Never! Unless Taliban will come up and say they have converted to Christianity or become apostates.

Apologies for an unrelated message, but this is the best way for me to do it:

Thanks, AnonymoWellWisher, whoever you are, for sending me (how did you get my email – another forum, maybe?) a copy of “Murder in Samarkand”.

When I’ve read it, satisfied myself that it’s not been altered, and converted it to pdf, I’ll make it freely available on t’internet via P2P, uTorrent, etc.

I would still like to hear whether Craig agrees with the proposition, put forward by one of his LESS fanatical disciples, that

“the right to hold beliefs” about [insert anything} should be restricted by [insert anything]

They will not stop this business because Cameron, Clegg, Hague and Fox are scared of Washington’s response, or else they like war. I suspect the former.

The best they can come up with is to look a bit embarrassed and repeat the mantra that the streets of Ealing and Whitehaven are safer from Al Qaeda terrorist gangs because we have a manic suicidal deathwish in Afghanistan to impose a gangster government by force.

The war in Afghanistan is about US colonisation of the Middle East wherever there is oil, gas or the desirability of pipelines. More specifically it is about squeezing Iran militarily and politically like a pimple between US ‘controlled’ Iraq and US ‘controlled’ Afghanistan.

Fat chance of either outcome, and both agendas benefit only the US’ and Israel’s view of the world rather than ours. Nothing to do with NATO either – the closest bit of the North Atlantic is more than four thousand miles away. The only reason we are there is because the UK coalition wants to avoid upsetting Washington DC, and what a price we are paying.

Tony, what would you say if China were to colonise Afghanistan, rip out its mineral resources and kill as many Afghans as it takes to keep the place quiet?

It’s a People’s Republic, a workers’ state, so wouldn’t it be fine and dandy?

I agree it looks like madness on the surface, but I’m sure if we knew the true reasons the US is in Afghanistan, it would make perfect sense. I’m sure if has to do with corporate interests, if nothing else to secure the pipeline and whatever long-term profits the various companies are expecting, just as in Iraq.

The truly amazing thing to me is that the military, both here and in the UK, are still able to get people to volunteer to serve. Are they paying that much?

I know there are plenty of folks dumb enough to believe the party line on “Why we’re over there,” but are they really so willing to throw their lives away, just for a little money?

Craig – in a previous thread you hinted at a back story connecting the “extended leave” for Sherard Cowper-Coles with the sacking of McChrystal.

Iran’s PressTV is now reporting that London retaliated for the removal of Cowper-Coles by passing evidence of McChrystal’s indiscretions to White House officials. Any comment?

I can’t help feeling that this has all been smartly handled by (and in fact rather convenient for) the US government and the media.

Lots of people in the US and UK administrations repeatedly question the rationale for fighting a war in Afghanistan at all. They’re not reported much (maybe a middle page in the Financial Times, or a near-invisible piece in the Independent).

But then someone emerges who suggests that the administration is not being violent enough. The media have shouted about it from the rooftops, and the administration have done what they can to make it a big story.

From now on, I presume, we’ll see lots of stories describing this controversy, rather than the real controversy of why we’re fighting this bloody war at all.

Looks like the Kashmir issue is ratchetting up the scale on both sides of the border, edgy Pakistan is clamping down on free speech whilst India has seen multiple demonstatirons over army killings during the last two weeks.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iGiB9ackLwJ72dXevqDqOxyUI-pAD9GHLBSG0

equally this report shows a gelling of public resolve.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/06/201062013152142755.html

Militants from swat and south Waziristan are said to be regrouping in Punjab, a further indication that Pakistan has got it hands full.

This week also saw the Taliban overunning a Pakistani border post and take 40 of them prisoners, so whatever general Petraeus is planning, he can be assured of over 70 % unpopularity in Pakistan.

The US has succeeded in destabilising central Asia and is continuing to create more poverty, more torture and more terrorims than they ever can deal with. In places where they once had a relationship they are now despised.

But what will the UK input be in this self perpetuating conduct, the undermining of human rights values, how long will we support a shaky coalition that helps to destabilise these areas and cost lives of innocent civilians and soldiers.

‘When will they stop this madness?’

Its ongoing, says the history book on mankind.

“the right to hold beliefs” about [girls not receiving an education] should be restricted by [law, should those beliefs be enacted by the murder of teachers providing an education to girls]

Re. Michael 2:51

Tony, what would you say if China were to colonise Afghanistan, rip out its mineral resources and kill as many Afghans as it takes to keep the place quiet?

What would I say? Pretty much the same as I find myself saying about the US deathwish behaviour in the Middle East where it is assumed everyone will succumb to the US colonial jackboot because they are scared, stupid, corrupt, or expendable.

China has not attempted to colonise Afghanistan, and I imagine China is clever enough to know how damn stupid that would be given the wreckage everywhere of centuries from past attempts by others. So far at least China has a much cleaner record in its dealings with foreign countries whose resources it needs for developing the economy at home.

Tony, Michael is a wind up merchant with a single issue at heart and his comparrisson does not hold water.

It wasn’t China that created ‘policial firebrand islam’ but the CIA and ISI.

Further it is not China conducting all out war in pursuit of a self perpetuating terrorism, all over the world.

China has got an appalling human rights record and many problems, not just in Tibet, but it does not attack sovereign countries for fictious reasons.

Recorded conversation from a cave inside Waziristan:

‘You @@**!!! I told you to attack the COMMERCIAL BANK, not the COCA-COLA PLANT! Where will I get my cold drinks from?’

“Sheikh, there’s Pepsi, and from India I’ve heard of ..”

“*@**!! You’re fired!”

Sky News’ Tim Marshall is making a pathetic attempt to explain the deaths as a seasonal ‘spike’. He remembers the same last year!! WTF. Bit of film showing poppy heads being tended and a few types from the officers’ mess being dragged in for supportive comment.

Solemn tones from Ms Burley on today’s repatriation of three soldiers coinciding with ‘today’s grim news’.

China colonises other countries like a boa constrictor. It doesn’t invade them,it just strangles and absorbs them so subtly that you don’t notice they’re gone and no-one remembers them after they’ve been Sinified.

China has a border with Afghanistan and a surplus population so large they could export it and swamp the locals any time they wanted to.

Craig,

I don’t think the US will “stop this madness”, which means the UK won’t either. No one has ever tried to run a corporate economy with a decreasing flow of hydrocarbons. The system is predicated upon perpetual growth and runs on liquid fuel. War in far away lands is less scary to the powers that be than explaining to the people that the lifestyle they have been encouraged to aspire to cannot be maintained.

Of course it has to stop eventually, securing resources just gains a bit of time. Better to develop a new way of life while we still have options.

Lobbying helps. This recycles my post from 21 June. All that has changed are the numbers of deaths and the growing realisation that the strategy is misconceived.

The 300th death [a few days ago] is a reason to support the proposal for a memorial to the soldiers who have died in Afghanistan (and those yet to die there) which can be seen at the National Portrait Gallery. Steve McQueen’s “Queen and Country” makes photographs of each soldier who has been killed into a sheet of postage stamps.

This is one of the most public ways we have of marking significant events. The convention that stamps should not bear the likeness of anyone living (except the monarch) adds a touch of philatelic irony: only deaths make this memorial to the 21st century Afghan War possible.

Two conditions must, however, be met. The Royal Mail needs to approve the project: add your voice at http://www.artfund.org/queenandcountry. And the war must end. Please send that message to the newly elected Chairs of the following Commons Select Committees:

Defence ?” James Arbuthnot MP Con N E Hampshire arbuthnotj@parliament.uk Tel 020-7219-4649

Foreign Affairs ?” Richard Ottaway MP Con Croydon South ottawayr@parliament.uk Tel 020-7219-6392

International Development ?” Malcolm Bruce MP LibDem Gordon info@malcolmbruce.org.uk Tel 020-7219-6233

Treasury ?” Andrew Tyrie MP Con Chichester tyriea@parliament.uk Tel 020-7219-6371

Policy and budgeting for the rest of the war in Afghanistan should be the subject of reports by all these committees. Ideally their reports will be coordinated, with evidence taken from ministers and officials in all the key departments.

Those who have phoned or emailed any of these four committee chairs can let me know they have done so by emailing me at biodiplomacy@yahoo.co.uk . That would help me and others trying to apply pressure on these committees.

When we know the membership of each committee (still to be voted on by MPs) that will provide further MPs to target with reasoned and non-abusive letters, emails or telephone calls.

Looking at the Taliban-contra fiasco which unfolded while the media focused on the McCrystal train wreck (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062203978.html), the war in Afghanistan still has a long way to run ?” given that the US Administration is indirectly (but quite consciously) funding the “enemy”.

The reasons why they would do this (pipelines, minerals, bases, economic stimulus?) are largely irrelevant; the war will continue mostly because modern democracy is a sham ?” it leaves the public with the capacity to pointlessly howl their opposition, but without any real means to impress their will on the government they sustain. There is popular opposition to the war in every country still involved; but in each of them, the significant political parties appear to have entered into a gentlemen’s agreement ?” to the effect that withdrawal from Afghanistan is never to become an election issue.

A meeting is being held by Stop The War Coalition on Monday evening at Portcullis House. Just wish it wasn’t being held in the Thatcher Room.

http://stopwar.org.uk/images//cut_war_280610.pdf

PS It would be more constructive to work towards getting the war ended and to get the troops out before any more are killed than printing umages on bloody stamps.

@Tony

“So far at least China has a much cleaner record in its dealings with foreign countries whose resources it needs for developing the economy at home.”

That depends what you consider a foreign country. Most Uyghurs and Tibetans would, I think, consider that their nations are occupied and their resources expropriated by their Chinese occupiers. Also, Chinese policy in these areas includes a strong element of inward population transfer from China proper, and preferential treatment for Chinese immigrants. In other words, China is still a colonial empire, albeit a geographically contiguous one.

http://www.uyghuramerican.org/categories/About-Uyghurs/

[section on 'Political Background ']

http://www.freetibet.org/about/resource-extraction

For a sense of what Chinese imperialism is like on the ground, these books are worth reading.

Rebiya Kadeer’s ‘Dragon Fighter’ describes her personal story and the occupation of East Turkestan (the Uyghur name for their homeland).

Palden Gyatso’s ‘Fire Under the Snow’, similarly describes the human rights violations he witnessed, and was subjected to, in occupied Tibet.

‘Lobbying helps’

As long as it is accompanied by £5,000 a day expenses and the promise of well-paid jobs as business advisor/management consultant positions when one leaves parliament.

Then yes, it does help.

Thanks for that paul, I was in no way making out that China is a role model of a country.

Off course it is occupying Tibet and is not allowing Uighurs any Autonomy, but it is in no way spreading its terror into the wider world or can be compared to the US war on terror which is all about control over resources in this world.

Posted by: Paul at June 24, 2010 6:21 PM

Re. China, I think you are on tricky ground speaking as a representative of most Uyghurs and Tibetans defining themselves as under military occupation directly comparable with what has been happening in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine.

China’s bad behaviour as alleged by you hardly registers on the Richter Scale compared with our invasions, occupations, ultra-violent “Shock & Awe”, the various torture scandals, the removal of governments and imposition of puppet regimes, and the scorched earth policy resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

If I try to swallow hard and accept for the sake of this discussion temporarily your model that China is a colonial empire, you make a very relevant point that it is at least geographically contiguous one. Washington DC is 7000 miles from Kabul and there is zero cultural history in common between American society and the Afghans, apart from a few Manhattan taxi-drivers.

Let us get things in perspective. In any case saying that the Chinese are naughty as well hardly absolves us from “two million dead and four million fled”.

I say the anti-war movement is growing tired and maybe needs to re-invent itself.

No good sitting wearing out fingers and thumbs – Clark has put the cards on the table for something different while time allows. The military build-up for war with Iran has begun:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6638568.ece

Soon it may be time for a ‘tea-party’

Who’s in?

Now the reason why lots of occupiers are getting killed this month is really quite simple.

The supinely supportive corporate media report the successful Western offensives during the Autumn months because they’re not actually fighting anyone at that time of year.

You see Afghans have got better things to do at that time-like er…..harvesting,don’t ask me WHAT!

The only people who get killed at these times of the year are civilians because Afghans ARE in civilian mode then-out in their fields etc.

Congratulations to the war-mongers who kill lots of Afghan civilians during the winter because:

(1) There’s nobody else to kill

(2) They can make sure that when the Spring comes there’s will be so many bereaved and angry Afghans that there’ll still be a war on!

Got it?

Yea,it worked exactly the same in ‘Nam.The US used to take a pasting during the Spring and Summer months because that was the only time the N.Vietnamese Army and VC were interested in fighting.

It’s a war orchestrated-even callibrated-by Zionist bankers-shit I didn’t mean to say that……………..

Please delete me,Craig-or I’ll never work again!

Is our Ubersturmfuhrer in Africa currently?

You should be out of here Prostrate!

Zionist bankers?

What running the Fed and the BOE?

Funding both sides in wars-now that’s conspiracy theory getting the better of you!

Bring back Mo Mowlam.She called a spade a spade!

Churchill was the greatest ever Englishman!

Discuss!

On this blog they probably will!

BAAAA….Sheeple!

We need Larry to bring this blog back into the Zionist orbit again.

We’ve got the Zionists declaring the need for an attack on Iran and WW3 and the saps on this blog think the greatest threat to mankind is ………

ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM!

You couldn’t make it up!

Well,at least you couldn’t make it up like the Zionists can anyway!

Oxfam has said the £2000000000000 used to bail out the banks could have ended poverty for 50 years in the third world.

Yet Britain unashamedly spends more military taxes on killing people in Afghanistan who have done us no harm.

With the squeeze getting worse and middle-class Britain ending up poor – how long – how long before the shouts?

No more reckless consumer class – the IMF SDR’s have to be issued – Oh sorry didn’t you know? All part of the Global Central Bank plan ol’ boy – while VAT increases kill off the iPads!

“I agree it looks like madness on the surface, but I’m sure if we knew the true reasons the US is in Afghanistan, it would make perfect sense.”

I agree with Dave. The claimed aims of the operation are so clearly nonsensical or unachievable that we must assume that they are not as stated. Nor can it be protection of the pipeline (my first assumption) as the evidence is stacking up that this is militarily impossible – it looks as if anyone with a couple of occasionally sober pals could blow it up any day of the week. The broader geo-political ideas begin to look more plausible.

War

en.trend.az/regions/world/usa/1707605.html

War

israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=21385

Vronsky,

re. the pipeline. What happens if the US are not there? Doesn’t someone else get to build the pipeline? I think it’s about control.

But there’s also the borders with Iran, and nuclear Pakistan.

Not to mention a border with China, perhaps the ultimate destination.

I’ve linked to that map again below. I don’t know how accurate it is, so I’m open to correction on that. Note how the oil producing area is ringed, by Russia of former USSR states to the north and US bases to the south. With one exception. Iran.

Clark

Apostate: “It’s a war orchestrated-even callibrated-by Zionist bankers-shit I didn’t mean to say that……..”

Absolutely right Apostate, “calibrate” is spelt with only one “l”. Good to see that there are people with standards.

Sorry, messed the link up.

Clark.

While I completely agree with Craig that occupying Afghanistan (or for that matter anywhere in Asia) is absolute madness, it seems that Obama is going into self-destruct overdrive. He was elected, to a great extent, in the hope that he would call a halt to the killing and bring US troops home; but he has done pretty much the opposite.

Yet sacking McChrystal shows he’s not even a competent warmonger. Contrast Abraham Lincoln’s response to what Fletcher Pratt splendidly called “a delegation of old women of both sexes” when they demanded General Grant’s removal on the grounds that he drank. “What brand of whiskey does he drink?” inquired the President. “I must send a barrel of it to my other generals”.

Lincoln could see the only important thing in a real war: find the most competent commander and keep him, supporting him to the hilt and guarding his back against all threats. Strikingly, Obama has done exactly the opposite.

MJ,

I think you’re right and wrong about China. The US probably doesn’t want that fight. They are just sitting put, preventing the oil going where they *don’t* want it to; it’s an essentially negative operation.

They don’t want to open any more holes in that fence, and they’d like to close the hole that is Iran.

The Human race, a violent destructive piece of garbage. Not all, I believe, but most of us. Including me. I am not sure how any of this surprises people, why would it. Maybe that is simply the way we are and will always be.

Kabul circles say the dismissal of US commander was over leaking information including NATO’s connection with the executed leader of the Jundallah terrorist group, Abdolmalek Rigi.

Head of Press TV’s office in Kabul, Mohammad Ruhi, says US commander General Stanley McChrystal was sacked for acknowledging NATO’s connection with the executed leader of the Pakistan-based Jundallah terrorist group, Abdolmalek Rigi.

He dismissed the official reasons for the firing of McChrystal, saying his growing friendship with Afghan President Hamid Karzai and intelligence leaks may have triggered the replacement.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=131827&sectionid=3510203

Ishmael,

the trouble is, aggression is a response to threat. Urges to cooperation *and* competition coexist in all humans.

The current problem with humans is lack of advancement, we are dependent upon limited resources like fossil fuels. If/when humanity become able to satisfy all requirements from the Sun’s immediate output alone, the threat will have been eliminated and the aggression will be redundant.

Didn’t one general talk of being in Afghanistan for “a generation”? Isn’t that just about the timescale for exhausting the hydrocarbons?

It seems only the best security contractors that murder civilians get the lucrative contracts.

Blackwater (Xe) have been awarded a protection contract in Afghanistan worth $120 million according to AP.

I hope they stay out of Kabul else we might witness another ‘Nisoor Square’ massacre.

Since this has essentially become a 911 Truth blog (and, no, Craig, really not wholly at my instigation) and otherwise a paranoid self-important nutjob blog, I’m just wondering …

Why do you nutjobs think that Obama and Rahm Emanuel don’t go anywhere near 911 Truth? They could bury the Republican Party forever if they presented plausible evidence (at trial and otherwise).

This is an easy question for the nutjob right wing in the States, as they’ll also argue that Obama is part of the NWO.

Also, it’s been almost 9 years since 911. Have any of your scientists been able to use thermite (whether superthermite or nanothermite) to burn through a steel column?

There he goes again. This website is an excellent forum for all manner of political discussion. I would recommend it to anyone.

I just did a word search on this thread.

The only one who mentioned 911 here was you.

So Larry, you are the 911 truther.

The reason why you keep bringing it up is because the Zionist brain cell is unable to store information on more than one topic.

So whatever ever anythread is about, your reply is 911.

Ok, you are here to defend Zionism. So if you bring up 911 I’ll bring up Zionism.

And that is what the Afghan disaster is all about. Israel will fight Afghanistan till the last American soldier. And now that the British soldiers have been put under american command, The british will be the cannon fother.

So lets take a vote on it.

Now that the British soldier have been placed under America(Israeli) command will british deaths :

1 Go up?

2 Stay the same?

3 go down?

4 who gives a shit?

Radio 4 just said 79 nato troops dead! They obviously aren’t keeping up

I like that map Clark it reminds me that one day a visionary America leader, might turn all those many US military bases including the secret torture centres into academies.

One day eh?

Let’s return to the subject of Afghanistan. Every violent death there is a tragedy. Therefore the USA and UK should get out ASAP. But they won’t leave, if they think that there is a chance of Al-Qaeda returning. Therefore the Afghan state needs to become capable of adequately guarding he country’s security first, which is a tough one because corruption has to be tackled adequately, and corruption was one of the reasons for the Taleban’s success in the first place. General Petraeus has a difficult job before him, with no guarantee of success. Good luck to him.

With respect Abe the presence of NATO forces in Afghanistan antagonises the situation. This may be difficult to understand since in simple terms America made a brief ‘encounter’ into Afghanistan in 2001 to knockout known training camps (CIA) and ‘look’ and then lose Bin Laden when he was ‘allowed’ to escape from Spin Ghar. The Bush manipulators eyes were on lucrative and strategically important Iraq. Hence Bush remarked he “doesn’t care where Bin Laden is”.

The Taliban commanders are quite capable of booting out foreign (Saudi)fighters (they are very good, resilient fighters) and many are funded by Pakistan’s ISI to prevent India gaining a greater presence in Afghanistan (it already funds separatists in the Pakistani province of Baluchistan) and some say some elements of the Pakistan Taliban which India denies. So I hope from this short essay you can see the situation is more complex with the Afghan Taliban quite simply wanting sharia law, justice and security and an honest government not a puppet of America. Unfortunately they want separation of men and women including at work but realise that women must be educated so change might well arrive in the future.

I am not an expert on Afghanistan – these facts are compressed from the book: “My Life with the Taliban” by Abdul Salam Zaeef

Michael Hastings Interview

http://antiwar.com/radio/2010/06/23/michael-hastings-5/

“We are paying a high price for keeping our country safe, for making our world a safer place, and we should keep asking why we are there and how long we must be there.” David Cameron

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/7843188/David-Cameron-Britain-paying-high-price-in-Afghanistan.html

Totaslly off topic, but I admire this lady’s spirit and think that she is saying things that the planet really does need to reflect on….http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxH5uAK1A3g&feature=player_embedded

Chagos: a wrong to right?

Asked by DanielSimpson on Tuesday, 16 January 2007 12:44:31

I understand your concerns on this general issue. There is ongoing legal action so I don’t want to comment on the legality of all this. But I recognise that there is a moral issue here. We cannot undo any mistakes of the past, but we must do all we can to correct them now.

I recognise the importance of the air base on Diego Garcia, which was used in the recent conflicts in *Afghanistan* and Iraq, and the Gulf War of the early 1990s, and the security concerns that prevent islanders from returning to Diego Garcia itself. But we do need to look at why Islanders are prevented from returning to the outlying islands, which are clearly some distance from the air base.

The Foreign Office say long-term resettlement of the islands is unfeasible. But I don’t want simply to take those claims at face value. I have asked my Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, to investigate this matter thoroughly. Geoffrey will be visiting the Chagossian community in Mauritius (where most were transferred), and meeting diplomatic and humanitarian representatives. He will look at the feasibility of a return, and the conditions in which Chagossians currently live, and report back to me and William Hague.

We will then consider the best way forward. So I don’t want to commit to a Parliamentary motion at this stage.

David Cameron MP

Archived from http://www.webcameron.org.uk

Michael wrote–”China colonises other countries like a boa constrictor. It doesn’t invade them,it just strangles and absorbs them so subtly that you don’t notice they’re gone and no-one remembers them after they’ve been Sinified.”what has China got to do with th emess ina central asia?though china has every right to be concerend about what happens in her neighbours especially dire enemy anglosaxon playing up at door step.

the same argument is put forward about the salvery and british exploitation saying that indian has caste system-let me tell you one thing-indian caste system has never been like slavery and though i have no time at the mommnet no time to write about it-let me tell one fact simple-during the british raj about 400 low income castes weere delcared criminal caste by the british -not by the Indians.Now those castes are given speacial fasvour and quotas in job by govt. and rightly so. so deflecting attention from british atrocity to cite example of china or other country does nto hold water.

I was watching some documentary about Afgan warriors and they asked one of their komandants about who was stronger: Russians or Americans. He aswered in split second: Russians. I remember he said, “we split Russian in to 16 pieces ( i think he said 16) but we gonna split U.S.A in to 50 pieces”. The interview was about 3 or 4 years ago.

War is a necessity for dominant powers.

What else would they do?

If they were merely to sit down on international committees and discuss issues in a rational way, then they wouldn’t be dominant powers anymore.

Eternal war is as much a part of power as economic crises are of the capitalist system itself.

When were we not at one war or another?

War is a necessity for no-one, except maybe those defending their own territory from invaders and occupiers. It is a bad attitude to be so accepting of brutality on this scale.

The US and Israel want respect and power, but for example healthy respect for the father or big brother in a family does not come from wife or child beating. The beaten wife or child will certainly show fear, and I suppose that is respect in a perverse way.

Watching US policy in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, next Iran is like watching a drunk driver in a fast car driving the wrong way down the motorway. Everyone notices the car and gets out of the way if they can. That is not really respect for a dominant power, it is an expression of desire to survive in the short term – probably in the expectation something will stop them further down the road sooner or later. Either a police road-block (in this case the UN, consequently unlikely) or else sooner or later it is inevitable they’ll end up squashed against an oncoming truck, rammed into a bridge or in a ditch.

David Cameron seems happy for the UK to be a front seat passenger in this drunk driver’s car for the excitement of the ride. Time to wake up Dave. The British electorate chose you as leader to make changes, not to be another Blair. Reading the daily list of British Forces’ deaths and mutilations is making the public (across political party allegiances) feel very sick, very sad and very powerless.

Did you hear the Afghan Minister of Mines on Radio 4 today laying out his plans for the extraction of minerals? He cleverly avoided answering questions about corruption and used that NuLabour word ‘transparency’ when saying that that was his object in the negotiations with the ‘investors’.

My question – How can you carry out mining in a war zone?

0735

Afghanistan has an estimated one trillion dollars of mineral wealth, such as gold and lithium used in hi-tech batteries. Afghan Minister of Mines Wahidullah Shahrani has been talking to potential investors.

‘one trillion dollars’

Three trillion dollars.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19784

It is unrelated, but usually my physical observations regards military amovres practise by the RAF is right.

For some days now practise is going on here along the east coast of England, our airforce is preparing for some of other activity. They are practising attacks on surface to air missile bases and high altitude bombing.

Low flying aircraft rise up into the air, turn 180 degrees, roughly 4 miles before target, to observe what they are going to hit and swoop down on it with a follow up evasive action after the strike.

I’m living right next to a markant point, underneath this turning point in the air, all these manouvres are clearly visible.

be prepared.

“Tony, what would you say if China were to colonise Afghanistan, rip out its mineral resources and kill as many Afghans as it takes to keep the place quiet?

It’s a People’s Republic, a workers’ state, so wouldn’t it be fine and dandy?”

Posted by: Michael at June 24, 2010 2:51 PM

Meanwhile:

The largest contract in history of Afghanistan is signed

http://mom.gov.af/index.php?page_id=66

Is anyone counting the Afghan dead?

Anonymous – Re the stated value of the minerals. The $1trillion is the BBC figure that’s 1,000,000,000,000 if I am correct. The other $2 trillion is for kickbacks and bungs.

Anonymous – Re the number of civilian dead. Of course not. We will never know just like in Iraq where the Lancet figure was disputed in favour of the Iraq body count. They are just numbers to the coalition killers.

Ingo – Interesting. Flights of Merlins and Chinooks going overhead here to the SE of London at noon flying east and then returning just before midnight. Also similar reported by a friend from Dartmoor. There is a large combined naval exercise going on reported to be offshore Virginia. But how can we be sure where this fleet is.

2:41:42 PM

When heroin is no longer profitable.

Where did Tony Rogers get that gem? The MoD?

The BBC have now changed their script to say the value of minerals is $3trillion in make-it-up-as-you-go-along style.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/10412085.stm

Tony Rogers,

With respect – that’s ‘war talk’ and has no basis in fact – A Nato spokesman said Iran’s support for the Taliban was “limited”.

The Iranian embassy condemned the report as propaganda defaming Iran. “Iran was the first country to recognise Afghanistan and there is close co-operation and friendship between the two countries. The Taliban are enemies of Iran and have killed a number of Iranian diplomats in Afghanistan,” it said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7474666/Iranian-weapons-seized-in-Afghanistan.html

Unconfirmed reports that a Sudanese arms factory was trying to supply Iranian designed weapons meant for Gaza. The shipment was intercepted by an Israeli air-strike and Israeli intelligence personal were on the ground after the attack. – Who knows where the abandoned weapons ended up – so yes ‘it goes a lot deeper the Afghanistan.’

@Neil Barker at the top of this page.

Do you not understand that copying Craig’s work and spreading it around for free is akin to going round his house and nicking his telly?

It takes a huge amount of effort to write a book, and you get paid a pittance. I am ashamed of you, and appalled at your gall in telling us all what you plan to do.

I assume the wellwisher sent you a properly paid-for book. If Craig wanted to distribute his work for free, he could. I suspect he feels that the “worker is worthy of his hire” and that he deserves to be paid his rightful royalties from his creative work.

I hope you will reconsider torrenting his book. Now I know you might be going to do it, I might feel like dobbing you in to FACT if I find it on a P2P site. OK?

Posted by: at June 25, 2010 10:44 AM Meanwhile:

The largest contract in history of Afghanistan is signed. http://mom.gov.af/index.php?page_id=66

This looks like a better deal than what the West was offering – perpetual war.

How many Afghanis dies in the same period ?

Tony – That deal was signed in 2008 and the minister for mines involved was later ‘resigned’ on grounds of corruption.

The latest incumbent seems to have/have had many irons in the fire.

http://www.mom.gov.af/index.php?page_id=14

This from medialens. John Hilley’s question at the end says it all.

Grown up thinking

Posted by John Hilley on June 25, 2010, 4:47 pm

“An ‘immature’ soldier has been jailed for fleeing his regiment shortly before they were due to take part in one of the bloodiest tours of duty in Afghanistan. Rifleman Lee Moxon was sentenced to two years in a military prison for desertion. The 26-year-old first went missing from 3 Rifles because his girfriend had a miscarriage, a court martial in Colchester, Essex, heard. He returned after five months but fled again because he feared what would happen to him when his regiment went back to war after losing 30 men on the last tour. ‘You were too immature to fact [sic] things sensibly,’ said judge advocate Emma Peters. Moxon admitted one charge of desertion and another of absence.”

Metro, 24 June 2010.

Is it even necessary to state the alternative interpretation of Mr Moxon’s “immature” actions…?

John

Craig: I’m sure you can tell which ISP that thief Neil Barker is coming from. In order to protect yourself from copyright infringement, you need to inform the ISP that Barker has stated an intention to illegally fileshare your work. The publishers might be interested in adding their weight to the request.

Mr ‘Neil Barker’ is a two-track, broken record. He has tended to do two things since he began to contribute posts to this site:

1) Act as a vigorous and imperious advocate of the state of Israel.

2) Constantly taunts Craig for being “a wealthy man” and repeatedly demands, in the caricatured manner of a fanatical ‘fan’, a free copy of Craig’s ‘Samarkand’ book. He’s clearly not at all interested in anything the host of this site may have to say; indeed Neil Barker’s views accord very well with some other ‘contributors’ in being close to the diametrical opposite; he’s simply interested in attacking what Craig Murray represents: dissidence.

Neil Barker has answered none of the questions I put to him. Indeed, he studiously ignores my questions. Does this remind anyone of anyone?

The aim of all of these disruptors is to hobble what is an anti-imperialist website which is not marginalised by the gravitational locus of its overall political worldview.

The rulers are not threatened by the Revolutionary Communist Group (or whatever) writing screeds of perhaps very well-researched anti-imperialist polemic. But they well recognise the potency of an ex-UK ambassador constantly intoning, in a deeply literate and, dare I say, quintessentially British manner:

“Enough torture, enough killing, enough war. Here is how the mechanism works. And here’s what you can do about it”

That is the main reason why this website is the subject of unremitting attack by the likes of ‘Neil Barker’ and others.

I agree with Vronsky (from another recent thread), the pressure being applied is indeed an emanation of what is a very professional operation.

I have attempted to delineate the bounds of this dynamic – and sometimes have been guilty of contributing to the skewed totals which Vronsky very assiduously brought to our attention, though it was in dogged and perhaps futile pursuit of these parameters rather than because of provocation or ego – and I think it is pretty clear to most people here, which posters are likely to be involved.

Would one expect any less than a professional outfit? The rulers are engaged in war as a way of life and a machine for the generation of wealth for the wealthy. They would destroy the world to safeguard that. On reflection, that is exactly what they are doing.

Suhayl: does ‘these parameters’ mean ‘this goal’? And does ‘delineate the bounds of this dynamic’ mean ‘gain an overall view of what is happening’? You might find interesting Sir Ernest Gowers’ “The Complete Plain Words.” An older edition can be read free online:

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/gowerse/complete/index.htm

Thanks, Abe. By “these parameters”, I mean the bounds within which, and the modalities through which, the outfit operates on this site.

Their goals, on the other hand, are clear: to confuse, confound and dissuade. To obscure truth and impede clarity in relation to the nature of imperialism.

I – and I’m sure many others here – know what is happening. I have been attempting to explore exactly how it’s happening and to induce the purveyors and mediators of the dynamic inadvertently to reveal something of their modus operandi.

And thus, constantly all the more effectively to expose them and their likely job descriptions.

But if it’s plain English you’re looking for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE&feature=related

Enjoy.

Neil Barker,

I find it hard to believe you have an electronic copy of Murder in Samarkand as it is not available enywhere in that form.

I made a decision to make “The Catholic Orangemen of Togo” available freely online.

“Murder in Samarkand” is not available freely online and I think you would find Random House (who own Mainstream) get very exercised indeed if you have got a copy and seek to do what you say. They own the rights, not me. I only get a royalty (of 60p per paperback).

Craig

Your book doesn’t need to be available officially online for it to be pirated in the way this guy claims. Whoever supplied it to him could have simply scanned it himself and emailed it. As a writer myself I know how it makes you feel. He’s probably just winding you up, though. It takes a long time to scan a whole book, although plenty of people do it.

Great quote from Washington DC Tuesday. Democratic leader of the House of Representatives Steny Hoyer, Maryland Democrat assessing the prospects for Afghanistan said he had “reticence on the probability of success”.

Here’s another one:

“One would have to express a prudent caution in relation to the materialisation of possible trajectories.”

Lt Gen. Windbag, circa 2010

So is this an unknown known, a known unknown, a unknown unknown or a known known?

Or perhaps, simply, it means, “We’ve lost.”

“I’m saying nowt, and you can’t make me”, I think.

I think von R got an unfair press for that, btw. Horribly expressed, possibly, but it’s important to remember you don’t even know how much you don’t know. I wish he could have realised it earlier.

In the immortal words of Sir Patrick Moore: ‘We just don’t know!’ I suspect that at times readers of this blog would prefer to apply his other immortal utterance: ‘I don’t believe a word of it!’ But that is not my position towards present US or UK politicians concerning the war in Afghanistan. I think General Petraeus has a most difficult task, but not hopeless, provided he can succeed in winning over the leaders of the Pashtun in the Afghan national interest. So let’s wait and see what happens.

Another great Rumsfeld quote:

‘We’re not running out of targets, Afghanistan is.’

When i first heard General Petraeus’s name metioned on the radio, I though I heard “General betray us”. It wouldn’t be the first time for that!

tony rogers wrote-”Our boys are killed with weapons supplied by Iran to people with considerable support in Pakistan and from many Muslims in the UK. This goes a lot deeper than Afghanistan.”

what the hell are your boys doing in afganistan? picknicking? they entered army knwoing what they were in for-afgan war has been for last 9 years. so what do you expect the afgans to do to them welcome with garlands/ to thse foreing bastards who you call your boys? the cowards who bribe taliban not to attack the british troops-such low cowards!

=compared the defeated Taliban in December 2001 to the Mujahidin in 1980, you would conclude that history had closed its books on them irrevocably.

The Mujahedeen brought several advantages to their fight. All Afghan ethnicities opposed the Soviet presence in Afghanistan. They had financial, military and political support from all the Western powers. President Reagan honored them as freedom-fighters. They also had support from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran. In addition, tens of thousands of foreign fighters would join the Afghan mujahidin.

In comparison, Taliban prospects looked quite dismal after their rout in November 2001. Nearly all the factors that favored the Mujahidin worked against the Taliban. Taliban support was confined mostly to one Afghan ethnicity, the Pashtoons. In the United States and its European allies, they faced a more formidable opponent than the Mujahidin did in the Soviet Union.

There was not a single Muslim country that could support the return of the Taliban: the US forbad it. Worst of all, the Pakistani military, partly for lucre and partly under US pressure, threw its forces against the Taliban. Under the circumstances, few Muslim fighters from outside Pakistan have joined the Taliban.

Their goose was cooked: or so it seemed.

Nevertheless, the Taliban defied these odds, and now, some eight years later, they have taken positions in nearly every Afghan province, with shadow governments in most of them.

“I was watching some documentary about Afgan warriors and they asked one of their komandants about who was stronger: Russians or Americans. He aswered in split second: Russians. I remember he said, “we split Russian in to 16 pieces ( i think he said 16) but we gonna split U.S.A in to 50 pieces”. The interview was about 3 or 4 years ago.

“

“When i first heard General Petraeus’s name metioned on the radio, I though I heard “General betray us”. It wouldn’t be the first time for that!”

That’s the best argument I’ve ever read on silly blog.

This ridiculous clown (Cameron not LfStL) assumes that he is going to be in office five years hence. God help us all if he stays that long.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10420911.stm

‘General Betray Us’ is brilliant.

An excellent piece in the New Statesman beautifully written by William Dalrymple with the historical context. Even the part played by the subject of Craig’s next book, Sir Alexander Burnes, is mentioned. It’s a ‘Last Man Standing’ type of piece and as Private Frazer, the undertaker in Dad’s Army used to say ‘We’re doomed’.

Our friend Michael Petek is in the comments!!

http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2010/06/british-afghanistan-government

Yes, Willie D is very good.

“‘General Betray Us’ is brilliant.”

No, it’s not. It was played within five minutes. And moveon.org did a commercial based on those syllables.

William Dalrymple’s article is excellent, as always. Thank you for the link, ‘somebody’. You are, indeed, somebody!

Thanks for the Dalrymple piece, yes.

“A bull who brings his own china shop”. What a glorious description.

Further to my assumption that the Nato forces and respective Governments fighting in Afghanistan are not interested in enabling Afghanistan to help itself.

Here is a report from a coal mine which clearly shows that our aims are to pontificate about moral issues and establishing a security agenda that will enable us to control the Governmet of Afghanmistan in future, not make it independently self sufficient and train its people into abstracting their own riches.

The miners are lacking timber and electrical mechanical tools, they are abstracting coal with pickaxe and shovel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/10413183.stm

The madness goes on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10423780.stm

‘US drone’ kills four in Pakistan border area

Page last updated at 14:55 GMT, Saturday, 26 June 2010 15:55 UK

E-mail this to a friendPrintable version There have been frequent drone attacks in Pakistan’s border area A US missile strike has killed four suspected militants in Pakistan’s tribal region near the Afghan border, Pakistani officials say.

They said the missile, fired by an unmanned drone, had destroyed a house near Miranshah in North Waziristan.

The house had been used by the group of regional Taliban commander Hafiz Gul Bahadur, a security official told the BBC.

He said two more militants had been injured in the attack.

*The US does not generally confirm missile attacks by drones.

* No I bet it doesn’t.

aa

Two Spitfires and a Lancaster flew over just a few minutes ago. A poignant reminder of the time when we were under attack and likely to be occupied ourselves. Made me think.

You have to admire Maya Evans for fighting for this and he tenacity.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/92034

Victory for anti-torture activist

Friday 25 June 2010 by Paddy McGuffin

An anti-war campaigner has won a key High Court victory over the government in her bid to end British involvement in the torture cells of Afghanistan.

Maya Evans brought the case against the state for its role in handing over Taliban suspects to the country’s infamous National Directorate of Security (NDS) in alleged violation of international law.

Ms Evans accused members of the Afghan security service of “practising torture and ill-treatment with impunity.”

Lord Justice Richards and Mr Justice Cranston, sitting in London, said Ms Evans had won “a partial victory,” but it was far from complete as she had not succeeded in her attempt to stop all transfers being made.

Ms Evans’s lawyers told the High Court that detainees handed over to the NDS had suffered beatings, electrocution, sleep deprivation and stress positions and undergone whipping with rubber cables.

a~

She is famous for being the first person arrested and convicted under the new SOCPA legislation in 2005. Her crime – she had rung a bell in Whitehall at the Cenotaph and with another person had read out the names of the dead in Iraq.

“‘General Betray Us’ is brilliant.”

‘No, it’s not. It was played within five minutes. And moveon.org did a commercial based on those syllables.’

Yeah, I remember that moveon.org commercial – it was all the rage in the UK.

For Pete’s sake, Larry, try and be nice. You’ll like it, honestly you will.

Another terrible lingering death like the one that Craig reported on June 21st. but instead of 8 days, this latest casualty took 14 days to die.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10426424.stm

Ghastly.

Cameron, Clegg, Hague and Fox should be forced to sit in turn at the bedsides in Selly Oak for the duration of these agonising deaths.

Posted by: ingo at June 24, 2010 6:27 PM

Posted by: Tony at June 24, 2010 6:51 PM

On Friday, I wrote quite a long post re the above clarifying what I was trying to say. Unfortunately, as re my comment and Craig’s response below, it got dumped apparently irrecoverably in the bit-bucket.

Craig said that if you get a message saying that your post is awaiting moderation and will appear later – it won’t. He does not have moderation turned on. If you see this page your message has not been saved and will be lost.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/06/the_445pm_link_16.html#comments

A short version of what I said was:

- I wasn’t claiming to speak for Tibetan and Uyghurs; only expressing my understanding of what I believe the majority view of those two communities is.

- I wasn’t comparing China and the U.S., only making observations about China. In no way was I intending what I wrote as an apologetic for U.S. actions, which I think have been appalling. I agree with what you were saying about the U.S.

- What I was trying to pointing out was that China’s human rights record is rather worse than you seemed to be suggesting. (But perhaps I misunderstood your intent.)

Just a few remarks;

Firstly thank you Craig, lots of really good info here on your site.

This thing about the ‘Afghan National Army’ being largely Uzbeks and Tajiks. Its almost as if someone ‘wanted’ to create a permanent civil war in Afghanistan, bydividing the country after ‘we’ leave.

There was this group called the ‘Northern Alliance’ a lomng time ago, until its leader Massoud was assassinated. That was largely Uzbeks and Tajiksd wasn’t it? Are ‘they’ trying to recreate it within the Afghan Army to act as a counterweight to the Pashtun influence?

Also, if the Taliban want to control and/or reduce the heroin crop eventually, but ‘we’ don’t, will the Afghan Army be an instrument for that, in keeping the heroin going if the Taliban want to destroy it? After all it does go through Tajikistan and Uzbekistan doesn’t it?

finally, it seems to me that there are only 2 winners in this conflict; the warlords/druglords, and the Russiansd…

I suspect that the Russians may have some part in all this. They have majort influnce in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. I reckon they must have left something behind when they got out in 1989. The US/NATO being stuck in Afghan/Iraq for so long has enabled them to reestablish temselves in the FSU.

I’m sure they are helping Iran to establish itself in Iraq. And it is said they have links to al-Qaeda through rthe FSB.

When ‘we’ leave Afghanistan it will be the Iranians, Russians, Pakistanis, chinese and Indians who will be maneuovering over the spoils. You can forget about extracting mineral wealth until this enormously complex pot has sorted itself out, if ever…

(Sorry about typos; poor eyesight)