the world in many ways, including the internationalization of America’s entertainment industries, global domination of publishing, the financing of think tanks, and of course direct purchase of political loyalty through political action committees, Friends of Israel groups, etc.

Thus, just as the Rhodes-Milner group dictated British Imperial policy during the first half of the last century, so today a Zionist cabal dictates the imperialist policy of the United States and Israel plus many other more or less tributary nations such as the UK and other members of the EU.

This being so, it is largely mistaken to talk in terms of Israel or America or Britain as nations democratically engaged in the imperial project. The nations involved are merely being used. The people may be swept up by the propaganda and thus appear monstrously brutal racists, as seems widely to be the case in Israel and throughout much of America. But the people are mere subjects to be controlled in their thinking and used at will by a Zionist-imperialist elite.

Not every thoughtful person goes along with the project. But to get along in a political career or in journalism and in many other fields, it necessary to go along.

blah blah blah Jews Rhodes Harvard USIsrael Jews Oxford blah blah blah

Laurel and Hardy, Abbott and Costello! All leave cancelled, round-the-clock shifts. Overtime payments… slapstick never sleeps!

Larry,

If you have nothing intelligent to say on the subject, try saying nothing at all.

Alternatively, tell us about yourself. You keep returning here although you have called everyone here “hateful”. So what is it that we fail to understand about you that makes us “hateful” to you?

The reason why Zionists can go about killing people with out remores is they are a racist people who only consider themselves human. Zionists view the rest of humanity as two groups. They either see us as vermin to be exterminated or see us as oxen to be worked.

They see Americans as oxen to be worked, cattle to be milked for every penny. For which the Americans will not get a penny in payment, they will only get the honour of serving Zion.

While all others who do not serve Zion are vermin to be exterminated.

This attitude is no secret, because Zionist state it all the time. So do their supporters in America.

They state it to get Israel to milk more from America, they also state it to America to give Israel more.

But when any of Israels enemies state this well known fact, the Zionists shought and scream, “antisemitism!!!!”

Arsalan,

“The reason why Zionists can go about killing people with out remores is they are a racist people who only consider themselves human.”

What you say may be correct. However, my point was that ordinary people in any nation believe mostly what they are made to believe by a ruling elite that is well equipped to manipulate people’s thinking. Therefore, the challenge is not to tackle racists here or there, but to identify the controlling mechanism and then, um …

Well, anyway, if you don’t tackle the controlling mechanism you will get nowhere.

What did Larry’s latest incarnation say?

China, Russia, Sudan?

Well bitch, China Russia and Sudan do not board charity ships in internation waters to kill people and steal aid to the starving.

Israel does!

And People do attack China, Russia and Sudan when they do bad things, and when that happens, I don’t hear you bastards shout, Anti Chinese, and Russian anti Sudanese.

Israel must end, we must end it.

It is a racist state to its core.

there is no way to reform it, or rediffine it.

It is the pure meaning of racism, through which all racists get the inspiration.

Zionism was the inspiration for what hitler did, not the other way arround.

Hey Larry

Was it Okay for Israel to Kill Those US servicemen on the USS Liberty in international waters? Must be Okay with you? Why don’t you tell what actually happened top the USS liberty?

Don’t worry about the invasion of the forked-tongues. They are just Uber-Zionist letter-writers, deployed across the media spectrum. A re-run, of a re-run, or a re-run: Oliver Hardy strikes again!

the latest TrueLife account of the assault from the Jerusalem Post

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

including this line…

T. said he realized the group they were facing was well-trained and likely ex-military after the commandos threw a number of stun grenades and fired warning shots before rappelling down onto the deck. “They didn’t even flinch,” he said. “Regular people would move.”

…aside from the homage to Full Metal Jacket (‘If he runs he’s VC. If he stands still he’s well disciplined VC’) it’s also noteworhy because it does seem to be a grudging admission that shots may have been fired before the commandos landed on the boat after all

Confirming the unity of USIsreali government, Vice President Biden said:

“Look, you can argue whether Israel should have dropped people onto that ship or not and the – but the truth of the matter is, Israel has a right to know – they’re at war with Hamas – has a right to know whether or not arms are being smuggled in. And up to now, Charlie, what’s happened? They’ve said, “Here you go. You’re in the Mediterranean. This ship ?” if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we’ll get the stuff into Gaza. So what’s the big deal here?”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/jun/02/joe-biden-israel-gaza-flotilla-raid

So there you are, don’t blame Israel. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Zionist-imperialist USIsraeli ruling elite, which controls both the US and Israel.

And note, Craig, on the authority of the Vice-President, the USIsrael is at war with Gaza.

So if the Vice President says so, does that make it so: an indirect declaration of war, it would seem, without the courtesy of a formal note to Hamas?

Sad how manners have deteriorated since Winston Churchill signed a letter declaring war on Japan “Your humble and obedient servant”, saying, “if you are about to kill a man, it does no harm to be polite.”

“So if the Vice President says so, does that make it so: an indirect declaration of war, ”

No.

Oh, thanks Larry. But I was hoping for an informed opinion.

Read the Constitution and do a word search for “Vice President.”

I’m a lawyer, but it doesn’t take a lawyer to figure this one out.

There are several things going on.

First is the “Mad Dog” identity policy. Israel believes that people stay away from “Mad Dogs” so if they portray themselves that way, they will be left alone.

Second, both Israel and Washington consider themselves way above the law. What they want to do supersedes any law – because they are the law – like Wyatt Earp.

Third. What are we talking about when we label countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, N. Korea, Iran as rogue states? What Israel does on a regular basis qualifies it to be even further up the list than N. Korea or Saddam Hussein. When the US invaded Iraq it was an illegal act far worse than anything Saddam Hussein ever achieved against Iran or Kuwait.

The inevitable outcome of all the above is that no-one respects either Israel and the USA any more – and why should they? They lie, they kill, they break the law, whenever and however it suits them. All they have left now is that they are each other’s best friends, one small mad dog, and one much larger one.

Both these Mad Dogs have enough nuclear weapons to finish us all off, and enough attitude to finish themselves off. Let us hope the latter arrives before the former.

“When the US invaded Iraq it was an illegal act far worse than anything Saddam Hussein ever achieved against Iran or Kuwait.”

See, that’s the kind of stupid thinking that one finds on Craig Murray’s blog. It’s not enough to vehemently disagree with the U.S. intervention in Iraq – which would be an arguable position. But you have to go further than that, straight into nut job territory, and define the Iraq intervention as even worse than the aggressive wars launched by Hussein.

Was Iraq’s annexation of Kuwait justified in any way? Did it prevent an inevitable war? What U.N. resolutions had Kuwait broken?

“When the US invaded Iraq it was an illegal act far worse than anything Saddam Hussein ever achieved against Iran or Kuwait”

Yes, and on a vastly greater scale than Israel’s relief convoy murders.

“All [Israel and the US]… have left now is that they are each other’s best friends, one small mad dog, and one much larger one.”

This is not, I believe, the nature of the relationship. Both Israel and the US are dominated by the same Zionist imperialist ruling elite.

It is inconceivable that Israel would commit an act of murder, or an act of war or a false flag attack on the US or any other state unless the action was consistent with USIsrael policy.

Why else would President Johnson have covered Israel’s complicity in the sinking of the Liberty?

Why else would Israel honor the surviving perpetrators of the Lavon Affair, an Israeli terrorist atrocity directed at the United States, after President Bush announced that you are either with us or you are with the terrorists?

Why else would the US Vice-President today justify Israel’s latest outrage?

The apparent independence of Israel merely serves to justify some of the criminal acts of the US and its Nato partners: Poor little Israel, anything is justified to ensure that the Holocaust won’t happen again — blah, blah, blah, as Larry would say.

“See, that’s the kind of stupid thinking that one finds on Craig Murray’s blog. It’s not enough to vehemently disagree with the U.S. intervention in Iraq – which would be an arguable position. But you have to go further than that, straight into nut job territory, and define the Iraq intervention as even worse than the aggressive wars launched by Hussein.”

Larry’s technique is based on the assumption that a large proportion of readers do not know much history and that they will fail, therefore, to understand the sophistry of Larry’s argument.

There is much to suggest that Iraq’s assault on Kuwait was a trap carefully laid by the United States. Kuwait, formerly a part of the Republic of Iraq, is a feudal dictatorship, created by the United Kingdom in 1961 as a device for siphoning a substantial portion of Iraq’s oil wealth to Britain, via the Kuwait investment office in London. Thus Iraq had a historic claim on Kuwait.

Moreover, on July 25, 1990, the U.S. Ambassador in Iraq, April Glaspie, declared to her Iraqi interlocutor that Washington, “inspired by the friendship and not by confrontation, does not have an opinion” on the disagreement between Kuwait and Iraq, stating “we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts.”

So, no, the stupid thinking here is Larry’s, or at least the stupid thinking he would like those here to adopt.

Larry, incidentally, claims not to be working for Israel. But he is clearly a propagandist. So who are you working for Larry? Tell us something about yourself.

Alfred, your very superficial knowledge of the Glaspie matter would benefit from additional learning and consideration. Or, you could continue to be manipulated by Baathist propaganda.

Baathist propaganda?

Facts, Larry, facts.

But as Craig suggested, why don’t you take a break. Your superficial interference becomes tedious.

Two things Israel ought to do, but won’t unless forced by having its billions of US dollars of unconditional, gratis payments stopped immediately and definitively:

1) Get out of the Occupied Territories, and stay out.

2) Admit to having masses of nuclear warheads and take the consequences.

Good article in today’s Herald:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/guest-commentary/time-to-talk-to-hamas-with-or-without-israel-s-blessing-1.1032579

“Two things Israel ought to do, but won’t unless forced by having its billions of US dollars of unconditional, gratis payments stopped immediately and definitively”

Suhayl, It is precisely so that Israel can continue to act as it does that it receives billions from the American taxpayer. One will never understand what is happening on the false assumption that Israel somehow controls the US, or for that matter, the false assumption that the US controls Israel. They are one imperialistic thing.

Sure there may be disagreements within the elite, but the elite is comprised of powerful and mostly extremely rich people. They don’t automatically walk in lockstep with one another. They are used to exercising their own authority. But they know if they do not hang together they will hang separately. So they maintain an effective unity, whether they are Israelis or Americans, Jews or Gentiles.

Larry said:”I’m a lawyer, but it doesn’t take a lawyer to figure this one out.

Larry isn’t a lawyer, he is a naughty boy!!!!

A fat middle aged naughty boy, who has never had a girl friend, lost his virginity or had a job.

All he does is write on this webpage or jacks of while watching http://www.ratemypoo.com

What’s a mother to do!!!!

Where did I go wrong?

I knew I shouldn’t have slept with Bernard Matthews, russel grant and Bernard Manning all in the same night.

But he offered me a half priced turkey twizzler! Half price!!!!!

an as yet undetermined number of people were shot in the face a few days ago

in the normal cause of events there would be an investigation followed by, if necessary, a trial

given that the killings did not take place in Israeli territory, that investigation should not be the responsibility of the Israelis

or am I missing something?

Yes, I agree with that, Alfred.

Btw, are you the same as the blogger, ‘Alfred Burdett’, or is that someone else? I got a bit confused at one point.

Hi John

> I am not ‘trivialising’ legality. That’s nonsense. On the

> contrary: the one trivialising it is Murray, by shooting from

> the hip and inventing absurd ‘illegalities’ where none

> exist.

I think this point is about international law, and here I am inclined towards Redders’ perspective, which is that Craig is well qualified to comment here, being a former Head of the Maritime Section of the FCO. I would further say that the distinction between legal and illegal, a state of war and a state of peace, terrorism and war crime are technical distinctions, but you make them emotive. I agree that tensions are undoubtedly raised by this issue, but to remain even-handed, I think it is important to remain dispassionate when analysing the situation.

> Claiming, e.g., that war needs to be declared in order to

> exist is hysterical nonsense

I am inclined towards this view because Craig supports it, and I respect his view. Merely dismissing it with exclamation and denunciation is, I am sure you would agree, insufficient to prove that it is untrue.

> not that the UN has a shred of moral or legal authority left,

> if it ever had one

Do you say that because of the resolutions that come out of the UN on a regular basis, and have done for the last few decades? I include a wikipedia link containing a list of successive motions, many of which are deeply critical of Israel. Is it not possible, in your view, that some of these are justified?

> Calling it ‘peace flotilla’ is like calling Saddam a

> ‘humanitarian’

Now I do have to stop you there. This is hysterical nonsense. Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of people, and was a cruel authoritarian – so evoking him as an equal to aid workers going to Gaza to supply food and building materials ought to be plainly ridiculous. Do you really hate them that much?

> There were quite a few convicted terrorists

> on board

The only sources I could find for +possible+ links between IHH and Islamic terrorism were Fox News (hardly a source of unbiased journalism) and something called “Right Side News” (with lots of Stars and Stripes on it). Both only talked about suspicions. Can you supply links about the terror convictions, and which flotilla members were convicted? If this is true, I would be sure that their names would be in the public domain, and we can analyse such claims for veracity.

[Wikipedia link below]

The reason why the Americans are saying the investigation should be carried out by the Israelis is they mean, no investigation should take place, what Israel says is all that matters.

“Poor little Israel, anything is justified to ensure that the Holocaust won’t happen again”

A disturbing statement.

Israel has said it has sent a nuclear armed submarine to the Persian Gulf. An officer the rank of colonel on-board is able to launch the nuclear missile.

In the UK a Trident nuclear missile can only be launched when two people with different keys unlock the firing circuits and a further launch code is received via a long wave transmission from the Prime Minister. If Britain has been attacked and no signal is received then a safe within a safe on every Trident SSBN contains a hand-written ‘letter of last resort’ with the final launch code from the Prime-Minister and an instruction.

England was, after all, the birthplace of the epistolary novel; should not its last expiring act be sealed in a handwritten letter?

: Mark Golding – Children of Iraq

So what is Israel saying now, the Racheal Corrie is full of nuclear war heads?

Or are they saying that the humanitarian aid contains beans, which palestinians intend to eat to gas Jews?

Disturbing in the fact that the statement is probably true. As I’ve said before, America holds the reins unless Shir HaShirim is silenced.

Yes, Suhayl, I’m AB. I am beginning to think that Internet anonymity is a bad idea, so at least occasionally I spell my name out in full. I should probably do it every time, it would make me mind my manners.

For Larry I suppose it would be impossible, since it would make him entirely unemployable as a lawyer. I mean, what could one expect:

LARRY:

Your Honor,

First, let me point out that the Prosecuting Attorney is fucking nuts.

Second, let me point out that the evidence presented against my client is sheer stupid police propaganda.

Third, in response to the hateful statement by the witness for the prosecution let me say: blah, blah, blah.

JUDGE:

Guilty as charged.

How to be a Pro Israel Troll:

Palestinians cannot be viewed as anything other than a subhuman species, animalistic in nature, incapable of either compassion (they want to wipe us from the face of the earth) or even logic (why did they vote Hamas when they knew we would punish them?).

Damn, their newborns are plotting the destruction of Israel and will be using their dummies to attack the IDF martyrs, which will be resisted with ultimate force. Not that anyone in the world cares. It’s only the terrorists (all of them) Palestinians’ after all ?” they make even the Iranians look evolved! And at the end of the day down the end of a scope it’s just like playing on the x-box only with better graphics.

When I see the corpses on TV, I must not feel doubt. Having doubts and questioning politicians with invested interests makes me very, very bad indeed and I feel I must cleanse myself by bathing in the blood of Palestinian babies to purge myself of impure thoughts against Israel. We are the kings and well, they are scum.

My stance would be unaffected if the IDF killed my family. The IDF martyrs would be acting in self defence because my mum probably would have a knife (even if she was in her own kitchen).

I will call people I disagree with pissants resorting to anyone of the following: race, religion, gender, sexuality, nationality to insult them. This is because I am so secure in my arguments and I am an obvious nice troll.

I will claim I am a lawyer, when the only relationship to a lawyer is that I can argue like Regrev and tell people the sky is not blue, the earth is not round and there is no other fucking way but my way so help me or I will fucking killlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll you…..because violence makes me hard in so many, many ways.

*******

Seriously though trolls, try and be a bit more human and have something intrinsic to us as a species compassion – you might like it instead of being gnarled, bitter, twisted things. Feel some love, not lust.

Ah shit – I just realised I no longer support the ‘official’ line. I must therefore be a holocaust denying anti-semite or a self hating jew.

P.S. I will not feed the trolls any further after this and I feel that everyone should follow suit as Larry and the other trolls are so engorged with incandescent rage that even a wafer thin piece offered to them may be very, very messy.

“JUDGE:

Guilty as charged.

”

LARRY:

All judges are swivel-eyed loons who believe [ insert dementedly provocative statement here ]

You’re right, and it’s reminded me to fill in the ‘remember me’ thing yet again …

It is a good thing, to know who we’re talking with.

Mark Golding

Saddam’s Ba’athism failed because it was Arab nationalism. Racism is inherently unstable and self-destructive. It challenged UKUSIS colonialism, but racism is a negative banner and makes it impossible for diverse interests to unite. Is Ba’athism being used again by the U.S. now to divide a weak and now redundant, Shi’a Arab government in Baghdad from a strong Iranian Shi’a presence in Iraq? The systems and contracts for stealing the oil are running fine, now a new government is needed to make Iraq a better place for colonists to live.

You’d have thought that Obama would have put the lid on the pot of Al Qaida paint. ‘We never have been and never will be at war with Islam.’ Obama’s new turn of policy. That doesn’t stop others from stirring and using the paint. Building up the threat from a non-existent Al Qaida might be a last ditch attempt to persuade the U.S. to retain its army in strength, by the existing government in Baghdad.

Israel and Obama plus poodle Blair, want to move Iraq on, if not to the Disneyland phase, at least to the functioning Muslim state stage. Iraq’s new government’s mission, set by the USUKIS mob, is to repair the bodywork with resin and spray Iraq with moderate Islam paint. To build a Muslim country in which foreigners will be welcome, and safe.

The USUKIS want to use the religious laxity of Shi’a Islam and the undercurrent of youth rebellion in Iran to make Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Egypt, Oman etc, a soft porn, easygoing Islamic region, with a whiff of religious conformity, representing moderate Islam and prosperous modernity, as against Saudi Arabia and Pakistan’s Sunni authoritarianism.

The threats to Iran are there for the purpose of persuading the theocrats in power to give more freedom to the populace, not to threaten the Shi’a authority, which is their tool to breaking real Islam. The continual violation of Palestine is a permanent threat to the Middle East of what USUKIS could do if they Arab states allow their citizens to breathe one word of resistance. Saddam’s Ba’athism was a lesson against dictator defiance to the UKUSIS plan.

Anyway, your Children of Iraq website is distinctly uninformative about your charity work. Please can you elaborate sometime about what you are doing and how you operate in Iraq?

Richard,

re: “swivel-eyed loons”

You capture idiom well

Here’s the Harvard component of the USIsrael Zionist ruling elite that I outlined earlier stepping in to give Israel legal cover for deliberately shooting US and Turkish citizens in the head multiple times after boarding their ship in international waters.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/israels-actions-were-enti_b_596285.html

And here’s a non-Jewish American political element of the USIsrael Zionist ruling elite stepping in to give Israel political cover for deliberately shooting US and Turkish citizens in the head multiple times after boarding their ship in international waters.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/jun/02/joe-biden-israel-gaza-flotilla-raid

“Here’s the Harvard component of the USIsrael Zionist ruling elite”

Here’s your argument:

“Dershowitz is a Joo.

Dershowitz is at Harvard.

Dershotwitz supports Israel.

Therefore, USIsrael Zionist ruling elite!”

“How to be a Pro Israel Troll:

Palestinians cannot be viewed as anything other than a subhuman species, animalistic in nature, incapable of either compassion”

I haven’t remotely said anything like that. Nor has anyone else.

What the fuck is wrong with you anti-Semites? You live in a fantasy world.

Thanks, Alfred.

Yes, why has the shooting-in-the-face of an American citizen not provoked official rage from the White House/ State Dept? Imagine what would’ve happened if, say, an Iranian soldier had shot a US civilian citizen in the face. The bombers would’ve been over Tehran as we speak.

Israel feels able to kill Americans, or anyone, with complete impunity. It is a unique and singular state in that respect. Exceptional, one might say.

Hey everyone. Just dropping in to make the (possibly unpopular) point which Chomsky makes about the Israeli Lobby: whenever a decision in the US comes down to US interests v Israeli interests, US interests always win out.

Can be empirically proven. Israel, therefore, is not in charge.

Here’s a piece from The Scotsman, saying that there are still people missing and that more may be dead:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/Gaza-flotilla-deathtoll-39higher-than.6340319.jp

Hi Technicolour, great to hear from you. It’s an excellent point.

But Chomsky himself has been criticised in some quarters as a de facto protector of, and apologist for, Israel.

It’s not really a question of Israel being ‘in charge’, but more of the undue and distorting influence exerted by fundamentalist Zionists on US politicians of all stripes. There are many in the US body politic and associated organs who have been furious at Israel for many years but dare not say so and dare not do anything about it, for fear of losing their jobs. Look at what happens to any Congressperson who stands up and criticises Israel’s actions; they lose their seat.

George Bush Senior was the last US president who publically – on TV – tried to stand-up to this lobby and he failed.

I’m not saying Chomsky’s position is not a valid one or that his views are not nuanced. Clearly, it’s good that he’s around and vocal in his criticism of Israel, that he gets denied entry to Israel and that he’s persistently critical of US imperial policy.

However, I think that it is appropriate to be alert and astute wrt his position in relation specifically to US-Israel dynamics:

http://www.leftcurve.org/LC29WebPages/Chomsky.html

This piece, by Michael Barker (who has made a very interesting study of liberal foundations and their role in promoting imperialism), focuses mainly on Stephen Zunes but also mentions Chomsky:

http://pulsemedia.org/2010/05/12/stephen-zunes-and-the-zionist-tinderbox/

Here’s Chomsky himself, and his facts, in debate with Omar Badar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U49fMY3C5tc

That’s an excellent link, Technicolour. The recording allows one to view, and assess, the arguments very effectively. Thanks for posting it.

anno,

We work under the direction of doctors for iraq doctorsforiraq.org (http://www.coia.org.uk/dfi.pdf)and provide learning aids (books, toys and early learning aids) to Iraq hospitals as authorised by the assistant to Dr. Salam Ismael.

He’s also very good on the rise of religious fundamentalisms and on the manner in which, over many decades throughout the region, the US has supported oppressive regimes which stymie development in their own countries. This, of course, was the old British policy too.

Suhayl:

Here’s WaPo trying to deal with the fact that Israel killed an American-born American citizen.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931.html

It’s like: Oh crap, they killed an American kid, now there’ll be a demand for a US investigation, so let’s focus on the fact that his father’s an immigrant from some Muslim backwater.

Technicolor:

“Just dropping in to make the (possibly unpopular) point which Chomsky makes about the Israeli Lobby: whenever a decision in the US comes down to US interests v Israeli interests, US interests always win out.”

I agree, for reasons I stated at some length above, that it is a mistake to believe that Israel rules the US. Equally, I believe it is a mistake to suppose, as Chomsky seems to imply, that the interests of the Israeli and US governments can be in opposition to one another. Both governments are controlled by the same Zionist movement, and the Zionist movement is not alien to the United States. Zionism took root in America long before the founding of the state of Israel. And today the American government is dominated by American Zionists.

Obama’s chief of staff may be an Israeli citizen, the son of an Irgun terrorist, an IDF veteran and, presumably, a Mossad agent, but he’s also an American.

Vice-President Biden is not a Jew, but he’s a Zionist. What he thinks about Israel and the Jews is irrelevant. He must along to get along. Likewise, Obama.

Zionism is the most powerful political movement in the United States because it controls much of America’s wealth, it controls the chief American news media organizations and it controls most other aspects of American culture from Hollywood to the porn industry and to book publishing, and through AIPAC it owns Congress.

Some people say AIPAC should be registered as the agent of a foreign government. But in fact it is the agent of the American Zionist movement, which is not foreign at all.

Zionism in America will be defeated only if the 98% or so of Americans who are not Zionists have the motivation and ability to develop a competing power structure that limits and eventually supercede the Zionist network.

Given the near total control of American culture, capital and news dissemination by the Zionist clique, a counter-revolution seems most unlikely. America, as a free and prosperous society is almost certainly doomed.

Mark Golding

Thanks.

Alfred, according to Chomsky, US and Israeli interests can and do diverge, with the results as predicted, eg:

“Take, as one example, arms sales to China, which they (Mearsheimer & Walt) bring up as undercutting US interests. But they fail to mention that when the US objected, Israel was compelled to back down: under Clinton in 2000, and again in 2005, in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel. Without a peep from The Lobby, in either case, though it was a serious blow to Israel”

http://www.zcommunications.org/the-israel-lobby-by-noam-chomsky

Technicolor,

If Israel is exposed in actions that would be regarded as treachery by the US public (high-fiving in front of the burning Twin Towers, for example), the US government has to do something about it (In the case of the five dancing Israeli’s they deported them. Later the five admitted on Israel TV that they were Mossad agents). Hence the Israeli spy Pollard is in a US jail. Hence, the US State Department acknowledges that because Israeli pirates (illegal warriors, or whatever) just killed an American citizen an American investigation will have be conducted (damn it). But this is just about managing the sheeple, it in no way reflects a real conflict within the Zionist elite that controls both the US and Israel and much of the rest of the western world beside.

Perhaps, then, we are merely arguing over the definition of terms. My contention is that there can be no conflict between the governments of the US and Israel because a single Zionist movement controls both. However, there can be extreme conflicts of interest betweeen the ruling elite, or Zionist power structure, and the people of both the United States and Israel.

In a comment here, I stated:

“Today, America’s Neocons, who as noted by David Frum are necessarily Zionists, seek American global hegemony.”

In this I was following Wendy’s comment that” in stating that

“as david frum (he of axis of evil speech writer and leading neo con) has stated one can only be a neo conservative if one is 100% pro zionist.”

Now I am unable to find the source of that statement by Frum. Can Wendy, or anyone else direct me to it?

In the interim, I withdraw my statement concerning the necessary connection between Neoconism and Zionism, notwithstanding the fact that most of the leading Neocons, whether Jewish on non-Jewish, are Zionists.

Here, I seem to be talking to myself. Anyway, here’s a link where Chomsky is quoted as stating, in effect, that Israel does what America commands, which is essentially what I have been saying that USIsrael is one entity so far as critical questions of defense and global empire are concerned.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=113360&sectionid=3510203

The implication is that Israelis live a dangerous life as citizens of a front-line satellite of the American empire.

Israelis are filth. The US should give them 90 days to get off other people’s land and stop brutalizing them. After that, we should attack Israel with napalm and high explosives. Give them one last chance, after which, the place should be obliterated.

No person of conscience can have the slightest sympathy for the Israeli scum.