Edinburgh Islamophobia Conference

by craig on March 15, 2013 7:56 am in Uncategorized

Islamophobia conf March v12

(You have to click on the link, then click it again when the blog reappears. No idea why).

I have been back in Edinburgh this last few days, and will be speaking at this conference on Islamophobia tomorrow.

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96 Comments

  1. Should make a nice change from ‘Sassanachophobia’.

  2. Your link links back to the blog. Good luck with the talk. I could not have timed my latest article better to coincide with this. “Big sister Theresa May and the rise of Anti-Islam”.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/03/14/big-sister-theresa-may-and-the-rise-of-anti-islam-in-the-uk/

  3. Good luck Craig and look after yourself. I admire your energy and commitment in spite of your health concerns.

    Obomber has been speaking on Israel’s Channel 2, upping the anti Iran rhetoric, again.

    In interview with Israeli TV, Obama says Iran a year away from attaining nuclear weapon
    By Associated Press,
    March 14

    JERUSALEM — Iran is about a year away from developing a nuclear weapon and the United States remains committed to doing everything in its power to prevent that from happening, President Barack Obama said in an exclusive interview aired Thursday on Israeli TV.

    Just days before he is to arrive in Israel for his first presidential visit, Obama told Israel’s Channel 2 TV that while he still prefers diplomacy over force, but that a nuclear Iran is a “red line” and all options remain on the table to stop it.

    /..
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-interview-with-israeli-tv-obama-says-iran-a-year-away-from-attaining-nuclear-weapon/2013/03/14/12b4677c-8cd5-11e2-adca-74ab31da3399_story.html

  4. Curious affair that hatred of Islam and Muslims is coined to be “Islamophobia” whilst any kind of unkind remarks towards certain other groups is considered anti… , hate speech, genocidal intent, old enmities etc.

    Fact that post the collapse of the Soviet Union, the hate apparatus so assiduously assembled to rubbish the “commie bastards” turned to find a new enemy, and presto found it in the Muslims, and before long the al qaeda became to be the operating arm of these dastardly Muslims bent on world domination. The absurdity of this simple narrative that shadows the lines of the man from uncle series; SMASH replaced by al qaeda, with an ever unfolding narrative of al qaeda being an international organisation of evil based on the evil doctrine of Islam that is ran by the evil Muslims then is explained away as the “fear of Islam”.

    Even the progressives who intend to fight this patent bigotry then fall into the trap of trying to enlighten the world and allay their “fears” about Islam. Fact that there is a whole industry of hate that ranges from the movies ran in theatres, news clips ran on the TV to the vast column inches of the hate speech in print in addition to the unlicensed scatology of the internet blogs all working in unison to propagate and reinforce the hatred of all thing Muslim somewhat going unnoticed and in fact being tolerated.

    The racist sub-contexts along with the hate constructs set in place have coalesced into an acceptable form of hatred that yields hatred of Muslims to be expressed freely and without much shame or let.

    As in Orwell’s “politics and English language”, perhaps it is time to clarify that it is not fear of Islam that is the issue (that in fact legitimises the current wave of hatred towards Muslims), it is the outright hatred of Muslims and “Coloureds” that is the issue.

  5. Living in Edinburgh as I do I would love to attend, but unfortunately I have a very busy day tomorrow doing other things I can’t get out of doing. More notice next time please Craig! And good luck with the conference and with whatever else you’re up to while you’re here.

  6. Very well said and researched John Goss. She is indeed a very dangerous woman and is being aided in her prime ministerial ambitions by slippery Farage and his UKIP brigade who scaremonger on immigration.

    There is a new ‘I’ bogey word in the lexicon now, Immigrant.

    I was assisted by a helpful young man in a Homebase yesterday when trying to find a wheelbarrow tyre. The tyre places round here do not want to be bothered mending a puncture in the inner tube and I cannot remove the outer cover to do it myself.

    Anyway he located the one tyre they had in stock and took me up to the till to get the price, which was very reasonable. I had found out from him that he was on IDS’s Work Experience scheme and got no salary from Homebase, just his ‘job seeker’s allowance’ from the DWP, as the pittance is called

    How degrading and demoralizing for a skilled man (he is a mechanic) to be treated like this!

    I commented to the till assistant how helpful her colleague had been and awful this workfare scheme was and that there no jobs. All she could say was that there were no jobs because there were too many immigrants and they had taken all the jobs! I remonstrated with her but I could see I was not making any impression.

    In another store where I was trying to find non-GM chicken pellets, I was helped by another young man with one of those lovely smiles. He is a special needs teacher and because of the Surrey CC cuts, is now working on a till. Shocking isn’t it.

    The ones who blame the immigrants never blame the bankers and their pals in Whitehall.

  7. Sorry above should have gone on a previous thread where John Goss had linked to his good piece about Theresa May.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/03/14/big-sister-theresa-may-and-the-rise-of-anti-islam-in-the-uk/

  8. If some Muslims, especially amongst those who do not work and mix with ordinary UK folk, put behind them their chips on their shoulders about being oppressed by this country and behaved decently and honestly to its present inhabitants, then most of the Islamophobia would I believe disappear.

    The Chips on the shoulder about the past seem to survive the acquisition of several huge houses ( in some cases ) + free education from primary to post-graduate, + houses and property abroad, + large families. One Muslim brother recently said to me that he used to wish that all the ‘gora’ ended up begging for pence in the streets of Karachi. Engineering degree, 6 children, reasonable job, own house, early 40s. How does this racism come across to non-Muslims if I as a Muslim find it shocking. It is actually the affluence of the rest of his Muslim family that evokes these sour grapes, not the wretched lives of his English neighbours.

    I would not judge them if they did not judge us. But the fact is that most of the Asian mosque administrations or their colleagues who attend, are in the business of the highly destructive and haram activity of spying on other Muslims, many for the benefits they obtain from UK government agencies. This is not like the electronic intifada where the spying is against the multi-billion dollar funded israeli state, but against simple people who have no=one else to turn to after coming into Islam or being born Muslims, other than the responsible mosque people. Their behaviour of spying disgusts me as much as Straw. There is after all no law stopping Straw from lying about abusing his fellow human beings. Why not spy on Straw’s private life, instead of interfering with UK Muslims?

    It is not Islamophobia that is the problem. It is cannibalism and dog eat dog within the Muslim community. No apologies.

  9. Revealing and v interesting comment Guano.

  10. The Chips on the shoulder about the past seem to survive the acquisition of several huge houses ( in some cases ) + free education from primary to post-graduate, + houses and property abroad, + large families.

    Where do you live mate? What free post graduate education? What kind of a free university education? As regards the primary and secondary education; it barely is sufficient for the kids to come out managing to write their name and add up their fingers and toes.

    Your unapologetic attack on some ill educated and illiterate samples whom happen to be put under the screws to spy for the various (768 agencies no less) on the fellow Muslims disgust you, yet the system that bears down on the said spies to spy on the ordinary Muslims does not concern you? Don’t you think you have gone native and in fact you are only echoing the racist sentiments of those anti Muslims?

    The fact that the so called religious leadership is all too ready to be so cooperative in shopping the next Muslim in their flock can be understood from the stories such as this:

    Hate cleric Abu Hamza’s hook hand to be replaced with a ‘spork’

    The stenographer Jessica Chasmar- of The Washington Times waxes lyrical about the fact that the authorities have removed his hook for fears of security threat. This cretin however forgets to mention to her readership that Hamza has stumps for both hands and without his hooks as his lawyers have stated he will have difficulty in feeding himself or even going to toilet (torture at its finest).

    Further reading the comment sections the blind hatred of the emotionally charged retards whom have no idea about the object of their hatred, nonetheless start pouring bile and engaging in who can hate the best competition.

    With Muslims like you mate, Muslims need precious few enemies. So far as the rest of your generalisations go, there is not enough time to respond in this blog. However, having read your assessment of the Assad, and Syrians struggle for keeping their country free from the mercenaries of Eric Prince (ex blackwater chief) operating out of Qatar and getting his money from the pederast sheikhs. That you seem to be against Assad and his “murderous” regime.

    What kind of a Muslim are you, if in fact you are not posing as a Muslim, and ranting away in this blog and elsewhere?

  11. The Muslims who I recently worked for spend all week lying and cheating, then rush off to the super orthodox hadith mosque to get their Friday prayers certificate of integrity. Compulsory attendance, you have to be seen attending the correct sermon’s racist agenda. All the other Muslims and all the other non-Muslims are going to the Hell-fire except our tiny little group that has nurtured hatred for the British for two centuries when the East India Company dominated India.

    Aangirfan has recently exposed the fact that the majority of the bankers and directors of the East India company were Jewish, same as the majority of the bankers and owners of the Slave Trade from Africa were Jewish, same as most of the bankers and directors of world banking today, the same group of people who shelter inside the safety of the leafy suburbs of the UK and get the blame for the genocides and barbarities they orchestrate passed onto the English nation, as is happening at this present time in Syria. The Muslims are supposed to be a people of discernment and truth-seeking, but they are quite content to hide under the banner of Islamophobia. Western people are absolutely fed up of taking the blame for their governments being blackmailed into bombing and droning and creating civil wars. If the Muslims cannot understand the difference between the people and the Zionjist controlled governments WHILE THEY ARE ACTUALLY LIVING IN THE WEST AND KEEPING THEIR MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT WESTERN FOREIGN POLICY, who is there to speak the truth for them?

    I want to add this to my blast against spying in the Muslim community. The Muslims are aware of the history of marriage-break-up in my family and they are feeling the pain of their own marriages breaking up in this non-Muslim society. They know the rule of Islam that they should only live in the surroundings of an Islamic community. They chose to be here to avoid the havoc created in their own countries. After they have made it clear that they are watching you because you are an outsider, not apke, one of your own people, they threaten you that what they find you doing will affect how they treat you. If they find something they don’t like, such as criticism, they will make life hard for you, in your private and work life. But they never think that their spying on you also has an undermining effect on you and your psychology. They blib on about the UK persecuting them, but they never look at their own selves and their own behaviour.

    If you go to another country, you have to prepare your mind for the conditions of that country, its strengths, its weaknesses, its drawbacks and bonusses. Never never never forget that we did not choose our governments or their foreign policy, and those who came here chose to come here. They constantly try to deal with what they do not like about the historical and present and future oppression by our governments of the Muslims by scapegoating the English ordinary people and accusing them of being racist. The mosques are cess-pits of collective racism and that’s the way the government wants to keep the narrative by allowing conferences on Islamophobia.

    Muslims seem to think that the English have forgotten all the bad things we have personally done to them. They cannot change government policy themselves any more than we can. We didn’t do Iraq. We didn’t do Libya. The Muslims find it necessary to preserve the narrative that the English people are all criminal oppressors of Islam in order to justify to themselves the lies, scams, racisms and crimes they continuously perpetrate on the English people. Why do they buy the government narrative so unquestionably. Why do they buy the narrative of being victims of English society, when they are actually the victims of Zionist/English government? And they don’t have the guts to call a spade, a spade. Why do they flock to listen to the Caribbean Imam? because his narrative of hatred is rightfully more racist and more divisive than their own Asian one. Why do they choose a more divisive narrative than their own? We are witness in our lifetimes to the crimes committed openly in war, the rape the torture, the displacement, the daily murder. The whole world is aware that what is taking place in Iraq and Syria is what the British did before. So why do they choose the narrative that comes from the slave-trade? Check out who funded that abomination before putting the blame on the citizens of the UK of 2013.

    The rhetoric of Islamophobia is a tool of the establishment to shunt the blame for their unspeakable crimes onto ordinary UK citizens. Check it out.

  12. “What kind of Muslim are you?”

    That’s exactly the kind of attitude that creates the problems we have today. Westerners trying to impose on Muslims how we think they should behave. Utterly nonsensical.

    Who says there is a ‘correct’ way for a Muslim to behave?

    The Islamaphobia Industry is also happily pursued by the community ‘leaders’, 99% of them elderly males with little compression of the choices faced by young people today.

  13. Mary at 10.01 a.m. My heart goes out to all young people who have to work on the Cameron work-for-nothing schemes. Our P.M. is not much different from Karimov. The work experience is not much different from slavery. There are no jobs at the end of these forced labour initiatives. There are only a certain number of jobs in the country and vacancies are going down, not up. You do not have to be a mathematician. A kindly employer might offer somebody work if a) a vacancy is available b) they want to reward willingness – but this is not willingness, those on these schemes have no option.

  14. The Muslims who I recently worked for spend all week lying and cheating, then rush off to the super orthodox hadith mosque to get their Friday prayers certificate of integrity.

    Your sample population of shirkers and pretenders is in fact reflective of the majority of the Muslims and really shows the swine that they are?

    What kind of an unreasonable and out of whack, angry, confused statement is that?

    You are not answering the earlier questions put to you. Further, you then come back with the same rant and then some about the racist Muslims hating the English? So fact that the poor “coloured” kid is called : “oi, Abdul White”, “oi Kemosabe” , his mother or sister wearing Niqab getting spat on, and getting attacked, and verbally abused, or getting set upon because he is a “Paki Bastard” play no part in the minds of the Muslims and their nurtured chip on their shoulders?

    I put to you again, where do you live mate?

    Your basic mistakes about the English way of life somehow excludes you from living in UK, that by default excludes you from opining about the racist Muslims hating the English instead of the zionists?

    Come clean mate and don’t dance around the issues, answer the questions and let us come to some kind of a conclusion, instead of the usual scatological blunderbuss approach of covering all the angles except the angle that matters; the endemic and routine hatred of Muslims in UK, Europe and the West.

  15. The link to the conference in case you can’t get it.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Islamophobia-conf-March-v12.pdf

    ::::

    There is a hostage situation going on in Manchester. Armed riot police in droves. Hope it is not another terrrrrr arrest.

  16. Nevermind
    I was referring to a man of my own age 50 + who has received an OBE and who like me received a free University education.
    What kind of a Muslim am I. I am one who has rejected the lies of my own culture and class and discovered that the Muslims aspire strenuously to be the same as those I have chosen to leave.

    I have described their aspirations to be like the old occupants of the disgusting British Raj, like a dog sniffing the hormones of another dead dog. The colonial class is extinct praise be to God, but I have to witness the disgusting spectacle of my brothers in Islam dreaming about how to achieve the same arrogance, wealth, power and distaste for humanity. Again , no apologies.

  17. November

    I live in the centre of the largest Muslim population in Europe.
    I have never experienced any of the racism you describe because we are the majority in our community. I believe that where such racism exists, such as in Stoke-on Trent, it is partly because the Muslims are seen frequenting places of disrepute, dealing in haram, taking advantage in the Rochdale habit of grooming English women, and generally setting a bad example. Don’t forget that lying smoothly about a second hand car counts as setting a bad example of Islam. promising to do something and not delivering their side of the deal counts as setting a bad example.

    Allah says in the Qur’an that those Muslims live amongst non-Muslims who set a bad example to the non-Muslims will have two punishments: one for not practising Islam properly and 2 for not showing people a good example.

    Apart from that my point is that the Muslims all know the principle of divide and rule. Why do they not comprehend that the ignorant who have been fed Islamophobic trash by the Zionist media, and whose brethren have been killed or maimed in Afghanistan, and who insult Muslims in the way you described, are being manipulated by the war criminals to take the flack for their war crimes. The Zionist media has divided the ordinary citizens on religious/ethnic/cultural lines so that the focus is on community tension and away from the rape, torture, theft, murder that the Zionist backed UK government are doing across the Muslim world.

    There is no excuse for the Muslims to fall into the trap of Divide and Rule. Equal opportunities is rubbish because it does not permit Islamic practises to operate in the workplace. Muslims are free to abandon their own rules. Big deal. Islamophobia is crasp because it only serves to distract from our common enemy the governments that pour money into the Zionist agenda of weakening the Islamic world.

  18. doug scorgie

    15 Mar, 2013 - 3:42 pm

    Guano
    15 Mar, 2013 – 12:18 pm

    “If some Muslims, especially amongst those who do not work and mix with ordinary UK folk, put behind them their chips on their shoulders about being oppressed by this country and behaved decently and honestly to its present inhabitants, then most of the Islamophobia would I believe disappear.”

    You’re having a laugh again Guano.

    Also, you seem to hate Asian Muslims why so?

  19. Mary (2.18 p.m.) thanks for the link. I tried to point out that the one in Craig’s post is not working but I guess he did not get time to read it.

  20. doug scorgie

    15 Mar, 2013 - 4:32 pm

    November
    15 Mar, 2013 – 1:06 pm

    To Guano:

    “With Muslims like you mate, Muslims need precious few enemies.”

    Yes November. I have posted on other threads about Guano and his rantings. I suspect he is not a Muslim at all; I could be wrong but for some reason he disparages Asian Muslims and makes distasteful comments about Jews.

    He says, 15 Mar, 2013 – 1:20 pm:

    “Aangirfan has recently exposed the fact that the majority of the bankers and directors of the East India company were Jewish, same as the majority of the bankers and owners of the Slave Trade from Africa were Jewish…”

    I think his agenda is to elicit kneejerk responses from users of this blog, comments that could be construed to be racist against Muslims or Jews, which could bring this blog into disrepute.

  21. I have to witness the disgusting spectacle of my brothers in Islam dreaming about how to achieve the same arrogance, wealth, power and distaste for humanity. Again , no apologies.

    Throughout your statements, you hold Muslims to a higher standards of behaviour and self control. Let us clarify a few facts;

    Without getting too technical for none Muslims sake, do we agree that anyone who recites a certain verse of Quran is a Muslim, and in fact becoming a Muslim is even easier than applying for the Readers Digest Membership? Islam unlike the other faiths does not require a whole lot of rituals and pomp and ceremony for joining it.

    Given that different people find different reasons for joining Islam, is it not futile to question their motives and reasons for being a Muslim?

    Furthermore, as in any walk of life different people will use Islam for different ends and outcomes, there are those whom wish to attain a higher enlightenment, and there are those whom intend to sell insurance on the back of the Friday prayer.

    To condemn any of the Muslims is not the duty or task of Muslims, for condemnation is not a constructive criticism that is the given in Islam. In simple words to guide and advise fellow Muslims is the duty of every Muslim, and not wholesale denouncement and questioning of the motives and intentions of each other, with a view to establishing who is the best Muslim around.

    Islam is currently under a massive onslaught of attacks because it remains to be the only unifying force in an otherwise disparate and dislocated “Umma” (Islamic Nation, as in the Red Indian Nation, the whole bally lot of the Muslims). The fact that post the destruction of the Ottoman empire the resultant rise of various leaders, whom were put into positions of the leadership for the sake of running the natives as per the orders from upon high in London and elsewhere, somehow escapes your attention. Despite the fact that you hold the Englishmen to be not guilty of the crimes that has been perpetrated among the Nation of Islam by their government, yet you then proceed to charge the individual Muslims with guilt of racism, duplicity, and interloping with bad faith among the Englishmen.

    Your disappointment from some of the fellow Muslims, has resulted in your rejection of a genuine problem that is facing the Muslims in their daily lives. Unlike the Community Trust Fund there are no organisations to keep a tally of the attacks on Muslims, the appalling fact is even police forces do not compile records of attacks on Muslims, and in the current hostile climate of Muslim hating the daily attacks on Muslims are going unreported in the “Media” as well as the disheartened Muslims are reluctant to even report the attacks if these are not resulting in the loss of life and limb.

    You have in your frustration wrapped up all manner of grievances and then come to blame the Muslims for their own plight. This is not right, or logical, or fair for that matter. You have a naive expectation that every Muslim ought to be adhering to the highest standard of conduct, and failing that, they have asked for what they get!

    Fact that there will be individuals who will trade in traitorous behaviour is a given, in fact there are those who are making a living out of setting up various “foundations” and “institutes” taking the official Muslim bashing policies and then endorsing it. Then there are those who will set themselves up as the “community leaders” and get on with shoving their nose in the trough. It is natural, for without these agents, the forces of parasitic The City will not succeed in subjugating the “Umma” . Parasites always play on local agents to survive in the host body, it is nature.

    So for you to blame and admonish the ill educated, underprivileged Muslim population that has been forced to flee their own native lands because of the economic austerity brought on by syphoning of the local resources to coffers of their oppressors. For these mogrants intent on eking a marginally better lives through honest or dishonest means among foreign populations is a sad indictment of the degree of the hatred that has become so prevalent that now even Muslims hate themselves.

  22. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    15 Mar, 2013 - 4:36 pm

    I must say that in my own, possibly limited experience I don’t have much of a feeling that UK Muslims have a chip on their shoulder. There are, to be sure, a lot of disaffected Muslim youngsters around – as there are a lot of disaffected non-Muslims youngsters. And probably for the same (good) reasons.

  23. Guano

    “Aangirfan has recently exposed the fact that the majority of the bankers and directors of the East India company were Jewish, same as the majority of the bankers and owners of the Slave Trade from Africa were Jewish, same as most of the bankers and directors of world banking today”

    That is completely untrue, Guano. A tiny percentage of East India company directors were Jewish, and a tiny percentage of African slave owners. There are more scots than Jewish international bank directors.

    Fuck off with the racist nonsense.

  24. ……. for some reason he disparages Asian Muslims and makes distasteful comments about Jews.

    I have been reading the somewhat confused and conflicting contributions of the said individual, fact that on one hand he states the obvious manipulation of the masses by the “Media” with their zionist propensities, and then goes on to recite the headlines form the Sun and the Express and Evening standard is a puzzle. This is reflected in the references to Rochdale etc. the jingoistic and customary vehicles of propagating hatred against Muslims in UK.

    Further, he seems to be blissfully unaware of the pressures that the Muslim population is facing in their daily lives in UK and elsewhere in the West. He has a parochial view of the world that somehow is at odds with reality for anyone remotely familiar with the plight of the Muslims experiencing the waves of accepted hatred on a daily basis.

    However these confusing facet aside, then there are the anti Jew remarks that are probably rooted in the anti zionist world view he holds, fact that zionism is as much representative of Jews as is al qaeda representative of the Muslims aside, this to me indicates either a very clever psyop interloper trolling away, or a very frustrated and angry man who is lost in his own hatreds and grievances.

  25. Craig

    A bigger mind than yours has informed us about the Jews. You deny Him, so it’s not surprising you also deny me.

  26. BrianFujisan

    15 Mar, 2013 - 5:32 pm

    Ethnic Minorities Probably Know far more than we in the uk do, about what is going on in thier mother lands, (or parents, and Grandparents mother Lands ) whilst those of us concerned about international violations, and war mongering by the west, have sift through Alternative media outlets – Muslims must hear of much horrors first hand from folks back home.

    Any way GOOD to see the UN finding some balls over US drone attacks in Pakistan

    http://rt.com/news/pakistan-sovereignty-us-drone-318/

  27. A bigger mind than yours has informed us about the Jews. You deny Him, so it’s not surprising you also deny me.

    Oh so Pamela Geller and Atlas Shrugs off sort of remark there mate.

    Jews have the Torah you know, as you know Allah/God/Lord/Jehovah sent it too, and yes there are good Jews and bad Jews, as there are good Muslims and bad Muslims and then there is the good and bad Christians, Buddhists, Persons, ……

    In fact if it were not for the bad people good people would not be getting as much credit some would maintain.

  28. technicolour

    15 Mar, 2013 - 5:44 pm

    doesn’t sound like the Guano from yesterday (‘cotton’ thread p 2). wassup?

  29. Hmmmm, afraid I don’t think much of those sharing a Platform with you Craig. Bunglawala and Yvonne Ridley! :shock:

    Bungles has a somewhat dodgy record and a huge self interest in promoting this myth of Islamaphobia, as it keeps him in his prominent and unnecessary position of power. Institutions such as the MCB serve only to exacerbate inter community relations and their raison d’etre seems to be to promote further division with our society. But do press him on Gay rights if you get the chance Craig.

    Where to even start with Ridley, a fully paid up member of the Iranian governments propaganda wing. Ridley is a prime example of someone who gets away without scrutiny and confrontation because journalists, interviewers and presenters are always too soft, too frightened, or too ignorant to pick her up on her nonsense.

    I can’t imagine for a second Craig that someone such as yourself believes that any religion should be above, or immune to, criticism and mockery. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems to me that Islam is way too thin skinned as a religion and to indulge this trait even further will only lead to more problems.

  30. A bigger mind than yours has informed us about the Jews. You deny Him, so it’s not surprising you also deny me.

    Laugh or Cry?

  31. Muslims must hear of much horrors first hand from folks back home.

    Take a look at the propaganda on the Syrian crisis and note the Arabic content with little English around and take a good look at the ravaged and mangled souls and the destruction of the weapons that is so callously referred to as the “collateral damage”.

  32. The pre trial hearing has taken place for the three men preparing for acts of terrorism overseas. They have been held in custody since last July. They have pleaded guilty.

    The BBC have it as their main item on he 6 O’Clock News. The actual report is on the main page but is not the lead story.

    Dart, Alom and Mahmood plead guilty to terror charges
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21799217

    There are twelve uses of the words, terror, terrorist or terrorism on the page including in the five other news links at the bottom.

  33. s/be
    The pre trial hearing has taken place for the three men charged with preparing for acts of terrorism overseas.

  34. This thread is alive and still humming, but

    it loves to have the last word, as if to make out to those reading this blog, that it is the definitive axle on Craig Murray’s cart.

  35. doug scorgie

    15 Mar, 2013 - 7:55 pm

    On a lighter note, I’m told that Alcoholics Anonymous is participating in this year’s Red Nose Day.

  36. Guano,

    I am perfectly prepared to accept that Aangirfan or whoever has a “greater” mind than me. But whether the directors of the East India Company were or were not Jewish is not a question of metaphysics, it is a question of simple historical fact.

    I have spent all of the last three days in the National Archives of Scotland, just as I have spent most of the last four years in archives in India, Scotland and England, researching manuscripts for my biography of Alexander Burnes, a very senior employee of the East India Company.

    He dealt all the time with the Governor General, President of the Board of Control, and directors. I have not come across any one of them who was Jewish. It just isn.t true the East India Company was a Jewish body. If having a great mind means believing that the world is an evil Jewish plot, I am glad to have a plodding mind instead.

  37. For a long time, the UK has been awash with knives. It has a bloody history of knife ownership. There are still some strong advocates of knife ownership but we generally see it in slow decline as iPods have become popular. Rome has elected a new knife club president just the other day. Some people groaned.

    In the recent past, the UK permitted and seemed to encourage the migration of gun owners from countries that have gun ownership embedded in their constitution. Not only did the UK facilitate the entry of gun owners into the country, which would normally be fine, but they allowed them to bring their guns as well. Gun clubs have sprung up all around the country and it is the fastest growing hobby in the UK. One day, it is estimated that most Britons will be gun owners.

    Now, it is a truism that there will always be good people and bad people. Bad people do bad things. There are good knife owners and bad knife owners. The Roman knife club has been embroiled in controversy as some club members have been caught stabbing children. Many bad knife owners have got away with doing bad things.

    And there are good gun owners and bad gun owners. Sometimes we read about a gun owner going on a shooting rampage and killing several people. It is always a tragedy. Then the media raises the issue of gun ownership and people start debating the merits of gun control. People who criticise gun ownership are often shouted down and accused of hating gun owners.

    But it’s true that some people who are against gun ownership do hate gun owners. They’ve seen conflicts all over the world where there are fights between owners of guns and knives. Gun owners seem to come out on top. Hating gun owners is not going to resolve questions concerning problems related to gun ownership.

    On this blog, there are some gun owners and they seem to be nice people. But most contributors, I believe, are non-gun owners. Curiously, the non-gun owners are most enthusiastic in defending gun ownership, sometimes quoting rules from the user manual that demonstrate responsible ownership. Many times I have tried to point out that the user manual also advises occasional shooting of people who own iPods. But they ignore me and continue to quote all the good stuff in the manual as if that makes killing iPod owners irrelevant or OK. I find their attitude puzzling. I own an iPod and don’t like the idea of being harassed or murdered just for using it.

    I support the active discouragement of ownership of *all* weapons – knives and guns including Uzis.

    Please hand in your knives and guns and get yourself an iPod.

    . . .
    knife = an instance of belief in Christianity
    knife owner = Christian
    knife ownership = the Christian religion
    gun = an instance of belief in Islam
    gun owner = Muslim
    gun ownership = the Islamic religion
    iPod = an instance of belief in Atheism

  38. Craig

    Thanks for your reply. My mistake. Aangirfan was talking about the Dutch East India Company. The Spanish Inquisition resulted in some of the skills of Jewish people eventually being exported to non-Catholic countries such as Holland and when Oliver Cromwell needed finance, to the UK. Others transferred their trading skills, including the trade in slaves to the New World. They were forced by experience of expulsion to look for trans-national systems of conducting business which means that they were centuries ahead in the global business model we have today.

    Is that relevant to anything that is going on in the world today. In my mind very relevant indeed. Does that mean that I’m sitting with Tony Benn complaining about the ruin of nation state economies by global trade? My great grandfather had a shipping company in Cardiff and travelled the whole world. So of course I’m not saying anything against global trade.

    What I do believe is that where business is global it has always been difficult for nation states to tax it, and historically that has led to the ammassing of great fortunes, which in turn has enabled business to blackmail national foreign policy. The nation that deviates from its own national interest carries the burden of blame for its leaders compromised position and the people get the blame.

    Islamophobia is a distraction from state terrorism because it focuses on the tensions that exist inside our communities instead of the root cause of those tensions: privately sponsored state terrorism leading to immigration and blame. Why would I be unhappy with the import of Islam to this country? It’s the best thing that ever happened to me. But it carries with it a tendency for the immigrant population who were subjected to privately sponsored state terrorism in previous times to blame the people of the country that terrorised them. Which is very unjust as well as being very prevalent.

    I find it very ironic that now that Asian Muslims reside in affluence in this country, they are too lazy intellectually to explain why they do not blame themselves for their powerlessness at preventing the privately sponsored state terror of the war on terror on their own countries of exile. In the context of a discussion about Islamophobia it would be helpful for the Asian Muslims to state categorically now that they can now see that the UK people are absolutely free either individually or collectively from the crimes of their present or previous governments.

    That assurance , or promise to change attitudes on their side now that they see the situation on the ground, would I believe go a long way to solving the problems of ethnic tension, which the state sponsored media or if not -sponsored then state-liberated media consistently try to fuel. If ethnic groups want to remove prejudice, the onus is on them to remove the prejudices which they themselves have. They are capable of better analysis level than they currently exercise. Do they in fact like basking in the victim attention which the media, for its own agenda to hide the crimes of government, provides?

    I’m sorry to get wound up. I receive a lot of racism from lazy thinking, but highly intelligent, Muslims who conveniently post the blame for the present war on terror and previous crimes on us English. Even if we are ‘apke’ English like me, ‘one of your own kind’. Why not pin it on themselves? You have yourself a good day, in American parlance. ( teeth grind )

  39. In short. I find that many Asian Muslims think that there is no necessity for themselves to speak against the war on terror, because it is obvious that they are opposed to the destruction of their countries of exile, but that in the case of the English people the expressions of racist/religious hostility in the media and the ignorance of some members of the community means that the English people are complicit and collusive in their governments crimes. They should know better. They cannot ask the ignorant who are prejudiced to reform themselves when they refuse to eliminate their own prejudices. Sufficient time has elapsed for Asian Muslims to distinguish between the state and the people, and not to equate media malice with general malice against either foreigners or Islam. I am a witness of a decade and a half to some very unpleasant and difficult to budge prejudices from within the Muslim community. Patience is wearing thin in the UK. I beg the Muslim community to look at itself and its own part in fanning the flames of prejudice. If they want conflict, then that is entirely up to them.

  40. A rational ‘phobia’ of an irrational thought process, or a ‘phobia’ of criticising said irrational thought process?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9932108/Britons-afraid-to-challenge-radical-Islam-says-former-Obama-adviser.html

  41. I got the ‘it’s all the immigrants’ fault’ stuff again this morning. This from a retired multi national executive who took early retirement and so well off that he and his wife take about six holidays a year including to places in Australia, the Arctic circle, the Mediterranean, Europe and other countries.

    People will not accept that we are suffering from the massive bank fraud and collapse of the so called financial system in 2007/8. I heard on the World Service this morning that Cyprus has just been bailed out with $13 billion, caused by the knock-on effect of the Greek economy collapse which has affected the banks in Cyprus.

    We in the West are living in a very fragile giant house of cards.

  42. Adding this to twitter great info.

  43. What a rip off! Ms Lagarde and her cronies in the IMF and the ECB are imposing charges on savers in the Cyprus banks. Over 100,000 euros balance 9.9% and under 100,000 euros 6.75%. In other words, the savers and depositors are paying for the bail out. There are over 70 billion euros on deposit in Cypriot banks. Lagarde et al are robbers and bullies – Cyprus is small cf Spain, Portugal and Ireland.

    Eurozone and IMF agree 10bn-euro Cyprus bailout deal
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21797888

  44. Eh, Mary, Cyprus is absolutely stuffed full of dodgy money.

  45. Retro Jordans

    Saved you as Twit on Twister as well.

  46. I find that many Asian Muslims think that there is no necessity for themselves to speak against the war on terror,

    Tell that to Babar Ahmed who has been in HMP Bell-Marsh for running a website, tell that to umpteen others who have had their homes raided in fact one of them wound up with his home getting dismantled brick by brick. Everyday there is a new trail and some more Muslims are sent down for wanting to do all manner of things, and or reading the old “anarchists cookbook” that has been adapted by CIA and let loose to catch the Muslims in possession of it. What you find is most certainly end of your nose mate, and any more than that would be a fucking miracle.

    They cannot ask the ignorant who are prejudiced to reform themselves when they refuse to eliminate their own prejudices.

    So in other words Asians are ignorant as well as bastards to a man of them, and we should accept this because you are Muslim and you know this first hand!

    Sufficient time has elapsed for Asian Muslims to distinguish between the state and the people, and not to equate media malice with general malice against either foreigners or Islam.

    Wheehhheeyyyyy on goes the sermonising, what kind of drivel is this line? The media that is whipping up (legitimately legally openly) hatred against Muslims (the cryptic word for coloured immigrants) on a daily basis, which then is picked up by the “English” (albeit the ignorant ones, whom give not one fuck about facts and are more in tune with the thoughts; thought out for them by the Sun, Express, Daily Mail, Evening Standard, etc), however the ones at the receiving end of all this hatred ought to be discerning as to when they are getting kicked in and beat up as to whether it is general malice or state sponsored repression?

    What kind of philosophising are you engaged in mate?

    I am a witness of a decade and a half to some very unpleasant and difficult to budge prejudices from within the Muslim community. Patience is wearing thin in the UK. …………. in fanning the flames of prejudice. If they want conflict, then that is entirely up to them.

    So comes the threats with menaces, sort of a fate worse than worse than death could be awaiting the Muslim community, if they don’t get on bended knee and apologise wholeheartedly for their sins, and become good little “niggers” and get on with their chores with a daily prayer to thank Allah for the blessed “English”. When do we see the Muslims getting carted off to concentration camps for their sins and misdeeds?

    Fact that Sidekick General soon jumps in agreement with you, is a damned good indication of which side of the fence these kind of rhetoric land in (Palestinians ought to recognise zionistan, kind of shit) . You are blaming the victims of repression and violence and maintaining that they are hated because it is their own fault.

    Therefore there is no need for any changes in the law, to outlaw hatred against Muslims, or afford these Muslims the protection that Jews enjoy. Further, any measures in this direction are in fact distractions.

    Do Muslims a favour and go find yourself another religion mate, with pilgrims like you there is no need for any enemies for Muslims.

    PS what does “apke” mean and what language is it from? You keep using it in Julius Streicher fashion.

  47. Syria conflict: from peaceful protest to civil war;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21797661

  48. The main reason I can discern for ‘The Cypriot Charge’ is the fact that Cypriot banks are stuffed to the gills full of laundered Russian money.

    I think the Bundestag may have balked at bailing out Russian mobsters.

  49. technicolour

    16 Mar, 2013 - 6:44 pm

    November: “The media that is whipping up (legitimately legally openly)

    Not legitimately.

  50. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Mar, 2013 - 11:51 pm

    “The main reason I can discern for ‘The Cypriot Charge’ is the fact that Cypriot banks are stuffed to the gills full of laundered Russian money”

    Exactly.

    I wonder if the family firm of Assad and Son has a bank account or two there as well?

  51. Old geo-political take on Islamophobia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRMeRVHq03o

  52. Not legitimately.

    True, and I stand corrected, it ought to have been “freely, without any let or shame”. Good point.

  53. Cyprus president defends bailout deal amid public anger
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21818598

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicos_Anastasiades

    He was only elected president on 24 Feb and a few weeks later is stitching up his countrymen and women. Coming to other EU countries soon I reckon. A steal. Grand theft of the little people’s savings.

    He has done all the right things. Joining NATO. Doing as the banksters and Mrs Merkel tell him. He will go far.

    The Finance minister Sarris has his head held over a barrel too I think. He was involved in some homosexual sex scandal involving a minor 15 months ago. Google Translate have it as ‘Michalis Sarris is accused by the pseudo police for illegal “sexual relationship against the laws of nature.”!

    http://www.sigmalive.com/simerini/news/local/428411

    There is a big stink coming in a meeting of the Cypriot parliament now postponed of course by order of the banksters.

  54. November

    Apke is a racist term meaning ‘your own kind’.Urdu.

  55. November

    as you yourself pointed out, I have a higher standard for Muslims than non-Muslims. Correct. Why is it so unthinkable for you as well that if non-Muslims project their fears onto the Muslims and become racist in their attitudes that Muslims do not do the same? Why is it so sacrosanct for you that the ethnic minorities victims of media and social oppression should themselves never oppress the minorities within their own circles of influence. They do. And what is more, they know that they do.

  56. November

    There is an ichtilaf/disagreement amongst the Asian Muslims on the time of the afternoon prayer, maximium difference between these two times is about 50 minutes. One brother who I was working for recently concealed the time he prayed the afternoon prayer from me but because we were sitting talking accidentally revealed that he was about to miss his prayer. Which means that he didn’t want me to know that he belonged to a group who would accuse me of being a non-Muslim, and in another context would rob me or kill me without hesitation. You know nothing at all about the extraordinary bullying that takes place inside Islam.

    One imam once announced an education programme for the ignorant people. So I thought he was talking about the non-Muslims. No he was talking about the people outside the saved sect of his own circle. At one point in history the Muslims from India colonised Burma and enslaved the indigenous people as in fact the Saudis have enslaved the poor workers from the Far East who come to do domestic service and construction there. There is a very fine line between defining your brother as ignorant and as non-Muslim, or as servant and slave. When the Muslims hold power in their hands, and they believe in my case that they have the key of power over me in my religion, they exercise that power mercilessly and ruthlessly. Is that Islam or Islamophoneya?

  57. Firstly your brief reply does not address some of the questions that has been put to you, ie as in the use of “apke” what does this mean and which language is it from as yet still remain a mystery.

    Secondly you go onto reiterating:

    I have a higher standard for Muslims than non-Muslims.

    What kind of authority do you bestow upon yourself? On what grounds do you give yourself this power? Why do you even think that Muslims ought to be held to higher standards of conduct? What basis do you believe affords you the right to expect thus?

    Don’t you think that, you are really a very poor Muslim and have little understanding of what Islam is about? Can you in fact read Arabic? Further can you comprehend Arabic?

    Why is it so unthinkable for you as well that if non-Muslims project their fears onto the Muslims and become racist in their attitudes that Muslims do not do the same?

    This statement is so wrong in so many levels that is unbelievable. Further, this shows you have no understanding of the realities that the “Muslim” (foreigners, immigrants, anyone with a slight colour variation) community is facing, in the current hostile climate that has been brought on by the deliberate fanning of the flames of hatred by successive governments in UK.

    Fact that you sanguinely refer to the racism that majority engage in as a matter of routine, and justify this as being rooted in their fears, is clearly an indication of an unhealthy and racist attitude that you harbour yourself. Further, although you claim to be familiar with the “Muslims” you somehow set yourself as the judge and pontificate; Muslims ought to be adhering to higher standards of conduct and if these fail in doing so, then they are in fact asking for the racism and hatred that is directed at them. A convenient cover for your own racist attitude, towards your so called fellow Muslims.

    You seem to have learnt nothing, and have no clue about the struggle of being different and an outsider in UK. The daily two minutes hate of the “Media” the movies, the computer games, the print media, the TV all rubbishing the Muslims (read immigrants, and coloured people) away freely, legally, openly, overtly, without any let or getting shamed. The larger host community refusing to accept the new comers (despite these having been born in the UK) as equals or to absorb these, and instead pushes these souls to coalesce together and form their own islands amidst the host society.

    These islands magnifying the “fears” as you have coined, and become the focal point of racist hatreds and attacks on those commuting in and out of the said islands. However, because every Muslim ought to be a blessed saint as per your ruling, these attacks and constant waves of harassment ought not to distort their views, and these sainted Muslims all ought to be enjoying their suffering and be grateful for having been subjected to the inordinate amounts of abuse and hurt.

    Further, fact that you claim you were educated for free somehow has not been fully explained to you. You went to university for free, because your government was busy fleecing the wealth of these “coloured immigrants’ countries”, these poor bastards were left with the choice of staying behind and facing hunger, and destitution or up sticks and come to the place that was syphoning the wealth away to work in a Blati restaurant and get abused by the late night drunkards, or drive a bus, and or clean the toilets and or such high yield occupations!

    Fact is ignorant racist toads never understand that these immigrants have every right to be in this country because their fathers and forefathers have subsidised this country for the benefit of the racist bastards whom now are busy dishing out punishment to these “outsiders”.

    Why is it so sacrosanct for you that the ethnic minorities victims of media and social oppression should themselves never oppress the minorities within their own circles of influence.

    What the fuck are you on about mate? Are you trying to say that you have the right to abuse the “coloureds” because although you are in a minority that is getting abused and socially oppressed, but you have every right to abuse these “coloured immigrants” because that is the rule?

    Finally don’t go and post a couple of lines reiterating your bigotry, and instead answer the questions and or do a souls searching as a Muslim you are required to that, as surely you ought to know.

  58. When the Muslims hold power in their hands, and they believe in my case that they have the key of power over me in my religion, they exercise that power mercilessly and ruthlessly. Is that Islam or Islamophoneya?

    I had a really good laugh at this, thanks Guano.

    This last post ought to be debated in a separate line, even perhaps in tandem with the existing debate. Fact is, you are highlighting the power struggle that is currency within the poorly educated communities, among the imams, and their power support structures.

    This does not have anything to do with Islam, or Muslims, and it has everything to do with the useless, greedy bastards whom are busy looking after their own interests. Why do you think the vicious carnage of Muslims in Pakistan goes on, that is perpetrated by the fellow so called Muslims?

    BTW no one holds power over you, that is the beauty of Islam, only Allah is the mighty and nothing/none/no one else, if need be we can debate this too, in a separate line.

  59. Guano,

    On the last post, if you want to even be more shocked the following is a glimpse into the current power struggle between the various imams and their power support structures;

    During the last attack of zionistan on Lebanon, the grand imam of Jeddah (I believe) issued a “Fatwa” (a religious ruling/edict that followers ought to adhere to) forbidding the Saudis from praying for the Hezbollah fighters, who were getting bombarded and killed by the zionists weapons. For these “refuseniks” were deserving of the death and destruction that was getting raining upon them.

    This of course is rooted in the fear of the Al Saud rulers, because they find Shia resistance and opposition to zionists and the levels of their success in their opposition (the drubbing that Hezbollah fighters gave to the elite Golani Brigade and the various successful rocket attacks that nearly sunk a very sophisticated zionist destroyer, and the numbers of merkava tanks that were reduced to burning hulks, as well as paralysing zionistan for a week) is undermining their position (the Al Saud) in the eyes of the Saudis.

  60. November

    What’s difficult to understand about saying that Muslims are racist as well as other types of people. They should get the planks out of their own eyes before complaining about Islamophobia. Think. Do. Thanks. is all I want to hear. Not expecting apologies either.

  61. Guano,

    Go read the points forwarded again.

  62. doug scorgie

    17 Mar, 2013 - 8:09 pm

    guano
    17 Mar, 2013 – 5:08 pm:

    “When the Muslims hold power in their hands, and they believe in my case that they have the key of power over me in my religion, they exercise that power mercilessly and ruthlessly.”

    “Is that Islam or Islamophoneya?”

    No Guano, it’s just bollocks.

  63. Doug Scorgie

    Pdum pdum, pdum pdum, pdumperdumperdumperdumperdu-u-u-u-u-mperdumperdumper dummmmmmmmmm. Pahhhhhhh.

    Not everything is as nice as pink panther cartoons. No its not bollocks.

  64. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Mar, 2013 - 11:40 pm

    “Not everything is as nice as pink panther cartoons. No its not bollocks.”

    I should rather say that this interchange between Guano and November has gone on for far too long. It is mostly incomprehensible and very, very boring.

    So be good boys and put a sock in it, huh?

    *********

    La vita è bella, life is good! (read Habbabkuk for interesting posts with
    intellectual firepower)

  65. DS

    Before the arrival of the prophet Muhammad SAW the only religion which explained the mercy and generosity of God was the Jewish religion, which had been turbocharged by the arrival of Jesus PBUH and his followers gospels which explained the Jewish religion to non-Jews for the first time. Up to then religion had consisted of sacrificing living creatures including humans to imaginary forces tied to inanimate objects or human emotions or the seasons or man-made idols.

    Try it, catch an animal tomorrow and fling its guts out in a random fashion, chew a few laurel berries and see what you can find. ‘Do not uncork the wine bottle before you reach home’ said the Delphic oracles. When I was a teenager I regularly used to read my horoscope in the daily rag, because I was almost completely uneducated in religion, except for my faith in God and the extrapolations of the Jewish religion contained in the Christian Bible.

    Or go and join a group of young men kept in solitary confinement in a Buddhist monastery or ancient Greek Demeter sect, dancing duelling drinking dying or worse, a Jesuit seminary. The idea of separating them from family and preventing them from learning the tools of family, by being brought up in one, was to create a specialist religion, to which others could venally offer the passing offering. i.e. not a participating religion. The Christian religion started as a religion centred on justice and equality but gradually became a continuation of that non-participating non-understanding ancient sect system.

    All religions gravitate towards the trivial, the ritual at second-hand, the lowest level of conformity to remain within the rules of the religion. At the moment in Islam there is a new scourge, some Salafists, but not all, who blindly follow the dictats of their rulers who in turn blindly follow the dictats of the enemies of Islam, without exercising their conscious mind/ shahadah or conscience. Shahadah means in this context what you have witnessed or understood. For example if you had run over someone and had to come to terms with what that means.
    These salafists look at the rules, but do not concern themselves with the justice of the situation.

    By the time that Jesus PBUH arrived, Judaism had become overrun by on the one hand polytheism meaning a loss of any contact with God and instead relying on ritual and superstition, and on the other hand the Pharisees who relied on the rules , but did not concern themselves with Justice. Jesus pbuh was calling them to the justice of Islam and they rejected him. because they rejected him the whole bangcaboodlebox of Islam was removed from Judaism. The 100% believing prophets of Islam of his time such as John the Baptist and Zachariah, and also Mary, Jesus’ mother peace be upon all of them were then succeeded after 500 years by the last prophet Muhammad, may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him.

    Why then, at the behest of and the payroll of modernday revisionist Zionist gangsters who have robbed the economies of the world to promote that old religion of Judaism, with its Alawi style magic rituals and Pharisee style injustice. Why should I put up with the smokes and mirrors of modern economic theory and the firmly keeping of the trap zipped at all times? Why should I put up with the Pharisee Salafist agenda which is to trivialise and ritualise the deep heart of Islam, and to persecute anybody who runs their life through conscience and love instead of their mean dogmas, rules and vindictiveness against all but their own sect?

    The answer is I’m not going to put up with it and I’m not going to put up with dumping the blame on Islamophobia, racism against Islam when that takes the heat off the agencies that are doing the damage in this world, viz the lies of economics, the lies of the media against Islam and political games of the Salafists who think that if you pretend that Islam is a harsh uncaring religion then they will achieve drops of power from their enemies. God has said that if the Zionists gain power then they will never give the Muslims a portion of it, even as much as a datestone. So all this political Phariseeing by the Salafists is a complete and total waste of time.

  66. Haliburton.

    You are a Cannibal. Sockpuppets eating socks is cannibalism.

  67. Salmonella

  68. ………… I’m not going to put up with it and I’m not going to put up with dumping the blame on Islamophobia, racism against Islam when that takes the heat off the agencies that are doing the damage in this world, ……..

    So you want to use the hatred that is directed at Muslims, for the benefit of thwarting the Salafists (ancestralists) and reactionary sects within Islam. This notion falls strangely in line with the intentions of those whom are promoting hate towards Muslims with a view to expanding their sphere of influence to pocket a few billions in the process of stealing the resources of the Muslims that happen to be sitting on the riches that these despicable operatives are coveting.

    The fact that few ill educated and illiterate followers of some sell out “religious/community leaders” ought to be educated, and not humiliated/beat up/maimed/murdered is not an appealing prospect for anyone in a hurry to reform these poor followers.

    It ought to be noted that force/violence is the ultimate expression of helplessness, and is not taken account of and is absent from the lines of thought, that have yielded such an inhuman solution for a simple lack of spiritual and analytical growth of some as yet undeveloped individuals whom happen to be Muslims. Simply put the reactionary Salaphists are busy killing Muslims, because they believe their victims have brought Islam to disrepute, then the reformists likes of yourself are busy letting the others (none Muslims) at large do the dirty work by bearing down on the Muslims, because these are not good Muslims. The poor Muslims are caught in the middle and getting killed for differing reasons does not matter, because so long as they become good Muslims is the paramount goal.

    Islam promotes critical thinking and constructive criticism, and makes it duty of every Muslim to adhere to such a conduct, but this does not mean; Islam sanctions denouncement and harm wished upon the next pilgrim along because in your estimation he/she is a “bad” Muslim.

    Hatred of Islam is an accepted and tolerated facet of the current political classes, hence the lack of any actions to combat this insidious and vile construct. This in turn yields; “die Arabs die” page set up in the Face Book by a zionist celebrating the deaths of victims of a bus crash in Jordan. The vile page getting carried on the Face Book with no let or shame. The hatred of Islam unchecked yields rashers of bacon placed upon the corpse of Muslim woman, resting in a hospital morgue. Hatred of Islam tolerated paves the way for a more cruel society that cares very little for human values and instead promotes greater violence.

    Denying hatred of Muslims exists, with a view to forcing the Muslims see their errors and shortcomings, is as good as promoting hatred of Muslims. This is not a healthy line of thought, because some illiterate individual who knows no better is telling; “you are one of us” somehow does not mean that this individual ought to be persecuted to give up this line of thought. He/she ought to be educated to understand one of us means the human family, regardless of minor differences in appearance, or customs.

    Critical thinking ought not be mistaken with wholesale denouncement and malice directed at those deemed less observant Muslims. Combating hatred of Muslims ought to be the paramount goal, for Muslims as well as none Muslims. Divisions of our society based on such a criteria only undermines the general human values that are scarcely observed as it is, with the resultant mass slaughter of many innocent lives in the futile wars fought by the warlords who are promoting such vile methods of divide and rule. We need less destruction and more construction.

  69. I strongly would recommend the work of Kenan Malik. This includes his book, ‘Strange Fruit: Why Both Sides Are Wrong in the Race Debate’.

    http://www.kenanmalik.com/

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenan_Malik#Strange_Fruit

  70. November

    You have very pointedly asked Guano questions with a tone that that implies a demand for an answer. I ask you, “What kind of authority do you bestow upon yourself? On what grounds do you give yourself this power?” Please explain how you acquired the right to use this interrogation technique on other commentators.

    As for what the word “apke” means and its origins, Guano is not your personal ever-ready encyclopedia cum dictionary – try googling it for yourself like the rest of us.

    Something that we can’t google is what your religion and ethnic background is. I have declared mine in various comments and Guano has also revealed his. May I ask you, pointedly – “What are your religious beliefs and ethnic background?” It might help us in choosing and framing specific questions that we can put to you to progress this discussion.

    I don’t speak on behalf of Guano but I will offer this possible explanation of Guano’s statement regarding holding Muslims to a higher standard than non-Muslims. When you belong to a family, you have higher expectations of your family members than you do for non-family members. What others do is their problem, but what your own family members do affects you too and sometimes causes you problems like damaging your reputation (guilt by association). You also have ambitions for your own family that might not be realised if you hold them to the low standards of others. It’s a common attitude among members of a group to hold other members to higher standards than non-members. Unfortunately, these expectations of higher standards are often motivated by notions of superiority. I thought that was quite obvious.

    Guano said – “Why is it so unthinkable for you as well that if non-Muslims project their fears onto the Muslims and become racist in their attitudes that Muslims do not do the same?”

    November replied – “This statement is so wrong in so many levels that is unbelievable. Further, this shows you have no understanding of the realities that the “Muslim” (foreigners, immigrants, anyone with a slight colour variation) community is facing, in the current hostile climate that has been brought on by the deliberate fanning of the flames of hatred by successive governments in UK.”

    Wrong on so many levels? Can you explain each of these levels or was that just the usual sort of rhetorical bluster that is supposed to pass as intelligent debate these days? Guano’s statement is a simple clear one that merely states that Muslims and their various associated ethnic groupings experience the same problematic attitudes within as every other social group. You then go off on a tangent by accusing him of having no understanding of [an amorphous mangling of social problems]. Guano understands what these problems are and he is explaining what response he prefers from brother Muslims. However, he is also explaining what frustrations he is experiencing in his dealings with individuals and self-interested sub-groups.

    Racism

    Unfortunately, this word is losing value everyday with the loss of meaning on every misuse. It’s formal and legal meaning is being ever expanded under pressure from activists, smug first year uni students, lawyers, politicians and the media. Apparently, being anti-Islam (like me) is being racist. It’s all quite bizarre when you come to realise that there is no such thing as “race” let alone a belief system being an instance of one kind.

    Jemand’s Law – “As soon as you wrongly accuse someone of racism, you lose the debate!”

    . . . .
    No such thing as “race” -
    http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

    Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all anti-Islamics are “racists” -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

    Muslim “racists” -
    http://www.asianimage.co.uk/columnists/9511814.Racism_within_the_Muslim_community/

    Some Muslims discussing “racism” -
    http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/134314985-there-racism-among-muslims.html

    Surely Arabs can’t be “racist” - 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world

    Only white people are “racists” -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Asia

    Primer -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

  71. Suhayl and Jemand.
    Thanks for shedding your light into this discussion. I just don’t see why entering into what I see as personal transactions such as praying at a particular mosque or marrying into a particular community, or working at a particular factory, gets translated by my Muslim brothers into – I have signed a contract which puts me under their control for the rest of my life. Weird or what?

    I like religion unlike others here and I’m not going to throw out the baby of religion with the bath water of ethnic group suspicion. Surely they have to learn that Islam is not allowed to put pressure on the individual of a different ethnic group just because of what his countrymen did in a different century, or now? That becomes an additional -phobia to the Islamophobia I already face as a bearded Muslim. The weird part is that they think they are so much better Muslims because they have set up a set of in-house mechanisms that persecute me because of my race.

    November. I already face the unwanted attentions of the security services because of my religion. It begins to look as though the non-English Muslims are getting some back-handers from them for giving us a hard time. Like the ad last year where two actors were wearing the mask of eachothers’ face. Cameron sends guns to help the Muslims against Assad, while UK Muslims spy on and manipulate their brothers for being of a different race.

    Slime-bags, the lot of them.

  72. Maybe the reality behind what is called Islamophobia is that UK people from the Protestant tradition can detect this habit of the Muslims of forcing their brothers and sisters to come totally under their control and they don’t like it.

    It isn’t Islamphobia at all – it’s solid British common sense. We got rid of papistry for good in 1640 and we don’t intend to return to it under the label of my lovely religion of Islam. The mad mullahs just don’t get it, but we do. They don’t like it up ‘em when we blow the lid on their nasty political schemes.

    God help us when Scotland divides from the UK and gives everybody another reason for stabbing their fellow humans for stabbing eachother from behind.

  73. Jemand – Evolutionary Religion 101

    Nothing is more insufferable than a proselytising atheist, these suffering from intellectual myopia go on pontificating bollocks; in a bizarre reverse Jehovah Witness fashion banging on about atheism.

    As for opening your essay by taking the side of Guano, are you some kind of an attorney for him? Did he ask you come to his defence and aid?

    As for what the word “apke” means and its origins, Guano is not your personal ever-ready encyclopedia cum dictionary – try googling it for yourself like the rest of us.

    What the fuck are you on about? Are you Guano, what the fuck has it to do with you, what has been debated with Guano? When you are addressed then you can start writing the oodles of unconscious drivel you have written.

    Finally I have no time to waste to engage in debate with those whom have nothing to learn and are too busy teaching the world. End of communication.

  74. Start of communication ..

    Obviously I hit the nerve of an emotionally retarded, hysterical anti-racist. November, go out and live life a little before you presume to lecture grown ups. I won’t bother instructing you on the rules and non-rules of posting here – you’ll need to learn that yourself.

    Good night, angry little boy.

    Over and out.

  75. Yes, it’s all very complex, isn’t it?

    I’d like to see domestic movements based on economics re-emerge – I don’t mean ‘class war’ or whatever – just ‘stop the pillaging’, have decent services, stop subsidising the City of London, take a leaf from Iceland’s, rather than Ireland’s, book and so on.

    Now, today, identity politics simply seems largely to keep people in their little boxes wearing their nativist costumes on both the inside and the outside, cuts them off from other working/unemployed people (by which I mean, the vast majority of the population) and ultimately systemically disempowers them. I actually argued (a couple of years ago, on a platform with Harpreet Singh Kohli at a festival in Edinburgh) that this whole idea of/never-ending quest for (a voyage into a world of ever-decreasing circles) for/reality of ‘identity’ is itself manufactured. I think it’s reductive. We’ve seen the impact of this over the past 30+ years in general terms of being fissiparous and also in terms of the essentialisation and fossilisation of thought and of modes of activism and of art. He didn’t agree. And there you have it.

  76. Leotards do not change their spots even when worn by George Galloway. Cameron’s Westminster Wollywood spin false moustache and false boobs as Dame Twankey defender of private grief and press freedom is a total pantomime. The name of the pantomime is Ali Baba and the 40 thieves, the mad mullahs who disgrace the name of Islam by joining this abomination of spying on people in the privacy of their homes.

    You do not measure success in the number of people deceived, but in the ever vaster majority who are not deceived. You can even carry on rendition if you display the right level of public contrition. More and more elaborate pranks are required to restore the suspicious public to confidence again.
    Pull the other one – its got calls to prayer loudspeakers on it.
    Political minds are all the same – bent as hairspins.

  77. Maybe the reality behind what is called Islamophobia is that UK people from the Protestant tradition can detect this habit of the Muslims of forcing their brothers and sisters to come totally under their control and they don’t like it.

    You have not answered any of the questions put to you, and further, you have pointedly refused to accept the prevalence of hatred of Muslims, despite the fact that you have been a victim of such a hatred yourself, as per your own admission.

    I already face the unwanted attentions of the security services because of my religion. It begins to look as though the non-English Muslims are getting some back-handers from them for giving us a hard time.

    The more you have written the more a complete portrayal of a vicious little racist has been in progress. On one hand you call the other Muslims “brothers” on the other you then go on about the nasty bunch of bastards these “brothers” are to a man of them. Fact that “ non-English Muslims” are giving you a hard time for a piece of silver is firmly stock in your mind, yet you seem to fail to see the point that the SIS(which one of the 768) are the ones that are engaged in attending to you although their attentions are not welcome.

    Strange that you cannot see the woods for the trees mate. What is hatred of Islam and why Muslims are under such an enormous amounts of suspicions? Nope there is no hatred of Islam, just the Asian bastards shopping/giving a hard time the other Muslims/being racist to “English” is the trouble!!!!

    On one hand the times of the prayers are bothering you, on the other because you have been married/divorced into/from the Muslim community you feel that they own you, then there is your gripe about getting racially abused by the said “brothers”. Then there is the Muslims who are doing the killing in Syria, with the guns supplied by Cameron (BTW which authoritative source do you have that these mercenaries doing the killings in Syria are in fact good practising Muslims? Ever heard that Saudi jails are getting emptied from criminals sentenced for beheading as these are sent out to Syria?) However, in justification of your untenable position you then invoke the “nationalist” sentiments;

    It isn’t Islamphobia at all – it’s solid British common sense. We got rid of papistry for good in 1640 and we don’t intend to return to it under the label of my lovely religion of Islam. The mad mullahs just don’t get it, but we do. They don’t like it up ‘em when we blow the lid on their nasty political schemes.

    All the while spewing more sectarian hatred targeting the Catholics and the Shia Muslims to boot too. Reading your contribution there is a theme of an equal opportunity sectarian racist, that equally hates; Shia, Catholics, Salaphists, Asian Muslims, ……

    Let us face it, you really have a very poor understanding of Islam don’t you? As yet you have not understood that religion and politics are in fact intertwined, and those intent on separating the church from the government are in fact playing a nasty dishonest shell game.

    Islam is a way of life, it is a way of thinking, it is a way of conduct, it is a way of reforming/shaping the society, it promotes; social justice, equality (not the perverse sex equality, there far too many areas that pudenda are irrelevant), and above all humanity.

    Whilst you have been PBUHing away when you debate with others, but the pointed questions that have been put to you by me, have remained and are going unanswered. Your pointed refusal of accepting the current waves of hatred Against Muslims/immigrants/Coloureds, and Islam as well as you turning the issue on its head, and blaming the Muslims for being the racists bastards that they are. Has been supported by Sidekick General, and an Atheist, does this not mean anything to you?

    Do you accept that hatred towards Muslim and Hatred of Islam exist in UK and the West in general and it ought to be combated, or do you want to join the lines of the haters by denying its existence, and or blaming the victims of this hatred?

    This fact is a separate issue from your petty little gripes about the prayer times, and or some ill educated individual trying to patronise you by telling you; “you are on of us”, or some clever Asian trying to get more out of you by playing the Muslim brother card nothing unusual there; Freemasons shaft each other too mate (brothers).

    Finally it is not ichtelaf (اختلاف) but ikhtela’f divergence/schism, just as a throw away.

  78. I realise that to some extent I am being tangential, but that is my wont, I think everyone knows my position on hate and so on and maybe let’s just relax a bit and try to chat with one another – so let me share a little vignette with you all.

    A few years ago, I attended an event at which, to showcase the diverse talent in the city concerned, among other acts, there was a young British man of African origin doing a breakdance, to much applause by the local authority, etc. officials present. He was very good.

    During the meal afterwards, I got chatting with him. He told me,

    “Actually, you know, I’m a ballet dancer”.

    I asked,

    “So, why weren’t you doing a ballet dance then?”

    He shrugged and looked down.

    Of course, we both knew perfectly well why he wasn’t doing a ballet dance.

  79. No vember – no comment

  80. A breath of fresh air Suhayl Suhadi, always appreciate your divining for the root of issues. Guano’s god references, this pbuh rubbish, it all reads like something from Cromwell’s era of fanatical Protestantism, I’ve had this impression since long before Guano actually stated some parallel there, where the h in he and his is capitalised when referring to this imaginary super-being common to all these religious zealot types. Barking the lot of you. You think 17thC religious intolerance in England is a good and admirable thing, with its sweeping paranoia, fantastical popish plots found behind every misfortune; persecution then as now, a solution, and think that’s good-old fashioned British common-sense, I think it no such thing, it’s a demented abandonment of all common-sense.

    “Cameron sends guns to help the Muslims against Assad” It’s perfectly true and his been well known to have being going on for most of the last year, Bbc disinformation notwithstanding. I agree too about slime-bags, but you yourself Guano have made repeated bloodcurdling denunciations of President Assad, and called for his demise, in effect for the success of these ‘slime-bags’ who are of course doing the work of those other slime-bags, the Israelies/Zionists (I purposefully make no distinction there.) and their disloyal traitorous (to their morally collapsed hosts) diaspora worming their poisonous religious supremacist viewpoints into every sphere of those host’s establishment and masses.

    Your god isn’t even dead, as It never has existed in the first place. Don’t mistake inculcated religious shite for any part of your cultural identity, that exists independently.

  81. Nymphocrim

    Thanks you made me laugh after November’s horrible slanders.
    As November knows full well, I have been responding to some injustices done to me with the aid of spying and gossiping, not by all the Muslims as he twists my words, but by a very small group who are highly respected in the Muslim community, well protected socially and financially, and who should know better than to abuse their positions to pick on others. The Qur’an permits someone to use harsh words to redress the balance of harsh treatment, up to the same level but not beyond. Also it was said by our prophet SAW that we should help those who hurt us. How? By preventing them from doing the same again.

    Not sure what kicks November gets out of bending my words to include all of the Muslims. If there was any collateral damage from my attack, to any other Muslim or non-Muslim who took offence at what I said, then I apologise. Full page spread for full page spread as Cameron said. How do you make a complaint against powerful people who think they are immune from criticism within the walls of their little community? Privately first, and then with others who are fair-minded people, who I take Craig’s blog to be. That’s the instructions in the Gospels in the Gospels and in the Qur’an as well. Allah akbar, justice is done.

  82. Yes, it’s all very complex, isn’t it?

    Best to avoid phrase “complex” , as it normally means either a cup out and or an attempt to bamboozle the pilgrims and introduce some kind of fatalistic resignation by portraying the problem as intractable, with little or no solution to address it.

    identity politics simply seems largely to keep people in their little boxes wearing their nativist costumes on both the inside and the outside,

    The neo liberal construct of affording “identity” to various “groupings” are with a view to divide and rule, under a modern/post modern and more acceptable pretext. The fact that as yet still “race” and the implication thereof are prevalent, stem from the ease of operations for various scoundrels in the way of achieving their aims on principles of divide and rule. The point that working men and women are en mass getting exploited by the same superclass under differing pretexts somehow never dawns on the these workers whom invariably are the ones whom do the dirty work and get paid pittance for their efforts and have many grievances that go unaddressed, yet these never can see or discern the wider picture and are caught up in a local node that compels these to vent out their frustration on their own kind albeit in a different guise/appearance/sub group.

    Let us clarify that humanity does not have enough genetic differences to yield differing races, and this is a scientific and irrefutable fact. Further the race construct has been a tool to profit from the exploitation of a target underclass by characterisation of this target class as lesser human/subhuman. The introduction of lesser human concept plays on two facets: firstly appeals to the ego of the greater society engaged in such a reprehensible conduct, as being superior entities, despite their pitiful existence. Secondly the said lesser human class then can be treated as ghastly as possible without invoking any sense of guilt or remorse.

    The “race” construct maintains the sensibilities of the societies engaged in such a duplicitous conduct, yet affords the said society the use of slaves/forced labour/maintenance of underclass without any moral difficulties or qualms. However, the hatred that is directed at the subclass itself generates an opposite reaction within the subclass that is translates to no less than hatred of the greater society/ sub superclass. This two way hatred is an ideal vehicle for maintenance of the “order” through separation of the groups under exploitation (divide and rule).

    The price that is paid by the society engaged in such a reductive regimen is many folds chief among these the stagnant and almost static evolutionary processes that are needed to bring about a greater harmony and better quality of life. Then there is the general financial impoverishment, because the greedy superclass can not satiate their greed, and are forever seeking ways of “greater returns” on their investments (ie rip off the under classes even more). In addition to the said society becoming more cruel and to emphasise less on their own humanity. A truly ghastly outcome.

    Therefore fighting the “race” construct ought to be a paramount goal for all working men and women whose interest are in remaining united and aware of the dividers’ techniques in separating the herd and targeting the lesser capable prey class (no this is not survival of the fittest, because in that case most of the superclass could not survive for more than few days without their support brigades).

    In the event of such an outcome, the subclass disappearing and a unified working class emerging yield change;the aim being reducing the hold of the superclass, through challenging its monetary monopoly would be probably the first emergent signs of such development. Followed by new arrangements for arbitration and dispute resolution without referral to the formal constructs set in place by the superclass. Fact is these changes will not be smooth for change itself will be evident as challenging the order and the superclass, and the implications thereof.

    However the road to such a state of existence starts by accepting our differences and celebrating these differences, further understanding that there are many ways of attaining truth, and any attempts in imposition of a dogmatic singular doctrine itself ought to be challenged. As in any digital solutions there are many paths for attaining the same outcome. The universal one size fits all Henry Ford reductionism does not carry well into the organic lives. Sadly this facet itself is never challenged, and instead many people challenge each others methods of attaining truth. The divide and rule of the superclass targeting yet more areas yields such absurdities.

    Human are organic entities with warts and all, however their core programming of striving for “better/perfect/excellence” is a facet that can be utilised for the worse instead of better outcomes. This is a danger that is often going noticed among the working men and women, which is entirely based on their miseducation, misinformed minds.

  83. I agree about the divide-and-rule dynamic and much else. I used the word, “complex”, not to “bamboozle” or as a cop-out, but simply as a statement of fact. I also wanted to try to diffuse some of the ferocity of the argumentation, slow things down a bit, so people could ‘hear themselves think’ (as it were).

    The Henry Ford production-line approach does not work in societal terms, but nor does the constant emphasising of difference – I think we’ve probably ‘celebrated difference’ (i.e. placed difference centre-stage, like a statue or an icon, instead of as just one part of the fabric) quite sufficiently and mayeb we need to consdier ‘subverting difference’ a bit more. There has to be some middle ground in society, where things are in context, and are not viewed or parctised as absolutisms of one sort or another, but as fluid forms that flow inot one another. The African- British ballet dancer was a prime example of a form that should’ve been able to be fluid, but presssure of expectations had a limiting effect. I’ve seen this dynamic countless times in the arts – sadly, it is normative in that sector – the sciences are (by comparison) far more ‘fluid’ – though of course every societal system, to some extent, will replicate existing stratifications within the society.

    These issues are very complex, with multiple ‘rights’ competing with one another, various patriarchies contending for power positions within the matrix and a variety of forms of entrenched thinking, entitlements, chauvinisms, resentments, old and new racisms, old and new anti-racisms and so on, all swirling around. There is a sort of hysteria that erupts as soon as these subjects are discussed and some in society take advantage of that deliberately to foment discord. There is no question that views nowadays are hugely polarised and that is unhelpful in the context of seeking a way forward.

  84. To get a bit less woolly, though, for just a moment, as a small example, I think that we, here in the UK, all should have the same rights. I do not think that the law, in statute or in practice, should be modulated to accommodate what specific patriarchies, or dominant groupings within a self-defined cohort, for instance, might regard as ‘traditional’ customs (but which often are nothing of the sort and rather are instruments of convenience to re-inforce their own specific hegemonic power within those communities).

    Another example is that I do not think that science should be viewed on the same ontological plane as faith-based systems. There are many paths to metaphysical truth, and there are many gloriously-varied metaphysical truths, but these must not be confused with the scientific method (and yes, I know that science has been abused by everyone and that the subject-object relationship has been fraught with colonial power dynamics, etc.). But I dot not believe that those facts undermine the basis of science. To conflate religion with science is to debase both and is a fundametal misunderstanding of the nature of both.

  85. November

    Sadly, as hard as I try I cannot make any sense of your discussion with Suhayl. It looks like a communist manifesto for north Korea.
    Also by the time you have cut up my arguments and pasted your own ngobs of total horse-shite in, I can’t recognise anything I have said in your re-gurgitated form. You have just taken individual words and minced whatever meaning I originally gave them into completely different form. Perhaps that is art, because it definitely isn’t logical discussion. And if want art, Suhayl’s your man.

  86. It looks like a communist manifesto for north Korea. Also by the time you have cut up my arguments and pasted your own ngobs of total horse-shite in, I can’t recognise anything I have said in your re-gurgitated form.

    “Communist manifesto” a clear Pavlovian reaction to “workers” (referred to in an earlier contribution). Lacking any kind of introspection on goes the charade. Evidently because:

    ….. complaint against powerful people who think they are immune from criticism within the walls of their little community?

    Hence the denial of existence of hatred against Muslims. Ignoring the fact that Islam promotes constructive criticism, which is widely different to “complain” or promotion of hatred towards the individuals concerned albeit Muslim or non-Muslim.

    The next claim that your words are twisted, in the “regurgitation” which presumably means the text pasted from the original arguments forwarded by you. Yet again clear indication of not taking responsibility for ones own actions/words/thoughts. The lack of humility in addition to taking up hostile positions will only create even more enemies within the Muslim community for you, seeing as you have not understood the basic principles of humility, tolerance and respect that Islam teaches.

  87. probably ‘celebrated difference’ (i.e. placed difference centre-stage, like a statue or an icon, instead of as just one part of the fabric)

    celebrating our differences, has been misconstructed as celebrating the differences, indeed emphasis on differences is a divisive instrument to further drive apart the groups existing within a fractured society. However, accepting the fact that we are different from one another, then nullifies the need to bring about a hegemonic standard issue citizenship.

    The sad story of the black ballet dancer, is indeed the epitome of the symbiosis of the racists and their victims engaged in an uneasy truce. That is criminality no less, indeed we must all have equal rights, how about Muslims getting afforded the same protection that is afforded the Jews, or Blacks getting the same protection that is afforded the Jews? Equal rights ought not mean forcing the target groups into assimilation (which normally is never attained, and serves only to further drive the target group away/isolate from the larger and dominant group).

    Must dash, lots of tasks and not enough time in the day.

  88. GNome

    Why not just change the time-zone on your watch?
    I suppose you love spying and being spied on. If you don’t like something just stuck your head on upside-down.
    ‘Oh I prefer it that way. At least you know where you stand’. Priceless.

    Talking of which, how did we get Black Africans in a Baptist Church near here worshipping a painting of a white, long-curly-haired Jesus? Was that just because the white congregation had disappeared but nobody dared take it down? Or did these people , like you, just say:

    ‘Oh we prefer it that way, it’s part of our religion to submit to the opposite of natural justice and commonsense. Your intolerance of colonial symbols just shows how little you understand. It might cause offence to take it down’ Offence to whom? God? Jesus? The Devil? David Cameron?

    Now I wish I’d never touched the neighbour’s garden gnomes.

  89. “Equal rights ought not mean forcing the target groups into assimilation” November.

    That would be a novel interpretation of the term “equal rights”. The French-Algerian (etc.) experience would suggest to us that the kind of assimilation to which you may be referring does not work either.

    “Target groups” – itself an interesting turn of phrase (I realise that you are using it in a critical manner).

    I agree with your comments about the black ballet dancer. Thanks.

    Equal rights mean that we are equal before the law. So, firstly, no kidnapping, detention without trial, deportation at the behest of a foreign power without evidence being considered and subjected to cross-examination by both adversarial parties in open court, etc. being applied overwhelmingly to one specific group (I would suggest, to NO groups or individuals at all would be better, unless we want a police state).

    Secondly, also that cultural supposed ‘norms’ (whether they are or are not norms in the legal context ought to be irrelevant; indeed, the concept of such ‘norms’ for ontologically hermetically-sealed groups arguably is itself oppressive and discriminatory to everyone except possibly powerful and often reactionary lobbies within those groups) not render relative immunity or amelioration of prosecution, conviction and sentencing in relation to criminal activity.

  90. I worked in the Midlands where swathes of cities have been Muslimified. How did this happen? Certainly the indigenous UK citizens never asked for it. It was PUSHED onto them. By whom?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QoJGvEVogI

    Meanwhile the other side of the injustice is that Muslims are blamed for terror not of their doing

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUbTe50UUgM

    A lie which justifies the West invading Muslim countries ostensibly to root out ‘terrorism’ but really a resource-grab. Helmand province, best opium growing real estate on the planet, silenced by the Taliban, now more productive than ever bringing misery to the west with heroin importation

    etc

  91. Viewed from another perspective, the process of tribalisation of communities in Britain might be viewed as a form of branding – and it is linked, in my view, with the massive expansion, both externally and internally, structurally, culturally, psychologically, of commercial branding activity that has occured since the mid-1980s.

    Perhaps it is no accident that these tendencies seem to have developed in parallel. Certainly, both corporate and discorporate entities seem to see no threat to their hegemony from identity politics. Quite the opposite, in actively promoting such ‘human branding’ activity, as both an inherent ‘virtue’ and as an effective deep marketing strategy, they are able simultaneously to claim the morla high-ground and to expand their markets.

    And so, while many of these entities would fight to the last plundered penny to keep trade unions out of their workplaces, they are perfectly happy for the coutoure of religious branding to be on display and to be an inherent part of their body politic.

    In every fibre of his being (to paraphrase from a previous industrial-scale criminal facilitator), David Cameron, for example, is a perfect product of that ‘industrial process’.

  92. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    22 Mar, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    Indented/quoted

    test

    Indented/quoted

  93. Rights granted for individuals through the laws in statute are themselves the result of the efforts/work of various lobby groups/norms/commercial pressures. Hence your first point although admirable/commendable falls somewhat short in practice. Hence the imprisonment of Baber Ahmed, along with many others in UK, whom have simply been caught up in the net of the SIS that in turn seem to operate in an extra judicial manner with impunity and further have the backing of the judicial constructs too.

    Therefore the expectation of equal rights despite its fanfare of support really does not exist in the sense of the word that if anyone Muslim, these days, and those of Irish descent in the past happen to be in the wrong place and caught by the “right” officer could hardly have any kind of rights let alone for these rights to be of equal kind.

    This latter part is never subject to any debate or discussion because the wider and dominant groups feel secure enough to dismiss any probabilities of the members of their group to be caught up in such a scenario. Alas the practice proves otherwise, where one individual’s rights can be discounted, then it sets a precedence for the others to have their “rights” violated too.

    Further for equal rights to be granted by a hostile superclass then there must exist a quid pro quo that usually entails some measure of acquiescence towards the imperatives set by the said superclass. Therefore it obtains not a “novel idea” but a pragmatic understanding of the sub-processes of getting afforded equal rights.

    However you then rightly point out:

    whether they are or are not norms in the legal context ought to be irrelevant; indeed, the concept of such ‘norms’ for ontologically hermetically-sealed groups arguably is itself oppressive and discriminatory to everyone except possibly powerful and often reactionary lobbies within those groups

    Clearly acknowledging the existence of the referenced sub-processes. This dichotomy of wishing to live in a society of laws and sanity, and to exist within the realms of; chaos, bigotry, and arbitrary arrests (ultimately it is the decision of an SIS operative, as in the case of Cressida Dick and the life/death of de Menezez) and imprisonment based upon the judgements of the same, that is then recommended to the Judiciary whom follow suit and act on the advice of these operatives.

    However to disentangle from the legalities of the immoral conduct of the operatives whom are supported by the dominant group at the expense of the Target Groups, it serves the argument well to point out that without acceptance of the simple fact that we all are different individuals with differing imperatives and traditions, there always shall remain the danger that those deemed outsiders will always remain insecure and in danger of being picked on and bullied.

    Further, extending the line of argument, to the international arena, it should be understood that whilst on this board and elsewhere there is an innate hostility towards religions (other than Judaism) that is the “norm” and the the derision of those religious followers a pastime. Yet missing in the melee is the importance of religion in aiding and organising societies that as yet have not swung full tilt into the Western Consumerism, and or are lacking the basics of life as it is taken for granted in the West.

    To clarify the above, given the paucity of resources in the Afghan/Pakistani/Somali villages/towns/society that even access to clean water is not a given, added the lack of transport infrastructure, or access to medicine without religion and the help of the almighty to enable those caught up in the violence perpetrated upon these from the skies and the ground the pilgrims would have long ceased to exist. Hence the all out frontal assault on religion, this last barrier to the success of the hegemony of those bent on world domination no less.

    Therefore in the current total war that is being waged on Muslims, it is an inevitable consequences of the war that Islam itself will come under attack, as it has been the case, albeit in a tongue in cheek fashion. However the hatred against Muslims is a necessary component of this war that is being cultivated in a broadly overt and aggressive manner by the supine “Media”.

    Therefore to view:

    process of tribalisation of communities in Britain might be viewed as a form of branding – and it is linked, in my view, with the massive expansion, both externally and internally, structurally, culturally, psychologically, of commercial branding activity that has occured since the mid-1980s.

    The commercial brands seek to find their target demographies, and the degrees of their success may induce the growth of the targeted demographies. Alas no commercial operation can afford to create its own demography. The tribes as you put it can only come from the assiduous work carried out on the pre existing fissures and faults to further amplify these with a view to benefit from these divisions. This would need massive resources and a data processing that only governments can afford.

    The fact that a so called Muslim on this board is all too readily dismissing the hatred towards Muslims, and then engages in explaining the hatred towards these as the compliant against certain leaders, is clearly a case for detailed study; how did we get to hate Muslims so rapidly?

  94. “The tribes as you put it can only come from the assiduous work carried out on the pre existing fissures and faults to further amplify these with a view to benefit from these divisions. This would need massive resources and a data processing that only governments can afford.” November, 22nd March, 9:07pm

    (btw, ‘November’ is a slightly confusing handle, if I humbly may point out! What will happen when it actually is November? Why not just call yourself, ‘Brumaire’, or Frimaire” instead? :) )

    Yes, I agree.

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