Thoughts on Feminism

by craig on July 29, 2011 9:57 am in Uncategorized

This is not a blog you should come to, if you want to encounter a neatly packaged bunch of received political ideas that conform to any convenient label. If you can only stand views that do not offend the “right” or the “left”, or which stay within the confines of the “politically correct”, then go read elsewhere.

Recently I have taken on the shibboleths of ultra feminism, in response to a series of articles published in the Guardian by feminist writers on the Assange and DSK cases, and on Kenneth Clarke’s remarks on rape. The writers in question – including for example Eve Ensler and Zoe Williams – self-describe as feminist writers. I am not applying the description to them.

My views on these matters plainly cross what is viewed as a boundary of acceptable or conventional thought for some of my regular commentators. It is therefore sensible of me to set out those views in a logical form here, so we can identify areas of agreement and disagreement, and try to consider with each other whether any of us wish to reconsider our views.

First, on feminism in general. I recognise that there is a power imbalance in society to the detriment of women. The glass ceiling still is firmly in place. Alpha male behaviour is still overly rewarded by the cutthroat system on which our political economy is organised, to general detriment. We really do have a society where male sociopaths dominate; Tony Blair is its poster boy.

I think that palliative measures on female equality, for example on equal pay, have been a good and important thing. But they have not even achieved their limited objective, nor succesfully tackled the difficulties of women in achieving power and promotion. I do not believe, in any sense, that women’s lack of power in society is because they should rightly be concentrating on subsidiary roles, either as homemakers or in the workforce.

But I believe that palliative measures have done pretty well all they can to improve this situation, and that no fundamental change is possible unless we reform our society itself to one which operates on a more cooperative model and in which consumption, wealth and waste of resources are not the primary goals. Then aggression and selfishness will not be rewarded as they now are.

I do believe that there are differing masculine and feminine personality traits, and that it is true that cooperative and empathectic behaviour is viewed as more feminine. But there is of course massive overlap within male and female populations, and there are many men who are also disadvantaged within the present system by their more societal attitude – just as there are female Rebekah Brooks (Update I can see I am going to have to keep doing this as it is very difficult to reason with feminist ideologues. In response to a comment, I am plainly putting forward Rebekah Brooks here as the female equivalnet of Tony Blair who I cite above, the ultra-succesful sociopath. I am not saying that all career women are like Rebekah Brooks.)- but a balance of disadvantage lies currently with women.

But- when it comes to sexuality itself, I think that sexuality is a wonderful fact of existence, which should be celebrated in full. I applaud any form of pleasure giving cooperation, that does not harm others, between consenting adults. But I do not regard sex as in any way sacred or mystic.

I believe that sexuality is just another human trait which people should be able to use, if they so choose, for economic gain, just as they can use their muscles or intellect in other ways. I therefore have no problem with prostitution, striptease, or advertising images. The coercion and violence which often accompanies prostitution could largely be remedied (as with drugs) by legalisation and regulation. If people wish to sell their sexuality, I believe they have a right to do so.

Nobody should ever be forced to.

Rape is a terrible crime. I believe that it should receive a very long jail sentence indeed. My view is that custodial sentences – as opposed to other punishment – should be reserved only for those who are a danger of committing violence to others. Non-violent crime should be punished in other ways. Rape is a violent crime and society should rightly be protected from rapists by long jail sentences. However, Kenneth Clarke was right; every crime can have aggravating or mitigating circumstances, even murder. There is nothing sacramental about rape that makes it different to murder and mystically unified, incapable of being worsened by use of a weapon, death threats, duration of offence etc.

For some feminists rape is not just a disgusting and violent crime, but a totemic act, indicative of wider male domination of women in society. There is some correlation (though not absolute) between this view, and sex-negative feminism, which views the act of penetration itself as an act of male dominance, and regards feminine heterosexuality as in itself tending to enforce a submissive role in society. This feminist tendency is completely opposed to the use of female sexuality by women for commercial gain, and thus virulently opposed to prostitution, stripping, advertising images, etc.

These sex-negative feminists have what I would call a dog-whistle response to allegations of rape, tending to an immediate presumption that the man must be guilty – this blog has previously pointed to a number of such articles on both Julian Assange and DSK, of which yesterday’s really badly researched article by Liz Willams can stand as an example – in which they are undoubtedly arguing that the man is guilty. They also argue for a lower standard of proof in rape trials than other criminal trials.

I have an extreme aversion to this line of argument. It is extremely unfortunate that rape will always be, in most cases, a hard crime to prove, for reasons which are obvious. But plainly false allegations of rape do exist, and the evil of false conviction is so great we have to continue to give the benefit of doubt to the defendant. If that principle disappeared in rape trials, other categories would soon follow.

The political establishment frequently uses sexual allegations against threatening dissidents to discredit them. That was done against me, it is what was done by Murdoch to Tommy Sheridan, it is being done against Julian Assange, and there is strong reason to believe it may be what is being done against DSK. Here are some facts I did not refer to yesterday.

The suite which Diallo entered after the alleged rape was empty and adjoined DSK’s suite, with a party wall. She had entered it twice with her electronic keycard before going to DSK’s suite, and she entered it again after the alleged rape. She had consistently lied about what she did after the alleged rape, and only admitted she had entered the adjoining suite after shown the electronic keycard record. She then changed her story to say she had returned and cleaned it – which begs the question, what had she done in there the previous two times?

This is important because the keycard records show that the hotel general manager himself had entered, rather surprisingly, that same adjoining suite that morning, before the alleged rape. As the records do not show when someone left, we do not know if he met her in there, or if he was in there during the consensual or forced sexual encounter next door. What we do know is that he telephoned the Elysee Palace before the alleged rape was reported to the police, and briefed Sarkozy’s aides.

Why I get so completely infuriated with the Enslers and Williams of this world is that they don’t stop to think why Assange or DSK or Sheridan might suddenly find themselves exposed to this kind of attack. Has the far left just gained in the Scottish Parliament its most important electoral positions in the UK for decades? Is Wikileaks threatening the whole edifice of US official secrecy, illegal killing and duplicitous foreign policy? Is the IMF being steered gently leftwards at a time of huge currency crises for the West?

The ultra, sex negative feminists cannot even start to consider that they ought perhaps to consider if there is a wider context. If the accusation is sexual then they automatically obey the dog whistle.. Of course the woman is telling the truth! And they fill the columns and airwaves to the delight of the right extablishment, whose obedient attack dogs the ultra feminists have become.

That is, of course, why the allegations are always sexual. They do so much more damage, in so many ways. The strange thing is, that if DSK or Assange had been accused of anything else, like robbing a Post Office (remember Peter Hain?), people like HarpyMarx would be extremely suspicious. But throw in a bit of sex, and the stupid idiots dance immediately to the right’s tune.

153 Comments

  1. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:18 am

    The first thing to distinguish is the inherent difference between the terms ‘women’ and feminists. The left are incapable of this distinction, just as the Nazis were incapable of distinguishing themselves from Germans.
    .
    The next thing to realise, is that evolution is smarter than the ‘left’; therefore, any attempt to politically change the human condition, will probably be detrimental. So feminists, keep your hands off our women and children!

  2. Tigger

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:21 am

    I used to climb trees as a child. I did “boys” subjects at school and university. I worked in the City in a role few women did. I like doing woodwork. I’m numerate, logical, scientific…

    And I take immense exception to being compared to a sociopath like Rebekah Brooks!

    (In fact, I’m sure some would argue that throwaway comment says something about how you “really” think women should be feminine girlies even if many, many are not that way naturally – which is, of course, a deeply oppressive view in itself.)

    By the way, you don’t have to be an ultra sex-negative feminist to think Assange has a lot of questions to answer!

  3. enki

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:23 am

    Your entire post is built on a faulty premise. You are assuming that those who have abandoned their commitments to rationality and justice in favour of an ideology can be engaged in meaningful discussion. You will be harangued and vilified until you submit to their worldview.

  4. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:30 am

    Good point Enki,
    .
    Being reasonable to the ‘statists’ is pissing in the wind. Or as Karl Popper more eloquently put it:
    .
    “If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

  5. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:36 am

    Tigger,

    I am quite positive that Rebekah Brooks was not the woodwork and tree climbing tupe, so don’t worry!

  6. ingo

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:43 am

    I agree with Enki and with Tiggers point on Julian Assange. If he had consensus sex, he must have had an arrangement about condoms, he is an intelligent, albeit computer damaged, soul who has spent his time in front of a screen for too long one could assume. To have an illusion of grandeur and no care in the world when one is having sex with a ‘consensual’ female partner, is something he will have to answer for, now that he has made this his defense.

    In no way does this detract from the swedish prosecutors mistakes, or devalue other points about the validity of his wikileaks operation, as it is he is just another man amongst many who can’t overule his peckerdillo’s with his brain.

  7. mary

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:44 am

    Did you mean to say Zoe Williams?

  8. conjunction

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:47 am

    I am generaly in sympathy with the points you made in your piece about Zoey williams – her article was like so many Guardian opinion pieces completely lacking in rigour. It is also true that the feminist lobby can be destructive of reputations and careers and that political correctness is an Idol, in the old Testament sense, which sweeps away logic and proportion on occasion.
    -
    Whether this makes it as big a negative force as Murdoch and what he represents I doubt.

  9. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:50 am

    Mary,

    I did indeed. Corrected, with apologies to all the Liz Williams out there!!

  10. Yakoub Islam

    29 Jul, 2011 - 10:57 am

    In respect of male/female differences, the evidence points to gender difference being 99.999% cultural. I recommend R W Connell’s “Gender” (Polity, 2002). Connell discusses a major review of “gender difference” research, which he/she* describes as a misnoma. Where psychological differences exist between men and women, they pale into insignificance when compared to the scope of difference within gender. Connell also analyses why this evidence is still widely ignored.

    As for “sex negative feminists” – yes, they exist, if you want to call them that(see Alsop et al’s Theorizing Gender), but I would suggest they are a marginal force within feminism. Why fling this pejorative label at people you disagree with? The arguments should speak for themselves, so let’s step back from demonizing your opponents, or indeed those feminists who feel the oppression of patriarchy so intensely it compels them to respond in every aspect of their lives.

    * Connell was Robert when he wrote the book. She is now called Raewyn.

  11. John Goss

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:00 am

    That your views are challenging and controversial is one of the attractive features of your blog, Craig. When the Dominique Strauss-Kahn accusation was first reported I was suspicious, partly because he was MD of the IMF, and his removal made it convenient to replace him with someone more right wing; and partly because of the recent and ludicrous attempt to besmirch the character of Julian Assange, to whom the whole world is indebted.
    The progress of women is something everybody should welcome since they form at least half the population of the planet. But just as there are extreme men, Blair, Murdoch, Hitler there are women who are just as aggressive and nasty in their own ways, Thatcher for example. There are so many incompatibilities between the sexes it’s a wonder we ever reproduce. Men are at their sexual prime at about 18, women at about 35. Men are sexually ready most of the time while for women it is a few days a month. We enjoy different hobbies. But in general we try for each other’s sake to get along – and that means compromise.
    What bothers me is rudeness – whether that comes from those, male or female, who do not respond to communications or pull forward into the parking space you were about to reverse into. As a mature student from 1980-83 I caught the whip-end of women’s lib, and it was nasty. I had no opposition to women burning their bras (in fact it made a pleasant diversion) but when I held open a door for one young woman, (I did the same for men), I was gob-smacked by her remark. “Do you think I’m not capable of opening the door for myself!” This was one of the ultra sex negative feminists to which you allude.
    I am still of the opinion that women are just as competent as men, and I was back then. At Birmingham University Labour Party meetings I stood alone in opposing positive discrimination, that is, “We must have a majority of women on the committee” because of the equal competence of both sexes. It would have been much better if those who had been willing to serve had been appointed because in the end they were unable to get enough women involved, and I left the group. But I learnt then, and still believe, that women, in general, do not want to be involved in public affairs to the same extent as men. But when they do get involved they are just as open to corruption and bad practice, as Rebekah Brooks has shown. As you say rape is a difficult accusation to prove, and because it is only committed by one of the sexes, it gives the ultra sex negative feminists, as you call them, ammunition for their grievances.

  12. mary

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:04 am

    I just love Ingo’s spelling of peckerdillos. A kind of amalgam of a slang word for a penis with a Freudian reference to dildos?? Not getting at you Ingo,just amused.
    .
    The fault in this DSK business is the way in which the US legal system operates which allowed all these preliminaries to emerge and to get round the media thus allocating guilt to both sides. We would not be privy to any of it if the alleged rape had happened here. The facts would be left to a judge and jury to decide upon. Which is the better system?

  13. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:19 am

    Yakoub Islam,

    Thank you for a very reasoned contribution. I don’t think that it makes any difference to my general argument whether differences in masculine and feminine personality traits are genetically or environmentally acquired. We are where we are, and they exist. Except that, presumably if society were to be changed in the way I advocate, that might tend to reduce these differences over time if Ms Connell is correct.

    I rather like your description of “those feminists who feel the oppression of patriarchy so intensely it compels them to respond in every aspect of their lives.” The problem is, they are dangerously unbalanced individuals who do much harm. And my sympathy for them is limited because, like Ms Zoe Williams of the Guardian who went to a very expensive private school and uses private medicine, the vociferous column writers among them to whom I particularly object have been privileged to lead lives where they suffer a great deal less oppression – of all kinds – than the great majority of people in this life.

    One thing you probably do not know about me is that I really do spend a very great deal of my time working practically to help the oppressed, and there are a number of people in need of one kind of another living with us much of the time. There will be eight Central Asians sleeping here tonight, for example. Where I am sitting writing in my house was last week occupied by a victim of domestic violence and her children, escaping – who I had never met before. I do not normally publicise these things, but I am being made out to be a bad person because I have taken on the untouchable shibboleths of feminist ideology. The reason I want to say it now to you is that I have met women who really have suffered and who are, in some cases, bitter at all men, even me who is helping. I can of course make allowances. But I cannot characterise comfortable ideologues, wealthier than me and sharing less than me, as victims just because they are female.

  14. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:26 am

    John Goss wrote: “There are so many incompatibilities between the sexes it’s a wonder we ever reproduce.”
    .
    The reason gender equality is such a an unnatural and, paradoxically, divisive issue, is that men and women have evolved differently due to symbiosis. The genders are complementary, and not clones.
    .
    The sexual proclivities of the genders also aid and abet these necessary differences; women choose men’s characteristics in their selection, and men, likewise choose women’s characteristics in their selection; otherwise we’d all be androgynous.
    .
    It has been speculated that Homo Sapiens succeeded over the Neanderthals owing to the latter not having the advantage of gender disparity that the Sapiens had.
    .
    Either way, evolution is not wrong, therefore feminism is.

  15. Eddie-G

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:29 am

    The Ken Clarke rape furore was the tipping point for me, and reminded me of the response to the excellent Brass-eye satire on paedophilia. Because the topic is so emotively sensitive, the reaction generally missed entirely the point of what was in fact quite sensible, sometimes even banal, commentary.

    On the specifics of what you call ultra-feminism, I find the conflation of sexual violence and philandering really obscene. And the only lasting effect of doing this it seems, is that it will succeed in undermining the seriousness of the crime of rape.

    I applaud what you write about this topic, there’s stuff I’d be interested to debate (“differing masculine and feminine personality traits” – another nature vs nurture conundrum?), but in the end it seems to me you are protecting misguided women’s equality advocates from themselves.

  16. evgueni

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:41 am

    In my mind there is (unwarranted probably?) association between feminism and the silly toilet seat up/down argument :) I confess I have never paid much attention to the feminist cause. Of course, I believe that women should have the same opportunities as men so I suppose I share that conviction with all feminists.
    .
    But, I find the ‘equal opportunities must lead to equal outcomes’ line of argument simplistic and damaging. Why should this be the case? Surely, equality of outcomes must have as preconditions equality of desires and abilities. No one in their right mind will argue that men and women desire the same things in life. When I started my electronics engineering course, out of some 70 students there were 6 young women. In the final year, there were 2. I know this is anecdotal evidence, but this kind of anecdote is common. Boys and girls, women and men, in general find different things interesting and that will surely have an effect on the outcomes. Cultural programming cannot account for all of such differences.
    .
    And here is an inconvenient fact for the proponents of ‘equality of outcomes’ – human brain size: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_size . It is an accepted tenet of evolutionary biology that brain is an expensive resource. An average difference of some 10% between male and female brain size is not trivial. (Please refrain at this point from drawing rash conclusions about average intelligence – ‘intelligence’ is not uncontroversially and easily quantifiable). However, it does limit the scope of any claims of ‘by default’ mental equivalence between the sexes.

  17. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:52 am

    Evgeni

    The difference in brain size between male and female relates simply to the difference in overall body size. But there is no evidence to correlate that to a real difference in capability.

    One of the frontal lobes (left, I think) of my brain was killed off when I fell from a substantial height onto tarmac as a toddler. I have less volume of working brain than I ought. I agree that IQ is a controversial thing – all it measures is your ability to take IQ tests – but I last had mine measured at 187 (while at university, part of a psychology course). A bit more or less brain is not really that important.

  18. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:58 am

    Indeed Evgueni, not only are the brains different in size, but also in structure. The man’s amygdala is significantly larger than a woman’s. Men have more grey cells, and women have more white cells (the connective tissue of the corpus callosum etc).
    .
    Men are hunters and warriors from ancestry; therefore have better skills for this, such as the dynamic empathy necessary for team assaults, and tactical reactions.
    .
    Women have to forage greedily between each other, and yet provide generously amongst their own. This maybe why their heightened sympathies are exaggerated. The corpus callosum is a nifty way of separating these seemingly contradictory functions of greed and generosity. A faulty corpus callosum, is often associated with schizophrenia and similar mental aberrations.

  19. dreoilin

    29 Jul, 2011 - 11:58 am

    “I rather like your description of “those feminists who feel the oppression of patriarchy so intensely it compels them to respond in every aspect of their lives.” –Craig
    .
    There are misogynists — and I don’t mean you necessarily, Craig, but we have seen them commenting here — who seem to feel the ‘oppression’ of what they consider ‘feminism’ so intensely it compels them to respond in every aspect of theirs.
    .
    “The problem is, they are dangerously unbalanced individuals who do much harm.”
    .
    Exactly.
    .
    “It is an accepted tenet of evolutionary biology that brain is an expensive resource. An average difference of some 10% between male and female brain size is not trivial. (Please refrain at this point from drawing rash conclusions about average intelligence – ‘intelligence’ is not uncontroversially and easily quantifiable).”–evgueni
    .
    I don’t draw rash conclusions but perhaps you do. Recent research has shown that the further people live from the equator, the bigger their brains. It has nothing to do with ability or intelligence, it is because they require extra brain capacity to deal with the lesser amount of light.
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/07July/Pages/brain-eye-size-distance-to-equator.aspx
    .
    “However, it does limit the scope of any claims of ‘by default’ mental equivalence between the sexes.”
    .
    That’s what I call a rash conclusion.

  20. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:03 pm

    Craig wrote: “One of the frontal lobes (left, I think) of my brain was killed off when I fell from a substantial height onto tarmac as a toddler.”
    .
    Damage or dysfunction to the right frontal lobe, has been linked to psychopathic tendencies.
    .
    :o

  21. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:20 pm

    Craig: To repeat some of my post on the thread below: so, if you go to a minor public school and Oxford and use private medicine, this damns you and your argument, but if you go to a grammar school and Durham, this gives the right to slur feminists and feminism? Where was Strauss-Kahn educated? Do you think he uses private medicine? Do I hear the sound of a barrel being scraped.

    These are not really ‘thoughts on feminism’ (above). They are thoughts on misandry. Not only is it clumsy to denigrate an honourable movement by using clumsy terms like ‘ultra feminism’ or ‘sex negative feminism’ or even ‘ultra sex negative feminism’ now, I see, it makes a nonsense of any discussion. It also, by default, allows misandrists a tenuous form of legitimacy which they do not deserve. Understanding and sympathy, yes, but not legitimacy. As Yakoub says, they are an entirely marginal force: encourage them if you wish, just as you are encouraging the misogynists. I suppose it makes for good traffic.

    I celebrate any defence of happy sensual consensual sexuality, and agree that the Puritan press are driving to suppress it (though this is nothing new). But there are a number of errors and assumptions in your post – feminists who are against corporate exploitation of women’s bodies must also consider sex a ‘totemic act’, for example. I also fail to see any correlation between a right wing attack on Assange and a supposed ‘soft left’ (?) attack on Strauss-Kahn. But finally, and most sadly, I see you feel entitled to give up on the struggle for equality because you have decided that equality is not possible until you construct some kind of brave new world. It might explain why you feel free to attack feminism, but surely it should be the other way round: only by continuing the struggle will such a world be built.

  22. Paul Johnston

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:31 pm

    Hate to say it Craig but taking the “I’m more prole than you are!” stance is not something you can really pull off.

  23. human person

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:41 pm

    It is easy to limit the definition of rape to having to be violent- but then, where is the boundary between sex and violence? This may seem a bit of a cliche but there is an element of violence in sex itself in the rubbing and forcing and pulling and pushing, biting and squeezing…you get the point.

    Hence sex as an act is a pleasant type of violence and this paradox is the crux of the rape debate. This is why a sexual act that you are subjected to without your consent is a violation of your privacy, your body and your integrity, and therefore is violence. Or are you suggesting that only at a certain degree of violence is in fact violence? This would be tantamount to saying “I didn’t slap her/him- i just stroked her/his face really fast and hard”.

    Also there are reasons why a person could and would not fight back and succumb to forced sex- maybe they havn’t been taught how or fear physical violence from the stronger party. Whether it is something you personally would do or not, you could not fault a person for reacting less valiantly when face-to-face with aggression, similar as the way someone reacts when a gun is pointed to their head-the reaction will be a very personal, based on training, experience, self-confidence, upbringing, state-of-mind (was the victim drugged). This is why the “no” is imperative.

    This is a difficult one to debate without listening to the experiences of the survivors of what would probably be called “non-violent” rape. There is the same deep trauma- shame, disgust, disassociation, disenfranchisement from the body as in other types of rape…just minus the physical signs of violence.

    I’m not sure where I stand on the issue of Assange and consent to condoms, this actually might be grounds for a new criteria out of the scope of rape, or it might not be rape at all but that’s not for me to say.

    Apart from this issue I agree with your post and that too often men are assumed guilty and women use false allegations of rape to ruin men’s reputations. I think these women are the worst thing that could happen to women and is against what feminism stands for…like the boy who cried wolf. It’s disrespect of the highest degree and should be punished and frowned upon. It discredits the real victims.

    (Also it is not rape if you have consensual sex and next day regret it for whatever reason, that’s not a matter for the courts but for your own conscience. )

    However there’s a lack of understanding by men of what non-consentual sex is and why it is damaging- i draw this conclusion because I have had endless debates about this with male friends…and men must understand and respect this issue of consent, as well as live it in practice, which is admittedly very difficult. If it means not sleeping with a girl who is drunk off her head, stopping after a kiss when the motor’s hot and running…these are all massive challenges (I’ve been told that it’s especially so to a man).

  24. ingo

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:44 pm

    Thanks Mary, it was a deliberate amalgam, because it fits. I just love to mangle the language, it amuses me, and if it fits the purpose, apply it.

    As for your brain, it is also an extension of your skin, both are the last two bits developed in the womb, connecting the nevrous tissues in the right place, or not. Skin and brain belong together.
    That said, I shall have a little break, its getting too testy here and i feel as if we are arguing the toos about unlaid eggs.

    Thanks for that link dreolin, take care all.

  25. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:48 pm

    Technicolour

    I did not mean that we should give up on the struggle for equality before the creation of a better world; I meant that we can all see such measures have regrettably limited effect. But I did not mean to imply we should stop trying. I was charting my own political thought journey to realising that society needs to be changed more fundamentally than I used to envisage

  26. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:53 pm

    Human Person

    I don’t believe all rape involves physical force to overpower. It could involve blackmail, for example. But sex with an unwilling person is always a violent act.

    Your attempt to construe any physical contact between humans, as violence is casuistry and to proceed from that to an assertion that all penetrative sex can be characterised as violent is to proceed beyond the normal sense of the language.

  27. MarinaS

    29 Jul, 2011 - 12:53 pm

    If the allegations are “always sexual” (by which stunted phrase I expect you mean accusations of sexual misconducts and/or allegations of sexual assault), where’s the rape case against James Murdoch?

    Two cases of rape allegations have broken into the media mainstream, from which little knowledge you draw some dangerously nonsensical conclusions (pitting your frankly shallow understanding of the underlying discourse against the arguable experts – feminists).

    Stripped of names and alleged offences, the oft-repeated assertion that when an allegation of crime against a person is made, we should automatically prefer a superstructure of conspiracy, political undercurrents and skulduggery to the parsimonious explanation: that a crime may have been committed, is not only nakedly political, but frankly irrational.

  28. evgueni

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:00 pm

    Graig,
    I was not specifically thinking of IQ but of any measure of intelligence that could be attempted, ‘objective’ or subjective. I am aware of the dark eugenics origins of IQ-testing from reading War Against the Weak by Edwin Black. Never had the chance to test mine but suspect it is disappointingly average :) Anyway brain size must have been under selection pressure in our evolutionary past, so to dismiss the differences lightly on the basis of a dubious hypothesis won’t do. Where I was leading with this (must remember to spell it out in future) is to the concept of *inclusive fitness* – i.e. it is not all about ‘intelligence’, when survival and reproduction rates are the measure of (evolutionary) success.
    .
    Anyone seeking to understand the true nature of the relationship between the sexes ought to be made to study evolutionary sciences, in particular sexual selection. Otherwise the discussion becomes rather tedious.
    .
    Dreolin,
    happy to disagree with you on this, and surprisingly, agree with JimmyGiro – evolution knows not right or wrong. Your position is rather dogmatic, your reaction appears reflexive. Unless, of course, you misunderstood my point and you were reacting to one that I had not made. The point you make about brain size correlation with latitude is irrelevant, here is why: elephants have bigger brains than humans but this does not invalidate the hypothesis that brain is an expensive resource.

  29. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:11 pm

    MarinaS,

    I was specifically talking of recent allegations against left-wing or progressive figures who have become a threat to the establishment. I don’t think the Murdochs fall into that category.

  30. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:17 pm

    MarinaS,

    Furthermore your argument that feminists are the experts on rape and thus the only people qualified to comment, is absolute dross.

    When I became myself a threat to the establishment, over UK complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition, I was immediately faced with charges of blackmailing visa applicants into sex. I most certainly do know what I am talking about in terms of the state’s use of sexual allegations to denigrate its opponents. The fact you believe that only the alleged victim, and not the alleged accused, is qualified to have a view says all we need to know about you.

    In my case the charges collapsed because they had done it in such a hurry, they did not actually have an alleged victim to put forward. But if you believe the state does not do this stuff, you are very naive.

  31. Herbie

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:22 pm

    I kind of agree with MarinaS in terms of the way you’re approaching this. I don’t agree with her conclusions but I can see that she’s well versed in feminist gymnastics.
    .
    You’d be on a much more solid footing were you to call it cultural misandry and work from there.
    .
    That’s where all the really meaty stuff is and if I may put it like this, stuff much more amenable to the male mind.

  32. Old Trot

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:30 pm

    “…no fundamental change is possible unless we reform our society itself to one which operates on a more cooperative model and in which consumption, wealth and waste of resources are not the primary goals. Then aggression and selfishness will not be rewarded as they now are.”

    Couldn’t agree more. However…

    ” I … have no problem with prostitution, striptease, or advertising images. The coercion and violence which often accompanies prostitution could largely be remedied (as with drugs) by legalisation and regulation. If people wish to sell their sexuality, I believe they have a right to do so.”

    I think there’s a real incompatibility between these two statements. For what it’s worth people (men can be sexually exploited too) do indeed have a sort of libertarian ‘right’ to sell their sexualities. The problem with sexuality being sold is that it becomes a commodity produced by an industry, for profit. Sex workers have rarely made a conscious career choice. Structural poverty feeds this industry, and will continue to do so for as long as production for profit remains the overriding principle governing society. Regulation and legislation do little to ameliorate the conditions of sex-workers. As someone who has lived and worked in Amsterdam’s supposedly regulated Red Light District (in a completely unrelated industry I hasten to add) I can safely say that it is home to some of the most corrupt and vicious big-money criminals in Western Europe, and that the overwhelming majority of prostitutes are coerced into their trade. If prostitution, sex work and sexist advertising still existed in your reformed society, then that reform would have achieved very little.

    As for the DSK case, it is absolutely possible that it is dirty trick. On the other hand, rich and powerful people have a habit of worming their way out of trouble. In spite of the dubious credibility of the alleged victim, there is still sufficient evidence to prosecute. It should also be remembered that liars can be raped too. There’s nothing that says crime only happens to nice people. I really think you should hold back on this (and the Assange case) until such time as all the facts are out in court.

  33. HarpyMarx

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:35 pm

  34. Madam Miaow

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:44 pm

    And another hate-fuelled woman-loathing rant. Twice in a row.

    For the purposes of accuracy, Harpy Marx is neither stupid, nor an idiot. She may write from a perspective with which you disagree but your spite is not helpful to any sensible debate. It’s also most unattractive.

    BTW, I’ve written in defence of Assange. I was also shocked when you were monstered by the establishment. But the same instincts that led me to believe you are both innocent lead me to believe that DSK is conducting a vile PR campaign making full use of his massive resources to destroy Diallo. And he probably dunnit.

    However, we won’t know until this is thrashed out in a court of law. In the meantime, kindly lay off women who are guilty only of defending a woman we believe, for a host of reasons, is being run over by the establishment juggernaut.

  35. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:51 pm

    Madam Miaow wrote: “In the meantime, kindly lay off women who are guilty only of defending a woman we believe, for a host of reasons, is being run over by the establishment juggernaut.”
    .
    Not much difference to the ‘establishment juggernaut’ of the family courts, that run over countless British and American fathers, year in, year out; in total secrecy from the press!
    .
    You Marxist-Feminists are more precious than the Spanish Inquisition.

  36. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 1:59 pm

    Madam Miaow

    Of course I don’t literally think Harpy Marx is stupid, or an idiot. It’s a polemic. And I certainly am not fuelled by hate. Frustration, yes.

  37. HarpyMarx

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:00 pm

    ‘You Marxist-Feminists are more precious than the Spanish Inquisition.”

    Here we go…….

    Any woman who challenges or argues against some bloke’s so-called wisdom stupid comparisons are made which lack analysis and understanding just pure spite and bile.

  38. Old Trot

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:04 pm

    “Not much difference to the ‘establishment juggernaut’ of the family courts, that run over countless British and American fathers, year in, year out”

    Oh right, we all forgot that wife-beaters are victims too.

    “in total secrecy from the press!”

    So if it’s in total secrecy, where are you getting your ‘secret’ information from?

  39. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:06 pm

    “In the meantime, kindly lay off women who are guilty only of defending a woman we believe, for a host of reasons, is being run over by the establishment juggernaut.”
    .
    Hats in the air folks, we have achieved equality between the sexes, Marxist style!

  40. Herbie

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:07 pm

    “You Marxist-Feminists are more precious than the Spanish Inquisition”
    .
    Yes, they’re kinda venerated aren’t they. If you examine this as a cultural phenomenon you’ll make much swifter progress towards conclusion and avoid being waylaid by the siren scream of harpies along the way.

  41. craig

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:08 pm

    HarpyMarx,

    You are very welcome here.

  42. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:18 pm

    Old Trot wrote: “So if it’s in total secrecy, where are you getting your ‘secret’ information from?”
    .
    The same place you get all your ‘undocumented’ cases of rape and abuse from. 1 in 4 women [insert what ever victim clarion term here], based on speculative assessments from a feminist sexpert. Only the difference here is that secret family courts actually exist, permanently in camera, like the Star Chamber; an embarrassment to civil liberty, the rule of law, and the aspiration to justice.

  43. mary

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:30 pm

    tut tut

    2 Responses to Thoughts on Craig Murray
    Madam Miaow says:
    July 29, 2011 at 1:24 pm
    Did you leave a comment on the thread? He should hear this perspective. I left one yesterday.

    Reply
    harpymarx says:
    July 29, 2011 at 1:39 pm
    Just commented and left another one, more sarcastic one liner on the other referring to my blog. He’s so overrated in the anti-war movement.

    Reply

  44. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:38 pm

    HarpyMarx wrote: “He’s so overrated in the anti-war movement.”
    .
    So true; he lacks the non-entity status of a proper gobshite.

  45. dreoilin

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:39 pm

    “elephants have bigger brains than humans but this does not invalidate the hypothesis that brain is an expensive resource” — evgueni
    .
    Therefore? Maybe I did misunderstand you.
    I wasn’t comparing elephants to humans though, I was citing a study that compared humans in one place to humans in another.
    .
    Look at this, for example:
    .
    “In primitive societies, men did the hunting, which often took them far from home. Males with the ability to recognize landscapes from different orientations and thereby find their way back had a survival advantage. Men who could process trajectories in three dimensions—the trajectory, say, of a spear thrown at an edible mammal—also had a survival advantage. (8) Women did the gathering. Those who could distinguish among complex arrays of vegetation, remembering which were the poisonous plants and which the nourishing ones, also had a survival advantage. Thus the logic for explaining why men should have developed elevated three-dimensional visuospatial skills and women an elevated ability to remember objects and their relative locations—differences that show up in specialized tests today. (9)
    .
    “Perhaps this is a just-so story. (10) Why not instead attribute the results of these tests to socialization? Enter the neuroscientists. It has been known for years that, even after adjusting for body size, men have larger brains than women. Yet most psychometricians conclude that men and women have the same mean IQ (although debate on this issue is growing). (11) One hypothesis for explaining this paradox is that three-dimensional processing absorbs the extra male capacity. In the last few years, magnetic-resonance imaging has refined the evidence for this hypothesis, revealing that parts of the brain’s parietal cortex associated with space perception are proportionally bigger in men than in women. (12)
    .
    “What does space perception have to do with scores on math tests? (13) Enter the psychometricians, who demonstrate that when visuospatial ability is taken into account, the sex difference in SAT math scores shrinks substantially. (14)”
    http://www.bible-researcher.com/murray1.html
    .
    Don’t assume anything about me from the source I’m quoting. I am giving it purely as an example of the kind of discussions that go on (and on and on).
    .
    One could theorize about all of this till the cows come home. Meanwhile, ‘psychiatry’ involves limited knowledge and much guesswork (and wrongful “condition” labelling and a multitude of harmful prescriptions) and scientists looking at possible “links” between for example, damage to the right frontal lobe and psychopathic tendencies, is, for now, nothing more than examining a tiny (potential) piece of a massive jigsaw. It will be decades before the workings of the brain are fully understood and any meaningful comparisons between male and female brains can be made.
    .
    Meanwhile, I’m like Ingo and I’m opting out. I find this thread as unpleasant as the last.
    BTW, Mary, I agree with you 100% about the media and the fact that they should be kept out until after trial.

  46. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:51 pm

    @ Dreoilin,
    .
    Psychiatry and Neurology are making profound and rapid progress, thanks to the new instrumentation available, such as functional-MRI, and on-demand brain interruption from ‘magnetic wands’; its all surging ahead.
    .
    Read Iain McGilchrist’s magnus opus “The Master and His Emissary”, for a fair round up of the state of play as of 2009.

  47. Old Trot

    29 Jul, 2011 - 2:58 pm

    JimmyGiro

    “The same place you get all your ‘undocumented’ cases of rape and abuse from”

    You appear to be quoting me for something I never said – making it up as you go along in other words. Still, it’s pretty consistent with the rest of your fact-free diatribes

  48. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 3:04 pm

    “You appear to be quoting me for something I never said.”
    .
    That’s the trouble with Marxist-Feminists, there’s such a huge paucity of meaning to quote from.

  49. evgueni

    29 Jul, 2011 - 4:19 pm

    Dreolin,
    This is evolving into a complex theme, but my initial statement was limited. For clarity I will restate in a condensed form: I object when equality of opportunity is without justification interpreted to mean equality of outcome. Reason one – it has not been shown that men and women always desire the same outcomes. It is rather trivial to show that they do not, the arguments are generally about why this is so (nature versus cultural programming). Reason two – it has not been shown that men and women have the same abilities (here I made a caveat that I am not simply talking about ‘intelligence’, whatever that is taken to mean). I think all of this is uncontroversial so far. Brain size difference is an indication that evolution has shaped men’s and women’s minds differently, not only their bodies. It is an inconvenient fact that cannot be left unexplained by those who wish that equality of outcomes would follow from equality of opportunity. Note I am not assigning any value to the difference – bigger brain does not necessarily mean ‘better’ (elephants are not ‘better’ than humans, but they are different). For instance, the additional volume of men’s brain could represent nothing more than the functional equivalent of a peacock’s tail – an expensive adornment in terms of survival fitness, i.e. the result instead of sexual selection. Regardless of what differences in abilities between men and women are actually discernable, my point is rather limited – that it cannot be assumed by default that their abilities are the same, on average, with regard to specific sets of mental tasks as relevant to a particular career choice for example. Phew…
    .
    Now to the brain size versus latitude study that you mentioned. It is a small epidemiological study that establishes correlation only, however if the suggested hypothesis is correct then this is another indication that selection pressure impacts on brain size. It in no way invalidates the hypothesis that a difference in brain size between the sexes represents actual differences in mental abilities. That is why I say this study is not relevant to my argument.
    .
    As for Craig’s presentation of his arguments, I too think he often would benefit from moderating the language he uses. A measured argument is always better received.

  50. anon

    29 Jul, 2011 - 4:30 pm

    “all it measures is your ability to take IQ tests – but I last had mine measured at 187″
    .
    Forget all that crap!, the most important thing is the one thing no one appears to give a second glance at…Common sense.
    As for IQ, in all my years I have found that IQ and common sense rarely come together, nice when they do though.

  51. John Goss

    29 Jul, 2011 - 4:32 pm

    You’ve certainly put the smoke in the hornet’s nest with this one, Craig. Still it’s healthy, between consenting adults, and you’re not forcing yourself upon anyone. I get the impression HarpyMarx and Madam Miaow have a bit of a thing about you.

  52. Stephen Morgan

    29 Jul, 2011 - 4:43 pm

    I’m probably one of the few regular readers more anti-feminist than you, Craig. For example, your propensity to refer to “alpha male behaviour” and “male sociopaths” as shorthand for reprehensible actions and individuals is quite objectionable.

    You acceptance of certain feminist beliefs without support is quite troubling too, the myth of women receiving less pay for the same work, for example.

    Feminism certainly seems to lend itself to use by repressive government and corporate actions which, along with my fondness for the God of abstract justice, is the reason for my opposition to it. As a socialist I could not in good conscience have anything to do with feminism.

  53. Stephen Morgan

    29 Jul, 2011 - 5:12 pm

    I should point out that John Goss is wrong in supposing that only men commit rape and other sexual offences, although for physical reasons that’s more common. In fact there’s an internet page somewhere with a gallery of what they call the fifty best looking female sex offenders. Which doesn’t include those copy-cat bobbitts, as their crimes are never accused of motivation by sexist hatred or classified as sex crimes.

    To respond to the blog post, I certainly don’t regard women as a disadvantaged class. A class which has lower rates of homelessness, suicide, unemployment and incarceration, has a longer life expectancy, better educational outcomes, majority of new entrants into the professions, majority in university education, get shorter sentences when convicted of the same crime, earn three times as much when busking, and so on, pretty much any measurable and objective statistical measurement, not subjective stuff about glass ceilings and rape cultures and hostile environments. Feminism is therefore an anti-egalitarian movement, certainly not impartial experts on any issue.

  54. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 5:22 pm

    Solid copy Stephen.

  55. deepgreenpuddock

    29 Jul, 2011 - 5:49 pm

    Most of the post has all the hallmarks of a rather elaborate self-justification-a weird waltz around much of Craig’s labyrinthine mind-his perceptions and personal experiences, to justify his position and express and rationalise his experience of women and sexuality, and accommodate it with an attachment to basic liberal values. (By the way that last bit is not meant as a stealthy rebuke).

    However one senses that a lot of the post reflects such a distinctive perspective, created by the trauma of suffering a assault on his basic beliefs concerning personal relations and intimacy, that it is somewhat less than balanced.
    For instance-he expresses the idea that prostitution and selling of sex is perfectly OK, provided it is done without coercion and is the free choice of the individual. All very libertarian and a (sort of) simple logic.

    Unfortunately, my experience of ‘sex for sale’ is that it is virtually always related to people who are depleted, exploited, physically and mentally harmed or traumatised , undeveloped (educationally), mentally unstable, or vulnerable, or poverty stricken.( or any mixture of these).

    For instance, I went to the Black sea (Bulgaria) in the nineties, on holiday, and met a woman at a cafe, in slightly odd circumstances. It turned out she was a teacher,( and looked like one) but since the collapse of industry in the eastern soviet bloc, she had eventually been left with little economic option except to start stalking the black sea resorts for clients. ( the salary for teaching had been decimated by the influx of desperate people from other industries).
    She most emphatically was not ‘true to type’. She was in a desperate economic situation. Her actions were far from a free choice’ even in the absence of any association with some organised criminality or ‘sex industry’. She made the decision purely on her own bat, but would never have been there if she could have made a living some other way.
    (I want to add that our interaction went no further than a friendly discussion, after she had approached me).

    I don’t think anyone who is fully equipped with a properly developed mind and a reasonable living, within a socially viable context, which provides economic options, will ever adopt prostitution ‘freely’ (or will be so rare as to be of only marginal). Prostitution and the sex industry is irredeemably intertwined with personal degradation and exploitation and inevitably reflects the inherent absence of balance in power, in relations between men and women, a reflection itself of the fundamental nature of the disadvantage placed on women by the biology of reproduction.

    It seems quite clear to to me that we are dealing with yet another example of the Faustian bargain, created by the advance of technology, and its impact on social and personal relations and social structures based upon long established belief systems.

    An interesting (key) aspect of the Norwegian situation is Breivick’s perception that the Muslim population , with a highly improbable birth rate of 1.2 children per annum, was going to swamp the indigenous population, the poor victims of ‘cultural marxism’-those sorry feminist-leaning western women were turning to career and childless lives.
    Interestingly the same fear of being bred out of existence seems to be very prevalent within the Israeli political mentality.
    Again i would question the situation of why would women choose to be childless. How ‘free’ is that choice? Personally
    I suspect that is very largely an economic choice, although it must have a number of other attractions. Women work because modern western life is well nigh impossible without their income, as well as because it offers an escape from the distinct risk of the type of drudgery , social isolation and shrunken opportunities that a (traditional) women’s role often represents.
    However I would add that a review of the property/financial crisis reveals that it was closely connected to the
    impossibility of getting on the property ladder without two salaries. ( another can of worms opens up here).

    The post gets more interesting when it discusses near the end, the way modern life has been sexualised and rather curiously, as people have become more free to make decisions related to their personal life, we seem to have remained very susceptible to shock and disapproval of people who behave in sexually libertarian ways, permitting the smearing of notable people.
    Why is Tommy Sheridan so discredited in our eyes because he allegedly indulges in activities which seem to be permitted in law?

    The basic and unavoidable aspect is that many of us have a reflexive attitude that a person with an unusual interest in sex is less controlled, and less able to deploy other aspects of his or her mental resources. It is (almost) OK if a footballer is a shagger but not a politician (or an ambassador), who is often under under stress to make judgements that may have far reaching consequences. However I wonder how many people actually thought that Max Moseley was in some way intellectually reduced by his attachment to S and M.

    There is little doubt that there are deep associations of sexual licentiousness being associated with various degrees of social dysfunction and one might speculate that there is a great residual fear of the consequent impact on survival, of a group, caused by the destabilising effects of the activities of someone who does not conform to social sexual mores of the group.
    One can only wonder if S and M, or even sex clubbing, is really a way for patrician (and other) types of AVOIDING the very confusing complexities of a more intimate and conventional personal interaction. A financial interaction relieves people of the obligations that intimacy has always represented. In that way they seem rather deficient in their humanity.

    For Mary. re ‘Peckerdillo’ – and the associations that the word invites . In the early sixties, women who had had their children were beginning to move into the workplace, especially in the ‘light, sunrise’ industries of electronics that were encouraged at the time.
    My mother’s friend got a job with a company making transistors and diodes.
    After a couple of shifts working in her new job, she popped in one evening to recount her experiences and described how she was making dildos. My mother was slightly surprised (to say the least) but of course she had no idea what a diode was, and could hardly make the verbal connection.
    A rather strange conversation ensued, until I was called in to offer my new found knowledge from Physics classes. So my mother knew what a dildo was, but not a diode. I knew what a diode ( a semiconductor device, made from tiny pieces of p-type and n-type germanium or silicon, that permitted electrons to flow in one direction only) was, but not a dildo, and Mrs P, the worker, hadn’t a clue what either a dildo or a diode were, although I think she may have heard the word ‘dildo’ before and simply conflated the words. Anyway i was very happy to correct Mrs P.
    Unfortunately there was a communication gap between my mother and myself-sharing our understanding to mutual benefit was simply not possible in those much more innocent times.

  56. John Goss

    29 Jul, 2011 - 5:51 pm

    Stephen Morgan, I didn’t know that! You’re never too old to learn!

  57. Stephen Morgan

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:33 pm

    If the concern is that the decision to join the sex trade, like all decisions in our society, is influenced by coercive economic factors then the remedy is to ensure a more equitable distribution of wealth. Criminalising prostitution will only exacerbate any damage caused by economic necessity.

  58. andy

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:45 pm

    Lots to think about.
    .
    The Guardian product , values, etc…

  59. JimmyGiro

    29 Jul, 2011 - 6:45 pm

    Suyayl Saadi wrote: “But you haven’t explained how this all relates to Karl Marx, the C19th man with a long beard and an effective critique of capitalism.”
    .
    Marxist-Feminism has precisely bugger all to do with Marx. It has evolved like a pernicious retro-virus, to further the aims of the likes of the Fabian society. After all, do you only define Christianity exclusively according to the beliefs and actions of Christ; or do you take into account the many types of Christian sects, and measure Christianity according to what Christians say and do?
    .
    Will you challenge “HarpyMarx” for her predilections to Duck Soup, or Animal Crackers?
    .
    Marxist-Feminists are to be defined by what they say and do, for that is the product of what they believe. They should not be defined according to the dictionary definition, for that ultimately is a manifesto of hope or pretext; therefore all practising religions should be judged by what they say and do.
    .
    Marxist-Feminism is not the opposite of capitalism, it is orthogonal to it, and is therefore free to enter a symbiotic partnership with capitalism. The arrangement being: Marxists control the state-bureaucracy, and the capitalists control the nations income. The symbiotic bridge being filled by us, the people, who will ultimately be the slave labour of work-house Britain Incorporated.
    .
    The Feminist suffix will only be temporary, since feminism is merely the Trojan Horse to destroy the family and other heterosexual sheet-anchors of old culture. Once the feminists have caused cultural collapse (education becomes relativist drivel, families become objects of suspicion, compulsory state run nurseries, male management eradicated, etc), the ensuing crisis will allow the state leviathan to take executive control, and provide the eager corporations with desperate and willing slave labour. The feminists, once used, will themselves be betrayed, and ordered into the work columns, so they will finally get their equality, and they will hate it as much as the men. But there will be no rebellion, because the state nomenklatura will control the food; and reword good work with permission to have sex.
    .
    Of course, I might be wrong. :)

  60. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:04 pm

    @ JimmyGiro: seems to me that you’ve cut and pasted this from somewhere.

    Anyway. No idea what Suhayl would say (probably something funny and apposite) but yes, of course, I define Christianity according to the actions and belief of Christ: otherwise the term is meaningless. Equally, I measure the actions of professed Christians against them.

    Feminism destroys the family, does it? It has certainly challenged a family structure in which rape was legal and in which women had no control over income or property,and a system in which women had no right to vote; and in many ways, has succeeded (the fact that in many people’s view there are no parties fit to vote for is another issue). It has fought for equality of income, fought against the secrecy of abuse and domestic violence, fought for the right for female education, and on and on.

    You may feel it would have been a better world if these iniquities had been allowed to continue unabated here: in which case I question not merely your sanity, but humanity. You seem to fail to realise that encouraging men to behave, or condoning men behaving, brutally has brutal effects on men too: this brutalisation is what we should all be fighting against. Feminism, in its real form, does so.

    “…the ensuing crisis will allow the state leviathan to take executive control, and provide the eager corporations with desperate and willing slave labour.”. If you had any grasp of geography, history or culture you would understand that this, with the exception of the word ‘willing’, has happened, is happening, and will happen, unless people unite to resist it.

  61. epyon

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:16 pm

    hmmmm. well I would postulate that its perfectly plausible that both men did the things they are accused of doing and their position of opposition to powerful interests facilitated their prosecution which otherwise in our society would be unlikely.
    There is a plausible case that DSK seems to have done what he is accused of and more, all his previous crimes have been covered up by the institutions that he worked for (the French socialist episode is especially troubling), his latest crime coincided with the need to restore neoliberal orthodoxy at the IMF and hence is proceeding.
    As for assange, has anyone read the description by one of assange’s accusers of their encounter, I don’t think she’s lying and statistically it’s pretty solid that only a tiny minority of women lie about this kind of thing.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#British_Home_Office
    I don’t think it’s unreasonable to conclude that his committing of those crimes coincided with the aims of Swedish conservatives to cosy up to the US by convicting someone they (the US) were out to get, this resulted in the robust prosecution of something that (sadly even in Sweden) a powerful man would usually get away with very easily
    Otherwise great people do horrible things, Martin Luther King Jr cheated on his wife loads, Gandhi was all kinds of crazy when it came to his personal life, it’s not too much of a stretch to imagine that these men can be both good in one way and bad in another.
    Craig. if you want a more snappily written alternative to @Yakub islam’s recommendation on gender construction and male/female personalities you could try
    cordelia fine’s book delusions of gender
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delusions-Gender-Science-Behind-Differences/dp/184831163X
    it’s really good
    here’s an interview with her
    http://castroller.com/Podcasts/LittleAtoms/1830601-Cordelia%20Fine%20-%20Delusions%20of%20Gender

  62. epyon

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:32 pm

    (ok last try at posting this no links this time)
    hmmmm. well I would postulate that its perfectly plausible that both men did the things they are accused of doing and their position of opposition to powerful interests facilitated their prosecution which otherwise in our society would be unlikely.
    There is a plausible case that DSK seems to have done what he is accused of and more, all his previous crimes have been covered up by the institutions that he worked for (the French socialist episode is especially troubling), his latest crime coincided with the need to restore neoliberal orthodoxy at the IMF and hence is proceeding.
    As for assange, has anyone read the description by one of assange’s accusers of their encounter, I don’t think she’s lying and statistically it’s pretty solid that only a tiny minority of women lie about this kind of thing.
    (wikipedia ["false accusiation of rape"] lists stats of studies done in the uk, 3% false claims and the Austrailia at 2.1% )
    I don’t think it’s unreasonable to conclude that his committing of those crimes coincided with the aims of Swedish conservatives to cosy up to the US by convicting someone they (the US) were out to get, this resulted in the robust prosecution of something that (sadly even in Sweden) a powerful man would usually get away with very easily
    People who are otherwise great do horrible things, Martin Luther King Jr cheated on his wife loads, Gandhi was all kinds of crazy when it came to his personal life, it’s not too much of a stretch to imagine that these men can be both good in one way and bad in another.
    Craig. if you want a more snappily written alternative to @Yakub islam’s recommendation on gender construction and male/female personalities you could try
    cordelia fine’s book delusions of gender
    it’s really good
    there’s also a prety good interview with her at little atoms and one on behind the news with doug henwood.

  63. Clark

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:54 pm

    I’d like to register my objection to calling Jesus of Nazereth “Christ”.
    .
    The story of Jesus carries huge emotional power – so long as he is regarded as a normal human. The perversion of his story into that of some sort of immortal sub-deity robs it of all meaning.

  64. technicolour

    29 Jul, 2011 - 9:05 pm

    Clark, fair play; on the other hand that’s what ‘Christianity’ does, otherwise I guess it would be called ‘Jesusism’ :)

  65. Clark

    29 Jul, 2011 - 9:15 pm

    “Christianity” is fair enough. They mythologise and thereby degrade this important human story.

  66. Antonio Lorusso

    29 Jul, 2011 - 9:22 pm

    “I think that palliative measures on female equality, for example on equal pay, have been a good and important thing.”

    “Then aggression and selfishness will not be rewarded as they now are.”

    The equal pay act and other equality legislation (I’m assuming you’re referring to this in the first quote) is ultimately enforced by government violence. You want society to change to be less aggressive by not rewarding aggression? Try leading by example and not advocating aggression to get what you want.

    Apart from that bit your article is bang on, the neofeminists are reducing adult women to the status of children, and men to the status of the devil incarnate.

  67. Clark

    29 Jul, 2011 - 9:51 pm

    Epyon, you wrote: “statistically it’s pretty solid that only a tiny minority of women lie about this kind of thing”. However, you have referenced a Wikipedia article with the tag “The neutrality of this article is disputed”, and quoted the lowest figures in that article. Other parts of the article read:
    .
    “Detailed investigations using differing samples and methodologies have found widely differing results ranging from as high as 41% to as low as 1.5%. As a scientific matter, the frequency of false rape complaints to police or other legal authorities remains unknown”
    .
    and
    .
    “A tabulated list of studies on false reporting published between 1968 and 2005 placed the percentage of false reports between a minimum on 1.5% (Theilade and Thomsen, 1986) and a maximum of 90% (Stewart, 1981)”.

  68. Suhayl Saadi

    30 Jul, 2011 - 12:05 am

    So, Jimmy, you’re saying that Marxism has nothing to do Marx? How odd. I suppose Leninism has nothing to do with Lenin. And Stalinism has nothing to do with Stalin. And Trotskyism has nothing to do with Trotsky. And Maoism has nothing to do with Mao. And Thatcherism has nothing to do with Thatcher. And Bonapartism has nothing to do with Bonaparte. And Kafkaesque has nothing to do with Kafka. How odd. One almost feels as though one is turning into a cockroach. Perhaps your political philosophy might be termed, Cockroachism.
    .
    One suspects the truth is, you don’t really know that much about Marxism (or Marx); as I suggested, you just use the term as a totem, a negative signifier. Kind of like Senator Joe McCarthy did.
    .
    You didn’t read the link I provided about Asma Jehangir, did you? Here it is again. One thing is clear: Asma Jehangir does not believe in Cockroachism.
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_Jahangir

  69. andrew smith

    30 Jul, 2011 - 2:24 am

    Hi Craig

    I haven’t seen you since your last days as rector at Dundee, i hope you are well.

    You’ve certainly thrown the proverbial cat among the pigeons with a couple of your recent entries.

    When the state fabricated evidence against you their motives were obvious, and i’m glad that the lies fell apart (unfortunately at a considerable emotional cost to yourself and your family).

    Simmilarly if the Julian Assange allegations are also bullshit then the motives on the part of the establishment is very obvious. However, I know enough about the Tommy Sheridan case to know that it wasn’t quite so clear cut.

    The part of your post that i’m wondering about is the part about DSK. What would the motive be to frame him up? in his role at the IMF he was a piller of the european political class, who did he represent a threat to?

  70. craig

    30 Jul, 2011 - 8:33 am

    Andrew,

    Great to hear from you. I should be plain I don’t think the allegations against Sheridan were false. Set up, possibly, but not false. In his case, he wasn’t accused of doing anything illegal, but the madness was with the feminists who considered having a bath with some sex-workers worth the destruction of the SSP.

  71. craig

    30 Jul, 2011 - 8:37 am

    DSK I think was probably just Sarko wanting to get rid of his most dangerous opponent, but like you I am not entirely sure.

  72. Suhayl Saadi

    30 Jul, 2011 - 8:42 am

    I would tend to agree wrt Sheridan. However, wrt the SSP fragmentation, Craig, was it not because Sheridan allegedly asked the SSP to engage in a cover-up of his sexual shenanigans that the SSP fragmented? Did they not advise Sheridan not to sue the Murdoch press? I’m sure they advised him not to sue. I agree, however, that in Scottish culture, there is a stream of repressed opprobrium about sex, possibly (simplistic, I know) a legacy of the mix of Calvinism and Irish-Scots Catholic guilt, etc., and that probably did play a part. But, sadly – very sadly – I think it was Sheridan’s own hang-ups that did for him/them, rather than feminism.

  73. Suhayl Saadi

    30 Jul, 2011 - 8:43 am

    Yes, I agree about Sarko wrt DSK. His hand was there, somewhere, I’m sure.
    .
    Is Sarko on cocaine, btw? I’ve heard this rumour, from some journalists in France, but never had it confirmed. His energy level is legendary.

  74. Vronsky

    30 Jul, 2011 - 8:46 am

    An interesting thread – must say I don’t agree with those leaving because it’s become too rude. My own view probably is much as probably Craig’s, but as modified by Old Trot and DeepGreenPuddock – workers in the sex industry are almost invariably coerced.

    I don’t think all feminists are crazy but I know some are – there’s Luce Irigaray, for example, who thinks that Einstein’s equation E=mc^2 is ‘sexed’. There’s an amusing deconstruction of Irigaray and other deconstructionists in ‘Intellectual Impostures’ – Irigaray is described as ‘unwittingly comical’.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashionable_Nonsense

  75. Vronsky

    30 Jul, 2011 - 8:57 am

    Sorry to pop up twice, but the allegations against Sheridan were, as Craig says, both true and set up. However feminism had nothing to do with his downfall – it was Sheridan’s ego which caused the trouble, his desire to take on NI even though it meant asking his colleagues – male and female – to lie for him. It was mostly the males who refused. A senior Scottish QC, a friend of Sheridan’s, told me that he had strongly advised Tommy *in writing* that he should not proceed with the case against NI as the outcome, no matter what it was, would likely be very damaging to the SSP.
    .
    After the recent shenanigans at NI maybe Tommy will have the last laugh. Damage done, though.

  76. Suhayl Saadi

    30 Jul, 2011 - 9:25 am

    Precisely, Vronsky. It really had absolutely nothing to do with feminism.

  77. Suhayl Saadi

    30 Jul, 2011 - 9:36 am

    “I agree that IQ is a controversial thing – all it measures is your ability to take IQ tests – but I last had mine measured at 187…” Craig.
    .
    That casual comment, my dear fellow, allows us to put you squarely in the ‘highest genius’ category. Indeed, according to Bertrand Russell (drawing on Nietsche), it would make you ‘an overman’.
    .
    http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm
    .
    Or else, a Midwich Cuckoo.
    .
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Midwich_Cuckoos

  78. Suhayl Saadi

    30 Jul, 2011 - 9:47 am

    I should say that Craig’s helping of people in need, as depicted by him earlier in this thread, is admirable and amazingly self-sacrificing. I’d missed that bit of the post before, and I think that needs to be said. I also agree with Craig that the struggle must be comprehensive and societal in nature.

  79. Guest

    30 Jul, 2011 - 10:45 am

    “I should be plain I don’t think the allegations against Sheridan were false. Set up, possibly, but not false.”
    .
    That maybe is what was intended for you and others to think?. After the first trial at which Sheridan won, the second trial hinged on the black shadow video, with a voice that was or was not Sheridans?. For me it was all too strange to make any sense, that is to this day my thoughts on it all.
    .
    As for your being set up Craig, its a very old ploy that the right wing have employed over not years but over the centuries…William Dodd
    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17991&pid=231510&st=0&#entry231510

  80. Guest

    30 Jul, 2011 - 11:04 am

    “That maybe is what was intended for you and others to think?.”
    .
    “What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite”
    Bertrand Russell (1872 – 1970)

  81. technicolour

    30 Jul, 2011 - 11:45 am

    Oh for heaven’s sake. Craig: “but the madness was with the feminists who considered having a bath with some sex-workers worth the destruction of the SSP.”

    Really? I would have thought it far more likely that it was the disapproving spinsters, rather than the ‘feminists’. At least, that would be one way to keep blaming ‘women’. Where are all these ‘feminists’ who brought down the SSP? How did they do it? Without any proof this is again entirely nonsensical – never mind against the interpretation anyone I’ve known who knows anything about Scottish and SSP politics has given it.

  82. Jon

    30 Jul, 2011 - 1:12 pm

    Jimmy, in case you forgot… from the previous thread:
    .
    > So, as to whether all women are misandrist. It’s an important point, I think.

  83. Guest

    30 Jul, 2011 - 2:18 pm

    “DSK or Assange”
    .
    Looks like you can add another one
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jul2011/moti-j30.shtml

  84. Guest

    30 Jul, 2011 - 4:13 pm

    “his desire to take on NI even though it meant asking his colleagues – male and female – to lie for him. It was mostly the males who refused.”
    .
    Vronsky, I don`t think it was that way. There were some at that meeting that said he never admitted but denied what had been written about him, the majority of the first trial jury believed them…Vronsky wrote… “After the recent shenanigans at NI maybe Tommy will have the last laugh. Damage done, though.”…As Craig wrote above…”the destruction of the SSP”…Whatever the truth of the matter, all roads lead to…mission accomplished!.

  85. JimmyGiro

    30 Jul, 2011 - 6:50 pm

    Jon wrote: “Jimmy, in case you forgot… from the previous thread:
    .
    > So, as to whether all women are misandrist. It’s an important point, I think.”
    .
    A mangina believes that all women are feminists; therefore it is a ‘reasonable’ question to you.

  86. technicolour

    30 Jul, 2011 - 6:58 pm

    How very sad to adopt your discourse from Hollywood films. But then it is make-believe, tissue-thin, fantasy, isn’t it, Jimmy, with not even a good script to back it up.

  87. JimmyGiro

    30 Jul, 2011 - 7:02 pm

    @ Jon,
    .
    Further, in an act of great prescience to your deliberate equivocations, I answered your ‘important point’ in the first comment of this thread.
    .
    It is very brave of you and the other manginas, Suhayl and Technicolour, to sacrifice your intellectual integrity at the altar of Marxist-Feminist misandry.
    .
    Your collective equivocations failed to account for the real evil displayed in the Sharon Osbourne exposure; and the Marxist-Feminist holocaust of boys education, as exemplified by the drugging of about 1 million boys (and rising) with Ritalin on a regular basis.

  88. James

    31 Jul, 2011 - 5:43 am

    We live and have always lived and always will live in a dysfunctional and damaged mixed tribe of semi naked interbred apes on a damp rock in the middle of nowhere where life as we know it is nasty, brutal and short and made more so by our own efforts. We don’t know where we came from, we don’t know why we are here, and we don’t know where we are going. We will continue to live this way until our extinction is achieved.

  89. Suhayl Saadi

    31 Jul, 2011 - 10:27 am

    “damaged mixed tribe…” James.
    .
    Do you mean the Neanderthal, etc. admixtures? Is this a ’2001′ Kubrick image? Throw the bone up into the sky… I mean, you’re not wrong, obviously, wrt the ape-thing, but…
    .
    My advice: a stiff whisky.
    .
    Jimmy, here we go: “the Marxist-Feminist holocaust”. You missed out ‘Femi-Nazi’. Don’t forget the ‘Femi-Nazi Mangina’. This is a William Burroughs, H. P. Lovecraft primal creature and it’s waiting for you, Jimmy. It yearns for you. It wants to encompass you and swallow you up. To take you back into the great womb.
    .
    My advice: some dungarees.

  90. Jon

    31 Jul, 2011 - 11:31 am

    Aw, Jimmy, we were 95% of the way there, and you fell at the last hurdle! Connecting your recent statements together with logic, I surmised that you felt all women are misandrists. That would of course be such a ludicrous conclusion that it would discredit pretty much your whole thesis, so of course it is no surprise you need to dodge it.
    .
    If anyone is interested in how you backed yourself into this particular corner, they can read our conversation on the previous thread – I think it speaks for itself.
    .
    We’ve been here before though: on “DSK and the rush to judgement”, you also slipped away and evaded the questions put to you. You’d made a number of unsubstantiated claims about false rape allegations, but were unwilling to provide sources. And, of course, your posts were peppered with a selection of misogynist assumptions (“Where [sic] you taught maths by a woman?”, “Were you taught logic by your auntie?”, etc. ad nauseum). As I said at the time:
    .
    > Your dilemma is that you have a passionate cause, but are not willing to argue
    > cogently and respectfully in its service. Instead, you presume that everyone will
    > reject your view and lash out at anyone who engages with you.
    .
    As for “a mangina believes that all women are feminists”, I’ve never suggested that all women are feminists, as far as I recall. I believe quite the opposite, in fact: see my comments on “The Derek Walcott Scandal”, where in May 2009 I critiqued women who blindly perpetuate the capitalist meme of ideal beauty.

  91. JimmyGiro

    31 Jul, 2011 - 11:45 am

    “My advice: some dungarees.”
    .
    Aren’t you afraid it might clash with your brown shirt?

  92. JimmyGiro

    31 Jul, 2011 - 12:23 pm

    Jon equivocated: “Your dilemma is that you have a passionate cause, but are not willing to argue cogently and respectfully in its service.”
    .
    If true, the dilemma would be yours; consistent with your need to equivocate. For anybody who is passionate about anything, must by the nature of passion, have no equivocations in that regard, or respect; hence no dilemma.
    .
    Jon further equivocated: “Instead, you presume that everyone will reject your view and lash out at anyone who engages with you.”
    .
    Equivocators, like all manginas, are not all the people, nor indeed are they all of the critics; but all manginas, are all equivocators; as they have to be in order to support a regime that would regard their own gender as superfluous to function, and hence untermensch. Like turkeys voting for Christmas, the mangina has to reassess reality by redefining in morally relativistic, and hence ambiguous comprehension, so as to become the sacred martyr of their chosen oblivion. As fools, you become to the church of Marxist-Feminism, ‘King for a day’; a delusion prior to your willing sacrifice, and betrayal of humanity, which your egos have outgrown, in Faustian contempt of mankind and your status as ‘mere men’.
    .
    It is therefore pertinent, and purposeful, to reject out of hand, the drivelling equivocations of traitors to the human race. For anybody that cannot see the evil of ubiquitous misandry (a la the display of Sharon Osbourne et al, on CBS’s “TheTalk”), or the holocaust of Ritalin abuse of boys, must be ambivalent toward the human condition, hence traitors to the human race.

  93. Jon

    31 Jul, 2011 - 12:39 pm

    Jimmy, splendid word-smithery; I should pay to hear such a show!
    .
    I am confused as how you find my two quotes equivocatory, however. I think each of them are rather clear. But perhaps you believe my general argument to be an equivocation, in which case I should be thrilled to hear what specific part you found wanting.
    .
    Meanwhile, to make non-specific allegations of a deliberate lack of clarity whilst repeatedly avoiding questions yourself reminds me strongly of the pot and the kettle. Here now is your latest foe, waiting to defeat you either with, on your part, an error of logic or an absurd conclusion: are all women misandrists? I feel that a yes or no would suffice, though I am always open for a question to be questioned, if a clear reason can be given.
    .
    Whilst you are pondering upon your clear and non-evasive reply, I trust that the puce of your keyboard rage won’t clash with my brown jumper!

  94. JimmyGiro

    31 Jul, 2011 - 1:09 pm

    “Whilst you are pondering upon your clear and non-evasive reply, I trust that the puce of your keyboard rage won’t clash with my brown jumper!”
    .
    In order to be of any pertinence to any moral position, the mangina would need to engage with the very reality that their terms are designed to evade; hence, nothing clashes with the ambivalent mind of the equivocator. Moral relativism is the hallmark of the equivocator, and is the chosen survival strategy of the mangina, whilst he waits for his own ‘female’ transubstantiation.

  95. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 1:33 pm

    Cutting and pasting again, Jimmy – I do wish the board owner would clear up his own mess, sometimes.

  96. JimmyGiro

    31 Jul, 2011 - 2:14 pm

    In their pursuit of moral oblivion, the manginas have no desire for a specific comprehension of reality, owing to their over-riding need of perpetual ambivalence. Since they are neither wholly men nor wholly women, they bring to all discussion only the default weapon of bigotry; for if they risk a meaningful standpoint, then their foundation of equivocation would collapse, along with their very pertinence they feel toward, and within, the human race.
    .
    “Cutting and pasting again, Jimmy – I do wish the board owner would clear up his own mess, sometimes.”

  97. Jon

    31 Jul, 2011 - 3:22 pm

    Ha, this is fantastically entertaining, really! JimmyG, your wonderful lexicon and complex subclauses are truly wasted in the service of such patent nonsense! Shall we have a tally, to add glee and schadenfreude to my check mate?
    .
    * When I criticised your position that, if rape cases secure a conviction rate of 6%, it must be the case that the false claim rate is 94% – we didn’t get a straight answer from you;
    * When it was put to you (by several people) that the medical establishment, probably due to its capitalist element, will cheerfully mis-prescribe drugs to women as well as to boys, we had no answer from you;
    * When your disingenuous examples of ‘feminist’ are shown to be anything but (particularly Harman, Clinton and now – best of all – Sharon Osborne) we have no answer from you;
    * When I ask you whether, to bring your recent sub-points to a logical conclusion, you believe all women to be misandrists, you press play on the Marxists-Feminist Quote Box [++], and we have no straight answer from you, on several occasions;
    * When you accuse me of believing that all women are feminists, I show with evidence where I have said something to the contrary, and you ignore this without conceding the point;
    * When you accuse me of equivocation, you are cagey about what particular statement of mine you find equivocal.
    .
    Need I go on? If you want to play, you can either engage with the debate, or concede gracefully. I suppose we have the advantage that if you do neither, we can assume you have given up, and onlookers here can derive splendid amusement from the intriguing new ways you have discovered to avoid the question. You, sir, are an expert of the highest order!
    .
    [++] Computer says: Two Tits Good, Two Balls Bad! Femi-nazi! Brown shirted mangina equivocating terrorist! Gender traitors! (etc, ad nauseum, or until it explodes under the CPU load of its masculine digital rage).

  98. Herbie

    31 Jul, 2011 - 4:26 pm

    The culture of misandry that is so readily evident in media and indeed in public policy is the key to all this.
    .
    Feminism, at least in the sense that Jon and Tech understand it, isn’t that important. It’s ancilliary to this misandry. It enables and provides a vehicle and so on but it’s not the cause in itself, even though many feminists exhibit misandry themselves.
    .
    I don’t believe that feminists will ever control the world but they’re certainly an assistance to those who do.
    .
    That’s the point.

  99. Suhayl Saadi

    31 Jul, 2011 - 4:28 pm

    “traitors to the human race” Jimmy Giro.
    .
    Are you suggesting that we all are in the pay of aliens from the Planet Mangina (in the Femi-Nazi-Marxi Cute Cat Quadrant of the Andromeda Galaxy)?
    .
    Now, here’s a question:
    .
    Do you enjoy Orangina?
    .
    Well, on the plus side, unlike Alfred and his pals of the Rabid Right (interestingly, the current deluge hereabouts) at least you seem to suggest/ acknowledge that humanity is all one ‘race’. And that is something. Btw, what are your views on the hypotheses of the Far Right and what are your thoughts on the massacre in Norway, Breivik, Geller, the EDL, etc.? Give us your thoughts, O Giro.

  100. technicolour

    31 Jul, 2011 - 4:43 pm

    herbie: “I don’t believe that feminists will ever control the world but they’re certainly an assistance to those who do.”

    that was presumably why Heseltine warned the Greenham Common women that they could be shot on sight when peacefully invading the base; why the founders of Greenham Common had their mail intercepted and their families threatened; why Anna Politskvaya was shot by the state; why Petra Kelly was found dead under as they say ‘suspicious circumstances’; why the Daily Mail consistently attacks feminists; why the Sun presents women as a pair of tits, and on and on and on.

    You are right, Herbie, in that the ‘ordinary man’ is also constantly laughed at and belittled by *advertisers* (when not being expected to be some kind of razor wielding god); and that relationships between the genders are now commodified in the right wing press to the point where cynicism and suspicion rule. JimmyGiro is adding his dose of bile too, though less successfully, on this board at least. One wonders how he treats the women around him. But for an understanding of ‘feminism’ which I fear you are currently lacking, I suggest you go and look at the history and the cultural conditions which fostered it and what feminists are ‘against’ – violence being one of the main issues. No feminist has ever killed anyone, to my knowledge. Incidentally, women, and feminist women, were, like most men, overwhelmingly against the illegal attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq; not surprising, but hardly, again, supporting an agenda of the state.

  101. Herbie

    31 Jul, 2011 - 5:18 pm

    The point really is that Greenam Common feminism and the other mostly positive feminisms to which you refer are not the ascendant form of feminism. Feminism has always had an element of misandry, often forceful but sometimes careless and casual.
    .
    It is this aspect of feminism which is now in the ascendant.
    .
    You mention the Daily Mail, a paper that is aimed at women. The Daily Mail will always attack positive feminisms but has no problem celebrating that misandrist aspect of feminism, and does so quite explicitly. This is of course why very obviously reactionary women can claim to be feminists.
    .
    Naomi Wolf describes it as “pimping feminism”, but it’s all sadly a damn sight worse than that. Feminism has simply been incorporated by the powers that be to their own purpose. That’s often what happens.
    .
    There’ll still be, of course, those feminists who take a progressive approach but they’ll be sidelined in favour of reactionary feminism and most observers will not understand the difference, since it’s the most vulgar form and aspects of a complex discourse that are highlighted.

  102. Jon

    31 Jul, 2011 - 5:55 pm

    Hi Herbie,
    .
    Well, if we’re talking about moderate sex-positive feminism (or plain liberalism, as some would have it), I think Technicolour presents a good historical reason for its importance above. For the avoidance of doubt some of my thoughts on it appear on this blog, a good while ago [http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/05/the_derek_walco/#comment-261371], where I set out my concerns that I think feminism sets out to solve.
    .
    Can you provide any source material for the suggestion that feminism (presumably the misandrist rather than the sex-positive kind) is being deliberately cultivated to aid the establishment?

  103. Jon

    31 Jul, 2011 - 6:08 pm

    Ah, your post to Technicolour crosses with mine. I applaud your recognising progressive feminism as a positive thing. It seems to me that you should therefore steer clear of claiming to oppose feminism, and instead you should say you oppose reactionaries, or whatever more appropriate phrase. Otherwise you’re in danger of being on record as opposing everyone who is fighting predominately for women’s rights, which I suspect is not what you want.
    .
    Of course capitalists will not object when the likes of Clinton is described as a feminist, but that label having been bestowed no more makes it true than it tars genuine feminism with Clinton’s right-wing brush. I would struggle to believe that Clinton cares passionately for the women of Afghanistan – for obvious reasons – as would anyone who describes themselves as progressive.
    .
    I would caution against mistaking powerful/aggressive females for feminists in general, in fact. I suspect that is the mistake Jimmy makes in analysing the misandry of the talk show video – it pains me to have to say that Sharon Osbourne is not a feminist, since it ought to be quite obvious!

  104. Frazer

    31 Jul, 2011 - 9:49 pm

    HarpyMax
    I have read your blog..spent 3 hours trawling through all your crap…I must say that you are incredibly boring and so biased that you make Craig look cool.
    Please take your views and shove them where the sun don’t shine…

  105. Suhayl Saadi

    31 Jul, 2011 - 10:02 pm

    Well, Jimmy, you haven’t told us what you think of Breivik. If you’d prefer, feel free to respond on one of the threads about the mass murder in Norway. Come on, Mr G, spot the question and give us your thoughts, man!

  106. earwicga

    1 Aug, 2011 - 2:37 am

    “Rape is a serious and deeply damaging crime. It is unique in the way it strikes at the bodily integrity and self-respect of the victim.” Baroness Stern, quoted from http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/06/silence_of_the_

    “There is nothing sacramental about rape that makes it different to murder” Craig Murray, quoted from his arse.

  107. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 3:00 am

    Suhayl Saadi begged: “Well, Jimmy, you haven’t told us what you think of Breivik.”
    .
    This ‘us’ you refer to, is it some kind of Borg collective, something of an homogeneous gloop that’s left when all the humanity is sucked out of the manginas by the sheer vacuum of their pointlessness?
    .
    Here you go girlfriend:
    .
    http://jimmygiro.blogspot.com/2011/07/anders-behring-breivik-new-marinus-van.html

  108. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 9:58 am

    Hi earwicga,

    Craig didn’t probably put it the right way, but I think the point that there are lesser and greater versions of the crime is the point being made – much like murder. I don’t think there is anyone here that would seriously suggest rape is not an awful crime.

  109. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 10:06 am

    I’ll have an Orangina if you’re buying, Suhayl. And don’t tell Jimmy I’m wearing a pink T-shirt today! Now where did I put my mankini, it’s here somewhere…

  110. Herbie

    1 Aug, 2011 - 3:31 pm

    The BBC is now a disgusting propaganda outfit which likes to trade on its comparatively virtuous past.
    .
    I just hope you’re not being too complacent with regard to the direction feminism has taken.
    .
    I’d be more convinced were I to hear more criticism by feminists of misandry in media and other places. They certainly seem well able to organise when there’s the slightest whiff of misogyny about.
    .
    It’s the casual misandry of someone like Laurie Penny which might give rise to concern, for example. She’s young, new, left and mainstream feminism. So when she’s at it, it appears misandry is central to mainstream feminism.

  111. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 3:41 pm

    Herbie,
    .
    Would you regard Laurie Penny as someone who is co-operating with the Establishment covertly? Or, has she been co-opted without her knowledge?
    .
    Can you give an example of her misandry which you believe is reasonably representative of mainstream feminism?
    .
    Thanks.

  112. Herbie

    1 Aug, 2011 - 4:04 pm

    The issue there is simply that Laurie Penny has engaged in casual misandry. She’s young, new, left and a mainstream feminist, is she not?
    .
    If she engages in it and feels easily and indeed casually enabled to do so then that would be a concern, would it not? She surely knows what contemporary feminist theory is about, doesn’t she?
    .
    Surely it would suggest that her friends and contemporaries see no problem with it too?
    .
    I didn’t see her criticised for it.

    “I’m probably looking for a female researcher, and if you have a background in feminism or activism, all the better. However, any males who wish to persuade me that they can do the job just as well, I’m open to all suggestions.”

    http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/01/filthy-assistant-required-please-help.html

  113. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 4:08 pm

    Herbie,
    .
    http://www.sossandra.org/erin-pizzey
    .
    When Erin Pizzey, a pioneer in women’s shelters, voiced none inflammatory criticism about feminism, hijacking the shelter movement, she was given death threats from the same women who later would be fronting the anti-abuse campaigns.
    .
    Erin Pizzey’s story will tell you everything you need to know about the actual mentality and tactics employed by these Marxist-Feminists.

  114. Herbie

    1 Aug, 2011 - 4:14 pm

    I knew about her story. It certainly does appear that those fronting contemporary feminism are not quite the sweetness and light that Jon and Tech would like to present them as.

  115. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 4:21 pm

    And if you want a single source, and gateway, to all the Marxist-Feminist issues worth knowing about, then check out one of the grand-daddies of the anti-feminist movement. The one and almost only, Angry Harry:
    .
    http://www.angryharry.com/

  116. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 4:40 pm

    Herbie, if I “present” feminism at all, my intention is to persuade you not to chuck the women’s-rights baby out with the sexist bath-water. I hope you don’t think, or intend to imply, that I am out to misrepresent what feminism is about.
    .
    The only Penny column I’ve read was about her being on an anti-cuts demo, and the resultant police violence. It was a great and honest piece, read by hundreds of thousands (Guardian website, I believe). But you’ve found somewhere on her blog, read by a few hundred people, a casual comment in which she makes a joke at the expense of men. I found it mildly ironic, but nevertheless one of her commenters pulled her up on it. I suspect you’re expecting her to be perfect, but – well – she’s human. On one reading is a silly thing for a feminist to say. Her greatest worry should be giving ammunition to her anti-feminist enemies, but should the Left be disowning her? Not on this evidence, no.
    .
    I’ve told jokes that are sexist, but I’m certain I’m not sexist. To my shame, I have probably told jokes that are racist, but I’m certain I’m not racist. If we classify Penny’s aside as misandrist, are we to assume she hates men through and through? Again, not on this evidence.
    .
    Does she have published, serious pieces where men are the target of hate or vitriol? Craig put up some pieces which he felt could be so categorised, but even he overstated their misandry, in my view. (The Ensler piece was an unreadable stream of consciousness, and I’m not sure why the Guardian saw fit to publish it, but that’s another problem).
    .
    I am really open to your perspective – I tried with Jimmy and largely received avoidance, as I’ve previously evidenced – so if you want to persuade me, as a left/liberal, that misandrist thought is taken seriously in the mainstream, I am all ears. Jimmy’s position is that “they” have taken over the schools and the health complex, presumably at someone’s behest, and I just don’t see the proof.
    .
    Whilst talking with Jimmy over the years, I have given way on various sub-points, such as the casual misandry in advertising. I find it frustrating too, and Technicolour has noted its existence. So moderate pro-feminists are agreeing that misandry exists, and that it is unpleasant. But the jump from that to the idea that men need to be replaced/removed/defeated, and the control of major institutions, is presently without evidence, as far as I can see.

  117. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 4:45 pm

    I’ve read the Angry Harry website, and it is irredeemably awful. The writer’s chief defence to his vitriol is a parallel of the racists’ complaint: “They call me misogynist, no freedom of speech these days, etc”. Of course, such a response would be very useful to genuine misogynists, regardless of what one thinks of this particular writer!

  118. Herbie

    1 Aug, 2011 - 5:15 pm

    Jon
    .
    That defence would not have much traction were the issue misogyny by a male leftist.
    .
    I’m sure you’d agree that nothing short of the most abject apology, resignation and long lonely exile would suffice.
    .
    But anyway, it’s the discursive culture of misandry that is the worry. Often it’s dismissed as trivial, as of course casual misogyny was dismissed in the past, but it’s precisely that cultural misandry which eases the path to institutional misandry.
    .
    I agree that it’s the extent to which that has happened which is of course the central concern.
    .
    I suppose the real question then becomes to what extent do we see misandry in the institutions of Health, Employment, Education, Law and the family etc.
    .
    Perhaps Laurie and her new intern might like to research these issues for us. I look forward to it. I’d like to think there may even be research funding available for such important work, though I do have my doubts.

  119. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 5:31 pm

    > That defence would not have much traction were the issue misogyny by a male leftist.
    .
    That’s a fair point. I’ve acknowledged the cultural double-standard to Jimmy several times, and above too, but it falls far short of providing evidence to the questions I’ve put forward.
    .
    My question still stands, of course: do you have better evidence to show that Penny is a man-hater? Such as, an article, or a considered piece on her blog, etc?
    .
    > I agree that it’s the extent to which that [i.e. institutional misandry] has happened
    > which is of course the central concern.
    .
    Well, that is the question: “is there institutional misandry, and if there is, to what extent has it entered the institutions?”. Which is why I was interested in your view as to whether feminists are co-operating with the Establishment covertly, or whether they have been co-opted without their knowledge. For the prescription of Ritalin to in reality be an establishment plan to drug boys, the conspiracy would have to be huge, and completely secret – without any whistleblowers in the whole of the country. Is this your thesis?
    .
    Incidentally, what do you make of the Angry Harry website? Do you support that project?
    .
    > of course casual misogyny was dismissed in the past
    .
    Indeed, but then you aren’t comparing like with like. Misogyny reinforced (and reinforces) male dominance – whereas misandry appears to be a hollow capitalist replacement for female emancipation, as I’ve noted to Jimmy in the past.

  120. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 5:37 pm

    > I’d like to think there may even be research funding available for such
    > important work.
    .
    I’d certainly be happy to see the creation of Men’s Studies (though you’ll have to forgive me – I believe there is a difference between Men’s Studies and Male Studies, and I don’t know what it is). I’m fine with the study of anything, providing it is done with positive intentions. However I should think that a number of people wishing to obtain funding for such a thing, or to study such a thing, should be willing to talk about misogyny, and to be open to the possibility that some of them may be suffering from it. I am entirely happy to apply the opposite condition to Women’s Studies, of course!

  121. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 5:41 pm

    jon: “Misogyny reinforced (and reinforces) male dominance – whereas misandry appears to be a hollow capitalist replacement for female emancipation, as I’ve noted to Jimmy in the past.” – exactly. So well put.

    Must disagree with “Her greatest worry should be giving ammunition to her anti-feminist enemies” though. Surely it should be continuing what she does best – first hand honest reportage of state brutality. Quite agree that any flippancy can be leapt on and used against her – but honestly, I wouldn’t give it any legitimacy. She is standing up for men and women in her main work – that should be obvious to all but the few so blinkered that they can’t see their own reflections.

  122. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 6:03 pm

    @technicolour -
    .
    Yes, I should have said, “Her greatest worry *in making such a remark* should be giving ammunition to her anti-feminist enemies”. But I agree, it is insignificant in the scheme of things, and certainly not her greatest worry! Indeed, I am similarly certain that her reports of state violence are not restricted in their concern to women.

  123. Herbie

    1 Aug, 2011 - 6:09 pm

    The issue isn’t to prove Laurie Penny as man-hater, as you put it. The issue is her casual use of misandry. It raises questions as to her bona fides in this matter. The fact that she is a young, new, left and mainstream feminist raises further questions as to how much misandry there is in contemporary mainstream feminism, a movement which knows precisely how misogyny and misandry work. I don’t believe she would be so stupid as to go on a full man-hating rant in public, but who knows what she says in private. All we have at the moment is a glimpse behind the veil, the mask if you will.
    .
    On the matter of institutional misandry there are many issues that do give cause for concern. You must take the Ritalin issue up with Jimmy. It’s not something that I knew about previous to his mentioning it.
    .
    I’m more concerned by how boys are falling behind in education, poor male healthcare and misandry in the family courts etc. and also issues of media misandry where men are often presented as stupid, of dubious intent and predatory etc. This is all quite worrying and we really do need some explanations as to why these things are happening.
    .
    There’s no secret about the above issues, and it does seem curious to me that anyone would seek to downplay them. To what purpose?

  124. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 6:22 pm

    Thanks Herbie;
    .
    I don’t claim to have read anything particularly worrying about male healthcare or boys performance in education, but am open to reading links if you have anything of interest.
    .
    On Ritalin, we’ve taken that up with Jimmy several times. On this board there is a widespread view that it is of concern, but not that it is in itself misandrist, and it is not my feeling that Jimmy’s repeated comments have much advanced our understanding of his view, or persuaded us of its validity. I’d nominally agree with your worry regarding the family courts, but again I’m not impressed with any view that it is organised and institutional.
    .
    I am in agreement with you that misandry is unhelpful, and there is a thin cultural layer of it that is acceptable at the moment. It doesn’t help the genuinely feminist cause at all. But I think assuming that Penny has a hidden motive, or that there is a movement deliberately orchestrated against men, is just jumping at shadows. We should look at it in all seriousness if good evidence comes to light, of course.
    .
    Meanwhile I am still curious what you think of the Angry Harry website.

  125. Herbie

    1 Aug, 2011 - 6:45 pm

    Jon
    .
    You surprise me. You really haven’t heard anything about the education system failing boys or that female healthcare is prioritised over that of males, in gender specific areas? You haven’t heard of the immense problems in the family courts?
    .
    I really do find that difficult to believe.
    .
    Had you heard about the problems in the Child Support Agency?
    .
    I’d be grateful if you concentrated on what I’m arguing rather than blogs I haven’t had time to read. It seems an unnecessary and quite dubious distraction to be perfectly honest.

    Tech
    .
    That’s an interesting defence of misandry.
    .
    Jody McIntyre is by far the better activist blogger to my mind, and one less given to error.
    .
    I expect that’ll be why he’s much less likely to be incorporated into the bosum of the BBC.

  126. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 6:57 pm

    Jon, Technicolour, Suhayl, and the all other members of the mangina-borg-collective,
    .
    What would you say if a male teacher recommended that a particularly chatty girl, were to be prescribed Rohypnol, so as to calm her down, and improve the education of herself and those she disrupts?

  127. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 7:06 pm

    Jody McIntyre’s blog is featured in the Independent.

    Despite your sad insults Jimmy, everything I have read about or seen of Ritalin predisposes me against it. I would never allow a child of mine to be put on it; male or female.

  128. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 7:08 pm

    NB Herbie, if you can’t be bothered to supply proof for or references to your own argument, then I fear you undermine it by such negligence.

  129. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 7:14 pm

    Technicolour wrote: “…everything I have read about or seen of Ritalin predisposes me against it. I would never allow a child of mine to be put on it; male or female.”
    .
    Yet you will defend a culture of Marxist-Feminism that prescribes it to over a million boys of other families!? And don’t blame big pharma for choosing mostly boys, as they would not have an incentive to reduce their gain by neglecting to abuse girls with the drug also.

  130. Herbie

    1 Aug, 2011 - 7:23 pm

    Tech
    .
    No references are needed to be surprised at Jon’s ignorance of the problems in boys’ education nor indeed male healthcare, nor the problems in the Family court nor previous problems with the Child Support Agency. Jon proffesses to be interested in feminism and these are crucial areas of feminist involvement.
    .
    It’s much much too surprising that Jon is unaware of the issues I’ve raised.
    .
    Your intervention does nothing to ameliorate my surprise. I’m afaid it does nothing more than confirm it.
    .
    I wasn’t aware that The independent was owned by the BBC, but I do note you fail to address problems in Laurie’s approach over that of Jody.
    .
    It’s almost as if some feminists are so rash that they’ll destroy the left critique all on their own, if that hasn’t happened already.

  131. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 7:41 pm

    I will listen to you, Jimmy, when you express similar concern over girls and women being put on anti-depressants. Otherwise you are either just exploiting the medication of boys for your own twisted purposes, or acting as a (possibly unwitting) agent of pharmaceutical companies by seeking to obscure the real scale of the chemical drugging of our children.

    herbie: Jon politely asked for references. I second him: to which problems do you refer? I am aware of problems for both genders, for all ages, in all areas. Perhaps this universal, non-sexist critique is beyond you? Since you deliberately overlook the point about Jody McIntyre: that he is no more or less marginalised than Laurie Penny in the ‘mainstream’, it may well be.

  132. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 7:46 pm

    Heh, Herbie – in your enthusiasm to be mystified at my post, you misread it. I said: “I’d nominally agree with your worry regarding the family courts” i.e. I share your concern, though I believe I would disagree with your reasons for it. I should have added that I would go far as to say that there is a cultural preference for mothers, which I think is a subconscious legacy of the sexist division of roles: mother as carer, father as provider. I agree that this should be looked into.
    .
    But it does not invalidate my response, which is that there is no proof of an orchestrated conspiracy against men, which seeks to deprive fathers of their children arbitrarily, to drug young boys and so presumably to stunt their development, to deliberately provide better public healthcare to women, and so forth.
    .
    On female preference to healthcare, and the failing of boys at school, I am not certain I am aware what you mean. Maybe you mean prioritising breast cancer over testicular cancer? Girls outperforming boys at certain ages? Ratios of boy to girl school expulsions? I am guessing here! Again, if you provide references or sources, or otherwise describe these things more exactly, I will be pleased to say whether I have heard of them before.
    .
    I have fully engaged with your points, though I notice that my key questions remain unanswered. In particular, do you regard all of these topics as evidence of an organised conspiracy? It should be an easy enough question to answer. Likewise, I am keen to know whether you regard Penny and other feminists as involved with such a plan, or whether they are unwitting dupes to a cause they are unaware of. I am not trying to trap you – I simply need to know your position in order to engage with it.
    .
    Having answered all your points earlier, I proceeded to ask about the Angry Harry website to see what you thought of it. It was not at all intended to be distractive, but to measure whether you are as sensitive to misogyny as you are to misandry. That Jimmy recommends it is a substantial discredit to his position, but then he has failed to engage so often I am not quite sure what to make of his purpose. You make some valid points, but I am not sure I would recommend you taking him on as a forum wing-man!

  133. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 8:15 pm

    Herbie,
    .
    You’ve been ‘glooped’ by the borg-manginas. They beg your engagement, yet they never actually engage in any clear standpoint themselves, but drivel equivocations and ambivalences; for they have no vested engagement in the living purposeful heterosexual world.
    .
    To the mangina-collective, the real world , and its inconvenient facts, are the harbingers of lives un-lived; for they are neither man nor woman, they recoil from the warmth of humanity as though it was the ghost of their own sought after oblivion. They are the grateful dead amongst the living, until they feel the warmth of purpose, then they shriek like howling banshees, and run into the arms of their collective borg-ambivalence, safe from living, though still curious enough to stick their heads up from the borg-anus, to exude feminism.

  134. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 8:21 pm

    Thanks Jimmy. Not very helpful though, and my points stand. Perhaps your intention here is to disrupt rather than to engage?
    .
    All: incidentally, I’ve read a little of Jody McIntyre’s writing, and I think he is excellent too. I am not sufficiently well read of him or Laurie Penny, however, to think one more valuable or honest than the other.

  135. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 8:42 pm

    Tecnicolour squawked: “I will listen to you, Jimmy, when you express similar concern over girls and women being put on anti-depressants.”
    .
    They seek these things, for Marxist-Feminism denudes them of purposeful heterosexual life. With men denounced as dangerous and beneath them, the female is left in the un-living world of androgyny; with her human sexuality for ever mocking her ambitions within the feminist-borg-collective; her soul is torn and scared. So she seeks solace in the living death ambivalence of the drugged stupor.
    .
    Boys, on the other hand, do not seek to be prescribed Ritalin; they are definitely put upon.

  136. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 8:44 pm

    “the warmth of humanity”: fail to see yours, Jimmy, until you engage with the drugging of your own daughters. Do you have daughters?

  137. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 8:47 pm

    “They seek these things”

    You liar.

    The ‘un-living world of androgyny’ – man, you are mad. I mean that. In fact, you could even be a woman, albeit one equally twisted beyond belief. Are you a woman, Kimmy?

  138. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2011 - 8:50 pm

    For the sane people out there; this person obviously neither has sons or daughters, otherwise they would know that the tenderness of dating still exists, and love still exists, between our young people, of whichever persuasion. Thank goodness for those young people, and down with the deathly hand of projection so accurately portrayed by someone who wants to create nothing but divide – and possibly rule. The sad thing is, they kill themselves in this terrible attempt at a useless protest. Are you alone, J/Kimmy?

  139. JimmyGiro

    1 Aug, 2011 - 9:04 pm

    Technicolour winced: ““the warmth of humanity”: fail to see yours, Jimmy…”
    .
    Like moths to the flame, the mangina is both disgusted yet fascinated by the fire of men. Could it be the nagging residue of their long lost manhood, dimly silhouetted in their dark past, like the fading grin of the Cheshire cat.
    .
    The only living the mangina can muster, is to default heterosexual life itself, hence that need to find it in men’s scorn; and like demented suffragettes, they fling themselves under the galloping hooves of humanity.

  140. Jon

    1 Aug, 2011 - 9:42 pm

    Heh, heh – excellent Jimmy! For some reason I was not quite so amused by your earlier intervention, which rambled somewhat; but now you are settled back, poetically, into the realms of the truly absurd, and dare I say it – madness – I am laughing heartily again. I can only surmise, in answer to my earlier ponderance, that you are here to provide entertainment, for you certainly have no inclination towards persuading people of the worth your views. I wonder, is this board set up to render an emoticon for applause?
    .
    In any case, my suggestion that Herbie not associate himself too closely with your position is well borne out.
    .
    Anyway, I digress. I shall let my previous questions to you stand, not so optimistically as a reminder for the questions you leave unanswered, but for raw material to feed into the Marxist-Feminist Computer, to see what wonderful rubbish its angry and resentful circuits might pop out!
    .
    > http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/07/thoughts-on-feminism/#comment-317414

  141. Herbie

    2 Aug, 2011 - 3:06 pm

    Jon
    .
    I’m not sure why you keep going on about conspiracies. It reminds me of that Aaronovitch tactic to deflect criticism and I suspect few on this board take him seriously.
    .
    Surely when feminists achieved power in public policy all they had to do was implement what they might term “female friendly” policies. There’s nothing controversial nor conspiratorial about that. They’re quite open about it. It’s no secret. They were rebalancing what they claimed were pro-male policies.
    .
    Is it your position that this hasn’t happened?
    .
    You’re surely not arguing that feminists haven’t been involved in changing public policy in the areas of Health, Education and Law etc?
    .
    It would be totally bizarre to make such an argument, and yet that appears to be what you’re trying to do – to distance feminism from any responsibility for the outcomes in these areas.
    .
    The point of course is that if these outcomes are negative for males then we’d need to scrutinise the feminist policies which are responsible for them and amend as necessary.
    .
    That seems quite sensible to me and I don’t understand why you’d have a problem with it.

  142. Jon

    2 Aug, 2011 - 5:07 pm

    Calm down, Herbie, I wasn’t attacking you. It really is better to take me on good faith, else there is little point in having a discussion. I only “go on” about things for as long as a question remains unanswered, so you might have saved me a great deal of typing by responding to the conspiracy point several rounds earlier!
    .
    From my little reading of anti-feminism websites, and from Jimmy’s posts, I sometimes suspect an implication of conspiracy. Your suspecting Penny of an ulterior motive seemed to point to a confirmation of such a thesis. However, if you don’t subscribe to such a view, fine; your reply takes me closer to an understanding of it.
    .
    I am in agreement with you that female friendly policy sometimes exists, and no, it is not my intention to suggest that this has not happened. I don’t think I’ve ever suggested it has not. Similarly, I am all in favour of improving the situation for everyone, men included.
    .
    That would put us somewhat in agreement in general, but for a few points:
    .
    * In what sense are feminists an assistance to those who wish to run the world? I agree with Craig in a limited sense, in that some feminist talking heads may be inclined to believe a rape victim regardless of the circumstances, and so judge against men who progressives perhaps should be supporting. But I would reiterate that such a thing should not lead us to reject women’s rights, or to attenuate the improvement of circumstances for (predominantly female) rape victims. If there is something that “can be done” about knee-jerk assumption that “he dunnit” when it comes to rape – without reducing freedom of speech – then I am all ears.
    * Additionally, I think it is important to avoid misogyny, especially if one campaigns against misandry. For example, your aside of “siren scream of harpies” might be seen in the same light as the statement you objected to from Penny.
    .
    I think it is important to take a balanced approach in these things. Which is why Technicolour is equally concerned about the over-prescription of anti-depressants to women as compared to the over-prescription of Ritalin to boys – and Tech was right to insist that others agree with both points. It is for this reason that I criticised Jimmy’s endorsement of a virulently misogynist website – because the cure for practice that is harmful to males is not more misogyny.
    .
    A contributor earlier was certain that women are a substantially advantaged group, but in terms of political and professional involvement and representation, I disagree. I am happy to see source material pointing to alternative perspectives, however. Is there any academic work on your hypothesis that males are disadvantaged in educational and health terms? Again, I should be happy to read them.
    .
    I should think that on Ritalin, which is about over-prescription rather than an attack on boys in particular, there is bound to be pressure groups in existence who campaign to change that situation. I don’t know much about this topic, but broadly they would have my support. Ditto work on improving equal access for both parents to children in the family courts.

  143. Herbie

    2 Aug, 2011 - 6:21 pm

    I don’t see why you’re still going on about conspiracy. Feminists have got into positions of power where they can influence and even direct public policy across a wide range of areas. No conspiracy necessary. I’m even not sure I know what a conspiracy in this area would look like. It’s simply a case of feminists in power doing feminist things.
    .
    The issue is whether or not these feminist policies have negatively impacted males in the population, and if so how do you amend these policies to ensure that doesn’t continue.
    .
    On the matter of misandry in general and there does appear to be a whole lot of it about, much more than even I’d imagined, don’t forget that violent misandry and slogans of that nature were the rallying cries for earlier feminism. There’s so much misandry about today indeed, that that’s where the focus ought to be in challenging it. Instances of mysogyny are rare by comparison to the wall-to-wall misandry that pervades our culture. Even the deep disturbing violent misandry of a Sharon Osborne or the Facebook gang of violent misandrists is not challenged where minor instances of supposed mysogyny are trumpeted to high heaven.
    .
    That’s where the power imbalance lies!
    .
    It’s within a culture like that that increasingly anti-male policies can be enacted, because there’s so little discursive resistance. Men are by nature dubious, bad, predatory and need to be contained. That’s the message that feminism has created.
    .
    If you’re clear however, that it would be appropriate to remedy these feminist policies and discursive practices to ensure more equal treatment for men then that is fine, at least for the purposes of this discussion.

  144. Jon

    2 Aug, 2011 - 6:40 pm

    OK, well we’re mostly in agreement – perhaps I tend to emphasise the areas in which women’s rights need to be supported, and you tend to emphasise their male counterpart. I sense they’re hugely different dynamics, but we may have to disagree upon which suffers the greater discrimination.
    .
    I’d be willing to believe traditionalist role attitudes might affect family court decisions, and I see how that could be characterised as anti-male; though I still see the Ritalin/antidepressant issue as a capitalist rather than a feminist problem. But again I am happy to agree to disagree on that sub-issue.
    .
    > I don’t see why you’re still going on about conspiracy
    .
    I’m not going on about it – I was quoting you directly, and responding directly to that point:
    .
    > I don’t believe that feminists will ever control the world but they’re
    > certainly an assistance to those who do.
    .
    > There’s so much misandry about today
    .
    I suppose the core point I am making is that misandry has come about as a societal replacement for genuine female equality – and capitalism has either created it or latched onto it, for its own reasons. The thinking is: “hey, women don’t have the same chances in politics and in business as men, but that’s okay – have a laugh at silly chaps instead”. I agree that some of that comes from misandrists, but wherever it comes from, it is of course much easier to encourage than the wholesale social change that would be otherwise required!
    .
    Anyway, thanks for corresponding. It’s a useful learning process, I reckon :)

  145. JimmyGiro

    2 Aug, 2011 - 6:48 pm

    I’ve just finished an update on an analytical piece giving some details on how to measure the blatant employment bias by the public sector in the UK:
    .
    http://jimmygiro.blogspot.com/2008/04/measuring-real-bias-in-employment.html
    .
    I know how the manginas love detail; they’re for ever begging for it.

  146. Suhayl Saadi

    2 Aug, 2011 - 6:57 pm

    “Suhayl Saadi begged: “Well, Jimmy, you haven’t told us what you think of Breivik.”
    .
    This ‘us’ you refer to, is it some kind of Borg collective, something of an homogeneous gloop that’s left when all the humanity is sucked out of the manginas by the sheer vacuum of their pointlessness?
    .
    Here you go girlfriend…”

    James, by ‘us’, I simply meant the readers of this blog – four million, at the last count. What was I supposed to say? Perhaps, though, you regard yourself as wholly separate, superior, from, better than, the four million of ‘us’ ordinary people? “The people of the growing, deepening mangina-borg-collective”.
    .
    Yes! All four million of us coming with the resurrected Karl Marx (and Engels too), to eat you, James!
    .
    But thank you for providing the link to your thoughts on Breivik.
    .
    Are you an ex-Leftie, by any chance? There are so many and they often seem quite bereft. Perhaps you just need a good woman with a womb inside her to keep you warm.
    .
    Hush-a-bye baby…

  147. JimmyGiro

    2 Aug, 2011 - 7:42 pm

    “Perhaps you just need a good woman with a womb inside her to keep you warm.”
    .
    With that utilitarian measure of a ‘good woman’, I sense a disturbance in the Borg.
    .
    Would you recommend Harriet Harman for a good medicinal shag? On second thoughts, she’s already the un-wife of a stealth-mangina ‘husband’, Jack Dromey.
    .
    I’d hate the thought of bucketing out all his ambivalent mangina gloop from her lady bits.

  148. technicolour

    3 Aug, 2011 - 2:26 pm

    The saddest thing must be to have that kind of imagination and find it acceptable, and try and structure thoughts around it. Truly people with nasty minds create their own hell.

  149. Jon

    3 Aug, 2011 - 2:46 pm

    Hmm, yes. Nazis, harpies and manginas indeed – what a splendid facility for constructive engagement! Perhaps I shouldn’t laugh, but I find it is often my best antidote. Jimmy I hope won’t take offence – none is intended – if I note that I web-searched his nickname, and found that he has crow-barred his wonderfully worded nonsense into a variety of discussions around the interwebs, mostly where it was irrelevant anyway. Unsurprisingly, in most cases he receives a gratifying earful, much as he does here.
    .
    However there are a number of cases where he doesn’t get the short shrift he deserves – either on masculine support sites, or on the website of a Tea Party member. Readers may draw their own conclusions!

  150. Clark

    3 Aug, 2011 - 2:47 pm

    I think it likely that both misogyny and misandry are increasing along with the general fragmentation and isolationism of our society, which are both fueled by affluence. Too much telly and too little diverse human interaction. People get on better when they need each other.

  151. JimmyGiro

    3 Aug, 2011 - 7:18 pm

    Jon insinuated: “However there are a number of cases where he doesn’t get the short shrift he deserves – either on masculine support sites, or on the website of a Tea Party member. Readers may draw their own conclusions!”
    .
    Remind me which ‘Tea Party Member’ that is?
    .
    And of course, readers may draw their own conclusions, when they have THEIR understanding. Unlike manginas, which can never draw a conclusion, because they forbid themselves any understanding; for that would lead to dancing.

  152. Jon

    4 Aug, 2011 - 2:34 pm

    Clark, interesting – although I would add that the extremes of wealth generate friction. Ergo, whilst affluence can have a negative effect on mental health, poverty does so also – possibly more so. Negativism, anger and blame tend to increase when people don’t have their basic needs met. (Have you read The Spirit Level, by the way – it works on the thesis of wealth differences, and is a great read.)

  153. Clark

    6 Aug, 2011 - 6:07 pm

    Jon, I don’t think I’ve read The Spirit Level, though I’ve heard of its arguments and I think I’d probably agree if I read it. I agree that extremes of wealth differences create tension. Male – female relationships tend to occur within an economic group, whereas tensions created by economic disparity would be between different economic groups.
    .
    Yes, of course, poverty tends to makes everything worse for those who experience it. It’s a complex matter. A person can be in poverty in the UK while having economic resources that would be riches elsewhere. An affluent society makes greater economic demands even upon its poorest members. For instance, affluence permits price inflation, and the poor still need to find the additional money to buy necessities at inflated prices.

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