Drawing Red Lines on Shifting Sands

by craig on April 27, 2013 9:25 am in Uncategorized

In general I refrain from commenting on Syria, because the politics of that country are hugely complex and I simply do not know enough about it. If in the media in general people refrained from commenting on things they know they do not clearly understand, life would be easier for readers – except, of course, that most columnists don’t understand that they don’t understand.

The West is already heavily involved in Syria, giving large amounts of cash, and channelling weapons through the vicious despotisms of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain, to opposition forces, some of which are Islamic jihadist, some representing different tribal or religious power factions.

This makes life very confusing – the kidnappers and killers of UN Peacekeepers on the Golan Heights are some of William Hague’s “Good guys”, which is why those stories are so quickly glossed over. The truth is, of course, that the whole fallacy of the Blair interventionist model is that there are “good guys” in these situations who ought to be put in power by our military force, our money and the blood of our soldiers. As I explain at length in The Catholic Orangemen of Togo, this “good guy” fallacy led to the British Army installing the most corrupt government on earth in Sierra Leone, and we have gone on to do precisely the same thing, installing incredibly corrupt and bad governments, in Kabul and Baghdad. Having, of course, bombed the infrastructure of Iraq back to the Middle Ages first, A great deal of fog still shrouds Libya, but I expect we will soon see clearly exactly the same thing there.

Doubtless if western intervention becomes more direct in Syria, we will there again achieve regime change and the brilliant achievement of installing a government even more corrupt than the Assad regime. Of course the political proponents of the policy don’t really care about good governance or corruption, or death in war or devastation of infrastructure. They want governments which are allied with them. The wars themselves serve the interests of the politicians’ paymasters in the arms industry, mercenary companies and logistics providers like Halliburton. The subsequent corrupt governments are supposed to be friendly to western commercial and financial interests.

The motives and mechanics of the interventionists are clear. We have seen it all before. But their own militaries have had enough of being embroiled in endless conflicts, and there are no quick win solutions in ultra complex Syria. The Israelis have been signalling very, very hard to the US that the Assad family are OK by them and the last thing that Israel wants is a genuine democracy in Syria, which might want the Golan Heights back.

Obama, Cameron et al have thus been reduced to financial and vicarious weapon supply to the anti-Assad forces, and limited numbers of special forces assisting with sabotage operations to no great purpose. Meantime, hundreds of thousands have been killed in the ongoing civil war.

There is a clue there; civil war. Nobody is attacking us, and here is a hard lesson for politicians. There are wars we should not join in. We should have a role, indeed, in urging peace and trying to deploy all the means of conflict resolution. But it is not for us to fund or arm any side in a civil war. It is not our business and we have no legal right to do so. Work for peace, yes. Fuel war, no.

Within all this, Obama’s foolish decision to make the Assad regime’s deployment of chemical weapons a red line makes matters worse. Of course chemical weapons should not be deployed. But I am not sure whether I would prefer to die with my guts spilling out after red hot metal ripped through my abdomen, or coughing my lungs out after inhaling chemicals. That hundreds of thousands can die one way, but hundreds dying the other way would be a cause of joining in the war, is not inherently logical to me.

I remain, I should say, very sceptical of evidence produced so far that chemical weapons have been deployed. Even if they had been used, given the consequences that might follow, one has to ask by whom. The cui bono would not point to Assad, quite the opposite.

I shall return to avoiding blogging about Syria. If I can’t blog about it because it is too complex and I don’t fully understand it, think how unwise you must be to imagine that bombing it or providing still more weapons will help.

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134 Comments

  1. Thank you craig.

    Habbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!)
    Unblock
    26 Apr, 2013 – 10:32 pm

    Thank you so much to the poster who posted the script to block it. Life is definitely good well at least better without his garbage.
    Please post the script again and maybe Mary might be tempted to come back?

  2. Craig, There is an excellent quotation to illustrate your point:

    “Anyone who knows anything isn’t talking
    And anyone with any sense isn’t talking.
    Therefore:
    The people that are talking to the media,
    By definition, people who don’t know anything,
    And people who don’t have a hell of a lot of sense.”
    Donald Rumsfeld “They Know Nothing”, on media availability en route to Poland, 22 September 2002 in “The Existential Poetry of Donald H. Rumsfeld”, compiled and edited by Hart Seely, Simon and Schuster 2003 p60.

  3. Totally agree. “fuelling war” is exactly what is being proposed (and actually being done but we are not supposed to know that of course).

    Funny interview on R4 yesterday with US commentator trying to reconcile the idea that some of the rebels are linked with ‘Al-Queda’.

  4. Craig wrote: The Israelis have been signalling very, very hard to the US that the Assad family are OK by them [...]

    Are you sure about that?

  5. If Barry Obama was really concerned about chemical weapons he would have made more than a token gesture towards clearing up the residue of Agent Orange in Vietnam, to say nothing of all the white phosphorus and depleted uranium in Iraq, Serbia etc

  6. Obomber talks about a ‘red line’ – he took the words right out of Netanyahu’s mouth (UN General Assembly 27/9/13 posturing on Iran) – couldn’t even be bothered trying to make it look as though he thought of it himself.

  7. “… The Israelis have been signalling very, very hard to the US that the Assad family are OK by them …”

    Have look at this:

    “Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Michael Oren said the fall of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad would be a boon to Israel and the Mideast, even if radical Islamists try to fill the vacuum left by his departure.

    “There’s the possibility that you’ll have Sunni extremist elements who will try to come to the fore,” Oren said yesterday in Washington. “Our opinion is that any situation would be better than the current situation” in which the Syrian regime has a strategic alliance with Iran and the Lebanese Shiite Muslim terrorist group Hezbollah, he said.

    U.S. officials repeatedly have expressed concern about jihadi elements within the Syrian opposition …”

    Source: Bloomberg, 2012-12-12 “Israeli Envoy Sees Radicals Risk Preferable to Assad”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-12/israeli-envoy-sees-radicals-risk-preferable-to-assad.html

    I don’t know much about diplomacy, but I find it an odd way to signal the US that the Assad family are OK by Israel.

  8. “the kidnappers and killers of UN Peacekeepers on the Golan Heights”

    I can`t find any reference to UN people being killed , can
    you provide a link.

  9. Exexpat:

    Your welcome, I’m glad people are getting some use out of it. People can still find the instructions and download link at http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/the-official-tsarnaev-story-makes-no-sense/#comment-404193

    I’ve been too busy to do any more work on it the last few days, but when I get a chance, I will improve it some more and then post some more links to it (I don’t wanna spam up the forum about it every day). I’m also going to investigate a better distribution method, the current copy/paste isn’t very elegant.

  10. “I remain, I should say, very sceptical of evidence produced so far that chemical weapons have been deployed. Even if they had been used, given the consequences that might follow, one has to ask by whom. The cui bono would not point to Assad, quite the opposite”

    One cannot but agree with your sentiments as yesterdays pictures of people foaming at the mouth look/ have nothing to do with a Sarin attack.

    Nowhere in the medical report of the Tokyo underground attack using Sarin was there a mention or pictures of victims foaming at the mouth. That said, increased mucus production is an emergency response of our body.

    http://www.impact-kenniscentrum.nl/doc/kennisbank/1000010491-1.pdf

  11. I reckon that’s a pretty good summary of current Western interference in Syria. Machiavellian calculation is what guides policy and its explanation/MSM reporting to the public. Any and all apparent ‘humanitarian’ concerns are simply part of it when wavering public support needs bolstering.

    Just a couple of points.

    1. Pace Machiavelli, I doubt Western power brokers care a jot about stability in Syria. Better that there is turmoil no matter the humanitarian costs, than that a government which declines to see things the Globalists way should remain in power and free to conduct an effective opposing foreign policy.

    2. Putin’s arrest of 140 people ‘tied to Islamist extremist groups in the Causasus’ in Moscow yesterday may be an indication that a US quid-pro-quo has been reached. Moscow drops Syrian blockage in exchange for a nod-and-wink to crack down in Chechnya and other Central Asian ‘problem’ areas. See Sibel Edmonds. Looks like there may indeed be a connection to the Boston bombing deabacle and further public opinion manipulation over alleged chemical weapons use.

  12. Surely there is sufficient information available to demonstrate that what is going on in Syria is a attempt a “regime change” on behalf of the most reactionary elements of the imperial system?
    The information that Craig summarises- the hypocrisy of those calling for democracy, the appalling record of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, the massive carnage of an invasion of terrorists posing as a civil war- is quite sufficient for people to conclude that the only role our governments should be playing is to assist in bringing about a peaceful resolution to the current nightmare.

    I, too, am profoundly grateful to whoever was responsible for ridding this forum of the scourge of Habbakuk. “His” fatuities and insolence were making this most valuable blog unreadable. He should be permanently banned on the basis that his clear purpose is to prevent the free exercise of speech. I trust that, that staunch friend of the powerless, Mary will replace Habbakuk’s malicious drivel with her valuable commentary on current events.

  13. Michael Stephenson

    27 Apr, 2013 - 1:26 pm

    George Galloway has some interesting things to say about the subject:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdHMlX3PvNw

  14. Bandolero

    Just because Israel wants the US public to think something, doesn’t make it their real position. I should have thought that hardly needs saying.

  15. U.S. believes Syria may have used chemical weapons; experts offer caution; McClatchy; 4/25/13

    Jeffrey Lewis** is one of those:
    A few thoughts on where we are with the allegations of chemical weapons us in Syria.; 4/25/13

    ** Jeffrey Lewis is Director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. Dr. Lewis also founded and maintains the leading blog on nuclear arms control and nonproliferation, ArmsControlWonk.com. [...]

  16. Syria is on the hit list because of zionistan and its aspirations are channelled through the plethora of the PR companies bribing their way into occupation of the other occupied territories; Capitol Hill.

    Fact that Assad has a lot of support among the ordinary Syrians whom have been scuppering the “resistance” (read mercenaries sent in by the various interested bodies) by actively helping the Syrian Armed forces, to weed these foreign elements out.

    Al Sauds trying to throw their weight around were in fact warned by Assad way back in 2006/7 in a speech that he admonished; those setting themselves as the power brokers in the mid East. However Saudi death row inmates, and lifers have been given the option of getting their heads lopped off, or staying in the rotten Saudi jails indefinitely. Or get a pocket full of cash and go to Syria to indulge in their hobbies of murder, rape, pillage and causing mayhem (this will not be even hinted at by the corporate media).

    As we write in Qatif (eastern Saudi Ras TaNura province) residents are openly marching in the streets and chanting; “death to al Sauds”. Bahrain is experiencing its second year of unrest, Jordan has seen the demonstrators protesting against the Hashemite dynasty, and so on. These legitimate protests not getting any air time, or debated in any of the corporate media in the West, yet the same bunch of stenographers have been busy waxing lyrical about the supposed “chemical attacks” on the “rebels” in Syria. The evidence for such claims are based on the shaving cream clad “victims” lying around and looking miserable.

    Well I for one have bought into the propaganda!!! because I have never seen the bubbles frothing from the corner of mouths of those with collapsed lungs due to stabbings on the streets of Britain, or the difficulty of these victims of stabbings in trying to breath (a common sight these days). So the red line makes a lot of sense to me. Fact is if these chicken hawks have the balls let us see how well they cope with fire from the Russian forces when they go to strut their stuff in Syria. Surely these guys ought to remember Saakashvili and what happened to him.

    Let us face it, the collapsing US empire is running out of money, and steam, and the threats of huffing and puffing are no longer cutting the mustard with their target audiences. Further, the solipsist lies propagated by the minions of the empire, somehow fail to explain away the fact; Syrian army did not use Chemical weapons at the height of the mercenary attacks, now that the same army has drilled a new butt hole for the mercenaries, why should it use such a crude weapon?

    However those wishing to start World War Three seem to have forgotten this war is not going to be fought over there, and it will be fought over here, even little DPRK pointed that out to the warmongers, hence the aggression lite, on display with caveats and the need for proofs etc. just to appease the forces of reaction and the ziofuckwits.

  17. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 2:11 pm

    @ Chris2 :

    “I, too, am profoundly grateful to whoever was responsible for ridding this forum of the scourge of Habbakuk”

    ————

    Wishful thinking, surely? Last time I looked I was still around.

    BTW, it ill behoves you to talk of my ‘insolence’ and then call for me to be banned. Perhaps you need reminding that this is not your blog and that I have as much right to be heard as anyone else. If that makes you unhappy, tough.

  18. Michael Stephenson
    27 Apr, 2013 – 1:26 pm

    Thanks for that Michael.

    While on the Middle East, the latest Frost interview with Munib al-Masri on Al Jaz is worth watching, though no references to Syria.

  19. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 2:16 pm

    Exexpat says (here, as on the previous thread) :

    “Please post the script again and maybe Mary might be tempted to come back?”

    ———–

    Are you quite sure she hasn’t done so already?

    Left in April and returned as April, so to speak?
    :)

  20. So what is your contribution justifying you being here, by right as you say habbakuk?
    what have you contributed to the free flow accumulation that evolves a thread, apart from trying to be a school masterly bore.

    This is not a university and you are not our teacher, so unless you contribute anything that advances the thread perse, why should anybody take any notice of your incessant personal attacks?

  21. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 2:49 pm

    @ Nevermind :

    “This is not a university and you are not our teacher, so unless you contribute anything that advances the thread perse, why should anybody take any notice of your incessant personal attacks?”

    ——-

    Here’s some food for thought for you :

    Are you aware of the concept of life-long learning, Nevermind?

    Are you certain that your own various contributions ‘advance the thread’?

    Is it conceivable to you that what you call ‘personal attacks’ might appear to others as justified questions and the exposing of silly and tendentious assertions?

    As to what you grandiosely call the “free flow accumulation that evolves a thread”, is that your term for posting anything that comes into your head irrespective of the theme of a thread as set out by Craig? If it is, then I would suggest that Craig ends every post of his with something along the following lines : “I would prefer it if your comments related to the subject of this thread, but do of course feel free to post on whatever is exercising you particularly at this moment”. Alternatively, you and your buddies could of course start up your own blog.

  22. doug scorgie

    27 Apr, 2013 - 2:53 pm

    “Red lines” are all over the place:

    Oxfam blackmailed (?) into accepting Board of deputies “red lines”

    “Oxfam has confirmed that it will continue to work on a joint project with the Board of Deputies after accepting a series of “red lines” presented by the Jewish organisation.”

    “There was confusion this week after a meeting between Board leaders and Oxfam’s Middle East director to discuss the Grow Tatzmiach food poverty programme ended without obvious agreement on the rules.”

    “The Board had told Oxfam that any hardening of its stance on Israel [i.e. criticism] would lead to the termination of the scheme, a threat which the charity did not immediately agree to at the private meeting on Wednesday.”

    [An Oxfam spokeswoman said on Thursday] “We hope we will be able to continue this partnership with the Board. The partnership supports our Grow campaign which is about making sure that everyone on the planet has enough to eat.[except in Gaza] One billion people currently go to bed hungry.”

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/97711/oxfam-accepts-board-deputies-red-lines

  23. The sheer arrogance of it is beyond belief, surely a principle of modern international relations, if any exist, is the abrogation of interference from without, of the interal affairs of another nation. Israel collectively may express all the opinion it likes, but coming from them where the stench of hypocrisy goes hand in hand with that of rotting and charred human flesh, it is only natural that their opinion is discounted -completely ignored. They seem to presume for themselves the right of veto over by whom and how other countries are governed, in this case, Syria, whilst occupying part of that country. Itself is not a state in the accepted sense of the word, but a protracted genocide, practised on the Palestinian people. Israel, the pariah state, laying down the law like some conquering fiend. If there could be a parallel, it would be like Nazi Germany, telling Britain that Churchill has to go, to be replaced forthwith by Oswald Mosley or some other fascist amenable to them. Zionist terrorists, backed by dull-witted power drunk yanks deferring to these parasites, dictating to the world is the ultimate absurdity of our times. Of course when troubles, death and destruction rain down on other arts of the middle-east, smiting the paranoic Israeli’s enemies, Palestine they hope is off the radar, but it isn’t, it is all the same thing as was Iraq, and now Syria. What goes around comes around, the Israeli state is not now tenable, when the certain backlash gathers momentum, it can only be rent asunder.

  24. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 3:13 pm

    @ Nevermind :

    Not that I would for a second compare myself to Craig, but I thought it would be fun to adapt your post to reflect an imaginary ticking-off that PUSS might have given Craig at the FCO in London. It could then read as follows (PUSS’s grammar and syntax would of course have been more elegant):

    “So what is your contribution justifying your presence in Uzbekhistan, by right as you say Mr Murray? What have you contributed to the gentlemanly dialogue that develops harmonious relations between our two countries, apart from being a human rights bore. The Embassy is not a human rights NGO and you are not our teacher, so unless you contribute anything that advances UK interests, why should anyone take any notice of your incessant attacks on the pratices of the Uzbekhistan government?”

    So can you see how foolish your post was?

  25. Nothing of substance then, as I expected.

    Your pomposity knows no bounds, comparing yourself to Craig is off course, such fun, isn’t it, you big head.

  26. April Showers

    27 Apr, 2013 - 3:30 pm

  27. @ Chris2 – Irrespective of who one is talking about, to say that someone “should be permanently banned on the basis that his clear purpose is to prevent the free exercise of speech” is somewhat ironic, given that the “banning” that you propose would itself “prevent the free exercise of speech”!

    See Nick Cohen’s “You Can’t Read This Book” for a thought-provoking read on the subject of censorship.

  28. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 4:07 pm

    Intended, or unintended consequences considered as equals, it seems Isolationist attitudes will be rising once, again. I’m not sure what benevolent rescue of those being annihilated through foreign policy or UN action can ever be trusted to be the true agenda for the voting public, who is just fed-up with having those tax dollars go to furthering a catastrophe. Shall outside Nations stand by and watch the slaughter of innocents, as though it’s merely a function of Darwinian principles? Millions of species went extinct even before we showed up. Is it right or wrong to intervene in complexities of Nature we don’t understand? Does our compassion for those species on the precipice of extinction, require us to keep our hands off matters we don’t fully comprehend? I am not equating the passing of animals with the deaths of people, you understand. I am trying to draw a comparison only from the standpoint of interventionism, and this matter in Syria, as Craig said, is as complex as you get. Also, I am including any form of aid, including food, which seems never to arrive at the intended doorstep, but is just more fodder for power, control and annihilation by those who control the local and regional landscape.

    Shall we ever intervene?

  29. Thanks for that stark reminder Jay, does that mean I’m standing against a fascist?

    Conservatives: All Conservatives, appeasers or anti-appeasers, are held to be subjectively pro-Fascist. British rule in India and the Colonies is held to be indistinguishable from Nazism. Organizations of what one might call a patriotic and traditional type are labelled crypto-Fascist or ‘Fascist-minded’. Examples are the Boy Scouts, the Metropolitan Police, M.I.5, the British Legion. Key phrase: ‘The public schools are breeding-grounds of Fascism’.

  30. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 4:34 pm

    Does a child’s parents care whether his death was from a bomb or from chemical weapons? I think not.

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/videos-show-aftermath-of-possible-syrian-chemical-attack-in-march/

  31. The Israelis have been signalling very, very hard to the US that the Assad family are OK by them and the last thing that Israel wants is a genuine democracy in Syria, which might want the Golan Heights back.

    I very much disagree. The Zionist entity (Ze) would ultimately love to have it’s sphere of influence overlaying large amounts of Syrian territory, but in the mean time if it’s languishing in chaos, then fair enough, all preparation for the end game. The Ze has also been the one to start the lie torrent re: chemical weapons. Hardly an OK signal. Plus the Ze commands US foreign policy and increasing I feel, NATO operations.

    The Ze would fancy its chances with a “democratic” Syria. You can easily buy democracies, as we well know.

  32. @ wikispooks/sabretache (27 Apr, 2013 – 1:22 pm)

    I find suggestions Russia and the US ruling establishments are somehow ‘linked’ in the Boston bombings intriguing, but Russia can do what the hell it likes in that region as it has done twice before. It doesn’t need to ‘bung’ anyone for that.

    I think something deeper is doing on, but I think it’s too early to speculate with any accuracy what what exactly is going on here. I will say that Russia shares some of the same diseases as the US does, but not quite as acute. I don’t think anyone should rely on Russia for anything. It has in effect has betrayed all those bombed countries since 9-11.

    A first guess involves asking if Russia is trying to draw the US into more sapping conflicts that will bankrupt them all the quicker, while Russia (one of the top: oil producers, military tech advanced, gold holding, food producers in the world)

  33. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 4:59 pm

    “A first guess involves asking if Russia is trying to draw the US into more sapping conflicts that will bankrupt them all the quicker”

    That, and to force recognition upon the US that the Chechen threat is global; kinda like 9/11 in it’s descriptors. (Cui bono?)

  34. Ironic that the credible evidence of chem weapon use originated in Israel.
    They’ve been using chemical weapons on Palestinians for years but crossed no red lines for the kind hearted and caring US to react.Illegal weapon use by the Zionist regime in occupied lands are quite okay for the White House.
    I am no expert either, but I do know what I look like when I’ve used too much shaving foam.

  35. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 5:02 pm

    @ Nevermind :

    “Your pomposity knows no bounds, comparing yourself to Craig is off course”

    ———–

    Nevermind, do you understand English?

    My post began : “Not that I would for a second compare myself to Craig,…”

    Notice the word “not”. It’s a negative. “Nicht” in your mother tongue. Got it?

  36. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 5:07 pm

    DoNnyDarko (17h01) claims of Israel :

    “They’ve been using chemical weapons on Palestinians for years but crossed no red lines for the kind hearted and caring US to react”
    ————

    Are you referring to tear gas and stink liquid or to chemical weapons like sarin?

  37. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 5:20 pm

    Jay, at 15h45, gives a link to an essay by George Orwell, and I thank him for that.

    And it made me think, not for the first time, how strange it is that Orwell isn’t quoted and linked to much more frequently by the regular posters on this blog.

    Yo might be forgiven for thinking that Orwell’s brand of thinking would a priori chime well with the free-thinking, heterodox spirits those regular posters imagine themselves to be. If it in fact does, they keep fairly quiet about it.

    Could the answer be that Orwell’s detestation of double-think and what he called “smelly little orthodoxies” makes him uncomfortable to quote on this blog, I wonder?

  38. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 5:35 pm

    @ Pan :

    Your post to Chris2 made me smile.

    But you musn’t be too hard on people like him. Their eagerness to land a knock-out blow on me and their frustration when unable to do so cloud their senses and scramble any vestiges of logical thinking.

    As someone once said, long ago and in a totally different context : they are poor dears.

  39. doug scorgie

    27 Apr, 2013 - 5:46 pm

    Pan
    27 Apr, 2013 – 3:54 pm

    “@ Chris2 – Irrespective of who one is talking about, to say that someone “should be permanently banned on the basis that his clear purpose is to prevent the free exercise of speech” is somewhat ironic, given that the “banning” that you propose would itself “prevent the free exercise of speech”!

    “See Nick Cohen’s “You Can’t Read This Book” for a thought-provoking read on the subject of censorship.”

    Pan

    You seem to be advocating freedom of speech at all costs. Should there be no restrictions on speech, for example designed to inflame hatred between groups of people that could lead to disorder and violence?

    Should blogs not have moderators?

    Should “hate preacher” Abu Qatada be deported for his views and speeches?

    What about censorship by omission from the MSM?

    I would be interested in your views.

    By the way Nick Cohen is a Zionist wanker.

  40. habbakuk, raising the possibility of comparison, by your mentioning it, whether denied or not, has put it on to agenda here.

    Just as the no fly zone over Libya raised the spectre of ‘no flying’ it did not really apply, rather the opposite.

    Your pomposity dopes know no bounds, du kleiner wicht.

  41. Craig Interesting post.It is very complicated but that has n’t stopped Sawer and M.I.6 jumping merrily into the bloodbath and probing the wounds with the help of the C.I.A. of course. Cameron Hague & Obomber need an excuse, any excuse, to intervene and as events are not progressing westerly so to speak what’s to be done? It is important that people in this country understand that the Whitehall war mongers care not a jot for the people of Syria Iraq or Palestine,all of the current chaos can be traced back to the Sykes Picot agreement of the 1920′s when France & the U.K. divied up the M.East,theft and more theft torture and genocide.How to hold our war criminals to account is the real problem.The public was media bludgened over Thatcher’s funeral and had to endure the spectacle of an assortment of war criminals from Kissinger and Cheney to the Bliars and bomber Brown singing psalms to that Hijacking Fraudmannite mass murderess.Please see my website.How to proceed against sociopaths is as ever the question.

  42. W B Yeats ‘I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

    I am very grateful to Craig especially, and to all the other contributors here for their restraint here. Syria is part of the
    Holy Land which used to be occupied by both the Samarians who were not Jews and some of the Children of Israel. Jesus pbuh in the Gospels tells the Jews that if the people of Samaria had witnessed the miracles that had been shown to the Children of Israel, they would be sitting in the street covering themselves with sackcloth and ashes.

    The Jews were deprived of the Holy Land because of their refusal to follow the sensible teachings of ‘Esa alaihi salam, (Jesus) to worship God, be just, and wait for the next prophet to arrive, Muhammad, may Allahs peace and blessings be upon him.
    They were also deprived of the custodianship of Allah’s religion Islam. The occupants of Syria at that time were not punished in the same way as the Jews because they were not under the Jewish law. The Alawi religion is a manifestation of pagan beliefs which had influenced the (Islamic) Jews by Jesus’s time and which have come to spread inside mainstream Islam as Shi’a Islam.

    There is a massive split inside the state of Israel between those who would like to regain the Holy land by returning to the tenets of their religion and those who would like to regain it by sheer political power. There is a similar massive split inside Islam, in which the political Muslims have been politically attracted to political Zionism as represented by our own darling Blair and Cameron, while being religiously attracted to Jewish Orthodoxy, and at the same time being ideologically committed to the destruction of Judaism.

    In my opinion it is the love-hate between political Islam and political Zionism which has wrecked the Muslim world. One moment political Muslims are thinking real-politick and working with Zionist elements, the next they are thinking orthodox and working with Jewish orthodoxy. The example of our prophet Muhammad SAW can be used both for political compromise as in the treaty of Hudaibiah which was initially very hard for his companions to accept and total non-compromise; and also for deep mutual respect between sister religions and deep distrust and emnity.

    In order to capitalise on these tensions the Jews have manipulated the West firstly through the means of finance and secondly through the means of theological doctrine and power to
    put boots on the ground in Syria. e.g the Crusades, e.g. the French putting the Alawis in power, e.g the establishment of Israel, and lastly through the establishment of a Shi’a regime by the US in Iraq. Now that Russia {and China} have become part of the West, Israel can use her financial and theological power more destructively by pitching East/West divisions and Christian/Communism divisions against eachother in Syria.

    Israel’s aim is clear, to bring Western boots on the ground to Syria. 20,000 US Iraq veterans are in Israel, another 20,000 US and UK troops are inside Syria, 17,000 on the Jordanian border and the rest messing around breaking things and training fighters. Turkish forces are nearby on their side of the border.
    Those boots will be used, after the destruction of Assad, and while the secular and Muslim fighters are taking control of Syria, to re-draw the borders between Sunni Syria and Shi’a Iraq, to give an orthodox Sunni buffer for Israel from the Shi’a to the North and East, and to re-draw the borders between Kurdistan and Turkey to give a Kurdish, orthodox Sunni buffer from Tehran.

    The boots will be directed by false-flag activities which give fig-leaves to western leaders, Obama, Cameron, Putin, Saudi/Qatar to pursue the interests of Israel from the pockets and blood of others.

  43. Alex Thomson, of ITN News by way of Channel 4, who is fast becoming, has become perhaps, the last real journalist on UK mainstream television, poses several pointed questions of the Israeli inspired allegations that Syria has used chemical weapons:

    http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/syria-chemical-weapons-12-key-questions/4782

    Worth following his twitter stream too, for up to date on the ground info;

    https://twitter.com/alextomo

  44. All about water.

    27 Apr, 2013 - 6:33 pm

    Has anyone thought that what lies behind all this is Israel ending up with taken over a very large part of Lebanon, right up to the Litani River.

  45. Gobholecake

    Manners maketh man. Please either insert cake in gob-hole and eat or remove cake and speak.

  46. CheebaCow,

    Just installed your UserBlocker.Works perfectly.

    Thank you so much again for all your time and effort on this,greatly appreciated.

    I have only,thus far,needed to block one poster but what a difference to the blog experience it is :.)

  47. Worth revisting again Alex Thomson’s account of how the Syrian rebels attempted to stage a false flag by murdering him and his team and blaming it on the Syrian government:

    http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/hostile-territory/1863

    His is of course not the only account of such false flag efforts by Syrian rebels.

  48. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 7:11 pm

    @ Scorgie :

    “Pan

    You seem to be advocating freedom of speech at all costs. Should there be no restrictions on speech, for example designed to inflame hatred between groups of people that could lead to disorder and violence?”

    ——–

    Doug, you remind me of a broken-down, punch-drunk old pugilist, picking himself up from the floor after receiving a haymaker only to receive another uppercut.

    Your comparison/question is exceedingly foolish. It’s interesting that you should think that my posting could lead to disorder and violence. Over the top, as usual.Enough said.

    “Should blogs not have moderators?”

    ——–

    If they would stop you using expression like “Zionist cunts” (one of your recent ones), then the answer must be “yes”.

    Now stop fooling around and start posting seriously!

  49. AA-Milne-the-reluctant-wartime-propagandist-and-the-lies-about-German-atrocities.html

    @ Nevermind

    I would be interested to know what you are standing for please?

    Do yo believe in anything to be compulsory and if yes how would you apply such.

    Perhaps free new bikes for everybody!

  50. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 7:15 pm

    @ Nevermind :

    “habbakuk, raising the possibility of comparison, by your mentioning it, whether denied or not, has put it on to agenda here.”

    ———

    On your agenda, perhaps, but not on anyone else’s and not on Craig’s, I suggest.

    Speaking of agendas, do please let us know what the electors thought of your agenda come the 2nd May, won’t you.

  51. Anyone just finished listening to Profile on Radio 4?

  52. The WARS suit the authors of PNAC (Project for a New American Century).

    And craig, you should also read ‘The Big Bamboozal’ on 9/11, and if your are still unconvinced about the conspiracy on 9/11 as the ‘New Pearl Harbour’.

  53. @ Nevermind

    I would be interested to know what you are standing for please?

    Do yo believe in anything to be compulsory and if yes how would you apply such.

    Perhaps free new bikes for everybody!

    Standing for County council in Norfolk.

    yes Jay, sustainable solutions to our infrastructure and our waste management disorganisation should be compulsory.

    Don’t know about free bikes, but some car free development a la Bremen wouldn’t go a miss, although with a genetically predetermined car mad society that has extended their ‘my home is my castle’ to their vehicles, I’m not so sure whether this will work here.

    http://www.eltis.org/studies/69e.htm

  54. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 8:51 pm

    JC on rubber crutches. See ya.

  55. It is true enough the waters of the Litani River have long been a goal of Israel’s fascists. Repeated pulverisation of Lebanon bears that out, as if they weren’t overt enough in their resource grabs, ploughing inconvenient people into the ground as they pursue their thefts. But there is more than water, there is much gas and some oil around the Caspian region, with no way out without crossing Russian, Iranian, Syrian or other territory. If Syria and Lebanon – some of the oldest civilisations in existence – can be erased from the map, an abhorrent criminally insane exercise, then there comes a putative alternative route to existing pipelines through the Caucasus, to Europe. The alternative, down through northern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon, to Israel, and then by LPG tankers from there to European ports, and by ship the long way round to India’s coast and Japan etc., puts Israel in total command, and quids in, having its thumb on the choke point of some of the last remaining fossil fuel resources left on the planet, and how they’d use that power? Your guess is as good as mine, it doesn’t sound a helathy prospect; our Westminster governments, of Labour, Tory or Liberal persuasions, seem willing to submit our destiny, our relative wealth, our survival, as successive US governments too, to the whims and predilections of the self-appointed chosen ones, the logical and proper master race they tell us. To see western civilisation peter out, deliver itself unto and submit to such mad bullies is unthinkable.

  56. As I understand it, Wiliam Hague’s initial preference was to stay out, but the case for intervention grew with the increasing loss of life. As for the ‘good guys’, I would say that it consists of those that oppose the Baath regime but are not Islamists. However a revolution in a predominantly Muslim country is liable to be hijacked by Islamists for their own ends (as has happened in Iran and Egypt), making intervention tricky.

  57. Herbie,
    I agree with you about Alex Thomson. I follow him on Twitter, and retweeted this from him,

    “Now – absolutely now the US/UK need to put up their “chemical weapons evidence”, every shred, or shut up.”

    For now at least, he seems relatively independent.

    (Back to nines again in the captcha, after a plethora of fives)

  58. doug scorgie

    27 Apr, 2013 - 9:30 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    27 Apr, 2013 – 5:02 pm

    “Nevermind, do you understand English?”

    “My post began : “Not that I would for a second compare myself to Craig,…”

    “Notice the word “not”. It’s a negative. “Nicht” in your mother tongue. Got it?”

    No Habbabkuk you said:

    “Not that I would for a second compare myself to Craig, BUT…”

    Butt head!

  59. doug scorgie

    27 Apr, 2013 - 9:45 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    27 Apr, 2013 – 5:07 pm

    The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment has recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.

    There are speculations that a chemical weapons program might be located at the Israel Institute for Biological Research in Ness Ziona.

    190 liters of dimethyl methylphosphonate, a CWC schedule 2 chemical used in the synthesis of SARIN nerve gas, was discovered in the cargo of El Al Flight 1862 after it crashed in 1992 en route to Tel Aviv.

    Former US deputy assistant secretary of defense responsible for chemical and biological defense, Bill Richardson, said in 1998 “I have no doubt that Israel has worked on both chemical and biological offensive things for a long time… There’s no doubt they’ve had stuff for years.”

    The US Congress Office of Technology Assessment records Israel as a country possessing a long-term, undeclared biological warfare program. Israel is not a signatory to the Biological Weapons Convention.

  60. doug scorgie

    27 Apr, 2013 - 9:59 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    27 Apr, 2013 – 7:11 pm

    I say:

    “Should blogs not have moderators?”

    You say:

    “If they would stop you using expression like “Zionist cunts” (one of your recent ones), then the answer must be “yes”.

    So you are not a supporter of free speech if someone says something you don’t like.

    You are a typical right-wing dolt.

    жизнь хороша

  61. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 10:06 pm

    @ Scorgie (17h07) :

    The assertion by DoNnyDarko I responded to what not that Israel possessed chemical weapons but that Israel had used chemical weapons on Palestinians for years. Check his post at 17h01.

    If you’re also claiming that Israel has used chemical weapons against Palestinians for years, please give sources for that claim.

    If you’re not, what does your comment add to that discussion?

  62. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    27 Apr, 2013 - 10:11 pm

    @ Scorgie (21h59) :

    Wrong again, Doug. I just believe that posters should be able to make their points without using the word “cunt”. Save that word for your talk with friends and family.

  63. Abe Rene
    27 Apr, 2013 – 9:06 pm

    You say:

    “As I understand it, William Hague’s initial preference was to stay out, but the case for intervention grew with the increasing loss of life.”

    William Hague is a lier.

    The increasing loss of life Abe was the result of UK and US regime-change policy and the funding, arming and training of terrorists to effect that change.

    Then you say:

    “As for the ‘good guys’, I would say that it consists of those that oppose the Baath regime but are not Islamists.”

    Islamists are people of Muslim faith. Look it up in an encyclopaedia.

    So by your definition the ‘good guys’ are non-Muslim and, by extension, the ‘bad guys’ are Muslim.

    You then say:

    “However a revolution in a predominantly Muslim country is liable to be hijacked by Islamists for their own ends (as has happened in Iran and Egypt), making intervention tricky.”

    Making intervention tricky? Why should we be intervening in the first place?

  64. Doug, although I agree with much of what you say in this post (10:34pm, 27.4.13) and earlier, Abe also made some good points, I ought to point out that ‘Islamist’ most certainly does not equate with ‘Muslim’. Although these terms – as Technicolour pointed out on a previous thread – are controversial and loaded, as commonly applied the term ‘Islamist’ connotes more with ‘Muslim Fundamentalist’ (so called) and in the case of Syria, Libya, etc. really would refer to the paramilitary Islamist groupings.

    In a nutshell, while all Islamists are Muslim, all Muslims are certianly not Islamists.

    There are also large Christian (and Druze) populations in Syria.

  65. And it is likely that as in Iraq, Egypt and elsewhere, the Christian Syrians are under grave threat from the Islamist paramilitaries which are being facilitated (either directly or indirectly) by the USA/UK et al. The Assad regime is also hellish, but it did protect minorities. I’m sure atrocities are being comitted on all sides, though. There are no good guys here. Only the ordinary people who are suffering and dying in this civil war, which is realy a proxy war b/w Saudi Arabia/UAE and Iran (and more broadly, NATO and Russia).

  66. Suhayl
    Assalamu ‘alaykum.

    ‘a proxy war b/w Saudi Arabia/UAE and Iran’ 100% yes. That is how the current violence is justified theologically by some Muslims. But I don’t believe these theoretical justifications.

    I think that really they see that this war is doing more damage to the US than to the Muslims. The US administration is beginning to suffer from Stalin-like delusions about its own citizens, induced by its own propaganda against Islam:
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-coup-of-2012-encroachment-upon-basic-freedoms-militarized-police-state-in-america/31428

    The Muslim tail is wagging the US dog and getting quite a kick out of seeing it go giddy on adrenolin.

  67. Habbabkuk
    Assalamu ‘alaykum

  68. Absolutely, Dreoilin.

    His is a curiously comforting and alternative voice in these conformist times. It’s not that long ago that even 6 Pilgers provided quite an authentic voice in talking truth to power, and before him Peter Sissons, believe it or not.

    I remember challenging Alex on some nonsense he was talking on one of those cheap scrippy java webchats they used to have in earlier interwebby days, about the peace process and weapons etc. He was talking received cobblers and repeatedly refused to answer. In the end, he did reply and his answer was to lament the decline in standards of mainstream media journalism. Despite the fact he didn’t directly address the question I’d posed, I thought it a remarkably honest answer in the circumstances. It showed awareness.

    I suspect there are many more of them who’d prefer to do their job without interference from the powers that be.

  69. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OOUdeJqpt8s#!

    Bill Maher: “This country is becoming a police state, it is very troubling to me”

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    27 Apr, 2013 – 10:06 pm

    Israel has used chemical weapons [white phosphorous] on Gaza’s civilian population; an act which it does not deny. This use of chemical weapons, as you know, is illegal under international law and a war crime.

    Has Israel used chemical weapons against Palestinians for years? I’m not sure but:

    “United Nations organizations said yesterday that it will investigate complaints that Israel used depleted uranium projectiles in the course of the fighting in Gaza, causing health and environmental damage.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/un-to-probe-claim-israel-used-depleted-uranium-bombs-in-gaza-1.268599

    If Syria should be invaded by western powers for allegedly using chemical weapons why should the same western powers not invade Israel for its proven use of chemical weapons in its attacks on Gaza?

    Hypocrisy knows no bounds in right-wing pundits like you.

    Don’t let the truth get in the way of your political ideology.

  71. “I suspect there are many more of them who’d prefer to do their job without interference from the powers that be.”

    That would be a mildly encouraging thought, Herbie.

    ************

    I meant to say that, 1) I posted the Bill Maher video when I saw Guano referring to ‘going giddy on adrenalin’. And 2) it includes a clip of the police firing on the boat in which young Tsarnaev was hiding, unarmed. Shocking.

  72. Habbakuk asks:

    “If you’re also claiming that Israel has used chemical weapons against Palestinians for years, please give sources for that claim.”

    It doesn’t much matter how you kill them, starve them, eradicate their culture.

    The Israeli treatment of the Palestinians ought to invoke outrage.

    There simply is no defense to the crimes of the Israelis against the Palestinian people.

    None!

  73. “That would be a mildly encouraging thought, Herbie.”

    I agree. Let’s not get too excited. Things are bad, and trending worse.

    But still, the history of humanity is that freedom pops out somewhere and at times everywhere, like a big leaking lump on the body politic.

    It simply isn’t possible to control the world as the neocons believe, other than temporarily.

    As they say in markets, everything returns to the mean.

  74. Abe Rene:

    However a revolution in a predominantly Muslim country is liable to be hijacked by Islamists for their own ends (as has happened in Iran and Egypt), making intervention tricky.

    Should these places ought to have been taken over by the Creationists? Born again evangelists?

    The patent malady of cultural chauvinism evidently cannot entertain the simple fact that these countries’ populations are Muslim, and they aspire to run their affairs as per their religious imperatives. This does not make these “bad guys” but punters wishing to live their lives their own way, and not as per the edicts of foreign governments intent on interfering in the internal affairs of their countries.

    Suhayl Saadi:

    …. term ‘Islamist’ connotes more with ‘Muslim Fundamentalist’ (so called) and in the case of Syria, Libya, etc. really would refer to the paramilitary Islamist groupings.

    Fact that political Islam is derided and frowned upon by the Western establishment, has resulted in promotion of the “salafist movements” (mostly reactionary mercenaries of the Western SIS), that in turn has resulted in conflation of the political Islam and the mercenaries and branded as the “Islamist” movement.

    Further, given the geographic proximity of Iran, and Russia to Syria, and the patent PANC inspired wars of aggression imposed on the countries in mid east by the far off US.

    Fact that during the years of the Western sponsored attacks of Saddam on Iran, the only Arab country to stand by Iranians was Syria, has never crossed the minds of anyone whom now pontificates about Iran’s support for Syria. The same goes for the geopolitical implications of sealing off the Mediterranean basin to Russians, an effective first step in preparing the next leg of attacks; the attack on Russia. Is not any concern of the “analysts” on this blog.

    The simplistic approach of; the AM way or the highway seems to be the only brand of thought that is getting promoted along with suppression or discouragement of any other lines of thought.

    Syrians are not about to give up and let their country to be turned over to foreign governments. Although by now it should be obvious but to the blind, that the story does not end in Syria, because already Tunisia, and Egypt are on the treatment list and in the wings stacked to be plunged into the chaos of contrived “civil war”, the old nostrum of Philippines, is the kind of lesson that the unimaginative chicken hawks in US would gladly stick to.

  75. karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away

    28 Apr, 2013 - 1:05 am

    Halibabacus (in culo e vita)
    from your frantic verbal ejaculations, I infer that you must have taken a recent delivery of shekels from tel aviv. Rather than buying few more pressure cookers, please share some of that valuable currency with us and we will all turn into hasbara clowns.

  76. Hi,

    Tony

  77. “The very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world. Lies will pass into history.”(George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair, 1903-1950.)

    Interestingly it was a few months into the Iraq war when historian Matthew Jones unearthed 1957 plans between Prime Minister Harold Macmillan and President Dwight Eisenhower, endorsing: “a CIA-MI6 plan to stage fake border incidents as an excuse for an invasion (of Syria) by Syria’s pro-western neighbours.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/27/uk.syria1

    In the light of my own source(Dubai) and that of the Syrian government implying intervention by foreign forces [terrorists] one concludes some allusion to the original 1957 plan which stated in part:

    “Once a political decision has been reached to proceed with internal disturbances in Syria, SIS (MI6) and other operatives will attempt to mount minor sabotage and coup de main(sic)incidents within Syria, working through contacts with key individuals.”

    London and Washington had become increasingly concerned at Syria’s increasingly pro-Soviet, rather than pro-Western sympathies, signed off the top secret document. It was, wrote Macmillan in his diary, “a most formidable report.” A report which was, “withheld even from British Chiefs of Staff…”

    The Eisenhower-Macmillan plan was for funding of a “Free Syria Committee” (Free Syrian Army?) and “arming of political factions with paramilitary or other actionist capabilities” (al-Qaeda?), within Syria.

    Oh! the irony Mrs Clinton – Oh! the gems of historical truth recovered, restored and reinstituted.

  78. Can you please unban me. I like to read what Craig has to say, and to do so I have got to use a spoof email address…and I don’t like doing that.

    Thanks,

    Tony

  79. US Commando War in 120 Countries:
    Uncovering the Military’s Secret Operations In the Obama Era.

    By Nick Turse

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28747.htm

    A flavor of British and American training exercises butchery, conducted mainly in the shadows by those sworn to secrecy -or suicide. Thanks to Rob for your strength.

  80. Mark,

    You are bit of a gem.

    Thanks,

    Tony

  81. I think the secret is to come over REALLY NORTHERN and thick…REALLY WORKING CLASS…

    and say, I can do that….

    They look at you as if you are a piece of shit….

    So then You Do Not Come Back After Having Your Elocution Lessons To Talk Posh and You Do Not Dress Posh…

    What was that job you wanted someone to do?

    DONE

    I’ll Fuck Off Now, unless you Unban Me.

    I bet you don’t know how to, unless you let em all in…all these loonies who have been telling you how it really is since 9/11, and you just didn’t get it did you????

    We need to get beyond this stage – and go on to possible solutions and a free exchange of views…

    Or are you only slowly realising we are fucked?

    Tony

  82. dont post drunk please

  83. @ lwtc247 27 Apr, 2013 – 4:55 pm
    “@ wikispooks/sabretache (27 Apr, 2013 – 1:22 pm)
    I find suggestions Russia and the US ruling establishments are somehow ‘linked’ in the Boston bombings intriguing,”

    Summary of a comment posted elsewhere:
    “Alleged Boston Bombers’ Uncle Ruslan Tsarni [Tsarnaev] was married with Samantha Ankara Fuller, daughter of this guy listed below. He served 20 years as an operations officer in the CIA.” http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wikiGraham_Fuller

    “Explains why Tamerlan was phoning his uncle Ruslan while the police was hunting them with guns and that he said ” uncle please excuse what my (mothers) family (suleimanov) has done…”

    http://m.foreignaffairs.com/author/graham-e-fuller
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2007/12/13/a_world_without_islam
    http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/samantha-ankara-fuller
    http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=allgs&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsln=Tsarnaev&uidh=bhv&ti=0

  84. @Tony..the reason you got banned in the first place was the rambling rants that you posted whilst probably pissed..it was amusing for a time, but got rather boring and annoying..if you want to be unbanned, try commenting on the discussions here rather than the crap you posted above…

  85. April Showers

    28 Apr, 2013 - 7:14 am

    Lurching Towards Sirte: NATO’s War on Libya and Africa by Maximilian Forte

    In his Ceasefire review, Dan Glazebrook examines Maximilian Forte’s withering indictment of liberal humanitarianism and its collusion in imperialist designs on Africa, as seen in NATO’s Libya campaign of 2011.

    The media has gone very quiet on Libya of late; clearly, liberal imperialists don’t like to dwell on their crimes. This is not surprising. The modus operandi of the humanitarian imperialist is not one of informed reflection, but only permanent outrage against leaders of the global South; besides, in the topsy-turvy world of liberal interventionism, the “failure to act” is the only crime of which the West is capable.

    As Forte puts it, their moral code holds that “If we do not act, we should be held responsible for the actions of others. When we do act, we should never be held responsible for our own actions.” With Muammar Gaddafi dead, the hunt is on for a new hate figure on whom to spew venom (Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, North Korean leader Kim Jong-eun); far more satisfying than actually evaluating our own role in the creation of human misery. This is the colonial mentality of the liberal lynch mob.

    For the governments that lead us into war, of course, it makes perfect sense that we do not stop to look back at the last invasion before impatiently demanding the next one – if we realized, for example, that the 1999 bombing of Serbia – the textbook “humanitarian intervention”- actually facilitated the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo it was supposedly designed to prevent, we might not be so ready to demand the same treatment for every other state that falls short of our illusory ideals.

    continued on Ceasefire Magazine
    http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/review-slouching-sirte-natos-war-libya-africa-maximilian-forte/

    The accompanying photo shows a man standing on the bombed remains of Sirte harbour which is very reminiscent of the bombed remains of Gaza’s port, airport, harbour, etc.

  86. Thanks NR

  87. Tony Opmoc

    I would happily unban you if I knew how. Are you quite sure you are physically banned? Normally when I tell people they are banned from commenting (which has happened about five times in six years) I am bluffing. In your case, I think everyone just wanted you to stop the massive double spaced maudlin musings on events of your life in the wee small hours. Might make an interesting book though. You would be welcome back if you can refrain on that score.

  88. English Knight

    28 Apr, 2013 - 9:24 am

    Oh no, not another 15 year Zen Koan – this time only for Habbabkyk !!

    “If no Chechnya 34 story hotel like structure comes down by fire in the next umpteen years, can 911 false flag enter the revered “NEVER AGAIN” holohoax territory?

  89. doug scorgie

    28 Apr, 2013 - 9:27 am

    Perhaps he “tried it on” with a hotel room cleaner?

    He was a friend of Jimmy Savile’s after all.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22327490

  90. @ Doug.

    The right left thing is a failed theory.

    I am trying to get you you Cammel Laird waterline strike stuff.

    Habba is most obviously a very intelligent human being; if that make them right wing I am not so sure. With intelligence applied properly our crumbling society could soom be re,built.

    Application of theory destroyed by rhetoric.

    Divide and rule.

  91. There has been an explosion in the US at an oil refinery owned by a company called Marathon surely a coincidence but it keeps the yanks’ minds on the Boston bombing.

    http://rt.com/usa/explosion-refinery-detroit-tanker-520/

  92. Jay

    28 Apr, 2013 – 9:52 am

    “! am trying to get you your Cammel Laird waterline strike stuff.”

    After all this time you haven’t been able to back-up your statement?

    Shows that I was right in calling it a lie and you a liar.

  93. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Apr, 2013 - 10:56 am

    @ Ccorgie (23h57 yesterday) :

    “United Nations organizations said yesterday that it will investigate complaints that Israel used depleted uranium projectiles in the course of the fighting in Gaza, causing health and environmental damage.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/un-to-probe-claim-israel-used-depleted-uranium-bombs-in-gaza-1.26
    ———–

    Thank you for that link.

    You fail to mention, however, that the Haaretz article in the link dates from January 2009.

    So the UN will have had ample time to finalise the investigation you referred to by now ( 2013).

    Results/conclusion of said investigation please?

  94. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Apr, 2013 - 11:03 am

    @ Scorgie :

    “Jay

    28 Apr, 2013 – 9:52 am

    “! am trying to get you your Cammel Laird waterline strike stuff.”

    After all this time you haven’t been able to back-up your statement?

    Shows that I was right in calling it a lie and you a liar.”

    ————–

    No, it doesn’t. It shows that Jay hasn’t yet found the source. Must you always insult people?

    It could of course be that Jay is being dilatory. Perhaps he remembers your insistent calls on me to produce sources to back up something I’d said and then when I did so you told me you “couldn’t be arsed” to read/check them?

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Apr, 2013 - 11:16 am

    Herbie, at 00h04, posts as follows :

    “Habbakuk asks:

    “If you’re also claiming that Israel has used chemical weapons against Palestinians for years, please give sources for that claim.”

    It doesn’t much matter how you kill them, starve them, eradicate their culture.

    The Israeli treatment of the Palestinians ought to invoke outrage.

    There simply is no defense to the crimes of the Israelis against the Palestinian people.

    None!”

    ————-

    That “answer” is an interesting and, alas, typical example of how the Eminences deal with questions and challenges.

    1/. One Eminence asserts that Israel has been using chemical weapons (presumably of the same type as Assad is alleged to have used in Syria, not tear gas and the like)against the Palestinians “for years”.

    2/. Somewhat surprised, I ask the poster for his sources.

    3/. Herbie doesn’t give those sources and nimbly sidesteps with the remark that “it doesn’t matter how you kill them, starve them..etc”.

    All of which may be very true, but the assertion of the use of chemical weapons for years remains unsourced.

    Emperor, naked.

  96. Ghassan Hitto was elected to head up the Syrian provisional rebel government at the Arab League summit in Doha, Qatar in March 2013.

    Ghassan Hitto, born in Damascus, left Syria to the U.S. in 1980, became a naturalized American citizen, lived in Texas from 2001 to 2012 & worked as an information technology executive with Inovar Inc., Texas, a company who supply stuff to the US miltary….

    Oh & the March 2013 Arab League summit also sanctioned ‘weapons shipments to the rebels’…..

  97. Habbakuk, Knew that would rattle your keyboard !
    The chemical weapons I referred to were of course DU, White phosphorous, the dreadful chemo stinking slime which they spray over the population of the occupied west bank, the vast array of differing gas grenades they use to disperse crowds that object to being made homeless, having their olive trees ripped up, having walls built around their villages etc etc etc.
    There were also the chemo weapons used that caused injuries never before seen by doctors.
    So no idea what that was.Might’ve been Sarin, who knows ?
    So there is a bit of a list ! They’ve used banned weapons already and are still using them, and we know they possess real nasty Chemicals, so there is a big chance they’ll use them too.
    Assad’s not the big danger ! The loony brigade in charge of Israel are. No telling what they might do next.

  98. One can see that it has no military training whatsoever, no idea of the symptoms of Sarin gas, nor any inkling of what exploding white phosphorous bombs on our TV news looks like.

    Just make sure Sophie is around when you view this, so she can add to her lifelong education as you say.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY0dpyKiW34&feature=related

    some further footage should satisfy your need for evidence.
    https://sites.google.com/site/kitkirja/white-phosphorus-bombs

    So what have we got to look forward to from you today?

    Your past performance here is derisory and poor, you could do so much better if you only tried.

    How about some proper leaking habby, something that we can get our teeth into?

    what do you say? no access to any filthy stinking secrets? what a shame…..

  99. The word ‘alleged’ is a 14th century mixed up adjective derived from alleggen- to submit in evidence or as justification from Latin to adduce in support of a plea.

    Frequently used to assert without proof but also indicating doubt depending on context.

    Thus allege is an ideal word for lies and propaganda, main stream media deceit, habitual trolling or spineless ‘two bobs’ worth statements.

    Here is an example:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/05/wikileaks-bradley-manning-punitive

    or here:

    “presumably of the same type as Assad is alleged to have used in Syria…

  100. Slightly off topic, but Craig and myself have a mutual ling to Blackburn and Lancashire.

    Nothing much has changed there, although after Craig’s attempt to stop ‘treating’ by presenting Blackburn and Lancashire police with an Affidavit and never heard of it again, I don’t think that this ‘action’ will result in any of the local corruption and nepotism will amount to anything at all.

    http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10376711.Police_team_on_alert_for_voting_fraud_in_East_Lancashire/

  101. doooh, ‘link’

  102. Sophie Habercake

    28 Apr, 2013 - 2:04 pm

    Dad!

    We’ve been looking for you for hours and now we find you’ve been posting away as though nothing happened. And it’s as stupid as ever and Mrs Forthby doesn’t care who was after you, she’s just really cross about you breaking her fence and squashing her favourite Camelia.

    When Mr Kemp had finished smashing up your Dell he told mum you were a “f**king embarassment and you can’t hide forever” and That Man just said “Yus he can’t hide for
    for for very long.”

    And mum says you must have crept back while we were searching and taken a few things because all your camping stuff which you never used is gone and Adrian thinks you’ve taken that old laptop that Uncle Bernard gave him cos he can’t find it anywhere and he knows it was in the box with all his Transformers and Ben Ten stuff.

    Dad, why don’t you just come home and get some help?

  103. doug scorgie

    28 Apr, 2013 - 2:25 pm

    “Even after Boston, there is more anti-Jewish than anti-Muslim sentiment in U.S., says ADL’s Foxman”

    “As the Anti-Defamation League is marking its 100th anniversary, its leader says anti-Semitism in the U.S. is widespread, especially among Hispanic immigrants and African-Americans.”

    The Zionists never give up their hyperbolic narrative of victimhood but the informed amongst us know it’s bullshit.

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/even-after-boston-there-is-more-anti-jewish-than-anti-muslim-sentiment-in-u-s-says-adl-s-foxman.premium-1.517960

  104. doug scorgie

    28 Apr, 2013 - 2:48 pm

    “Syria nerve gas claims undermined by eyewitness accounts”

    “New questions have emerged over the source of the soil and other samples from Syria which, it is claimed, have tested positive for the nerve agent sarin, amid apparent inconsistencies between eyewitness accounts describing one of the attacks and textbook descriptions of the weapon.”

    “According the US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention, “sarin is a nerve agent that is one of the most toxic of the known chemical warfare agents. It is a clear colourless liquid … generally odourless and tasteless.”

    “But eyewitness accounts of that attack, in which six rebels died and which were reported at the time by the Associated Press described “white smoke” pouring from shells that “smell[ed] … like hydrochloric acid”.

    “According to the US and UK governments, “miniscule” samples recovered by OPPOSITION SOURCES and passed on to western intelligence agencies have shown traces of sarin.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/28/syrian-nerve-gas-claims-eyewitness

  105. In 1996, Israeli dual citizens Douglas Feith and Richard Perle were both advisors to Israel’s Likud Party leader Benjamin Netanyahu. During that time, the duo co-authored a policy paper, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm.

    In it, they said that Saddam would have to be destroyed, and that Syria, Lebanon, and Iran would all have to be overthrown or destabilized in order for Israel to be truly safe.

    If one then considers that Netanyahu comes from a family that believe in ‘Greater Israel’ from the Nile to the Euphrates, and from a political party that is extreme enough to believe that this could be achieved, it becomes all the more likely that the principal reason for the civil war in Syria is to damage the infrastructure to such a degree that when the Israelis have achieved their final objective which is to ‘persuade’ the US to destroy the Iranian military, Israel can launch it’s false flag ‘war’ to expand territory without any of it’s neighbours being in a position to stop them.

    p.s. Where is Mary ?

  106. O/T but still in the neighbourhood:

    Bush n Blair’s leading-light middle-eastern democracy, Iraq has withdrawn broadcasting licences of Al Jazeera and 9 other broadcasters.

    170 people have been killed in the last week in sectarian violence.

  107. Fedup
    Hi. ‘these countries’ populations are Muslim, and they aspire to run their affairs as per their religious imperatives’
    That’s why:
    Ghassan Hitto, born in Damascus, left Syria to the U.S. in 1980, became a naturalized American citizen, lived in Texas from 2001 to 2012 & worked as an information technology executive with Inovar Inc., Texas, a company who supply stuff to the US miltary…

    USUKIS would not require anything less than an IT engineer for choice of Muslim replacement leader, capable of setting up a comprehensive spying system for controlling the mind-crimes of the Muslims, like wanting freedom…

  108. Good post, i will share with my friends.

  109. karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away

    28 Apr, 2013 - 7:22 pm

    Craig,

    You are quite right that a death from gas might be preferable and more humane than a high velocity bullet passing through your stomach. Every reasonable man would scream – give me gas any time. Why should a tory like Hague get excited over alleged gas attacks in Syria is thus a mystery. It shows a certain degree of degeneracy of the once “great” party and some disrespect to Winston ChurchilL who was rather fond of using gas in warfare cf. http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHU407A.html. Gas was very much en vogue throughout nineteentwenties as even the relatively decent chap, TE Lawrence advocated its use in Iraq in his letter to the Times cf. http://www.publicintegrity.org/2002/08/09/3174/letter-london-history-lesson-iraq. So why to sneer at traditional conservative values now? What seemed proper then cannot be all that bad now.

    Unfortunately, the suckers of today are too confused by various red lines here and there like the one drawn by the former furniture salesman Netanyahu through an infantile drawing of what was supposed to be an atomic bomb. Watch this clown at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkKKyMPg5xU. Most probably, he learned the art of drawing lines through various real or imaginary objects in his former “proffession” as he tried to explain his customers what piece of furniture may or may not fit into the space available to them.

  110. doug scorgie

    28 Apr, 2013 - 8:01 pm

    Racist Israel, racist America.

    “The Israeli routine is well known to American government officials. The State Department’s Israel travel advisory includes this caution: “U.S. citizens whom Israeli authorities suspect of being of Arab, Middle Eastern or Muslim origin” may be denied “entry or exit without explanation.”

    “So why then have [Senator] Boxer and her 18 senatorial co-sponsors proposed a U.S.-Israel Strategic Partnership Act that would, among other things, include Israel in a visa waiver program that would make it easier for Israelis to visit the United States?”

    “Currently, citizens of 37 participating countries can enter the U.S. without a visa. American citizens can enter each of those countries on identical terms. Israel would be No. 38 — at least in terms of easy entry to the United States. Israel reportedly will not agree to the reciprocity requirement because it wants to continue racially profiling Muslim and Arab Americans.”

    “Why such blatant racial profiling of American citizens from a country our political leaders regularly call our best friend and ally?”

    “No Arab American has ever committed crimes in Israel to warrant harassment of us all — unless criticism of Israeli policies is such a crime. For while we all experience lengthy detention and interrogation, those of us who bear public witness to Israel’s oppression of Palestinians are the most likely to be denied entry.”

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-bisharat-boxer-bad-israel-policy-20130428,0,3094847.story

  111. Guano I have for a long time valued your comments here.

    The mystical level of sufism holds that the only jihad to be fought is in the heart.

    Similarly, the Christian mystics know that once we slay the enemy within, the enemy without disappears.
    I would love to have more time to write; but your comment above inspired me.
    So while I am at it, thank you Craig and other wise and funny, sad and thoughtful and insightful contributors. You know who you are :-)

  112. “You are quite right that a death from gas might be preferable and more humane than a high velocity bullet passing through your stomach. ”

    From Wiki:-

    “Initial symptoms following exposure to sarin are a runny nose, tightness in the chest and constriction of the pupils. Soon after, the victim has difficulty breathing and experiences nausea and drooling. As the victim continues to lose control of bodily functions, the victim vomits, defecates and urinates. This phase is followed by twitching and jerking. Ultimately, the victim becomes comatose and suffocates in a series of convulsive spasms.”

    Victims receiving less than a lethal dose may suffer permanent neurological damage. Gas is also totally indiscriminate. If there happen to be civilians nearby they are going to get killed or otherwise affected too.

    I wonder if people here would be quite so pragmatic if it was Israel that was being accused of using nerve gas.

  113. April Showers

    29 Apr, 2013 - 8:55 am

    Israel did use ‘nerve gas’ in 2001.

    http://wikispooks.com/wiki/2001_Israeli_Nerve_Gas_Attacks

    Israel knows no law(s).

    International agreements

    Israel signed but has not ratified the Chemical Weapons Convention. Israel recognises the Fourth Geneva Convention, but not its applicability to the Occupied Palestinian Territory of the West Bank (and formerly Gaza). Article 147 of the Geneva Convention stipulates that to “willingly cause [civilians] great suffering or serious injury to body or health” is a “grave breach”, which, according to Article 146, requires all High Contracting Parties to “search for persons alleged to have committed or to have ordered to commit such grave breaches” and must “bring such person regardless of their nationality before their own courts”.

  114. April Showers

    29 Apr, 2013 - 9:00 am

    The chap in the flat (SOHR) in the Midlands adds to this BBC Breaking News report.

    29 April 2013 Last updated at 08:49
    Syria crisis: PM Halaqi ‘survives Damascus car bombing’Scene of Mazzeh bombing according to Damascus News Network (29/04/13) The bomb is reported to have caused casualties

    Syrian Prime Minister Wael al-Halaqi has survived a car bomb attack in the capital, Damascus, reports say.

    The blast in Mazzeh district targeted Mr Halaqi’s convoy, state television said. There are reported to be a number of casualties.

    UK-based activist group, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said Mr Halaqi’s bodyguard had been killed, AFP news agency reported.

    Syrian news agency Sana said the explosion hit near Ibn Rushed Park.

  115. More blurring of lines, here the Guardian is making out that Malian Islamist’s, that awful term, were implicated in Libya, justifying the war in Mali.
    More eye washing galore, NATO has create chaos, it has done zilch to disarm the population awash with arms and sectarianism and old scores being settled has kept the country in turmoil.

    Meanwhile the only interests of the west, the sweet Libyan crude exporting terminals are heavily guarded by US and NATO forces. Unless the oil stops flowing they are not interested.
    Ambassador Stephens death will hopefully be on Ms. Clinton’s mind until she enters the gates of hell to meet tax evader Margaret and her dubious friends.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/28/libya-mali-islamist-violence-tripoli

  116. Craig

    Thank you for clarification. So this issue is clear to me now. Today I found a reliable source for what Israel’s position regarding the conflict in Syria really is. Associated Press reports:

    “Although Assad is a bitter enemy, Israel has been careful not to take sides in Syria’s civil war, partly because the Assad family has kept the border with Israel quiet for the past 40 years and because of fears of what would happen if he is overthrown. Israeli military officials believe some Syrian opposition groups, especially those affiliated with the al-Qaida terror group, will turn their focus toward Israel once Assad is ousted.”

    Source: Associated Press via Washington Post, 29 Apr 2013, “Israeli lawmaker urges intervention in Syria, claims chemical weapons ‘trickling’ to Hezbollah”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israeli-lawmaker-urges-intervention-in-syria-warns-chemical-weapons-trickling-to-hezbollah/2013/04/29/69f4b42c-b0bd-11e2-9fb1-62de9581c946_story.html

    In these times where people follow some fringe comedy shows and diplomats to get the news instead of reliable maintream news agencies, it’s sometimes hard to distinguish skits from news. :-)

  117. karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    29 Apr, 2013 - 3:59 pm

    Kempe
    it is no secret to most contributors to this blog that you are a manipulative and habitual liar. May I point out to you that running nose would hardly be a great worry to a combatant. The same could be said about shitting and pissing into own trousers, something often experienced by soldiers without being even hit or gassed. There are humourous accounts from the First world war how infanterists managed to fill their pants with shit three time in a row. For the first time when given the order to leave the trenches, then on contact with the enemy and finally during the retreat to trenches they left short time before.

    Sarin will kill you within a minute, rather good when considering other options. Although organophosphates like sarin or tabun are irreversible inhibitors of acetylcholinesterase, if you survive and can be treated new enzyme will be soon synthetised leading to a recovery (cf. J Neurochem. 1981 Oct;37(4):909-16.). People actually recover from sarin poisoning very well if treated properly as documented by the relatively recent mass poisoning in Tokyo (http://www.impact-kenniscentrum.nl/doc/kennisbank/1000010491-1.pdf).

    That Israel is a country run by war criminals is a fact, whether they use sarin or not. In my opinion this blog would benefit if it could be swept clean of semi-educated clowns like you whose only source of wisdom seems to be wikipedia.

  118. “Sarin will kill you within a minute, ”

    It might if the dose is high enough, as your link confirms four of the victims took several days to die, 28 in one case. As of 2010 around 90 people have filed claims for PTSD and paralysis as a result of the Tokyo attack and thousands had to be treated for minor effects.

    http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/sarin/basics/facts.asp

    A runny nose might interfere with a soldiers aim, obviously other of the symptoms listed above would be more debilitating.

    Goodnight.

  119. Passerby

    “However those wishing to start World War Three seem to have forgotten this war is not going to be fought over there, and it will be fought over here, even little DPRK pointed that out to the warmongers, hence the aggression lite, on display with caveats and the need for proofs etc. just to appease the forces of reaction and the ziofuckwits.”

    Where specifically will it be fought other than ‘it will be fought over here’?

    ‘forces of reaction… ziofuckwits’? Please elaborate….

  120. karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    29 Apr, 2013 - 8:17 pm

    kempe,

    you have obviously not bothered to read the article about the tokyo attack. What you cite has nothing to do with it and is just a website with general information for fools, I presume, and has nothing to do with scientific evidence. If you cannot tell the diference between a leaflet and an article in a scientific journal then you are beyond salvation. You are lying again about the neurological defects of victims exposed to the tokyo sarin attack. Out of 111 patients admitted as in patients to the Saint Luke hospital, 101 were discharged within two days. No hospital would ever discharge anyone with neurological problems. You made it up, where is the evidence for your claim? Just fuck off it will be better for everyone.

  121. ‘That Israel is a country run by war criminals is a fact’

    Do go on, please.

  122. The “leaflet” as you describe is what in the UK wold be called a Hazard Data Sheet, it contains vital information for emergency workers.

    The paper you linked to mentions long term effects if you bother to read it but it was only published in 1997 so can’t be expected to contain much information about people who have suffered long term medical or psychological problems. This paper describes follow up examinations of victims up to 7 years after the attack.

    http://www.blnz.com/news/2008/05/13/Decade_after_Tokyo_Sarin_Attack_7888.html

  123. Kempe – the paper you cite is inconclusive, and certainly doesn’t support your case. Much of the testing was for PTSD (which would be expected in at least some of the victims and witnesses of any terrorist attack) and the author mentions the need for more sensitive tests. This notwithstanding that clinical tests for agricultural OP products are well-established. Sarin is essentially an OP insecticide refined for use on vertebrates. It might be expected to be more toxic to us, long-term, than, say malathion. But it’s a knock-down insecticide. After the initial hit, assuming the body’s got that far, it recovers well.

    Unlike someone who has been gut-shot either by a high-velocity round or shrapnel, generally speaking. PTSD is quite common among such cases as well, and the pain is appalling. Both to the victim, and those nearby who have to listen to him. Sometimes for days.

    I’m not defending the use of nerve agents. They’re completely indiscriminate, and are the product of the same slaughterhouse mentality as, say, drones, heavy-metal-enhanced blast weapons or flechette rounds (all enthusiastically used by Israel). But if I had my choice, personally, they’re a lot quicker than a bullet in the belly.

  124. Thanks for that last paragraph, Komodo, you had me shivering for a second.

    Sophie Habercake is coming round to liking you, maybe one day you will be sharing your buffalo breakfast with her…

  125. well the paper did rather concentrate on PTSD but are you saying that PTSD is not a real illness?

    The long term effects of organophosphates have been well documented. A lot of agricultural workers were permanantly affected during the time DEFRA or it’s predecessors insisted on the use of OP sheepdips.

    That high velocity bullet might just as easily hit you in the head or chest in which case it’s game over very quickly, much quicker than sarin, and as you say any chemical or biological weapon is indiscriminate, uncontrolable once released and can be persistant. For these reasons alone their use is not to be prefered over firearms.

  126. No, of course I am not saying that PTSD is not a real disease. Read my post if you disbelieve me. Might have helped if you’d read it first…but PTSD is not specific to nerve agents or anything else. Simply being in combat can bring it on; the worse the trauma, the more likely it is. Indeed, Sarin might have had nothing to do with it in Tokyo. Watching people around you convulsing and dying, like being in a combat situation, would be a plausible first cause by itself.

    Agricultural workers are routinely exposed to rather high doses of OP’s over a long period, perhaps their entire working lives. The two cases are not comparable. Certainly there are adverse effects from this kind of exposure, probably more than the farming industry will confess to. I have some experience of the level of awareness of this risk among farmers and their employees – awareness is sometimes nonexistent

    And the Sarin might just as easily blow downwind of you. True of any weapon – it might kill you and it might not. Irrelevant.

  127. Bird of family Troglolytidae

    30 Apr, 2013 - 4:10 pm

    This Syria stuff is shit! Why do we always have to commit our military, and we are we expected to be the world police? France, England, Isreal, etc. If they have proof of chemical weapons then they should do something, not us. I would love to see England and France work on a no fly zone, and put boots on the ground. Maybe then we could provide a force of say a thousand, and if I had my way they would only be used for humanitarian purposes. It’s total bull shit that the 82nd AD has now completed training on seizing areas as fast as possible, so we can drop them in after the regime collapses to secure WMD’s…

    No we’ll have to create a no fly zone (best case), or provide the majority of boots on the ground (worst case). We’ll start taking complaints, especially from the extreme left, that we’re using drones and killing innocents (which happens in any war). We’ll be accused of imperialism again and again. 60% of Americans don’t support an intervention of any kind. Especially if we just give weapons, because they will fall into the hands of radical Islamists and others who can create future problems.

    Britain, France, et. all, you found the evidence, you do something about it or shut the hell up…

  128. karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    30 Apr, 2013 - 7:57 pm

    kempe

    you are a hopeless case but let me point out to you that there are millions of children in Gaza, Iraq and Afghanistan suffering PTSD from regular bombing and jets overflying their houses at night while just “accidently” breaking the sound barrier. You do not give a shit about them because these are chidren of “bad” people and your beloved Israel is a good and democratic country. These children can make no claims of compensation unlike those supposedly traumatized in Tokyo. Like many others you are just an ordinary hypocrite.

    Komodo

    thanks for support, you are a good friend. Unlike you, most clowns frequenting this blog do no realize that after exposure to sarin you either survive or fully recover with the exception of few unfortunates who get a heart attack or their brains become hypoxic for a while leading to neuronal death. This is a small percentage, however, even though I must admit that I am not aware of any study on this matter. Compared to sarin, any hit by shrapnel fragments or a bullet will cause terrible injuries as there are thousand ways to cripple the poor wretches. Nowadays a lot of soldiers survive even a head or neck shot but with a disastrous outcome. It is also interesting to look up the israeli terror in Gaza using white phophorus cf.http://www.vtjp.org/background/gazaweapons.php

  129. trowbridge h. ford

    1 May, 2013 - 1:24 am

    As is increasingly so in the conduct of American foreign policy, what is discussed by Washington. the pundits, and the media is just a smoke screen for what is really going on.

    While Obama is talking about red lines when it comes to Syria’s alleged use of chemical weapons – what threatens the establishment of a no-fly zone, and ultimate US troops on the ground in yet another regime change – the CIA is daily trying to decapitate it by killing its leaders, especially Assad, being confidant that it would then fall apart.

    And what ever happened to Washington’s effort to divide-and-rule in the far Pacific? Looks like its attempt to isolate North Korea has simply gone off the radar.

    Looks like Beijing has told Washington- after the repeated man-made devastating earthquake in Sichuan, that if it really wants a showdown there. it will have one – what got North Korea to drop its aggressive posturing.

  130. karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    1 May, 2013 - 8:36 pm

    For those interested in the intricacies of chemical warfare, I would recommend the following article: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ that also provides links to pertinent information.

  131. Oh that’s rich, after dismissing a link I provided as “just a website with general information for fools, ” which “has nothing to do with scientific evidence.” we get a link to Informationclearinghouse! Priceless!!

    Waiting for the real science behind chemtrails and 9/11.

    After the day I’ve had I needed cheering up. Thanks!

  132. test

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