The Stew of Corruption

by craig on November 5, 2010 10:18 am in UK Policy

British democracy has lost its meaning. The political and economic system has come to serve the interests of a tiny elite, vastly wealthier than the run of the population, operating through corporate control. The state itself exists to serve the interests of these corporations, guided by a political class largely devoid of ideological belief and preoccupied with building their own careers and securing their own finances.

A bloated state sector is abused and mikled by a new class of massively overpaid public secotr managers in every area of public provision – university, school and hospital administration, all executive branches of local government, housing associations and other arms length bodies. All provide high six figure salaries to those at the top of a bloated bureaucratic establishment. The “left”, insofar as it exists, represents only these state sector vested interests.

These people decide where the cuts fall, and they will not fall where they should – on them. They will fall largely on the services ordinary people need.

Meanwhile we are not all in this together. The Vodafone saga only lifts the lid for the merest peek at the way the corporate sector avoids paying its share, hiding behind Luxembourg or Cayman tax loopholes and conflicts between international jurisdictions – with which our well provided politicians are very happy. The often excellent Sunny Hundal provides a calm analysis of the Vodafone case here:

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/11/01/why-are-there-protests-against-vodafone-a-simple-guide/#more-18963

Let me tell you something else about Vodafone. Vodafone took over Ghana Telecom three years ago. They paid an astonishingly low price for it – 1.2 billion dollars, which is less than the value of just the real estate GT owned. The value of the business was much higher than that, and there was a substantively higher opening bid from France Telecom.

The extraordinary thing was the enormous pressure which the British government put on Ghana to sell this valuable asset to Vodafone so cheaply. High Commissioner Nick Westcott and Deputy High Commissioner Menna Rawlings were both actively involved, with FCO minister Lord Malloch Brown pressurising President Kuffour directly, with all the weight of DFID’s substantial annual subvention to Ghana behind him.

What is the point of DFID giving taxpayer money to Ghana if we are costing the country money through participating in the commercial rape of its national assets?

And why exactly was it a major British interest that Vodafone – whose Board meets in Germany and which pays its meagre taxes in Luxembourg – should get Ghana Telecom, as opposed to France Telecom or another company? Was privatisation at this time the best thing for Ghana at all?

This Vodafone episode offers another little glimpse into the way that corporations like Vodafone twist politicians like Mark Malloch Brown around their little fingers. It mioght be interesting to look at his consultancies and commercial interests now he is out of office.

BAE is of course the example of this par excellence. Massive corruption and paying of bribes in Saudi Arabia, Tanzania end elsewhere, but prosecution was halted by Tony Blair “In the National Interest”. BAE of course was funnelling money straight into New Labour bagmen’s pockets, as well as offering positions to senior civil servants through the revolving door. Doubtless they are now doing the same for the Tories – perhaps even some Lib Dems.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/01/jack_straws_cor.html

It is therefore unsurprising the BAE were able to write themselves contracts for aircraft carriers which were impossible to cancel and that their New Labour acolytes were prepared to sign such contracts. It is, nonetheless, disgusting. Just as it is disgusting that there is no attempt whatever by the coaliton to query or remedy the situation. There is no contract in the UK which cannot be cancelled by primary legislation.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23894666-bae-letter-was-gun-to-head-of-ministers-over-aircraft-carriers-deal.do

Meanwhile, bankers’ bonus season is upon us again and these facilitators of trade and manufacture are again set to award themselves tens of billions of pounds to swell the already huge bank accounts of a select few, whose lifestyle and continued employment is being subsidised by every single person in the UK with 8% of their income. This was because the system which rewards those bankers so vastly is fundamentally unsound and largely unnecessary. Money unlinked to trade or manufacture cannot create infinite value; that should have been known since the South Sea Bubble.

Yet even this most extreme example of government being used to serve the interests of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of everyone else, has not been enough to stir any substantial response from a stupoured, x-factored population, dreaming only of easy routes to personal riches, which they have a chance in a million of achieving.

Conventional politics appears to have become irretrievably part pf the malaise rather than offering any hope for a cure. But political activity outwith the mainstream is stifled by a bought media.

I see no hope.

481 Comments

  1. Johan van Rooyen

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:40 am

    Very lucid! The only possible fix will be through a total collapse of the old system. Capitalism must die before there can be any hope. ;)

  2. Sylvia

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:45 am

    I’m afraid you are correct, politicians are bought and sold and elections do not matter. Everything is for the elite and we are all doomed to go back to the master and servant era.

  3. kathz

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:53 am

    I don’t think you should blame the electorate. Without political honesty in campaigning how can the voters act? see http://freecommonwealth.blogspot.com/2010/11/and-yet-you-say-this-is-righteous.html

    The government capacity to ignore public action, as with the demonstrations against the Iraq war, doesn’t help. And MPs are not always honest about constituents’ actions. I was fascinated to see that our new tory MP claimed that minimal protests about the privatisation of the post office meant voters were happy about it during the course of a parliamentary debate. Simultaneously she complained in the local paper about the avalanche of postcards she had received objecting to the proposals.

  4. Davie Park

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:55 am

    What is the point of DFID giving taxpayer money to Ghana if we are costing the country money through participating in the commercial rape of its national assets?

    Same as it ever was.

    The UK will save us from exploitative globalisation doncha know.

  5. Vronsky

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:58 am

    “I see no hope.”

    That’s my view – until I see someone else saying it, and then I want to disagree. Is hope really necessary? I’m sure the elite would want us to think so – to regard it as a sort of fuel with out which we can’t move. You can fight because you consider it necessary. Sun Tzu was too pragmatic – probably the unwinnable battles are the most important to join. Said Vaclav Havel:

    “Evil will remain with us, no one will ever eliminate human suffering, the political arena will always attract irresponsible and ambitious adventurers and charlatans. And man will not stop destroying the world. In this regard, I have no illusions. Neither I nor anyone else will ever win this war once and for all. At the very most, we can win a battle or two – and not even that is certain. Yet I still think it makes sense to wage this war persistently. This must be done on principle, because it is the right thing to do.”

  6. Bumpkin

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:59 am

    Unfortunately the bankers are gambling on asset bubbles they create.

    It is time to purge the parasites.

  7. somebody

    5 Nov, 2010 - 12:12 pm

    Our so-called democracy is an illusion. It probably always has been.

  8. Ishmael

    5 Nov, 2010 - 12:14 pm

    After 2nd paragraph, Stalinism, or Communism entered my mind.They don’t try and hide the contempt anymore, they did in the past.

  9. Clark

    5 Nov, 2010 - 12:15 pm

    Craig,

    cultivate your hope. Avaaz have a campaign against corporate corruption and lobbying in the EU:

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_lobby_rules/

    and Greenpeace are making “adverts” like this:

    http://www.green.tv/greenpeace_alieninvasion?set_location=en

    Human nature is the same mix as ever it was. The balance of power has swung towards the elite. They are pushing in that direction with all their might because they are scared. As they see the increasing problems in the monetary system, their response is to grab as much of that money as they can, apparently undeterred that unrestricted credit steadily diminishes the value of that money.

    Humanity has bigger problems than ever before, but also more powerful tools than ever before – it’s anyones guess as to how it’ll all play out. All we can do is try our best, and to me it seem that you always do that.

    Do nurture your hope Craig, because you help to support other people’s hope, including mine.

  10. StefZ

    5 Nov, 2010 - 12:38 pm

    The majority of people in the West have had it relatively good in recent years and were bought off easily enough with some cheap tat and the illusion of rising asset values

    They have grown complacent

    There’s only one cure for complacency as far as I’m aware

    As far as hope is concerned, as long as you’ve been true to yourself and done the best that you can, sod it

  11. StefZ

    5 Nov, 2010 - 12:48 pm

    or, to put it another way, does someone only do what they believe to be the Right Thing because they expect some chocolate biscuits and a pat on the back at the end of it?

    Or do they do it because they believe it is the Right Thing to do?

    People who rely on hope to get by run the risk of losing it

  12. Ruth

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:08 pm

    Craig, I can’t see why you say there’s no hope. You’re proactive. You run this brilliant blog which always appears to be under attack from the state. Your blog’s so important in educating and drawing people to discuss what’s going on so they can start to realise that the state doesn’t protect them and that their country is manipulated to appear as a democracy. Most probably people will do nothing about it until they suffer economic hardship. And then who knows what’ll happen.

  13. Anonymous

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:13 pm

    just a query, bet you wearnt moaning about your (bloated?)salary working for the foreign office in UZbekistan whilst you were in post?

    didnt think so, but I actually agree with your comments, however craig im against the ‘for profit’ and errosion of staff protections that comes from outsourcing.

    oh and if you are gonna outsource have the gumption to put in pace something like http://www.taf.org. Mr Cameron said he was going to serioulsy look at taking this fordward…I say bollox

  14. Ruth

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:19 pm

    Scotland has just inceased state power over the population by giving judges the right to not even consider a reference from the SCCRC if it’s not in the interest of justice. Hence, the judges are being asked to judge themselves. If an appeal involves sensitive evidence such as the Lockerbie appeal the appellant is scuppered.

  15. Polo

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:23 pm

    A very good reminder on an Irish blog this morning.

    http://puesoccurrences.wordpress.com/2010/11/05/south-sea-bubble/

  16. James Chater

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:29 pm

    Bread and circuses. That’s how Nero kept the plebs tame and it is how our current masters keep us tame (cheap supermarket food, The Sun and TV). But what happens when the “bread” becomes impossibly expensive? Revolution? dictatorship? anarchy?

    I am afraid that, as things stand at the moment, people are not suffering enough for radical change to be possible. Hunger drove the French and Russian Revolutions; it will drive the next one. But will things be better as a result? In France and Russia they weren’t, at least not for several decades.

  17. Dunc

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:36 pm

    “The political and economic system has come to serve the interests of a tiny elite”

    You say that like it was ever any different. “British Democracy” was *always* principally about protecting the interests of a tiny elite against the rest of us.

    There was *never* any hope.

  18. writerman

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:43 pm

    Dear Craig,

    I must really get hold of the cocktail of meds you’re on. It reminds me of being strapped to the front of the Flying Scotsman on a wild ride from London to Glasgow at breakneck speed, as in the old black ‘n’ white film they used to show on the telly. Or seeing Planet of the Apes high on Purple Haze, oh, those were the days!

    Hope. Whatever happened to it? Hope springs eternal. It has to. That’s why we call it hope. Though one shouldn’t confuse it with Obama’s version. Which is really hype and being short-changed.

    Even though you’re a “Liberal” you’re a damn fine one, and not nearly as obtuse as most. In fact your intelligence and clear-sightedness are more of a blessing than a curse. Which is something. Which is a great deal in fact. You seem unable to look away from the truth when you see it, no matter what the consequences. This is both a rare, valuable, and profoundly dangerous quality. It usually has price. An extraordinarily high price. The price, or curse, of insight.

    I used to know lots of Liberals in the old days. They were mostly great fun, and on numerous issues far, far, better than Labour or the Conservatives. But then they had the luxury of virtually no real power. I especially liked the female members of the party who even at this distance still seem to glow in my memory as young women who were close to being Godesses. God, if only I could go back for just a weekend, and really savour the gifts that were given so freely by those wonderful, gorgeous, bright, and lovely girls. It seemed, at the time, surrounded by murk and gloom, something close to paradise.

    And this “interest” is probably what keeps me going still. The search and promise, the hope of finding and entering… paradise, here, on earth, just for a while.

    I’m probably even more of a romantic than you are.

    But back with a bump and a thud in the dreary real world, we have to understand that the State and the Market have merged to an extraordinary degree. Or perhaps, as I suspect, and see hard evidence for, it was always like this, only we never noticed.

    The concept of the Corporate State raises it’s hydra-like head here, and the snakes are speaking with forked tongues.

    I think we’ve entered the post-bourgeois, post-Liberal, post-democratic, era. This will have profound consequences. Especially for the middle class. Who for better and worse, defined this era to a large extent. Arguably this also means the end of the line for the emancipation of the working class too. One still, at least formally, has a vote, only without real representation, which kind of undermines the entire idea.

    The recent elections in the United States appear to support this view. If, by spending vast ammounts of money, at a ratio of perhaps ten to one, it’s possible for the newly energized Republican Party to effectively “buy” an election, or at the least, influence the result in their favour, then what has happened to Democracy and free and fair elections?

    And this parody of Democracy, which was condemned in Athens and Rome when they had elections, is incredibly dangerous. It means that the masses can be bought by the corporations to further their narrow interests at the expense of everyone else.

    The democratic system is being successfully manipulated, and the voters are voting, whether they realize it or not, to dismantle democracy, repalcing it with a form of neo-fuedalism, which is where, I fear, we are heading.

  19. Rob

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:49 pm

  20. somebody

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:53 pm

    Tinkering with one of the (s)tinkers.

    Phil Woolas immigration leaflets case: high court orders election rerun in Oldham East

    Specially convened election court heard that Labour MP stirred up racial tensions in successful attempt to retain his seat

    Polly Curtis, Whitehall correspondent

    guardian.co.uk, Friday 5 November 2010 11.38 GMT

    Labour’s shadow immigration minister, Phil Woolas, was today ejected from parliament after a court ruled he had breached election laws by making false statements claiming his Liberal Democrat opponent had “wooed” extremist Muslims in the run-up to the 6 May poll.

    For the first time in 99 years a specially convened election court has overturned the result of a parliamentary poll and ordered a rerun after two high court judges ruled the result of the Oldham East poll void. They upheld the claim by Elwyn Watkins that Woolas knowingly made false statements.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/05/phil-woolas-immigration-leaflets-oldham-east-rerun

  21. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    5 Nov, 2010 - 1:53 pm

    We have an opportunity to break the cycle of corruption. The tools are in place – Twitter – Facebook – Wkileaks – Blogs.

    No lucid commentaries or exotic words or wanting or hope will suffice to initiate the rebirth of purgation. Geopolitics is waiting to collapse, the executioners are poised to roll the deceivers into the baskets of absolution.

    The finger that pushes the first domino is YOUR finger, connected to YOUR eyes, YOUR brain and YOUR mind.

    The false-flags, the infiltration, the lies, the deceit, the cover-ups, the baptism of 911 and 7/7, the torture, the shock & awe, the WMD, the assassinations the illegal war, the murder of civilians, the massacre of children – how much does it take for your push, how much does it take to support the initial ground-work for this action by truth-seekers, scientists, preachers, janitors, house-wives and the bereaved.

    YOUR FINGER – YOUR TIME – YOUR ACTION

    Get involved or shut-up!

  22. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 2:05 pm

    “We have an opportunity to break the cycle of corruption. The tools are in place – Twitter – Facebook – Wkileaks – Blogs.”

    I thought Twitter was set up to undermine Bwilliant Wadical Wegime in Iwan!

    And the rest were all Zionists!

  23. Vronsky

    5 Nov, 2010 - 2:35 pm

    “Scotland has just increased state power over the population”

    Wish I could call ruth a liar, but it’s true. See here:

    http://newsnetscotland.com/speakers/926-a-commentary-on-the-implications-of-the-cadder-case

  24. Tom Welsh

    5 Nov, 2010 - 2:43 pm

    “What is the point of DFID giving taxpayer money to Ghana if we are costing the country money through participating in the commercial rape of its national assets?”

    That is the point of DFID giving taxpayer money to Ghana.

    You weren’t under the illusion that national governments give “aid” to other countries to help those other countries, were you? Apart from anything else, that would be betraying their own citizens who elected them to increase (or at least maintain) their standards of living.

  25. anon

    5 Nov, 2010 - 2:47 pm

    somebody -

    Our so-called democracy is an illusion. It probably always has been.

    ….every fucking democracy is an illusion….there can be no such thing

  26. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 2:56 pm

    “….every fucking democracy is an illusion….there can be no such thing”

    Bullshit!

  27. MJ

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:01 pm

    “You weren’t under the illusion that national governments give “aid” to other countries to help those other countries, were you?”

    Yes. The uses to which the DFID budget is actually put is truly scandalous. It is essentially a slush fund used to assist large corporations engineer very beneficial contracts in under-developed countries.

    No wonder the DFID’s budget hasn’t been cut.

  28. Uzbek in the UK

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:15 pm

    Societies by their definition need leadership and thus leaders. Some of us are richer and thus have more influence over the course of actions that are to be undertaken. Elites have existed in any kinds of society. Even Lenin understood that he was wrong when he stated that ‘scullery maid could lead the nation’. This ended up in formation of new soviet elite (educated, cruel and with will to more power).

    I also agree with someone here who said that democracy was never a reality. Society need leadership and yet again there will always be someone who has more power and more influence than the other. This is natural to all of us humans, and societies that we have established.

    The disbalance here is that quantitative majority of us are at the same time qualitative minority when it comes to a decision making, that by definitions affects more of us because we are larger in quantity. This allows government increase taxes, tuition fees, cut benefits and funding for those who need it (that affect most of us) and at the same time spend billions on supporting of financial services and allow richest people to dodge taxes (this is beneficial for minority). The aim should be to turn us to a majority when it comes to a decision making. How to do this in a real world is very difficult question.

  29. Anonymous

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:15 pm

    “….every fucking democracy is an illusion….there can be no such thing”

    “Bullshit!”

    Such cutting debate…

  30. MJ

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:15 pm

    “Most probably people will do nothing about it until they suffer economic hardship. And then who knows what’ll happen”.

    It is possible that the banks will come round for seconds. What measures has the government taken to ensure that a fiscal crash/trillion pound bail-out doesn’t happen again? None really.

  31. somebody

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:18 pm

    Previously under the control of the weasel like Wee Duggie Alexander and now Andrew Mitchell, famous for his use of offshore tax havens.

    http://www.international-adviser.com/article/channel-4-investigates-tax-avoidance

    Nemak Shafik, the permanent secretary to the gangsters-in-charge was Vice President of the World Bank. Enough said.

    http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-DFID/Our-organisation1/Management-board/

  32. Parky

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:31 pm

    Well Woolas has been kicked out after some election court ruled he had screwed up. So what about Straw and his bribery of the electorate with a curry supper which Craig pointed out was against the rules. Or is he immune from such rulings?

  33. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:31 pm

    “Such cutting debate…”

    Anyone who writes “X is an illusion. Always has been” has not offered anything worth debating. So dismissing their “argument” with “Bullshit!” is simply showing them that they have not made a substantial claim and therefore can be dismissed without a substantial reply.

    Now, you are really sticking your neck out with your sarcastic dig showing that if debate had ever sunk to a new low you were determined to take it lower and not even bother to sign your post. Not even with a handle.

    So who are you? Do you have a point? if not fuck off!

  34. StefZ

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:39 pm

    “….every fucking democracy is an illusion….there can be no such thing”

    “Bullshit!”

    “Such cutting debate…”

    I believe what the first commentator may be alluding to is that, without some constitutional basis which sets down unalterable principles, democracy is open to becoming the tyranny of the majority over the minority

    or in the case of most British parliaments in recent years, the minority over the majority

  35. Clark

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:41 pm

    Democracy is not a right in a practical sense. Lots of democracies required fighting – war or revolution – to achieve them. As soon as a democracy is established, special interest groups start finding ways to subvert its power to themselves. These groups are often successful to some extent. It usually takes some crisis before enough people see the problem and take action.

    The growth of democracy is not a gentle increase. Rather, it is achieved in sudden leaps, with a gradual diminution and decay between.

    Democracy is like health. It’s not something that you achieve once and forever. It’s something that has to be maintained. The UK effectively has AIDS; the immune system of democracy has been subverted.

  36. AJ Finch

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:42 pm

    Craig,

    I see no hope either, but we _must_ have hope.

  37. StefZ

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:51 pm

    It’s worth remembering that the founding fathers of the USA set it up as a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy,…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

    …and thought things through long and hard before doing so

  38. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:51 pm

    Angrysober,

    I have read in-between your lines of humour.

    Let me remind you of the crushing of Iran’s first *democracy*. The overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh by the intelligence agencies(SIS).

    The crushing of Iran’s *democracy* launched 25 years of dictatorship under Mohammad-Reza Shah Pahlavi.

    So much for the defence of freedoms eh?

    A prime example of the overthrow of a democratically elected government to suit British economic and strategic interests – OIL (Hossein Fardoust).

    I trained men in HMS Collingwood who told me the Mossad supported SAVAK tortured many and a favourite of theirs was pulling toe-nails out one by one.

    Sources:

    “Targeting Iran”, by David Barsamian, Noam Chomsky, Ervand Abrahamian, and Nahid Mozaffari.

    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB126/iran980600.pdf (Heavily redacted)

    “All the Shah’s Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror”

    Stephen Kinzer. New York: John Wiley and Sons, 2003.

  39. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:52 pm

    “It’s not something that you achieve once and forever. It’s something that has to be maintained. The UK effectively has AIDS; the immune system of democracy has been subverted.”

    Quite a good analogy that is, Clark!

  40. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 3:58 pm

    Mark,

    “I have read in-between your lines of humour.”

    Please explain what the above sentence means!

    “Let me remind you of the crushing of Iran’s first *democracy*. The overthrow of the democratically elected Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh by the intelligence agencies(SIS).”

    You don’t have to remind me of it. I know about it. I actually think about it quite disproportionately to other things I do. By the way, have you read Tim Weiner’s Legacy of Ashes?

    There is also another book out recently which I would like to read. By an Iranian writer. I’ll look up a review of it. Hold on!

  41. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:07 pm

  42. Roderick Russell

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:23 pm

    Once the system becomes corrupt it is very easily controlled by rogue elements in the Elites with the assistance of MI5/MI6 (or other security services) since almost everybody can be blackmailed by those who know where the skeletons are.

  43. anon

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:31 pm

    illusion….what i meant is what Craig is saying in his main article …democracy does not work and never will…

  44. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:35 pm

    I have Angrysober but the saddest fact to me and a responsibility is the British took the lead in Iran.

    The CIA just wanted to change the world but they did not know the world, so we encouraged them despite the wisdom’s of great British men. Men like Lord Acton who fought against the brutality of Robert Mugabe’s regime, he said,”And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

    Tenet knew about 911 – he told us – we sat and watched while the worst of us ‘put’ options.

  45. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:41 pm

    “Tenet knew about 911 – he told us – we sat and watched while the worst of us ‘put’ options.”

    Sorry, Mark. There’s no point in being a radical if you are too mealy-mouthed to say what you mean.

    What are you talking about?

  46. Al

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:47 pm

    “The political and economic system has come to serve the interests of a tiny elite, vastly wealthier than the run of the population…”

    - but was this not always the case? Surely the whole foundation of the political system is thugs annexing land.

    I found John Humphrys recent report from China, at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11575942 interesting where he describes a ‘dissident’ as one who wants to be able to change the government.

    He says, [The Chinese] seemed genuinely baffled by my insistence that the ultimate freedom is the freedom to throw out the people in power if you don’t like them.

    He doesn’t notice that the de facto British government does not really change just because there is an election and the faces change. Jack Straw et al are still at their command posts.

  47. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:49 pm

    By the way, I did read it before and many other readers would have seen it, but who was the numptie who was getting all angry about the “disgusting Western habit” of sitting on a toilet seat instead of squatting?

    I can’t remember who it was but that idiot is a prize-winning self-hater unless of course he goes outside for a crap, which I most certainly doubt.

  48. angrysoba

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:51 pm

    “He doesn’t notice that the de facto British government does not really change just because there is an election and the faces change. Jack Straw et al are still at their command posts.”

    Yeah, coz Britain’s just the same as China innit Al!

    Tosser!

  49. Courtenay Barnett

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:51 pm

    @Craig,

    I just shared these thoughts with a friend, speaking about the US economic system:-

    I do not believe that the intention of the financial elite is specifically to destroy the middle class. The destruction of the middle class is an inevitable consequence of a number of factors:-

    1. In the 1970s Nixon opened the trade door with China and the manufacturing interests saw great opportunity in investing in a country where the same environmental, work safety

    laws, cheap labour did not apply as in the US. This process has led to the flight of factories and manufacturing out of the US – to China and other cheap labour places such as Mexico. Logically, without the factory in the US then the jobs are not available in the US.

    2. Join to factor 1 above, the removal of currency controls and free flow of capital around the world. The ideological process for free global financial movement started with Ronald Reagan as the spokesperson for the process, who then gave the process its ideological underpinning which was sold to the American people and the world at large.From the 1930s the Glass-Steagall Act was sensibly enacted to introduce regulation and sensible checks and balances so that the events which led to the Great Depression would not be allowed an environment for replication. The stupidity of the political directorate was to preach an ideology of virtual unrestrained “free market” activities, which when translated into individual investor action actually became unrestrained greed and literal theft of pension funds, life savings and people’s investments. The Savings and Loan debacle was just a baby to the monster that later emerged. Each President after Reagan has only entrenched the process. The end result with the derivatives and mortgage collapses is that millions of people ended up financially screwed because of the Wall Street “banksters” theft of trillions.

    3. The third step in the process, was how the political directorate reacted to the crisis and this now is where stupidity can be seen to have made a marriage with theft and greed:-

    i) Does it make any sense to hand back to institutions and individuals sums in trillions when it was their financial actions, such as in the derivative and mortgage markets, that had caused the financial crisis?

    ii) Even if some institutions were to be saved and financially restored, as Obama did with the automobile sector, did it make any sense to do so in a manner that did not correct and reintroduce the missing checks and balances – absence of which had caused the crisis?

    iii) Is it not telling that Bush had started the process of handing out the trillions, and with Geithner’s advice Obama continued the process?

    What this all equates to is a total sell out by the political elected officials to the greed and criminality of the financial classes. The bigger picture is that with a huge gap in missing globally competitive manufacturing in the US there is a gaping hole in the US jobs market, and with the financial shenanigans of the US Treasury there is an expanding unsustainable deficit. The US has gotten away with this madness for so long, mainly because the US dollar remains the world’s reserve currency.

    If you think it is all very bad at present, just wait as the crisis deepens.

    This is how I see it.

    CB ( http://www.globaljusticeonline.com)

    Some are calling for a revolution:-

    http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jspv=2&c=xjU0u9weXnth4C5mWelC9KcbCWd%2Fc4lm

    At the individual level, we can first begin to understand the bigger picture, but ultimately we ( the individual) need to question ?” have we acted responsibly and what can each of us do? When the answer comes, then act accordingly.

    Nuff said.

    CB

  50. Polo

    5 Nov, 2010 - 4:57 pm

    A belated contribution to Guy Fawkes’s day.

    Back to the future:

    http://parent:allow@www.photopol.com/parental/bang/bang.html

  51. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    5 Nov, 2010 - 5:14 pm

    Angry – Darioush Bayandor tells the truth and exposes the prevarication of Kermit Roosevelt’s account that sits in the minds of the intelligences agencies and many Iranians. We were interested in securing oil and the clerics took advantage of the internal dynamics to secure power. What happened to the money supllied by the CIA to bride Iranians actors or crowd control – who knows – maybe it was saved and used again in the last elections ;-)

  52. Larry from St. Louis

    5 Nov, 2010 - 5:19 pm

    Of course Mark Golding, who runs a phony charity, has to bring up the “false flag attacks” of 911 and 7/7.

    Mark, you’re a moron. 19 Arab Muslims did 911.

    And stop getting rich off of sick pictures of children blown up by jihadists.

  53. glenn

    5 Nov, 2010 - 5:20 pm

    More news to cheer us up…

    ‘US troops beheaded Iraqi detainee’

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/148265.html

    Original:

    http://wikileaks.org/id/9144F69E-423D-4561-52BC3A74A67A6F2F/

  54. Ruth

    5 Nov, 2010 - 5:29 pm

    Roderick,

    I don’t believe the system is controlled by rogue elements in the Elites with the assistance of MI5/MI6 (or other security services.)

    I believe the system is controlled very tightly by a ‘government’ within the government, most probably made up of senior Privy Councillors and their advisers. This hidden government has huge resources often procurred by the intelligence services in investment here and abroad and looked after by certain accountancy firms.

    I agree with writerman when he talks about neo-feudalism. If the companies of the hidden government out do other private businesses, which would be a strong possiblity because the government companies wouldn’t be weighed down by loans, then people would become neo-peasants owning nothing serving their masters.

  55. Al

    5 Nov, 2010 - 5:42 pm

    Oh dear, it looks like the British are just as bad as the Americans, anyway:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11702111

    - and the MOD doesn’t want a public inquiry and is already calling it all ‘history’:

    “The MoD takes all allegations seriously and has already set up the dedicated Iraq Historic Allegations Team (IHAT) to investigate them.

    “The IHAT is the most effective way of investigating these unproven allegations rather than a costly public inquiry.”

  56. Alfred

    5 Nov, 2010 - 5:45 pm

    I supose once Larry shows up it’s time to close the thread. However, as no one has put in a word against the corporation tax and in favor of its legal avoidance by Vodafone, I will.

    A tax on corporations is a tax on investment, and is thus a job killer. By eliminating the corporation tax, investment in Britain would greatly increase, offshore tax avoidance structures would be dismantled and their administrative function repatriated to the UK, and people like Rupert Murdoch (reportedly the second person admitted to 10 Downing St after the election of the new government) would have less reason to bribe the government by, for example, writing multi-million-dollar book deals with retiring politicians.

    The present regime of corporate taxation unfairly penalizes small businesses that lack the resources either to lobby government to tilt the playing field to their advantage or to devise tax avoidance measures.

    Elimination of corporation tax increases internally generated funds for new investment. Profits paid to shareholders would continue to be taxed in the hands of those shareholders as they should be. Dividends paid to foreigners can be subject to a withholding tax.

    Although plutocracy has always been the normal form of government, it is more destructive of public welfare today than in times past because the plutocratic oligarchs have largely abandoned their local and national allegiance. Their executive jets and mega-yachts have made them citizens of the world — those parts of it that remain habitable. How to restore a sense of responsibility among the rich, and in particular a sense of responsibility for the welfare of those who live where the wealth of the plutocracy is generated, is something that needs serious consideration.

  57. Andrew

    5 Nov, 2010 - 5:55 pm

  58. MikeD

    5 Nov, 2010 - 6:24 pm

    See John Pilger’s latest article in New Staetsman!

  59. Clark

    5 Nov, 2010 - 6:50 pm

    They said to me “smile, things could be worse”…

    So I smiled, and things DID get worse!

  60. ingo

    5 Nov, 2010 - 6:59 pm

    In the microcosm that is Norfolk, the news is controlled by Archant. Thery used to have a forum to debate the issue but rid themselves of ‘too free a speech’a couple of years ago.

    Today its sister paper, the Evening News shut its forum.

    Comments are now ‘ordered’ by a machine and any foul words will throw up a maderator to look at it. Had three refusals on pressing issues to do with cuts, meals on wheels,etc. their reasoning for refusal: ‘other’.

    please can anybody elucidate me as to what this may be?

    Regional media outlets are shutting their facillities to debate and bring up issues, like the 700 K wasted by South Norfolk DC this year alone, on court costs in lost planning rows they should have known they’d loose.

    There is another issue of police corruption at bethel Street police station that is not being touched by the media, one officer is suspended, unnamed, and other are being investigated.

    I reluctantly agree with Craigs analysis, but not with the last sentence.

    As long as we are here and alive and kicking, we shall kick and scream and kick some more.

    In a years time, once the cuts have brought it home to them that they are the one’s who will be hardest hit by future tax takes by greedy bankers and such ilk, a very young disenchanted, unemployed generation of school leavers who can’t get jobs, housing and qualifications will remember their agility with all things hand held, they will use Facebook and other sites to meet and coordinate actions, they will set up sites themselves and become a force to be reckoned with, internal strife by young people who have to live rough on the streets, fight red tape every step of their way.

    Or was that a book I read?….

    Have you got a link for the Pilger article Mike?

  61. Suhayl Saadi

    5 Nov, 2010 - 7:07 pm

    Don’t lose hope in the sense that coherent strategising and organised collective action remains our only weapon. It may well take a mass collapse to engender the latter. But if people are ready, it will have direction and theory. It would have to involve both middle and working classes. We are moving into an Ancien Regime situation. There seem to be no Jeremy Benthams in the power structure any more.

  62. ingo

    5 Nov, 2010 - 7:10 pm

    Answer your own daft request why don’t you Krauty…

    the Pilger article

    http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2010/11/pilger-britain-british

  63. imgo

    5 Nov, 2010 - 7:26 pm

    How come we have not heard any of this before. Its been going on for decadesa apparently.

    Oh diddums, this makes Bernie Madoff an amateur.

    http://www.thedailybell.com/1493/HSBC-and-JP-Morgan-Face-Lawsuits-for-Precious-Metals-Manipulations.html

  64. Clark

    5 Nov, 2010 - 8:10 pm

    Thanks for the Daily Bell link, Ingo. Can anyone tell me anything about this website? Here’s a link for our Irish contributors:

    http://www.thedailybell.com/1504/Internal-Contradictions-at-EUs-Heart.html

    If the Daily Bell site doesn’t scroll nicely for you, try blocking the rather nice background image.

  65. Larry from St. Louis

    5 Nov, 2010 - 8:30 pm

    Best quote from the Pilger article:

    “When Britain was officially bankrupt at the end of the Second World War, the government built its greatest public institutions, such as the National Health Service and the arts edifices of London’s South Bank.”

    Right. With a loan from the U.S. Which wasn’t paid off until the 1980s.

    Loons, all you you.

  66. Larry from St. Louis

    5 Nov, 2010 - 8:32 pm

    Actually wasn’t paid off until a few years ago.

  67. Suhayl Saadi

    5 Nov, 2010 - 9:13 pm

    What’s my “race”, Larry? What’s my “race”? My “race”, because of which, according to you, I have been “socially promoted”? Can you define what my “race” might be, Larry.

    When the comment allegedly by you appeared in relation to “ragheads”, and which led immediately to stern censure (and rightly so) by Angrysoba, after persistent questioning, you claimed, a number of months later, that it hadn’t been you after all.

    I accepted your explanation because I’m that kind of guy – I give people the benefit of the doubt, sometimes to breaking-point.

    I break my suggested rulke of not engaging with you in order to pose this question to you: According to you, what is exactly is my “race” and why might I have been “socially promoted” because of it?

    So what’s the explanation this time, Larry?

  68. Larry from St. Louis

    5 Nov, 2010 - 9:50 pm

    I never used the term “raghead.” If I did so, Angrysoba would have every reason and right to chastise me. I didn’t see either the use of the term or Angrysoba’s rebuke.

  69. Larry from St. Louis

    5 Nov, 2010 - 9:55 pm

    who is this CUNT Larry from St. Louis always talking 5hit. Someone send him to Iraq please so he can get killed

  70. Suhayl Saadi

    5 Nov, 2010 - 9:55 pm

    1) But you claimed that someone else wrote it under your name. How could you claim this when you’d never seen it? I am confused.

    2) Angrysoba, help us out here, would you, there’s a good man. I’m sure everyone here recalls Angrysoba rebuking the poster who went under the monicker, ‘Larry from St Louis’ for using the term “raghead”. It’ll be find-able on one of the threads from some months ago.

    3) Can you define, please, what you meant by my “race” and your assertion that I was “socially promoted” because of my “race”?

    Thank you for responding.

  71. somebody

    5 Nov, 2010 - 9:57 pm

    John Pilger’s website is down at the moment – under construction.

    He has a new film coming out that will go on release on 13 December and will also be shown on ITV. The War You Don’t See.

    http://thelinc.co.uk/2010/11/pilger-reveals-the-war-you-dont-see/

    Showing at the Soho Cinema + a Q&A

    http://www.curzoncinemas.com/events/special_event/the_war_you_dont_see_qanda_john_pilger

    The War You Don’t See [Advised 16]

    Director: John Pilger

  72. Larry from St. Louis

    5 Nov, 2010 - 10:07 pm

    “But you claimed that someone else wrote it under your name. How could you claim this when you’d never seen it? I am confused.”

    I was informed later on (from you, probably) that someone had written that in my name. I would assume that I was informed of this subsequent to it having been written, as time moves in one direction.

    I question your ability to think as a doctor because you think Roderick Russell’s complaints are grounded in the real world. Clearly it’s not the case that MI5/MI6 is following him because he once quit a job. He writes crazy letters-to-the-editor and letters to MPs, and he believes that those constitute evidence for being targeted. (We’ve been through this before). I can’t believe that the typical doctor that Britain graduates would not immediately see through the mind of a very sick individual like Roderick. Therefore, I was wondering if you were socially promoted because of your race – by that, I mean whatever box you check – and ultimately at the end of your education it was quite obvious to everyone that you didn’t quite have the credentials to be a medical doctor.

    If you’re getting at the fact that race is a silly concept, I’d mostly agree with you. We all share the same genome.

    However, race does matter when the government does give promotional preferences to perceived members of perceived minorities.

  73. Suhayl Saadi

    5 Nov, 2010 - 10:21 pm

    As I understand it, the UK does not have – and has never had – either de jure or de facto affirmative action policies. Certainly not in the field to which you refer.

    It is not possible to establish a diagnosis of psychiatric illness on the basis of the information which you provide.

    Many people hold many beliefs and views about the government and other matters. It doesn’t automatically mean that they are mentally ill. For example, Alfred holds views with which I and most other scientists (and most others) would disagree on ‘race’, but it doesn’t mean that he is mentally ill.

    I am glad that you agree with me about the concept of ‘race’ and that you have clarified your statement to that extent.

    How is the Ottoman Garden?

  74. ingo

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:16 pm

    Gee, larry, epitaphs, what has come over you?

    C’mon, you can tell us.

  75. Courtenay Barnett

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:23 pm

    @ All,

    A taste of Pilger:-

    ” Born of the “never again” spirit of 1945, social democracy has surrendered to an extreme political cult of money worship. This reached its apogee when £1trn of public money was handed unconditionally to corrupt banks by a Labour government whose leader, Gordon Brown, had previously described “financiers” as the nation’s “great example” and his personal “inspiration”. ”

    The US finacial experience replicated in the UK.

  76. MJ

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:28 pm

    “I can’t believe that the typical doctor that Britain graduates would not immediately see through the mind of a very sick individual like Roderick. Therefore, I was wondering if you were socially promoted because of your race – by that, I mean whatever box you check – and ultimately at the end of your education it was quite obvious to everyone that you didn’t quite have the credentials to be a medical doctor”

    This has to be one of the crassest, most gratuitously unpleasant and twisted remarks I’ve ever seen on this blog. Larry from St Louis is banned from this site and with good reason.

    Given his rather flustered and clueless responses to anything concerning evidence, I have to question whether he has anything to do with the law.

  77. Suhayl Saadi

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:44 pm

    “I was informed later on (from you, probably) that someone had written that in my name. I would assume that I was informed of this subsequent to it having been written, as time moves in one direction.” Larry from St Louis

    The phrasing of this part of the response, its blatant uncertainty, the use of the word, ‘would’ and ‘probably’, would tend to suggest, I would argue, that the person who typed this was not the same person as the one who responded to me over the “raghead” iteration. They are scrambling to get a handle on what I’m talking about.

    We already knew this, of course, that the phenomenon is a plural one, and I’m reluctant to spend more time and space exploring the phenomenon.

    It’s rather more fun engaging with the spambots, actually. Whoever has been typing them seems conflicted. They’ve typed phrases suhc as “I’m very sorry” and an attempted explantion of ‘Sir John’ [Sawyers], quoting from the speech.

    It is important to realise that even the security and intelligence services are not monolithic entities, that there are people working in these organisations who have consciences – otherwise, where would whistleblowers come from? It is our duty to permit those people space to manoeuvre, or at least, for us to be active, where pertinent, in scattering little acorns…

    I’m sure people like Craig, Mark (Golding) and Iain Orr (and no doubt others) know this very well – far better than I.

  78. Courtenay Barnett

    5 Nov, 2010 - 11:53 pm

    @ Suhayl,

    Larry spoke in language “raghead” that would pass in the US on a blog, and not raise the same level of outrage as it has generated here. His “race” reference has put him in a tail spin, and he is trying to right the vehicle to move on.

    You are quite gracious Suhayl.

    CB

  79. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    6 Nov, 2010 - 12:42 am

    You are gracious Suhayl and you remind me of my dearest friend ‘Jit’ Channa who married a Swiss lady and sadly left Britain – he quite unselfishly saved me from many a ‘bad’ situation.

    Get your facts right Larry (not from St Louis) Lend-Lease provided Britain’s war material. Lend-Lease from Canada funded the win in the Battle of Britain. Lend-Lease ended abruptly in 1945 and left Britain wanting.

    We asked for a gift from America and got a loan. We have now paid that loan back so sod off from the Chagos Archipelago – India objects to your torture ships stationed there and so do I.

  80. glenn

    6 Nov, 2010 - 2:21 am

    Suhayl: You are worth ten thousand larrys before you have even thought about breakfast, please don’t allow these weak-minded fools to distress you. They only exist to enable more enlightened people to remind real individuals to measure their personal dignity.

    The Larrys are nothing but filth you have to scrape off your shoe before entering a worthwhile establishment. The stuff you have to wipe from your bottom so you can carry on undertakings that benefit the world. The trash that needs to be taken out, the filth that needs flushing down the sewer.

    This Larry-stuff is terribly unfortunate, but it needs a clinical response. Don’t dwell on it, or sniff at close proximity – just pass it with as little attention as possible, and move on.

  81. Antonio Lorusso

    6 Nov, 2010 - 2:24 am

    Craig. There is indeed no hope for statism, perhaps you are starting to see that now. All governments are this corrupt, most people, unlike yourself don’t get to see it from inside. Your experiences in Uzbekistan aren’t the exception for governments, they are the the rule, the US has openly admitted to torture and nobody has done a damned thing, not even the US citizens.

    You now have seen and come to realise the festering evil that is all statism. Let go of the state, do not feed it or support it any more than the laws of the land, enforced with violence, make necessary for you to do so.

    Instead support and promote voluntary mutual beneficial association and action that does not force itself on others, like the state does.

    Right now, voluntarism is stifled by the media, because they have numbers on their side, but choose it anyway, because change is never going to happen (peacefully, always peacefully) any other way. Even if it doesn’t happen in our lifetime, you can be a part of it’s gestation. Put your hope in that.

  82. angrysoba

    6 Nov, 2010 - 2:53 am

    Larry, fuck off you cunt!

  83. Alfred

    6 Nov, 2010 - 3:36 am

    “What’s my “race”, Larry?”

    Afghan-Pakistani, apparently!

    http://www.contemporarywriters.com/authors/?p=auth5688A1010f0421D601nXm1C28A1E

    PS, I like the hat.

  84. somebody

    6 Nov, 2010 - 4:20 am

    Woolas – odious, rancid little creep

    Fall of former UK minister exposes Labour’s fascist election strategy

    By Yvonne Ridley

    6 November 2010

    Yvonne Ridley views the demise of former British Minister of State for Borders and Immigration Phil Woolas against the background of the Labour Party’s racist and fascist election strategy under suspected war criminal Tony Blair and his successor, the now defeated ex-Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

    So, former British government minister Phil Woolas has finally been rumbled for playing the race and religion cards in a political game which has fuelled Islamaphobia in the UK.

    Two high court judges have ruled that his election as MP for Oldham East and Saddleworth is “void”. Woolas was brought before the court on accusations of stirring up racial hatred and seizing on anti-Muslim sentiment in Oldham by claiming that his rival endorsed a Muslim campaign to remove him.

    “Odious, rancid little creep”

    http://www.redress.cc/global/yridley20101106

  85. Larry from St. Louis

    6 Nov, 2010 - 7:03 am

    “Get your facts right Larry (not from St Louis) Lend-Lease provided Britain’s war material. Lend-Lease from Canada funded the win in the Battle of Britain. Lend-Lease ended abruptly in 1945 and left Britain wanting.”

    I wasn’t talking about Lend-Lease. I was talking about the Anglo-American Loan Agreement.

    And Canada saved Britain in the Battle of Britain? Not the U.S.? Is that what they teach you at school?

  86. Larry from St. Louis

    6 Nov, 2010 - 7:06 am

    Courtenay Barnett: “Larry spoke in language “raghead” that would pass in the US on a blog, and not raise the same level of outrage as it has generated here.”

    Your best argument against me is that someone impersonating me used the term “raghead.”

  87. Suhayl Saadi

    6 Nov, 2010 - 8:55 am

    Courtenay, Mark, Glenn, thanks all very much for your solidarity and good sense. Much appreciated.

    Alfred, I’m glad you dig the hat! You’re obviously a man with good taste. Thanks also for posting the link to the BC (in this context, that’s ‘British Council’, of course, not ‘British Columbia’ or ‘Before Christ’!); it’s a good piece by James Proctor.

    Somehow, I don’t think the 2:52am post was actually posted by angrysoba; it’s not his style at all. Perhaps he would be able to enlighten us in this respect.

    So, back then to democracy, corruption, etc.

    Have a great day/night!

  88. ingo

    6 Nov, 2010 - 9:54 am

    Two easy larry, its the cheapest get out clause you can come up with.

    Unless you denounce this alledged imposters vile use of words, and say so, you are not only banned, but toast!

    More stewing this morning, Coulson has been interviewd again, a lot of smoke emitting from Downing Street, but David Cameron does not feel the heat of a fire.

    Why is that? what does Andy Coulson have on Cameron/the police, that he can hold on to his job?

    Are his ‘abilities’ to use scanners and other surveillance equipment not make him a better candidate for the MI’s?, surely his abillities are wasted.

    As for the two rosy cheeks of the law, Andy, you have to slap it a little harder, it has become so used to being abused by people in authority, that it has become insensitive and thick skinned.

    God, what a stench this Lib Con pact already emits!

  89. Suhayl Saadi

    6 Nov, 2010 - 10:24 am

    Thanks, ingo and MJ, too! What great spirited-folk you all are!

  90. ingo

    6 Nov, 2010 - 10:32 am

    Weird goings on here in Norwich.

    This morning a contingent of Riot/terror police in full outfits were deployed in Norwich’s Berstreet area, the red light district.

    No explanation was given to the BBC locally, or the papers, they just appeared menacing and in full regalia.

    I rang the Bebbe and asked, they are as perplexed than the public.

    My wife rang me and said they were milling around fully armed and scary to look at.

    Now if this was an exercise, I would have expected these storm troopers to inform either the Beeb or the local papers, they did not, so it must be something real and emminent.

    Unless of course, Norwich has been singled out for pre xmas scare tactics, goading the shopper sinto spending that little bit more, maybe they are on a retainer,Lol

    But such sinister use of the police, our servants is scary for the general public, my missis did not want to walk up to them and ask whether its an exercise or what.

    I shall keep you informed as to what comes of it. Thanks god I declined going into Norwich with her, otherwise I would have challenged them with the inevitable consequence.

  91. ingo

    6 Nov, 2010 - 10:59 am

    Police is saying its an ongoing incident and that the police is fully armed, they refuse to say whethger it bis an exercise and they are not obliged to inform the papers or the public.

    My phoning them has put their backs up and they wanted to know where i’m living, my name, I’m assured of a vist to ‘explain’, they say.

    well, well, ask questions and you get, action!

  92. MJ

    6 Nov, 2010 - 11:07 am

    ingo: there’s a report about the Ber St operation here:-

    http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/armed_police_in_ongoing_operation_in_norwich_1_719745

  93. ingo

    6 Nov, 2010 - 11:26 am

    Indeed MJ, thats all the explanation there is, an ‘ongoing incident’.

    This is not enough imho, if there is an armed idiot running around, intend on doing harm, then their first step should be to warn us, not scare us.

  94. Vronsky

    6 Nov, 2010 - 12:09 pm

    @suhayl

    Rule 1 for handling trolls: Do not enter a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

  95. ingo

    6 Nov, 2010 - 1:25 pm

    PC Sweeney just rang me back, trying to explain away the fear that has been created in Norwich City centre today.

    He said that there was an ongoing incident and that it was not an exercise.

    So I asked whether there is someone armed running loose, he replied that he did not say that and that he can’t say what the incident is about.

    I asked whether they expect top arrest someone at the end of this incident and he said he couldn’t say.

    So I implied that he has not really assured me and that his answers were vague and as ambiguous as the deployment of armed units in the City.

    I said that it is as important for the public to be in the know, so they can get out of your way and look after their own safety, as it is for you to explain yourselfs in terms that does not make you look like fearmongering storm troopers.

    He did not like that and not unlike an automaton he rewound and said the same thing again.

    So, this leaves us with an ongoing incident in the centre of Norwich, it could be a hoax, or just an expression of Norwich Police’s anxiety over the ongoing corruption investigation at Bethel Street, the public could be under a threat of an armed mad person, it could be a terror incident (in Ber Street of all places??)

    Maybe fag ash Lil has risen from the dead and is haunting her old neighbourhood, thing is my missis is out in it, shoppin’.

  96. Ruth

    6 Nov, 2010 - 1:34 pm

    If you think about it, governments use military parades to scare other nations. With the oncoming demonstrations/riots no doubt it would be an expedient exercise for our rulers to show off their might. I believe members of the army have already been asked if they were prepared to shot at the civilian population.

  97. Craig

    6 Nov, 2010 - 1:54 pm

    Ingo

    Let’s hope they are going to arrest the staff of the EDP – always amused me that the Tory media whores are in the red light district.

  98. Vronsky

    6 Nov, 2010 - 2:05 pm

    “I believe members of the army have already been asked if they were prepared to shot at the civilian population.”

    Probably an unnecessary courtesy. An old gentleman of my aquaintance knew one of the officers who had been in charge of a machine gun in George Square in 1919 when the government, fearing a Bolshevik rising (those were the days), sent in tanks and troops. He asked him if, had he been ordered, he would have told his crew to open fire. ‘Yes’ he said, ‘but I had the firing pin in my pocket’.

    I don’t believe it. Troops have no problem firing on civilians, including their own. Remember Bloody Sunday? Kent State University? Self-defence is the usual plea.

    Speaking of Kent State, I wonder how long before we see the formation of our own National Guard – it would seem a logical consequence of the numerous scares and panics. The British TA have already held joint exercises with Wisconsin National Guard.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1bb_1186520308

  99. ingo

    6 Nov, 2010 - 2:13 pm

    Fat chance of that happening Craig, but this is the latest from the Tory whores, as you say, I prefer to call Archant Arsechant, a much nicer word than ‘farts’ don’t you think?

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/armed_police_in_ongoing_operation_in_norwich_1_719745

  100. technicolour

    6 Nov, 2010 - 2:19 pm

    actually remember an interview with one US commander complaining that it was extremely hard to get soldiers to fire at people, even other soldiers. He reckoned only 20 percent would, a fact born out a stat I remember reading from WW2, which again said that about 80 percent of troops shot into the air.

    No links, I’m afraid; but have good memory.

  101. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    6 Nov, 2010 - 3:07 pm

    “numerous scares and panics”

    Remedy for the ‘St Louis Blues’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbXYS8ws5KY

    If that falls flat then a ‘sing along’ to this never fails:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MLBfwblps8

    apologies to Dreoilin & Ruth

  102. Courtenay Barnett

    6 Nov, 2010 - 4:26 pm

    @ All,

    A lucid analysis which indicates why the US economy remains in the shit it is in, as shall suck the world economy along in the mess….

    Tuesday, November 9, 2010

    The Fed and the Debased “Imperial Dollar”: Future Inflation,

    Timid Economic Growth and

    Higher Interest Rates Ahead

    by Rodrigue Tremblay

    “Under a paper money system, a determined government can always generate higher spending and hence positive inflation.”

    Ben Bernanke, future Fed Chairman (in 2002)

    “My thesis here is that cooperation between the monetary and fiscal authorities in Japan could help solve the problems that each policymaker faces on its own. Consider for example a tax cut for households and businesses that is explicitly coupled with incremental BOJ purchases of government debt ?” so that the tax cut is in effect financed by money creation. Moreover, assume that the Bank of Japan has made a commitment, by announcing a price-level target, to reflate the economy, so that much or all of the increase in the money stock is viewed as permanent.”

    Ben Bernanke, future Fed Chairman (in 2002)

    “The Fed, in effect, is telling the markets not to worry about our fiscal deficits, it will be the buyer of first and perhaps last resort. There is no need – as with Charles Ponzi – to find an increasing amount of future gullibles, they will just write the check themselves. I ask you: Has there ever been a Ponzi scheme so brazen? There has not.”

    Bill Gross, PIMCO’s managing director

    On Wednesday, November 3rd, the Bernanke Fed announced that it stands ready to resume money printing to stimulate the economy through quantitative money easing, an euphemism for printing more dollars. Indeed, it intends to buy $600-billion of longer-term Treasury securities until the end of the second quarter of 2011, plus some $300 billion of reinvestments, on top of the some $1.75 trillion of various types of securities, many of which were mortgage backed securities, that it has added in 2009 to its balance sheet, currently standing at a total of $2.3 trillion. There could even be additional increases in newly printed money as the Fed intends to “regularly review and adjust the program as needed to best foster maximum employment and price stability.”

    After the election of fiscal conservatives on November 2nd, it seems that printing money is the only instrument left for the Obama administration to stimulate the economy. I fail to see, however, what is “conservative” about that. Actively debasing a currency to stimulate an economy used to be a Third-World economic recipe, ?”A recipe for disaster. Now, the United States government feels that is the only way to get out of the economic doldrums.

    But U.S. economic problems are essentially structural in nature, and are due to a bad housing mortgage policy, a bad industrial policy, a bad financial policy, a bad fiscal policy, a bad foreign investment policy, too much entitlement debt, severe demographic problems related to the aging baby-boomers, and to very costly wars abroad. Relying exclusively on monetary quick fixes to correct them misses the mark and may have serious unintended negative consequences down the road.

    In fact, it is likely that in the long run, this extreme monetary policy risks exacerbating rather than correcting the problems. Economic structural problems cannot be corrected with monetary means. They rather require real economic solutions. That means correcting the housing mortgage mess and devising an industrial strategy, a fiscal strategy, and an investment strategy that can put the economy back on its tracks of economic growth.

    But, for better or worse, the Federal Reserve Board (Fed) seems to be the only branch of the U.S. government left that can still function properly, i.e. that is not caught in a permanent political gridlock. As a consequence, for the time being at least, bankers are in charge of the U.S. economy. Since they are the ones who created many of the current problems, this is not very reassuring.

    Let’s remind ourselves that the Fed is a semi-public, semi-private organization that has a long history of creating financial asset price bubbles in the U.S and around the world, essentially because the U.S. dollar is an international key-currency widely used around the world and is an important part of other central banks’ official reserves.

    Thus, the real danger is that the Fed will again overdo it and create unmanageable financial and monetary bubbles in the coming years. ?”It did it in the past. It did it in the late 1960′s and early ’70s, and we witnessed the same scenario unfolding with the Greenspan Fed in the late 1990s, when excessive easy money helped inflate the Internet and tech stock market bubble. We saw this again in the early 2000s, when easy Fed money helped inflate the housing bubble. And now, we’re seeing it again with the Bernanke Fed. As a general rule, a central bank should not push the monetary gas pedal to the floor and be obliged to slam on the monetary brakes later, thus placing the real economy on a roller-coaster of booms and busts. That is not the way to run a large economy.

    But because of the circumstances, the Fed may be at it again. This time it is busy creating a massive bond bubble, some important currency misalignments and a massive gold and commodity price bubble. We should also not forget that abnormally low interest rates and lower bond yields increase the present value of pension liabilities of most defined benefit pension plans.

    Therefore, I would not be surprised to see a pension crisis developing in the coming years under the current Fed monetary policy. Of course, all of these bubbles are interrelated but when they come crashing down, four or five years down the road, maybe sooner, the economy may then be in worse shape than it is today. My most likely scenario is for the Fed to keep the monetary gas pedal way down until the 2012 election, and then slam on the monetary brakes thereafter to salvage what will be left of the imperial dollar.

    If so, this could be a partial repeat of Japan’s experience in mismanaging its economy in the early 1990′s until 2000, a period known as the lost decade.

    The current Fed’s monetary policy is to flood financial markets with liquidity, i.e. newly created dollars, and, in the process, devalue the U.S. dollar, spur American exports and prevent deflationary expectations from taking hold and from making already high debt loads even heavier. For this, the Fed has been engaged since 2009 in round after round of money creation and interest rate reductions to the point of pushing short-term monetary rates close to zero and keeping short-term real rates negative. But if the economy is in a liquidity trap, as it is fair to assume it is, although a central bank can print all the money it wants, this is unlikely to stimulate the real economy for very long. ?”This is like pushing on a string. Printing money, if it is an emergency temporary measure, can help mitigate the effect of having too much debt and debt-service costs relative to income, as is the case today with many debtors in a debt liquidation mode. However, if this becomes a feature of monetary policy for too long, it can have disastrous consequences.

    In general, it can be said that the Fed can manipulate short term interest rates by artificially increasing demand for short term securities, but inflation expectations are a big component of long term interest rates and are much less influenced by the Fed. Therefore, if the Fed’s intention of printing large amounts of new money raises fears of future inflation, long term interest rates may rise rather than fall, and this is bound to hurt long-term productive investments.

    Moreover, make no mistake, with globalized financial markets, a large chunk of the newly created dollars is flowing out of the United States and is invested in higher interest rate countries, pushing the dollar further down and these countries’ currencies further up. Of course, some of the newly created money will immediately find its way in the stock market, but there is no certainty that this will induce already stretched banks to increase their banking loans to businesses.

    Another consequence is this: The current outflow of U.S. dollars helps keep the dollar exchange rate low, but when the Fed is forced to aggressively raise interest rates, as it will inevitably be forced to do later on, the reverse will happen and the U.S. dollar will likely overshoot and then become overvalued. This is the case today with the Japanese yen which became unduly strong when the Japanese carry trade (too much cheap money invested abroad returns home) collapsed.

    What counts for most people, however, is that the Fed’s zero-interest rate policy has not cured the structural housing mortgage crisis, since home foreclosures are still very high. The Fed now places most of its hopes on a currency devaluation, which is the old trick of the “beggar thy neighbor” policy, i.e. trying to export one country’s unemployment to its trading partners by devaluating the currency. This was a form of protectionism much relied upon during the 1929-39 Great Depression. This may work for a while, at least as long as other countries can absorb American exports without launching their own money printing process in order to prevent an appreciation of their currencies.

    Indeed, is it likely that countries which see their currencies being revalued by the Fed will remain passive? The Fed is implicitly making the bet that these countries will not retaliate, and that the international dollar-based currency system will remain intact. But for how long? Sooner or later, some central banks around the world will have no choice but to impose capital controls in order to slow down the inflow of unwanted outside money and the onslaught of imported inflation, and prevent their exchanges rates from rising too high too fast. If they do, the entire process of economic globalization may begin to unravel.

    Meanwhile, foreign central banks, for example, could accelerate their rush to dump the U.S dollar and to accumulate gold and other more stable currencies such as the euro, the Swiss franc, the British pound, the Canadian dollar and the Australian dollar. China has already begun to do just that. The share of dollar official reserves would then decline from about 60 percent presently to perhaps less than 50 percent. That may signal the beginning of the end for the “imperial dollar” which has dominated the international monetary system since the Bretton Woods conference of 1944.

    This is to be followed closely.

    _____________________________________

    Rodrigue Tremblay

    is professor emeritus of economics at the University of Montreal

    and can be reached at rodrigue.tremblay@yahoo.com. He is the author of the book “The Code for Global Ethics” at: http://www.TheCodeForGlobalEthics.com/

  103. Courtenay Barnett

    6 Nov, 2010 - 4:29 pm

    @ Larry,

    Provide your agrument and evidence to convince us that it was not you:-

    “Your best argument against me is that someone impersonating me used the term “raghead.” ”

    Shall await your defence and reasoned argument.

  104. Roderick Russell

    6 Nov, 2010 - 4:34 pm

    LARRY THE LIAR PAID TO SMEAR ME AGAIN

    Re ?” His comment November 5, 2010 10:07 PM.

    Bare in mind that I am a whistleblower who has exposed criminal behaviour by MI5 / MI6 and it is their normal practice to resort to SMEARS, using bottom feeders like the Larry Team, when confronted with a message they don’t like. Smearing on the internet is Larry’s job; he is paid to do it. The story that I think Larry is referring to happened after I left Grosvenor International, a company owned by the Duke of Westminster, where I had been Group Controller. Here is the story that Larry’s clients are scared of:

    http://russell46.livejournal.com/

  105. Courtenay Barnett

    6 Nov, 2010 - 5:16 pm

    @ All,

    The UK cuts and revised economic policies have to have one reference point if there is to be recovery and a viable economy ?” there must be real manufacturing production, bolstered by globally saleable technologies to complement the goods produce along with special services that the world is prepared to pay for. What we find is a lot of arms production, which, truth be told is also real ( albeit highly destructive) production.

    The UK economy, seems to me, like all other in the world, remains as a sub-set in the global scheme of things, where the US dictates the shape, nature and pace of all things economic to come. So what is the US really saying and doing?

    If you reason this one out, you just may come round to accepting that the Republican prescriptions for the US economy will not work. In this regard, I now make no distinction between the Republicans and Democrats as regards macro economic policies, and I say so for two reasons:-

    1.Now that the labour movement in the US lacks the clout it used to have and cannot buoy the Democratic party with finances, the Democrats are as fully reliant on corporate backing as are the Republicans ( i.e. he who pays the piper calls the tune). In other words, it is the same money putting the politicians in – 50/50 here or 75/25% split there as the case may be – but same backers – now dance to the tune.

    2. Both the Republicans and Democrats have moved away from some economic basics. In essence it is real production that moves an economy forward, and the printing of more money to move an economy out of economic crisis has never worked. One can cite Germany’s hyper inflation or even Mugabe’s Zimbabwe for that inflation becomes inevitable and the dive and loss of value of the currency is a natural consequence of prolonged pursuit of these monetary policies. Monetary policy, by way of printing more money, may stave off deeper immediate crisis for a short while, but the economic recovery plan ultimately must factor in plans for increasing real production. America has far more room for manoeuvre than any other economy in the world because it has the world’s reserve currency and can export more readily its domestically created economic problems to other economies. The IMF and World Bank remain the primary US institutions which have done so over the entire post World War 11 period. We are now facing a new phase of global financial crisis where the traditional measures used are approaching their outer limits.

    Let’s see how it plays out over the next 2 to 3 years – brace yourselves, the US policies will impact and inevitably feed into the UK.

    Read this: http://www.thenewamericanempire.com/tremblay=1130

  106. michael007

    6 Nov, 2010 - 5:24 pm

    I fear, Craig, you are right.

    Democracy doesn’t work any more, and it’s arguable that it can’t work for any length of time without degenerating into plutocracy.

    Perhaps we need a strong man to put the rich in their place and give us all Brot und Arbeit – as they say in Germany.

  107. Antonio Lorusso

    6 Nov, 2010 - 5:57 pm

    @Courtenay Barnett

    “What we find is a lot of arms production, which, truth be told is also real ( albeit highly destructive) production.”

    There is nothing to disagree with the rest of your analysis, but your are being charitable in your characterisation of the value about arms production. If it were being funded by actual present tax revenues and without fiat currency then it would be real highly destructive production. Instead it is destructive to economies and to lives, and in times of war is a vast number of expended bullets, bombs and fuel that gives no permanent value to an economy. It’s the broken window fallacy of economics. Better to spend your money on a new suit rather than repairing a window a vandal has broken, or spending money to break one yourself.

    Besides, war, unless purely defensive, is totally utterly evil, and even a defensive war, which is morally justified for the defender, is initiated by an evil aggressor, and the UK and US have never been in danger of being invaded since World War 2, yet have initiated or supported war, without so much as a smidgen of genuine justification, quite regularly.

    I feel empathy for the people who are casting votes, writing letters to their politicians and signing petitions in a vain attempt to be safe from economic disaster or state aggression, while achieving the exact opposite. When it all comes crashing down around our ears, the ones that figure it out post crash that they brought this down upon themselves, are going to be, to use a war metaphor, in shell-shock.

  108. somebody

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:10 pm

  109. Larry from St. Louis

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:15 pm

    Ah yes, Annie Machon, 911 Truther of the most stupid kind.

  110. somebody

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:15 pm

    Ingo – EDP in bed with BBC Norwich who were so fair to Craig in the by-election NOT.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/norfolk/hi/tv_and_radio/newsid_9159000/9159850.stm

  111. Larry from St. Louis

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:20 pm

    Roderick – are you currently under any psychiatric help? You need help. The idiots around here will keep nudging you on – so much so that Suhayl will blow through his ethical responsibility – but I’ll do the favour of telling you how it really is: you’re mentally ill and you need help. You could live a much better life with counseling and medication.

    And you’ve still presented absolutely no evidence that MI5/MI6 is out to get you because you once quit a job.

  112. Anonymous

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:22 pm

    Does Steve Jobs have an iphone?

  113. Courtenay Barnett

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:41 pm

    @ Antonio,

    I do not see us as being in any fundamental disagreement.

    My overall point was not any excuse for the “war economy”. If a person works in an arms production factory, builds bombs – a person designs more efficient ways of delivering payload – a person is employed by the military to devise ways of conditioning soldiers to fight for the “cause” without questioning the policies that underpin that cause – are all one way or the other earning a living and a wage or salary doing their nine to five. The economy is impacted within the town that supplies the workers, when the workers spend, when the engineer spends his pay, when the psychologist pays his taxes etc. Not a choice I condone or approve of – it is just how it ‘works’ at present in the war economy. Physical production has taken place, money has been paid, an economy is affected by the expenditures when the pay is spent.

    If I am correct, I recall reading something of Leonardo Da Vinci shelving some designs he had of flying machines. The reason was that he foresaw the military destructive capacity, where if humans could fly they may be enabled to deliver payloads from above with horrendous consequences. ( Not sure if what I read is apocryphal). Now – just think about it all these centuries later. We, humans have not merely perfected the means of flying but on Hiroshima and Nagasaki we have delivered the atomic payloads, and on Laos and on Cambodia and in Afghanistan and in Baghdad and on and on and on. My, how truly impressive – haven’t we as a species ‘progressed’ magnificently?

  114. somebody

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:50 pm

    LfStL Would you recommend ECT? Or how about some SSRIs? From your experience which would you recommend?

  115. Larry from St. Louis

    6 Nov, 2010 - 6:52 pm

    I’m a lawyer, not a doctor.

  116. MJ

    6 Nov, 2010 - 7:24 pm

    “I’m a lawyer, not a doctor”.

    No you’re not. You’re an itinerant watch salesman. Now go away.

  117. Suhayl Saadi

    6 Nov, 2010 - 7:38 pm

    Who killed Willie McRae? New call by a retired police officer for fresh probe. Very interesting. I know a lot of very sober and sensible people in Scotland who are convinced Willie McRae’s death was not suicide.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/security-service-tailed-snp-activist-on-day-of-his-death-1.1065975

  118. somebody

    6 Nov, 2010 - 7:46 pm

    Why were you offering a medical opinion to Mr. Russell then?

  119. Larry from St. Louis

    6 Nov, 2010 - 8:13 pm

    If someone tells me that little green men are telling him to drive off the highway, it seems reasonable for me to call him delusional.

    In any event, I wasn’t really issuing a medical opinion – I was telling him to get help. Which is also quite reasonable.

    But not all medical opinions are valid. For instance, Suhayl tells the man that he believes him.

    When clearly even Craig Murray doesn’t believe a word the man says.

  120. Roderick Russell

    6 Nov, 2010 - 8:45 pm

    MORE SMEARS ?” A REAL STEW OF CORRUPTION

    Larry’s not a lawyer. The Larry’s are bottom feeders who are paid to TROLL the INTERNET and SMEAR whistle-blowers like myself. It’s his job, and he smears me almost every time I comment. Readers of this blog will note that every time Larry appears here it is to smear somebody. He does nothing else. Lawyers comment with contact details, not hide behind anonymity as Larry does. Here is the story that Larry’s clients are scared of:

    http://russell46.livejournal.com/

  121. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    6 Nov, 2010 - 9:07 pm

    “..ever shifting, ever nebulous “war on terror” Annie Machon -

    On failure of 911 Inquiry:

    “So why do I still think this is relevant and important?”

    “Well, look how 9/11 has been used by our governments. It is the justification for the unending war on terror; for the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in which at least hundreds of thousands of innocent people have died, and in which toxic weapons such as depleted uranium have been used; and for the wholesale erosion of our civil liberties and traditional freedoms. If we can expose the official version of 9/11 as a lie, then the basis for all these terrible acts disappears.”

    Bravo Annie – we love you

  122. Suhayl Saadi

    6 Nov, 2010 - 9:16 pm

    Vronsky, you’ll know about the Willie McRae story, I’m sure.

  123. KingofWelshNoir

    6 Nov, 2010 - 9:19 pm

    ‘If we can expose the official version of 9/11 as a lie, then the basis for all these terrible acts disappears.’

    I’m sorry, it’s a laudable sentiment but a bit naive.

    After nine years the lie of 9/11 has become the truth and will not change.

    Even if it were exposed it wouldn’t stop the ‘terrible acts’. They would just find another pretext for their wars.

  124. Suhayl Saadi

    6 Nov, 2010 - 9:25 pm

  125. Ruth

    6 Nov, 2010 - 9:36 pm

    For Larry to be so desperate to smear Roderick Russell, there must be something very important that Roderick was privy to in his job with Grosvenor International. As group controller he was in a powerful position.

  126. Patricia Russell

    6 Nov, 2010 - 10:23 pm

    Larry, kindly refrain from printing such lies and nonsense about my husband.

  127. Suhayl Saadi

    6 Nov, 2010 - 10:31 pm

    Dear Mrs Russell,

    Please be assured that I – and I suspect many others who frequent this blog – have nothing but admiration for your and your husband’s immense courage and fortitude over many years in facing such dreadful forces. In short, we are not fooled for one moment. It is entirely logical that those same forces would attempt consistently to constrict anyone who dares to confront them with the simple truth.

    With sincere regards,

    Suhayl Saadi

    Glasgow, Scotland

  128. anno

    6 Nov, 2010 - 10:45 pm

    And for angrysoba to get so narked about me trying to keep my bottom clean using omni-sprayed-on public toilets, (my daughter tells me this can also occur in ladies toilets if everyone else decides not to sit down on the dirty toilet seat), .. shows that he knows that only Islam has the answers.

    There is hope, if you follow the rules sent down by our Creator, and very little hope if the whole world decides metaphorically to wee on the seat!

  129. Vronsky

    6 Nov, 2010 - 11:11 pm

    “Vronsky, you’ll know about the Willie McRae story, I’m sure.”

    Of course. In my hill walking days, on my way north I’d usually stop and add a stone to the roadside cairn. The views south from the A87 are wonderful, especially in winter.

    I’m afraid I can’t add anything to what you already know on Willie McRae – within the SNP I’ve rarely heard the matter mentioned. The documents released by Northern Constabulary in 1985 are here: tinyurl.com/37hesyf

    A ‘proper’ cairn has been erected at another site nearby, regrettably by Siol na Gaidheal, a rather shady organisation which I seem to remember was founded by an ex-member of Special Forces. That’s suspicious too…

    *avoid triggering alerts

  130. Vronsky

    6 Nov, 2010 - 11:15 pm

    “*avoid triggering alerts”

    That’s got you puzzled! It’s because at first I included a sentence mentioning that September date which must not be mentioned, but spelled it in Roman numerals.

  131. Courtenay Barnett

    6 Nov, 2010 - 11:19 pm

    @ All,

    Wikileaks speaking truth to power – and – some interesting commentary:-

    http://www.zcommunications.org/war-logs-now-and-in-the-future-by-michael-schwartz

  132. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    6 Nov, 2010 - 11:29 pm

    “Terrorism is the main tool of Jihadists, claiming to defeat the West and its culture.

    “There is no way to negotiate with Jihadists, but to defeat them. This is the case with the Iranian Shia Revolutionary regime, as well as the Sunni Wahabbi ‘Al Qaeda’, or the Sunni Moslem Brotherhood Hamas.”

    “These regimes and organizations should be defeated politically, economically, militarily and more important ideologically.”

    “It should be a decisive victory, although it is not going to be a swift one. Western democracies have no choice but to win this 3rd World War.”

    Moshe Yaalon

    There is no other pretext – these words are the raison d’etre, but reason is disguise. Yaalon is the commander of deception – the infiltration unit or ‘Team C’ – the dark side, working in the shadows to manipulate what I call the’living dead’ – the ‘anti-Muslims’ – reality distorted from unnatural soperifics, perversion and debauchery; they are the actors of Islamic terrorism. They are the quintessential ‘patsies’ – who do and die.

    Yaalon reports to the CPD with a ‘blueprint’ an individual plan, never tribal, totalitarian, that must be followed implicitly without the knowledge of its constructs which are never ever mentioned. The threat is advanced by ‘Team B’ while ‘Team A’ struggle to unravel the details using the media tools, always after the event.

    This where the fight is focused – it is deadly, unnerving and now they will confront me; only your support, your knowing will help save me – the tide has turned today.

  133. Alfred

    7 Nov, 2010 - 12:40 am

    I am not sure why everyone is getting so upset about Larry calling Roderick nuts. When has Larry not intimated it to be his considered judgement that we’re all nuts. And who knows, maybe we are. But articulately nuts.

    Come to think of it, Larry’s almost certainly totally nuts too, why else does he keep coming back: obsessive compulsive abusive disorder, I should think. Hey, Larry, welcome aboard.

  134. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Nov, 2010 - 1:11 am

    @ Alfred; @ all who have an issue with Larry,

    Only “articulately nuts” ?” what about wannabe funny nuts as well?

    Larry decides this day he will play doctor, actually psychiatrist ( look up on this thread and at what time precisely he decided).

    His first patient was Roderick.

    “Come in Roderick”, says Larry. Just lay down on that couch.

    Roderick complies. ” So what is the complaint Rod?”

    Roderick says, “Well doctor Larry, I find that I have this recurring dream, and have been having it for weeks.”

    ” So what do you dream Roderick?”

    ” Every time in the dream, I find myself at the bottom of the sea, and I dream that I have the shivers ?” can you tell me what’s wrong?”

    “Easy” says Larry.

    ” So what is it?” asks Roderick.

    ” You are a nervous wreck”

    Ha… ha… . ( sick!) … .yuck!

    Final one. How do you confuse Larry? Let him into a round room, tell him he is not welcome ?” then as punishment ?” tell him to go stand in the corner.

  135. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Nov, 2010 - 1:24 am

    Final one …final one…promise…promise.

    Just to prove that Larry is a good psychiatrist and is sensible and logical.

    Roderick and Larry left the doctor’s office together, and happened to be going in the same direction. As they walked, Roderick saw a dog licking his nuts and said to Larry, ” I wish I could do that.”

    Larry promptly replied, ” I suggest you don’t – the dog will bite you.”

    Oh yuck …puke…strike out..delete, outrageous…ban him ….not me!

  136. Larry from St. Louie

    7 Nov, 2010 - 2:44 am

    Bwahahaha-ah

    I write reams of this shit every day,

    I’m not the only one either!

    Sitting in the courtyard with Uncle Sam

    Where the heat comin’ from Brotherman Brotherman

    You’re just feeling some of the magic

    But you’re feelin’ it

  137. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Nov, 2010 - 2:58 am

    @ Larry,

    ” I write reams of this shit every day”

    I don’t believe you for a minute lawyer man – and wannabe psychiatrist.

    Just post the ream that you wrote today – since you did say:-

    ” I write reams of this shit every day”

    Post today’s ream – or else we may begin to believe to think you are a liar Larry – but, you can redeem ( re-ream – ha…ha..) yourself. So – we all wait.

  138. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Nov, 2010 - 3:04 am

    “Where the heat comin’ from…”

    and ” I write reams of this shit every day”

    So – post the shit Larry – go on do it… or we all will think that you are a liar – a wannabe psychiatrist – a potential humourist. Come on Larry – do it – POST!

  139. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Nov, 2010 - 3:10 am

    @ Larry,

    Actually – I take it all back. Don’t be bothered to re-post – I just saw all the shit you posted above today…and yesterday….and the day before …and the day before that…and …sorry …ran out of ink..and it’s my bedtime.

  140. Brendan

    7 Nov, 2010 - 7:58 am

    “The “left”, insofar as it exists, represents only these state sector vested interests.”

    Craig Craig, you are smarter than that. Ignore the false dichotomy: the left do. Nobody – I mean nobody – on the left thinks that silly pay scales for senior boorocats is fair. Seriously dude, I can only presume that you are having a bad day, or are feeling ill: the left loathe the private-sector pay rates that a very few can garner in the public sector. This is Daily Heil stuff.

  141. somebody

    7 Nov, 2010 - 8:21 am

    Two good articles from the Herald Scotland.

    The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has been accused of a “catalogue of blunders” after admitting there have been 16 crashes involving British nuclear-powered submarines since 1988.

    More than half of the accidents were in seas around Scotland. According to critics, the repeated errors that caused the accidents suggest that the MoD has failed to learn from past mistakes. A serious incident in the future could cause radioactivity to leak and put public health at risk, they warn.

    The Royal Navy’s newest nuclear submarine, HMS Astute, is being repaired at the Faslane naval base on the Clyde after it ran aground for 10 hours near the Skye Bridge on October 22. It emerged last week that one of the boat’s fins was damaged in a collision with a tug trying to rescue it.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/revealed-mod-admits-to-16-nuclear-submarine-crashes-1.1066455

    and

    Here’s one to ponder. When is a war criminal not a war criminal? The answer: when you’re an Israeli. This appears to be the premise the British Government would like us to sign up to, if Downing Street’s latest willingness to dance to Jerusalem’s tune is anything to go by.

    Foreign Secretary William Hague had barely set foot in the unholy land this week on his first official visit when the Israelis were springing the mother of all diplomatic ambushes. British officials were said to be “irritated” that Israel had suddenly decided to suspend “strategic dialogue” with Britain over defence and security issues in protest at attempts to use British law to prosecute visiting Israeli officials for war crimes.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/guest-commentary/it-is-criminal-how-britain-grovels-to-israeli-bullying-1.1066162

  142. Vronsky

    7 Nov, 2010 - 8:31 am

    When Willie McRae set out to commit suicide, here’s what he took with him (from police receipts at the link above):

    Smaller Black attache case containing

    1 full bottle of Glenmorangie Whisky

    Various loose papers

    3 shirts

    2 pillow cases

    1 pair pyjamas

    2 pairs of socks

    7 handkerchiefs

    2 pairs pants

    1 black tie

    1 Cardigan

    Blue case containing various cuff links and tie pins.

    1 Razor.

    Black leather pen case.

    1 Brown Leather Brief Case containing Various business documents.

  143. Suhayl Saadi

    7 Nov, 2010 - 8:41 am

    Yes. Interesting that within the SNP, people aren’t keen to talk about it. Even though Winnie Ewing tried to get to the bottom of it and was stonewalled by the authorities, including by people within the authorities in the legal sector whom she knew and had trained with, etc. etc.

    The whole thing really stinks.

    Silkwood in Scotland?

    In relation to the troll, I would suggest that from now on message needs to be simply to quote Craig’s original post stating that that specific troll-team is banned from this site. No interaction, no response to provocation, no provocation, no summoning, no conversation. Complete stonewalling.

    Yes, we can do it too.

  144. Suhayl Saadi

    7 Nov, 2010 - 8:51 am

    Here is Craig’s original post on the matter:

    “I find myself obliged to ban Larry from St Louis from commenting on this blog.” Craig Murray, July 8th 2010

    Copy and paste it, together with the attribution and date, whenever and wherever the troll team appears. No further elaboration is necessary. They will attempt to provoke and will continue to attack esp. Roderick Russell. In my view, it would be best that be dealt with in exactly the same way.

    Now that many of the various troll teams operating here have been exposed – though I’m sure there are other, more subtle ones who continue to earn some money on the side through a number of psy-op and cyberinterference techniques – it’s time definitively to dispense with the one who has been active on this thread in recent days.

    Now, back to ‘democracy and corruption’. I would agree with ‘peacewisher’ (on another thread) who made the excellent point that such manifestations themselves represent an attack on free speech and democracy.

  145. Sunday Mail Kazakhstan

    7 Nov, 2010 - 10:39 am

    Interesting background on Kazakhstan dictator from Sunday Mail

  146. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    7 Nov, 2010 - 11:57 am

    I forgot to give you the link – here is ‘Team B’-

    http://tinyurl.com/team-b-cpd

  147. Ruth

    7 Nov, 2010 - 12:23 pm

    This extract from the Guardian today about the illegal rave in London is very interesting indeed particularly the quote on politicians and young people by Duncan Dick, deputy editor of Mixmag, who said, “They pulled the ladder up behind them. These guys went to university for free. You’d think when they got into power they might also stop criminalising people for going to raves as they did when they were younger. It’s collective amnesia, total hypocrisy.”

    He predicts that as the coalition’s policies bite deeper a fresh counter-culture of like-minded people who share hedonistic experiences, but also a distrust of the state, could be fostered. “It’s got the potential to be militant. Thatcher’s saying was that there is ‘no such thing as society’, but if you’ve gone to an illegal rave organised on Facebook and there’s 400 people, there’s your community. If those people start getting involved in politics you have a community ready to become militant.”

    Maybe it’s the older generation ‘who had it all’ who should be taking on the state. They have the time and money.

  148. Anonymous

    7 Nov, 2010 - 12:29 pm

    Hey Larry from St. Louise,

    Isn’t Monsanto based in your parts, Nuff said, game over….thanks for tuning in…

  149. anno

    7 Nov, 2010 - 12:31 pm

    Zionists do believe that they can defeat their Creator ideologically. They amass criminal wealth through the financial systems which impresses many and distresses the public they stole it from even more. But they forgot to read the message from their own books, i.e. the ones given to Moses and Jesus , or from the revised and illustrated edition, the Qur’an, that this criminal wealth will earn them disgrace in this life and the hereafter.

    The only question is why so many of the political class are so ignorant of the Divine message that they are deceived by the Zionist spin. Take my own M.P. Liam Byrne. His pockets are bulging with shares and consultancies which he earned from taking up Blair’s Zionist cause. Little men are bought up and big leaders are blackmailed.

    But the Qur’an says that if they brought the whole world and as much again, to redeem themselves on the day of judgement, it will not be accepted from them. Or the Gospels, ‘What profit is it that a man should gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?’ Signing for the massacring of Muslims in Iraq, Philistine and Afghanistan etc. is a right, good, direct route to Hell. Why are they incapable of understanding?

    And more to the point, why do the Asian Muslims vote for them?

  150. Larry from St. Louis

    7 Nov, 2010 - 12:48 pm

    I have to make my quota today, so sorry for this.

    Suhayl, I sincerely hope that you never treated one patient back when you had some claim to being a medical doctor. Clearly you’re incompetent.

  151. anno

    7 Nov, 2010 - 12:48 pm

    peace be upon them

  152. anno

    7 Nov, 2010 - 12:58 pm

    Yemeni ink bombs planted by CIA.

  153. somebody

    7 Nov, 2010 - 1:13 pm

    No lessons were learnt from 1939-45.

    Israeli government documents show deliberate policy to keep Gazans at near-starvation levels

    Saed Bannoura IMEMC, November 6, 2010

    Documents whose existence were denied by the Israeli government for over a year have been released after a legal battle led by Israeli human rights group Gisha. The documents reveal a deliberate policy by the Israeli government in which the dietary needs for the population of Gaza are chillingly calculated, and the amounts of food let in by the Israeli government measured to remain just enough to keep the population alive at a near-starvation level. This documents the statement made by a number of Israeli officials that they are “putting the people of Gaza on a diet”.

    /….

    http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m71591&hd=&size=1&l=e

  154. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    7 Nov, 2010 - 1:41 pm

    The CPD reports to the CFR, the legitimate world facing American think tank.

    So what priorities have the CFR set and how do they affect our world. A tough question to answer but some things are certain.

    1. Pressure Britain to cut domestic spending regardless of suffering and unemployment to maintain its military strength.

    2. Get the Republicans back into office and maintain funds and man-power permanently in Afghanistan.

    3. Work to create the right government in Iraq to enable an accord to be signed that keeps 20,000 American troops in Iraq permanently.

    4. Regime change in Iran.

    5. More dollars to Pakistan while keeping their feet firmly close to the fire.

    The CPD will be working behind the scenes to achieve these aims through terrorism, fear, subversion and deception.

  155. somebody

    7 Nov, 2010 - 2:13 pm

  156. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    7 Nov, 2010 - 2:36 pm

    Sorry ‘somebody’ CPD = The Committee on Present Danger

    http://www.committeeonthepresentdanger.org

    CFR – Council of Foreign Relations

    http://www.cfr.org

    Thanks for the ‘Gisha’ report very interesting.

  157. Anonymous

    7 Nov, 2010 - 2:52 pm

    re rave: one party goer also added ‘this is the sound of the government getting fucked by a kick drum’
    :)

  158. Anonymous

    7 Nov, 2010 - 2:58 pm

    CRAIG

    (sorry for the attempt to grab your attention, which, by the way, I hope worked!)

    I burdeon you with this task…

    LEAD the TAX revolt that will cause the collapse the system so that it can be built anew.

    Come on Craig. The time for this is now. We need someone who we can trust.

    Please Craig…

    LEAD THE TAX REVOLT.

    (you know it makes sense. There is no other choice.)

  159. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Nov, 2010 - 5:11 pm

    @ Mark,

    CFR – Council of Foreign Relations – surely not.

    Courtenay Francis Raymond (CFR)- my first three names no less.

  160. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Nov, 2010 - 5:15 pm

    @ Larry,

    By reference to Craig’s directive:-

    “I find myself obliged to ban Larry from St Louis from commenting on this blog.” Craig Murray, July 8th 2010

    I take it that by reference to that, these several months later you are finally willing to comply.

    You have posed as a psychiatrist, so you might, if you keep posting have to decipher what “AA” means = Adult Abuser, for all that you have inflicted.

    Should you return, then further diagnosis will be needed. For someone persistently trolling despite just about every geniuine blogger disapproval of your presence – then your return at any time will have to be termed, literally “self-abuse”.

    Goodbye Larry and happy riddance.

  161. Apostate

    7 Nov, 2010 - 5:20 pm

    Bet the powers that be are quaking in their boots at the thought that Craig Murray just worked out we’ve got something of a democratic deficit problem here in UK.

    I mean the controlled opposition led by said,Murray,may even be on the point of a tax revolt!

    This is the same air-headed tea-party controlled opposition they’ve got in the US!

    The leader gets up on a soap-box one day and denounces Zionism as “bull-shit”!

    The next day he’s denouncing anyone who challenges “Holocaust” fundamentalism as “anti-semitic”!

    Yep,the central bankers must be just shitting themselves!

    LMAO! You sad bunch of saps!

  162. Vronsky

    7 Nov, 2010 - 5:28 pm

    “But the Qur’an says that if they brought the whole world and as much again, to redeem themselves on the day of judgement, it will not be accepted from them. Or the Gospels, ‘What profit is it that a man should gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?’”

    Trouble is, anno, that’s all terribly abstract. Gaining the whole world is definitely going to be fun, while losing your soul is maybe not something you’d notice. These guys want to be nice and comfortable now, in this life. The next life is a bridge they’ll cross if and when they get to it. However I wouldn’t be surprised if, looking around them, they didn’t see an awful lot of evidence that such gods as might exist must be unprincipled bastards like themselves, so they’ll probably be OK. Altogether now:

    You will eat, bye and bye,

    In that glorious land above the sky;

    Work and pray, live on hay,

    You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.

  163. Vronsky

    7 Nov, 2010 - 6:01 pm

    Oh my lord. History repeats itself – first as tragedy then as comedy, etc. etc.. Here are the Lib Dems abolishing tuition fees *again* – promise me you’ll keep a straight face. You’ll still need to pay them of course, but they aren’t ‘fees’ anymore – it’s a ‘graduate contribution’.

    Elucidate, Craig, please. This is getting more abstruse than anno’s theology. Hey, that makes me think – why can’t fees be deferred until the Afterlife? I bet all yer squeaky clean, loftily spiritual Lib Dems believe all that stuff. Must be some management accountant reading this who’d love to to start figuring discounted cash flows with net present values based on eternity.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/07/scrap-tuition-fees-we-have

  164. Steelback

    7 Nov, 2010 - 6:37 pm

    The Guardian?

    Are you fucking serious,pal?

    Go fly one!

  165. sean

    7 Nov, 2010 - 6:39 pm

    “The “left”, insofar as it exists, represents only these state sector vested interests.”

    Sorry, that’s utter bollocks – and the second time you’ve tried that one on. Before you make any pronouncements about the left in this country, you should probably reacquaint yourself with it.

  166. anno

    7 Nov, 2010 - 6:41 pm

    Vronsky. My theology is not abstruse. Every hotel room in the UK is equipped with a copy of the Gospels if you haven’t got one at home. Politicians do not seem to have left the religious baby-milk stage. One would have thought that before they entered into a war on terror against Islam, they might have checked up on their own beliefs and those of the Muslims.

    Or do we just take all our information from Zionist Terror Experts like Dr Peter Neumann of Kings College London on File on Four about Somalia this evening?

    Religious information is sub-contracted to Jews? All information not given by official Jewish commentators to the world media is by definition abstruse?

  167. technicolour

    7 Nov, 2010 - 6:51 pm

    oh, no anno. Please go and play with apostatesteelback if you’re going to start on that one – it is banned for anti-semitism, by the way.

  168. anno

    7 Nov, 2010 - 7:06 pm

    So we have explosives intended to explode in air, according to our prime minister, in the holds of our passenger planes. And when we seek expert advice about such terrorist threats, we consult Jewish experts. We are not even allowed to consider that scenario as biassed, without standing accused of anti-semitism. You anti-religionists are weird.

  169. technicolour

    7 Nov, 2010 - 7:17 pm

    i am perfectly fine with religion: I don’t bother it and it doesn’t bother me. You reveal your own bias, anno.

  170. technicolour

    7 Nov, 2010 - 7:35 pm

    try ‘israeli government experts’, for example.

  171. anno

    7 Nov, 2010 - 7:51 pm

    okay, these semi-religious prime ministers are weird, because they pretend that a pathetically transparent false-flag piece of media fluff is a major attack against civilisation, and do not condemn the outpourings of tripe that flow out of the BBC, trying to hype up the non-incident into a justification for further attacks on sovereign Muslim nations.

    They place the World Service into the hands of these trusted nutters? Craig’s right, there is no hope at all, if this is the state of UK politics. By the way I’m not against the Zionist experts for anything other than their offence of lying. I am anti-lying. That is my bias, I agree.

  172. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    7 Nov, 2010 - 9:29 pm

    Moshe Yaalon has said, “Terrorism is the main tool of Jihadists, claiming to defeat the West and its culture.

    There is no way to negotiate with Jihadists, but to defeat them. This is the case with the Iranian Shia Revolutionary regime, as well as the Sunni Wahabbi ‘Al Qaeda’, or the Sunni Moslem Brotherhood Hamas.

    These regimes and organizations should be defeated politically, economically, militarily and more important ideologically.

    It should be a decisive victory, although it is not going to be a swift one. Western democracies have no choice but to win this 3rd World War.”

    There is no other pretext – these words are the raison d’etre for the ‘War on Terror, but reason is disguise. Yaalon is the Emporer of deception, the infiltration unit or the invisible ‘Team C’ – the dark side, working in the shadows to manipulate what I call the ‘living dead’ – the ‘anti-Muslims’ – reality distorted from unnatural soperifics, perversion and debauchery; they are the actors of Islamic terrorism. They are the quintessential ‘patsies’ – who do and die.

    Yaalon reports to the Committee on Present Danger with a ‘blueprint’ an individual plan, never tribal, totalitarian, that must be followed implicitly without the knowledge of its constructs which are never ever disclosed. The threat is advanced by a ‘Team B’ within the CPR, while ‘Team A’ within the CIA/SIS struggle to ‘unravel’ the details using the media and it’s tools, always after the event and public facing.

    No mortal can fight an ‘invisible’ threat therefore my fight is focused on ‘Team B’ who report to the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) – it is deadly, unnerving and now they will confront me in ways most subtle; only your support, your knowing will help save me – the tide is turning and the ‘stew of corruption’ has boiled over, it’s ingredients exposed.

  173. Polo

    7 Nov, 2010 - 10:23 pm

    A thought for the time of year that’s in it.

    I was very upset to learn, on Michael Palin’s programme on WWI, that some generals sent their troops into combat and death as late as 15 minutes before the armistice, which they knew was going to come into effect, and after which the same troops could have walked unharmed into the disputed territory.

    Madness and obsession in this sphere are not recent inventions.

    Dehumanise the enemy and anything is possible. But not forgivable.

    Lest we forget.

  174. Apostate

    7 Nov, 2010 - 10:29 pm

    Holy shit!

    This site is getting far too “antisemitic”. What with people denouncing Jewish terror experts-it can’t be right!

    Whatever next?

    The information you get is the stuff you’re stuck with and we’ve got so used to your simply regurgitating it ad infinitum it makes us very suspicious that some of you are now gainsaying it with impunity.

    Have you guys finally broken free of your Franfurt School PC programming?

    The Israeli Lobby and its neo-con allies initiated the “War on Terror” and have been telling us what an evil warlike religion Islam is for decades.

    Isn’t it about time some of you guys started to look carefully at the Talmud or the Zohar for evidence of deceit and genocide in abundance?

    Sorry to be so “antisemitic” as to even suggest such a course but I don’t think the people who are causing all the problems in the world right now are “semites” at all anyway.

    Nor are the most powerful Jewish people in the world at all sympathetic to Judaism,especially in its Orthodox manifestations.

    These are just the lies you believe and will therefore never be able to do anything whatever about.

    What’s it like having all the cultural awareness of the beasts of the fucking field?

  175. Clydebuilt

    7 Nov, 2010 - 10:40 pm

    Craig

    quote ” I see no hope”

    As long as there’s guys like you around there is hope. Not a lot but still hope.

    Keep yer pekkker up, and start taking it a LOT EASIER.

    Clydebuilt

  176. somebody

    7 Nov, 2010 - 11:04 pm

  177. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 12:37 am

    If anyone thinks I have gone totally nuts then look and listen to Russ Baker, a good investigative journalist who has exposed in his book ‘Family of Secrets’ a number of deceptions carried out by ‘players’ or operatives working for a group of power brokers (multi-billionaires)who have designs on shaping the world to their end.

    Russ’s book has exposed the ‘elimination’ (his word) of John F Kennedy and the ‘Watergate plot’ to ‘drive Nixon out of office’ firmly pointing a finger at George HW Bush whose association with the CIA goes back to 1953. He uses the term ‘rolling coup d’etat’ to describe eliminating the annoyances and problems caused by democratically leaders ‘who do not comply.’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5APMGiTbNCk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5FcXbeoRj4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKFtfy0vYmw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zJhWr8v9M

    While Russ targets individual players, I am targeting the group’s connection to ‘Team C’ that resides within the Israeli secret services and is funded indirectly by the Saudis which to anyone sounds absurd unless you are aware of a limited cooperation between the two countries as demonstrated earlier this year when Israeli military equipment was unloaded to a new base just over 8km outside the northwestern city of Tabuk, the closest Saudi city to Israel, located just south of Jordan.

  178. anno

    8 Nov, 2010 - 3:34 am

    ‘The Left in so far as it exists, represents only these state sector interests.’

    Are these highly paid bureaucrats in fact technocrats? Is this Craig’s Liberalism frowning on professionalism in politics? To have a command of 1/ politics, 2/ social sciences, 3/ economics and 4/ technical service provision sciences, would command a high salary, in my opinion.

    What I object to with tuition fees is that only the seriously wealthy whose families have learnt to be good little Thatcher-Tory, motivated-only-by-money capitalists will now be able to risk going to university. And another group who will be able to afford to go to university will be those whose families belong to the swindling, financial classes. There they can acquire the patina of education to combine with their agenda of cheating and lying, to become the political professionals of the future.

    David Cameron has started to carve into the fat rump of John Prescott’s over-regulated Britain, with its multiple layers of jobs for the boys experts, all of them totally ignored by the actual tradesmen who go out and screw things onto ceilings. It seems that David Cameron wants to shape this country into his own mould. A fanatically pro-banking, pro-Israel, pro-stitute of Zionism.

    I have to agree with Apostate that this has been going on for quite a long time. I survived the last batch of rancid Toryism, much purged and chastened, and entered Islam. I can’t say that without the rennet of Thatcher’s sado-monetarism, I would have arrived at the same destination. All I wanted to do was make things. Then, when I arrived in Islam, all I wanted to do was read the Qur’an. Without Blair’s sado-Zionism, I would never have become radicalised into commenting on politics.

    I hope that the disenfranchised students of this country will become radicalised. ‘They plan and Allah plans, and Allah is the best of planners.’ Amen.

  179. glenn

    8 Nov, 2010 - 4:47 am

    We occasionally like to end on a consensual note. My recommendation for the week:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uOxOgm5jQ4

  180. Vronsky

    8 Nov, 2010 - 9:12 am

    “The Guardian?

    Are you fucking serious,pal?

    Go fly one!”

    Continuing the consensus: absolutely spot-on, steelback. The Grauniad is the most reactionary of them all as far as I can see, all the worse for posing as ‘liberal’.

    But I was drawing attention to one particularly awful piece of nonsense, especially infuriating as the same lie was told in Scotland some years ago.

    Maybe old lies are the best. Are there archetytpal lies, like archetypal stories? Suhayl?

  181. nomadron

    8 Nov, 2010 - 10:24 am

    Craig’s original post was actually very important – and it is very sad that few of the responses have risen to the challenge. Why can’t we have a bit more humility in these threads? Instead of opinions, can people not perhaps share more analytically some of the perspectives which are out there on the possibilities of political and social action? I’ve just finished reading the inspiring 2003 book “One No and Many Yeses” by Paul Kingsnorth. At other levels there are the writings of David Korten and Olin Wright’s recent “Envisioning Realistic Utopias”.

    Craig is absolutely right that political parties and corporations remain the last protected species – and we should focus our energies on exploring why this is so – and how we change it

    Thanks to the guy who gave the Havel quote.

  182. somebody

    8 Nov, 2010 - 10:57 am

    Poppies

    Read Ben Griffin via Wales on Sunday, and the lie in the last line. I know that our Arab sisters and brothers know there are substantial numbers of people here and in other whitey states who stand with them against genocidal war. There is NO WAY of expressing it except through feeble word. They have intimidated marchers and marches are infiltrated. I have said we should be taking down the ‘Palace of Westminster’ stone by stone.

    Ex-SAS soldier blasts Poppy Appeal as a ‘political tool’

    Nov 7 2010 by Lisa Jones, Wales On Sunday

    THE true meaning of the poppy is being forgotten as it becomes a political tool to support current wars, a former elite soldier has claimed.

    Ben Griffin, the first SAS soldier to refuse to go into combat, also said the use of the word “hero” to describe soldiers glorified war and was an “attempt to stifle criticism” of conflicts the UK is currently fighting.

    Mr Griffin’s claims echo an increasing body of opinion that the Royal British Legion’s Poppy Appeal’s promotion by key political and cultural figures is undermining the true message of Remembrance Day.

    The Royal British Legion began using the poppy as a symbol for fundraising in the 1920s. Money used goes to help wounded servicemen past and serving and their families.

    It also marks Remembrance Day, held on the second Sunday in November, which is usually the Sunday nearest to November 11, the date in 1918 on which World War I ended.

    It commemorates the sacrifices of members of the armed forces and of civilians.

    But Mr Griffin, who quit the army in 2005 on moral grounds, claims it has been turned into a “month-long drum roll of support for current wars”.

    Griffin, who went to school in Machynlleth and Swansea, told Wales On Sunday: “This year’s [national] campaign was launched by inviting The Saturdays to frolic half naked in a sea of poppies.

    “The judges on X Factor [at the request of the Royal British Legion] have taken to wearing grotesque poppy fashion items.

    “The RBL would say they are modernising and appealing to a younger generation. I disagree. I think that their stunts trivialise, normalise and sanitise war.”

    Griffin, now a London ambulance driver who served for eight years in the Parachute Regiment, went on: “The use of the word ‘hero’ glorifies war and glosses over the ugly reality.

    “War is nothing like a John Wayne movie. There is nothing heroic about being blown up in a vehicle, there is nothing heroic about being shot in an ambush and there is nothing heroic about the deaths of countless civilians.

    “Calling our soldiers heroes is an attempt to stifle criticism of the wars we are fighting in.

    “It leads us to that most subtle piece of propaganda: You might not support the war but you must support our heroes, ergo you support the war.

    “It is revealing that those who send our forces to war and those that spread war propaganda are the ones who choose to wear poppies weeks in advance of Armistice Day.”

    Peace Pledge Union spokesman Albert Beale said: “Politicians clothe themselves in the red poppy. There’s something about a Remembrance Day ceremony that blinds you to reality.

    “There’s also the sense that if you don’t wear the red poppy, you are not supporting our boys.

    “Some people support them because of their suffering ?” but not the political aim they are being sent out to Afghanistan to fulfil.

    “It is being used by politicians to support their agenda.”

    Adam Johannes, of the Stop the War Coalition in Cardiff, said: “The politicians who lay wreaths at the Cenotaph will use the poppy to drum up support for continued unjust and unwinnable wars. It is no accident that we have seen an increase in the last five years of military parades, the invention of Armed Forces Day, militarism and jingoism.”

    But former UN ambassador Sir Emyr Jones Parry disagreed, saying: “The poppy doesn’t glorify or seek to justify war, but it rightly recognises the sacrifices made by individuals on behalf of their country.”

    And relatives of servicemen also questioned the claims.

    Terrence Flowers, 79, from Blackwood, whose grandson Miykael Martin is serving in Afghanistan, where he has twice been shot, said what mattered was that Poppy Appeal money got to the right people.

    He said: “I’m supportive of the army, but not the reason they’re fighting.”

    Robert Lee, the British Legion’s spokesman, said: “There is nothing in our appeal or campaigning which supports, or does not support, war: We are totally neutral.”

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/11/07/ex-sas-soldier-blasts-poppy-appeal-as-a-political-tool-91466-27614172/

  183. angrysoba

    8 Nov, 2010 - 11:56 am

    “And for angrysoba to get so narked about me trying to keep my bottom clean using omni-sprayed-on public toilets, (my daughter tells me this can also occur in ladies toilets if everyone else decides not to sit down on the dirty toilet seat), .. shows that he knows that only Islam has the answers.”

    Ermm…yes, I am sure that Islam has the “answer” to everything.

    What to eat. How to have sex. Who to have sex with. How much of the woman’s labia should be cut off despite God’s perfect design. At what length a trouser leg should be. Who to stone. When to stone them. What should be done with music. What should be done with homosexuals.

    The problem is that anno knows all the answers to these questions and what to be done with those who disagree but he probably can’t find more than five other people who agree with him to the exact letter of the law. Sure, there’ll be five others who think this has been cosmically revealed to slightly different specifications and he’ll no doubt consider them filthy.

    Anyway anno, the Book of Mormon says you’re wrong and that is the word of God.

  184. Clark

    8 Nov, 2010 - 12:30 pm

    Anno,

    Angrysoba,

    do you think it is possible to find some principle, some point of fundamental agreement between the various faiths that could lead to better mutual understanding and peace? I think the main problem is that such a principle probably doesn’t fit well into human language. Some such higher principle is urging me now; I feel like admonishing you both not to pick a fight, but then realise that to do so would amount to ME picking a fight with both of you.

  185. Clark

    8 Nov, 2010 - 12:32 pm

    So argue about the toilet if you want; either it’s God’s will, or it’s god swill.

  186. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 1:09 pm

    You have revealed your character by that post Angry. Being cynical is a downward spiral and achieves nothing. My wife’s father belonged to the Church of Latter Day Saints and he spent his life helping others, never trashing another’s faith.

  187. Clark

    8 Nov, 2010 - 1:21 pm

    Back on-topic, here’s that link again to the petition on EU corporate lobbying:

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_lobby_rules/

  188. Vronsky

    8 Nov, 2010 - 2:55 pm

    “do you think it is possible to find some principle, some point of fundamental agreement between the various faiths that could lead to better mutual understanding and peace?”

    I know you’re not asking me, but it is an interesting question. Insofar as I can see any rational, non-malign reasons for religion, among the few is defining the identity of a group such that its members have a strong feeling of inclusion and an equally strong sense of the ‘otherness’ of others. This was probably of evolutionary value: johnny-no-mates didn’t live long. Religion arose as part of the defensive shell of early communities. Closely related, religion is an imaginary (but useful) bulwark against a capricious and uncaring world. I interpret the resurgence of ‘faith’ in the USA in this light – most people there live insecure and worritsome lives.

    But religion became exploited later for its political utility. The political uses of religion are fairly obvious: it is worth inculcating from childhood the notion of unquestionable authority, accounting it a virtue to be able to suppress instinctive alarm at the absurdity of that authority. A professional politician usually doesn’t waste much time before assuring us of his deep religious conviction: like God he is Good, it just might not always seem so. The PR advisers (who resumably have the relevant statistics to hand) see these professions of faith as giving comfort. They make me very anxious.

    Anyway, my answer to your question is ‘no’, but on two counts:

    (1) religion was invented to define and reinforce difference

    (2) this has been slightly adapted for use as a political instrument

    On both counts, agreement is illogical – it’s not what religion is for. If you want agreement get rid of religion, or at least get it out of politics.

    My question for Clark (or anyone else killing time at the keyboard). Which is more dangerous: a politician who feigns religious belief, or one who actually has it?

    a~~

    On Latter Day Saints (LDS), a story. I’m an old guy, and have maybe told you this before, but act interested anyway. My partner’s sister works with the disadvantaged in a corner of Utah. Lots of LDS around there – also lots of Spanish speakers, so it’s lucky she’s bilingual, having lived a while in Mexico. Going after one particular problem she knocked on a door. Out came the tenant, to demand in Spanish ‘Are you LDS?’ Sis-in-law hears this entirely in Spanish as ‘are you el diez?’ Are you a ten? She replies (modestly) that she thinks she is probably about a 7 with her makeup on, and then it takes a while to get back to the point.

    @mark

    Signed

  189. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 3:16 pm

    On corruption, Hillary Clinton has urged for a power-share deal in Iraq. America wants Eyad Allawi in control. His Iraq National Accord (INA) is CIA sponsored and Allawi is related to CIA asset Chalabi who conjured the 45 minute WMD lie.

    As usual we hear more rhetoric of Al-Qaeda taking advantage of the power vaccum, when in fact Nouri al-Badran another known secret agent and member of the INA is, I believe, behind the attacks on shiites loyal to al-Maliki.

    I have recently learned of a plot exposed by doctorsforIraq to assassinate Prime-Minister Nuri al-Maliki and I have made that known to Iranian officials.

    It is about time America stopped interfering in Iraq by stoking an insurgency. You have failed miserably in Iraq America so please take the British lead and bugger-off.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayad_Allawi

  190. Roderick Russell

    8 Nov, 2010 - 5:07 pm

    COURTENAY BARNETT ?” Your comments Nov 7 – !:11 AM & 1:24 AM. I found your comments yesterday to be distasteful and out of character for you. And then I remembered that you were working in the Caribbean area (T & C) and wondered if you had heard any rumours that appeared to show me in a bad light and that might cause these comments.

    Just to recap, you will recall from earlier posting on August 29 that I too had worked in the Caribbean – Indeed, I had worked on some potential time share projects that related to Cuba, and in Jamaica as CFO of Sandals Resorts International (the hotel management arm of Sandals). I did an excellent job in all respects. But then when one is dealing with a manufactured (intelligence agency driven) slander campaign it can come from all angles, where one least expects it. As Cartoonist said about Zerzetsen (Zerzetsen) slanders … “It’s about manipulating people or groups of people by typical STASI methods (hearsay, gossip, lies, spreading rumours about someone … the list goes on).”

    I found your comments yesterday to be completely out of character for you, and I wondered why. Then I recalled you were working in the T&C and almost certainly will have met * several people * who do business in the relatively small T&C community and know of me. For example, as a lawyer yourself, do you perhaps know my old friend Ian Phillipson – who was the Sandals lawyer, and partner to a former Prime Minister of Jamaica?? You shouldn’t have heard anything negative about me from any source whatsoever. But if you have, you do me a favour by telling me — Is there anything you should be telling me??

  191. Alfred

    8 Nov, 2010 - 6:13 pm

    Roderick,

    I assumed from the comments you refer to that Courtenay Barnett had simply consumed too much of the local variety of rum!

    PS, You should consider returning to BC. Beautiful day in Victoria today: blue sky, 12 degrees or thereabouts and the political situation quite wonderful. A recent opinion survey showed the government with an approval rating of 6%. Yes, I said 6%, that is not a typo. LOL.

  192. Alfred

    8 Nov, 2010 - 6:22 pm

    Re: Poppies and Mcrae’s

    Politicians will use anything to justify anything including Remembrance Day to justify war. But it is perfectly reasonable to be a vehement opponent of the current wars and yet buy a poppy out of respect for veterans of all wars, including the present one, however unjustified.

    The military do not decide who to fight, the civilian authorities do. Since civil society rests ultimately on force, we need and must therefore respect the military while always challenging the immoral or illegal use of military force.

    In Flanders Fields

    By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)

    Canadian Army

    In Flanders Fields the poppies blow

    Between the crosses row on row,

    That mark our place; and in the sky

    The larks, still bravely singing, fly

    Scarce heard amid the guns below.

    We are the Dead. Short days ago

    We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,

    Loved and were loved, and now we lie

    In Flanders fields.

    Take up our quarrel with the foe:

    To you from failing hands we throw

    The torch; be yours to hold it high.

    If ye break faith with us who die

    We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

    In Flanders fields.

  193. anno

    8 Nov, 2010 - 6:27 pm

    Vronsky

    I agree with everything you say, but add that God invented religion. Islam is a faith which has remained unchanged through many generations, having previously belonged to the Jews and other nations before them, for the benefit of human beings. Its purpose is indeed to discriminate between people and indeed for a political purpose.

    A leader in Islam is commanded to look at each citizen’s case as if it was his own. Do we see David Cameron thinking what it would be like to be poor in this computerised bill society? No, he merely issues quasi-moral sound-bites which distract from the reality that his party’s policies have bankrupted the UK.

    If I was in power, I would be telling people the truth, that until this country re-discovers faith, we will continue to destroy the lives of our young people, continue to launch illegal attacks on weaker sovereign nations, and continue to drift into economic isolation in a world community that still respects us for the civilised society that we used to be before.

    Angrysoba, it is quite true that the enemies of Islam have tried for centuries to cause disagreements inside Islam. They publish false Qur’ans in Arabic and other languages. I don’t belong to any group at all, because every group in Islam tries to create a clique, which is forbidden in the Qur’an. I regard these cliques with their dogmas and their in-people and out-people with even more concern than both of you. Your criticism is absolutely fair.

    When you get Saudi Arabia working with the CIA to create false flag bomb-scares in passenger planes, is it surprising that you get partisan religious leaders deliberately dividing the people over little tiny differences of law. I am with you, cursing them for bringing the truth of Islam into disgrace. Does anybody think that if they can buy silly, empty-headed English politicians from all parties with scraps of shares and directorships, they don’t buy up silly empty-headed mullahs who want to make a name for themselves in the Islamic political sphere?

    The truth of Islam remains, in spite of these corrupters and corruptees. They sold their faith for a pathetically small price, a microphone and a means to control the available women to benefit the members of their group. There are no mosques in England practising straight Islam and if there are any elsewhere, I have yet to find where they are.

  194. Suhayl Saadi

    8 Nov, 2010 - 6:47 pm

    Vronsky, good point: perhaps the archetypal tales (fictions) ARE the archetypal lies: betrayal, quest, etc. etc. The Latin word for lies and the English word, ‘fiction’ are closely etymologically related.

    Btw, with my hat on, I’m a number nine, number nine, number nine…

    On good days, though, “I am not a number, I am a free man!”

  195. Suhayl Saadi

    8 Nov, 2010 - 6:52 pm

    Roderick: I don’t think Courtenay was not fully aware at first of the history of that troll team in relation to the persistent attacks on you, or indeed in general with respect to this blog. I sense he came to realise it after looking back through the posts/threads, etc. I’m sure he can answer for himself, though – this is just my impression.

    What’s T and C, btw, is that ‘Turks and Caicos’? Looks idyllic!

  196. anno

    8 Nov, 2010 - 7:41 pm

    Alfred

    Many thanks for this poem.

    I would go further than you: We respect the military BY challenging the illegal or immoral use of military force.

    Shame on our politicians for posturing respect for the military, without re-engaging with the illegality and immorality of attacking a sovereign nation and an innocent population. We need to hang Tony Blair and strengthen our resolve against false-flag Zionist terrorism, which is constantly being used as a justification for war.

    No one can hide behind the fig-leaf of anti-semitism any more. The Zionists have procured an international agenda against Islam and Muslims. Civilian politicians have bought or been bribed to accept the agenda, apparently thinking that their signing for war does not put blood on their hands. The blood of our servicemen and the blood of those illegally and immorally invaded.

    We need a bronze statue of Tony Blair being hung, erected at the Whitehall Memorial, to remind our politicians that they have a duty of conscience not to follow the lies promulgated by the media and by their party leaders. A duty not to sign for blatantly unnecessary military force. Let this day of cold, November weather remind them of the tens of millions who have recently been displaced by war.

  197. Alfred

    8 Nov, 2010 - 7:49 pm

    “We respect the military BY challenging the illegal or immoral use of military force.”

    Absolutely.

    My doctor’ son was just killed by an IED in Afghanistan while leading his men from the front. Damn it, we didn’t protest the war enough.

  198. anno

    8 Nov, 2010 - 8:12 pm

    To all those religion-hating contributors to these discussions, let us respond to Clark’s plea to find some point of common agreement.

    The motivation of the majority of war-mongers is economic. There is no doubt about that at all.

    The justification, indeed science of justifying war, is provided almost completely by people who are fanatically opposed to another religion. In our present times this has been the proponents of Zionism against the followers of Islam. Are we agreed?

    A lion kills by suffocating a victim by putting its mouth over their face. Another animal has another means of dealing with their victim. You analysers of economic power, follow and expose the antics of the corrupt elite, while I attack the false-justifiers of war, who control our media and our democratic servants at all levels.

    You are not interested in what I am interested in, but my point is valid, that our liberal democracy has been unable to control the excesses of our elites, because of the lies of the Zionists who constantly justify and cover up the excesses of the powerful.

    I don’t expect you to agree with me that these two groups are so intermixed that they are in fact a symbiosis of corruption. But I do believe it, and until you accept it, I am the one who thinks that you are the ones who are wet behind the ears. The lion’s mouth is closing, so it would be better to work together than argue constantly about who’s right. We may find ourselves very soon unable to comment or communicate by this internet medium. Clark is right, we should find some point of mutual agreement before we are suffocated or ripped to pieces by paws and claws.

  199. Suhayl Saadi

    8 Nov, 2010 - 8:58 pm

    Alfred, what a terrible waste of a life. Oh, those poppies… but they never learn. The Front never ended and they’re still marching into a hail of gunfire, for… someone else’s wealth-generation.

  200. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 9:06 pm

    Anno,

    God did not invent religion, man did, from interpretations of God’s messages sent through the prophets.

    Understanding those messages is impossible unless one commits to the divine origin of them. Without that commitment the idea of revelations from God is alienating, incoherent and impossible.

    Thus religion is intended to give an understanding to these messages so that one can commit to the miracle that a creator exists.

    Sadly we know from history that religion has failed, predictably, because we are fallible, never perfect, always flawed.

    Islam, Judaism, christianity can only become ‘straight’ if one has ‘seen’ and understood a miracle, a divine intervention that has changed some aspect of life for the better and moved it closer to the meaning of the original messages. For some that requires reflection or meditation, for others a sudden realisation, for many it passes unnoticed or simply strange and best forgotten. One thing is certain, we all have an opportunity to realise God’s presence is everywhere. If we are aware this leads to an understanding that makes us strive to be better, conscious of our innermost failings and the failings of others.

    That appreciation cannot be forced, it is either learned or we live a life without it.

  201. Suhayl Saadi

    8 Nov, 2010 - 9:12 pm

    Okay, this is a blog of a pal of mine, Lila Rajiva, an Indian-American (as opposed to an American Indian) journalist who I think describes her political position as right libertarian. She wrote the very first book on the CIA’s black sites, Abu Ghraib, etc. Her blog has been systematically attacked by the CIA.

    This will ring bells with Roderick Russell, I’m sure and Ruth too – and rightly so. Lila got personal harassment from the CIA. How dare they do this?!! It’s disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful. The CIA: they are the pustules of the world, they are the snakes of the pit. Not lions, anno, snakes.

    http://mindbodypolitic.com/

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_Rajiva

  202. Roderick Russell

    8 Nov, 2010 - 9:23 pm

    Suhayl Saadi at November 8, 2010 6:52 PM. Yes, hopefully Courtenay will find time for an explanation. I suspect he just came accross one of the untruthful rumors that are spread about to smear me – and naturally believed the rumor since they are all professionally done. That’s what Zerzetsen is. I would like to hear the rumor too.

  203. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 9:53 pm

    Roderick,

    There is no rumour, forget it, just read ‘Courtenay’ again – you will see he is ridiculing Larry’s slippery attempt at staring into the minds of others, in this case your mind, that is why he has involved you.

    Courtney’s insight has surprised me he is an asset as you are, and your experiences are firmly in my conscious.

  204. Suhayl Saadi

    8 Nov, 2010 - 10:06 pm

    Mark, by ‘asset’, I assume you mean in the usual sense of the word, as in ‘you are of benefit to this blog’ and not in the secret service sense of ‘being an asset’. It’s just an interesting double entendre.

  205. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 10:24 pm

    No it was ‘benefit’ – but yes interesrtng Suhayl – indeed the asset may well be an asset.

  206. somebody

    8 Nov, 2010 - 10:37 pm

    Poppy crapoganda contd.

    Right on Celtic. From medialens

    Respect to the celtic fans

    Posted by Chris Shaw on November 8, 2010, 6:24 pm

    Shame of Celtic after fans stage a ‘bloodstained’ protest against wearing Remembrance Day poppies

    Celtic have apologised and launched an investigation after supporters at their Parkhead ground unfurled a huge banner describing the remembrance poppy as ‘bloodstained’.

    The Glasgow club have agreed to wear poppies on their shirts at St Mirren on Remembrance Sunday, which has caused fury among a section of the club’s fans.

    During the 9-0 thrashing against Aberdeen on Saturday, supporters held a banner split into seven parts and covering a large section of supporters, which declared -

    “Your deeds would shame all the devils in Hell. Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan. No bloodstained poppy on our Hoops.”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327697/Celtic-shame-fans-stage-bloodstained-protest-wearing-poppies.html#ixzz14iUlSMeW

    BBC report just as biased as the Daily Mail

    Posted by Chris Shaw on November 8, 2010, 6:28 pm, in reply to “Respect to the celtic fans”

    Lots of voices criticising the Celtic fans, none in support. Good old BBC balance.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/9168655.stm

  207. Polo

    8 Nov, 2010 - 11:15 pm

    I have a complicated relationship with the Poppy, set out here:

    http://photopol.blogspot.com/2008/11/remembrance.html

    I will wear one again this year.

    I do, however, vehemently protest against any organisation putting pressure on its employees to wear the Poppy. This is a short-term peer-pressured obsequious gesture of support for the current war mongering

    The original meaning of the Poppy was to proclaim the futility of war and sympathy and support for its victims.

    Back to basics, please.

  208. anno

    8 Nov, 2010 - 11:20 pm

    Mark

    Is it difficult for the Creator of the universe also to create religion, a system for humans to remember Him? You describe a tenuous link to a Creator, which is only accessible to the fortunate few.

    God gave us a system for holding onto and focussing on our relationship with Him, and discarding our relationship with transient things. The sweetness of music, art and stories divert us from our relationship with Him, and are forbidden in Islam because they are unbeneficial.

    When, about 1,000 years ago in Europe the belief in the Oneness of God was brutally exterminated, there arose a substitute, a relationship with a lover, a human being, a Romantic experience, which consists in reality of nothing more than sexual fantasy.

    In our society people still believe that access to this transient excitement is a spiritual experience, and self-deny the accompanying disobedience of God’s laws that it leads to. Such concepts are fundamentally alien to the weakest in faith in Islam. It is obvious to them, through their upbringing, that these relationships with the created things and beings are mere animism.

    The purpose of the prophets, peace be upon them all was to enable human beings to hold onto their relationship with God, and so to avoid the insanity of becoming attached to transient things.

  209. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 11:21 pm

    Polo – the sort of experience I mentioned in an earlier post? I wonder.

  210. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    8 Nov, 2010 - 11:33 pm

    anno – Let me try and understand your concept of transient and distraction; meanwhile, no, never tenuous; ‘One thing is certain, we all have an opportunity to realise God’s presence is everywhere.’

  211. glenn

    8 Nov, 2010 - 11:35 pm

    Mark: No disrespect, but I’m surprised at your comments concerning scepticism and religion, for a man of your intelligence and reading. To actually believe that a single entity designed and created the entire universe just for our benefit, and that he needs to periodically send along prophets to inform us of why he did so, and what we’re supposed to do, requires credulity not usually attainable by adults.

    There’s no logic, evidence or solid reasoning behind any religion, which is why it has to all be based on faith. The various gods (christian particularly) would have to be such a blood-soaked monster as to make the Biblical character the most diabolical sadist and mass murderer in anybody’s history.

    Anyone worshipping for any given religion has simply failed to drop one more god from the huge list available. The ancient mumbo-jumbo and superstitions are easy enough to understand – people were too ignorant to have a better explanation back then. Why should intelligent people today want to take seriously primitive explanations that people – not god/gods, but people – invented to explain the observed phenomenon of life?

    Religion, as you must be aware, has caused untold misery, war, death, division and hatred in the world. Science and reason, compassion and democratic socialism is the key to the survival of this planet, not millennia-encrusted dogma and superstition.

  212. anno

    8 Nov, 2010 - 11:56 pm

    Well, you hit the heresy bullseye in one. God is not present here with us. This is not where He has His being.

    If you ask a child where God is, they point to the sky. He has communication with everywhere and He also knows the un-seen (by us).

    Why heresy? Scholars say that it is misleading to state that God is everywhere because it leads to the idea that humans co-exist on the same level as Him. It is helpful for humans to know that God is in charge. It is also extremely dangerous for everybody when a human thinks that they have even a whisker of God’s power or knowledge. I agree with Vronsky on that.

    Muslims scholars are always falling into the trap of playing politics with their fellow human beings. That is false power, based on lying, spying and manipulation. It is the big trap for all Muslims to think that God has delegated any authority to them. He has made them witnesses to what is going on around them, and even the prophets were described as merely warners and bringers of good tidings.

    One of the tricks that the former custodians of Islam, the Jews, like to play on the Muslims, is to persecute them so that they retaliate from their own anger. Jihad is for the sake of God, not my own feelings. That is the clearest reason why Muslims do not do terrorism. In jihad, you inform your tormentor of their error so that they and everybody else understands that you want falsehood to cease, not human beings.

  213. anno

    9 Nov, 2010 - 12:00 am

    Glenn

    assalamu ‘alaykum

  214. Suhayl Saadi

    9 Nov, 2010 - 12:42 am

    http://mindbodypolitic.com/deleted-chapter-on-pro-israeli-media-control-in-loe/

    This – above – is a deleted chapter from Lila Rajiva’s book, ‘Language of Empire’. She informs us on her blog that the chapter was deleted from the book at the request of her editor. She’s posted it on her blog. It’s a good critique.

    asiansinmedia.org/news/article.php/publishing/1407

    I reviewed her book on a web-mag, ‘Asians in the Media’, edited by Sunny Hundal (before he set up ‘Liberal Conspiracy’). She found it impossible to get reviews in the MSM. I’ve removed the prefixes on the link to the review.

  215. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    9 Nov, 2010 - 12:45 am

    glenn,

    There is no logic, no evidence, no solid reasoning and I agree with your last paragraph; as you surmised I am aware of the religious dogma, superstition and conflict, but I am also aware that religion has given so much comfort, cohesion and love to many. When my father was in a hospice I saw many people who, before they died, asked for the comfort of a priest. They were literally scared to die, to let go, makes sense, nobody really wants to leave those they love.

    anno,

    What I mean is exactly what you stated, ‘has communication with everywhere and knows the un-seen (by us).’ in other words all around us, ‘everywhere.’

  216. glenn

    9 Nov, 2010 - 1:21 am

    Anno… peace be upon you too.

    Mark: That people may well derive some comfort, on occasion, from a belief is no indication of its validity. People also derive great stress and fear as a result of the same beliefs, and huge advantage is taken of a great many people, by those that cynically use their belief to manipulate them. None of this is an argument for the existence of an all-powerful being who watches our every move and judges our conformity to his edicts.

    It should follow that if people genuinely believe in a glorious afterlife, they should be happy for others that have died – and look forward to it themselves. Why should they need a priest to comfort them, if they believe their Heavenly Father is about to reunite them with their ancestors and so on? Rather than leaving those they love, they would be overjoys to be rejoining all those that have gone before.

    I believe that false hopes are worse than no hopes at all. Far better are realistic aspirations, and trying to work out what would benefit humanity and our planet, rather than what might please an angry, vengeful ‘god’ that is apparently terrified of opposition, would make enemies out of anyone failing to adhere to the precise dogma, and following dictates of self-appointed religious leaders.

  217. Roderick Russell

    9 Nov, 2010 - 1:21 am

    Mark Golding at 9:53 PM – Mark, I know you are a decent chap and have admitted on this blog to a friendship with some MI6 personnel. You should know that MI6 was front and centre in slandering me, and I am not the only one they slandered. I think you are being a little naive and over-trusting about some of these relationships. I think Courteney heard some adverse comments that he believes. I would like to hear from him.

  218. anno

    9 Nov, 2010 - 6:07 am

    Roderick

    You seem to have what I have heard called Satan’s ‘double-bind’. You are certain that malign forces are against you, but you have been programmed to think you are weak if you are distressed by them.

    I have never been subjected to political threats, but I have experienced the malignancy of black magic operated by a Cambridge don who continuously, serially seduced a handful of married women, and also the extraordinary manipulation of truth by my ex-wife, which is now a church of England vicar. Bishops please note, you don’t have to get out of the frying pan into the fire of Roman Catholicism.

    She manipulated all of the institutions against me, family, medical, police, social worker, and probably security services too. But unlike you, I seem to have arrived in a place where my enemies look powerless and stupid. You have to believe in your own instincts. Of course the security services have been persecuting you. They are pathetic idiots like the troll above. One day they will be frail, old, white-faced fools, fearing death and spiritually empty. The enemy is the indoctrination that you should not have feelings. The security services are serious twits, but it’s one’s own stiff upper lip that causes the double-bind.

    Apparently the evidence for the 7/7 underground bombings shows that the bombs were underneath the train. Your persecutors are murderous nutters, so be happy! You are free from them and their political patrons. You are not obliged to feel bad about being the victim of vermicious trolls.

  219. Suhayl Saadi

    9 Nov, 2010 - 7:21 am

    anno, did you say your ex-wife is now a C of E vicar, or that the Cambridge Prof. is now a vicar? How bizarre. The whole thing. And who is “the troll above”? And can you tell us something about the black magic. This is very interesting. Just to clarify, you understand. Thanks, man.

  220. somebody

    9 Nov, 2010 - 8:58 am

    Q. Was Craig well enough to go to Scotland at the w/e?

    George Galloway is considering standing for the Scottish Parliament.

    “Holyrood could be calling me home. I am coming under serious pressure to be a candidate in Glasgow, for the Scottish parliament in May. Football supporters, leaders of the Asian community, trades unionists, former constituents – even members of the Labour Party are all saying that the Scottish parliament needs some heavier-weight members if it’s to develop as a real parliament worthy of the name.

    It needs members who might be recognised outside their own living rooms, members with principles on which they stand, come what may. And it needs members who can speak, their own mind, without a pager in their pocket.

    I’d need five per cent of the total Glasgow vote to get elected – somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000 votes. My friends don’t think it’s beyond me. Neither do I. What about you?”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6I8wwKbTFk

  221. Ingo

    9 Nov, 2010 - 11:50 am

    Hollyrod is caling him home, lol, more like the SWP has had enough of his guest appearance, catapulting him into Parliament when noLabours high and mighty dropped him.

    They were OK with cheats and liars like Jack Straw, Phil Woolas and Elliot Morley, not to talk of Jackie Smith hiding away with her grey sister, leaving hubby home to taxpayer funded porn, but not with George, he was just too loose for the leash to fit.

    I’m surprised that George Galloway did not add any quotes from his former boxing gym, like ‘a left hook followed by a straight right sorted him out.’

    Craig said that he never was a boxer and keeps using this hard man quote to prop himself up.

    He must be looking forward to carry on with on his ‘braggadories’ in Parliament, that oil smuggling, milk sipping little toe rag.

    That said, I have yet to meet a politician who was not a liar at one or other time and it is hard not to support anything that changes Palestine’s lot.

    Thanks Suhayl for the excellent blog of Lila, she seems to be another anker, a focus point for supporters of a new agenda, just as Craig, Julian and many others, is she popular with her followers?

  222. technicolour

    9 Nov, 2010 - 12:04 pm

    Good anticuts site; collating all the actions – was about to try and it myself, so thanks, whoever:

    http://www.anticuts.org.uk

    re religion: heard it described as ‘having an imaginary friend in the sky’. Which is nice, unless that friend turns out to be a fearful bully, of course.

  223. ingo

    9 Nov, 2010 - 1:31 pm

    looks like the shareholders of waterboarding Inc. feel obliged to justify their decisions, over and over again.

    Why, if they are so sure tthat they are making the right decisions?

    Bush, the man who told us Saddam was in lieu with Al Quaeda, when his family had the closest ties with Bin Laden and various Taliban terrorists, indeed it was him inviting them for lunch on the ranch.

    How can we believe his lies and innuendo, written to sell books, just as Blairts voyage, how can we trust a man who went into Iraq qithout a clue how to solve it, look at it, its a mess dangerous for Christians, without a Government for 8 month and still under the kosh of US mongers.

    Torture did not stop the London Dockland bombing.

    We are subjected to his, John Sawyers and Blairs torturous remarks, every day of the week, just when it comes up to rememberance.

    This is the sickest diversion and use of Rememberance day yet, lets speak out loud and clear.

    How about pinning a letter, together from folks on here, and nail it to the front doors, with a PR, of all the boot licking news shite out there.

  224. technicolour

    9 Nov, 2010 - 1:41 pm

    yeas, ingo, the times should be sued for that headline; the guardian too. who cares what’s in the piece. they only read the headlines.

  225. Vronsky

    9 Nov, 2010 - 3:43 pm

    Bush has a point, sort of – you just have to think it through. I’ll bet if we were in a position to waterboard Bush and his ilk, terrorism would disappear in 24 hours.

  226. technicolour

    9 Nov, 2010 - 3:49 pm

    Hmm. I think I need to re-read Earthly Powers: remember a scene where a priest, I think, in an attempt to convert a Nazi, ends up more or less doing that.

  227. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    9 Nov, 2010 - 3:49 pm

    I agree ingo – Bush is now promoting his bio while the media keep quoting from this criminal’s book on how torture saved London from terror attacks – it makes me physically wretch – Annoyingly the mainstream press cannot boot out their SIS link person because it just happens to be the chief editor and another ‘cooker’ resides within the BBC trustees I believe – sickening!

  228. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    9 Nov, 2010 - 3:50 pm

    I agree ingo – Bush is now promoting his bio while the media keep quoting from this criminal’s book on how torture saved London from terror attacks – it makes me physically wretch – Annoyingly the mainstream press cannot boot out their SIS link person because it just happens to be the chief editor and another ‘cooker’ resides within the BBC trustees I believe – sickening!

  229. ingo

    9 Nov, 2010 - 4:26 pm

    There never was any need to waterboard, and I would not be able to waste my time with Bush.

    I’d leave him to his Texas landscape, somewhere dug in up to his neck, the local ant/jackdole/vulture population sort him out, at least his last act would be nutritious to some.

    ‘Bush and his ilk’?

    A contraption for multiple waterboarding? to be set up beside a wee canal leading off the sewage works?

    See what you have done now, Vronsky? you are a very bad man, (:-)

    Joke aside, the coindicences are planned.

    Royals are attending functions of the british Legion speaking of the fantastic job our boys are doing dying for karzai’s Kabul puppet regime.

    Sadness tightens guts,

    when lies are masqueraded as gospel truth,

    yellorange leaves autumnly tumble,

    on young graves in dusty soils,

    wedding parties, sappers, sons

    proud mothers weepingintheirsleep,

    Remembrance recoil.

    young liv

  230. somebody

    9 Nov, 2010 - 4:52 pm

    Sky News have just had Goldsmith on.

    ‘Waterboarding? What’s that? No we didn’t know it was happening. It’s torture anyway and we are against torture.’

    Then he proceeded to give his spurious views on why we went to war, which he rehearsed at the Chilcot theatrics.

    This is ZBC’s report on the young prince’s nonsense today in Wootton Bassett.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-11716129

    Keep it going lads. It’s nearly the 11th and then we have Sunday at the Cenotaph. The 1,000 mile March for Honour drew a smile here.

    Q. Will Cameron and Clegg he holding hands in Whitehall dans le style de Sarkozy

  231. Roderick Russell

    9 Nov, 2010 - 5:09 pm

    Anno – My situation is entirely different from yours. I’m sorry to hear about your situation with your wife. Fortunately my own relationship with my spouse is a very strong one.

    I posed a simple question to Courteney that should be easy for him to answer for himself. I would like to hear from him.

  232. Anonymous

    9 Nov, 2010 - 5:28 pm

    I find it unnerving that most of the ‘clever’ regulars here are just sitting on their ass winging and doing damn all to lifting the discussion to tangible means by which to oppose what’s happening. Quite miserable really. Quite pathetic too.

    No hope indeed – not here anyhow.

  233. somebody

    9 Nov, 2010 - 5:46 pm

    Anon – what do you suggest?

  234. Anonymous

    9 Nov, 2010 - 6:03 pm

    I already proposed a TAX REVOLT. And your proposal is?

  235. Suhayl Saadi

    9 Nov, 2010 - 6:46 pm

    anno, come on, man, give us the story of your brush with black magic. I am being serious, not trying to poke fun at you. I’m interested to know how such things might work – beyond the power of suggestion, etc. Also, the idea of a lascivious (female) Cambridge Professor who seduces other females (?sexaully or just to join her ‘cult’?) is something which seems hugely intriguing. At least it does to me. I am interested in magic – not its practice, just on an intellectual level and of course a creative level as well. Tell me, what happened to you through such malevolent forces. What did you experience?

    Courtenay… you there?

  236. technicolour

    9 Nov, 2010 - 7:20 pm

    some of the regulars are writing extraordinary poetry:

    Sadness tightens guts,

    when lies are masqueraded as gospel truth,

    yellorange leaves autumnly tumble,

    on young graves in dusty soils,

    wedding parties, sappers, sons

    proud mothers weepingintheirsleep,

    Remembrance recoil.

    young lives

    ingo, very sorry if i added the ‘es’ to lives wrongly.

    re anno and black magic: words can be spells, can they not? ‘sit’, to a trained dog, gives you a power over that dog.

  237. Clark

    9 Nov, 2010 - 8:04 pm

    Anyone wishing to understand “magic” can start with “Frogs into Princes” by Bandler and Grinder, the first of their series of books about NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, as used by Common Purpose, and entertainers like Derren Brown. The Brian Eno album “My Life in the Bush of Ghosts” is quite illustrative, too.

  238. Suhayl Saadi

    9 Nov, 2010 - 8:05 pm

    Yes, that’s a super poem, ingo. Thanks, technicolour for posting it again, I hadn’t spotted it earlier.

    Re. dogs and magic:

    Aleister Crowley: Woof-woof, bow-wow. I am the Magus, you know. Obey me!

    Common-or-garden dog: Grrrrrr…

  239. Suhayl Saadi

    9 Nov, 2010 - 8:09 pm

    Ta much, Clark, I’ll check out those suggestions.

  240. technicolour

    9 Nov, 2010 - 8:59 pm

    i think early Bandler is quite interesting, but the NLP phenomenon v dodgy (Derren Brown agrees). Basically, people will believe what they want to believe, if they want to believe something.

  241. technicolour

    9 Nov, 2010 - 9:34 pm

    sorry, not meant to be an absolute statement, thinking aloud.cheers suhayl, quite right.

  242. crab

    10 Nov, 2010 - 12:37 am

    I think there is something supernatural about creativity in the world, and in human beings in particular. Magic is a word with an overload of meanings like love, and they are words that are meant to mean more than could be said.

    Anno’s faith reminded me of this old taoist quote:

    “The just man has no mind to seek happiness, heaven therefore, because of this mindlessness, opens it’s inmost heart.

    The bad man busies himself with avoiding misfortunes, heaven therefore confounds him for this desire. How unsearchable are the ways of heaven, how useless the wisdom of men.”

    On-topic:

    There was a quick but non-dismissive review on “film 2010″ for a documentary movie coming out called “Collapse”, which is by Michael Rupert who runs the alternative news and analysis website, http://www.fromthewilderness.com http://www.collapsemovie.com/synopsis.html

    Ive never read his site much, he is a ixxi truther, a peak oil’er, a climate change concerner.. apparently he did a good job of predicting the banking crisis..

    He would seem to be “a radical”.

    r/Quote from http://www.fromthewilderness.com

    Barrie Zwicker: As the resources run out, Earth will be a pathetic place, where a few ultra-wealthy live in fortified places, while the vast majority either die or barely survive. A successful revolution might be as unlikely as bringing the oil back. I think we have to imagine how good life on Earth could be if we smarten up and learn to live together, and how bad it could be if the present trends continue. Remember, the present trends, or at least most of them, are toward dystopia. To overlook this is to engage in fatal denial. Denial is probably the main Achilles’ heel of the species known as Homo sapiens.

    There are too many great websites to list; here are a few to get you started:

    http://www.oldamericancentury.org

    http://www.mujca.com

    http://www.truthout.org

    http://www.citizenscourt.com

    http://www.podcasts.com

  243. glenn

    10 Nov, 2010 - 12:59 am

    Hey crab… interesting quotes and websites. As it happens one of those sites, truthout.org, is serialising a new book by a Thom Hartmann which sets about solutions to our current economic woes, inequality and environmental problems. It’s called ‘rebooting the American dream’, and the introduction is here:

    http://www.truth-out.org/thom-hartmann-rebooting-the-american-dream-07112010

    The chapters will be produced each week, or each month – can’t remember. I’m sure the book is worth getting too, I have several by that author, and all were well worth the time and money.

    *

    Is it only a ‘bad man’ that seeks to avoid misfortune (for instance, by saving cash in case of hard times, by putting on a seat belt etc.) ? Maybe the Taoist meant it’s bad to _only_ seek to avoid misfortune. But then, it can be pretty bad if one is only interested in fortune, too.

  244. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    10 Nov, 2010 - 1:28 am

    Oaths and torture,

    Former Tory shadow home secretary David Davis said the use of techniques such as waterboarding undermined the West’s case when discussing human rights with nations such as China.

    We note the American Justice Department not only gave the ‘green light’ for torture as stated by GW Bush in his memoirs, they also failed to commit to prosecutions for the destruction of evidence (on tapes) where torture was involved (to get signed confessions).

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/09/AR2010110904106.html?hpid=topnews

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/15/AR2008011504090.html

    Such hypocrisy when we examine the US Judiciary Act of 1789 which says:

    I do solemnly swear (or affirm), that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent on me, according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the Constitution, and laws of the United States. *So help me God*.

    Interestingly judges in England are required to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen and her successors as well as this, the Judicial Oath:

    I, ‘name’, do swear that I will well and truly serve our Sovereign Lady Queen Elizabeth in the office of Justice, and I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this realm (colony), without fear or favour, affection or ill will. *So help me God*.

    Interestingly a paragraph from the original hippocratic oath taken by physicians says:

    If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.

    Perhaps that should be added to the Judicial Oath and allegiance removed.

  245. glenn

    10 Nov, 2010 - 1:35 am

    Mark Golding quoted: “If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.”

    Indeed… so why are the doctors, psychologists and so on who reverse-engineered the SERE programme and their understanding of the mindsets of those in the middle-east in order to _do the most harm_ to their new subjects, Arab prisoners, not being stripped of their right to practice medicine, at the very least?

  246. Anonymous

    10 Nov, 2010 - 1:43 am

    Hiya Glenn, i didnt check the sites, and a couple are spent now.. I was reading some more about Michael Rupert and the docu on him here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_%28film%29

    Seems he’s a super truther, which i dont mind but those sites are a bit stars and banners for me. The film looks to be quite thought provoking.

    -

    I think the tao quote suggests there is special reward for abandoning self protection and special penalties for focusing there. The little sketch is simplistic and polarised but taoism encourages amorphism~.

  247. somebody

    10 Nov, 2010 - 7:40 am

    As everyone already knew.

    British deny George Bush’s claims that torture helped foil terror plots

    British officials say there is no evidence that waterboarding saved lives of UK citizens, as Bush claimed in his memoirs

    Richard Norton-Taylor and Ian Black

    guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 9 November 2010 21.37 GMT

    British officials said today there was no evidence to support claims by George Bush, the former US president, that information extracted by “waterboarding” saved British lives by foiling attacks on Heathrow airport and Canary Wharf. In his memoirs, Bush said the practice ?” condemned by Downing Street as torture ?” was used in CIA interrogations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks on the US.

    He said Mohammed, below, was one of three al-Qaida suspects subjected to waterboarding. “Their interrogations helped break up plots to attack American diplomatic facilities abroad, Heathrow airport, and Canary Wharf in London, and multiple targets in the United States,” he wrote.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/09/british-deny-bush-claims-foil-terror

  248. nomadron

    10 Nov, 2010 - 9:30 am

    Thank you crab and glenn for sharing useful references. More people should do this.

    And thank you, Craig, for writing this post which inspired me to develop my own thoughts at http://nomadron.blogspot.com/2010/11/rant.html

  249. Vronsky

    10 Nov, 2010 - 9:43 am

    “I think we have to imagine how good life on Earth could be if we smarten up and learn to live together”

    Originating from an interview between Ruppert and Orlov: “the ultimate commodity in which to invest is not gold or shotgun shells but people you can trust”.

    http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/10/interview-on-prns-lifeboat-hour-with.html

    From the same source, I also liked “That historical nations abide but “acronym anachronisms” like USSR and USA turn out to be figments of the geopolitical imagination”. Of course I’m adding ‘UK’ to that list.

  250. craig

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:33 am

    Am in Montrose today. Working in very concentrated way on Burnes book so no sinister reason for not blogging.

  251. MJ

    10 Nov, 2010 - 12:18 pm

    Hope you’re feeling well Craig.

  252. MJ

    10 Nov, 2010 - 12:27 pm

    “Of course I’m adding ‘UK’ to that list”.

    Yes. I’d also add the EU.

  253. Apostate

    10 Nov, 2010 - 12:30 pm

    Has anyone wondered why WW1 started in 1914?

    According to the “cock-up” theory of history subscribed to here and the one I learned in college WW1 happened almost by accident. It was all down to railway timetables and some bloke called Princep etc.

    Alas it is a sad fact to record that all those millions of brave young men who died in WW1 were sacrificed on the altar of the central banking scam.

    For in 1913 the Warburgs,Roths et al got their hands on the Fed. Thus US tax-payers were fleeced so as the Fed could bankroll the British war effort. We were bankrupt when war began in 1914.

    The same bankers through their agents,like Brandeis,Untermayer and House controlled US President Woodrow Wilson. They bankrolled the war propaganda fabricated by early media theorists like Bernays and Lippmann. Such propaganda turned US citizens formerly sympathetic to Germany into creatures baying for German blood almost overight!

    They turned up at the Versailles conference too with their pet war leaders in tow. It was the bankers and their agents who orchestrated the post-war settlement. Their friends the Zionists were there in force too since it was they who had seen the prospect of a general war that would be terminated by a post-war settlement in which they themselves would have a say as key to advancing their cause substantially.

    The final settlement decided upon by the internatinal bankers naturally left Europe seething with irredentist border disputes and displaced national minorities especialy among the Germans and Slavs.

    Thus as most historians whether of the “cock-up” persuasion or otherwise have noticed the stage was set for another general war in the next generation.

    Between times the bankers set about debauching national currencies creating depression and hyper-inflation that wrought havoc in the US and Europe,particularly in Weimar Germany where the bankers had seen their Bolshevik proxies crushed in 1919.

    Until the power of the central bankers to instigate depressions,hyper-inflation,revolutions and wars is rolled back expect the next chapter in World History to be dominated by the same trail of human destruction.

  254. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    10 Nov, 2010 - 2:19 pm

    Justice, Murder & Religion

    You cannot ignore Obama’s address in Jakarta – http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2010/1110/Obama-lauds-Indonesia-for-religious-tolerance-democratic-reform

    his native tongue sandwiched in-between fine words of freedom, tolerance and human rights. It was a speech of personal reflection and cultural references and sourced the familiar speech in Cairo when he spoke of reuniting with the Muslim world.

    http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/awesome-obama-shines-in-jakarta/405928

    His fine words were plainly hollow, his delivery bombed and tiresome.

    Obama must bite the bullet and confront a painful legacy and not just turn the page. Every minute of each day an evil shadows Barack Hussein Obama. The past cannot be allowed to rest.

    The Bush dynasty is clawing itself back into reality as America collapses from past truths revealed by investigative soldiers who by attention to detail and stealth have forced open the shut doors that hide murder, deceit, deception and holocaust.

    The ghosts of the fallen hacked by a despot President, son of the evil emperor, liar and cheat, who exploited faith and religion to garner his base, his partner in marriage free to enjoy the orgasmic thrill of stolen wealth, while the family of a young man still mourn his murder from a drunken impaired vision that ignored a red light and took a teenage life; the torture, the murder of thousands of Iraqi children exterminated by fire at breakfast while mummy coveted their frail bodies in futile attempts to save them from the falling cluster bombs.

    This *is* Obama’s ‘point of decision’ -to separate America from the shadows of it’s past, to free the American people from the burden of shame, to bring before justice the criminals of war and the peace. This must be his eulogy to the dead, the dying and those young minds frozen by trauma.

    Russ Baker and others have exposed the crimes of the Bush family – it now takes strong men of courage to bring them to justice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ZkqfRsiRo

  255. somebody

    10 Nov, 2010 - 2:52 pm

    Good to see the very large student protest at Millbank. The ConDems must be feeling a bit sweaty.

  256. Apostate

    10 Nov, 2010 - 2:52 pm

    Don’t think any of these crimes against humanity figure prominently in the new Bush autobiography.

    Seems to me the only interesting thing Dubya says in the book is that he thought he’d given the order for the Flight 93 shoot-down.

    This is something the disinformationists and their camp- followers ( no non-PC pun against gay men intended-I know how touchy you,guys are re-such slurs-real or imagined )

    tried to air-brush from Day One. The story re-the “Let’s Roll” passengers overcoming the bad guys in the cockpit- no pun,honest-and the phone calls that were a scientific impossibility at the time gave the scam away to anyone with a brain half the size of a walnut!

    The G.H.Bush record at the CIA deserves scrutiny. His father’s pre-war sponsorship of Hitler and wartime trade with the Nazis a foretaste of the vampire crimes that followed their forebear’s example.

    The Bush family history is the invisible government’s nefarious war against all humanity writ large.

  257. Anonymous

    10 Nov, 2010 - 2:54 pm

    Craig’s post July 6th: Apostate Steelback et al are banned from this site for persistent anti-semitism.

  258. somebody

    10 Nov, 2010 - 3:02 pm

    If you wish to hear dissembling and rank hypocrisy then listen to Howells on this Radio 4 Today segment from yesterday. Howells and his ilk knew damn well what was going on. They did NOT condemn the practice of waterboarding as torture.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9170000/9170110.stm

    The former US president George W Bush has defended the use of “waterboarding” on terrorist suspects, saying it saved London from attacks.

    Speaking in the programme, Dr Kim Howells, a former chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee that oversees the work of the intelligence community, condemned the practice as “torture”.

    A David Davis, the former shadow Home Secretary, said that using “brains, not brutality” was a better way to extract intelligence information.

  259. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Nov, 2010 - 3:29 pm

    Howells had an allegedly questionable role when in the NUM during the 1984-5 Miners’ Strike. He has seen a steadily upward trajectory of career advancement since those times.

  260. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Nov, 2010 - 3:30 pm

    ConDems do not sweat; they perspire. Usually with the weight of all the gold they are carrying on their backs.

  261. somebody

    10 Nov, 2010 - 5:08 pm

    Part 66 Yemen mail bomb contd/

    Breaking News

    10 November 2010 Last updated at 17:03

    Yemen mail bomb ‘could have detonated over eastern US’ Forensic tests on a failed parcel bomb smuggled on a US-bound cargo flight show it would have detonated over the eastern US seaboard, say British police.

    The bomb, which originated in Yemen, was discovered inside a printer cartridge on a plane at East Midlands airport last month.

    ***********

    Are you having us on ConDems?

  262. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Nov, 2010 - 7:05 pm

    Kim Howells and Liam Fox. Hard men with hard faces. Cold eyes. But what else might they have in common?

  263. somebody

    10 Nov, 2010 - 7:44 pm

    Howells is a longstanding member, and former chairman, of Labour Friends of Israel, “a Westminster-based lobby group working within the British Labour Party to promote the State of Israel” (Labour Friends of Israel press briefing, 2003). Howells’ public statements on Israel/Palestine have typically echoed the official Israeli government position

    Fox is a strong supporter of Israel and is a member of Conservative Friends of Israel. In 2006 he said, “Israel’s enemies are our enemies and this is a battle in which we all stand together or we will all fall divided.”[32] In January 2009, referring to Israel, he also said, “British support for any ally is never unqualified. International law and values must always be obeyed.’”[33]

    and both voted for the Iraq war.

  264. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Nov, 2010 - 8:22 pm

    Exactly. They also seem to me to operate along policy trajectories which seem coterminous with those with which one would expect the security and intelligence services. Close then, in deed, thought and action. But more than that, identical in spirit.

    It has been alleged that the security services had a number of spies in the NUM during the Miners’ Strike of 1984-85. This was one of the major factors that led to the total victory of the Thatcher Govt. One wonders who these alleged spies might have been. Were these people ever really on the Left, one wonders. When might they have been ‘purchased’? But is it simply ambition…?

    http://www.aberdareonline.co.uk/content/has-kim-howells-boy-penywaun-forgotten-his-roots

  265. Courtenay Barnett

    10 Nov, 2010 - 8:24 pm

    @ All – lest we forget:-

    The War And Occupation In Iraq Are Illegal

    By Courtenay Barnett

    Much has been said and written about America’s war, and occupation of Iraq. Amongst the community of nations of the world, and within the minds of the citizens of the world, two statements might succinctly clarify the issues of war and occupation in Iraq. The war was illegal under international law. The occupation remains illegal under international law. The point is:-

    Article 2(3) and 2(4) of the United Nations Charter read:-

    ” (3) All member states shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.”

    ” (4) All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.”

    Sounds simple, reasonable and clear enough. Let me add that there are two and only two exceptions to the Charter’s Article 2(4) prohibition against the use of unilateralist force

    ” … if an armed attack occurs… ” (or is imminent) as contemplated by Article 51 of the UN Charter is one. Authorisation by the Security Council is the other.”

    ( Quote: “Learn the Law” pp. 154-155 ?” published Trafford 2003 ?” ISBN 141200775-5)

    World leaders ought consistently to be asked ?” where is your lawful authority for your current course of action?

    In assessing the statements of President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair, in the immediate pre-war period, one clearly discerns concerted efforts to lend legitimacy to the war as then planned. The possession of, or imminent intention to use, Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs) was the ‘reason’ and ploy used to commence the war in Iraq. The truth is that Bush and Blair lied to, and misled their respective citizenry and the world. If the war in Iraq was to be deemed ‘legal’, there had to be a legitimate basis under international law, and of that Bush and Blair were fully aware. I make the following common sense observation:-

    ” At the end of the war, WMDs had to be found ?” but where ( Iraq is a big country) and by whom? UN weapons inspectors had been pulled out of Iraq to let the sacred mission of bombing Iraq begin. After the war, the U.S. enforced the holy seal of sanctions against return of the UN inspectors. The reasonable inquiry might be ?” since the UN inspectors were central to the process of diligently and honestly searching for WMDs before the war ?” why not let them conclude that honest and diligent search, after the war, to the satisfaction of the international community?”

    ( Ibid: p. 157)

    I admit error, because earlier in 2003, I thought we were “At the end of the war… ” ?” but, now I am proven wrong. A war of resistance to American and foreign occupation continues apace in Iraq.

    During the course of the twentieth century there was the war fought to end all wars ?” World War 1. That war lay the foundation for the next global conflagration ?” World War 2.

    An attempt at sanity, and for the preservation of international peace arose in the immediate post-World War 2 period. Thus, the United Nations came into being, and Article 2(3) of its Charter stated, “All member states shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means… “. The Charter does not abolish war, so much as that it provides a mechanism for the legitimate use of force, when all efforts at resolution by “peaceful means” have failed.

    The approaches of Bush and Blair towards Iraq are more reminiscent of aggressive conduct in the pre-World War 11 era, than being indicative of desire for civilized and lawful conduct more than fifty years after the UN multilateralist system was established. Bush and Blair have acted illegally and remain devoid of a legitimate cloak for their actions in Iraq.

    “Global justice” is the phrase which best describes where the world is compelled to go, if peaceful survival is desired. Global justice is not a mere abstract concept, for its pursuit remains imperative for avoiding the kinds of unnecessary warfare that plagued the world before World War 2 , and it continues to be the only viable and sane alternative to the new unilateralist and illegal dispensations of the likes of Bush and Blair.

    There cannot be one set of rules for the convenience of big powers in the world, and another set for all other nations. The Charter of the United Nations has quite clear provisions aimed at the preservation of international peace. President Bush and Prime Minster Blair have set their own standards, rules, and pattern of conduct in response to Iraq. Their standards, rules, and conduct auger well for future wars and remain manifestly ?” illegal.

  266. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Nov, 2010 - 8:55 pm

    Ah! Courtenay, you’re back, with a bang! Good evening to you.

  267. actron cp9190

    10 Nov, 2010 - 9:17 pm

    finally found this blog really help me in my research. thanks for sharing

  268. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Nov, 2010 - 9:53 pm

    Yes, it is a wonderfully erudite resource, especially for spambottomed spies like you. Go join the Rainbow Girls!

  269. Anonymous

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:01 pm

    “Kim Howells and Liam Fox. Hard men with hard faces. Cold eyes. But what else might they have in common?”

    Hmm – excellent question. I’d guess that if we smacked either over the head with a stout plank he’d fall down. Make a note of this information, purely mechanical though it be. I think we may have to build political relevance for it.

  270. Vronsky

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:03 pm

    That inflammatory suggestion at November 10, 2010 10:01 PM, was Vronsky. As if you wouldn’t know.

  271. somebody

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:05 pm

    Good letter to Clegg and his mates.

    Letter to British Liberal Democrats: protecting war criminals “just about lowest thing anyone could do”

    Stuart Littlewood

    11 November 2010

    Stuart Littlewood challenges Britain’s Liberal Democrats, the junior partners in the Conservative-led governing coalition, to confirm or deny Foreign Secretary William Hague’s claim that they had agreed to amend UK law so that Israeli war crimes suspects can visit Britain without fear of prosecution under universal jurisdiction.

    http://www.redress.cc/global/slittlewood20101111

  272. Anonymous

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:05 pm

    Ignore shit like the printer bomb. Distraction maybe?

  273. Roderick Russell

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:17 pm

    COURTENEY BARNES ?” May I refer you to my comment to you at November 8, 2010 5:07. I think it merits a response from you.

    Frankly, as I mentioned I found your earlier comments referred to be out of character for you, and I wondered why. Then I recalled you were working in the T&C and almost certainly will have met * several people * who do business in the relatively small T&C community and know of me. For example, as a lawyer yourself, do you perhaps know my old friend Ian Phillipson – who was the Sandals lawyer, and partner to a former Prime Minister of Jamaica??

    You shouldn’t have heard anything negative about me from any source whatsoever. But if you have, you do me a favour by telling me — Is there anything you should be telling me?? I would appreciate a response.

  274. Vronsky

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:21 pm

    @Roderick

    The issue of Lobster which reports on your travails isn’t available online. Can you give us a link to their text, if it’s accessible anywhere else?

  275. Suhayl Saadi

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:21 pm

    Vronsky, stout planks are in!

    Btw, I’d really strongly urge everyone who’s at all interested in the whole area of the generation of perpetual war, the systemic use of torture, etc. to read this piece by journalist, Lila Rajiva. It was a chapter which was meant to be in her book, ‘The Language of Empire’ (2005), but which she reportedly was advised by her publisher to remove. It critiques the depths of criminality that defined (defines) the USA-’Coalition’ invasion and destruction of Iraq, the privatisation of war and so on.

    This is the journalist I wrote about earlier who reports that she is being intimidated, allegedly by individuals linked to the CIA et al into leaving off her blog and maybe even leaving the USA. She also describes massive and systematic spam-attacks – a small example of which is at 9:17pm on 10.10.10 on Craig Murray’s blog, on this thread – see a few posts earlier.

    The chapter is entitled, The Torture Trompe L’Oeil II: Private Armies’ and so it seems central to the raison d’etre of Craig Murray’s own blog.

    http://mindbodypolitic.com/deleted-chapter-on-pro-israeli-media-control-in-loe/

  276. Vronsky

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:33 pm

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2004/06/18/torture_1/index.html

    Couple of pieces on torture by Darius Rejali. Deals with the ‘ticking bomb’ fallacy. Perhaps not something to read going to bed.

  277. Roderick Russell

    10 Nov, 2010 - 10:59 pm

    Vronsky re your request ?” here is an accurate transcript of the Article in Lobster 56, Page 16 (incidentally don’t use the indymedia article for reference, but click on my name below for an updated one.)

    —————-

    The persecution of Roderick Russell

    http://www.indymedia.org/pt/2008/04/905423.shtml

    That Web address above is the location of a very significant

    story. Roderick Russell, a former senior executive of

    Grosvenor International, the private property company owned

    by the Duke of Westminster, recounts there a decade-long

    campaign of harassment of him and his children by Grosvenor

    or agents working for it. (I presume the latter.)

    When Russell left Grosvenor he found himself unable to get

    further employment. He believes that he was given the black

    spot by Grosvenor. Over ten years later, apparently trying to

    get him to shut-up about being blackballed by Grosvenor, a

    campaign of harassment began: a car rammed into his house,

    computers wrecked, threatening phone-calls to his children,

    surveillance, phone taps etc., much of it witnessed by third

    parties. He has gone the formal route ?” police, MP ?” without

    effect. He thinks the secret state, the police and members of

    the Labour government are protecting Grosvenor. The documents

    he presents at the address above show that the police

    and pols are certainly dragging their feet. Are they afraid of

    Grosvenor? Spook involvement is implied but not demonstrated,

    in my opinion. See for yourself. Big stuff.

    Grosvenor did not reply to my e-mails requesting an on the-

    record statement about Russell’s allegations.

  278. crab

    10 Nov, 2010 - 11:51 pm

    fwiw, Courtney’s jest didnt read as derogatory here, just as irreverent craic. I chuckled at the gust of humour.

  279. Roderick Russell

    11 Nov, 2010 - 12:08 am

    Crab – Presumably Courtenay can speak for himself.

  280. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    11 Nov, 2010 - 12:12 am

    Interesting link Suhayl – much appreciated – I repeat do not follow a spam-bot link as it will identify your address and much more.

    For anyone interested in the US parallel government money trails read Russ Baker here:

    http://www.whowhatwhy.com/the-game-that-goes-on-and-on-2.html

    in three parts – a real eye opener. I have started to connect the dots from this forensic analysis to UK power brokers, corruption and BCCI Uk affairs. Give me a little time and I’ll start naming names.

  281. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    11 Nov, 2010 - 12:14 am

    Interesting link Suhayl – much appreciated – I repeat do not follow a spam-bot link as it will identify your address and much more.

    For anyone interested in the US parallel government money trails read Russ Baker here:

    http://www.whowhatwhy.com/the-game-that-goes-on-and-on-2.html

    in three parts – a real eye opener. I have started to connect the dots from this forensic analysis to UK power brokers, corruption and BCCI UK affairs.

    Give me a little time and I’ll start naming names.

  282. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    11 Nov, 2010 - 1:44 am

    Roderick,

    I note from your correspondence that you were freelance and in Cuba on business. I hope you don’t mind me asking but did you gain some knowledge/contacts etc while working for Grosvenor that you might have used to your advantage in securing a contract in Cuba with respect to the hotel industry? Nothing sinister, as before, I am just trying to understand exactly why you and your family have been targeted and abused.

  283. Roderick Russell

    11 Nov, 2010 - 2:46 am

    MARK – I left Grosvenor in 1986 and was immediately blacklisted so that I was rendered unemployable in North America from then until this day. The Grosvenor guttersnipes are well aware of this fact. I might add that I was a much sought after executive prior to joining Grosvenor. After leaving I was able to secure some freelance work though gradually it disappeared and became more difficult to secure anything (just as happened to Lehane, author of Unperson, A Life Destroyed; the blacklisting has an immediate effect, but for a time with more and more difficulty one can still occasionally get freelance work). In 2002 I joined Sandals for a couple of years and did an excellent job. I left as schooling was difficult for a family in Montego Bay.

    The projects I did in Cuba bore no relationship whatsoever to my work with these two companies; they don’t fit with either company’s business model. Both companies had a relationship with intelligence services that I regard as unhealthy, though I didn’t know this when I joined them; and wouldn’t have joined if I had.

    While with Sandals I uncovered several large frauds that had been going on for years before I joined.(saving hotel shareholders considerable dollars) and made a few enemies in doing so (including another Chartered Accountant who had let this happen) ?” I wondered if Courtenay had heard some gossip from one of these enemies, or simply if MI6 et al had just persuaded others to join in their smear campaign ?” perhaps contacting Sandals.

    Time Courtenay responded. Since when was a lawyer short on words?

  284. thomas sabo

    11 Nov, 2010 - 8:12 am

    thank you

  285. somebody

    11 Nov, 2010 - 8:14 am

    This is where the power resides. The possession of the single O level by the present incumbent of the dukedom has not diminished the holding of massive wealth of this family.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Grosvenor,_6th_Duke_of_Westminster

    I understood that the present Duke was a creature of the SIS. He is on the Board of the Royal United Services Institute along with these other members of the GICS (gangsters in charge) class.

    Governance

    President: HRH The Duke of Kent,

    Chairman: Rt Hon the Lord Hutton

    Vice-Presidents:

    Vice Adm Sir Jeremy Blackham KCB BA,

    Lt Gen the Hon Sir Thomas Boyd-Carpenter KBE,

    Sir Paul Lever KCMG,

    Sir David Omand GCB,

    Adm of the Fleet Sir Julian Oswald GCB, HG the Duke of Westminster KG OBE TD TL,

    John Weston CBE,

    Elected:

    Commodore Simon Ancona RN,

    Rt Hon James Arbuthnot MP,

    Jane Attwood,

    Richard Melville Ballerand FRUSI,

    Tim Banfield,

    Sir Roger Bone KCMG,

    Lt Gen Sir Robert Fry KCB CBE,

    Nik Gowing,

    Robert Keen,

    Vice Adm Rory McLean CB OBE,

    Cornelia Meyer,

    Dr Greg Mills,

    Geoff North,

    Richard Norton-Taylor,

    Stephen Phipson CBE,

    Sir Kieran Prendergast KCVO CMG,

    Lt Gen Jonathon Riley CB DSO PhD MA Late RWF,

    Prof Geoffrey Till FKC,

    Ian Willis

    Ex-officios: Mr Jonathan Evans, Lt Gen Andrew Figgures CBE, Lt Gen Andrew Graham CBE, Rear Adm Ronald H Henderson, Jr (American Defense Attache), Brig Gen Franz-Josef Nolte (German Defence Attache), Rear Adm Charles-Edouard de Coriolis (French Naval and Defence Attache), Prof Mark Welland FRS FREng.

    The staff list is here

    http://www.rusi.org/about/staff/

    Note the presence of ex BBC Margaret Gilmore and Gowing (ex BBC) and Norton-Taylor (Guardian) on the Board.

    Makes you think?

  286. somebody

    11 Nov, 2010 - 8:26 am

    Have you noticed the amount of fearmongering being broadcast overnight and today by the BBC in particular on what is actually an Autumnal storm? Make the populace feeble and afraid?

  287. somebody

    11 Nov, 2010 - 8:28 am

    I meant to include this link. Did you know that the Met Office is an offshoot of the Ministry of Defence?

    http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/board/index.html

  288. Larry from St. Louis

    11 Nov, 2010 - 11:24 am

    Suhayl, your dumb Jew-hating friend must be given credit for writing the most laughable footnote in the history of footnotes, which I’ve reproduced below.

    “The existence of the DEA report is convincingly documented in “Urban myth, my ass! More proof of conspiracies ?” spies, legislators and KSU,” Johns Sugg, Creative Loafing, March 27, 2002.”

  289. MJ

    11 Nov, 2010 - 12:16 pm

    Craig Murray @July 8th 2010:

    “I find myself obliged to ban Larry from St Louis from commenting on this blog.”

  290. ingo

    11 Nov, 2010 - 1:41 pm

    This is a devastating acknowledgement of Israels two faced demands. When negotiating peace they belittled that Fatah and Hamas were at each others throat and not united.

    This against a background of non stop and deliberate support for division of the two factions.

    Now that they are in talks to provide a united palestinian side in the peace negotiations stalled, they are shamefully, and for all to see, sabotaging what they asked for, by haphazardly reacting to what is happening in Damascus.

    Israels aim and demand to the US to destroy and attack Syria during the illegal attack on Iraq, has now resulted in Syria becoming the peacemaker between Hamas and Fatah.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/11/201011107372064681.html

  291. Magnet

    11 Nov, 2010 - 1:48 pm

    Working in Indigenous affairs I come across disappointing number of people who have been X-Factored into suburban oblivian.

    It’d be good if you could explain a bit more about X-Factoring, it’s bewildering.

  292. Roderick Russell

    11 Nov, 2010 - 4:54 pm

    Re my comment @ 2:46 AM. correction of typo. Date typed as 2002, s/b 1992

  293. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    11 Nov, 2010 - 5:51 pm

    The Iranian Nuclear Program needs Uranium Enrichment Facilities

    The West has tried hard to prevent Iran from achieving nuclear energy. It has taken fifteen years to build the 1000 megawatt nuclear reactor at Bushehr on Iran’s southern coast. The project has survived material delays, sanctions, technical problems and an Israeli attempt to sabotage the firmware with an irresponsible coded attack that might have cause immense environmental damage by reprogramming the logic that controls the core temperature of the reactor, safety and shut-down devices that prevent an over-temperature or ‘meltdown’ of the nuclear core.

    The plant is now operational although it will take a couple of months to reach full capacity. Iran has become the first Middle Eastern country to possess civilian nuclear power. Considering the pressure from America on Russia to stall the project, this has been a remarkable achievement, although a price has been paid in that a Russian agreement to UN sanctions had to be made to secure the support of the Obama administration towards Russia to complete the contract.

    A working Bushehr drives a legitimate need to enrich uranium needed to supply the plant after the post-build agreement between Russia and Tehran expires. Tehran is also worried based by past experience that delay tactics may also be used by the West to prevent fuel delivery promised in the agreement. The life of Bushehr is expected to be forty years and the agreement states that Russia will supply enriched uranium for the next ten years.

    The Iran nuclear plan estimates that a further fifteen nuclear power plants are required to meet domestic electricity needs of 20,000 megawatts. This is the central feature of Iran’s claim that under the NPT agreement it seeks only peaceful nuclear power and has no intention of produced a nuclear bomb capability as Israel suggests; a simple calculation proves that a ‘second strike’ capability would be useless against a nuclear attack by Israel which would involve a large number, possibly a hundred or more nuclear war-heads.

    I strongly believe now is the time to open front-door relations with Iran by the British government. This must be considered now in light of the UAE concluding a $24 billion agreement with South Korea to build four nuclear reactors, with the first to become operational by 2017. Saudi Arabia can therefore be expected to actively pursue its own civilian nuclear programme together with its own indigenous uranium enrichment.

    Saudi Arabia or others may indeed decide to use the by-product of peaceful nuclear fission, plutonium, to develop a nuclear bomb, much in the same fashion as Israel, and then to hide the fact under a pretense of nuclear ambiguity, which laughs in the face of any NPT agreement and brings our world even closer to a nuclear holocaust.

    Copyright Mark Golding

    All rights reserved

  294. crab

    11 Nov, 2010 - 5:57 pm

    Really special story that Suhayl:

    http://mindbodypolitic.com/

  295. Suhayl Saadi

    11 Nov, 2010 - 6:36 pm

    Thanks, crab, MJ, ingo. Somebody, that’s a superbly revealing listing. I see that Richard Norton-Taylor is on it. How interesting. Perhaps one might wish to add his name to another list, one occupied by the likes of Frank Gardner, Dominic Lawson and Con Coughlin.

    Another job for the stout plank! Metaphorically, of course.

  296. Courtenay Barnett

    11 Nov, 2010 - 8:04 pm

    @ Roerick,

    8 Nov? Remind me.

    Don’t think I know the individual.

    Kind regards.

    CB

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  298. Suhayl Saadi

    11 Nov, 2010 - 9:10 pm

    9:05pm: Do not attempt to obfuscate around here, spambot boy. I can see quite clearly exactly what you’re up to right now on this thread. You are exposed! You have no clothes! You are an emperor penguin!

  299. somebody

    11 Nov, 2010 - 10:43 pm

    Link to a good MS article by Solomon Hughes on the Vodaphone tax dodge and the part played in by ex chairman Christopher Gent also late of Lehman Bros, friend of George Osborne, funder of Tory party, associated with right wing think tank Reform and on and on.

    It’s not what you know. It’s who you know.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1289507206.html

  300. somebody

    11 Nov, 2010 - 11:04 pm

    Correction

    Gent was CEO of Vodaphone not Chairman. Now Chairman of GlaxoSmithKline!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gent

  301. Suhayl Saadi

    11 Nov, 2010 - 11:20 pm

    The revolving doors of corporate power. Nice work if you can get it! 1st Class passage through life.

  302. Courtenay Barnett

    12 Nov, 2010 - 12:11 am

    @ Crab,

    “Courtney’s jest didnt read as derogatory here, just as irreverent craic. I chuckled at the gust of humour.”

    Thanks – pleased I could make you chuckle.

    CB

  303. Courtenay Barnett

    12 Nov, 2010 - 12:12 am

    @ Roderick a second time,

    I really do not have any inside information re. Sandals – honestly.

    CB

  304. Courtenay Barnett

    12 Nov, 2010 - 12:17 am

    @ Suhayl,

    Thanks. Essentially I speak when I have something to say and shut up when I don’t. Or, as I learned long ago a wise man speaks when he has something to say – a fool because he has to say something.

    Now – I shut up.

  305. crab

    12 Nov, 2010 - 12:53 am

    But a “wise man” is oxymoronic, spoken tersely or not, we all have such little meaty brains.

    Regarding this spam, i dont think (m)any of these messages are targeted. I googled some of them and found endless unrelated blogs containing exact same urls, text and cut/paste technique. The lack of clear commercial purpose at the targets is curious, but the spammer can have aims unrelated to disrupting discussion – experimentation. Occasional replies can be made by people messing about. Expect more unpleasant messages when meant to disrupt.

    derp derp. corruption, war, terror, destruction…

    best sentiments – water can flow or it can crash, be water my freind. (Bruce Lee)

  306. crab

    12 Nov, 2010 - 12:54 am

    *friend*

  307. crab

    12 Nov, 2010 - 1:00 am

  308. Sean

    12 Nov, 2010 - 1:07 am

    Two small points on the original post

    “The “left”, insofar as it exists, represents only these state sector vested interests”

    This is the second time in as many weeks this line has been trotted out. I don’t know how well it serves Craig to keep referring back this particularly popular line of bullshit. I suspect this is a reference to what we may call the ‘Consitutional Left’ (i.e. Labour) -unavailing support of governmental and civic bureacracies, but it’s a not correct definition, and I believe (as do many) that any sustaining link between the Labour Movement and the Labour Party was broken a very long time ago. Conceptualising the left in this fashion is either wilfully disengenious or an immense political niavety, especially from a man that should know better; but I suspect that it serves its purpose, which is ideally to keep the notion of the cowed and defeated ‘big’ left very much in circulation.

    20,000 people on the streets of Edinburgh last month and 50,000 in London yesterday – this is just the start. There is no end to areas of potential mobilisation against the current government. There is enough activity out there to prove the lie to the idea that there is no “substantial response from a stupoured, x-factored population, dreaming only of easy routes to personal riches, which they have a chance in a million of achieving”. Whether it be the S/TUC campaigns, individual industrial action, the implementation of complementary currencies (ala Brixton), and the development of larger-scale co-operatives, to the increasing awareness of what constitutes tax justice, real-world developments make that last comment sound as ridiculous mandarin as it is: besides being the kind of cliched, negative drivel that drives people away from not just the mainstream political process, but from its commentary also; because it’s not just the case that the majority of people aren’t genuinely apathetic – merely that in being confronted by the cynical exercise of politics by careerist snake-oil salesmen they’ve switched off – and a commentariat that parrot on about hopeless disinterest and electoral hand-wringing has nothing to say either.

  309. Courtenay Barnett

    12 Nov, 2010 - 2:50 am

    @ Roderick,

    What is your take on this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udNYSCc0E7Y&feature=related

  310. crab

    12 Nov, 2010 - 4:09 am

    “The “left”, insofar as it exists, represents only these state sector vested interests”

    After seeing on channel4 tonight, bits of a squalidly sexed up 90 minute program (peppered with crave adds and aired prime time, before the ‘true blood’ blockbuster).. It was about the trillion pound debt, explaining that all public spending is useless and payed for “by us”. It really looks like “the left” is being bitched out of existence by “the right”

    The standard characterisations of these two sides have always repelled me as simplistic and biased to the point of automation.

    I think most basically, the left is the want to organise productive activity and resource distribution according to analysis, common union, possible sciences. The right is the want to just allow productive activity and distribution to self organise according to raw demands and supplys of human needs and urges.

    Maybe there is a place for both ways in an alright economy, i would personaly tend towards maximising the left. It does seem like the right has sabotaged and is savagely screwing the left now for all supplies and demands regardless of any broad consequences.

  311. Larry from St. Louis

    12 Nov, 2010 - 4:22 am

    So Courtenay links to a video by the failed Mr. Kollerstrom, who is a:

    1. 7/7 denier;

    2. 911 denier; and

    3. Holocaust denier.

    I’m still amazed at what scumbags inhabit this blog.

  312. peacewisher

    12 Nov, 2010 - 6:50 am

    Interesting post, crab.

    I too was incensed by the simplistic and one-sided analysis presented in the channel 4 programme.

    The system they so mercillessly condemned was born out of the cross-party consensus that emerged during ww2, which provided a model for a fair and equal post-war British society. That society would be, and of course was, the envy of the world – despite Britain being “broke” (financially) after ww2.

    The only problem with this society was that in the 1970s unions forgot their loftly principles, and a single “corrective” term of Thatcherism seemed to be what was needed to put things right. However, since the 1983 “landslide” the underclass that some had predicted has continued. Our society has paid them off to do nothing and moved further and further to the right, to the extent that goverbnment (which is meant to protect the people against the negative side of capitalism) is becoming just an extension of corporatism.

    Those of us who grew up proud to be British have seen the relatively fair and equal society our parents fought to produce stripped away piece by piece. We have sat by, got fat in front of our TVs and watched it happen. Some of us got up and went on a few demonstrations to ease our consciences when it got too bad (e.g. Iraq war) but otherwise just rolled over and let it happen.

    I don’t condone the violence in any way, but the spirit shown by students earlier this week (apart from the mishandled antiwar movement) is the first hopeful sign in a generation.

  313. Vronsky

    12 Nov, 2010 - 7:22 am

    “I don’t condone the violence in any way, but the spirit shown by students earlier this week (apart from the mishandled antiwar movement) is the first hopeful sign in a generation.”

    My stepson (wannabe rockstar) and his circle of friends seem apolitical to the point of Platonic purity. But one of their group, a girl, attended the demo and came back abuzz with excitement. Maybe there is hope, Craig.

  314. Suhayl Saadi

    12 Nov, 2010 - 7:30 am

    Craig Murray @July 8th 2010:

    “I find myself obliged to ban Larry from St Louis from commenting on this blog.”

  315. Suhayl Saadi

    12 Nov, 2010 - 7:31 am

    Crab, Courtenay: Perhaps we all are oxymorons.

  316. ingo

    12 Nov, 2010 - 9:37 am

    peacewisher and sean. I agree with both your sentiments. Students have finally woken up and are organising.

    That said, it is the old models of protest, still, thatsignifies their actions.

    far from assembling all in one place, neatly, looking at the small police presence, act up to it, thereby serving the Condem Government with pictures of violence, good arguments and reasoning to go ahead.

    If you are students and involved in the NUS, try and raise your voice for decentyralised actions.

    Imagine, all major and minor universities would organise these marches all over Britain in their respective Cities and towns, they would liaise with other local unions, up in arms about cuts, spreading the costs and efforts, making them work for their political masters.

    Thisd would have the advantage that you are seen locally to get active, other students of the LibCon variety might even join in, something to exploit in front of cameras, etc.

    Should you like someone to speak on such issues, get in touch and I come for some advanced but effective NVDA training.

    Well done keep at it, just don’t act up to these little invitations, if there is no police around on demos, its an invitation, first, not always a mistake of logistical planning.

  317. somebody

    12 Nov, 2010 - 10:14 am

    What about this for a cui bono? The ConDems and the Met knew that the protest would be large and they must have possessed enough intelligence coming through to forewarn them. So plan to have a small police presence and allow the protest to let rip. Then say ‘what terrible violence’ by anarchists etc. Enough media overload and fuss to completely overshadow the announcement of IDS’s cruel proposals on the following day.

    The condems are still making hay out of it. The BBC have this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11740282

    and the D Mail have an incendiary front page which prejudges the guilt of several people involved.

  318. angrysoba

    12 Nov, 2010 - 12:06 pm

    ” It has taken fifteen years to build the 1000 megawatt nuclear reactor at Bushehr on Iran’s southern coast.”

    Try 35 years! The Islamic Revolution slowed things down too.

    “Iran has become the first Middle Eastern country to possess civilian nuclear power.”

    Ermm…do I really need to tell you that at least one other Middle Eastern country has nuclear power?

    “The project has survived material delays, sanctions, technical problems and an Israeli attempt to sabotage the firmware with an irresponsible coded attack”

    It may well have been Israel (I don’t know). How do you know that it was?

    “I strongly believe now is the time to open front-door relations with Iran by the British government. This must be considered now in light of the UAE concluding a $24 billion agreement with South Korea to build four nuclear reactors, with the first to become operational by 2017.”

    Okay, so your strong beliefs aside, what do you think makes Iran and the UAE so different?

  319. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    12 Nov, 2010 - 3:40 pm

    Angrysober,

    To be honest my information is third hand from an American source who worked in Israel’s southern Negev Desert. That is all I am prepared to say. Pre-revolution work on Bushehr is irrelevant. Atomstroyexport signed the US$1 billion contract signed in 1995.

  320. anno

    12 Nov, 2010 - 4:07 pm

    University will not cost the student anything if they never earn more than £20K. The student should not be forced to enter a contract with any party that has the power to alter the contract unilaterally at a later date.

    The government, in common with Tony Blair at his book signing, likes to blame extremists, instead of recognising that students are correct to be angry about entering into a contract which can be changed later.

    They changed their electoral promises. didn’t they?

  321. alan campbell

    12 Nov, 2010 - 4:38 pm

  322. Suhayl Saadi

    12 Nov, 2010 - 5:28 pm

    God, Mark, you know some ‘hot’ and heavy people! And that’s even before considered the half-life.

  323. somebody

    12 Nov, 2010 - 5:41 pm

    Gas prices.

    Putting the screws on. B Gas raise prices by 7% because world prices have risen????

    What?

    Search Results for

    Is there a glut of gas

    CBC.ca E.ON, Total’s Natural Gas Glut Forecasts Show Buyer-Seller Rift? – 1 day ago

    “The gas glut will remain for the next decade,” Klaus Schaefer, … There’s currently a potential oversupply of 160 billion cubic meters globally, …

    Bloomberg – 597 related articles

    Easing the Natural Gas Glut? – Energy and Capital – 93 related articles

    Worldwide glut of gas, so why have our – Express.co.uk

    11 Nov 2010 … UK News :: Worldwide glut of gas, so why have our bills gone up? … was a low user of gas that all there customers who are low users do not …

    http://www.express.co.uk/…/Worldwide-glut-of-gas-so-why-have-our-bills-gone-up- -

    Gas glut threatens investment in renewables sector, IEA warns …

    9 Nov 2010 … There are environmental benefits to a gas glut because cheaper gas-fired plants are more likely to replace old coal plants, which emit twice …

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/09/gas-iea-oil-renewables -

    Natural gas: An unconventional glut | The Economist

    11 Mar 2010 … Some think there is far more. No one will really know until … These producers are already getting a taste of the global gas glut. …

    http://www.economist.com/realarticleid.cfm?redirect_id=15661889 -

    Natural Gas Glut Overwhelms Speculators, Defies Rally (Update3 …

    30 Nov 2009 … An “acute glut” is looming during the next five years because of rising shale gas production in the U.S. and Canada, the Paris-based …

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid...

    World gas glut will weaken ‘Russian grip on Europe’ – Times Online

    11 Nov 2009 … A looming glut in supplies of natural gas will trigger sliding prices and weaken Russia’s grip over Europe’s energy supplies, …

    business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/…/article6911660.ece – Similar

    Liars and thieves.

  324. Ruth

    12 Nov, 2010 - 8:24 pm

    I’ve learnt that whenever a government agency appears to be incompetent there’s a reason. To say the police didn’t anticipate the numbers of protesters is absurd. All the measures taken by the government over the last few years have been directed to contain the public in recession.

    To me the students were allowed access to the buildings and I very strongly suspect agents provocateur incited the violence. To set an example to the restless public these students will be given very, very heavy prison sentences.

    It also really concerns me that a totally innocent student may take the wrap for throwing the fire extinguisher.

  325. Roderick Russell

    12 Nov, 2010 - 9:13 pm

    Courtenay Barnett: Re Your Comment November 12 2:50 AM — Thank you for commenting. I appreciate it. I was unsure how to read your earlier comment that was just after my wife’s comment; which is why I sought some clarification.

    I am glad to hear from you that you heard nothing derogatory about me at all; you certainly shouldn’t have. I am sure you would agree with me that people who manufacture and deliberately spread slanderous smears about another, behind his back, are just “Pieces of Shit”.

    Just last month a book was published in Canada – “Our Friendly Neighbourhood Terrorist” by Mary-Jo Leddy – that describes CSIS’s 13 year old campaign of abuse at yet another innocent victim. Ms Leddy is a senior Nun and in the Order of Canada (equivalent of a knighthood); yet CSIS even tried to frame her up using a forged document. As you know other precedents of this sort of abuse by CSIS in Canada and by MI5/MI6 in the UK are outlined on pages 17 to 20 of my Report (Click on my signature) and their use of The Big Lie Technique is described on pages 26 to 30.

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  327. I can't believe its not Larry

    12 Nov, 2010 - 10:52 pm

    I too suspect the supposed incompetence of the Met was a bit too far fetched. It was beyond satire to hear Sir (no less) Paul Stephenson go on about “lessons will be learnt” he obviously was paying attention to dinner lady and former home secretary (no less) Jack Boot Jackie who appointed him. Maybe it was a way of allowing the students to let off steam, afterall what’s the cost of a few broken windows compared with the millions saved on university subsidies. However whoever dropped the fire extingusher needs a good talking to. It’s one thing to protest and smash up an ugly old office block but quite another to kill someone just doing out their job.,

  328. Ruth

    12 Nov, 2010 - 11:10 pm

    ‘It’s one thing to protest and smash up an ugly old office block but quite another to kill someone just doing out their job.’

    My point is that it may not have been a student but a student may be charged with attempted murder.

    I notice that the policeman who killed Tomlinson has not yet been charged with attempted murder or manslaughter.

  329. Ruth

    12 Nov, 2010 - 11:12 pm

    ‘It’s one thing to protest and smash up an ugly old office block but quite another to kill someone just doing out their job.’

    My point is that it may not have been a student but a student may be charged with attempted murder.

    I notice that the policeman who killed Tomlinson has not yet been charged with attempted murder or manslaughter.

  330. anno

    13 Nov, 2010 - 12:21 am

    In 1986 I painted ‘ I hate Mrs Thatcher’ on the walls of the local Conservative HQ.

    That was because I could see that the logic of her financial reforms would expose our economy to banker corruption. I was !00% right. I told them so at the time and I was !00% ignored.

    The current batch of Tories are the wasters who clung on to the driftwood of the party after her downfall. I don’t see them as devious schemers who want violent police confrontation against protest like New Labour. I see them as wankers who think Thatcherism was misunderstood, and should be practised more strictly than before.

    They re-painted the building after my graffiti. The Tory mind is not just closed, but hermetically sealed against any process of self-evaluation. Can any of you imagine what it feels like to be poor when you are told that you will lose the right to benefits if you don’t take some ghastly job? The rich who are swilling in advantages and opportunities want to cut off the oxygen of the poor.

    Whoever threw an offensive weapon against innocent policemen doing their job, was completely demented. Like me 24 years earlier, they can see the appalling logic of the policy staring them in the face. They can see that these tuition fees will fundamentally disempower those who do not believe in the gospel of Thatcherism. People who are not interested in money will not be able to go to university any more.

    The Thatcher policies have bankrupted the world, and their worshippers still want to find a way of excluding those who disagree with them from getting a good education and articulation of their ideas. Caputalism is indeed caput if it can’t cope with the welfare state or the slightest opposition to the strict orthodoxy of their bananas ideas.

    Totalitarian New Labour wasted their chance to reverse Thatcherism, and the Lib-Dems have now wasted their chance to oppose it, in opposition to both main parties. The formation of a coalition has bought out the only opposition to Thatcher insanity. You will see more acts of people insanity as a result of common-sense being stitched up completely at Westminster. It’s their bonkers, not ours.

  331. Laissez nous faire

    13 Nov, 2010 - 7:54 am

  332. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Nov, 2010 - 8:31 am

    There are agents provocateur working within protest organisations/ bodies. They are often the ones who urge violence. I also agree with Ruth about the ‘incompetance’ smokescreen wrt security organisations. I think it is a possibility that their agents may have stimulated the violence, and that the police may have allowed it to happen, very deliberately.

    Having said that, I think there have been lots of peaceful demos against the Govt’s policies hardly reported in the media. The media too must share responsibility – they tend to report demos only when violence occurs; this sensationalism not journalism; but it means that people know that to get attention, they need to be violent.

    Also, 1 million marched peacefully against the Iraq invasion, I suspect partly deluded (understandably; I realise not everyone who joined was so deluded, but it was a cultural factor) by pictures of the Colour Revolutions into believing that such demos by themselves can achieve results. Result? Complete failure and – and this is crucial – demoralisation.

    Poll Tax, late 1980s: Violent demos in London. Result: Thatcher fell (it was the beginning of the end for her).

    However, in the Miners’ Strike, 1984-85: violence was committed by the state (Army-in-disguise and Police) mainly, deliberately attacking and provoking the miners. But as we know, the miners failed for other reasons.

    People draw conclusions wrt violent disorder. But the strategic context is crucial.

  333. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Nov, 2010 - 8:32 am

    anno, all power to your pen – and your paint-tins!! The fire extinguisher alleged incident will now become the focus, not the trillion dollar crimes of the Govt/ ruling elite.

  334. somebody

    13 Nov, 2010 - 9:09 am

    Ruth, Anno and Suhayl – Right on.

    Two or three other things of interest.

    …We were told that the NHS was ‘ring fenced’ yet cuts are taking place and 25,000 jobs are to go. Therefore the pressure on the remaining staff to carry the workload will be enormous and stressful. NHS Surrey have to find ‘savings’ of £125m and will introduce a system of Fast Steady Stop. Amazing is’nt it. ‘The NHS is safe is our hands’ or some such lie – Cameron.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-11737318

    …I read that Sir Malcolm Rifkind is the new chairman of the Intelligence Committee

    …Laissez nous faire @7.54am

    Trillion pound horror story – a fact free polemic/tripe and onions. See the thread on medialens beginning http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1289516327.html

  335. Vronsky

    13 Nov, 2010 - 9:30 am

    @Ruth at November 12, 2010 8:24 PM

    My thoughts precisely. I also note the scare word ‘anarchist’ being thrown around. All the anarchists I know are pacifist pussycats. Perhaps ‘anarchist’ is being positioned to become the domestic version of ‘al qaeda’ – team terror playing at home. Or will they be called ‘insurgents’? It’s all increasingly deja vu: tinyurl.com/3568zy4

  336. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 9:53 am

    “My thoughts precisely. I also note the scare word ‘anarchist’ being thrown around. All the anarchists I know are pacifist pussycats. Perhaps ‘anarchist’ is being positioned to become the domestic version of ‘al qaeda’ – team terror playing at home.”

    I think you’re about one hundred years too late for that. Ever read “The Secret Agent” by Joseph Conrad? Or remember the assassinations of President McKinley, Alexander II, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, King Umberto (I think?). The Anarchist concept of “Propaganda of the deed” was often widely interpreted by many anarchists to mean violence against society in order to destroy governments. I suppose in some ways it has a parallel with the concept of “jihad” in that many who self-identify as believers have wildly conflicting interpretations from peaceful to terrorist violence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_deed

    It has long been considered that “anarchism” means complete disorder and chaos even though the original meaning was of a unicorn-and-rainbow-society-without-government.

    It doesn’t help, of course, that some self-styled anarchists positively revelled in chaos, disorder and violence:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bash-Rich-True-Confessions-Anarchist/dp/0954417771

    I’ve not read the whole book but the excerpts I did read were hilariously written celebrations of violence. Completely irresponsible, of course, but very funny.

  337. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 10:04 am

    Here’s a few excerpts:

    “The details of all the events in this book are a true and accurate record to the best of the the [sic] author’s recollection. However, in order to protect the guilty, some names have been changed. Also, we have substituted names to protect the identity of individuals where they could be charged with acts of riot, conspiracy and public order offences resulting from their attempt to overthrow the state or from having a good old ruck with the law. In particular, when Class War caused damage to property through riot we have substituted the names of those responsible for the majority of the trashing and violence…”

    “We’re part of a mob charging down Fenchurch Street with black flags flying like a Makhnovist column ?” unfortunately, unlike the Makhnovists, we ain’t got any weapons. There’s not many weapons that come to hand in the city, and the cops have taken care to remove street furniture and builder’s rubble. But look! I kid you not ?” a … lorry load of bricks hones into view. A swarm of anarcho-locusts strip it bare within minutes, windows caving in like dominoes along the street. There’s some … huge bank windows about 50 foot high, but some proletarian typists are sitting behind them, blissfully ignorant that they’re about to be guillotined by huge shards of glass. Charlie does his Marcel Marceau bit, bangs in window to get typists’ attention, points to brick in his hand, steps back and mimes throwing brick through window. Typists scarper sharpish. Charlie’s brick arcs its mime through the window. A … huge whoop at such ethical brick-throwing and we’re off.”

    “We are now surrounded by the cops outside the Red Lion pub but the toffs are still too scared to cross the bridge. We launch into a few choruses of The Rich, The Rich, We Gotta Get Rid of the Rich and assorted battle cries of ‘rich scum.’ The bridge is blocked by cops and their tow-away vehicles. The cops pick me out and threaten to arrest anyone who doesn’t move on. We’ve got to break out of here before we get corralled in. We filter away in twos and threes to resume our guerrilla marauding around Henley. A BMW is turned over to cheers, the Tory Club window goes in, fists start to fly, and some hoorays decide to sunbathe fully clothed in the streets. First celebrity victim ?” a straw boatered Rick Wakeman is knocked out cold and hospitalised! Bricks and bottles fly over back lanes into the gardens of the rich mansions as startled sunbathers flee inside. Now a Mercedes has gone over, all its windows caved in. Posh cars are booted as their drivers try to speed pass us, cops vans sirens blazing are racing around trying to keep up with the action. A few vicious little rucks break out with the steroid-rich rowing crews… ..”

    http://hurryupharry.org/2010/04/10/class-war-remembered/

  338. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 10:12 am

  339. Vronsky

    13 Nov, 2010 - 10:42 am

  340. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 10:56 am

    Yes, Vronsky. Very interesting.

  341. somebody

    13 Nov, 2010 - 11:59 am

    How’s the weather in Osaka today?

    http://angrysoba.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.html

  342. somebody

    13 Nov, 2010 - 12:01 pm

    A brave and principled woman Vronsky.

    http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/

  343. ingo

    13 Nov, 2010 - 1:16 pm

    Ruth, I agree with your sentiments over agent provocateurs. It is unlikely that the intelligence was not available, unliukely that they did not know of 50.000 students and unlikely that they thought 250 coppers were sufficient.

    It si also unlikely that any of these few officers saw the student loosing grip on the fire extinguisher and accidentally dropping it to the ground, thankfully missing all and sundry.

    It could have killed on of his fellow students or passers by. The specualtions that it could have hit a policeman are far fetched as there were only a few on duty that day.

    If anyyone keeping contact with NUS students or branches, please, forward my regards, please suggest that they discuss their next efforts to be a decentralised demonstration, rather than making it very easy for the police.

    If we all join in in our respective regional localities, we can maker an impact. Ideally with suggestions on how to cut management and tiers of councils, who needs the same amount of councillors and officers for lesser services?

    Do councils nationally still serve subsidised food to staff?

    Can district councils task be taken over by county councils? Cuts should not be heaped on the tax payer, the wretched goo’ed up system needs reforming, but it won’t happen, so we have to make em’ sit up and listen, our way.

  344. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:00 pm

    “How’s the weather in Osaka today?”

    It was a bit cloudy and a little chilly but no rain.

  345. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:03 pm

    How’s the weather with you?

  346. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:19 pm

    “Ruth, I agree with your sentiments over agent provocateurs. It is unlikely that the intelligence was not available, unliukely that they did not know of 50.000 students and unlikely that they thought 250 coppers were sufficient.”

    ?

    I don’t think that any “agent provocateurs” were necessary. Do you? It looks like there were plenty of people there who were up for smashing in a few windows. It’s a bit daft to think they were all on the government payroll.

    Mind you, that could explain why there weren’t many filf there. Maybe they were understaffed because so many of them were on agent provocateur duty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUzKh5bX0tg&feature=related

  347. somebody

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:19 pm

    Just checking! Much the same here but quite mild.

    This is a good letter. The writer has swallowed a dictionary but Clegg as a ‘wolf-eyed replicant’ is marvellous.

    http://chinamieville.net/post/1361955242/letter-to-a-progressive-liberal-democrat

  348. ingo

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:20 pm

    Is capitalism pushing us all towards the end of times? Are we being herede into oblivion and amageddon?

    This professor seems to think so.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2010/11/201011111191189923.html

  349. somebody

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:36 pm

    Angrysoba A propos of nothing your weather report doesn’t match this. I call these temperatures mild.

    http://www.weather-forecast.com/locations/Osaka/forecasts/latest

  350. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:42 pm

    “I call these temperatures mild.”

    And so does your weather report.

    I call those temperatures chilly compared to this:

    http://tinyurl.com/3xzwdhe

  351. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:46 pm

    “Is capitalism pushing us all towards the end of times? Are we being herede into oblivion and amageddon?

    This professor seems to think so.”

    Careful, you might out Fear-peddle the Fear-mongering MSM.

  352. Secret Jewish Agent

    13 Nov, 2010 - 2:53 pm

    On my God! You 911 Truthers are finally figuring out our deception!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qYQq0QnZnU

  353. somebody

    13 Nov, 2010 - 3:37 pm

    Did anyone watch the dreadful Downton Abbey series, class ridden and harking back in time?

    This is a good take on it. I like Cable as the butler.

    http://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/covers/full/1275_big.jpg

  354. ingo

    13 Nov, 2010 - 4:12 pm

    Is it because he’s foreign, or renown, or should we just bent over and stick our heads into that hole, no hear no see, no nthin’…

    Except, hang on, whats that long shaft up our backsides….

    Angry, Zizek, if you have listened to the interview with Riz Khan, is raising the eceptre of fatalism at the heart of our capitalist system.

    he raises the conundrum that, although recognsing all the signs of global warming, we are hopelessly unable and feeble to deal with it, in utter denial.

    Democracy and capitalism, always mentioned as the panacea of western systems, are not mutually exclusive to each other, indeed, they are moving away from each other the more globalisation takes hold.

    We accept others in the world, undemocratic countries, with tolerance, but is it not insecurity and the fact that we do not want others to shine a light on our own intolerances, that makes us accept these norms?

    His points are valid and he is open to debate, why don’t you angry, it might widen your readership.

  355. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Nov, 2010 - 5:05 pm

    No, it doesn’t require agents provocateur to be at work, but there is no question that the history of protest movements – even small, local ones about rubbish-tips, etc. – demonstrates that not only do the various agencies of the state almost obsessively and sometimes comprehensively (it helps to justify their budgets and in essence work generates work) infiltrate such groups, such agents often are involved.

    In the end, in a farcical situation, the spies end-up reporting largely on the activities of other spies, because organisations end-up almost being run by agents of the state and because sometimes these agents are being run by different organs of the state (Special Branch, MI5, the nuclear industry, whatever) and/ or work in isolation or as part of small cells (just like terrorist groups) and are kept in ignorance about any other infiltrators.

    The ‘secret’, then, is to assume infiltration and to continue, regardless (but cleverly) and to operate on the assumption that everything is known and that everything will be open and known to all. And also to be very wary indeed of anyone, esp, if they have risen rapidly to a senior position, who seems consistently to be exorting people to violence.

    The fact is, in most demonstrations, most often violence comes from the representatives of the state (in or out of uniform) and is planned.

  356. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 5:17 pm

    “Is it because he’s foreign, or renown, or should we just bent over and stick our heads into that hole, no hear no see, no nthin’…”

    No, why on Earth would you think I think that?

    It’s because when I read, “Is capitalism pushing us all towards the end of times? Are we being herede into oblivion and amageddon?”

    I tend to think, “no”. And when I walk past someone with a sandwich-board that reads “The End of the World is Nigh!” I don’t start panicking, copulating in the streets and scaring the horses.

    Sensationalism is a good way of selling books and I doubt Zizek would sell so many if he had called his book “A Few Rather Troublesome Developments I See on the Horizon” and after a lifetime of postmodern scribblings on Lacan and Derrida and whoever else I expect he could write a whole book on how to write unpickupable books so he probably needs a kick-back from the anti-market market which is, as you know, quite marketable in these here end of days.

  357. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 5:23 pm

    Suhayl,

    I am not saying infiltration doesn’t happen. It certainly does and those who infiltrate groups tend to commit plenty of violence. I know.

    But anyone with eyes to see knows that that building wasn’t being smashed up purely by undercover cops and MI5. There were far too many of them for that. And it is quite clear that there was plenty of support for their actions.

    It would of course be ironic, and perhaps make a good novel or film, if the government was overthrown by an opposition made up entirely of agent provocateurs and infiltrators put there by the government who become wildly popular with the public they hoped to suppress and molify with pantomimes of street violence.

  358. Vronsky

    13 Nov, 2010 - 5:28 pm

    “perhaps make a good novel”

    ‘The Man Who Was Thursday, a Nightmare’ (G K Chesterton)

    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1695

  359. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Nov, 2010 - 5:30 pm

    Of course, it may well have been wholly ‘genuine’ (if that’s the right word), ‘authentic’. But it only takes one agent to trigger a riot (good title for a memoir!).

    Another good book, btw, is Stuart Christie’s ‘Granny Made Me an Anarchist’.

    Of course, ‘the anarchists are coming’ has been a scare tactic used by UK authorities for a century or more.

  360. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 5:33 pm

    “‘The Man Who Was Thursday, a Nightmare’ (G K Chesterton)”

    Aha! It’s all been done before, it seems.

    In fact, I seem to remember that the book is often spoken of in the same breath as “The Secret Agent”. I haven’t read Chesterton’s book, though.

  361. angrysoba

    13 Nov, 2010 - 5:42 pm

    “Of course, ‘the anarchists are coming’ has been a scare tactic used by UK authorities for a century or more.”

    Yes, but it is also a radical pose adopted by some studenty types who might not actually be that interested in living in an anarchist community (it would probably be a bit dull, let’s face it) who are also then interested in the violent revolutionary image.

    I know people who are genuinely anarchists and, as Vronsky said, they tend to be more on the ultra-pacifist and gentle-reasoning end of the spectrum of political activities. In fact, some of them are simply waiting for the rest of humanity to catch up with them.

    Also, it isn’t just in the UK that anarchists were treated as trouble. Anarchists have faced far more brutal treatment elsewhere:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amakasu_Incident

  362. somebody

    13 Nov, 2010 - 6:08 pm

    The poor old Irish people are about to be hauled over the coals/taken to the cleaners by the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11750676

  363. ingo

    13 Nov, 2010 - 6:20 pm

    Anarchism is troubled, as Suhayl so aptly said, almost every circle of interest groups has been infiltrated, including the anarchists.

    But if we assume they are, this also purveys a paranoic notion of distrust, undermining themselves from within.

    Thanks for pointing out that anarchists have had a rough ride everywhere, angry, and they still do, but so do many other disperate organisations who try and press a new lifestyle on others, the religiously brainwashed such as the Waco misguided, or Italy’s bourgoise red brigades.

    What has just appeared to me is this, should we asked whether an increasingly repressive system, able and willing to do anything to keep the establishment demure and proffering, has a symbiotic relationship with anarchism, a tool to justify ever greater repression.

    What say?

  364. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Nov, 2010 - 6:44 pm

  365. Vronsky

    13 Nov, 2010 - 8:19 pm

    “I know people who are genuinely anarchists and, as Vronsky said, they tend to be more on the ultra-pacifist and gentle-reasoning end of the spectrum of political activities. In fact, some of them are simply waiting for the rest of humanity to catch up with them.”

    Gosh, angry, you’ve floored me. I didn’t expect you to want to notice that. Perhaps we might agree in a general way that arguments should not be dismissed by giving them derogatory labels?

  366. Vronsky

    13 Nov, 2010 - 8:40 pm

    I know you’re all going to sigh and cover a yawn, but a samizdat is beginning to appear in Scotland. Try this stuff (tinyurl.com/3y768jy) on libertarian socialism (it’s about hope, so I’ve finally posted something on topic).

  367. Suhayl Saadi

    13 Nov, 2010 - 9:28 pm

    ‘Bella Caledonia’. Its front page editorial is by Kevin Williamson, who set up Rebel Inc. (that story is fascinating in itself). His work – indeed possibly even his artistic-political raison d’etre – has always been genuinely cutting-edge and radical. I respect Kevin Williamson, even though, to my knowledge, I’ve never met him and I certainly do not know him personally.

    There are some who are genuinely cutting-edge and others who might be described as, ‘The Latest Pretender’. It’s the difference b/w real and fake.

    Intriguing, and possibly emblematic, account in relation to the publishing industry [at the mention of that term, I need to ingest tranqillisers, for fear otherwise of exerting as powerful a gravitationjal influence as a neutron star].

    The webzine looks very interesting – thanks, Vronsky, for this info.

  368. anno

    14 Nov, 2010 - 12:15 am

    If there is a deep state, a political hierarchy above Foreign Office, Intelligence services and Westminster, it must be subject to the same flaws as all other political organisations. Politics is the art of self-promotion. Politicians are always in it for themselves first. They are always trading. Who’s buying, is also selling. Who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. Treachery is the word.

    So, if there is a deep state, sending its officers racing up to the top floor to cascade fire extinguishers on the crowd, in order to disgrace justified protest against unfair laws, or placing bombs under innocent passengers in order to pin the blame on Muslims and steal their hydro-carbons, then there is hope.

    Politicians’ self-obsession is also self-destruction. There is never unity of purpose amongst the political class.

    If I was cynical enough to believe in a deep state, I would breathe a sigh of relief. Because it would be far less likely to achieve its purpose than the fatuous, shallow morons we see in the media from the surface political class, the Sawers, diplomats and MPs.

    And what a thankless task. They are constantly scheming how to steer the British public into becoming slave-zombies, and the slave-zombies constantly take no notice, play up and see through the crap that the deep state serves them. Did you see that demonstration where they smashed the glass of the Tory headquarters? Not my problem. Just another deep state think-they-know-everything media scam for the cameras. Will you put another pint in this glass?

  369. blecch handbags

    14 Nov, 2010 - 1:02 am

    “‘The Man Who Was Thursday, a Nightmare’ (G K Chesterton)”

    See also “The Sentimental Agents in the Volyen Empire” (Doris Lessing)

  370. Courtenay Barnett

    14 Nov, 2010 - 1:18 am

    @ All ?” for the record,

    “COURTENAY BARNETT ?” Your comments Nov 7 – !:11 AM & 1:24 AM. I found your comments yesterday to be distasteful and out of character for you. And then I remembered that you were working in the Caribbean area (T & C) and wondered if you had heard any rumours that appeared to show me in a bad light and that might cause these comments.

    Just to recap, you will recall from earlier posting on August 29 that I too had worked in the Caribbean – Indeed, I had worked on some potential time share projects that related to Cuba, and in Jamaica as CFO of Sandals Resorts International (the hotel management arm of Sandals). I did an excellent job in all respects. But then when one is dealing with a manufactured (intelligence agency driven) slander campaign it can come from all angles, where one least expects it. As Cartoonist said about Zerzetsen (Zerzetsen) slanders … “It’s about manipulating people or groups of people by typical STASI methods (hearsay, gossip, lies, spreading rumours about someone … the list goes on).”

    I found your comments yesterday to be completely out of character for you, and I wondered why. Then I recalled you were working in the T&C and almost certainly will have met * several people * who do business in the relatively small T&C community and know of me. For example, as a lawyer yourself, do you perhaps know my old friend Ian Phillipson – who was the Sandals lawyer, and partner to a former Prime Minister of Jamaica?? You shouldn’t have heard anything negative about me from any source whatsoever. But if you have, you do me a favour by telling me — Is there anything you should be telling me?? ”

    - And ?”

    “Roderick: I don’t think Courtenay was not fully aware at first of the history of that troll team in relation to the persistent attacks on you, or indeed in general with respect to this blog. I sense he came to realise it after looking back through the posts/threads, etc. I’m sure he can answer for himself, though – this is just my impression.

    What’s T and C, btw, is that ‘Turks and Caicos’? Looks idyllic!”

    - And ?”

    “Roderick,

    There is no rumour, forget it, just read ‘Courtenay’ again – you will see he is ridiculing Larry’s slippery attempt at staring into the minds of others, in this case your mind, that is why he has involved you.

    Courtney’s insight has surprised me he is an asset as you are, and your experiences are firmly in my conscious.”

    Oh! Oh! Let’s not forget the great, the incredible, the magnificent, the absolutely luminous ( incredibly so) ?” “LARRY FROM ST. LOUIS” WHO SAID ?” BEHOLD!

    “So Courtenay links to a video by the failed Mr. Kollerstrom, who is a:

    1. 7/7 denier;

    2. 911 denier; and

    3. Holocaust denier.

    I’m still amazed at what scumbags inhabit this blog.”

    THE MAGNFICICENT LARRY HAS SPOKEN YET AGAIN ?” INCREDIBLY SO. I NOW MUST ATTEND THE SCHOOL THAT LARRY WAS TRAINED AT ?” ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE TALENT THIS MAN IS ?” MUST LEARN MORE ?” SOON ?” VERY SOON ?” NAME OF SCHOOL LARRY?

    Look all ?” ( Larry excluded):-

    I SIMPLY BLOG AND EXPRESS MY HONEST OPINONS ?” AND ANYONE IS FREE TO SAY I AM RIGHT OR WRONG OR SOMEWHERE ELSE THAT THE EXPRESSED OPINION/POST MIGHT BE PLACED. SO RODERICK AND OTHERS ?” THAT IS HOW IT IS. NO HIDDEN AGENDAS. WHAT YOU SEE IS LITERALLY ?” WHAT YOU GET FROM ME.

  371. Courtenay Barnett

    14 Nov, 2010 - 1:31 am

    @ Anon,

    “If I was cynical enough to believe in a deep state, I would breathe a sigh of relief. Because it would be far less likely to achieve its purpose than the fatuous, shallow morons we see in the media from the surface political class, the Sawers, diplomats and MPs.”

    What then do you say about the intelligence community.The arms trading factions and the “independent money” related thereto?

  372. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    14 Nov, 2010 - 2:09 am

    Good responses ‘Ruth’ – I adore comments with a sting in the tail – and I also note ‘Courtenay’ is on form.

    Suhayl – ‘hot’ contacts may give one a very slight edge but is it not without risk. I was interrogated on ‘webcameron’ by an ‘agent’ called ‘therealelvis’ who seemed to think I knew too much. I totally believe ‘Roderick’ and his frightening experience; I too have been ‘buzzed’ by very low noisy helicopters in the wee hours – not something for the faint hearted.

  373. somebody

    14 Nov, 2010 - 8:34 am

    Was it not galling to hear Gen Richards spouting what could be a football chant – Al Qaeda will never be defeated – in the light of the loss of life and the destruction of a people and the land that has been taking place over the last 10 years? He says that the logic of the invasion was flawed.

    WE ALL KNEW THAT GENERAL RICHARDS AND SOME OF US HAVE BEEN SAYING IT SINCE 2001.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11751888

  374. Suhayl Saadi

    14 Nov, 2010 - 8:56 am

    Okay, Courtenay, thanks.

  375. Suhayl Saadi

    14 Nov, 2010 - 9:18 am

    Mark, please tell us about those awful experiences – ‘therealelvis’ (please explain what you mean) and the helicopter. What exactly is ‘webcameron’? Are you saying someone contacted you via e-mail to interview you and they were really acting for the state? And the helicopter buzzed you in your home? I think it’s important that people who have been subjected to such things share their experiences, partly because there is such pressure on ‘commentators’ to apply derision of individuals who assert that they have been the victims of these tactics.

    So far, among the regular commentators on this blog, I’ve counted five, or possibly six: yourself, Roderick, Ruth, Courtenay, Craig himself and possibly Anno (though I may be being presumptuous in relating his ‘black magic’ descriptor as something equally sinister but more mundane; I apologise in advance for this). I may have missed some others out – again, apologies.

    The superlative Scottish poet, Tom Leonard, once wrote a poem about it, entitled, ‘The Fair Cop’:

    http://www.tomleonard.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=49

    Tom’s website (minus the usual prefixes) is at:

    tomleonard.co.uk/

    So I think it can be a powerful act to expose such practices, to make public these matters, partly because some of their power over us resides in the imbalance b/w the massive corporate/ state entity and the individual and partly because suffering in secret and alone can be (metaphorically and in some cases, also literally) disabling. Going public, not as an individual but as a group or a mass, imparts power and to some extent, credibility. In a word, Solidarity.

    Over to you, sir.

  376. angrysoba

    14 Nov, 2010 - 9:57 am

    “Gosh, angry, you’ve floored me. I didn’t expect you to want to notice that. Perhaps we might agree in a general way that arguments should not be dismissed by giving them derogatory labels?”

    Not all arguments are equal. I don’t think that socialist libertarianism needs to be dismissed with a derogatory label; anarchism wasn’t a derogatory label anyway. On the other hand, someone’s argument that the world is ruled by ten foot lizards doesn’t deserve as much respect. So I can’t agree that arguments cannot per se be dismissed with a derogatory label; it is far more economical to do so in some cases.

    But if you do believe arguments must not be dismissed with derogatory labels, are you sure you apply this consistently?

  377. Anonymous

    14 Nov, 2010 - 11:04 am

    Suhayl’s comment,’So I think it can be a powerful act to expose such practices, to make public these matters, partly because some of their power over us resides in the imbalance b/w the massive corporate/ state entity and the individual and partly because suffering in secret and alone can be (metaphorically and in some cases, also literally) disabling. Going public, not as an individual but as a group or a mass, imparts power and to some extent, credibility.’is absolutely right.

    And also for your own safety it’s much better having everything out in the open. The intelligence services will think twice before doing anything serious because if they do, everybody will know the injury would be attributable to them.

  378. Anonymous

    14 Nov, 2010 - 11:06 am

    Suhayl’s comment,’So I think it can be a powerful act to expose such practices, to make public these matters, partly because some of their power over us resides in the imbalance b/w the massive corporate/ state entity and the individual and partly because suffering in secret and alone can be (metaphorically and in some cases, also literally) disabling. Going public, not as an individual but as a group or a mass, imparts power and to some extent, credibility.’is absolutely right.

    And also for your own safety it’s much better having everything out in the open. The intelligence services will think twice before doing anything serious because if they do, everybody will know the injury would be attributable to them.

  379. Anonymous

    14 Nov, 2010 - 11:08 am

    Suhayl’s comment,’So I think it can be a powerful act to expose such practices, to make public these matters, partly because some of their power over us resides in the imbalance b/w the massive corporate/ state entity and the individual and partly because suffering in secret and alone can be (metaphorically and in some cases, also literally) disabling. Going public, not as an individual but as a group or a mass, imparts power and to some extent, credibility.’is absolutely right.

    And also for your own safety it’s much better having everything out in the open. The intelligence services will think twice before doing anything serious because if they do, everybody will know the injury would be attributable to them.

  380. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    14 Nov, 2010 - 12:45 pm

    I agree ‘anonymous’ obviously, but I am still somewhat reluctant to relate my own experiences with this type of hassle. Let’s be honest we are trying to combat ‘fear’ and associated tactics not generate more fear. However I have much respect for ‘Suhayl’ so I am answering his questions.

    Suhayl,

    ‘webcameron’ was a ‘new media’ Conservative experiment now defunct but can be viewed here:

    web.archive.org/web/*/http://webcameron.org.uk

    ‘therealelvis’ was the anonym of a commenter on ‘webcameron’ who thought I knew too much and wanted to know my sources.

    I have had a ‘death threat’ via email coia[at]coia.org.uk. It was routed via Pakistan and warned me not to go out after 8pm else I would be shot. The mail was full of expletives. A helicopter flew over my house at around 500 feet while my wife was in the garden and hovered for several minutes before flying off.

  381. ingo

    14 Nov, 2010 - 1:02 pm

    Mark you have my sympathy, you must be doing something right. Could you physically move, bit by bit? could you have two abodes? one for emergency which you never use, until that helicopter tries to land.

    Is kite flying forbidden in Baghdad? how about a few helium ballons with your charity advert, permanently flying some 100 feet over your house?

    You have us here, should anything at all happen, make sure you have a computer ready to tell us about it from a different isp so to speak.

    Same for Suhayl, any squid you get let us know on here, I would not be surprised if we all get some harrassment in future.

  382. Suhayl Saadi

    14 Nov, 2010 - 1:26 pm

    Mark, thank you very much indeed. I am very grateful to you, on all counts.

    Naive statement:

    I think that it is high time for an open and extensive public debate, in the MSM, about the role of the intelligence and security services in a complex capitalist democracy and on their white, grey and black budgets, the fiduciary outsourcings of pertinence.

    John Sawyers, Head of the SIS, recently went public about his organisation. Whatever his agenda, in some senses, this surely could be regarded arguably as a licence for the MSM to open a debate about the role of the security and intelligence complex – both state and increasingly, in the private sector, as well as in relation to the revolving door b/w the two.

    The debate should involve people who’ve had experiences such as Mark’s, Roderick, Ruth’s, Craig’s and Courtenay’s (as related on this blog), as well as enormously intelligent and experienced ex-diplomats like Iain Orr, Craig Murray, Brian Barder and Charles Crawford, as well as whistleblowers like Annie Machon (and yet again, Craig Murray), and those who have studied the area – Stephen Dorril, David Miller and Robin Ramsay. It should not simply involve the likes of Con Coughlin, Frank Gardner, Dominic Lawson et al.

    It should be conducted in the intelligent manner of that on the thread on this website about the receipt of information from torture, in which nextus and technicolour had central roles.

    It should be ground-breaking and should shirk from no area – financial (tax havens, VAT, etc), assassination, the arms industry, academia, infiltration of activist groups, disruption of oppositional media, intimidation of those who refuse to spy for them, the exponential rise in, and strategic use of, private armies, etc.

    In a corporate police state, the sec-intel complex focus increasingly on internal dissent rather than simply countering espionage/ genuine terrorist threats, etc. Control of the population and of the discourses within that population and their representatives, elected, career and appointed, becomes the prime directive. Protection of (essentially transnational; their flags and anthems are those of convenience rather than conscience, their loyalty is to themselves and their very narrow class) elite interests trumps any concept of ‘national interest’.

    There is always a tendency for this to happen and has been right from the creation of Special Branch, the SS and the SIS. Now we have a powerful and (I think) unregulated private sector sec-intel machine as well which operates in the UK and abroad.

    This would not be in the name of generating more fear, sensationalism or hysteria, but in pursuit of truth and genuine democracy. In pursuit of Enlightenment values. In furtherance of ‘our way of life’.

    I told you it was going to be a naive statement.

    The fact that no-one in their right mind could ever conceive of such a debate actually occurring in the public mass media itself is a powerful illustration of just how extensive the controls on the discourse are.

  383. Suhayl Saadi

    14 Nov, 2010 - 1:57 pm

    This dovetails to some extent with Kevin Williamson’s comment (in web and actual ‘zine, ‘Bella Caledonia’, the link to which kindly was provided by Vronsky earlier in this thread) that writers can play a crucial (oppositional and redefining) role in shaping the terms of the discourse. And by writers, I don’t mean just people like Alasdair Gray and the late (great) Angus Calder, I mean people who intelligently ‘host and/or post’ on blogs as well. I think it’s very important. There should be no sense of futility about it. It is not synonymous with, but rather complementary to, actual physical activism.

    In some ways, without puffing-up either the genre or our little selves beyond what is realistic, it is a tribute to the potential importance of cyber-blogs that they should be infiltrated and disrupted in precisely the ways we have seen on this blog over the past few months/ years. But it must always be re-connected in some way with real activism, and I sense, from the comments made by a number of bloggers here, that many who post here are so connected.

  384. somebody

    14 Nov, 2010 - 3:08 pm

    If you thought there was something fishy about the Oct 21 cathedral killings in Baghdad plus all the other bombs and killings that are happening, you should have a look at this.

    Mossad….again.

    http://www.maskofzion.com/2010/11/baghdad-cathedral-massacre-zionist.html

  385. anno

    14 Nov, 2010 - 3:52 pm

    Courtenay

    I was picking up on Craig’s comment that the political class is non-ideological, merely seeking to secure their own careers. And I wondered whether those in the deep state whom you list were different from normal types of political animals. Are they purposeful and united?

    Has this skid-to-halt emergency stop of the world economy altered the force of gravity or swapped the magnetic poles?

    The human chain that delivers mobiles or food on the shelves of our supermarkets etc is bigger and more organised than them. I always thought under the last dose of Tory rule that normality continued in spite of government and not because of them.

  386. Suhayl Saadi

    14 Nov, 2010 - 5:16 pm

    somebody, that is an incredibly powerful article, thanks. It was written by Jonathan Azazieh, who is of Jewish origin. His own family’s story is amazing; it’s the type of narrative of which we never hear.

    http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3075

  387. anno

    14 Nov, 2010 - 11:51 pm

    The points made in the Mask of Zion article are the acknowledged truth of the USUKIS invasion of Iraq, by all the people of Kurdistan. The only difference being that the Iraqi leaders that its author politely calls collaborators, are universally referred to as pimps in Kurdistan.

  388. anno

    15 Nov, 2010 - 12:10 am

    The points made in Jonathon Azizeh’s article, The Mask of Zion, are the acknowledged truth of the UKUSIS invasion of Iraq, by all the people of Kurdistan.

    The only difference being that the (some of them, newly re-elected) Iraqi leaders whom its author politely calls collaborators, are universally referred to as pimps in Kurdistan.

  389. anno

    15 Nov, 2010 - 12:39 am

    The Mask of Zion, the UK as people see us from Kurdistan.

  390. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    15 Nov, 2010 - 1:20 am

    So powerful in fact Suhayl Craig’s site went off-line!!

    Let there be no doubt whatsoever the Zionist state of Israel is a monster beyond control and that all efforts for peace in the Middle-East are doomed to failure. It will never be revealed but I can tell you with all sincerity that even our own intelligence services have NO control on the disproportionate power Israel possesses that enables its agents to plant bombs in Britain, violate international law and enjoy immunity from being held accountable before the international community.

    Remember Britain and France colluded with Israel in the 1956 invasion of Egypt to overthrow Nasser and take back the Suez Canal which he had nationalized. Since 1967 our will to oblige Israel to behave like a normal state has evaporated and now the ‘terror war’ is a prelude to a new world order where force is the dominant factor.

    Even though Robin Cook (PBUH) warned me I have been naive to the power of deception, even believing Wikileaks was genuine. Now I know it’s presence is another Zionist hell-hole and annoyingly I fell (along with others) for ‘treat and trick’ – a clever intelligence game.

    For that I apologise because I intend to outwit these Zionist bastards. My children and grand-children are NOT taking the burden of my quiescence and lassitude because a Zionist world order is polar, is antithetical to my order and theirs.

  391. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 7:48 am

    Yes, I noticed that. It went off-line as I posted my 5:16pm post on 14.11.10 – I had difficulty posting it, it seemed to take forever and never actually seemed to get posted – but I see now that it did in the end. It was off-line still at around 2100 hrs. Was it for routine maintenance, or what? Perhaps the webmaster could let us know.

    The info. about what’s been happening over the decades to some of the Mizrahim (Jewish people from Arab. Iranian, etc. countries) and Ethiopic people in Israel at the hands of the state is shocking – I had no idea about this.

    Azaziah, a Brooklyn MC based in Florida, seems to reference his articles extensively and seems extremely well-informed. I know that this by itself is not necessarily a guarantee of analytical accuracy, but at the very least it throws a healthy dose of skepticism into the mix. At most, it exposes key aspects of the machine. His views on Wikipedia, for example, are very interesting, esp. in the context of the discussion we had on another thread here on CM’s blog.

    In some senses, one is pleasantly surprised that he manages to get away with it, in view of what happened to Lila Rajiva, for example. I did try, however, to access his myspace page, but could not.

  392. Vronsky

    15 Nov, 2010 - 10:58 am

    “The superlative Scottish poet, Tom Leonard”

    Synchronicity – I’ve just bought ‘Outside the Narrative’. I used occasionally to have a pint with Tom, many years ago, when he was doing pub readings with the late Tom Buchan. For comment on the MSM news, this might never be bettered:

    Six O’Clock News

    this is thi

    six a clock

    news thi

    man said n

    thi reason

    a talk wia

    BBC accent

    iz coz yi

    widny wahnt

    mi ti talk

    aboot thi

    trooth wia

    voice lik

    wanna yoo

    scruff. if

    a toktaboot

    thi trooth

    lik wanna yoo

    scruff yi

    widny thingk

    it wuz troo.

    jist wanna yoo

    scruff tokn.

    thirza right

    way ti spell

    ana right way

    to tok it. this

    is me tokn yir

    right way a

    spellin. this

    is ma trooth.

    yooz doant no

    thi trooth

    yirsellz cawz

    yi canny talk

    right. this is

    the six a clock

    nyooz. belt up.

    http://www.word-power.co.uk/books/outside-the-narrative-I9781901538687/

  393. Vronsky

    15 Nov, 2010 - 11:00 am

    “with the late Tom Buchan”

    Of course, he wasn’t ‘late’ then…

  394. Vronsky

    15 Nov, 2010 - 11:04 am

    I’ve just remembered; Tom asked me for a definition of poetry. With ‘Six o’clock news’ in mind, I suggested that it was ‘a piece of writing where the length of the line is determined by some consideration other than the width of the page’. I still think that’s not bad. Tom claimed e e cummings as an influence, which is believable.

  395. angrysoba

    15 Nov, 2010 - 11:04 am

    I’ll read this site when I have more time but I must admit that any website that calls itself, “Mask Of Zion” is immediately suspicious to me.

    Now Saddam Hussein may have been the best thing for inter-confessional harmony, but he did rule through fear so it is unreasonable to simply assume the occupation of Iraq was an attempt to destroy inter-confessional communities.

    Suhayl has mentioned William Dalrymple before and I have, for a while, been interested in tracking down his book on Christian communities called, iirc, From the Sacred Mountain.

    I have debated before with Muslim friends of mine whether or not Christians are persecuted in Palestine and a good friend of mine considers such a charge to be a lie. I don’t know about that.

    Further, I do absolutely know that some radical Salafist/Wahabists have an enormous prejudice towards those who they consider heretics and many Shias do against their so-called heretics.

    It is not a big stretch of the imagination for me to believe that in the chaos that the US and UK occupation of Iraq wrought that there would be inter-confessional murder. For me, that would be the default position to consider. For many “anti-Zionists” the default position is that anything from a bombing, to a hurricane, to an earthquake is the fault of the “Zionists”. For a website that calls itself, “Mask of Zion” this would be even more so, I would imagine.

    “Prior to the fascist, destructive, genocidal US-UK-Israeli occupation of Iraq, Sunni and Shia, Muslims and Christians, Arabs and Kurds lived together in a harmonious atmosphere of brotherhood and unity that paralleled that of occupied Palestine before the Zionist occupation in 1948. It is egregious. Disgusting. Despicable. Ignorant. Absurd. And erroneous on every factual basis to assert that the aforementioned ethnic and religious groups are now massacring each other, when in reality, they are being massacred by the murderous occupation armies.”

    This is the only part of the article I have read so far. The hyperbole suggests there isn’t much in the way of cool analysis to follow.

    I won’t bother telling you what I think of the rest unless asked.

  396. angrysoba

    15 Nov, 2010 - 12:31 pm

    Here’s an analogous situation:

    When Yugoslavia fell apart people of all different ethnic groups and confessions went about butchering each other as soon as they could and the principle victims were Muslims.

    The “West” was only responsible for the massive loss of life among Muslims in the sense that they didn’t INTERVENE quicker and stop Muslims from being murdered.

    (When we look at Rwanda, Congo and Darfur and very soon Southern Sudan, what do people say about the West? That they don’t give a shit about Africans.)

    Has anyone here read “Bridge on the Drina”? It’s about the faultlines that have always existed in a small Bosnian town called Visegrad. The writer, Ivo Andric, has sometimes been referred to as some kind of Islamophobe or perhaps even an anti-semite, but this book of his is a really wonderful piece of literature that takes pride in the town’s multi-ethnic nature. The only “bad Muslims” I remember are those of the Ottoman Empire who steal a child from Visegrad who nonetheless grows up to become the grand vizier of the Sultan and in honour of his hometown orders the construction of the eponymous bridge.

  397. Vronsky

    15 Nov, 2010 - 1:58 pm

    Huh?

    See those notes they give you, angry – you have to take a little longer to organise them – OK?

  398. somebody

    15 Nov, 2010 - 2:31 pm

    All those voxpop comments we have been hearing, in the wave after wave of propaganda based on the red poppy, that our boys are ‘doing their duty’ and ‘making things better’ is put into question in this BBC report on the dangers of driving a bus especially about the antics of the international forces.

    From medialens

    BBC – Brave Afghan bus drivers’ gauntlet of terror

    Posted by Chris Shaw on November 15, 2010, 12:26 pm

    They are brave though aren’t they? I mean keeping buses on the road shows the occupation is working. So they must be brave, after all they are (albeit indirectly) servbing the interests of Western elites.

    Just look at the dangers they face, these brave drivers.

    ‘Bombs, kidnappings, drive-by shootings, corrupt officials and road-hogging coalition convoys, not to mention hairpin mountain bends and brutal weather – it’s all just another day’s work for Afghan bus drivers, the BBC’s Bilal Sarwary learns’

    phew, as long as the West isn’t responsible for any of the dangers they face. We truly are the good guys, and there is none finer in the land than the BBC

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11606430

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  400. somebody

    15 Nov, 2010 - 4:00 pm

    Can you hear the sound of the dominoes falling down?

    (Skye New) The Portugese finance minister is saying that the country is at high risk of needing a bailout. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could all have a personal bailout. Meanwhile Osborne is trying to get the bankers to reduce the bonus payments from £7 billion to £4 billion.

  401. somebody

    15 Nov, 2010 - 4:23 pm

    This is a bit weird isn’t it. July and it’s now half way through November. Does Rifkind sit by himself in an empty room?

    6 July 2010 The Prime Minister has today announced the appointment of the Rt. Hon. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, MP as Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee. The remaining eight Members of the Committee will be appointed in due course.

    Posted 16 Jul 2010 05:44 by ISC Admin

    http://isc.independent.gov.uk/

  402. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 4:31 pm

    Vronsky, yes, the six o’clock news is a great poem. Esp, when spoken by the man himself, of course!

    I’ve read ‘From the Scared Mountain’ Wm Dalrymple), it’s a superb book. IN fact, I read as part of my research for the novel, ‘Joseph’s Box’.

    I’ve also read a book by Ariel Sabar, entitled, “My Father’s Paradise: A Son’s Search For His Jewish Past In Kurdish Iraq” (Algonquin Books), winner of the 2008 National Book Critics Circle Award for autobiography. I went to a reading in Washington DC – and was blown away by what he said becasue it went against the propaganda grain. Here is s quote from http://www.jewishtimes.com

    “Q: What do you see as disheartening today between Jews and Muslims?”

    A: “People look at Iraq and read the headlines. There is this assumption that this was always the way, that they hated each other all the time. The story of the Kurdish Jews and the Jews in Iraq was that when the Israelites were exiled, they formed a pretty good pluralistic society. There were problems, but nothing of the scale of what was seen in Europe.”

    Most of the problems b/w Eastern Christians and Muslims have arisen because of the machinations of Western imperialism – and this includes the deliberate building-up of the ‘Saudi’ version of Islam and the consequences thereof. Dalrymple also bemoans all of this in his book.

  403. Courtenay Barnett

    15 Nov, 2010 - 4:33 pm

    @ anon,

    “Courtenay

    I was picking up on Craig’s comment that the political class is non-ideological, merely seeking to secure their own careers. And I wondered whether those in the deep state whom you list were different from normal types of political animals. Are they purposeful and united?

    Has this skid-to-halt emergency stop of the world economy altered the force of gravity or swapped the magnetic poles?

    The human chain that delivers mobiles or food on the shelves of our supermarkets etc is bigger and more organised than them. I always thought under the last dose of Tory rule that normality continued in spite of government and not because of them.”

    Reply: One can make a broad comparison with the US and note as follows:-

    The US two party system is a “corptocracy”. The corporations pay and the politicians pay back. Obama is an interesting case study. He is an accomplished orator and a highly persuasive politician. He actually convinced a significant number of persons within and outside the US that change was coming, once he was elected. He did build up euphoria.

    Remember a guy called, Tony Blair. Far more sensible than his US counterpart at the time, GWB ( but so too was a significant number of human beings on planet earth). Not to detract from Blair and his UK political pitch. He too was coming with change with the third path.

    Back to the US. “The mendacity of hope” is a book just published on the Obama years. One can discern a few things from the US:-

    i) The labour movement there does not have the clout it used to ?” so the shortage of finance means the decline of influence on the Democratic party.

    ii) What then do the Democrats to? They get corporate sponsorship, just as the Republicans used to and then once elected it becomes pay back time.The lines between the two parties do not operarte as a genuine right/left divide.

    Consider George Soros’ “Move on .org” funding as truly corporate stuff. Obama has paid back for the money received. Look at how he has addressed the financial crisis and think then that he did it just to remain within the camp, serving the purposes for which his campaign was funded.

    That is the reality we are facing.

    Back to the UK.

    The funder of the Conservatives is a guy called Lord Ashcroft.

    He and the Conservative hierarchy seem to be on bad terms now. Maybe for public consumption ?” maybe genuinely so, now that the Conservatives are elected. My point here is that someone is funding the political process and there are paybacks which come with the arrangement.

    There were times in the past when genuine right/left issues represented heartfelt and actual divides. Looking at politics these days I am not convinced that such divisions exist in any depth across the board. At political core what is actually operative is corporatism. It is more business school, political spin, smart taking Tony Blair types and the like ?” right and left. Maintain the system as it is; cut social services more than military budgets; repay the financial thieves who brought economic wreck, hardship and ruin; screw the students and the poor. Viewed in this way ?” much of a much ?” both sides of the Atlantic when it comes to the fundamentals of political and economic life.

    So all of that to say this:-

    “The human chain that delivers mobiles or food on the shelves of our supermarkets etc is bigger and more organised than them.”

    And here correctly you state a political process that would have to do a number of things:-

    i) Organise a movement nationally

    ii) Finance the movement to put a national credible challenge to the established two parties.

    iii) Take state power.

    Short of that all I see in the political arena is “Blair today ?” Hague tomorrow” and the cycle with different faces working the same machine will continue until either it implodes or i) and ii) and iii) above come into play as a credible alternative.

    At least ?” that’s how I see it.

  404. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 4:39 pm

    Here’s a link to that interview:

    http://www.kurdistannetwork.com/kurdotv/news.php?do=shownews&id=75

    It is clear that there has been recent pressure on/ oppression of some Christian communities living in majority Muslim countries. This is shameful. One remembers the Young Turks’ genocide of the Armenians and the continuing official denial in Turkey of that horrific event.

    That people doing the oppressing must take responsibility for it, as indeed they must, does not preclude analysing the (especially recent) role of the West in shaping such dynamics, either deliberately or as an indirect result of applied policies.

  405. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 4:41 pm

    Sorry, a typo of mine: the title of Dalrymple’s book is of course ‘From the Sacred Mountain’, not ‘From the Scared Mountain’ – Freudian slip?

  406. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 4:52 pm

    ‘From the Holy Mountain’, even!

  407. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 5:24 pm

    It’s also clear that the West (specifically, the USA, UK and Germany) for many years actively worked for the break-up of Yugoslavia. Milosevic, of course, was partly a product of that process, as was Izetbegivic et al and were the nearly Fascist Tudgeman and. So yet again, we see a problem partly caused by the West necessitating intervention by Western armies and a prolonged occupation. The West did not intervene in the former Yugoslavia because they (meaning the elites) cared about anyone, they intervened because partition by then had been accomplished and they wanted to codify and formalise partition.

    I am not into blaming ‘the West’ for all the ills of the world – that’s a simplistic cop-out, in my view. There are many levels to all this.

    As I’ve said many times, in terms of inter-communal violence, whether we’re talking South Asia, the Middle East, Africa or the Balkans, in the end, at the most basic level, it comes down to neighbour pulling the machete off the wall and killing neighbour. But the strategic framework which sets the stage for and facilitates the manifestation of such inter-communal bloodshed – that which harnesses the very worst aspects of humanity – is often built very deliberately through imperial policy.

  408. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 5:26 pm

    Izetbegovic, Tudman are the correct spellings – rushing again!

  409. Courtenay Barnett

    15 Nov, 2010 - 5:33 pm

    @ Suhayl,

    “As I’ve said many times, in terms of inter-communal violence, whether we’re talking South Asia, the Middle East, Africa or the Balkans, in the end, at the most basic level, it comes down to neighbour pulling the machete off the wall and killing neighbour. But the strategic framework which sets the stage for and facilitates the manifestation of such inter-communal bloodshed – that which harnesses the very worst aspects of humanity – is often built very deliberately through imperial policy.”

    Well said. I agree. Think also that when there are war criminals like Henry Kissinger, Blair and Bush on the loose, but it is only the likes of Charles Taylor and Milosovic who are pursued by international criminal tribunals, then we can safely conclude that the West has its own insulation against its crimes and corruption.

  410. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    15 Nov, 2010 - 5:58 pm

    Courtenay,

    I agree with your points and I think we can bring some ‘hope’ by a revival of the ‘People’s Charter’ with the distinct difference that such a Charter would be woven with consistent policy.

    The points of the Charter could be formulated here and would constitute a new political system. Each point would then be expanded to a logical conclusion and presented at a convention where each point is legally sanctioned.

    A Charter association is formed to discuss the launch and public awareness of the Charter. This would be followed by a number of rallies across Britain as a prelude to a petition which would attempt to gather millions of signatures intended to force a debate in Parliament.

    The debate in Parliament of course is just to garner more publicity, we would not be proposing changes to the existing system we would indeed go much further than change (a dead word) and establish new.

    The trick then is to ready for State power by transforming the Charter Association into a political force with guaranteed public backing and funding.

    Points for a new political system are needed (an interesting exercise) and I leave that to others more qualified.

  411. Lucretius

    15 Nov, 2010 - 7:32 pm

    Penetrating comment on John Sawyers’ recent public statement by Prof. John Kozy here.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26817.htm

    “Recently, Sir John Sawers, the head of Britain’s Secret Intelligence Service, MI6, devoted much of a 30-minute address to the central role of secrecy in maintaining security. “Secrecy”, he said, “is not a dirty word. Secrecy is not there as a cover-up. Secrecy plays a crucial part in keeping Britain safe and secure. If our operations and methods become public, they won’t work.”

    “Alas, Sir John is obviously not a master of the King’s English. Secrecy is by definition a cover-up. But Sir John doesn’t mean cover-up in the simple sense of hidden; he wants to claim that nothing unseemly or objectionable is being covered up. Unfortunately, that claim is impossible to verify and, if accepted, must be accepted on trust. If someone claims s/he did nothing wrong, the what and how of it must be revealed. How else could it be shown? Yet Sir John claims that the what and how of it must be kept secret.

    “Consider the claim that the universe contains absolutely undetectable attributes. The sentence appears to make perfectly good sense, but it doesn’t. How could the claim ever be given a truth value? All one can really do upon hearing or reading it is shrug one’s shoulders. The sentence has no content. The claim that secrets are not cover-ups is similar. To know that what is secret is not a cover-up, the secret must be revealed, but by definition alone, a secret cannot be revealed and be a secret. Such claims are entirely meaningless.

    “So why should anyone trust the pronouncements of governments and their agents anyhow? That they lie has been demonstrated over and over again in history. In reality, all that the secrecy actually does is arouse suspicion; secrecy leads people to distrust their governments. It also leads nations to distrust each other, and a world in which nations distrust each other is unstable, dangerous, and primed for disaster.

    “Governmental secrecy also annuls any trappings of democracy that a nation may exhibit. Even a perfectly rational citizenry would be unable to make rational judgments on matters of policy that are kept from it by secrecy. How can anyone be expected to make a rational judgment about something s/he is unaware of? Rational thinking requires premises that are factual. Without that knowledge, the electoral process is a mere formal, meaningless exercise. The people may be told that they are sovereign, but they do not even play a meaningful role in the process. The trappings of democracy do not make a nation democratic. Only transparently revealed truth and honesty do. …

  412. Sean

    15 Nov, 2010 - 7:37 pm

    “It’s also clear that the West (specifically, the USA, UK and Germany) for many years actively worked for the break-up of Yugoslavia. Milosevic, of course, was partly a product of that process, as was Izetbegivic et al and were the nearly Fascist Tudgeman and. So yet again, we see a problem partly caused by the West necessitating intervention by Western armies and a prolonged occupation. The West did not intervene in the former Yugoslavia because they (meaning the elites) cared about anyone, they intervened because partition by then had been accomplished and they wanted to codify and formalise partition.”

    I think that’s a fairly broad set of brush-strokes there, is it not?

    The partition spoken of was well codified by individual ethnic and national ideologies long, long before western state intervention in those territories, and was arguably brought on to the horizon of eventual formalisation by successive wars (formalisation of boundaries being the only definite conclusion of intra-state war).

    I don’t think you can claim the kind of imperial intervention as it’s normally defined (as per above) for alot of the earlier decisive points in the Yugoslavian situation; the complexity of having five different states gripped in various stages of social, political and economic flux renders that idea a bit over-simplistic, surely?

    I know it’s often theorised by credible people, and alot of the background of western intervention in the balkans is correctly perceived – but I’m afraid I can’t get to the same conclusions from those beginnings.

  413. anno

    15 Nov, 2010 - 9:15 pm

    Eid Mubarak all!

  414. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 9:18 pm

    Sean, I did not say that that was the ONLY factor. Imperial intervention does not begin and end with the parachuting-in of troops. There are also many types of imperial intervention. But in my view, in the case of Yugoslavia, was a decisive one.

  415. Suhayl Saadi

    15 Nov, 2010 - 9:21 pm

    Sorry, in the final sentence, I meant to say: “it was a decisive one”. As I said, though, (I agree) these matters are complex.

  416. angrysoba

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:16 am

    “Can you hear the sound of the dominoes falling down?”

    I’ll bet anyone on here one million pounds that the world will not end within the next five years. In fact, I’ll be generous. Not within the next ten years!

  417. angrysoba

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:19 am

    Suhayl,

    “‘From the Holy Mountain’, even!”

    Thanks, the confusion was my fault. I haven’t read it, as I said but I’m interested in doing so.

  418. angrysoba

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:34 am

    “As I’ve said many times, in terms of inter-communal violence, whether we’re talking South Asia, the Middle East, Africa or the Balkans, in the end, at the most basic level, it comes down to neighbour pulling the machete off the wall and killing neighbour. But the strategic framework which sets the stage for and facilitates the manifestation of such inter-communal bloodshed – that which harnesses the very worst aspects of humanity – is often built very deliberately through imperial policy.”

    I agree with the first part, but my original comments were in part a response to the idea that the “Zionists” are going round blowing things up in Iraq. It seems that the conspiracy theorists read articles with a similar anylsis to yours about how imperial policy is designed to set neighbours at the throats of their neightbours except they cut out the middle man and assume it is always the “Zionists” themselves who take the machete off the wall.

  419. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:52 am

    7/7 – A cacophony of Lies

    Disturbing facts from apparently but not fully authenticated forensic scientist.

    “We do, of course, have a piece of evidence at our disposal that was not presented at today’s (Monday) session and almost certainly will not appear at all ?” unless someone realises its value. I am referring to the photograph of the Edgware Road train, which was leaked to ABC News and subsequently found its way into the British media for one day only. It can be found on the July 7 site, almost at the end of:

    http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/7-7-edgware-road-paddington.html

    For comparison purposes, a picture of an undamaged Refurbished C Stock carriage can be found here in Figure 2:

    http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/C%20Stock%20refurb%20photos.htm#Fig%202

    Search for Exhibit INQ10282-8.pdf for the plan view graphic of the carriage where the explosion took place, and look at Exhibit INQ10282-9.pdf, which shows the position of some of the deceased after the explosion. Look at the point marked X where the explosion is said to have occurred.

    The damage photograph appears to have been taken through double door D3, looking towards double door D4. Passing vertically through the ‘U’ of the word EXCLUSIVE is the edge of the right hand side of the door aperture for D4. That can be confirmed by comparing the floor pattern with that in the photo of the undamaged carriage. Note that the pattern is across the carriage between door sets and along the carriage between the seats. We can now see where Danny Biddle said he was standing when the explosion occurred.

    DB said, in his inquest testimony, that he saw the young Asian man reach to the small rucksack on his lap, at which point the explosion occurred. The man was sitting in Seat 28, making it impossible for the detonation point to be where the X has been placed on the floor plans. INQ10282-9.pdf shows that Kahn is alleged to have ended up in the door area, on the other side of Point X. That is going to take some explaining, no doubt with some pretty fancy physics.

    There is a wealth of information in the photograph that shows that the explosion did not occur at Point X, but just forward of the wheels on the trailing end of the front bogie ?” the train was moving to the right. You can see a wheel through the hole in the floor, and the axle joining it to its companion on the opposite side of the bogie. Passing in front of the wheel in the picture, and over the axle appears to be one of the main floor bearers that runs along the length of the carriage. It is bent upwards and metal has been torn away from the top. It is clearly bent upwards, as can be verified by holding a straight edge (paper or ruler) along the bottom edge of the main floor support.

    Continued

    November 9, 2010 12:20 AM

    Anonymous said…

    Protruding through the damaged floor, at the point where the right hand side of the D3 aperture meets the floor, is a large piece of what looks suspiciously like ‘U’ channel, which has a torn end facing the tunnel wall. Taking the position of the photographer into account, there is no doubt that the bent-horizontal part of the channel is above floor level. Moving back to where the channel begins to bend downwards, there is a piece of torn metal pointing vertically upwards, looking as though it has been peeled back from the severed end of the channel.

    In the right foreground can be seen the seat framing on the non-tunnel-wall side of the train. The seat framing on the damaged side is not where it should be but seems to have been moved to the right. It has also rotated upward, as can be seen from the piece of flooring still attached to the bottom of the frame. That flat piece of metal, visible a foot or so above normal floor level, is, in fact, a view of the underside of part of the floor. Note that the left hand end of that piece of metal is torn and bent upwards.

    I think I’ll stop there, although there is more that could be said – and even more if the photo had been of higher resolution. What we are seeing are the results of an underfloor explosion, not the result of an explosion occurring inside the carriage, even if the device had been on the floor. The high forces necessary to form metal, in the way that can be seen, have to be very close, almost in contact – not sourced from a small bag balanced a couple of feet above the floor on someone’s lap.

    Think about it: the explosion was inferred by Danny Biddle to have been originated by the young man sitting in Seat 28, not more that three feet away from where he was standing. The explosion was powerful enough to cause a large part of the floor to be removed and shred his lower legs; yet, his upper body did not sustain similar damage, even though his only protection had been the Perspex draft screen adjacent to Seat 27. The explosion cannot have taken place on the lap of the young Asian man. If it had, Danny Biddle would not have been present at the Inquest and many more people would have died. The young Asian man, if he was there, seems to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    It would seem that the Edgware Road photograph, leaked to ABC, is sufficient to cast doubt on the entire direction of the Inquest.

    November 9, 2010 12:22 AM

    Anonymous said…

    Have all the train carriages involved in the bombings been destroyed?

    November 9, 2010 1:22 AM

    Bridget said…

    ^ Yes according to the response from TfL to this FOI request they were all scrapped:

    FOI request TFL

    November 9, 2010 1:46 AM

    Anonymous said…

    A question I already knew the answer to I suppose. Ok, the response to your FOI request was 2 years after the event. Did you ever find out exactly when they were scrapped and on whose authority? I would be very interested to know how rushed it was and who gave the order, but for a bird that has already flown you might consider this a waste of time.

    November 9, 2010 2:03 AM

    Bridget said…

    ^^^ As for the bomb damage what do you think caused the explosions? Could it be electrical?

    Further evidence may be adduced when these issues are examined:

    Forensic issues regarding the bombs and the bodies of MSK, Tanweer, Hussain and Lindsay

    7. The likely components, manner of construction and mode of operation of the explosive devices.

    8. The likely involvement of MSK, Tanweer, Hussain and Lindsay in the development and assembly of the explosive devices.

    9. The presence at the scenes of MSK, Tanweer, Hussain and Lindsay, and their proximity to the explosions.

    November 9, 2010 2:17 AM

    Anonymous said…

    Relatives of Tube bomber want another post mortem

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1501741/Relatives-of-Tube-bomber-want-another-post-mortem.html

    Rumours have it that Tanweers body was pretty much intact when returned to family.

    November 9, 2010 3:49 PM

    Anonymous said…

    In my view, it is extremely peculiar that Shehzad Tanweer’s head was apparently not found. Heads tend to survive blasts relatively intact, as do hands and feet.

    Other things being equal, the blast energy required to strip a torso to a 3ft chunk of spine, greatly exceeds the energy necessary to separate the head from the neck, and turn it into a ballistic missile.

    As with the other inconsistent / controversial evidence regarding the 4 blast sites, a full (or perhaps even partial) release of the SOCO photographic record would prove the story one way or the other.”

    November 12, 2010 12:25 AM

  420. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:55 am

  421. Lucretius

    16 Nov, 2010 - 1:07 am

    “I’ll bet anyone on here one million pounds that the world will not end within the next five years.”

    And if the world does end within five years, no one will collect by winning that bet.

    Looks like a variant of heads I win, tails you lose.

  422. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    16 Nov, 2010 - 1:25 am

    The photograph of the Edgware Road train, which was leaked to ABC News can also been found here:

    http://77inquests.blogspot.com/2010/11/77-inquests-danny-biddle-rucksack-on.html

    This photographic evidence of the blast is crucial to the theory that explosives (military grade) were placed UNDER the carriage involved in the Edgware Road incident.

    I am searching for the source of this jpeg in the hope that a high definition original can be found for more detailed analysis.

  423. anno

    16 Nov, 2010 - 3:12 am

    angrysoba

    ‘It seems that’ * the entire Muslim population of the world understand from their own recorded history * ‘how imperial policy is designed to set neighbours at the throats of their neighbours’. * and * ‘they cut out the middle man and assume that it is the ‘Zionists’ themselves who take the machete off the wall.’

    This is the realisation that kept Tony Blair awake at night. That people understand this mischievous collaboration of Western imperialism and Zionist Islamophobia through their own witnessed history and therefore understand what is going on at the present time.

    This understanding could only be countered by the most comprehensive propaganda and false flag operation counter-activity. The West simply cannot survive in a competitive world unless the propaganda war is won.

    The emperor has no clothes. Like the Soviet Union before it, the West is about to be completely unravelled. And the day of judgement may come soon, as well. I hope you’ve got a small corner of real estate in China to retire to, and sufficient, not-so-foolish-virgin oil for the big day!

  424. CheebaCow

    16 Nov, 2010 - 4:22 am

    Mark:

    I did a search for a higher res version of the image you linked to, unfortunately it looks like 510px

  425. Suhayl Saadi

    16 Nov, 2010 - 7:36 am

    angrysoba, Courtenay, thanks.

    anno, Khair Mubarak!

  426. Vronsky

    16 Nov, 2010 - 8:48 am

    “Based on my 0 experience with explosives the pic seems more consistent with an explosion from above rather than below.”

    I agree – the floor has clearly been forced down, and I can’t see that any experience of explosives would make it look different.

    I was puzzled by the comments on the J7 site claiming that the opposite is true and for a while I stared at the image, thinking it might be a trompe l’oeil like the wire-frame cube that can be perceived in different orientations, but that floor is definitely pushed down. Follow the line of junction between the wall of the coach and the floor from mid-left of the picture towards the centre and you can see the floor progressively displaced downward until it eventually detaches from the wall.

    BTW Mark – 70 days and counting.

  427. ingo

    16 Nov, 2010 - 10:08 am

    what a coincidence that Syhayl should bring up this:

    It is clear that there has been recent pressure on/ oppression of some Christian communities living in majority Muslim countries. This is shameful. One remembers the Young Turks’ genocide of the Armenians and the continuing official denial in Turkey of that horrific event.

    In preparation for the ConDem Government call to include Turkey into the EU, I’m currently reading a book about the Turkish mafia. In it the history of an, at first called, ‘illegal committee’ was founded in 1792 by Sultan Selim, a poet who is remembered for his progressiveness when it comes to establishing the ministries of today in Turkey.

    That was the beginning of a secret service in Turkey, it included all sorts of professions, writers, butchers, a network that had ears and eyes. It evolved into the Teskilat-i- Mahsusa, a body that included major criminals, smugglers and other’honourable men’who helped Turkey with its protection of its sultans, but also carried out its clandestine, dirty work. Under Enver Pasha, beginning of the 20th century, this body was attached to the war ministry and here I quote verbatim form the book,

    “The Teskilat-i Mahsusa played a role in the genocide of the Armenians in 1915 and 1916 and in other aggressions against religious minorities in the precedign years. Such a large organisation requirewd external financial support and that was provided by Germany. The special unit was set up for the Ministry of war partly with a secret budget of German money and gold.”

    By the looks fo that quote the funding was received after the genocide.

    pg.218, ‘the Turkish Mafia, a history of the heroin godfathers’by Frank Bovenkerk (Prof. in criminology) and Yuecel Yesiligoez.

    The guist of the book make it clear that the Turkish state and its criminal underworld are in an extraordinary symbiotic relationship that has travelled through time and metamorphed into the most powerfull drug production/smuggling regime in the world.

    Turkey’s assession is not necessarry its goods are already traded all over Europe, legal or illegal, both PKK and the Grey wolfs are well established throughout Europe and both are up to their eyeballs into arms drugs and human trafficking.

    Something to be considered before they are joining a crippled EU, just thought to flag it up.

    Thanks for all thge 7/7 stuff Mark and somebody, wish I had all that time, my computer runs on steam…

  428. Freeborn

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:13 pm

    Central to the disconnect between the US government and its restive population is the financial and moral cost of the alliance with Israel.

    Here in the UK people still don’t get it. The extent of Zionist influence within the British ruling class which goes back centuries is little understood.

    In fact for the Zionist-owned corporate media empire and its gatekeeper cyphers here it’s not even an issue.

    Just how the British can be so arrogant re-how “stupid” their American cousins are is belied by blogs like vetstoday:

    http://veteranstoday.com/2010/11/12/is-american-public-about-to-toss-Israel/

    To take just one example check out just how many Zionist groups Churchill was linked with as he simultaneously embarked on his public campaign to make war with Germany seem a necessity:

    Untermeyer’s NY-based Anti-Nazi Council which morphed into the Focus Group in Britain helped ensure Churchill’s financial and political survival. It was Untermeyer who instigated the trade boycott and declaration of war on Germany in 1933.

    The Focus were financed by the Board of Deputies of British Jews and rubbed shoulders with barons of munitions industries and chemical combines. Vice President of the BDBJ was Sir Robert Waley-Cohen,Zionist chairman of Shell. The JDF also bank-rolled Focus to the tune of £50,000.

    By 1938 Hitler had secured a $17m oil barter deal with Mexico that totally bi-passed Shell and Rockefeller’s Standard oil interests. Whereas Hitler had already forged similar barter deals in Turkey and the Balkans that had put the City’s nose out of joint the extension of his barter deal schemes to S.America was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    Naturally at this point significant sections of the British elite began to gravitate towards Herr Churchill and Gentile Zionist fellow-travellers like like the Mond brothers,and politicians like Lloyd George,Lord Cecil,Wickam Steed,Leo Amery,Bob Boothby,Hugh Dalton,Austen Chamberlain and Harold Nicolson all got aboard HMS Untermeyer!

    Winnie’s son,Randolph,was in touch with his Dad’s great pal,Bernie Baruch in NY re-amalgamating Focus and the AJC. In 1937 when the US public was still overwhelmingly isolationist. It was the AJC that chose to distance itself from Churchill for fear “anti-semites” would label the AJC war-mongers of the Churchill ilk. Wickam Steed went to see the AJC in his stead.

    According to Waley-Cohen biographer,Robert Henriques,Focus was actually set up to buy Churchill’s oratory and writing skills and redirect them away from India towards the Waley-Cohen financier group’s main enemy,Hitler’ Germany.

    Clandestine Zionist Big Oil and finance ops like Focus are still hard at work today.

    PC patrollers for Craig Murray will see to it that these comments are removed.

    After all “antisemitic” and “Holocaust denier” sentiments are verboten on gatekeeper sites.

  429. Apostate

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:34 pm

    Shall I wait till he’s censored you out or shall we go into a little more detail on Churchill’s Zionist backers?

    You guessed it:

    http://www.savethemales.ca/001766.html

    These guys are at the same level of cultural awareness as the beasts in the field. They think the Illuminati only come out at Diwali or Xmas!

    LMAO

  430. Steelback

    16 Nov, 2010 - 12:43 pm

    More on who controlled Churchill:

    http://www.phumph.com/hiddenhands(a).html

  431. Larry from St. Louis

    16 Nov, 2010 - 1:43 pm

    Heh Mark Golding – how do you react to the fact that Craig Murray thinks you’re a “conspiraloon” for believing that 7/7 and 911 were inside jobs?

    And how much money have you pocketed running your fake charity?

  432. Larry from St. Louis

    16 Nov, 2010 - 1:45 pm

    Craig Murray didn’t merely indicate his disagreement with you people – he called you conspiraloons!

  433. Tony

    16 Nov, 2010 - 2:10 pm

    “The political and economic system has come to serve the interests of a tiny elite,”

    Of course you are right Craig, but how about some names?

    Isn’t it time we started naming these faceless people?

    As long as they can hide through anonymity will we ever shake them off?

  434. Anonymous

    16 Nov, 2010 - 2:38 pm

    where is the gatekeeper Craig anyhow ?, the loon from st louis seems to be unhampered even though he’s supposed to be banned!

  435. Anonymous

    16 Nov, 2010 - 3:12 pm

    The Loon from st Louis is hampered as ever by his own lack of wit, (deliberately?) failing to notice for nearly a year now that by opposing the ‘conspiraloons’, he is placing himself within the ‘truthers’. The original quote:

    “sorry folks I just deleted the whole “truthers v conspiraloons” comment spat because I want to keep this one somewhere near its important topic”.

    Posted by: Craig at January 19, 2010 7:53 PM

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/cadburys_demise.html

  436. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    16 Nov, 2010 - 3:12 pm

    Thanks Vronsky – check and balance makes for thoroughness in any investigation. Great idea to construct a wire-frame model knowing the perspectives and camera angle/position – Autocad?. Time flies ;)

    Thanks for looking CheebaCow – solid as ever – let me investigate further before I give you my thoughts.

    I congratulate Prince William on his secret engagement. The announcement was in indeed timed perfectly…

  437. Vronsky

    16 Nov, 2010 - 3:37 pm

    “camera angle/position – Autocad?”

    Funnily enough, I was in AutoCAD technical support for a while. It had crossed my mind that you can get that trick of flipping things upside down by moving a light source in a 3D model. Looking at any image, we unconsciously assume a direction of light source and so can be tricked.

    “I congratulate Prince William on his secret engagement.”

    Up here, we think the wedding will be timed to coincide with the elections to Holyrood. Sigh. The trouble with being a gloomy Scot is that we’re always fucking right.

  438. somebody

    16 Nov, 2010 - 4:34 pm

    Clever buggers, Clarke and Grieve. On the grounds that the legal cases were grinding on and likely to cost many tens of millions, the ConDems have paid over several millions to those who made charges of being tortured. Moazzam Begg’s case and those of the other detainees have been nicely fielded into the long grass and secrecy about what went on is assured.

    Compensation has been paid with no admission of liability etc etc. Complete confidentiality is being given. The Gibson inquiry will follow as soon as the police proceedings are closed.

    :::

    16 November 2010

    Government to compensate ex-Guantanamo Bay detainees

    UK resident Binyam Mohamed had sought compensation following his release

    UK TORTURE CLAIMSCameron announces torture inquiry

    ‘Publish terror guidelines’ call

    MI6 ‘is not complicit’ in torture

    Ministers deny torture collusion

    Around a dozen men who accused British security forces of colluding in their transfer overseas are to get millions in compensation from the UK government.

    Some of the men, who are all British citizens or residents, were detained at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba.

    At least six of them alleged UK forces were complicit in their torture before they arrived at Guantanamo.

    The Commons will debate the payout when Justice Secretary Ken Clarke makes a statement later on Tuesday.

    The coalition government made clear in the summer that it wanted to avoid a massive court case which would also have put the British secret intelligence services under the spotlight. Prime Minister David Cameron offered to enter settlement talks with six men seeking damages, an offer that has now been accepted.

    Bisher al-Rawi, Jamil el Banna, Richard Belmar, Omar Deghayes, Binyam Mohamed and Martin Mubanga had led a High Court case against five government departments including MI5 and MI6.

    They had claimed that officials in London were complicit in their transfer to Guantanamo Bay and should have prevented it and their ill-treatment.

    In May, the Court of Appeal ruled that the government could not rely on secret evidence to defend itself against the six cases, saying allegations of wrongdoing had to be heard in public.

    (Analysis – Dominic Casciani

    BBC News home affairs correspondent

    The government has resisted this legal claim tooth and nail. The court hearings became an exhausting battle of legal wits, as massed benches of government lawyers refused to give ground.

    So why settle, given critics will inevitably accuse ministers of a cover-up? The decision should come as no surprise.

    The Court of Appeal rejected ministers’ pleas to hear secret evidence in closed courts and the drip-drip of secret material from MI5 and MI6 vaults could have become a flood.

    Settling the case therefore achieves the government’s greater aim.

    It triggers the launch of a judge-led inquiry into complicity and rendition. That inquiry will now go about its business but the main accusers won’t be appearing in public demanding the exposure of a secret paper trail from Afghanistan to government offices in London.

    Paying out millions looks bad, but ministers know that exposing state secrets is worse still. Since then, more than 60 government lawyers and officials have been sifting through some 500,000 documents at a secret location. The case was estimated to cost millions and could have lasted for at least another three years.

    The BBC understands that both the Intelligence and Security Committee and the National Audit Office will be briefed in detail about the nature of the payments. But the settlement also paves the way for the government to launch an inquiry headed by former judge Sir Peter Gibson into the claims made against the intelligence and security agencies.

    Binyam Mohamed’s solicitor, Sapna Malik, said: “I can’t confirm any details about the settlement package. All I can say is that the claims have been settled and the terms are confidential.

    “Our client was horrendously treated over a period of almost seven years, with a significant degree of collusion from the security services in the UK.”

    The UK security services have always denied any claims that they have used or condoned the use of torture.

    Last month, the head of MI6, Sir John Sawers, described torture as “illegal and abhorrent” and defended the service’s need for secrecy.

    Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said of the payments: “It’s not very palatable but there is a price to be paid for lawlessness and torture in freedom’s name. There are torture victims who were entitled to expect protection from their country.

    Binyam Mohamed’s solicitor, Sapna Malik said her client deserved compensation for what he had endured

    “The government now accepts that torture is never justified and we were all let down – let’s learn all the lessons and move on.”

    Mr Mohamed, from west London, was held in Pakistan in 2002 before US agencies moved him to Morocco, where he was tortured, before he was sent on to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, via Afghanistan.

    During court hearings, it emerged that a British intelligence officer visited him in detention in Pakistan and that his interrogators in Morroco asked him questions supplied by MI5. Around a dozen men who accused British security forces of colluding in their rendition overseas are to get millions in compensation from the UK government.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11762636

  439. Clark

    16 Nov, 2010 - 4:45 pm

    Well, I was thinking of taking up torture as a hobby, but it looks too expensive for the likes of me. Still, a lottery jackpot might put it within my reach.

  440. Anonymous

    16 Nov, 2010 - 4:53 pm

    I think it’s all been totally fixed including the appeal judges, who as in other sensitive cases bring in verdicts to coincide with state interests. The demand by the judges that the intelligence services should make disclosure ultimately gives the services an excuse to hide behind.

    And how contrived making public the agreement on the same day as Prince William’s engagement.

    Le’s hope somebody leaks the details of the cases.

  441. Suhayl Saadi

    16 Nov, 2010 - 4:57 pm

    “I find myself obliged to ban Larry from St Louis from commenting on this blog.” Craig Murray, July 8th 2010

  442. Suhayl Saadi

    16 Nov, 2010 - 5:32 pm

    Vronsky, aye, I know, you’re right, sadly: “doomed, we’re aw doomed”. Btw, what’s this about “70 days” – I must’ve missed something. 70 days to what?

  443. ingo

    16 Nov, 2010 - 5:45 pm

    Happy eid to those who celebrate it.

    What an extraordinary use of the legal system by Kenneth Clarke, it must have taken a lot of bending.

    The taxpayer pays out, but is not entitled to hear what for or why.

    I know that we all have to live, but hyperthetically speaking, what if the detainees refuse the payout and demand to have their day in public? what if they demand openly accountable evidence by those two officers accused?

    Sorry for Larry’s appearance on here, he is enthralled by moire, he’s such an insatiable little gimp.

  444. anno

    16 Nov, 2010 - 5:48 pm

    It gives a whole new meaning to the politicians’ cliche ‘ put up or shut up’.

  445. Vronsky

    16 Nov, 2010 - 5:50 pm

    “70 days to what?”

    20 days ago, Mark told us that within 90 days there would be a revelation in Wikileaks about 9/11. You might recollect some talk of hats being eaten should such a thing eventuate. I’m just being very irritating by reminding him. Bet angrylarry has the date in its diary – expect some haw-hawing around the 26th of January.

  446. Suhayl Saadi

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:00 pm

    Eating hats can give one indigestion. I have a number of hats in a variety of styles and would not dream of consuming them. Words, now that’s a different proposition. Eating words can be deeply therapeutic.

  447. Suhayl Saadi

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:01 pm

    Eating hats can give one indigestion. I have a number of hats in a variety of styles and would not dream of consuming them. Words, now that’s a different proposition. Eating words can be deeply therapeutic.

  448. Vronsky

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:10 pm

    “Eating words can be deeply therapeutic.”

    Any interesting recipes? We know of Humble Pie, and Revenge (best served cold) – what else could there be? Think now.

  449. Anonymous

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:20 pm

    “”I find myself obliged to ban Larry from St Louis from commenting on this blog.” Craig Murray, July 8th 2010

    Well for God’s sake do it.

  450. Larry from St. Louis

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:22 pm

    “20 days ago, Mark told us that within 90 days there would be a revelation in Wikileaks about 9/11. You might recollect some talk of hats being eaten should such a thing eventuate. I’m just being very irritating by reminding him. Bet angrylarry has the date in its diary – expect some haw-hawing around the 26th of January.”

    Nope, this actually wasn’t on my radar – in a strong field of stupidity on this conspiracy blog, that claim probably didn’t matter to me.

    Assange has already noted how annoying you idiots are – he’s not a truther, if only because there are no secret documents that confirm trutherism.

  451. Larry from St. Louis

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:23 pm

    Heh Suhayl – is the reason that you’re a failed doctor that you made horribly stupid calls, like continuing to assert that Roderick Russell does not have a mental issue?

  452. somebody

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:24 pm

    It would be good to have Craig’s comment on what was announced today by the florid Mr Kenneth Clarke (with Grieve sitting looking enigmatic behind him) in the HoC, the mother of parliaments!

    Miliband and Straw had the nerve to add their tuppenceworths and the reply was given by Sadiq Khan, Shadow Justice Minister!!! They should all have crept back into the dark holes they inhabit.

    Clarke had a busy day. He was giving evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights.

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/joint-select/human-rights-committee/news/clarke-evidence-session/

  453. Suhayl Saadi

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:43 pm

    A slip twixt cup and lip…

  454. Suhayl Saadi

    16 Nov, 2010 - 6:51 pm

    1981: The Royal Wedding and Lady Di, a big distraction from the worst assault on jobs and public services since the Great Depression.

    Fast-forward 30 years…

    2011: The Royal Wedding and the Ghost of Lady Di, a big distraction from the worst assault on jobs and public services since 1981.

    Watch out! David Dimbleby is coming! Plus ca change…

  455. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    16 Nov, 2010 - 7:26 pm

    somebody,

    With torture pushed into a corner today by ‘other’ news perhaps a shrewd journalist will interview Mr Binyam Mohamed and others before the payout. The transcripts would serve as material for a best selling book – ‘Britain engaged in torture’ might be appropriate.

    “In February, a British court released secret evidence that Mohamed, an Ethiopian-born resident of Britain, had been subjected to “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment during questioning by US agents.

    The information was made public in defiance of ministers’ warnings that such disclosures could harm Britain’s intelligence-sharing relationship with Washington.

    British citizens and residents who were held at the US detention camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba will be among those receiving compensation, reports said, as well as others who claim British agents colluded in their ill-treatment while held as part of the so-called “war on terror”.”

  456. Mark Golding - Children of Iraq

    16 Nov, 2010 - 8:19 pm

    Press Release from Scotland Against Criminalising

    10am Tuesday 16 November

    For immediate release

    Government pressure on Guantanamo men despicable, says human rights group

    Human rights group Scotland Against Criminalising Communities (SACC) welcomes reports, expected to be confirmed by a ministerial statement later today, that former Guantanamo prisoners from Britain are to receive compensation from the Government without having to continue battling their way through the courts.

    But we deplore the fact that the halting of the former prisoners’ civil case against the Government puts an end to the only process currently in sight that might get close to the truth about the British Government’s involvement in rendition, illegal detention and torture. The forthcoming inquiry into these matters, to be chaired by Sir Peter Gibson, the current commissioner for the intelligence services, is clearly going to be a whitewash and will clearly not consider, let alone publish, the sort of evidence that would have been presented in the civil case.

    It is despicable that the Government has forced these traumatised and vulnerable men to choose between getting the compensation they deserve, and having to fight their way endlessly through the courts knowing that the Government will use every trick at its disposal to derail the proceedings.

    The Government says that it is in the national interest to keep these cases out of court. That’s nonsense. It can’t possibly be in the national interest, or in the interest of anything else decent, to lie and to cover up and to evade responsibility for grave crimes under international law.

    The Government’s evasion means that we are all at risk of illegal treatment and torture at the hands of people working for or with the British Government. It means that the whole world can see that the British Government believes illegality to be a central part of its war on terror.

    Britain will not be able to move on until we know the whole truth about this shameful – and probably ongoing – episode in our history, until those responsible have been held to account through the criminal justice system, and until safeguards have been put in place to prevent any such thing happening again.

    The Government has, possibly, got a few traumatised and vulnerable men off its back. Now it has to reckon with the rest of us.

    For more information contact:

    Richard Haley

    contact@sacc.org.uk 07936432519

    http://www.sacc.org.uk

  457. Larry from St. Louis

    16 Nov, 2010 - 8:38 pm

    So Suhayl, what you’re saying is that we’re currently in a three or four year block of time in which one of the two brothers should not get married, lest conspiraloons like you conclude that it’s a conspiracy of distraction.

    Does Suhayl rhyme with Fail?

  458. somebody

    16 Nov, 2010 - 9:50 pm

    The Morning Star leader agrees with us.

    Caught Bang To Rights

    Tuesday 16 November 2010 Printable Email No-one should be conned into believing the weasel words of ministers in this government that compensation is being paid to Guantanamo Bay detainees solely to prevent even more costly litigation.

    Similarly, no-one should believe assertions by former foreign secretary David Miliband that British officials were uninvolved in torture or that Britain did not use information derived from torture.

    Britain has been utterly complicit in the US-masterminded global network of secret torture facilities.

    It has been up to its neck in rendition, illegal detention and torture and has used every trick in the book to cover this up.

    On Miliband’s watch, the Foreign Office went so far as to induce the US State Department to write a letter suggesting that this country’s security would be in jeopardy if details of Binyam Mohamed’s torture at Guantanamo Bay were to be made public.

    /….

    http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/97682

  459. Ruth

    16 Nov, 2010 - 10:18 pm

    The stew of corruption

    The pay-off of millions to stop the civil case of the Guantanamo men revealing the UK’s role in colluding in their transfer overseas and complicity

    in their torture.

    The trade-off of Megrahi to halt an appeal which would reveal the role of the UK government in sending an innocent foreign national to prison.

    The failure of the UK government to hold an inquest into the death of Dr Kelly which would have most probably revealed the hand of the intelligence services in his death.

    The framing of many to hide the role of the intelligence services in removing taxpayers’ money under the guise of excise and VAT fraud.

    “Secrecy”, John Sawers said, “is not a dirty word. Secrecy is not there as a cover-up.’

  460. Roderick Russell

    16 Nov, 2010 - 11:16 pm

    A REAL STEW OPF CORRUPTION — Larry, November 16, 2010 6:23 PM

    The Larry’s are bottom feeders who are paid to TROLL the INTERNET and SMEAR whistle-blowers like myself. It’s his job, and he smears me almost every time I comment. Readers of this blog will note that every time Larry appears it is to smear somebody. He does nothing else. The story that I think Larry is referring to happened after I left Grosvenor International, a company owned by the Duke of Westminster, where I had been Group Controller.

    http://russell46.livejournal.com/

  461. angrysoba

    17 Nov, 2010 - 2:13 am

    Mark Golding:

    “This photographic evidence of the blast is crucial to the theory that explosives (military grade) were placed UNDER the carriage involved in the Edgware Road incident.”

    Are you serious? Unless that picture is upside down and was taken of the underside of the train there is no way that shows an upward explosion.

    “I am searching for the source of this jpeg in the hope that a high definition original can be found for more detailed analysis.”

    Because if that image that blatantly shows a downward explosion is enhanced it MAY reveal an upward explosion?

    I’d give it up Mark because the whole theory of an upward explosion only originated from two sources, if I remember correctly, and one of those was immediately retracted by the reporter who made it.

    I’ve spent very little time looking into this one because it seems to be full of the usual red herrings.

  462. angrysoba

    17 Nov, 2010 - 2:22 am

    “1981: The Royal Wedding and Lady Di, a big distraction from the worst assault on jobs and public services since the Great Depression.”

    Suhayl, I must admit to being surprised that you would post this. I can only imagine this is a joke.

    Everybody knows that the Falklands War was started by Maggie T* to distract everyone from the problems at home and that Lady Di’s wedding was to distract everyone from that. The founding of the Premier League was to distract people from the corrupting influence of the terrible state of family values of the Royals and then the secret service had Lady Di bumped off to distract everyone from her enormous popularity.

    *Like all foreigners, General Galtieri was a misunderstood hapless dupe and his fascist regime was ten times better than the evil Magster, who not coincidentally looks like Davros.

    “2011: The Royal Wedding and the Ghost of Lady Di, a big distraction from the worst assault on jobs and public services since 1981.”

    I think you do the working classes no credit with that remark.

    Besides 1981 wasn’t the peak of unemployment and Maggie T’s “Enemy Within” speech was in 1984.

  463. angrysoba

    17 Nov, 2010 - 2:27 am

    “20 days ago, Mark told us that within 90 days there would be a revelation in Wikileaks about 9/11. You might recollect some talk of hats being eaten should such a thing eventuate. I’m just being very irritating by reminding him. Bet angrylarry has the date in its diary – expect some haw-hawing around the 26th of January.”

    Ha! I don’t remember that. Did I comment on it? Perhaps my stand-in mislaid her notes again. It’s bloody chaos around the NWO office sometimes. How we ever seized control of the world given our lack of organization I’ll never know.

  464. Larry from St. Louis

    17 Nov, 2010 - 3:37 am

    angrysoba, once again you messed up – spelling “organization” that way. Remember – your cover is British.

  465. Suhayl Saadi

    17 Nov, 2010 - 7:32 am

    1) “Suhayl, I must admit to being surprised that you would post this. I can only imagine this is a joke.” angrysoba

    Uhm, no. But if you found it funny, then I’m pleased I brightened-up your day!

    2) “Everybody knows that the Falklands War was started by Maggie T* to distract everyone from the problems at home and that Lady Di’s wedding was to distract everyone from that. The founding of the Premier League was to distract people from the corrupting influence of the terrible state of family values of the Royals and then the secret service had Lady Di bumped off to distract everyone from her enormous popularity.” angrysoba

    Good irony! I do not subscribe to any of those arguments. The Falklands War did turn Thatcher’s popularity from rock-bottom to stratospheric and she/ they milked that to the full, as one might expect. It also coincided with a sea-change (a reversion) to right-wing ideas, etc. in the UK (and USA). Clearly, she didn’t ‘arrange’ it though.

    3) *Like all foreigners, General Galtieri was a misunderstood hapless dupe and his fascist regime was ten times better than the evil Magster, who not coincidentally looks like Davros.” angrysoba

    No, like Thatcher’s great friend, Pinochet (who helped the UK in the Falklands War), Galtieri was a Fascist military dictator whose regime systematically murdered many people in his own country. He initiated the military occupation of the Falklands in order to distract his people from the failing economy and the oppression at home.

    Anyway, Rupert Murdoch is Davros.

    4) ” ’2011: The Royal Wedding and the Ghost of Lady Di, a big distraction from the worst assault on jobs and public services since 1981.’

    I think you do the working classes no credit with that remark.” angrysoba

    I do not suggest that people will not see through such pomp and ceremony. I think reverence for the Monarchy now is far less than it was in 1981, esp. wrt marriages. Nonetheless, in an age of celebrity worship, it provides a long-running, glitzy soap opera – ‘circuses’, if you like – to brighten-up the nation’s lives, a nation in fear of losing it’s job and home, its future. However, the fact that many will not be ‘fooled’ does not preclude the possibility that the Government – many of whom seemed to have attended Eton et al – do the working classes no credit; I would suggest that this criticism would best be directed at David Cameron et al, rather than at me. One can ‘fool some of the people, some of the time’ – or so leaders imagine.

    5) “Besides 1981 wasn’t the peak of unemployment and Maggie T’s “Enemy Within” speech was in 1984.”

    Well, matters may have come to a statistical head in 1984 in the ways you suggest. But 1980-82 saw urban riots across the UK, mass lay-offs, etc. as Chancellor Howe’s policies were implemented. I was around then (a student) and I recall a real sense that urban civil ‘war’ might break out, that troops might on the streets anyday soon. That was over by 1984, frankly. The govt had won the ideological battle by then. 1983′s landslide victory set the seal. It was the shock ‘therapy’ period. In 1981-early 1982, the Conservatives were in a precarious position wrt the future 1983 election , saved only by Labour’s split, the voting-in of Michael Foot and the emergence (that’s another arguably Atlanticist story) of the SDP. The whole thing culminated in the Miners’ Strike of 1984-5, but those years were a whole series of confrontations. In 1981, the Govt’s popularity was rock-bottom. Cameron is not (yet) in that position, but 2011 may be a different story – we shall see.

    The Royal Wedding on its own didn’t reverse the Tories’ poll ratings, but it did set a mood that was conducive to the rise in shlock patriotism which really possessed the rest of the decade. I remember lots of people at the time of the Royal Wedding (of Charles and Diana) commenting on how this was a distraction from the socio-economic disaster, the effects of which we still see. It was a commonly-held view at the time. It doesn’t mean it was correct, of course. But views assume their own power, whether one is a monarchist or a republican and that may have been enough.

  466. somebody

    17 Nov, 2010 - 8:22 am

    Well said Ruth and Suhayl.

  467. angrysoba

    17 Nov, 2010 - 1:51 pm

    ” However, the fact that many will not be ‘fooled’ does not preclude the possibility that the Government – many of whom seemed to have attended Eton et al – do the working classes no credit; I would suggest that this criticism would best be directed at David Cameron et al, rather than at me. One can ‘fool some of the people, some of the time’ – or so leaders imagine.”

    Well, if the Royal Wedding is too extravagant maybe it’ll set the tumbrells rollings.

  468. Jon

    17 Nov, 2010 - 3:48 pm

    Suhayl – splendid post at 7:32 AM, thanks. You do get up early!

    Talking of the miners’ strike, have you read “The Enemy Within”? I can’t remember if I’ve recommended it here before, but it’s very good. An interesting and level-headed analysis, unlike some of its contemporaries, which may have been intended as hatchet-jobs to discredit these working-class movements.

  469. evgueni

    17 Nov, 2010 - 4:17 pm

    Ladies and gents,

    strictly on topic – I think there is hope despite the inescapably correct summing up by CM of the situation now. No we do not live in a democratic state. No it was never more democratic in the past though perhaps more equitable for a time (we can speculate why..). Let’s go back to first principles to make this clear. Demos = people, kratos = rule. “People-rule” does not ring true in the UK, US or any other ‘Western democracy’ with one exeption that is notable also by its absence from discussion here. (Job well done, MSM..) The place is Switzerland and what’s different there is that Initiative & Referendum is a right not merely hypothetically available at the federal as well as local government levels but actually practiced regularly because it is accessible. Incidentally I find it telling that the Swiss political system is virtually never discussed in the mainstream UK media (Brian Beedham’s attempt in the Economist notwithstanding). I can recommend Gregory Fossedal’s Direct Democracy in Switzerland as a starting point. Some literature and DVD material are also available free from Swiss Consulates. The Swiss constitution is online in English translation. Lots more through Google. Victor Hugo is attributed a quote along the lines of ‘Switzerland will speak the last word in history’. I think I know what he meant – once the right to amend the constitution is in the hands of the people, it is hard to imagine how this can be reversed by elite interests. Indeed the 150+ years of I&R in Switzerland suggests that it cannot. To be sure, Switzerland is not without its own problems. But then popular sovereignty in true form as in Switzerland and increasingly elsewhere is a necessary but not sufficient condition of true democracy (‘people- rule’ as opposed to merely ‘people-elect’).

    The other necessary condition is information. I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said that he would rather live in a country without elections than in one without newspapers. In extremis this is a patent truism – we cannot speak of a meaningful democracy if there is no information on which to base decisions at the polls. By extention our ability to practice democracy is impaired if we are fed a lot of spin. Though this is probably the lesser problem with our MSM, the more insidious kind of bias being that of omission. Questions that will not be posed such as for example the one we are covering now..

    So where is the hope? I do not think it is with any of the main political parties. It is likely that we have reached the limits of what party politics can do for democracy. Fundamentally, the ultimate interests of political parties and those of the people diverge – this much should be clear by now. The hope for me is represented by the growing awareness worldwide of the I&R rights, the growing awareness of the severe limitations of privately owned for-profit news media, the relatively new possibilities opened up by the internet – long-term effects of which on politics are by no means clear yet. To quote Hugo again – there is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. All kinds of people are starting to talk about direct democracy in the UK – examples include Charter 88, Our Say, English Democrats, UKIP, Respect, Rowntree Foundation…

    Another source of hope is the successful experiments with workplace democracy around the world, e.g. Semco in Brazil, Mondragon in Spain and lots more. People who learn about real democracy at work sooner or later will be asking questions about the political organisation beyond the workplace, perhaps. Perhaps I&R will find its way into UK politics via an enlightened consensus amongst some of the political elites. Maybe economic reality will drive this home – there are strong indications that democratic workplaces and democratic communities are more competitive and resilient economically.

    Without question the biggest obstacle to democratic progress is the subservience of UK MSM to elite interests. In this regard I have an embrio of an idea for a project – to create an alternative news medium and legitimise it in the eyes of the majority who currently read/listen/watch MSM and are not aware of what is omitted from the discussion. In my view this is the biggest problem facing alternative news media on the internet – these voices can be credibly dismissed in the mainstream propaganda as fringe and untrustworthy. The way to deal with this is to come up with a model for a news medium that is as democratic as possible. The following attributes I think are necessary:

    - a published constitution that sets out how exactly impartiality is to be enforced

    - an editorial board that is regularly elected by the public to decide on resource allocation and coverage policy

    - extensive workplace democracy within the organisation

    - transparent decision-making by the editorial board with minutes of all meetings published online

    - binding rules on free and impartial coverage allocation to all political parties irrespective of size

    - not-for-profit status accompanied by detailed accounting disclosure online

    Probably public donations would have to constitute a significant part of the income stream. Advertising revenue does not need to be excluded from the funding options but some further thought is required on how to avoid conflicts of interest.

    In conclusion, to paraphrase Mark Twain – apologies for the long post, I didn’t have time to write a short one.

    Evgueni.

  470. Suhayl Saadi

    17 Nov, 2010 - 5:16 pm

    Wow! Evgueni, that is a brilliant post, if I may say. It’s a great springboard for discussion. Your suggestions and allusions remind me a little of Augusto Boal’s ‘Theatre of the Oppressed’!

  471. Suhayl Saadi

    17 Nov, 2010 - 5:28 pm

    angrysoba, re. rolling tumbrells, one lives in hope…!

    somebody, Jon, thanks. I haven’t read that book (though I had heard of it), actually. I shall though, esp. now you’ve reminded me of it, thanks.

    Jon, re. circadian rhythms, I have found that I am generally a ‘lark’. Since evgueni has set us off in literary vein, I am reminded that John Updike once said that when he wrote first thing in the morning, he felt as though the writing was an extension of his dreams. I have experienced this conjunction on many occasions. However, I can be an ‘owl’ (anytime after 4pm) when necessary or pertinent. Afternoons (2-4pm) are the fallow-time for most of us. Siesta is an excellent idea.

    Returning to our ornithological metaphors, the ultimate aim, of course, is to be a hoopoe (hud-hud).

  472. Roderick Russell

    17 Nov, 2010 - 5:33 pm

    Yes, a really great idea Evgueni!!!!

    But you also hit the cruz of the matter when you said – “I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said that he would rather live in a country without elections than in one without newspapers”. Isn’t that the problem ?” our media are unlikely to debate change since they are too easily censored by the establishment elites who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

  473. Jon

    17 Nov, 2010 - 9:00 pm

    @Evgueni, very interesting idea at the end (and a great post all round). The problem of a better media model is funding, I think, otherwise it might already have happened. I tend towards the socialist view that, if a better quality of media system is developed, the old corporatist systems would attack and ridicule it, much as the BBC is under right-wing attack now (and it should not be taken as read that I regard the BBC well – just less bad than the others).

    Even if funding were available, I am not sure it can survive neocapitalism. Either our current version of capitalism needs to achieve the liberal ideal and achieve sustainable equality between the classes, or capitalism needs to be torn down and replaced with something better. Neither are likely in the short term, though in the long term I am more optimistic.

    A better oversight mechanism would be a good idea for the existing elite media, but how to implement it? It would be like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas. I thought it an April fools joke when notorious bully Paul Dacre [editor of the Daily Mail] was appointed governor of the PCC [Press Complaints Commission] – rather like making Bliar a Peace Envoy to the Middle East. But sadly it was true, and the nutter is still in post to this day.

    It should be borne in mind also that PCC decisions and guidelines are not binding anyway – the industry generally “agrees” to abide by them. But the newspapers can do what they want, in the end.

    What can be done in the short term? Well, I suggest:

    1. support niche media and radical journalists where you can. What that includes is up to you, but it might be a subscription to Z Magazine or Red Pepper, the purchase of books by Pilger or Curtis, or buying the Morning Star.

    2. donate or assist media awareness and lobbying projects, such as Media Lens or the Glasgow Media Group. Some progressive organisations such as Avaaz and 38 Degrees touch on media issues (I recently posted on another thread here about a call-out from 38D on Rupert Murdoch’s attempt to acquire the whole of Sky).

    Other than those things, I am not sure. Getting people in general to care about the state of the world probably requires a better media system, but to get a better media system we need more people to care about the state of the world. Which should come first?

  474. Jon

    17 Nov, 2010 - 9:24 pm

    Ah, I should have mentioned one other thing in relation to the broader point about getting people involved, and interested, in the bread-and-butter of local and national decision-making. This would be decision-making in the sense of Evgueni’s post – not just taking part in elections, but learning intimately about how a country runs, and having a genuine and real say about how to change things that aren’t working.

    The thing I’d mention is to recommend you look into a proposal from a chap called Michael Albert, who has proposed a new economic model called Participatory Economics (“Parecon”). It has a lot of interesting features, but the most intriguing one for me was Balanced Job Complexes. His theory is that workplace democracy and workers councils don’t work very well, because the views of a confident creative class tend to rise to the top, and the views of an uncertain and unhappy menial class are drowned out. He suggests that by asking the confident classes to take on some menial work, and encouraging rote workers to undertake creative (“empowering”) work, class divisions can be reduced in a sustainable way.

    There’s a substantial article on Wikipedia, if anyone’s interested. I have yet to buy a book on it, but his recent talk in my local area was fascinating and inspiring.

  475. Vronsky

    18 Nov, 2010 - 9:35 am

    Michael Albert was interviewed by Bella Caledonia here: tinyurl.com/38rvhqd

    I haven’t had much time to get into parecon, but at the moment it seems a bit vague to me. Still working my way through ‘Limits to Growth’ and ‘The Wealth of Nature’. The revolution will have come and gone before I’ve finished doing the reading for it.

    “For books are not absolutely dead things, but do contain a potency of life in them to be as active as that soul was whose progeny they are; nay, they do preserve as in a vial the purest efficacy and extraction of that living intellect that bred them. I know they are as lively, and as vigorously productive, as those fabulous dragon’s teeth; and being sown up and down, may chance to spring up armed men.”

    - Milton, Areopagitica

  476. ingo

    18 Nov, 2010 - 11:22 am

    thanks Ruth Suhayl and Evgueni for the great posts.

    Like your media blueprint Evgueni. Have you though about the seasonally re-elected board? could these public votes be ‘jeopardised’ by influences beyond the boards control? companies agenda’s

    i.e.en masse voting, ala vodafone Heathrow, pressure from employers?

    I suppose any system that is complex has, the possibility of mistakes occuring, build into it from the start. Does this mean that small is truly beautifull? Schumacher redeemed again.

  477. evgueni

    19 Nov, 2010 - 2:48 pm

    Thank you Suhayl, Roderick, Jon, Ingo for encouraging words. These thoughts have been brewing in my head for a while..

    I agree there are problems with my idea for a democratic news medium. One problem is securing sufficient funding by means that do not result in conflict of interest. I think it is possible to use advertising as a revenue source if internal decision-making is democratic and transparent. Possibly a bigger potential problem is safeguarding against co-ordinated efforts of pressure groups and SIFs. I can envisage attempts at distorting priorities through the external voting mechanisms. This would damage the perception of impartiality by the public. Still there is only one way to find out if it could work. For sure this idea would come under attack from the establishment but I am less worried about that somehow. I believe the majority are sufficiently wary of the establishment that any criticism originating from it would simply stand or fall on its own merit. It would have to be credible to stick.

    It seems to me that the existing internet based media are doing a great job of providing an alternative to MSM. Trouble is it’s mostly preaching to the converted, a minority of people who already know they won’t find the answers in the usual places and are actively looking elsewhere. I am trying to imagine a way of getting the attention of the majority who are at present put off from any kind of search for truth. This despondency I think is the result of feeling powerless to effect change, ignorance of how our society and our media really function, or both. Many are put off by the overt leftist bias or the radical tone of some alternative internet news media. I think in the eyes of these people a news outlet can only have legitimacy if it emphatically isn’t right-wing, left-wing, green or of any other ideological hue and if they can see that ultimately this impartiality is derived from its democratic way of functioning and ownership.

    Incidentally the kind of society I imagine would result after I&R and news-media-as-a-public-service became reality, is not one in which the people are actively engaged politically on all major issues just because they have access to information and are able to participate in a meaningful way. The Swiss experience points away from that. What actually tends to happen is this – the credible threat of effective action by the people serves as a check on elite interests and the normal structures of representative government. Corruption cannot take hold, the market for lobbyists is greatly diminished. It seems that most people would rather go about their daily business and leave politics to the politicians safe in the knowledge that they have ultimate recourse, should the politicians abuse their trust. That said, the Swiss are better informed on the political issues of the day and turn out at the polls more than other nations where direct democracy is not practiced.

    Further info here if by chance I got someone hooked!

    http://www.iri-europe.org/en/publications/guidebooks/

    Evgueni.

  478. Bobert

    21 Nov, 2010 - 2:39 pm

    Democracy? In a pig’s arse. It is just an illusion to keep the populace at large from becoming to revolting just the same as allowing betting, booze, bingo and football.

    The French found a solution in 1789 …

  479. ingo

    23 Nov, 2010 - 12:13 pm

    Thanks for more of your thoughts and the link evgueni, as for Swiss models of democracy.

    Have you got any idea how it is possible to get it so wrong in the case of bernhard Rappaz. He is pioneering new low carbon ideas and processes, but the established industrial powers/the pharma industry just does not like it and are using the system and law to destroy the man.

    http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/wrsnews/rappaz-says-hell-end-hunger-strike-for-break.shtml?21889

  480. evgueni

    24 Nov, 2010 - 4:23 pm

    Ingo,

    sorry for the delay. I was not aware of Bernhard Rappaz’s case. One thing I would say is that the Swiss have a sense of ‘owning’ their laws that is not felt elsewhere. Compliance is very high, possibly because the rule of law is not seen as something that is forced on people from above. Incidentally it has been shown specifically that tax compliance is highest in Swiss cantons where taxation and spending decisions are subject to popular referenda and/or can be challenged by Initiative. In contrast here in the UK the opposite is true. We are truly ruled from above with few opportunities for recourse. I think as a result we sympathise a lot more with those who challenge authority, even criminals sometimes.

    I think in the eyes of a Swiss person, there is an alternative to a confrontational course of action available to anyone with strong views on how society ought to function. If change is widely supported it can be brought about by mobilising for an Initiative. If the Initiative fails, the losers in the main acquiesce because they feel they lost ‘fair and square’. I guess in the eyes of most Swiss people there is no need to pit oneself against society by taking criminal action.

    That said, I do not believe that the Swiss political system is close to perfection. I am convinced that democratic MSM is as essential as true popular sovereignty is. In that regard the Swiss are scarcely more advanced than other nations. The conflicts of interest that are inherent in privately controlled, for-profit MSM are largely unresolved. This could give advantage to established interests aiming to preserve status quo with regard to policies that privilege those interests.

    I would also say that Initiative & Referendum rights combined with democratic MSM still would not give us a society that is in some widely accepted sense ‘perfect’. I guess there will always be groups and individuals with diverging interests wishing for change. The achievement of Initiative & Referendum is that it provides a realistic non-confrontational path for conflict resolution within modern society. There is no question in my mind that the Swiss model of democratic society is preferable to representative systems like the UK or the USA (at federal level). One reason stands out for me above the rest – it precludes the possibility of any wars of aggression (just imagine such a system in the UK!).

    Another reason is that it is the first political system in which popular sovereignty is implemented in practice rather than in theory only, at national (federal) level, making it extremely resilient to external and internal shocks and therefore stable in the long term. Switzerland ‘will have the last word in history’ in the sense that it will provide the blueprint for other nations’ eventual transition from unstable open-loop political systems to self-correcting closed-loop systems. Excuse the engineering jargon, what I mean is this. With the arrival of Initiative the people have won the authoring rights to the basic law of the land – the Constitution. As a form of communicating electorates’ wishes to the representatives this is far superior to elections alone. It is a much stronger and more immediate mechanism for feedback between the governed and the government (hence the analogy of closed-loop versus open-loop systems).

    Furthermore, the only conceivable way to reverse the attainment of I&R right is to convince the electorate to give it up, a decision that would have to be ratified in a referendum. Needless to say this is extremely unlikely. In actual fact the reverse trend has been taking place in Switzerland as I&R has become more accessible. So this is why I say such a system is stable in the long term. The self-correction mechanism arises from the ability of the electorate to check the influence of vested interests on the legislature and to rewrite the Constitution including the details of implementation of I&R rights such as the numbers of signatures required to trigger referenda at various levels, quorums, areas of legislation that are accessible to I&R, delegation of powers from local government to federal government and so on.

    Eventually this could lead society a step closer to ‘perfection’ when ideas of individual sovereignty start to be discussed widely. I found these ideas fascinating when I came across them in the writings of John F Knutsen (he calls these ideas Devolved Popular Sovereignty). At the heart of Bernhard Rappaz’s problem with Swiss society is the apparent conflict between individual liberty and popular sovereignty, resolved nicely by Knutsen’s proposal I think:

    http://www.basiclaw.net/

    Once again apologies for the length of this..

    Evgueni.

  481. ingo

    25 Nov, 2010 - 11:02 am

    Evgueni, thanks again for your epitaph.

    They have sold the property he owned whilst he was hardly compos mentis well into a hunger strike, how can that be possible.

    Paragraph 6 of the European Human rights act, and I believe Switzerland has signed up to it as a transit country, clearly states that unless you harm somebody else, you are allowed to abuse yourself in the privacy of your own property, one could argue this to extend to all of your property, as long as its private.

    The initiative was lost by very little and there is now a large minority thats agrees with utilising Hemp farming and all low carbon expertise that comes with it.

    Not that they are doing it in the open, but all I can see is the machinations of large multinationals behind the scenes, trying to oust this man as a lawbreaking idiot who wants to take his own life, he is not.

    The Swiss might be proud of their own created law, but it can not be absolute.

    Swiss banking excesses and privacy has deprived millions of poor people of their rightfull taxes and services,i th as covered criminals and gangs who use these accounts to clean their dirty money.

    Swiss high society and establishment has a historic account with humanity, its banks supported and helped the Nazi’s and they have covered up contemporary crimes by means of secret accounting.

    This issue is unconnected with Bernhard, merely an example as to why the swiss sytems is not as perfect as always made out, and something the kantons can change, as you so rightly point out.

    They could end this gastly legacy with one foul stroke, but would they?

    The rich and powerfull in Swiss society will always manage to bend the law in their own direction, laws that do not cover the social responsibilities of banks and their customers, are rigidly applied to the Swiss themselves, thats far from perfect don’t you think?

    How can laws be blind to certain crimes because money changes hands?

    Should you be able to get me on to Swiss radio, let us know, I’m willing to square up to anyone on this issue, in my native German or, preferably, in English.

    Shall bring my own crossbow and apple?(:-)

    Free Bernhard Rappaz!

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