All Law is Gone: Naked Power Remains

by craig on July 3, 2013 8:39 am in Uncategorized

The forcing down of the Bolivian President’s jet was a clear breach of the Vienna Convention by Spain and Portugal, which closed their airspace to this Head of State while on a diplomatic mission.  It has never been thought necessary to write down in a Treaty that Heads of State enjoy diplomatic immunity while engaged in diplomacy, as their representatives only enjoy diplomatic immunity as cyphers for their Head of State.  But it is a hitherto unchallenged precept of customary international law, indeed arguably the oldest provision of international law.

To the US and its allies, international law is no longer of any consequence.  I can see no evidence that anyone in an official position has even noted the illegality of repeated Israeli air and missile strikes against Syria.  Snowden, Manning and Assange all exposed illegality on a massive scale, and no action whatsoever has been taken against any of the criminals they exposed.  Instead they are being hounded out of all meaningful life and ability to function in society.

I have repeatedly posted, and have been saying in public speeches for ten years, that under the UK/US intelligence sharing agreements the NSA spies on UK citizens and GCHQ spies on US citizens and they swap the information.  As they use a shared technological infrastructure, the division is simply a fiction to get round the law in each country restricting those agencies from spying on their own citizens.

I have also frequently remarked how extraordinary it is that the media keep this “secret”, which they have all known for years.

The Guardian published the truth on 29 June:

At least six European Union countries in addition to Britain have been colluding with the US over the mass harvesting of personal communications data, according to a former contractor to America’s National Security Agency, who said the public should not be “kept in the dark”. This article has been taken down pending an investigation.
Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for the NSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US.
Madsen said the countries had “formal second and third party status” under signal intelligence (sigint) agreements that compels them to hand over data, including mobile phone and internet information to the NSA if requested.
Under international intelligence agreements, confirmed by declassified documents, nations are categorised by the US according to their trust level. The US is first party while the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy second party relationships. Germany and France have third party relationships.

The strange script which appears there happens when I try to copy and paste from this site which preserved the article before the Guardian censored all the material about the UK/US intelligence sharing agreement from it.

As you can see from the newssniffer site linked above, for many hours there was just a notice stating that the article was “taken down pending investigation”, and then it was replaced on the same URL by the Guardian with a different story which does not mention the whistleblower Wayne Madsen or the intelligence sharing agreements!!

I can give, and I would give on oath, an eye witness guarantee that from my direct personal experience of twenty years as a British diplomat the deleted information from Wayne Madsen was true.

 

 

 

 

 

Tweet this post

329 Comments

  1. Putin’s good. He said this in one take without breaking up. No teleprompter either. “If he wants to stay here, there is one condition: He must stop his work aimed at harming our US partners – no matter how strange this may sound coming from me… ”

    It can’t get much better. I doubt Snowden is struck in transit at the Moscow airport, but now the Bolivian President, his Defense Minister and their air crew are trapped in the transit area of the Vienna airport. No evidence of Sacher Tortes and coffee on silver trays either. All hail Obama and Kerry. Takes Ivy League smarts to pull this off. The diplomatic cables should be real-time available to us for real-time laughs.

    It’s the new Library at Alexandria. The sum wisdom and stupidity of the human race. They also need store the billions of spams per day. Who knows what messages Enemies of the State might embed in those.
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56515678-78/data-nsa-http-www.html.csp?page=1

    We’re reminded we have nothing to fear if we have nothing to hide, and nobody is snooping aunt Maude’s recipe for rhubarb pie. Based on all gubmints’ record for truth-telling, they surely are reading recipes, testing and selling the tastiest to food conglomerates. :)

  2. The media has long been under the sway of the government. Look on the BBC website for the new stories about the dangers of dark nets and the impact they are having on Internet child abuse. This information has been put out there so as to build up public acceptance that anyone not communicating in plain text is up to no good. It also has the subliminal effect of reinforcing why its good for GCHQ to monitor all Internet traffic.

  3. The censoring of the story of Wayne Madsen reminds me of the story of Radio Moscow’s news reader Vladimir Danchev who called Soviet troops in Afghanistan “invaders” and “occupiers”, and was quickly taken off air and treated as a mental patient.

  4. Tech Savage

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:22 am

    Seems to me the BRICS have become very suspicious of Snowdon’s motives, which seem primarily to be about creating a rift between the US and the EU. What is without doubt is that no one is actually really shocked about PRISM, we’ve known about Echelon for decades, where’s the outrage? All this bluster from Germany and Belgium is to placate the media instilled ‘anger’ of their populations.

    When you strip away the media hype you are actually left with very little that wasn’t already known; the US spies on it’s allies and is collecting data on people, FFS they have been doing that since day one, as have the UK, Russia, China. etc. etc. What do you think those secret services spend all their time doing, just watching each other?

    Wikileaks is a psyop – you can support Assange all you like, the fact is the Wikileaks cables were highly vetted (not one cable regarding the US’s ‘greatest’ ally in the M.E.?) before they fell into the hands of Assange, who then treated them as his personal property for financial gain, for which his controllers duly deployed the sexual allegations to bring him back in – and why he now prefers to live like a parasite off the Ecuadorian people rather than face the music that he partly orchestrated.

  5. Tech Savage

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:26 am

    “The media has long been under the sway of the government.”

    Yes, just ask Rupert Murdoch.

  6. While your hunch may be correct (nothing surprises me about this story anymore), Wayne Madsen is a true nutcase. I don’t know how the Guardian was snookered into including anything by or about him in a story.

  7. Right-Wing Hippy

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:27 am

    The strange script which appears there happens when I try to copy and paste from this site

    Paste it into Notepad, then copy from there and paste into WordPress. This will clear the formatting.

  8. Austria said the president of Bolivia was cleared to leave through Spain’s airspace, now story is that’s not true; Spain still blocking.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

    Craig, you think the Europeans are having some passive-aggressive fun, having been bullied into forcing Morales’ plane down in Vienna, they’re now messing around and allowing US stew for a few more hours in world outrage?

  9. conjunction

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:33 am

    What is interesting is the arrogance of this act. Obama often speaks as if he were lord of the universe, or more specificaly as if it were/should be a given that the USA is the benefactor of and main holder of wisdom amongst mankind. His earlier remarks about Snowden were slightly dismissive which made me think it was his playmates who were getting their knickers in a twist. But he must have authorised this.

  10. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:46 am

    I was coming back here from your previous post Craig to wish you (and your heel) well and to ask if you could comment on this outrage given your expertise in international law.

    We know that Israel knows no law and now the US acts likewise. Completely out of control and their ‘president’ is a hypocritical and implausible one dimensional chimera fit only for photo opportunities visiting slave houses and prison cells.

  11. It is true. There is no longer any international law.

    This report produced by Yorkshire CND is well-researched history of what goes on at Menwith Hill (and elsewhere).

    http://www.natowatch.org/sites/default/files/liftingthelid.pdfhttp://www.natowatch.org/sites/default/files/liftingthelid.pdf

    The US has at least five major stations in the UK. Parliament never gave permission for these bases but the US in its arrogant bullying manner has done what it does regularly, stolen it from right under our noses.

    Don’t forget that tomorrow there is an Independence from America demonstration outside Menwith Hill, a US communications interception station, near Harrogate. The time has come to speak out and make your presence felt. Salma Yaqoob is one of the speakers. There is excellent food available.

    http://www.caab.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/july4th-20132.jpg

  12. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:59 am

    Meanwhile the Evil Empire is lost and going down. Crumbling back to ashes and dust.

    ‘Soon enough, your neighborhood will resemble mine, for the United States is becoming ever more Third World economically and socially, but this, the Italian Market, is hardly a benchmark. We’ll go further, much further. Outside its richest, gated enclaves protected by armed guards and, surely, combat robots and drones, the US will devolve into a society of rooming houses, day laborers and peddlers, not to mention street urchins and part-time prostitutes.’

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/03/a-view-from-south-philly/

    Linh Dhin the author keeps a photoblog – The State of the Union -where he closely observes his environment and his fellow citizens
    . http://linhdinhphotos.blogspot.co.uk/

  13. Well, the US doesn’t recognize international law, and neither does the UK. And they fail to recognize international law whilst, amusingly, warning others that they should obey international law, and they use this tactic repeatedly. It’s quite a trick, worthy of Goebells.

    I was intrigued by the Wayne Madsen story. Like everyone else on these boards, I have stumbled upon Mr Madsen, usually during a late night intergoogle. I kind of have him down as a bit of a crank, to be honest, from the outlandish conspiracy breed of crank. I say ‘kind of’ advisedly: so called conspiracy theorists are, of course, being proven correct on the NSA revelations, and I do so hate how often ‘conspiracy’ is bandied about, as a kind of gun-silencer, a smear, by dim-wits liks Oliver Kamm.

    However, even the wildest conspiracy crank, if that’s what he is, can get it right sometimes. I’m glad Craig – who doubtless is aware of Mr Madsen’s reputation – has given us his eye-witness account. The story itself, regardless of its source, didn’t seem all that implausible. I suspect more to come, too.

    And Mr Madsen is far more plausible, now, than the increasingly weird and creepy Obama, bluntly.

  14. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:07 am

    For information to those quick off the mark to smear Madsen. The usual CT stuff is hurled in the manner of Kamm, Rentoul and Aaronovitch. It sticks of course like the stuff you tread in on the pavement sometimes.

    On June 30, 2013, The Observer, which is owned by The Guardian, in London published a story sourced from an interview with Madsen that it had found in a blog, alleging connections between the National Security Agency and several European governments. [20] International journalists and security experts pointed out that Madsen was wholly unbelievable. Several called him an “online conspiracy theorist.” [21][22] John Schindler, a professor at the Naval War College and intelligence expert, commented on Twitter that Madsen was “batsh*t crazy, to use the technical term.”[23] The Telegraph, a U.K. competitor, and Forbes both revelled in the controversy with a Telegraph newsblog saying that The Guardian had relied on a “fruitloop who thinks Obama is gay”. [24][25] The article was quickly removed from the parent (Guardian) newspaper’s website pending an investigation, but not before the print edition had gone to press.[26] According to Forbes, The Observer likely took the story down as it was concerned with the reliability of the source rather than the content as no matter how “left field” the source was, the story seems to be largely true and has been a matter of public record for some years.[24]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Madsen

  15. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:18 am

    I used to be jeered at for speaking of the rise of fascism. It is creeping in, invisible to many.

    ‘Understanding the latest leaks is understanding the rise of a new fascism

    20 June 2013

    In his book, ‘Propaganda’, published in 1928, Edward Bernays wrote: “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organised habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.”

    The American nephew of Sigmund Freud, Bernays invented the term “public relations” as a euphemism for state propaganda. He warned that an enduring threat to the invisible government was the truth-teller and an enlightened public.

    [..]
    The power of truth-tellers like Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, and Edward Snowden is that they dispel a whole mythology carefully constructed by the corporate cinema, the corporate academy and the corporate media. WikiLeaks is especially dangerous because it provides truth-tellers with a means to get the truth out. This was achieved by ‘Collatoral Murder’, the cockpit video of an US Apache helicopter allegedly leaked by Bradley Manning. The impact of this one video marked Manning and Assange for state vengeance. Here were US airmen murdering journalists and maiming children in a Baghdad street, clearly enjoying it, and describing their atrocity as “nice”. Yet, in one vital sense, they did not get away with it; we are witnesses now, and the rest is up to us.’

    http://johnpilger.com/articles/understanding-the-latest-leaks-is-understanding-the-rise-of-a-new-fascism

  16. Madsen as conspiracy theorist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Madsen

    Of course I realise that will make him a hero and a highly credible source to many people around here. Just excuse the rest of us if we have a good laugh.

    Sorry if I have this wrong but I thought Diplomatic Immunity guaranteed free passage and immunity from prosecution to particular individuals. Snowden is not an acredited diplomat so does not have immunity from arrest. Neither does freedom from prosecution mean freedom to commit an offence. There’s nothing in the Vienna Convention that prevents anyone from intervening to stop an offence being committed by a diplomat. (I am fully aware that reference to an offence is going to be controversial but I’m looking at events from “their” point of view.)

    I’m also mystified as to why Snowden has applied for asylum in so many countries which are NATO members. Would they not be treaty bound to arrest and extradite him? If not wouldn’t they be inclined to allow his rendition?

  17. I’ve just tried to raise an Epetition on Telecommunications Interception to the Ministry of Defence which if I recall correctly went something like this.

    “Following the revelations by Edward Snowden and others, we, the British public, call for closure of US bases at Menwith Hill, Alconbury, Croughton, Lakenheath, Mildenhall and elsewhere which are intercepting emails, monitoring social networking sites, listening to telephone conversations and providing coordinates for US drone attacks abroad . . .”

    When I clicked on the link in the confirmation email I got a message saying that it confirmed the email address was correct and it could take up to 7 days before I would know whether it had been approved. I never had this with the last Epetition I raised.

  18. Obama is a liar when he says US forces won’t grab Snowden if he flies over US territory on his way to Cuba.

    Huge US pressure is being put on a number of countries’ governments.

    These include not just Russia but also France, Portugal, and Ecuador.

    Snowden was stitched up into flying to Moscow. He was given an Ecuadorean safe passage (laissez passer), which was then withdrawn!

    The western media churns out the bullshit that Ecuadorean diplomats in London are taking orders from Julian Assange rather than from Quito. What I think happened is that the US exerted pressure on both the foreign ministry in Quito and the Wikilinks hierarchy. Don’t forget that the Ecuadorean currency is the US dollar. The Russian government, through Russia Today, helped Julian Assange, and so did the Ecuadorean government. Now they’re both too chickenshit to follow through. I hope the Ecuadorean government changes its position.

    Snowden will be absolutely nuts if he flies anywhere near US or British airspace, or sails anywhere near their waters.

    Kim Philby avoided going through the English Channel en route to Cuba.

    Bobby Fischer avoided flying to Keflavik airport in Iceland, but chose to fly to a smaller airport less susceptible to US military action.

    With reference to Snowden, Bobby Fischer is the example people should be talking about.

    The list of governments that may help is now very small, and includes Bolivia, Venezuela, and Cuba, possibly in that order, and followed by Ecuador.

    The Bolivian government has been an example to the whole world in not kowtowing to the US and Israel.

    It is very significant that the aircraft carrying president Evo Morales, who was in Russia, was refused permission to enter Portuguese or French airspace. That must surely have been as a result of US pressure.

    In the end, the plane had to refuel in Spain and land in Austria.

    Morales has denied that Snowden was on board the plane.

    I do not know whether Snowden was ever in any area which can be considered to be under Bolivian jurisdiction (e.g. in the presidential car at Sheremetevo airport), but if he was, then I hope he was granted asylum when he was.

    The US government is pulling out all the stops.

    As I understand it, Morales is stuck at Vienna airport.

    I hope he is very careful about what he eats and drinks. Otherwise he may end up like a number of other Latin American leaders.

    I dearly hope that Bolivia has granted Snowden asylum, or if it hasn’t already, that a way will be found for it to do so.

    Morales: “We say and advocate that someone in the world should stand with this young man and protect him. The revelations he has made with courage serve to change the world.

    No doubt we will soon be hearing from all the barrack room lawyers.

  19. The BBC quote Austrian officials as saying Morales’s plane was searched at Vienna airport!

    Meanwhile, let us hope Ecuadorean president Rafael Correa’s U-turn was only temporary.

  20. Wayne Madsen may or may not be a swivel-eyed conspiracist nutjob. But what he said, and what was pulled by the Grauniad, was true. It didn’t even need security sources to back it. It was already in the public domain. A lot of messengers seem to be getting shot these days…

  21. Good post Craig.

    International law is mostly obviated by pro-US sympathies, including shameless cooperation by Australian politicians and political staff, some of whom have been exposed as US informants. On Obama’s reluctant visit to Oz, our current leader of the opposition referred to him in a speech as “.. the President of the world.” – - – I kid you not. You will not find evidence of this gaffe so easily. Not even on the intergoogle. The link below was a very tough find, confirmed by a nobody in the comments section of a completely unrelated article. Too embarrassing? Absolutely.

    “President of the World” in the comments section.
    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/abbotts-time-to-occupy-high-moral-ground-20111128-1o35z.html

  22. Phone records? Or is it everything?.

    US senators would like to know:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/28/senators-letter-james-clapper

  23. US military and spy bases in Britain

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:34 am

    Snowden is only saying what everyone interested already knows.

    Meanwhile, things can go into the public domain and then back out. One example is that the US used to pay the UK a lot of money (10 figures, I seem to recall) for the ‘rental’ of its military and spy bases in the UK. The payments were officially published by British government statisticians as a component of invisible exports. (For several years, if it hadn’t been for foreign military and spy bases and Lloyd’s insurance market, British trade would never have been in the black.)

    Nowadays, even the people who run campaigns against the US military presence in Britain know little or nothing about whether payments are still made, let alone how big they are.

  24. @Komodo. It’s everything.

    Which includes:

    ● domestic electrical circuits
    ● face recognition
    ● anything remote-readable or that remote-reads, e.g. in cars and mobile phones

    Capability is far far ahead of what’s admitted.

    When someone at GCHQ or NSA or even poor old MI5 gets your file out, they can call up far more than your emails, internet activity and what numbers you’ve connected to on your phone.

  25. Don’t for a minute believe that the forced landing of Bolivia’s President’s plane was brought about by a genuine belief of the US that Snowden was on board. It just might have been a dry-run test of EU cooperation with US plans to arrest Snowden for this likely contingency.

    Then again, Wikileaks might have tested the waters first by arranging a false report of Snowden’s attempted flight from Moscow. With sufficient false reports making multiple forced landings embarrassingly problematic, they might be able to clear the way for Snowden’s eventual departure.

  26. Live blogging here

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

    “So, after a stopover of more than 12 hours at Vienna airport, Morales is on his way. But the diplomatic row is set to run.

    “Bolivia’s ambassador to the United Nations in New York said the refusal to let his president’s plane cross over European airspace was an act of aggression that should have consequences, AP reports …

    “French and Spanish officials have reportedly denied that they refused access to their airspace. Bolivia said Spain agreed to allow the plane to refuel in the Canary Islands but only if Bolivian authorities agreed to allow it to be inspected.”

  27. Phone records? Or is it everything?

    According to this ex fbi counter terrorism officer it’s everything:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/04/telephone-calls-recorded-fbi-boston

  28. Now will people believe that the UK DID try to storm the Ecuadorian embassy in London last year, just ahead of Ecuador granting Assange asylum? I was up until 5am that night watching the livestream from the embassy and there were groups of police officers entering through windows round the side of the building. It seems the raid was called off abruptly about 3am because the police withdrew. As Craig told us at the time, he heard from Foreign Office colleagues that it had been planned for 3 weeks because of DIRECT pressure on Cameron and Hague from Washington/Obama. (Everyone remember Cameron and Clegg both booking their holidays at the same time, then Hague cleared off 2 days later? That’s how ‘plausible deniability’ is done.)

    Ecuador’s Foreign Minister announced last night they found a listening device in the London embassy during his visit to Assange last month. They say they are announcing which country it belonged to this morning. Also, that Snowden’s letter to Correa was hacked and leaked to the press before Correa even received it; Ricardo Patino claims his email account was hacked to create all the “increasing tensions in Ecuador over Assange ‘running the show’” stories; and they have tape recordings of Correa’s statements about Snowden’s asylum, which they claim have been mistranslated in the press. I predict a fairly explosive news day comin’ up!!

  29. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 12:28 pm

    ZBC have a tag* in their most read list on their website -

    Snowden suspicion jet ‘can fly home’ !!!!!!!!!!!

    Wow, that’s good of the ‘President of the World’, as another person has called him, this time in Tanzania.

    ‘“Obama is like the president of the world,” said Nuhu Sandari Mohamed, 60, who was out for a stroll along the street named after the president. “The fact that he’s connected to Africa, my children and their children and their children should know.”

    Couples strolled and sat by the water on Barack Obama Drive on Tuesday, as ice cream salesmen pedaled their three-wheel cycles with coolers loaded with treats. For Said Maumba, 28, Mr. Obama’s visit was the best day he had ever had selling frozen treats, like Kreemas for about 31 cents, to the throngs waiting to watch Mr. Obama’s motorcade pass.

    “He’s hugely famous, and a lot of people are obsessed and just want to see a glimpse of him,” Mr. Maumba said.’

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/africa/after-obamas-visit-an-electric-moment-for-tanzania-lingers.html?_r=0

    *The tag takes you to

    Snowden case: Bolivia condemns jet ‘aggression’
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242

  30. For the people asking upthread about the full extent of the NSA’s capability to capture all forms of comms in real-time, I have previously posted these two very informative articles about exactly that. The NSA were developing (and had patented) the technology to do “machine-transcription of voice” back in the 1990s. We can presume the technology has only improved since.

    Rixstep 13/6/13: NSA Transcribing Voice 17 Years Ago
    http://rixstep.com/1/20130614,00.shtml

    Rixstep 13/6/13: On US Patent 5,937,422 & ‘Semantic Forests’
    http://rixstep.com/2/20130614,00.shtml

    Hats off to Assange for understanding the implications for us all when he discovered this NSA patent back in 1999, and for trying to blow the whistle back then (aged 27 by my calculation – how happy he must be to see someone from the next Internet-generation doing the same to such effect a decade or so later. No wonder he’s doing everything in his power to help spirit Snowden out of danger.)

  31. FAO Craig,

    Here is the text without strike through;

    At least six European Union countries in addition to Britain have been colluding with the US over the mass harvesting of personal communications data, according to a former contractor to America’s National Security Agency, who said the public should not be “kept in the dark”.

    Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for the NSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US.

    Madsen said the countries had “formal second and third party status” under signal intelligence (sigint) agreements that compels them to hand over data, including mobile phone and internet information to the NSA if requested.
    Under international intelligence agreements, confirmed by declassified documents, nations are categorised by the US according to their trust level. The US is first party while the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand enjoy second party relationships. Germany and France have third party relationships.

    This article has been taken down pending an investigation.

    Perhaps this could be of some help.

    - – - – -

    This level of disregard for all conventions and treaties is repugnant even the National Socialist of the German Reich did not flout the international laws that US et al are systematically driving horse and coaches through! This is cowboys and red Indians gone wild.

    I am shocked, really truly shocked, this is the kind of stuff that starts all out wars.

  32. I really feel that people are powerless. Its not that revelations that Snowden released that is of any significance, its the actions take by the US government and European governments that have proven that the people are completely and unilaterally powerless to the security establishment we have allowed are government to create. We are now truly living in an Orwellian state, and even now so many people are blind to it.

    Just a few notes: I recommend everyone to read the Indian press as they not only failed to condemn PRISM, but announced that it had helped fight terrorism and they will now be basing their own program on it. I kind of get the impression that a few under hand deals were done between the Indian government after the news broke. The Chinese press also announced a phone monitoring system in Tibet, which surprisingly went unannounced.But both cases hint that both governments programs are nothing in the line of the US program.

    Another interesting point is the Sinovel trade case, were America announced they would prosecute Chine over stealing trade secrets despite now also technically being accused of doing the same.

    And the last point is I looked into the EU-US bugging, I am assuming it was down to the US wanting to pressure the EU not to except the Russian energy deals they were making at the time. Being the Lisbon Treaty which the US felt threatened by had just come into force.

  33. Ecuador’s Foreign Minister announced last night they found a listening device in the London embassy during his visit to Assange last month.

    So I guess that was the “security situation” that got Assange’s 1-year asylum anniversary speech cancelled the following day.

  34. It’s entirely possible that Snowden was being kidnapped from the transit area of the airport and the presidential ‘plane being used as cover for an extraordinary rendition. Doesn’t it just gladden your heart to see that positive action is now being taken by the governments of the free world to ensure that this kind of thing no longer happens and that a blind eye isn’t turned to the comings and goings of potentially suspicious aircraft ? It’s all the more impressive that even a stateless individual with passport and travel documents revoked can initiate such a prompt and well co-ordinated response from disparate organisations operating in different jurisdictions.

  35. Thanks, Craig, for starting this thread as it will allow posters to discuss all aspects of Snowden’s disclosures – e.g., who he really is, and why he did it, others apparently involved and what happened to them, government conspiracies and people who attempt to reveal them, all people are not invariably good and truthful, to get anywhere in effectively exposing our most corrupt, evil world one still has to make terrible compromises, then there are all kinds of surprises, good and bad, along the way, etc.

    Keep up with your efforts, and let’s hope that more posters show your virtues in promoting free expression.

  36. Although unlikely to be actionable, I believe NSA warrantless intercepts and recording of private communications are in breach of international copyright treaties that provide for extradition and prosecution of offenders as already effectively demonstrated in several cases. Will the US Govt provide public assurances that federal officials will not be allowed to engage in further copyright violations?

    Kim Dotcom (alleged copyright violator) has a stab at NZ PM (another copyright violator?)
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-03/kim-dotcom-challenges-new-zealand-spy-laws/4798006

  37. “Snowden was stitched up into flying to Moscow. ”

    Well it was Wikileaks who facilitated and arranged Snowden’s flight to Moscow, they who issued the suspect non-American-English statement purporting to have come from him and who are allegedly obstructing communication between Edward Snowden and his father. I’d hate to accuse them of exploiting Snowden for their own ends but…

    Interestingly whilst the Austrians claim to have searched the president’s plane the Bolivians deny any search took place; France and Spain also deny blocking the plane from entering their airspace.

    One day we might find out what the hell IS going on.

  38. We need to bear arms.

  39. Reporters Without Borders & WikiLeaks co-sign op-ed calling for EU to protect Snowden

    http://en.rsf.org/why-european-nations-must-protect-03-07-2013,44886.html

  40. Kempe, Wikileaks has been on the defensive ever since the summer of 2010 when it posted the Afghan Log, what Gareth Williams and Gudrun Loftus had put together and given it, without redacting names of those involved – what resulted in his brutal murder, and then hers when she tried to take up his cause. Astrophisicist Steve Rawlings followed them when he tried to determine St. John’s College, Oxford Dr. Sivia’s role in her murder.

    Certainly, Wikileaks did not try to stitch up Snowden by helping him go to Russia as Putin is more aware of what happened and more inclined to help than the Chinese but has nothing to gain by helping to promote the release of his disclosures.

    The Bolivian fiasco just shows what control Washington has over Snowden going almost anywhere now, leaving Obama with the puny, false claim about it not requiring the scrambling of fighters.

  41. @Arbed
    Now will people believe that the UK DID try to storm the Ecuadorian embassy in London last year, just ahead of Ecuador granting Assange asylum?

    I keep an open mind on it. Intimidation may have been a main aim.

    I was up until 5am that night watching the livestream from the embassy and there were groups of police officers entering through windows round the side of the building.

    Sounds like they took that route so as to get into an internal fire escape connecting several of the flats, including the embassy.

    Someone should keep video of stuff like this and post it up publicly.

    Craig told us at the time, he heard from Foreign Office colleagues that it had been planned for 3 weeks because of DIRECT pressure on Cameron and Hague from Washington/Obama.

    I wouldn’t believe every story that Foreign Office officials put out through Craig. They are capable of…well….you know…LYING THEIR SHITTY QUEEN-AND-COUNTRY PANTS OFF.

    And Craig, being mortal, is capable of being misled.

    Ecuador’s Foreign Minister announced last night they found a listening device in the London embassy during his visit to Assange last month.

    Hold the front page! :-)

    “They say they are announcing which country it belonged to this morning.

    Doesn’t seem that they did, though. It is unfortunate that they cannot simply shut their embassy in London, or even close the British embassy in Quito, which would provoke a tit-for-tat closure. While I am not sure whether the Brits were about to storm the embassy last year, I am pretty sure that if Ecuador plays the ‘diplomatic courier’ card, appointing Assange to that role and taking the position that he should then enjoy personal inviolability (which seems very clear under article 27.5-6 of the Vienna Convention, and note that diplomatic couriers, unlike diplomats, do not need to be accredited by a host country), the Brits and their masters from across the Atlantic (whether they much burgers or bagels) will show about as much respect for the Vienna Convention as they have been showing for the Geneva Conventions which are supposed to govern the treatment of POWs.

    I doubt that any hierarchical organisation is going to come out of the latest affair smelling of roses.

    And that includes those who already stink of AIPAC every second of the day, such as all but a handful of US senators. That said, actions such as the release of NSA information and the expulsion of USAID officials from Bolivia are to be welcomed unequivocally.

    One possibility here is the imminent eruption of very big problems with international trade. That was always going to be a feature of the inevitable economic collapse.

  42. Message from the people to Edward Snowden:

    “Thank you, Mr Snowden, for informing us of the activities of the NSA and GCHQ (ie, the USA and UK). You must understand that this information is unsettling to us, even though for many it’s only confirmation of what was suspected.

    We all have lives to lead, mortgages to pay, children to feed. We need to be able to continue with our lives for as long as we can. We don’t want the sack or ostracisation for speaking out (look what happened to you!).

    Thank you again, but,

    WE DON’T WANT TO KNOW”

    ——————————————

    “First they came for the whistleblowers…”

  43. @Kempe 1.25pm
    @ Trowbridge 1.51pm

    Good points!

    Trow, have you had a look at the death of John Tiley at Cambridge University yet? He was the top tax law academic in the country. He fell to his death from the roof of a building at the law faculty 4 days ago.

    He backed the introduction of a “general anti-avoidance rule”. Anyone who knows Britain will know that such a thing would be a complete dead letter as far as the big boys are concerned, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t conflicts.

    The police say they aren’t treating the death as suspicious.

    His wife Jillinda says he gave absolutely no indication that anything was wrong. “It just beggars belief”.

    Nonetheless, Jillinda puts queen and country first, and is quoted as speculating “whether her husband had suffered a stroke or had found out about a medical problem.”

    Yes, or perhaps he leaned over too far when admiring the view.

  44. Let’s hear no Russopobhia here, especially conspiracy theories at Putin’s expense, when the Bolivian President plane fiasco is showing what a genius he is, and what criminal assholes are leaders are,

  45. neorefusenik

    3 Jul, 2013 - 2:30 pm

    The NATO/EU satellites have about as much autonomy as the Warsaw pact and they will escape from their hegemon in the same general way. Tensions in the Warsaw Pact were not diplomatic disputes with Soviet Russia but divergent approaches to repressing the population. NATO has nothing to worry about until public outrage starts toppling regimes. The litmus test for a genuinely new regime is a state that either repudiates odious debt or formally denounces NATO per charter Article 13.

    There’s plenty of popular support for both but the subject populations can probably be kept down in the absence of a transmission medium for principled opposition. When the Warsaw Pact was decaying, the transmission medium was the Helsinki Final Act and the charter movements.

    So where might the impetus come from now? Candidates include UNESCO’s culture of peace and the various occupation movements, which interpenetrate – but rights and rule of law are very muted in the occupy movements, presumably because UNESCO wants to subordinate doctrine to organization. UNCTAD’s right to development is another institutional initiative but it gets no traction in the NATO bloc.

    The peace and development initiatives are saying the same thing: austerity is violence and repression is violence just as war is violence; peace and development are just the sum of all human rights. The new charter is out there, offering instant legitimacy to anyone who picks it up.

  46. Excellent post, Craig.

    If, as some commenters are suggesting, there has been a concerted effort to close off NATO airspace to Morales on the hunch that Snowden was on board, this’ll seriously compromise any future attempts the latter may make to reach sanctuary in a Latin American country. It also represents a real upping of the ante by the septics.

    Faced with this sort of pressure, Putin as well may have blinked a couple of days ago in his press conference, in which he asked Snowden to desists from ‘anti American activities’. Interestingly, that still leaves the Chinese standing up to Uncle Sam- and if any country has the wherewithal to stare the US down, it’s them.

    The odds on Snowden taking a return flight to HK soon could be shortening quite a bit today.

  47. N_ said;

    Indented/quoted

    Dropping is an age old favourite of the CIA, and by default the favourite of the satellite franchise of the the said illustrious organization, that even Truman after signing it into existence, became pretty disturbed by its putative “evolution” to the lawless firm that it was heading to become.

    Poor Gabby Rado in sulaymaniyah was dropped also, he had pretty damning evidence of the US B52 carpet bombing the Iraqi forces in that area.

    However remembering Terry Lloyd and his French cameraman Frédéric Nérac also among the list of the murdered for their intent on “whistle blowing”/reporting (unlike the embeds) on the hell on Earth that US created during its invasion of Iraq.

    - – - – -
    Flaming June said;

    I used to be jeered at for speaking of the rise of fascism. It is creeping in, invisible to many.

    Come on girl, we all know, and as Hollywood has taught us all; Fascists always wear jackboots, sport a moustache, clicking their heels at sighting any women, and heilling each other as they sip their Champagne, and talk animatedly and in foreign tongues about world domination. None of the current batch of lunatics, spivs, and carpetbaggers exhibit these traits, do they?

  48. @Neorefusenik

    “Transmission”?

    Hello Kautsky and Lenin (‘injection of consciousness’), Bordiga (‘transmission belt’), or take it back to Chernyshevsky’s ‘Bell’ (Kolokol) later appearing as Lenin’s ‘Spark’ (Iskra). It’s all the same idea.

    I respect your good intentions, but you are looking for a “revolution” to be made by ‘nice’ middle class professionals leading a movement of public opinion.

    Things just don’t happen that way. Not if the word ‘revolution’ is to be used in a genuine sensem that is. Do you really like what’s happened in East-Central Europe? Adverts and ‘how much?’ all over the place, as increasing numbers of people fall through whatever passed for a social safety net.

    Things don’t happen that way

    EITHER in working class revolutions (which with a few exceptions, such as Spain in 1936 and in various places in 1968, are brought about by the fear of starvation),

    OR in the pro-US fake shit which went on in East-Central Europe in 1989 and has been going on in various Arab countries recently.

    The idea of a movement occupying buildings and spaces is great (so the police are preventing access to one building? fine, so go and take the building down the road; we are many; they are few), but unfortunately the notion of ‘occupy’ has been spectacularised (hello ‘Zeitgeist’), as have terms such as ‘Big Brother’ and ‘Room 101′. The ruling class are ahead of us, it has to be said.

    If there’s one thing the CIA know, it’s how to run a ‘colour revolution’.

  49. It should be

    N_ said;

    perhaps he leaned over too far when admiring the view.

  50. Thanks, N.., certainly sounds fishy, and I shall look into it.

    Wonder if he, like Rawlings, was asking too many questions about what was going around Oxbridge.

    It’s clearly open season on any possible trouble.makers, as I well know by narrowly escaping assassination last Thursday night at about 12:40 PM. If I had only stood up when the killer with a beam light, laser pistol shined it into the window next to my bed, I wouldn’t be doing this.

  51. And credit to Craig for his unambiguous witness. Excellent post.

    I remember echelon, spying on each other’s population, being public knowledge decades ago.

    The first wikipedia entry for echelon included:

    “…critics claim the system is also being used for crass commercial theft and a brutal invasion of privacy on a staggering scale.”

    “…one of the many new arrows in the intelligence community’s quiver, along with increasingly sophisticated bugging and interception techniques, satellite tracking, through-clothing scanning, automatic fingerprinting and recognition systems that can recognize genes, odours or retina patterns.”

    “Echelon is a name for one of the largest spy networks in history. It can capture nearly every telephone call, fax and e-mail message sent anywhere in the world. There are estimates that it intercepts up to 3 billion communications everyday. Participating countries: [[United States]], [[United Kingdom|UK]], [[Canada]], [[Australia]], and [[New Zealand]].”

    That was in 2001. None of these lines remain in today’s entry. Which starts with:

    “ECHELON is a name used in global media and in popular culture to describe a signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection and analysis network”

    Comparing historical versions of wikipedia’s echelon entry is possibly watching the slow, choking grip of pr.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ECHELON&diff=561743525&oldid=368157188

  52. @ Conjunction: “Obama often speaks as if .. the USA is the benefactor of and main holder of wisdom amongst mankind.”
    You mean you didn’t know that? :)

  53. Arbed, at 12.27 p.m. I believe it that our police did try to storm the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. Steve Elibank made an FOI request about a memo sent to the government of Ecuador a note (unofficial) on 15 August 2012 from the British Embassy in Quito. It contained the following.

    “We have to reiterate that we consider continued use of diplomatic premises in this way, to be incompatible with the VCDR and not sustainable, and that we have already made clear to you the serious implications for our diplomatic relations.

    You should be aware that there is a legal basis in the UK – the Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987 – which would allow us to take action to arrest Mr. Assange in the current premises of the Embassy.

    We very much hope not to get to this point, but if you cannot resolve the issue of Mr. Assange’s presence on your premises, this route is open to us.”

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/assange#incoming-313501

  54. All eyes are on Maduro -

    http://diariodecaracas.com/mundo/maduro-podria-traer-edward-snowden-en-su-avion-venezuela

    English summary:

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023157514

    The route home might take a bit of calculation, I’d guess.

  55. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 4:15 pm

    O/T but this is terrible. It is about the loss of law in Syria and its replacement with Sharia law.

    There are two parts – the shooting in the head twice of a 14 year old boy by one of the rabbles in Aleppo. He had refused to give a free cup of coffee and made a joke about the Prophet returning.

    The second part is filmed in Saraqeb. It is of a flogging, fifty times with an electric cable, for the ring leader of a gang who had tried to steal a taxi driver’s car. The sentence followed a ‘hearing’ in a ‘Sharia court’. The others received forty lashes.

    These people are allies of Messrs Cameron and Hague and the video should be shown to all those MPs and others who express support for these rabbles and for arming them further.

    The boy killed for an off-hand remark about Muhammad – Sharia spreads in Syria
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23139784

    I am amazed that the BBC have carried this.

  56. They may be fundamentalist terrorist bastards but they’re our fundamentalist terrorist bastards, eh?

  57. AFAICS, no-one has explained that the Graun article was simply a summation of Madsen’s interview with a blog called Privacy Surgeon. Madsen there actually gives the geographical locations of all the British and European interception stations which serve the NSA:
    http://www.privacysurgeon.org/blog/incision/former-nsa-contractor-warns-of-murky-interception-arrangements/

  58. http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention/

    Green party politician Malte Spitz sued to have German telecoms giant Deutsche Telekom hand over six months of his phone data that he then made available to ZEIT ONLINE. We combined this geolocation data with information relating to his life as a politician, such as Twitter feeds, blog entries and websites, all of which is all freely available on the internet.

    By pushing the play button, you will set off on a trip through Malte Spitz’s life. The speed controller allows you to adjust how fast you travel, the pause button will let you stop at interesting points. In addition, a calendar at the bottom shows when he was in a particular location and can be used to jump to a specific time period. Each column corresponds to one day.

  59. neorefusaniki

    3 Jul, 2013 - 4:50 pm

    You said revolution, not me, N_, and as you point out, there was nothing Marxist about the dissolution of COMECON and the Warsaw Pact, which was merely a nice first step. Human rights is considerably more subversive than Marxism/Leninism and NATO was lucky to get it under control. My question was, can you dust it off to use against the other totalitarian regime, the one that took over where the Soviets left off?

    Sure, CIA knows how to run a putsch, but they wouldn’t dare use human rights to start one. They’re scared of human rights. CIA was very nervous when Carter glommed onto human rights and they pushed back against Germany’s enthusiasm for Helsinki Final Act Point VII. They wanted predictable ‘stability’ as much as the Soviets did. And even now CIA assets like Otpor make a point of telling you that human rights is bullshit.

    So we’re talking apples & oranges.

  60. Flaming June

    3 Jul, 2013 - 4:52 pm

    Morsi and others are under house arrest and a military coup is under way according to Sky’s Tim Marshall who is a fair and well informed reporter in my opinion.

  61. Another great article Craig. Thanks for all the great links Arbed, John Goss and Passerby.

    A N_ said, its not going be the middle class spurning change, but the young disaffected long term unemployed, the ‘cuts’ generation.

    Those young who persuade themselves that this world of many is still a good bet to raise a family and play society, will get further disaffected.

    Whether they will have the gumption or zest of the Egyptians is questionable. What we are seeing is that any opposition that is forming today, to any of their major policies or politi, is being instantly divided, infiltrated by undercover police who can’t keep it in, and split by their efforts.

    Any change will come rapid, as Tunesia it will be an emotionally moving issue and it will be startling to see.

    All those who still think everything is fine will wake up and hopefully realise that we are approaching the worst, a pseudo democratic, fascist dictatorship.

  62. F.June wrote:

    I am amazed that the BBC have carried this.

    Why? It fits their running mad muslims narrative, never mind the fact the madder they are the more closely allied to UK, US and Israeli hegemonic control aims throughout the region. Do you think the average reader or viewer will connect the perpetrators of these outrages with Hague and Cameron’s pet rebels, kept in cash, weapons and mind-bending ultimately fatal pharmaceuticals at Brit taxpayers expense?

    Religion in adults is of course a clear manifestation of mental disorder, but in no way is this observation limited to the muslim faith alone.

    Quite separately. It also has to be considered that NATO is now very much out of control and a menace to public safety; the EU too, long a political and economic partner to NATO is fully exposed as a subsidiary organisation of the US-run military alliance, a costly gargantuan public relations exercise glossing over naked US control over western Europe.

    There is not an institution, from UK domestic parliament, government and law, to international organisations, culminating in the UN, that is fit for purpose. Extremely aggressive mass de-population (of us too, not just faraway dark-skinned foreigners) whilst populations are still numerous enough to represent a threat to the elites and their demonic agenda, seems an obvious next step, if it is not already underway and well-advanced.

  63. Really does look like a suicide at first glance, given the wife’s attempt to explain it away as at best a physical surprise, and police having no interest in suspecting foul play.

    Looks like he might have been blackmailed or too guilty about something still publicly unknown.

  64. Another point about Madsen. They would say that he’s a maverick, its obvious.
    Exactly because he’s been a maverick does not mean he’s not right for once, but its convenient to call him that, to be expected as it is part of their repertoire to misinform and split opinions, infamy has always had its jealous detractors.

  65. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:07 pm

    Craig; Thanks for undertaking the subject. However, I think you are being little hard on Guardian.

    They seem to have followed the NSA disclosures pretty well, as opposed to the other paper receiving the scoop, WaPo. I think the concern arises from Madsens background and it seems having some credibility in a world declaring in near unison that Snowden should be apprehended and tried. Just my two cents.

  66. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:09 pm

    edit;

    ‘having credibility in the face of a world declaring in near unison that Snowden should be apprehended and tried, is extremely essential at this stage of the game. Just my two cents.

  67. Y@Neorefusenik

    You said revolution, not me, N_,”

    Yep – sorry about that. I realised after I’d posted that my use of inverted commas could make it look as if I was (wrongly) quoting you, which I wasn’t trying to do! I should have rewritten, in at least some places replacing the word ‘revolution’ with maybe ‘popular upsurge’, or some term we could both accept as accurately summarising the kind of thing you were talking about. So, apologies for putting words into your mouth here!

    “Human rights is considerably more subversive than Marxism/Leninism and NATO was lucky to get it under control. My question was, can you dust it off to use against the other totalitarian regime, the one that took over where the Soviets left off?”

    This is not the place for me to go on at length about the gulf between Marx and Lenin, but there is an enormous one.

    But the role you give to the subversive power of already-formed ideas (can I say ideologies?)…I don’t agree with that. Ideas that assist with popular movements bringing about radical change have got to come out of people’s experiences and their growing awareness of what those experiences are about. I mean the proletarianised existence of the vast majority, maybe 80% of the population. The culture at the moment is so deeply schizoid; there has to be a massive rejection; it can’t have the truth injected into it, to be nurtured and grow within it, even conflictually. I don’t really want more people to watch the TV news; it wouldn’t be a big step forward. I would say human dignity is a more useful idea than human rights in the usual sense, or the ‘rights of man’ as they used to be called. ‘Human rights’ is a soiled term. If a movement opposed them to the rights of property, things would be a bit better, though.

  68. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

    Jim Roberts of Reuters quotes Sacha Llorenti Soliz, the Bolivian ambassador to the UN, as also using the charged term “kidnapped” to describe the aeroplane incident. (The Bolivian vice president, Alvaro Garcia, said overnight that Evo Morales had been “kidnapped by imperialiam“.)

    Bolivia’s UN Amb.: “We’re talking about the president on an official trip after an official summit being kidnappedhttp://t.co/weqLOi1VAP
    — Jim Roberts (@nycjim) July 3, 2013

  69. Better way to describe what happened to the Bolivian President’s plane is that it was HIJACKED!

    Looks like our so-called counter terrorists have turned into the real thing in spades.

  70. who in the world says that Snowden should be apprehended and tried Ben? would it be all those who signed petitions thanking him for disclosing their fascists traits?
    or is it just those who are beginning to realise that their own operations will be highlighted, not just that of the all knowing super-owl US.

    If Snowden is cornered and imprisoned, the real extend of this release will not see the light of day. Snowden knew this, why else disperse the material to journalists such as GG?
    He has a safety lever somewhere and the US, and its best bitch, Putin, sorry, couldn’t resist, know that they can’t get to it. Snowden has not accepted Putins deal, and the material that is out there is being held back by the Guardian and Spiegel, I’m sure of it.

    If he has sent it to the paper in electronic form, it would have been intercepted and the extend of his spying is already known.

    But the US says that they are unsure about the extent of his release of taxpayer paid for information, so he must have sent the lot by post, or handed it over to middle men.

    Still the world is focussing on the person of Snowden, nobody cares a flying fart as to what he actually has released and what the nature of it is.

  71. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:51 pm

    “or is it just those who are beginning to realise that their own operations will be highlighted, not just that of the all knowing super-owl US.”

    I think you have the same elements in the UK. Bloggers cover this with snark, or objectivity?

    In the US it’s the Obamabots versus their derogation ‘firebaggers’. The Obots are so highly invested in Obama they don’t want to spoil his Xmas pudding, (his leagacy).

    Then there’s Congress, whose sleepy tenure (or worse, knowingly complicit) are all worried about their careers in politics.

    More disclosures need to be made from the Powerpoint to make some critical mass. All there is is speculation and finger-pointing. We need some real juice to get this Full Monty.

  72. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 5:56 pm

    Trowbridge: HIJACKED is what Samuel Clemons called ‘Lightning’ as the perfect word, as opposed to the near perfect ‘lightning bug’ word.

  73. This is bound to go to the UN after UNASUR.

    Ideally the ALBA countries would break off relations with the US and all of its military allies. That’s what I’d like to see: a derecognition of the US regime, by an increasing number of the world’s countries; formal steps to dissociate from it and to impose sanctions on it as the criminal entity that it is. Let’s recall this is not the first time that Bolivia stands as an example for the world.

    However, this would mean a lot of embassies closing, and I wouldn’t fancy Julian Assange’s chances.

    So…was the plane searched?

    RT are reporting that the Austrian authorities grounded it and ‘decided’ to search it, which I don’t think they have any right to do, under international law, unless permission is given. (I may be mistaken on this point. I thought a presidential plane, carrying a head of state on a diplomatic mission, counted as extra-territorial.) RT are further reporting that Morales did give permission for a search.

    Another point: what terribly poor surveillance they must have at (mafia-controlled) Sheremetevo airport, if there could be any confusion about whether or not Snowden boarded the plane. Are they suggesting that he and his associates wanted to make it look as though he boarded the plane, or may have done, whereas in fact he didn’t? Fiendishly resourceful people, eh, to outwit the FSB, formerly known as the KGB?

    Because how on earth were Russian security unable to confirm that no, Snowden did not board the plane, unless they were deceived?

    Was there a little bit of corridor between the men’s toilet and the door through which Morales’s baggage was moved out to the plane, uncovered by any camera? Were the FSB unable to ascertain whether Snowden had had a case of the runs which required several hours on the pot (maybe they thought it would be indecent to look over the cubicle doors?), or, on the other hand, whether he’d made a quick dash across the corridor to hide among the suitcases before they were taken into the plane’s hold? Or what? As usual, it doesn’t stack up.

    If Russian security thought he might have got onto the plane, they’d have gone looking for him at the airport. Yes, even in the toilets.

    What we do know, and I’m repeating myself here, is that major problems may soon beset world trade.

  74. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 6:08 pm

    N_; They were given permission to search by the Bolivians. It’s a false security, because it’s similar to a search warrant they send out for, while they keep you in custody they prevent anything from being removed, until the warrant arrives. In this case they refused to allow their departure until permission given.

  75. My Goodness, but the Bolivians are steaming… This is the speech their VP, Alvaro Garcia Linero, gave last night, surrounded by the entire Bolivian cabinet (rush translation into English):

    https://hiredknaves.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/bolivian-vice-president-alvaro-garcia-linera-today-certain-countries-of-europe-are-subjected-to-the-most-terrible-ignominious-obscurantism/

    “it is no longer the time of empires, because it is not the time of colonies; today is the time of peoples, today is the time of dignity.”

    Love that line! :)

  76. So are the Germans, Arbed, absolutely fuming.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609.html

    has anybody heard of Clarke, he’s not answering my emails, last I knew was that he’s fixing computers, saying that he’s going to be ‘as quick as he can’.

    let us know he’s OK.

  77. @Ben, I wouldn’t be so sure about any aspect of this.

    Certainly if Russian security thought someone might have flown off on a plane, but weren’t sure, and it was important to them, they’d search the airport.

    If Edward Snowden is ‘free’ in the transit area, airside, then presumably he is communicating with people who are following news reports, and he has access to them himself, so I wonder why he hasn’t at any time said publicly “Hey everyone, here I still am in Moscow; I’m not on anyone’s plane!”

    We don’t know whether he is at Sheremetevo or where he is.

    Nor do we know whether he is at liberty, even in the restricted sense of being able to walk around an airport transit area.

    We do know that Obama implied that US forces wouldn’t kidnap Snowden if he flew over US territory on his way to Cuba, and today’s events should make it clear to those to whom it wasn’t already clear that that was a dirty lie by the head of state of a criminal regime which rejoices in sticking two fingers up at international law.

  78. The European Commission could solve many of these problems by granting Snowden asylum in Brussels, and appointing him to the EU-USA Joint Committee to investigate all the problems Anglo-American data-mining is causing US-EU trade relations.

    He certainly is well informed about what has been going on, and by giving him asylum, it would tale his whereabouts, criminality, and safety out of the picture.

  79. Enlarging on my earlier terse comment.

    It is the religions and forms of religions which posit that they and their fellow followers are better, superior, morally or in any number of ways, or more doctrinally correct in their own interpretation of their own ‘big magic book’ than those of of another religion or of no religion, that are particularly dangerous in themselves and dangerous in that they can be used for nefarious indirect ends. The British state (formerly known as England) has always used religious extremists and extremism in this way, from John Knox in 16thC Scotland to protestant settlers in Ireland, to the present Syrian rebels, in a way ‘religifying’ disputes and issues about sovereignty, equality, freedom of conscience and freedom from external influences and control; adding destabilising irrationality and fear to matters which would otherwise be clear cut external interference and rejected overwhelmingly as detrimental and insulting to the populace at large in the target country or region, without the impenetratable religious fog and smokescreen masking such machinations as well as providing a recourse for the weak of mind as well as the calculating and exploitative to fall into predictable and thus controllable lines of (self) division. “Isms and Schisms”.

  80. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:07 pm

    Kempe
    3 Jul, 2013 – 10:41 am

    More Troll shite Kempe:

    “Sorry if I have this wrong but I thought Diplomatic Immunity guaranteed free passage and immunity from prosecution to particular individuals. Snowden is not an acredited [sic] diplomat so does not have immunity from arrest.”

    A deliberate misrepresentation of Craig’s post which had nothing to do with diplomatic immunity for Snowden.

  81. The US pretty much have copied Israel’s operation methods. Deny everything, ignore International Law and accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being terrorists… And we support their insane policies.
    And as for what they try to tar Wayne Madsen with, its just the same as they do with all whistle blowers.Blacken their names, make whatever they say sound conspiratorial and keep them as media clowns to continually take the piss out of.
    I’ve read quite a bit of his stuff. He seems to be a very analytical bulldog. Doesn’t let go.I’ve no way of knowing if what he says is true, but quite a few things so far have been.

  82. Craig,

    Its all old news!.

    “EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT Session document”

    11 July 2001

    “This report makes an important point in emphasising that Echelon does exist, but it stops short of drawing political conclusions. It is hypocritical for the European Parliament to criticise the Echelon interception practice while taking part in plans to establish a European Secret Service.”

    http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm

  83. “NSA/GCHQ – The New Praetorians and the New Cold War”

    http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/07/nsagchq-the-new-praetorians/

  84. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:34 pm

  85. One little itsy bitsy point is going missing in all the comments so far;

    How did the incompetent US spy apparatus that is so good at spying on anyone who talks on the phone, or types on the internet, somehow get the wrong end of the stick (thinking Snowden is secreted on the plane) and put the word out about Evo’s ride ?

    Also of interest is how quick the toadies jumped into action by denying their air space, and how come Austria was chosen? Also why has Austria shown such a contempt for Bolivia?. Clearly someone is playing the whole bally lot of these bully and coattail hangers thereof for chumps, and wank hands.

    However, no doubt the decision for interdiction of Evo’s ride and subsequent search of it further highlights that this decision ought to have been taken at the highest authority levels. Thus who is the tosser now? This has so far been kept secret.

    Although there could exist the theory that pre-emptive sucker punching poor Evo, has been designed in the way of proving how earnestly US is chasing its fugitive, in a fashion after Wyatt Earp and Doc Halliday. This episode is in fact an attempt to warn anyone who may be entertaining the idea of helping Snowden.

    Finally we didn’t get here into this lawless world today , without the assiduous disregard of the laws, convention, treaties, and morality by zionistan for the last seven decades. The current state of the lawlessness could only have been possible, and so prevalent by the ziofuckwits running amok and making lawlessness so acceptable, and tolerable.

  86. I hope the silver lining to all this is that the South American countries will come together to find a solution to Snowden and present it as a joint solution so that the eventual country is not singled out for persecution. I can imagine that once settled a Russian military plane could render him to his asylum. Belarus is now being mentioned as a possible host.

    I’d love to know the contents of the Correa-Biden call. Could it be that Assange’s safe passage was discussed? Since Correa seems so satisfied with that call.

  87. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:50 pm

  88. @Someone (8:25pm)

    A bit slow on the uptake then the EU Parliament: New Zealander Nicky Hager layed out ECHELON in excruciating painstaking detail in his 1996 book Secret Power, focusing mainly on the NZ side of operations, and made it clear too that it targetted diplomatic communications as well served US commercial espionage ends, subverted legitimate governments and made regular enough forays into civilian chatter as to be a grave concern to everyone, everywhere. Duncan Campbell had been plugging away at the subject for at least a decade before that, as well as other closely related subjects from the Zircon and other spy satellites to the useless, ineffectual first version of the UK Data Protection Act. I think Craig Murray pointed in a recent blog post that something like ECHELON dates back to the the 1940s, having roots in US-UK WW2 joint activities and was common knowledge in diplomatic and government particularly for many decades. The current programs are like echelon on stilts and echelon is bottom rung old hat.

  89. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 8:57 pm

    This is not good news….

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-digital-misuse-ban-ki-moon

    “The former NSA contractor Edward Snowden misused his right to digital access and has created problems that outweigh the benefits of public disclosure, the UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon has said.

    Speaking to a gathering of the foreign affairs committee of the Icelandic parliament in Reykjavik on Tuesday, Ban said that in his personal opinion “the Snowden case is something I consider to be misuse.” The UN chief added that the opening up of digital communications should not be “misused in such a way as Snowden did”.

  90. 24 January 2012

    “Google announces privacy changes across products; users can’t opt out”

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2837288/posts

  91. You apparently know the answer to your own question – i.e. the incompetent American spooks, despite all their machinery to help them out, guessed wrong about Snowden’s whereabouts, like when they guessed that they could get rid of the USSR by simply triggering Palme’s assassination or when the planned to get rid of Castro’s Cuba at JFK’s expense.

    As for Austria’s role, it has been in America’s pocket ever since the departure of the Red Army. Don’t forget that the Mad Austrian aka Josef Fritzl was set up first as Palme’s assassin.

    As for tossers now, I would look along NATO’s covert Gladio line from Stockholm to Vienna. Sweden’s FRA is the biggest eavesdropping asset it has on the continent.

  92. Doug Scorgie

    ….Snowden is not an acredited [sic] diplomat so does not have immunity from arrest

    Thanks for making me laugh, I nearly choked on my apple:

    Although you are being so charitable calling the “illustrious contributor” a troll. An asshat is a more appropriate terminology.

    The point you have picked clearly shows he/she has no fucking clue and has not read Craig’s post (this post is not about an obscure and highly specialist field) , however in its haste bashing the keyboard trying to earn a couple more pennies, seeing as it gets paid for the linage, by hasbara dept.

  93. Cryptonym,

    You can bet that Echelon has been upgraded, it still plays a big part of a greater whole that has many, many parts to it.

  94. Jesus, Ben, that’s weird.

  95. That was to Ben at 8.50pm

  96. I would look along NATO’s covert Gladio line from Stockholm to Vienna. Sweden’s FRA is the biggest eavesdropping asset it has on the continent.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    The mechanics:

    How come US came by the information about Snowden being on the plane? ie Clearly the US assets in Russia should command a high credibility for the US to kick in to action the stop and search procedure. However, the reverse could be also true; a flimsy passing remark has been picked up by the US, and taken to be true.

  97. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:38 pm

    Christian Science Monitor

    “Since Morsi’s election, the US has been oddly supportive of Morsi, muted in its criticism even when his government has prosecuted American NGO workers dispatched to Egypt to work on democracy promotion. Though the message of the Obama administration this week has been that “democracy” is about far more than elections, for much of the past year it has given the opposite impression.”

    Weird is exactly right, Dreoilin.

  98. My guess would be that Putin had his spooks put out messages about what Snowden et al were up to – what FRA picked up, and sent along to its Gladio contacts who got France, Portugal and Austria involved.

    Bildt is obsessed in gaining points with the tossers because of what FRA can do.

  99. “a flimsy passing remark has been picked up by the US, and taken to be true.”

    They have a bug or bugs in the transit area at Sheremetyevo airport and heard something that gave them hysterics – someone threw a freaker. And sent out the word to Europe, STOP THAT PLANE!

    (and no, I’m not joking – when you ‘run the world’, the last thing you’re thinking about when trying to catch a leaker is what’s legal or what’s acceptable under the Vienna Convention. Vienna what?)

    I sincerely hope UNASUR kick up blue holy murder.

  100. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 9:52 pm

    Ok, ok. It was just a big international misunderstanding resulting in the re-routing of the flight to Austria, where they wouldn’t allow it to depart until searched….all is forgiven.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/edward-snowden-asylum-93694.html

  101. Someone – 9:02 pm

    Scrooo Google! I use https://ixquick.com/uk/ and have deleted any and all “accounts” online, other than gravatar and my Irish email.

  102. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    Trowbridge H. Ford
    3 Jul, 2013 – 2:58 pm

    “Thanks, N.., certainly sounds fishy, and I shall look into it.”
    “Wonder if he, like Rawlings, was asking too many questions about what was going around Oxbridge.”

    “It’s clearly open season on any possible trouble.makers, as I well know by narrowly escaping assassination last Thursday night at about 12:40 PM. If I had only stood up when the killer with a beam light, laser pistol shined it into the window next to my bed, I wouldn’t be doing this.”

    Another imposter post???

  103. Nah, Doug, he’s 008, semi-retired.

  104. Trowbridge, do you have any ideas on how this Snowden situation might have a connection, however tenuous, with the disappearance of Harold Holt?

  105. Who is the imposter poster, Doug Scorgie, N..for asking me if there is in the alleged suicide some foul play, or me for stating it looked fishy, would investigate, and did so – concluding that Professr JohnTiler apparently committed suicide for unknown reasons?

    Or am I alone the Imposter poster for claiming that I was almost assassinated – what I have complained about to the FBi for trying to set me up for something, and going to the police here three times, the last time to 911 which has apparently provided officer Bryce to keep an eye on where I live?

    Which is it?

  106. Oh, I see others have joined in to discredit me.

    I am no one’s spook, and am completely retired.

    And Jemand, if you tried to tie it to Gough Whitlam’s political disappearance, it might be worth answering,

    You guys will have to work harder to be taken as serious trolls.

  107. “Or am I alone the Imposter poster for claiming that I was almost assassinated – what I have complained about to the FBi for trying to set me up for something, and going to the police here three times, the last time to 911 which has apparently provided officer Bryce to keep an eye on where I live?”

    Actually it was because you thought 12:40 PM was night that got me wondering.

  108. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 10:40 pm

    Flaming June
    3 Jul, 2013 – 4:15 pm

    “The boy killed for an off-hand remark about Muhammad – Sharia spreads in Syria”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23139784

    “I am amazed that the BBC have carried this.”

    Don’t be amazed Mary. If its from the BBC its from MI6

    This appalling activity is not Sharia law

    Don’t be taken in

  109. As for you, Fred, you will have to provide more than a miscalculation in typing the time,12:40 AM, to make out I am nuts.

    And the earlier threat was at around 12:30 AM Tuesday.

    One apparently has to have everything perfect to be simply ignored on this site.

  110. “As for you, Fred, you will have to provide more than a miscalculation in typing the time,12:40 AM, to make out I am nuts. ”

    I didn’t say anything about nuts. Just thought you might be an imposter that’s all.

    What makes you think you are nuts?

  111. “What’s a £1 billion fraud worth? A suspended sentence”

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2013/07/03/whats-a-1-billion-fraud-worth-a-suspended-sentence/

  112. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:07 pm

    @ Someone (20h25), who regales us with :

    ““EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT Session document”

    11 July 2001

    “This report makes an important point in emphasising that Echelon does exist, but it stops short of drawing political conclusions. It is hypocritical for the European Parliament to criticise the Echelon interception practice while taking part in plans to establish a European Secret Service.””
    _________________

    Sorry for correcting a post which might otherwise give a misleading impression (purely innocently, I’M SURE), but the above quotation is not from the Main Report of the EP’s Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System but from one of the several Minority Reports appended to the Main Report, signed by 2 members of the full 34 member Committee (Patricia Mc Kenna and Ilka Schroeder.

    These words do not, of course, appear in the Resolution adopted by the European Parliament pursuant to the Report.

    Just thought I’d clear that up for the edification of the reading public :)

  113. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:10 pm

    @ Fred and Trowbridge:

    I know you are not trolls and would hate to see you being accused of being such. So please stop this silly mini-quarrel and stop disrupting this thread.

    Thank you!

  114. [Jon/Mod: removed, abusive]

  115. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:13 pm

    “Thank you!”

    Pot/Kettle

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:16 pm

    President Morales is a blusterer and I predict that he will find some very good reason for very regrettably not delivering on his offer of asylum.

    I further predict that his fellow El Presidente, Rafeal Correa, is at this very moment thinking furiously about how to retreat gracefully – and also very regrettably, from his bluster in the matter of Julian Assange.

    I fear that some of the regulars on here will soon have to be looking for new heroes.

  117. Dreoilin

    ixquick/startpage seem to be secure search engines if you believe them. Of course they could be a front for some spooks but even if they are the worst that’s happened is you’ve cut out the middle-man (Google) so I can’t see any harm in using it (and I do among others).

    If you use ixquick/startpage via https then your search terms won’t be flying down the wires in clear text for anyone to see. If the spooks have obtained their private encryption keys though then they’ll be decoding all that traffic in real time. Normal https security is no security at all if the watcher steals or buys the private key.

    Which brings me to Diffie-Hellman key negotiation also known as “(perfect) forward security”. All modern browsers support this but very few web sites use it. With Diffie-Hellman even if the spooks have the private key and monitor the entire connection they cannot normally decode your encrypted transmission by any known method. – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie%E2%80%93Hellman_key_exchange

    So who does use this? Step forward “Google” for one. When you make an https connection to Google an exceptionally high grade of encryption will be negotiated with your browser. Nobody spies on Google without being part of their club it seems.

    Interestingly https://duckduckgo.com (the other main private search engine besides ixquick/startpage) also uses Diffie-Hellman so searches on it should be highly secure (unless they also are a front for the spooks).

    Anyway I just thought it interesting, Google will use the most secure encryption (even against those in possession of Google’s private keys) when you make an https connection to their servers.

    If all webservers turned on Diffie-Hellman (it is usually explicitly turned off) then decoding “civilian” encrypted traffic would probably be beyond any agency anywhere. At least for now.

    There is an extra cpu overhead on the servers to support this form of encryption but not enough it seems to me to explain why it is relatively rarely deployed.

    I am surprised that ixquick/startpage don’t support this form of encryption as it makes their private keys worth a lot of money. I’ve thought of emailing them and asking why but thought better of it.

  118. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:18 pm

    That should have been “regretfully” and not “regrettably”, of course.

  119. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:25 pm

    @ Fred

    I shall deliver good advice to you whenever I feel you need it, and this is one such occasion. Come on, lighten up, you know it makes sense!

  120. Thanks v much, Anon. All information gratefully received!

    I’ve just been reading this

    http://www.zdnet.com/six-ways-to-protect-yourself-from-the-nsa-and-other-eavesdroppers-7000016860/

    and at the end he says

    “If we really want to protect our privacy on the net what we need is more than better technology, we need fundamental changes in our laws and how we enforce the privacy laws we do have. Then, and only then, will we have a fighting chance of keeping our privacy on the Internet.”

    which is self-evident. But doesn’t give me much hope.

  121. “The boy killed for an off-hand remark about Muhammad – Sharia spreads in Syria”

    The boy had asked for payment for the glass of tea he had served to his killers. Hence he was shot dead, but reporting this as it is, then would clarify the position of the “rebels” and their ruthless exploits, be it; demanding a cup of tea wit menaces, or robbing the contents of the households that their occupants have fled the area due to the said “rebels” activities (indiscriminate bombing, and shooting), or going out on a jolly shooting, rocketing and bombing the crap out of Syrian infrastructures, and people.

    The same report contained the tale of a car-jacker getting fifty lashes of electricity cable for jacking some poor bastards ride. However shooting the boy in the head for an every day expression, then is passed as “blasphemy”.

    The daily two minutes hate ritual towards all things Islam and Muslims in line with the established practice of blaming the Muslim victims for their demise, as the precedence set and as practised for the past seventy years, in zionistan. The cold blooded murder of a fourteen years old boy whom had asked for payment for the glass of tea he had served, is portrayed as his execution for his disrespect to the prophet, blasphemy.

    Ergo the message is pounded home yet again, here is the proof; Muslims are fanatical killers, as it is established! Further the free loading murderous hooligans who are getting supplied with arms and munition by the West and portrayed as “rebels” fighting for democracy in Syria are absolved from their crimes of robbing a cup of tea from a tea boy and killing the tea boy too.

    Truly a fucked up state of affairs, that is further perpetuated by the bbc, and the other medjia, all in the way of “informing” the populace, and letting them know how their tax funds are being spent to make the world a “safer” place.

  122. “I shall deliver good advice to you whenever I feel you need it, and this is one such occasion. Come on, lighten up, you know it makes sense!”

    “Don’t tell me what to do” is already one syllable words, hard to make it any simpler for a moron to understand.

    Now go fuck yourself pathetic failed troll.

  123. Bloody hell, Fedup (and Passerby) could you cut down on the verbiage? I don’t know who you think you’re lecturing, but the vast majority of people here are pretty well-informed and don’t need your lengthy essays.

  124. Just for the sake of clarification;

    Sahria could mean:
    Law, code, legislation, dispensation, fundamental principle, general rule, canons of good behaviour, and yes religious law.

    Although it is a bold step to take, but here we go;
    All laws across the planet are normally founded in the general rules and fundamental principles that are accepted and prevalent within the societies that the said laws are to be legislated for. Further the accepted norms, general rules and fundamental principles are based on or derived from religious codes, and ethics.

    Thus Sharia somehow is not unlike the current codes of; ethics, conduct, and morality, as well as the body of the laws we have and enjoy in this country. The racists have not yet fully realised the length of time the English have been living under Sharia, for a long time now. I say potato they say “al batates”, what is in a name? Evidently far too much, ask the poor women folk whom are mourning the murder of their men folk in the arc of blood, death, fire, and instability.

  125. doug scorgie

    3 Jul, 2013 - 11:59 pm

    I’m sure that everyone who matters in the security business knows where Snowden is and he is being closely watched.

    He is not going to sneak out of Russia “under the radar”.

    The forced landing of Bolivia’s presidential jet was a show of strength in my view, by USA agencies which would have known that Snowden was not on board and was a warning to any nation not to step out of line; especially if they want economic/security ties with North America.

    The Latin American countries that are inclined to offer Snowden asylum are all fragile democracies and economies under constant subversion by the USA and its proxies; a safe haven today but maybe not tomorrow for Snowden, Assange or anyone else.

    This boils down to power politics and one man’s life is worth jack-shit when it comes to the “national interest”.

    There is no morality, humanity or ethics in realpolitik.

  126. Bloody hell, Fedup (and Passerby) could you cut down on the verbiage? I don’t know who you think you’re lecturing, but the vast majority of people here are pretty well-informed and don’t need your lengthy essays.

    You are back on the sleuthing, again Charlie no Chan: Fedup, Passerby! (we have had this dance before). The “vast majority”, evidently now you are talking for the nation too, and complaining about the “the verbiage”.

    A- Who is the “vast majority” you have in mind? Those who keep commenting here , or those who read and never comment?

    B- Do you have a problem with space, trees chopped, or electricity used to create “the verbiage” and sustain it?

    C- So far as “who you think you’re lecturing” is concerned, certainly not you, after all you know everything, so it was not intended for you.

    d- What nerve did I hit, for you to start your assault and playing the banshee?

    E- Other than a continual sleuthing to find who is who (fuck me this is really the important issue after all in among the anonymous pseudonyms finding that the colonel did it, with a candlestick is a heck of job). Or lecturing Flaming June on how she should publish her comments, what is it exactly that you fucking contribute?

    PS So far as the “Sock puppet-ting” goes, that is to be abhorred on the same thread, ie, someone keeps posting the same shite nuder differing names on the same thread. However to start laying fucking rules down as to who should have what fucking name, seems to be an uncalled for intrusion into the personal domain of others don’t you think?

    PPS there seems to be a drive to discount differing individuals and classifying these as a single person, that is all the rage among some of those commenting on this blog, I have been taken for some “steel fuckwit”, and then some “other tosser”, and “so forth”, seems to be an OCD affliction with some who comment around here.

  127. One apparently has to have everything perfect to be simply ignored on this site.

    You seem to have a point there, count me in with imperfect lot, we are at a disadvantage amidst the body of knowledge that seem to be brain farting away and putting everyone else right. Not forgetting to be “admiring” each other to boot.

    Finally, how come you know so much about Sweden?

  128. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 12:29 am

    You are nit-picking Fed-up. Get a grip.

  129. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 12:40 am

    Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)
    3 Jul, 2013 – 8:57 pm

    “This is not good news….”

    No it is not.

    However it does not surprise me. Ban Ki Moon has, in my view been a puppet of the USA for years through blackmail and threats towards him and his family.

    The western media portray him as a human rights champion, an international law champion; he is neither.

    He is a mere human-being manipulated by and compromised by the security services.

    They have the dirt on him.

  130. Dreoilin

    Just to add another curiosity. If Google use the highest encryption without exception then which one of the big players uses the lowest? Step forward Microsoft. Seems (based on published independent monitoring) you can sometimes even end up with an “encrypted” connection some teen cracker could break with an antique Sinclair ZX80. Microsoft also never use Diffie-Hellman.

    All https connections are not the same.

  131. You are nit-picking Fed-up. Get a grip.

    No mate I am fucking sick of unduly to get fucked around!

    Nothing to say other criticising those who actually think, or want to contribute, that is not fucking on, here I have already poked fun at it.

  132. Could I point out to you, Fedup, that I wrote, “Fedup (and Passerby)” to include Passerby in what I said, and that I made no remarks at all to you about sock puppets.

    What nerve did I hit, I wonder?

    I believe I was reiterating what Jon said to you on the UN thread

    “and if you can explain your views more clearly in less words, I think it would be helpful.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/work-for-the-un/comment-page-6/#comment-415450

    Oh, and Jon addressed it to “Passerby/Fedup” but I don’t recall you objecting at the time. [Correct me if I'm wrong.]

  133. “here I have already poked fun at it.”

    You tried.

    I’ve left a note on that thread about punctuation and how it clarifies what people write. Especially when they’re quoting from elsewhere.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pandering-to-racism/comment-page-5/#comment-416301

  134. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 1:00 am

    Someone
    3 Jul, 2013 – 11:05 pm

    “What’s a £1 billion fraud worth? A suspended sentence”

    Absolutely spot-on:

    “A college student with no criminal record was jailed for six months on Thursday for stealing a £3.50 case of bottled water during a night of rioting.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8695988/London-riots-Lidl-water-thief-jailed-for-six-months.html

  135. Thanks again, Anon. I hope to be off Microsoft by Christmas! (or so I’m told)

  136. Hmm after a bit more checking, Microsoft mail servers will use exceptionally secure Diffie-Hellman if absolutely forced to by client. No available browser or addon (as far as I can find with a quick search) will force this but Microsoft will support it if you have one that does…

    How the Microsoft servers do this is by supporting Diffie-Hellman as least preferred option. It will then only be selected by a client which refuses anything other than Diffie_Hellman. Interesting. Well to me anyway if nobody else :-)

    Information gathered mainly from https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/index.html

    Bottom Line: It is possible to make a probably spook-proof highly secure connection to Microsoft servers but not with your standard unmodified browser.

  137. Cryptonym. 7 26pm

    “…they and their fellow followers are better, superior, morally or in any number of ways, or more doctrinally correct in their own interpretation of their own ‘big magic book’ than those of of another religion or of no religion…”

    Here’s the late great Dave Allen on religion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-Lp0M1r6o

  138. OBarnum and Co. threw perception to the dogs and simply went gangster on Evo Morales.

    Simultaneously shoving a really big cream pie in the world’s face.

  139. @N_, Yeah, dignity’s the greatest. Dignity was the cri de coeur of the nascent Arab risings. So happens that the word dignity is in the preamble of both the ICCPR and the CESCR, since dignity, like peace and development, is another way of rolling all rights together into a word.

    In all the recent popular uprisings, the rhetoric and substantive demands were shot through with human rights stuff. Is that osmosis from clever propaganda? I tend to think it’s people availing themselves of an ethical framework that gives them a way to talk about state predation. Latin America caught on best, the Mideast pretty well, and the US only dimly, and that partly accounts for what each rising accomplished.

    HR’s soiled, yeah, in a sense. As Chomsky sez, when states talk about HR, it’s often casuistic bullshit signifying nothing. On the other hand, when humans start talking about human rights, that’s trouble. The throw-weight of human rights depends on their assimilation into public discourse.

    IMO rights fans and fans of class struggle sometimes wind up talking past one another, unnecessarily so. When you mention property rights, you put your finger on an interesting wrinkle in human rights doctrine. The CESCR in Article 1(2) mentions international law in connection with resource rights and then in Article 25 goes on to say nothing may impair the peoples’ resource rights. It subordinates legal property protections to peoples’ [collective] resource rights. It’s another stick to beat the state with. Everybody can get their licks in.

    Very thought-provoking, thanks for weighing in.

  140. “The Latin American countries that are inclined to offer Snowden asylum are all fragile democracies and economies under constant subversion by the USA and its proxies..”

    They are certainly constantly threatened by US subversion. In Obama’s time Honduras and Paraguay have both been take over by US backed gangsters and the President of Ecuador was nearly assassinated.

    On the other hand how robust do you consider democracy in the USA to be?
    And does it not strike you that with fifty million people on foodstamps, and millions more ineligible for health care, with unemployment, in real statistics, pushing 23% and a trillion dollars in student loans outstanding, there may be a wee bit of trouble coming down the ‘pike there?

    Or do you hew to the notion that Americans are so dumb that they will put up with anything?

    Snowden will be fine. He has already done more for his country and his world than most of us dream of doing in long lives. His name will live forever.

    It is a sad commentary on, not just the governments, but the peoples of countries which offered Kropotkin, Mazzini, Marx and Bakunin asylum that they now live in hope of earning tips from tyranny and turn in their own countrymen to torture and life imprisonment (without charge or trial) for the privilege of being given american boot leather to lick.

  141. “We have to grasp, as Marx and Adam Smith did, that corporations are not concerned with the common good. They exploit, pollute, impoverish, repress, kill, and lie to make money. They throw poor people out of homes, let the uninsured die, wage useless wars for profit, poison and pollute the ecosystem, slash social assistance programs, gut public education, trash the global economy, plunder the U.S. Treasury and crush all popular movements that seek justice for working men and women. They worship money and power.”

    ― Chris Hedges, The Death of the Liberal Class

    “The corporations that profit from permanent war need us to be afraid. Fear stops us from objecting to government spending on a bloated military. Fear means we will not ask unpleasant questions of those in power. Fear permits the government to operate in secret. Fear means we are willing to give up our rights and liberties for promises of security. The imposition of fear ensures that the corporations that wrecked the country cannot be challenged. Fear keeps us penned in like livestock.”

    ― Chris Hedges, The Death of the Liberal Class

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/04/10/a-voice-worth-listening-to/

  142. A quickie:

    MasterCard breaks ranks in WikiLeaks blockade

    http://wikileaks.org/MasterCard-breaks-ranks-in.html

  143. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 2:42 am

    Dreolin; That’s important. WL needs financial support ASAP.

  144. Stopping a president’s plane is ridiculous – their bad.

    But spying on everybody’s communications data? I thought that was common knowledge anyway. Don’t people realize we live in a post-privacy age? Everybody who uses modern forms of communication is leaving large quanities of data about themselves on servers all over the world. No way can this all be protected by privacy laws. That’s how the system works and the benefits are that we have instant and almost free communications and access to vast sources of information. If service providers mine this data to send us pop-up ads for stuff they think we want to buy, or governments mine this data for their own purposes, then that’s the price we pay for using the system.

    One thing’s for sure: if the shit ever really does hit the fan and we lose the relative peace that keeps us all so cosy in the western world, I hope it’s The US and The UK that have the upper hand in the cyber war, rather than the Chinese or the Russians. Let alone the narco criminals or the Islamists. I know which tyranny I’d rather live under.

  145. Re Dreoilin, 4 Jul, 1:03 am: “I hope to be off Microsoft by Christmas (or so I’m told)”

    Anyone who wants to get off Microsoft can install Ubuntu in practically two shakes of a lamb’s tail. I have been using Ubuntu for five years and currently have it on three machines. All of them I converted simply by downloading the latest 64-bit version and putting it on a USB stick (you have to use a special installer if you are working from Windows, but this is provided). I have had no problems on any of the machines, except for the inital loss of the wireless connection on one of them (but the system identified it automatically for me & directed me how to self-install it).

  146. @DavidH 3:30 am: LOL. Whatever you are being paid is far too much. Sheesh.

  147. “LOL. Whatever you are being paid is far too much. Sheesh.”

    So what has Snowden told us except what bears do in the woods?

    World politics is getting more like Pro Wrestling all the time.

  148. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:25 am

    I was picturing what’s left of the army in control of the ZBC newsroom and the ConDems under house arrest. :)

  149. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:03 am

    When I said that I was surprised that ZBC were carrying those reports from Syria about the child being shot and the sharia court’s sentences, I meant that it did nothing to support the plans of Cameron and Hague plan to arm the rebels. In fact Paul Woods piece does the very opposite.

    You might remember my posts about John Baron MP speaking up about Cameron reserving the right to act without either consulting parliament (the two month + recess is approaching) or having a vote on the arming and other interventions.

    Mr Baron has now secured a debate to be held on July 11th.
    Should be interesting. The vote is predictable though. All those whips will be out.
    http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/#!/calendar/Commons/MainChamber/2013/7/11/events.html

  150. John Spencer-Davis

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:07 am

    Unless the story has been changed again since Craig’s comments, the replacement story *did* and *does* mention the intelligence sharing agreements, in similar terms to the original – towards the end of the text. Looks to me as if it is just Mr Madsen’s contribution that has been dropped out.

    Kind regards, John

  151. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:07 am

    O/T Hope all the night owls are following the health advice here!

    Good night’s sleep ‘protects heart’
    By Helen Briggs

    BBC News

    Sleep is good for the heart as well as the mind, say researchers

    Seven or more hours’ sleep a night boosts the benefits to the heart of a healthy lifestyle, research suggests.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23144438

    Five things that stop a good night’s sleep
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/0/20427553

  152. Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
    Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
    Everybody knows that the war is over
    Everybody knows the good guys lost
    Everybody knows the fight was fixed
    The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
    That’s how it goes
    Everybody knows

    Leonard Cohen

  153. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:33 am

    A thread from Medialens on George Galloway with a presenter from the Australian broadcaster, James Carleton.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1372893247.html

    which links to:

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/radical-uk-mp-george-galloway-speaks-to-breakfast/4798410
    which contains the audio link

    ABC is the state broadcaster?

  154. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:39 am

    A happy Independence Day to all Americans.

  155. Will EVERYBODY please tackle the arguments commenters make, and not refer to their motives for making them – which you cannot know – or that people are paid, or their personality traits, or somebody else.

    What interests me is the arguments people put. I think most of the imputations made on all sides are probably inaccurate, but even if they were accurate they are irrelevant. A man or woman may be a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit in the pay of the state of Israel, but may still make an argument that is absolutely correct. Please address the argument, not the person. Posts which fail to do this will be deleted when seen.

  156. Can anyone help me find something online? It appeared yesterday in the Guardian: an MI5 advert for intelligence analysts. It consisted of the purported intelligence record of an IA’s day, complete with its culmination, the arrest of some evil terrorists (obviously). Ironically, the information sources listed strongly confirmed the notion that nothing is sacred. I know this, but I would like it to reach a wider public.

  157. @Someone. 2 15 am

    “Fear keeps us penned in like livestock.”

    Here’s how is works. (2.5mins)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07at1bU89Q

  158. That’s glorious, Kibo. But a big question there, would a Border collie actually be any worse at running the country? They’re MUCH brighter than Cameron et al.

  159. “Dreolin; That’s important. WL needs financial support ASAP.”

    Yes, Ben, and look at this

    “The Supreme Court decision in Iceland was in favour of WikiLeaks and DataCell, but it did not include damages – deemed a separate issue under Icelandic law. A court claim for compensation is currently being prepared. Damages are estimated at 9 billion Icelandic Kronas (55.9m EUR or 72.7m USD).”

    Anything approaching that/those figures should make them a lot more secure.

  160. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:20 am

    The CEO of this company has put out a statement denying accusations that his company was involved in the supply or placing of the bug at the Ecuadorean Embassy.

    http://www.thesurveillancegroup.com/news/78-press-release

    http://www.thesurveillancegroup.com/

  161. “Russian femme fatale Anna Chapman proposes to Edward Snowden on Twitter”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2355316/The-spy-tagged-Russian-femme-fatale-Anna-Chapman-proposes-Edward-Snowden-Twitter.html

    A diplomatic solution? If they married in the airport transit zone, would that get him into Russia legally and instantly? President Putin could say straightfacedly, “I have no choice, under Russian law, but to admit him.”

    They could be Mr. & Mrs. Smith. Make movies.

  162. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:31 am

    Ref the announcement by Mr Patino that surveillance at the Ecuadorean Embassy has been discovered, this is the detail for the company which has denied involvement.

    http://companycheck.co.uk/company/04246863/THE-SURVEILLANCE-GROUP-LIMITED/company-summary

    The CEO is Timothy Young and has this history http://companycheck.co.uk/director/907609868

    Boasting of their prowess.
    http://www.thesurveillancegroup.com/surveillance

  163. Flaming July, and a happy Independence from America Day. Last plug.

    http://www.caab.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/july4th-20132.jpg

  164. For anyone who is interested in the question of Shannon and how many US troops have passed through there, I have received a reply from Shannonwatch as follows

    “Hi XXXXX,

    “First of all thanks for your ongoing support.

    “The troop figures are made available by the Minister for Transport who is asked on an annual (sometimes more frequent) basis to provide them. This is normally done through parliamentary questions.

    “Here’s a link to one such question/answer in 2010 (you will see it was asked on our behalf by Joe Costello who is now a member of the government that we have to drag the information out of!). If you search kildarestreet.com you will find other answers with troops information.

    http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-10-05.1347.0&s=number+troops+shannon#g1348.0.q

    Regards,
    XXXX”

  165. @ Craig

    “ad hominem”

  166. Why do they even bother to censor it? Everyone with half a brain could guess it anyway. Or do they fear the sheep might protest? Most people would probably think it is a good idea. “Terrorism” needs to be fought after all ^^

  167. “A man or woman may be a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit in the pay of the state of Israel,”

    Damn.

    That’s me rumbled.

    :.)

  168. Dragon,

    “Ironically, the information sources listed strongly confirmed the notion that nothing is sacred. I know this, but I would like it to reach a wider public.”

    Explain please,ta?

  169. This story appeared via Twitter, and I thought it was brilliant:

    “In 1999, the state-of-the-art in video game warfare was Quake 3 Arena – a fast and brutal game set in tight, cramped levels, where the aim was simply to kill, get killed, and repeat.

    “And among its various innovations – of which, arguably, there weren’t that many – was some rather clever artificial intelligence.

    “The ‘bots’ in the game – essentially the computer controlled players – were equipped with a kind of ‘learning’ AI.

    “In the game, the bots would watch your gameplay style, and adapt themselves as the fighting continued. The bots would effectively “think” their way to new tactics, discarding ideas that didn’t work and honing in on those that did.

    “Naturally this got some people thinking. If you left the bots playing, on their own, surely they would get better and better… and then what? Would they turn into the ultimate AI killing machine – or create a nightmare world of pain and suffering?

    “Well now we know.

    “They evolved world peace.

    “According to a mysterious message board thread from 2011, in about 2007 one gamer set up a server of 16 bots playing each other in an endless, pointless war.

    “In 2011, four years later, he remembered the server, and returned to it.

    “According to the thread on 4Chan, the gamer found that the bots had evolved to do absolutely nothing. Instead of running, shooting and killing, they had learned that the only way to ensure their survival was to abandon violence, and simply stand facing each other, forever – as one gamer in the thread put it, “waiting for a purpose or salvation”.

    “Nobody could win – but nobody could die. A peaceful stalemate had emerged naturally, after four bloody years.”

    However, that’s not the whole story … HuffPo is now claiming that the whole thing was a joke/hoax

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/01/quake-3-arena-world-peace_n_3529082.html

    :(

  170. @Flaming June:

    The CEO is Timothy Young and has this history http://companycheck.co.uk/director/907609868.

    Hmmm…Herefordshire. Now what else is based there?

  171. Jives – Looking for a web image of this ad. Just that. After all the denials and obfuscations, this is what they do, and they advertise it. In the Guardian.

  172. None of those, Dreoilin, I’m afraid. This was a 1/8 page ad in the print edition, consisting entirely of a spookspeak (for public consumption) running record of interceptions – of a number of sources – and surveillance, with some insertions into the text, in bold, of the job details. Think it was in the educational ads section, more bizarrely still. I don’t have the paper with me.

  173. TAFTA: Illegitimate EU-US Agreement Will Begin Under Total US Surveillance

    http://www.laquadrature.net/en/tafta-illegitimate-eu-us-agreement-will-begin-under-total-us-surveillance

  174. Actually, I *am* a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit but I absolutely refute any ridiculous suggestion that I have ever been paid by the State of Israel. Mossad are so stingy all I got was a complimentary Barbra Streisand CD, one ticket to Fiddler on the Roof and a poster of Steve Guttenberg.

  175. Let’s not rely on western news reports. Here is a poor English translation (sorry!) of an official press release by the Bolivian foreign ministry.

    Comments to follow in next post.

    ************************
    COMPLAINT BY THE PLURINATIONAL STATE OF BOLIVIA

    The Government of the Plurinational State of Bolivia denounces before the international community the act of aggression against itself, and specifically against President Evo Morales, constituted by the surprise withdrawal of overflight and landing permissions for the Falcon 900 presidential aircraft FAB 001, which on 2 July 2013 was on its return flight after the participation by the Head of State and his delegation at the Second Summit of the Forum of Gas Exporting Countries, held in the Russian Federation.

    The Government of Bolivia denounces before the international community the unfriendly and blatantly aggressive communication that the presidential aircraft was not authorised to cross the airspace of the Republics of France and Portugal.

    The Republic of Portugal announced the withdrawal of overflight and landing permissions and later amended its decision, authorising only overflights and thus preventing a landing for necessary refueling.

    For its part, the Republic of France announced the withdrawal of permission to fly, when the Bolivian Head of State was within a few minutes of entering French airspace.

    The attitude of the two countries is a violation of existing international agreements, undermining the life and safety of a Head of State, forcing the aircraft to make an emergency landing in the Republic of Austria and to make a flight plan rearranging the return of President Morales, with consequent damage to the presidential inauguration.

    The Government of the Plurinational State of Bolivia believes that these actions are discriminatory and intimidatory, and that they have been generated from the unfounded and malicious suspicions that the presidential aircraft was carrying US citizen Edward Snowden.

    La Paz, 3 July 2013
    ************************

  176. Not much relevant since I was last here except NR’s Daily Mail article about Anna Chapman, the pin up girl of the ‘false lag’ Manhattan 11 where Snowden’s disaffection all started, offering to marry him.

    The article doesn’t mention that when Putin volunteered to take the ‘Russian’ spies back, they agreed to be under his control, so the offer has the approval of Russia’s President.

    Looks like a way to solve his lack of residence, and a marriage contract may include a provision that he will get her approval for any new disclosures he wants to make.

    Remember she was the one who exposed the American spies, refusing to go along with any more FBI efforts to make them look like Russian ones, what made hacker Gareth Williams and Snowden himself go off the rails.

  177. One thing that’s interesting is that Bolivia doesn’t criticise Austria at all.

    Austrian President Heinz Fischer actually went to Schwechat airport in Vienna and spoke with Evo Morales there.

    So we have

    a) western reports that Bolivia has accused Austria of “kidnapping” Morales, of not allowing take-off until they had searched the plane, of an Austrian “decision” to search, of an Austrian search, and of Bolivian “agreement” to a search – all with slightly different spin, with our being left unclear not just regarding whether a search took place, but as to what on earth did or didn’t happen in Vienna

    b) a Bolivian statement which does not criticise Austria but which also, very interestingly, does not even mention Austria; for example, it doesn’t deny that there is any problem between the two countries, or thank Austria for allowing the unscheduled landing

    c) no word from Snowden or Wikileaks regarding Snowden’s whereabouts or recent movements.

    As I have said before, it’s very unlikely Snowden could have boarded a plane without the FSB (formerly known as KGB) knowing about it; and in the unlikely event that they were in any doubt, they would have searched the airport and, if he was still at the airport, found him.

    Russia is involved in the propaganda here.

    I doubt Snowden has been in the transit area at Sheremetevo airport in Moscow all this time. In fact, I doubt whether he has been in Russia all this time.

    One possibility is that he did go to Austria, although if so, then by now he is probably somewhere else, perhaps even back in Moscow, or in captivity, or dead.

    Bolivia and Austria seem to have done some kind of deal.

  178. And here is an English translation of the press release from the Austrian President’s office. Austria doesn’t seem to have a problem with Bolivia either, at least if we discount the patronising and arrogant title, very possibly related to racism.

    Everything below the asterisks is from the Austrian President’s office.

    *************************
    “Bolivian President Evo Morales can continue home”
    Statement by President Heinz Fischer

    3 July 2013

    Unplanned stopover by head of state after the departure from Russia. Some EU countries refused overflight permission because of the rumour that the former US intelligence official Edward Snowden was on board.

    Photo: President Heinz Fischer and his counterpart Evo Morales at Vienna airport: the Bolivian President expressed thanks “for the great hospitality of Austria!”

    Here is the President’s statement:

    “Today, at 7.45, President Evo Morales, whom I consider as a friend, contacted me by phone and informed me that he was at Schwechat airport, because the airspace of some European countries, especially Spain, had been denied to his aircraft, and he was waiting, pending further developments, in Vienna.

    I promised Evo Morales that I would meet with him at Vienna’s Schwechat airport, and also to use the opportunity to exchange views with him. In the meantime, the necessary air permits were received, and the Bolivian President could continue his journey home.

    He asked me in passing to express his great gratitude for the hospitality and for the excellent and proper treatment during his unplanned stay in the Republic of Austria and by the Austrian authorities,” said the President.

    *********************************

  179. Absolutely no reference to any search then, in either statement – or to any interest on the part of Austria regarding whether or not Snowden was on board.

    I await the next stage in the story with interest!

  180. Bolivia has REJECTED a formal US extradition request for Snowden:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-04/bolivia-rejects-u-s-request-for-snowden-following-flight-detour.html

    Note, too, that of the list of 21 countries that have applications for asylum from Snowden, the sidebar on this BBC article today says that only 4 have so far formally said No; the majority are fence-sitting, awaiting developments:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

    Of which, there’s a good possibility some will come from the 12-nation bloc of UNASUR holding an emergency summit today, who can now co-ordinate a response as a strong enough bloc to resist trade threats. This letters page from the Guardian makes clear what Ecuador’s actual position is, as well as why so very many of those applications were aimed at European nations, who all have very compliant extradition treaties with the US – so it would seem odd at first – but who now, with the brilliantly timed stories of NSA spying on EU business, can be pressured to act as a bloc (which is clearly happening and having some effect – the US-EU trade treaty negotiations been completely disrupted):

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/sovereignty-stake-snowden-saga

    There’s a VERY clever game of geopolitic chess being played here and, of course, it’s Wikileaks who are the ones who’ve been busy plotting all the Knight and Queen moves…

    God, I would give my eye-teeth to know who exactly put out that *rumour* that Snowden was on Morales’ plane to be picked up by the intelligence services and kick off this unholy fuck-up in intercontinental political relations. Oh, what’s that you say? Ecuador found a bug in their London embassy three weeks ago…?

    Ahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahha!

  181. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:28 pm

    France blames ‘conflicting information’…..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

  182. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:32 pm

    Arbed; Imagine the poutrage if Air Force 1 were denied flyover in the airspace of some Latin American country.

  183. Don’t think that who put out the rumors that Snowden might be on the President’s plane, Arbed, is anything to waste important teeth on.

    Just listen to the interview with Morales while in Moscow, and recall all the times America has read Russian messages on land lines, and microwaves to its detriment.

    Back in Soviet times, the KGB planted in those tunnel operations in Vienna, and Berlin, just what the American wanted to hear, and when the Anglo-Americans assassinated Palme, Putin had reassuring messages put on lines CIA was monitoring in Moscow.

    All Moscow had to do now was put out some rumors about what was happening with Snowden for Sweden’s FRA and Britain’s GCHQ to pick them up, and the spooks swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

    Western intelligence agencies are the slowest learners on the planet because they are always using the same methods to prove that they finally got it right.

  184. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:41 pm

    Memories of ECHELON…http://thebricspost.com/why-spy-on-a-trusted-ally/#.UdWJpODTLFJ

    “The US snooping on the EU, its most trusted ally, can therefore only mean one thing – this is about economic spying and about gathering economic information.

    Pretty soon negotiations for a far reaching free trade agreement between the EU and the US are about to start. Actually, preliminary negotiations – not to be underestimated – have already been going on for some years.

    The US is losing ground not just because of the economic crisis. Its economic power has been shrinking steadfastly long before the crisis started.

    It is a sign of its waning predominance that the US now finds itself in the embarassing situation of having to explain why it is bugging its own ‘trusted’ allies in Europe.”

  185. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    “Western intelligence agencies are the slowest learners on the planet because they are always using the same methods to prove that they finally got it right.”

    Yes, Trowbridge. Someone in the Agency made the system recommendations and now the purchase order has been paid for. Gotta push that square peg in the round hole, or my career ends here. Many examples of this in hdwe….The infamous Bradley comes to mind.

  186. Right, Ben, the West’s intelligence services have always put more emphasis upon systems, gizmos, and trade craft rather than just spies – why the KGB beat them hollow in the Cold War.

    If it had just been a spy war, Moscow would have won.

    In fact, Soviet spying helped loose it because it so overloaded the USSR with new technology that the system became increasingly unmanageable.

    Good example of the law of unintended consequences.

  187. doug scorgie

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:07 pm

    “(Reuters) – France’s external intelligence agency spies on the French public’s phone calls, emails and social media activity in France and abroad, the daily Le Monde said on Thursday.”

    “It said the DGSE intercepted signals from computers and telephones in France, and between France and other countries, although not the content of phone calls, to create a map of “who is talking to whom”. It said the activity was illegal.”

    “All of our communications are spied on,” wrote Le Monde, which based its report on unnamed intelligence sources as well as remarks made publicly by intelligence officials.”

    “Emails, text messages, telephone records, access to Facebook and Twitter are then stored for years,” it said.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-france-security-idUSBRE9630FS20130704

  188. Just a pathetic way for French intelligence to explain away why it, along with other countries’ agencies, was fooled about what was going on in and around Moscow.

  189. Here’s an English translation of the Bolivian Foreign Ministry’s press release about the US extradition request. Comments to follow.

    Can someone please improve the translation of the second paragraph?

    ************************
    THE SNOWDEN CASE

    The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Plurinational State of Bolivia expressed outrage and condemnation at the request for the arrest of US citizen Edward Snowden, preliminary to extradition, submitted by the Government of the United States of America on the same day that our President was illegally detained in Europe on unfounded suspicions that the said person was in the presidential aircraft.

    In this regard, it is clarified and emphatically reiterated that Mr Snowden never met the President in Russia and less, up in the aircraft; has at the present time not been present on Bolivian territory and, if he decides to enter or transit through the country, Bolivia would exercise the principles of sovereignty, independence and equality of states.

    It is reported that the requirement for the purposes of extradition detention violates the Framework Agreement signed with the United States in 2011 and the Extradition Treaty of 1995, in a clear violation of the principles governing international relations enshrined in the Constitution of the Plurinational State of Bolivia.

    So, the strange, illegal, unfounded and suggestive Request for Extradition of a person who is not in the territory of the requested State, shall be returned to the Government of the United States immediately and categorically.

    La Paz, 3 July 2013
    ***************************

  190. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:28 pm

    Trowbridge; Not sure it was unintended to break them with costs.

    I remember Reagan rolling out his posters showing the superiority of Soviet ICBM’s

    Of course, the ancient liquid-fueled Russkies were twice as big as the more efficient and techno-superior solid fuel rocketry.

    It illustrated his contempt for the truth, but he got his ‘Peacekeeper’ Loved that Orwellian name.

  191. @Doug – that Le Monde story makes me wonder whether there hasn’t been an agreement among the major western powers to bring it into the public consciousness that all activity on phone lines and the internet is monitored, and Snowden is just the means. (Those of us with a ‘critical’ bent have known for decades that the NSA listens to everything.)

    As for Snowden, it wouldn’t surprise me if he recently took a trip to a city renowned for its chocolate cake and Spanish riding school.

  192. I was talking about stealing technology across the economic spectrum, Ben, what spies like Gordon Lonsdale accomplished in spades, but created a complete mess when the command economy increasingly decentralized, creating a maze of problems throughout the system – what Gorby’s reforms only compounded.

  193. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 4:51 pm

    N_; 2nd graf. Just sounds like diplo-gobblygook to me. With all the cryptic back-and-forth on Ecuador, and the split-vote amongst the electorate, Bolivia’s population might be angry enough during the 24-hr news cycle to agree to asylum, but these things can’t happen that fast.

  194. “How NSA access was built into Windows”

    http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html

  195. @Ben – did you look at the Spanish? Sorry, I should have posted a link: http://www.rree.gob.bo/. It’s the press release entitled “COMUNICADO DEL MINISTERIO DE RELACIONES EXTERIORES DE BOLIVIA SOBRE EL CASO SNOWDEN”. Second paragraph:

    *******************
    Al respecto, se aclara y reitera enfáticamente que el Sr. Snowden nunca se entrevistó con el Presidente en Rusia y menos subió a la aeronave; no encontrándose al presente, en territorio boliviano y, si decidiera ingresar o transitar por este país, en ejercicio de los principios de soberanía, independencia e igualdad entre Estados.
    *******************

    Here’s a big question: where is Edward Snowden?

  196. The French Foreign Ministry has apologised. This is an official translation, this time.

    http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/bolivia/events-2586/article/bolivia

    ***********************
    The minister of foreign affairs telephoned his Bolivian counterpart to extend to him France’s apologies following the setback experienced by President Morales as a result of the delay in granting the president’s plane permission to fly over French territory. He provided him with the necessary clarifications regarding this incident.

    He underscored that the authorization to fly over French territory was granted as soon as the French authorities had been informed that the aircraft in question was that of President Morales. He also indicated to him that there had, of course, never been any intention of refusing President Morales’s plane access to our airspace; President Morales is always welcome in our country.

    Our relations with Bolivia are marked by trust and friendship. President Morales’s visit to France in March, marked by a very friendly meeting with President Hollande, provided an opportunity to underscore our shared political determination to give new impetus to the partnership between our two countries. In that spirit, the two ministers expressed their determination to continue strengthening French-Bolivian relations.
    ***********************

    It has been reported that Bolivian officials underlined that it was a French-manufactured plane, namely a Dassault Falcon 900 EX.

  197. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 5:09 pm

    “In this regard, it is clarified and reiterated emphatically that Mr. Snowden never met the President in Russia and less up to the aircraft, not meeting the present, in Bolivia and, if it decides to enter or transit through the country, exercising the principles of sovereignty, independence and equality of states.”

    Google trans.

    “Where is Snowden’. That’s the hundred-dollar question. Clearly this response is part of their complaint to UN. I think it was Arbed (?) who suggested there are plenty of hiding spaces in passenger aircraft. Are you suggesting he was on the plane, and this is the reason for the carefully phrased 2nd graf? It does sound parsed somewhat, I agree.

  198. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 5:11 pm

    The French said there was ‘conflicting information’. I bet there was a lot of shuffling. The question is; who started the dance?

  199. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 5:13 pm

    When in Rome…. Make that ‘Paris’.

    France ‘has vast data surveillance’ – Le Monde report
    Telecom network cables in France
    The DGSE data is said to be accessed by other French intelligence agencies

    Continue reading the main story
    US spy leaks
    Revelations of US spy scandal
    Where will Snowden end up?
    Is it OK to spy on your allies?
    Wikileaks back in spotlight

    France’s foreign intelligence service intercepts computer and telephone data on a vast scale, like the controversial US Prism programme, according to the French daily Le Monde.

    The data is stored on a supercomputer at the headquarters of the DGSE intelligence service, the paper says.

    The operation is “outside the law, and beyond any proper supervision”, Le Monde says.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23178284

    Quel surprise!

  200. Ben Franklin, 5.09pm

    I think it was Arbed (?) who suggested there are plenty of hiding spaces in passenger aircraft.

    Nope, not me. The people who are currently protecting Snowden from the awesome power of the US gangsters have experience in such matters and are, in any case, far cleverer than that. This is a legal and political game, not a Boy’s Own adventure game – they are not going to pull any stunts that could be challenged legally.

    The French said there was ‘conflicting information’… The question is; who started the dance?

    Ahh, that’s more like it! :)

  201. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 5:50 pm

    Arbed; Do you think NEVER having confirmation of his whereabouts is in the plan?

  202. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 5:53 pm

    I think your last comment answered my last question. Legal it is. I know Putin has been briefed so as not to lose his UN refugee/HR status.

  203. Arbed, that thought (bug as source of “rumour”) also crossed my mind. After discovering the bug, the Ecuadorean embassy probably acted out a scripted conversation to see where the false information flowed.

    Those responsible for planting the bug and listening in on private embassy conversations are hardly in a position to express outrage for having been sent on a wild goose chase.

    The US and UK are being set up to embarrass themselves and estrange existing and potential diplomatic partners. Hah!

  204. Uppsy! A few puppies have rolled over to have their bellies rubbed (France and Italy to the dog-box immediately for soiling yourselves), but – oops! – Grumpy Cat has just weighed in, claws flashing…

    Russia criticises European states for ‘unfriendly’ diversion of Bolivian president Morales’ plane:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10160170/Russia-criticises-European-states-for-unfriendly-diversion-of-Bolivian-president-Morales-plane.html

    Oo-er!

  205. Thanks for letting us know Arbed, to the air plane, the Falcon 900ex long range version uses every available space for tanks, so I doubt Edward would find much space to hide in, although he is fairly thin.

    I’m surprised that Snowden has turned into a red hot poker and nobody wants to give him asylum, wonder what information he really has. I think that whatever it is, the silence over it has become deafening, keeping further info secret does not seem to work for him.

    As for Julian in his enforced excile, he will have to use pen and paper when communicating with people, if the place was bugged, and if there is one likehoods is that there are others.

    It needs a daily sweep. Can you get ‘sleepers’? i.e. bugs that give of no signal until activated and/or shut down at will?

    There might also be a camera, a pinprick somewhere in the room, gently drilled and prepared, not unlike those cameras set by wild life photographers, mere millimetres across, embossed and fancy ceilings and lamps are preferred for such escapades, as it enables to see most of the room.

    keep looking, plenty and often.

  206. Ben: “Arbed; Do you think NEVER having confirmation of his whereabouts is in the plan?”

    Ben/Arbed, i think that makes sense doesn’t it? He can still continue to share his reports. He can live incognito if thats what he wants, he’s safer that way, the host country is not outwardly the target of US wrath, and after Vienna, Russia has an excuse to help covertly.

    I think Cuba and Venezuela (most oil-rich country) are still possibilities. It’ll be good if UNASUR somehow gives its consensus of backing so that its seen to be a joint decision should the plan be for Snowden to reappear.

    Meanwhile i believe Bolivia is kicking-out the ambassadors of France, Spain and Portugal, quite rightly. What an Obummer of a blunder — what credibility has the President of the World left within the Global Village?
    —-
    Arbed please keep us posted…

  207. The Irish – sartorially challenged though they may often be (I’m allowed to say that ;) ) – seem to be slightly quicker on the uptake than their more cosmopolitan, elegant cousins:

    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 41m

    Irish senator David Norris calls on Irish senate to ask government to “act proactively” to protect #Snowden http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2013-07-02a.8#g48
    Expand
    Reply Retweet Favourite More
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 42m

    Irish parliamentarian Clare Daly asks government to support #Snowden application, and give him refuge http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-07-02a.86#g125
    Expand
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 47m

    Irish deputy PM Eamon Gilmore: US spying on EU building “the equivalent of the European Union bugging Capitol Hill” http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-07-02a.334#g391
    Expand
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 48m

    Irish parliamentarian Richard Boyd Barrett urges Irish government to issue a statement of support for #Snowden http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-07-02a.334#g382
    Expand
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 48m

    Irish parliamentarian Mick Wallace speaks in support of #Snowden, #Assange, #Manning, #Swartz and #Hammond http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-07-02a.334#g371

    A few voices in Germany:

    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 39m

    German representative Peter Gauweiler urges invitation to Snowden to testify in Germany, granting safe passage [de] http://www.suddeutsche.de/gauweiler-will-snowden-nach-deutschland-holen-der-mann-ist-ein-zentrales-bewismittel-1.1711736

    Hurrah! Peeps on Twitter can join in:

    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 37m

    Please search the parliamentary/congressional records of your nation for #Snowden comments. Use hashtag #SnowdenParl

  208. @Ben – I used Google’s poor-quality translation prog and then tidied up the result a bit, so we are going backwards. I wondered whether someone might be able to provide a better translation who actually knows Spanish.

    The reason I’d like a better translation of the 2nd paragraph is to find out whether they are saying Snowden didn’t meet Morales either in Russia or on the aircraft, or that he didn’t meet Morales in Russia and he didn’t go up in the aircraft, or that he has not met Morales and was not on the plane.

    If he was in any place that could be interpreted as being under Bolivian jurisdiction, for any period of time, then he could have requested asylum during that time. There could well have been such a place at Sheremetevo.

    The fact that the Austrian president went to Vienna’s Schwechat airport and met with Morales, and the plane stayed there for several hours, suggests that interesting events occurred at the airport which were different from a search of the plane. They may have involved a discussion of issues of asylum – and I don’t mean hypothetical issues.

    There is some quality disinformation here, involving a number of organisations, and involving official silence as well as press releases and unattributable briefings. Those such as myself who have only read news reports rather than having any inside track remain completely in the dark as to whether any search took place.

    All we know is that a search did take place, both countries’ governments seem to have agreed to keep quiet about it.

    I am suggesting that they may also have something else to keep quiet about.

    Wikileaks and Edward Snowden himself are also keeping quiet about what has been going on. I suspect that may not be the wisest policy for Snowden.

    @Arbed – we may disagree on this point. Snowden’s ‘protectors’ may turn out to be not exclusively committed to that role. I continue to believe that he was stitched up into going to Moscow. Have you studied the Bobby Fischer case? From a Japanese jail cell, he publicised every damned last thing that happened, and he eventually defeated the US government and got citizenship of Iceland.

    I hope Snowden is alive and in good health, and on his way to being publicly acknowledged to have claimed and been granted asylum.

    @Ben – you ask who started the dance. For certain, given the disinformation put out in the western media and the location of Sheremetevo, we know that both US and Russian agencies are involved.

  209. Nevermind, 6.18pm

    I wouldn’t be concerned about Julian Assange’s ability to outfox surveillance by intelligence services – he has years of experience at that, and is, besides, one of the world’s top cryptographic experts.

  210. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 6:41 pm

    Villager; Multiple Nation approvals and then reported sightings in each of those seems his best bet.

    Not having a fix on him as to exact location is the way he will have to live.

  211. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 6:44 pm

    Nevermind; sorry I misled. I don’t speak Spanish, but I do know syntax is a problem with translation. My point was that it was a non-denial denial. ‘He didn’t meet him’ seems to be the legalese escape clause; as my only point.

  212. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 6:47 pm

    Arbed @ 6:18; Putin, the likely source of the rumor is having lots of fun with the US.

  213. N, 6.31pm

    Snowden’s ‘protectors’ may turn out to be not exclusively committed to that role.

    If by that you mean Wikileaks, oh I think they are wholly committed to it. The organisation’s entire raison d’etre is to protect whistleblowers. Things may not always be what they seem – in order to get a good insight into what is going on, it is necessary to read pretty widely and exploit as many internet sources of information as you can.

    Here’s an example. Edward Snowden’s father wrote a corker of an open letter to his son, comparing him to Paul Revere no less – well, no, actually Snowden Senior’s letter was penned with the help of his lawyer, Bruce Fein – and the Washington Post duly reported that Fein said they’d received a message, allegedly from Edward but conveyed via Julian Assange, to “keep quiet”. “We’re working to establish a direct link to Snowden without having to go through an intermediary”, said Fein:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/snowdens-father-signals-frustration-with-wikileaks-issues-broad-defense-of-son/2013/07/02/5c1dc6aa-e352-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

    Got that? Now, here’s the rub. This is from the website of Sibel Edmonds, head of the US-based National Security Whistleblowers Alliance, herself a whistleblower and whose bone fides cannot be doubted. A post all about Bruce Fein, his background and his clients, from September 2011:

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/tag/neocon-bruce-fein/

  214. Think about it, Ben. Start off with a time when he’s stuck at Sheremetevo. Various parties are going to be trying to bribe, threaten, or trick him. If he had as much sense as Bobby Fischer (and he probably hasn’t), he’d sort himself out some way of communicating to the world, and fuck what any lawyer tells him about keeping his mouth shut. Where can he fly to from where he can get a flight to where he wants to go? If his final destination isn’t an ALBA country, with first preference for Bolivia but Ecuador, Venezuela and Cuba will also suffice, then he’s an idiot.

  215. Morales’s plane was at Schwechat for 14 hours! OK Austria is landlocked nowadays, but for fuck’s sake! Talks took place there, I’m tellin’ ya’! :-)

    Let’s hope Snowden has got the sense not to go anywhere near Schiphol (Amsterdam) or Frankfurt!

  216. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 6:55 pm

    ” fuck what any lawyer tells him about keeping his mouth shut”

    It’s a legal strategy, N_. The refugee status and HR charters of the UN proscribe illegality.

    The South Korean Head of the UN has already said some untoward words wrt Snowden.

  217. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 6:58 pm

    “If by that you mean Wikileaks, oh I think they are wholly committed to it. The organisation’s entire raison d’etre is to protect whistleblowers”

    They are totally invested, for sure. Their fates are all intertwined and I think that bodes well for being honorable toward Snowden. I think Assange has been very frustrated he couldn’t help Manning more than he has, but those were circumstances out of reach.

  218. I think N’s insistence that Snowden can’t get a safe flight route out of Sheremetevo airport – yes, that’s where he is, there’s no mystery – are premature. Belarus, Austria, German airspace doesn’t seem to be a problem yet.

    Oh, look – here’s more voices speaking out in Germany trying to find political solutions that might work:

    Kai von der Heyden @k_heyden 11m

    SPD head Sigmar Gabriel requests Federal Prosec.office to investigate &witness protection for #Snowden http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/gabriel-ueber-spionage-skandale-ermittlungen-gegen-geheimdienste-snowden-unter-zeugenschutz-stellen_aid_1033997.html … #SnowdenParl

    Worth joining in that hunt for Parliamentary/Congressional mentions of Snowden that Wikileaks twitter suggested, I’d say, if people want to help.

  219. @Arbed – N, 6.31pm

    “[me] Snowden’s ‘protectors’ may turn out to be not exclusively committed to that role.”

    If by that you mean Wikileaks, oh I think they are wholly committed to it. The organisation’s entire raison d’etre is to protect whistleblowers.

    That’s a funny chain of logic you’ve got there.

    Things may not always be what they seem – in order to get a good insight into what is going on, it is necessary to read pretty widely and exploit as many internet sources of information as you can.

    But not sufficient.

    Examine your notions. How can an organisation be committed to anything?

    The very idea of having a global central point for whistleblowers to use is bullshit. Whistleblowers would be much better off learning how to post to Usenet.

    Look how the Wikileaks hierarchs work with the NYT and the Guardian. For goodness sake! They’re both Zionist through and through, and the Guardian – isn’t that the paper which says it’s lawful for the Brits to break into embassies?

    I hate all this Woodward and Bernstein stuff.

    Here’s an example. Edward Snowden’s father wrote a corker of an open letter to his son, comparing him to Paul Revere no less – well, no, actually Snowden Senior’s letter was penned with the help of his lawyer, Bruce Fein – and the Washington Post duly reported that Fein said they’d received a message, allegedly from Edward but conveyed via Julian Assange, to “keep quiet”. “We’re working to establish a direct link to Snowden without having to go through an intermediary”, said Fein:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/snowdens-father-signals-frustration-with-wikileaks-issues-broad-defense-of-son/2013/07/02/5c1dc6aa-e352-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

    Got that?

    Yeah. A lawyer’s got close to his father, with whom Snowden’s own minders seem to be ‘protecting’ him from communicating. Last we heard, he wasn’t in captivity. The FSR listen to everything at Sheremetevo, electronic or otherwise. There’s absolutely no chance of him having a secure line of communication with his father. He should know that, and so should Assange. He might as well use a common-or-garden unencrypted mobile phone.

    Now, here’s the rub. This is from the website of Sibel Edmonds, head of the US-based National Security Whistleblowers Alliance, herself a whistleblower and whose bone fides cannot be doubted. A post all about Bruce Fein, his background and his clients, from September 2011:

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/tag/neocon-bruce-fein/

    Yikes! Fein worked as Research Director for the Republican Party on the Joint Congressional Committee on Covert Arms Sales to Iran, and has been a Fellow for Constitutional Studies at the Heritage Foundation and worked at the American Enterprise Institute. He has advised various countries on “constitutional reform”, including South Africa, Hungary and Russia.

    Really hard to imagine a background that shouts “CIA” any more loudly.

    Funny how it was the right wing that started this NSA story off, too. Ditto MPs’ expenses in the little ol’ UK.

  220. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:15 pm

    Arbed

    Witness protection program in Germany? I see wheels within local political wheels grinding his life to dust. I don’t trust any of the governmental principals including Ecuador to keep Snowden’s life or liberty. They all have their own domestic agenda.

  221. Oh, lovely…

    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 6m

    Assange: Why is Congress, EU rolling over for NSA? Imagine JE Hoover, but with ‘dirt files’ the size of a Utah mountain. That’s the NSA.

    Meanwhile…

    LatviaFoWL @LatviaFoWL 12m

    Latvian Foreign Affairs Ministry summons U.S. diplomats over spy scandal – http://bnn-news.com/?p=98686 | #SnowdenParl #PRISM

    Latvia – wouldn’t that be a gateway to another possible flight path?

    And…

    Kristinn Hrafnsson @khrafnsson 19m

    Icelandic MP´s introduce bill to grant Snowden citizenship. http://www.visir.is/snowden-frumvarp-lagt-fram-a-althingi/article/2013130709573 … #Snowdenparl

    It’s all getting a bit Tectonic, isn’t it? Haha, what an almighty Game of Thrones we’re having. I haven’t had this much fun in ages.

  222. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:16 pm

    Assange is the mediator wrt communication between Snowden and Dad, N_

  223. Let’s look on the bright side. Like the Stasi in East Gemany, the NSA are collating in one place embarrassing details on every one of the shower of shit that have been running the West into a cesspit.

    It’ll be handy for the prosecutions that must follow their demise.

  224. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:27 pm

    ““He might be able to present a whistleblower defense by showing that the documents he revealed benefited the public’s interest more than the state,” Amnesty International’s Michael Bochenek said.
    According to the 1951 United Nations Convention on Refugees, refugee status can only be granted if an applicant can successfully argue that they face persecution due to one of the following reasons: race, religion, nationality, membership to a social group, or political opinion.
    However, countries may reject refugee status if there is “serious reason to suspect that [he has] committed a crime against peace, a war crime, a crime against humanity, or a serious non-political crime outside of [his] country of origin.””

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/04/19283845-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-attempts-to-navigate-legal-labyrinth?lite

    So Snowden’s entire 8 year long project either had no plan, or a near fail-safe plan with multiple tangents based upon future exigent circumstances. I think the latter is more than speculation.

  225. @Arbed – Iceland, yeah! And not simply asylum, but citizenship.

    I told everyone to read up on the Bobby Fischer case!

    @Ben – if you mean “intermediary”, yes, I got that. Or maybe the middle intermediary, with others being Fein (closest to father) and Wikileaks’s ‘agents on the spot’ (closest to Snowden). If I were him, I’d speak to my family on an ordinary phone. Talk about false ‘security’. Ironic, given the circumstances!

  226. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:33 pm

    Yes, ‘intermediary’.

  227. Flaming June

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:38 pm

    John Pilger in the Guardian.

    Forcing down Evo Morales’s plane was an act of air piracy
    Denying the Bolivian president air space was a metaphor for the gangsterism that now rules the world

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/forcing-down-morales-plane-air-piracy?CMP=twt_gu

    Some appalling comments there.

  228. N, 7.29pm

    Yes, the bill in Iceland to grant citizenship helps – any displays of ‘official’ support will help. Extradition and asylum are, after all, 90 per cent political decisions, and 10 per cent legalities.

    My money’s still on UNASUR, though. Iceland pop. = 300,000. UNASUR = 12-nation bloc.

  229. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:42 pm

    Here it is. (see #2) UNCHR protocols must be satisfied. They have to court the UN. This is the reason for the legalisms.

    http://eng.velferdarraduneyti.is/media/acrobat-enskar_sidur/UNCHR_COUNTRY_3._Iceland.pdf

  230. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:45 pm

    N_ Don’t know what happened to the comment, but my 7:42 is the result of checking your Fischer reference.

    He was given status by Iceland while in Japan, so there goes the requirement that he must physically present on the Nation’s soil.

  231. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:49 pm

    Then there’s that NATO thang….Arbed?

  232. Amnesty International are talking crap as usual. At least it gives the MI6 wives something to do, in the posh areas of certain English cathedral cities. If Snowden goes to trial, he’s fucked. Doesn’t matter what his defence would be. What he needs is asylum. The UN is obviously not going to grant refugee status, and countries aren’t limited by international law as to whom they can grant asylum to.

    Barrister Gemma Lindfield, according to Owen Boycott at the Guardian, implies that Russia have only defined airside transit at Sheremetevo to be extra-territorial because it suits their interests in the Snowden case.

    It’s very odd for a country to have a consulate at its own airport. Does someone know when the Russian consulate at Sheremetevo was first set up?

    Any guesses for what work Lindfield has done in the past?

    OK, time’s up.

    She worked as a junior for the fucking Swedish government in the Assange case! And she whinges on her webpage that she “(a)cted as a led junior in the extradition proceedings against a very well resourced defence team.

    Owen Boycott quotes her as if she’s an independent expert!

    For the sake of argument, though, let’s assume she’s correct here, which she may be.

    Then the question becomes why Russia did it.

    Presumably precisely to spark off a protracted period of people talking to other people, all under the watchful eye of Russian state security.

    Makes me wonder whether the FSR might have had a hand, together with people in Wikileaks, in stitching Snowden up into going to Moscow in the first place.

    PS
    I looked up who was head of chambers where Lindfield works, at 7 Bedford Row. It’s Simeon Maskrey, who says that “since 2008 he has [...] been acting for security firms defending actions arising out of injuries sustained in Iraq, Afghanistan and other world-wide trouble spots.”

    Take off your mask, Gemma – you’ve been exposed.

  233. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:56 pm

    I see nothing which would threaten NATO status, but sharper eyes are needed.

    http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_24443.htm?selectedLocale=en

  234. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 7:58 pm

    Visions of Tom Hanks in the Terminal….vending machine food…yummy.

  235. @Arbed – yes – the story with Fischer was that first the Icelandic parliament voted to give him the right of abode as a non-national, with a travel document appropriate to that (an “alien’s passport”). The Japanese authorities said they wouldn’t release him from jail and let him out of the country on that document, so the Icelandic parliament then voted to give him full citizenship. They did so against US pressure, and their action was only to be applauded. A country with a small population can do a lot if the will is there. I am really glad that a motion to support Snowden in a similar way will go before the Icelandic parliament. Certainly, everyone in Iceland knows the Fischer case.

    As for Unasur, well let’s hope Snowden gets some support there too, although they can’t grant asylum as far as I am aware. At least one member, Brazil, has already said no.

    A government such as the one in Bolivia does not always get the best legal or PR advice, and I was dismayed when they said they can only consider an asylum request when someone is on Bolivian territory or under Bolivian jurisdiction. If necessary, they too could grant citizenship, or, as you say, they could issue some kind of laissez passer preliminary to a grant of asylum when he arrives.

    It would not surprise me if there was some interesting stuff involving Bolivia at Sheremetevo. In Vienna, there must have been.

  236. N,

    Meanwhile, deep breath…

    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 17m

    Dutch ALDE MEP Sophie Veld says EU has to guarantee Europeans that they are covered by European law, not American law http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/content/20130701STO14753/html/A-question-of-trust-MEPs-call-for-answers-from-US-over-spying-scandal
    Expand
    Reply Retweet Favourite More
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 18m

    German MEP Jan Philipp Albrecht accuses NSA of “meltdown” and “espionage against democratic countries & institutions” http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html
    View summary
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 19m

    Former Belgian PM and EU parliementary political party head Guy Verhofstadt condemns “American data collection mania” http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html
    View summary
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 19m

    German MEP Markus Ferber says US use of “Stasi methods sacrifices all credibility as a moral authority” http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html
    View summary
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 20m

    Elmar Brok, chairman of Foreign Affairs Committee in European Parliament says NSA spying is “intolerable” http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html
    View summary
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 20m

    Hans-Peter Martin, Austrian European parliamentarian, says US has become a worldwide spy, targeting friends. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/content/20130701STO14753/html/A-question-of-trust-MEPs-call-for-answers-from-US-over-spying-scandal
    Expand
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 20m

    Cornelia Ernst, German MEP says US/UK spying “is organised crime at behest of nation states” http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/content/20130701STO14753/html/A-question-of-trust-MEPs-call-for-answers-from-US-over-spying-scandal
    Expand
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 21m

    Greek EU parliamentarian Dimitrious Droutsas on NSA spying: “we cannot back down on the rights of European citizens” http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/content/20130701STO14753/html/A-question-of-trust-MEPs-call-for-answers-from-US-over-spying-scandal
    Expand
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 21m

    German Federal Prosecutors investigating whether NSA can be charged for committing crimes against German citizens http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-prosecutors-to-review-nsa-spying-allegations-a-908636.html

    I wasn’t kidding when I said this is all becoming a bit Tectonic…

    For Ben, this tweet may give a partial answer to your query about NATO, particular in light of all the above news from Germany:

    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 2 Jul

    States now named: France, Portugal, Italy, Spain. Was the alert NATO wide? If so which NATO state gave airspace from Moscow? Germany?

    N, this conversation may be useful, as regards why Moscow was the first port of call out of Hong Kong:

    Nadim Kobeissi @kaepora 30 Jun

    Snowden is stranded in Russia, and I blame WikiLeaks. Sorry, but Assange’s plan was absolutely ridiculous. http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/julian-assange-edward-snowden-is-marooned-in-russia/2013/06/30/67ed243e-e191-11e2-9960-65d66450db63_story.html?tid=rssfeed
    Details
    WikiLeaks @wikileaks 30 Jun

    @kaepora The plan was to move him to Russia, a country without a US extradition treaty, number one. Number two, asylum in a protective state
    Details
    Reply Retweet Favourite More
    Follow
    WikiLeaksVerified account
    @wikileaks

    @kaepora The current situation was factored into planning. The majority risk was in Hong Kong. It has been eliminated. Odds are good now.

    https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/351526665526054912

    I think we have to trust that these guys have been studying asylum and extradition issues for at least a couple of years now.

  237. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 8:26 pm

    “90 per cent political decisions, and 10 per cent legalities.”

    Hope you’re right. But it is instructive that Egypts coup disqualifies aid from the US. Then I heard an official say ‘there are ways around the Law’…heh.

  238. Oh, and Jon addressed it to “Passerby/Fedup” but I don’t recall you objecting at the time. [Correct me if I'm wrong.]

    He has the IP in front of him, and he can see who is posting!

    Cease and desist from banging on about this one and that one, will you?

    ======

    The bum steer of Snowden is on board the Evo’s ride, is the best indication of Russians have pretty much worked out the CIA set-up. Which extends to the satellite nations’ SIS. It is evident that the Western ” 007″s have turned out to be “00 2 and one eighth”s.. Needless to point out as Trowbridge says;

    Western intelligence agencies are the slowest learners on the planet because they are always using the same methods to prove that they finally got it right.

    The formula is the more money you throw at it, the more likely there will be a breakthrough, a nice arrangement for all concerned, they get paid for failure just like their bosses the banksters.

  239. All he needs to do is find a country run by people who have nothing to hide. A country which doesn’t spy on it’s people, doesn’t spy on it’s neighbours.

    With around 200 countries in the world how difficult can that be?

  240. @ Arbed 7 39pm

    My money’s with yours Arbed. Here’s what one wrote earlier:

    “Villager
    3 Jul, 2013 – 8:50 pm
    I hope the silver lining to all this is that the South American countries will come together to find a solution to Snowden and present it as a joint solution so that the eventual country is not singled out for persecution. I can imagine that once settled a Russian military plane could render him to his asylum. Belarus is now being mentioned as a possible host.

    I’d love to know the contents of the Correa-Biden call. Could it be that Assange’s safe passage was discussed? Since Correa seems so satisfied with that call.”

  241. No country is going to give Snowden asylum under threat of politically frustrating and expensive US penalties. Let’s not kid ourselves here – countries do not imperil their national interests out of admiration for foreign whistleblowers.

    There are two options for Snowden, in my estimation. One, an indefinite legally anomalous situation, like Snowden’s supposed present state of limbo at Sheremetyevo or, two, disappearing with a new identity never to be heard from again — unless safe to reappear.
    . . . .

    The media has been trying to depict Wikileaks as obstructing contact between Snowden and his family in the US. It’s almost certainly the case that the FBI have been working on Snowden’s family to convince them with false assurances that Snowden’s best prospects lie for him in returning to the US. Any attempted contact by his father would be under surveillance to ascertain Snowden’s exact whereabouts. So it is perfectly reasonable that communications channels should be obfuscated by Wikileaks to prevent this. Snowden could, after all, be in another country already.

  242. dirty sanchez

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:48 pm

    It’s beginning to dawn on the EOP knuckledraggers that Snowden might have material that is not only outside his compartments but way above his pay grade. And that the latter might not have come to this honnête homme purely by serendipity, as in the case of Sibel Edmonds. The community of professional subversives is small and tight-knit, but not necessarily monolithic. As anybody with a grain of sense knows, you don’t piss off people who know how to knock over a regime.

    Panicked by fears of worse to come, the USG has made a joke of its pretense of rule of law and is now snared in a process called mobilizing shame. The world is now baiting the US like cops bait a drunk driver, savoring his diminished capacity and loss of control, seeing what new offense they can provoke. The permanent government will emerge from this wringer on a diplomatic par with the Symbionese Liberation Army. Heads will roll. You can almost taste the chyme Obama’s cheesing up into his mouth. Titan Group, feeling smug? Don’t.

  243. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 9:58 pm

    Transcendental Aestheticism (Kant)

    Mobilizing Shame (thx Dirty) http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/saq/summary/v103/103.2keenan.html

    “In this regard, mobilizing shame has Enlightenment roots, as many have pointed out. But they are contradictory ones. Kant defined Enlightenment as the release or exit from heteronomy, from dependence or reliance on the opinions of others, and as growing up out of shame and into courage, reason, and conscience. But the sign of an accomplished Enlightenment is, he adds, the use of that reason in public, so as to engage with others and change their opinions. The Kantian moral subject is fully realized only when his or her reason is liberated from the guidance, surveillance, pressure, or context of others, but at the same time when it is destined for public exchange, exposure, or enlightenment. Reason must be employed in public, says Kant, if there is to be any possibility of progress or social transformation; beliefs and institutions have no hope of survival if they are not exposed to reason, to judgments sparked by its critical force in public. Reason works when it exposes, reveals, and argues.

    Mobilizing Shame

    No one seems to be able to pinpoint the moment when the phrase mobilizing shame entered our lexicon. Robert Drinan, in his recent book The Mobilization of Shame, credits what his footnote calls “Turkey campaign documents, Amnesty International” as the source of the phrase, but fails to supply a date or a title. The first published references, though, go a long way toward sketching the essential elements of the concept as…”

  244. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 10:04 pm

    “A few Minutes of Reflection this 4th of July

    Thursday, 4. July 2013 by Sibel Edmonds

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic”- Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the USA

    During this celebratory holiday please take a few minutes to read our Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and US Citizenship-Office Oath. Please do it.

    You will not find the word ‘Flag.’

    You will not see the word ‘Borders.’

    You will not see the words ‘National Security.’

    What you will see is the word ‘Constitution.’

    What you will find is the obligation to defend, not the ‘flag,’ ‘borders’ or ‘government’, but the United States Constitution, and defend it against foreign and domestic enemies. Read more ?
    - See more at: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/#sthash.chROQLjS.dpuf

  245. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Jul, 2013 - 10:50 pm

    Musical interlude;

    Rikki Tikki Tavi—Not Donovan’s best arrangement, but the lyrics are spot on especially for today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY7Rxae4pjU

  246. Michael Moore has tweeted (and Wikileaks has re-tweeted)

    Michael Moore ‏@MMFlint
    The most badass thing Morales could do is fly back to Moscow, NOW, pick up Snowden, & take him out of there — and dare Europe to stop him.

  247. Secret Police Before and After

  248. Vienna, Moscow… tunnels, men with brief-cases and large ears. It’s just like the old days! Park benches, dead drops, listening rocks. Lots of men named, ‘Sasha’ and ‘Major Halliday’. Deals-behind-the-scenes. A dangle? Now, who is dangling what before whom?

    “Did we meet in California?”
    “No, it was in St Louis.”

    Ben, 10:50pm, 4.7.13. ‘Riki Tiki Tavi’ – good song, from the much-underrated Open Road LP, 1970. He was from Glasgow, Mr Leitch, you know, originally. Like Billy Connolly, Maryhill.

    “Did we meet in Maryhill?”
    “No, it was in Arizona.”

    I mean, let’s be frank. Did anyone here NOT already know that as far as countries go, everyone spies on everyone else and that the UK/USA too spies on their own citizens? Has everyone not known this since at least the 1980s and possibly the 1960s? Does anyone really believe that intelligence services anywhere adhere to the law of the land (any land)? I mean, really?

    It was news to me, however, that the fascinating and critical subject of the electrical wiring in my house is available to the NSA/GCHQ. This may explain why, suddenly and without warning last week, my microwave went on the blink: The light’s on but there’s no-one at home.

    “How is the tea in Azerbaijan?”
    “It rains often in Maryhill.”

  249. Now, who is dangling what before whom?

    Is that not illegal, and have they caught the perp, or has he (always he s do this sort of thing) given them the slip. Austrians probably were looking for the Macintosh in the Plane!

    “Did we meet in California?”
    “No, it was in St Louis.”

    I have mislaid my one time pad, can you decode it just this once?

    Did anyone here NOT already know that as far as countries go, everyone spies on everyone else and that the UK/USA too spies on their own citizens?

    Why do they have embassies and fill them with Military attaches then? So far as population goes, best not speculate on that!!!

    fascinating and critical subject of the electrical wiring in my house is available to the NSA/GCHQ.

    Boy you have lead a very sheltered life. That was the good old days, now they can divine your ass in milliseconds, their technology entails pretty surprising stuff. Be happy and thank your lucky stars that your microwave has not been talking to you.

    “How is the tea in Azerbaijan?”
    “It rains often in Maryhill.”

    Oh the rain mainly falls on the plain, and tea is pretty rotten in Azerbaijan, Aliev keeps pissing in the teapot, and tells everybody it is Lapsang Souchong they are drinking. As you know it is an acquired taste, just as in case of horse meat.

  250. Secret Police Before and After

    “Before” goes to the broom cupboard down the corridor, can you give it another try?

  251. “That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness… when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security…”
    US Declaration of Independence, July 1776

    Here’s Richie Havans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfTjF38wDxM

    And the original, improvised after three hours , having run out of songs, while waiting for the other bands were stuck trying to get to there…..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5aPBU34Fyk

  252. aha
    the last part of the link ‘before’ is
    http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/speeches_testimonies/3jul13_4th.shtml

  253. “Be happy and thank your lucky stars that your microwave has not been talking to you.” Fedup.

    Actually, it has. It says:

    “I’m fed up I’m not fed up.”

    “Boy you have lead a very sheltered life. That was the good old days, now they can divine your ass in milliseconds, their technology entails pretty surprising stuff.” Fedup.

    My microwave also intones (in Russian bass):

    “I think you needlessly may be carrying over aggression from a previous thread and so have lifetd up the wrong stick altogether. Stop beating yourself around the ass [the microwave learned their English from an American]. You need to go to Azerbaijan, ride some ass into the mountains of Kaukash and drink some dictator tea, renowned for its therapeutic properties.”

  254. Barack Obama. 2008

    “I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are.”

    2013. The “without undermining our Constitution” sounds pretty silly now.

    More at: http://rt.com/op-edge/white-house-effect-obama-598/

  255. Bolivia threatens to close US embassy. Let’s hope they do it! Once again, let Bolivia give a lead to the world, as it did at the time of the 2009 Gaza massacre.

    Let’s look towards not just shutting US embassies, but sanctions against the criminal US regime, to be imposed by as many countries as possible.

  256. @Jemand “No country is going to give Snowden asylum under threat of politically frustrating and expensive US penalties. Let’s not kid ourselves here – countries do not imperil their national interests out of admiration for foreign whistleblowers.

    Er, Philip Agee? The word “whistleblower” is functioning in a Bernaysian way here. Everyone interested in thinking about elint has known for decades about the NSA. In the UK context, hello Menwith Hill and hello Diego Garcia. There’s stuff from the 1970s and 1980s by Duncan Campbell. European and other governments could have spoken about this years ago, if they’d wanted to. They didn’t want to. Now they do. That isn’t because it’s been in the newspapers. It’s about trade. All politics is about money.

    Compare the Vanunu case. Everyone interested in thinking about Israeli strategic capability had known about Israeli nukes for years. The British government still doesn’t talk about them. Nor do the German, French, US governments etc. I note that while “NSA” is the topic du jour in the chattering classes, there’s little talk of concrete things such as

    * closing Menwith Hill near Harrogate in Yorkshire, one of the biggest US spy bases in the world, and which is rigged in to the UK microwave system

    * asking why the CIA Head of Station in London attends the weekly meetings of the UK Joint Intelligence Committee (bit of an effing giveaway, that one!)

    Instead, there is drivel about ‘international law’ and so on. Although I welcome this kind of talk as one way to support Edward Snowden, let’s not start believing it…

  257. For posters still interested in why America’s stooges in Europe hijacked Evo Morales’ plane, I suggest they read about what Sweden’s Lex Orwell gave its FRA, the eavesdropping agency, especially since almost all Russian internet traffic is routed through Sweden.

    Just imagine what false information Russian spooks could put in the minds of Russophobes who want to establish even closer relations with its American boss, the NSA.

    And can anyone believe the advice that CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou is providing Snowden, hoping that he will come back to the States to face the music!

    If he does so, he will end up dead.

    And don’t forget that all letters by Kiriakou must meet the approval of his jailers.

    When I wrote Rick Ames about his role in preventing the shooting of Palme from resulting in armageddon, he reminded me of his conditions in federal prison, stating he could never discuss anything so outlandish.

  258. Bolivia says the Spanish ambassador to Austria, Yago Pico de Coaña y de Valicourt, turned up at the airport in Vienna and wanted to come on board to search the plane, but was refused.

    What’s going to come out next about what happened in Vienna?

    Who else was there, for starters?

    I notice that Aeroflot have got a terminal there.

    Wink!

  259. D’oh! I mean Aeroflot have got an office at Vienna’s Schwechat airport, not a whole terminal! :-)

  260. “US sends [Irish] Government arrest warrant for Snowden”
    ‘Move a pre-emptive strike to stop fugitive intelligence analyst landing at Shannon on way to Cuba’

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-sends-government-arrest-warrant-for-snowden-1.1453364

    They should send the damn thing straight back, and tell the U.S. that Snowden will be accorded the same facilities as U.S. troops passing through Shannon!!

    However, there’s a little chink (maybe)

    “However, if he travelled via Shannon as part of his efforts to get to Cuba and was arrested under the provisional arrest warrant pending an extradition process by the American authorities in the Irish courts, he could apply for asylum while being held in prison here.”

    ‘Twould be very risky thing to rely on … very very

  261. Btw, according to G Greenwald

    NOTE: Snowden’s leak is basically done. It’s newspapers – not Snowden – deciding what gets disclosed and in what sequence.

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/351730381478821888

  262. Trowbridge, 12.17pm

    I’ve known about Sweden’s FRA laws for quite some time. Here’s my favourite Rixstep article of all time. It has lots to say on how the new surveillance laws were sneaked through parliament by subterfuge.

    http://rixstep.com/1/20080608,00.shtml

  263. @Dreoilin

    (Ireland’s) Extradition Act 1965, section 10:

    Ireland can only extradite under this Act if the person’s alleged offence would be an offence in Ireland punishable by at least a year in prison.

    Moreover, they may not use this Act to extradite for an alleged “political” offence, or for “an offence connected with a political offence” (section 11).

    Would the US say “imagine if Ireland had an agency which had an enormous international electronic spying capability, monitoring all internet and telephone traffic, which everyone knew about, and then one of its members told everyone”? :-)

    This is not to say I’d fancy Snowden’s chances in an Irish court.

    Once again, I urge people to look at the Bobby Fischer case. Since playing chess in Yugoslavia was never against the law in Japan, it would not have been lawful to extradite Fischer from Japan to the US. The US just wanted to grab him.

    (Background: they revoked his passport behind his back, having recently renewed it – far more recently than the chess match in Yugoslavia – and got him arrested when attempting to enter Japan using a so-called “illegal” passport which he’d never been told had been revoked. This was probably in response to him goading the CIA on the radio.)

    Has someone got a copy of the US arrest warrant served on Ireland?

  264. Thanks, Arbed.

    Lost a post through CAPTCHA censorship, so I shall just say that I thought Lex Orwell permitted wireless data mining.

    Being cable traffic, Russian must have realized its impact on their internet cable transmissions, and taken full advantage of it for Snowden’s benefit – a whistleblower everyone should want to protect despite the slowness and situation under which he decided to become one.

  265. but newspapers have been served with D-notices, so Snowdens release, logged with them according to GGreenwald, will at best be a long drawn out affair that reveals very little, it will be lawyers deciding what gets published, if anything gets published at all.

    The reactions from Europe are tectonic and so are Bolivia’s measures. I would not discount a witness protection from a German Government, especially if SPD and CDU/CSU agree, it very much depends whether Ms. Merkel remembers her youth under the Stasi in East Germany and her discussion with Obama, the buster of all sovereignty.

    Arbed, I knew of Julian’s abilities, did not mean to come over as presumptuous and lecturing, I leave that to it.
    Merely wanted to encourage a daily random sweep of his office.

  266. And Snowden certainly didn’t miss Wikileaks posting the Afghan Log without making the necessary redactions – what led not only to Gareth Williams’ horrific murder but also Gudrun Loftus’s when she indicated that she was taking his place, and that of Steve Rawlings when he raised questions about how she had fallen down the stars at St. John’s College, Oxford, and who had found her body.

    As for any German protection plan for Snowden, remember, in the final analysis, Merkel is apparently badly damaged goods, having been it seems, the Stasi/KGB agent ANITA.

  267. Of course, I meant the stairs at St. John’s, the ones right outside the Senior Common where she had planned a meeting with someone on that early October morning.

  268. Manning, Assange and Snowden are our version of Glasnost. All power to them.

    The Wikipedia page on Wayne Madsen has changed since Flaming June posted her quote from it – specifically the bit about the source being “left field” but the information “largely true” was removed, but the relevant source footnote (24) remains and leads here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/06/30/the-absolute-joy-of-the-guardians-sting-over-prism-and-the-nsa/

    [quote]It looks like The Guardian/Observer has managed to get itself mightily stung over a revelation about PRISM and the NSA. Which is all very amusing given the paper’s part in the Glenn Greenwald/Edward Snowden revelations. But what turns it into an absolute joy is that, while the news originally came from someone with, hmm, rather “out there” views, the actual information itself seems to be roughly true. And yet they’ve still taken the piece down.[/quote]

  269. Looks like Stockholm passed the disinformation about Snowden being on the Bolivian President’s plane to London who got Spain to act on it – what Madrid now declines to discuss.

    The Spanish right wingers have been taking the word of Britain’s since before the 3/11 tragedy there.

    Little wonder now that Bildt has gotten Sweden and the UK to stonewall any discussion by the EU of the USA’s espionage on the continent.

    And then there is Merkel aka ANITA if more stonewalling is required.

  270. Worth listening to Kim Dotcom’s address to New Zealand parliamentary committee on the peeping Toms and voyeurs who take it to themselves to lord over us:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cvgZsl_Prg

    “The Lives of Others”

    Worse than the Stasi.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405094/

  271. Spain/Portugal doing this to the Bolivian President, especially with Evo Morales, also resurrects the colonial angle. It rightly will play very badly in South and Central America. It’s really shameful and makes Spain/Portugal look like colonial overseers for the USA, which is kind of what they’ve shown themselves to be in this situation. One imagines economic pressure may have been used; the two Iberian countries are in dire straits and it would be very easy for the USA/Wall St to pressure them. With this action, a Rubicon (another) has been crossed. Craig is right to express outrage. If the US President’s ‘plane had been grounded and a threat made to search it, the USA would have gone to war. Same with the UK and The Queen, or PM. This is an act of war.

  272. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Jul, 2013 - 6:54 pm

    Hypothetical non-denial denial…http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2013/07/211535.htm#SNOWDEN

    QUESTION: But if the – if a similar situation were to happen involving Air Force One, it would be an international incident.

    MS. PSAKI: I’m not getting into a hypothetical. That’s not something that is currently happening that we’re currently discussing.

    QUESTION: Well, the approach to this question may be better this way – I still don’t think you’re going to answer it, but I think it’s going to put you on the spot more – (laughter) – than that question was because it’s not a hypothetical: Does the United States or would the United States condone breaches in protocols of diplomatic protocols of the Vienna conventions?

    MS. PSAKI: Well, Matt, this wasn’t a case where this was our airspace or this was –

    QUESTION: I understand that. But when the British Embassy is attacked someplace, you come out and say this is horrible, this is bad. When any number of infringements of diplomatic immunities and other protocols specified in the Vienna Conventions, when those happen you have – this government has in the past condemned them. So would the United States –

    MS. PSAKI: But Matt, some of these cases, the countries have said they didn’t shut down the airspace. So –

    QUESTION: Well, I mean, I’m not even getting into – I’m not even – it’s not clear to me that shutting down an airspace or not allowing transit is a violation of the Vienna Convention. But I’m just wondering – I don’t know that. But I just want to know, in a general sense, would the United States condone breaches of the diplomatic – of international diplomatic protocols?

    MS. PSAKI: Well, why don’t you – no, but why don’t you delve into where you’re getting at here, Matt? What are you trying to get at?

    QUESTION: I’m trying to get an answer to Roz’s question.

    MS. PSAKI: Okay, the hypothetical about Air Force One being denied –

    QUESTION: So the answer – the answer – but this – no, no, no, no. Let me – because this is not a hypothetical. If you are – if you can stand up and say that you are willing – the government is willing to say that it would condemn any violations of diplomatic immunities or the protocols in the Vienna Conventions, then –

    MS. PSAKI: Matt, I’m not going to get into a broad hypothetical with you.

    QUESTION: It’s not a hypothetical. It’s not a hypothetical.

    QUESTION: But this did happen. The President of Bolivia had to spend – I mean, sorry, Ecuador – had to spend –

    QUESTION: No, Bolivia.

    MS. PSAKI: Bolivia.

  273. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Jul, 2013 - 7:01 pm

  274. And so is this largely a message to South America, that ‘We can do anything we want, so don’t even think about messing with us in any way whatsoever’? Next time, they’ll crash the ‘plane, possibly using a Jihadist patsy or else a missile.

    Think: Dag Hammarskjold.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/17/dag-hammarskjold-un-secretary-general-crash

  275. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/18/inquiry-death-un-dag-hammarskjold-2

    At the time, many people thought there’d been a conspiracy. Typically, it takes 50 years…. and then, when it no longer matters, politically, they say, “Ah well, there may have been a conspiracy, after all!”

  276. Right, Suhayl Saadi, there are conspiracies all the time, and the more complicated they are, the more likely they will cause surprises, unexpected consequences, and the like, leading to difficult outcomes which researchers either accidentally or deliberately are apt to get wrong.

    Plotted assassinations of single individuals are much more apt to go according to plan, like those of Anna Lindh, MLK, RFK, Governor Wallace, Alexandr Litvinenko, etc., ad nauseam.

    When you mix them with something else, like getting rid of Castro’s Cuba, or the Soviet Union, they almost invariably go wrong.

    In the Bolivian President’s fiasco, conditions are already getting fuzzy by people talking about the denial of air space to the plane when the Spanish Foreign Minister said that it was diverted, apparently by threats of force, to go to Vienna.

    This was a massive cockup which ended up being a surprise act of war.

  277. Yes, those are some excellent points, Trowbridge. And of course, the SIS is likely to have played a central role in the assassination of Patrice Lumumba too.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/02/mi6-patrice-lumumba-assassination

  278. “At a rally before the meeting, Maduro claimed that the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had ordered France, Portugal, Italy and Spain to deny access to Morales’s plane on Tuesday.

    “‘A minister of one of these European governments personally told us by telephone that they were going to apologise because they were surprised, and that those who gave the order to aviation authorities in this country … were the CIA,’ he said.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-07-05-bolivia-threatens-to-close-us-embassy-2

    “Has someone got a copy of the US arrest warrant served on Ireland?”

    I’ll see about putting in an FOI request. They’ll have a month to respond. I can’t see any reason they could use to refuse it.

    I wonder if the U.S. has described him correctly in the arrest warrant. I’ve seen him referred to as ‘stateless’ now (I think by himself) but revoking a passport is not the same as revoking citizenship, surely.

  279. “US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had ordered France, Portugal, Italy and Spain …”

    God, that just makes me incandescent!

  280. Yes, me too, Dreolin. I think that we – I mean all of us – need independence, don’t you? Because what this episode most clearly has demonstrated is that we are not independent. We are a large US colony (and there is no hyperbole in that statement). I always knew that The UK had been craven to the USA since 1956, but it’s now become obvious to the world that the rest of Europe is too. This is a declaration of war against what used to be known as, ‘The Third World’. Well, no, actually we’ve been at war with the ‘Third World’ for at least two hundred-and-fifty years. I think henceforth we should refer to the CIA as our Government. We are ruled from Langley, Virginia and the Director of the CIA is our Colonial Governor. The gloves are off, the masks are off. The truth is revealed. Good.

    That there is little anger at all this from within our establishments is emblematic of the lobotomisation of our political culture.

  281. Agree 100% Suhayl.

    I would have half-expected Europe to cave to the U.S., but the confirmation has left me angry.

    I do NOT live in the jurisdiction of the United States but I can repeat that till I’m blue in the face and it’ll change nothing, in reality.

  282. From a link posted by Ben on the ‘Pandering to Racism’ thread

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2013/07/211535.htm#SNOWDEN

    MS. PSAKI “The public – many – the public – but decisions made over the course of the last week or so, whether they’re public comments about whether or not they’ll accept asylum – his asylum request, or whether it’s closing airspace, are decisions made by individual countries. And I would point you to them to describe why they made decisions if they made decisions, and I know there have already been a range of public comments out there.”

  283. Possibly disinformation … who knows?

    “The Austrian daily newspaper, Die Presse, has reported that the United States ambassador to Austria was responsible for making false claims that National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden was on board Bolivian President Evo Morales’ plane.”

    http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/ambassador-snitc

  284. Sorry, here’s the corrct link:
    http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/ambassador-snitch

  285. RT reporting that a pre-emptive arrest warrant has been issued to the Irish Government. In case Snowden stops over in Shannon airport. I am reminded of Zakalwe in Use of Weapons, bemoaning the fact The Culture had simply no idea about fair play.

    And, it has been noticeable how many Governments the world over just roll over to have their bellies tickled. By noticeable I meant ‘pathetic’. Every time Hague, or Bob Carr wibbles on, I just feel a profound embarrassment. They are clearly just bought and paid for, and Bob Carr in particular just isn’t especially bright. This is the quality of ‘leadership’ the US gives us, and it isn’t impressive.

  286. “Use of No Fly List to Pressure Americans Abroad to Become Informants

    The number of U.S. persons on the No Fly List has more than doubled since 2009, and people mistakenly on the list are denied their due process rights to meaningfully challenge their inclusion. In many cases Americans only find out they are on the list while they are traveling abroad, which all but forces them to interact with the U.S. government from a position of extreme vulnerability, and often without easy access to counsel. Many of those prevented from flying home have been subjected to FBI interviews while they sought assistance from U.S. Embassies to return. In those interviews, FBI agents sometimes offer to take people off the No Fly List if they agree to become an FBI informant. In 2010 the ACLU and its affiliates filed a lawsuit on behalf of 10 American citizens and permanent residents, including several U.S. military veterans, seven of whom were prevented from returning home until the suit was filed. We argue that barring them from flying without due process was unconstitutional. There are now 13 plaintiffs; none have been charged with a crime, told why they are barred from flying, or given an opportunity to challenge their inclusion on the No Fly List.”

    http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/ten-most-disturbing-things-you-should-know-about-fbi-911

  287. Thanks for that link, Macky – that’s a handy checklist for most of the world’s population to keep in its back pocket. S’Funny, but I could swear that the jurisdiction of the FBI was meant to be internal to the US – certainly not the case anymore. Raided Bradley Manning’s mum in Wales (and she’s poorly, the bastards); conducted unauthorised interrogations of teenage informants in Iceland about Wikileaks; the list goes on…

    Unrelated, but I read a very good article about how Correa was between a rock and a hard place re Snowden:

    http://www.ibtimes.com/ed-snowden-throws-ecuador-disarray-government-may-have-proposal-him-assange-1334937#.UdcHxAE2-Ck.twitter

    The desire to protect a human rights whistleblower was there – and still very much ‘live’ – but it was going to severely dent Ecuador’s efforts to attract foreign investment to keep the Amazon oil deposits underground (worth $6 bn, and Ecuador was looking for $3bn to fund this environmental effort to avoid the drilling) – the US would most certainly put the kibosh on any of that investment flow if Snowden ended up in Ecuador.

    Apparently, Correa has now gone off on the holiday he delayed last week to deal with the chaos Snowden’s asylum application created (instant MSM smear drives, hacking of government communications, etc). Perhaps the leaders of UNASUR had a quiet chat behind the scenes about what they could collectively come up with to help Snowden, so Correa knew it’d be safe to start that holiday last night. ;)

    In terms of resisting US pressure, Venezuela is by far the best option. Presumably, the rest of the Latam left bloc will rally behind Maturo now. The Morales plane incident gave them all the excuse they need (not that their outrage isn’t justified and totally sincere, of course – but it is convenient ;) ). Looks like Julian Assange’s initial assessment when Snowden first appeared that Latam was the place to head was spot on.

    Well played, everyone! Well played.

  288. The turf wars between the Bureau and the CIA continue to go on, Arbed, despite any laws, and assurances about cooperating in investigations.

    After the 9/11 cockups, the CIA embedded at least four agents within the New York Police Department to make sure that it did not discover that it had taken over surveillance of the 19 high jackers in the hope of catching them red-handed when all the planes landed at LA’s International Airport.

    Unfortunately, they proved to be suicide bombers, killing 15 unarmed CIA agents on the three last planes in the process = what the US government still keeps covered up by refusing to release the full passenger lists.

    Of course, the embedded agents made sure that the NYPD never got onto this, taking leaves of absence from the Agency and other subterfuge to engage in illegal domestic law enforcement and domestic spying.

    The Bureau’s engaging in foreign spying and law enforcement even helped trigger Snowden’s whistle blowing, the way I see it. The Bureau acted way too unilaterally in entrapping defense contractor Ben Bishop in a honey-trap operation in Hawaii. And when the CIA learned of Snowden’s growing disaffection, it tried to use the same Chinese national, known as Person 1 in the Bishop case, to snare Snowdev. When he learned, it seems, what was afoot, he fled to HK with all the secrets, the most telling of which remain to be revealed, he could lay his hands on.

    Interesting that the NYT cannot bring itself to face up to the full scope of the problems Snowden has raised, only alluding, for example, to the questions the embedding of the Agency agents in the NYPD after 9/11 raised in today’s issue.

  289. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 3:19 pm

    Venezuela offers asylum. Also Nicaragua (Daniel Ortega)

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/

  290. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 3:24 pm

    Oh I missed Suhayl’s entry. Ironic that Daniel Ortega, still alive, has offered sanctuary some 30 years after the Agency first sought his demise.

  291. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 3:25 pm

    “The desire to protect a human rights whistleblower was there – and still very much ‘live’ – but it was going to severely dent Ecuador’s efforts to attract foreign investment to keep the Amazon oil deposits underground (worth $6 bn, and Ecuador was looking for $3bn to fund this environmental effort to avoid the drilling) – the US would most certainly put the kibosh on any of that investment flow if Snowden ended up in Ecuador.”

    Carrot/stick diplomacy, Arbed.

  292. “Lost a post through CAPTCHA censorship, …”

    Hilarious.

  293. There is always something funny about you, Jemand.

  294. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 4:27 pm

    Some payoff for Guardian. Now if the Media could understand their traffic, ratings and circulation could improve by serving the Public interest.

    http://paidcontent.org/2013/07/05/guardian-gets-online-traffic-boost-from-snowden-story-now-nipping-at-nyts-heels/

  295. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 4:35 pm

    Bolivia now offering asylum

  296. Think I have finally figured out why the Bureau is so interested in making out that I may have been acting as one Stephen Nickerson, known him, or consulted with him.

    The FBI has been most eager to determine if the Chinese really have an American asset involved in naval research – i.e., what Person 1 in the Ben Bishop alleged spy case was constantly asking him about, and suspect that a Stephen Nickerson may be he, and I might be fitted up as he or able to shed light on it.

    The most likely suspect seems to be another one around the Denver area – like the photographer Steve Nickerson who died a few Saturdays ago.

    This one is a systems engineering senior MGR in research and development in the Lockheed Martin plant in the greater Denver area.

    Seems that the Bureau wanted to drag in this Stephen Nickerson, rightly or wrongly, into the honey-trap the Chinese national was trying to drag Snowden into, so that the Agency would have a more concrete spying case against him, and probably me.

    Lockheed Martin is, of course, deeply involved in military research and development. Just last year it signed a large contract from the Office of Naval Research to develop of all kinds of solid state electrical sources for strategic and tactical purposes.

    Just too bad that the Bureau is more interested in making spies rather than just dealing with the ones who just come along.

  297. Trowbridge – “There is always something funny about you, Jemand.”

    I often try to be, but usually to no avail, alas. But thanks, Trowbridge. Nice to be appreciated.

    Can I invite you to comment on how current events might be connected with the Whitlam dismissal, if you see any connection?

  298. Sure, Jenand.

    Whitlam and Snowden were decent chaps, trying to do their jobs, only to find out that they were caught, as they say,, between a rock and a hard place.

    When Whitlam became Australia’s PM, he knew that a lot of things needed to be cleaned up, like shutting down what the Americans were doing at Pine Gap, and cleaning up their establishments on the Northwest Cape, only to learn that the country had been taken over by the Agency’s drug thugs, starting with Ted Shackley and DCI Pappy Bush.

    They got Governor General Sir James Kerr to dismiss him, and he was gone for good.

    Snowden was an accomplished hacker, most willing to keep secrets, and cut the balls off those who disclosed them, only to learn that his employers were quite willing to betray naive Americans who worked them aka the Manhattan 11, and kill those who seriously complained about it, like Gareth Williams, Gudrun Loftus and John Wheeler.

    The only reason that Snowden hasn’t yet been destroyed is that he saw what was coming, and took all the counter measures he could to save himself.

    in sum, he is becoming a hero rather than just another nobody.

  299. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 5:40 pm

    Trowbridge;

    Speaking of Whitlam, I remember Christopher Boyce, who had a Manning-type meltdown and flew into a self-destructive life-path. It was the erroneous cable @TRW which sent him flying.

    It goes to show, that a lot of the recruitment for security clearance employment is the ‘good ole boy’ network, and is highly suspect to outbreaks of conscience and fury.

  300. Right, Ben, Boyce is Snowden’s model, and probable hero.

    Snowden knows to deal with others directly, don’t trust anyone naively, and to never give up – what led to Boyce’s betrayal.

    And can anyone doubt that he did the right thing despite paying most heavily for it.

    Loved the CNN interview with Boyce when it acted as if the criminality of Bush et al. is still a matter of debate, and the fact that they were running the global drug cartel was simply ignored.

    Hope that Boyce proves wrong in stating that Snowden is doomed. Perhaps, it is just intended to give his enemies a false sense of confidence about it.

  301. US request for extradition of Edward Snowden – full text

    A copy of the request sent to Venezuela to extradite the NSA whistleblower to the US should he arrive in the South American country

    Full document at link http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jul/06/us-request-extradition-edward-snowden

  302. NSA recruitment (“NSA Is Coming to Your Campus”) crashes and burns at University of Wisconsin.

    http://mobandmultitude.com/2013/07/02/the-nsa-comes-recruiting/

    Some students and I had an exchange with NSA recruiters today. The audio and a rough transcript below.

    The NSA came to recruit at a language program at the University of Wisconsin where I am spending my summer learning a language. Two recruiters, a redhead who looked more like a middle-aged 2013 NSA flyer copymother (listed as “NSA_F” below) and a portly, balding man (“NSA_M”), began to go through slides explaining the NSA and its work.

    …Student A (female): I have a lifestyle question that you seem to be selling. It sounds more like a colonial expedition. You know the “globe is our playground” is the words you used, the phrasing that you used and you seem to be saying that you can do your work. You can analyze said documents for your so-called customers but then you can go and get drunk and dress up and have fun without thinking of the repercussions of the info you’re analyzing has on the rest of the world. I also want to know what are the qualifications that one needs to become a whistleblower because that sounds like a much more interesting job. And I think the Edward Snowdens and the Bradley Mannings and Julian Assanges of the world will prevail ultimately.

    Much more at link http://mobandmultitude.com/2013/07/02/the-nsa-comes-recruiting/

  303. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Jul, 2013 - 8:38 pm

    The extradition order had the temerity to invoke the Ministry for popular power pg 7

    http://www.oas.org/dil/Nota_República_Bolivariana_Venezuela_to_SG.English.pdf

    “At the time, it was very important for the countries of our region to ratify the American Convention on Human Rights and to institutionalize mechanisms that would help establish a framework for the promotion and protection of human rights in the region. Our country was one of the first to ratify the Pact of San José—it was the only one to have done so through a unilateral declaration—and it was the second to accept the Court’s jurisdiction.
    Later on, as of the promulgation of its Constitution in 1999, the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela focused even more extensively on the human rights and fundamental freedoms and guarantees enjoyed by all residents of the country, while also legally recognizing and upholding the rights of indigenous communities and environmental”

  304. Courtenay Barnett

    7 Jul, 2013 - 12:39 am

    @ Craig,
    You said:-
    “Will EVERYBODY please tackle the arguments commenters make, and not refer to their motives for making them – which you cannot know – or that people are paid, or their personality traits, or somebody else.
    What interests me is the arguments people put. I think most of the imputations made on all sides are probably inaccurate, but even if they were accurate they are irrelevant. A man or woman may be a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit in the pay of the state of Israel, but may still make an argument that is absolutely correct. Please address the argument, not the person. Posts which fail to do this will be deleted when seen.”
    And President Barack Obama said:-
    “I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are.”
    So – the ones who post and debate are really caught between the motives and the cynical and manipulative political processes afoot. The challenge then, for the posters and debaters, is to distinguish between the initial appearance and the underlying reality.
    CB

  305. “A man or woman may be a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit in the pay of the state of Israel…” Craig.

    I see Robert Newton as Bill Sykes, in the 1948 film version of ‘Oliver Twist’.

  306. Michael Moore has tweeted (and Wikileaks has re-tweeted)

    Michael Moore ‏@MMFlint
    The most badass thing Morales could do is fly back to Moscow, NOW, pick up Snowden, & take him out of there — and dare Europe to stop him.

    While I agree totally with the sentiment, this statement seems to have been made without any knowledge of aicrafts’ ranges and refuelling.

    The government of Bolivia can’t just lay its hands on an aircraft able to fly non-stop from Moscow to Bolivia..

    The need to refuel is what the whole business about the Canary Islands and the Spanish ambassador was about. It’s also what the business about Ireland and Shannon was about. And the opponents are powerful – able to coerce some other governments into tearing up overflight permissions at the last moment. (Hello France.)

    Of course people can say just fly out of there and dare them not to allow you an emergency landing. But then you find you’re stuck at Schwechat in Austria. Next time, if this were tried, it could be an airport where the US would get whatever they wanted, such as Heathrow. In short, there are serious problems here.

    Maybe something like Moscow-Iceland-Cuba-Bolivia would work?

  307. “Maybe something like Moscow-Iceland-Cuba-Bolivia would work?” N_

    We could ask The Lonely Planet guide?

    “What d’you do if you’re a whistleblower, stuck in Moscow and the CIA-FBI-NSA-MI6-MI5-GCHQ-USAF-Old-Uncle-Tom-Cobbly-And-all are after you?”

    Or he could go to Vladivostok and then catch a slow boat to Ecuador? Mind you, the US Navy would intercept in the Pacific. Iceland is dodgy. They are vulnerable in every way and don’t have the firepower to take on the USAF, which would have no hestitation about breaching the airspace of a sovereign nation. In short, they cannot bomb Washington, DC. China and Russia are too big to take on and doing so would risk WW3; that is why he has remained in those two countries.

    It is entirely possible, then, that Our Man in Moscow may have to remain in Moscow, in the summer to catch the sun and in the winter, to be snowed on. Well, it’s better than being stuck forever in the tiny Ecuadorean Embassy in a hostile London, surrounded by police and spooks and one-eyed assassins. And it’s most certainly better than being stuck in solitary confinement forever in a US ‘Supermax’.

    America is the ‘global policeman’. Unfortunately, the policeman is “a one-eyed contract killer”.

  308. Just to clarify: there is a non-stop route between Moscow (SVO) and Havana (HAV).

    Maybe a ‘sealed cabin’ option might be playable? A ‘little piece of Bolivia’ (or Venezuela etc.) could be created on the plane?

    After all, if a little bit of Scotland could be created at Camp Zeist in the Netherlands, and a little piece of Russia was established on the train which took Lenin and his mates across Germany during WW1.

    I am told that the Bolivian presidential plane, which has nothing like this range, uses French pilots.

    As usual, both the press coverage and the chatter are nowhere near getting to grips with either the technical or the legal issues involved.

    The fact that the FSB (former internal part of the KGB) ‘holds the body’ gives them a very strong hand in this.

    Which may be related to the fact that Snowden has gone into silent mode.

    Russian state co-operation is necessary.

  309. You may be right about Russia and China.

    But it’s hard to see what the US airforce could do over Iceland. There is no longer a US base or overt military presence in that country. (This has changed since Bobby Fischer flew there, when he made sure he didn’t fly to Keflavik.) If the plane carrying Snowden did not have sufficient fuel, the US airforce could not force it out to land in another country. They could take over an airport – Iceland is practically defenceless – and force it to land there, and get the media to ‘file under Entebbe’ and eschew the word ‘invasion’. Or they could shoot it down and tell the world there’d been an unfortunate accident, or blame the Russians, or whatever.

    A lot of Russian state co-operation would be necessary to any longer-haul option. I think perhaps a fair amount would be necessary even to an Icelandic option.

    Isn’t the Pacific a US lake? :-)

  310. “Maybe a ‘sealed cabin’ option might be playable? A ‘little piece of Bolivia’ (or Venezuela etc.) could be created on the plane?” N_

    First, you’d need some pan-pipes…

  311. “I see Robert Newton as Bill Sykes, in the 1948 film version of ‘Oliver Twist’”

    Hah!

  312. Edward Snowden finds an unlikely admirer in former Stasi agent:

    Memories of the Gestapo and Stasi inform the debate on surveillance in Germany

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/edward-snowden-finds-an-unlikely-admirer-in-former-stasi-agent-1.1453161

  313. @Suhayl – sorry, the pan-pipes reference went over my head! :-) You think the ‘sealed cabin’ idea is too fantastical? I’m guessing Russia don’t want to be seen to help too much. Great scope for creativity remains, in a context where even the ‘international status’ of international transit zones at airports is unclear – and some would say even fantastic, arguing that Snowden is in the Russian jurisdiction even if he hasn’t gone through immigration. (But then too many questions might get asked about the ease of transit for certain goods, not just at Sheremetevo, but at several major international airports around the world.)

    I’m still curious as to when Russia set up a consulate at its own airport. Back in the day, Sheremetevo used to under one Boris Berezovsky and pals.

    Even if money changes hands so that the Aeroflot flight skirts US airspace on its way to Havana, the US airforce could still mob it above the Atlantic somewhere, and force it to land in the US.

    That said, if Russia’s navy could chase the MV Arctic Sea all the way to Cape Verde, her airforce could provide an escort to Havana, although they probably wouldn’t want to, and we’re not at that stage yet.

  314. “For now, the wave of protest by Germans at alleged NSA surveillance of their emails and phone calls appears to be contained online. This modern form of internet dissent is one for which Germans have adopted the anglicism ‘shitstorm’ – this week given a place of honour in the German language by entering the latest edition of the Duden dictionary.”

    Haha! brilliant. [Or Scheißesturm I suppose, if you're fanatical about the purity of languages.]

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/edward-snowden-finds-an-unlikely-admirer-in-former-stasi-agent-1.1453161

  315. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 4:20 pm

    Don’t you mean ‘stoirm cac’, Dreoilin..

  316. I do Ben, I do …

    Never heard it though. In Connemara and Gweedore they probably say shitstorm too. ;)

  317. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 5:10 pm

    N_;

    In 2005 Iceland was much (as most were) better economically. Now they are floundering, and this is part of the reluctance for full support. Also they need to meet UN protocols, (see my earlier comment) in order to proceed and the UN Sec Gen has already indicated he thinks Snowden violated the law. Venezuela seems to be the only option.

  318. @Ben

    Agreed about the significance of Iceland’s economic position.

    But the UN protocols to which you refer do not bear on Snowden’s case. They are only about Iceland’s quota of UNHCR-nominated refugees. (“Quota” being a good Icelandic economic concept! [wink!]). They don’t stop Iceland from granting asylum or citizenship to whomever they want to.

    Nor is the UN Sec Gen’s opinion on Snowden of any legal importance. The UN has no jurisdiction enabling it to stop a country granting asylum or citizenship; or for that matter, any jurisdiction to decide that someone has broken US law.

    Even if for the sake of argument it were accepted that Snowden broke the law in the US, this would not prevent another country from granting asylum. Usually extradition laws contain the provision has to be an offence of at least a certain magnitude in the country which is being asked to extradite. A woman who has driven a car in Saudi Arabia in violation of Saudi law will not be extradited for the offence by an English court.

    Moreover, there is usually provision for political offences to be exempted.

    In the specific case of Iceland, as I understand it, the relevant treaty is between the US and Denmark, and as yet, no US authority has alleged that Snowden has committed any of the extraditable offences (murder, manslaughter, arson, robbery, forgert, counterfeiting, embezzlement, fraud, perjury, rape, abduction, piracy and certain other maritime crimes, slaving, procuring abortion).

  319. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 7:29 am

    What bilge from this posh boy*.

    eg ‘Why do we find Snowden and Assange such fascinating figures? They are postmodern outlaws, frustrated nomads who have given up the comforts of an ordinarily rooted life. They are compelling because their predicament is both horrifying and seductive.’

    In depth: Julian Assange and Edward Snowden – enemies of the state take flight
    By seeking refuge in limbo while fleeing the most powerful nation on Earth, they exemplify the romance of the contemporary fugitive

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/in-depth-julian-assange-and-edward-snowden–enemies-of-the-state-take-flight-8692598.html

    * son of Sir Christopher Bland ex chairman BBC etc, See Early Life and Education – Winchester and Cambridge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Bland

  320. “The pilots of a passenger jet which crashed in the United States tried to abort their landing as stall warnings filled the cockpit moments before impact, according to safety officials.

    “Two people died and 182 were injured when the Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 crashed late on Saturday at the San Francisco International Airport. The plane was carrying 307 people.

    “Asiana said on Monday that the pilot was “in training” and that it was his first flight into the city at the controls of a 777.”

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/07/201376191550136917.html

  321. Flaming June (7.29am), did you see my post about censorship of the readers’ comments under that article?

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/why-i-am-convinced-that-anna-ardin-is-a-liar/comment-page-8/#comment-416988

    and passim.

    I’m trying to dig a bit to find out what was behind it all.

  322. Rastafari - Sweden

    13 Jul, 2013 - 10:07 am

    Excellent article by swedish based American journalist Al Burke. Pity that google translate does not do the article justice.

    Sweden´s hounding of Assange by Al Burke:
    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdebatt.svt.se%2F2013%2F07%2F12%2Fassange-jobbar-vidare-trots-hetsjakten%2F

  323. Weightloss, it is an immense, dare I say, an obese, pleasure! Do partake of this gustatory slice of site again, won’t you, there’s a good spammer? And don’t forget, spam is good for the figure!

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted by Expathos