Pandering to Racism

by craig on June 26, 2013 1:52 pm in Uncategorized

Here in Ghana people are stunned by the announcement that a bond of £3,000 will have to be submitted by visa applicants to the UK, redeemable on return.

It is unpleasant for a nation to be singled out as comprised of particularly untrustworthy individuals against whom special measures are needed.  Theresa May appears quite deliberately to be singling out countries whose citizens are normally black or brown – India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Ghana and Nigeria.  They are all citizens with extremely close ties to the UK.  For example, all of those countries supplied large numbers of men to British armed forces in two World Wars; with little resulting gratitude.

The true level of Britain’s regard for the Commonwealth is disclosed in all its arrogance; citizenship of the Commonwealth countries with the longest link to the UK will become a positive disadvantage in visa application.  Israeli settlers living in Occupied Palestine on the West Bank, incidentally, will still be allowed to enter the UK without any visa at all, despite membership of neither Commonwealth nor EU.  Paradoxical, isn’t it?

The measure shows the arrogant British disdain for these countries – of which India pre-eminently but also Ghana are fast growing and important trading partners.  Undoubtedly Ghana will retaliate with measures which hurt British businesses; many of my good friends are senior Ghanaian politicians, and they are all furious.  The rhetoric the British employ about transformation from colonial status to a modern partnership of equals is exposed for the tissue of lies it has always been.  This is a straightforward racist measure, aimed at securing the racist vote to the Tories.

Not does it make any sense.  If you are intending to enter the UK under false pretences, and have the intent illegally to settle and start a new life there, then £3,000 is scarcely a deterrent given the substantial economic gains you intend to make over the long period you intend to stay.  It will rather seem a good investment; people will find the money.  The people it will deter are those who never intended to overstay.  The extra cash upfront,  to the businessman for a business trip, for the student coming to study, for the tourist will drive them to go elsewhere, to the UK’s net loss.

More cruelly it will deter decent middle class people from coming to see grandchildren in the holidays, from going to the niece’s wedding,  from going to graduation.  Those things will become the prerogative of the wealthy, those with plenty of cash to spare.

This does nothing to deter illegal immigration.  It merely demonstrates populist racism, demonstrates contempt for some of the UK’s best-disposed friends, and demonstrates that the government thinks the right to travel is only for the rich.  It is contemptible.

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932 Comments

  1. Whoops, sorry, missed that request! Apologies.

  2. Off topic (the topic being our pet troll) –

    http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2012/10/09/theresa-may-speech-in-full

    Can’t say we weren’t warned, anyway. (you may need to locate the sick bag before reading the speech. Contains hypocrisy, double standards, inconsistency, manufactured on premises which certainly contain nuts))

  3. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:12 am

    Life Get’s Tedious, Don’t It? Well it does here sometimes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HlEdMg7d_o

    :)

    ~~~

  4. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version) 27 Jun, 2013 – 11:22 pm
    “I was joking about the Ensure”

    I did think you were joking mate and my response was also written with a smile. The nuance of humour is easily lost on the interweb.

  5. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:23 am

    Imagine how they feel. Shame on you Welby! Note the Yad Vashem visit. He had time in his schedule for that.

    Palestinian Christians missed out on archbishop of Canterbury’s tour
    Christian communities disappointed Justin Welby did not visit them during first trip to Holy Land since taking office

    Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem

    The Guardian, Thursday 27 June 2013 18.09 BST
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/palestinian-christians-acrchbishop-canterbury

    [Mod: fixed typo]

  6. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:34 am

    UK adds another drone to its arsenal

    By Chris Cole on 21/06/2013

    The UK Ministry of Defence confirmed that it has signed a £30 million deal with Boeing subsidiary Insitu for the ScanEagle drone.

    ScanEagle is an unarmed surveillance drone that is to be used in a maritime role by the Royal Navy. This latest contract makes the sixth type of unmanned drone that UK forces have in their arsenal with all three services – army, air force and navy – now operating unmanned drones.

    MoD minister Philip Dunne said that the “continued investment in intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance systems is essential to keeping our Armed Forces up-to-date with the latest capabilities.” However the ScanEagle is not being bought, rather it is being rented in a similar way that the UK is leasing the Israeli Hermes 450 drone for use in Afghanistan.

    The contact, which lasts up until 2015, is for a “contractor-owned contractor-operated service” with civilian contractors operating the ScanEagle from onboard ship.

    The ScanEagle is launched from catapult, has a range of around 100km and can stay aloft for up to 24 hours. Below is a video of ScanEagle in operation with the Dutch Navy

    /..
    http://dronewars.net/2013/06/21/uk-adds-another-drone-to-its-arsenal/

  7. Fedup 27 Jun, 2013 – 11:09 pm

    Thanks for the landdestroyer pussy riot link. I (am allegedly working so) read it quickly and the article seems to merely imply the loosest of possible connections between the collective and other, US funded, opposition elements. Hardly damning.

    I think they rock.

    Yes I do think it is wrong to lock up racists for not hiding their racism. If indeed that was your point. Not entirely sure.

  8. From Ms. May’s speech, thanks Komodo, its O/T
    “Taxes cut for people who do the right thing, go out to work, and earn a modest wage.”

    Modest wage seems to be the catch word here, not the going out to work.
    But this is the reality, companies that make millions in profits for the UK are stifled by George Osborne’s banker mates. This is a tragic story of success.

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/lowestoft_support_firm_s_sale_seals_growth_1_2253950

  9. Flaming June 28 Jun, 2013 – 9:34 am
    “…with civilian contractors operating the ScanEagle from onboard ship.”

    The return of privateering!

  10. Appreciate the ScanEagle link Mary – Keep it up!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=OM4ub4H2El4#at=15

  11. As you say Craig to single out a nation as Ghana is unpleastant and to be regarded as un trustworthy is stereotypicaly retarded yet we do suffer and are reminded daily of stereotypical thoughts and actions daily and occasionly are reminded how retarted we are.

    We are systamatical evolved so to deny some all forms cognitive bias towardas others may be unwise.

    To be sure of…..?presently trust no one including ones’ self use instincts, and try friendly face-ism. But presently everyone has enough reason to be unhappy.

    So as a rule try to help others who seem less fortunate.

  12. UK economic growth is clearly down at at a real 0.7%

    Clearly the poor are going to be hit harder as a continuation of the mass experiment in human despair, which this coalition government has cheated to describe as an economic policy. It is ideologically driven and we see economics of the madhouse. And it is done with the objective of affecting the transference of wealth from the poor to the rich under the pretext of an economic crisis – not reason, it’s a pre-text. The economic crisis which hit this country in 2007 was their economic 9/11.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/tag/uk-austerity

  13. @ Nevermind –

    “The final straw came when the bank that runs our account reduced our overdraft level just after we had posted a record annual profit of more than £1m.”

    And maybe it runs the Turner Group’s account too, and just maybe that deal had a little help. Sharks. Used to be they’d only lend you an umbrella when the sun was shining…now they don’t lend umbrellas at all.

  14. “Dreoilin The link to the nasty Tara McKelvey piece ref Edward Snowden just worked for me.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/#comment-415094

    “Mod: link fixed, thanks Dreoilin”

    Not sure who’s clicking on what now, Mary, but if it’s working that’s good.

  15. I think you are right Komodo, that was the preferred method of two of Germany’s largest car producers to get rid of the up and coming modern Borgward in the 1950’s, a very old trick.

    If a bank is approached by a large customer, who just happen to mention pulling out of said bank, unless soandso are not getting anymore credits, then the bank will think twice before ignoring such warning.

  16. UK economic growth is clearly down at at a real 0.7%

    The art (used advisedly) of economics is so open to interpretations, is it not?

    less than 1 percent growth used to be classed as a recession, alas at these times of economic depression (almighty and on going recession) less than one percent growth is considered an achievement that ought to be celebrated! Public services have been withdrawn, pensions are in the process of getting withdrawn, the social safety nets removed, whilst the interests to be paid on the monies borrowed to help the banksters to stay afloat regardless of the “moral hazard” complications, thereof.

    Socialism is good for the rich, and really, really, exceedingly bad for the poor, is the message getting pounded home day and night. The disconnected chancellor verily believes; the eating of a “ten pounds” hamburger is a sign of sacrificing the umpteen quids sitty down dinner, that ought to be celebrated by “we the people” for being so fortunate to have such a diligent chancellor at the helm. Alas poor dickhead, has little clue that “ten pounds” is the sum total of the money that is left for most of the poor to live on for the duration of a week.

    The current state of communication between the governed and the governors is akin to the dialogue of; deaf, dumb and blind, none can see, hear, or understand the plight of the poor, and the jobless who are not “lazy malingerers” but they have no jobs, because there are no jobs to get. 0.7 percent growth is made only possible because we the people are paying the interests on the loans that were borrowed on behalf of the we the people to give to the rich, so that they would not get to be poor, just like us poor, who have always been poor.

  17. Another O/T bit of good news; the guy who invented the business model subsequently honed to perfection by Trafigura & Xstrata croaked earlier this week-

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10144393/Marc-Rich.html

  18. Mrs May stood with an arm on Mrs Lawrence’s shoulder. Hypocrisy.

    and look at them all in April at a Memorial Service for her son who not lies in a grave in Jamaica away from the stench of Whitehall.

    http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Teresa+May+Memorial+Anniversary+Service+Stephen+g9vqJAqzcypx.jpg

  19. Don’t know what’s the matter with me today.

    ….who NOW lies in a grave…..

  20. It gets better by the minute:

    US Army blocks personnel’s access to Guardian’s website

    Freedom, Freedom, Freedom, hey:

    In an email to the Herald, Gordon Van Vleet, an Arizona-based spokesman for the Army Network Enterprise Technology Command (NETCOM), said that the U.S. Army is filtering “some access to press coverage and online content about the NSA leaks.”

    “We make every effort to balance the need to preserve information access with operational security,” Van Vleet wrote.

    “There are strict policies and directives in place regarding protecting and handling classified information,” he added.

    Snowden asked to brief Russian parliament on US espionage

    “We invite Edward Snowden to work with us and hope that as soon as he settles his legal status, he will collaborate with our working group and provide us with proof of US intelligence agencies’ access to the servers of Internet firms,” Russia’s Ria Novosti news agency quoted Senator Ruslan Gattarov as saying on Thursday.

    Dunchu just love the smell of Freedom in the morning?

  21. Agent Cameron resembles B.Liar more and more every day. SamCam is a deserted wife these days and he must see little of his children. When he is older, he will realize that he has missed out by giving his political career priority.

    If it’s Friday, it must be Brussels.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-to-push-for-cuts-to-eu-red-tape-at-brussels-summit-as-leaders-pledge-to-tackle-youth-unemployment-8677867.html

    Then it’s Kazakhstan. Take note P Andrew.

    David Cameron urged to raise human rights concerns on Kazakhstan trip
    Human Rights Watch says it is very concerned about deteriorating situation in oil-rich republic
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jun/28/david-cameron-human-rights-kazakhstan

    When he is finally given the order of the boot, what will life be like for him? Will anyone pay to hear him speak? Probably not. He will find cushy niches in the City if he does not have them already by proxy.

    Tempus fugit Dave!

    ~~~

    The Brooks/Coulson pair have failed in their appeal to have prosecutions dropped.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/28/rebekah-brooks-andy-coulson-phone-hacking

  22. Jon 9.27pm last night.

    No problem,your points noted..

    Im totally cool with the 3 deleted posts-i understand the reasons.

    I also note your advises inre: not rising to the bait-and bait it most surely is-I generally don’t but certain subjects,and the use of those subjects as point scoring,really touch a nerve hence my flare up.

    Apologies and normal service shall be resumed.

    Cheers.

  23. My family and friends in the Ukraine have never in 22 years been able to obtain UK visas. There are two ways it can be done – demonstrate that you have a pukka high-flying career or a large fortune or both in the Ukraine (reasons to go back), or demonstrate affluence by paying for a tourist holiday package that includes visa. Charging a large bond just streamlines the process (of discrimination) and makes it more efficient. Makes the process less corruptible, too.

  24. @ Jives.
    I’m going to ask J** to delete your post. Very bad for the reputation, and it makes a nonsense of all the cash I’ve paid the branding consultancy.

    “‘Komodo dragons are actually very clean animals.

    ‘After they are done feeding, they will spend 10 to 15 minutes lip-licking and rubbing their head in the leaves to clean their mouth.

    ‘The inside of their mouth is also kept extremely clean by the tongue.”

    I’ll never live it down.

  25. Flaming Jane @ 28 Jun, 2013 – 8:01 am re your comment – “Henry VIII Would Be a Modern Day Psychopath”

    An interesting comment and article. Though I don’t know if I would agree, or even if there is enough information to reach a conclusion. A long time ago I got to know an extraordinarily wealthy Iranian in the days of the Shah. I’ll never forget a conversation we had where he made the comment that the rich, and I am talking about the super-rich, shouldn’t pay taxes because they had so many responsibilities. His view was that taxes should be borne solely by peasants since they had nothing to worry about (presumable since they had nothing) and had a much easier life that the rich who had all their wealth to worry about. I thought he was joking, but he wasn’t. Certainly when the Iranian revolution came about, I understood the why of it, though not the form it took.

    Since then I have met a number of people who could be classified as super-rich and, particularly where their money was inherited, and where they are not particularly intelligent, they all share certain characteristics – arrogance, a disbelief in equality of law, a complete lack of ethics, a belief that the rest of us owe them a living and that rules don’t apply to them (and the rules don’t, since the super-rich never pay the same rates of taxes as the rest of us do). The truth is very simple – they are different. They have been flattered by “yes-men” and courtiers all their life, they have never had to earn anything (and wouldn’t know how), they are spoilt rotten. They come to believe that they are entitled to anything they want since everybody panders to their wishes, and that those who oppose them need to be punished. Of course the super-rich have learnt not to publicise these beliefs and indeed to hire spin doctors to present them as wonderful people, giving all the time to charity.

    Henry 8th was unique in that the murder of his wife’s was judicial and open; he is not the first super-rich man to murder his ladies, and he isn’t the last either. The super-rich never had a chance to be normal. By super-rich I don’t mean a few tens of millions – I mean billions. When they throw their weight around, like Henry 8th, they do enormous damage to society and democracy. This is a serious problem, particularly today, when the rich seem to be exercising more and more political power, particularly in partnership with the secret security services. The problem is not so much that they are born psychopaths, but that the money makes them act as if they had been born psychopaths. The first Dollar Billionaire, Andrew Carnegie, said that he who dies rich, dies disgraced – and he was right. It’s time that this was remedied by law and the super-rich taxed back into being just merely rich.

  26. Charging a large bond just streamlines the process (of discrimination) and makes it more efficient. Makes the process less corruptible, too.

    Evidently there is a misunderstanding here. The bond does not equate to an automatic granting of a visa! The bond is an addition to the current controls/restrictions over issuance of the visa.

    =======

    Komodo also your species seems to have cracked the Blood Thinners chemical make up too. Currently big Pharma is busy analyzing the saliva for its properties. Soon you may find replicas of yourself in a stuffed toy departments of the big stores, at this rate.

    ========

    Anyone heard about the South African whites beating a hasty retreat out of the Alamo? (fearing that death of Mandela will unleash a huge wave of violence)

  27. Khazakstan/Cameron…

    He was there last year too. What this link –

    http://www.eurodialogue.org/Kazakhstan-UK-Sign-Accord-on-Transit-to-Afghanstan

    doesn’t make very clear is that the agreement is to transit military kit OUT of Afghanistan as we leave. Other options include burning it, blowing it up, and leaving it for the Taliban to use in restoring the natural imbalance of the place.

    Interesting piece in the Guardian yesterday suggested that Afghanistan is in fact an Indian-Pakistan proxy war (Pashtun vs Tajik, etc) and nothing to do with us at all.A defensible p.o.v.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/26/nato-taliban-india-pakistan

  28. I have spent all week and not listened to any news.

    Just caught the 3pm news on Classic fm.

    Man jailed for raping pensioner, Brady is a nutter and something else….

    Now I know why I avoided the news.

  29. Soon you may find replicas of yourself in a stuffed toy departments of the big stores, at this rate.

    It’s about time someone did something about those bloody meerkats, anyway.

  30. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:09 pm

    Snowdens options are even more limited.

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/28/19175108-no-one-wants-this-fight-ecuadoreans-divided-over-snowden-asylum?lite

    “Public opinion in Ecuador runs hot and cold on whether the country should extend political asylum to Snowden. While some admire their president for trying to stick it to the United States, others fear economic fallout if Snowden settles in Ecuador.

    One Ecuadorean newspaper this week called the leaker a “hot potato,” while another labeled him “a spy.”

  31. Glenn Greenwald wrote a piece in The Grauniad the other day warning that the smear jobs would be coming at him…and sure enuff here’s the Daily Fail’s attempt…but great to see so many commentators wise to the action and mocking the smear and pathetic excuse for journalism.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350153/Journalist-helped-Edward-Snowden-expose-NSA-scandal-previously-sued-business-partner-running-Hairy-Jocks-porn-business.html

  32. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    ‘The inside of their mouth is also kept extremely clean by the tongue.”

    Whose? I think it’s important to know.

  33. Former 2nd highest US General James Cartwright under investigation over the Stuxnet leaks.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/general-cartwright-investigated-stuxnet-leak

  34. Passerby –
    Intriguing question re. SA whites, there.

    What seems to be going on is that barking neocons both in SA and the US are pumping up the hysteria, but the intention is obscure. This site may be more reliable than the NRA fundies who seem to be at the bottom of the stories, but I guarantee nothing:

    http://www.africacheck.org/reports/are-white-afrikaners-really-being-killed-like-flies/

  35. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:17 pm

    Jives; Just read that story. Equal treatment under the law must be the public relations message.

  36. Komodoettes very rarely insist on ‘no tongues’, Ben, and I pity you anthropoids whose lingual members are undivided.

    Smugly,
    K.

  37. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:25 pm

    Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression. Any protests likely?

    They are so on the defensive that they always have to crow.

    Israeli acts geared up for Glastonbury
    Marcus Dysch, June 27, 201
    Jewish Chronicle

    A collective, one of four Israeli acts playing at Glastonbury this weekend

    Four Israeli groups will perform at Glastonbury this weekend, becoming the first musical acts from the country to appear at the festival.

    A collective, Saz, Ester Rada and 3421 are due to play 10 separate gigs during the five-day event.

    Former JC reporter-turned-Brit-Award-nominee Jessie Ware will also be singing.

    She is due to appear on the John Peel Stage on Sunday afternoon. American-Jewish sister trio Haim are among the headline acts.

    Jeremy Hulsh, chief executive of Tel Aviv-based organisation Oleh! Records, helped arrange the deal for the Israeli acts to appear at the festival.

    He said: “Everyone is really excited. This is a huge first and it is great for the Israeli music scene to have an influence on Glastonbury.

    “The organisers have been really helpful and have given us so many stages to perform on.”

    The busiest Israeli act will be soul singer Ester Rada — she is due to perform on four different stages.

    As a warm-up for Glastonbury, all the groups played at the Tune In Tel Aviv concert in Islington, north London, this week.

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109030/israeli-acts-geared-glastonbury

  38. Flaming June,

    Yes indeed,with the notable exception of Mark Steel last night’s Question Time was full of nauseatingly acquiescent droids.

    Some of the camera shots of the audience reactions were definitely pre-planeed.The “noddy” choreography.Sickening and a total sham.

    Except Mark Steel the reaction over the Snowden and surveillance question was genuinely pathetic yet terrifying.

    These cowardly people are the type who would’ve thanked the SS guards who came to disappear them.

  39. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 3:36 pm

    @ Macky re. the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    ______________

    Towards the beginning of this thread you asserted that the UK’s proposed £3000 bond requirement for visitors from a certain number of countries was “contra” the provisions of the UN’s 1948 Universal Declaration of Human rights.

    I was rather puzzled by this claim of yours as it didn’t seem to correspond to my recollection of the Declaration’s provisions. My puzzlement was all the greater because Craig, who knows something about international law, hadn’t mentioned this aspect of the matter in his introductory post, or subsequently.

    As you seem reluctant, in your last post on the matter (28 Jine, 00h25) to provide the article(s) of the Declaration which the UK’s proposed action would be violating, I thought I’d assist you by re-reading the Declaration myself and reporting back.

    Well, you’ll be interested to hear that there is nothing in the text of the Declaration which would lend substance to your assertion.

    The Declaration lays down a long list of rights which states should make available, on a non-discrimatory basis, to their citizens and others present in their territory. There are no trans-national rights present in the Declaration and more specifically, no trans-national rights in respect of migration whether permanent or temporary (eg, visits for personal reasons, study, etc). For most of the rights mentioned in the Declaration there is no need to specify the purely teritorial application (eg, it is obvious that state A cannot guarantee the right to education in state B), but in the one case where there might be possible ambiguity – freedom of movement – the article in question (Art 13a)says :

    “Eeveryone has the right to freedom of movement and residence WITHIN THE BORDERS OF EACH STATE” (emphasis added).

    So, dear Macky, your assertion was incorrect. The UK’s proposed measures are not in violation of the Universal Declaration.
    _________

    As a sort of conclusion to this ‘discussion’ :

    To err is only human and therefore I don’t expect you to apologise or even to admit publicly that your assertion was incorrect. But I would suggest for the future thaat you should perhaps check more carefully the accuracy of what you intend to post on the blog. There are sufficient valid reasons for contesting the UK’s proposed measures without having to manufacture spurious ones.

  40. Jives -Former 2nd highest US General James Cartwright under investigation over the Stuxnet leaks.

    Just shooting the messenger, I think.

    This may be of interest:

    http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=5968088

    Congress seems to have no concerns whatever about the legality of Stuxnet, or its obviously provocative intention. What bothers them is that the US was found out.

  41. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 4:05 pm

    More on Marc Rich, aka Marcus Reich, who has died. OldMark put up a Torygraph link earlier.

    Weekend Edition June 28-30, 2013

    Fixers Indicated That Hillary Was a Key Player in the Marc Rich Pardon Deal
    The Clintons and the Rich Women

    by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/28/the-clintons-and-the-rich-women/

    Jeffery St Clair, the author is one of the Counterpunch co-editors.

  42. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 4:14 pm

    Planted ?????

    Whistleblower Snowden ‘May Return To The US’

    Edward Snowden’s father fears his son is being manipulated by others, including WikiLeaks, and may return under certain terms.

    2:14pm UK, Friday 28 June 2013

    Banner in support of Edward Snowden
    Edward Snowden is said to still be in the transit area of Moscow airport

    Edward Snowden’s father has said he is reasonably confident the whistleblower will return to the US if certain conditions are met.

    In an interview with NBC, Mr Snowden’s father also said he plans to make that point in a letter to US Attorney General Eric Holder later today.

    Those conditions could include not detaining Mr Snowden before trial, NBC reported.

    In the interview, Mr Snowden’s father also expressed fears his son is being manipulated by others, including WikiLeaks.

    /..
    http://news.sky.com/story/1109235/whistleblower-snowden-may-return-to-the-us

  43. Ben,

    “Equal treatment under the law must be the public relations message.”

    Indeed.Perish the thought equal treatment under the law was an actualite…

  44. There is astory in the Independent , about the stabbing of a young lad on his holidays in turkey. The comments section, is filled by the comments of an overtly racist thing, pouring its wit and hateful bile without any let or hinderance. This is the kind of incitement to racial hatred that is tolerated, in the name of “free speech”, and “freedom of expression”.

    Are you insane – have you got your eyes and ears wrapped in thick wool?

    Of course it is everything to do with MUSLIMS and their perverted backward stupid cretinous belief system – do your research and stop behaving like a Dhimmi!

    Idiots.

    #
    #
    Dhimmi cretin is what you are if you do not know that these “attacks” are ALL related to the islamo-fascist ideology of HATE!

    Go do the research – and stop being a Dhimmi
    #
    #
    Don’t listen to pelirrojo – either a Dhimmi cretin or a Islamo-fascist infiltrator sent to use deceptions to defend the evil of Islam
    #
    #
    They are all Muslims – they will not say so – but use deception and trickery to plough seeds of doubt and confusion – its all in the teachings of the Koran! …..
    #
    #
    …..English is a description of the ethnic group which inhabits England – and cannot be adopted as an identity for none white
    #
    #
    You don’t know what you are talking about – and if you do not know what our culture is and has always been, then you are not British and have no right to comment on OUR culture – do you understand?

    Note the among the labels: “dhimmi” that is getting used akin to a another racial slur “goy” and the connotations thereof. Whilst masquerading as an “Englishmen”.

    As we all know our run of the mill “bigoted thugs and morons” are hardly pressed to string three words together. To find a constant torrent of racial abuse post on the comments sections, that is even more horrific upon inspecting the profile of this bigot, it clearly points to a hasbara operative* bent on incitement to hatred and shouting down any opinion that is contrary to its perceived mission statement.

    Fact is why on Earth is the independent tolerating such an egregious hateful conduct, and would it have tolerated any such a nonsense if the words; “Muslim” were to be replaced by “Jew”, and “Islam” replaced with “Judaism”?

    * the hateful mongrel goes on record: “Islam is – it is the absolute negation of both Judaism and Christianity -” ergo the clean tracks of a hasbara warrior in full flow.

    ======

    Thanks Komodo for Africa Check link.

  45. Glastonbury before the total corporate takeover

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3gqy93jCK0

  46. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 4:27 pm

    June; He may have been in communication with his father, but I listened to the interview and he sounds mostly speculative. I think he’s negotiating with the Feds to pave a way for his son to surrender establishing terms kind of like a hostage negotiator.

  47. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:10 pm

  48. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:12 pm

    Thanks for that Ben Franklin. Could not understand the smear on Wikileaks. Just hope he doesn’t end up like Bradley Manning.

  49. Nice sly misrepresentation dear Clown, but what I actually wrote was;

    “to single out people from only certain countries is basic racial profiling, essentially inherent discrimination, and contra to the principle of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by when we voted for adoption of “The Universal Declaration” at the UN”

    Note the words “contra to the principle”, which means this can be interpreted as “contra to the spirit of universal human rights and freedoms, which is what we as a country agreed to abide by”, but which cannot be interpreted as “contra to the provisions of the UN’s 1948 Universal Declaration of Human rights; two complete & different things, as you well know.

    Quite a poor attempt really, surely you can do better stitch-ups !

    Anyhow I’m glad that my comment occupied some of your time & effort, in conducting your red-herring “research”, and I wonder if you came across the “Baiai Case”, which the Home Office lost at the Court of Appeal, being told that it needed to examine each application on its own merits rather than a wholesale approach which carries the real risk of unfairness and injustice, this was iro its requirement that all foreign nationals who were subject to immigration control, be compelled to obtain Home Office permission before marrying. I think if this Bond scheme ever gets implemented, it will go exactly the same way.

    Now how about a bit of reciprocation iro that KOWN Post ?

  50. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:16 pm

    @ Flaming June (16h05)

    “More on Marc Rich, aka Marcus Reich, who has died.”
    _______________

    Yes, he’s ‘aka Marcus Reich’ especially to those who find it relevant to remind people that he is/was Jewish.

  51. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:25 pm

    Russia Today have been showing this video of further beheadings of Assad supporters by the rebels yesterday. One of the victims was a Christian bishop. The beheadings were carried out in the sight of women and children.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ead_1372329728

  52. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:39 pm

    The Medialens editors have published this alert today.

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/alerts-2013/737-snowden-surveillance-and-the-secret-state.html

    Some responses.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1372431642.html

    ~~~

    Separately, Garton Ash on GCHQ and NSA. He can’t seem to make up his mind whether surveillance should be carried out by the state or by commercially interested companies. We are not a totalitarian state apparently.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/27/big-brother-public-private-partnership-nsa?commentpage=1

    His pathway
    Spectator>Independent>Guardian

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Garton_Ash

  53. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:40 pm

    @ Macky

    Just admit you messed up and stop being so daft.

    Your attempted justification amounts to saying that you can at the same time violate the principles of something but not violate the provisions which are there precisely to give concrete expression and effect to those principles.

    One a more concrete level, it also implies that immigration law and measures designed to ensure that that law is upheld effectively (which is what we’re talking about here) are against the principle or the “spirit” of human rights. In which case, by the way, every state on earth must be in violation of that principle or ‘spirit’, since there is no state which does not have its body of immigration law and measures designed to uphold that law.


  54. Flaming June
    28 Jun, 2013 – 3:25 pm
    Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression?”

    What a strange way of judging other human beings going out to have fun and enjoy themselves. Next they’ll have to pass exams to get tickets, while the Self-Righteous One fights at her keyboard saving all of humanity including us!

    Amazing!

  55. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:46 pm

    Post at 17h15

    “Russia Today have been showing this video of further beheadings of Assad supporters by the rebels yesterday.”
    ____________

    I wonder if the poster concerned believes everything put out by Russia Today.

    If ‘yes’, then my condolences. If ‘no’, what is the reason for believing this particular bit of news but not others?

    NB – Russia Today supports President Assad the Son, I’ve been told.

  56. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 5:52 pm

    @ Villager (17h41)

    “Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression?”
    ________________

    Quite agree that this is a somewhat bizarre post. If I didn’t know who posted it I’d say the poster was a little obsessional.

    The solution to making sure that the attendees do leave what I hope will be a very enjoyable festival in full knowledge of the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression would, I suggest, consist in the poster and as many good people as he or she can find going along to the venue armed with posters, megaphones and leaflets in sufficient number to meet the likely demand. No violence though, please, because the nasty police might crack open their skulls (it does happen, you know!)

  57. Flaming June,

    Garton-Ash has been bestest of buddies with the spooks for many a year.He does their bidding albeit a tad more subtly than some.

  58. Ignore it.You’d need an aqualung and for its 2nd last sentence anyway-whatever the garble means.

  59. Unionist propaganda frenzy is stepped up in Scotland as Daily Mail is given away in selected areas of the country with purchases of local-newspapers belonging to local-newspaper monopoly (and financially stricken) Johnston Press of ‘Scotsman’ infamy. Needless to say the free ‘Jockified’ edition of the Mail is packed with preposterous scaremongering concerning Independence and character assassination of Scottish National Party figures. The people aren’t buying it, literally.

    Passerby, I noted your post (4:19pm) on the Independent’s comments section which is externalised to the third-party shadowy outfit Disqus. Articles or comments bearing on Palestine, the Israheil conundrum or opportunities to demonise Muslims seemed to be hotlined to Hasbara Towers wherever Disqus is found, and rapid reaction, on-message comments abound.

  60. “Your attempted justification amounts to saying that you can at the same time violate the principles of something but not violate the provisions which are there precisely to give concrete expression and effect to those principles.”

    Of course you can ! Commonly known by the term “lip-service”, especially iro the Law, surely you’ve hear of it?! You can violate a principle you claim to believe in, oh, let’s say non-discrimination on race or religion, yet refuse to employ certain people on a variety of dishonest excuses.

    “since there is no state which does not have its body of immigration law and measures designed to uphold that law.”

    Law is based on all human beings have fundamental rights and freedoms, and EQUALITY in respect of the application of the Law; if an immigration policy uses blanket discrimination against certain groups but not others, then those certain groups are NOT be treated EQUALLY.

    All pretty basic stuff, especially for somebody of your self-acclaimed “intellectual fire-power” !!

  61. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:18 pm

    @ Jives

    “You’d need an aqualung and for its 2nd last sentence anyway”
    ____________

    Sound as if you need to exercise a little more, Jives. It’s very good for you and the Revolution, when it comes, will need people in top physical form.

  62. BOOM!

    Macky with a perfectly timed volley takes the point and eases home in a straight sets win.

  63. Is name-calling Clown in the spirit of what the moderator has has been propounding here?

    Be interesting to see how many people voice their observations. Note no rising to the bait by the “Troll” only robust debate.

    Wait till he comes up against Fred next time around.

    OBJECTIVITY IS GOOD, EVEN PARAMOUNT!

    NATURE IS A MARVEL DESPITE THE JUVENILES!

  64. Am back from Accra folks. Knackered, but home in Ramsgate.

  65. “Yes, he’s ‘aka Marcus Reich’ especially to those who find it relevant to remind people that he is/was Jewish.”

    … which does get very tiresome.
    Anyway, anyone who wanted to look up Wikipedia, would get chapter and verse on his background. It’s no secret.

  66. Let us know how your heel is, Craig?

  67. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:34 pm

    @ Macky

    “if an immigration policy uses blanket discrimination against certain groups but not others, then those certain groups are NOT be treated EQUALLY.”
    ______________

    In which case, Macky, you would presumably wish to abolish all visa requirements by all states on the grounds that some entrants are required to have a visa and others aren’t?

    You really don’t seem to be listening, do you. Never mind.

  68. Dreoilin,

    Awful! Thanks.

  69. Welcome home Craig.

    And now,for heaven’s sake,put yer feet up for a well deserved break!

  70. I’m sorry to hear that Craig. As Jives said, you probably need a good rest. I’m assuming you have a laptop (which I shouldn’t of course …) but the advantage is that it can be used with one’s feet up on the bed.

    Beannacht ort agus ar do chos!

  71. “Sound as if you need to exercise a little more, Jives. It’s very good for you and the Revolution, when it comes, will need people in top physical form.”

    LOFL! They say part of what makes jokes funny is the ring of truth! (Not a jibe at Jives, just saying)

    Btw Habby it wasn’t just the second sentence. He managed to make all his posts so convoluted as to render them completely unintelligible. I do wonder though why he’s wasting time here instead of taking it to litigation…..or at least starting a petition. One thing’s for sure, given my sharp detective skills, he’s definitely not a lawyer.

    As hard-hitting the new proposal is, it not against the law.

    IF YOU THINK ITS ONLY THE LAW THAT IS AN ASS, THINK AGAIN!

  72. “In which case, Macky, you would presumably wish to abolish all visa requirements by all states on the grounds that some entrants are required to have a visa and others aren’t?”

    How does that follow ?! I thought we were discussing a proposed discriminatory FINANCIAL obstacle to be selectively applied to some people but not others; rather different to the criteria used to decide normal visa requirements; the cash-bond is rather of a different nature & intent altogether !

    As you would say, you really don’t seem to following, do you. Never mind.

  73. technicolour

    28 Jun, 2013 - 6:59 pm

    Macky, Jives & Jon – thanks

  74. “In which case, Macky, you would presumably wish to abolish all visa requirements by all states on the grounds that some entrants are required to have a visa and others aren’t?”

    What a good idea. We could abolish visas and passports and things, abolish borders. The world could be one big happy family without all the us and them. Think of the money we would save. Just let people come and go as they wish, don’t see why not.

  75. Fred, finally a resounding sane rational insight. That in this weird world we live in would be called lateral.

  76. “Unionist propaganda frenzy is stepped up in Scotland as Daily Mail is given away in selected areas of the country with purchases of local-newspapers belonging to local-newspaper monopoly (and financially stricken) Johnston Press of ‘Scotsman’ infamy. Needless to say the free ‘Jockified’ edition of the Mail is packed with preposterous scaremongering concerning Independence and character assassination of Scottish National Party figures. The people aren’t buying it, literally.”

    I think the people have a right to be informed and the SNP is getting quite a reputation for just making it up as they go along.

    How do they stand on Europe this Week? How about NATO?

    They haven’t changed their minds about Trident have they?

  77. Well I must that little tag-team exchange has put the mockers on further debate for a time; numbed, stunned and in disbelief as we are, whilst the paradoxes, inconsistencies, sham arguments and tragically inept sarcasm rattle around and then sink without trace. Habbaduk erects a strawman attributing it to Macky, Villager collapses prostrate before it and Fred is summoned to try embellish it in his inimitable but woeful style, arriving after it has already been put to the flame and is blown to the four winds.

  78. Jon:

    “If you haven’t seen it, I have added some personal thoughts on moderation on the UN thread (if you wish to discuss, please do so there).”

    Maybe i’m misreading your suggestion, but are you actually (as in an action) there to ‘discuss’ on the other thread?

    Still not a peep on sock-puppets. In the spirit of anarchy, and of what Fred said earlier about freedom (what’s in a name?), i’d be very relaxed about people posting a chosen name on any single thread and commit no more continuity. That way there’ll be no way to allow for commenters to dig up useless history although there’ll be a lot more speculation of socks and gloves, suspect.

    Or is it that Sophie Habbercake/Kibo Noh/David are being ignored because of their support to Mary and being anti-Habbabkuk, which of course for all the racist calls here would just be another form of discrimination. My mind is dealing with some difficult questions relating to bias and objectivity, particularly at this gridlock of a crossroads the whole movement of the blog reached. I ask this fundamental question in the spirit of freedom, healthy skepticism and a need to understand how life works here. I hope you don’t mind my asking but thus far even an observation leave alone a comment from you has been rather mystifyingly conspicuous by its absence.

    I can sniff out smelly socks but i can’t read minds.

  79. “I can sniff out smelly socks but i can’t read minds.”

    Oh dear Villager, it sounds like you’ve been sniffing solvents rather than socks !!

  80. Cryptonym, self projection of your herd mentality, perhaps?

    My agreement is profoundly with Fred, someone we all know you long have a bias against. At least i can understand his English with crystal-clear-clarity (goes for Habby too) than your flowery prosaic attempts. And you’re still calling Habby names — get a move on if you respect this blog, and stop disgracing it and yourself.

  81. Not happy with corporate/government surveillance? Here’s a nice page presenting the alternatives to corporate software and services:

    http://prism-break.org/

    Personally, I completed the move to open source operating system (ubuntu) earlier this year. No more windows!

  82. “Villager collapses prostrate ”

    I collapse prostrate to Nature, my ‘God’ and this marvellous blue planet, Earth. Nature made all the races –its a colourful world. But man has made all the Nation-states and religions. They are all in the psychological structure of your head.

    Conspiracy theory?

  83. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:55 pm

    The BBC doing the backing up as per usual.

    ‘Several hundred people earlier took to the streets of Pretoria in protest against Mr Obama’s foreign policy.

    However, the BBC’s James Copnall in the city says Mr Obama does have wide support in South Africa.’

    Barack Obama in South Africa amid vigils for Mandela
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23094361

    ~~

    Welcome home Craig. You will be sorry to be back unless you have already been watching from afar. Shame about your heel.

  84. technicolour

    28 Jun, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    Villager: you are overdoing it on the ‘sock puppets’. Everyone else knows that ‘Sofia’ was a joke.

  85. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:00 pm

    James Copnall has been doing sterling work holding the fort in South Sudan!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/james-copnall

    His twitter advertises his new book. https://twitter.com/JamesCopnall

    A Poisonous Thorn in Our Hearts: Sudan and South Sudan’s Bitter and Incomplete Divorce – to be released

  86. “it sounds like you’ve been sniffing solvents”

    Santa Maria Novella’s Patchouli or Tabac Tuscana…..not for Little Big Mac plebs like you. Nevertheless thank you for your concerns about my state of being.

    Note: you are trying hard to bring down the standards of this blog — your contribution of juvenile pics helped bring it to rock-bottom. You may be a great student of history–i don’t know, of the past, but you need to grow a few inches taller into the present so can keep up with the pace of real intellects here and the fast moving world.

    And stop playing KoWn’s secretary.

  87. It’s no use Tech, Villager only get habby-clown jokes !

    ““The first man to fuck little Sophie
    Has just won the Kraft-Ebing Trophy,
    Plus ten thousand quid,
    Which, for what the chap did,
    Will be widely denounced as a low fee.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-3/#comment-414075

    “Ha ha ha Habbakuk

    Brilliant one! Touche! .”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-3/#comment-414079

  88. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:11 pm

    A welcome but rather unusual move from Erdogan in the light of his domestic problems.

    Erdogan to break Gaza’s sea, air blockade
    28/06/2013 – 09:27 AM

    GAZA, (PIC)– Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan is due to arrive to the Gaza strip on a navy ship which is to move to Gaza’s international Mediterranean waters, Turkish diplomatic source revealed.

    Alray news agency quoted a Turkish source as saying that Erdogan “would then board a helicopter to the landing pad of late president Arafat in Gaza’s Ansar security facility.”

    “Turkish PM will break Israel’s sea and air blockade on the Gaza Strip in honor of the Mavi Marmara flotilla nine passengers killed in an Israeli raid, as their hopes for a free Gaza outweighed Israeli apologies and compensation,” the source added.

    The diplomatic source stated that the 18-member Turkish delegation’s visit to Gaza came in line of the Turkish arrangements for Erdogan’s upcoming trip to the Gaza Strip.

    /..
    http://tinyurl.com/pcrfo9w

  89. “A welcome but rather unusual move from Erdogan in the light of his domestic problems.”

    Goodness ! A very bold, indeed brave move ! No wonder the actual date is not confirm, as I wouldn’t put it pass the Israelis to sabotage the trip, or even shoot his helicopter down; then we will see the ME really explode !

  90. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:23 pm

    Oh dear! I put this on the UN thread by mistake following Macky’s links. V droll.

    Reposting.

    Israel’s chief rabbis snub leader of Anglican Church
    Archbishop Justin Welby was to meet Rabbis Shlomo Amar and Yona Metzger during his visit to Israel, but between house arrest and a visit to Spain, he had to make do with Rabbinate officials.
    by Yair Ettinger

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-s-chief-rabbis-snub-leader-of-anglican-church.premium-1.532452

    Metzger anyway is under investigation.

    Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger questioned on suspicion of money laundering, bribery
    The chief rabbi is also suspected of theft and breach of trust; three others also also arrested in connection with the case.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-chief-rabbinate-official-questioned-on-suspicion-of-money-laundering-bribery.premium-1.531053

    Bad timing Justin.

  91. Obama and his Satanic trolls and sock puppets should watch this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PJ6r1j2SPQ

  92. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:32 pm

    @ Macky

    I’ll try one last time to take you through it slowly and then, if you still don’t understand, I think I’ll give it a rest. Feel free, of course, to have the last word (chronologically speaking).
    _______

    With specific reference to your latest post (18h58), we were actually discussing not the proposed instrument per se, and even less its financial aspect, but your contention that it contravened the provisions of the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights (or, as you then went on to say, the ‘spirit’ of that Declaration and/or the ‘principle’ of Human Rights). I attempted to show you that you were mistaken in both your basic assertion and your quasi-legal arguments thereafter.

    Can I remind you once again that

    – the Declaration mentions a great number of human rights but it does not mention the freedom to enter the territory of another state (for whatever purpose) as one of them. Where it does mention freedom of movement (Article 13), it does so in the following terms:
    “Everyone has the right of freedom of movement and residence WITHIN THE BORDERS OF EACH STATE” (emphasis added).

    – it is meaningless and misleading to then talk about a violation of the ‘principle’ (or the ‘spirit’) of human rights. The provisions of the Declaration are the ‘concretisation’, the written reflection, the translation into practice of that principle, and the fact that there are no provisions which identify the freedom to enter another state as a human right must be seen as evidence that the drafters of the Declaration did not see the freedom to enter another state as such a human right. You may of course say that they should have done, but that’s another matter.

    – specifically on your latest post, you say :

    “the cash-bond is rather of a different nature & intent altogether !” (to visa requirements).

    Yes, of course it is. A visa is an authorization which all nationals of certain states are required to obtain in order to be able to enter the UK for various purposes, usually for a temporary period. The proposed bond is intended to help ensure that the that the terms and conditions under which the visa has been granted are respected; it is therefore not an authorisation but a modality. It is ‘discriminatory’ to the extent that it will be required not of all nationals of all states whose citizens need a visa in order to enter the UK but only to all nationals of certain of those states. It is therefore no more ‘discriminatory’ than the visa regime itself, which imposes visa requirements on, say, Russian but not Swiss nationals. This is why I asked you if you also objected to the principle and practice of visas. And I would point out that no-one has so far claimed, either before the courts or on this blog, that visa requirements constitute a violation of human rights, either as laid down in the Declaration or even of the ‘principle’ or ‘spirit’ of human rights.

    I rest my case, except to repeat that while you may question whether the bond is the right instrument for achieving the propose sought (in terms of effectiveness, the hard cases to which it might give rise, etc etc) you cannot question it by claiming that it violates human rights.

  93. Flaming June

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:33 pm

    One last reference to Reich from the Telegraph obituary.

    “He made large donations to Israel — where he received several honorary awards, and where he will be buried.” Lovely man. He will join Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch – alias Robert Maxwell, on those sun drenched slopes above the Kidron Valley where Christ was buried.

    One can suppose that Reich’s loot helped to kill and maim some Palestinians, along with the expansion of ‘settlements’. It is an elemental struggle of good against terrible evil.

  94. doug scorgie

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:33 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    27 Jun, 2013 – 10:25 pm

    To Jon:

    “You misunderstand the thrust of my post on the “Oxford 5″, which was not to hint that some other posters were in favour of child abuse/rape but to draw attention to what might seem to be a certain one-sidedness in their concern about children – loud when it’s Muslim Afghan children accidently killed by an American drone but silence when it’s British kids deliberately misused and tortured by Muslims.”

    Are you obsessed with Muslims HB?

    You write above: “…Muslim Afghan children…”

    99% of Afghans are Muslim so why do you need to emphasise “Muslim” when you could have merely said Afghan children?

    “…accidently killed by an American drone…”?

    Could you describe a Jewish child (for example) being accidently killed by a Syrian drone?

    I think your mask is slipping HB.

    The majority of posters here I venture are wholeheartedly abhorred by child murder, torture and sex-abuse, whatever the religion, colour or creed of the abuser; a child is a child.

    A Muslim child abuser is as bad as a Christian or Jewish or Atheist child abuser.

    You seem incapable of seeing that this is the majority consensus among posters on this blog.

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:45 pm

    @ Fred (19h16)

    “What a good idea. We could abolish visas and passports and things, abolish borders. The world could be one big happy family without all the us and them. Think of the money we would save. Just let people come and go as they wish, don’t see why not.”
    ___________

    I think that might be something of a minority viewpoint, Fred, and not only in the UK. I shall consider it to have been an essay (and a rather successful one!) at humour. :)

  96. It seems like Edward Snowden’s situation has gone down rapidly since the bail skipper in the Ecuadorian Embassy became involved. Funny that.

  97. Macky ; Goodness ! A very bold, indeed brave move ! No wonder the actual date is not confirm, as I wouldn’t put it pass the Israelis to sabotage the trip, or even shoot his helicopter down then we will see the ME really explode
    !

    :shock:

    Someone call the Medic.

  98. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:54 pm

    From Flaming June, just now :

    “One last reference to Reich from the Telegraph obituary.

    “He made large donations to Israel — where he received several honorary awards, and where he will be buried.” Lovely man. He will join Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch – alias Robert Maxwell, on those sun drenched slopes above the Kidron Valley where Christ was buried.

    One can suppose that Reich’s loot helped to kill and maim some Palestinians, along with the expansion of ‘settlements’. It is an elemental struggle of good against terrible evil”
    ______________________

    ? ? ?

  99. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 9:58 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    “a child is a child.”
    __________

    Exactly the point I was trying to make, Doug.

  100. “Once the cry was, “No taxation without representation”. Today the cry must be, “No debt without consultation.””

    http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/06/secrets-and-lies/

  101. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:04 pm

    Czesc, The CE!

    May I ask you a technical question? How do you manage to get bold characters and italics into your text?
    I know there’s stuff under the Submit Comment button, but when I click on it nothing happens.

    (I ask with the aim of making the “visuality” , as Ben Franklin would probably put it, of my comments as striking and compelling as the thoughts and ideas that underpin them)

  102. “I think that might be something of a minority viewpoint, Fred, and not only in the UK. I shall consider it to have been an essay (and a rather successful one!) at humour. ”

    You may say I’m a dreamer.

    But I’m not the only one.

  103. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:13 pm

    @ Villager, The CE, etc…

    I think I might have come across a rabbi (he’s a Jew as well) with whom Mary might get on like a house on fire.

    He’s called Rabbi Dov Weiss and heads up a sect in New York which believes that Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel are abominations and fundamentally against everything Judaism stands for. He’s also quite tall and so if the two of them got together, neither could be accused of talking down to the other.

    You can see a lot of him on Youtube – well worth watching for a not so often heard take.

  104. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:15 pm

    Fred : I’m sure you’re not the only one, and it’s a noble dream.

  105. Extraordinary !!

    “It is ‘discriminatory’ to the extent that it will be required not of all nationals of all states whose citizens need a visa in order to enter the UK but only to all nationals of certain of those states.”

    &

    “you cannot question it by claiming that it violates human rights.”

    So you finally agree it’s discriminatory, but at the same time claim that discrimination does not violate human rights !!

    Not too hot on Human Rights are you !

    Would you think it inherently undignified & unjust to be branded as a “high risk” person purely because you have a British passport, and be required to have to provide a bond of 10,000 dollars if you wanted or needed to go to Canada, but not so for the people of France, Spain Eire, didn’t ?

    Re the principle behind the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the clue is in both its title, and in the preamble;

    “Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world”

  106. Czesc Habba!

    Just wrap the text with for Bold and for italics.

    and http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies

  107. Jives@ 4:25 pm

    Glastonbury how it was.

    http://internationaltimes.it/paradise-on-earth/

  108. “Someone call the Medic.”

    They did threaten to sink his ship last time he said he would go, I guess you must have missed that ! After all what’s yet another Turkish murder to the IDF ?

    Anyhow since you are here, perhaps you can help out somebody who shares the same view that I believe you yourself have articulated here before, namely that there is a predominately ‘anti-West narrative’ here on this Board.

    Somedays ago now KOWN posted the following;

    ““No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”

    However the person it was addressed to, keeps avoiding responding to it, despite often citing it as a main reason why he posts as he does here. Can you help him out ?

  109. Welcome home Craig!

    So sorry Ben but the CIA/NSA/TERRRRORISTS have an ‘FBI’ hand all the way up Lonnie Snowdon’s backside to operate the mouth.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/edward-snowdens-father-worried-sons-nsa-leak-confession/story?id=19364906#.Uc4AhctYo3g

    The love Lonnie holds for his son is about to be proven.

  110. TC, true but so was Kibo Noh? And now briefly ‘David’ who disappeared after one post? I’m only trying to establish if the earlier understanding of no sock-puppets has changed. Lets have clarity on the ground rules — so everyone can understand.

    You knew all along that Kibo was Sofia?

    When i broached the subject, why didn’t she own-up instead of continuing her deceit under both names?

    When she tripped why was she not apologetic, instead of being blasé ?

    Why did she continue to post the ‘Hasbara Troll Handbook’ libellously towards Habby? Why did she repost those extracts even after Jon had to delete them THREE times? Why wasn’t she a little contrite herself? Had she declared upfront that she was posting under two names egging Mary into the bunfight, despite your advice to Mary to stop calling Habby a troll?

    Why did you suddenly change your mind and turn anti-gabby as i perceive and continue to maintain that? In your usual objectivity have you weighed up the abuse that was showered on Habby including myself when he was seen to be picking up on Mary? And his consistently dignified response, often with a humorous edge? And over time he did change is tone at the worst calling the relentless random poster an Old Biddy.

    Are you concerned about the objectivity in the moderation of the blog and generally? Are you concerned about the tribalism that has precipitated here? Do you realise you fan that with easily fanned egos like Macky who are craving for appreciation and STILL to this moment calling the gentleman, whatever his views, Clown and Troll? (minus Habby rising to the bait.) He’s smarter than most and his shown flexibility of mind, by moving with the flow. Note he consistently ignored Sophie whose ‘jokes’ were so not funny but just childish ramblings in the end pure distraction from the issues at hand. But she still goes on with her favourite criticism of establishment narratives as if she just discovered e=mc square.

    Look forward to understanding what you’re really thinking and seeing if we can understand each other.

    With respect!

    PS And now Mary goes “Infiltration into Glastonbury. How many of those attending will have a clue about the Occupation, al Naqba and the ongoing oppression?” So Glastonbury-goers are going to have to sit the obsessive poster’s exam of politico-moral standards before enjoying their music. Quite what is going on here? Bizarre!

    Do i care what happens to this blog tomorrow? I give a damn — i’m not into attachment or sentimental and i don’t mind what happens. However i observe and live in awareness and call it as it is. I’m not overdoing anything but i do observe how others call it or are they playing their little insecure herd games. It s the same conflict all over the world.

    Finally, one thing that has been underdone is the moderation. Jon was missing for several weeks, all explained in the guise of ‘a light touch’. But even now our Resident News Junkie goes on and on and on throwing trivia in while Jon’s instruction are choose a subject and invite debate. Mary, debate? No why does she need to when she is allegedly the ‘heart and soul’ of the blog.

  111. “Fred : I’m sure you’re not the only one, and it’s a noble dream.”

    No, I’m not the only one.

    “In 1999, on National Poetry Day in the United Kingdom, the BBC announced that listeners had voted “Imagine” Britain’s favourite song lyric.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine_%28song%29

    Now what is it you were saying about minority viewpoints?

  112. Courtenay Barnett

    28 Jun, 2013 - 10:39 pm

    Craig,

    ” Theresa May appears quite deliberately to be singling out countries whose citizens are normally black or brown…”

    A direct link between colonialism/imperialism and an embrace of the prevailing racist “order”.

  113. “The temptation of Washington’s money easily overwhelms weak characters such as Tony Blair and David Cameron.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/06/28/washington-is-driving-the-world-to-the-final-war-paul-craig-roberts/

  114. NSA cipher dependent algorithms esp. Koken derivatives of Fibonacci may well lurk furtively in Edward Snowdon’s laptop.

    http://rt.com/op-edge/russia-snowden-affair-nsa-334/

    The Chinese will love the challenge…

  115. Dave Lawton. 9 26pm

    Thanks.

    Alicia Keys: “I have come here to see what I’m buying with my tax money”

    What a brilliantly eloquent short clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PJ6r1j2SPQ

    Now that is what I call weapons of mass destruction, not the Boston pressure-cooker device that could’nt even break the nearest windows on the Starbucks and Forum cafes.

    I hope I live to see those who instigated Cast Lead answer before the ICC.
    ……………………………..

    @Phil 8 24pm

    “No more windows!”

    Great list.

    I’d want to add Spideroak encrypted cloud data storage (probably not there because it isn’t quite 100% open source).
    It seems to be the best on offer and is easy to use with any OS and files can be shared easily.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpiderOak

    Ubuntu certainly my favourite OS to use but i’ve found Debian Linux good on an old laptop that can’t handle the size and complexity of Ubuntu. It’s quite minimalist, but it does everything it’s asked to and it doesn’t generate so much heat so the battery lasts longer.

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    28 Jun, 2013 – 5:46 pm

    “I wonder if the poster concerned believes everything put out by Russia Today.”

    Habbabkuk; Perhaps it was all staged with actors and tomato sauce.

    Or even; maybe it was Assad supporters killing freedom fighting rebels.

    Do you support arming the rebels in Syria HB?

  117. So let’s open our doors to everyone with no checks or balances and allow them to stay and use are NHS schools and other public services. Like it or not Ghana is one of the main countries for migrants not to return. Anyone who has flown to Ghana will tell you that flights from Ghana to the UK are crowded full to capacity. Flights from the UK to Ghana are empty we either have a credible immigration policy or we abandon it and let everyone in. London is full to bursting with some Boroughs having twice the population they are budgeted for. The NHS is snowed under and the police can’t cope. You can romanticize as much as you want about culture and diversity but when we are full we are full. Accra has a huge population and they would all love to come to the UK so is Delhi and other cities. The problem is they can’t all possibly fit on this small island unless we build shanty towns in the parks and pave over all the Green belt. Overstating is a crime and millions commit it every year. If people generally want to come I do feel incredibly sorry as 3000 is a lot of money but what alternates are being suggested here???

  118. Flaming June
    28 Jun, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    “A welcome but rather unusual move from Erdogan in the light of his domestic problems.”

    Yes, a rather unusual move but don’t be taken in by this report.

    Nothing will take place without the permission of the Israeli government.

    It is just a political circus event.

  119. @Villager. 10 37pm

    “Why did she repost those extracts even after Jon had to delete them THREE times?”

    Let’s be accurate. My first rambling “Hasbara Handbook” post was indeed zapped.

    I think it’s relevant to the dynamic of this blog. You can revise how it works on the “Work for the UN” thread where everything I subsequently posted remains for your delight.

    @Kibo. 26 June:

    8 30am

    8 53 am

    11 29am.

    Also more on this subject from Aidworker1. June 28th 8 47pm

    It describes the dark arts of “Digressing, Hypocratising and Antipathising.”

    And another from me on “Groooming”at 2 19am today.

    Good to see you follow my contributions so avidly, if inaccurately.
    I find mind-mapping a subject helps.

    I would still love to study a copy of advice to professionals.
    ………………..

    Re poor David, wtf are you on about?

  120. Snowden is a “rogue”, so says the NYP;

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/rogues_gallery_russia_coward_refuge_idPopKfnwWkjBMdqZX3EDK

    Not that I would encourage graffiti, but wouldn’t the name “Edward” written at the top of this be quite cool !

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1040214_10151298954839649_1611583628_o.jpg

  121. Is somebody (the CIA? Trowbridge himself?) impersonating Trowbridge?

    [Mod: those items have now gone]

  122. Steve I am with you on “..when we are full we are full” -sadly the answer is we are never full; that is I suspect in accordance with the ‘out of view’ immigration policy or ISP (immigration strategic plan). £3000 is not too steep for middle class newcomers from Africa. It fills the ‘black’ fund.

    Our government’s masters love the gold frankincense and mur, the inter-banking and exchange revenue. Strategic loyalty is also important to Westminster. The City of London is protected by obedience, useful even valuable come the revolution.

  123. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 12:25 am

    @ Macky

    “Would you think it inherently undignified & unjust to be branded as a “high risk” person purely because you have a British passport, and be required to have to provide a bond of 10,000 dollars if you wanted or needed to go to Canada, but not so for the people of France, Spain Eire, didn’t ?”
    _____________

    I might think it was unjust and undignified but I wouldn’t claim that my humans rights were being violated.

    ***********

    You would need a visa to visit Russia. A Cuban would not. Would you feel that this was discrimination that violated your human rights?

  124. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    28 Jun, 2013 – 9:58 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    “a child is a child.”

    “Exactly the point I was trying to make, Doug.”

    Not so HB the point you were trying to make was that certain posters here shout foul when a Muslim child is “accidently” killed by the US and remain silent when British kids are sexually abused by Muslims.

    You said to Jon:

    “You misunderstand the thrust of my post on the “Oxford 5″, which was not to hint that some other posters were in favour of child abuse/rape but to draw attention to what might seem to be a certain one-sidedness in their concern about children – loud when it’s Muslim Afghan children accidently killed by an American drone but silence when it’s British kids deliberately misused and tortured by Muslims.”

    Read again what I write below and answer ALL the points I raise.

    Are you obsessed with Muslims HB?

    You write above: “…Muslim Afghan children…”

    99% of Afghans are Muslim so why do you need to emphasise “Muslim” when you could have merely said Afghan children?

    “…accidently killed by an American drone…”?

    Could you describe a Jewish child (for example) being accidently killed by a Syrian drone?

    I think your mask is slipping HB.

    The majority of posters here I venture are wholeheartedly abhorred by child murder, torture and sex-abuse, whatever the religion, colour or creed of the abuser; a child is a child.

    A Muslim child abuser is as bad as a Christian or Jewish or Atheist child abuser.

    You seem incapable of seeing that this is the majority consensus among posters on this blog.

    Are you capable of answering the points above?

  125. The psychopathic war criminal lusts for more war, sounding off from Ramallah presumably. Perhaps he should see that video of more rebel butchery and beheading before feeding any more weapons into the mayhem.

    Ex-UK PM Blair threatens Syria, Iran amid calls for military action http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/06/28/311245/syria/

    Kerry is back out there stitching up his billion dollar ‘investment’ plan.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23081781 – another propaganda piece from Ms Knell.

  126. I just saw an excellent comment on this article.
    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/28/the-unbearable-shame-of-camerons-torah-government/

    DaveE
    June 28, 2013 – 2:29 pm

    I agree with Ian Livingston. Israel IS the most amazing state in the world. A “state” with no Constitution, no borders except as loosely defined by some psychopath racist religious freaks and an ancient fairy tale, no universal legal system, no universal rights, no justice and ZERO ethics or morality.

    A “state” created by purely religious and political powers that had NOTHING to do with the natural migration of people. A ‘state” created at the barrel of a gun by Western countries bribed, swindled, manipulated and blackmailed by Jews within those countries. A “state” founded purely on the basis of unbridled racism by “G_d’s Chosen People”.

    I mean, this is a “state” that makes the Mafia look like Mother Theresa. Ruled by “people” who revel in every organized crime racket you can think of and are proud of it. Pure criminality, pure evil and pure injustice, incarnate.

    I’d say that qualifies for the description of “amazing.”

  127. There is no mask Doug – it leaked.

  128. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 12:42 am

    “but America’s apparent inability to force its will on the issue.”

    That is most frustrating for an Imperialist, Mark. Although I harbor little sympathy for any criminal organization, it must be a marvel of narcissism to realists like the Russians.

    Dad Snowden? You can see the puppet strings? Surely he’s being emotionally manipulated, but I think I cannot judge a father who faces the spectre of never seeing his son again.

  129. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 12:44 am

    It’s most certainly not a Guy Fawkes mask.

  130. Hi Ben, yes “..a father who faces the spectre of never seeing his son again.” exactly the emotional tool the players will use to terrorize Edward/Lonnie. Hence my crudity…

  131. Thanks for sharing some racist anti-Semitic statements Flaming June.

    The mind truly boggle at what you define as excellent.

  132. “I might think it was unjust and undignified but I wouldn’t claim that my humans rights were being violated.”

    Like I said before, you’re not too hot on human rights; I guess you still don’t understand why the Sus laws were scrapped, or why we have the 2010 Labour’s Equality Act, which actually makes it illegal to do to UK nationals that what this money bond proposal will do to foreign visitors, namely enable wholesale discrimination.

    “You would need a visa to visit Russia. A Cuban would not. Would you feel that this was discrimination that violated your human rights?”

    I repeat, normal established visa controls are one thing, but this new concept of being automatically classed as a lawbreaking ““high risk” & financially impeded so as to dissuade & make it very difficult to visit Britain, not because of anything relating individually to yourself, but simply because of what nationality you are, is contrary to the notion of universal human rights & equality. Can you really not see this ? !

  133. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 1:19 am

    No hook for your bait, this time.

  134. Still, progress, or should I say enlightenment is being made; he has now admitted that the proposal is “discriminatory”, “unjust and undignified”, yet he still seeks to defend it !! How peculiar is that ?!

  135. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 1:34 am

    Jaysus Mark. It’s difficult to understand the level of that kind of evil. As cynical as I get, the lack of familiarity with naivete makes it difficult for me to recognize it. You are right. I think they are filling him with all kinds of scenarios, including charges against him. For what, you say? ‘Aiding and abetting’, unless you agree to become a confidential informant, that is.

    This is a pattern with these people.

  136. Macky,

    FFS! Go a tad easier on Habbabkuk and Villager will ya? Youre whipping those guys too easily and so much its almost pitiful to witness.

    It must be like shooting fish in a barrel for you.

    Why do they stay for the swatting you deliver them??

  137. Its hilarious really.

    Most Good Faith posters here come singularly yet it takes 5 or 6 of them to try but still fail epically in their well-funded mission.

    Cant stop laughing at their uselessness.

    :-)

  138. One can always tell when theyve taken a resounding beating.

    They pull a couple off the lesser-spotted subs off the bunch..

    Now,who was it who posted a link to Collective Narcissism the other day?

    ROFLMAO.

  139. Mark
    ‘The City of London is protected by obedience…’
    and I had always thought it was bought by cash …

  140. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:00 am

    ‘Hi Ben, yes “..a father who faces the spectre of never seeing his son again.” exactly the emotional tool the players will use to terrorize Edward/Lonnie. Hence my crudity…’

    Mark Many fathers in the ME did not see their sons (or daughters) again, nor the sons and daughters their fathers. Just as mothers and daughters have been lost to each other.

    Did you hear the British general saying that we should have talked to the Taliban ten years ago? Quite so. Wonder why B.Liar and Bush kept going. Silly question I know.

  141. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:11 am

    The CE ‘anti-Semitic’

    Not at all. I think you should check on what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians (semites) on a daily basis.

    Zionism in practice – Israel’s Daily Toll on Palestinian Life, Limb, Liberty and Property

    24 hours to 8am
    24 June 2013

    3 air raids – 2 attacks – 25 raids including home invasions – 1 beaten – 1 injured – 3 acts of agricultural/economic sabotage – 23 taken prisoner – 9 detained – 112 restrictions of movement

    /..
    http://www.sapienspromise.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2819

    The daily log
    http://www.sapienspromise.org/modules/news/

    There are 562 pages there going back to 2005, each page containing records of 5 days’ atrocities.

  142. Elizabeth Morley

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:16 am

    Habakkuk said ‘citizens of Israel can travel to the UK and indeed to any other EU member state without a visa because Israel is not on the EU’s “common visa list”’. But according to Mark Harper’s reply to Andrew Smith’s second question about Entry Clearance Visas, Israelis do need ECVs and “visit visas”.

    See:
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm130624/text/130624w0002.htm#1306253000034

    I WISH SOMEONE COULD CLARIFY THIS!

  143. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:19 am

    How wonderful for the Anwricans to be so universally loved that they encounter another no-go area.

    US travel warning over Egypt clashes
    President Muhammed Morsi’s opponents protest in Alexandria. Photo: 28 June 2013

    The US warns Americans not to travel to Egypt and has told non-emergency diplomatic staff to leave, as deadly clashes continued in the country.

    ~~~

    The boy Hague in the Yorkshire Post.

    William Hague: Putting Western values at heart of a networked world

    Published on the27 June
    2013
    08:45

    Email thisPrint this

    WE are immensely proud of our alliance with the United States, and what our two nations stand for and have achieved together. We remember Churchill and Roosevelt, and the triumph over Nazi tyranny. And we think of Thatcher and Reagan, when the fall of the Berlin Wall unleashed the 20th century’s single greatest advance in human freedom.

    Nevertheless we are living through an exceptionally turbulent and unpredictable period in world affairs, which may endure for decades to come.

    /..
    http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/debate/columnists/william-hague-putting-western-values-at-heart-of-a-networked-world-1-5799809

    So true William, in that second paragraph, while your lot are in charge. Sent any weapons to Syria lately?

  144. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:20 am

    Blast! How wonderful for the Americans…….

  145. It was me, Jives. But I guess you missed reading another link I posted on ‘Introspection Illusion’ that was subsequently drone-zapped. I thought it was rather instructive and relevant. You might have learned something.
    . . . .

    I think Habbabkuk has convincingly extricated the issue of ‘human rights’ from the topic of this particular immigration control. The word ‘right’ is itself highly debatable. Perhaps this is the nexus of this particular disagreement. You might have a human right to potable water but that doesn’t help you when you’re stuck in the desert without anything to drink. Reminds me of a man’s ‘right’ to have babies – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

    People here seem to be unaware that this problem (overstaying + demanding bonds) is an indirect result of global over-population. You can expect many more ‘unfair’ and discriminatory policies of your govt over the next few decades as increased demand for the good life impinges on your self-imposed moral obligation, and naturally limited capacity, to deliver it to people who want it.

    As far as principles vs laws goes, if the latter fails to meet the expectations of the former then the law needs to change. You can’t run a system on generalised principles alone given the myriad exceptions and dilemmic conflicts that abound within simplified ideals.

  146. “FFS! Go a tad easier on Habbabkuk and Villager will ya? Youre whipping those guys too easily and so much its almost pitiful to witness.”

    I know it’s a bit cruel, like mocking the afflicted, but they can have a respite for most of the weekend, as I’m off now to Paris, to see the one & only Boss !

  147. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:05 am

    @ Elizabeth Morley :

    That’s interesting, and I agree that it would be good to get some clarity in this. But I would point out that it’s not really directly relevant to the subject of this thread, which is about the bond scheme for visitors from 6 countries (I’m guessing that Craig just chucked it into his lead-in post mainly for polemical emphasis)

  148. @ Macky. 8 05am

    Ce que le flot dit aux rivages,
    Ce que le vent dit aux vieux monts,
    Ce que l’astre dit aux nuages,
    C’est le mot ineffable : Aimons !

    For once I won’t mess with someone else’s poem.

    Enjoy the break. You sure earned it.

  149. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 9:41 am

    @ JON (Mod)

    pls refer to the post by Trowbridge Ford at 09h38, thnx.

    [Mod: 4 items removed, thanks]

  150. Is ‘Trowbridge Ford’ at 9.38am yet another impersonation? The language is way over the top – and deplorable, in case I have to spell that out for anyone.

    [Mod: 4 items removed, thanks – yes, looks like an impersonator]

  151. “Sometimes I’m a black. Not everyone realizes blackness has to be conferred upon you again and again.”
    ― Laura Yes Yes, How to Seduce a White Boy in Ten Easy Steps

  152. “Transcripts released this week by the Irish Independent record conversations in 2008 between leading Irish bank executives, joking about how they had scammed billions of euros to bail out the now-defunct Anglo-Irish Bank.”

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/29/bank-j29.html

  153. @Dreoilin

    Is ‘Trowbridge Ford’ at 9.38am yet another impersonation? The language is way over the top…

    I agree. Trowbridge doesn’t talk like that. It feels like a crude parody of the mild paranoia that informs many of his posts. (Paranoia which may, of course, be entirely justified.)

  154. “Is ‘Trowbridge Ford’ at 9.38am yet another impersonation? The language is way over the top – and deplorable, in case I have to spell that out for anyone.”

    I didn’t see anything wrong with the posts last night.

    I just assumed that as they didn’t know what an ellipsis was they were probably only a child themselves.

  155. @Roderick Russell

    Just read your essay on psycopathy and the super-rich. I enjoyed it very much, thanks. It’s also true, is it not, that those born to positions of tremendous privilege and wealth are mandated by their own egos to believe that they are innately different in order to be able face themselves in the mirror each morning? To acknowledge the truth, namely that they drew one of the winning tickets in Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory Lottery would require them to confront some uncomfortable facts and hand out some of their loot. That’s a hell of a conjuring trick performed by the ego there. Prince Charles, for example, must know in his heart that he is a plonker, but still no doubt believes the preposterous opulence of his life is justified by his genealogy.

  156. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 11:25 am

    @ KoWN

    re last sentence : I wonder if it would be possible to be aware of the first thing while being unaware of the second. But, thank God, I’m not a shrink.

  157. Flaming June 29 Jun, 2013 – 7:00 am
    “Did you hear the British general saying that we should have talked to the Taliban ten years ago?”

    He also admitted the taliban will be back in control within months of the US withdrawal. Many of us were predicting that before the first american bomb dropped. What a murderous waste. What a discrace.

  158. Steve 28 Jun, 2013 – 11:22 pm
    “Overstating is a crime and millions commit it every year.”

    You won’t, not in a kerzillion years, find any overstating on this blog.

  159. @ Habbabkuk

    Does anyone know? Has there ever been an example in the history of the world of a king, prince, emperor, mogul, caliph or similar potentate renouncing his wealth and titles on the grounds that he was no different from anyone else and didn’t deserve the special treatment?

    OK The Buddha. Any others?

  160. “I agree. Trowbridge doesn’t talk like that.”

    KoWN, No, he doesn’t.
    Jon has got rid of those posts, thankfully.

  161. President of Uruguay:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/world/americas/after-years-in-solitary-an-austere-life-as-uruguays-president.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Villager: I’m thinking about it :) I do rather care about what happens to this blog.

  162. Something for the weekend:

    Are we all full of hot air, rationalising our lack of action by looking overseas and lecturing the like minded?

    I understand Craig’s experience and interests are international but maybe that is why we are here. But perhaps the international aspect divorces us from the drive to take action.

    I believe it given that the most effective way we can help the palestinians, the syrians, the sudanese et al is to change our country. Bring down the murderous establishment here who rain death around the globe. The establishment who despises us.

    Sooner or later observing crimes becomes voyeurism nomatter how much you cry foul. We complain that the majority of people are puppets of propaganda. Not us. We see through it. But what to do? Do I hope these puppets will stumble here, read my comment and experience epihany? Cause that ain’t gonna happen. We argue with trolls and preach to the converted. It make us feel better and deflates our outrage.

    I do wonder, if the likes of us are not prepared to discuss actions and act, then who?

    So, what do you think of Left Unity? I am no particular fan of Loach but considering the labour party is lost, is this the only game in town?

    http://leftunity.org/groups/

  163. doug scorgie

    29 Jun, 2013 - 1:58 pm

    The Venezuelan right-wing only accepts democracy if they win:

    “As part of ongoing attempts to prevent President Nicolas Maduro from consolidating his leadership in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, right-wing forces at home and abroad have reissued false claims that he was born in neighboring Colombia.”

    http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/9771

    You have to laugh really.

  164. @Phil. 1 09pm

    Good point.

    Chanllenging outworn narratives is vital too though.
    Don’t both our individual and collective actions arise out of our interpretations of reality?

    “Ideas and products and messages and behaviors spread like viruses do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point

    Plenty of food for thought here.

    Once the old narratives become objects of widespread scorn, no amount of orders from the top will hold the tide. Witness the implosion of the old Soviet Union. I’ve heard an old russian say he thought the cassette tape was a crucial new technology in the dismantling of the old memes. Look what we have to paly with now.

    Once a critical mass of people see the Emperors New Clothes it becomes impossible to impose the old fairy tales. Until that time the old order persists.

    We’ve all got families and friends. So do members of the uniformed protectors of the elites.

    Oliver Stone’s documentary “South of the Border” shows how, in Venezuela home grown democracy germinated and took root only after lower ranks in the army realised their allegiance to their families and nation came before allegiance to generals.

    The brilliant Irish documentary “Inside the Coup” focuses on the detail of the 2002 coup, and how spontaneous public mobilisation coupled with another army mutiny turned it around.

    It’s already happening among parts of our human family, so let’s take heart and persevere.

    Liberté, égalité, fraternité,…..time for tea!

  165. Not sure how many are aware of this site, which contains a wealth of info, interviews etc, exploring what’s going on in the world today:

    http://www.corbettreport.com/

    It’s really quite good at explaining geopolitics and economics in simple terms, and their whole archive is online.

    This interview for example explains Syria and currency wars without the “designed to confuse” complexity that we see elsewhere:

    http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-673-the-geneva-business-insider-with-david-l-smith/

  166. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 3:16 pm

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-snowden-20130629,0,7711506.story

    “”It is outrageous to try to delegitimize a state for receiving a petition for asylum,” Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa said in a speech in Ecuador.

    Correa contended that the news media at first welcomed Snowden’s leaks about secret U.S. programs to collect phone logs and Internet emails but later suggested the actions were treasonous.

    “What a joke!” the president said in a tweet. The media, he said, are “making everyone forget the terrible things that he denounced in front of the American people and the entire world.”

    Correa added that, for the asylum request to be processed and approved, Snowden first must find his way to the Ecuadorean Embassy in Moscow or to Ecuador. “We don’t know it’ll be resolved,” he said.”

    Ecuadoreans are split on whether to give Snowden asylum.

  167. @ KingofWelshNoir – Your quote “It’s also true, is it not, that those born to positions of tremendous privilege and wealth are mandated by their own egos to believe that they are innately different”

    Thanks for your comment. That’s true, and their egos will be fed by a stream of yes-men and courtiers. Any who contradict them will soon be out of the circle. The most extreme example of this need to feed their ego is a belief in arrant nonsense like the “divine right of kings”. Most of the inherited super-rich don’t go this far, but they still believe they are special.

    However I would disagree when you say “in order to be able face themselves in the mirror each morning?” Not for one moment do the super-rich ever feel a need to justify their wealth. They seldom associate with people who would contradict that view. They will find a way to justify almost anything they want to do. And if it’s illegal, MI5/MI6 will ensure that it remains confidential. There are few who have the honesty of Andrew Carnegie in this matter, but a lot who, as my wife puts it, are “ignorant and arrogant”.

  168. Just been watching BA’s live talk in Soweto on BBC24. All the questions from the audience were soft, until a young man asked a question on US foreign policy.
    Unfortunately, the coverage then stopped.
    Probably just a coincidence.

  169. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:23 pm

    Just a word of thanks to Craig. No ads. No pop-ups. It’s really annoying to visit sites who are rife with merchandise or services to hawk. A tip o’ the hat to you old boy.

  170. Kibo Noh 29 Jun, 2013 – 2:28 pm
    “Don’t both our individual and collective actions arise out of our interpretations of reality?”

    Yes but I do worry that we become a group talking to each other but never leaving the room.

  171. Thanks for Big Brother’s take in the LAT, BF, very instructive. Domestic US propaganda consistently tries to twist Snowden’s case into a bilateral foreign policy issue. The US government needs foreign devils and enemies within. But Snowden’s case has started the wheels of an international process that the US is desperate to derail.

    Russia has consistently maintained that action wrt Snowden should be under the purview of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. This opens the door for Snowden to get laissez-passer under the 1951 refugee convention, and Snowden’s got a good case as a person in fear of persecution and torture for his opinions. Non-refoulement protects Snowden from being returned to a state known to torture rights defenders, e.g Bradley Manning. Espionage charges are classic persecution tactics used by police states fighting for impunity.

    As a rights defender (acting to promote freedom-of-information and privacy rights of the ICCPR and UDHR,) Snowden is in the remit of the special rapporteur on rights defenders, and subject to corresponding protective initiatives of the EU, the OAS, and international NGOs, incl.:

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/CommentarytotheDeclarationonHumanRightsDefenders.aspx

    http://www.ohchr.org/en/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/SRHRDefendersIndex.aspx

    http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Defenders/CommentarytoDeclarationondefendersJuly2011.pdf

    The established principle is, a state cannot prosecute a person for defending human rights. Viewing Snowden as a rights defender short-circuits all the HERO! TRAITOR! HERO!! TRAITOR!! nonsense. The point is not Snowden’s virtues or US interests, but the importance of defending the human rights of privacy and freedom of information.

  172. Herbie 29 Jun, 2013 – 3:12 pm

    “Not sure how many are aware of this site, which contains a wealth of info, interviews etc, exploring what’s going on in the world today: “

    http://www.corbettreport.com/

    Yes, I’m a fan of James Corbett too. For those who have FreeSat or Sky TV, you can enjoy the novelty of watching truth coming out of your telly by watching the Corbett Report on Channel 191, or +1 hour later on channel 193. Paradigmshift TV rents air time on that channel and regularly puts out good stuff. They change their schedule often so it’s best to check times on their website here …
    http://paradigmshift.tv/pstv/default/about
    … but, for example, tonight it’s on at 7.00pm followed at 8.00pm by UK Column News (not everyone’s cup of tea but they keep a beady eye on Common Purpose’s shenanigans, and the Media Trust, and other dark subjects) followed by Deek Jackson on FKN Newz.

  173. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:40 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie (13h58)

    “As part of ongoing attempts to prevent President Nicolas Maduro from consolidating his leadership in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, right-wing forces at home and abroad have reissued false claims that he was born in neighboring Colombia.”
    _______________

    Absolutely terrible, dastardly and heinous! These dark, satanic forces must be stopped. What next – will they try to assassinate him with a feather duster?

    Venceremos!

  174. Herbie 29 Jun, 2013 – 3:12 pm
    “This interview for example explains [Syria and] currency wars”

    Interesting stuff. Buy the effing dip. If you’ve got the cash that is.

    Such doomsday mearchants who predict the demise of fiat currencies are very convincing but their predictions seem to not come true. There’s no propaganda like financial propaganda. Perhaps the ineviatable collapse will happen tomorrow.

  175. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:45 pm

    Cog; My scribbling doesn’t rise to the level of your suggestions.

    I don’t know why there isn’t more talk of UN involvement. Section 10 approaches the derogations of such policy and I wonder. Do they mean ‘emergency’ in the sense of Syria or NK?

    Using sanctions against the US for failing to meet the International standards agreed upon., (US signed on amirite) looks like just the ticket. Veto, for sure, but the international scene is right up Obama’s ass and he would take the heat with some anxiety.

    Good show.

  176. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 4:54 pm

    waving off the gnat…….http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/ecuador-us-trade-pact-edward-snowden

    “The waiving of preferential trade rights followed threats from members of the US congress to drop the ATPA in July, when it is due for renewal, unless Ecuador toed the line on Snowden.

    “Ecuador does not accept pressure or threats from anyone, nor does it trade with principles or submit them to mercantile interests, however important those may be,” said Fernando Alvarado, the communications secretary.

    “Ecuador gives up, unilaterally and irrevocably, the said customs benefits.”
    The announcement will enhance President Correa’s reputation as a bold leader unafraid to defy the US, just like the late Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez.”

    I think the Guardian deserves some credit for sticking to the story.

  177. The interviewee from Herbie’s Corbett video discusses the possibility of cyprus like bail-ins throughout the world. He says the banks are going to steal your money during a coming bank holiday.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7DWr20KiB0&list=UUdWfm3zOoZUrf5X4TLd4CPA&index=8

    And it appears the laws to do this are being enacted right now. Of course in the world of financial propaganda it is presented as a good thing for tax payers (no more bail outs).

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jun/27/eu-agrees-banks-bail-in-deal

  178. “Such doomsday merchants who predict the demise of fiat currencies are very convincing but their predictions seem to not come true.”

    Fiat currencies are always demising. The point is that they’re a very poor store of value because bankers insist on continually devaluing them, to their own profit.

    The current currency wars, after the bubbles and pops, will be a speeded up version of this process laying waste the wealth of anyone who has it stored in fiat currency.

    Despite the small passing presence of Icke and Alex Jones, this is quite good too:

    http://financearmageddon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-fall-of-dollar-death-of-fiat.html

  179. This site contains some excellent free documentaries, exploring why things happen the way they do:

    http://metanoia-films.org/films/

  180. “This report outlines 35 cases where Ministerial claims using statistics on the subject of Work and Benefits have fallen short of the standards expected of Government Ministers.

    We believe that this demonstrates a consistent pattern of abuse of official statistics by Ministers of the present Government to paint a false picture of benefit claimants in the UK in support of policies which are aimed at cost cutting to the detriment of jobless, sick and disabled people.

    Within this document, each case is presented, and fully referenced to source material throughout.”

    http://de.scribd.com/doc/149776210/DPAC-Report-on-DWP-Abuse-of-Statistics-Final-22-June-2013

  181. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 5:59 pm

    This is the video of beheadings that I posted yesterday with some commentary. Nothing about it in the corporate media. It is obviously not worthy of mention and is a completely normal happening in their minds. I could not watch it through but I am told that the headless bodies are shown still moving and then the heads are finally displayed on poles. Women and children were witness to it.
    http://rt.com/news/syria-beheadings-video-assad-401/

    I am sending it to my MP, who is a Conservative, with a plea to Cameron not to supply further arms or weaponry to the rebels.

    There is just one show of sanity in the HoC from John Baron who, with a group of fellow MPs, is requesting a debate and will attempt to remove Cameron’s power to take any further action in the long recess which Cameron has reserved.

    John Baron’s recent activity in the HoC. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/search/?pid=10715&pop=1

    Written Answers — Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs: Syria (24 June 2013)
    John Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what definition his Department uses for an extremist when allocating military and non-military aid in Syria.

    Written Answers — Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs: Syria (24 June 2013)
    John Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of the total number of (a) people and (b) people described by his Department as extremists fighting in Syria against government forces.

    Oral Answers to Questions — Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Geneva Conference on Syria (18 June 2013)
    John Baron: What his policy is on the possible inclusion of Iran as a participant in the forthcoming Geneva conference on Syria.

    Oral Answers to Questions — Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Geneva Conference on Syria (18 June 2013)
    John Baron: Politicians should leave no stone unturned in the pursuit of a diplomatic solution. Does the Foreign Secretary therefore understand widespread concern that we are not giving diplomacy the best chance if Iran, a key player in the region, is excluded? Will he do what he can to encourage its inclusion?

  182. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 6:13 pm

    Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.

    Venceremos. Long live Maduro, Correa and any other South American democratically elected leader who stands up to the evil Empire.

    Obama was speaking in Soweto and regaling the rather unresponsive youngsters with a reminder of Mandela’s 27 year long imprisonment. He told them to face the sun and to keep their feet going forward. What tripe. More of his empty rhetoric.

    He did not mention his prisoners in Guantanamo or Bradley Manning or the current pursuit or Edward Snowden or the over 300 extra judicial killings by Hellfire missiles from drones that have occurred under his watch.

    Weekend Edition June 28-30, 2013
    Power Over People
    Treason

    by ROB URIE

    U.S. military adventures have historically combined imperial ambition—the acquisition of territory and colonies, limiting the reach of competing empires and ‘acquiring’ economic resources—‘natural’ resources, existing economic infrastructure and labor, under advantageous terms. The U.S. orchestrated coup in Honduras was for United Fruit, in Chile for ITT, Kennecott and Anaconda Copper and the CIA’s ‘war of attrition’ against Nicaragua in the 1980s to undo the nationalization of Coca Cola facilities. The botched war on and occupation of Iraq was a continuation of imperial designs on Middle Eastern oil by the U.S. and Britain dating from the early twentieth century. All of these and many, many more conflated the economic interests of particular U.S. ‘based’ corporations with the ‘national interest.’

    /..
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/28/treason/

  183. Flaming June

    29 Jun, 2013 - 6:50 pm

    Corroboration from the Vatican.

    VATICAN CITY (Catholic Online) – The Vatican is confirming the death by beheading of Franciscan Father, Francois Murad, who was martyred by Syrian jihadists on June 23.

    Below is the news release from the Vatican, via news.va.

    On Sunday, June 23 the Syrian priest François Murad was killed in Gassanieh, in northern Syria, in the convent of the Custody of the Holy Land where he had taken refuge. This is confirmed by a statement of the Custos of the Holy Land sent to Fides Agency. The circumstances of the death are not fully understood. According to local sources, the monastery where Fr. Murad was staying was attacked by militants linked to the jihadi group Jabhat al-Nusra.

    /..

    http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=51537

  184. ‘But thank God, I’m not a shrink.’

    I am a paid troll, but thank God, I’m not a shrink.

  185. Phil 4 28pm

    “I do worry that we become a group talking to each other but never leaving the room.”

    Point taken.

    I still think the conversation is worth having even if we were all stuck in a room.

    Craig’s blog is like an effectively open source, attention grabbing info bazaar.

    Here any info or narrative can be examined , tested to destruction, (witness the Macky/Habba exchange earlier) and taken aboard or left on the shelf.

    Craig’s postings deserve to, and do, attract a good number of thinking, sentient people because what he’s writing fits with the state of the world as they experience it.

    Crowds are drifting away from the corporate media to read stuff life that. Mandated narratives creak with the strain.

    That can only be good. The more people are informed about what is so, the greater society’s chance to course correct with myriad individual and group actions on all the different stages life has rolled out for us.

    Then there’s the blog’s Comments Section, populated with a shiftng and wondrous ecology of entities, some with interesting info or observations to add to the pot, others with weird and wonderful patterns of behaviour to guide us towards or away from issues whose narratives they judge worthy of discussion or not. You couldn’t make some of what goes on in here up, could you?

    I’m sure there’s plenty of leakage into conversations out in society.

    ……..

    Finally some graffiti I saw in a European capital not so long ago:

    “THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SOCIETY. Margaret Thatcher 1979
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THATCHER. 2013”

    Another paradigm in bits.

    Yes, the times they sure are a changing!

  186. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 7:40 pm

    @ Jon (Moderator)

    I’m astounded, Jon, that you should have deleted my post of earlier on because in it I was attempting, in the stye of a frequent and most respected fellow-commenter on this blog, to give out some very valuable, relevant and not very-well- known information about a couple of public personalities.

  187. “I am a paid troll, but thank God, I’m not a shrink.”

    Guano, you can be very irritating. In the first place, you don’t actually know for sure who is a troll and who isn’t. You can only assume. And to announce that they are also “paid”, is just another unfounded assumption.

  188. BrianFujisan

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:32 pm

    @ Ben 4 ; 54 pm

    Here’s another Beautiful Slap down of the Hypocrites on Eucador’s Stance Re Snowden
    Sublime indeed

    “DON’T COME LECTURING US ABOUT LIBERTY. YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK. Don’t act like a spoiled rude child. Here you will only find dignity and sovereignty. Here we haven’t invaded anyone. Here we don’t torture like in Guantanamo. Here we don’t have drones killing alleged terrorist without any due trial, killing also the women and children of those supposed terrorists. So don’t come lecturing us about life, law, dignity, or liberty. You don’t have the moral right to do so.”

    Rafael Correa, President of Ecuador, on the US Government.

  189. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:50 pm

    “Doug Scorgie. 1.58pm Radonski Caprile is a bad loser.”
    _____________

    Thank you for reminding us that the full name of the losing candidate in the recent Presidential election in Venezuela is “Radonski Caprile”.

    Well, except that it’s actually CaprileS (father’s surname) Radonski (mother’s surname).

    Given the attachment some commenters have to giving Mr Capriles his full name,I am somewhat surprised that they have never referred to the winner, commonly known as Mr Nicolas Maduro, as Mr Nicolas Maduro Moros. Could it be that the part-surname “Radonski” is of particular significance for them?

  190. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 8:54 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    Oh, you should really show a little more tolerance towards the object of your irritation. After all, it’s not every commenter on this blog who can be said to post himself :)

  191. @Habba.8 54pm

    Two targets with one shot!

    However do you manage it?

    Maybe I should accept all that you peddle after all.

  192. “Oh, you should really show a little more tolerance towards the object of your irritation.”

    Hmmmmmm … I should probably show more tolerance all round. But the fact is, I’m tired.

    (I do wonder sometimes how many folk come online when they’re tired and then take out their tetchiness on others. I really do.)

  193. @Dreoilin. 9 29pm

    No one’s perfect………………………except, of course, me!

  194. For anyone new to the comments section, there’s a great dialog going on on the “Work for the UN” thread…………on how to contribute to and moderate said comments thread.

    All the fun of the circus, plus plenty to consider.

    Here’s a sample.

    @Passerby. 11 03PM

    Eloquent and relevant common sense. A good read too.

    I won’t repeat all but here’s a flavour:

    “A time comes when silence is betrayal…….”

    “Those wishing to change the current arrangements of this blog, perhaps ought to learn to scroll passed the comments these find offensive, and challenging to their sensibilities, instead of attempting to change the blog as per their liking. Simply put this blog is not their sitting room to be arranged and rearranged as per their preferences, reflecting their individuality.”

    “Hats off to Craig for providing this little speakers corner in the cyberspace.”

    And from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

    @Jon. 12 51pm

    I’ve had enough of copying and posting. Read full post yourself.
    Then you can give out to me if I was wasting your time.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-6/#comments

  195. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 9:56 pm

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/29/19206445-vp-biden-discussed-snowden-with-ecuadors-president-white-house-says?lite

    “The call between Biden and Correa – the highest-level exchange reported between the U.S. and Ecuador since Snowden’s June 24 plea for asylum – came just two days after President Barack Obama said he was “not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker” and should not have to speak personally with the leaders of Russia and China to return Snowden to the U.S.
    Obama pledged not to engage in “wheeling and dealing and trading and a whole host of other issues, simply to get a guy extradited so he can face the justice system here in the United States.””

    Obama says he’s not gonna send Jets to get Snowden; he didn’t say anything about mercenaries.

  196. Kibo Noh 29 Jun, 2013 – 7:21 pm
    “I still think the conversation is worth having.”

    Which of course it is. In fact, sorry for my somewhat sanctimonious comment. Upon reflection I was only hectoring myself.

  197. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jun, 2013 - 10:16 pm

    Kibo @ 9:54

    Thanks for that. I have been remiss in inserting red-hot pokers into mine eyes.

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