Wreck of the Emma

by craig on June 14, 2013 6:55 pm in Uncategorized

Some of the information that gets volunteered from readers of my blog for use in my Sikunder Burnes book has been quite extraordinary.  So, with continued hope and gratitude, let me try this one – can anyone discover anything more about the wreck of the ship Emma in 1821 en route to India – and particularly if there were fatalities?  Was it a private or East India company ship?  All I can find so far online is this database, which has a British ship Sarah going down in Table Bay South Africa in a storm in 1821.  That would make sense en route to India.  At 467 tons its around the right size.

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106 Comments

  1. There’s a mention on page 409 of The Asiatic Journal and Monthly Miscellany, Volume 11.
    “The Emma, Baumgardt, from London for Bengal, – Indian packet bound for Batavia, and Dorah, of Bengal, were totally lost in the hurricane, in Table Bay, the 4th of January.

  2. Hmm, Lloyds List has an “Emma” lost in Table Bay on 16th March. All crew saved.

    https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/lloydslist/results.aspx?p=&s=&l=&n=&sd=01%2f01%2f1821&ed=31%2f12%2f1821&o=0

  3. This kind of research can become a bit obsessive. There is a reference on page 52 of this Cape Town environmental assessment document:
    http://www.oceandocs.org/bitstream/1834/391/1/Marine%2520Archaeology%2520Assessment.pdf

  4. Lloyds register for 1920 has quite a few Emmas none of them 467 tons. There is a 460 and a 463 ton both built in India, one sailing between Liverpool and Calcutta and the other between London and the South Seas.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wyYSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

  5. The 463 ton is still there on the 1822 register, the 460 ton isn’t.

  6. Kempe

    I don’t seem able to open that link. 16 March must be the date of the report, not the date of the sinking, because Alexander Burnes was writing about it in March 1821 in London.
    Ann

    do you have a link for that Asiatic Journal entry – assuming you don’t have the paper copy!

  7. OK Ann, thanks, got it. Seems remarkable a ship could be lost in a hurricane and no casualties.

  8. Murray,

    Come on man – let me hear you on this contemporary issue – the Mau Mau case and the award just won.

    Of some significance – isn’t it? Yourself a historian?

    Courtenay

  9. My passion and interest is in the “Zong”. A case I sjall explain to you if we get momentum.

    Cheers,
    CB

  10. O/T

    My passion and interest is in the “Zong”.

    Is this what you mean?

    … lives of seven white men and sixty African slaves ….

  11. Flaming June

    15 Jun, 2013 - 7:00 am

    A tale of greed, secrecy and hypocrisy. with collusion from HMG and Gideon.

    Revealed: Prince Charles’s secret property deals – including a £38 million industrial carbuncle
    Exclusive: Duchy estate bought Milton Keynes supermarket depot despite his famously forthright views on preserving traditional architecture and countryside

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-prince-charless-secret-property-deals–including-a-38-million-industrial-carbuncle-8659596.html

  12. I heard a temporary breakdown of propaganda on radio five this morning. There had been endless snippets about how cameron was leading the fight against tax havens before an interview with representatives from Jersey and Anguilla (possibly ministers?). The Jersey man blathered the normal rubbish, “we are committed to the UK governments efforts etc” on and on.

    The Anguilla fella was another unexpected stroy. He said that the finacial sector in Anguilla was controlled from London. The Abguilla people did not benefit from the financial sector. The financial sector benefits empire. The financial sector in Anguilla was corrupt. The people appointed by London are corrupt and lie. He had given cameron a dossier detailing the corruption and lies in 2010 but nothing has happened. The biggest tax haven in the world was the city of london.

    The idiotic presenter eventually interupted. The man from jersey was invited to further celebrate the transparency of the financial sector. Then more black adder clips and an interview with an honours recipient dying from cancer. Very brave. Everyone agreed. Normal service resumed.

    I guess we won’t be seeing the man from Anguilla on the bbc again.

  13. “I heard a temporary breakdown of propaganda on radio five this morning.”

    Great story.
    The subject matter is not funny – but the story is.

  14. photo

    Police starting to arrive in Belfast city centre for #g8 protest march

    https://twitter.com/magicbathtub/status/345831476853633024/photo/1

  15. Here Phil. I clicked along the player and found three segments.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02x9v8h

    One segment @ 1hr 06mins in ref Isle of Man

    another @ 1hr 37mins in ref Danny Alexander!

    and finally @ 2hrs 6mins in on came Ian Gorst Chief Minister of Jersey and Hubert Hughes Chief Minister of Anguilla.

    The programme is excruciating. Audio equivalent of moving wallpaper. As you say, bits of propaganda mixed in with sport, ‘news’ and trivia.

    Hubert Hughes wants out of out of the relics of our evil empire.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Hughes

  16. To go back to the Point, there is a reference to the “Government Armed Ship (GAS)” Emma in Cape records apparently taking part in the capture of Mauritius. I would guess that “GAS” would mean that it was a private ship leased short term for Govt. purposes but not part of the Royal Navy.

  17. Sorry, to return ot.

    @FlamingJune
    That’s a surprisingly brief wiki for Mr Hughes. Led me to the entry for the current London appointed governer William Alistair Harrison cmg cvo – an apparently stereotypical oxbridge career scumbag diplomat for empire who “enjoys opera, skiing, sailing, tennis, bridge, golf and running wog countries.”

    I might have elaborated upon his entry for clarity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Harrison

  18. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    15 Jun, 2013 - 4:49 pm

    The Old Biddy is disparaging about the programme referred to by Phil :

    “The programme is excruciating. Audio equivalent of moving wallpaper. As you say, bits of propaganda mixed in with sport, ‘news’ and trivia.”

    ——-

    No doubt she would like it better if it was overflowing with the same sort of stuff that gets posted on this blog (irrespective, btw, of the subject of the thread), ie the relentless, steely and courageous exposure of unspeakable evil through the good offices of a small collection of Eminences who….know.

    Thank God it isn’t.

    PS – wasn’t it rather inconsiderate and offensive to Craig for the usual suspects to go off-topic so quickly? Craig was asking for some information on a vessel and we are, at 07h00, regaled with a link concerning the Duchy of Cornwall. Relevance?

  19. Flaming June

    15 Jun, 2013 - 5:00 pm

    A cheerful looking cove. Not. Hard faced.

    And popular too. Not. Especially not with Hubert Hughes.

    http://www.anguillanews.com/enews/index.php/permalink/3607.html

    http://www.anguillanews.com/enews/index.php/permalink/4135.html

    You would not think it’s 2013 and this feudal stuff is still going on.

    It provided a nice stop off for these hangers on last year.

    http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2012/03/one-day-royal-visit-for-anguilla.html

    The Wiki page is interesting. It looks very beautiful but ‘Anguilla’s thin arid soil is largely unsuitable for agriculture, and the island has few land-based natural resources. Its main industries are tourism, offshore incorporation and management, offshore banking, captive insurance and fishing. Many insurance and financial businesses are headquartered in Anguilla.

    Before the 2008 world-wide crisis the economy of Anguilla was expanding rapidly, especially the tourism sector which was driving major new developments in partnerships with multi-national companies.’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anguilla

  20. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    15 Jun, 2013 - 5:03 pm

    @ Phil :

    From the tone of your very amusing post you appear to have taken against the Governor of Anguilla, Mr William Harrison.

    Any special reason for that?

    Is it because of something he’s done (or not done) of which you have privatre knowledge? Or because he’s Oxford? Or because he read Greats? Or because he’s former FCO? Or perhaps because he was taken into the Royal Victorian Order (just like Craig, I believe).

    Please do tell me, I’m curious to know why you’ve taken so against someone of whose very existence you were ignorant up to today or yesterday.

    Thanks!

  21. The falklanders voting to remain in UK is democracy in action. However, when the people of Anguilla overwhelmingly vote for independance they are wrong. And invaded. British paras were last sent in to (the short lived Republic of) Anguilla in…….1969.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Anguilla

  22. Don’t believe everything you read on Wiki. Anquilla wanted separation from St Kitts not the UK.

    http://www.cariwave.com/the_anguillan_rebellion.htm

  23. The short lived Anguilla Republic, ruthlessly crushed by british brutality, had an outstanding flag – three circling dolphins on a gentle blue sea.

    Freedom for Anguilla! Down with the imperialist scumbag Harrison! I hear he drowns kittens in biscuit tins!

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rQqwr7SWy6k/T-cm539EyDI/AAAAAAAAAZM/0A5EoKMrXFg/s1600/anguilla-old.png

  24. @Kempe

    I’m sure the situation has details beyond my simple interpretation of something I just read on the internet. However, at the time St Kitts was still ruled by the British and it was British troops who quelled the rebellion. Anguilla now wants independance. It now wants rid of a “corrupt”, “lying” english toff of a governer imposed by London. You have to admit it’s all a bit, you know, empire sounding. The governer looks like he should be running belmarsh and “enjoys opera, skiing, sailing, tennis, bridge, golf and running wog countries.” Come on that can’t be serious. Does he drink gin?

  25. Habbabkuk,

    Why decry the thread going off topic then post a query looking to extend the off topic discussion?

    You’re pretty thick really aren’t you?

  26. Flaming June

    15 Jun, 2013 - 8:42 pm

    I have been searching for links to South African shipwrecks this afternoon. The Dutch East India Company, known as the VOC, should have chosen False Bay rather than Table Bay as their base. It would have been a safer harbour.

    I have visited Cape Town many times and reading about these hundreds of shipwrecks over recent centuries has been an eye opener. So many lives must have been lost.

    This work in particular was very interesting.

    The Seaport, Table Bay
    http://www.ecu.edu/cs-cas/maritime/upload/ecur008.pdf

    I came across this. Nothing to do with shipwrecks but it concerns a former SA Ambassador to Israel.

    ‘I was not a party to, and never will be, to the planting of trees on expropriated and stolen land’: Former South African Ambassador to Israel rejects JNF trees planted in his name

    Adam Horowitz on June 14, 2013
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/06/planting-expropriated-ambassador.html

    Ismail is a good and decent man. He would have had a hard time in his homeland for this stand.

    His photo http://kuruc.info/galeriaN/egyeb/delafrikaizrael04.jpg

    More – http://mg.co.za/article/2013-06-14-00-not-in-my-name-rages-sa-diplomat

  27. I can find a reference to a shipwreck of Emma on the 1821/01/04 in the Salt River Beach area of Table Bay.

    It doesn’t appear to be as detailed as yours, Craig, but references in the document to the weather leading to the large number of shipwrecks in Table Bay is interesting (essentially ‘strong gales’ rather than hurricanes – but then you can’t get hurricanes in the southern hemisphere and Table Bay is not a cyclone area)as are the historical reasons for the establishment of Cape Town – as a provisioning stop for Dutch East India Company ships.

    Historically and geographically it might make sense that your Emma was shipwrecked here.

    http://www.sahra.org.za/sites/default/files/heritagereports/CTICC%20AIA%2025_10_2012.pdf

  28. @ O/T

    My passion and interest is in the “Zong”.

    Is this what you mean?

    … lives of seven white men and sixty African slaves ….

    No – it was 131 Africans ( I don’t know the number of the Zong crew that Sharpe wanted tried for murder. But, educate me if you have number.

    This is what I am saying:-

    REPARATIONS : A CASE FOR SETTLEMENT
    The Kenyan case
    In June 2013 Her Majesty’s Government was required to pay 19.9 million pounds in compensation to some 5,000 elderly Kenyans who were tortured and abused during the Mau Mau ( an English bastardised name for “ muingi” or “ muigwithania” as the movement) uprising in the 1950s. This case bears lessons for the Caribbean and it also has much to teach about the true nature of the British Empire.
    The British imposed themselves in Kenya and confiscated land. In 1948 quarter million Kenyans were confined to 2,000 square miles, while 30,000 English settlers lived on 12,000 square miles of the most fertile lands in Kenya. Africans under an apartheid and colonial policy were forbidden to enter certain areas and confined away from the most arable land. Not surprisingly, the Kenyans rebelled and started a violent campaign against the white settlers in 1952. The colonialists responded and the Kenya Human Rights Commission estimated that 90,000 Kenyans were executed, tortured or maimed. There was the use of literal concentration camps ( see the observations below of the then British Attorney General) as a nationwide network of detention for some 160,000 who were detained in the most appalling conditions. President Obama’s grandfather, Hussein Onyango Obama, happened to be one of those detained persons. He had pins placed into his fingernails and in his buttocks and his testicles were squeezed between metal rods. Other Kenyans were forcibly relocated in new villages. Within the camps the British inflicted beatings, castrated, raped and performed other forms of sexual abuse and torture applying brutal interrogation techniques against the Kenyans. It was against this background that elderly Kenyans who had suffered abuse when detained filed a claim in the English High Court. Two of the original five claimants had been castrated and an African lady who had been raped was included in the claim.
    One might be astounded that despite the repeated public and international proclamations for many years by Her Majesty’s Government about defence of all types of human rights, it fought the Kenyan claims. In 2011 the High Court finally ruled that the four test cases were “arguable cases in law”. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office went as far, on the second round of the British government’s objections, of arguing that the claims were outside time limits. But, one knows in point of law that there is no statute bar on a crime against humanity, as one is aware that for murder and serious criminal offences no statute of limitation applies. In October 2012 the cases were permitted to proceed to trial, despite the best legal resistance that HMG could muster. The British government went as far as hiding an enormous secret archive consisting of more than 8,000 files from 37 former colonies, which researchers discovered and HMG was compelled to disclose. At Hanslope Park in Buckinghamshire, this secret archive was held separate from the National Archive at Kew, London. This discovery of the several documents corroborated the Kenyans’ claims. During this time one of the four elderly claimants died before judgment, then the case was finally settled out of court.
    A part of British Foreign Secretary William Hague’s statement in response to the case reads:-
    “ The British Government recognises that Kenyans were subject to torture and other forms of ill-treatment at the hands of the colonial administration.”
    The FCO expressed “regret” but then immediately drew semantic distinctions stating that the expressed “regret” was not an “apology”. The reason for this, one surmises is that the Caribbean has a very strong case to be brought for reparations for the Atlantic African Slave Trade once an apology is made and there is full acknowledgement of the crime against humanity.
    The Caribbean case
    Queen Elizabeth 1 by way of Royal Charter and ably assisted by Captain John Hawkins in the 1500s established a criminal enterprise, of funding for trips to Africa to kidnap Africans, place them on ships and via the Middle Passage sail them across the Atlantic to be enslaved on plantations and for centuries without pay, have the enslaved and each generation thereafter build wealth for Britain, being the principal slaving nation in the modern world. But while Berlin has a Holocaust museum, by contrast where are Britain’s many slave museums and public monuments of contrition? Not so, because of the persistent and prolonged collective denial about the catastrophic consequences of coercion, torture, and the damage wreaked on sizeable numbers of humanity by colonialism.
    The Irish, truth be told, faced slavery, and the Irish famine, for which HMG apologised. One then knows that there is precedent for a similar apology to be tendered to the African descendants in the Caribbean, as Queen Elizabeth 11 did to the Maoris in 1995 for colonizing their lands and breaching the treaty of Waitangi in New Zealand.
    As with the Kenyan claim one expects all forms of continuing denials before the claim is filed and the case is finally compensated. Following the victory for the Kenyans, the British government hastened to state that it “…doesn’t accept liability for the actions of previous colonial governments”. This declaration is consistent with the central intellectual plank of resistance used by European historians to “racialise” and rationalise the kidnapping of Africans to state that Africans captured Africans to be sold, therefore no claim can be made for slavery reparations. So, might one honestly ask – when France warred with England or Germany with the rest of Europe, is that how European historians reasoned – that there was no wrong for want of European racial solidarity when lining up to fight their own kith and kin? I think not. If so reasoned then war reparations would never have been imposed by Europeans. One Hermann J. Abhs, a German Jew (Director of the Deutsche Bank Abhs) financed Auschwitz, the concentration camp in which thousands of Jews were slaughtered. As Director of the Deutsche Bank Abhs he definitely played a direct role in financially assisting the Nazi regime along with corporations that participated in war crimes. Clearly, tribes and nations exist in Africa and as with European warfare, so too did Africans fight Africans, but African leaders resisted the slave trade from its inception:-
    “ And we cannot reckon how great the damage is, since the mentioned merchants are taking every day our natives, sons of the land and the sons of our noblemen and vassals and our relatives, because the thieves and men of bad conscience grab them wishing to have the things and wares of this Kingdom which they are ambitious of; they grab them and get them to be sold; and so great, Sir, is the corruption and licentiousness that our country is being completely depopulated, and Your Highness should not agree with this nor accept it as in your service. And to avoid it we need from those (your) Kingdoms no more than some priests and a few people to reach in schools, and no other goods except wine and flour for the holy sacrament. That is why we beg of Your Highness to help and assist us in this matter, commanding your factors that they should not send here either merchants or wares, because it is our will that in these Kingdoms there should not be any trade of slaves nor outlet for them. Concerning what is referred [to] above, again we beg of Your Highness to agree with it, since otherwise we cannot remedy such an obvious damage.”

    “And as soon as they are taken by the white men they are immediately ironed and branded with fire, and when they are carried to be embarked, if they are caught by our guards’ men the whites allege that they have bought them but they cannot say from whom, so that it is our duty to do justice and to restore to the freemen their freedom, but it cannot be done if your subjects feel offended, as they claim to be.”
    (Letter from African King of the Congo Nzinga Mbemba – a.k.a. Afonso 1: to the King of Portugal – letter dated October 18, 1526)
    The Caribbean claim for reparations initially is academically established by Dr. Eric Williams book “Capitalism and Slavery” and more recently advanced by Professor Hilary Beckles book “Britain’s Black Debt”. Every facet of British society has been astoundingly enriched from the period of African enslavement in the Caribbean. Slavery for Britain was central to the British economy, not peripheral, and at the time was proclaimed to be central and in the “national interest” for the enrichment of Britain. Royalty; the Church of England; the British Parliament with a dense population of slave owners; families whose wealth inure to this day – Queen Elizabeth 11 second cousin, the 7th Earl of Harewood (George Henry Hubert Lascelles died July 10th, 2011) and his family in Barbados owns the plantation that produced the wealth for the family with 232 slaves, and they all owned slaves in the Caribbean. Barclays Bank was started from the profits of two plantation owners who traded in slaves. The insurers, Lloyds of London started as insurers of ships that were transporting slaves from Africa to the Caribbean. The “Zong” case of 1781 involved the jettisoning of some 131 Africans thrown into the Atlantic ocean, for reason of a shortage of water on board ship. The case brought in the English courts was not for murder, but to reclaim the insurance money on the131 persons lost as “property”. The times and context of the case may be weighed, yet at the time the anti slavery campaigner, Granville Sharpe tried unsuccessfully to have the crew tried for murder. The real point is the inuring British judicial denial of “human rights” ( as in contemporary times illustrated and confirmed by the British government’s response to the Kenyan case) which exposes a stark contradiction between the basic professed tenets of English law, respect for the rule of law, human rights and justice and the conflicting set of views which to this day instinctively and compulsively deny the rights of others. Historical conditioning evidently makes it hard for some to yield to the just demands of others. As an exercise in advocacy – might the lawyer ask – what would your response be if it were your English persons, enslaved in England and treated as the Africans were in the Caribbean? But, whoever the advocate and whatever the question, the British government will resist the claim for reparations once the claim is made. First by way of continuing the official British policy of no apology for enslavement complemented by efforts to refuse payment of compensation due from the British government which built its economy on African slavery and will without shame maintain that position ( as illustrated by the Kenyan case). Malachy Postlethwayt, a political economist, frankly and honestly wrote in 1745: –
    “British trade is a magnificent superstructure of American commerce and naval power on an African foundation.”
    It is no more or less than moral and intellectual dishonesty to attempt, as many European scholars and some African sympathisers have less than ably tried to do, to blame the Atlantic African Slave Trade on Africans, when the financing, the maritime and shipping arrangements, the insurance, the manning of the ships, the organisation and ownership of the plantations and slaves related directly to a coordinated European led criminal enterprise, with profits directed back to Europe, without pay to the Africans.
    Were one to ask – how many persons killed in Auschwitz received reparations from the German government for the crimes committed against humanity – the answer – not one – it was the descendants of the Jews and the group that was paid reparations. In the debates leading up to the 1838 Emancipation British parliamentarians actually debated having the slaves pay to their English masters a sum for the loss of the services to the master as a precondition for their freedom. In the Kenyan case an equivalent modern day debasement of justice occurred when the British state’s lawyer actually advanced the legal concept of states succession to claim that the modern Kenyan state and government should be the defendant and potential payer of reparations. There is further illustrative consistent European historical parallel, in Haiti, after the slave revolution, when France demanded that the Haitian self-freed slaves pay reparations for the loss of the property the French had owned, and so by borrowing, the debt was paid in the sum of 21 million French Francs to France. There was operative French and Euro-American blackmail, because Haiti could not trade internationally unless the debt was paid. In 1914 the United States of America bought the debt from France and continued collecting payments until the 1950s. In the British Caribbean colonies, after ensuring delay of emancipation until satisfactory payment of reparations were arranged, it was the slave owners who received £ 21 million (approximately£ 200 billion in today’s currency) from the British Treasury for the loss of their “property”, when African slaves were freed. The enslaved throughout received not a penny from the British for the centuries of free labour. No land, no compensation, not a jot paid for the original captured nor to their generations. And to this day – no apology from Britain.
    Let it not come from the writings or words of a mere “colonial” born under British rule in the waning days of Empire, but from the words of no less a person than a British colonial Attorney General, Eric Griffith- Jones and his description of the abuses of Kenyans which at the time read:-
    “…distressingly reminiscent of conditions in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia” .
    The foregoing is the true modern legacy of Britannia, coming undeniably from high authority who knew from the British side. But, one need not so much be astounded, nor even be annoyed by the depths of contemporary denials and contrivances, based as British views are, moulded and conditioned over centuries and assisted by handmaiden intellectual support, for purposes of historical distortion, by sections of European academia. The misconceptions and cleverly constructed colonial myths inure against the crimes of British colonialism and imperialism that actually were committed (still commit – Iraq?) against humanity, then become understandable, but not condoned. Admission of the crimes committed would actually cause psychological shock inversion from the initial acceptance of “truths” to the shock of the rejection of an embrace of the romanticisation of the illegality, exploitation, slavery and theft by the ‘benign Empire’ once anyone is compelled to view the truly barbarous nature of the operations of the British Empire. Kenya was a good and wonderful place to be born or live and be white in colonial times, as Elspeth Huxley tells us in her book “The flame trees of Thika” – but not so for the displaced Africans – and so through whose eyes do we see truth? If the Kenyan case was one of the darkest episodes of Britain’s imperial past, what then, in comparison would the Caribbean claim for reparations constitute? The Caribbean has a challenge, now bolstered by the Kenyan case, to take collective steps to commence a claim for reparations.
    It is not that, on the demonstrated record Britain wants to learn from the past, rather there is a decisive willfulness to distort, avoid, hide and minimise the true levels of compensatory payments and/or restorative sums lawfully due. This observation is factually supported by reference to certain colonial files being placed out of reach despite the stipulations of the UK Freedom of Information Act. Additionally, there is a case to be brought in England that the provisions of the Public Records Act 1958 have been breached.
    The claim for reparations can be made in one or more of the following ways:-
    1. Placing the matter before the UN General Assembly. This was the declared intent of Chief Abiola, the elected leader of Nigeria. Sadly, it appears that he was killed by the military when he had been imprisoned and the intent to claim reparations through the Nigerian government’s efforts at the UN died a death with him.
    2. Use of a specially constituted international tribunal to decide upon the terms of payment through a negotiated settlement.
    3. A contested case argued before an international court. There being at present no international court with specific jurisdiction for the award of African reparations, the claim becomes one of political will to make the claim and establish a specially constituted court.
    4. Reliance can be placed on the International Court of Justice through which an advisory opinion can be sought. This fourth point relates back to the first in that the General Assembly of the United Nations could make this request.
    For some, the matter may seem something related to the distant past that has no contemporary bearing. History however is not disjointed. The negative self images of the African, in psychological, literary, economic and social terms are not conditions biologically determined, but rather are historical constructs. To the extent that an individual owes certain moral duties to self, to family, to community, to nation, to humanity, that mental state of moral resoluteness can be aggregated through Caribbean nation states and into the Caribbean community. Power never conceded anything without a demand, it never has and it never will. The conditions of African-Americans or Africans in Southern Africa under Apartheid seemed at a point in time immutable and was so proclaimed by Ian Smith for a thousand years to come. But, a vision accompanied by avowed collective purpose did within fleeting political time change the existing segregated and disconsolate order. Of course, there first had to be the will.
    The value that may be assessed due from Britain relates to a starting point of the sum of £200 billion, ably and vigorously debated in no less an august place than the British Parliament. Much of British aid money serves purposes that are disguised to promote sales of British produce and services abroad (arms included). Reconfiguring the existing aid funding and redesigning British foreign policy can do much good in shifting from hand outs of beguiling aid and supportive pursuit of wars of aggression to constructive payments of reparations for sustainable Caribbean development and indeed stepping along a path of global justice. It is not that the source of funding for reparations would have increased nor changed, but the acknowledgment of the criminal wrong inflicted and the purpose of the same funds would have. Reparations so paid would then involve mutual respect and the acceptance and acknowledgement of the crime against humanity that had been committed, as distinct from projecting to the world that some benign British aid money has yet again been handed out to the needy living in the post-independence exploited and dependent British colonies. If one were to take the first quarter estimate for expenditures on the Iraq war up to March 2013 of £8.3billion ( and when the maimed and psychologically wounded are returned from the lies ( not lines) of this WMD war there will be medical costs to the British state that will increase that figure for the remainder of the lives of the soldiers for their medical care ) then, even on the basis of a hugely discounted settlement sum, if HMG can find the money to pay for destructive war there surely can be sums found for constructive reparations payment s to the Caribbean for reparations and sustainable development. The result as with other reparations claims realistically will involve consultation and negotiation. The judgment thereafter might be quite simple, such as total British debt relief for all English speaking Caribbean nations accompanied by a 50 year educational trust for any Caribbean citizen who matriculates to be educated free of cost at any British university, and a reasonable sum in monetary reparations paid to each Caribbean government in the English speaking Caribbean. Of the total sum payable, there can be a tripartite weighted division of the total value between the proportions allocated for debt relief, education, and direct reparations payments. Her Majesty’s Government cannot now afford the greater embarrassment of fighting a case of far larger historical significance than the Kenyan cases, so might avoid the cost of further debasing the professed value system of the British government and state and its global reputation, such as it stands. Little compensation indeed, to claim for the centuries of exploitation and co-related economic benefits bestowed on Britain; so reparations do remain justly due and a case inviting settlement might now be advanced. Since the idea of collective punishment came easily as policy for the British in Kenya, there then should not be a problem, in terms of the best traditions of British jurisprudence in addressing collective restorative justice for the people of the Caribbean. The people of the Caribbean should now decisively bend the arc of history from assumptions of benevolent associations with Empire towards direct efforts in pursuit of this claim for justice.
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    Courtenay Francis Raymond Barnett is a graduate of London University. His areas of study were economics, political science and international law. He has been a practising lawyer for over thirty years, has been arrested for defending his views, has survived an attempt on his life and death threats, and has argued public interest and human rights cases.

  29. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    15 Jun, 2013 - 10:00 pm

    When I read this from the Old Biddy :

    “I have visited Cape Town many times and reading about these hundreds of shipwrecks over recent centuries has been an eye opener. So many lives must have been lost.”

    I was quite surprised – and gratified – that she didn’t manage to weave Jews, or Zionism, into the narrative somehow (eg, “many of the ships were owned by London Jews”, or something similar).

    BUT….. I was gratified too soon!

    For, in the very next sentence, we have a reference to Israel! A reference which the Old Biddy just happened to have come across, quite by chance, and which she herself admits had nothing to do with ship wrecks.

    The O.B. never disappoints.

  30. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    15 Jun, 2013 - 10:09 pm

    @ Phil

    I don’t know whether the Governor of Anguilla drinks gin or not (I don’t know him as intimately and for such a long time as you obviously do), but I should say that, judging by your couple of posts, you would appear ti have been at the hard stuff for a little while. Am I correct, or is this your natural state?

  31. “The people of the Caribbean should now decisively bend the arc of history from assumptions of benevolent associations with Empire towards direct efforts in pursuit of this claim for justice.”

    Twerp.

  32. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    15 Jun, 2013 - 11:50 pm

    Giles, you have a wonderful way with words!

    Succinct, to the point, and so right! :)

  33. When I was growing up, at some stage in my life, I learnt to block advertising as I was going about my business, especially advertising on the street – “billboards” as our American brethren call them.

    There is only one way to deal with Habbabkuk (referred to as ‘it’ from now on (I don’t know its true gender) – block it in exactly the same way – when you see the name, scroll on by. It lives off responding to the frustration/anger/hatred of those who respond to it. If there was no response, it would wither and die, like a weed with no water. Eventually it would be promoted/demoted by its paymasters to another blog. It is only as effective to the extent that it is responded to.

    Dave.

  34. @Giles + Habbaburble (or whatever)

    The terrible twins = two twerps

  35. Apologies – The last line should have read:

    It is only effective to the extent that it is responded to.

  36. Indeed – I have been reading this blog for a long time – isn’t there a way to block particular bloggers? I am a supporter of freedom of speech, as much as I am a supporter of freedom of listen/read. I choose not to listen to/read people I think ruin my visual space by generally writing invective. I think this blog should let me exercise that right.

  37. Habbakuk,

    Jeez…you really are a proper fool.

    It was you that raised the OT point and then continued thereafter to develop the questioned point.

    I hadn’t raised the OT issue THEREFORE my point to you remains relevant,valid.

    Had i raised the OT point you may have had a point.

    But you didn’t THEREFORE you are the complete and utter idiot,as ever.

    Wow…i dont think ive ever encountered a more stupid poster on any blog,ever.

    Habbabkuk..you’re pissing into the wind,as usual,and it’s embarrassing for you and your line manager.

    Fool that you are.

    Epic fail Habbabkuk…again…

    F minus.

  38. Habbakuk,

    It ought be clear to yuu now after these last 8 months or so…nobody really likes you on this blog.The few that engage with you do so out of a sense of pity or curiosity-or are too polite to call you out.

    Your diversionary bully boy ignorant sinister tactics against Mary have been ugly,dark and deeply twisted.

    You,simplisitcally as ever,decry Mary as an anti-Semite…Wromg.She’s pro-Palestinian.

    Big BIG difference you narrow bought and paid for troll-fool.

    Nobody here likes your pathetic lies,hubris and twisting arrogance.

    And don’t dare call me an anti-Semite Habbabkuk…i aint..what i dislike is sinister twisted bullies like you,whatever their stripe.

    You’re an evil,ugly,bullying sinister sockpuppet Habbakuk.

    I couldn;t care if you’re Israeli,Jewish or a Zionist.

    It really means nothing to me.

    What you represent,and what i loathe about your bought and paid for shill tactics is your raw ignorance,intolerance,knee-jerk idiocy and lies.

    Is that clear enough Habbabkuk?

  39. Tony Blair now calling for immediate and total war against Syria.

    Tony Blair Middle East Peacy Envoy-if we recall…?

    More bombing of brown people.They barely seem to count in his deeply Catholic world i guess.

    Lets none of us fall for the distractive Blair/Wendy Murdoch gossip eh?

    These twisted fucks would sell their first born for a distractive headline.

    Syria is the game,ignore the diversionary riffs.

    Poor poor cherubic Tony.Probably spotted age 12 at private school as a useful gurning controllable idiot for the future.See under Fettes College and The Very Rev Dr Ronald Selby-Wright.Naughty naughty MK-Ultra!

    Its not as if Murdoch would deliberately send his wife on a blackmail longterm mission is it?

    Oooh…perish the thought eh?

  40. Has been a CIA agent since she was compromised at college, even her college banger was paid for by them. Her topmost handler has been George Bush, lately she is being handled by the CIA boss. The timing of these utterances is no coincidence, it started with the Fabius “confirmed proof” of chemical weapons usage. All her talk of Catholic conversion,etc are all ploys at covering up the long list of falsehood, that has been forced upon her since the CIA filmed importunity in a Bow Street public toilet.

  41. Flaming June

    16 Jun, 2013 - 8:43 am

    Coming to Florida soon. Interesting that he is linked with the other throwback Bush, Jeb, and a ‘best selling author’ Michael Lewis. Never heard of him.

    http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-06-14/story/tony-blair-jeb-bush-and-author-michael-lewis-headline-florida-forum

    http://guestlistapp.com/events/169194

    Don’t you just love the Barbara Bush Literacy Foundation? Pity she did not work the miracle on Dubbya and Jeb. It’s all as funny as the oxymoron of linking George W Bush’s name with a library.

  42. Flaming June

    16 Jun, 2013 - 9:19 am

    A nice rant on Amerika 2013 style. I like the anecdote about the Jack Russell refusing the burger.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/14/gangsta-government/

    I hear the Western states are still suffering severe drought and wildfires yet Obomber concentrates on killing more Muslims.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_North_American_drought

    The repercussions on world food prices and availability will affect all of us.

  43. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 9:50 am

    @ Jives :

    Firstly, let me make it clear that I forgive you your intemperate remarks – everyone should be free to express him:herself as he/she likes, irrespective of the silliness of the underlying thoughts and ‘ideas’.

    Every sentence of your screed would deserve a reply, but I’ll limit myself to just a couple of remarks:

    1/. “Your diversionary bully boy ignorant sinister tactics against Mary…” (and “sinister” is used again further down):

    “sinister” is a rather emotive term; perhaps designed to send a shiver down people’s backs. Would you like to elaborate on why and how my occasional comments are “sinister”?

    2/. “It ought be clear to you now after these last 8 months or so…nobody really likes you on this blog.”

    That’s as may be but, in your opinion, should popularity be a criterion for commenting?

    3/. “…or are too polite to call you out.”

    I hope you don’t disapprove of politeness on blogs? You yourself might, with advantage, try it some time?

    4/. “You,simplisitcally as ever,decry Mary as an anti-Semite…Wromg.She’s pro-Palestinian”

    Yes, I’d spotted that but then why the obsession with Jewish bloodlines (to use the phrase of another commenter)? The tactic seems not altogether different from that used by many Zionists who smear any citicism of Israel as anti-Semitism.

  44. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 10:08 am

    @ Jives (01h54) ;

    “Jeez…you really are a proper fool.

    It was you that raised the OT point and then continued thereafter to develop the questioned point.”
    ______

    In accurate, I’m afraid.

    Kindly refer to the subject of this thread (“The wreck of the ‘Emma'” and, having done that, to Mary’s posts at 07h30 (on Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall) and at 11h14 on 15 June (on a Radio 5 programme and Anguilla), the latter being a follow-on to Phil’s egregiously silly and ill-mannered comments on the same Radio 5 programme and Anguilla (10h06 on 15 June).

    However, generous and honest as always, I’ll be happy to withdraw my strictures if you’d be kind enough to explain the relevance of those posts to the subject of this thread.

    You might also refer to

  45. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 10:13 am

    @ Dave :

    “When I was growing up…..”

    Please let us know when you have finished that process, there’s a good chap.

  46. As ever the truth will out:

    UK planned war on Syria before unrest began

    “I’m going to tell you something. I was in England two years before the violence in Syria on other business. I met with top British officials, who confessed to me that they were preparing something in Syria,” said Dumas.

    He continued by saying, “This was in Britain not in America. Britain was organizing an invasion of rebels into Syria. They even asked me, although I was no longer minister for foreign affairs, if I would like to participate.”

    Because:

    Responding to a question on the motive behind inciting violence in Syria, Dumas said, “Very simple! With the very simple aim! To overthrow the Syrian government, because in the region, it’s important to understand, that the Syrian regime makes anti-Israeli talk,” said Dumas

    The former foreign minister added that he had been told by an Israeli prime minister a long time ago that Tel Aviv would seek to “destroy” any country that did not “get along” with it in the region.

    So all the troubles lead to fucking zionistan and all those ziofuckwits that are stealing the Palestinians lands (shooting and maiming the stolen lands owners), free loading on US tax payers tax monies, and setting off their guard dogs in UK to “destroy any country not getting along” with the said ziofuckwits.

  47. The interference and denigration of regular posters, today its Phil, seemingly follows the pattern of previous personal assaults.

    I apologise for Sophia’s dads behaviour here, which is not surprising, but rather following a pattern of mental flare ups, so its seems. We acknowledge that her dad grew up in an environment of sexual repression, when homosexuals and transsexuals were beaten up on the streets of London.

    We must give him time to find his repressed self, maybe a professional appointment with someone, if their jobs have not been cut by our Neanderthal Government, to see whether such repression can be healed.

    We will support your dad and his desire for multiple posts on here, Sophie, the intense pressure he suffers from the ruler swallowed during public school will decrease once his mislife man-opause and the night sweats subside.

  48. Flaming June

    16 Jun, 2013 - 1:26 pm

    Q What has this post got to do with ‘Jewish bloodlines’ FFS?

    It was about the theft of Palestinian Land and the planting of JNF forests over the remains of Palestinian villages.

    Ismail Coovadia would have been well used to the Apartheid of the white supremacist rulers in SA. He would been classified as Cape Coloured in that repugnant system and would have not been allowed to travel on Whites Only transport, to live where he chose to or to swim in the sea where he liked. He would have been used to seeing signs like these. Segregation just like the Zionist version of Apartheid Israel.

    http://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/apartheid-sign-whites-only.jpg

    http://southafricamtse2013.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/apartheidsign2.gif

    http://www.submergingmarkets.com/editorials/apartheid.gif

    Totally vile.

    More from SA on the mislabelling of Israeli goods being imported.
    http://rhodespsf.org/2012/05/25/labels-im-not-an-anti-semite-davies/#more-96

    Glad to see that there is a PSC at Rhodes University now.

  49. A treat for you all, some rare footage of Neil Young playing at Hammersmith Underground station in 1976. I was in El Paso that year, learning how to operate as well as repair ‘stone age’ radar systems.
    Enjoy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hAblRhE7KkA

  50. Habbabkuk,

    Youre wrong,plain wrong.

    Your post on June 15th 4.49 pm has no relevance to the thread at all.Most stupidly you post to decry the thread going OT,then post to continue the OT!

    Bit thick really.

    I dont mind threads going OT.Its the way of this blog from the start therefore-and here’s the point Habbabkuk-you cant call me out for pointing out your dumb OT post about OT posts when OT posts dont bother me.I was simply pointing out YOUR idiotic hypocrisy.

    Capice?

    Its a straightforward point but no doubt youll attempt to twist it as ever.

  51. The people of the Caribbean should now decisively bend the arc of history from assumptions of benevolent associations with Empire towards direct efforts in pursuit of this claim for justice.

    Very true. Time to hold those exploiters to account and set a precedence for others in the future; these too will face punitive measures for their misdeeds.

  52. Nevermind
    16 Jun, 2013 – 3:29 pm

    Thanks for that link Nevermind.

    Music is God’s language!!!

  53. You have probably seen this plethora of books magazines and autobiographical work, all with free access to read.
    Some are from the same decade and could potentially have some reference that might help.

    My first attempt at the subject, although I failed to spot the ‘Emma’. And what type of ship, was it a whaler, a schooner, tea clipper?

    http://www.dictionaryone.com/english/east_india_company.html

  54. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 6:37 pm

    @ Jives

    What is it exactly that you don’t or can’t understand?

    As you write yourself, it’s a straightforward point : please name the poster(s) who first diverted this thread from its subject. Clue : around 07h00 yesterday.

    You would be of some use to this blog if you too attempted to keep comments on topic rather than just approving the displays of thematic and verbal incontinence every thread seems to be subject to.

  55. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 6:47 pm

    “Q What has this post got to do with ‘Jewish bloodlines’ FFS?

    It was about the theft of Palestinian Land and the planting of JNF forests over the remains of Palestinian villages.”

    ________________________

    I’ll give you an example of your obsession with Jewish bloodlines, you old hypocrite!

    Do you remember the enthusiastic and innuendo-filled way in which you were delighted to bring to our attention that fact that the opposition candidate in the recent Venezuelan Presidential election had one or two Jewish ancestors?
    You did it by specifically calling attention to the fact that his full surname (in the Spanish fashion) was Capriles Radonski, accompanied by one of your little hints.
    Of course, when asked why that was so significant as to warrant you drawing attention to it…answer came there none.

    So FFS to you too.

  56. Anyway, talking about boats, looks like Fermanagh now has its own no boat zone.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/16/g8-summit-exclusion-zone-northern-ireland

    If only Maguire had thought of that, eh.

  57. Calm down, Habby. Calm down.

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 7:54 pm

    @ Herbie (19h39):

    An excellent precaution of which everyone should approve; not to do so would amount to saying that the G8 leaders should not be protected as well as humanly possible from potential threats.

    Your link also informs us that protesters are being keep far away through a ring of steel. This is excellent news also, as people may have the absolute right to protest but should absolutely not be allowed to disrupt. Let them demonstrate and protest in London (or Londonderry).

    **************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  59. Flaming June

    16 Jun, 2013 - 7:59 pm

    FFS Radonski Capriles is still protesting about Maduro’s win. Bad loser like yourself.

  60. Flaming June

    16 Jun, 2013 - 8:08 pm

    Furthermore you old twister, my post about the SA Ambassador to Israel was about his objection at being given an unsolicited award by the JNF to give his name to one of their hideous forests.

    ‘After Israel’s establishment in 1948, the government began to sell absentee lands to the JNF. On January 27, 1949, 1,000 km² of land (from a total of about 3,500 km²) was sold to the JNF for the price of I£11 million. Another 1,000 km² of land was sold to the JNF in October 1950. Over the years questions about the legitimacy of these transactions have been raised but Israeli legislation has generally supported the JNF’s land claims.’

    And a touch of conscience.

    ‘Susan Nathan wrote that forests were planted on the site of abandoned Arab villages after the 1948 war.[31] Nathan also writes that olive trees were replaced by pine and cypress trees[32] and that JNF afforestation policy erases traces of the Arab presence prior to 1948.[33] In 2008, the JNF announced that historical information plaques erected in JNF parks and forests would cite the names of the Arab villages formerly located there.’

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

  61. Flaming June

    16 Jun, 2013 - 8:18 pm

  62. doug scorgie

    16 Jun, 2013 - 9:18 pm

  63. doug scorgie

    16 Jun, 2013 - 9:29 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    16 Jun, 2013 – 7:54 pm

    “Let them demonstrate and protest in London (or Londonderry).”

    Children should be seen and not heard eh Halfcocked?

  64. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 11:16 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie (21h29) :

    No, that’s not the idea at all, Doug.

    The idea is that the right to protest and dissent does not include the right to obstruct and/or disrupt.

    Hence the authorities are well within their rights to keep demonstraters at such distance from the meeting venue as makes it impossible for them to obstruct and/or disrupt.

    ———–

    Furthermore, you do not have to be at the scene of something you wish to protest against in order to protest and draw media attention to that protest. Thus you can demonstrate against the G8 – or rather, against the ideas and policies it is espousing – in London, Londonderry or anywhere else for that matter.

    Hope that helps you understand.

  65. Habbabkuk,

    For the 3rd time i’ll run it by you.Your previous piss poor attempt to “answer” was an exercise in complete diversion and waffle.

    I have no problem with OT posts.Got that yes? Good.My post was pointing out that you were furthering a topic that you’d already wailed at as OT.You eejit.

    My point wasnt about who posted the first OT point(cos that doesnt bother me-remember?) but why you would decry an OT post then ask to develop it.

    You cant wriggle out of this Habbakuk.I called you out on your first post on this blog and i bang you to rights yet again,child.

    I leave it to others to see clearly(and check to validate) what i’ve said and realise you’re pissing into another obfuscative disingenuous troll teacup.

    Have you no shame you daft pathetic child?

  66. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    16 Jun, 2013 - 11:24 pm

    “FFS Radonski Capriles is still protesting about Maduro’s win. Bad loser like yourself.”
    —————

    Flaming June, you carefully drew attention to Capriles’ Jewish bloodline BEFORE the election and therefore at a time when the question of whether either candidate would be a good or bad loser was even more irrelevant than it is today.

    You may deny it as often as you like, and you work by sly allusion in the main, but the evidence overwhelmingly points to the fact that you are anti-Jewish. And that particular form of racism makes you no better than the Zionists you go on about all the time.

  67. Habby

    The security around the venue and beyond is not about protestors. Don’t be ridiculous.

    There’s no threat to these people from anyone or any group in NI.

    The security, which extends throughout NI, is immense.

    It’s purely a show of power.

    I just wish they’d compare dick size where someone gives a shit, and leave our beautiful spaces alone.

  68. Habbakuk 11.24pm,

    Oh dear.You really are losing it now Habbabkuk.

    Go and see a doctor or something.You really are a very disturbed individual indeed.

  69. Everytime I look at the thread headline I think of this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw

    Does anyone know where the love of God goes…

  70. @Doug Scorgie

    That was a brilliant piece of work! Not Habba so not sarcastic!

    Looking at what you got it seems that there could be a link with William Paxton … I’ve no idea if he owned ships for the shipping of goods between India and Liverpool as well as dealing in dicey money for clients back and forward through that bank of his but it seems it could well be the case. Need information that’s a bit more detailed than that on Wiki … If it were the case and his company owned the Emma then the details of her loss for which Craig is looking should be fairly easily obtained – for I imagine that the Caxton bank’s archives still exist.

  71. Well, just answered at least part of my own question …

    From:
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/INDIA/2000-01/0949286996

    “The firm of Paxton, Cockerell, Trail & Co. specialised in the
    cultivation and sale of indigo to Europe and of opium to China, along with subsidiary dealings in silk, silk piece goods, cotton, sugar, saffron, and lac.

    Now to find the company archives …

  72. @ Jives,

    ” “The people of the Caribbean should now decisively bend the arc of history from assumptions of benevolent associations with Empire towards direct efforts in pursuit of this claim for justice.”

    Twerp.

    If you want debate and not invective – I shall give it to you if you respond.

    CB

  73. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 7:21 am

    The Coccus Hesperidum goes on a lot about the ‘Jewish bloodline’. What is it and who possesses it? Do you have to be in possession of it to occupy Palestine and then call it Israel?

    Q. Why does Capriles conceal his real name of Radonski?

    Q. Does C. Hesperidum know if I am Jewish or not and whether I belong to Jewa for Justice for Palestinians?

    Q. Does C. Hesperidum know how many Jewish friends I have?

  74. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 7:27 am

    Doug I looked at that pdf of Lloyds for 1821. There were over a dozen ships with the name Emma and I could not decide which one was relevant to Craig’s search. The coding was complicated too.

  75. Courtney Bennett 2.22am,

    Erm…i didnt post about that..sure it aint another poster you intended that for?

    :-)

  76. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 7:43 am

    No surprise here. What is the Hebrew for ‘the old boys’ network’?

    President of international war crimes tribunal may have worked to shield Israelis from prosecution

    The New York Times reports that an Israeli diplomat turned U.S. citizen – and now president of the war crimes tribunal at the Hague – has been pressuring the court to acquit officials accused of war crimes.

    The Times says that the Israeli-American judge, Theodor Meron, “… has led a push for raising the bar for conviction in such cases, prosecutors say, to the point where a conviction has become nearly impossible.”

    Some analysts feel that Meron’s motivation may be to protect Israeli political and military leaders from prosecutions that could place them in legal jeopardy.

    /..
    http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/news/israellobby/item/2858-judge-on-international-war-crimes-tribunal-may-have-worked-to-shield-israelis-from-prosecution

  77. Buggalugs-

    I was quite surprised – and gratified – that she didn’t manage to weave Jews, or Zionism, into the narrative somehow (eg, “many of the ships were owned by London Jews”, or something similar).

    It would be terrible if they dropped off the radar, wouldn’t it? But well done on remedying her omission. Carry on remembering the holocaust, old chap. Carry on.

  78. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 10:48 am

    @ Herbie :

    “The security around the venue and beyond is not about protestors. Don’t be ridiculous.

    There’s no threat to these people from anyone or any group in NI.

    The security, which extends throughout NI, is immense.

    It’s purely a show of power.”
    _____________

    I would agree with you if you were to say “The security around the venue is not ONLY about protesters. Obviously it is also in place to protect the participants against other risks as well, including the risk that someone or some group might, for example, take a potshot at them or worse.

    You assert confidently that “there is no threat to these people from anyone or any group in NI”. How do you know that?

    As for saying that all of this is a pure “show of power” – well, by the same analogy, you might as well say that the police (in general) should be confined to their police stations and not show a public presence because that is also a “show of power”. And that would be a ridiculous thing to say, wouldn’t it.

  79. Craig posts a request looking for help on a very pointed question requiring research. And look at all the completely off-topic posts that started just a few comments deep. First from Courtenay and then Flaming June.

    Surely those could have been posted on the penultimate thread, still alive and kicking?

    I have a suggestion to make to Craig and Jon which is to consider an ongoing ‘chat room’ thread for current topics or ongoing chatter. That can go on endlessly or be refreshed each month.

  80. Flaming June
    17 Jun, 2013 – 7:27 am

    “Doug I looked at that pdf of Lloyds for 1821. There were over a dozen ships with the name Emma and I could not decide which one was relevant to Craig’s search. The coding was complicated too.”

    It’s the first one on the list confirmed by the tonnage 467.

  81. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 11:13 am

    Flaming June’s post requires some answers:

    “The Coccus Hesperidum goes on a lot about the ‘Jewish bloodline’. What is it and who possesses it? Do you have to be in possession of it to occupy Palestine and then call it Israel?”

    I think that she should answer those questions. I confine myself to noting that Flaming June is indefatigable in sniffing out people’s Jewishness or Jewish ancestors or even their connections with other people who happen to be Jewish or with Jewish ancestors. There is ample evidence for this in her posts, it has been noticed and commented on by others than myself and it comes up so often that it is, I think, fair to call it an obsession.

    “Q. Why does Capriles conceal his real name of Radonski?”

    I think this is called putting up a straw man. What evidence can she bring for asserting that Capriles “concealed” his second surname? As I’ve already pointed out to the Old Biddy, Spanish surnames, when spelled out in full, contain both the father’s and the mother’s surnames. Hugo Chavez will also have a double surname. Aznar, Gonzalez, Rajoy, Franco etc etc etc etc also have full surnames consisting of two names.
    In practice in the Spanish speaking world people use only their ‘first surname’, ie that of the father. This is not a question of concealment, and it is very silly of the O.B. to try and bring Capriles’ mother’s surname to our attention as if it was a kind of ‘scoop’ and then, having been questioned about her motives for so doing, claim she has unearthed something that was being ‘concealed’.

    “Q. Does C. Hesperidum know if I am Jewish or not and whether I belong to Jewa for Justice for Palestinians?

    Q. Does C. Hesperidum know how many Jewish friends I have?”

    Those are rhetorical questions and not particularly relevant ones. If the O.B. thinks the answers are relevant, however, then she should supply the answers herself. But this strikes me a variant (as always, Flaming June is cunning and works by allusion) on the anti-Semite of the anti-black protesting “oh, of course I’m not anti-semitic/colour prejudiced, why, some of my best friends are Jews/blacks”.

    Hppe that clarifies!

  82. She may have been hired by the Navy. There’s an Emma here in 1810-11 (third comment)
    http://jfinnera.www1.50megs.com/Mauritius.htm

    …which is likely the same Emma as gets a brief mention here as a transport:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mauritius_Command

    467 tons is about right for a transport of that period.

  83. http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/wreck-of-the-emma/#comment-413254

    Troll Go home or go away. We have had enough of you. There were five or six days on this blog free of your bile and venom until you returned. Did you get recalled to base for training?

    PS Don’t give me ideas on Jewish owners of ships in the C19. They were involved in the slave trade if you care to use Google.

  84. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 1:01 pm

    @ Flaming June :

    “PS Don’t give me ideas on Jewish owners of ships in the C19. They were involved in the slave trade if you care to use Google.”
    ___________

    I’m sure that you don’t need anyone to give you ideas when it comes to sniffing out the involvement of Jews in anything, dear.

    BTW, on a point of information, were Christians and Muslims involved in the slave trade as well? Just wondering.

  85. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 1:35 pm

    PS I scrolled straight through your previous two items of garbage. When I see that silly RyVita is best rubbish I get the pip.

    Anyway there is a new thread for you to attend to. Don’t want to get in trouble with your masters do you?

  86. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 2:25 pm

    @ Flaming June

    “PS I scrolled straight through your previous two items of garbage”
    _______

    No problem, I don’t have any illusions that you will ever learn (nor change).

    But I imagine that others will have read them, and that’s the point really.

  87. The pattern goes;

    First comes the occupation, and colonisation.

    Then comes the setting of new rules and regulations.

    The attempts in trying to set up new “chatroom”, “decrying out of topic comments”, “highlighting tropes”, “deriding other commenters”…… etc. Fall in line with changing the blog from Craig Murray’s blog, into a “New Craig Murray” blog, that doug murray would be proud to come and take part in its “debates” thereafter.

    What in hades has the conduct of any commenter to do with any other commenter? How can any commenter start taking over the ownership, of the blog, and start setting up new rules and regs?

    Now that new regs are coming thick and fast. Jon how about changing the colour of the background to iridescent green, and a continuous loop sound track of The Washington Post March, and a graphic of a nodding Islam Karimov with a bubble: “We approve of the New Craig Murray Blog”.

    Also Jon, why don’t you link up with Wowcher too, so that the commenters can get on with printing some discount stuff to take to supermarkets and crap restaurants?

    Finally will Mary, and anyone else who actually are contributing to this blog stop doing this at once and start singing the praises of the ziofuckwits, and zionistan, antisomit that they all are.

    PS. Jon I already have read your thoughts!!

    PPS. Like many others on this blog and elsewhere I care not one jot about deranged ziofuckwits proclamations. Hence no communications will be entered into with these.

  88. doug scorgie

    17 Jun, 2013 - 4:07 pm

    Off topic but while we wait for Habbabkuk to come up with something on topic…

    It is a disgrace how “establishment” figures like Lord Rennard are treated deferentially by the police when investigating crime.

    Lord Rennard has been accused (in February) of sexual assault and harassment that is alleged to have taken place over a four year period.

    At the time he was neither arrested nor interviewed by the police, instead they decided to make enquiries to establish the details around the accusations.

    Now the police want to interview him about the allegations but again he wasn’t arrested at home, like any member of “Joe public”, but invited to attend a police station by appointment, no doubt at a time and date suited to his convenience.

    Most people accused of indecent assault and sexual harassment would be arrested on SUSPICION of those offences as soon as possible and interviewed at a police station.

    They would be kept in a cell while enquiries were made and statements taken.

    The accused would be released after either being charged with the offences or given police bail pending further enquiries.

    There seems to be little information on how the police are handling this; has he been charged or bailed?

    Surely the media must be aware of the facts. Why are we not being told?

  89. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 10:10 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie (16h07)

    Interesting questions, but how on earth are we supposed to know?

    Why don’t you approach the police and the media directly and report back with your findings?

  90. doug scorgie

    18 Jun, 2013 - 9:46 am

    Apropos to my post above at 4:07pm

    Another example of the different way the police handle crimes carried out by the powerful as opposed to the way they handle the same by “Joe Public”.

    “Charles Saatchi cautioned for Nigella Lawson assault”

    “Scotland Yard said a 70-year-old man “voluntarily attended a central London police station and accepted a caution for assault” on Monday afternoon”

    Being invited to attend a police station (no doubt at a time and date at his convenience) rather than arrested then being given a caution rather than prosecuted, despite all the evidence in the public domain and plenty witnesses.

  91. I’ve been wanting to strangle Nigella for years…

  92. Why don’t you approach the police and the media directly and report back with your findings?

    Possibly for the same reasons as you don’t. After all, you’re fond of asking questions, if not so good at spotting when there’s no point in asking them.

  93. Troll Yes Christians and Muslims were involved in the slave trade. I looked at the same Wikipedia page yesterday too.

    ‘Jews and the slave trade

    Like their Christian and Muslim neighbors, the Jewish people have historically owned and traded in slaves. In the middle ages, Jews were minimally involved in slave trade.[1] During the 1490s, trade with the New World began to open up. At the same time, the monarchies of Spain and Portugal expelled all of their Jewish subjects. As a result, Jews began participating in all sorts of trade on the Atlantic, including the slave trade.’

    Note the American spelling of neighbors. I noted that the article was part of the series on anti-Semitism which I found puzzling. Surely it was about slave trading. Who decided that there should be separate pages? It was ‘Noleander’ a senior editor.

  94. Komodo said:

    I’ve been wanting to strangle Nigella for years…

    Don’t joke about it. The fear and humiliation so apparent in her eyes, leaves little room for any kind of triviality. Further, to find the infantile and stupid rationalisation of the perpetrator of those despicable acts of violence is an insult to anyone’s intelligence.

    Violence ought to be abhorred in all its forms, be it state aggression, ie warmongering, or those kicking the crap out of any stranger in the streets, or those men or women who find the best way of affecting change of behaviour in their “partners” is through a good dose of beating.

    There are many victims of violence, and you will find none of them think it is fun, or funny. However whilst the appalling images of assault on Nigella are being pounced upon by those earning their living out of the misery of the victims of violence, spare a thought for the men who are getting beat up and have to cope with keeping silent about their tormentors whom happen to be their wives, or partners.

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 11:47 am

    @ Komodo

    “I’ve been wanting to strangle Nigella for years…”
    _____

    You show deplorably bad taste in that case. She’s a rather beautiful woman and, far from being strangled, should be cloned in the interests of beautifying further the public space.

    Seriously though : of course I don’t know exactly what happened, I wasn’t there and I have no idea what Saatchi might have said at his interview with the police. This puts me in the same position as all other commmenters on this blog. But I must say that the photos contained in the link someone or other supplied here do not appear, all of them at least, to show signs of fear and humiliation (I’ll admit immediately that I may be mistaken).

    Enough of that, I think.

  96. You show deplorably bad taste in that case. She’s a rather beautiful woman and, far from being strangled, should be cloned in the interests of beautifying further the public space.

    I admit, I have always been conflicted on this. But I think we should be countering encouragements to obesity, as well as discouraging the intentionally provocative behaviour leading inevitably to grievous misapprehensions on the part of the insensitive as to who is and who is not sexually available. And, regardless of Passerby’s PC outburst, on the whole I have wanted to strangle her for years, and I don’t do retrospective PC, sorry.

    *ducking*

  97. And if Nigella ever met me, she would undoubtedly want to strangle me, so fair’s fair. The key word is probably ‘want’. The key initials are SOH.

  98. And, regardless of Passerby’s PC outburst

    I would have blasted away at anyone else, but seeing as it is the Olde Lizard, perhaps there is a need for further elaboration;

    1- I am not PC,
    2- Not jumping on the band wagon
    3- Having seen a little five years old girl who was afraid of any men, and I had to sit there for thirty minutes without so much as moving a muscle, and witness her keeping an eye on me from the corner of her eyes. finally plucking up enough courage to poke me in the ribs and run away and turn back to find me still sitting there. Finally relaxing and starting to play.

    The girl’s father had stabbed her mother to death, whilst she was screaming her head off, and the child was hiding under the staircase. So it is not PC or for that matter anything else, other than knowing that there is no such a concept as controlled violence.

    Violent couples ought not be living together, these ought to understand; there is no concept as a little bit of a violence, and there can be no room for any kind of violence at home.

    Thus the comment, we can laugh and make fun, but to find such a prominent woman getting abused, so openly, and then to be subjected to the infantile bullshits of a rich wanker in justification of his deplorable actions, is not a subject for laughs.

    We all know that the rich twat’s mates in no time will try and defuse the situation by making jokes and poking fun at this dreadful public episode, which is a green light for the tossers who can hardly count beyond the digits on their hands.

  99. My assumption is that they were both pissed, in fact. And there’s a damn sight worse goes down on a Friday night between ill-matched nonentity couples in any city centre. Point being, if the incredibly publicity-conscious Saatchi had meant any permanent damage (or wasn’t on another planet due to the Colombian marching powder, in which case blame sleb culture), would he have done that in public? In the certain knowledge that there was a paparazzo behind every, er, bush?

    As to prominent women getting abused, yes. Remember when Rebekah Brooks nee Wade lamped her then husband, Ross Kemp? (Later they parted on the grounds of Kemp’s adultery, so she could have had some cause, much as I detest her). No action was taken. No doubt Kemp was too terrified of his evil and dominant spouse to take it to the police….

    Slightly more seriously, how do you propose to ban violence? My experience is, if you push people (or any other animal) beyond a certain point, the violence kicks in automatically and disconnects any rationality that may be present. Even more seriously, and highly contentiously, do you believe that 0% exactly of battered wives have incessantly, over a period of years and in a high whiny voice, been pressing the violence button on their not very bright and relatively uninhibited partners? Really?

  100. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 4:34 pm

    I always feel for the children who are from her first marriage to John Diamond in this case.

    The combined wealth of Saatchi/Lawson of £128m (D Mail) does not appear to have brought them much happiness. Their neighbours hate the rows they hear. The Saatchi couple have also been involved in the basement wars but hypocritically, did the same to new neighbours when they moved.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/10025473/Basement-extensions-and-the-rise-of-the-Iceberg-Home.html

    In contrast, I met two happy humans this morning. One, a middle aged man photographing insects, flowers and plants on the riverbank. He showed me what he had photographed. One was a tiny beetle with a shiny green iridescent body and a pointed snoutlike head. Like a little jewel. The other was a young chap called Ben who was drawing, in great architectural detail, one of the Victorian lock keepers’ cottages. He was using pen and ink and it was an excellent representation. He told me that his great granddad who is still alive in his 90s and who had worked as a window cleaner, had started him off by teaching him how to draw and paint.

    Two uncomplicated humans, seemingly totally happy unlike the unfortunate Saatchi couple, and the contact with them made me feel happy too. I walked home through the meadow which is full of buttercups and grasses all taller than me, and I am tall! So beautiful.

  101. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 7:48 pm

    @ Flaming June ::

    I liked that post very much!

  102. doug scorgie

    18 Jun, 2013 - 7:51 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    18 Jun, 2013 – 11:47 am

    “I don’t know exactly what happened, I wasn’t there and I have no idea what Saatchi might have said at his interview with the police.”

    I’ll tell you what he said:

    “yes I committed assault” or words to that effect.

    People are not offered a caution by the police unless they admit their guilt.

    “But I must say that the photos contained in the link someone or other supplied here do not appear… to show signs of fear and humiliation.”

    Perhaps you couldn’t be arsed to research for yourself, the photos available online.

    Anyway the police and witnesses disagree with you HB.

  103. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 11:28 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie (Dishonesty my speciality) :

    You’re being naughty again! You quote me as follows :

    “But I must say that the photos contained in the link someone or other supplied here do not appear… to show signs of fear and humiliation.”

    FULL quotation of what I wrote (emphasis added) :

    “But I must say that the photos contained in the link someone or other supplied here do not appear, ALL OF THEM AT LEAST, to show signs of fear and humiliation (I’LL ADMIT IMMEDIATELY THAT I MAY BE MISTAKEN).”

    Not quite the same, eh, Doug?

    You’ve been caught out again.

  104. The Derby (England) Mercury of 18 April 1821 reports that on 04 January 1821 the Emma and two other ships were found driven onshore at Table Bay due to a “hurricane” the previous night. A local, Frank Rose, ran out on horseback to bring a rope from the Emma to the shore, saving the crew and passengers. He was drowned, however, when waves threw him from his horse after he tried to reach one of the other ships (which was Danish).

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