Counter-Revolution

by craig on July 4, 2013 8:49 am in Uncategorized

What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.

Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds.  It will of course be in the name of secularism.  There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt.  I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast.  “Secularism” was the cry there too.

 

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712 Comments

  1. Yes, I agree, Fred, 8:18am, the caveman image deployed by Cryptonym was a bit heavy and personal. Such things ought to be avoided. Still, it’s so very ridiculous and cartoonish, it’s rather silly; Fred Flintstone, yes, ha, ha, blah, blah, blah. Crytonym should be cyber-whipped six-and-a-half times with a thick, black leather thong by a dominatrix dressed as a lizard. At least you’re not being accused of being a “ziofuckwit” or of wearing a tutu (not that there’s anything instrinsically wrong with wearing a tutu). Still, you’re quite right, ad hominems best avoided, as Craig advised.

    Speaking for myself, I am not a nationalist, I ahve a natural repulsion for flags and national anthems, and having been mildly opposed to it for many years, nowadays I keep an open mind about Scottish independence, though now it might be only way to minimise the damage of fundamentalist neoliberalism. I have little innate faith that our politicians won’t U-turn on most important thkngs (see also under NATO, Nukes…).

  2. Oddie, 7 Jul, 2013 – 2:32 am. It is because PressTV is reporting on news stories the owners of mainstream media outlets do not want you to see. The Bilderberger, Richard Branson, does not allow Russia Today on Virgin, to which I subscribe (but am thinking of leaving). It’s available on Freeview. The trouble is all the cables are Virgin and I could do without the hassle.

  3. Unfair to smear the move towards secularism. Secularism in the region is a logical and rational choice.
    Secularism would protect all faiths and none under the rule of law, in stark contrast to the various religious regimes that do not protect citizens of different faiths and of no faith.
    Unfair and misguiding to draw a connection between modern secularism and nationalism.

  4. It is because PressTV is reporting on news stories the owners of mainstream media outlets do not want you to see.

    You bet. US Foreign Asset Control Dpt. is hot on the tail of PressTV to stop it from ruining the bubble that the Western mejdia have so carefully built up around their audiences, keeping these poor audiences in near complete state of ignorance.

    Although an arch ziofuckwit Adam Szubin heading the AFCD, to begin with was coordinating his war on freedom of speech/press/expression through his mate Michel de Rosen, the French-Israeli CEO of Eutelsat (Europe’s satellite giant). De Rosen had been sending all manner of nasty letters with threats of hell fire and brimstones to other satellite owner operators in Europe and elsewhere. Informing these other companies about the EU sanctions on someone supposedly in charge of PressTV. This by default then had been made out to be an EU sanction on PressTV as a whole.

    However When EU commission was approached by the “Sanctioned Chap”, EU responded; there wre no Sanctions against PressTV! This fact however has not deterred the shameless ziofuckwit Michel de Rosen, who has changed his letter from EU sanctions to US sanctions in a heartbeat.

    This is the kind of gaming the system that these ziofuckwit bastards have been busy getting away with, while the world has sat by idle, and tried to reason and understand/explain away the supremacist, racist, and murderous motives of the ziofuckwits, all in the best possible way.

    ====

    At least you’re not being accused of being a “ziofuckwit”

    What are you on about?

  5. fedup, 11:08am, 7.7.13:

    It’s like Monty Python and “the Spanish Inquisition”!

    “Zio… No, I won’t say it. Z-z-z-z… I will not say it. Ziofu… I most definitely am not going to say it! No, I didn’t say it. No, not me. Must’ve just come through the ether.”

  6. Last month astronomers reported discovered three planets, similar to Earth, orbiting around a single star which may be able to support life.

    Researchers estimate there could be as many as 100 billion planets similar to the Earth in our galaxy, the Milky Way.

    Humanity has always got it “right”: Earth is flat, Earth is the centre of the universe, Sun goes around the Earth, Earth is the only planet with water, Earth is the only planet with life, Earth and its resources belong to a handful few wankers because they have bought the biggest army on the Earth!

    Whilst we are witnessing the mass murder of human beings, and the claims of; supremacy, secularism is good, religion is bad, human beings are crap, human beings destroy the Planet, ……. There is only one hundred thousand million other planets that don’t have water, are not centre of the universe, and do not have life on these.

    Is any of our killing technologies capable of repelling any other galactic marauders claiming to be the masters of universe, or have we just learned to beat on human beings, in a fashion after our ancestors; the monkeys, chimps, and the apes?

    =======

    It’s like Monty Python and “the Spanish Inquisition”!

    No its not!

    Your intonation of being; ” accused of being a “ziofuckwit””.

    Thanks for the laugh though.

  7. “It is because PressTV is reporting on news stories the owners of mainstream media outlets do not want you to see. ”

    For example?

  8. Departing Aircraft (United 285?):

    “United 885″ it was. No doubt they saw this happen right in front of them.

  9. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 2:26 pm

    They are all in it (the royal box)j together today – General Richards, Agent Cameron, Victoria Beckham……….

    :)

  10. Fred: the only bullying and intimidation in this odd affair was the ambushing of Susan Calman, by Miles Jupp, broadcast by the BBC, it was cruel, unfunny and quite deliberately done, I had never in years of News Quiz listening, going back to the days of Barry Took and Richard Ingrams, heard anything so ugly as this, and Ms. Calman not surpisingly handled it badly. If these supposed subsequent threats were genuine then it would be possible to substantiate them indeed it is important that they are substantiated and the source of them, if any, is identified unquestionably. I think the silence that has followed the media’s glee-filled exploitation of the claims of threats, tells us all we need to know about those claims veracity.

    Don’t let the fact the story is old and has no legs stop you, if it floats your boat.

  11. For those speculating about the plane emergency, my past boss has given his opinion:

    From Husam Alshamlan
    I was Aviation Safety Director for the State of Kuwait for years , and was an Accident Investigator for even more years , and I was always very reluctant to give an opinion on an accident before thoroughly looking at the data on the ” Black Boxes ” and taking all factors in any crash into consideration .
    On this occasion , I will make an exception . From the pictures that I have seen and the other limited information about the weather at destination and the runway conditions , I will venture an opinion .
    The crash was caused by a very heavy landing that caused the tail of the airplane to strike the ground first and make it brake off just aft of the pressure bulkhead

  12. The fucking cheek of it! Give MPs a pay rise or risk another expenses scandal, says Ipsa chief

    He said the decision would be “difficult” but the regulator “will not shirk our responsibility to make a determination simply because the task is difficult”.

    ie (we will do what the fuck we like)

    Dunchyou luv the smell of democracy?

    The practically free booze, meals, and perks as well as the expenses and now pay rises, hows about those MPs who can do better go and find a better remuneration they deserve there in the “private sector”, and let we the people apply for the MPs vacancy in the parliament?

    “Having a Parliament accessible to all, one which does not deter the less well-off from seeking election, one which does not require MPs without independent means to seek patronage, is crucial to the continuing health of our democracy.

    WTF are you going on about mate? Less well off? Their salary already is considered a fantastic salary by those of us less well off, if these millionaire wannabe bastards have ideas above their station; they can always seek alternative employment elsewhere.

    I will do the job for half their existing salaries mate, and I am sure others would join me in taking the said jobs too. This is beyond the pale, whilst these free loading bastards are ordering bedroom taxes, and cuts in pensions, and sickness befits, are all too happy to contract out their salaries to an “independent” outfit, and sit back and luxuriate in their new found worth.

    How much was the cost of this “independent” report? Hows about the MPs learn to live within their means and not to fiddle their expenses, and if they cannot live on the “poor” MPs salary, they can always find a part time job (but they have many revenue streams already), or better still; piss off and find a better job somewhere else, and let we the people have a crack at sitting in the parliament and harrumphing away.

  13. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 5:15 pm

    Well Milipede E is spending his day of rest at Wimbledon in the royal box. Salmond is also there. Haven’t seen Cleggover or Pippa though.

    Mrs Beckham appears to be wearing some lingerie. Another footballer’s wife Colleen Rooney is also there with her husband.

    Mail is good for photos.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357781/Wimbledon-final-Murray-sizzles-Centre-Court-goes-sets-Djokovic-temperatures-hit-40C.html

  14. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 5:33 pm

    “We’ve waited 77 years for this”, says Ms Barker referring to the last winner of the men’s championship at Wimbledon. I did not know that Fred Perry was Scottish like Murray. :) .

  15. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 7:16 pm

    Well, you’ll be pleased to hear that I’m back after a short trip.

    [Mod/Jon: post just used for sniping, removed. Please engage with just the issues, thanks]

  16. “Well, you’ll be pleased to hear that I’m back after a short trip.” Habbabkuk.

    Blotter, or windowpane?

  17. Everything but the kitchen sink (and Ken Loach). Do not rise, all (as the Queen Mother never intoned).

  18. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 8:28 pm

    @ Suhayl

    No, it’s simply interesting to come back to the threads after a few days away and to notice that it’s as if one had never been gone. Bit like a bad university lecturer really – you can miss his lectures in weeks 3 and 4 but in reality you’ve missed nothing at all.
    But don’t let me spoil your appreciation and enjoyment :)

  19. Chris Jones

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:30 pm

    @Fred – Maybe its time for you to start making full use of all your faculties. You have heard of psy ops and the like I take it? And I’m sure you are aware of the rather unpleasant habits of one of the worst examples of extreme imperialist eugenic nationalism,the British state, in the last 200 years? Maybe thats the kind of nationalism you prefer over the non imperial reasonable and democratic type?

    Talk about psy ops – heres a quote from the links demonstrating those lost cause mouth pieces for the British regime again:

    “Earlier this year the BBC admitted that a claim made by the presenter, that anti-English attacks had increased in Scotland, was untrue, but insisted it was not deliberate”

    …sigh

  20. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    I have just seen a brilliant play performed by an amateur group which took the form of readings from news items of the time, local and national, letters, anecdotes, sound recordings and song about the life, and very tragic death by cyanide poisoning, of Alan Turing. Just as with Dr Kelly’s death, allegedly by suicide, no note was left.

    The earlier days of espionage and surveillance were outlined and the development of use of wireless signals.

    After the end of the WWI an establishment called GC&CS or GCCS was set up in London, the Government Code and Cypher School. the forerunner of GCHQ.

    The work of Turing at Bletchley Park (where GC&CS located) on the Enigma Code was described.

    Nothing changes.

    ‘The Code Breaker

    Apollo Theatre Company presents an original piece about Alan Turing who was key to cracking the German enigma code in WW2. He grew up in Guildford and the show comprises material such as local paper cuttings from the Surrey Advertiser at the time, as well as extracts from books about Turing and his work.’

    http://vimeo.com/68290523

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

  21. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:53 pm

    “For me somehow, the words “Kissinger” and “principle” don’t seem to belong in the same sentence.

    There must be a good grammatical reason.

    Or maybe it’s the impossible logic of it.

    Just plain tautological.”
    _________

    A tautology?

    Surely not.

    Try “oxymoron”.

    Better still, invest in a good dictionary (I recommend the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary in 2 vols.).

  22. Is there a Flight 587 “blog” ?

  23. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 9:58 pm

    [Mod/Jon: removed excessive commentary about another poster, please stick to topics]

  24. Flaming June

    7 Jul, 2013 - 10:07 pm

    Yes Anon, from the following thread wishing Craig well, I spotted Salmond strategically placed behind Agent Cameron waving the Saltyre.

    Cameron is hoping that any reflected glory from his presence at Murray’s golden field of victory might detract from Theresa May’s who was all over the ‘medja’ today crowing about Abu Qatada’s deportation.

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/07/article-2357781-1AB3808D000005DC-61_964x610.jpg

    We can see right through him.

    May now proposes to amend the Immigration Act, limiting the number of appeals and taking away the right to human life for some she doesn’t think should have it, and to replace the Human Rights Act with some sort of UK Bill of Rights. She is a dangerous woman. She longs to be PM of course.

  25. Edward Snowden, if you do not know about the Sauron programme you need to know.

    http://www.chronicle.su/news/snowden-unveils-nsa-spy-satellite-sauron-program-targeting-us-citizens/

    It is why you should sign the Epetition on my blog.

  26. Posting this here as I don’t want to disrupt the thread of Good Wishes on today’s post.

    Interesting example of blatant censorship in the Independent today, details here:

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/why-i-am-convinced-that-anna-ardin-is-a-liar/comment-page-8/#comment-416988

    Does anyone know what the Independent’s take-down policy is for below-the-line stuff posted by readers? Is it before or after receiving formal notification from an aggrieved party? (Apparently, the plaintiff’s counsel for one of the women in the Assange case (also the family lawyer for Sweden’s Prime Minister, Fredrik Reinfeldt) recently liaised directly with the Independent to place a press release. So I’m wondering if any take-down notification came from that direction?)

  27. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 10:48 pm

    Surely all of Britain – or at least those who love and cherish her and wish her well – has good reason to feel pleased with some of today’s news.

    Firstly, a Briton has once again won a major tennis tournament last won by another Briton 77 years ago. (NB – Briton : one of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

    And then someone who very probably does not love and cherish Britain and wish her well has finally be deported after due legal process has been scrupulously observed regardless of the time taken to achieve this.

    ___________

    Not to forget the news of a couple of days ago which will be welcomed by people of whatever nationality – that of the conferral of sainthood on the late Holy Father. Rejoice!

  28. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 10:54 pm

    @ Mod/Jon

    Thanks for removing two of my posts and asking me to stay on (the) topic(s).

    What are the topics, though?

    Who sat in the Royal Box at Wimbledon, for example (see posts above)?

  29. @Habba. 9 40pm

    I never thought I’d ever have to say this but Habba, you are quite right.

    As you point out it is in fact an oxymoron. Like “Henry Kissinger-Nobel Peace Laureate” wouldn’t you agree?

    Now I’ll go and stand in the dunce’s corner and read this:

    http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-hkiss.html

  30. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    7 Jul, 2013 - 11:13 pm

    [Mod/Jon: I deleted your post for focussing excessively on another poster - this time about a play, so hardly important. In this instance, an extended appeal to mod about trivial deletions is unwelcome, please discuss something with someone else.]

  31. BrianFujisan

    8 Jul, 2013 - 12:04 am

    Looks like another Truth Seeps out of the Cesspool of Lies

    A massive explosion last Thursday at a major Syrian weapons depot in Latakia, not far from the main port of Tartus, completely destroyed the facility and munitions stored there.

    Tartus is Syria’s main port. It is largely controlled by the Russian military, and the route by which all weapons transported by sea would enter Syria. As such, any advanced Russian weaponry would enter via Tartous and might be stored in the Latakia depot.

    Though the Free Syrian Army took immediate credit for the attack, it was not the responsible party.

    A confidential Israeli source informs me that Israeli forces attacked the site. The target were components of Russia’s SA-300 anti-aircraft missile system which had been shipped by Russia to Tartus and stored in Latakia.

    Richard Silverstein….At -

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/act-of-war-israel-attacks-syrian-weapons-depot-containing-advanced-russian-arms/5341940

  32. Latakia is 44 miles from Tartus, whether that counts as “not far” I suppose is relative.

    If those nasty Israelis destroyed the facility why aren’t the Syrians screaming about it and showing the evidence to the world instead of blaming it on a “technical problem” which, despite claims to the contrary, has been responsible for detonating Russian arms dumps in the past?

  33. Chris Jones

    8 Jul, 2013 - 1:51 am

    The Honourable Craig Murray said: “What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.

    Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism”

    …I can only sadly agree that these particular words are probably true despite the mass hope of 14 million people. But is it just me or has Craig slightly fine tuned the wording of this post? If he has I applaud him because, although as always, I have an enormous respect for him, it irks me when he automatically equates inclusive healthy nationalism/patriotism etc with badness and small mindedness when imperialist nationalism/fascism is all around including within the EU floundering super stateism…

  34. BrianFujisan

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:57 am

    [Mod/Jon: removed, please keep to civil language]

  35. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 6:43 am

    Radio 4 Today announced that Blair will be coming on the programme this morning to speak about Egypt which will be more of the same support for the USUKIsNATO line that the Observer printed.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/06/egypt-middle-east-tony-blair

    Why is he still being given these platforms? He is a broken reed and is completely discredited. His opinions are worthless.

  36. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 6:52 am

    Golden (tennis) balls contd.

    A footnote. I see why Mrs Beckham got a seat. She and Murray share the same agent, Simon Fuller. He propelled the Spice Girls to fame and now manages Murray amongst his many other activities. Must be rolling in it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Fuller

    Murray will soon be rolling in it and is recommended for a knighthood by today’s tabloids.

    ‘Roger Federer has won a record 17 major championships, and the latest estimate of his annual endorsement income is approximately $65 million. Rafael Nadal has won 12 majors, and the latest estimate of his annual endorsements is $21 million. Djokovic has won 6 majors (4 of which being the Australian Open), and the latest estimate of his annual endorsements is $14 million.

    This September 2012 story from London pegged Murray’s endorsements at roughly $9.5 million…which does not account for any new deals signed after his U.S. Open victory.

    As such, and in light of his historic achievement at the 2013 Wimbledon Championships, expect Murray’s annual endorsement earnings to be at least on par with Djokovic by the end of fiscal 2013. And if 2-3 more majors follow in the coming years, eclipsing $20 million annually in endorsements is not impossible.’

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/07/07/andy-murray-boosts-future-endorsement-earnings-ending-britains-77-year-drought-at-wimbledon/

    Wow!

  37. At Salon

    “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”: The new warrior cop is out of control

    ‘SWAT teams raiding poker games and trying to stop underage drinking? Overwhelming paramilitary force is on the rise’

    http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/

  38. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 8:31 am

    [Mod/Jon, thanks for the moderation report, done]

  39. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 8:32 am

    Escalation. 35 killed this morning in an attack by the military when the Muslim Brotherhood stormed a building where they believe Morsi is being held.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1112787/egypt-morsi-supporters-shot-dead-at-barracks

  40. @Suhayl Saadi “You’d like the CIA and the Mafia to be in control of a country.” Ideally countries should be in control of democrats who are not fascists, communists, Islamists, racists or any other groups likely to turn into persecutors and oppressors. Hence the permissibility in theory of the Kissinger principle, though it might often not be a good idea in practice. As for the Mafia, I wish that gangsters may repent of their sins and become useless as criminals.

    “What, you mean death squads..?”

    I disapprove of such methods, and I am glad that I don’t have to authorise assassinations. On the other hand, I don’t mourn for Bin Laden or Awalaki, nor will I mourn if I hear of Zawahiri’s demise.

  41. @Chris “Maybe its time for you to start making full use of all your faculties.”

    I do. When I hear someone is being called a self loathing Jew for opposing Zionism I speak out and when I hear someone being called a self loathing Scot for opposing Nationalism I do the same. It is wrong, no amount of Nationalist propaganda or attempts to demonise the victim can make it right.

  42. At least 53 pro-Morsi protesters killed in Cairo

    The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood says the death toll from the army’s Monday attack on supporters of ousted President Mohamed Morsi in the capital, Cairo has risen to 53, with five children among the dead.

    Meanwhile, news is emerging of two soldiers “arrested” and held by the Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

    This is hitting up, and there is an escalation by the Muslim Brotherhood calling on all their supporters to rise-up.

  43. I put this (first one) on the previous thread by mistake

    “The pilots of a passenger jet which crashed in the United States tried to abort their landing as stall warnings filled the cockpit moments before impact, according to safety officials.

    “Two people died and 182 were injured when the Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 crashed late on Saturday at the San Francisco International Airport. The plane was carrying 307 people.

    “Asiana said on Monday that the pilot was “in training” and that it was his first flight into the city at the controls of a 777.”

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/07/201376191550136917.html

    Also, video has emerged of the moment of impact

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBi8zR44OsU

    and yes, there is another plane virtually alongside, taking off

    And this from Ch 4 News

    “although he did not comment on reports that one of the Chinese teenagers who died may have been run over by an emergency vehicle.

    “According to the city’s fire department, “one of the deceased did have injuries consistent with having been run over by a vehicle”.”

    http://www.channel4.com/news/san-francisco-plane-crash-pilot-training

    Christ

  44. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 2:03 pm

    She’s in charge.

    Theresa May to ban two extremist groups
    UK-based Minbar Ansar Deen and Nigeria-based Boko Haram are to be proscribed in the UK under terrorism laws
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/08/theresa-may-to-ben-extremist-groups

    ~~

    As Abu Qatada leaves, Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’ to human rights legislation promised after lengthy legal battle that cost taxpayer £1.7m
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/07/abu-qatada-human-rights

    ~~

  45. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 2:14 pm

    The Jillings Report into child abuse at North Wales children’s homes is finally released but it has been heavily redacted.

    ‘An inquiry by John Jillings was carried out in 1996 but shelved due to fears there would be compensation claims.

    The report was finally published following an FoI request by the BBC.

    The 300-page report was initially written in 1996 after it was commissioned by the former Clwyd County Council, which covered the areas now represented by Flintshire, Denbighshire and Wrexham councils.

    PDF download Jillings Report Part One[17MB]

    PDF download Jillings Report Part Two[14 MB]

    It had followed North Wales Police’s investigation into abuse claims in 1991 and the conviction of seven former care workers.

    But as more claims of widespread abuse in almost 40 homes emerged, the former Clwyd County Council commissioned Mr Jillings in March 1994 to investigate.

    However, it was never published.’

    Jillings report: ‘Extensive’ abuse at children’s homes
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23199905

    There is this ominous line in the summary of the Jillings Report findings.

    ’12 children had died.’

  46. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:06 pm

    The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want, etc.

    However. Not if you are Palestinian with a few sheep grazing on the hills of East Jerusalem.

    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_communities_jerusalem_factsheet_june_2013_english.pdf
    Communities in the Jerusalem periphery at risk of forcible transfer | June 2013
    Small herding communities in the hills to the east of Jerusalem are at risk of forcible transfer due to a “relocation” plan advanced by the Israeli authorities.

    Search and arrest. Home demolitions. Displacement of Palestinians. Olive trees uprooted. Gaza fuel shortages. Delays at checkpoints.

    The lists of daily atrocities are endlessly logged by the Orwellian named Office for the Coordination for Humanitarian Affairs, Occupied Palestinian Territories/

    210 pages going back to 2005.
    http://www.ochaopt.org/generalreports.aspx?id=97&page=1

  47. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:12 pm

    “Theresa May to ban two extremist groups
    UK-based Minbar Ansar Deen and Nigeria-based Boko Haram are to be proscribed in the UK under terrorism laws”
    __________

    Presumably the Home Secretary is acting within the law and in acccordance with the powers given to her. Perhaps the poster is only giving us this for information (I had already heard it, thank you)but if not, what is the precise objection to her proposal?

    “As Abu Qatada leaves, Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’ to human rights legislation promised after lengthy legal battle that cost taxpayer £1.7m”
    ________

    The point should perhaps be made that this affairs cost the taxpayer so much precisely because of all the appeal possibilities Mr Qatada was able to benefit from, in accordance with the law and due process.

    As to the promised “wholesale changes” to human rights legislation, perhaps commenters should wait to see which changes are proposed before condemning them sight unseen?

  48. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 3:32 pm

    @ Mod/Jon (re my post at 08h31)

    Glad to have been of help and thank you for your prompt action.

    As I fully understand that you cannot be expected to be on the job 24/24 (the offending post was posted at 3 o’clock in the morning) and that certain posts might slip past you I propose, within my limited possibilities, to continue to help you in your task of ‘cleaning up’ and sharpening this blog by drawing your attention to egregious examples of offensive language and outright trivia (since I understand that the latter appear to have no place here either – cf. your post to me at 23h13 on 7 July).

  49. “I disapprove of such methods, and I am glad that I don’t have to authorise assassinations. On the other hand, I don’t mourn for Bin Laden or Awalaki, nor will I mourn if I hear of Zawahiri’s demise.” Abe Rene.

    The discussion was about Kissinger and also about Cuba. The death squads to which I am referring vis a vis Kissinger were those in ‘Latin’ America, run by the CIA, which routinely targeted and murdered innocent civilians, including health care workers, nuns, children, as well as anyone suspected of any kind of trade union or political activity opposed to their fascist agenda. To conflate these people with say, Osama Bin Laden is preposterous nd inhuman. One might refer to multiple countries in South and Central America over a period of many decades, but especially Guatemala, Chile, Brazil and Nicaragua.

    Wrt carpet bombing and Kissinger, the references would be to North Vietnam and Cambodia, and the mmass murder of many thousands of civilians, plus the destabilsations of Cambodia with further Killng Field consequences.

  50. I’m glad, though, that you disapprove of such methods. But if the Bay of Pigs had been successful – something you suggested you would have liked to have seen happen – we would have seen exactly those methods used on the civilian population of Cuba.

  51. Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’

    Trouble is she has been in contraventions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights up until now, from now she can make legal the illegal and get on with contravening the UDHR legally!

    - – - –

    Small herding communities in the hills to the east of Jerusalem are at risk of forcible transfer due to a “relocation” plan advanced by the Israeli authorities.

    Even nomads are not safe from the marauding hoards of the land stealing ziofuckwits.

    - – - -

    The Jillings Report into child abuse at North Wales children’s homes is finally released but it has been heavily redacted.

    Funny how the “insurance” companies still dictate on how these “reports” should be presented! (shades of Jimmy the kiddie fiddler Savile coverup?).

    - – - -

    “According to the city’s fire department, “one of the deceased did have injuries consistent with having been run over by a vehicle”.”

    Seems the US firefighters are being trained by the same outfit that trains their Police officers!

    The chaff surrounding this crash includes a great deal of efforts directed at deflecting any blame from the aircraft! This coming on the heels of other malfunctions of the various aircraft manufactured by Boeing could have some bearing on the rapid fire theories of the causes for the crash that are emerging.

    - – - -

  52. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 5:04 pm

    Who are the nitwits in Cornwall who re-elected this councillor, possessor of the milk of human kindness? Not.

    Cornwall disabled row councillor Collin Brewer censured

    A councillor has been censured for his “grossly offensive” comments that disabled children should be “put down” and banned from council premises where services for the disabled are provided.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23229088

  53. doug scorgie

    8 Jul, 2013 - 5:32 pm

    One for Blair watchers:

    “Tony Blair hired ex Israeli army intelligence officer despite envoy role”

    “Tony Blair has hired a former Israeli army intelligence officer to work in his private office, despite his role as Middle East peace envoy.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/10164523/Tony-Blair-hired-ex-Israeli-army-intelligence-officer-despite-envoy-role.html

    Related Articles on the above link:

    Blair rich project’s £4m Brazil deal
    18 Nov 2012
    Tony Blair strikes gold in Mongolia
    09 Jun 2013
    Tony Blair widens his web via the stock markets
    13 Jan 2013
    Tony Blair to advise next government of Albania
    19 May 2013

  54. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 5:44 pm

    Galling Doug. And to think we idiot British taxpayers are paying £hundreds of thousands for his ‘security’.

  55. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 6:02 pm

    Even the Mail sees through Cameron.

    The photo opportunity Cameron couldn’t wait for: PM rubs hands with glee as comes out to greet champion Andy Murray at No 10

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2358352/Andy-Murray-smartens-join-PM-Downing-Street-photo-opportunity-Cameron-keen-up.html

  56. A councillor has been censured for his “grossly offensive” comments that disabled children should be “put down” and banned from council premises where services for the disabled are provided.

    This chap needs his legs to be broken and then to be told; he ought to be put down!

    This kind of a wanker really boils my blood, the tosser probably could not hold onto his piss if he were to come across a couple of the lads in an dark allay; asking him for a light. Yet he has the temerity to advocate execution of the disabled and infirm. For the record, disabled children ought to be cherished as much as the able bodied children, for any child is a gift and any gift ought to be welcomed.

    ============

    … role as Middle East peace envoy

    Why do the medjia refer to bLiar as “peace envoy”? Whilst, his office is for him to be in charge of distributing the European funds allocated to Palestinians. Simply put the fox is in charge of the chicken coop. That corrupt bastard steadily will not be able to trust anyone other than his ziofuckwit associates, which he will eventually find this to be akin to jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

  57. Flaming June

    8 Jul, 2013 - 7:05 pm

    Sketch: A day of worship for the almighty Theresa
    Michael Deacon watches MPs takes turns to congratulate Theresa May on the extradition of Abu Qatada.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10167255/Sketch-A-day-of-worship-for-the-almighty-Theresa.html

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 7:45 pm

    @ Passerby (16h22) :

    “Theresa May vows to change human rights law
    ‘Wholesale changes’

    Trouble is she has been in contraventions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights up until now, from now she can make legal the illegal and get on with contravening the UDHR legally!”
    ______________

    I really do wish that people would not simply write the first thing that comes into their heads but just think (and if necessary research)for a few minutes before spouting off.

    Firstly, the Universal Declaration is just that – a declaration. It is not “law” and has no legal force, and consequently contains no provisions for the implementation and enforcement of its 29-odd articles. It is – and this is not meant as a criticism – utopian in nature and there is no state on earth which has not been, since its adoption and up to the present, in “violation” of several (and probably in some cases, most) of its articles. Take, for example, its articles on the “right to education” or (my own words) a “decent standard of living”.

    There is therefore no question of the UK govt seeking to make “legal” the “illegal” or contravening the UDHR “legally”.

    Secondly, what I imagine Passerby is thinking of is what is commonly known as the European Convention on Human Rights and/or the UK’s Human Rights Act (2000).

    The former (ECHR)is a completely different animal from the UDHR : it lays down a (more limited, as compared to the UDHR) numbers of rights and sets out mechanisms and procedures (notably the European Court of Human Rights) for adjudication and enforcement of those rights within the Contracting Parties (ie, the States Party). Furthermore, its judgements have the force of law and are binding on the States Party involved in a case. The latter (HRA) is, essentially, the full incorporation of the ECHR into UK law, inter alia, that since 2000 actions under the European Convention (eg, an individual who feels that his rights under, say, Article 7 have been breached) can be brought directly in the UK courts and UCHR law is directly applicable in the UK; applicants need no longer go to Strasbourg to have their suits heard and adjudicated (however, they can still do so once all possible remedies in the UK courts have been exhausted).

    This is what should be referred to by commenters when they talk about breaches in “human rights law”.

    Has the UK been found to have violated THIS human rights law? Certainly, and on several occasions. As have many if not all of the States Party. And there have been no instances, to my knowledge at least, of States Party not bowing to the judgements of the ECtHR.

    So : when the govt talks about its intention to substantially change “human rights law” it is referring to either the ECHR or to the UK’s HRA. Given that getting changes agreed to the former would take years if not decades (if feasible at all) and given that the UK has no intention of “withdrawing” from that Convention (this would be politically unfeasible) and that so-called reservations on the ECHR can only be entered on signature or ratification but not subsequently, I should imagine that it is changes to the UK’s own Human Rights Act are what is being considered. And we shall not know what these envisaged changes might be until they have been proposed.

    Conclusion : please refer to what should be referred to (ie, more precision, please) and let’s have less hysteria and fewer wild accusations while awaiting concrete proposals.

  59. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 7:56 pm

    Posted at 19h05 :

    “Sketch: A day of worship for the almighty Theresa
    Michael Deacon watches MPs takes turns to congratulate Theresa May on the extradition of Abu Qatada.”
    _________

    Well, if I were a vulgarian, I should say “the girl done good”, but since I am anything but, I shall simply add my congratulations to those of the MPs for the achievement (scrupulously following due process) of something which had eluded God knows how many Home Secretaries before her (Home Secretaries with physical balls, by the way).

    AFTERTHOUGHT – is there anyone here who feels strongly that Mr Qatada should NOT have been deported? Happy to discuss.

  60. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    8 Jul, 2013 - 8:00 pm

    “For the record, disabled children ought to be cherished as much as the able bodied children,..”
    _________

    If not more so, in my opinion, for their need is even greater.

  61. Tweet

    “A marriage made in hell: #Monsanto buys #Blackwater – Really toxic mercenaries”

    http://politicalblindspot.com/yes-monsanto-actually-did-buy-the-blackwater-mercenary-group/

  62. The International Bill of Human rights or Universal Declaration of Human Rights, ought to be printed on the back of every bag of sugar, and cereal boxes. For without any such a safeguard, the total bastards and psychopaths in charge will pay lip service to human rights, whilst contravening every moral, and legal imperatives concerning our inalienable rights as a human being.

    The following is a distressing account of such an abuse. It must be noted that the tradition of fasting and rejecting food in the face of injustice, is to be found in more than one culture. Those of Irish descent perhaps would be more familiar with this concept.

    The tyranny of the concentration camp in Gitmo

  63. “AFTERTHOUGHT – is there anyone here who feels strongly that Mr Qatada should NOT have been deported? Happy to discuss.”

    Must be me then again H. It is a case I’ve been following, for although the media portrayed and portray him as a villain, I have heard no substantive evidence from MSM.

    Here are two parallel cases I wrote about in May.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/05/03/is-hatred-of-islam-the-uk-home-secretarys-religion/

    I also raised a FOI request regarding questions that have been bothering me in the Abu Qatada case, not least of which is the suggestion that he worked for the UK secret services.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/abu_qatadas_crime_or_crimes#incoming-400219

  64. the best analysis yet:

    8 July – Thierry Meyssan: Does Morsi’s fate foreshadow that of the Muslim
    Brotherhood?
    CAPTION: Of 84 million Egyptians, 33 million took to the streets to celebrate the military coup
    So when it became clear that its allies were overwhelmed by the street, Washington ordered them to give way to the prefabricated opposition…
    Ultimately, what characterizes the “Arab Spring” (Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria) is not instability, or culture, but the solution envisaged by the imperialist powers: the rise to power of the Muslim Brotherhood.
    This secret, allegedly anti-imperialist organization has always been politically controlled by London. It was represented in Hillary Clinton’s cabinet through Huma Abedin (wife of Anthony Weiner, former pro-Zionist U.S. Representative), whose mother Saleha Abedin leads the global women’s branch
    of the Brotherhood. Qatar has bankrolled operations for more than $15 billion per year (!) in addition to the media coverage of the Brotherhood, who in late 2005 was given charge of the Al-Jazeera channel. Finally, Turkey has provided policy expertise with communication consultants…
    http://www.voltairenet.org/article179282.html

  65. Chris Jones

    9 Jul, 2013 - 3:15 am

    @Fred “When I hear someone is being called a self loathing Jew for opposing Zionism I speak out and when I hear someone being called a self loathing Scot for opposing Nationalism I do the same. It is wrong, no amount of Nationalist propaganda or attempts to demonise the victim can make it right.

    Your point doesn’t make any sense. What your on about is intolerance and lack of respect for freedom of opinion and speech – I’ve no idea why you decide that its the same thing as nationalism or people who want the best for their country. You do realise that all of this world is currently made up of various countries, including the current ‘british state’, which means that the whole world is therefore nationalist? How have you worked out which country is good nationalist versus bad nationalist countries? Have you got a natiometer?

  66. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:39 am

    Israeli doctors to advise US on Guantanamo hunger strikers

    Israeli doctors have been invited to the US to share their experiences of handling hunger-striking Palestinian prisoners as Washington comes under fire for its force-feeding of Guantanamo Bay detainees who refuse to eat.

    Officials from the Israeli Medical Association have been invited to the U.S. to present policy makers there with their methods of handling hunger strikers, as the U.S. administration comes under fire for its own practice of force-feeding of Guantanamo Bay detention camp prisoners who refuse to eat.

    /..

    http://www.france24.com/en/20130708-israeli-doctors-advise-us-guantanamo-hunger-strikes

    Note the use of the word ‘handling’.

    They have had a lot of practice.

    ~~~~

    In 2009 over 700 doctors attempted to get an Israeli doctor Yoram Blachar removed as president of the World Medical Association.

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/croakey/2009/06/29/israeli-president-of-the-world-medical-association-comes-under-fire/

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/21/doctors-israeli-torture-yoram-blachar-resign

  67. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:48 am

    So funny.

    The Lloyds building, one of the bastions of the city boys in our capitalist system, is acquired by the Chinese.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23236928#

    A snip @ £260m.

  68. “How have you worked out which country is good nationalist versus bad nationalist countries? Have you got a natiometer?”

    There are no good and bad countries, there are only good and bad people.

    Haven’t you seen me criticising the British government here? Haven’t you seen me criticising Cameron, Haigh, Clegg and Blair? Haven’t you seen me criticising the Nationalist organisations like the BNP, EDL and Zionists everywhere? Haven’t you seen me criticising the American government for persecuting people like Bradley Manning because they are not Nationalists, because they put their humanity before their country.

    You can tell the bad people, they are the ones who make death threats against people who say what they don’t want to hear.

  69. “Fred however is no innocent abroad: emerging from some cave, with matted locks and his once fine garb reduced to rags, clutching tightly a sheaf of well-thumbed last season’s newsprint, some slightly soiled with indeterminate stains of organic origin, and has clipped out this very piece with his bare gnashers, and though now shaped like a pie crust, this article had fired a laggard neuron or two in his noggin -he thinks he scents something, his hobby horse is set a-rockin, knees-trembling, this new scent it mixes with the odours emanating from his full library of learned chip wrappers as they fly in all directions. It’s the holey-grail of a discarded smear campaign -ripe for reanimation, ‘McEureka’ he cries.”

    There is your evidence of Nationalist bullying and intimidation.

    There is my evidence of an utterly humourless Englishman. They do exist, though we sometimes deny it.

    *stirs vigorously*

  70. @Suhayl: “The death squads .. were those in ‘Latin’ America, run by the CIA..”
    Nonsense, this is Communist propaganda. The death squads were responsible for their own misdeeds. The CIA tied to *discourage* the use of torture in Chile.

    “To conflate these people with say, Osama Bin Laden is preposterous and inhuman.”
    By no means. Islamist and Communist regimes are both unworthy of humans and worthy of destruction.

    If the Bay of Pigs invasion had succeeded, Cuba would have been a free democracy. Too bad it still groans under an antiquated and unworkable regime. But Cuba has one good feature: state medical care, and even more impressive, the system of free medical training for doctors from Africa, which must have raised Cuba’s moral ‘capital’ widely. This is one influence which Cuba could beneficially exert on America.

  71. abbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!) 8 Jul, 2013 – 8:00 pm

    Wake up H. I have engaged you in debate.

  72. You can tell the bad people, they are the ones who make death threats against people who say what they don’t want to hear.

    Seriously, though, if you’re getting death threats, tell the police. The SNP is committed to nonviolence, and this used at any rate to be inscribed on the membership cards*. You may be enduring the attentions of a splinter group – they’re mostly laughable – or, as I have suggested before, of nonpartisan Scots who just don’t like you. But death threats are illegal.

    * The SNP rightly feared the Establishment’s conflating it with Irish nationalists such as the IRA

  73. Sorry Habbabkuk. Must have been a silent H. So yes let’s hear some reasoned debate about why Abu Qatada should not be home with his family in London. Do you know something I’ve been trying to find out, like why the media keep smearing him? Or was he a British government agent who left the service? I want to know why he is being forced abroad when there are so many white shits who are passed over by the government and allowed to stay.

  74. Thanks, Doug, for the Blair link.
    TB was already a busted flush as far as the Pals are concerned. His bias in favour of the money wonderful and not at all apartheid democratic beacon was noted some time ago. This will not have surprised them at all.

    There’s an inherent contradiction in what Blair claims to be doing here. On the one hand, he’s gung-ho for the economic development of the West Bank and maybe even Gaza to take place, ably assisted by venture capitalists -

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/83a0b46c-c629-11e2-99d1-00144feab7de.html#axzz2YX8of5xr

    On the other, he is visibly uninterested in redressing any of the injustices to which Palestinians have been subjected for the last 60 years. (Loadsamoney makes everything all right, y’know. It made it all right for me -TB)

    And also on that other hand, the vast investment dangled in front of the Palestinians takes no account of the actuality; the blockade of Gaza, and restrictions on West Bank movement and trade outside Israel. If Palestinian trade and production are strangled (as they are), what return on investment will be possible? Tony dreams that all difficulties will melt away in the presence of money, but they won’t, because, as is patently obvious to anyone else, the Israelis aren’t in the least interested in Palestinian prosperity – quite the reverse.

  75. John – H keeps strange hours. There may be two of it. I don’t feed it these days.

  76. “You can tell the bad people, they are the ones who make death threats against people who say what they don’t want to hear.”

    And the hypocrites who try to condone it.

  77. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 10:08 am

    B.Liar is speaking on Murnaghan/Sky News at the moment. Yet another platform is given to the wear criminal.

  78. Does seem a lot like a counter revolution beginning with a judge who was originally appointed by Mubarak and who lifted the ban on members of his dictatorship and NDP party taking part in elections. Add to that him re-appointing the Chief Prosecutor sacked by Morsi for acquitting all of Mubarak’s security officials of charges or ordering protesters killed.

    Morsi when backed into a corner by the refusal of the opposition to negotiate unless he agreed to all their demands (including his own resignation) first did began to ally with some dangerously extreme Islamists like the group that carried out the Luxor massacre, but making the military and Mubarak’s former appointees the kingmakers by letting them divide and conquer everyone else doesn’t seem wise either.

    My blog post on this with lots of links and more details below
    http://inplaceoffear.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/power-sharing-among-all-parties-is.html

  79. And the hypocrites who try to condone it.

    You talkin’ to me, mate?

    What part of “tell the police” and “it’s illegal”, don’t you quite understand? Or is it “condone” that’s giving you trouble?

    Even your being a monumental pain in the arse doesn’t justify the issuance of death threats, Fred. You are quite entitled to object to them, to the full extent the law permits, nay, encourages. But they are not, repeat not, the policy of the vast majority of Scots nationalists, and, in particular, are not condoned by the SNP.

    So stop smearing, eh?

  80. …the wear criminal.

    Is that a reference to his childhood in Durham, Mary? Or to his abominable dress sense? Either way, good one.

  81. “What part of “tell the police” and “it’s illegal”, don’t you quite understand? Or is it “condone” that’s giving you trouble?”

    Which part of the link Mary posted didn’t you understand?

    Or did you not bother to find out what this discussion was about?

  82. Komodo, at 9.19 a.m. Me neither normally, in fact the Abu Qatada case is something I think everybody should be aware of, and I know on this blog most know that this is just another of Theresa May and David Cameron’s miscarriages of justice, so if that generates a debate it’s job done.

    Two of it? God forbid. However I’ve been missing the witty retorts of Sophie. We could do with others from that stable. So I don’t see it so much as me feeding the T but the T giving me feed lines.

  83. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:18 am

    Yes my typos can be quite apt. He was wearing a very smart suit….

    Remember his tie up to Arnault/Louis Vuitton http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242106/Critics-accuse-Tony-Blair-profiting-office-Louis-Vuitton-billionaire-friend-offers-high-paying-job.htm

    ….and a silk shirt and looked as if he had been scrubbed and buffed up. I seem to remember that they closed the Kensington High Street store so that he could help himself to whatever he chose.

    He was as loquacious as ever this morning. There is an extract of him speaking on Murnaghan. Can’t see a link. It is entitled
    Video: Tony Blair: ‘Democracy is not just a way of voting it’s a way of thinking’ on http://news.sky.com/world

    ~~~

    There are problems at Air Traffic Control HQ at Swanwick. Flights in the South of England are being affected.

  84. Which part of the link Mary posted didn’t you understand?

    Which one? Of very many.

    … what this discussion was about?

    …is ambiguous to say the least. Granted.

  85. “Which one? Of very many.”

    So you jump in with your vicious ad hominem attacks branding people utterly humourless Englishmen and you haven’t got a clue what we’re talking about then.

  86. So you jump in with your vicious ad hominem attacks branding people utterly humourless Englishmen

    Woohoo. I rest my case, m’Lud.

    Sometimes I understand why trolls find this enjoyable…

  87. …and dare I even mention, er, vicious ad-hominem what-you-said about the SNP’s leader being a “beached whale”?

    lol

  88. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 1:03 pm

    If Blair approves of Miliband’s actions, as he did this morning on Sky, then you know Miliband is wrong.
    Miliband Vows To Reform Labour’s Union Ties
    http://news.sky.com/story/1113175/miliband-vows-to-reform-labours-union-ties

    Billy Hayes of the CWU speaks out.
    Ed Miliband’s reform plans rejected as ‘dog whistle’ politics by union leader
    Proposed changes in link between the Labour party and unions condemned by CWU boss as attack on ordinary people
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/09/ed-miliband-reform-labour-union-link

    Q. Where is the Labour funding coming from? The next thing we will be hearing of demands for state funding of elections.

    Steve Bell’s take on it yesterday.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2013/jul/08/len-mccluskey-davidcameron

  89. “…and dare I even mention, er, vicious ad-hominem what-you-said about the SNP’s leader being a “beached whale”?”

    So you don’t understand what ad hominem means either then.

  90. Kempe 7 Jul, 2013 – 4:15 pm

    I missed your link to the Guardian article. Yes it did report on the shooting by the FBI but probably after a lot of pressure from readers who wondered why the story was available on RT (30 May) and was not published till 3 June. What you have to ask yourself is would the Guardian have published this story without Russia Today. It is why these alternative news outlets are so important.

  91. “If the Bay of Pigs invasion had succeeded, Cuba would have been a free democracy.” Abe Rene.

    And what on earth makes you imagine that? Similar regimes were in power, or took power (via the USA’s help) all over ‘Latin’ America during this period and in just about case, they smashed anything resembling “free democracy” and turned the continent into an ocean of blood.

    I agree with you, though, about the health, etc. stats.

  92. It is OK, he is our son of a bitch

    “Our intent is take these soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and intelligence officers to go from tactical-level operations and decision-makers to direct leadership roles,” said Bill Waddell, director of the command and control group and the cyberspace operations. “They have gotten promoted for being decisive and getting things done. Now they come here, and they have to get ready for roles where some of them will be general officers, admirals or on the staff of a senior leader.”

    Or even leaders all by themselves and their buddies with guns and tanks.

  93. “Yes it did report on the shooting by the FBI but probably after a lot of pressure from readers who wondered why the story was available on RT (30 May) and was not published till 3 June. What you have to ask yourself is would the Guardian have published this story without Russia Today.”

    Even the Fail covered the story when it first broke on the 22nd.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329001/Ibragim-Todashev-FBI-agent-fatally-shoots-suspect-Orlando-knew-Boston-Marathon-bombing-suspect-Tamerlan-Tsarnaev.html

    Earliest Gruniad story is dated the 30th May also:-

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/30/father-chechen-man-killed-fbi-inquiry

  94. BrianFujisan

    9 Jul, 2013 - 5:55 pm

    Bliar Being forced down our Throats again

    Great piece fron John Hilly

    What’s more contemptible: Tony Blair’s latest views in the Observer/Guardian on support for the military coup in Egypt, or the Observer/Guardian giving him such uncritical space to air them?

    A small sample of Blair’s shameless chutzpah:
    “So what should the west do? Egypt is the latest reminder that the region is in turmoil and won’t leave us alone, however we may wish it would.” (Emphasis added.)…..

    http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/observerguardian-once-more-with-feeling.html

    Mod/Jon

    Sorry about rantings at daft o ,clock Monday morning…one too many, Numpty Me

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 5:57 pm

    @ John Goss (and Komodo, at the end):

    “abbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!) 8 Jul, 2013 – 8:00 pm

    Wake up H. I have engaged you in debate.”
    ___________

    Have you?

    I have found two posts from you on the subject. The first refers to two “parallel cases” (by linking) and also links to a FOI request through which you pose a number of questions about Abu Qatada; the second repeats a couple of the questions in your FOI request and adds a reference to “white shits” who have not been deported.

    Now you may not agree with me, but I don’t think that is an appropriate start to a possible debate. I asked the question “does anyone here think that Qatada should NOT have been deported?”. You have identified yourself as one such (I think we can assume this from the spirit if not letter of your posts) and should now go on to give reasons and arguments for why you hold that opinion. I would then carry on by either agreeing, refuting or disputing. My point is that your two posts neither respect the proper structure of a “debate”, nor does their substance constitute the first element I mentioned above (ie, the “why I hold this or that opinion”).

    Whether or not this post is the end of the matter, I would though like to thank you for responding (and in a civil manner). Both are quite rare occurences on this blog, not only when I’m involved but also when on occasion two or more of the Excellences fall out over something (cf the above ongoing spat between Komodo and Fred :) )

    Which brings me to my thought on Komodo’s post, which was :

    “John – H keeps strange hours. There may be two of it. I don’t feed it these days.”

    It’s surely an unworthy thought, but…..when you don’t have a valid answer or explanation in response to something someone else has said, isn’t it a rather convenient way out just to say “I don’t discuss with Trolls”? A bit like a dog cocking his leg at the lamppost : you’ve left your little marker but you haven’t engaged further.

  96. Abu Qatada is more dangerous than any of the more flamboyant mullahs. Just as we do not allow White Supremacists from the USA to alight upon these shores, so too ought we to bar other dangerous supremacist leaders. Personally, I’ll be glad to see the back of him. I do not think anyone should be tortured. If that’s a concern, which it is, then as well as justifiably criticisng the UK Government (which of course is in cahoots with the Islamists in Syria/Libya, etc. and which uses the Qatada case as it’s PR vehicle in the opposite direction) for its rank hypocrisy, maybe we should be looking also at Jordan and why the regime there (and why all regimes in those countries) do what they do to their own people.

  97. Habbabkuk, I thought you had some intelligence. If you read the article you will see that Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem, and without any apparent criminal record in this country is a is a middle-eastern Muslim that the Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family. On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media. I am posting the link again so that you can read it and make your own judgement.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/05/03/is-hatred-of-islam-the-uk-home-secretarys-religion/

  98. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 6:56 pm

    Sub-contractors working on the gas supply in Birdcage Walk have cut through a water main which, apart from causing a flood, has deprived Downing Street, parts of Whitehall, the House of Lords and Wellington Barracks of their water supply. What a shame. Agent Cameron and the others are said to be not best pleased. That will teach them a lesson about privatising public services.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23248549

    Tomorrow the £3bn privatisation of the Royal Mail kicks off. There will be a donation of shares (a bribe) to the staff. It will be the end of universal delivery to all parts of the UK for the same price and we will see hundreds of delivery vans running around all working for different companies.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/royal-mail/10167373/Royal-Mail-WILL-be-sold-off-in-biggest-state-privatisation-for-two-decades.html

  99. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:02 pm

    Victoria Britain’s opinion of Abu Qatada is different to the general view.

    I know Abu Qatada – he’s no terrorist
    Security services and politicians turned this man into an Islamic counter-terrorism myth. If only they’d talked to him instead

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/07/abu-qatada-no-terrorist

    I haven’t looked at the 1140 comments but can guess at some of the content.

  100. Abu Qatada allegedly is a very clever ideologue and what’s worse, a clever recruiter of youth who, it is reported, speaks one way in public, in English (allegedly to fool people) and another, when allegedly indocrinating gullible youths with his poisonous doctrine. He allegedly has links with training camps abroad. He also is an expert in theology – which the other, more theatrical, mullahs of hate were not. As I said, there must be no compromising of human rights, no matter how heinous the individual concerned. But there are individuals far more deserving of your good conscience, John, than Abu Qatada. It is people like him – his pals, actually – who are commiting much of the killing in Syria. It is a pity the issue has become a political football of the Far Right in this country. It’s bigger than that.

  101. “If only they’d talked to him instead…” Flaming June.

    Yeah, he’ll have told Ms Brittain exactly what she wanted to hear. As I said, he’s very clever. He knows how to milk liberals.

  102. “… his moral standards could have been useful in engaging Muslim youth and healing the wounds in our divided society.” [from the Brittain article]

    No, no, no! This man is a Far Right supremacist.

    “The Guardian Newspaper reported that in 1995 Abu Qatada issued a fatwa justifying the killing of Muslims who renounce their faith, and of their families.” [from Wikipedia]

    That’s just one example. This is the kind of man he is. So yes, let’s be absolute in our stand against evidence-from-torture, etc., but let’s not kid ourselves that this is a good man. In fact, our knowledge that he is not a good man and our steadfastness against torture actually strengthens our position.

  103. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:24 pm

    Murdoch won’t have Wendi Deng to save him next time.

    Rupert Murdoch Recalled By Commons Committee
    The media mogul is asked to appear before MPs after a tape recording emerged of a meeting with journalists at his newspapers.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1113515/rupert-murdoch-recalled-by-commons-committee

  104. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:41 pm

    @ Suhayl

    Thank you for those interesting posts on Abu Qatada. They are all the more valuable as the Eminences will not be able to shout “fascist” or “troll” or “hasbara agent” at YOU (this will of course deprive them of seven-eights of their ‘argument’)

    I would actually have used a couple of your points for my “debate” with John Goss – once he would have started to debate by setting out his reasons for maintaining that Abu Qatada should NOT have been deported (if you read his latest, you’ll have seen that he hasn’t actually done so, preferring instead to introduce Sean Patrick Breach into the discussion).

  105. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:46 pm

    From Flaming June re Abu Qatada:

    “If only they’d talked to him instead”
    _________

    Well, according to some of your fellow-Eminences, they did – because they suggest that he was an MI6 asset.

    No, seriously, this is a desperate argument. Oh, if only we’d have talked to x, y, z (fill in the names of some pretty unpleasant figures here yourselves), they wouldn’t have been so horrible!

  106. And while I’m at it, calling another Fundo Preacher, Qaradawi, “progressive” is the height of naivete (to be kind to Ken Livingstone et al). Qaradawi and his ilk are NOT progressive. He’s Muslim Brotherhood – and we just saw what they were trying to do to Egyptians and we see what their pals are doing right now in Libya and Syria (with the help of MI6, the CIA, the Saudis/UAE and the French). That is what happens when these people get power. They are not, could never be, should never be, friends of the Left. We saw what their theocratic Shia equivalents in Iran did to the Left when they hijacked the Revolution of 1979 – mass murder. Bani Sadr had to flee Iran disguised as a woman, on the back of a donkey.

    It is necessary to be against imperialism and in this regard, it is necessary clearly to see that one of the key tools of imperialism in the ‘Middle East’ is religious fundamentalism.

  107. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 7:58 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “Habbabkuk, I thought you had some intelligence. If you read the article you will see that Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem, and without any apparent criminal record in this country is a is a middle-eastern Muslim that the Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family. On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media.”
    ___________

    I’m assuming that you read my post before posting the above; you’ll recall that I suggested that you start off the debate by saying why you maintain that Abu Qatada should NOT have been deported.

    Does your post (reproduced above) constitute that statement of your reasons?

    If so, I note that your reasons for opposing the deportation of Abu Qatada appear to be :

    - that he is a family man born in Bethlehem
    - that he has no apparent criminal record in the UK
    - that various UK politicians have tried to split him from his family
    - that he is in complete contrast to Sean Patrick Breach, who has however not been deported.

    So before we go any further, please confirm that you have given me the reasons why you think that Abu Qatada should not have been deported and that those reasons are the ones eproduced above.

    Thank you.

  108. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 8:06 pm

    [Mod/Jon: excessive focussing on one particular poster, will continue to remove these]

  109. First of all Habbabkuk, it was you who was “happy to discuss” why Abu Qatada should, or should not, have been deported to the torturous state of Jordan. Theresa May, and other home secretaries from the time of Blair and Bush’s ‘war on Islam’ as I prefer to call it, has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial. That is not what we used to do in this country. That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith.

    Suhayl you might be right, and I respect your opinion, but the Guardian timeline is not sourced. There are great writers on the Guardian, even more so since Glenn Greenwald joined. But those of us who have followed it over the years knows that the spooks have an input too. The bit about the Germans finding “recordings of some of his radical sermons in a home used by some of the September 11 attackers” in April 2002 is almost certainly disinformation of the nature of the videotapes of Osama Bin Laden found in caves.

  110. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    It’s so good to have one’s comments copied out and repeated. Free double exposure.

  111. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:29 pm

    “It’s so good to have one’s comments copied out and repeated. Free double exposure.”
    ______________

    Absolutely, and always happy to be of service to a valuable and valued contributor.

    There! I’ve done it again!

  112. Flaming June

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:39 pm

    Man’s inhumanity to man.

    In photos: Palestinian workers’ everyday nightmare at Israeli checkpoints
    Daniel Tepper

    Qalqiliya 9 July 2013

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/photos-palestinian-workers-everyday-nightmare-israeli-checkpoints/12597

  113. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “First of all Habbabkuk, it was you who was “happy to discuss” why Abu Qatada should, or should not, have been deported to the torturous state of Jordan. Theresa May, and other home secretaries from the time of Blair and Bush’s ‘war on Islam’ as I prefer to call it, has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial. That is not what we used to do in this country. That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith.”
    ______________

    Let’s be clear : I originally asked whether there was anyone on this blog who thought that Abu Qatada should NOT be deported, and added that I should be happy to discuss.

    Yo indicated that you were such a person but, apart from so indicating, you have not given me your reasons. Once I have them, I shall be able to answer them.

    You did post some stuff but have not yet responded to my request to tell me whether that stuff constitutes your reasons for opposing Abu Qatada’s deportation and whether I have captured what you said accurately.

    You have now posted yet more stuff, bringing in another couple of people in addition to the South African murderer you mentioned previously and recalling for the third time that you sent off a Freedom of Information request. But still no exposition of the reasons for which you are opposed to the deportation of Abu Qatada.

    I’m seriously beginning to doubt your wish to discuss this question. If you are unwilling – or perhaps unable – to set out the reasons for your opinion, please just say so and we can drop the whole thing.

  114. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    @ John Goss

    And I have of course not failed to notice that you are doing your best to rubbish Suhayl’s sources, Suhayl having cast some doubt on the angelic and anti-terrorist disposition of the now departed Mr Qatada.

    I think they must have taught you that trick at Party school along with the dialectical materialism, no?

  115. Fred, I’m in mod-mode at the moment, so I won’t join in. But, in the interests of stimulating debate: either side of the independence campaign may have one or two unpleasant individuals willing to make death threats. However, neither side is going to publicly support that sort of thing, and 99% of unionists and 99% of independence supporters will not use this tactic.

    With that in mind, it might be best not to rest your argument on “nationalists are violent” – in the main, this is a peaceful campaign, both ways. Can we focus instead on the political and economic effects (good or bad) of separation?

  116. Thanks, John. Yes, that was just one example, as I said. Abu Qatada has been roundly criticised, his speeches and works negatively critiqued, by Islamic religious scholars (not just those in the UK, not just those of the obvious bodies) across the (sane) board whom he, in turn, has disparaged, and many others, not just by the spooks or elements of the Left or Right or whatever.

    He also allegedly had systemic links with the Algerian GIS, an organisation that massacred civilians in the thousands (even other Islamist who were not sufficiently psychopathic) as, of course, did the Alegrian state during the civil war there of the 1990s. He’s been a key (practising and theoretician) Rightwing religious supremacist for many years.

    As I said earlier, that is not to say that he automatically forfeits all rights or that we descend to the same level by using evidence gained through torture, imprisonment wihtout charge, etc. Everyone, even the biggest murdering bastard, is entitled to due process. I wish that for example, General Pinochet had been exposed to due process as had been demanded by the Spanish judge.

  117. And I wish Anthony Blair would be exposed to due process.

  118. Habbabkuk, this article is by Moazzam Begg. If your recall Moazzam Begg was one of the 779 men ever held in Guantanamo Bay, of which 15 were children. Of that huge total of Muslims (because I know of none practising other religions) only 13 have ever been charged with a crime, and 9 men have died there. Only 1 to my knowledge has been convicted. These figures speak for themselves. They are the joint intelligence of European countries, including the UK who condemn Muslims without them having committed a crime. Anybody who thinks differently needs to stop watching MSM. How good the intelligence is from intercepting people’s communications speaks for itself. But here is Moazzam Begg’s article. You worked out roughly what my arguments were as to why Abu Qatada should not have had to go to Jordan.

    http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/4002-from-bethlehem-to-belmarsh-abu-qatada%E2%80%99s-ordeal-in-britain

  119. Bani Sadr had to flee Iran disguised as a woman, on the back of a donkey.

    He did not run away because he was a lefty. Bani Sadr was “planted” in among the leadership entourage from the word go, by the CIA. His handler was one Guy Rutherford purporting to represent Carver and Associates of Pennsylvania, US. However Guy Rutherford also was known as William Foster, and in fact was Vernon Cassin of the CIA. Cassin had been operating since mid 1950s in the mid east, and he was posted as the CIA Station Chief in Damascus, later being assigned as the Station Chief in Amman, Jordan. Cassin also had a close working relationship with Thomas Ahern the Station Chief in US Embassy in Tehran.

    However, as ever any data concerning Iran does not necessarily need to be grounded in facts, so long as it conforms to the jaundiced view so prevalent with regards to all matters concerning Iran; portraying Iran in the most negative light, it should suffice. Fact that Bani Sadar was the fifth columnist sabotaging the Iranians war efforts, directed at countering the Saddams attacks, and defending Iran during the imposed war on Iran by Saddam. Hence his ignominious departure from Iran attired in tribal women’s outfit.

  120. Well, who knows? Bani Sadr, of course denies that he was a CIA asset, saying only that they attempted to recruit him but that he rejected their overtures. Whatever, many thousands of leftists and others were murdered by the theocratic regimes in the early 1980s. My point here being that people on the Left should never, ever ally themselves with religious extermists because when they do, they usually end up dead.

    But if you agree with Abu Qatada’s ‘preaching’ and alleged actions, then what can one say?

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NCwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=Bani+Sadr,+CIA&source=bl&ots=56YKXwCXv9&sig=r0THqqDRg5nqh1z_0l5SPqMShgg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-oHcUafcKYi0hAf9mYCYAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK

  121. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 10:54 pm

    @ John Goss:

    On second thoughts, I shall take your last two posts as indicating the ‘reasons’ for which you are opposed to the deportation of Mr Qatada and go through them point by point. When reading, please keep in mlind what Suhayl has posted.
    Perhaps that will encourage you to engage in the discussion you have indicated you want.

    Firstly, let me point out two facts :

    1/. There is nothing in international law granting aliens the unconditional right of entry into the territory of a state or, if the alien is already in the territory of that state, the unconditional right to remain.

    2/. UK Home Secretaries have absolute discretion in matters of right of entry and deportation, subject only to the provisions of relevant international law (notably the ECHR and EU legislation).

    Now to your posts, taking the latest one first.

    a) “..deported to the torturous (sic) state of Jordan.”

    The basis of Mr Qatada’s suit at the ECtHR was that evidence at the retrial he would face in Jordan might have been obtained by torture and that his trial would therefore be contrary to the ECHR’s provisions on the right to a fair trial. This objection has now been met by the recently-negotiated Agreement between the UK and Jordan that any such evidence would not be used at his trial. It therefore falls.
    ________

    b) “..has imprisoned people, including Abu Qatada, people like Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan for collectively more than 14 years without charge or trial.”

    Irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion on two counts : (1) we are discussing the case of Mr Qatada and not Messrs Ahmad and Ahsan; (2) we are discussing the deportation and not what preceded it.
    ________

    c) “That is not what we used to do in this country.”

    This is not accurate : deportation powers have been used by successive Home Secretaries as far back as I can remember. Even if they had not been, this cannot be a reason as we are discussing a specific case of deportation now. If your reference is to 14 years of imprisonment, please see above under point b)

    d) “That is why I raised several FOI requests suggesting that the FCO might be illegally bigoted towards people of Muslim faith”

    The fact that you have submitted a FOI request is not a reason why Mr Qatada should not have been deported. And, by the way, if it were, you should have addressed it to the Home Department and not the FCO
    _________

    Now on to your first post.

    e) “Abu Qatada, a family man, born in Bethlehem”

    Irrelevant for the purpose of arguing that he should not be deported (by the way, he is a Jordanian citizen – and is a fugitive from Jordanian justice, wanted for retrial in Jordan.

    f) “…Home Secretary and David Cameron have, together with former prime ministers, tried to split up from his family.”

    Untrue (and therefore invalid as a reason). Mr Qatada’s suit at the ECHR, interestingly enough, was based on the claimed violation of his right to a fair trial and not to the right to have a family (or ‘enjoy a family life”). The UK govt wants hum out because he is deemed to be a threat to the security of the UK and that his poresence is not conducive to the public good. In adddition to which, he is wanted for retrial in a friendly state.
    _______

    g) “On the other hand Sean Patrick Breach a “white shit” is a serial white South African wife-beater who has an alleged criminal record in South Africa as well as here. One is a prime target for deportation – the other has not even been considered for deportation and nothing of his crimes (Kempe take note) appear in the mainstream media.”

    All irrelevant to the question of whether Mr Qatada should have been deported or not. I think you might agree that each case should be dealt with on its own merits and the absence of action in one case should not bear on another?

    ************

    Now, having re-read the above, I am forced to one of two conclusions:

    1/. Either you have set out your reasons for opposing the deportation of Mr Qatada in those two posts of yours, in which case I think that I’ve shown that those ‘reasons’ are either irrelevant or erroneous

    2/ Or your two posts have just been you sounding off and you have not so far seen fit to put the reasons for your opinion into the arena of discussion. If this is the case, I now again invite you to do so.

  122. “However, as ever any data concerning Iran does not necessarily need to be grounded in facts, so long as it conforms to the jaundiced view so prevalent with regards to all matters concerning Iran; portraying Iran in the most negative light, it should suffice.” Fedup.

    Not by me. No evidence of that whatsoever.

  123. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:00 pm

    @ Suhayl

    I expected better from you. He HAS been subject to due process, for Christ’s sake – why do you think it took years to get rid of him?

  124. Habbabkuk, I was not suggesting that Abu Qatada hadn’t been subjected to due process. I was reinforcing the importance of due process in all cases, and also of not obtaining ‘evidence’ via torture, the latter of which I think had been an issue in this case.

    Talha Ahsan, on the other hand, for example, in my view, has not had the benefit of proper due process. There may be the impression of due process in the Ahsan case, but that is not enough.

  125. “My point here being that people on the Left should never, ever ally themselves with religious extermists because when they do, they usually end up dead.” Me.

    Also of course because Right-wing religious supremacism is completely antithetical to everything the Left is supposed to satnd for. In majority-Muslim countries, for example, people on the Left are totally opposed to the religious extremists. No left-wing leader would ever dream of celebrating Al Qaradawi as “progressive” like Ken Livingstone did. And the SWP at times also at times behaves in an apologetic manner. We must get away from this ‘Third Worldism’.

  126. “I think that I’ve shown that those ‘reasons’ are either irrelevant or erroneous”

    Absolutely not. This mention of ‘irrelevant’ when all the rendered British Muslims in Guantanamo were innocent of any crime is nonsense. Did you read Moazzam Begg’s article.

    http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/opinion-editorial/item/4002-from-bethlehem-to-belmarsh-abu-qatada%E2%80%99s-ordeal-in-britain

    By the way, what do you understand by torturous? It is associated with the word torture. Look at the synonyms for meaning “a” and argue again.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torturous

    I give you facts. You give me irrelevancies.

  127. Habbabkuk, tomorrow I will give you an early-morning call by which time you might have had time to reflect on your comments. Read them through again and ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.

  128. I entirely agree, John, that terrible injustices have been committed, and continue to be perpetuated by the USA and its allies, esp. the UK.

    Talha Ahsan has spent many years in gaol without charge or trial while he fought against extradition and right now, is in Florence ‘Supermax’, USA in solitary confinment with no charges laid yet and his lawyers unable to see the ‘evidence’ against him. I mean, this is not due process! And many more. ‘Rendition’, black sites, this whole panoply of tossing out Habeas Corpus, it disgusts me and is a betrayal of everything countless millions have fought and died for over the ages.

  129. Bani Sadr, of course denies that he was a CIA asset

    Is it not naive to expect a Company man to own up, and fess up to his misdeeds?

    many thousands of leftists and others were murdered by the theocratic regimes in the early 1980s

    The leftists inferred to were in fact the MKO (a communist group with leadership aspirations) that was in cahoots with anyone who opposed the leadership structures post the revolution. MKO also helped Saddam to attack Iran, as well as helping Saddam to suppress the Kurds in Iraq, and now are no longer on the list of terrorist organisations of the US (good terrorists) and are helping the US now.

    Furthermore, it should be noted that MKO arranged for the bombing of the Prime minister’s office by one of its members who was in fact in the post of Secretary of Supreme National Security Council. During this bombing many scores of the top echelon of the leadership were assassinated. That is in addition to the constant machinations of the CIA to attack the residence of Ayatollah with mortars.

    In the book referred to Dilip Hiro fails to mention that the information about Bani Sadr and CIA were gleaned from decoding the material found in the US embassy in Tehran. Bani Sadr can deny all he wants, but the decoded data points to his treason. Hence to find the treasonous scum bag being paraded as a hero who fought the big bad Muslims is only reinforcing the caricaturists view that seemingly these days are passed as “reasoned discourse”.

    However, then to make the leap from one traitor and to latch onto another ne’er do well as Ab Qatada who has committed no crimes, as reflected in the absence of any trial, and conviction of the said ex “Most Wanted Man” in UK . That is despite the arbitrary arrest, and detention of Abu Qatada in lines with interment of the Northern Irish who were suspected of IRA membership. This can only be reflective of political persecution of those the government finds undesirable. However this is not the subject of any debate.

    Ab Qatada may preach the same hate that many Rabbis preach, and the likes of Pamela Geller et al are so vociferously engaged in inciting hatred against . To single out only this “hate preacher” who has been out of circulation for the last twelve years, spending his time either in full detention or partial detention and house arrest and finally rendering him to Jordan with assurances that he will not be tortured smack of hypocrisy.

    Then to find any kind of objection to internment practices are misconstrued as being in agreement with the “hate” that he preached is indeed a new low.

  130. No, I was not talking about the MKO, FedUp.

    Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions, Fed Up? Best to be open about it, if you do.

  131. You see demonstrated here as in most places today, it is either Right-wing imperialism or Right-wing religious supremacism, or apologetics for one or other of these positions, and nothing else is permissible.

  132. BrianFujisan

    9 Jul, 2013 - 11:40 pm

    A heart tugging wee story…Imagine we had to go through this every time we want to go to the seaside… or Ocean

    Alicia Keys Versus Palestinian Youth to the Sea

    “They headed out on Thursday, July 4th around 6:45am. I was waiting to receive them in Haifa. I got a call around7:20am stating that they were stuck at an Israeli checkpoint (permits in hand) and the soldiers were “checking the permits”. At 9:15am I call the driver and he tells me that the soldiers were refusing to let them pass and told them to go and try another checkpoint. At 9:50am they were turned away from a second checkpoint. At this point I am devastated. Not only do they have permission from Israel to come into the ’48 territories, but it’s 90 degrees outside and they had been up since 6:00am and on a coach since 6:30am. At 10:15am I hear that they have been turned away from yet another checkpoint. I called the center here in Haifa to see if they could help. By the time they got in touch with the offices that issue the permits, the children had been turned away at a fourth checkpoint. You can imagine the disappointment, many of them had lost hope. We kept pushing and the permit office finally gave us a fifth checkpoint to send them to, which they guaranteed they would pass them through with no problems. Its was 11:30am and the kids were made to get off the coach, were physically searched and had to walk 20 minutes to meet the coach on the other side of the checkpoint. As they boarded the coach again I could hear their joy through the phone as I spoke to the driver.

    “They took hundreds of pictures of each other and were telling me that it was going to be their “profile picture on Facebook”. They asked me again “Are we going to the beach now?” and I just smiled, boarded them on the coach and headed down towards the sea. Now, the only problem we had was that Israel did not permit us to allow them to swim. They state “Non Israeli Citizens” are not allowed to swim at the beaches…of course, not meaning tourists but meaning Palestinians. The organization we were working with was worried and felt that because there were more kids than we expected that we shouldn’t let them swim for safety reasons. We took them to an area where its really for walking, somewhat of a promenade where there are huge rocks between the walkway and the sea. As soon as they stepped off that bus many of them ran and jumped straight over the rocks into the sea. I must admit, I really didn’t mind. Of course I didn’t want them to hurt themselves but I can swim and it’s not deep there, so I just let them do it. Who knows when they will be allowed out to visit the sea again?! I snapped a picture of 15 year old Khalil who had jumped in with his sneakers and jeans. He was collecting water and sand. His smile….the waves crashing on him and his laughter….made me really think about all the things we take for granted

    http://www.existenceisresistance.org/archives/2818

  133. @Jon

    Independence might turn out all right, could very easily turn pear shaped.

    Nothing is known. Even if people vote for independence they will not wake up next morning`to an independent Scotland. That’s when the horse trading starts and it would probably take years. Salmond might be telling people that the assets will be shared geographically and the liabilities per capita but there is little likelihood that will be what actually happens. He won’t be in any position to dictate terms.

    It’s one big gamble, why would anyone using common sense want to take the risk?

  134. No, I was not talking about the MKO, FedUp.

    These were the lefties that were rounded up post the revolution, along with Todeh party (another communist group). Fact is left have always been prone to manipulation of the right, as the history of their successive failures across the globe bear witness.

    You see demonstrated here as in most places today, it is either Right-wing imperialism or Right-wing religious supremacism, or apologetics for one or other of these positions, and nothing else is permissible.

    The history of Bani Sadr, and portraying him as the victim of the religious zealots, and their right wing imperatives; only reinforces the caricature image of Iran, and upon getting pulled up on it. Then there follows the feet stamping.

  135. @John Goss.11 28pm

    Re Habba,

    “…ask yourself why others contributing to the blog do not want to engage with you. Life is good, but time is precious.”

    I’ve been sucked in so many times myself and I’ve been watching your attempt today with some sympathy. It’s like trying to swim in treacle.

    I swing between wanting to confront it and trying to ignore it. I’m clearly not alone. Sometimes it draws out plenty of facets worth looking at, but it’s hard work and as you say “time is precious.”

    Sophie the sock-puppet was about the nearest I got to an appropriate response. An angry kid can deal with it in a a way that just doesn’t sit right with an adult. Pity about the copy and paste cock-up.

    I like Habba’s complaint that Komodo was treating him as a dog treats a lamp-post. A good idea I think. Quick and effective.

    Here’s Baba Maal – Mariama (Thank You)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjMqLSCOBIo

    Goodnight.

  136. I’ve joined this conversation re deportation of Abu Qatada belatedly but I can say it is a convoluted mess (the conversation). Many issues mangled into a single question – should Qatada be deported?

    If someone were to separate and enumerate the salient issues, you might all be able to discuss them in a more orderly fashion. To this end, let me offer to start a list.

    1. AQ entered, applied for and was granted asylum in the UK. Should the govt be free to refuse asylum seekers on the basis of character checks despite credible risks of persecution? 

    2. Should the govt be free to reverse an earlier grant of asylum based on subsequent security and criminality risk assessments? 

    3. Where should the govt stand on granting asylum to applicants who would be otherwise ineligible for entry due to actual criminality or credible risks of criminality? 

    4. How credible should claims of possible persecution or torture be to prevent a deportation? 

    5. How is the govt to enforce guarantees of fair treatment of deportees in destination countries?

    6. AQ’s entry into the UK was technically lawful, how does this relate to the issue of refusal of entry to controversial figures such as ‘White Supremacists’ from the US? Many controversial figures are denied entry but not in relation to applications for asylum. The UK is required by law to give fair consideration to applications for asylum applications, not visitor visas.

    7. Should AQ be free to conduct himself in *any* manner that is strictly lawful while residing as a refugee? 

    8. Should credible but unproven allegations of criminality or seriously improper conduct NOT factor into his eligibility for indefinite asylum? 

    9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?

  137. Well, there were hundreds of thousands of people in the Tudeh Party. Many were executed by the mullahs. And many other Leftists and liberals (not just the Shah’s Right-wing monarchist people) were executed too.

    Fedup, I agree with you about the demonisation of Iran. But I’m not sure why exactly you are seeking to argue that Far Right religious supremacism is not antithetical to Leftist political views/activity. I think that the history of the last 3+ decades demonstrates that it is antithetical.

    Now, to repeat my very simple question: Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions?

  138. Good morning Habbabkuk. Join the discussion if you’re there. It is moving along quite nicely.

    Kibo Noh, is that an admission that you are Sophie. If so some of those comments of yours were classic and so entertaining. Thanks.

    Suhayl, Talha’s case is particularly disturbing. I have read his poetry, and prose. As writers ourselves we should stand side by side with imprisoned writers, especially those whose liberty has been taken away without just cause. It is why I set up the Facebook page which I urge all writers and other artists to join.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/371661099578187/?fref=ts

  139. Correction: Well, wrt Tudeh Party, maybe thousands, not hundreds of thousands…

  140. John, I do (stand side by side) with unjustly imprisoned writers and have written, and spoken, on Talha’s case and appeared side-by-side with his brother, Hamja, who has campaigned tirelessly.

  141. Flaming June

    10 Jul, 2013 - 7:43 am

    More cruelty and inhumanity. No evidence of the words of Jesus.

    ‘And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.’

    The Palestinians who live below the new fortresses on the hills have experienced this disgusting treatment by Israeli settlers for years and years.

    ‘Villagers in Wadi Fukin near Bethlehem were attacked by Israeli settlers from a nearby settlement, when they intentionally poured thousands of tons of sewage into the only natural water spring and the land.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FZ4COu5rRBI#at=109

  142. Flaming June

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:00 am

    Omar Mahmoud Othman (Abu Qatada al-Filistini) was born in Bethlehem in 1960. What were his childhood experiences? It is difficult to discover from the internet. Nearly all entries about him are hostile. As a young child he would have experienced chaos and upheaval and seen death and injury as Israel’s Six Day War in 1967 was played around him and his people. Then Israel took the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

    I can remember the media coverage here of General Dayan as the heroic victor.

    Some discoveries are to be made when listening to this.

    ‘As Abu Qatada leaves Britain, we talk to one of his childhood friends – plus the Jordanian former justice minister on what happens next.’ http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036kvb6/Double_Take_07_07_2013/

    4mins 50 secs in for 12 mins

  143. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:13 am

    @ John Goss

    I’ll be travelling over the next few days. This should give you time to present your arguments as to why Mr Qatada should not have been deported. Please keep them to the specific case of Mr Qatada and do not bring other cases into the discussion.

    Over and out for the moment.

  144. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:22 am

    @ Jemand (in haste, I’m afraid) :

    “9. How should the UK regard the use of their country as a safe haven for political activists? Should there be any limits?”
    _________

    The European Convention on Human Rights specifically allows States Party to impose restrictions on the political activities of aliens in their territory.

    Keep up the good work.

    You’ll have noticed that the discussion with Goss is having difficulty in getting off the ground because he will simply not put forward reasons for which Mr Qatada should not have been deported, preferring instead to talk about anti-Muslim agendas and dragging other individuals into the so-called discussion.

    This underlines something I noticed quite early on about most (but not all) of the regulars’ contributions to this blog, viz : they do not – or cannot – discuss. They will either evade, ignore or, when cornered, become abusive.

    Just pointing this out, although most of the 99% will have already noticed for themselves :)

  145. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    10 Jul, 2013 - 8:33 am

    @ Suhayl

    “Talha Ahsan, on the other hand, for example, in my view, has not had the benefit of proper due process.”
    ___________

    I do not know this case and you may well be right. But this is irrelevant to the question of whether Mr Qatada should or should not have been deported, is it not?

    One cannot say that Mr Qatada should not have been deported because someone else should not have been or was denied due process. It is simply meaningless…and evasive.

  146. Flaming June, I notice that BBC report is a lot more balanced than many of the reports portraying Abu Qatada as a hateful “Muslim cleric”. Cameron and May, and their policy of generating hatred against Muslims, are the ones who ought to go.

  147. Suhayl at 7.41 a.m. I have met Hamja too, and like you say he is a tireless campaigner. I feel so sorry for the Ahsan family. I also feel bitter towards my government for creating an atmosphere of hate that never existed at government level when I was younger. There were a few individual exceptions but they never made it to party leadership. Today the discrimination comes from the top and is poisoning the minds of the great mass of disinterested people who are content to wallow in apathy and “soap operas”.

  148. The Spiegel interview with Edward Snowden, now on his way to……………..
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edward-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006.html

    This article argues that Germany could take him in, but Germany does not want to raise the wrath of the US such move would cause, a lack of will to stand up against the snooping bullies.

    It would also reveal the extend the BND has cooperated with the NSA.
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/venezuela-says-it-would-give-snowden-asylum-a-910200.html

  149. Sounds familiar!

    Military appointed Egyptian PM tells people: prepare for cuts.

    Posted on July 10, 2013

    According to The New York Times, the appointment of Hazem el-Beblawi as Prime Minister sends ‘a signal that the military-led transitional government intends to move forward with economic reforms and restructuring including reductions in the country’s vast public subsidies’.

    el-Beblawi himself is quoted as saying that ‘We must create a clear understanding for the public that the level of subsidies in Egypt is unsustainable, and the situation is critical’, and that ‘The canceling of subsidies requires sacrifices from the public and therefore necessitates their acceptance’.

    /..

    http://interventionswatch.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/military-appointed-egyptian-pm-tells-people-prepare-for-cuts/

  150. The descent into total anarchy speeds up.

    10 July 2013 Last updated at 11:58
    Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie arrest ordered
    Breaking news

    Egypt’s prosecutor’s office has ordered the arrest of the leader of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement, Mohammed Badie, state media report.

    Mr Badie is accused of inciting the violence in Cairo on Friday in which at least 51 people were killed.

    Several leading Brotherhood figures are already in detention and warrants have been issued for hundreds more.

    It comes as the new interim president attempts to form a government after the overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi.

    /..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23256937

  151. From Jonathan Cook, ex Guardian (he got out), who now lives with his Palestinian wife in Nazareth – within the belly of the beast as we say. He knows what he is talking about of course. Israel wants the whole lot.

    Treatment of Palestinians is Apartheid by Any Other Name
    by Jonathan Cook / July 10th, 2013

    Were it not for the razor wire, giant concrete blocks, steel gates, watchtower and standard-issue surly teenage soldier, it would be impossible to tell at what point the barren uplands of Israel’s eastern Negev give way to the South Hebron Hills of the West Bank.

    The military checkpoint of Shani vaguely marks the formal demarcation between Israel and occupied Palestinian territory, but in practical terms the distinction is meaningless. On either side of the Green Line, Israel is in charge.

    In recent weeks it has been intensifying a campaign to evict Palestinian farming communities summarily from their ancestral lands to replace them with Jewish newcomers.

    Israeli human rights lawyers, tired of the international community’s formulaic criticisms, say it is time to be more forthright. They call these “ethnic cleansing” zones – intended to drive off Palestinians irrespective of the provisions of international law and whether or not the Palestinians in question hold Israeli citizenship.

    /..

    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/07/treatment-of-palestinians-is-apartheid-by-any-other-name/

  152. doug scorgie

    10 Jul, 2013 - 1:23 pm

    Flaming June
    9 Jul, 2013 – 1:03 pm

    “If Blair approves of Miliband’s actions, as he did this morning on Sky, then you know Miliband is wrong.”

    Yes, quit true.

    Perhaps we should call him Ed Miliblair.

  153. The Talha Ahsan case was raised on this thread by others, Habbabkuk, not by me (though I have raised it extensively elsewhere). So I felt I had to respond.

    Also, Talha’s case has been linked to Abu Qatada’s by the ‘trial by media’; Talha often is mentioned as part of group of “others” in the same breath as Abu Qatada and it is this that is misleading and which needs cleared-up. Also, the sympathetic coverage given to the white hackers (who actually admitted they had done what they were accused of doing) was entirely different from the negative or omitted publicity given to Talha’s case. The families of Talha Ahsan and Gary McKinnon, for example, were actually mutually supportive, but Talha never gets mentioned in the same media breath as Gary McKinnon. This is likely to be the product of both deliberate and subconscious distortion by large sections of the media. Organisations like ‘Liberty’ were very quick and keen publicly to be seen to supporting the McKinnon family but much less eager – until a very late stage – to be seen doing the same with the Ahsan family.

    So one cannot view these things in a vacuum and one might argue that to do so itself is “meaningless… and evasive”.

  154. Now, to repeat my very simple question: Do you agree with Abu Qatada’s views and alleged actions?

    This line of discourse is so familiar! he nice man on the telly: “do you believe that Tony bLiar did not knowingly mislead the parliament”? This rhetorical line of questioning seeks no answers and only is designed to reinforce the assertions and assumptions of the questionnaire.

    The fact we have not any first hand transcripts of Abu Qatada preachings,other than well managed clips aired so often in the mejdia, and so far as his actions goes, what has he done? Is only a matter for those whom knew Abu Qatada first hand and personally. Therefore, how can anyone agree with Abu Qatada’s actions, and views is not subject of the question, and instead the more direct; “do you agree with Abu Qatada?”

    But I’m not sure why exactly you are seeking to argue that Far Right religious supremacism is not antithetical to Leftist political views/activity.

    A- it is not far right.

    B- it is not supremacist.

    The socialist view is pretty well and alive in Iran. However because their brand of socialism is not the same brand as in the West somehow does not mean the Iranian politics are based on far right supremacist dogma. This fact is patently obvious through the constant demonetisation of Iran by the so called “capitalist” systems, and their covert war on Iran for the last four decades.

  155. Suhayl at 6.49 pm. I think the person who Talha Ahsan has been most linked to is Abu Hamza, another Muslim cleric, the man with the hook. Abu Qatada made an appeal from prison for the release of British hostage and peace activist Norman Kember.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/18/uksecurity.terrorism

    He has also repeatedly called for the release of prisoners and and closure of Guantanamo Bay. I am trying to get information from the Home Office as to what his alleged crimes are.

    Doug Scorgie at 1.23 pm. I think Miliblair is a very good name. Long before he attacked the union that paid for his passage to parliament (would you call it biting the hand that feeds you?) he had revealed his true colours to me. As a friend of Israel he forced Paul Flynn to apologise over questions Flynn raised regarding meetings between Werritty, Gould, et al (including Bro David) but the thing that showed me his true colours was after the death of Abdelbaset al Megrahi when Cameron said there would be no public inquiry over Lockerbie. Miliband agreed. They all sing from the same song-book.

  156. “[Mod/Jon: excessive focussing on one particular poster, will continue to remove these]”

    On the scales of balance should one not also place the excessive volume and randomness of one particular poster. Being bombarded left, right and centre, its only a normal human sensibility to be irritated to say the least. Hardly the spirit of the suggestion of choosing a topic and inviting discussion which might lead to some enlightenment.

  157. John,, you’re correct, it was Abu Hamza. I guess my point was that one cannot simply view these cases exclusively through a legal prism. They are political cases on every level.

    Fed Up, that’s true about Iran. There have been such elements since 1979.

  158. Sadly, though, FedUp, it’s not been true of every other regime/configuration where Islamism has featured.

  159. Like most of these florid Islamist UK-based mullahs, was Abu Qatada a UK security service asset? This would be no surprise, given the history.

    http://www.nafeezahmed.com/2012/11/abu-qatada-asset-we-cant-get-rid-of.html

  160. Sadly, though, FedUp, it’s not been true of every other regime/configuration where Islamism has featured.

    True! The saddest part is everyday many innocent people are subject to the most terrible abuses of their inalienable/god given human rights. The roots of this corruption is to be found in the leadership arrangements that are normally based on the political imperatives of the the sponsors of the charge hands who are to be put in charge of these benighted masses.

    Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, ….. the nationals of these countries have been systematically denuded from their rights, and their dignity to keep the oil flowing, keep the Western arms factories rolling out death machinery, and the banksters in the money.

    The Islam-ism label so much bandied around is designed to destroy one of the very few avenues available to these masses to rid themselves form the tyranny of their ruling elite. The simple fact is, in almost all of these nations they have no longer any kind of organic opposition within their civil constructs. The oppostion has been systematically destroyed.

    As we debate, the Egyptian Generals are hunting down the Muslim Brotherhood members and leaders, in line with other regimes in the area. Further, the extensive internal surveillance and oppression that is so extensively rooted in the governance of these countries. This makes it improbable for the trapped masses to organise in any fashion. The only mechanics of mass gatherings or mass actions are to be found in mosques and religious institutions. Hence the onslaught on all things “Islam-ist”. This is to hedge the longevity of the oil flow, in return for weapons and constructs of oppression, and most important of of all “interest payments/rent payments”.

  161. @John Goss. 7 38am

    “… is that an admission that you are Sophie.”

    Yes. She turned up by accident but then took on a life of her own until I carelessly copied and pasted Kibo’s previous posting and outed her.

    I’m glad she entertained you.

  162. Kibo Noh, me too, glad she entertained me. Are you a playwright? I think you have a gift.

  163. Suhayl, at 11.13. It would not surprise me. I’ve asked the question in my FOI request whether Abu Qatada was ever an asset but can pretty well guess the answer.

  164. Have to Agree With John..Sophie was Brilliant…A child Prodigy for sure, Thank you Kibo Noh.

  165. @John Goss. 12 07am

    Thanks. Not everyone shared your opinions about her posts.

    “Are you a playwright?”

    No. Not much of a writer at all. But having experienced Sophia’s constant nagging at me to give her a voice I now have some understanding of how it must be for those with the gift.

    She brought back to me such a vivid sense of the frequent bafflement and rage I felt around that age, at the antics of the grown-ups who lorded so pompously over my world.

    The character that possessed me can maybe be explained by my life-long enjoyment of Tom Sharpe and many a happy evening spent reading Terry Pratchet’s wonderful books aloud to my kids.

  166. @Brian. 12 36am

    Thanks.

    Maybe I’ll find a way to resurrect her without breaking blog etiquette.

  167. Kibo Noh. You should bring her back. She keeps her wayward (and currently travelling) father in check.

    Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.

  168. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 9:10 am

    Don’t mention the word ‘coup’ contd

    ‘US-Egypt fighter jet deal ‘on track’
    The US is going ahead with plans to deliver four F-16 fighter jets to Egypt despite the political unrest in the country,senior American officials say.

    It comes as Washington is continuing to evaluate last week’s overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi by the army.

    US massive military aid to Cairo would have to be cut by law if the removal of the Islamist leader is determined by Washington to have been a coup.’

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23265632

    [Mod: removed an addendum here that commented on another poster - please stick to politics]

  169. Sorry Pratchett and Sharpe are too modern for us oldies.

    Speaking as a living fossil, I object. No-one is ever too old for Pratchett, and if anything Sharpe is unsuitable for the young. Start with “Small Gods” by the one and “Riotous Assembly” by the other. I defy you not to continue.

  170. I can never forgive Kibo Noh for breaking this old dragon’s sentimental heart. When I learned that Sophie, to whom when she was old enough, I would gladly have plighted my reptilian troth*, was naught but a figment of the imagination, a cluster of pixels fraudulently expressed in cyberspace, a marionette suggested by the outlines of a Footeze ™ Gentleman’s Stocking (treated with Cheese-sorb ™), I wept uncontrollably for hours and could only console myself by eating 1 pig, half a stray dog and several of my neighbour’s children.

    For shame.

    *not in the same place as mammalian troth, and nicer to look at.

  171. Had to visit an American website to discover what the NuLabour Blairite FoIs have been up to in recent days. Note the names of those present at the gathering.

    The British Labour / Israel Dinner Date
    by JAMES ELLIOTT
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/10/the-british-labour-israel-dinner-date/

    The only cheering thing to read is that Labour Friends of Palestine has a membership of 80.

    http://www.lfi.org.uk/lfi-supporters-in-parliament/

    The JC reports some warmongering by Alexander
    .
    ‘Mr Alexander said the threat posed by Iran must be taken seriously. The country’s funding of Hizbollah, support for Syria’s President Assad, and supply of weapons to the Taliban, meant “a nuclear armed Iran is not simply a threat to Israel, it is a threat to all nations”.

    He added: “Israel has a right, indeed an obligation, to defend itself, and as past conflicts remind us, that demands a strong Israeli Defence Force.”’

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/109222/shadow-foreign-secretary-douglas-alexander-warns-labour-over-israel

    Note Balls is off to Israel.

  172. [Mod: comment entirely about another poster, removed]

  173. OK, you old dragon, I’ll take your advice over “Small Gods” by Pratchett and “Riotous Assembly” by Sharpe, when I get a few free moments.

  174. Fedup, at 11:38pm on 10.7.13: Brilliant post, thanks.

    John, good on you.

    Kibo Noh, you need a new name? How about… let me see… ‘Shantelle’? [the second syllable enunciated, not in a French accent, but loudly in female falsetto Glaswegian]

  175. Hi Suhayl, belated thanks for your earlier appreciation of my post extract from K. Wonder if you actually read that piece or watched the video. I do recommend it/them. He so shows the wrong turn that humanity has taken and in a holistic way points out another way.

    More insights and less analysis is humanity’s need in these very conflicted times. Keep yours coming.

  176. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:21 pm

    [Mod: removed, off-topic]

  177. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:28 pm

    Just watching the close of the debate about the need for a vote in parliament before arming the Syrian opposition groups.

    Winding up, the shadow minister of foreign affairs Ian Lucas is a member of Labour Friends of Israel and the minister Alistair Burt was a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel. Perhaps its the done thing for ministers to come out of it for the duration.

    A vote on the motion has been called for.

  178. Flaming June

    11 Jul, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    A different view of Mandela and the ANC from the one usually received. Pilger always writes from the basis of his own knowledge and experience.

    From Apartheid to Neoliberalism in South Africa
    Mandela’s Tarnished Legacy http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/11/mandelas-tarnished-legacy/ John Pilger.

    ~~~

    PS The vote on the motion “This House believes no lethal support should be provided to anti-government forces in Syria without the explicit prior consent of parliament” was 147 for and 1 against, so that’s Cameron and Hague told and will hopefully prevent them taking any action during the 7 week long Summer recess.

  179. Members of the master race only agree with democracy for lesser races when lesser races vote for things people from the master race agree with.
    :)
    People in Muslim countries want to be governed by Islam.
    Get over it!

    You might believe your way of life is superior to anyone elses, but everyone else disagrees. Just as you believe your race is superior to anyone elses but you don’t seem to like to admit that anymore.

    You to your way, we to ours.

    You know you whites like to tell us lesser races about the wonders of your way of life. How secularism protects everyones right to follow their religion.
    It might protect your right to swear at the Prophet’s but it doesn’t protect our rights to follow them.
    Egypt was full of bans on Hijab and restrictions on men growing beards and praying in Mosques when it followed your enlightened secularism.
    So please take your secularism and shove it up your enlightened arse.
    :)
    We will govern ourselves by Islam to protect our rights to follow our religion.
    And we will also protect the rights of Non-Muslims to follow theirs because Islam gives them that right.

  180. ‘Ow’s the fish, Arsalan? Good to hear from you again, man. Even if I find your post (4:44pm) touchingly naive. Haven;t you noticed that the Great Powers of our Sublime North Atlantic Alliance have been supporting Islamic paramilitaries right across the Middle East? So, my firned, be uplifted: The Great Satan is with you!

  181. Whether they are with us or against us, the Islamic parties are what people voted for.
    Right wing white supremacists say, “who the people voted for should be ignored and the army supported because the great Satan is against them”.

    The left white supremacists say “We support the army against who the people voted for because the great Satan only pretends to be against Islam, America is really the main supporters of that”.

    Whoever the great Satan supports is not relevant to the blatant hypocrisy of people that claim to believe in democracy but change their minds as soon as brown people vote for people they disagree with.

    Our reason why we believe in Islam is nothing to do with a belief that “”America is against islam”, just as it isn’t due to a belief “America is for Islam”.
    We believe in Islam, because Islam is what we believe in.
    And when the people are allowed free and fair elections, they vote for Islamic parties.
    And when they did so in Algeria, the people they voted for were declared terrorists for the crime of winning the election.
    We believe in Islam, all of it. It is up to America whether they like the fact we do or hate the fact we do. It makes no difference to us, we will always believe in Islam.
    And true Muslims want to be governed by Islam, all of it. Not just the bits that are acceptable to whites.

  182. Hallelujah!

    Well, democracy is about more than just a ballot every four years as an means to absolute power. And billions of petrodollars and paramilitary forces that crush all other possibilities (except military rule) do not constitute ‘the will of the people’. And when the people recognise that they’ve been duped by neoliberal Islamist agents, and rise up to topple the agents, the army steps in and stops the people taking power by placing yet more neoliberal agents into positions of power.

    And Arsalan, when you claim to talk for “brown people”, and ‘Muslim people’ perhaps you would do well to remember that you too are white and that you cannot claim to talk for all, or even the majority of, Muslim people.

  183. Democracy is hypocrisy. It isn’t my slogan, i am not the one that claims to believe in it. It is they that do. And it is they that reject it when it results in something that they disagree with.
    Democray is just a rubber stamp they use to justify putting in power who they would have put in to power anyway.

    Do you even think about what you write?
    Haven’t you seen the billions in petro dollars the oil amirs have given to the millitry dictators after the coup? the Fighter jets America just handed over to them?
    The fact that every western government recognised the coup?

    But all that is irrilivant. you hold the same mindset as the colonialists on how the natives can not be trusted to choose their own way. If they choose anyway but your own they have been duped havent they?

    Just to clarify, I am not a supporter of the brotherhood or morsi. They were idiots if they thought they had a chance of taking power through the ballot box. didn’t algeria teach them anything?
    I don’t believe in Democract, the west doesn’t believe in democracy, the army doesn’t believe in democracry and Suhayl Saadi, you don’t believe in democracy.
    We all believe in out own way of government. And if the people agree with us, we agree with them. Unlike you I admit that I don’t believe in democracy. While you and the west redefine it everytime when the people want something that isn’t what you want.

    The only people who believe in democracy are the people who would agree with its outcome if it was something other than what they themselves would have chosen.
    That isn’t me, and it clearly isn’t you.

  184. You know I was refering to the imperialist mindset by “brown and white”, it is beneath you to pretend that you didnt.

  185. Arsalan, if I read your 2:10pm post correctly, you seem to be saying much the same as Islam4UK, a group of pro-Sharia fundamentalists who wish to remove democracy in the UK and replace it with theocratic rule. I met some of them, rather by accident, as they were doing a roadshow around the UK and were speaking to members of the public – I spoke to one chap for an hour or so.

    His basic error – and yours if you don’t mind my saying – is believing that the atrocities caused by the West represent the will of Western people. One or two people here have recently made the point that the UK is more democratic than other places (including places that are theocratically ruled) but it would be fair to add that it is not democratic enough. The invasion of Iraq was specifically undemocratic, since many millions of ordinary people marched against it and it went ahead anyway.

    People in Muslim countries want to be governed by Islam.

    This, thankfully, is a sweeping generalisation, and thus is false. Yes, some people in Muslim countries support Sharia law as a replacement for a democracy, but not everyone does. I should think people of other religions and people of none in (predominantly) Muslim countries do not wish to see Sharia introduced at all.

    Incidentally, if you are taking the view that Suhayl above is speaking in support of imperialism, then I think you have substantially misunderstood him.

  186. well Kibo Noh, thanks for the delightful Sophia, so well versed with shedlife.

    which brings me to this Sunday afternoon diversion….

    Mind, I’m well aware that some of the best ideas, ever, have come out of sheds and garages, spaces were you gaze outside, listen to the birds and bees, whilst letting the innovative mind sore to ever more intricate heights, were blueprints become Eureka moments and were life is easy holding a cup of tea.

    make mine an Assam, watch in wonder, a motorbike with no frame in the 1990′s, awesome.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFkfhrTrIk

  187. Jon
    I don’t know them. I don’t speak for them, they don’t speak for me.

    It isn’t Muslims that want to replace democracy with Islamic law.
    There is no such thing as the democracy you are on about.
    It is just a useless slogan.

    It wasn’t us, so called Muslim fundamentalists who go about removing democratically elected governments.
    People voted for what you called fundamentalist Islamists.
    And it is blatant hypocrisy for people like yourself to claim you believe in democracy, but not if the people want a system you disagree with.

    My question to you is, if the majority of people here in the UK want to be ruled by Islam. If an Islamic part won the election, would you stop believing in democracy?

  188. Arsalan, having the vote is not a sufficient condition to ensure democracy on its own. After all Hitler was democratically elected and look what he did with it. It seems to me that for a democracy to function properly it has to be propped up by three basic pillars (and the institutions that support them) – the right to vote, freedom of speech/press, and the rule of law.

    Challenge them as I have inadvertently done and you will soon find that these pillars are more fiction than reality. Here in Canada, as in the UK, it has to be said that the democracy is a bit of a sham and it seems to me that with the growing power of the secret (and unaccountable)security state, the situation is getting worse day by day.

    And there is a forth pillar too – the right of minorities not to be dominated by the majority.

  189. ‘ello Arsalan,

    I don’t know them. I don’t speak for them, they don’t speak for me.

    Of course, I didn’t claim that. I said that you both appear to be saying the same things, with my intended inference being that you are inadvertently supporting religious fundamentalism.

    There is no such thing as the democracy you are on about.

    Do you mean there are no current examples of it, or that it is impossible? To take the first point, there has been discussion here in the past about Swiss I & R, which already exists, and whilst it is not perfect, I think it would be the right step forward for any state that genuinely wishes to be ruled by the demos. If however you believe it is impossible to achieve, I disagree – we need to be optimistic.

    It wasn’t us, so called Muslim fundamentalists who go about removing democratically elected governments.

    And it wasn’t us, so-called democracy supporters, who go about removing democratically elected governments.

    My question to you is, if the majority of people here in the UK want to be ruled by Islam. If an Islamic [party] won the election, would you stop believing in democracy?

    Ah, I think I understand your earlier comments now – you are disenfranchised with systems that are labelled “democratic” because, in the West, the “wrong” election result (such as Hamas in Palestine) will sometimes not be recognised by world powers. I agree with you on this point: this is an example of abuse of imperial power, but since it’s an undemocratic abuse, it’s not the fault of the theory of democracy. It just means that democracy isn’t respected by elites as much as it should be (but then that has always been the case). I’ll touch on this later, though.

    To answer your question directly, I’ll assume by “Islamic party” you mean one that would implement Sharia courts and remove the houses of Parliament, the judiciary and the principles of the legal system. If such a party won an election fairly in the UK, I would not recognise the result, since it is undemocratic to use democracy to destroy democracy. Put another way, if the people who voted for this party changed their mind after a few years of theocratic rule, they would not be able to vote them out since voting will have been abolished.

    For what it’s worth, I think I would struggle to come to terms with any faith party doing well in the British polls. We have something of a proud record of secularism in both national and local elections, and I hope it stays that way. Religion (and thus also religious politics) is, in my view, a symbol of the suffering of the masses, who turn to increasingly irrational solutions to ameliorate their woes. Even though faith fails to cure the ills of poverty, war, basic want and hunger, the feeling that we have a benign creator is comforting but unprovable.

    That all said, it’ll surprise you to hear that I respect people’s religious choices, since people must be free to decide for themselves. I think on the whole religion (and religious politics) is bad for people.

    Earlier I indicated that Hamas should be recognised as the government of Palestine. However, I also don’t think governments should be religious in character. Thus, I suppose I have two competing values (respect for democracy and support for secular governance) so I have to sort them in order of importance.

    So I understand where you are coming from, is there an example of an Islamic party in the world (whether in power or not) who you would vote for?

  190. “And there is a forth pillar too – the right of minorities not to be dominated by the majority.”

    This is the excuse they use to nulify democracy when lesser races are the majority and the master race is the minority.

    They have no problems at all with the majority dominating the minority when they themselves are the majority, do they?
    When France bans the Hijab and the Niqab, it is democracy and the minority needs to submit or get out?
    Isn’t it?
    And Canada itself has it’s own bans on Islamic practice, so before you come to us to preach respecting minorities to us. Isn’t it about time you started implimenting it where you are?
    Well, not just us, the way you treat your aboriginal minority is much worse.

    And that is exactly why I use “White and brown” here.
    It is all to do with racial superiority of the white race. When a non-Muslim country votes in someone with ideas whites don’t like they use the same old excuses.

    Remember what this thread is about?
    It is about people in Egypt voting for a party that some white people wish they had not voted for. And then those same white people who always talk about how white nations are superior to brown because white nations have democracy, suporting the army in removing that elected government.

    This is not just about Egypt.
    Islamic parties have won elections in many other nations.
    And everytime they do, the very people that scream democracy and use it as an excuse to kill and invade make excuses against democracy.
    Elections are just a rubber stamp when your guy wins.
    When the other guy wins, then winning an election is an act of terrorism. For which people are arrested, tortured and killed.
    :)
    So, you the enlightened white master race can take your freedom, your democracy, your capitalism, socialism, communism, freedom and secularism and shove it up your chock on it.
    You to your way and we to ours.

    We have our own ways of governing ourselves. you might think your ways are better just as you think your race is better. But we don’t. Get over it!

  191. Jon I think I need to clarify my position.

    I think the confusion might be my fault because I have said two seperate things and not indicate they are seperate.

    My first point was to do with this thread.
    The elections in egypt.
    the Brotherhood won.
    the Army removed them.
    They were arrested for the crime of winning an election.
    The west recognised the army rule.
    My point was to show the hypocrisy of those people who keep calling for democracy but call for something else when anyone other then their own people win.

    Jon your last post shows the key issues here. Democracy is just one tiny part of what people believe in when it comes to ruling.
    If the people you elect implement what you want implemented you are happy with democracy. If they implement anything else you are not happy.
    You wouldn’t like to be government by Shariya courts.
    But the people of Egypt would.
    That is why they voted for who they did.
    The same thing happened in Algeria. And if every Muslim country ever had free and fair elections, you would find that is what would happen all over the Muslim world.
    That is why White countries support the dictators and kings in the Muslim world.
    They make no secret of knowing the system that would replace them if there were free and fair elections.
    My first point was to call YOUR democracy, hypocrisy.
    The fact is you believe in your system, and if an election results in your system all well and good. But if it results in anything else. Well then the election is not valid is it?
    You don’t really believe in democracy do you? in the rule of the people. you and everyone else believe in the rule of yourown people.
    People that think like you.

    My second point was:
    So do I. I don’t believe in democracy. I believe in my own way.
    I am just not a hypocrit about it. I don’t claim it is all about the majority of people agrying with me.

    So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.
    And allow us lesser people to rule ourselves by our ways.

    We have our own history and traditions that we can use to develope our own systems.
    We have no reason to want to become duplicates of the white race.

    What confuses me is why you all go on about Muslims trying to force their shariya courts on you?
    It isn’t use invading your countries forcing our ways on you. It is the other way.
    There are no Muslims trying to take over the UK or canada or any other white nation. None of us are lobying the priminister to make him implemant islamic law.
    It is the other way.
    It is you forcing your ways on us.

  192. Arsalan, thanks.

    I haven’t made my mind up about the events in Egypt. I would in general agree that the army seizing power is a worrying development, and yes, the US recognition is bound to have come from the usual self-serving “American interests” mindset. However, I am moderately of the opinion that the overthrow has widespread popular support, i.e. the people changed their mind. If you have views on that I should be most interested to hear them. Did the Brotherhood fail to live up to expectations, or has popular support for the coup been mischaracterised?

    You wouldn’t like to be government by Shariya courts.
    But the people of Egypt would.
    That is why they voted for who they did.

    I have to say I don’t know the dynamics in Egypt well enough to be able to comment on that. My guess is that they appear to be, in the main, quite moderate and the Egyptian people voted for them on that basis. From my limited understanding, the Brotherhood would likely have continued within a democratic framework, and that there was no popular mandate for its dissolution. I should be interested if you know otherwise, of course.

    Some of what you say confuses imperialism’s disdain for democracy with my concerns about undemocratic systems, and you are entirely wrong to suggest I don’t believe in democracy. I suggested that if a religious party was voted into power in the UK, and they intended to dismantle the democratic framework, then the result should not be accepted; I say this because I believe in democracy, not because I don’t.

    I accept that rejecting a democratic decision to destroy democracy is a contradiction, it certainly is. In such cases, one again has to prioritise competing values. But equally, your position contains the opposite contradiction: you claim to hate democracy and appear to be in favour of absolutist theocratic rule, but you wish to use democracy as the vehicle to get you there. Is that not odd, in your mind?

    So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.

    This is worrying stuff. There is no such thing as a “white country” and making this the fault of “whites” is as racist as the imperial attitudes towards Muslims that you rightly decry. In any case, US/UK support for dreadful regimes around the world is essentially a capitalist decision – any religious/racial conflict that stems from it is regarded by the elites as just a side-effect.

    I notice you use the word “you” a lot, suggesting that you believe I am personally forcing my ways onto you. I am doing no such thing, but importantly, it reveals your world-view to be quite them-and-us, which is wrong. Some Muslim folk are quite attached to democracy, as it happens, just as some white folks would abolish it tomorrow if they could.

    None of us are lobying the Prime Minister to make him implement Islamic law.

    Not true, as my earlier post showed. There are groups in the UK who are (or at least were) calling for theocratic rule and the dissolution of the democratic and legal mechanisms.

    Final point; I’d like to appeal to you to try to understand my views as being well-motivated. If you believe that I support American imperialism, or that I am secretly racist, it just isn’t true. I want peace, security and justice for everyone, and I condemn imperialism in all its forms. Whilst you genuinely think religious rule will solve the problems of predominantly Muslim countries, I regard that as an example of false consciousness i.e. you actively support policies that are opposed to your own interests. Perhaps you have been lured into that view by seeing Islamic countries as a barrier to total American domination, and whilst that may be true to some extent, you put too much faith in fallible humans to think it can’t go wrong.

    If you support the creation of a religious oligarchy, and such a thing were to come into existence where you live, you may later regret it. Unfortunately your support cannot be withdrawn, and short of a popular revolution you will not be allowed to change your mind.

  193. Arsalan makes FedUp/Passerby look like Norman St John Stevas.

  194. Arsalan – I was not referring to Egypt in my earlier comment since I have not been given enough information by the media in Canada to be able to form a knowledgeable opinion; though in general I don’t like to see the military intervene either.

    Nor do I support Canada’s treatment of its dissenters, and the lack of adherence of the Harper Government to rule of law and even basic civil liberties. Their record on democracy is truly shocking. Mr. Harper is marching us down the road to a sham democracy. Our security agencies are totally out of control and becoming a threat to democracy. I have written on the subject.

    http://lobster-magazine.co.uk/free/lobster65/lob65-canadian-spy-agency.pdf

    I am not in any way opposed to fundamental religion provided it doesn’t interfere in the lives of those who have a different viewpoint. I can certainly think of the West’s past sins in this regard – from Torquemada and the Inquisition to the fundamentalist political movements we have had in Europe that brook no opposition and seem to have a need to persecute in an almost quasi-religious manner – Hitler and Auschwitz or Stalin and the Gulag, etc.. But, what all this tells me is that there is a need to protect minority rights if one wants to live in an inclusive, tolerant and prosperous state as I do – what I called in my earlier comment: the 4th pillar of democracy.

  195. How ironic that Arsalan Goldberg writes this:

    “So the best thing for all concerned is white people should rule white countries by their white ways.
    And allow us lesser people to rule ourselves by our ways.”

    Arsalan, you are white and you are from, of and are living in (what you would call) a ‘white’ country.

    What is this, Stockholm Syndrome? Lebensraum? “Our ways”. Yeah, sure. “Our ways”, defined by Maududi and Qutb and propelled by the House of Ibn Saud.

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