Another Vicious Ugly-Souled Feminist

by craig on July 28, 2011 11:44 am in Uncategorized

The Guardian has released yet another vicious man-hater on the world to pontificate on the DSK case. This one is called Zoe Williams.

Ms Williams actually thinks that it is a bad thing that:

“when a charge of sexual assault is made, everything the accuser says is picked over for inconsistency and improbability”

You do seriously have to question whether Ms Williams world view is not lacking in sane objectivity, if she can write that without self-reflection. No, of course Ms Williams, we should just immediately put the accused in a hell-hole for seven years without questioning the evidence of the accuser. Who could possibly have the temerity to examine the evidence?

Ms Williams brings in another red herring – the accuser’s immigration status. She quotes a Ms Dustin as saying “rape victims can have insecure immigration status … and they can still be raped”.

Of course that is true. It is also irrelevant. It is not Ms Diallo’s immigration status which is relevant. It is the fact that she admits that she lied on her application – and lied about being raped. Of course that calls her credibility into question. It damn well should.

Listen, Ms Williams. I expect I have done a great deal more, in the real world, to help asylum seekers than you have. I have given evidence for asylum seekers in dozens of cases. I have appeared at their tribunals. I am working on three cases right now. I have never lost a case at appeal. I have organised campaigns which have prevented two last minute deportations – one stopped literally on the way to the airport.

If there is one thing hated by those of us who genuinely have put in the hard graft to help real asylum seekers, it is false, lying asylum applicants who poison the minds of the public and administrators of the system against those in real need. Butt out, Williams. You have no idea what you are talking about.

There are other lies. Ms Diallo lied about her number of children to claim social security benefit, lied about her income to get state housing, lied about very large sums paid into her bank accounts. The same applies – defending welfare provision is not helped by benefit cheats. Yet we should not question her credibility?

There is other nonsense in Williams’ article. She claims that the discrepancy in Diallo’s account is only about whether she went to the next room to collect her things, but actually it is about a full missing hour in which she lied about where she was – lied repeatedly and for no obvious reason, not just in the immediate aftermath when, had she been attacked, she would have been in shock.

I could go on, but I won’t. The final thing worth noting is the quite amazing claim that:

Diallo’s credibility – which is undermined here by hints about her trustworthiness in a range of situations rather than any evidence about her sexual behaviour – comes under so much more scrutiny than Strauss-Kahn’s.

What absolute nonsense! We have been treated to mound upon mound of stuff about DSK’s past sexual encounters, his sexual harassment of women who have worked for him (of which I strongly disapprove), a previous allegation of assault, his use of prostitutes. Not least by the Guardian. To pretend that Diallo has had her past unpicked more than Strauss Kahn is another example of the distorted world view of those who see women as nothing but victims.

The Sheridan case, the DSK case and the Assange case have all brought to the fore the true ugliness of sex negative feminism and man hatred, and the extent to which they made inroads into our culture and society just as insidious as the right wing propaganda of the Murdochs. They have also shown how those right wing forces can so easily hijack stupid blinkered man haters to the right wing agenda.

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73 Comments

  1. Read Racist for Feminist if you happen to catch this character on the radio. I heard him talking about sharia law this morning and saying that if we did not stand up to the propaganda to introduce it here more generally, we would end up with another Breivik.
    .
    http://www.lbc.co.uk/james-obrien-3537

  2. “right wing agenda”
    .
    That would be where fact becomes fiction, truth becomes the lie. Ask Murdoch, he is a master craftsman in this sinister art.

  3. The Guardian has released yet another vicious man-hater on the world

    A small shame Craig that you chose to use the words “has released” as the text anchor link to Ms Williams – when you could so easily have used “man-hater” as the link text, instead.

    Ah well.

  4. technicolour

    28 Jul, 2011 - 2:11 pm

    Allegations…allegations… a headline like ‘Another Vicious Ugly-Souled Feminist’ is plainly suffering from an extreme case of the allegations. It is alleged that Strauss Kahn did this; it is alleged that his accuser did something else. It is alleged that Zoe Williams is ‘vicious and ugly-souled’ and hates men; the headline implies, triumphantly, that yet another ‘feminist’ has been unmasked.

    The Williams piece was bad; it clearly assumes that Strauss-Kahn was guilty, and twists itself to try and reinforce that assumption. What this says about Williams’ soul, or agenda, I don’t know. But since this piece pulls out every allegation against the accuser in return, I fail to see much clear water between them. You don’t demonstrate ‘innocent until proven guilty’ by these tactics, do you?

    And to smear the word ‘feminist’ with this kind of language is wrong on another level; feeding into right wing reactionary viciousness as surely as if you’d ordered Williams back into the kitchen. Why not say ‘Another Vicious Ugly-Souled Person’? It wouldn’t sound as vicious itself, of course. And it doesn’t play into the ‘men are victims’ sketch quite as powerfully. But I’m surprised you’d need to do either.

    Before I get accused of being blinded by hate-filled propagandists, again, I’d point out that a) I am an equalitist b) some of my best friends are men and women c) I am entirely against trial by media, including this one d) I am aware, and condemn the fact, that some men have been successfully smeared by false accusations of rape and of course agree any investigation should be rigorous e) I have no idea, as there has been no trial, and I have no primary sourced evidence, who did what to whom where and f) I find the personal backgrounds of both parties irrelevant, since I uphold the cause of ‘innocent until proven guilty’.

    Finally: ‘sex negative feminism’ (thanks for the eventual qualification), which could better be described as ‘sex negativity’, and ‘man hatred’, which could better be described as ‘hatred’, are features of the Murdoch press, and of the Mail and Metro and their ilk. Dividing and ruling are what these people are good at.

  5. That headline, Craig, was worthy of NOTW: not just one, but yet ANOTHER ‘vicious, ugly-souled feminist'; is there really any other kind? Unworthy of you, Craig. By the way, and with all respect to the good work you do, I can’t really condemn some kinds of exaggerations on an asylum request if that’s what it takes to get out of a hell-hole. Like Hirsi Ali, I would do it too.

  6. just out of context, has anybody realised that there is unnoticed war is going on between Iran and kurds of Irak these days. For the last two-three days Iran has moved significant number of military forces into Irak’s kurdish population areas and started bombing them.

  7. *Oh, let’s not be beastly to the Germans*
    .
    @ Technicolour
    .
    Allegations…allegations… a headline like ‘Another Vicious Ugly-Souled Nazi’ is plainly suffering from an extreme case of the allegations. It is alleged that ‘a Jew’ did this; it is alleged that his accuser did something else. It is alleged that Adolf Hitler is ‘vicious and ugly-souled’ and hates Jews; the headline implies, triumphantly, that yet another ‘Nazi’ has been unmasked.

    The Hitler piece was bad; it clearly assumes that the Jew was guilty, and twists itself to try and reinforce that assumption. What this says about Hitlers’ soul, or agenda, I don’t know. But since this piece pulls out every allegation against the accuser in return, I fail to see much clear water between them. You don’t demonstrate ‘innocent until proven guilty’ by these tactics, do you?

    And to smear the word ‘Nazi’ with this kind of language is wrong on another level; feeding into left wing reactionary viciousness as surely as if you’d ordered Hitler back into arts class. Why not say ‘Another Vicious Ugly-Souled Person’? It wouldn’t sound as vicious itself, of course. And it doesn’t play into the ‘Germans are victims’ sketch quite as powerfully. But I’m surprised you’d need to do either.

    Before I get accused of being blinded by hate-filled propagandists, again, I’d point out that a) I am Neville Chamberlain b) some of my best friends are Jews and Nazis c) I am entirely against trial by media, including this one d) I am aware, and condemn the fact, that some Jews have been successfully smeared by false accusations of subversion and of course agree any investigation should be rigorous e) I have no idea, as there has been no trial, and I have no primary sourced evidence, who did what to whom where and f) I find the personal backgrounds of both parties irrelevant, since I uphold the cause of ‘peace in our time!’.

    Finally: ‘patriot negative Nazism’ (thanks for the eventual qualification), which could better be described as ‘patriot negativity’, and ‘Jew hatred’, which could better be described as ‘hatred’, are features of the Goebbels’ press, and of the Völkischer Beobachter and Metro and their ilk. Dividing and ruling are what these people are good at.

  8. Uzbek in the UK

    28 Jul, 2011 - 4:27 pm

    Credibility is extremely important particularly is cases like this one. But on the other hand DSK has few powerful friends and the ‘victim’ hardly knows anyone who is not involved in drug dealings. So, if it comes to sleaze against sleaze my bid is on DSK.

  9. @Technicolour, good response all round. I’d not spotted that ‘feminist’ was unfairly debased in the title, but I think you’re quite right. I normally quite like Williams pieces but yes, it does rather sound like she’s bending the case to fit a particular world-view.
    .
    I don’t know how helpful it is to regard Williams as vicious, though – perhaps misguided would be a better term. The problem with going off the deep end is that it stops the other person (and their supporters) hearing you even more abruptly. Which does no-one any good, especially when the criticism is otherwise valid.
    .
    And no, Jimmy, Zoe Williams isn’t remotely comparable to Hitler, nor misandry with Nazism. Such a suggestion, if made in all seriousness, would just be nuts.

  10. Wow! Misguided feminists. Now there’s a thing and a half.
    .
    Will the not misguided feminists please stand up. Otherwise how can we distinguish one from the other.
    .
    The main problem with these identity politics is that they’re not identical. In public life and the political and business realm there are neither men nor women. There are merely social actors. Their men and womeness is an attendant factor but it is not the essence of what’s going on. That ought to be obvious now to even the most casual observer.
    .
    That’s why any politics based on such dubious distinctions will rapidly lose touch with enlightenment rationalism and descend rapidly into fascism.
    .
    Zoe ought to have observed by now that women who achieve power in public life never become women in the sense she wishes them to be. She rabbits on enough about it.
    .
    If your theory is shown so often to be wrong, best practice is generally to find a better one.

  11. technicolour

    28 Jul, 2011 - 5:50 pm

    Jon, thanks; Judith, succinctly put; JimmyGiro, alas; Herbie, feminists who include Helena Kennedy, Naomi Wolf, Gloria Steinem and Natasha Walters have and do stand up. Anyone: ‘feminist’ does not mean ‘misandrist': get your terms right. Personally, I aim for equality of choice, opportunity, education and pay and concentrate my efforts on achieving this for both genders: in most of these areas this includes a healthy dose of fighting for the equal rights of women before equality can be anywhere near achieved. As the exhaustive thread from which poor Jimmy learnt nothing some months ago pointed out with exhaustive research: women are paid less for the same jobs in this country; made to do more part-time or short term jobs with concomitant loss of security, holiday pay and pensions; have less access to higher paid jobs; are more likely to be put on addictive and dangerous anti-depressants, and so on. On the other hand men are more likely to be trapped into being child soldiers, boys are more likely to be given Ritalin, men are more likely to be driven into soul-destroying banking jobs and so on.

    The genders need to realise that everyone is being exploited by the capitalist system (just as they were under feudalism and communism and are under corporate communism). To try and continue to find a way towards a more egalitarian world is hardly easy, but the lack of common humanity in these misogynist posts is hardly going to help. I think.

  12. “Vicious”? “Ugly-souled”? “Feminist”? Not just one, but “another” one. Because the world is teeming with them. Us.

    This is disturbing stuff coming from you, Craig. I’m an admirer of yours and I’m hoping this is an aberration.

    What I drew from the piece was that there is a skewed treatment of the accuser. Yes, they have to be treated equally before the law. However, Strauss-Khan’s resorting to his lawyers and the PR campaign destroying the woman’s reputation before she has had a chance to put her case means that the playing-field is no longer level. She’s been forced into the public arena to re-humanise herself.

    DSK may be innocent — I want to see him given the chance to prove this in court if that is the case. If it’s not the case, then what I’ve learnt is that, as long as privileged, rich and powerful men target poor uneducated women who may have gone through desperate troubled times, they may get away with rape.

    A couple of examples of incidents where a jury would need clarification: the missing hour. In shock, you do sometimes go into automatic mode as the horror sinks in — especially if she is conditioned by her background to fear power to a paralysing degree. The overheard phone conversation hasn’t been properly translated (did the story come from Diallo’s or DSK’s side?).

    I just don’t know. It needs to be proved in a court of law. But the public monstering of Diallo is horrible. Poverty breeds all sorts of ugly circumstances where people are forced to survive. Perhaps we should be debating the class dimension rather than solely gender and race.

  13. Herbie, well I’ve had this particular ding-dong with Jimmy (though I think we had to abandon that discussion, and the reasons why will I dare say sharply differ between us!).
    .
    For the record, I regard myself as a feminist, and take the view that there is still plenty of positive meaning for the term. I am of the opinion that the inertia of past male dominance hasn’t yet given way to full gender equality, and so – as we observe – men dominate in politics as they do in business. Part of this is an ‘old boys club’, which feminists might call the ‘patriarchy’, and it is perfectly legitimate as a political grievance.
    .
    However of course mixed into the debate is the question of whether gender balance in any particular area is derived also from learnt roles/behaviours during childhood, and if so whether gender opportunity cannot be determined simply by looking at raw ratios. In this context, sex discrimination is therefore thornier to deal with than, say, race discrimination.
    .
    My rule of thumb for differentiating the misguided feminists is to see whether their views have given way to misandry. I should think there are plenty of feminists who don’t hate men – maybe they don’t get such a good media billing?!

  14. “And no, Jimmy, Zoe Williams isn’t remotely comparable to Hitler, nor misandry with Nazism. Such a suggestion, if made in all seriousness, would just be nuts.” Jon.
    .
    Yep.

  15. Kerrist! Who are you and what have you done with the normal, decent guy I knew of as Craig Murray?

    Whoever you are, you’ve illustrated yet again the fact that it’s not feminists who hate men nearly so much as men who hate feminists. What a ludicrous tar-brushing title, what immoderate language, what an incredible lack of self-awareness to launch such an attack while repeating words like ‘vicious’ and ‘poison’ ad infinitum!

    You may not agree with the content of Williams’ article, but to describe this:

    “Still, it’s understandable that with a crime in which it’s one person’s word against another, the credibility of the accuser takes on greater importance than it would otherwise. What is not understandable is the fact that Diallo’s credibility – which is undermined here by hints about her trustworthiness in a range of situations rather than any evidence about her sexual behaviour – comes under so much more scrutiny than Strauss-Kahn’s.”

    as evidence of poison and man-hating is just, well, hysterical. You yourself spend most of your post going through Diallo’s alleged lies – fair enough, but where’s the evidence for the man-hatred you were frothing about? What prompted this bizarre spasm?

    “No, of course Ms Williams, we should just immediately put the accused in a hell-hole for seven years without questioning the evidence of the accuser. Who could possibly have the temerity to examine the evidence?”

    I think you really need to ask yourself what you’re so angry about here. Is it because the media have picked apart your own sex life in the past? I agree that that is despicable, especially since it was clearly politically motivated and intended to smear, but why take it out on feminism?

  16. Technicolour, excellent posts.
    .

    Not exactly on-topic, more in the emotive spirit of great posts and giving powerful voice… play it, Dusty!:
    .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl4FzeK9jlc

  17. technicolour

    28 Jul, 2011 - 7:32 pm

    Jon: agree that Williams is hardly coming across as ‘vicious’ either; unlike, say, Richard Littlejohn, or Melanie Phillips. Or, sad to say, this attack on her and an honourable movement which was engendered (no pun intended) by empirical inequality and exploitation which persists in various forms to this day; including among our allies abroad – Karzai ‘rape is legal in marriage’ of USUKAfghanistan, for example.

  18. alan campbell

    28 Jul, 2011 - 8:21 pm

    Craig Murray channels his inner Jeremy Clarkson. There’s already an incredibly low conviction rate for rape charges – less than 10%?. Is it any wonder when so many men – especially famous and rich men – are convinced that they are above accusation?

  19. technicolour

    28 Jul, 2011 - 8:37 pm

    Alan Campbell: what’s the correlation between Craig Murray, rape conviction rates and ‘rich and famous men’? Are ‘rich and famous men’, in your view, more likely to commit rape? Is Craig more likely to support ‘rich and famous men’ per se (evidence from Uzbekistan and since suggests not). Do you know that the overall rape conviction rate is too low because of ‘rich and famous men’ or do you just suspect that it is ‘too low’ and suggest it?

  20. Rape convictions are ‘too low’ relative to false rape allegations, which are too high. Women are being taught by Marxist-Feminists to regard men as untermensch, and disregard culture and justice:
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrvDhSB7GHk&feature=related

  21. technicolour

    28 Jul, 2011 - 9:32 pm

    This is just non-sense: “Rape convictions are ‘too low’ relative to false rape allegations, which are too high.”

    This is simply untrue: “Women are being taught by Marxist-Feminists to regard men as untermensch, and disregard culture and justice”

    And here I leave this post, until someone has something of sense to say.

  22. Alan: rape is a unique crime, since it rests entirely on the word of one person or the other, and (I guess) it is much more difficult to prove. So if the ratio of accusations to convictions is much lower than for other crimes, I’d reckon it is hard to determine what component of that is down to “being hard to prove”, and what part is down to “odds stacked against the victim”.
    .
    That said, I am certainly in favour of more rapists being successfully prosecuted. The dilemma for me – as I noted in previous debates on this topic – is the lingering worry that if we try to increase the conviction rate arbitrarily, then injustice might be done the other way. Indeed, some of the language of some people within the wider debate comes rather close to suggesting that due process isn’t as important as women’s rights, since, well, the man probably did it, didn’t he? Wouldn’t have been accused if they didn’t (etc, ad nauseum).

  23. Poor old Karl Marx comes in for a lot of flak, doesn’t he? Actually, a lot of the contemporary suffocation of thought through multiple means, including language, comes from the cult of managerialism in the USA, rather than from Karl Marx. To a large extent, too, the diversionary obsession with individual ‘positive thinking’ derives from right-wing dogma in the inter-war period.
    .
    So, stop knocking Karl Marx. It’s facile. He wasn’t infallible – neither were/are any of the philosophers – but he wrote much that was profound, important and prescient, especially, of course, wrt capitalism.
    .
    Posts like this seem, in some – though, as has been demonstrated by technicolour, Jon and others, definitely not all – commentators, to bring out an unfortunate, reactionary atavism and a dearth of logical analysis.

    .
    Long live Mary Wollstonecraft!
    .
    And Mary Shelley!
    .
    And Asma Jehangir!
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_Jahangir
    .
    Please do click on the link above and read about this remarkable woman and her work. Can you imagine what she faces, every single day? Now, let me tell you that it is people such as Asma Jehangir who are actually feminists and who risk their lives every day to help others strive for liberty and equality. Their actions represent – are – the truth of feminism. All over the world, Asma Jehangir and people like her – men and women – actually are doing not dissimilar work to what Craig was trying to do in Uzbekistan and since. Furthermore, given that modern war targets primarily women and children – as a deliberate strategy, both through organised, systemic rape undertaken by multiple armies and through ‘softening-up’ by repeated sniping at, say, women going to fetch water, when we campaign against war, we are campaigning to save the lives of women and children. Think about that. It’s not about columnists in newspapers or the dead-hand autocracy of managerialism. Feminism: It’s about blood and guts, life and death.

  24. The Guardian manage to combine war propaganda and male chauvinism here.
    .
    Libya fighting puts Misrata’s nurses on hospital frontline – in pictures
    .
    Female medical staff, normally subordinate to men in the clinical pecking order, are taking lead roles in treating the wounded – and in the process, quietly waging a war to keep their newfound equality after the conflict ends
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2011/jul/28/misrata-nurses-in-pictures#/?picture=377352993&index=0
    ~~~~~~
    Incidentally the rabble rebels have executed their military chief. Or so the BBC said earlier quoting Reuters. They are now saying that Gaddafi was responsible but there is a very mixed message in this sshort report.
    .
    Libyan rebel commander Abdel Fattah Younes killed
    Abdel Fattah Younes defected in February
    .
    The military commander of the Libyan rebels fighting to topple Col Muammar Gaddafi has been killed, the rebel Transitional National Council says.

    TNC head Mustafa Abdul-Jalil said Gen Abdel Fattah Younes had been killed by pro-Gaddafi assailants.

    He did not explain the exact circumstances, but said Gen Younes had been summoned for questioning about military operations.

    Reports said Gen Younes was suspected of ties to pro-Gaddafi forces.

    Gen Younes is a former Libyan interior minister who defected to the rebel side in February.

  25. I can’t let Jimmy’s point about the “high levels” of false rape claims go without my linking to a previous discussion in which I expressed surprise at his figure of 94%. My figures from a quick web-search indicated levels between 3-8%. There is plenty more of interest in the debate but alas it was left unresolved:
    .
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/07/dsk-and-the-rush-to-judgement/#comment-313339
    .
    Happy to restart the discussion if you like though, Jimmy!

  26. Finally, of that video you posted Jimmy. (For everyone: it’s a clip of a US talkshow where five women discuss a news story in which a wife had severed her husband’s penis.) I agree it is galling to see people laughing about a serious assault, and there is definitely a double-standard at play. But to her credit, one lady at the end says that no-one would be laughing if the man cut off his wife’s breast.
    .
    There is a casual misandry at play here, and it is probably a reflection of the media-lite version of women’s rights, and perhaps also a silly part of a backlash against the persistence of male dominance.
    .
    That all said, I wouldn’t take this clip too seriously. I mean, it has bloody Sharon Osborne on it – who is previously on record as crapping in a box and sending it to someone she didn’t like. Why on earth do they invite her to anything these days? So, it’s not exactly a serious treatment of the topic. In any case, we’ve all laughed at things that are horrific, and that doesn’t make us bad people. We sometimes laugh at things that are so distant that they don’t matter to us, even though to the people concerned they’re horrific.
    .
    I know for damn sure that if I sustained such an injury, none of the women I know would have a laugh about it. I should think that would go for most women, in fact – which means that the video doesn’t at all set out what the original poster presumably wanted to prove, which was that all women are cruel and misandrist.

  27. What am I so angry about? The last bit. The fact that the establishment can use sexual allegations against any man they find dangerous, and like a dog whistle the feminists will come piling in to join in burying that person – be they DSK, Sheridan, Assange or – yes I am sore about it – me. The Murdoch press could even whip them up against the most liberal Justice Secretary since Roy Jenkins, Kenneth Clarke – who is a very decent man indeed.

    Feminism in terms of promotion of equality and of full rights, equal pay, etc I am entirely in favour. Sex negative feminism I am not.

    I would like to see 100% of actual rapists convicted, but not at the expense of convicting lots of innocent people. It is unfortunately an extremely difficult crime to prove, and always will be.

    As for it being OK to lie to get out of a hell hole – I understand the motive for saying it, but it is not right. The truth is better because lies really are corrosive of the system. The poor people administering the asylum system hear so many lies it is hard to get a hearing for the truth.

    One of the strange things about this is that Guinea Conakry is not actually a hell hole. I honestly can’t think of any real reason why Fulanis would need political asylum from Conakry at all.

  28. According to Islamic law sexual allegations have to be supported by four witnesses who under oath confirm seeing actual sexual act, i.e. male’s p…s inside genital of a female. Hmm, interesting, must be hard to prove and therefore accuse smn in sexism.

  29. I guess we have to face up to the fact that Craig Murray is a misogynist.

  30. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. :-(

  31. Eddie Truman,

    Explain where the misogyny lies.

  32. Scouse Billy

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:00 am

    I guess we have to face up to the fact that Eddie Truman is a gender feminist proxy.
    .
    Meanwhile Andrew McKillop at Market Oracle has written a Keiser-esque piece, The End of the False Flag Wars.
    .
    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article29544.html

  33. After a bit of googling, I see we have to face up to the fact that the right-on Zoe Williams is an untalented wealthy lefty-because-it’s-fashionable who went to expensive private school then Oxford and who uses private medicine http://liberalengland.blogspot.com/2009/03/zoe-williams-goes-private.html
    and who spends her time polishing her own wikipedia entry
    http://www.septicisle.info/2007/03/zoe-williams-watch-those-wikipedia.html

  34. Madam Miaow

    On the precise translation of the conversation with her boyfriend in jail, i really don’t know. But I am confused by the description of fulani as an obscure language – it isn’t at all.

  35. Scouse Billy

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:26 am

    Thank you, Craig – that septicisle link had me in stitches.
    .
    Busy little beaver, indeed ;)
    .
    P.S. If you care about privacy, instead of google try:
    .
    http://s1-eu.startingpage.com
    .
    It doesn’t record your ip and you have the option of viewing sites via a proxy.

  36. “I honestly can’t think of any real reason why Fulanis would need political asylum from Conakry at all.”
    .
    Perhaps because she (Nafissatou Diallo) suffered FGM and wanted to save her daughter from it. Perhaps because her husband was dead and she was not in control of her own fate as a widow with a young daughter. Do you know that she didn’t need political asylum? Or are you just guessing?
    .
    “But I am confused by the description of fulani as an obscure language – it isn’t at all.”
    .
    But you’re not suggesting that New York is littered with fulani translators, presumably.
    This is a very unpleasant thread. I’m not surprised that Technicolour left.

  37. “The Murdoch press could even whip them up against the most liberal Justice Secretary since Roy Jenkins, Kenneth Clarke – who is a very decent man indeed.”
    .
    Except in this case it was the Murdoch New York Post that accused this woman of being a prostitute. Which is the reason she is suing them and the reason she has waived anonymity and is giving interviews now. Oddly enough, Craig already suggested she was a prostitute when he said some time back (in response to someone asking “why would she agree to have have sex with DSK?”) and he replied “$300″ or “$300 is my guess”.
    .
    “The fact that the establishment can use sexual allegations against any man they find dangerous”
    .
    Sounds like you have already made up your mind about who’s guilty in this case. And it’s not DSK.
    Me, I’m waiting to see if there’s a trial.

  38. It’s regrettable that Zoe Williams made ill-considered comments in her article that have infuriated Craig – to make some ill-considered comments. It doesn’t matter what the alleged victim may or may not have done, if she has been harmed then the fact that the assailant is a member of the elite is also beside the point – in theory. In reality, there is one law for them and another one for us. Just look at the expenses scandal. Ordinary people, confused by the complexities of the benefits system, could receive money that they are not entitled to. Once caught, try saying that it was an unfortunate error and just pay the money back. Even in the unlikely event that they were able to scrape the refund together, the likelihood is that they would still be prosecuted.

    Very little effort was made to find enough evidence of wrong doing to prosecute many MPs. In fact, for the previous Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, to claim that her main home was her sister’s spare bedroom is laughable.

    There may be conspiracies involved in DSK’s or Assange’s cases and the fact that once accused it’s hard to recover one’s reputation if the charge is false and malicious is unjust. If the DSK case has been brought to discredit him, and he is exonerated, then the accuser will deserve to be prosecuted for her false accusation. However, it is a high profile case and it does seem that the legal process is being undermined by the media.

    As for misandry and other reverse bigotry towards men by women, in a democracy where 50% of the electorate are male it does seem unfair that there is a disproportionate number of men in high office or in top jobs. I think the world would be a better place if more women were in these positions.

  39. Jon wrote: “I agree it is galling to see people laughing about a serious assault, and there is definitely a double-standard at play. But to her credit, one lady at the end says that no-one would be laughing if the man cut off his wife’s breast.”
    .
    Actually, she ‘questions’ the morality; failing to see the obvious, her feeble challenge is unanimously rejected with further derisive laughter, of which she follows suit. So no credit there.
    .
    Jon wrote: “There is a casual misandry at play here, and it is probably a reflection of the media-lite version of women’s rights, and perhaps also a silly part of a backlash against the persistence of male dominance.”
    .
    That’s like saying: The Zionists demonstrate a ‘silly backlash’ to the persistent memory of the holocaust to their forefathers, with casual ethnic cleansing. Either they are right, or they are wrong. And your downplaying of the revelation of misandry, is either equivocation, or moral cowardice.
    .
    Jon wrote: “That all said, I wouldn’t take this clip too seriously. I mean, it has bloody Sharon Osborne on it – who is previously on record as crapping in a box and sending it to someone she didn’t like. Why on earth do they invite her to anything these days?”
    .
    Why on earth? Because she is a deranged feminist, and that’s popular with women infected with Marxist-Feminism. If it weren’t, she wouldn’t be invited, as she has no other ‘virtues’.
    .
    Jon wrote: “So, it’s not exactly a serious treatment of the topic. In any case, we’ve all laughed at things that are horrific, and that doesn’t make us bad people. We sometimes laugh at things that are so distant that they don’t matter to us, even though to the people concerned they’re horrific.”
    .
    Remind me what happened to the careers of Richard Keys and Andy Gray? Did you hear about Jethro coming home from the pub along the railway line? He found a woman tied to the rails; took her home, and made passionate love to her all night long. When asked by the incredulous barman the following night, whether he got a blow-job; Jethro replied: “No… I couldn’t find her head!”
    .
    Jon wrote: “I know for damn sure that if I sustained such an injury, none of the women I know would have a laugh about it. I should think that would go for most women, in fact – which means that the video doesn’t at all set out what the original poster presumably wanted to prove, which was that all women are cruel and misandrist.”
    .
    You should get out more often from your mother’s boudoir. Do you think CBS advertise to their respective audiences: “Only fucked up misandric cunts need apply, normal women stay away please.”?

  40. YugoStiglitz

    29 Jul, 2011 - 7:44 am

    Damn you, Craig Murray, for making me agree with dreoilin.

  41. Is there a Mr Zoe Williams?

  42. ‘And to smear the word ‘feminist’ with this kind of language is wrong on another level’

    No it isn’t Technicolour.It is quite clear from the links Craig gives that expensively educated Zoe Williams isn’t brain-dead. However the article extruded by Williams onto the pages of the Grauniad (and which prompted our host to blow a gasket) is sloppy, ill-informed and reeking of malice. What therefore possessed Ms Williams to produce such guff ? Her self declared feminism by any chance ?

  43. Dreoilin,

    But we know a bit about what she said on her asylum application and there is no evidence at all that it related to FGM. FGM is much more common in East Africa, and North Africa, than in West Africa. Fulani is spoken right across the savannah belt of sub-Sahelian Africa, by many millions of people – it is a huge language group. There are, indeed, plenty of perfectly adequate Fulani translators in the United States.

    The Fulani are not a persecuted group in Guinea Conakry – if anything the reverse. But as someone who has lived and worked much of his life in Africa, I was objecting to the trite description of it as a hell-hole. That is not applicable to Guinea-Conakry at all.

  44. I asked if she has a partner because her Wikipedia entry says …’where she wrote columns on a variety of subjects, and a diary about being a single woman in London’ yet in 2009 she writes that she is pregnant again and ‘went home and said to C, “Do you think I’ve put on weight?” He eyed me suspiciously. It is unlike me to ask him a question so direct, but it is not unusual for me to ask a question to which there is no correct answer, and then get incredibly angry. (Last time I was pregnant, I said: “Do you think men find obese women unattractive as a biological prophylactic against the time-waste of shagging someone who’s already pregnant?”)’
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/mar/13/anti-natal-zoe-williams
    .
    If she is such a master at editing Wikipedia, you would think she would update the entry which is skimpy anyway.
    .
    Incidentally I don’t think her writing which is mostly opinion adds much to the fount of knowledge.

  45. We can do without the crude jokes from Jimmy Giro.

  46. The link to Liberal England, highlighting Ms William’s decision to go private when she was up the duff, is interesting.
    Her wikipedia entry says she lives in ‘Camberwell, South London’. This means that, had she used NHS ante natal care then, she would have entered an environment where both the midwives and the mums to be would have been, overwhelmingly, black.
    Is Ms Williams’ incoherent defence of Ms Diallo her way of repressing her unacknowledged racism ?
    I think we should be told.

  47. “We can do without the crude jokes from Jimmy Giro.”
    .
    Nope… couldn’t find her funny bone.

  48. Have read Zoe article, she is not my favourite Grauniad journalist, I have come away with the thought ‘sour puss’ in my mind, but I would not call it ugly souled feminismn, there are some far more testi harpie’s about who even turn woman off with some of the bile they write.

    Although I have not had Craigs experience of being hounded by the media with sexual connotatiopns of a personal nature, bliss, I still find this post distatefull and arbitrary, because its a moving case still going on. If I was french, this man would not get my cross, regardless of how many Rothchilds he knows or schoozes with. And if one was a high powered, apparently lechering man in his position and standing, I would not make out with Ms. Diallo, however desperate i felt. If there is anything behind his behaviour, the rumours of other woman, too late but still valid imho, and if he regards chamber maids as ‘vogelfrwei’, as long as one leave a few hundred dollars, then I hope he gets hammered for it.

    I love woman for all their differences and as they come, for all their attributes, good or bad, I would not want to be without them, but I do not regard myself as a feminst, we are different and thats fine with moire. Inequalities still exist and it is picked up by those who can afford to pick at it, who are not dependent on their jobs for a living, don’t have to stoop to please the boss, the Zoe Williams of this world.

    I think this is the most unfortunate piece you wrote Craig, It is not the issue of overbearing feminsismn but the choice of words you use to express some of their tedious bandwaggoning, that has turned me off.

    leaves one point to make. What will you write, after this premature ejacu-provocative post, if DSK is found guilty to a certain degree, if a french challenge and court case shatters his obscure pseudo presidential purity, and when feminsit turn on you in droves?

  49. So if you go to a minor public school and Oxford and use private medicine this damns you and your argument but if you go to grammar school and Durham this simply reinforces your right to slur feminists and feminism? Where was Strauss-Kahn educated? Do you think he uses private medicine? Do I hear the sound of a barrel being scraped?

    One can try and qualify this attack on feminism as much as one likes but ‘sex negative feminism’ is not feminism, it is misandry. A perfectly good word and far less clumsy, so why use the word ‘feminism’ at all?

  50. Jimmy:
    .
    You’re harping on about Nazism again, which is not in the same league at all, and demeans your position. I think I can invoke Godwin’s law and claim my five pounds from you!
    .
    Like your New Labour examples, you choose a woman you don’t like, call her a feminist, and use this ‘evidence’ to demonstrate how odious all feminists are. It’s an incredibly flimsy approach partly because you choose women who aren’t feminists, and you then go on to assume that all feminists are the same! Sharon Osbourne is not a feminist in the sense that Naomi Klein is, or Germaine Greer, or the examples that Suhayl gave. Osbourne is loud and shouty, but her traits are overwhelmingly masculine – and I should be most surprised if she has a history of fighting for women’s rights, or a demonstrable history of feminist political thought.
    .
    I am guessing: I think she is invited onto talk shows because she is loud and shouty. She also has an interesting and colourful rock’n’roll history, and so is presumably has plenty of good material for a empty-headed sleb-obsessed audience. Feminist indeed…
    .
    > Remind me what happened to the careers of Richard Keys and Andy Gray?
    .
    Glad you raised it. I forget which one is which, but one of them made some sexist remarks that were caught on a non-live camera – “did you smash it” in reference to a girl they were discussing. In normal circumstances he would probably have received a written warning from his employer, but there were other factors at play. Partly they are in the public eye, and so the broadcaster wants to be seen to be “doing the right thing”, even if it is an over-reaction. But also, I believe one of them was suing News International for (allegedly) hacking his phone, so it is possible he was pushed out of spite.
    .
    Anyway, not sure what you wanted to prove out of that saga. I don’t think there is much mileage in claiming it is a Marxist-Feminist plot to rid the world of football commentators! Equally I am not sure how your necrophilia joke is relevant, but whatever. Mildly amusing, but don’t give up the day-job.
    .
    > You should get out more often from your mother’s boudoir.
    .
    I wonder whether you are sometimes offensive to people in order to push people away from the discussion and win by default (as I sometimes suspect with one other commentator here). But since I think you’re a bit obsessed, I find it hard to take offence at this at all. As has been mentioned by other folks here, your attitude to people who want to engage with your ideas is sneering and condescending, and doesn’t do your views any credit whatsoever.
    .
    Do I think CBS specifically want misandrist women on their talk-shows? No, I don’t. As I say, I think the clip is illustrative of a media-lite version of women’s rights, which mocks men as evidence of female power, when of course the path of true political and professional equality has a seriously long way to go. I think there is a great deal more hate in evidence in the scroll-text before and after the clip, which appears to have been added onto the video by someone who hates women a great deal.
    .
    Anyway, I don’t think you answered my last part well at all. Put another way, if you sustained a serious physical injury at the hands of a woman, do you think that all the women you know would sit around laughing about it? I am pretty certain this is unlikely!

  51. Jon wrote: “if you sustained a serious physical injury at the hands of a woman, do you think that all the women you know would sit around laughing about it? I am pretty certain this is unlikely!”
    .
    No I don’t. Because ‘all the women you know’ are voting selfishly, with familiarity, to ingratiate themselves with you; whereas all the women infected with Marxist-Feminism, ‘that you know’, vote for policy that is misandric to all men.
    .
    Think how Ozzy Osbourne feels when seeing his wife deliver such misandry? No wonder he permanently bombed; probably on the advice of his divorce lawyer.

  52. de Quincy's Ghost

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:56 pm

    This is, perhaps, the downside to an adversarial justice system ? The two teams cherrypick their favourite facts, and it becomes hard to see that we have any choice except to line up behind one story or the other depending on which of our buttons they push.

  53. I agree that the misandry on the clip would make any of the women’s husbands feel like an outsider. I’d certainly offer a piece of my mind, though I don’t think the attitudes you’ve witnessed are grounds for divorce.
    .
    But your main response leaves me baffled, I’m afraid, though I would like to understand what you mean. I don’t understand the purpose of the quotes around ‘all the women you know’ either. In what way are the women I know, or the women you know, voting selfishly? Do you think that 99% of women would not be horrified if they heard that a man they knew personally sustained a serious injury at the hands of a woman?

  54. I should be interested in a response to the Keys/Gray issue as well, Jimmy. I suspect you didn’t know about the hacking angle – that one is courtesy of Private Eye. It’s fine if you hadn’t heard about it, but you may wish to rethink that particular part of your argument, given the new facts to hand (as I hope I’d do, if you were to supply pertinent new facts).

  55. Just thought, Craig Murray, but can you ever debate the issue of feminism without referring to personalised and awful language like “ugly-souled feminists”?

    When it comes to rape allegation it’s not about getting to the truth or looking at the evidence it’s about rendering the woman powerless and destroying her credibility.

    And thats what you fail to understand as you’re clouded by your own chauvinism and misogyny to think clearly about this without throwing personalised and apolitical insults at women who dare question the way rape victims are treated and when the accused happens to be someone who is worshipped as some great progressive dude. And these progressives can do no wrong, can they?!

  56. HarpyMarx,

    Yes I can, if I want to, but I find the occasional bit of meaningless abuse hurled at your target helps to grab their attention. With the serenely self-righteous you have to shock them into listening.

    But sometimes it is getting to the truth which does damage the woman’s crdibility – that is the problem with the Diallo case.

  57. Jon wrote: “Glad you raised it. I forget which one is which, but one of them made some sexist remarks that were caught on a non-live camera – “did you smash it” in reference to a girl they were discussing. In normal circumstances he would probably have received a written warning from his employer, but there were other factors at play. Partly they are in the public eye, and so the broadcaster wants to be seen to be “doing the right thing”, even if it is an over-reaction. But also, I believe one of them was suing News International for (allegedly) hacking his phone, so it is possible he was pushed out of spite.”
    .
    I didn’t know that, but then many of the M-Fs baying for their heads wouldn’t have known, or cared, about that detail either.
    .
    The point of the comparison should be obvious, their faux pas was deemed excessive, with demands of their sacking; whereas Sharon Osbourne’s ghoulish display, along with all the other ‘women’ on the show panel and audience, warranted not a fillip.
    .
    In Nazi Germany, they made the Jews non-citizens, before they persecuted them.

  58. Well, I’ve acknowledged there is a double standard, but I don’t think that particular case is as important as you want it to be. Would still like to hear a straight answer to my much more important question.
    .
    Still unimpressed with the Nazi comparisons, which are just silly. If I got my fiver for each time, I could make a fortune out of you!

  59. Jon wrote: “Do you think that 99% of women would not be horrified if they heard that a man they knew personally sustained a serious injury at the hands of a woman?”
    .
    Clearly the CBS clip showed exactly that, a straight consensus of glee at the thought of male mutilation.
    .
    You do not want to recognise this fact, and the women in your life are quite happy to ingratiate themselves to you by indulging you with your delusion that they are made of sugar and spice and all things not misandric. It is this quality of pretending to be humane for the sake of placating the men in their lives, which makes Marxist-Feminism an act of betrayal of all the good things we used to regard as womanly; indeed it is the betrayal of heterosexual love itself.

  60. “Damn you, Craig Murray, for making me agree with dreoilin.” Yugostiglitz.
    .
    This calls for a mariachi band in Mason, Ohio!

  61. Thanks Jimmy; I think I am getting towards a greater understanding of your position.
    .
    I don’t think I’ve ever given the impression that I believe all women are “made of sugar and spice”. I’ve met some lovely ones, some quite spiteful ones, some charming ones, and some violent. A mix, really, just like the variety of men that I have met!
    .
    > [T]he women in your life are quite happy to ingratiate themselves to you by
    > indulging you with your delusion that they are made of sugar and spice and all things
    > not misandric
    .
    Right, so all the women I know are misandrist, and are simply “placating all men” or “pretending to be humane”. Here’s a reasonable extrapolation, since you don’t know me or the women I know: for every man, all women they know are misandrist. This is a long-hand way of saying that all women hate men, which is patent nonsense.
    .
    Have I made an error of logic, or is that really your view?

  62. > This calls for a mariachi band in Mason, Ohio!
    .
    I think it calls for a cuppa tea as well, as the band strikes up! We should savour the moment. Put the kettle on, would you Suhayl? :)

  63. What on earth has Karl Marx got to do with this? He had a long beard, wore dark suits and lived in the C19th. He wrote an – possibly, the – critique of capitalism.
    .
    You just don’t like women, Jimmy, that’s it, isn’t it? You simply do not like women.
    .
    And so, you conflate all your normative absolute dislikes, associate them with other words which you know will provoke a negative reaction in most people, and then draw hyphens between them. You’re posts are a little like potted Benetton adverts. Hence the wondrous neologism of, ‘Marxist Femi-Nazi’ or ‘Femi-Marxi-Nazist’, or ‘Nazi-Marxo-Lennino-Femmy’, or just plain old ‘Damn Bloody Woman’!
    .
    Lilith is looking for you, Jimmy, she is crawling towards you. Perhaps she will find you in your dreams…

  64. I shall type this slowly Suhayl Saadi, so that your mangina mind won’t be left holding its redundant dick:
    .
    I love women, which is why I hate feminists.

  65. Yes, I wonder what it is about feminism that prompts (some) opponents to use the Marxist prefix? (Side note, I thought the acronym M-Fs was unfortunate, since I originally read that as Mother F*ckers! Perhaps I should lay off reading Freud and/or watching Tarantino movies.)
    .
    Are all feminists of the “objectionable” necessarily anti-capitalist as well? If a feminist is not Marxist, is he/she a good feminist, even if he/she is misandrist? This is a minefield of complexity!

  66. “Are all feminists of the “objectionable” necessarily anti-capitalist as well? If a feminist is not Marxist, is he/she a good feminist, even if he/she is misandrist? This is a minefield of complexity!”
    .
    Only if you allow your equivocations to dominate your mind. So focus on what is real, and if your understanding cannot comprehend the reality, then you must change.
    .
    Fact: One million boys on Ritalin in Marxist-Feminist controlled state schools.
    .
    Fact: The CBS show, showing the unanimous misandric glee, of the news of an innocent husband being drugged and then mutilated by his wife; because he asked for a divorce.

  67. No mariachi bands in Mason Suhayl unless there are musicians with the right skill in the 0.97% of the population which is
    31,000. Possible I suppose. It is one of the 100 top places in the USA in which to live. Wikipedia.
    .
    The racial makeup of the city was 94.79% White, 1.61% African American, 0.19% Native American, 2.18% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.30% from other races, and 0.93% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.97% of the population.

  68. > This calls for a mariachi band in Mason, Ohio!
    .
    >I think it calls for a cuppa tea as well, as the band strikes up! We should savour the moment. Put the kettle on, would you Suhayl?
    .
    Laughing here … I had no idea this topic was still covering two threads, so I missed a lot. There will be a huge blue moon tonight, if YugoStiglitz is agreeing with me about anything.
    I’m off to read my book about a cross-dressing murdering hairdresser, which is utterly mad but vaguely entertaining. And quite relaxing.
    .
    @Jimmy, thanks for the book recommendation on the other thread.

  69. Jimmy – you weren’t meant to take those questions seriously ;)
    .
    But the crux of your position can, I think, be summarised by responding to my logical conclusion. I think I’ve used very solid logic to assert that you believe all women to be misandrists. I should be thrilled to get a direct answer to that, since we are very close.
    .
    As for Ritalin, yes, that is a concern, and we discussed that at length elsewhere. As Dr. Suhayl has said, females are primary targets for other kinds of drugs – mainly anti-depressants I think. Both are instances of capitalism at work – sell the maximum number of drugs, regardless of the validity of the prescription, to maximise profit. Hence the Ritalin example doesn’t show that the system is biased against boys, nor that any schools are in the clutches of feminists.
    .
    Again, I don’t see the video clip in the black-and-white terms that you do. The show is illustrative of a gender double-standard, sure, but it was a silly piece that doesn’t really signify much. Your standard of evidence is too low, I think. Women overwhelmingly would be horrified at the forcible castration of someone they knew; the talking heads’ distance enables them to laugh, just in the same way as the people who are telling Amy Winehouse jokes at the moment.
    .
    So, as to whether all women are misandrist. It’s an important point, I think.

  70. So kind of you, Jimmy.
    .
    But you haven’t explained how this all relates to Karl Marx, the C19th man with a long beard and an effective critique of capitalism.
    .
    Please could you explain, in terms of Marxist Theory, precisely how Karl Marx is associated with all this. Also, please could you explain, in terms of Marxist Theory, precisely how Karl Marx is associated with ‘DSK’ in what is surely, the very capital of capitalism, NYC. I’d have thought that DSK is just the kind of sort-of-pinkish guy you claim to despise as ‘Marxist-[add preferred term of abuse, anything will do]’. Whereas one would have thought you’d love NYC/ Wall Street as the arch-enemy of Marxism.
    .
    So, we have a woman (and we know that you “love women”) accusing a ‘pinko Marxist-[add preferred term of abuse, anything will do] Frenchman’ is rape in the heart of the Big Apple… and yet you don’t like what that woman might represent because clearly she, too is a ‘Marxist-Femi-Nazi (a black one) Cleaner’. Hmn, what a dilemma. Whom does one hate more?
    .
    Please type slowly now and with your dominant hand, lest you over-exert yourself…

  71. Answer moved to the next thread… slowly.

  72. Peter Freemantle

    5 Aug, 2011 - 7:10 am

    Zoe Williams recently wrote a thoroughly unpleasant article in which she rubbished an animal charity which looks after abandoned cats and dogs…because she felt that the animals were treated too well.

    This woman is a nasty piece of work.

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