Challenger 1 was American flagged,

Gazze was Turkish flagged

plus one Swedish and one Greek flagged ship each, no idea who the sixth boat belongs to

Mae

Thanks. Yet the ship on which people were killed was changed to a useless flag just before.

Correction: there were two Greek flagged ships, not one

That’s true, but it’s been known since the attack and it has not stopped Turkey from demanding consequences – there were 400 plus Turkish citizens onboard, after all. Legally, I’d guess you might have to stick with illegal boarding and maybe kidnap/hijack and excessive use of force on the other vessels as they did not resist and were still physically attacked. Individual lawsuits are also possible given the circumstances.

I didn’t even expect NATO to sit on this at all, I don’t expect anything to change, but at least maybe the people in charge are realising just how dangerous it is to give Israel carte blanche. Even Angela Merkel has come out with some unusually harsh criticism. Given the collective responsibility of the German people for the situation in Israel, this is completely at odds with the position taken normally.

Where is it shown that the RV Rachel Corrie is Irish flagged as when I looked yesterday it was Cambodian flagged?

So far as I know the MV Rachel Corrie is registered in Cambodia, not Ireland, and the Irish warnings against Israel were very clearly formulated w.r.t. harming Irish citizens, rather than hostilities against an Irish-flagged ship.

It seems that most of the useful information about the flag of the Mavi Marmara is in Turkish, which I can’t read. But I read somewhere that her Turkish registration had been changed so that she was only approved for inland waters. Perhaps putting her under a Turkish flag for use in the Mediterranean was impossible for regulatory reasons. In a Wikipedia discussion it was also suggested that she might have been under the Turkish flag in spite of being registered elsewhere. Apparently this is possible for chartered ships, for up to 2 years.

According to the shipping register (which is updated daily) the Mavi Marmara is Turkish flagged. MV Rachel Corrie did not come up on search.

http://e-ships.net/ships.htm

One more good news!

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-06-03-sa-recalls-ambassador-to-israel-following-attack

a possibly connected question is why did the Israelis not wait until the ships had sailed into their (Gazan) waters?

the Israelis must have known the potential consequences of assaulting ships (in a half-arsed but lethal way) on the high seas

so why did they decide to do it that way?

On the channel Four News a couple of nights ago, in a studio interview with an ex-navy security expert, it was said the Mavi Marmara was registered to the Comoros Islands. Then in the next report, from Israel, I’m sure the c4 reporter said the ship was registered to Turkey. I know I thought it very odd at the time.

“why did the Israelis not wait until the ships had sailed into their (Gazan) waters?”

I think because it might bring to attention that Israel has no territorial rights to Gazan waters. Israeli gun ships have been harassing, shooting at Palestinian fishing boats for years. This began not long after natural gas fields were discovered in Gaza’s territorial waters.

More here:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175239/tomgram%3A_noam_chomsky%2C_eyeless_in_gaza

In the other thread, some mentioned Israel has a plan. And this is your answer!

The plan was:

1:Reflag

2:kill

3:scream antisemitism

That’s very interesting, Craig, and, of course, if true, puts a very different angle on the incident.

However, where are your sources on this? There seems to be conflicting information.

FreeGaza themselves declared Mavi Marmara to be Turkish flagged on their press release of 1st June.

http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/press-releases/1195-ships-and-their-flags

“why did the Israelis not wait until the ships had sailed into their (Gazan) waters?”

The above poster may have a point re. exposing the illegitimacy of Israel’s terrorising Gazan waters.

Then again, perhaps it’s misguided to look for any sort of logical motivation at all. Israel seems to have long passed the mark where its actions can be judged by sane, rational standards. Forget Ghadaffi or the ‘mad mullahs’. Israel is the true mad dog of the Middle East. And it’s got nukes.

Is anyone picking up on the fact that none of the false flag operations that you nutters cite were actual false flag operations, while in contrast this is looking like a false flag operation?

Craig, could simply have been a personal decision by the owner – looming tax bill, inspection due, lost paperwork, large repair bill likely, hard times for his business – any one of the myriad small considerations unrelated to this particular voyage that might have persuaded commercially-minded owners to take the step.

Like Monty I’d be interesed in knowing the source for this. Alex pointed out that the shipping register lists the Mavi Marmara as Turkish, as does FreeGaza itself. I can’t help but wonder if this is some hasbara misinformation?

StefZ – “why did the Israelis not wait until the ships had sailed into their (Gazan) waters?”

I’ve been thinking about this as well and my reasoning is that the Isaelis did not want to give up on the tactical advantage of a nighttime raid – i.e passengers sleeping or at the least not very alert, element of surprise (can’t see Zodiacs being deployed) and other visibility problems: on-board cameras incapable of recording as well as in daylight, other ships can’t properly see what’s happening. Plus an Israeli fondness for the nighttime raid coupled with the conviction that it might be criticised per se, but that nobody will do anything about it (they rammed and nearly sunk one of these aid ships last year and no one cared)

On Wikipedia the source for the Mavi Marmara being Comoros flagged is this turkish webpage:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/14896132.asp

The MV Rachel Corrie still appears on e-ships.net under her previous name, Linda. I found her by entering her IMO number 6715281 into the search form. She is shown as under the Cambodian flag.

The Mavi Marmara is in fact shown as under the Turkish flag.

It appears that the information is not necessarily up to date, since the site says: “The information provided by World Shipping Register is based on material carefully collated from the many sources. We are not responsible for any loss or damage caused by the incorrectness of the said information.”

If you look at this website,

the

http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/some-good-background-on-the-mavi-marmara/,

it says Mavim Marmara ‘was sold this year by the state-owned Istanbul Fast Ferries Company for just $1.25m. The ship’s new owners were the Insani Yardim Vakfi (The Foundation of Humanitarian Relief), a Turkish non-governmental organization that focuses on Palestine, and particularly Gaza. Little is known about the group; various reports allege they are Islamists and have close ties to Hamas and al-Qaeda. The group itself strongly denies such ties. What is more likely is that the IHH has some form of backing from Ankara. Turkey is not famed for the strength of its civil society, and it is unlikely that any group would have been able to take such bold steps against Israel without the private support of someone in power.’

I still think the fact that Free Gaza list the ship as being Turkish flagged has to be significant. Surely, if the registration was changed, they would be aware of this? If so, and if the ship is indeed Comoros flagged, they are lying on their website. Would they do this, if it were so easy to prove them wrong?

Whoever was behind the changing of the flag, it still wouldn’t enable the Israelis to go in shooting without thinking about consequences. They killed Turkish citizens, and there’s no way that the Turks will let them get away scot-free. Hopefully the Turks will exert a powerful influence to getting the blockade on Gaza lifted altogether.

The Insani Yardim Vakfi may have been infiltrated by an Israeli informant.

Mavi Marmara has a IMO number of 9005869. This is equivalent to the chassis number or VIN on a car. This does not change when the ship’s name is changed.

On marinetraffic.com it indicates the vessel’s flag was indeed Comoros at the time of the incident.

Vessel’s Name Flag Call Sign Last Reported

MAVI MARMARA Comoros D6FU2 2010-05-31 01:56

MAVI MARMARA Comoros D6FM6 2010-05-22 05:27

MAVI MARMARA Turkey TCBY 2010-05-01 00:41

On digital-seas.com it is listed as Comoros flagged.

Thanks for the research, Monty. It does now appear that the vessel was Comoros flagged. Although this doesn’t change the illegality of the attack, or lessen the horror of the murders, I expect the hasbara machine to be all over this soon. Now the question is, why was the registry changed?

Thanks Craig for these posts during the last days.

Reading this post and the comments makes me just question who to believe. Not you or the commenters, just the information muddle about the ship registrations.

The MV Rachel Corrie with IMO 6715281 is listed as Cambodia flagged both on marinetraffic.com and digital-seas.com.

The photo on wikipedia comes from Free Gaza Org’s Flickr account showing the new name painted above PHNOM PENH with what looks like a very tattered Cambodian flag flying.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/freegaza/4537506480/sizes/l/

I don’t think there’s any dispute over the Rachel Corrie – it’s clear it’s a Cambodian flagged vessel. The case of the Mavi Marmara, however, is much more intriguing.

Christina

The Turkish government can not act, because there is no Turkish government.

Turkey is ruled by its military, and people only have the power to elect front men who shout slogans but have no power to produce laws or anything else.

The actions of Turkey will change when the military elite is removed by the people or

the lower ranks of the army.

The government has no power to remove anyone, because in Turkey it is the military that appoints or removes the government, not the other way around.

@ Christina – there is some doubt over the Rachel Corrie. Craig asserts it is Irish registered.

Where is the MV Rachel Corrie now?

Various reports had her headed to Cyprus, Crete or Turkey.

The curious thing is that she seems to have switched her AIS transponder off 4 days ago when she was leaving Malta.

I believe this is against IMO regulations.

You can track most merchant ships on a Google map on marinetraffic.com via their AIS signals.

Craig – I understand that the Mavi Mamara makes for the most serious case as people were killed but the other boats were also violently attacked and taken over. Several passengers from those other boats describe the Israelis firing before boarding and then using excessive force in taking over the ships even though they did not fight back at all. This is an account from one of the two American flagged ones:

ANN WRIGHT: Well, I saw the attack on the Marmara also of the helicopters coming over, the rappelling down of the soldiers, the sailors, the Zodiac boats coming up the side, the spraying of them. Then, with that, the captain of the Marmara told us to go ahead to try to get as far away as we could, because we had the fastest boat. We were?”as Huwaida very accurately described, our boat was boarded. People were thrown on the deck. Windows were blown out. Flash bangs were used. One of our journalists was hit with something of an electric shock. I don’t know that it was a taser. She doesn’t know, either, yet. One of the women was hit in the face, in the nose, with one of the liquid-filled balls. They were very excessively rough, excessively forceful, on trying to slow down, stop?”actually, we were already stopped. They weren’t stopping us at all. We were already dead in the water, and yet all of this force used on us.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/3/huwaida

I think it’s a mistake to go down the BBC ‘cock-up’ theory path. That the Israeli attack was somehow a ‘mistake’ or a ‘botched’ job, a raid that went badly wrong with tragic consequences to follow… and on and on…

This is a form of diversionary tactic designed to muddy the waters, and soon one is arguing about the tiny details of conflicting versions of the same events, and soon one can’t see the wood for the trees, which is the whole point.

There’s no such thing as a 100% successful military operation, things are always going wrong. Careful plans and strategy often fall apart when confronted with reality on the battlefield. One even calculates for this when on plans an operation.

Israel knew exactly what it was doing and why. Just like when it decided to take a hard line with foreign peace activists and journalists inside Israel and the occupied territories, and began to use snipers to assassinate them. This tactic worked. There are no far, far, fewer foreigners taking part in such activities. Killing them worked and had the desired effect. But not totally.

The day after the attack a young, American, female, artist took part in a demonstration against the massacre, she was fired opon at pointblank range with a teargas canister which hit her in the face, leading to her losing an eye, as yet no American politician has expressed outrage at this dreadful crime.

Israel didn’t just want to stop the flotilla. It wanted to punish those taking part and send a clear and deadly message to others with similar ideas and plans. Try to breach the blockade, try to cross us and our policies, try the Ghandi, Mandela, non-violent route, and we will shoot you down like the dogs we think you are. Non-violence won’t protect you. The is a lesson they wrote in blood, in letters ten feet tall.

The reaction of the United States, and that moron VP Joe Biden, shows that Israel calculated correctly. They are allowed to get away with murder, now, even of foreigners outside Israel, which is nothing new, but the shear, barzen nature of these acts of terrorism, show the are immune and the law is what we say it is.

writerman – I agree with you, sadly. Furthermore, the crackdown internally is now happening exactly as predicted last year – Israeli Arabs arrested for espionage, Israelis who took part in the flotilla will be kept in custody for another week (as the court decided today), the MP who took part attacked in the Knesset, Israeli journalist warned he will be tried for treason for reporting on Israeli atrocities if he steps foot on home soil and so on – consequently the demonstrations in Israel this time were tiny compared to the past. And not because they don’t care but because they don’t dare.

Is this a conspiracy theory too? Isn’t it the sad truth that the vast majority (just look at the way they vote for evidence) of American politicians have been ‘bought’ by Israel, and he who pays the piper ect?

I wonder how secure the ship registration process is. Some time ago, I beleive there were numerous scams at Companies House where company registration details were changed fraudulently by 3rd parties. I believe similar problems exist or used to exist with internet domain name registrations. These fraudulent changes were all made without the real owners being made aware of the updates.

Writerman is correct. The ‘botch’ was also used by the Israelis to explain away their assassinations as ‘botched arrests’

The answer to why not wait until the boats were in Israeli waters is perhaps twofold.

1) the boats were waiting at night outside the Israeli waters, making it a good time to attack them

2) precisely *because* Israel had no right, then they assume that right by force. They will be satisfied that they have now established a precedent that requires nothing more than 3 bad news cycles.

Adorno writes about the same tactic, that the hardest thing for democratically inclined people to deal with was/is when another group simply ignore the rules and take power.

“Is this a conspiracy theory too?”

Yes, probably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0&feature=popt00us0b

Notice how the IDF soldiers doesn’t fire even after he’s been stabbed?

You don’t have to enter Israel waters to reach Gazan waters.

The MV Rachel Corrie was shown on TV news yesterday flying the Irish flag and not the Cambodian flag.

@ Egbert – interesting question you ask.

The Maritime Administration of the Union of Comoros, headed by the Commissioner for Maritime Affairs, whilst being administered by the State’s Ministry of International Transport, has been delegated to with the full operation, development and protection of the Union of Comoros Ships International Registry, worldwide.

The Union of Comoros Ships International Registry is a Bulgarian outfit.

Bulgaria 8000, Bourgas 11, “Vazrzadane” Str.

BULGARIA

8000 Bourgas

11, Vazrazhdane Str.

Tel. +359 56 87 90 51

Fax +359 56 84 05 19

A.O.H. +359 899 14 02 15

Working hours:

Monday – Friday 09.00 – 18.00

e-mail: dptcomoros@abv.bg

PIC: Boyan Bihlyumov

Deputy Commissioner for Maritime Affairs

Full details of provisional registration procedures involving 14 documents are available here:

http://www.bihlyumov.com/registrationprocedures.html

Within 3 months the original documents have to be submitted for the registration to become permanent.

The question is, as Egbert asks, how secure is this process?

Power speaks through the barrel of a gun. The state of Israel is one enormous gun-barrel. They did it because they could. The application of terror requires only that. It is a propaganda exercise designed to terrorise. The media flak, such that its is, will be taken care-of by the usual battalions of lapdogs who work on the web and in the MSM. Woof! Woof! Here, boy, come to heel! Sit!

“Even Angela Merkel has come out with some unusually harsh criticism. Given the collective responsibility of the German people for the situation in Israel, this is completely at odds with the position taken normally.”

Posted by: Mae at June 3, 2010 6:24 PM

Mae, can you explain just how the German people can possibly have collective responsibility for “the situation in Israel”? I’d say the German people have been lied to for the last 100 years. If any country has a responsibilty, collective or otherwise, for the Israel situation it must be Britain, or have I missed something?

scousebilly

Mae’s meaning was perfectly clear. If you are seeking to deny the holocaust you can go away. If not, better explain yourself.

ScouseBilly: The British were pretty much chased out of Israel when a large number of UK military soldiers and officers were blown up by Stern Gang terrorists (Israeli terrorists) in the King David hotel. Incidentally, the Stern Gang invented the car bomb – yet another gift from the Israelis to the world.

Imposing this Zionist nightmare on the Palestinians was definitely the responsibility of the UK and US. We considered them expendable. Clearly, we still do.

4 more rockets were shot today from the Gaza strip toward Israeli civilians. Just for fun.

I wonder why those darn Israelis are so obsessive about checking what’s being shipped to the Gazans.

Craig,

I would never seek to deny the holocaust – far from it.

This accusation of “collective” responsibility has been a narrative that has blighted the collective psyche of two generations of Germans.

For the 12 years ’33-’45 in particular the German people were taken to war on a false prospectus, their media controlled, dissenters marginalised (often permanently) their education system subverted – ironic how history repeats itself.

I feel guilty that my country set the dangerous precedent of undermining International Law and illegally invading Iraq but I know (and knew at the time) that I was lied to by Blair and a cabal throughout Westminster and Whitehall largely aided and abetted by compliant media.

I would, however, object to a poster writing, “given the collective resonsibility of the British people…” in regard to the Iraqi dead. It’s known as stereotyping in psychology, elsewhere as generalisation or blanket prejudice.

As for the situation in Israel, it should never be forgotten that it was Britain that lied to the Arabs (through the unwitting T.E. Lawrence). They were promised Palestine in return for their sacrifice fighting the Ottoman Empire in WWI. The Balfour Declaration broke that promise. And the participants at the meeting prior to that document that I referred to in an earlier posting were Zionists – not simply jews as you put it.

If you think I am anti-semitic, or anti-jewish, you are mistaken. Anti-zionist?Yes, vehemently!! Anti-German? In spite of a relentless diet of post-war propoganda. of course not. I have many German friends (born post-1945) and I don’t see them “collectively” or individually as anything other than human beings. Yes, some admit to guilt for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers but also are fed up with constant reminders and villification.

Of course, it would be wrong to deny or forget what happened, or indeed to think that Nazism doesn’t still affect us today. Are you aware of Walter Funk’s “Europaische WirtschaftsGemeinschaft” (European Economic Community). If not, the speech/lecture was given in Berlin, 1942. Each section practically mirrors each Chapter heading of the Maastrich Treaty. Again, I wouldn’t hold the German people collectively responsible.

I hope that clarifies.

Oh, by the way, ScouseBilly: It goes without saying that had the Germans not done what they did in WW-II, we’d never be faced with this devastating situation right now. They are completely and utterly responsible, in the final analysis, for causing this disaster.

Given the way they behave in Israel, I’d hazzard a guess that if the Germans had brought their clever, industrious Jewish contingent in on the whole Nazi programme, it would have got a whole lot further than it did. After all, the Israelis have shown an enthusiasm for propaganda, genocide and mass concentration camps that would bring a lump to the throat of anyone from the top brass of the Third Reich.

If Adolf could have had his time again, I bet he’d decide to keep Jews on-side, and just go after socialists, communists, intellectuals, gypsies and so on, because Jews had _such_ potential for advancing Nazi policies.

*

Not to say all Jews, of course, just as not all Germans went along enthusiastically with the regime. Just enough of them to appear to be the majority, and to call all the shots.

Joe: _thousands_ of Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis, either by sniper fire (children are well targeted), or by ordinance dropped from the air. About 100:1 deaths, Palestinians to Israelis, in recent years.

Are you equally concerned about who’s supplying these instruments of death to the Israelis? No? Why not?

glenn at June 4, 2010 1:56 AM

In 50 years time, people may well say the mess that is Iraq, in the final analysis is down to the US and Britain.

Do you think your grandchildren should be labelled as being collectively responsible?

In similar vein, how ludicrous, disingenuous and conceited was it for Blair to (collectively) apologise for slavery?

ScouseBilly: To answer you by point.

Please note my distinction between the Germans as a people, and individuals. I don’t see why we have to wait 50 years – we can say right now that the mess in Iraq is entirely down to the US and British. And it’s not the grandchildren, it’s us – me and you – who are responsible. We haven’t done enough, and didn’t do enough, to stop it. We were/are Good Germans.

Grandchildren do not bear the responsibility, but arguably if their country was build upon the backs of others and these grandchildren are benefiting from it, they ought to acknowledge that.

Blair has enough to apologise for personally, more than enough to last several lifetimes. He has no time to apologise on behalf of anyone else.

glenn at June 4, 2010 2:20 AM

Yes, we are responsible for Iraq, but what could we do? I guess you marched too. I was aware that many in the FCO warned against war but it made no difference.

I fell out (at the time) with many friends, colleagues and even family over Iraq. Many of our peers were all too easily swept along with the orchestrated propoganda. I don’t think it was all that different in 30′s Germany.

Let’s face it they virtually had full employment (after the depression and hyper-inflation of the Weimar Republic). Many believed what they were told. Plus ca change….

The only difference that I see is that many of the Nazi’s especially the main players were prosecuted and/or met their deaths. To some extent the German people’s conscience was purged at Nuremberg.

What have we got? Chilcott, the latest in a series of toothless “inquiries”.

“To some extent the German people’s conscience was purged at Nuremberg.”

NO, it wasn’t you fucking asshole. Mass child killing and mass rape were carried out by the Wehrmacht.

Read a fucking book; there are all sorts of books on WWII European history. Maybe next time you won’t so easily walk into your own form of Holocaust denial.

Larry from St. Louis at June 4, 2010 4:18 AM

Note the qualification “to some extent” which you deliberately ignored – the context being we (UK) have done nothing to assuage our conscience or reclaim any sense of honour in the wider world (excepting St Loony, naturally).

You equate the Wehrmacht with the German people. By that logic, the civilians of Dresden, Hamburg etc. deserved the firestorms our bombers inflicted – nice, Larry.

Incidentally, if you knew anything you’d be citing the SS rather than the Wehrmacht but truth isn’t your strong point.

Nighty night, Mr Shill.

This to me just confirms my worst suspicions. That the Israeli government plan to assasainate several activist on the flotilla therefore the mad dash by powers to be to reflag the ship. And to my reasoning also directly implicates sevral governments including the one with the capability to monitor communictions through the NSA a.k.a U.S.

This will only backfire because it confirms intent to murder meaning premediatation.

Larry,

I agree their was a horrible tragedy being the Holocaust. Have you been to the Holocaust Musuem in Washington, D.C. truly tragic. Let’s also not forget the Red Army went on a brutal rampage raping every German woman they could. There are no victors in war. Also let’s not forget the estimated 10,000,000 christian ukranians that were starve to death by the jewish controlled bolshievik revolution. I would call that a Holocaust too. Injustice is never limited to one race or ethnicity but rather to the weak and powerless.

Conrad, did you happen to see the videos? My God, if they just wanted to shoot people, they would have done so with better efficiency.

I think the “peace activists” should have refrained from striking the Israelis, and worked it out.

I was actually going to bring up the westward rape rampage committed by the Russian troops. Without a doubt that happened. But following the denier ScouseBilly’s “argument,” if Zhukov had been hung, then the rapists would have been absolved (to some extent).

Thankfully when the Allied armies came across Germany, they weren’t raping and pillaging or otherwise committing the same crimes that were committed by the Germans and Russians and other Europeans.

You were sounding slightly reasonable, but then you’re a commenter on Craig Murray’s blog, so you really have to reveal yourself to be a hateful nut.

Blaming the deaths of “Christian” Ukrainians on “Jewish” Bolsheviks is a very sick and unnecessary rewrite of history.

Like the others here, you’re simply full of hatred and stupidity.

“If Adolf could have had his time again, I bet he’d decide to keep Jews on-side, and just go after socialists, communists, intellectuals, gypsies and so on, because Jews had _such_ potential for advancing Nazi policies.”

Are you fucking kidding me?

“Not to say all Jews, of course…”

Well, how exceedingly generous! Does your wife know you talk like this?

“Also let’s not forget the estimated 10,000,000 christian ukranians that were starve to death by the jewish controlled bolshievik revolution.”

Oh Christ! The “Bolshevik Jew” is Nazi propaganda.

Did the Bolsheviks contain Jews? Certainly, but many of those were purged and killed by Stalin. Yes, Stalin. Was he a Jew? No, he was an anti-Semite.

The Ukranian famine had nothing to do with persecuting Ukranians for their Christian religion and it was not a “persecution by the Jews” so stop this garbage.

Jesus Fucking Christ!

Why is it people here whine about being tarred as anti-Semites when they so gleefully engage in it?

Larry: “But following the denier ScouseBilly’s “argument,” if Zhukov had been hung, then the rapists would have been absolved (to some extent).”

Defamation and misrepresentation in one sentence. Try reading my post at 1.52am, then explain how exactly I’m a “denier”.

ScouseBilly,

Your “soft” Holocaust denial is noted. You might very well agree that 6 million Jews were killed (although I doubt it) ?” regardless, you’re probably one of those revisionists who, in part, tries to blame the Holocaust on a select few of Germans.

And of course I meant the Wehrmacht. The SS wasn’t the sole culprit in the genocide. Did you happen to catch the Crimes of the Wehrmacht exhibition? I did.

And it wasn’t just the armed forces. The civilian authorities had the Jews declare all of their assets before they came and liquidated them.

I don’t happen to think that “the German people’s conscience was purged” because that weasel Goring took his own life.

ScouseBilly, pretty simple. You deny being a denier. In parallel, it’s a standard tactic for genocidaires to deny attacking their victims.

You wrote above: “For the 12 years ’33-’45 in particular the German people were taken to war on a false prospectus, their media controlled …”

Tell me more! Who was controlling the media?

Larry, now you’re back peddling.

I happen to have some very good orthodox jewish suppliers in my line of business.

These are long standing relationships (over 20 years). They don’t like the zionists either and I can safely say none of them would consider me in the least anti-semitic, let alone a holocaust denier.

Yes, you are right there were atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht and civil servants did indeed “process” the holocaust victims. However, by far the worst offenders were the SS.

We only have to look at Abu Ghraib, or the activities of some Social Services here in the UK to see parallels in modern society involving regular army and civil/public servants.

Anyhow, it is plain wrong to hold Germany’s population in 2010 collectively responsible for the holocaust. That’s not denial.

Larry: “Tell me more! Who was controlling the media?”

I thought you were an expert.

Go look up Goebbels.

Do you know of any anti-Nazi media in Germany at the time?

Do tell, Larry.

ScouseBilly,

“Anyhow, it is plain wrong to hold Germany’s population in 2010 collectively responsible for the holocaust.”

I don’t.

“We only have to look at Abu Ghraib, or the activities of some Social Services here in the UK to see parallels in modern society involving regular army and civil/public servants.”

My God. I agree with you on Abu Ghraib – yes, Charles Graner and his gang committed horrible acts on par with Hamas terrorists or the SS in 1941.

But of course he’s a psychopath who’s doing hard time, and we can all be thankful that those pictures were distributed to the government and the media by people who were disgusted with that conduct.

As to “Social Services” in Britain – I very much doubt that your government is forcing you to fill out a Vermogensverzeichnis, or listing of assets, so that they can come and confiscate them later. I doubt that your government is forcing you to tell on your neighbors, under penalty of law. I doubt that there’s a minority in Britain that is justifiably in fear of liquidation.

But I could be wrong.

Perhaps your best bet is to move to America, where you’re relatively unmolested. Do you have any useful skills?

The Rachel Corrie was Camoodian flagged, it was on a cargo run between the baltic and Dundalk in Ireland, where the ship was subsequently arrested initally for minor safety breaches on board. These were rectified with the help of the harbour master, but the owners refused to pay for an inspection that would have ended the problem. Soon it became clear that the crew had been owed back pay and that they had been overworked, thus the involvment of Ken Flemming.

The vessel was sold at auction in the Fairways hotel in Dundalk to the present owners, the funds generated helped to pay crew back pay.

Craig – Sorry to kick this discussion of like that, I should have known considering how hot tempers are running on these issues.

ScouseBilly – I am Eastgerman. My history lessons, in contrast to Westgerman ones, included in great detail the atrocities committed during WWII. Aged 14, all Eastgerman children were taken to the museums at former concentration camps, shown all the exhibits, met holocaust survivors and made to watch the original footage taken by the Allied forces when they liberated these camps. In my class it was the boys who threw up, but I can still remember this day vividly, I’ll never forget what I saw.

I do not think I am personally responsible. I was attacked as a teenager by gypsies whose grandparents were killed by the Nazis and was defended by other gypsies in the group who did not agree that it was MY fault. During D-Day in 1995 I got some abuse for being German even in the UK, and I banned one guy from my club for being abusive, although I respected his opinion and would have been happy to listen had he remained respectful.

Of course not everyone supported Hitler, a lot of people disagreed with his policies, but propaganda – as we have seen again this week – is a powerful tool for mind and crowd control, and the Nazis truly mastered the art of bending reality with their words. The brainwashing continued in the GDR, albeit in a different direction, and I am still shaking it off today.

A lot of people had no idea, and a lot knew some things but chose to go along with it. The resistance was certainly getting the information out and many people simply didn’t think their goevernment could be capable of such things, “surely”, so it was reasoned, “it can’t be true, we would never do that”.

In my family, one side were members of the KPD, the other side were in love with Hitler. My gran, who kept telling me till the end that Hitler did good things, even trained as a pilot as a girl, a victory for women’s rights I find hard to be proud of given the circumstances.

I hold us collectively responsible for creating the circumstances that have led to the situation in Palestine and Isreal. After waking up to what goes on there last year, I have had many discussions about the new German culpability in allowing this to go on but most Germans feel that maybe in a few generations, maybe in a hundred years or so, we can start helping the Palestinians properly but not know.

I disagree. I think we have a responsibilty NOW to step in. The holocaust nearly exterminated the Jewish people and that, IMO, is the root cause for their insecurity and their feeling of entitlement to extreme measures of “self-defense”. But if we keep looking on, we, too, will be responsible for what happens to the Palestinian people and I for one do not want or need that on my conscience.

It seems that the Rache Corrie is sailing under the Cambodian flag

http://www.vesseltracker.com/en/Ships/Linda-6715281.html

Larry from St Louis:

Does the death of 500,000+ Iraqis (which Albright charming said was a price worth paying) constitute genocide? If not, how many Arabs have to be killed for it to constitute genocide?

The question in all this that I can’t make sense of is why the Israeli’s attacked in international waters. Presumably if they had waited then they would have a greater claim to legitimacy and the international response would have been much less harsh? What did they gain by not waiting a few hours?

“What did they gain by not waiting a few hours?”

As has been said, cover of darkness and the element of surprise.

Or it could just be that the Israelis are stark raving mad. Personally, I go for the latter option.

Was there any hint of false flag?

Yes Yes Yes.

the very first video released of the attack shows it clearly.

“Does the death of 500,000+ Iraqis (which Albright charming said was a price worth paying) constitute genocide? If not, how many Arabs have to be killed for it to constitute genocide?”

You are clearly ignorant about the meaning of the word “genocide”.

Take a lie down.

Uber-Zionists never sleep! The battalions of mendacity are on full alert right now in cyberspace and across the media. But the Big Lie doesn’t work any more.

Hello AngrySoba. You asked, “Well, how exceedingly generous! Does your wife know you talk like this?”

As a matter of fact, she’s the one who suggested that the Israelis would have been extremely enthusiastic supporters of the Nazis, had they been given the chance.

You might be confusing authors – I wrote nothing about Ukrainians or Bolsheviks.

How, exactly, is it “anti-Semitic” to notice the fondness of Israelis for what passed for fun with the Nazis?

How about when Nazi soldiers stopped a couple of Jews, and made the Jew play his fiddle for their amusement, before finally allowing them through the checkpoint. That was a humiliating, disgusting way for the Germans to have behaved, and… Oh – sorry, I got that wrong. It was _Israeli_ soldiers who stopped _Palestinian_ travelers, and made the Palestinian play his fiddle for their amusement!

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/507650-post1.html

Is such an observation race hatred towards Jews? Apparently, for some reason, you wish that it was – or at least, that it was regarded as such.

The ship’s Comoran registry is also confirmed by the international web site Equasis (http://www.equasis.org):

IMO number: 9005869

Name of ship: MAVI MARMARA (during 1994)

Call Sign: D6FU2

MMSI: 616952000

Gross tonnage: 4142 (during 1994)

DWT: 525

Type of ship: Passenger Ship (during 1993)

Year of build: 1994

Flag: Comoros (since 01-05-2010)

Status of ship: In Service/Commission (since 30-12-1994)

Last update: 01-06-2010

The ship’s manager and owner are both listed as:

IHH INSAN HAK VE HURRIYETLERI Taylasan Sokak 3, Kirmasti Mah, Fatih, 34083 Istanbul, Turkey.

Turk Loydu is listed as the ship’s classification society but according to the Turk Loydu web site (http://www.turkloydu.org) the ship’s class was suspended on 1 May because of an overdue survey. On that day she was still listed as being registered in Turkey. It is possible that the ship was re-flagged in order to avoid said survey.

http://www.memritv.org/

Interesting snippet in the WSJ about why the Mavi Marmara was re-flagged.

QUOTE “The IHH bought the Mavi Marmara, a disused ferry, several months ago from Turkey’s state ferry company for about $1.15 million, both parties say.

Mr. Faruq [a 46-year-old member of the IHH board] dismissed speculation in the Israeli media that the IHH may have been a proxy for the Turkish government in seeking to pressure Israel. He noted that when the group bought the ship, the government reregistered it so that it wasn’t licensed for use in open seas. That, he said, forced the IHH to register the ship under a new flag in the Comoros Islands. Turkey has also denied it gave the charity any instructions.” ENDQUOTE

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703961204575280791438239242.html

It is interesting that a long article in today’s Observer twice mentions the Mavi Marmara being Turkish flagged at time of attack!

Come on Observer – keep up!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-flotilla-attack-israel-turkey

I hate to burst everyone’s bubble, but in fact Israel DOES have rights over the Gaza waters.

The problem is that in the Oslo Accords (both 1 & 2) and all others, the Palestinian Authority ceded control of border crossings, the coast, and airspace to Israel until such time as a permanent and final treaty agreement with regards to the formation of a Palestinian state, rather than a Palestinian Authority came into being.

Now Hamas rejects this, but because it is an international obligation signed by the representatives of both Israel and Palestine at the time of it’s signing, it still stands. Hamas would have to use some internal constitutional measure in keeping with Palestinian internal law to remove itself from the agreement, but since Hamas seized power and ejected half of the elected government from Gaza in 2007, because while it won the majority vote, it did not have the parliamentary seats to form a majority government. So what we have is half of the government of Gaza in exile because Hamas threw them out because it opposes Democratic governments by it’s charter.

So we have another legal problem. While Hamas won the most votes in 2006, it does not constitute the entire government, and while they will not allow Fatah representatives to take their seats in the legislature, you cannot have any constitutional or other VOTE to reject the Oslo and other agreements made by previous governments.

This entire thing of course is being ignored by the media, and other groups largely because it is an “inconvenient truth”

If what Israel did to the Mavi Marmara and her passengers is not a problem for Nato, it might be for the ICC…

Institute for Public Accuracy – Washington, June 07

1 – John Quigley, professor of int’l law at Ohio State University, said today: “Contrary to what many are claiming, including the New York Times in a front-page article on the Gaza flotilla, the Mavi Marmara, the vessel on which deaths occurred, is not Turkish-flagged. Although formerly Turkish-flagged, the Mavi Marmara was Comoros-flagged by the time of last week’s incident. The point may be of some significance, because Comoros, unlike Turkey, is a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The Court has jurisdiction over war crimes committed on vessels registered in a state that is party to the Rome Statute.”

2 – Francis Boyle, professor of int’l law at the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, said today: “The highest level officials of the Israeli government who ordered the attack upon the Mavi Marmara can be prosecuted by the International Criminal Court: Prime Minister Netanyahu, Defense Minister Barak, Foreign Minister Lieberman, General Ashkenazi and the rest of the Israeli council of seven ministers who ordered this criminal attack. Furthermore, under the ICC’s Rome Statute any state party has the power to demand that these Israeli governmental officials be prosecuted.”

- http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/06/07-13

your assumption that the israeli action on high seas is against the int’l law is completely incorrect and based on emotions against israel rather then on legal points. suggest you to check with maritime law firm in London who are dealing with such law.

the flag was changed probabely in order not to involved the turkish navy. Arduan the turkish P.M. KNEW VERY WELL THAT HE IS GOING AGAINST THE INT’L MARITIME LAW and most probabely he realised what the results may be, after all he authorized and may be even orgenized this flottila, and he did not want to go to far so to involved his navy in case a turkish flagged ship is stopped.

the flottila support the HAMAS group which is terrorist group recognized as such all around the world except by turkey, syria and iran, and you so called PEACE KEEPERS are either naives or knoladgeless, hence you are led to completely the wrong direction.

Article 88 of the Law of the Sea Treaty affirms that the ‘high seas shall be reserved for peaceful purposes,’ with Article 89 stating further that ‘no State may validly purport to subject any part of the high seas to its sovereignty.’ The crimes that Israel committed during its assault on the vessels and civilian passengers of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla fall firmly within the category of ‘high crimes.’ The assault must be defined as a ‘crime against the peace’ and a ‘crime against humanity’ as Israel subjected ‘part of the high seas to its sovereignty’ in an attack on unarmed civilian vessels.

See also: http://www.scribd.com/doc/32579575/The-Legal-Framework

PM of Turkey is organised eveything like that. and also 9 murder