Beavering Away

by craig on January 24, 2012 10:50 am in Uncategorized

I am sorry there have been so few posts lately. I am terrifically busy. Yesterday I was up before dawn and back after midnight, having spent the day in Wales. Regular readers will realise that I am working on something I shan’t be able to blog about until it has come to fruition. I was most amused recently by a commenter who called me an “armchair critic.” I shall be in Germany, Brazil, Afghanistan and Ghana in the next two months.

Also I continue to dig into the extraordinary case of Adam Werritty and just why he was holding all those meetings with Matthew Gould, while Gould was Private Secretary to Miliband and then while he was Private Secretary to Hague, and then while he was UK Ambassador to Israel. I have new information, but as I am working on it with someone else quasi-mainstream I shan’t break it before they do. It is a story that really ought to be a television documentary, but given the mainstream media blackout, I was considering whether a podcast format might be a good way to get it further out there. But I need someone who can film it in a reasonably professional way, cutting in pictures, document extracts and interviews in a manner that looks good.

Any ideas or volunteers out there?

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233 Comments

  1. Dear Craig,

    I might be able to help. We two studio cameras here and video editing. What do you need and where? We are in W. Middlesex.

  2. Off Topic:

    Didn’t the investigation into uk torture complicity just get sidelined ad infinitum?

  3. Keep digging on Werritty. The man is an arse. Can’t help with podcast since no knowledge. But I want to see it when produced.

  4. I think Hammond is more of a threat to peace than Fox.
    .
    Here we go.

    .
    24 January 2012 Last updated at 11:35
    .
    Iran escalation ‘could see UK forces sent to Gulf’
    HMS Argyll was part of a US-led carrier group which passed through the Strait of Hormuz
    .
    An escalation of a dispute with Iran could see Britain sending military reinforcements to the Gulf, Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has said.
    .
    Sending HMS Argyll as part of an international warship flotilla through the Strait of Hormuz on Sunday was a “clear signal” to Tehran, he said.
    .
    Iran has threatened to close the strait in retaliation for sanctions against its oil exports.
    .
    In total, 35% of the world’s tanker-borne oil passes through the strait.
    .
    Asked if more resources could be sent to the region, Mr Hammond said: “The UK has a contingent capability to reinforce that presence should at any time it be considered necessary to do so.”
    .
    He was speaking at a London press conference following the annual round of talks between UK and Australian foreign and defence ministers
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16701013

    .
    Gillard is joining the embargo on Iranian oil btw.

  5. Thanks for the link Mary – HMS Argyll and a re-armed HMS Westminster shortly to take part in the plot to create an ‘incident’ in the Straits. I believe both ships have Farsi translators on-board.
    .
    HMS Westminster was involved in the evacuation of important British nationals from Libya, a country on the brink of civil war. Why? Because the NTC is corrupt, designed to foster America and Britain’s interests and not the interests of the Libyan people, they made that mistake in Iraq.
    .
    While Russia supplies arms to Syria, India and China are exchanging gold for Iranian oil, circumventing EU sanctions and Russia is blessed with more demands for her energy resources as a result. Good!
    .
    Meanwhile Iran is feverishly building S-300 anti-missile systems from Russian blueprints.
    .
    Gold is achieving dominance over the corrupt financial systems; a cancerous growth of market manipulation that has eroded the normal banking systems and now feeds the elite war mongers plans and coffers.
    .
    Thus we move nearer to another war, a nuclear war that must rid our world of the greedy bastards eyeing dominance, control, suppression of freedoms, police states, surveillance, DNA at birth and biometric implants.
    .
    OK so you think I am a nutter? – notice how ‘Occupy’ has been savagely put down? Notice how the people of Bahrain, Saudi, Egypt, Yemen et al. have been denied freedom? Notice the ‘divide and rule’ in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq – the murder of scientists in Iran, the use of cyber-terror and impending laws to restrict Internet knowledge?
    .
    I say prepare, prepare, prepare for the long haul to death or liberation.

  6. OK so you think I am a nutter?
    .
    Yes.

  7. Rhisiart Gwilym

    24 Jan, 2012 - 2:39 pm

    Whoops! Soba walked straight into it again. Silly bugger!

  8. I edit video for a living but I live in Tokyo.

    If you want a professional looking job doing you need to go to a professional. If your information is sensitive I’d stick with people you know personally. You might get lucky and get someone who will work pro bono, but most pros know pro bono jobs tend to spiral out of control and end up taking a huge amount of time. The discipline of working within a budget and to a schedule always gives a better end product.

    Your first job is to come up with your overall scenario, and a storyboard. Simplest format, introduction outlining what the piece will be about, the main body, your interviews & documents, and your conclusion. Set an overall time you are aiming for, and I’d recommend keeping it as short, focussed and concise as you can. Avoid “what if”,”could it be” “wouldn’t it mean that” etc

    For filming at least you need at least a decent cameraman, lights man & sound guy, and someone to direct. Might seem odd to need a director for something like this but someone has to have the overview of the whole piece so each specialist can stay focussed on their job. Make sure your interviews are focussed, the interviewee has seen the questions first and had time to prepare answers. The more source material you have the more time you have to spend watching it, and time goes by in multiples when you are editing.

    You then need to edit down your interviews, add in your documents, and probably add some voice over, which means access to a decent narration booth, or at least somewhere quiet and a decent quality field recorder. A good editor can do all this (I do it all the time), but be warned, editing can take a long time,depending on the material 3 minutes of video can take anything from and hour to 7 hours to finish. Normal process is to do a rough cut first, no frills, line up your material, watch it, decide if it makes sense, cut out the chaff.

    Avoid the trap of being sucked into your own little world, you know what it is all about, it will make sense to you but it may not make sense to others. So take a break, sleep on it, come back and watch with fresh eyes. Best of all find someone you know and trust to watch it and give you an honest appraisal. Don’t take their criticism personally.

  9. @Mary, Australia’s oil import from Iran is almost nothing! so as usual they are kissing butts of American friends.

  10. > I shall be in Germany, Brazil, Afghanistan and Ghana in the next two months.
    .
    Nice to see your work in Ghana is still on-going. But this nosey-parker is curious as to what you’re doing in those other countries!

  11. I edit video for a living, but I live in Tokyo.

    I have found pro bono jobs always spiral out of control and produce sub standard results. The discipline of working to a budget and schedule always makes for a better end product. If you have no money you can try willing volunteers, but it will cost you and them time. You might get lucky and find a hands on director type person, but good cameramen, lightsmen, sound guys and editors don’t work for free, though they are sometimes volunteered to do so by someone above who enjoys warm feeling of donating other peoples time, skill and resources.

    The time spent editing will increase by multiples of the amount of material you have. Generally the better prepared you are before you start, the quicker the edit will be. Every minute of material is at least a minute to import, a minute to watch, a minute to check, a minute to export, a minute to check again, so one minute becomes five without any decision making, colour correction, sound syncing, titling etc etc etc. You can spend an hour on three minutes of video, or you can spend 20 hours.

    Your first job is to write a scenario, then storyboard it : introduction, what the film is about, main body, (your interviews and evidence), and your conclusion. Aim to be concise, enough detail to convince, not so much to confuse. Avoid the “what if” format so beloved of the tin foil Mayan Inca Atlantis style of “documentary”, but you need an overall point of view, your argument, be brutal in cutting anything, however interesting, which does not relate to the main point.

    You will probably need a voice over to hold it all together. In this case I guess you will write your script after you have conducted & reviewed your interviews. Narration is a lot harder than it seems, if you are not a pro it is hard to read someone else’s words and make them sound natural.

    Make sure your interviewees have seen the questions before you film, and keep the interviews brief, the physical comfort of the subject is important, don’t keep them waiting, set up, use a stand in to get the light, sound, angles and focus set, then have them sit down & do the interview. If you are doing a Q&A format try not to talk over them, harder than you think when people need response to keep talking. Smiling, nodding and gesturing helps. Keep the interview short and focussed, the more material you have, the more you have to edit, the longer it all takes.

    Avoid being sucked into your own little world, the more you edit the material the more it makes sense to you and the less it makes sense to everyone else, it’s always good to have a fresh pair of eyes watch it at intervals. Do one rough cut, line up your material, watch it, take a break, watch it again, edit it down, watch it again, get some sleep, watch it again the next day, if it still makes sense polish it. Don’t get emotionally attached to edited sequences just because they took time to get “right”.

    You can spend months working on things like this, but generally the best results are achieved when you do something within a set time frame, and have a third party whose opinion you trust to watch it dispassionately at intervals, two or three times during the editing process.

  12. As editors and camera operators have already offered their services.. I am a musician and composer who has a good audio rig and would be willing to contribute for free. So, should you need any kind of soundtrack, ambient or otherwise, please let me know. I can compose, mix and master audio files – three jobs for the price of nowt as I know this is worth it. I’ve done documentaries, short films, jingles and audiobooks. Mr John above makes some great points.

  13. doug scorgie

    24 Jan, 2012 - 4:23 pm

    Mary
    “I think Hammond is more of a threat to peace than Fox.”
    I don’t think it matters who the defence secretary is; the plans for war, I believe, were well advanced before Fox resigned and are now set in motion. Britain is playing its part by sending the navy into the Gulf. We also have about 10,000 troops in Afghanistan plus fighter jets.

    An increase of US forces from 10,000+ to 25,000+ in Kuwait; battleships and aircraft carriers in the area; thousands of US troops, aircraft, helicopters and missiles now in Israel for a pre-planned military “exercise” with the IDF.
    It is highly likely that some Arab states like Saudi-Arabia will also join in with the military hardware supplied by the US.

    Also the Russians think that the US and its allies are going to engage militarily in Syria, not because of concern for protesters but because of Syria’s close ties to Iran. (Daily Telegraph 12/01/12).

    So war with Iran seems a certainty now. I believe Israel will fire the first shot, maybe after a false flag operation. This would allow Obama to claim that the US was dragged into the war and had no choice but defend Israel.

    I just hope I’m wrong but if not I hope that our Prime Minister, Cameron and the rest; Fox, Werrity, Gould, Hammond and Hague are held accountable for what transpires.

    Another thing that concerns me is the possibility of an all out attack on Gaza by Israel (while the Iran conflict gets all the media attention) in order to eliminate Hamas and cleanse the strip of Palestinians and annex the land for Jewish only settlers.

  14. Just out : Indian ‘India to buy Iran oil in gold not dollars’
    and China is to follow suit, this expect to push the price of Gold up and dollor down. God help Iran, the war seems inevitable now.. This is something which USA would fight to death for , to keep dollar as the world currency for trade.

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/222857.html

  15. Doug, agree with most, but a possible/likely attack on Ghaza to cleanse it of Palestinians would surely be a Ghaza Holocaust, would it not?
    Re taking the Ghaza strip for its gas reserves off the coast would be another likely explanation of such deadly folly.
    israel is harrassing hamas all over the place, arresting MP and long standing campaigners within the grounds and independent territory of the International Red cross in jerusalem and at road blocks, anything to stall the impending unity of the two factions.

  16. Doug. Hope you are wrong about the build up but fear you are not. I meant that Hammond is more gabby than Fox and seems to be more than willing to be the voice of Cameron et al not just on this but on Libya and Syria too. A creep. The great British public haven’t got a clue what is going on nor seem to care. It’s the price of petrol that is newsworthy today.

    Ingo. They have already had their greater shoah (holocaust) on Gaza, ie Cast Lead, as promised by Vilnai. Total annihilation is what they want but would they dare?

  17. “@Mary, Australia’s oil import from Iran is almost nothing! so as usual they are kissing butts of American friends.”
    ,
    I am afraid, the butts they kiss are closer to home, those colonies as yet have not learnt how to tack an independent course.
    ,
    This ought to clarify the point Their speech was probably faxed to them from No. 10.

  18. Craig – some of your productivity tips would be great to read sometime. But i suspect you are an industrious one because you take care of traction and momentum ~intuitively.
    .
    This just up – “Julian Asssange to host own tv show”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jan/24/julian-assange-host-tv-show
    .
    Tony12 are you responsible for the noisy campaign of TonyOPMOC drunken spleen posts? – His help would likely not be free – of more creepily unrestrained woozey ramblings.

  19. “thousands of US troops, aircraft, helicopters and missiles now in Israel for a pre-planned military “exercise” with the IDF” — Doug Scorgie
    .
    But that’s been called off. (So did they go there at all?)

  20. Has anyone seen any MSM reports about an American newspaper editor publicly suggesting in his US newspaper that Israel should assassinate Obama?
    .
    http://gawker.com/5877892/

  21. “Has anyone seen any MSM reports about an American newspaper editor publicly suggesting in his US newspaper that Israel should assassinate Obama?”
    .
    It was in Haaretz at least. Can’t comment regarding others.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/uproar-after-jewish-american-newspaper-publisher-suggests-israel-assassinate-barack-obama-1.408429

  22. Azra wrote: “This is something which USA would fight to death for, to keep dollar as the world currency for trade.”

    I think China has been slowly reducing its dollar holding (and buying gold?) for some time and the only thing that has kept to dollar is some strange buying in London. I hope it isn’t the UK Gov buying some soon-to-be useless paper.

    If someone knows more about this, perhaps the could clarify what is going on?

  23. ‘Iran sanctions, provocation for war’
    .

    Press TV has interviewed Jeff Gates, author of Guilt by Association from California about the oil embargo against Iran that Ron Paul the US presidential candidate terms an act of war and its possible effect on world oil prices. What follows is an approximate transcript of the interview.

    http://presstv.com/detail/222810.html

  24. From http://www.debka.com/article/21673/
    .
    “India is the first buyer of Iranian oil to agree to pay for its purchases in gold instead of the US dollar, debkafile’s intelligence and Iranian sources report exclusively. Those sources expect China to follow suit. India and China take about one million barrels per day, or 40 percent of Iran’s total exports of 2.5 million bpd. Both are superpowers in terms of gold assets.
    .
    By trading in gold, New Delhi and Beijing enable Tehran to bypass the upcoming freeze on its central bank’s assets and the oil embargo which the European Union’s foreign ministers agreed to impose Monday, Jan. 23. The EU currently buys around 20 percent of Iran’s oil exports.
    .
    The vast sums involved in these transactions are expected, furthermore, to boost the price of gold and depress the value of the dollar on world markets.
    Iran’s second largest customer after China, India purchases around $12 billion a year’s worth of Iranian crude, or about 12 percent of its consumption. Delhi is to execute its transactions, according to our sources, through two state-owned banks: the Calcutta-based UCO Bank, whose board of directors is made up of Indian government and Reserve Bank of India representatives; and Halk Bankasi (Peoples Bank), Turkey’s seventh largest bank which is owned by the government.
    .
    An Indian delegation visited Tehran last week to discuss payment options in view of the new sanctions. The two sides were reported to have agreed that payment for the oil purchased would be partly in yen and partly in rupees. The switch to gold was kept dark.
    .
    India thus joins China in opting out of the US-led European sanctions against Iran’s international oil and financial business. Turkey announced publicly last week that it would not adhere to any sanctions against Iran’s nuclear program unless they were imposed by the United Nations Security Council.
    .
    The EU decision of Monday banned the signing of new oil contracts with Iran at once, while phasing out existing transactions by July 1, 2012, when the European embargo, like the measure enforced by the United States, becomes total. The European foreign ministers also approved a freeze on the assets of the Central Bank of Iran which handles all the country’s oil transactions.
    However, the damage those sanctions cause the Iranian economy will be substantially cushioned by the oil deals to be channeled through Turkish and Indian state banks. China for its part has declared its opposition to sanctions against Iran.
    .
    debkafile’s intelligence sources disclose that Tehran has set up alternative financial mechanisms with China and Russia for getting paid for its oil in currencies other than US dollars. Both Beijing and Moscow are keeping the workings of those mechanisms top secret.”
    .
    ———
    .
    In other words, the US admin must be shitting itself (and getting very angry). Losing its special currency status will/would tank the US economy.

  25. doug scorgie

    24 Jan, 2012 - 6:59 pm

    Nuid
    “But that’s been called off. (So did they go there at all?)”
    Yes looks like it’s been postponed for a few months. I don’t know if any US troops are in Israel at the moment but US military hardware has been stockpiling in Israel since 2009.

  26. Good post Nuid – Alternate sources gives me confidence in my own intelligence.
    .
    btw Azra – sorry for the sat. install delay. I am waiting for information and then need to test this week before I can write the install and setup instructions.

  27. I’ve always felt that Obama was plucked out of obscurity and elevated to the Whitehouse, precisely because his ‘face’ could get away with an attack on Iran, something yet another; dumb, inarticulate, grey-haired, old, white dude, in the oval office would have extreme difficulty pulling off.
    .
    Will the Americans really provoke the Iranians into starting a war? This scenario is frighteningly similar to the way the US forced Japan into war by cutting off its supply of raw materials, especially oil, so the Japanese were under siege and had the choice of slow, economic, strangulation, or risking everything by attacking the US in the desparate hope that they could fight the US to a standstill and negotiate some kind of peace on favourable terms. Unfortunately the Japanese underestimated the ruthlessness of the Americans and their desire to expand even further across the Pacific into Asia, which brings us neatly back to the present and the prospect of war with Iran.

    .
    The US sees Iran as a vital route into Central Asia and the vast energy reserves it contains. A New Iran would form a collosal wedge of enormous strategic value between Russia and China and weaken both of them, in preparation for new wars of ‘liberation’ aimed at them and changing their regimes.

    The vital question for world peace is, will China and Russia simply allow the US to destroy Iran in preparation for what they must know is a coming attack on them? Can they really afford to let Iran, which functions as a buffer and protects them from direct conflict with the US, go down, or will they be forced to step in to protect Iran and their own vital national security interests? Which is where the WW3 nightmare comes into play.

  28. I was in contact with Iran today, apparently lots of people are writing to the Oil Minister asking him to stop exporting oil to EU, even if Iran has to pay a penalty for breaking of its contract.
    Some are calling for stopping any negotiations with the inspectors too. I don’t think in the west the idiot governments realize that it is now the matter of national pride for Iranian to support the government even those who are in opposition.

  29. @Mark Golding : No Problem! I am off to Iran soon in any case, so any satellite installation will have to wait until I come back

  30. “OK so you think I am a nutter? – notice how ‘Occupy’ has been savagely put down?”

    I agree with Angrysoba – if you want to see savage put downs might I suggest you look at Syria, where Assad among other attrocities has even shelled a Palestiniann refugee camp.

  31. Only having some fun, like games of the “guess the connection” type: What do Germany, Brazil, Afghanistan and Ghana have in common that C.M. should visit them all? One guess: GOLD! Hidden Nazi gold looted from their victims, the gold of the hidden city El Dorado, the hidden gold of Ahmad Shah, and Ghana was once called the “Gold Coast”, so I reckon there must be gold there somewhere.

    OK, now you have a go. :)

  32. Mark
    You’re nut a nutter

  33. Ben Franklin

    24 Jan, 2012 - 8:44 pm

    “Will the Americans really provoke the Iranians into starting a war? This scenario is frighteningly similar to the way the US forced Japan into war by cutting off its supply of raw materials, ”

    Really, Write-on? Don’t you want to change it to Write-out, you know, like out yer arse?
    It’s fundamental to include some corroboration to your ‘opinions’. Try some contextual history.

    http://edsitement.neh.gov/curriculum-unit/road-pearl-harbor-united-states-and-east-asia-1915-1941

    “Therefore the 1930s saw a steadily increasing campaign of Japanese aggression in China, beginning with the invasion of Manchuria in 1931 and culminating in the outbreak of full-scale war between the two powers in 1937. Each instance of aggression resulted in denunciations from the United States, but the administrations of the time—that of Herbert Hoover until 1933, and of Franklin D. Roosevelt thereafter-understood that there was no will on the part of the American public to fight a war in East Asia. Therefore U.S. policy by the late 1930s consisted of nothing more than a refusal to recognize Japanese conquests, limited economic sanctions against Japan, and equally limited military and economic assistance for China.”

  34. Will the US really attack Iran? All the indications are there, but the US doesn’t generally attack well armed countries. The last three were Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, all essentially undefended.
    .
    Can the US afford not to attack Iran? The US dollar is already well overstretched; if Iran stops selling oil in dollars the crash of the dollar moves much closer.
    .
    What happens if the US does attack Iran? The US nearly doubled its deficit attacking and occupying Iraq; Iran is, what, ten times better armed?

  35. Ben Franklin

    24 Jan, 2012 - 9:09 pm

    “Can the US afford not to attack Iran? The US dollar is already well overstretched; if Iran stops selling oil in dollars the crash of the dollar moves much closer.”

    As you may know, Saddam made the same mistake in 2000 when he threatened to require Euros.
    Oil is still King, long live the King. If you think cutting off oil is not threat to a Nation’s security, you aren’t paying attention.

  36. Dear Ben Franklin,

    I fail to see what relevance or context the extract you quote from has for understanding the reasons why the US government wanted to go to war with Japan… apart from making sure that Japanese imperialism didn’t go to far and create an Asian empire that might potentially undermine the plans the US had for their own expansion into Asia, and the really big prize, opening up China?
    .
    The war was triggered, not by limited sanctions aimed at Japan, but by an oil emargo designed to strangle Japan economically for its ‘crimes’ which seem to have been that the US didn’t want Japan to ‘take-over’ the juicy Chinese pie, a pie which the US had its own greedy eye on, and had, for decades, as it steadily expanding across the Pacific, which is why the US attacked the Spanish Empire, a fruit ripe for plucking, more valuable stepping stones towards Asia.
    .
    This is how rival empires behave. They grab what they can for themselves and push other weaker empires, or countries, aside. There’s nothing morally good about any empire, not even the American one.
    .
    There was, if one cares to do a bit of historical research, a peace party in Japan that didn’t believe that Japan could win a war with the United States and that Japan should seek a negotiated ‘deal’ to carve up the Asian pie with the United States. Unfortunately that faction was systematically undermined by the United States who didn’t want peace with Japan, but war, to expand the empire and turn Japan into a vassal state. The US wanted the military and nationalistic war-party to triumph in Japan as this would make war almost inevitible, a war Washington was convinced it would win.

  37. Ben Franklin, Iran’s threat to embargo oil is a response to sanctions; the cheapest, most effective way of solving this problem is to deal reasonably with Iran. Other options look, to me, like economic suicide for the US.
    .
    This is the crux of imperialism; the imperialist powers subvert the state against the interests of its people.

  38. Ben Franklin

    24 Jan, 2012 - 9:22 pm

    “most effective way of solving this problem is to deal reasonably with Iran.”

    Clark;

    Considering the bent spine of History between US/Iran, how would you proceed?

  39. One can argue that the US military was ‘defeated’ in both Iraq and Afghanistan, fought to a standstill by determined and lightly-armed militias.
    .
    But, if the object of these seemingly pointless and insane invasions and occupations, was to destroy these countries as states, and create an example, showing exactly what a high price one pays if one defies the empire and threatens its interests, then, arguably, the colossal material destruction and massive loss of life, was worth it. Though I suspect other countries that have valuable resources or a strategically important position, might have learnt a different lesson from the crimes committed in Afghanistan, Irag, Libya and elsewhere.

    But I do agree with Ben Franklin that all the wars we’ve seen recently have been fundamentally about access to and control of energy supplies, and the one’s that are coming will be about energy too.

    I think the Americans have a pretty obvious strategy, controling the routes, by land and sea, by which China fuels its economy and growth. Control China’s access to energy and raw materials, and ultimately one controls China, at least in theory, unless the Chinese decide to break the enciclement and challenge the US empire.

    Though most of my Chinese friends reckon this will take twenty to thirty years befor they are strong enough to seek parity with the US, to which I usually reply, do you really think Washington will give you twenty years?

  40. Ben Franklin: “how would you proceed?”
    .
    Well, a good start might be for Obama to live up to his election promises. But generally, commence negotiation in good faith.

  41. Ben Franklin

    24 Jan, 2012 - 9:31 pm

    Write-on;

    As you know this was an outgrowth of the Russo-Japanese War. Japan had some Imperialism of their own. The US never invaded China, except to rescue diplomats caught up in the Boxer rebellion, which was a response to the British control over opium. I think I object most to your projective ability to excuse the UK for it’s hegemony. I hear a lot of America bashing, but then, you probably stipulate British accountability.

  42. Ben Franklin

    24 Jan, 2012 - 9:33 pm

    “commence negotiation in good faith.”

    Clark; You see BOTH parties capable of accomplishing this simple equation?

  43. Writeon, depriving China of energy in the long-term may prove difficult; they intend to build some of these, that the US was silly enough to give up on in 1969:
    .
    http://energyfromthorium.com/essay3rs/

  44. Ben Franklin, yes, I think its possible. They both have too much to lose otherwise. Are you suggesting that the US is incapable of behaving rationally?

  45. Ben Franklin

    24 Jan, 2012 - 9:39 pm

    ” Are you suggesting that the US is incapable of behaving rationally?”

    I don’t know. I was hoping you could tell me.

  46. “I don’t know. I was hoping you could tell me.”
    .
    Now he DOES sound like Larry.

  47. The US would behave rationally if its leaders would stop tricking its voters. Same with the UK. I don’t think Writeon has any more respect for the British elite than that of the US. Sorry for so much US bashing, but I suppose whoever has the biggest stick has to expect that, the lesser powers just get somewhat forgotten.

  48. I think… though this is highly controversial and speculative… that the United States has become something pretty close to a form of military dictatorship, like when the Roman Republic died and the Roman legions became the real power in the empire.
    .
    Of course we may only fully realise this, the change from Republic to Empire, when we look back on events decades from now.

    Today the core of the empire the part of the US imperial state that functions properly, is the military, compared to almost any other part of society. The military is a kind of parallel state, or state within a state, with, increasingly, its own, separate culture, economy, and social structure. Obviously the social structure of the military isn’t characterised by being ‘democratic’, but is based on a rigid, semi-fuedal, form of hierachy, that many would describe as totalitarian.

    Increasingly the military, which has the closest links with the corporations and the political establishment, has ‘interests’ of its own that don’t necessarily follow those of the rest of civilian society, even though, in theory the military is under civilian control and is funded by civilian taxes.

    But increasinlgy the US military is on a different trajectory to the rest of society, almost like a parasite that has swallowed its host. The real economy is shrinking, living standards for ordinary Americans have fallen for decades, yet the military budget keeps growing and growing eating more and more of the national pie, because it ‘protects’ the people, and it’s this increasingly bizarre ‘social contract’ or relationship, that reminds me of the fuedal relationship between the medieval Knight class and the peasants.

  49. I certainly think that Iran would negotiate in good faith; they are considerably the weaker party, and their (limited) progress towards democracy (again) bodes well. Oh, there would be lots of screechy religious posturing against Israel, and Israel would respond with similar noises, but I think the oil could be kept flowing, because it is in the interests of both sides.

  50. I am certainly not bashing America or Americans, on the contrary, I like Americans and America. My second wife was American and two of my children live there. What I’m ‘bashing’ is ‘Washington’ and the ruthless, greedy, ‘ruling class’ that are destroying the ‘American Dream’ underming the futures of most people, wasting billions on foreign wars when the money would be better spent on creating jobs, raising living standards for working people, and re-building the country’s infrastructure instead.

    I think the country’s been taken over by what ammounts to an ‘aristocracy’ that’s supported by a military/industrial machine, and that rebublican democracy has been pushed aside by an empire, that for various reasons doesn’t give a damn about the ordinary folks in the US, and frankly doesn’t even need them anymore as it expands globally.

  51. Clark;

    ‘The US would behave rationally if its leaders would stop tricking its voters. ”

    Are you thinking this is a new phenomenon? That’s the way it’s always been. Why is there so many of the Elites trying to limit access to the internet? (SOPA/PIPA)

    They are getting their asses handed to them every day, because the old 24-hour news cycle is now 24 seconds and they don’t like to operate in the light of day. It’s very inconvenient to get calls from your constituency about your questionable legislative activity before you’ve actually accomplished the skullduggery.

  52. Thanks for clarifying, Writeon. I second that thought.

  53. Ben Franklin, no, the duplicity of the rulers (US and worldwide) is nothing new. However, it is becoming critically important.
    .
    Ben, a US attack on Iran looks like economic insanity to me, given what the attack on Iraq did to the US coffers. Do you think the US economy would survive? Is it not madness to even consider it?

  54. Anon 24 Jan, 2012 – 7:46 pm
    “OK so you think I am a nutter? – notice how ‘Occupy’ has been savagely put down?”
    I agree with Angrysoba – if you want to see savage put downs might I suggest you look at Syria, where Assad among other attrocities has even shelled a Palestiniann refugee camp.
    .
    Could we please have a source for that piece of black propaganda.

  55. Whilst the bloggers are naval gazing and asking will the war on Iran happen or will it not, thus pondering in the wake of the latest rounds of European sanctions on Iranian oil; Coryton is the elephant in the room.
    ,
    ,
    Billy fourteen pints, on his tour of the capitals practising his Churchillian poses forgot; thou shalt not shoot thine toe, edict. Hence, reiterating the extent of the inexperience of the current ruling coalition; falling victim to the machinations of zionist sponsors of Fox, Werrity, Gould. The drunk on power newcomers, would never have dreamt their grandstanding can come back to bite them on the arse so fast.
    ,
    Petroplus, Europe’s largest independent refiner, said it will file for insolvency as talks with lenders to resume funding failed. Lenders suspended about $1 billion of uncommitted credit lines in December and denied access to a further $1.05 billion of committed loans this month. That forced Petroplus to halt three of its European refineries and run the remaining two, in England and Germany, at reduced capacity.
    ,
    ,
    Have we witnessed the first sanction that hurt the “sanctioneers” before hurting the “sanctioned” could have been pulled off by the current shower masquerading as the ruling coalition?
    ,
    Given the tight credit environment and the degrees of risk aversion practises engaged in by the banking sector, the plug was pulled on Coryton. To further illustrate the point; refineries are designed for processing around the particular grades of hydrocarbons, and the impending shortages of the Iranian crude in the European markets, was the last straw that broke the back of the beleaguered lame group of refineries.
    ,
    You read this here first, no one else is even hinting at this story. Apparently, refiners can go bust for no reason everyday. This is to protect the incompetent bunch of bastards who thought they can swing their dick around and not get it caught in a mangle, well miscalculation or what?
    ,
    On the day the UK debt hits one trillion pounds (remind me what is our GDP), unemployment soaring, and bank of England presses are set to roll printing more fiat money to pay for the costs of the adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc. the news of people having to pay more for their fuel, because some tweets bought into the paranoia of a bunch of psychotic zionists somehow does not get out, and the punters are left to fathom it out on their own, in the media blackout.

  56. ” Is it not madness to even consider it?”

    Clearly. But the prime mover, Israel, seems now to be doubting their own intel, and last I heard was backing off the BOMB rhetoric. The Jewish lobby here is strong, and aided by End-Timers of the Christian Right (I throw-up a little in my mouth when I refer to them as ‘Christian) so Obama
    has been tickling the dragon’s tail to keep them mollified.

  57. Hmmm, “tickling the dragon’s tail” is what killed Louis Slotin:
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core#Second_incident

  58. There is obviously a knock on effect of the USUKIs confrontation with Iran, but Petroplus’s problems go back some time. They have been attempting to sell refineries and three in Europe were shut down on Dec 30. The smart alecs have come a cropper.
    .
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/swiss-refiner-petroplus-filing-for-insolvency-lenders-appoint-receiver-for-uk-refinery/2012/01/24/gIQAdgjsMQ_story.html
    .
    ‘Employees were working at the refinery as normal but no shipments of refined products were being made, a condition imposed by the lenders, Margrave said.
    .
    Refinery profitability has been squeezed as operating expenses and the cost of crude oil rose faster than the value of the products, and the economic slowdown in Europe has added to the pressure.
    .
    A survey by energy consultancy Wood Mackenzie in 2010 found that 29 of 96 refineries in the European Union did not generate a positive net cash margin.’
    .

    All part of the coming economic crash.

  59. Clark;

    I think ‘good faith’ needs to be shown by Iran. A good place to start would be the Parliamentary elections in March…

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/world/middleeast/boycott-by-reformers-could-undermine-elections-in-iran.html

    “Despite assertions by the leaders that reformist candidates will be allowed to participate in the parliamentary elections, to be held in March, the two principal reformist opposition figures in Iran, Mir Hussein Moussavi and Mehdi Karroubi, both former presidential candidates, remained under house arrest for most of 2011, their supporters say, and both are urging followers to stay away from the polls.

    Even Iran’s mildly reform-minded former president, Mohammad Khatami, who has not been treated as harshly by the government, said in December that reformist candidates would not run in the March elections. That would create a glaring gap that could prove worrisome in providing the appearance of a choice of candidates, and undermine the quest for legitimacy.

    “It was expected that the conditions would be granted so that the reformists could participate in the elections, but the conditions were not met,” Mr. Khatami was quoted as saying in Iranian news accounts.”

  60. Ben: “Israel seems now to be doubting their own intel, and last I heard was backing off the BOMB rhetoric.”
    .
    Got a link for that please?

  61. “Louis Slotin:”

    I suspect this is one of the most barbaric ways to die; worse than drawing/quartering or fire.

    link…..for Clark….http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-iran-still-mulling-whether-to-build-nuclear-bomb-1.407866

    The bad intel is my speculation…

  62. Mary,
    These latest batch of sanctions were not secret, and were known about in advance. This line; Lenders suspended about $1 billion of uncommitted credit lines in December and denied access to a further $1.05 billion of committed loans this month. Is the tell all.
    ,
    The last three weeks have been spent in a holding pattern and the axe then falls with the allocated and cleared funds “committed loans” getting pulled, upon the policy announcement.
    ,
    The very public casualty of the wrong foreign policy and no one is hinting at it. The extent of the departure from sanity seems to be unbounded.
    ,
    However, do any of the sponsors of Fox Werrity Gould, have refinery interests? Ought to be the next question that is asked.

  63. Ben, Iran is not a great threat to anyone; the US is a major threat to Iran. Yes, Iran’s internal power structures leave much to be desired. My personal belief is that Iran will continue to improve so long as no one interferes. It already has improved since the Ayatollahs; that’s pretty fast improvement in the time-scale of national development. The former, more functional Iranian democracy still exists in living memory; it would be a tragedy to eclipse that memory with a war.

  64. Sorry, I should clarify. I wrote: “Iran is not a great threat to anyone; the US is a major threat to Iran”. My point is that it doesn’t matter much if Iran negotiates in poor faith because Iran is not hugely powerful. The worst outcomes of a breach of faith by Iran would be far less damaging than either a war or an oil embargo.

  65. “Tony12 are you responsible for the noisy campaign of TonyOPMOC drunken spleen posts? – His help would likely not be free – of more creepily unrestrained woozey ramblings.”

    No. Too busy working most of the time. I am a much more simple soul. We do classical music videos, documentaries and interviews – mainly for the internet so we have the right codecs for delivering content, not just for broadcasting or making DVDs.

  66. ” My personal belief is that Iran will continue to improve so long as no one interferes”

    Is the opposition still functioning? I read reports that even amongst that group there is some Nationalism closing ranks behind the Ayatollahs as they grapple with the US.

  67. House demolition (for the fifth time) has just taken place in north east Jerusalem along with virtual ethnic cleansing.
    .
    http://www.icahd.org/?p=8107
    .
    » News » ICAHD Peace Center ‘Beit Arabiya’ Demolished for the Fifth Time
    January 24th, 2012
    .
    Israeli authorities demolished Beit Arabiya (“Arabiya’s House”) last night (Monday, January 23rd) for the fifth time, along with structures in the East Anata Bedouin compound. Beit Arabiya, Located in the West Bank town of Anata (Area C) just to the northeast of Jerusalem, is a living symbol of resistance to Occupation and the desire for justice and peace.
    .
    As its name suggests, Beit Arabiya is a home belonging to Arabiya Shawamreh, her husband Salim and their seven children, a Palestinian family whose home has been demolished four times by the Israeli authorities and rebuilt each time by ICAHD’s Palestinian, Israeli and international peace activists, before being demolished again last night.
    .
    At around 11p.m. Monday, a bulldozer accompanied by a contingent of heavily armed Israeli soldiers appeared on the Anata hills, to promptly demolish Beit Arabiya, along with residential and agricultural structures in the nearby Arab al-Jahalin Bedouin compound. 3 family homes were demolished along with numerous animal pans, and 20 people including young children were displaced, left exposed to the harsh desert environment. While standing in solidarity with Palestinians, ICAHD staff and activists were repeatedly threatened by Israeli soldieries. ICAHD Co-Director Itay Epshtain was beaten and sustained minor injuries.
    /…

  68. “My point is that it doesn’t matter much if Iran negotiates in poor faith because Iran is not hugely powerful. ”

    That’s is not the perception, and as you know, perception is everything. My point is; if they want pressure off, there are steps they can take to defuse criticism.

  69. Ben wrote: “there is some Nationalism closing ranks behind the Ayatollahs as they grapple with the US”.
    .
    This is exactly the point Azra made earlier, that the threats against Iran are rallying support for the current leadership, the exact opposite of declared intentions.
    .
    “Is the opposition still functioning?”: Well, the individual opposition leaders are presumably being hindered and suppressed. However, such progressive opposition was far more brutally suppressed under the Ayatollahs, but it survived and reasserted itself. No one can eliminate the urge to freedom.

  70. Ben, what steps? Doesn’t Iran have an energy shortage? If they give up enriching uranium they have no hope of energy security.
    .
    As for perception, the West doesn’t have to tolerate corporate spin, misinformation and sensationalism in its media. Just publicising the CIA’s assessment of Iran’s nuclear programme would help to calm public opinion about Iran.

  71. “if they want pressure off, there are steps they can take to defuse criticism.”
    ,
    Yeah bend over and open wide.
    ,
    This is the dialogue of the deaf, the dumb, and the mute.
    ,
    So far as your reference to “opposition” meaning bough and paid for foreign assets go, there is trouble at the mill and none of the so called “opposition” are in any position to deliver the goods that they promised these will to their foreign sponsors. Surely you ought to know about the conversation during which the illustrious member of the “opposition” declared; go for even more biting sanctions! alas the same guy, now is on the run, and his corrupt family members are getting tried for all manner of misappropriation of the public funds in their care.
    ,
    We all know that Iran does not have a military nuclear program, hence the pantomime cry; “oh, no Iran does have”. We also can recall the day after the DPRK detonating their first Nuke and the neoconservatives declaring in chorus: “on no they don’t”, “how can a device sitting in barn pose a threat?”, “how can DPRK get their device (not bombs) airborne”, “How can DPRK device be compared with our nuclear arsenal?”

  72. “Ben, what steps?”

    Unencumbered elections this March. (see comment above)

  73. Ben Franklin,
    No more, if you wan it you best pay for it properly mate!
    Same goes for Russia and guess what Syria too. (how is it going there?)
    ,
    No more jean sharpery and invasions without occupation on the cheap.

  74. “Unencumbered elections this March.”
    .
    That’s no business of the United States.

  75. As I posted on the Afghan Farce thread:
    .
    “Panetta admits Iran not developing nukes”
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/09/panetta-admits-iran-not-developing-nukes/
    .
    “Israel: No Iranian Nuclear Weapons Program. Barak: Any decision to Strike Iran ‘Far off’.”
    {http://www.juancole.com/2012/01/israel-no-iranian-nuclear-weapons-program-barak-any-decision-to-strike-iran-far-off.html}

  76. Quite ‘Anon’ – I have spent some time investigating Latakia and the city’s impoverished districts of al-Ramel, al-Shaab and Ein Tamra. Al-Ramel is home to a crowded Palestinian refugee camp where many low-income Syrians also live. Reports of shelling from government tanks, anti-aircraft fire against civilians and an off shore bombardment by naval guns was reported by Western media and some Arabic news agencies. Indeed the refugee camp in Al-Ramel was under fire from government forces having been infiltrated by armed terrorist gangs according to the SANA news agency. Does that tactic ring any bells with anyone?
    .
    Sadly Western media has been playing games in its coverage about Syria. For the first few months, that same media insisted (against claims to the contrary by the repressive regime) that the Syrian uprising was peaceful: that is, it was part of the touted “Arab spring.”
    .
    Western media insisted that all claims about armed elements of the opposition were mere fabrications by the regime. Yet, when an opposition “army” was announced, and when news of armed clashes in Homs and other places appeared, there were no explanations in the Western press. There was no attempt to reconcile the claims and the later reportage.
    .
    But what is also curious is that Western media was desperate to deliver propaganda services to the cause of the Syrian National Council (there is opposition in Syria beyond the council, of course). Western media have been mere cheerleaders for the Syrian National Council. (This criticisms also applies to the news media of the Saudi and Qatari ruling dynasties).
    .
    Anon – I agree some atrocities have occurred in Syria; urban warfare is very tricky and civilians are difficult to distinguish from combatants such as armed militia and gangs. Libya however has exposed the West’s modus operandi of divide and rule after NATO intervention ie sanctions, no-fly zones and air bombardment that murder thousands of civilians indescriminately.

  77. “if they want pressure off, there are steps they can take to defuse criticism.”
    .
    Perhaps Iran should start criticising the fake presidential elections in the United States? Americans don’t elect the president. He is bought and paid for.

  78. Ben wrote: “Unencumbered elections this March”.
    (1) If Ben and Azra are right, and sanctions have rallied support behind the current rulers, an election might not change the power balance much.
    (2) If a new government got in, they’d most likely continue uranium enrichment, so the pressure from the US would continue.
    (3) Iran has been changing pretty fast, but March is only two months away; this is expecting too much.
    (4) A US attack because of Iran’s internal voting arrangements? Utterly disproportionate and unconscionable.
    .
    Actually, I’ve thought of a step Iran could take myself: they could start developing LFTRs – Liquid Fluorine Thorium Reactors – which don’t have to produce plutonium in operation. Well, it’s not a very practical idea. Iran needs energy now; LFTR development wouldn’t solve that problem.

  79. Perhaps I should also quote Ben Franklin from the Afghan Farce thread:
    .
    “The public doesn’t understand about Petrodollars, and probably doesn’t care. Therefore, a cover story must be created. They DO understand fear of nukes, so there you have it.”

  80. Clark,
    Iran’s nuclear energy program is peaceful and the strict regime of IAEA inspections has verified thus. Fact that luminaries such as self promoting “David Albright”, cast doubts even on their own creature (IAEA) is an all too apparent push for aggression and war. This fact is glaringly set out in Gordon Prather the genuine nuclear physicist’s publications
    ,
    ,
    The issue of Iran’s nuclear program is a hook for the current wannabe Hegemons to hang their aggressive mitts on.
    ,
    The insanity of the all or bust theory of the US is akin to the Hitler WWII attitude, and as Chinese people daily (very orthodox communist party publication) declares is making Russia and China nervous.

  81. Clark;

    Fair elections don’t have certain outcomes. If the electorate ‘chooses’ to keep the power structure intact, and it is through a viable electoral process, then it is good faith. Let the chips fall where they may…

    “4) A US attack because of Iran’s internal voting arrangements? Utterly disproportionate and unconscionable.”

    This is a stupid conclusion to make in light of this current discussion. I suggested ‘good faith’ by Iran might include fair elections allowing the opposition to freely participate. You have completely
    fucked that idea up by suggesting I would support an attack if such elections were not forthcoming. Or did you just go ‘barmy’ again? Need to clarify?

  82. Fedup; Iran Proxy? Hezbollah is calling on line 3…

  83. So, Benny, what do you want Iran to negotiate in good faith ABOUT?

  84. Hezbollah is calling on line 3,
    yeah they kicked the ziofuckwits butt to kingdom come, you still soar aren’t you?
    ,
    You really have no fucking Idea that people of the world cannot be pushed around for ever, do you?

  85. Hello? Ben?
    Read my comments from 11:14 pm onwards, and then tell me what you want Iran to negotiate in good faith ABOUT.
    I’d really like to know.

  86. “yeah they kicked the ziofuckwits butt to kingdom come, you still soar aren’t you?”

    You sound anti-semitic.

  87. You sound anti-semitic.
    Who the fuck are you to say that, and why the fuck do you say it, and what fucking relevance does it have with the price of eggs in the farm yard, and who are Semites again?

  88. Ben: “by suggesting I would support an attack if such elections were not forthcoming”… sorry, I saw that such an interpretation was possible, but ignored it in interest of brevity.
    .
    Fedup, NO conventional nuclear power programme can safely be regarded as entirely for peaceful purposes, as conventional reactors inevitably produce plutonium. This fact illustrates the lie that pressure on Iran is to halt its uranium enrichment programme, and if they just get their enriched uranium from another country the pressure will stop. Well, it might stop for three years or so, until Iran removes its first “spent fuel” from its reactors, but that spent fuel will contain plutonium, which is a bigger proliferation problem than enriched uranium.

  89. NO more jean sharpery, end of. Now piss off.

  90. Goodness, you do run fast, Ben.

  91. ” what fucking relevance does it have with the price of eggs in the farm yard, and who are Semites again?”

    Asking that question followed by your incomprehensible metaphor, makes you ignorant beyond all redemptive self-awareness

    Bugger off…

  92. :D

  93. Clark,
    You can never be sure crossing the road, you will make it to the other side safely.
    ,
    To expect absolute degrees of certainty, in a system such as our universe that abhors absolutism is silly.
    ,
    If Iran did have the nukes she would not be harassed, and bullied 24/7/52

  94. Fedup and Ben, please keep it civil. Ben, I doubt that Fedup hates anyone merely for being Jewish. Fedup, Ben has stated that a US war on Iran would be insane. We can negotiate, or go for all-out conflict… Let’s set a good example.

  95. ignorant beyond all redemptive self-awareness
    Cannot stand yet another ziofuckwit episode. Wanker going round and around and whining on about fucking nukes, elections, and shite. Your mission here is to regurgitate the same shite over and again playing out the usual Kabuki.
    ,
    I may have given the wrong impression that I give a rats arse about your fucking brain farts. Nah I don’t.

  96. Clark;

    We have trolls in the US. It’s my fault for responding to the ignoramus.

  97. Fedup, I don’t like conventional reactors in any country. They’re dangerous, dirty and each refueling increases the weapons proliferation risk. They also burn uranium far too fast due to their gross inefficiency. I was opposed to Mutually Assured Destruction in the Cold war, and I’m opposed to it for Iran, too.

  98. Ben, Nuid’s question merits an answer.

  99. Clark
    These cretins cannot justify their vile racist apartheid supremacist system of exceptionalness. Hence the usual ” you hate Jews”, evidently in post Christian Europe it is mandatory to love Jews, indifference cannot be tolerated and must be inferred to as hatred.
    ,
    However, to expect a resolution by engaging the lowlife practitioners of ziofuckwitry is expecting t find ice cream growing on banana trees in the tropics, ie no fucking chance.

  100. Clark
    Conventional reactors, what do you mean? (I am not being nasty)
    ,
    Elaborate (shorthand would do) please.

  101. “Ben, Nuid’s question merits an answer.”

    Asked and answered; if y’all would read the comments it wouldn’t be necessary to repeat.

    Viable elections in March for the Parliamentary, would elicit some good faith.

  102. Fedup, conventional reactors have a core of solid uranium / uranium oxide fuel rods. Uranium oxide is covalently bonded, but covalent bonds are susceptible to damage by the flux of neutrons within the reactor. Therefore, the fuel has to be removed when the uranium is less than 1% used up; the rods crack and warp, and if you don’t pull them out soon enough they start disintegrating. The other 99% is what causes the “waste” to remain radioactive for tens of thousands of years.
    .
    A much better approach is shown here:
    .
    http://energyfromthorium.com/essay3rs/

  103. So much for your optimism Clark, we have come a long way, it used to be mirrors, beads, and fire-water, these days it is abstract woolly hogwash instead.
    ,
    Not that what the fuck is any business of US to poke its noise into internal affairs of any country?

  104. Bullshit Benny.
    .
    You said, “Unencumbered elections this March.”
    I replied, “That’s no business of the United States.”
    .
    I went on to say, “Perhaps Iran should start criticising the fake presidential elections in the United States? Americans don’t elect the president. He is bought and paid for.”
    .
    I then quoted you from a previous thread, “The public doesn’t understand about Petrodollars, and probably doesn’t care. Therefore, a cover story must be created. They DO understand fear of nukes, so there you have it.”
    .
    In those circumstances, you have not explained WHAT Iran would be negotiating ABOUT. I did not ask you what would show good faith (by your lights.) I asked you what Iran would be negotiating ABOUT.

  105. Clark:

    “Ben, Nuid’s question merits an answer.”

    You want to hang on to this notion?

  106. Ben: “Viable elections in March for the Parliamentary, would elicit some good faith”. Well, that would be good, and it would help, but it’s entirely an internal Iranian matter. What should Iran negotiate about as regards the rest of the world? Judging by all the media noise, the answer would be uranium enrichment, but my plutonium argument above invalidates that.

  107. Answer the question, Ben. Clark is not your Daddy.

  108. Fedup, sorry, what are you referring to as “abstract woolly hogwash”?

  109. I might be his daddy! Who knows?

  110. Indeed!
    But no, he’d be coping better here if you were, Clark. :)

  111. “I might be his daddy! Who knows?”

    Your mistake is talking with idiots. You are not my daddy. I could be your daddy if the picture is contemporary. Sorry, Clark. I have to judge you by the company you tolerate.

  112. Oh my, he’s a flaming coward.
    QED

  113. Clark: “A US attack because of Iran’s internal voting arrangements? Utterly disproportionate and unconscionable.”
    .
    Ben: This is a stupid conclusion to make in light of this current discussion. I suggested ‘good faith’ by Iran might include fair elections allowing the opposition to freely participate. ”
    .
    I was reading along nicely, then got to this untimely switch from chatty guy to ratty guy. Fedup begins proud prose. Clark is characteristically unswayed bravo!

  114. Clark,
    That used to be in the old systems, as well as the old Bomb factories.
    ,
    The current high pressure water reactors, can be moderated much more precisely than in the past, further the advances of materials technology, and construction methods used in production of fuel rods, reduce the dangers of trapped energy, and distortion of the rods.
    ,
    Hence the higher percentages of nuclear fuel burn, in effect create less waste. However, given that every journey starts with the first step, Iranians are just starting their journey of discoveries, hopefully their journey will yield much more efficient nuclear burn processes.
    ,
    However, we must all agree that anti knowledge stance of US and the colonists in Palestine, is based on the notions of; “ignorance is bliss”, which we all know is a puerile and fallacious argument.

  115. Ben, the bit about daddies was just a joke. Sometimes I’m asked if I have any children, and I reply “not so far as I know”, which generally gets a laugh, but it is the situation most men are in. You could indeed be my daddy, as I have no idea who he is or was.
    .
    What do you think I’m tolerating, and what judgment do you come to?

  116. “Ben, the bit about daddies was just a joke.”

    First your excuse for inaccuracy and insult is brevity, Now you are joking. Do you edit your remarks?

    “What do you think I’m tolerating”

    Incivility…

  117. “Fedup, sorry, what are you referring to as “abstract woolly hogwash”?”

    Fedup;

    Clark deserves a response….

  118. Clark
    “abstract woolly hogwash”
    ,
    ,
    the constant reference to; elections, democracy, freedom of choice, freedom of expression, ad nauseum.
    ,
    This relic of the last century may have been bought by the “soviet block” citizens, however in the 21st century with the available communications technology, somehow rings hollow and meaningless; abstract woolly hogwash.
    ,
    This weapon has way past its use by date

  119. EVERYBODY deserves a response, Ben, as long as you keep the subject well away from the quote I gave you (from yourself):
    “The public doesn’t understand about Petrodollars, and probably doesn’t care. Therefore, a cover story must be created. They DO understand fear of nukes, so there you have it.”
    .
    Does the USA negotiate about petrodollars? Hm? What would Iran be negotiating about Ben?
    LOL … goodnight

  120. Fedup, somewhat higher overall fuel burnup is achieved through improved reactor design and reprocessing, but it only gets us up to a few percent. The molten salt reactors are not a development from solid fueled reactors; it’s independent technology that was abandoned in the ’60s because it didn’t produce plutonium for the Cold War. A country doesn’t have to make solid fueled reactors before they can progress to molten salt reactors. The drawbacks of solid fuel reactors are inherent in the covalent chemical bonds in the solid fuel. Molten fuel has ionic chemical bonds and is thus not susceptible to damage from neutron flux.

  121. Clark,
    You are far too occupied by the bonding, and you are overlooking the moderation control, and moderator composition, as well as fuel rod material design and construction.
    ,
    Use of differing working fluids, can achieve no more than the high pressure water (broadly speaking). Further considering the enrichment levels of two to seven percent and burn up rate of approx four percent, yield low level radiation waste. that can be recycled.
    ,
    Nuclear energy has a real bad wrap, in fact I will never forget the NASA Mars Explorer teams’ interview during which one of the panel referenced to the nuclear battery on board, only for him to be slapped down and corrected by his boss; “high energy battery”.
    ,
    We cannot let paranoia stop the progress of humanity. Further without active investigations and research no improvements can be expected or gained. Therefore, proliferation of nuclear energy and its improvements ought to be the priority of all governments, James Lovelock was the very first to forward this notion, and he is the environmentalist 1, is he not?

  122. Fedup, we’re well off-topic here; you can e-mail me from the link under my avatar if you wish, but just briefly…
    .
    I’m not opposed to nuclear power in principle, but I don’t like the current power reactors. Remember, at Fukushima, all three operational reactors suffered meltdowns. I’ve never heard of high burnup in the conventional fuel cycle, and the 100,000 or so tonnes of spent fuel would seem to contradict that.

  123. “Never argue with a fool,they will lower you to their level then beat you with experience.”
    .
    Just in and catching up on the thread.Interesting reading.For some strange reason i can always tell the posters that are paid to attend this site.

  124. boniface goncourt

    25 Jan, 2012 - 4:18 am

    Don’t forget that Jan 27 is International Holocaust Remembrance Day when we must feel solemn about the billions of Israeli casualties in World War Two. Make sure you don’t smile, or Israel might get the ‘ump and start World War Three.

  125. The legacy of Bush and Bliar lives on.
    .
    U.N. rights chief shocked at numerous Iraq executions
    .
    GENEVA (Reuters) – The top United Nations human rights official criticised Iraq on Tuesday for carrying out a large number of executions, including 34 on a single day last week, and voiced concern about due process and the fairness of trials.
    .
    “Even if the most scrupulous fair trial standards were observed, this would be a terrifying number of executions to take place in a single day,” U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said, in a statement referring to executions carried out on January 19.
    .
    “Given the lack of transparency in court proceedings, major concerns about due process and fairness of trials, and the very wide range of offences for which the death penalty can be imposed in Iraq, it is a truly shocking figure,” she added.
    .
    At least 63 people are believed to have been executed since mid-November in Iraq, where the death penalty can be imposed for some 48 crimes including a number related to non-fatal crimes such as damage to public property, Pillay said.
    .
    /…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/24/us-un-iraq-rights-idUSTRE80N17820120124

  126. Fisk -
    .
    Let’s take the Israeli version which, despite constant proof that Israel’s intelligence services are about as efficient as Syria’s, goes on being trumpeted by its friends in the West, none more subservient than Western journalists. The Israeli President warns us now that Iran is on the cusp of producing a nuclear weapon. Heaven preserve us. Yet we reporters do not mention that Shimon Peres, as Israeli Prime Minister, said exactly the same thing in 1996. That was 16 years ago. And we do not recall that the current Israeli PM, Benjamin Netanyahu, said in 1992 that Iran would have a nuclear bomb by 1999. That would be 13 years ago. Same old story.
    .
    In fact, we don’t know that Iran really is building a nuclear weapon. And after Iraq, it’s amazing that the old weapons of mass destruction details are popping with the same frequency as all the poppycock about Saddam’s titanic arsenal. Not to mention the date problem. When did all this start? The Shah. The old boy wanted nuclear power. He even said he wanted a bomb because “the US and the Soviet Union had nuclear bombs” and no one objected. Europeans rushed to supply the dictator’s wish. Siemens – not Russia – built the Bushehr nuclear facility.
    .
    And when Ayatollah Khomeini, Scourge of the West, Apostle of Shia Revolution, etc, took over Iran in 1979, he ordered the entire nuclear project to be closed down because it was “the work of the Devil”. Only when Saddam invaded Iran – with our Western encouragement – and started using poison gas against the Iranians (chemical components arriving from the West, of course) was Khomeini persuaded to reopen it.
    .
    /…
    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-weve-been-here-before–and-it-suits-israel-that-we-never-forget-nuclear-iran-6294111.html

  127. This may sound silly but I will just put the idea out there, I am a big fan of the documentary works of Adam Curtis, this topic sounds like something that would be right up his alley, however, I wouldn’t want to take anything away from the opportunities offered by others, also, have you heard of Max Keiser’s little website called ‘Pirate my Film’? It allows you to post a film idea and then get it crowd funded based just on the idea, its a really interesting way to harness the power of ideas and make films with no large financial backing… i’m pretty sure it would be worth setting up, I will contribute to the costs of the film getting made if you put it on there!

    Good luck Craig and keep up the good work

  128. The BBC ‘s today programme has won the bisquit for best propaganda today. By giving possible traitor Liam Fox the opportunity to first call Iran a Nuclear weapons state and then a future nuclear weapons state, without even questioning the liar,they have levelled off with RT and any other mouthpiece that promotes violence and war.
    Not a question as to ‘where is werritty’, for all I care it could be a new board game par excellence, not a question as to evidence to this outrageous claim, no questions as to Werritty’s unhindered, unofficial travel with ‘his man’.
    Today and PM are progressively ensuring that the BBC will be totally remoulded, that its lies and cannivance will eventually be found out and the tax paying public, suckering this fascist behaviour in a tribal political adherence to the main parties, will realise that they have been impoverished and sucked dry by these triffids.

    Clark, would it be feasible that the best place for used cracked fuel rods is the backside of some of these errant hasbara’s here?

    @ alaric, listen sonny, Craig wants to finish the work, not make it a millenium project that might be done one day if enough can be bothered to like it, there is some urgency to what Craig is planning.

  129. I am told that Liam Fox’s contribution was particularly revolting on Radio 4 Today this morning.
    .
    0832
    Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said yesterday in the Commons that an escalation of a dispute with Iran could see Britain sending military reinforcements to the Gulf. Former Defence Secretary Liam Fox gives his thoughts on relations with the Middle East country.
    .
    The live link is not there yet but normally comes up quite quickly.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/listen_again/default.stm

  130. Sellafield – http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/01/the-ceo-who-chained-himself-to-a-bridge/

    As the author says, can’t see Gates (Clinton crony) doing the same. Gates is all over the media this morning hyping up his foundation and the need for more aid. He never mentioned the cost of the US military, top spender at $687 billion and probably an inaccurate guesstimate. {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures}

  131. Mary – thank you for linking to Robert Fisk’s story, which deserves a wider audience than it is likely to get.
    .
    I wish that some of the other commentators would stop trying to make this thread a substitute House of Commons – there are many excellent points being made but the yah-boo personal assaults don’t fit with a blog like Craig’s, which is scholarly and truthful.

    Jeni

  132. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Jan, 2012 - 10:04 am

    I see that WWIII conspiracy has waded off. Is it still on table?
    .
    Russian web portals reported that Julian Assange is to work for Russia Today. Well, good for him.

  133. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Jan, 2012 - 10:12 am

    @ Boniface Goncourt
    .
    Are you saying that Holocaust was not made up? By Soviets? US? British?

  134. Wow, this thread is busy :)
    .
    Since there’s not really an on-topic here, here’s an off-topic. On Press TV, for those following that story:
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/24/suppressing-press-tv-ofcom-licence

  135. Ingo, I would not attempt to store spent nuclear fuel in any backside that wasn’t lined with plenty of lead. Plumbum?

  136. Ingo Deliberate obfuscation and confusion on the BBC today website. When you clink on the link below to the Fox segment, you get up the same link for the segment before it about the brain ie
    0824
    New research into how the brain works examines why some people may have a mediocre IQ but might be very good at certain subjects, like maths for example. Professor Nancy Kanwisher, of the McGovern Institute for Brain Research at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is leading the research and outlines her findings.
    .
    What bastards are lurking within the BBC.

    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9686000/9686131.stm

  137. Memo to BBC Today webpage sent 10.58
    .
    The live link to the Liam Fox interview this morning takes one to the interview with the American professor discussing the workings of the brain! Please rectify as the matter is important.

    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9686000/9686131.stm
    .

  138. Havantaclu Thanks for that. I did miss these outrageous words IRAN IS NOT A NICE PLACE in the opening paras of Fisk’s piece which thus diminish the rest of what he says. I copied the third and fourth paragraphs.
    .
    Thread on medialens
    .
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1327477768.html

  139. “Deliberate obfuscation and confusion on the BBC today website. When you clink on the link below to the Fox segment, you get up the same link for the segment before it about the brain … What bastards are lurking within the BBC.”
    .
    Calm down a little … Webmasters make errors, just like everyone else.

  140. Jives: ‘For some strange reason i can always tell the posters that are paid to attend this site.’

    Jives I would echo your sentiment. its such a shame that a proper registration system couldn’t be used on this otherwise brilliant web forum to deter the sockpuppetry professionals and amateur trolls.

  141. Another fantastic article by Dr Roberts : USA is drowning in hypocrisy
    Well worth reading
    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/01/25/u-s-drowning-in-hypocrisy/

  142. The BBC have responded by correcting the link to the interview with Fox who sounds just as cocksure as before his outing as an Israeli collaborator.
    .
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9686000/9686132.stm

  143. Nuid You don’t know all that goes on at ZBC. Are you Dreoilin btw?

  144. “I see that WWIII conspiracy has waded off. Is it still on table?”
    ,
    ,
    Conspiracy? What desperation belies such a statement?
    ,
    Does it mean that US ought to be appeased, regardless of its crazy expansionist policies destabilising the world?

  145. I am ex-Dreoilin, Mary, yes.

  146. Then welcome back Nuid.
    .
    ZBC are glorifying this psychopath who is the US top sniper, ie killer of Muslims.
    .
    What goes on in the mind of a sniper?
    By Stephanie Hegarty

    BBC World Service

    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16544490

  147. Mary : Robert Fisk and others who have not lived in Iran make the unfortunate assumption that Iran is not a Nice Place. last year was talking to someone who used to live in Holland many years and moved back to Iran 3 years ago. He said something sobering :
    ” people in here want to find a way to move out, they think the grass is greener the other side, yet and we who are out, are trying to find away to move back in”.
    No doubt Iran has its problem, but most of those I blame the foriegn interference and the western government for.

  148. meant, “find ways to move back in”

  149. Thanks, Mary.
    I just read an excerpt from your link about that sniper: “Married with two children, he has now retired from the military and has published a book in which he claims to have no regrets, referring to the people he killed as “savages”.”
    .
    Anyone anywhere who tries to defend their country from assault by the USA is labelled a ‘savage’ by (many of) the US military. Makes me shudder.

  150. And then there’s this in the Telegraph:
    ‘Haditha residents outraged as Marine avoids jail’
    Haditha residents and relatives of the 24 Iraqi civilians killed in 2005 in the town by US troops voiced disgust and shock over the light sentence meted out to a soldier involved in the massacre.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9037595/Haditha-residents-outraged-as-Marine-avoids-jail.html
    .
    He’s not even doing three months in jail, because of a “pretrial agreement”. He has walked free.

  151. 25 January 2012
    Israel detains Hamas MP Aziz Dweik for six months
    Aziz Dweik was arrested by Israel in 2006 and spent almost three years in prison
    .
    An Israeli military court has ordered Hamas MP Aziz Dweik, speaker of the Palestinian parliament, to be held without trial for six months.
    .
    His lawyer told Reuters news agency that the detention order says his client is “liable to be involved in hostile actions against Israel”.
    .
    Mr Dweik was detained on Thursday near the West Bank city of Ramallah.
    .
    Both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, which Israel has designated a terrorist group, condemned the arrest.
    .
    Hamas said Israel wanted to undermine its attempts at reconciliation with the Fatah movement of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16714967

    .
    Note the little extra comment from ZBC – ..which Israel has designated a terrorist group.

  152. Britain is Facing Boom in Dishonesty!
    Why I am not surprised….

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-facing-boom-in-dishonesty-6294132.html

  153. ** Craig ** >>>

    Crab: “Tony12 are you responsible for the noisy campaign of TonyOPMOC drunken spleen posts? …”

    Tony12: No. Too busy working most of the time. I am a much more simple soul. We do classical music videos, documentaries and interviews – mainly for the internet so we have the right codecs for delivering content, not just for broadcasting or making DVDs.

    My apologies for the confusion Tony. I hope Craig sees your fine offer and good on you!

  154. http://smileyculturelies.blogspot.com/2012/01/markduggan-documentary-still-no-answers.html

    Craig, David N Jai has done a few docs. he is on twitter he may have contacts that can help you. Worth a try.

  155. http://govermentterrorism.blogspot.com/2012/01/iran_25.html

    Ordinary Iranians bear the brunt of sanctions.

  156. boniface goncourt

    25 Jan, 2012 - 7:06 pm

    ## Uzbek in the UK

    @ Boniface Goncourt
    .
    Are you saying that Holocaust was not made up? By Soviets? US? British? ##

    The holo a hoax? What with all that forensic and documentary evidence? You an anti-semite or something? I mean, I get my soap from a nice old Viennese lady who has a stock of ‘echte Judenseife’. Surely she couldn’t be fooling me.

  157. Mary

    OK so you think I am a nutter? – notice how ‘Occupy’ has been savagely put down?”
    I agree with Angrysoba – if you want to see savage put downs might I suggest you look at Syria, where Assad among other attrocities has even shelled a Palestiniann refugee camp.
    .
    Could we please have a source for that piece of black propaganda.
    .

    Well I know Gorgeous George is usually a source of black propaganda

    http://www.votegeorgegalloway.com/2011/08/george-galloway-on-syria.html

    But if you google “syrian navy palestinian refugee camp” you will find plenty of other considerably more reliable sources verified the story.

    As Keynes said when the facts change I change my mind – what do you do Mary?

  158. Clark
    “I’m not opposed to nuclear power in principle, but I don’t like the current power reactors. Remember, at Fukushima, all three operational reactors suffered meltdowns. I’ve never heard of high burnup in the conventional fuel cycle, and the 100,000 or so tonnes of spent fuel would seem to contradict that.”
    ,
    ,
    You are talking about old reactors not current reactors, as ever the meaningless scaremongering have resulted in circular arguments( not you, the Luddite) .
    ,
    A reactor that is running for bomb material production cannot produce power, and a reactor producing power, cannot make bomb material. Therefore the owners ought to make their mind up what they want before commissioning the construction of the relevant reactor.
    ,
    Also the stock of waste fuel is a combination of the bomb material and product of the old reactors usage.
    ,
    ,
    New reactors, or current reactors, have a much more comprehensive and extensive control systems with the state of the art sensors that the old reactors could not have access to. The greater degrees of monitoring and enhanced control systems in addition to much more advanced construction methods have resulted in the higher rates of fuel burn.
    ,
    Your contentions hold valid only for the old reactors and or bomb factories and not the new designs and constructs. There is no need to engage in huge debates, you discount the advances in reactor control system and sensor technologies as well as evolved designs of the fuel rods, to conclude as you have.

  159. Anon
    ,
    Time to talk is past, you want to stop it go to Syria, otherwise, accept it, you and your kind have lost the phony fight/ revolution lite , and the end game is not as it had been planned.
    ,
    The propaganda bullshit is only wishful thinking, and is not getting anywhere.
    ,
    Savage put downs are;in Qatif Saudi, Manama Bahrain, and Sanaa, Taiz, Yemen, not Syria. Get your fucking facts right.

  160. Fedup – Taqqiya on your part I’m afraid – savage put downs occur throughout the Middle East not just in those regimes that you don’t favour. Fact.

  161. Anon
    Sanctimonious charade goes on…….. now Syria is replaced with :”savage put downs occur throughout the Middle East not just in those regimes that you don’t favour. Fact.”
    ,
    Not across the planet, and in UK they are called yobs and trouble makers and get six month jail time for taking a bottle of water to drink.
    ,
    Apparently the stereotypical generalisation only applies to Mid east, and we all know, which group of supremacists hold such a vile world view.
    ,

  162. Fedup, what figure for burnup do you have, and is that with reprocessing? Reactors certainly can produce power and weapon grade material simultaneously; the UK Magnox plants were designed to do just this. Producing plutonium inevitably produces lots of heat as well, so it makes sense to generate electricity as a by-product. What is your source? It looks a bit too pro-nuclear to me.

  163. Clark,
    “the UK Magnox plants were designed to do just this. ”
    ,
    ,
    You are now grasping at straws. The power output from these reactors were as much as a small diesel powered electricity substation (emergencies for internal use). Further, the way these were driven to produce bomb making material, wound up in the mess that no one had anticipated.
    ,
    That is the trouble Clark, whence the levels of illiteracy among the body of experts is overlooked, with a view to facilitation of secondary and tertiary goals, the net result is always a cock up and a round of shit hitting the fans.
    ,
    Clark, read about Bikini Atoll hydrogen bomb detonations, the US luminaries engaged in manufacture of that bomb, were so out of whack with their science; that detonation resulted in two islands getting blown up. The scientific observers nearby getting nearly vaporised. As well as the comical scenes of these scientists getting evaced out of their bunkers clad in bed sheets thrown on them, that sported two eye-holes (Burka was invented in Bikini, hows about that for a Sun Headline?), for protection from fall out.
    ,
    The degrees of disinformation about nuclear power generation, have yielded an unbelievably bogus environment of scaremongering; great many falsehoods taken as gospel truths. Our current debate is in a fashion akin to comparing a modern day steam driven liner, to Turbinia! Arguing about the shortcomings of steam turbines.
    ,
    The nuclear sciences as well as reactor construction and control sciences have made huge leaps forward. However, the “possible” threats from this vital branch of science, has translated into an all out effort to stop the use of nuclear power generation.
    ,
    To ban construction and use of steel mills for production of steel because knives and guns can be made out of the steel manufactured, would sound ludicrous, and stupid. Alas in the same fashion banning the construction and use of nuclear power generation plants, has been made to appear to be a sane and logical move!
    ,
    Clark I know you favour nuclear power generation, however, the data at your disposal has been made available by the same pernicious agencies, who employed nuclear scientists with questionable degrees of literacy who easily could have blown themselves up along with their own inventions, as well as setting the scene for the release of controlled information on the subject. The subsequent fear and loathing of the nuclear sciences, has been on the lines of; in case the other guy wants to make the bomb too!
    ,

  164. “A reactor that is running for bomb material production cannot produce power, and a reactor producing power, cannot make bomb material.”
    .
    That is an unusual claim. Can you explain or reference it?

  165. Brace yourself will USA and UK after dealing with Iran make their move on Gulf countries (that is if this report is true and Gulf States are moving away from dollar), but then again so is France! Brazil and few others! so are we going to see WW3
    so that USA could keep Dollar as the main trading currency??

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html

  166. Fedup, the nuclear power generation issue is something I’ve been reading about since the Fukushima disaster. The issue seems highly polarised, with highly conflicting claims from the opposing parties. I have been deliberately reading diverse sources to assess the range of the controversy. You say I’m “grasping at straws”, but I’m not out to prove anything or support a particular viewpoint. Rather, I’m trying to assess the conflicting viewpoints in order to get a clearer view myself.
    .
    From Wikipedia, electrical power output per Magnox reactor ranged from 50MWe in 1958 to 490MWe in 1971, and per Maxnox power station from 200MWe to nearly a gigawatt. These are respectable output figures for the times they were constructed, way beyond “a small diesel powered electricity substation” (substations aren’t diesel powered and don’t generate power; they transform electrical voltage and current, and perform control, redistribution and telemetry functions).
    .
    The discrepancy between the above figures and your assertion suggest to me that your source is inaccurate, probably affected by the polarisation of the debate. Likewise with your claim for high fuel burnup (generation II reactors have burnup figures of about 6%). So please cite your sources so I can include them in my overall assessment.

  167. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Jan, 2012 - 1:03 pm

    Azra
    .
    It not this article over 2 years old? Oil can be traded for any currency but so far US remains the largest oil importer. China if makes its currency traded free in the world market might make it very competitive but then Chinese government will lose its control over subsidising Chinese export via artificially lowered exchange rates.

  168. Uzbeck, you are absolutely right it is dated October 2009 which I did not notice as the heading was on the front page of today’s independent online articles!

  169. Uzbek : do you think then going into Libya was a kind of warning to the Gulf States. (ie give the idea of trading in anything but Dollar otherwise….)

  170. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Jan, 2012 - 3:26 pm

    Azra,
    .
    Was not there history of complicated relations between Gaddafi and the west , US in particular? Was not he called ‘Mad Dog’ and blamed for Lockerbie?
    .
    Trading oil for dollars of course plays in favour of US, but also the fact that US dollar is still major reserve currency and with troubles in Eurozone, with political situation in Russia and Chinese unwillingness to allow free trade of renminbi there is no other currency that could play this role. And as you might know at present there is not enough gold to replace all paper that is stack in various reserve banks.

  171. UzbeK : eh, didn’t Gaddafi gave up thoughts of nuclear weapon, etc. and was he not embraced by the international community and became a friend (at least for a time!).

    Didn’t Saadam also wanted to divert from dollar to other currencies ??

    Somehow I do believe currency plays a role in the conflicts created by USA and their poodles.

  172. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Jan, 2012 - 3:58 pm

    Azra
    .
    You might of course be right but oil comes first before currency. Ability to have influence over governments that rule the countries with oil is probably more important than currency for which oil is traded. Over 60% of oil traded in the world is bought by US and Europe and this alone would be sufficient to keep both dollar and Euro dominant currencies in oil trading. But this alone is not sufficient to guarantee economic development in those countries for which currencies oil is traded. On the other hand having puppet governments that would guarantee oil supply even for whichever currency is quite important for economic development and seems to be a priority behind war in Iraq.
    .
    Also just to let you know that share of Libya in world oil trade is less than 3% and considering this and your argument in support war for oil trade currency conspiracy this would not have made any hugely significant impact on overall US dollar global dominant position. For instance Russia that is second largest after Saudis oil exporter trades around 50% of its oil for Euros and other currencies and yet this has not brought US dollar down.

  173. Uzbek, If you look at the Mundi Index, actually 60% of oil is not imported by Europe and USA and by increase in the consumption by China, India, South Korea it is going to be even less than whatever percentage is today.

    EU purchases it oil from Russia, but do they pay in Euro or dollar for it? (I need to research that!). I would not be surprised that EU countries paid in dollar for their oil, they are so subservient to USA.
    There are too many who beleive petrodallr is one of the main reason if not the reason for the last ten years of ME being torn apart by the west. (glboal research, Foreign Policy Journal amongst many other).

  174. Magnox is a now obsolete type of nuclear power reactor which was designed and is still in use in the United Kingdom, and was exported to other countries, both as a power plant, and, when operated accordingly, as a producer of plutonium for nuclear weapons.”
    ,
    ,
    ,

    “substations aren’t diesel powered”
    Going pedantic now, are we? Et tu Clark?
    ,
    Depending on the “station” we can assume all manner and variances thereof; watering substations are not diesel powered either, also food substations do not need diesel powered generators too.
    ,
    Best check your figures again, and soon you will find those figures are aggregate figures and wildly optimistic, the original reactor outputs were of the order of 5MW. Look around and you may actually find the correct answer. (the Windscale et al, truly dangerous and primitive attempts in reactor construction)
    ,
    ,
    ,
    The poisoned well of nuclear fuel burn-up issue that is the bread and butter issue of the “Greens” etc. has come to substitute for the outright opposition, given the current hydrocarbon pricing racket. The assumptions that are made, and often lacking any understanding of the issues, yield to all manner of wild speculations, with all manner of inaccuracies, but hey who cares, they are out to rubbish the industry anyway.
    ,
    ,
    Noting that despite the lower cost of nuclear fuel, compared to the the cost of a nuclear power plant. However, we find fuel is still expensive, prompting continuing efforts to increase performance of the existing fuel rods. This is achieved through increasing the energy obtained from each existing fuel pellet, in the way to offset against the costs of additional new fuel enrichment, and the cost of waste fuel management, and prohibitive costs of disposal.
    ,
    Further though the manufacture and disposal of fewer fuel assemblies. The balance of these costs and savings to date has favoured an increase in fuel burnup, although economic studies suggest that the additional costs for further burnup increases may not be so favourable in any given existing reactors.
    ,
    Clarke to upgrade the existing reactors will cost a great deal of money and economically makes no sense, however the new reactors coming on line already have these features built in and can enjoy the benefits outlined in above.
    ,
    Unfortunately most sources of any relevance (no histrionics and shrill cries of ban the bomb) are to be found in standard text books concerning the Pressurised Water Reactors. Do a search in Google books and you will find a some decent reading material.

  175. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Jan, 2012 - 5:02 pm

    Azra
    .
    If you look carefully at the mundi index chart amongst the countries with crude oil consumption of 1 million barrels a day or more US and European countries account for over 60% (as you need to discount countries like Russia, Brazil and Saudi Arabia as most of the oil they use is not imported).
    .
    According to some Russian web sites Russia does export oil for Euros and for rubles to former Soviet republics.

  176. Fedup, burnup is important because high burnup means less “spent fuel”, less reactor down-time for refueling, and less reprocessing; reducing any of these reduces costs. Increasing burnup is the primary method of “increasing the energy obtained from each existing fuel pellet”. If I remember rightly, the cost of uranium (as opposed to fabricated fuel elements) is a minor part of the overall cost of nuclear-generated electricity, so conservation of uranium is of little importance in terms of costs. In the longer term, burnup affects how long our reserves of uranium will last.
    .
    I’m not keen on your suggestion that I go and find “The Truth”. As I said, I already read diverse sources. Some claims I can check, others I can’t. Presumably, you are in the same situation; how am I supposed to judge whether your conclusions are accurate? Please just cite your sources so I can assess them.

  177. Fedup, there is a very active group campaigning for contemporary development of MSRs (Molten Salt Reactors) and thorium fuel cycles. Some of these people claim that vested interests within the established industry, primarily fuel fabricators and reprocessors, are distributing disinformation to discredit MSRs. Judging from the inaccuracies I’ve seen in some articles critical of MSRs and thorium, they could be right.

  178. Uzbek, yes, I realize that, but are you not forgetting that USA is the fourth largest oil producer (Arab league, Russia, Saudi Arabia, USA, IRan… ) and UK produces some (North Sea) as well!

  179. Uzbek : Woops, mistake! don’t know how Arab League appeared in there! in fact USA is the 3rd largest oil producing country, it is just their consumption is so high that they need to import a lot.

  180. “A reactor that is running for bomb material production cannot produce power, and a reactor producing power, cannot make bomb material.”

    “Magnox is a now obsolete type of nuclear power reactor which was designed and is still in use in the United Kingdom, and was exported to other countries, both as a power plant, and, +when operated accordingly+, as a producer of plutonium for nuclear weapons.”

    This citation did not support your previous assertion at all fedup, you should be able to understand that at least after a second take -and it is just one example of the kind of error you should not be making while dictating the state of nuclear technology here -and while complaining about being questioned on it. If a nuclear scientist commented here, they would be happy to see questions on their work, interest, testimoney – not fedup.

  181. Clark,
    We are getting closer to agreement. As you have outlined, the vested interests and their business models, in maintaining the current state of inertia, may elect to inject copious amounts of disinformation into the debate. Therefore your, calls for vigilance is needed in sourcing the material.
    ,
    Noting this line of thinking, I have been reluctant to forward my sources, ie I am trying to keep you away from my domain of research, and maintain a firewall between us. this is in a hope that any probable contaminations of data at either end can become an apparent affair. Furthermore, I hope that our discourse can draw the attention of others to the somewhat difficult subject of nuclear power generation, that despite its simplicity remains so full of myths and fables.
    ,
    Your forwarded contentions, need further research in given that, evidently there have been working models set up and studied in US.
    ,
    Finally it is evident we agree upon the need for a solid and reliable substitutes for Hydrocarbons, therefore the credible nuclear power production models ought to be given a fair hearing and be re-examined in the public domain.
    ,

  182. Crab
    A mundane thought experiment;
    ,
    A formula one car is designed and built around acceleration and speed during short intervals on known and established road circuits.
    ,
    A heavy goods truck is designed around hauling heavy goods, over vast distances over an extended period.
    ,
    there cannot exit a hybrid of these two.
    ,
    What is trouble now Crab?
    ,
    What do you find difficult to understand?

  183. Crab,
    I just noticed the source of your confusion;
    50 mwe is not exactly a huge power output, Drax is managing 4 gW and it runs on coal.
    ,
    Manox produce electricity as a secondary output, their primary task remains in production of bomb making material. Hence back to the original point;
    1- A bomb martial making reactor does not produce electricity.
    2- A power production reactor does not produce bomb making material.

  184. Fedup your ‘thought experiment’ was a truely ridiculous escape into imagination and a sorry indication of how you misuse your imagination to support your overly strong opinions.
    .
    You are so obviously not any kind of engineer much less any sort of qualified lecturer on the subject of reactor technology. So what are you getting out of lecturing, moaning about (having to debate), and trying to broaden my imagination – instead of supplying verifiable information which an expert can -which even Clark can cause he actualy has such a thing as an interest in the subject. You need to posture and duck all the time like a politician! You wouldnt have time or patience to read your own stuff if you didnt know you wrote it.

  185. Crab,
    Who is imagining?
    ,
    You are so obviously not any kind of engineer much less any sort of qualified lecturer on the subject of reactor technology. So what are you getting out of lecturing,
    ,
    Divinations galore, crabbing on, en route to the next imbecilic episode.
    ,
    What do you get out of it Crab, for being so belligerent in your ignorance? There is an expression for that.
    ,
    “Strong Opinions”? Science does not do opinions.
    ,
    Back to the thought experiments;
    ,
    Can crab eat its cake?
    -yes
    Can crab keep its cake?
    -yes
    Can crab eat its cake, and keep its cake concurrently?
    -depends on the rate of nibble and its inverse desire to nibble!
    ,
    ,
    You cannot have bomb making factories and power production reactors at the same time, these two facets are incompatible, regardless of tying to introduce miracle indexes and wish constants.
    ,
    Clark is going on about a differing substrate to be used as reactor fuel, that is not naturally fissile, and needs supportive technologies to become fissile. This forms the basis of a “waste less” reactor. A brave jump, alas not supported by the data. Although there seems to have been some kind of a working model, alas the secrecy and fantasy indexes applied, pushes this notion into the category of must be investigated, that is not much use for we must build now and more of them that I am advocating.
    ,
    Mind crab you are right, I am an ordinary punter, nothing special, in fact the worst nightmare scenario; I get nothing Pecuniary out of it.

  186. Fedup: “This forms the basis of a “waste less” reactor. A brave jump, alas not supported by the data.”
    .
    Actually, I have the opposite problem with this; more data than I can assess. The entire development notes from the 1960s MSR programme in the US have been posted on-line, here:
    .
    http://www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/
    .
    I started downloading this lot; my connection gave up at about 4GiB. Reading it will take a while. But politics may supply a clue here. Alvin Weinberg was a major contributor to both the MSR and LWRs (Light Water Reactors); it would probably be fair to credit him as the inventor of both, along with Eugene Wigner. According to various sources, Weinberg was pushing for MSRs to be developed in preference to LWRs for civilian power generation on grounds of safety; he considered PWRs safe enough only for military use. It seems that his concerns for safety conflicted with the political priority of making plutonium, leading to his replacement as director of Oak Ridge National Laboratory in 1973. That sounds like typical politics to me, a bad decision made for the wrong reasons, so I consider it plausible.

  187. Clark,
    Use of Light Water Reactors or in general PWR reactors in military is for the reasons of propulsion of submarines, aircraft carriers, and at one point in the past have been forwarded as aircraft engines too. There is a strong probability that USSR got their nuclear powered aircraft airborne, whilst US engine tests on an experimental craft got nowhere. (the comparatively low levels of radiation makes this class of reactor more desirable, for confined spaces and environment)
    ,
    Throughout our debate you have pointed out the presence of bomb making material in the spent fuel, and transmutation of most of the fuel into such a material, that in effect validates the cock and bull we are subject to on a daily basis, to discourage the proliferation of nuclear power production methods.
    ,
    The current material available on the net, are put there by the interested parties to corroborate/validate their own agenda/favoured cause/politics. Nuclear industry is a secretive industry, therefore the latest developments and innovations are not to be easily found around the internet. Further, to study the subject perhaps a good book or two needs to be referenced too.
    ,
    However, at the outset we must agree that even the high waste reactors do not produce huge volumes of waste, due to the dense nature of the nuclear products specific volumes are low, and can be easily disposed of in the various disused mineshaft/cave network/ocean burial sites/space. This is the lines of thinking James Lovelock is forwarding. Alas, as you have already mentioned the politics that has dogged the development of Thorium reactor, have also put paid to publicising and or promoting Lovelock’s thoughtful approach, due to the fact if nuclear industry finds a good enough traction, the rapid developments thereof could follow. One such a development would be a thorium reactor. Here we must understand that once Thorium can be used as a substrate for a reactor, next step could be almost any material also can be used too, with potential for exotic transmutation and potentially vast new areas of research as yet not even dreamt up could be open to investigations.
    ,
    Therefore the constant politics of negativity when it comes to nuclear power generation, because you have already mentioned the mindset of the military industrial complex is guns/weapons/bombs, and certainly precludes any notions of butter/bread/welfare.
    ,
    With the above in mind, with respect to the developments in places like Iran. This would be the catalysts for a race for peaceful nuclear power generation methods, that could result in the change of attitudes in the West too, and for once bread and butter are the winners.
    ,
    Now do we agree, or disagree Clark?

  188. Fedup, OK, I found this on Wikipedia:

    Weapons-grade plutonium is defined as being predominantly Pu-239, typically about 93% Pu-239. Pu-240 is produced when Pu-239 absorbs an additional neutron and fails to fission. Pu-240 and Pu-239 are not separated by reprocessing. Pu-240 has a high rate of spontaneous fission, which can cause a nuclear weapon to predetonate. To reduce the concentration of Pu-240 in the plutonium produced, weapons program plutonium production reactors irradiate the uranium for a far shorter time than is normal for a nuclear power reactor. More precisely, weapons-grade plutonium is obtained from uranium irradiated to a low burnup.
    .
    This represents a fundamental difference between these two types of reactor. In a nuclear power station, high burnup is desirable. Power stations such as the obsolete British Magnox and French UNGG reactors, which were designed to produce either electricity or weapons material, were operated at low power levels with frequent fuel changes using online refuelling to produce weapons-grade plutonium. Such operation is not possible with the light water reactors most commonly used to produce electric power. In these the reactor must be shut down and the pressure vessel disassembled to gain access to the irradiated fuel.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons-grade#Weapons-grade_plutonium
    .
    Thanks for raising this; I’ve learned something.
    .
    So our disagreement (confusion?) stems from different usages of the term “high burnup”. In conventional, solid cored reactors for electricity production, 6% is considered high. Even lower burnup could be used in some reactor types (eg. Magnox) to produce weapons-grade plutonium, with greatly reduced electrical power output while doing so.
    .
    6% is not considered high burnup in MSRs, which should achieve 90% and above.
    .
    So my initial concerns about the Bushehr reactor were overstated. The plutonium 239 that Bushehr will make will be contaminated with plutonium 240, and thus not suitable for making nuclear explosions. However, my point about pressure on Iran remains, for two reasons:
    .
    (1) Bushehr will be making plutonium, though not of weapons grade. But given the exaggerations and misdirections currently being deployed by those who demonise Iran’s nuclear programme, any production of plutonium by Iran will be used to raise fear, just as uranium enrichment is being used now. Giving up enrichment will not protect Iran from sanctions or from being attacked.
    .
    (2) Iran is regularly accused of aiding terrorism. The degree of truth in this matters little. Even if Iran imported its enriched uranium, as soon as Bushehr is refueled, Iran’s enemies will start agitating about possible “dirty bombs”; conventional explosives that distribute plutonium.
    .
    I have been unable to discover if the Bushehr reactor could be operated in a low burnup mode to produce weapons-grade plutonium. Adequate inspections would eliminate such a risk, but Iran’s enemies will deploy FUD nonetheless.

  189. Fedup, our comments crossed. I’m reading your 12:57 pm comment now…

  190. Fedup, I mostly agree. A few points:
    .
    “There is a strong probability that USSR got their nuclear powered aircraft airborne…”
    .
    If you have a reliable source for this, please consider either updating Wikipedia yourself, or sending me some links so that I can do it. The current article claims that such reports were a hoax.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_aircraft#Soviet_Nuclear_Bomber_hoax
    .
    “…whilst US engine tests on an experimental craft got nowhere.”
    .
    This was ORNL’s Aircraft Reactor Experiment (ARE), consisting of the first MSR, heat exchangers, and heat powered aircraft engines. The programme was essentially successful, but the elements were not combined into an operational aircraft by the time that ICBMs made the idea of permanently airborne bombers redundant. The programme then morphed into the Molten Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE), which appears to have been highly successful as a power generation reactor.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Nuclear_Propulsion
    .
    I don’t know how secretive the nuclear industry is, but the pro nuclear power community have seemed pretty open to me. It is true that political decisions about nuclear power in the UK were shrouded in secrecy, probably elsewhere too; this led to a lot of distrust from environmental activists.
    .
    I thought that James Lovelock was initially opposed to nuclear power, but changed his mind because he came to see global warming as a much greater threat.
    .
    There’s quite a lot of “spent fuel”, the US alone has about 70,000 tonnes, I think. I’m opposed to disposal of “spent fuel” for two main reasons. I’m worried that it can’t be kept from dispersing over the immense time-scale for which it will remain dangerous, but apart from that it’s just a waste; about 94% of its energy is yet to be released. This stuff should be stored until reactors that can burn it have been developed.
    .
    I’ve more to write, but I have a visitor now…

  191. “You cannot have bomb making factories and power production reactors at the same time, these two facets are incompatible, regardless of tying to introduce miracle indexes and wish constants.”
    .
    Sure edup, more dictation and piss taking from your incredible imagination. So do i take an “ordinary” punter’s uncomprehended, unreferencale techno blagging seriously? Or for example, “The Union of Concerned Scientists” literature?
    .
    http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuclear_power_risk/nuclear_proliferation_and_terrorism/
    “UCS opposes reprocessing—a method of extracting plutonium from spent nuclear fuel for reuse—because it opens the door to nuclear proliferation and terrorism.”
    .
    There is NO reference in this thread to even a half qualified statement that isotopes for bombs can not be produced in power producing reactors. There is just a hell of alot of standard prancing and prattling from Fedup, joined by a remarkabley patient and curious Clark who is very ambitiously trying to derive a reliable statement on the matter himself -from wikipedia draughts! Its nuclear tech guys! GET A GRIP

  192. So do i take an “ordinary” punter’s uncomprehended, unreferencale techno blagging seriously? Or for example, “The Union of Concerned Scientists” literature?
    ,
    Crab you can fucking take it any which way you like included with Vaseline. Wow Isotopes is that the word of the day out of the round window?!!!!! fucking pathetic “edup”. now git.

  193. Clark,
    I will do a bit of chasing and see if I can dig a reliable source, for the first part of “Clark 27 Jan, 2012 – 2:19 pm”,
    ,
    As for:
    I have been unable to discover if the Bushehr reactor could be operated in a low burnup mode to produce weapons-grade plutonium. Adequate inspections would eliminate such a risk, but Iran’s enemies will deploy FUD nonetheless.
    ,
    Although you are aware of FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) factor promoted around the Iranian nuclear power production, then you fall into the trap. Why would anyone wish to destroy their PWR pushing it to run hot?
    ,
    As you have said Iran’s enemies, and the enemies of people like you and I, have for long tried to milk the last bit of profits from every worn out bit of obsolete technology at their disposal (consider this as return on investment), yielding grudgingly to advances only as a last resort. Fact that nuclear power production is the cheapest method of power production, fact that nuclear engineering can complement various fields of engineering, food and medicine, aside, this particular field has been suppressed in case someone somewhere made a bomb!!!!
    ,
    The vested interests whose vision statement is; hold the bastards down at all costs, are not going to let you and I and Iranians, live a life free from molestation and interference. These bunch of venal and corrupt bastards will always have plausible excuse, it is up to you and I not to fall into their trap.
    ,
    I hope you enjoyed your visitor.

  194. Fedup, I’m not particularly scared about Iran building a nuclear weapon, and I don’t even think it is likely. However, if the Bushehr reactor could be made to produce weapons-grade plutonium, we should say so, rather than pretending that it is impossible in some misguided act of support for Iran, or we’ll just discredit ourselves and lose the argument. Besides, are you sure that running a PWR in weapons grade plutonium production mode actually does damage it? I haven’t heard this before.
    .
    Nuclear reactors last some thirty to forty years. This is a longer timescale than many political regimes, and plenty of time for threats and pressures upon a country to change, so the capabilities of the reactors ought to be considered. Politicians will order the most desperate measures to obtain plutonium if they feel sufficiently threatened; just look at what the UK did at Windscale in the 1950s. What if the US reduces Iran to chaos like they did Iraq? The Iranian nuclear facilities could end up under the control of almost any random group.
    .
    Crab, I rather like Wikipedia. I know it has been criticised for inaccuracy, and I’ve seen some pretty dreadful articles a few years ago, but I think the quality has improved enormously and remarkably quickly. Ultimately, an open, collaborative effort like Wikipedia is the only way to produce a definitive encyclopedia. Any approach that is restricted to “experts” is vulnerable to criticisms of institutional bias. As the concept has caught on, Wikipedia has attracted quite a lot of expert contributors. The “Talk” pages are often very interesting.

  195. Clark,
    We are going back now. Here we face the classic problem; do we believe the lies, or our eyes?
    ,
    How do you think uranium is transmuted into plutonium? If the decision is to get as much plutonium then there is a need for it to be produced, as you have already pointed out;
    ,
    ….which were designed to produce either electricity or weapons material, were operated at low power levels with frequent fuel changes using online refuelling to produce weapons-grade plutonium. Such operation is not possible with the light water reactors most commonly used to produce electric power

    ,
    This thread has been episodes of good debate that is questioning the current myths surrounding the use of nuclear power production, that is spasmodically given to henny penny skies are falling then coming back to sanity, and so forth.
    ,
    ,
    Fact is, Iran is in the business of energy supply, she is supplying Gas, Hydrocarbons, and electricity. In fact she exports electricity to Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, etc. and even Kuwait if I am not mistaken. Therefore her efforts in developing her indigenous nuclear industry, is an extension to their business model.
    ,
    You mention the long life of reactors and see this as a negative, also you are pointing out that if pressures were put on Iran, etc. ,
    Fact is these pressures ought not be on Iran, and as I have already pointed out, it is up to you and I not to subscribe into the utter bilge so prevalent in all affairs nuclear, and Iran.
    ,
    Finally, Pakistani/Indian bombs ought to be sources of more worry than any Iranian would be, could be, bombs. Further, given the degrees of instability that Isreal is experiencing, as well as the overstated and overblown nationalism inherent in zionism that is congenitally afflicted with massada complex in combination of her being in possession of nukes and hydrogen bombs, you are worried about what if the various groups in Iran tried this and that sometime into the future?
    ,
    Clark check and see what is your energy bill, and ask yourself could it have been cheaper? Why is it not, ought to be your next question?

  196. Fedup, I’m not sure of the accuracy of this line: “Such operation is not possible with the light water reactors most commonly used to produce electric power”. It’s in Wikipedia, but it carries no citation, I know of no theoretical support for it, and this article contradicts it:
    .
    http://web.archive.org/web/20060307121518/http://www.nautilus.org/archives/pub/ftp/napsnet/papers/hayes1193.txt
    .
    I’m also not sure that plutonium 239 contaminated with plutonium 240 cannot be made into a nuclear weapon. OK, such a weapon might blow up prematurely, but (1) that’s obviously a problem to a country with hundreds of nukes, but if it doesn’t happen very often it might be acceptable to a desperate regime that can only make a few, and (2) plutonium can be used as part of a weapon such as a dirty bomb even if you can’t get it to explode as a nuke.
    .
    I’m not singling out Iran for special treatment, in fact that part of my paragraph didn’t mention Iran. I think that all nuclear installations should be monitored for diversion of nuclear materials; in Iran, UK, USA, North Korea, wherever. I think you’re underestimating the potential dangers from plutonium proliferation. We should expect nuclear power to carry grave dangers because it is so powerful – one kilo of uranium can yield as much energy as three million kilos of coal.
    .
    Yes, energy bills are too high (ie price fixing and excessive profits), but equally, many people in our society are too poor (ie couldn’t afford enough energy even if the price was fair). Yes, greedy corporations will exaggerate and publicise dangers in order to boost profits, but this doesn’t mean the dangers are all lies; a real danger is easier to exploit than a false, invented one.

  197. “Crab, I rather like Wikipedia.”
    So do I Clark but best personally as a learning tool -The kind of learning which takes time and practice to learn, not just the few moments hazarded to see if the articles served before me reveal a certain position. I hazard too – but it should be about the learning. I “know” about just a couple of subjects and crafts well enough to dictate and answer questions well on.
    For a complex outcome of developed science, it really fucking helps to well learned in the feild to make big claims like fedup has been doing, preposterously, and you have been searching wikipedia for clues, while really you are mostly learning i presume. I mean, the learned generally try to correct WP articles rather than analyse them.
    .
    Anyway, I only have a hunch that the particular point i questioned fedup on is wrong, just a hunch that nuclear powerplants could and probably have been designed to produce both power *and* spent fuel suitable for refinement for nuclear weapons. >> But i dont claim my hunch is otherwise.
    .
    Fedup dodged the requests for references, while talking down freely, the truely ridiculous thought experiment, the answers “your confusion” etc, the restatement of his original claim along with nothing but sillyness and rudeness. I see his final reply is just a cartoon insult – vaseline ho ho. We will see how this not giving a shit will pan out on the blog…
    .
    Obviously ive got my own mood. But that silly windbag deserves all the ridicule he has been getting and i dont see the worth of pretending to have sensible conversations with him.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    You know Tony12 volunteered to Craigs request earlier. Any news Tony???? iirc he often misses comments.

  198. [Mod/jon - offensive, removed - please be civil]

  199. “…a hunch that nuclear powerplants could and probably have been designed to produce both power *and* spent fuel suitable for refinement for nuclear weapons.”

    Given politicians’ hunger for plutonium and power, this does seem likely. Or maybe Pu 239/240 separation isn’t so hard, or maybe there is some way around the spontaneous fission of Pu 240. These matters concern weapon design and manufacture, and are likely hidden behind far more secrecy than civilian power generation. Too many “maybes”; it seems right to regard plutonium proliferation as dangerous, even before we consider its chemical (as opposed to radioactive) toxicity and the possibility of dirty bombs or other deliberate contamination.
    .
    Fedup, please note that I’m not accusing Iran of anything here. I’m discussing rules that should be applied generally. Probably one of the countries deserving most attention is Israel, with its 300 or so undeclared nuclear warheads, and a known history of false flag operations.
    .
    It seems the best approach to plutonium is not to produce it in the first place, and that means not putting U238 into reactors; it’s just one neutron absorption from Pu239. Thorium 232 is four times as abundant as U238, and literally dirt cheap as it’s common in waste “tailings” from other mining operations. It is also seven neutron absorptions from Pu239.
    .
    I’m cynical enough to suspect that governments see this the other way around entirely; just possessing plutonium bestows power, even without the ability to make it into a bomb. Why on Earth would they use thorium when using U238 will give them plutonium?
    .
    This all reminds me of Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings, with plutonium as the One, the Ruling Ring which bestows absolute power, but the desire for which corrupts absolutely.

    One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
    One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

    The only solution to the existence of the One Ring was to destroy it, and the only way to do so was to return it to the fire by which it was forged.
    .
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kirksorensen/2011/07/27/waste-digester/

  200. Fedup, please don’t be offensive to Crab, who I believe has a good heart. Offensive language will also get you on the moderators’ “watch list”!
    .
    Crab, I’m glad of the discussion with Fedup, though I agree with you that he overstates his argument and is overconfident of being right. But this discussion has been useful to me; I didn’t know of the different operating regimes of the Magnox reactors, for instance, nor that North Korea’s reactors were developed from the UK Magnox design. It’s far more fun looking into these matters as part of a discussion than just exploring it all on my own, and for that I need an opponent.
    .
    Besides, this is how consensus is built – small point by small point.

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