Wish I was there! Sounds cosmic! Am working, unfortunately. Hope it goes well.

I have just volunteered for some helping, if there is no upper age limit, my ‘previous’, looking after health and safety at major fairs should be handy to Jamie.

Been doing this since 1985 on and off, but its all the way up in Scotland, the country I have still to discover.

Very much in the vein of other “lifestyle” festivals such as the Big Chill, Shambala and The Secret Garden Party. Few big names but lots of entertainment, beautiful setting and friendly people. Of course the Big Chill sold out years ago to some big ents company and I haven’t been back since.

Sounds like great fun for kids, but hundreds of kms from where I am!

Reminds me of Glastonbury and that famous ‘pyramid’ stage – we held hands – we sang – we loved and helped each other while Marc Bolan sang ‘get it on (Bang a Gong).

And in the spirit of those days I ask for your help..

Janice Kelly and the family of Dr David Kelly have endured misery for far too long. Since being turfed out into the garden in the cold in her dressing gown while ‘police’ stripped the wall-paper of her house; witnessed a death certificate that bluntly said ‘found’ as the place of death and unsigned by a doctor; told that friends and colleagues should not attend the burial; told by Hoon MP that he had evidence in this case that could bring Blair down as Prime-Minister; forced to sell up and move away by intimidation.

Please help and write to your MP for a public inquiry to give Janice closure.

“Astonishingly, on August 18, less than three weeks into the Hutton Inquiry, which opened on August 1, Dr Kelly’s death certificate was mysteriously completed and the cause of his death officially registered as haemorrhage.

Put another way, five weeks before the Hutton Inquiry ended on September 24, 2003, and while the judge was still taking evidence about Dr Kelly’s death from witnesses, the official record of the cause of death was written and the case effectively closed.

Misleadingly, the death certificate states an inquest did take place on August 14 – even though we now know no inquest actually happened. And extraordinarily, though it bears the signature of the registrar, it is not signed by either a doctor or a coroner as every death certificate should be.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289692/Dr-David-Kelly-The-damning-new-evidence-points-cover-Tony-Blairs-government.html#ixzz0rwvXlOy7

Thank-you so much

Mark Golding

Milton Keynes

Fascinating, Mark. Thanks for the link. No doubt now we will start receiving avuncular rationalisations for all of these inconguities. But a great big vaccum remains where the truth ought to be.

I’d liked to listen to some Orange Bicycle today. Summer music.

Can’t these kids just take drugs like normal people ?

Hey Craig!

Do you agree with your fanatical disciple that people’s right to hold beliefs should be restricted by… anything at all?

And, do you really wish to attract disciples of this sort?

FFS (pardon my language), even Zionists don’t say this!

Summer music festivals. Peace and love, and all that. Good vibes. The Smoke – another great group from way-back-when.

err, suhayl, that’s called senile rambling.

Ha! ‘My Friend Jack’, The Smoke – check it out on youtube. Morgan Studios, I think.

Orange Bicycle was very big on the Continent, esp. in France.

Okay, okay… it’s 2010, yes, I remember now. Ah, mellow.

For you Suhayl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXCoQVm5S-4&playnext_from=QL

Thanks, Scouse Billy. I’ll check it out later today – I can’t access youtube et al from I am right now. Cheers.

Btw, do you know of a (late) singer-songwriter called Jimmy Campbell from Liverpool? He was a superb songwriter, ver elegant pop songs. He died a couple of years ago, I think.

Sadly not, Suhayl. I’ve been an “ex-pat” for 30 years. I will look him up though.

Forgot to check “Remember Me”

“told by Hoon MP that he had evidence in this case that could bring Blair down as Prime-Minister”

Do you have a source for that?

“tea party”

There’s a phrase that’s garnered a whole new meaning recently.

Suhayl,

I am trying to contact Lou Holmes, of Upshire Gardens in Martins Heron who owns Brock the dog that found David. She told me in 2005 I think (through her friend) that David Kelly’s body was moved and that both Paul and herself had:

Not seen any blood from a so called haemorrhage.

Not seen the knife, water bottle or watch at the scene.

Had seen three men in civilian clothes on a path near the tree David was propped up against.

This from Janet in LONDON – even more fascinating if confirmed.

“And nothing here about the announcement of his death by the police (later denied) BEFORE he was “found” dead. (Oops) And nothing about a powerful secret services radio signals post set up in Dr Kelly’s garden – again, before he was found dead. It was a radio signal that couldn’t be intercepted. Why was this needed? And why were the ONLY messages known to be sent from it, to Tony Blair updating him on events, while he was in his government plane, on an overseas mission? And nothing about a female colleague of Dr Kelly’s who was mysteriously found dead, having “jumped” through her bedroom window, apparently having been warned off. She called someone to say if she was found dead to report her fears. That person has also been shut up. ”

“This whole saga stinks to high heaven, and BLAIR is one stinky fish in the centre. That seventy year gag order should be lifted forthwith before any witnesses are disappeared.”

‘Makes me wish I were young again.’

I went to Glastonbury 2000

I think it was that last one before the ‘iron ‘ wall went up.

Incredible number of people and wonderfully free.

Mark, I think the lady from London is called Rosemary.

I picked up on that too (and posted it elsewhere). I wonder where she got her info?

“Francois and The Atlas Mountains”

is this one of the bands?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD97JlbQR6Q

Listen from 2:22

Thanks Scouse Billy,

good thinking Billy – great mind – I wondered where that info came from and thought twice about posting – I’ve not seen that before and I speak to Norman on Facebook; he is the expert but not mentiuone dit either. Must do some more digging.

Mark,

Thanks – great minds, indeed.

Yes, please do some digging.

I’ve been following the doctors for a while now too. It’s refreshing to see their tenacity.

As this particular thread is about entertainment, here’s a look at the weighty subject of UFOs. Here’s a recent eye-opening Close Encounter with .. well, I can tell you that it ain’t just chicken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHyBxincEco

Scouse Billy,

Doing some digging about the radio mast I have learned there was indeed a standard SIS comms unit set up at Kelly’s home – I would think HF encrypted radio teletype to send possibly a double encrypted ‘fax’ to Blair. Why such importance? If you believe Kelly was murdered ie no blood because heart stopped, no heat detected, Operation Mason started before David left home (2:30pm Thursday); SIS arrive at Janice Kelly before David was found and some ‘items’ taken including a coat and of course David was heading in the direction of the nearby village of Kingston Bagpuize according to a neighbour, Ms Absalom, NOT Harrowdown Hill ,then, as I do, you might believe that Blair said YES to the murder – hence he was desperate to know the cover-up went as planned.

Who would murder David Kelly and why. The why is easy to fathom because his evidence (more than we heard) would screw-up the American occupation of Iraq now in a sensitive stage because of the Uranium (yellow-cake) balls-up and the ‘outing’ of a CIA agent which is considered very serious. The ‘dodgy dossier’ was already giving Bush & Co kittens.

Who done it? Of course ‘dark actors’ as David Kelly said himself predicting he would be ‘found dead in a wood.’ I suspect we might just find out soon.

Mr John Simkin, a historian, makes the Machiavellian suggestion that pressure could have been maintained by a threat to Blair from America to leak information about the death in a way that would have implicated the British government if Blair failed to follow the Bush line on the war.

A friend of mine, a lowly MI5 field technician maintains, ‘we don’t do assassinations’ so was it the 3/4 people in a boat on the river Thames greeting Lou and Paul – were they British/Iraqi/American?

Certainly Tony Blair knows but he is now in the ‘protected club’!

craig,

do you think the liberal democrats will want to reopen the inquiry into the circumstances of dr. david kelly’s death?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289692/Dr-David-Kelly-The-damning-new-evidence-points-cover-Tony-Blairs-government.html#ixzz0rwvXlOy7

cheers,

mbotta

Mark, all of that is fascinating – and extremely scary. I don’t know enough – or can’t remember enough – about the details of the case to follow all your references. Who’s ‘Rosemary’, and who are ‘Paul and Lou’? By ‘Norman’, do you mean Norman Baker? Who is John Simkin? I hadn’t heard about the female colleague who “jumped out of a window”. I haven’t been following it closely enough.

One of the points made in the Baker book is that the injuries to Kelly’s wrist seem so amateur as to be not credible, i.e. they were inflicted as a conscious distraction, not simply in relation to the cause of death but also in order to point the finger at ‘amateurs’ or an ‘amateur’ suicide. I mean, if they’d really wanted to make it look like suicide, they ought to have slashed his wrist/ forearm before death in a longitudinal direction up the radial artery. So, was this killing a warning to other potential whistleblowers? “We can kill and make it look so amateurish and still get away with it”. I don’t buy Baker’s (albeit tentative) conclusion about Iraqi exiles and a UK govt cover-up of these exiles. I don’t think that’s credible. I think the UK govt certainly covered-up, but that the cover-up was of something was far more serious and systemic than simply a bunch of hoodlums.

Your pal at the SS may not have been lying, but the fact that they “don’t do assassinations” does not mean they don’t sub-contract such work to organisations that do. Rather like the outsourcing, by the SIS, of torture.

Tell us more, please. What is your theory – from the knowledge which you have accrued – on the death?

I don’t think we will find out soon, unfortunately. At least not definitively. The entire edifice of liberal democratic capitalist legitimacy in the UK rests on the fiction that the state does not kill its own citizens on UK soil or indeed elsewhere. If this facade were to be ripped away ‘mass publically’, it would risk threatening the ruling political class. That will not be allowed.

That is no reason not to continue to seek the truth, of course.

Mark, thank you. I’m not sure your friend is correct – Rasputin comes to mind.

There must be so much on Blair that, as you say, puts him in the “protected club” for the time being. I ponder what it would take for him to be “sacrificed”.

I felt like hearing my favourite song today. It is a beautiful song by Ismael Lo, a singer from Senegal, plangent yet soothing, and takes me to a world away from mine.

This song is also part of the original soundtrack of Pedro Almodovar’s movie All About My Mother” (“Todo sobre mi madre”) which is when I first heard it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lTHiObYX1o

PS Does anyone know what the type of tall building at 37 seconds is called? The stills are beautiful too and seem to match the music.

Suhayl,

Here is John Simkin and Norman Baker on the same blog talking about Norman’s book “The Strange Death of David Kelly.”

Louise Holmes and Paul ? I have forgotten his surname are the two ‘search & rescue’ team who with the help of ‘Brock’ the brilliant Border Collie and award winning search dog.

getbracknell.co.uk/news/s/2072843_rescue_dog_brock_misses_out_on_award

Louise was with Chilterns search team:

chiltern-search-dogs.org.uk/

and I think now the UK search & Rescue is co-ordinated by this group

ert-sar.co.uk/

I hope that helps.

Sorry forgot the link:

educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11738

Somebody, appropo that building at 32 seconds into the song, it is of Maliean architecture imho., circa 600 years old and either a mosque, or an ancient grain silo.

The pieces of wood you can see sticking out, making it look like a Daleek, have no load bearing purpose, they are purely for maintenance.

Usually once a year, everyone comes from all over the place and coats the surface of the whole building, by hand, with a new layer of mud, a community effort when people get together.

So much to concrete….

Thanks for that Ingo. If a grain store in Mali, sadly now empty in all probability.

http://www.temoust.org/famine-and-drought-in-the-kidal,14560

here is another picture of the main mosque in Dienne, build in 1240, Norman Foster eat your heart out.

These buildings have metre thick walls at ground level and are cool in summer and provide shelter and safety during the ever decreasing rainy seasons.

http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/mali/djenne.html

Did Dr Kelly’s expertise include microbiological weapons? I remembered this article:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_14_02_microbio.html

Some people may howl that it’s on Mike Ruppert’s old sites. Please note that I’m not suggesting that this article be accepted uncritically, more that it could contain leads for people who know more about this than I do myself.

Yes, Clark, most certainly. He worked at Porton Down.

As I recall, David Aaronobitch’s “Voodoo Histories” contained a section on David Kelly. But here is a link to an article covering the same ground:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article2719239.ece

Briefly, there are parallels to the case of Hilda Murrell who was killed by a local criminal, but which threw up conspiracy theories at the time similar to those surrounding Dr. Kelly. Someone who takes 29 co-proxamol tablets and slits one’s wrists, however amateurishly, is not likely to need any additional assiatsnce from Iraqi assassins to cross the Big River. Conspiracy enthusiasts may wish to go to Dounce Castle as therapy to get their minds off things.

Anyone who, in attempting to make his case, quotes one word that Aaronovitch writes must himself be similarly prejudiced or at least naive.

It is obvious what his agenda is on this if you make the link to Dr Kelly’s death and how disturbed he probably was about the weaponry that was being used in Iraq from the start of the invasion. I have read that thermonuclear weapons might have been used which would have accounted for injuries that Ali Abbas sustauned. There are plenty of shocking photos of him lying on his hospital bed, having lost 14 members of his family in March 2003.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7797876.stm

Dr Kelly was put out of the way.

This is Gilad Atzmon writing on Aaronovitch’s tantrum at an Oxford debate when Aaronovitch’s attempt to discredit Atzmon failed.

‘Aaronovitch who is notoriously famous for lobbying for a war that that has left (so far) 1.5 million civilians dead, a person that is engaged in spreading vile anti left and Islamophobic Zionised propaganda, is convinced that he is entitled to preach to the public who should participate in the discourse.’

(atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/9110-gilad-atzmon-aaronovitchs-tantrum-and-the-demolition-of-jewish-power.html)

Again with respect Abe I note your pejorative tone bordering on ridicule.

This is no ‘fringe theory’ having been taken up for many years by eminent surgeons and doctors in who I have a great deal of faith.

Do I need therapy? Cardinal McCormick wrote a reply to me some time ago when I questioned the morality of Tony Blair preaching as a Catholic having agreed to attack an innocent country and murder its children – he (via his private assistant) told me I was frantic and needed to stay calm – so yes my mind is in hyperdrive.

This case is supported by conclusive evidence so the term ‘conspiracy’ (which I hate incidentally) I feel should not be used dismissively in an attempt to characterize the facts as outlandishly false and held by person(s) judged to be a crank(s).

So, (in light of the above) was the BMA targeted? Curiously speaking Tavistock Square and Ben Stack are both on a Duke’s land.

Of course just a coincidence? This to take the mind of things:

http://shaphan.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/questions_about.html

Abe Rene,

there are problems with the evidence that you cite. Although packaging for 29 co-proxamol tablets was found, it is not known that they were all taken immediately before Dr Kelly’s death, and the toxicology report is consistent a much lower dose. A slit wrist does not generally induce death; a transverse slit is often regarded as a ‘cry for help’ because it is generally not fatal – as they say, if you’re serious about suicide you slit along the artery. And a Freedom of Information act request revealed that Dr Kelly’s knife had no fingerprints upon it. There should have been an inquest.

Yes, I’d like to attend this festival, but it is quite a long way from me.

“Anyone who, in attempting to make his case, quotes one word that Aaronovitch writes must himself be similarly prejudiced or at least naive.”

I suppose the argumentum ad hominem is always perfectly acceptable when directed against a person you don’t like. Some people might, with justification, say that anyone quoting Gilad Atzmon must be prejudiced or at least naive. On the other hand we may be charitable and think they are simply connoisseurs of irony appreciating his snide contempt for not just Israelis (which is perfectly okay, of course) but pretty much all Jews while simultaneously declaring that there is no such thing as Jews, that he is one (or rather an ex-one), that anti-semitism doesn’t exist and that it is perfectly justified. It’s an Orwellian balancing act to be sure but post-modernism has given fantasy dissidents the immense luxury of being able to make furious moral denunciations without having to worry about staid old conceptions such as truth or consistency.

somebody takes this form of inconsistency, in a more innocent age thought of as hypocrisy, as a central plank of his argument that if someone he doesn’t like argues convincingly that no conspiracy exists then it counts as evidence that that person is PART OF the conspiracy:

“It is obvious what his agenda is on this if you make the link to Dr Kelly’s death and how disturbed he probably was about the weaponry that was being used in Iraq from the start of the invasion. I have read that thermonuclear weapons might have been used which would have accounted for injuries that Ali Abbas sustauned. There are plenty of shocking photos of him lying on his hospital bed, having lost 14 members of his family in March 2003.”

As for this bizarre nonsequiter, where on earth did you read the gem that hydrogen bombs were used in the attack on Iraq? Why would they need to be?

Anyway, what is the extent of the latest charge here? The fact that someone had written “found on Harrowdown Hill” which conspiracy theorists believe the coroner or whoever signed the certificate had hinted in a subtly subversive or proudly intimidative fashion that it wasn’t where he had died? Am I the only one to think that that is extremely weak?

And what on Earth is this about the Kelly family having their wallpaper stripped for listening devices? Is the charge being made here that they had planted bugs so that they could hear when he was leaving the house and then intercept him? If that were the case then why wouldn’t those stripping the wallpaper for these devices know where they are and NOT strip the wallpaper?

My view concerning Dr Kelly is that the SIS murdered him because he was writing a book which might have exposed the goings-on involving chemical and biological warfare programmes and arms sales during the 80s and 90s. It would not surprise me at all if in fact the UK sponsored the work of Dr Basson whose aims alledgedly included the creation of a biological weapon designed to attack the black population while leaving whites unscathed.

Dr Kelly’s loyalty could no longer be guaranteed with his openness about the government sexing up the dossier. His ‘upset’ from being exposed and the parliamentary grilling gave the SIS the excuse they needed to make it appear he was suicidal and in a rush they botched up the appearance of suicide so all the apparatus of the corrupt Establishment came into play to cover up foul play.

Somebody has suggested the police removed wallpaper because they were looking for bugging devices. Surely it’s far more likely they were looking for hidden documents and data storage devices.

I’ve always found Norman Baker’s theory that a group of Iraqis dissidents murdered Dr Kelly bizzare but I understand where it comes from. Whilst writing his book the MP had his computer files at his Lewes constituency office remotely wiped. If the SIS couldn’t stop him reaching the conclusion that Kelly had been murdered they could have quite easily have pointed him in the direction as to who the murderers were. In fact Norman Baker said in the Mail,

‘A well-placed source also told me that the British police or security services had been warned of a likely assassination attempt but were not in time to stop it.’

“It would not surprise me at all if in fact the UK sponsored the work of Dr Basson whose aims alledgedly included the creation of a biological weapon designed to attack the black population while leaving whites unscathed.”

And it wouldn’t surprise you, why?

“Somebody has suggested the police removed wallpaper because they were looking for bugging devices. Surely it’s far more likely they were looking for hidden documents and data storage devices.”

It is?

Have we actually confirmed that the police removed wallpaper at all?

Interesting that after an absence here, inserts like Angrysoba suddenly pop out of the woodwork like the larvae of death watch beetles, appropriately enough.

Angry doesn’t give a damn how David Kelly died. He’s here for argument, and in as arrogant a manner as possible. Same goes for Larry.

There are people here who obviously do care about what they’re writing about. Not those two. They’re here purely to disrupt. Starting from a position of faux-superiority and know-it-all-ness.

“Have we actually confirmed that the police removed wallpaper at all?”

You don’t mean “we”, you mean “you”. You couldn’t care less whether wallpaper was removed or not. You’re simply trying to get someone else to prove that it was. Why should they waste their time on you?

“Interesting that after an absence here, inserts like Angrysoba suddenly pop out of the woodwork like the larvae of death watch beetles, appropriately enough.”

“Inserts”? What are “inserts”?

Somebody,

I don’t think Angrysoba is an “insert”. Take a look at his blog; my impression is that “debunking conspiracy theories” is a sort of hobby of his. He does follow links and he looks into some matters quite deeply, deeper than I have the patience for. I do feel he’s somewhat biased towards agreeing with the mainstream, and tends to follow those links further than the ones that might refute it, but then, that is the nature of his “hobby”. I certainly don’t find it suspicious that his comments follow discussion of the Kelly case, it is simply one of the issues that interest him.

“debunking conspiracy theories” is a sort of hobby -

Which means starting from the given government line in each case, and setting about debunking everyone else? This sounds incredibly naive. It also suggests that one will not seriously investigate anomalies in the “given line”. Rather stupid, I’d have thought, since one will inevitably miss those cases where propaganda has prevailed.

“Conspiracy theories” is a label used by the “authorities” to discredit enquiring minds and dissenting voices.

Slightly off topic. Our old chaotic merchants and murder inc.Blackwater have landed a 100′s of millions contract in Afghanistan guarding embassies and consulates.

Expect the downwards spiral in Afghanistan to speed up.

Meanwhile Karzai si said to hold talks with one of the US opponents Sirajuddin Haqqani, a man who has clout across the border with Pakistan and who is a king pin of the opposition.

He will have to talk to Taliban leaders as well, because without it, nothing will change for those soldiers on the ground, not to speak of urgently needed development of this country, preferably by its own people.

But we all know this economic enabling is not happening.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/06/20106277582708497.html

“Which means starting from the given government line in each case, and setting about debunking everyone else? This sounds incredibly naive. It also suggests that one will not seriously investigate anomalies in the “given line”. Rather stupid, I’d have thought, since one will inevitably miss those cases where propaganda has prevailed.”

I don’t suppose it would matter if I said that I became interested in the Dr Kelly case BECAUSE I thought there were compelling reasons for believing that he’d been murdered, that I bought Norman Baker’s book, read it and became convinced while reading it that he had actually committed suicide?

Would it matter? No, because I’ll still be accused of having gullibly lapped up the “government story” the very next time this comes up and I enquire, “Where did that story come from?”

Angrysoba,

I hadn’t seen “inserts” used in this context before, it presumably means someone whose job is to discredit arguments that might reveal a truth hidden by some government or authority, as suggested by Cass Sunstein.

McIntyre,

Angrysoba is right in pointing out that ad hominen attacks are not evidence no matter which way they are directed.

Angrysoba’s presence here is positive, his contributions encourage good argument. I wouldn’t want counter arguments to the mainstream to go unchallenged, that wouldn’t serve the truth.

“Angrysoba is right in pointing out that ad hominen attacks are not evidence no matter which way they are directed”

I find it funny that it’s Angry who’s trying to make that point. The vast majority here don’t need telling. He should direct his attention to Larry.

“Angrysoba’s presence here is positive, his contributions encourage good argument.”

That’s a matter of opinion.

Anyone who read Norman Baker’s book, and thereby became convinced that David Kelly’s death was suicide, is a most incurious person indeed.

McIntyre,

you’ve probably noticed the futility of directing any attention to Larry. He’s an output-only device, his input and interactive functions seem irredeemably heat-compromised to me.

Thanks Clark.

Good day to you, McIntyre. I actually thought you were being humourous before with your posting of the “Larry Chomstein” blog. The ironic warnings that Larry would follow Israel’s example and probably neither confirm nor deny being the owner(“watch his language!” you cautioned) struck me as very funny. I’m a little gobsmacked to discover you were actually probably being serious.

I have to agree with you McIntyre that a ‘compelling argument’ for suicide does not ‘stack up’ if we apply two theories of truth.

In brief, using the correspondence theory highlights the weakness of medical evidence for suicide,ie analysis of blood proves a low level of toxins. At least three eminent surgeons agree that cutting the ulner artery does not lead to death by haemorrhaging.

Assessing the Evidence Using a Social Constructionist Theory of Truth we note the 30yr and 70 yr block on evidence by the government.

The likelihood of a body witnessed by two s&r moving from being propped up against a tree to flat out on the ground and the lack of blood witnessed by the s&r team and two paramedics in a case of haemorrhaging is remote. Occam’s razor applies.

“…I became interested in the Dr Kelly case BECAUSE I thought there were compelling reasons for believing that he’d been murdered”

So, Angry, what were those compelling reasons?

“…I bought Norman Baker’s book, read it and became convinced while reading it that he had actually committed suicide”

And what was in Norman Baker’s book that changed your mind and made you believe it was suicide?

I’m not guessing that Larry is Larry Chomstein, by the way. I know he is.

Mark,

Yes, I’ve followed the story from Day 1, far too many oddities … And if there’s nothing suspicious to be revealed, why the 70 year block. It’s virtually unheard of, as I understand it.

“I actually thought you were being humourous before with your posting of the “Larry Chomstein” blog.”

Why?

Mark, thanks for the link:

http://shaphan.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/questions_about/comments/page/2/#comments

Interesting comment there:

“1. The key to understanding what is going on in Britain 2008 is to realise that New Labour is Fabian. 2. The final objective of the Fabians is to create a One World Communitarian (‘Third Way’) government. This ties in with the New World Order project. 3. Common Purpose is the management mechanism being used to carry out the true and hidden agenda of Fabian New Labour. 4. The economic and social chaos that we are witnessing nowadays has been deliberately engineered by Fabian New Labour and Common Purpose along with New World Order plotters in places like the United States and the European Union. 5. There are literally no depths to which this institutionally-corrupt Fabian New Labour government will not descend: multi-billion Eurofraud, relentless and ruthless abuses of citizens, lying, cheating, secrecy, going to war on the basis of lies, oppressive social control, abrogating sovereign rule to Brussels, bankrupting the country and so on. http://www.stopcp.com“

Mark Golding: my last sentence was a joke. Whether Dounce Castle would do you good I leave to those you know best to judge. But I stand by the substance of what I said. Aaronovitch makes an important point that this kind of event has happened before: someone gets murdered, and because the circumstances are unusual, conspiracy theories get generated. Eventually (in the case of Hilda Murrell, via DNA evidence) the ordinariness of the case is revealed. A generation from now Kelly’s death may have been shown conclusively not to be murder, but some other unfortunate may have died in unusual circumstances, and conspiracy theorists will no doubt be at it again.

Mark Golding, it sounds like you learned philosophy from a new-age beard-stroking psychedelic hippy. Therefore you did. Occam’s Razor. QE-BS.

The correspondence theory states that the truth is whatever corresponds to the facts, not whatever corresponds to suspicions padding out gaps between the facts.

What you call the social constructionist theory is a lame kindergarten caricature of what is already brainless nonsense. The Emperor’s New Clothes was just a fable you know. Didn’t really happen.

Like other conspiraloons, you’re relying on a dangerous mix of the coherence theory and the pragmatist theory, wherein the truth is whatever coheres with the predetermined suspicions that happen to suit your political purposes. And your arguments from selective authority are not convincing in the least.

“My suspicions are probably right, so whatever explains my suspicions is the most satisfying explanation, and must be right as well. Therefore … yada yada” That’s not Occam’s Razor, you moron: it’s the fallacy of affirming the consequent (in Occam’s New Clothes).

Go back to logic school, Goldie … if you can find the way. (Clue: don’t look inside yourself. Those aren’t the answers you’re looking for.)

Abe, where is this “Dounce” castle of which you speak? Could it hold a few more dounces, do you think? Cuz we could ship out a few from this loony blog.

“Dounce” castle appears to be Craig’s own invention. Kind of makes sense, doesn’t it?

Nice to see a rare outbreak of rational sanity, M. Rene. Pass round more of that conspiraloon antidote.

For once Larry your post is ‘moronically’ funny – I quite enjoyed the thought of a beard-stroking psychedelic hippy – although strangely as a sailor I am not too keen on beards (to be honest my wife moans they cause a rash )

Good try Larry – much better than abuse! But I think you might be standing on quick-sands with this one and don’t ask me to throw you a line.

“So, Angry, what were those compelling reasons?”

Pretty vague ones about the timing etc…

“what was in Norman Baker’s book that changed your mind and made you believe it was suicide?”

The fact that Dr Kelly’s own mother had committed suicide before by a very similar method was one alarm bell. Baker of course dismisses it and says that Dr Kelly didn’t get upset about it when talking of it so it wasn’t any indication of his own potential state of mind. He also dismisses what his wife and daughters say of him and one of his best friends Tom Mangold (sp?) and instead relies on his pub friends as character witnesses. This is despite the fact that Dr Kelly was described as very depressed by Janice Kelly (who hasn’t endorsed any new investigation, as far as I know). The “dead in the woods” thing that Baker considers “uncanny” is completely unsurprising if someone had ever mentally played out their own suicide yet Baker seems to think this is an impressive act of foresight (not if he committed suicide it’s not!). Then there are various really far-fetched extrapolations of very ordinary events such as the police turning up and using a sniffer dog in the house or the large mast erected in the garden (could it be sending signals to Tony Blair on his way to Tokyo? muses Baker). I started getting the impression that Baker had an overactive imagination and that he often chose the most unlikely interpretation of events to weave all the anomalies together.

Now, if Janice Kelly or his daughters ever ask for the case to be reopened then I may change my stance from highly doubting the conspiracy theories to thinking that a new enquiry is necessary. Also we’ve gone over the 70 year thing before (a number of times now).

“I’m not guessing that Larry is Larry Chomstein, by the way. I know he is.”

Of course he is.

“Why?”

Why?!?!? I’m sorry, Colin, I really thought you were being ironic. I don’t have time to explain that right now, though sorry.

Scousebilly, first time I have ever heard that the Fabians are the masters of the universe. Thanks for the chuckles. Next up, PETA? The RSPCA? The National Trust?

“I am not too keen on beards (to be honest my wife moans they cause a rash )”

Stop hiring your wife out to bin Laden’s buddies, then. Not surprised that you get your funding from ragheads, but I didn’t figure you did it this way. What’s wrong? Why can’t you satisfy her yourself?

“strangely as a sailor”

That says it all, strange sailorboy.

Quiet revealing just how quickly some commentators managed to divert a post on a psychedelic festival back onto their own chosen subject.

Craig, I live in Scotland and just spent the weekend at a lovely small independent festival about an hour north of Edinburgh. If I still have the money in July I might check out the one in Doune, it looks fun. I would also recommend Kelburn Garden Party this weekend, another independent festival just to the west of Glasgow.

Schnews had an interesting story last week about the police crackdown on free parties and Teknivals

http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news727.php.

Sam,

I should apologise to you and Craig for my part in diverting this thread. I find it sad that people become abusive. There is no need for it.

Yes, always a clampdown on the free festivals. I used to go to Stonehenge years ago. Now, only commercial festivals are allowed.

“So, Angry, what were those compelling reasons? [to think David Kelly had been murdered]”

“Pretty vague ones about the timing etc…”

And they were compelling?? I put it to you that you’re fabricating the idea that you had any ‘compelling reasons’ whatsoever.

“I started getting the impression that Baker had an overactive imagination and that he often chose the most unlikely interpretation of events to weave all the anomalies together.”

I’m not interested in his interpretations. I’m only interested in the facts/events. What anomalies do you have in mind?

“Why?!?!? I’m sorry, Colin, I really thought you were being ironic”

Why would you think it at all strange or amusing that anyone would say Larry wrote that blog, or came from there? Throwing in “Colin” changes nothing. What do you know about Larry, or BlameBush, that caused you to be ‘gobsmacked’ when I said that it was his blog? Why would anyone be ‘gobsmacked’?

I also was at the one before the last Stonehenge events and joined the so called peace convoy, organising free festivals all around the country, to the annoiance of the police…

oh what fun we had.

Angrysober – your analogy to alarm bells should have been the kudu horn instead of a bell ie a ‘lost’ argument; but of course I understand ‘fear’ is ‘de rigeur’ at this moment in history.

My wife’s brother has tried to commit suicide 6 times over a period of twenty years, by O/D ing and all these attempts had been preceded by a loss of self esteem, hopelessness and cries for help that family and close friends had ignored! Depression does run in the family but has been remarkably reduced by a new family of serotonin reuptake inhibitors.

David Kelly was not in this category, in fact his close friends commented his was upbeat, had found joy in a new faith and was an active participant in that faith.

I believe David had been scared, much like Robin Cook; why would he have mentioned, ” “dark actors playing games” and being found “dead in the woods?”

The bottom line is this: Does the Hutton Inquiry (http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/transcripts/hearing-trans17.htm) represent an adequate investigation into the cause of death, sufficient to render a verdict of suicide? The answer is of course No!

In fact, Ambassador Broucher said at the inquiry that David Kelly had given assurances to Iraq’s leaders that no invasion would take place so long as the weapons inspectors were allowed to do their job. If an invasion of Iraq occurred, David Kelly said he would be found dead in the woods; Broucher thought this was a ‘throw away’ remark. (transcript 145-146)

Let us not forget the BBC lawyers said the Hutton Report was ‘legally flawed’ and 73% of Britain (BMRB) thought it was ‘a whitewash’ the quality and interpretation of ‘intelligence’ left unanswered.

Remember:

Tony Blair said ‘yes’ to outing Dr David Kelly.

Incidentally Cherie Blair sold a signed copy of the Hutton Report for £400.

Lord Hutton confirmed in 2006 that his brief was narrow and had he been required to investigate the reliability of intelligence (eh! the 45 min claim) then his report would have been ‘seriously delayed’ – whatever!

craig,

i put the question about whether you think the liberal democrats will support reopening the inquiry on dr. kelly’s death not because i was looking for conflict and abuse.

rather, i am interested to what extent your trust in that party has eroded and will erode as a result of their complicity in establishment politics.

cheers,

mbotta

McIntyre, I sense that you know things. Mark, I sense that you also know things.

Angrysoba, likewise, but in a different way.

Who on earth (or in heaven) is ‘Colin’, btw?

I see that the alleged Missourian is back, but that he has adopted a different tone, again, the insinuating, mellower tone. These modulations are interesting and my observations on them are in the spirit of the thread in that one begins to wonder whether, perhaps, some of them might be drug-induced. Cocaine, amphetamines…

My question to all those who know things is this, firstly, do secret agents wear raincoats for a reason?

And secondly, does the SIS sub-contract assassinations and if it does, to whom does it subcontract?

“If the SIS couldn’t stop him reaching the conclusion that Kelly had been murdered they could have quite easily have pointed him in the direction as to who the murderers were.”

Ruth

Yes, that’s what I wondered while reading Baker’s book. I wondered whether he was deliberately misled to some extent, sent off the trail. The role of the US spy, Mai Pederson in the whole saga seems particularly intriguing. She seems to pop up, sing for a little, then go back undercover, or wherever it is spies go when they’re not wearing false moustaches, carrying tennis rackets and assassinating people with blow-pipes in hotel suites.

Larry: “Not surprised that you get your funding from ragheads,”

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

“Ragheads”?

“I put it to you that you’re fabricating the idea that you had any ‘compelling reasons’ whatsoever.”

It’s not worth the effort trying to convince you on that so believe what you like, Colin.

“I’m not interested in his interpretations. I’m only interested in the facts/events. What anomalies do you have in mind?”

For example, slashing the ulnar artery is an unusual thing to do. That makes it something of an anomaly. However, it is not unheard of. Other people have cut their ulnar artery and bled out.

“Why would you think it at all strange or amusing that anyone would say Larry wrote that blog, or came from there? Throwing in “Colin” changes nothing. What do you know about Larry, or BlameBush, that caused you to be ‘gobsmacked’ when I said that it was his blog? Why would anyone be ‘gobsmacked’?”

It’s funny because it is so extremely tenuous I thought you were mocking the conspiratorial mindset. You seem to have come to the conclusion that “Larry” is “Larry Chomstein” purely on the basis that they’re both called Larry. Is there any other reason for believing they are the same people?

Mark, “My wife’s brother has tried to commit suicide 6 times over a period of twenty years, by O/D ing and all these attempts had been preceded by a loss of self esteem, hopelessness and cries for help that family and close friends had ignored!”

Well, I’m sorry to hear that, but this is anecdotal it doesn’t mean that people don’t commit suicide unless they have tried it a number of times already. The Tory MP who threw himself under a train earlier this month hadn’t attempted suicide before, as far as I know, but he had felt humiliated at work and become depressed about it. In Japan every year, 2000 people throw themselves under trains almost always due to work-related problems and feelings of humiliation.

“Depression does run in the family but has been remarkably reduced by a new family of serotonin reuptake inhibitors.”

I don’t understand the relevance. Are you condeding he may have had a hereditary disposition towards depression? If so, was he on these serotonin reuptake inhibitors? If not, why is this relevant?

“David Kelly was not in this category, in fact his close friends commented his was upbeat, had found joy in a new faith and was an active participant in that faith.”

Two things here.

1.) He most certainly wasn’t described by his wife on the day he died as “upbeat”. In fact wasn’t he described as being devestated?

2.) I think people finding “new faiths” is great and all that but surely it could also be a sign of a insecurity or someone psychologically restless.

“I believe David had been scared, much like Robin Cook; why would he have mentioned, ” “dark actors playing games” and being found “dead in the woods?” ”

Like Robin Cook? This is another problem I had with Norman Baker. His presentation is very dishonest when he clearly wants to imply to his readers that Robin Cook had been murdered up a mountain. He says Cook had published an article and died suddenly while hiking shortly after. If you flip to the notes in Baker’s book you’ll find the article was dated more than one year before Cook died of a heart attack while hiking with his wife. There is no honest way in which it can be said to be “shortly after”.

And “dark actors” isn’t much help if you are looking at facts rather than interpretations.

“Tony Blair said ‘yes’ to outing Dr David Kelly.”

How does it make sense for him to out David Kelly only to have him murdered?

Angrysoba,

I doubt that Larry is kidding you. Whoever he is, he is utterly unpleasant, as I have been saying for ages. People associate you with him because you tend to argue in the same directions, but I suspect that he does so for reasons entirely different from your own.

Yes, this is racism. Larry’s repeated denouncements of “antisemitism” and “anti Americanism” are entirely hypocritical. But his personal attacks upon people who comment here are also unacceptable.

The people he should be criticising if he were genuine he leaves almost entirely alone – Apostate and his puppets, and Michael Petek. Instead, he goes for Roderick Russel, Suhayl Saadi, Mark Golding, and of course Craig.

What do you make of someone who attacks the peaceful and the supporters of peace, but has no criticism of the aggressive and those who advocate violence? It reminds me of how certain governments behave.

Angrysoba,

and Dreoilin; I forgot to mention how Larry treated her. Larry has an agenda, and it is directly opposed to what I guess to be your own.

“Who on earth (or in heaven) is ‘Colin’, btw?”

No idea. It appears to be a name he plucked out of thin air.

“It’s not worth the effort trying to convince you on that so believe what you like, Colin”

My name is not Colin, nor have I ever used that name. Nor do I even know anyone of that name to the best of my knowledge.

I find it very odd that something you described as “compelling reasons” turn out to be “Pretty vague ones about the timing etc…” but let’s not get bogged down, shall we? I’ll let you off that one.

“Other people have cut their ulnar artery and bled out.”

No they haven’t. If you have a source, quote it. There are no reports of anyone bleeding out from cutting one ulnar artery. But by all means post them if you have them.

That’s all you can produce after referring to “all the anomalies”?

“You seem to have come to the conclusion that “Larry” is “Larry Chomstein” purely on the basis that they’re both called Larry”

You weren’t reading properly. I assure you I’m not that stupid. Meanwhile Larry becomes more Larry Chomstein every day and he deserves no more of my time. He’s a rank hypocrite, a liar and an Islamophobe.

Angrysober,

You missed my point when I spoke about my brother-in-law. He had a history of depression that was eventually treated for a chemical imbalance. The depression caused him to become suicidal. We do have remarkable resilient bodies and minds able to cope with the most traumatic events – as I witnessed in Iraq.

We learn from Ms Pederson that David relieved stress and pressure by walking and talking. She recalled him saying they were both on an Iraqi hit list, they had to endure constant surveillance and many times laser beams were directed at their bodies. She said, “‘David’s position on the invasion was that it was regrettable but necessary because UN sanctions had failed. He said he was misquoted and his words were twisted and taken out of context.

‘He wasn’t depressed. He was upset. I have taken courses on suicide prevention and he exhibited none of the signs.

‘He was planning for his retirement. He wanted to make more money to provide for his family and he’d had job offers in the States as well as Europe. Also, he was excited that one of his daughters was getting married. He said, “The controversy will blow over.”

She told us David took analgesics to relieve pain in his RIGHT arm which was very weak.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1050919/David-Kellys-closest-female-confidante-COULDNT-killed-himself.html

Well, anyway, I think I’m going to bow out of this discussion. Most of this stuff has been hashed out on other threads including the numbers of suicides from wounds to the ulnar artery. I think the probablities still strongly favour suicide and given what Mark has just said that seems even stronger. David Kelly FAVOURED invasion as “regrettable but necessary” and had even written articles to that effect. There seems no motive for the government to have killed him as he was one of their pawns that they had used against the BBC. I’m sure that whenever anyone attempts suicide out of the blue (as does happen) there will be those who say, “He didn’t seem the type.” The fact that some people DO seem the type exist doesn’t alter that fact. On the other hand we have multiple witnesses who say he was very depressed including Mai Pederson and a number of other colleagues and, importantly, his wife who said she had never seen him so depressed and she was the last person to see him alive. Given the fact that she and the rest of the family have expressed their own belief that it was suicide and that they don’t appreciate further public exposure about his death I think it is a tad sanctimonious of anyone to say they are “doing it for Janice Kelly”.

Anyway, that’s all.

“including the numbers of suicides from wounds to the ulnar artery”

Which don’t exist. And for which you have no references.

Sorry to see you duck again.

Angrysoba: Just before you go, are you really that surprised to find St.Loony making racist comments? You seemed to find much in common before. Is this a case of, “I’m shocked, shocked, to find racism taking place in the tea-bagging institution!”

Angrysober, before you run out the door I want to put on record the David Kelly did not favour invasion of Iraq – hw was a whistle-blower who said the UK government had “sexed up” a dossier on Saddam Hussein’s military capabilities in order to sell the Iraq war which the Labour party championed.

Your snide remark about being sanctimonious reveals your lack of thought for Janice; recognising her suffering which you obviously ignored in my original post is NOT being high-minded. You know nothing of her constant harassment by people such as yourself who make excuses for a Government that knew ‘no leg to stand on’ legally to go to war in Iraq.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7079895/Government-knew-no-leg-to-stand-on-legally-to-go-to-war-in-Iraq.html

“Which don’t exist. And for which you have no references.

Sorry to see you duck again.”

MacIntyre, you tedious fellow. This has been hashed and rehashed numerous times on this blog and I’ve provided links in the past.

Now, I might be willing to look for the link again but only if you first provide a link to back up your claim that no one has ever died from severing their ulnar artery.

Mark, “before you run out the door I want to put on record the David Kelly did not favour invasion of Iraq – hw was a whistle-blower who said the UK government had “sexed up” a dossier on Saddam Hussein’s military capabilities in order to sell the Iraq war which the Labour party championed.”

Mark, do you actually read what you quote and link to? At least from what I understand David Kelly denied ever using the term “sexed-up” saying it wasn’t an expression he would use. (Although I will concede I am wrong if you can show me that).

And in the very article you cite Mai Pedersen’s opinion is here:

“And far from being opposed to the Government’s dossier, she says he was convinced that Saddam lied when he told the UN that he was no longer developing WMDs.

She said: ‘David believed the Iraqis were not being forthcoming during our inspections about their potential for making weapons. If they weren’t up to anything, why did we have to be accompanied by minders? And why were people scared to talk to us?

‘David’s position on the invasion was that it was regrettable but necessary because UN sanctions had failed. He said he was misquoted and his words were twisted and taken out of context.”

There’s also this Guardian article which shows that David Kelly was not opposed to an intervention to rid Iraq of WMDs:

Please actually read it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/aug/31/davidkelly.iraq1

You’ll also remember from Norman Baker’s book that David Kelly believed there was a thirty percent chance that WMDs were in Iraq.

“Your snide remark about being sanctimonious reveals your lack of thought for Janice; recognising her suffering which you obviously ignored in my original post is NOT being high-minded. You know nothing of her constant harassment by people such as yourself who make excuses for a Government that knew ‘no leg to stand on’ legally to go to war in Iraq.”

Oh fuck off! This is exactly what I’m talking about!

What do mean harassment? Who’s doing the bloody harassing here? Have you met her? Have you tried to contact her about the death of her husband?

Where has Janice Kelly ever called for a public inquiry as you so clearly imply she has in this comment:

“Please help and write to your MP for a public inquiry to give Janice closure.”

Has she asked for a public inquiry? Has she asked you to tell people to write to their MP? Does she actually use the word “closure”?

If you can satisfy me on this then fine, I’ll write to my MP. But if you’re exploiting her bereavement for your own ends then really, really do fuck off.

“sexed-up” – I wouldn’t swear to it (and can’t be bothered to go playing with google for references), but my memory’s claiming that the phrase was an artefact of Gilligan’s reporting.

I had found it odd that neither David Kelly’s wife or children have never pursued the death of David kelly. But in my own experience there is very strong evidence to show that government agencies have used and attempted to use my children as a lever to stop sensitive matters being exposed.

Fuck off with your sanctimonious allegations of Islamophobic racism, soba. I used a slightly offensive word to refer to murderous Jihadis (bin Laden’s henchmen), and everybody jumps in saying I’m the bad guy. Jeeeezzz! Just goes to show where the sympathies really lie on this blog.

Thank God we have the US army and the NRA to protect us from these freaks, or you’d all be lying in the gutter with sickles in your chests.

Larry Chomstein?? Who??? Every claim you guys make about me demonstrates your willingness to convince yourselves of any crazy horsecrap just to try to shore up your implausible little fantasies. You’re the biggest gaggle of loons on the net.

People die from falling off chairs, yet you think a stessed-out old man stoked up on a bucketful of co-proxamol with a dodgy heart and clogged arteries who slashed his own wrists had to be murdered by MI6/Mossad, because you can’t think what he might possibly have died from? Oh, please …

Am I a “raghead”, Larry from St Louis? What is a “raghead”, Larry from St Louis? Define “raghead”, Larry from St Louis. Why are you using the word, “raghead”, Larry from St Louis. Are you a “raghead”? Larry from St Louis. You got Angrysoba angry. He was right to be angry. You’re not performing, Larry from St Louis. You’re not performing well, at all. You’re losing it, Larry from St Louis, you’re losing it fast. Perhaps soon, you will need a wet rag, for your head!

You are a lawyer in the USA, so you tell us, and you’ve just referred in writing, in public, to “ragheads”.

Am I a “raghead”, Larry from St Louis? Is Craig a “raghead”? Are we all “ragheads”? All your constructed enemies are “ragheads”, are they? Are you an Anti-Semite, Larry from St Louis? Do you have Anti-Semitic attitudes, Larry from St Louis?

“You’re not performing well, at all. You’re losing it …”

Calm down, freak. Incoherent hypocritical babble like that would get you sedated even in an ayslum.

Your head sounds like it’s full of old rags. Possibly soaked in petrol.

Only kidding! Don’t be so damn touchy, you wordy wimp.

“Am I a “raghead”, Larry from St Louis?”

I don’t know, are you? I reserve the word for crazed Jihadists who despise freedom and democracy and would slaughter themselves and their own people to get their filthy hands on 72 virgins in some imaginary afterlife. Would you do that, Suyahl? If so, you’re a ‘raghead’.

“This has been hashed and rehashed numerous times on this blog and I’ve provided links in the past.”

I’ve read the main David Kelly thread here. You did not provide a link to reports of where anyone had BLED OUT from cutting ONE ULNAR ARTERY. If there is such a thing, provide it, instead of asking me to prove a negative. Or you can just slink off as you were planning to do.

I see ‘Chomstein’ is back, pretending he doesn’t know who ‘Chomstein’ is — despite posting right here that he had been over to BlameBush and ‘noticed’ that it hadn’t been updated since January ’09. Hah! he “noticed”.

What a hypocritical lying racist jerk you are.

“I reserve the word for crazed Jihadists who despise freedom and democracy and would slaughter themselves and their own people to get their filthy hands on 72 virgins in some imaginary afterlife.”

“Thank God we have the US army and the NRA to protect us from these freaks”

Yet he calls it an “implausible little fantasy” to suggest he’s Larry Chomstein. Why is he so afraid to take ownership of his “scholarship” when it reflects his views so perfectly?

Ye Sow, So Shall Ye Reap

“Ye Sow, So Shall Ye Reap”

Shit! Now he’s deploying the magic Bible language! Dodge the thunderbolts!!

Ye talk utter rot, so ye cause much mirth.

Angrysober,

I gave a certain amount of respect for you some time back, but now realise you are an ignorant bastard, hoisted by your own petard. I’ll go so far with you to say I was, like some folk here intimately and sincerely involved and moved by Janice Kelly’s grief and her daughter Rachel’s moving testimony of the hate inflicted during David’s cross examination.

Janice Kelly’s compelling and dignified statements are proof positive to men of standing, lions with loving hearts that David was not ‘driven’ to his death.

You know nothing of this man, a loving father, dedicated to his family and disabled wife. Can you ever imagine the feelings of abandonment of such a punishing verdit of suicide – the anger the self reproach magnified? No I thought not.

Your belittling reminded me of Jack Straw and the MOD; the betrayal and the absence of protection. This is a human story, iconic and deserving of our compassion – which it is – Janice, Rachel and my friends here have trounced the insensate destruction of the Blair government and I am proud to be part of this team.

Come on, the world and its maiden aunt know that “raghead” is a contemporary racist slur used to refer to Arabs in reference to traditional male Arab head-dress. It is not ‘reserved for Jihadists’. ‘Jihadists’ is the term ‘reserved for ‘Jihadists’. It’s been really obvious right from the start – and when was that, January 2010? – that he does hate Arabs, Muslims, whatever, not because of what a tiny minority of them do, not because that tiny minority holds particular political or religious beliefs, but essentially because of who all Arabs and all Muslims are, simply because they are Arab and /or Muslim. I think we should call a spade, a spade. I’ve called for this on a number of occasions. I think if someone hates a group of people because of who they are, they should say so and not pretend. I’m glad that the term has been used in this context, because now it is blindingly obvious.

Larry,

nothing “magic” about *that* biblical quote, is there? Just common sense. Have you heard of common sense?

“Ragheads”, “Towelheads” – aren’t those the terms the Blackwater operatives used about the Iraqis that they shot so liberally?

Oops, Suyahl, did I offend “bin Laden’s buddies” (the people I applied the term to). Of course it’s rude, dickwad! It’s also rude to demolish huge buildings when people are inside.

By the way, I didn’t mean to insult all dickwads there – just you, Suhayl, just you. That’s why it was a particular statement about you and not a generic statement about anyone who may or may not consider themselves a dickwad. See how the logic works?

And butt out, Krypton-balls. I’ve nothing to do with Blackwater whatsoever, so stop trying to slur by association.

He hates all Arabs and all Muslims. He is a racist. But he is also subcontracted. It’s just a job.

When was the first psychedelic music festival, anyone know? Was it the 14-hour Technicolour Dream and/or the UFO Club? Or was it in San Francisco around 1965?

The 13th Floor Elevators: Texan magic. Go to the source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSA0Tckwbk

+digged

Now, here is a fascinating Yale academic and writer, of whose work had not been aware until today. It’s an intriguing area and one which is contested because of power and both recent and long histories.

Anyone who has explored the output of the love courts of Southern France and the poetry of the Sicilian School would be likely to be very interested in her work.

I post this on this thread because I think that one of the aspects, or concepts, of psychedelia is to explore links which have been denied or obscured and yet which are crucial and part of the heart of civilisation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Rosa_Menocal

@Suhayl – you have every right to be angry at racism, but don’t let Larry wind you up. Yes, “ragheads” is a derogatory term for people who wear a turban, and he knows that. He’s been using “Mohammed” emoticons in an attempt to offend Muslims who pose here too. He’s a miserable racist who’s getting increasingly angry – best ignored.

As too are Steelback/Apostate on another thread, but they hate the Jews rather than the Muslims. Same intense racism though. I googled Steelback and found that s/he recently posted on a blog post called ‘Ugly Jews’.

Jon, I agree, he’s a dip stick, a stick shaker and juvenile, at best a sad injury compensation git who prays on peoples misery. ‘ If you ever been injured in an accident’…. ring Larry’s mooom, she knows him weeell and caan get him to do stuff before he had his fried chicken licking breakfast.

Brilliant video Suhayl, but will he get it?

He’s no Southerner, republican or Texan, they would have his balls for on a pancake with talk like that coming from his only orifice.

Congested Larry? go shag the dog

Thanks, folks. You’re right.

The Thirteenth Floor Elevators video link was for all of you (and me, the universe and the neighbour’s dog) – the jug, the jaam, the cup, makes us One. Glad you enjoyed it.

Austin – where the 13th Floor Elevators came from and whence, as legend has it, they had to escape – has been a musical centre for decades – still is – it’s a lovely city, I think the University feeds into that. James Kelman was visiting professor there for a year, a few years ago. It says a lot that he, of all British writers, got invited there.

Austin, the capital of Texas, was where the late Ann Richardson was based as Governor; she was an effective politician and was progressive. She was shamefully (the manipulation of ‘democratic’ politics; a harbinger of Florida chads and the disenfranchisement of black people) unseated by the Bush gang – that’s how George W. got his start, rising from the pit to become the most pathetic American president of modern – or possible of any – times.

S’all in the jug.

What another tastey morsel from your charmed plate Suhayl. I followed the link to this article sort of about songs and tomes before the Inquistion,

http://wordswithoutborders.org/article

/the-culture-of-translation/

/*…

The first article I ever published was on the much-disputed etymology of “troubadour”?”which in fact has a perfectly plausible Arabic etymon, perhaps two. The apparent mystery of where the Proven

Fabulous, sandcrab! Is that article of yours on the web? I’ve read about that etymology somewhere, a long time ago, not on the web though. I’ve definitely read a treatise on it. Something about the root ‘TRB’. Maybe it was your article! Now that would be an truly oceanic coincidence – or even an apt synchronicity.

Even more oddly, this evening I’ve just returned from a meeting with a Jewish writer and what we talked about was precisely this type of nexus – Andalusia, Sepharad, Maimonedes and all that, as well as more modern stuff.

We’re thinking to trying to set up interviews and maybe public discussions like at book festivals, etc. to chat about various streams, confluences and other matters, as they might pertain to (our) fictions. I also promised that I would post him a link to the story below. I hadn’t read your post today, until this moment. History works in mysterious ways…

Here is a link to a novella which you might enjoy – apologies if I’ve already let you know about this, I think I’ve posted it hereabouts before. But since you have a specific interest in such matters, sandcrab, here it is, an attempt, to paraphrase from Menocal, “to evoke the sounds and smells of the vanished libraries, literal and metaphoric”.

http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/ScotLit/ASLS/SWE/TBI/TBIIssue3/TheSpanishHouse.pdf

heehee, no sorry, that was not my article. Those were /*..quotes..*/ from Maria Menocal’s article linked from the wikipee. She has a profile here too:

http://wordswithoutborders.org/

contributor/mara-rosa-menocal/

Im a slow reader Suhayl, but i was thinking about this subject today too, just as a crab dreaming of ancient sands :p no seriously i thought it would be great to learn about, to absorb a bit. To reach into the sonorous deep forgotten past to transcend this military industrial racket.

Also Ive really been meaning to read your work proper, meaning to get a book… but this is great, amazing even! seriously, world + internet + magic author! im beaming at my laptop trying to keep composure. Thanks Suhayl – will read, slowly

Oh yes, I see that now!

Nonetheless,

“A crab dreaming of ancient sands…”

That’s the key.

‘The United States of America’ was another pioneering group of the time, incorporating electronic sounds and other aspects of beauty. The main singer was Dorothy Moscowitz, who had an amazing voice. Nowadays, I read that she writes music for, and teaches music to, children in the Bay Area.

Al Basim, a guitarist from Iraq, made a brilliant psychedelic-jazz-rock album back in 1979-80, entitled ‘Revival’. One can listen to some of it here. Rightly, it is regarded as a classic of the progressive genre, but it defies categorisation. He lives in France nowadays.

http://www.basimmusic.com/albums.php

Not many people know that Pakistan – Lahore and Karachi – had a very active psychedelic music club scene during the late 1960s and early 1970s. As far as I am aware, sadly, this music was not commercially recorded. It’s very important, I feel, that history like this is documented and not allowed to fade into oblivion in the hands of those who would re-write history for their own ends. Some of these musicians are in Pakistan, others, in Canada. UK bands used to tour there. It’s all been air-brushed.

Turkey, of course, had an enormous corpus of psych music. Most of these musicians remain very active. This is widely available.

http://progressive.homestead.com/mogollar.html

I see from a prog. website that Al Basim, the Iraqi musician, would be interested in re-releasing his iconic album, together with a ‘Part Two’ on which he’s been working for years. If anyone’s interested, feel free to contact him via his website. I think this guy ought to be at WOMAD and more.

You may see that over the years, a rumour seemed to do the rounds, insinuating that he was dead – and they got his nationality wrong and called him Iranian! I found all this on the web and I think he’s made sure disclaimers are posted on most of the websites. But they’ve still not removed the fake story!

This is an Iraqi musician who played in a band with American musicians and who recorded an iconic album and he wants to release more music. He ought to use the new technologies and release it on the web. The opportunity nowadays are much greater than ever before for the dissemination of such work.

Kentish Town Mod group, The Action evolved into Mighty Baby and thence into The Habibiyyah. This is the website of their former keyboardist/ flautist/ saxophonist, Ian Abdellateef Whiteman:

http://www.ianwhiteman.com/

The amazing voice and oud playing of Solomon Feldthouse, with David Lindley, in The Kaleidoscope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0aTCZOZR0s

Egyptian Gardens. Belly-dance with a difference. Float fast into the cellar…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YxyZn1X_gM&feature=related

And then with Peter Daltrey up into the sky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGiJNN33-Hw

There were two Kaleidoscopes, you see, one in Britain and the other in California. Mighty Baby were dubbed, ‘Britain’s Grateful Dead’. The guitarist, Martin Stone, also ex-of Savoy Brown and other outfits, is now an antiquarian bookseller in Paris.

Here, for those of you who, like me, at some level have lived doune the rabbit hole for decades, are the Shamen, whom I saw live around 1986 in Edinburgh: Omega Amigo: “My time is yours…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyAfsPl2cQ

Okay, that’s it, folks! Groove on.

Is anyone into wax cylinders? The earliest recorded songs and music is here:

http://www.tinfoil.com/cms-info.htm

It’s makes for fascinating listening and is truly very deep down the rabbit-hole.

hi,

watch the official Doune the Rabbit Hole 2010 Animation Promo here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekjxs_5GG0k