Feile An Phobail Belfast

by craig on July 30, 2013 2:05 pm in Uncategorized

The Respectability of Torture


St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm

 

Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, was a whistleblower who was removed from his ambassadorial post by Tony Blair for exposing the Tashkent regime‟s use of rape and systematic torture, including the boiling to death of political opponents. He has also spoken out against Central Asia‟s appalling dictatorships, regimes which are allies of the West, involved in torture and rendition, and was accused of threatening MI6‟s relationship with the CIA. Now a human rights activist, author and broadcaster, he outlines the dynamics of torture and the hypocrisy of incriminated Western governments.

 

My first public appearance for a while will be in Belfast on 1 August where I shall be giving a talk.  Long term readers of this blog will recall that, while my focus is largely on international affairs, the domestic political achievements I most hope to see are a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.

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4,110 Comments

  1. Craig Murray, Scottish ambassador to Israel…..It has a certain ring to it.

  2. Wow. You want to dissolve my country and have it merged with the rest if Ireland? Why not an independent Northern Ireland?

    And ambassador to Israel?

    In my eyes you’ve already lost credibility. No regard for those who don’t wish to be part of a united ireland.

  3. Don’t forget to mention Alan Dershowitz and his idea for legal torture warrants, Craig.

  4. Chris, pretty much any cause going that will dismantle the British state is a cause worth fighting for around here.

  5. @Chris – oh, get over yourself. Good luck Craig, have a gud un.

  6. Screw a United Ireland, I am a Civil Servant and I dread to think what my pay would drop down to with the state of their economy.
    Not really a good choice being ruled by the crooks in England or by the crooks down South. At least with the English I am better off and likely be less violence in my streets.
    Our country is a long way off being ready for it and it will just start a new civil war off.

  7. Chris, Woobus.

    Knee-jerk support for any anti-establishment cause.

  8. I’d very much like to see the UK become independent of the US. There is only one thing worse than being a serf to the masters of your own country, and that is seeing the masters of your own country servants to a foreign power. It is I think the ‘doubly dying’ Sir Walter Scott talked about in “The Lay of the Last Minstrel”

    “Breathes there a man with soul so dead
    Who never to himself hath said:
    This is my own, my native land . . .”

  9. John Goss +1.

    Think that’s the priority. Even the excrescences (the UK ones) might care to consider it. Scotland: if they want it, in a fair and open referendum, what democrat can deny them? Ireland: not sure it wouldn’t be more troublesome to all than the present arrangement. Though economically more sensible, perhaps.

    Anyway, Craig, break a leg!

  10. Kempe: Knee-jerk growl at any pro-establishment cause.

  11. Anti! I meant anti!

  12. Make your mind up Komodo.

  13. John Goss + 2

    And independence for Oz from US influence.

    Like a hundred of people held at gunpoint by a gangster who only has six rounds, nobody wants to act unilaterally out of fear that the penalties will be too great.

  14. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 5:26 pm

  15. Will you be able to post a video of the talk in Belfast ?
    Please !

  16. Lady on the run

    30 Jul, 2013 - 5:54 pm

    When statists talk in normative terms, that’s how you know that they’re trying to mitigate crimes. The US government’s moral handwringing over the peremptory norm of freedom from torture is exactly the same as Ted Bundy giving a soul-searching pre-execution interview. It’s all wheeling and dealing for clemency.

    http://www.zcommunications.org/torture-and-international-human-rights-by-francis-boyle

    We’ll live to see Obama pleading at the Hague.

  17. Yeah, good luck with that.

    NI has quite a degree of autonomy at the moment, and it’s probably fair enough to say that cultural union is currently much more in vogue than political union.

    Remember too that there will aways be those from lands near and afar who will seek to magnify any political dissent to their own purposes. It’s still there in NI at the moment and there’s a very similar version ongoing in England with EDL, UAF and Islamist protests etc.

  18. BrianFujisan

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:41 pm

    Wow..Thank Goodness for that Mark.

    Perhaps they finally began to see just how many people support Bradley.

    Have a good trip to Ireland Craig

  19. When Scotland goes independent, maybe Wales can join up with Scotland rather than England? If only to escape Tory Westminster.

  20. John Goss

    “I’d very much like to see the UK become independent of the US. There is only one thing worse than being a serf to the masters of your own country, and that is seeing the masters of your own country servants to a foreign power.”

    But is the U.K. a servant of the U.S. or are they both servants of another foreign power?

  21. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:49 pm

    July 30, 2013

    Acquitted of “Aiding the Enemy,” found guilty of several other counts under Espionage Act

    The Meaning of the Manning Verdict

    by KATE EPSTEIN

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/30/the-meaning-of-the-manning-verdict/

    I, like the other 14m who have seen it, will never forget this video of the Apache killings.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

  22. Sorry Craig,

    I admire your stance on torture etc. an awful lot. You waved goodbye to a decent career for a principle and I was brought up to respect that sort of thing and would do so even if I wasn’t in tune with the reasons for it. But I’m afraid your sentiments with regard to domestic British politics just look like parochial separatism to me. This archipelago is very small and we’re going to have to rub along together one way or another. We don’t have a choice. Our only choice is in how we live together. Rightly or wrongly, I just think that the governmental institutions we develop and adopt should reflect that immutable reality. We could dissolve into an array of city states if we were stupid enough – and I dare say some are – but what good would that do? And I write as one who is constantly appalled by the policies – foreign and domestic – coming out of Westminster and wish I could get rid of them. But I’ll take a whole lot of convincing that separatism is the answer.

  23. Thank you, Flaming June, for those links. I suggest that all UK users of this website send the links to their MP and ask for her/his reaction. I will be doing so for my MP, Tessa Jowell. Let’s collate the responses.

  24. “St Mary’s University College, Thurs 1st August, 7.30pm”

    I might go up, Craig. If I can go to Cork to see Shlomo Sand … And I’ve only ever seen you speak on video. And, I wouldn’t mind a day in Belfast anyway!
    Best of luck with it.

  25. Why not a united Scotland and Northern Ireland? Geographically, ethnically and historically the links are much closer than with England in both cases.

  26. I do not think the Catholics in Northern Ireland would ever accept union with Scotland. It would look like gerrymandering to assure a large Protestant majority and a small Catholic minority in the new state.

    I think it’s possible that all the populations involved would be willing to accept a union of a united Ireland plus Scotland.

  27. Rhisiart Gwilym

    30 Jul, 2013 - 11:22 pm

    Good luck Craig. And don’t forget, as well as Eire doing what the >majority< of its citizens want, whether they happen to live in the liberated part or the foreign-occupied part, and as well as Scotland getting free of the damned ukstate, there's us in Cymru as well, needing liberation from seven hundred years of Engish-raj imperialism; and even — whisper it — the little nation of Kernow, which the English raj insolently call an English county.

    Let's all be free. And that includes the poor bloody rank-and-file English. They need liberation too, as urgently as the rest of us, from the ukstate and the English raj and their grovelling-vassal status to the USAmerican empire.

  28. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 11:26 pm

    @Roger. 10 42pm

    “Why not a united Scotland and Northern Ireland?”

    Scotland for the Scoti sounds like the slogan to campaign with.

    But maybe not. Let’s deal with building a peacefully united Ireland and and independent Scotland first.

    I’ll be content if we can each restore our sovereignty while celebrating our shared heritage.

  29. “Why not a united Scotland and Northern Ireland? Geographically, ethnically and historically the links are much closer than with England in both cases.”

    Geographically Scotland and England are part of the same island separated by nothing but an imaginary line which moves from time to time.

    Ethnically Scotland and England are pretty much the same.

    Historically rich Scottish land owners persecuted the Irish in the Plantation of Ulster.

  30. @ John Goss,

    Who said:-

    ” I’d very much like to see the UK become independent of the US. There is only one thing worse than being a serf to the masters of your own country, and that is seeing the masters of your own country servants to a foreign power. It is I think the ‘doubly dying’ Sir Walter Scott talked about in “The Lay of the Last Minstrel”

    “Breathes there a man with soul so dead
    Who never to himself hath said:
    This is my own, my native land . . .”

    So – the death of an Empire and the emergence of others?

  31. Agree with Jemand 4.42 – Independence for Australia from sucking up to the US, and from having a foreign (English) head of state.

  32. As someone earlier stated secularisation serves the purpose of empowering the individual or at least leaves an impression of egalatarianism but really are we still entitled to share the freedoms we once had as a union.

    Serfdom requires us to be free.

  33. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 7:36 am

    ‘When will Blair and co be held to account?

    Tuesday 30 July 2013

    Figures obtained by the BBC under a Freedom of Information request show that last year the Home Office identified nearly 100 suspected war criminals and that many of those individuals were believed to have been living in Britain for a number of years.

    Suspects are believed to have come from a number of countries including Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Rwanda, Serbia and Sri Lanka.

    Now the Home Office is making robust noises and has vowed to ensure that Britain does not become “a refuge for war criminals.”

    Four Rwandan men arrested in May this year are “suspected of involvement in the 1994 genocide that led to the deaths of an estimated 800,000 people.”

    James Smith of Aegis, a charity involved in the prevention of crimes again humanity said: “If we don’t pursue those prosecutions, the UK could become known as a retirement home for war criminals.”

    In addition, a Home Office spokesman said: “Anyone accused of these crimes should be put on trial in their home country and we will always seek to return them to face justice.”

    In the light of the Home Office statement, I take it the relevant powers will be taking an equally robust stance towards Tony Blair, Jack Straw, Lord Goldsmith and Gordon Brown, who wrote the cheques for the illegal invasion of Iraq based on untruths and dodgy dossiers, which has resulted in significantly more than one million deaths and counting.

    Or do suspected war criminals only get counted if they are black, Middle Eastern, eastern European or from further afield, while ours travel the globe with impunity?

    Felicity Arbuthnot
    London E9 ‘

    http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/135971

  34. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 8:43 am

    O/T Will Theresa May reveal to the British public the names of these 100 organisations who have broken the law? We will probably be told that it would prejudice the ongoing investigations in Operation Tuleta. We have such an open society, NOT.

    Hacking: Law Firms On List Handed To MPs
    A list of 100 non-media names is handed to a government committee but police will not confirm who is under investigation.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1122355/hacking-law-firms-on-list-handed-to-mps

    ‘The Metropolitan Police allegedly holds a list of 200 more companies and individuals who may have used rogue private investigators to steal personal information.’

  35. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 8:59 am

    Another letter, this time an open letter to the World Health Organisation and the Iraqi Ministry of Health about the non-release of their promised report on cancers and birth defects in Iraq.

    http://www.zcommunications.org/to-the-world-health-organization-who-and-the-iraqi-ministry-of-health-new-signatures-added-by-mozhgan-savabieasfahani

  36. This is for the Scots – no, actually, it’s for all of us. Hope you haven’t seen. It’s so funny!

    ‘Voice recognition lift – eleven’
    http://dotsub.com/view/6c5d7514-5656-476a-9504-07dd4e2f6509

  37. The Threat of Nuclear War, North Korea or the United States?
    By Prof Michel Chossudovsky

    Global Research, July 25, 2013

    While the Western media portrays North Korea’s nuclear weapons program as a threat to Global Security, it fails to acknowledge that the US has being threatening North Korea with a nuclear attack for more than half a century.

    On July 27, 2013, Armistice Day, Koreans in the North and the South will be commemorating the end of the Korean war (1950-53). Unknown to the broader public, the US had envisaged the use of nuclear weapons against North Korea at the very outset of the Korean War in 1950. In the immediate wake of the war, the US deployed nuclear weapons in South Korea for use on a pre-emptive basis against the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) in violation of the July 1953 Armistice Agreement.

    /..
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-threat-of-nuclear-war-north-korea-or-the-united-states/5343793

  38. Sofia Kibo Noh

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:36 am

    @Flaming. 8 59am

    Thanks for the link.

    The British Medical Journal published an article entitled” WHO suppressed evidence on effects of depleted uranium, expert says” in November 2006. It suggested that earlier WHO reports were compromised by the omission of a full account of depleted uranium genotoxicity.  
    Additionally, recent revelations by Hans von Sponeck, the former Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations, suggest that WHO may be susceptible to pressure from its member states. Mr. von Sponeck has said that “The US government sought to prevent WHO from surveying areas in southern Iraq where depleted uranium had been used and caused serious health and environmental dangers.”
     
    Is it time to prepare to bring the perpetrators before the ICC​

    Can anyone justify the burning of depleted uranium in munitions?

  39. Sofia Kibo Noh

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:57 am

    More on depleted uranium munitions and their after-effects.

    https://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0113-01.htm

  40. Sofia:
    The primary intention isn’t to burn it: the idea is to give a projectile enough density (or if you prefer weight relative to its cross sectional area) to penetrate armour. In the process it gets pulverised, and burns. As a byproduct of the nuclear industry, it is relatively available, denser and more convenient than, say tungsten (which can be used in DIME munitions, as a powder, because it doesn’t burn)

    Nasty shit, but you knew that.

  41. Sofia Kibo Noh

    31 Jul, 2013 - 11:41 am

    @Komodo.

    Thanks.

    I used “burning” because it seems to me that the terrible public health consequences come from the oxidation bye-products rather than the armour-piercing impact.

  42. Don’t go near any burning aircraft, btw. Commercial airliners use DU as ballast.

  43. Sofia says:

    the oxidation bye-products rather than the armour-piercing impact.

    The gas cloud generated by the heat, and the compounds contained, that are in nano particle formats can breach the body defences, and barriers and lodge in various organs, that in turn due to the ceramic nature of these nano particles, body chemistry cannot break these ceramics down and render these harmless, in turn leading to many devastating diseases.

    Here you will find a better explanation..

  44. Al-Qaeda pledges to free Guantanamo inmates

    “Al Qaeda will “spare no effort” in setting free inmates at the US-run Guantanamo Bay detention camp, the terrorist network’s leader pledged. The warning comes after a series of attacks by militant groups on prisons in Libya, Iraq and Pakistan.

    “Ayman al-Zawahri voiced his threats in an audio address published on an Islamist website. The authenticity of the recording has not been verified, Reuters reports.

    http://rt.com/news/qaeda-guantanamo-inmates-free-845/

  45. Snowden’s dad originally urged his son to come home and face the music, you may remember. Now he’s saying ‘stay where you are, you won’t get a fair trial here.’

    Maybe it was something the FBI said to him? Whoops.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23514431

  46. America is truly the axis of evil in the Middle East. Buying and trafficking arms, training and funding rebel fighters, are considered U.S. investments in the future of M.E. conflicts, which, at any time, can be paid with interest via a direct U.S. military invasion.

    Paralysed by Israel’s high level influence and enervated by seductive Israeli lobbies, America took advantage of the ‘Arab Spring’ and declared that Libya was enduring a revolution, having engineered anti-government demonstrations in the eastern city of Benghazi. This then was the trigger, the spark for Emperor Obama to militarily intervene even though no such mass lobby was observed in the Libyan capital, Tripoli.

    The same dynamic occurred in Syria where rebellion was ‘scammed’ into false revolution by using trained religious extremists who became the motor force of the rebels doing the vast majority of the fighting and distorting the true nature of the rebels as an anti-Assad coalition.

    The most effective fighting force among the Syrian rebels is Jabhat al-Nursa, religious extremists that use Iraq ‘death squad’ terrorist tactics and are directly affiliated with al-Qaeda and the CIA.

    Recently this group’s dominance is being threatened by another Islamist extremist terror group, Ahrar al-Sham, which is funded and populated by Qatar and which is thought to have around 30,000 fighters in Syria.

    While America pursues pro-Western geo-political goals by ‘strings attached’ manipulation, at least 25,000 Syrian children have been murdered and 6.8 million Syrians need aid according to OCHA figures – http://www.unocha.org/crisis/syria

    To insist that NATO or Gulf monarchies supply arms to the rebels is, in essence, to invite the United States to directly participate in the Syrian conflict on a deeper level (the Emperor Obama administration is already supplying thousands of tons of arms to the Syrian rebels covertly through the CIA).

    Currently the same manipulative dynamic is transpiring in Egypt with exactly the same U.S. investments in a future conflict with Iran intended to throttle energy supplies to China and energy cooperation with Russia.

    Without such massive control from America, Britain and allies these and imminent conflicts would have ended long ago and thousands of innocent lives would have been spared.

    Demanding that this bloodletting continue — especially without ANY prospect for a successful end — is to demand the destruction of an already suffering mother earth.

    The U.S. Occupy Movement was no revolution. It is time for the American people to be in a position to effectively assert their power in order to change the U.S. administration power dynamic of American society in their favor AND REMOVE ‘President’ Obama.

    A nation can be inhabited by entirely revolutionary-minded people, but there is no revolution unless people are massively asserting their power in the streets, workplaces, and neighborhoods.

    That connection is how we, as a human race, evolve and cheat extinction.

  47. People commenting on Twitter that the fact that Bradley Manning is also a UK citizen is getting very little mention.

  48. According to the Guardian today, he’s not a UK citizen. He was born in the USA to an American father and Welsh mother. She subsequently returned to Wales, so he was brought up there.

  49. ‘Battle for Balcombe’: English village becomes hub for fracking debate

    http://tcktcktck.org/2013/07/battle-for-balcombe-english-village-becomes-hub-for-fracking-debate/55382

  50. “According to the Guardian today, he’s not a UK citizen. He was born in the USA to an American father and Welsh mother. She subsequently returned to Wales, so he was brought up there.”

    Oh ok. I’ll start informing tweeters then.

  51. Nah, let them fester in ignorance. More fun.

  52. Hey Komodo

    “Born in the US, he is a US citizen. But under the British Nationality Act of 1981, anyone born outside the UK after 1 January 1983 who has a mother who is a UK citizen by birth is British by descent.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/01/bradley-manning-uk-citizen

  53. Today’s Guardian -

    Manning doesn’t hold a British passport and doesn’t consider himself to be a UK citizen, but he is unquestionably half Welsh (the Foreign Office, notably, has stressed he is “British by descent”). Though he was born in the US, his parents met when Brian Manning, a US naval intelligence analyst, was stationed in the very southwest tip of Wales; Susan Manning, then Fox, was a local girl from Haverfordwest. An older sister, Casey, was born in Wales; Bradley followed in 1987 after his parents had returned to the tiny Oklahoma town of Crescent where Brian took up a job in a car rental firm. The marriage was not a success, and in 2001, after Brian walked out, Susan returned to her home town with her children.

    Wikipedia tells me that he probably has British citizenship, but may have had to formally apply for it. Does it matter? See William Hague for an independent champion of British rights against US interests, pmsl.

  54. Dreoilin, hot hair.

    Yes, let’s get Bradley Manning home. Perhaps we could do an exchange with all the US citizens we have in custody! Oh, sorry, I was forgetting we are the slaves of the US. It makes that laugh of a nationalist anthem, Rule Britannia, laughable. “Britons never never never shall be slaves”.

  55. No, stuff William Hague. They were commenting in relation to coverage of his situation in the UK. Which they didn’t seem to think was adequate.

  56. Bit quiet today, ennit? Think we need a rant. Starting point – William Hague.

    http://nonprofit.smashpipe.com/?f=UppzdKxcbcI#play/UppzdKxcbcI

  57. Right, Dreoilin. Re. coverage, it’s predictable. And I wouldn’t expect the conservative press to do anything other than emphasise the fact that Manning, a US citizen and regarding himself solely as such, signed the US military’s version of the Official Secrets Act, was put in a position of trust, and betrayed it comprehensively. Which is the (uncomfortable, maybe) fact. He got the book thrown at him -predictably, since discipline needs to be maintained in anyone’s armed forces – and IMO got a reasonably fair disposal in the circumstances.

    The real issues are, again IMO, the effectiveness of US military security versus the incredibly trivial material that attracts a security classification there, and the near absence of any official concern regarding some of the actions, equally forbidden by military law, which were revealed by his disclosures.

  58. “The real issues are, again IMO, the effectiveness of US military security versus the incredibly trivial material that attracts a security classification there” and

    Interesting you should say that

    ‘Manning, Snowden Trigger First-Of-Its-Kind Secrecy Review’

    http://killerapps.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/30/congress_will_review_how_the_government_keeps_its_secrets

    (I haven’t seen anything about re-training of Apache crews)

  59. Jeez

    “After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own “Rules of Engagement”.”

    http://www.collateralmurder.com/

  60. Freedom for Ireland.
    And also so for Great Britain – with or without Scotland – as old/ag(e)ing/former ambasdazsrz mite put yte

  61. Dreoilin: ‘Voice recognition lift – eleven’
    http://dotsub.com/view/6c5d7514-5656-476a-9504-07dd4e2f6509

    Thanks for that Dreoilin — that was the funniest thing i’ve seen here! Wherever do you dig this stuff out from?!

  62. Glad someone enjoyed it, Villager. I was doubled up. Husband emailed it to me. :)

  63. “Report Calls For Expansion Of Residential Workfare For Unemployed and Disabled People”

    http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/report-calls-for-expansion-of-residential-workfare-for-unemployed-and-disabled-people/#comments

  64. For users of ixquick/startpage search engines.

    https://startpage.com/eng/press/pr-pfs.html

    StartPage and Ixquick Deploy Newest Encryption Standards against Mass Surveillance
    First search engines to offer TLS 1.1.and 1.2 as well as “Perfect Forward Secrecy”

    July 19, 2013

    NEW YORK & AMSTERDAM: In the wake of the US PRISM Internet surveillance scandal, companies are revisiting how they do business online and beefing up their privacy practices to protect their users.

    Private search engines StartPage and Ixquick have pioneered a new advance in encryption security this week, becoming the first search engines in the world to enable “Perfect Forward Secrecy” or PFS in combination with a more secure version of SSL encryption known as TLS 1.1. and 1.2 , which works by setting up a secure “tunnel” through which users’ search traffic cannot be intercepted.

    …With SSL alone, if a target website’s “private key” can be obtained once in the future – perhaps through court order, social engineering, attack against the website, or cryptanalysis – that same key can then be used to unlock all other historical traffic of the affected website. For larger Internet services, that could expose the private data of millions of people.

    StartPage and Ixquick have now deployed a defense against this known as “Perfect Forward Secrecy,” or PFS.

    PFS uses a different “per-session” key for each data transfer, so even if a site’s private SSL key is compromised, data that was previously transmitted is still safe. Those who want to decrypt large quantities of data sent using PFS face the daunting task of individually decrypting each separate file, as opposed to obtaining a single key to unlock them all.

    This can be likened to replacing the master “skeleton key” that unlocks every room in a building with a tight security system that puts a new lock on each door and then creates a unique key for each lock.

    In addition to its pioneering use of PFS, earlier this month StartPage and Ixquick deployed Transport Layer Security, or TLS, encryption versions TLS 1.1 and 1.2 on all of its servers. TLS is an upgraded form of SSL encryption, which sets up a secure “tunnel” that protects users’ search information.

    In independent evaluation, StartPage and Ixquick outscore their competitors on encryption standards. (See Qualys’ SSL Labs evaluation of StartPage’s encryption features:)

    https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=startpage.com&s=69.90.210.72

    CEO Robert Beens urges other companies to upgrade to these new technologies. “With Perfect Forward Secrecy and TLS 1.1 and 1.2 combined, we are once again leading the privacy industry forward. For the sake of their users’ privacy, we strongly recommend other search engines follow our lead.”

    U.S. Press Contact:
    Tiffany Daschke
    (877) 434-3100 ext. 2

    E.U. Press Contact:
    Alex van Eesteren
    +31-30-6971778

  65. I didn’t realise that it was torturing Tony himself who had you sacked presumably because your revelations might have harmed his future business interests. Best of luck with the lecture,let us hope it opens a few more eyes to the horrors this revolting state has attempted to normalise.It is interesting in a grotesque kind of way that the U.S.military has said the retarded psychopaths involved in the collateral murder incident were operating in accordance with their “Rules of engagement” which appears to mean anyone anywhere may be slaughtered but then Obomber has made that crystal clear has he not? Anyway watch your back and have a great time.May I join others in thanking Dreoilin for a very funny piece ,I needed a lift!

  66. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie%E2%80%93Hellman_key_exchange

    The scheme was first published by Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman in 1976, although it had been separately invented a few years earlier within GCHQ, the British signals intelligence agency, by JamesH. Ellis, Clifford Cocks and Malcolm J. Williamson but was kept classified. In 2002, Hellman suggested the algorithm be called Diffie–Hellman–Merkle key exchange in recognition of Ralph Merkle’s contribution to the invention of public-key cryptography (Hellman, 2002).

  67. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 4:40 pm

    I keep seeing Negroponte on the box complaining that Bradley Manning has damaged the US’s ability to conduct normal diplomatic affairs.

    Perhaps he means this sort of diplomacy.

    Proconsul 2004
    http://www.mayayres.com/aggression-proconsul.html

    How vile.

    The sculptures are from that amazing exhibition by May Ayres that I saw in Bethnal Green.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Negroponte
    Born in London. Father a Greek shipping magnate.

  68. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 4:44 pm

    The new head of the FBI. Just the right qualifications for the job. Some irony below.

    Who is new FBI director James Comey?

    The former US deputy attorney general has experience in arms sales, hedge funds and banking. Does that make him qualified for the job?
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/30/fbi-director-james-comey

  69. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 4:52 pm

    O/T
    This country is really good at setting up serious case reviews after a child like this little chap has been murdered, in this case by his own mother and her partner who have been found guilty of murder. They will be sentenced on Friday. Why didn’t the school intervene? Look at the list of his injuries.

    Daniel Pelka: Review To Examine Failures
    A serious case review will look at whether authorities failed as evidence of excessive and extensive abuse was missed.http://news.sky.com/story/1122807/daniel-pelka-review-to-examine-failures

  70. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 5:00 pm

    Craig I see you got a mention in Rusbridger’s Ask Me Anything today! LOL

    http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jf6uc/i_am_alan_rusbridger_editor_in_chief_of_the/cbe1n1n

  71. “Craig I see you got a mention in Rusbridger’s Ask Me Anything today! LOL”

    Oh What a good girl am I !

  72. This country is really good at setting up serious case reviews after a child like this little chap has been murdered

    I am so sorry for the little tyke who died so hopeless and alone. It would take nothing to keep that little Daniel alive, and happy. I am really upset, for him and for the other little angels, who are going hungry, afraid, and in pain, across the planet.

    So far only the evil bitch of his mother and duane dibbley of her boyfriend, have been charged and convicted, and may these evil bastard suffer in hell (I really wish I could be afforded five minutes alone with these two specimens, these fuckwits would soon understand the meaning of pain, and hopeless).

    Fact that none of the fucking teachers in the school that he attended have been hauled over the coals. These heartless bastards were locking the food away and not one of them ever thought why poor little tyke was stealing food, and eating left over and discarded food; in the rubbish bins, off the floor, and even the garden. These bastards stand culpable of joint enterprise in little Daniel’s murder.

  73. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 6:21 pm

    “O/T
    This country is really good at setting up serious case reviews after a child like this little chap has been murdered, in this case by his own mother and her partner who have been found guilty of murder. They will be sentenced on Friday. Why didn’t the school intervene? Look at the list of his injuries.”
    ______________

    The answer to that, dear Flaming June, is perhaps that a lot of the teachers, civil servants and local government officials appointed by the Labour govt and Labour councils in their attempts to create a body of faithful future Labour voters are bloody useless at their jobs.

  74. Since my last posting on the previous thread about those who really like to throw the “anti-West” accusation around, but are not so hot at trying to justify it, that the best that they could come up with was the demented ramblings of the psychotic Unabomber !! This would be hysterical if it was tongue in cheek, but apparently this is presented as credible argumentation !! Beyond parody, and a true indication of how detached from the rational these people must be.

    I also noticed a debate about the nature of compassion, which is obviously an emotion that Jemand has never experienced, otherwise he/she would not have written the nonsense that was posted, and despite Dreoilin attempts to explain this most natural of human emotions, we can only conclude that unfortunately Jemand is one of those emotionally impaired individuals who are simply incapable of experiencing such basic human emotions.

    Talking of which, how ironic that it was Villager who claimed that compassionate Lefties are really ” bitter losers filled with hate, envy and jealousy”, and yet felt the need & choice to post the mean & petty “Oh What a good girl am I !” comment aimed at F/J-Mary, after she has posted a link to the horrendous case of the murdered child, in contrast to Fedup’s angry & compassionate post in response to this case.

  75. I always thought you were a bloke Villager??

  76. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

    XKeyscore: NSA tool collects ‘nearly everything a user does on the internet’

    • XKeyscore gives ‘widest-reaching’ collection of online data
    • NSA analysts require no prior authorization for searches
    • Sweeps up emails, social media activity and browsing history
    • NSA’s XKeyscore program – read one of the presentations

    Lots of very interesting slides at link

  77. Habby argues:

    “The answer to that, dear Flaming June, is perhaps that a lot of the teachers,
    civil servants and local government officials appointed by the Labour govt and Labour councils in their attempts to create a body of faithful future Labour voters are bloody useless at their jobs.”

    That’s an interesting personification of complex structural problems, albeit indicating a rather narrow village mentality.

    Is there some fundamental policy division between Tory and New Labour on these issues that might otherwise explain this curious phenomenon?

    Most policy decisions are made at EU level. I think about 80%. Then you’ve got corporate, banker and military welfare to consider.

    The rest is crumbs…

  78. Flaming June

    31 Jul, 2013 - 7:09 pm

    Pathetic and infantile responses from the Resident Invigilator and Villager in that order.

    btw if I am a ‘good girl’ (I believe Villager is thinking of this nursery rhyme:
    Little Jack Horner sat in the corner
    Eating his Christmas pie,
    He put in his thumb and pulled out a plum
    And said “What a good boy am I!”)

    he could be Christopher Robin saying his prayers!

    http://ingeb.org/songs/littleby.html

  79. Kinda weird reading that Grauniad NSA link knowing the NSA is watching you watch the NSA watching you watch the NSA watching you…

    Maybe their data banks are narcissists?

  80. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 7:39 pm

    Waay off topic but has anyone seen anything from Snowden on the ‘killshot’?

    Supposedly he made statements relative to government preps for solar flares. I can’t find anything reliable, other than the usual suspects.

    http://countdowntozerotime.com/2013/07/25/edward-snowden-solar-flare-killshot-cataclysm-imminent/

  81. Ben,

    The Snowden kill-shot nonsense originated with Sorcha Faal as far as I can figure. Therefore complete nonsense.

    There are various thread elsewhere about “holes in the sun” right now. Mainly based on an appallingly bad Fox news report about a Coronal Hole.

    Not that any of this means that a large CME definitely wont be on the way (the sun is misbehaving but it is quieter than expected – who knows if it is the calm before the storm – solar physicists are still trying to figure it out) but the Snowden claim appears false.

  82. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 8:05 pm

    Thanks AlcAnon; It seems it’s an old story someone tacked onto Snowden. I keep abreast of sun activity, and sunspots have been unusually scarce and mild. I’m also interested in ISON’s potential demise as it approaches our Sun.

  83. Sofia Kibo Noh

    31 Jul, 2013 - 8:32 pm

    @Flaming.

    Re DU public health disaster.

    Thanks for the WHO petition link on Navalny thread.

    ”The Iraqi people already know that there are spiralling rates of birth defects and miscarriages, they see it every day. The research carried out by the Iraqi Ministry of Health and the World Health Organisation will provide the confirmation required to spur research into the causes and for action to be taken to mitigate this health crisis.

    Children and families continue to suffer the consequences of a war they did not cause, so no more delays, no more politics: the WHO and Iraqi Ministry of Health must release the study data for swift and independent peer-review in an open access journal.”

    Here it is.

    http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/world-health-organisation-and-iraqi-ministry-of-health-act4iraq-and-release-birth-defect-data

  84. Jives

    With more and more sites starting to deploy variants of Diffie=Hellman key-exchange it seems to me that Xkeyscore can’t mine into that data – at least not just by recording the traffic. I will assume “they” have obtained or can obtain private server keys for all the key destinations on the web and so can decrypt most normal https traffic.

    However unless there is a huge breakthrough we don’t know about then it would seem that they can’t easily look inside traffic protected by this additional step. No webservers were using PFS at the time of the 2008 PRISM presentation so it wouldn’t have been an issue.

    Physicsl access to the servers themselves would seem to be required to monitor PFS protected traffic.

  85. Signed and tweeted

  86. Funny thing Jives …
    I always thought Villager was a woman. And then he/she said one day “I’m the kind of guy who …” and I felt obliged to change my mind.

    Although, “guys” (when addressing people) is used in our house to encompass everyone, me included.

    (I’m getting all 9s again in the sum box)

  87. Can someone give a brief explanation of the “Snowden kill-shot nonsense”?
    Thanks

  88. Dreoilin

    A repeat of the Carrington Event or worse.

    Could in theory knock out the power grid across the planet blowing transformers beyond repair and lead to collapse of civilisation. There’s a new spurious claim that we just missed a Carrington flare but it wasn’t anything particular impressive and wouldn’t have done much if it had been earth directed.

    Note we would have many hours warning of such an event on the way and steps can be taken to shutdown grids and isolate equipment in advance. If a really bad shock hit the ACE early warning spacecraft I guess we would see contingency plans go into action.

    A far less powerful geomagnetic storm from an X15 flare knocked out much of the Canadian grid in 1989.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm

    The March 1989 geomagnetic storm was a severe geomagnetic storm that caused the collapse of Hydro-Québec’s electricity transmission system. It occurred during solar cycle 22

  89. Thanks v much, AlcAnon – I get it now.

  90. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 9:32 pm

    Dreoilin; The connection to Snowden relates to his access to FEMA docs. They prepare for regional or national disasters, and theoretically, the advent of CME’s of sufficient strength (EMP) to fry electronic components is the threat. Short of apocalypse, if you wish to protect your cellphone or laptop, there are Faraday Cages to keep you jacked-in. A simple low-cost FC is a 32 gallon galvanized ash can.

  91. Thanks Ben. No idea where I’d get one of those, but I can find out.

  92. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 9:43 pm

    “Pathetic and infantile responses from the Resident Invigilator…” sobs the Frequent Poster, who is too thick to see that I was agreeing with her.

    She wrote, à propos the killing of the little boy :

    “Why didn’t the school intervene? Look at the list of his injuries.

    And my suggestion was that the school teachers (and the social workers weren’t doing their bloody jobs properly.

    And I went on to make the point – perhaps too indirectly for some? – that the rather large increase in jobs in the public sector under Labour obviously didn’t do much to improve and sharpen up service (and probably wasn’t intended to either).

  93. Ben,

    I wonder if he has un-redacted Fukushima information myself.

    He might well have plans on dealing with a major CME but that’s entirely different from a prediction of one about to occur.

    Dreoilin,

    Stick your phone in the microwave oven. Do not switch on!! :-)

  94. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:01 pm

    Fukushima is a boiling cauldron, AlcAnon, as you know. The wall is not holding. Contaminated ground water keeps rising and leaking to the ocean. When will other nations start to become alarmed at TEPCO’s revisionist info and incompetence?

    And yes, I think Snowden could access anything and no one can predict what will happen wrt CME’s, even predictive models should it cascade into the sun.

  95. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:03 pm

    edit; ‘no one can predict what will happen if ISON is pulled into the sun’.

  96. “Note we would have many hours warning of such an event on the way and steps can be taken to shutdown grids and isolate equipment in advance. If a really bad shock hit the ACE early warning spacecraft I guess we would see contingency plans go into action.”

    In Britain the procedure is to open everything up, close every switch on the grid and spread the load, create one huge sink.

    Wouldn’t work in Canada I expect.

  97. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    A microwave oven as a Faraday Cage? Hadn’t heard that.

  98. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:06 pm

    @ Komodo (14h25)

    Well, I’m the fairest of persons : I rebuke when rebukes are deserved and praise when praise is due.

    And therefore I find myself in agreement with you and appreciate your post which read as follows (it is worth reposting):

    “And I wouldn’t expect the conservative press to do anything other than emphasise the fact that Manning, a US citizen and regarding himself solely as such, signed the US military’s version of the Official Secrets Act, was put in a position of trust, and betrayed it comprehensively. Which is the (uncomfortable, maybe) fact. He got the book thrown at him -predictably, since discipline needs to be maintained in anyone’s armed forces – and IMO got a reasonably fair disposal in the circumstances”

    That is a very fair summary of one aspect of this affair.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    By the way and in that connection let me be more precise on what I posted on the previous thread to the effect that I seemed to detect a slightly sour smell to some of the reactions, on that thread, to the verdict of not guilty wrt the charges of aiding the enemy.

    I did not of course mean to imply that the Eminences who posted after the verdict had been announced were unhappy for Mr Manning as a person; I am sure that they were pleased with the verdict as far as Mr Manning as an individual was concerned (although it must also be said that the expressions of relief were few and less enthusiastic than I whould have expected).

    My point was, rather, that that verdict was a disappointment in that they would have been happier to have seen their narrative of the US being the source of all evil, injustice, repression, etc, etc, confirmed at least as far as this affair was concerned. A guilty verdict on aiding the enemy – with the consequent posssibility (theoretical, to be sure) – of a death sentence would have been just the ticket for some of them.

  99. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324354704578633411523424342.html

    Tepco Under Increasing Fire Over Nuclear Accident Site
    Panel Appointed by Firm Criticize Slow Release of Information

    I’d like to say myself how disappointed and distressed I was when I arrived in Japan,” said Barbara Judge, a former chair of the British Atomic Energy Authority and deputy chair of the panel. “To find that communications with respect to the leak problem have been so difficult and so late was very devastating,” she said.

    That’s strong language indeed from Lady Barbara Judge

    ISON is interesting to watch (or not as we can’t see it for the sun right now).

  100. Will do AlcAnon – and no I won’t. ;)

    Meanwhile, have been reading Christian Christensen, professor of journalism at Stockholm University:

    “WikiLeaks and Anonymous respond to status quo journalism”

    ‘Wikileaks and Anonymous challenge global hegemonies of power and the popular narratives that underpin them.’

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/07/201372891029632277.html

  101. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:16 pm

    I’ll be danged. Microwave ovens ARE an FC. It keeps it in, it keeps it out…simple solution, the best one I’ve seen. Thx AA.

  102. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:18 pm

    Well, that’s something anyway, AA. I suspect the Japanese government still has a problem with ‘losing face’, but I think other strong statements made by persons of import are needed.

  103. Ben,

    It’s not perfect and won’t block the very highest frequencies (because of the mesh width in the glass) but it is fairly good. You can try putting your phone in and ringing it. It normally won’t ring (mine doesn’t). If it still has 5 bars and rings then it may be time to get a new microwave before you cook yourself.

  104. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 10:32 pm

    Heh; We use our microwave to sterilize the kitchen sponge.

    ‘Free Radicals’ has a different meaning since the 60′s.

  105. Habby and Komodo argue:

    “And I wouldn’t expect the conservative press to do anything other than emphasise the fact that Manning, a US citizen and regarding himself solely as such, signed the US military’s version of the Official Secrets Act, was put in a position of trust, and betrayed it comprehensively. Which is the (uncomfortable, maybe) fact. He got the book thrown at him -predictably, since discipline needs to be maintained in anyone’s armed forces – and IMO got a reasonably fair disposal in the circumstances”

    Yeah, but what about his duty to expose war crimes. That’s a higher duty established at Nuremberg surely, or did the Nazis just creep back in and change the rules again.

    Marjorie Cohn, makes the srgument:

    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/16731-bradley-mannings-legal-duty-to-expose-war-crimes

  106. Mary, Fedup, yes emotional stuff.. Well said Fedup,

    I can’t believe that i’m shocked at h’s response – in such a discussion the Life is good Mantra – Disgusting. Fucking revolting actually.

    It all reminds me of one of my Poems – if i may

    Ghost Upon Rainbows

    MOUNTAIN MIST SOFTLY
    Drenching Heather And Bracken
    Brimming Brooding Lochs
    Nourishing Streams Rarely Slacken

    LIFE GIVING RAINS
    Of Unanswered Prayers
    Leaves Vast Famine Swathes
    Timeless Millions Without Trace

    THE NAKED EARTH FALLING
    Dust On Grieving Winds Blow
    Whirl Around Young Souls -
    Never Wondered Upon A Rainbow

    THROUGH THE DANCE OF HEAT
    Ghostly Far Eyes Gaze
    Through Deep Dry Veils
    Of Cruel Shimmering Haze

    A MIRAGE OF OCEANS
    Water-Worlds Dream
    Privileged Beings Play
    Where White Yachts Gleam

    THE HEAVENLY EARTH
    Gods On Jet-Skis Splash
    Spray Walls Of Water
    The Visions Crash

    A PARCHED LAND COWERS
    The Mirage Folds And Drifts
    Through Warm Dust
    An Empty Child Sifts

    TO THE EARTH ONCE MORE
    Those Helpless Little Fingers
    For Want Of A Morsel
    A Closer Death Lingers

    BrianFijisan

  107. I see that there is some speculation of Judge Lind having received a promotion, during the course of Bradley Manning’s trial, to the court where appeals will be held.

    Anyone have anything on that?

  108. Herbie, I read that on at least Two separate Sites, i’ll try dig something up on it. it seem to be true though

  109. Cheers, Brian

    Looked myself, but haven’t find anything substantive yet.

    Obviously if true, it’s another dodgy thing to add to an exponentially growing list.

  110. Here this was one Source,

    If Manning is sentenced to more than one year of confinement or punitively discharged, his case is immediately appealed to the Army Court of Criminal Appeals, WHERE LIND WAS RECENTLY PROMOTED, Legal experts I spoke with are eager to read Lind’s detailed findings (expected in the coming weeks) to try to understand how she could have reached the decision that the information released by Manning related to national defense. The charged documents did invite potential embarrassment. A confidential CIA report was titled “Afghanistan: Sustaining West European Support for the NATO-led Mission—Why Counting on Apathy Might Not Be Enough,” and another secret CIA report was titled “What If Foreigners See the United States as an ‘Exporter of
    terrorism’?”

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/31/questions-over-judge-s-rulings-give-hope-to-bradley-manning.html

  111. Sofia Kibo Noh

    31 Jul, 2013 - 11:23 pm

    @Everyone Who Signed.

    DU petition filling fast. Over 1020 signatures already. Thanks All.

    @Dreoilin.

    Lift Eleven. LOL

  112. ‘Sir Walter Scott talked about in “The Lay of the Last Minstrel”’

    Scott was a Tory propaganda merchant. He did for the Highlander what the dime novel did for the Native American, portrayed them as primitive savages to justify their persecution.

    His romanticised historical lies have been used by several countries to brainwash their people into going out and killing and getting killed for their rich elites. Not least America, Mark Twain reckoned the civil war was largely down to him.

    It’s thanks to the likes of Scott Bradley Manning has been on trial for putting humanity before country.

  113. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    31 Jul, 2013 - 11:33 pm

    bad link sofia..

  114. Sofia Kibo Noh

    31 Jul, 2013 - 11:39 pm

  115. Michael Stephenson

    31 Jul, 2013 - 11:57 pm

    @Flaming June

    Craig I see you got a mention in Rusbridger’s Ask Me Anything today! LOL

    http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jf6uc/i_am_alan_rusbridger_editor_in_chief_of_the/cbe1n1n

    Nice to see news of my shenanigans with Rusbridger made it back here.
    Typical evasive BS from Rusbridger though.

  116. Here you go, Herbie – from the Washington Post last week:

    “Schenck said Lind has already been informed that she will take up a new position, as a judge on the U.S. Army Court of Criminal Appeals, when the Manning trial ends. And she said Lind will not be swayed by the politics of the case.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/more-than-bradley-mannings-fate-lies-with-judge-denise-lind-in-case-about-leaking-info/2013/07/24/fb546d14-f496-11e2-aa2e-4088616498b4_story_1.html

  117. Fred, some of what you say is right. Scott was a Tory. So were a lot of poets. Most of them in fact. That does not mean they could not write poetry. Kipling likewise was an establishment figure, and a freemason, as was Scott. The question people should be asking is why to be a successful poet or novelist you often need the help of spurious secret groups. T. S. Eliot was another. Cats, the musical, was based on Eliot’s poem Opossum’s Book of Practical Cats, and this poem was about members of Eliot’s lodge. I thought everybody knew that. But if not, why not? I write, with Dan Rodger, musicals. They have no chance in this playing field which is supposedly ‘on the level’ but in actual fact very biased towards favourites.

    The Lay of the Last Minstrel, we learnt at school, and that poem which I think was Canto 13 was presented as ‘Love of Country’. Scott knew his craft. I was being a bit contentious with the ‘doubly dying’ which quite clearly is aimed at those who are unpatriotic rather than those who are opposed to foreign influence on our government. I love my country. I depise my government. :)

  118. An even ‘despise’ it.

  119. whilst that is a ‘predictable affair’ according to our foul breathed child eater, well, its own offspring if needs must.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon

    But I can’t divulge, otherwise I will have to kill you….
    Now to Manning.
    Unlike William Caley of Charlie company, murdering women and children in My Lai, he was allowed to procriate after seven years and spread his genes, Bradley Manning has been said to face 126 years in prison, for publicising a massive war crime and some tell tale truth about diplomatic two facedness, big deal, the bulk of information was available to 4 million people and ‘over classified’.

    Bradley Manning has served his country more than dragons serve theirs, allegedly, and he should be freed after having served three years in military confinement for showing up some pretty paranoid roid’s in charge of a helicopter, not to speak of Roid command, coming down hard on journo’s.

    Fact is. This was a war crime and nobody is squaring up for it, except the messenger Bradley Manning. Non of these coward pilots have shit for brains or should be in charge of cloud 9 they seem to be sitting on.

  120. ‘And’ even despise it.

    I’m off to bed. Still up because it was Pub Quiz night.

  121. Nevermind. They are children who think they are men. They cannot separate war-games from reality. Some of them might never grow up. But the deaths they caused mean that others will never grow up. America is sick. It is the contents of a vomit bag. I have no adequate words to describe it. It needs to change drastically.

  122. BrianFujisan

    1 Aug, 2013 - 12:39 am

    Sofia. is that the Correct Link ? it wont let me through

  123. Habbabkuk,

    So,after almost 10 months of patronising,stalkerly and twisted behaviour towards Mary you now have the gall to berate her for misinterpreting the one post that you have agreed with her!

    You really are a nasty bit of work Habbabkuk.

    You must need Brasso for that neck of yours.

  124. Fred @ 11.27 pm.

    Excellent post.

  125. Sofia Kibo Noh

    1 Aug, 2013 - 12:58 am

    @Brian
    @Brian.

    Sorry you’re having trouble with the petition link.

    Just checked. It works for me.

    https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/world-health-organisation-and-iraqi-ministry-of-health-act4iraq-and-release-birth-defect-data

    If you still have trouble maybe someone with more computer know-how than me can help.

  126. Ben wrote, “Heh; We use our microwave to sterilize the kitchen sponge.”

    Hmm, not a bad idea. Incidentally, you can use your freezer to rid your pillow of bed-bugs, dust-mites and all kinds of pests. An hour or so in there a fortnight will do the job.

    And may I second the notion – an old u-Wave oven is ideal for shielding your disks for offline/offsite storage protection.

  127. “(I really wish I could be afforded five minutes alone with these two specimens, these fuckwits would soon understand the meaning of pain, and hopeless).”

    Angry? Possibly.
    Compassionate? Hardly.

    What is it that makes some people feel that the proper response to sadistic cruelty is to propose more of it?

    So far as Habba the troll’s comments on the Manning case are concerned please see Chris Floyd
    http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2337-soft-machine-a-bright-ray-of-hope-for-bradley-manning.html

    Which puts the notion that the US military was simply responding in a routine way to Manning’s actions, into some sort of perspective. At last we have a real American hero from the Iraq debacle. And, predictably, nobody wants anything to do with him.

  128. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 5:54 am

    For once, she was correct.

    National archives: William Hague? He’d be embarrassing – when Margaret Thatcher vetoed the boy wonder
    The annual release of secret papers from the National Archive reveals Mrs Thatcher’s scornful response to a plan to put the precocious young Tory in the Treasury
    http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/national-archives-william-hague-hed-be-embarrassing–when-margaret-thatcher-vetoed-the-boy-wonder-8740812.html

    ‘But Mrs Thatcher, who was also advised that Hague’s appointment was largely a fait accompli, responded furiously to the request, scrawling across the memo “No” and then underlining it three times.’

  129. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 6:26 am

    Craig wrote about Gulnara’s links to FC Barcelona.

    ‘Uzbekistan is perhaps the most brutal dictaotorship in the world, but Barcelona receive $10 million a year to promote the Karimov regime and the propaganda “Show club” owned by the President’s daughter.’
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/05/two_aspects_of/

    I don’t know if those links still exist.

    Anyway FC Barcelona are off to Israel on a ‘Peace Tour’ which sounds like some PR initiative.
    http://forward.com/articles/181329/barcelona-soccer-team-heads-to-israel-to-run-clini/

    Have they ever been to Uzbekistan?

    ~~

    Latest on Gulnara
    Uzbekistan: Karimova Plots Life After Diplomacy
    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/67271

  130. @John Goss

    Yes, Scott wasn’t the only one, Kipling was at it too and the rest.

    So what was it that actually made torture respectable? It was a TV program called 24. They are still at it and people are still falling for it.

  131. Macky, 31 Jul, 6.39pm

    “I also noticed a debate about the nature of compassion, which is obviously an
    emotion that Jemand has never experienced, otherwise he/she would not have
    written the nonsense that was posted, and despite Dreoilin attempts to explain this
    most natural of human emotions, we can only conclude that unfortunately Jemand
    is one of those emotionally impaired individuals who are simply incapable of
    experiencing such basic human emotions.”
    . . . .

    A flaky comment from a flaky commentator.

    There was no “debate” about the nature of compassion, just a discussion about the pretensions of people (in particular, lefties) who purport to feel it more than others and the superiority they think that it confers upon them. I also made the observation, in other words, that compassion is of little or no value if it is absent of action. It is only an emotion, after all, and not an expression of commitment or effort to perform a moral duty. For that, I am accused of being incompassionate, of never having experienced compassion. Well, beat me up Scotty!

    And there was the usual misunderstanding that I often observe here, to no effect, that when one makes an unpopular observation, one is falsely accused of endorsing or embodying that thing that is observed – ie conflation of “is” with “ought”.

    But I shouldn’t expect so much from a bunch of ordinary people with limited perception and intelligence who routinely masturbate on this blog, stroking their own egos and other’s who pander to their very primitive need for emotional validation. How very good Macky must feel about himself. I guess that’s what this blog is all about – feeling better about yourself by attacking others.

    Enjoy!

  132. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 8:12 am

    ‘“Pathetic and infantile responses from the Resident Invigilator…” sobs the Frequent Poster, who is too thick to see that I was agreeing with her.’

    Not ‘sobbing’ and not ‘too thick’ to see that the RI’s version of ‘agreement’ was an excuse to turn it into a rant against public servants who unlike their masters, the politicians, often do difficult jobs for not great rates of pay. The RI would not make the grade as a social worker.

    The child’s mother was obviously a plausible liar, describing the weight loss as an ‘eating disorder’ which was being treated. It sounds as if she was under the control of a psychopathic bully but I am not defending her. She could have left and taken the children with her. Daniel’s brother was also beaten.

    ‘Martin Daly and the late Margo Wilson, the two Deans of Modern Evolutionary Psychology, discovered, in their analysis of homicide data from Canada and Detroit, that stepchildren, those who live with a stepparent (usually, a stepfather), are anywhere from 40 to 100 times as likely to be murdered or maimed as those who live with two biological parents in the household.’
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201101/why-are-stepparents-more-likely-kill-their-children

    The natural father knew that the mother was a violent drunk who had threatened to stab him so why didn’t he intervene? Probably weak and a coward. He had the prime responsibility to protect the child he had fathered.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2354868/Daniel-Pelka-Sibling-boy-beaten-death-mother-partner-tells-jury-moment-found.html

  133. flower delivery

    1 Aug, 2013 - 8:19 am

    I wish all government secrets would come out in the open. Every nation is as bad as each other, it’s how they go about their business and how well they hide. Torture does not necessarily have to be physical. Unfortunately some countries still have not developed more modern techniques.

  134. Bradley Manning has served his country more than dragons serve theirs, allegedly

    By about six months as far as I can work out, N. Three years of which time has been in jail, and I readily concede that three years in jail awaiting trial is not acceptable at all. I’m pretty certain it wouldn’t happen in the UK. Although Colchester wasn’t reckoned by its ex-inmates* to be a soft option in my time.

    * not me, but I knew a couple…

  135. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 8:45 am

    @ Flaming June

    “that the RI’s version of ‘agreement’ was an excuse to turn it into a rant against public servants who unlike their masters, the politicians, often do difficult jobs..”
    _____________

    I hardly think that three lines constitute a rant.

    We agreed that various people (the school, the social workers) weren’t up to the job in this particular case.

    And one has the impression that this holds in many areas of public life (including the geniuses of the banking world, lest someone should ask why I don’t mention them…). This high and seemingly generalized level of incompetence is why I incline to the cock-up interpretation of events rather than to the malevolent conspiracy interpretation which appears to find general favour on this blog.

    Back to the former Labour govt : I believe it is fact that a good deal of the employment growth under New Labour was due to hirings in the public sector. And I think it is also a fact – indeed, some of you have posted in this sense – that greater numbers do not seem to have resulted in an appreciable improvement on service and outcomes. But what these hirings did do was to increase the number of people who might reasonably be expected to vote Labour at subsequent elections.

    PS – for what it’s worth, I also happen to think that there are few if any crimes worse than the martyring of innocent, defenceless children as shown by the Daniel Pelka case.

  136. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 8:47 am

    @ Komodo :

    Colchester – was that a reference to the (in)famous glasshouse?

  137. Yeah, but what about his duty to expose war crimes. That’s a higher duty established at Nuremberg surely, or did the Nazis just creep back in and change the rules again.

    Good point. Conceded. However, he is not being punished (at least ostensibly) for exposing the crimes. He is being punished for the formal offence of revealing secret military information. Trouble is, when you’re in the forces, they’ve got you by the balls. And military law is quite separate from the civilian variety.

    It’s no accident that the entire German military apparatus had to be defeated before Nuremberg could happen…

  138. H – Yes.

  139. The US military is a guilty party.

    They failed to mitigate the risks of war crimes and of information security threats, both technical and human.

    They gave a person, who manifested emotional and behavioural problems, broad access to classified material that was easily copied to removable media and transported away from an ostensibly secured site.

    And they failed to provide a protocol by which Manning could discharge a *legal* duty to respond to what appeared, prima facie, to be war crimes committed by the US military.

    The US military also failed to adequately deal with those war crimes, making their efforts to prosecute Manning for exposing them grossly disproportionate when compared to their own malfeasance.

    Basically, Manning had conflicting obligations and was provided with no formal means to properly discharge all of those duties. 

    The US military failed and Manning is a scape goat.

  140. Re. Hague/Thatcher, in which:

    … Cabinet Secretary Robin Butler…wrote: “Promising though William Hague is, it is a bit difficult to see what a 21-year-old will contribute as a special adviser in the Treasury.” The message was then conveyed back across Whitehall to Nigel Lawson in only slightly more diplomatic language. A note of a meeting between Mrs Thatcher and her Chancellor said: “The appointment of someone so young and with so little experience would be an embarrassment to the Government and would be resented by more experienced people in the Conservative Research Department.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/national-archives-william-hague-hed-be-embarrassing–when-margaret-thatcher-vetoed-a-treasury-job-for-the-boy-wonder-8740812.htm

    Those were the days. Compare George Osborne’s meteoric progress-

    After graduating in 1992, Osborne did a few part-time jobs including as a data entry clerk, typing the details of recently deceased into a NHS computer database.[13] He also briefly worked for a week at Selfridges, mainly re-folding towels.[13]

    In 1993, Osborne originally intended to pursue a career in journalism. He was shortlisted for but failed to gain a place on The Times trainee scheme, and instead did freelance work on the Peterborough diary column of The Daily Telegraph. Some time later, an Oxford friend of his, journalist George Bridges, alerted Osborne to a research vacancy at Conservative Central Office.[13]

    Osborne joined the Conservative Research Department in 1994 and became head of its Political Section. One of his first roles was to go to Blackpool and observe the October 1994 Labour Conference.[14]

    Between 1995 and 1997 he worked as special adviser to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food Douglas Hogg (during the BSE crisis)

    Just like that: Head of the CRO’s Political Section. And next year, a spad. Bet Fourteen Pints wishes he’d done a week folding towels…

  141. Komodo, you scaly-backed lizard, I can’t take this. Agree you were talking about the military when you said: “Three years of which time has been in jail, and I readily concede that three years in jail awaiting trial is not acceptable at all. I’m pretty certain it wouldn’t happen in the UK.”

    Babar Ahmad (8 years in UK prison without charge) and Talha Ahsan (6 years in UK prison without charge) are both now in Supermax torture chambers in the US and still haven’t gone to trial. The Yanks are supposed to have evidence of their crimes but their trials have been put off for another six months (now March 2014) and they will probably put them off further unless these obviously innocent prisoners plea bargain. The Yanks are disgusting. Theresa May is disgusting. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is disgusting. They bring shame on my good name.

  142. The US military is a guilty party.

    Sure. Their security was, and probably still is, criminally lousy. But I say again, Manning is subject to military law, not civilian law. By that law he is guilty as charged. Manning signed the terms and conditions when he joined. The terms and conditions are designed with the intention of maintaining discipline and reasonably good order, with preserving the necessary secrecy involved in any kind of military operation, and making sure that the right backs are covered – from a drunken squaddie kicking a civilian in a pub to the general on whose watch a helicopter crew mows down three journalists and assorted brown civilians in a war zone. The army looks after its own.

    Not nice, but necessary.

  143. John, let me be clear, I was talking about the UK military, not the immigration fuckup. Your feet don’t touch in the UK forces. About turn, quick march, guardroom, Colchester, everything at the double and no quarter given.

  144. …sorry, immigration and terrorism fuckup.

  145. I guessed that Komodo. I’m going to quick march out of this discussion because I believe that what is wrong with the military is the inability for lower ranks to question orders especially when they are immoral. War is immoral. The military wage war. Professor Carlo Cipolla summed up my view. Man is still a savage: but the weapons at his disposal are more sophisticated.

  146. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 10:24 am

    How about Ben Griffin and Ft Lt Malcol;m Kendall-Smith, war resisters?

    Ben did not get a jail sentence but Malcolm did.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Griffin_(British_Army_soldier)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Kendall-Smith

    and a long list here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iraq_War_Resisters

  147. As a truth teller goes to jail.

    “…If the UK FCA financial crime supervision team deals with around 100 cases a year of “ML risk &/or serious weaknesses in firms’ AML controls” why have there been so few enforcement actions..?”

    http://rowans-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2013_07_01_archive.html

  148. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 10:51 am

    I often wondered why the term ‘glasshouse’.

    Now I know.

    Glasshouse (British Army)

    A Glasshouse, or The Glasshouse was the term for a military prison in the British Army. The first military prisons were established in 1844. The term Glasshouse originated at the military prison at Aldershot, which had a glazed roof. Over time, the sobriquet came to be applied to all British Army prisons. This prison, called the Detention Barracks, had begun as several barracks in 1856, before being replaced by a single, large building, modelled on civilian prisons, in 1870. This building was destroyed by fire in a riot of 1946.

    Glasshouses gained a reputation for brutality, as depicted in Allan Campbell McLean’s novel, The Glass House, and the Sean Connery film, The Hill. Today, the British Army has only one remaining prison, the Military Corrective Training Centre at Colchester. It has a special unit for convicts who are being transferred to HM Prison Service to serve their sentences, which is for anyone serving a sentence over three months.

    The Glasshouse at Colchester has been described in the ITV Anglia TV-documentary series, “The Real Red Caps”, (2003).

    External links
    Hampshire County Council. Aldershot Military Museum: The Glasshouse – The Aldershot Military Detention Barracks
    West Highland Free Press: Focus on Allan Campbell McLean, author of The Glasshouse
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasshouse_(British_Army)

  149. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 11:01 am

    10 years on

    News Briefing from the state broadcaster on Radio 4 this morning focussed on the ‘outing’ of Dr Kelly. A recording of the war mongering Menzies Campbell was played. There was no mention of the haste of Lord Falconer (B.Liar’s flatmate when they were pupil barristers) in appointing Hutton three hours after Dr Kelly’s body was found. Hutton’s ‘inquiry’ began 10 years ago today. Vile.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037ddzs 11 minutes in.

    ~~
    Falconer and Blair

    He became a flatmate of Tony Blair when they were both young barristers in London in the late 1970s in Wandsworth. They had first met as pupils at rival schools in the 1960s. At school, he dated Amanda Mackenzie Stuart, an ex-girlfriend of Blair’s, immediately after that relationship. While Blair went into politics, Falconer concentrated on his legal career. He practised from Fountain Court Chambers in London, and became a Queen’s Counsel in 1991.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Falconer,_Baron_Falconer_of_Thoroton

  150. Thanks Sofia for the link to Iraq’s congenital defects. Interestingly a doctor engaged with Fallujah General Hospital provided important casualty information between 2004 – 2005.

    CAUTION DISTURBING – login required

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5qgfUjzbj4

    As a Cryptanalysis I appreciate your info AlcAnon
    31 Jul, 2013 – 4:32 pm thank-you

  151. Thanks Someone – I have reposted that report in UKC radio.

  152. Mark Golding,

    Here is another.

    http://japanfocus.org/events/view/185

    A good site for information on many things.

  153. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 12:18 pm

    “Exposing war crimes gets you 130 years. Committing them gets you a library.”
    Gary Younge, Twitter by Guardian columnist, 31st July 2013 re
    Bradley Manning

    ~~~

    No irony. Look at Obama grinning at Bush.
    George Bush library: US presidents gather for dedication
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22303380

  154. John – I do know where you’re coming from, and I applaud the direction. But…the inability for lower ranks to question orders especially when they are immoral.
    That’s specifically built into the system, not because of any systematic disregard of morality, but simply because democracy doesn’t work when someone’s shooting at your unit.
    War is immoral. Yes. By and large.
    The military wage war. But, other than in countries with military juntas (and it comes to the same thing in the end) it is governments which initiate war. The military then does what it has agreed to be paid for. The moral turpitude is the government’s. Most servicemen I’ve known come across as starched Puritans compared with politicians…
    Man is still a savage: but the weapons at his disposal are more sophisticated.
    Never said a truer word. It’s in our DNA to kill rival tribesmonkeys.

  155. Komodo 1 Aug, 2013 – 12:30 pm
    “It’s in our DNA to kill rival tribesmonkeys.”

    Now that’s no lesson to be teaching young sophia. Old lizards should not misrepresent their pessimism as fact.

  156. Komodo, it reads like you are advocating for the correctness of both the charges and convictions against Manning. 

    Were they?

    A conviction does not confer upon itself correctness as demonstrated by the many successful appeals against convictions.

    Furthermore, contracts between an employer and employee are not automatically compliant with the law. And some laws do not automatically prevail, particularly if they do not conform with predominating laws such as the US Constitution.

    What we see with Manning’s conviction is a flagrant exercise in scapegoating of a young man who was placed in a legal Catch 22 about which others have correctly alluded to the Nuhremberg trials. Manning was supplying intelligence products that combat units were acting upon. He was therefore embedded in the military processes that often result in deadly outcomes and in doing so, was legally obligated to respond to perceived war crimes that he became aware of – and he did.

    If Manning failed to respond in the way that he did, could he have been held culpable of concealing a war crime? What would be his defence? “I was ordered to shut up and mind my own business – just followed orders”.

    Catch 22 – damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

  157. Lol, Phil.

    In support of hypothesis H(0), I offer:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/adaptations/Pack_hunter

    Got H(1)?

    Pessimists tend to be realists…it worked for this guy:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouriel_Roubini

  158. “It’s in our DNA to kill rival tribesmonkeys.”

    Evolution is a slow process, we might become intelligent and who knows, perhaps even sane at sometime in the future ?.

  159. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 12:51 pm

    Sky are saying that Edward Snowden has been given papers by the Russian government that allowed him to leave Moscow airport. He has apparently left the airport.

  160. Komodo 1 Aug, 2013 – 12:30 pm
    “But…the inability for lower ranks to question orders especially when they are immoral.
    That’s specifically built into the system, not because of any systematic disregard of morality, but simply because democracy doesn’t work when someone’s shooting at your unit.”

    No it doesn’t work when someones shooting at your unit. But most of a soldiers life is spent not being shot at.

    It is provenly possible to have an army of politically engaged soldiers who are involved in the decision making process and encouraged to take moral positions. The great examples that I know are the anarchist armies in spain and ukraine. Although hotly contested it appears that these armies were also genuinely liberating in a way that most armies are not.

    It is likely these two facts, a democratic decision process within the army and the armys seemingly unique desire to not retain power, are not unrelated.

  161. Jemand:
    Catch 22 – damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Precisely. Catch-22 was about the USAF….

    No, seriously. What happened with Manning was that (a) US security was its usual abysmally lackadaisical self. (b) Someone with absolutely no “need to know” the contents of the material he was handling, got to know the contents and (b) distributed them far and wide, (c)severely compromising the organisation for which he worked. (d) A book of rules exists for the purpose, and it was thrown at him. He was found guilty of actual offences which he had actually committed, and sentenced according to existing guidelines. A miscarriage of justice: one or more senior officers in the security chain should have been summarily shot at dawn, but it doesn’t work that way.

    It occurs to me that what keeps an army functional is the near-certainty in the mind of its rank and file that what the army can do to you if you don’t conform is probably worse than what the enemy can do to you when you do.

    Sooo…

    A conviction does not confer upon itself correctness as demonstrated by the many successful appeals against convictions.

    Precisely the reverse is demonstrated by the many unsuccessful appeals…

    If Manning failed to respond in the way that he did, could he have been held culpable of concealing a war crime? What would be his defence? “I was ordered to shut up and mind my own business – just followed orders”.

    I’d guess that 50% minumum of front-line troops in the US and UK armies have knowledge of war crimes under one definition or another. They happen quite a lot in war. Going to lock the lot up?

    Manning took a risk. He must surely have known that the shit would hit the fan. That’s not a secret. I hope he still thinks it was worth it: who knows, it may be.

  162. The great examples that I know are the anarchist armies in spain and ukraine.

    Both lost.

  163. Komodo
    “Both lost.”

    True. But their eventual defeat does not take away that they had some pretty amazing military success whilst encouraging debate and democracy.

    Indoctrination of soldiers is needed by those whose arguments are immoral. It doesn’t have to be that way.

  164. Sounds great, doesn’t work in practice, Phil. I’ve agreed with John, above, that war is immoral. Therefore any argument for war is immoral (if you like). Therefore all ‘those’ (define please,) requiring a war are permitted to think that indoctrination is acceptable.

    Counter-example for you: the Viet Cong. Indoctrinated and disciplined up to the hilt. Not only got the hearts and minds (and balls) of the population, but also won. What armies are for.

    Consider also a bunch of random lads off the dole queue in Liverpool. Touchy feely doesn’t work if you want them fighting someone else in three months. It’s sheer practicality, morality is an unaffordable luxury.

  165. Thanks Mary – Please spread far and wide…

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7t89yG3NCBNTTVNckF2UTg4WFU/edit

  166. “Sounds great, doesn’t work in practice, Phil.”

    Well you already said that and I gave two examples where it did work. That conflict is ineviatable because competition drives evolution, you know all the dark hobsian stuff, is an ideology.

  167. At bloody last-

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23535524

    Snowden has temporary asylum in Russia. How ironic.

    I think that this may have been the nugget he was concealing, and now he’s released it, he can undertake not to embarrass the Russians by continuing the leakage. It’s bad enough:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

    Apologies for linking to MSM front page here but the implications merit it IMO

  168. it did work

    You already said that, and you’re wrong. They failed to achieve the objective for which they were formed. Nicely or otherwise. Now if you’d said AQ, I’d have had to listen…but they’re indoctrinated.

    :-)

  169. Glenn_uk
    The bugs come from me, so what am I supposed to do with myself? Working for a boss that doesn’t see fit to pay me in a freezing week in February has sterilised my bugs. Blessings in disguise.

    Harrible

    Whatever blows yer skirt up mate. I’m going back to my Qur’an

  170. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 2:35 pm

    I mentioned the FC Barcelona ‘Peace Tour’ to Israel earlier. This is John Hilley on the subject.

    http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/barcelona-clearly-offside-in-visiting.html

  171. That conflict is ineviatable because competition drives evolution, you know all the dark hobsian stuff, is an ideology.

    You mean competition doesn’t drive evolution? Oh, boy…Still, you might accept that dwindling resources will continue to drive competition (and conflict), even if evolution has too little time to respond.

  172. Edward Snowden leaving the airport to a secret location…

    https://twitter.com/57UN/status/362930599880695808/photo/1

  173. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2013 - 3:02 pm

    “Only 15 to 20 percent of the American riflemen in combat during World War II would fire at the enemy. Those who would not fire did not run or hide—in many cases they were willing to risk greater danger to rescue comrades, get ammunition, or run messages. They simply would not fire their weapons at the enemy, even when faced with repeated waves of banzai charges”

    http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/hope_on_the_battlefield

  174. I recently underwent anti-bribery training at my workplace. UK citizens are forbidden to attempt or benefit from bribery anywhere in the world. Perhaps we could do with a similar law on torture, forbidding UK citizens to participate in it or willingly receive information obtained using it.

  175. “They failed to achieve the objective for which they were formed.”

    Yes they did. I just dont think that negates them as examples. Their eventual defeat does not mean they were an ineffective fighting force. They most certainly were not. These anarchist armies scored impressive victories and were a real force.

    They are examples of effective armies where debate was encouraged. That is all I am saying. All the examples of armies not like this in the world do not disappear these examples.

  176. Breaking – huge explosion in Homs – many government soldiers killed:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fff_1375361358

  177. Phil: I don’t doubt that a collection of motivated people with an agreed common purpose can form an effective fighting force even if they are allowed to debate their schedule on a democratic basis. I certainly don’t believe that the Republican Army in Spain was quite as democratic as you allege: command was still hierarchical. And there’s not much evidence that either side was any more moral than the other:

    Available information suggests that there were about 500,000 deaths from all causes during the Spanish Civil War. An estimated 200,000 died from combat-related causes. Of these, 110,000 fought for the Republicans and 90,000 for the Nationalists. This implies that 10 per cent of all soldiers who fought in the war were killed.

    It has been calculated that the Nationalist Army executed 75,000 people in the war whereas the Republican Army accounted for 55,000. These deaths takes into account the murders of members of rival political groups.

    It is estimated that about 5,300 foreign soldiers died while fighting for the Nationalists (4,000 Italians, 300 Germans, 1,000 others). The International Brigades also suffered heavy losses during the war. Approximately 4,900 soldiers died fighting for the Republicans (2,000 Germans, 1,000 French, 900 Americans, 500 British and 500 others).

    Around 10,000 Spanish people were killed in bombing raids. The vast majority of these were victims of the German Condor Legion.

    The economic blockade of Republican controlled areas caused malnutrition in the civilian population. It is believed that this caused the deaths of around 25,000 people. All told, about 3.3 per cent of the Spanish population died during the war with another 7.5 per cent being injured.

    After the war it is believed that the government of General Francisco Franco arranged the executions of 100,000 Republican prisoners. It is estimated that another 35,000 Republicans died in concentration camps in the years that followed the war.

    War is hell. This one would have been better avoided,

  178. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 3:34 pm

    The head of SOCA Sir Ian Allen resigns. Declaration of interests incomplete. Directorship of management consultancy not revealed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23537513

  179. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 3:35 pm

    Huge fireball. It looked about 150 ft in diameter. I would be surprised to learn there were fewer than 200 casualties.

  180. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 3:37 pm

  181. Sofia Kibo Noh

    1 Aug, 2013 - 3:42 pm

    @Mark. 11 09am

    Thanks for the Fallujah clip. Sickening and heartbreaking. It makes one realise that the “Colateral Murder” video is just a tiny drop in an ocean of depravity being committed in our names.

    @Someone. 11 25am

    Thanks. Fukushima, as with the Fallujah, chilling and disgusting.

    Ignoring or denigrating evidence seems to be a consistent plank in the response of the elites and their servants, whether in WHO or corporate media.

    Doesn’t that show how much thee elites fear people really finding them out?

    @Komodo and Phil

    Isn’t the underlying question something along the lines of how do we, as social and military cultures, agree on a mix of these conflicting characteristics?

    At this stage in our social and technical evolution how best do we empower our (mainly) young men to fiercely defend their home-places and communities without tempting them to run the show and go off plundering for generals, royals and other kleptocrats?

    Where, on the spectrum, do we choose? On one end the spontanious networked militia of the Samburu, and Dinka and on the other, the total-obedience-demanding hierarchies of Us and Nazi military. Is a happy medium possible or do we have to accept that those with the biggest bombs and most obedient soldiers will always have the upper hand?

    Have we taken a turn down an evolutionary dead-end where our technical prowess fosters, for the elites, the delusion that they can get us to blast our way to their goals without destroying the ecological matrix where it’s all played out? Or will the horrors of these times be looked back on by our descendents as chapters in humanity’s painful journey out of barbarism?

    Mutiny has been a game-changer many a time from Herodotus’s time to the present.

    If “…only 15 to 20 percent of the American riflemen in combat during World War II would fire at the enemy”(Thanks Technicolour. 3 05pm), then how many can really be counted on to fire on their own people?

    What happens when military-trained individuals “go native”?

    I take heart from what is playing out at present in South America. It seems to me Venezuala for example would have long ago slid back into 1950s os 60s style military dictatorship were it not for the lower ranks of the military taking a stand for their communities before their commanding officers.

    Two films I find really encouraging are Oliver Stone’s “South of the Border” and the Irish documentary “Inside the Coup”.

    If it can happen there……….!

  182. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    What a jumbled up table.
    http://www.soca.gov.uk/about-soca/library/doc_download/528-register-of-interests-aug-2013

    Peter Clarke I assume was the one alongside Ian Blair at the time of 7/7 and Jean Charles Menezes.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Clarke_(police_officer)

  183. “You mean competition doesn’t drive evolution? ”

    No I didn’t say that. I am questioning the orthodoxy that competition is the driver of evolution. We are sold this idea constantly. It is an ideology that declares war and poverty to be natural jungle law.

    However, the science shows that cooperation is also a big driver of evolution.

  184. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 3:54 pm

    Yes. It ia he. Also with Kellogg, Brown and Root of Iraq infamy. formerly a subsidiary of Halliburton. Cheney was once chairman and CEO of Halliburton.

    http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/peter-clarke/a/35/330

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton

    Murky old world isn’t it.

  185. Where, on the spectrum, do we choose?

    Ask me again when the oil runs out and the droughts spread. I don’t think we have the luxury of choice.

    But an interesting and thought-provoking interjection, nonetheless.

  186. Komodo 1 Aug, 2013 – 3:33 pm
    “I certainly don’t believe that the Republican Army in Spain was quite as democratic as you allege”

    Er, I am not talking about the spanish republican army. That was something quite different.

    May I suggest you look into the anarchist militias of spain and the ukranian insurrectionary army. It is fascinating.

  187. “…only 15 to 20 percent of the American riflemen in combat during World War II would fire at the enemy”(Thanks Technicolour. 3 05pm), then how many can really be counted on to fire on their own people?”

    I think there are various military histories which show that only a minority of soldiers actually do most of the killing. Arrows shot away from action. Swords not scratched.

    Unfortunately the military has long learnt this lesson. For example, changing the practise range target from a bull eyse to a human shadow had a huge impact on desensitising soldiers to kill. Now soldiers desensitise with computer games. Part of the training.

    Did you know the columbine boys had hit rates worthy of special forces. How could this be? It is speculated that their years of shoot em up games, which they obsessed about right up to the killings, desensitised them to be able to commit the act of murder.

    So we are in the area of violent films and games. Does violent stimulis encourage violent behaviour? Well the military seems to think so. Science seems to show so. But politics denys it.

  188. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 4:22 pm

    Andrews’s wife Moira is a lawyer and works for G3 which according to Sky News just now were involved in the Liam Fox/Adam Werritty affair, paying for their flights I think I heard the Sky reporter say. Oh what a tangled web we weave…..

    http://www.g3.eu/team_moira_andrews.php

    She is Ex MI6 according to this
    http://international-federation-of-tribal.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/fox-to-leave-with-rebuke-and-17000.html

    Fox and Werritty just won’t lie down. So much jiggery pokery.

  189. Flaming June

    1 Aug, 2013 - 4:39 pm

    G3 (Good Governance Group) are connected to:
    http://www.proven.eu/ – Intelligent Investigations
    http://www.palmerlegaltech.com/ – Computer forensics
    http://www.c5capital.co.uk/team.php – Global investment company headed by CEO Christina McComb ex diplomatic service

  190. Sofia Kibo Noh

    1 Aug, 2013 - 4:57 pm

    @Komodo. 4 05pm

    “Ask me again…..”

    @Phil. 4 21pm

    “Does violent stimulis encourage violent behaviour?”

    Onle 3500 studies come to that conclusion so far. Desensitisation to violence is surely one of our culture’s defining characteristics, along with emphazising competition over co-operation.

    Going by our historical record I’d have to agree with your outlook K, but I don’t rule out some kind of epochal phase-change either, just like what happens in insect colonies when numbers, food supply or environment change beyond critical tipping-points. So many of our variables are totally unprecedented. Probably the only thing we can expect is that the future won’t look like we predict.

    If we have descendents to write history, maybe it will be because they have worked out how to be so powerful without destroying the game altogether, um I think.

    I feel it’s worthwhile committing to the best futures and the most thriving co-operative cultures we can envisage. The fat lady hasn’t sung, yet.

  191. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 5:03 pm

    If you talk to people who have actually killed someone, they say the first is the hardest. After that it gets easier. Desensitizing video games with violent content make that first kill easier, IMO.

  192. Sofia
    “Going by our historical record I’d have to agree with your outlook K”

    The official history of ineviatable war? Other perspectives are available. Conflict happens but the real law of the jungle is cooperation.

    There was an interesting traffic experiment undertaken in germany and holland a few years back. Called shared space, I am unsure of it’s current status. All traffic regulations were removed. All the lines, lights, one ways etc etc. Everything. Of course pessimists predicted chaos. There’ll be fights, jams, deaths. But in every town that tried do you know what happened? The accident count went down, the average journey time went down. Every time. Remarkable. Cooperation even rules the roads.

    And again my latest favourite example of real modern cooperation. I mean how far can cooperation progress? This is layer upon layer. And funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ri5cszSKEg

  193. BrianFujisan

    1 Aug, 2013 - 5:59 pm

    Sofia,
    i got through with that second link, cheers it was at 1,560 signatures

    @Someone, thanks for that Japan link, and interesting post on whether or not we will become intelligent
    That point is actually a major part of the Drake Equation, the Last letter L = the lifetime a communicating Intelligence survives. – or as Carl Sagan wondered – do civilizations destroy themselves soon after developing technology

    It’s also mentioned as one of the factors in the Fermi Paradox – where are they.

    Back to Isreal

    Israel: Eviction of 1,300 Palestinians necessary to save IDF time, money

    The state wants to evict 1,300 Palestinians from their homes in an army firing zone in the West Bank in part because training there saves the Israel Defense Forces time and money, according to the state’s response to two petitions against the mass eviction

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.539057

  194. “The majority of Spain’s bankrupt local councils are to be found along the Mediterranean coast, particularly in Andalusia and Valencia, which were badly hit by the collapse of the construction and property-development market.”

    http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/22/inenglish/1374496783_970511.html

    “Vanishing Treasures: Tomb Raiders Exploit Chaos in Egypt”

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/tomb-raiders-in-egypt-exploit-political-chaos-to-steal-antiquities-a-914058.html

  195. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2013 - 6:03 pm

    You’re v welcome, Sofia. I’m embracing along with you :) Sadly, as Phil points out, they have been working hard to come up with ways round our instinct not to kill each other – but they’re all still attempts to crush our nature. they don’t last.

    Btw has anyone come across these people? Apparently Chomsky wrote the preface to a book about them so they are less obscure than the design of their website would suggest. Too many slogans for me, but still:

    http://www.prout.org

  196. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2013 - 6:09 pm

    Phil, thanks, I loved that experiment

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533248/Is-this-the-end-of-the-road-for-traffic-lights.html

    and its happened in Bristol too – junctions with no lights or signs, and guess what?

    http://www.fitroads.com/TEC-Award-truth-final.pdf

    Trying hard not to think that the presence of signs and orders and controls and threats might be there for another reason, since they don’t seem to make roads actually safer….

  197. BrianFujisan,

    I have through my long life noticed that all too often High IQ = Low common sense.

  198. “Unfortunately the military has long learnt this lesson. For example, changing the practise range target from a bull eyse to a human shadow had a huge impact on desensitising soldiers to kill.”

    That combined with a pavlovian conditioning process yes. The most effective method they learnt from Germany was dehumanisation of the enemy though.

  199. BrianFujisan

    1 Aug, 2013 - 6:37 pm

    Indeed Someone

    wonder why there is such a frenzy going on lately regards other intelligence here n there…

    Former Sen. Mike Gravel (D-Alaska), and 2008 presidential candidate says that there is “an extraterrestrial influence that is investigating our planet.”

    http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/06/03/former-senator-presidential-candidate-an-extraterrestrial-influence-is-investigating-our-planet/

    I see the us are improving on Diplomacy

    US ‘evaluating’ value of summit with Russia after Snowden granted asylum

    http://rt.com/usa/white-house-snowden-asylum-918/

  200. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 6:52 pm

    @ Phil :

    “It is provenly possible to have an army of politically engaged soldiers who are involved in the decision making process and encouraged to take moral positions. The great examples that I know are the anarchist armies in spain and ukraine.”
    ________________

    I’m with Komodo on this one. He was a practitioner and knows what he’s talking about.

    BTW, I’ve never heard of your anarchist army in Ukraine, but if by the Spanish one you refer to the POUM brigade then you should read Orwell (and historians) on that : much motivation, but the internal democracy didn’t do much for its organisation and efficiency.

    The Soviet army functioned for a short while without ranks and that was soon dropped as well.

  201. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 6:56 pm

    Oh, I now see that Phil has already made my point about the P.O.U.M, I didn’t see it before I posted.

  202. @Habbabkuk
    “The Soviet army functioned for a short while without ranks”

    The soviet army? That’s funny. Don’t let a complete lack of grasping the subject interupt you.

  203. Not nice, but necessary.

    Necessarry for whom? and why this selective predilection for a stale establishment and some greedy breeding royals.

    Far from it, Komodo, those few who think they have to be bastards and sacrifice every principle that is human to make this thiefdom work and function for the upper 2 %, are consensual cowards.
    Oh dear we so need the SBS/SAS…. For f….g what? To make out that there is nothing wrong training Al Nusra’s filth, anything you say Gov. yes sire three bags full sire. Full of shite sire, brain dead and dangerous.

    Yes we shoot people abroad, Gibralatar? no problem we do it tomorrow.
    Wars do not happen because bad people want them to occur, they happen because good people have given up caring, a society living on minority scum rule, party politicians rule OK.

    And now to late tea.

  204. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 9:03 pm

    ‘consensual cowards’

    I’m stealing that. Just so you know. :)

  205. “Double-Feature: “Bradley Manning Verdict Convicts Washington” and “Hiding Economic Depression With Spin” — Paul Craig Roberts”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/08/01/double-feature-bradley-manning-verdict-convicts-washington-and-hiding-economic-depression-with-spin-paul-craig-roberts/

  206. Technicolour 1 Aug, 2013 – 6:09 pm
    “and its happened in Bristol too”

    Great. I had no idea shared space was progressing and here on the wild roads of britain. I love that the bristol traffic lights were proven a waste when they broke.

    That traffic regulations cause accidents and slow down traffic is counter intuitive and startling.

  207. “Full of shite sire, brain dead and dangerous.”

    And I’m taking that.

  208. That traffic regulations cause accidents and slow down traffic is counter intuitive and startling.

    I urge anyone interested to read Techniclours links. The implications for our relationship with authority are fascinating.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533248/Is-this-the-end-of-the-road-for-traffic-lights.html

    http://www.fitroads.com/TEC-Award-truth-final.pdf

  209. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Aug, 2013 - 10:07 pm

    “That traffic regulations…”

    I thought the story was about traffic circles which have proven successful in reducing accidents.

    I have observed that when traffic lights are out, the public tends to be more cautious and engaged when crossing intersections. It’s a false sense of security at times when you have the green.

  210. technicolour

    1 Aug, 2013 - 10:29 pm

    Ben, below from the Bristol report (am going to finish reading tomorrow). Phil, well put: fascinating and counter intuitive. I feel for these pedestrians, even though….

    “Once again, we found ourselves writing a report that
    concluded that the disabling of all junction controls re-
    sulted in improvements to traffic capacity and reductions
    in journey time for both vehicles and pedestrian alike,
    and hence a reduction in queues and delays. The road-
    user satisfaction surveys showed, however, that a high
    proportion of pedestrians did not feel as safe without con-
    trol and would prefer green man crossing facilities, even
    though most acknowledged there was less delay. Indeed,
    the idea of the lack of any formal control was particularly
    opposed by local visually impaired groups and some dis-
    abled pedestrians. Nevertheless, during the weeks of the
    trials there were no incidents or accident”

    PS a united Ireland would be perfectly sensible, I think.

  211. “Supporters of the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan have been getting U.S. military contracts, and American officials are citing “due process rights” as a reason not to cancel the agreements, according to an independent agency monitoring spending.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-30/al-qaeda-backers-found-with-u-s-contracts-in-afghanistan.html

    pffffft!

  212. Has 14 pint Billy been drinking the Kool Aid?

    “The UK foreign secretary has called Iran’s foreign minister saying he is open to improve ties.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/iran-blog/2013/jul/31/uk-open-to-improve-iran-ties-hague

  213. “Has 14 pint Billy been drinking the Kool Aid?

    “The UK foreign secretary has called Iran’s foreign minister saying he is open to improve ties.””

    Not necessarily, Mark. The UK befriended Libya…

    Beware billies with fourteen pints in’em, I suppose.

  214. Sofia Kibo Noh

    1 Aug, 2013 - 11:32 pm

    The Awkward Truth, Studiesshow that “road
    users could quite happily optimise the use of road space
    and behave perfectly adequately without any need for
    the modern traffic management paraphernalia
    ; just simple, aesthetic urban design.”

    Maybe we are already in the throes of a phase-change as the old ways cease to deliver and new ones spontaneously emerge. My earlier reference to the changes that occur in insect colonies alluded to that kind of spontaneous phenomenon.

    Who would choose Windows after they have used Linux?

    Who would put their long-term faith in fiat currencies when Bitcoin increasingly demonstrates an alternative?

    And despite all the effort to suppress human co-operativeness and solidarity things like Prout just keep emerging.

    Imagine the difference it would make if our young people were coached in communication, team-dynamics, conflict resolution, non-violent assertiveness and basic trading even once a week.

    Can we do and be all the little things that will make them take root? I think so.

    Will we always have to deal with human greed and violence? Alas, I think so too.

    But I finish this day encouraged.

    Thanks everyone.

  215. Sofia Kibo Noh

    1 Aug, 2013 - 11:35 pm

    @Dad! 6 52pm

    And I thought you knew EVERYTHING!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukraine

  216. Sofia Kibo Noh

    1 Aug, 2013 - 11:45 pm

    “Over the past eight weeks we have seen the Obama administration show no respect for international or domestic law, but in the end the law is winning. I thank the Russian Federation for granting me asylum in accordance with its laws and international obligations.” Edward Snowden. Aug 1st 2013

  217. Mark at 11 pm. Thanks for the link. “Hague also raised the issue of Tehran’s nuclear dossier which is the subject of an international dispute and talks over it is currently at stalemate.”

    Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction were also the subject of an international dispute. You can no more trust Squealer than you can Napoleon.

  218. My G.P. wants to charge me 100 pounds for one job specific medical report, while I am currently applying for work from several companies. Is that fair, when he gets 150 K as a practise manager from the state. Then he fobs me off with steroid creams and statins for my other ailments to save his practise money.

    The best doctor in the new NHS is the one who saves the most money for the government and uses his public service employment to squeeze the governments’ patients for personal cash.

  219. John, we are still getting laughs out of the Steve Bell cartoon that Flaming June noticed:
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2013/jun/10/william-hague-statement-gchq-cartoon

  220. Mark

    As Craig said:
    ‘States are the enemy and we are the people’

  221. on a previous thread, i posted about Israeli firm, Nikuv, being involved in Zimbabwe & other African countries. followup:

    31 July – Businessweek: Lesotho Probes Israel’s Nikuv Over Tender for Identity
    Documents
    Lesotho’s Directorate on Corruption and Economic Offenses said it’s
    investigating an Israeli company, Nikuv International Projects Ltd., over
    allegations it paid bribes to win a 292 million loti ($30 million) contract
    to supply electronic passports. ..
    The investigation is politically motivated and is related to a change in
    government that took place in elections last year, (Nikuv’s) Bekker said
    yesterday…
    The issuing of ordinary passports has been stopped in Lesotho after Nikuv,
    which is also running the Zimbabwe voter registration, was contracted to
    issue e-passports and I.D. documents…
    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-07-31/lesotho-probes-israel-s-nikuv-over-tender-for-identity-documents

    On its website Nikuv says that the company focuses on projects for
    “governmental sectors” and initiated its activities in Africa in 1994 in
    Nigeria. It had “since expanded its activities to Zimbabwe, Zambia, Ghana,
    Botswana and Angola in IT and additional areas like agriculture and
    security”….
    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-12-00-zim-voters-roll-in-hands-of-suspect-israeli-company

  222. BrianFujisan

    2 Aug, 2013 - 2:18 am

    SO MUCH For The NSA “only collecting ‘metadata’

    A professor writer reportedly received a visit from law enforcement agents after she looked up information on pressure cookers via Google and her husband looked up backpacks.

    However, since the original story was published about the incident, some details have come into question.

    Still, if Michele Catalano’s story is true, it sheds light on how the continuing and expanding use of the PRISM program run by the National Security Agency (NSA), along with other surveillance programs, is manifesting itself in the lives of American

    More at EndtheLie.com – http://EndtheLie.com/2013/08/01/writer-reportedly-gets-a-visit-from-police-over-google-searches-for-backpacks-and-pressure-cookers/#ixzz2allhWOrL

    ALSO –

    Senate Commits High Treason:

    “Classifies” votes to HIDE FUNDING FOR SYRIAN REBELS

    “It’s like a pandemic in Washington, D.C., this idea that ‘I don’t have to say anything, I don’t have to justify anything, because I can say it’s secret,’” said Jim Harper, director of information policy studies at the Cato Institute, a Washington-based libertarian think tank.

    In our increasingly Orwellian country, it’s getting hard to tell the difference between parody and reality. But this is very real. And Harper is correct: it is a pandemic.

    Everything is secret in Washington. Who are we at war with? That’s classified. Who is the government spying on? That’s classified. Are we bombing multiple countries on a regular basis with remote-controlled airplanes? That’s classified. Which senators voted for an incredibly unpopular and dangerous plan to give weapons to unaccountable Syrian militias as they fight in a chaotic civil war that should have nothing to do with us? None of your god damned business.

    http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/2013/08/01/senate-commits-high-treason-classifies-votes-to-hide-funding-for-syrian-rebels/

  223. “London Assembly demands to know why housing cash was diverted from poorest”

    http://www.housingexcellence.co.uk/news/london-assembly-demands-know-why-housing-cash-was-diverted-poorest

  224. Phil,

    Your rejection of and antipathy towards “competition” is wholly political. Competition is an observable fact of life, as is cooperation, and both are not mutually exclusive.

    Competition drives a positive selection process and cooperation drives a synergistic process. Both produce positive outcomes and are necessary to optimize the survival prospects of both individual species and symbiotic communities of different species.

    Put simply, competition drives improvement and cooperation drives performance.
    . . . .

    Regarding road traffic experiments where road rules and/or traffic controls are removed, it sure seems to be working out well in Asia and Africa.

    Recommend sorting in descending order of fatalities per 100K vehicles - 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

  225. “It’s like a pandemic in Washington, D.C., this idea that ‘I don’t have to say anything, I don’t have to justify anything, because I can say it’s secret,’” said Jim Harper, director of information policy studies at the Cato Institute, a Washington-based libertarian think tank.

    Lord save us. I’m agreeing with a director at the Cato institute. I didn’t think it was possible.

    Personally, I am the view that Obama should be impeached, no question. Jim probably agrees. The world has gone insane.

  226. I am not at all sure that Eire would be enthusiastic about union with the North because of the expense, unless of course the UK agreed to pay for it (fat chance). I wonder whether people like Craig who are not resident in Scotland would even be allowed to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence. The best thing may be to let things stay as they are.

  227. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 7:25 am

    @ Jemand :

    “Recommend sorting in descending order of fatalities per 100K vehicles –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
    _______________

    Nice post; nothing like a few facts to put to rest the wilder notions cooked up by some. :)

    BTW, I trust you noticed the shocking discrepancy between the figure for Israel (3,7) and that for the Palestinian territories (5,6), a difference of around 50%? Surely another example of insufferable discrimination and oppression?

    Have a good day, everyone, and drive safely!

  228. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 7:28 am

    @ Abe Rene

    “I wonder whether people like Craig who are not resident in Scotland would even be allowed to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence.”
    ______________

    I seem to recall that I was wondering some time ago who would be entitled to vote in that referendum and asking whether any of the prolific posters and pro-independentists knew what SNP policies on that were.

    Answers came there none, of course (inconvenient question, I suppose).

  229. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 7:55 am

    We are not all in ‘it’ together.

    Half Of UK Nation ‘Living On The Edge’

    More than half of all British adults are finding it hard to make ends meet and are “living for now”, a major report says.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1123485/half-of-uk-nation-living-on-the-edge

  230. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 7:59 am

    Racist, fascist ‘Great’ Britain.

    The new stop-and-search – spot checks near stations to hunt for illegal immigrants
    Onlookers described their shock at the operations, with one member of the public saying it was akin to ‘Nazi Germany’
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-the-new-stopandsearch–spot-checks-near-stations-to-hunt-for-illegal-immigrants-8742754.html

    ‘The Labour MP Barry Gardiner has now written to the Home Secretary, Theresa May, demanding an investigation into the checks which he said violated “fundamental freedoms”. The raids come just a few months after Ms May took direct responsibility for immigration from the disbanded UK Border Agency.

    “We do not yet live in a society where the police or any other officers of the law are entitled to detain people without reasonable justification and demand their papers,” Mr Gardiner wrote. “The actions of your department would however appear to be hastening us in that direction.”

    Witnesses who saw the operations in London claimed the officers stopped only non-white individuals, and in Kensal Green said that when questioned, the immigration officials became aggressive.’

  231. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 8:10 am

    http://scriptonitedaily.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/ukba3.jpg

    NEWSFLASH: UK Border Agency ID Checking People of Colour At Train Stations

    UKBA3

    Twitter is full of reports of the UK Border Agency stopping and performing random ID checks on people of colour in South East train stations today.

    The above picture (click to enlarge) was taken by twitter user @SaveKRLibrary at Kensal Tube station in the capital this morning. There have been so far unconfirmed reports coming in from other stations.

    The following account was reported to the Kilburn Times:

    “…according to several witnesses the officers were aggressive, intimidating and were specifically targeting non-white individuals.

    Kensal Rise resident Phil O’Shea told the Times he was threatened with arrest when he asked what was going on.

    He said: “I thought the behaviour of the immigration officers was heavy-handed and frightening. They appeared to be stopping and questioning every non-white person, many of whom were clearly ordinary Kensal Green residents going to work.

    “When I queried what was going on I was threatened with arrest for obstruction and was told to ‘crack on’.

    “I asked that officer for his name but he refused to give it and said I could read his number on his shoulder but I couldn’t see a number there.”

    Matthew Kelcher, who lives in All Souls Avenue, also witnessed the operation, he said: “They said they were doing random checks but a lot of people who use that station are tourists so I don’t know what message that sounds out to the world.

    “They seemed to be picking out foreign people in an intimidating situation.

    “Kensal Green is a diverse community which is settled and they (the government) are going about it on the wrong approach.

    “This is more about publicity than dealing about the issue.”

    This is not the first time UKBA have made such strident public appearances, but the timing of the move seems part of a conspicuous ‘zero tolerance’ pantomime, as the political parties compete in a race to the bottom on immigration policy.

    This week, the #RacistVan is touring London streets delivering the government’s new ‘Go Home’ campaign against illegal immigrants. The van is tells illegal immigrants to go home and has received a wave of criticism from the twittersphere, ably coordinated by @PukkahPunjabi. The government plans to roll the #RacistVan out nationwide.

    The following picture is the actual #RacistVan

    /..
    http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/newsflash-uk-border-agency-id-checking-people-of-colour-at-train-stations/

  232. Sofia Kibo Noh

    2 Aug, 2013 - 8:25 am

    Before I get taken to task for the naïve optimism of my last “co-operative/competitive” post (11 32pm yesterday) I’d better elaborate a bit.

    I used the examples of Linux and Bitcion because both are examples of co-operatiive approaches making something better than what is on offer within the old competitive paradigm. In both cases cutting edge solutions have been created by networks of people inspired by a co-operative ethos.

    The undisputable fact about Linux is that it works better than Windows, using less computing power.

    It’s early days to be claiming too much about Bitcion but I have a sense that we should watch that space. A currency that has already been traded to the value of over a billion dollars and which cannot easily be parasitised by bankers maybe shows that humanity can do with the tools of exchange something akin to what we have already done with the tools of production information technology and communication.

    Both come from an ethos which recognises that, in some areas at least ,we can win with each other more than we can win against each other. Of course there will always be areas where we will have to be fierce and assertive. Rule of law cannot co-exist with rule by the lawless. Shock and Awe (aka Blitzkrieg) can never partner peaceful diplomacy. A culture of unbridled extraction and consumption cannot be called sustainable however many PR campaigns are run.

    Of course there is plenty of room for competition to make a better currency, operating system or whatever. I suppose the crucial point is whether competition is with or against.

    How we nurture cultures of co-operation is up to us, but we all make thousands of small decisions daily, which cascade into our shared reality.

    And even when naked force wins the battle something surprising can grow into the space created. I might be stretching my history here, but from my take on it, although at the Battle of Thermopylae the Spartans put an end to the advance Persian dominated old world order, it was the more “open source” style Athenian culture that was eventually adopted in the mediterranean lands.

  233. Sofia Kibo Noh

    2 Aug, 2013 - 8:37 am

    @Flaming. 8 10am

    Re putting darkies in their place.

    What do these people say to their families when they get home after a days work? I bet not much.

    Proud to be British?

  234. Anyone resident in Scotland is entitled to vote in the referendum.

  235. @ BrianFujisan 2 Aug, 2013 – 2:18 am
    “SO MUCH For The NSA “only collecting ‘metadata’”

    “Do you own a pressure cooker? My husband said no, but we have a rice cooker. Can you make a bomb with that? My husband said no, my wife uses it to make quinoa. What the hell is quinoa, they asked. The joint terrorism task force did not press Catalano’s husband on the dilemma facing liberals over whether quinoa consumption is ethically sound – many Bolivians can no longer afford their staple food now everyone in Brooklyn is eating it.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker

    I apologize to any of you indefinitely incarcerated without charges or perhaps prematurely vaporized because of my prior lame comment here regarding a conspiracy to import punnets. Shoulda known agencies are humourless.

    “In the mid-year review for 2010/11, GCHQ proclaimed: “Our partners have felt the impact of our capability too, with NSA in particular, delighted by our unique contributions against the Times Square and Detroit bombers.”"
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/aug/01/gchq-spy-agency-nsa-edward-snowden#part-four

    Are there parallel universes? Both those disasters were barely averted only by the perpetrators defective equipment, not by anything the agencies did. Or are they congratulating themselves on gathering evidence post-fizzle?

  236. “Anyone resident in Scotland is entitled to vote in the referendum.”

    Probably, but strictly speaking we don’t know until the franchise is defined in a (Scottish) Government White Paper expected in November. Whatever, it will be different from the franchise at other elections if only by the inclusion of 16-year-olds, so we have no database of voters. Expect voter registration to be an issue.

  237. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 9:22 am

    @ Vronsky

    “Anyone resident in Scotland is entitled to vote in the referendum.”
    _______________

    Yes, that’s probably correct. But I think you’re more than right when you say that voter registration will be an issue. How about a Scot who happens to be resident (perhaps temporarily, for work reasons) in England at the time of registration/the referendum? Should, say, a Pole who might be working and resident in Scotland at that time, but whose stay may well be for a couple of years only, be eligible to vote? The issue of what you might call “Scottish by direct descent”, ie, one or both parents (not grandparents or further back) born in Scotland but their children were born “abroad” (England)?
    I look forward with keen interest to the November White Paper.

  238. If you are on the electoral roll, you can vote. It has nothing to do with ethnicity.
    I may have been born in London, but i can’t vote for the mayor if i don’t live there.

  239. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 9:34 am

    Sky seem to be enjoying this. Note the words ‘thrown out’. Nice.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1123466/illegal-immigration-raids-140-arrested

    ~~

    Did you notice the image of the handcuff on the moving billboard?

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02629/Immigrant-billboar_2629522b.jpg

  240. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 9:47 am

    Promogroup – the company that trails the immigrant poster around (wasting fossil fuel the while) also have Promobikes, Promoscooters and Promovans! In fact any Promo you can think of. What Agent Cameron and his cohort would approvingly call ‘entrepreneurship’.
    http://www.promobikes.co.uk/

    OK to advertise American junk food though.

    http://www.promobikes.co.uk/sliderimgs/12.jpg

  241. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 9:57 am

    re spot checks for illegal immigrants

    Just a few comments :

    1/. Can I assume that posters here agree that illegal immigration (I am talking about illegal economic immigration and not asylum seekers or refugees as defined by international conventions) is not a welcome phenomenon (for a variety of reasons, exploitation of the people concerned not being the least)?

    2/. Can I assume that posters agree that the govt is entitled to do everything possible to combat the phenomenon and that this should include measures and actions to identify persons who have somehow gained entry? And that govt policy should not take the form of saying the equivalent of “we will do the utmost to stop illegal economic immigration at the point of entry but if you happen to overcome that hurdle then we will leave you in peace” (ie, pass GO and collect your £200)?

    3/. Can I assume that actions and measures undertaken by the public authorities charged with upholding the law should, to the extent possible, be efficient and that this will inevitably involve, where appropriate, a measure of targeting?
    (an example from a different area would be stopping motorists for a breathalyser)

    4/. Do posters here agree with a couple of the comments reported above : for example, that these operations are akin to life in “Nazi Germany” or that being asked to identify oneself constitutes an erosion of individual liberties and freedoms, given that identification is required in most other areas of modern life in a complex state (driving licences, state benefits, bank accounts, taking up employment..etc)?

    5/. Do posters consider that action against illegal economic immigration is an electioneering ploy, and if so, (1) does it matter (given that the matter is apparently one of some public concern, and (2) in which way it is more of an electioneering ploy than general economic policy, the NHS, public services in general…etc (also, apparently – and legitimately – matters of public concern?

    6/. Finally, on a more practical level, what other measures would posters like to see the govt undertake in replacement of the measures being criticised, in order to counter illegal economic immigration wrt to illegal immigrants already inside the UK?

  242. The above poster obviously hates the poor and immigrants and wants to abolish compassion.

  243. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 10:11 am

    “nothing like a few facts to put to rest the wilder notions cooked up by some” – dear Habbakuk, did you actually *read* the reports? Or even an extract from the reports? One was from the Telegraph, you know. Jemand: same questions. And what driving in quite different conditions – roads, weather etc – has to do with reports of how the system here works, I do not know.

    Re your above post: there’s a general and visceral sense of shock which you clearly don’t share.

  244. Very good talk by Craig in Belfast. Well attended – especially for the very first day of the festival. Interesting questions and discussion afterwards. I thought the whole thing went very well. (Craig’s sense of humour much appreciated, as ever.)

    On the way back to our hotel, coming down the Falls Road, we had an egg thrown at our car. It hit the windscreen on the driver’s side, with a loud ‘Crack’. Totally unexpected. It was probably some youngsters fooling around.

    Anyway, after a huge breakfast, we’re heading back south.

  245. @Jemand; “just a discussion about the pretensions of people (in particular, lefties) who purport to feel it more than others and the superiority they think that it confers upon them”

    Not a rather pointless exercise in second guessing & making rather snide assumptions ?

    “compassion is of little or no value if it is absent of action. It is only an emotion, after all, and not an expression of commitment or effort to perform a moral duty”

    Compassion is the natural empathy that we feel towards others when they are suffering, and there is no choice about it, you either feel it automatically or you are emotionally impaired; for some people who are sensitive enough to the plight of others, it is almost like a curse, as it is not a nice feeling to feel the suffering of others. Unlike the chicken & egg analogy, compassion is the root cause of any action and/or moral duty, and it is definately not something that somebody purposely feels in order to get high on an ego superiority trip (!), so instead of making assumptions about others who you only believe “purport” to care about the plight of others, you would be making much better sense if you could provide argumentation as to why you believe they are being insincere.

  246. The “general and visceral sense of shock” probably extends no further than the Twitter mob of middle-class lefties that can always be relied upon to kick up a storm over such things. The mob can’t wait for something like the “racist van” to come along so they can take to Twitter, brimming with self-righteousness, and chant their “Racist Tory scum” / “Fuck off back to Eton” slogans whilst patting each other on the back for their latest efforts with Photoshop. The reality is that the “racist van” is just a gimmick and a sop to the voters; most illegal immigrants probably couldn’t even read it anyway, and would likely not give a toss even if they could.

  247. Nevermind: I was absolutely NOT claiming the royals and the “stale establishment” were necessary or desirable. If bad people don’t make wars, how do you rate GW Bush vis-a-vis Iraq? Good person? Good advisors? It wasn’t an apathetic America that allowed that to happen. It was a gung-ho America which encouraged it to happen. An America (arguably) misinformed by bad people. Sorry, but I don’t buy your thesis.

    Necessary for whom? Ask rather necessary for what. For some protection of our national interest and claim to autonomy against other national interests and claims. Granted, this is overhyped by our “leaders”, but it is still a valid requirement.

    Yes, the Gibraltar killings were shameful. I’m no fan of Rumsfeld, but stuff happens. The IRA weren’t exactly models of restraint either.

    Sorry, H. I wasn’t a practitioner, it would be dishonest of me to let that go. I managed five years without being within 100 miles of a shot fired in anger, and I’m very happy about that. (I did some fairly arduous stuff though.)

  248. Anon: Fuck off back to Eton.

  249. Good on you, K. For Queen and Country!

  250. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:10 am

    ‘“general and visceral sense of shock” probably extends no further than the Twitter mob of middle-class lefties’

    this has to have been said by one of the middle class bitterati. ‘probably’. i mean, cleaners and careworkers don’t give two hoots about fairness, decency, humanity, politeness, or their slightly tanned neighbours, the oiks*

    *sarcasm

  251. For Queen and Country!

    No. To get away from my bloody awful parents…Mail readers.

  252. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:34 am

    More on the necessity to pursue British war criminals.

    http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/136051

  253. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:41 am

    Racist Australia. I see we used the services of the visa issuing company VFS until it was discovered that the confidentiality of applicants was breached.

    Australian Immigration – the Snowden Link?

    by Murray Hunter / August 1st, 2013

    With the Australian Department of Immigration and Citizenship already under siege over the treatment of refugees in detention camps, deaths in custody, and the abandonment of the principals of the UN Convention on refugees in regards to boat people, another disturbing aspect of the department’s handling of its portfolio is emerging with the recent appointment of VFS Global as the sole processing partner of visa applications for entry into Australia.

    This appointment process of VFS appears to have been undertaken very quietly without the usual press releases accompanying a major policy decision. The lack of transparency in this agreement is dubious at best, where the department selected a single company as a service delivery partner to handle visa applications and the taking of biometric data from applicants on its behalf, which has effectively created a monopoly for VFS Global

    [..]

    The VFS-Snowden Link?

    The London based VFS Global is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Kuoni Group, a public-listed company headquartered in Zurich, Switzerland. What makes VFS interesting is that the chairman of the parent company, Henning Boysen was closely involved with Booz, Allan & Hamilton in the area of predictive intelligence, the same company that Edward Snowden worked for. Like Booz, Allan & Hamilton, WFS Global almost solely acts as a contractor for Government in data collection services. Two other directors were previously involved with Boston Consulting Group which has long been suspected of having close links with the US intelligence community.
    [..]

    /..
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/08/australian-immigration-the-snowden-link/

    Nice stuff.

  254. K – I’d still have loved my parents had they been Morning Star readers.

    Technicolour – if you have dropped the capitals and punctuation to try and give the impression that you are down with the plebs, then it’s not working!

  255. “British war criminals.”
    “Racist Australia.”

    Obviously you have to have a certain few characteristcs to be deemed a war criminal or racist by the Murrayistas!

  256. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:52 am

    Wow. A humanist speaks.

    ‘In a television interview later, Kerry said of the drone strikes, “I think the program will end as we have eliminated most of the threat and continue to eliminate it.”

    “I think the president has a very real timeline and we hope it’s going to be very, very soon,” he told Pakistan Television, when asked whether the U.S. had a timetable for ending drone strikes aimed at militants in Pakistan.’

    Kerry hopes Pakistan drone strikes to end ‘very soon’
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/01/us-usa-pakistan-kerry-idUSBRE97015B20130801

  257. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:53 am

    curses, anon, you have seen through my cunning disguise but I can dissemble no longer. No more will the Duc de Richelieu hide in the shadows. Doff, peasants, doff, to your master!

    (the laziness of RSI, actually, but good try, Anon, as we all kno the plebs cant spel, innit)

  258. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 12:01 pm

    What we always knew. We are the poodle of the US.

    Snowden Leak: GCHQ ‘Paid £100m’ By US

    Fears about the relationship between US and UK spy agencies are raised in the latest documents from whistleblower Edward Snowden.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1123562/snowden-leak-gchq-paid-100m-by-us

  259. “If you are on the electoral roll you can vote”

    Actually, that that is *not* so was my point. My American wife (for example) is a US citizen and although a long term resident is not eligible to vote in British elections. However she expects to be able to vote in the referendum. She is a very active campaigner for a ‘Yes’ vote – in general I notice that non-Scots find it easier to recognise the referendum question as a simple one with an obvious answer.

    Many people eligible to vote in 2014 will never have been on the electoral roll before – non-EU citizens and 16 year olds (EU citizens already have the UK franchise, I am told). It remains to be seen if British citizens who avoided electoral registration in order to evade the poll tax will allow their existence to be recorded now. I very much doubt it – having done a lot of door-to-door canvassing I notice that some people value their invisibility.

  260. K – I’d still have loved my parents had they been Morning Star readers.

    Maybe they were lovable. Pity they didn’t pass it on.

  261. “No more will the Duc de Richelieu hide in the shadows”

    More like just another self-hating, middle-class loser with an axe to grind!

    K – Hang on a minute – wasn’t it you describing your parents as bloody awful because of their choice of newspaper?

    And do tell, was it something that happened in the military or a lack of love from your parents that led you to become the most dangerous thorn in the side of the British Establishment?

  262. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 12:39 pm

    30 years minimum in jail for each of Daniel Pelka’s murderers.

  263. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 12:44 pm

    “More like just another self-hating, middle-class loser with an axe to grind!” – don’t be too hard on yourself, please. I think this obsession with class is peculiar: where does it come from?

  264. Two mentions constitutes an obsession?

  265. From the Daily Mail, Technicolour. Along with all the rest of it.

    Lovably – K

  266. Harrible

    You remember surely back in the days of the Captivity, and you were taking in food to Daniel in his lions’ den and we were a bedraggled crowd of oppressed slaves? And some people said we should get out of this mess through practising our religion and some people said through lying, spying and political manipulation? And the political people got on fine and became freemen, selling their kinsmen to the authorities and the proper Muslims got targeted, droned/ fed to lions?

    yeh? The political people got military contracts for delivering essentials and so-called law-keeping. The ordinary people who saw through the politics became refugees. It doesn’t matter whether it is escape from a totally corrupt post-soviet Eastern European country or from a Zionist progrom to un-pick Islam in Pakistan, the people who come to safety are not leaving because of economic reasons. They come because they have been stitched up by the political opportunists from their own community who have played the Empire’s political game against their own people. (In Afghanistan, using the good name of the Taliban).

    In Syria or any other Zio-torn country, (Zio including the ravages of Communism as well as the ravages of the War on Islam,) it is only a tiny segment of the society that is supported by Empire to subdue the rest. There are many resistance groups emerging in Syria who protect their communities from Zio-political Islam and ordinary criminality. The Great Game of oppressing Islam and removing Muslim assets has been transformed by the internet into a miserable game of conkers played by thieves and brigands. And trolls.

    Why do you resent the instinct for survival and freedom amongst refugees and why do you support our own UK state/NWO/Zio oppression who are starting a new civil war in Egypt in order to gain the water resources that feed the Nile for Israel? You are a truly Harrible specimin of hasbara trollery. Harrible harrible harrible.

  267. And do tell, was it something that happened in the military or a lack of love from your parents that led you to become the most dangerous thorn in the side of the British Establishment?

    You sound/read like a comic stereotype lefty social worker, there, Anon. There is hope for you yet. No. It may have had something to do with being suddenly transplanted from an aspirant bourgeois background , as an Other Rank, to the world as most people experience it, though.

  268. p.s.
    Of course there will always be a segment of refugee society that is the lying, spying, Mafia political, wishing to come for economic reasons, and who start to climb the slippery ladder of politics by working for MI5/6 and our own UK intelligence agencies. These scum also need to be reminded that they are not welcome in a community that is trying to escape from political oppression. This is the real problem of becoming a refugee – that the political potato-tomato-stall merchants who sold their own people at home, start to sell their own community in this country. Or worse, start selling us English Muslims to the Queen.

  269. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 1:21 pm

    Seriously, Anon:

    “The reality is that the “racist van” is just a gimmick and a sop to the voters”

    - well, yes, except it’s slightly more sinister than that, isn’t it? a ‘sop’ would be distributing free half pints. Instead, as so many people including this nice young man point out, it’s couched in the language of hate; and designed to stir up fear and resentment among the people who can read it:

    George the Poet
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0wY5suww80

    Nor, as part of the same climate, do the testimonies of the people who saw the operations at kensal rise (thanks for the link, mary) sound as though they’re responding to a ‘gimmick’. They sound as though they’re responding to a frightening and aggressive situation.

    most illegal immigrants probably couldn’t even read it anyway, and would likely not give a toss even if they could.

  270. I thought this guy was interesting. Alternative universe explored….

    http://www.peterfrase.com/2010/12/anti-star-trek-a-theory-of-posterity/

  271. Home Office is now a tool for stirring up racial tension

    Over the last few weeks we’ve seen some very visible signs of the Government’s “hostile environment” crusade. There have been vans out on the streets with threatening slogans and, reportedly, non-white people being visibly stopped and searched.
    The Home Office is responsible for community cohesion. Yet we are increasingly seeing what appears to be hostility towards non-white immigration, which will do nothing but incite racial tensions and divisions …

    Hitler had a bum rap by the looks of it. He is perhaps much misunderstood, he should have only wished to provide a “hostile environment” to the illegal immigrants, end the torrents of the hoards of “immigrants swamping” Germany, and really was a nice guy all around after all. Although he was a bit a misguided and shot a few bullets in the wrong direction and at the City folk here in London.

    What in hades has happened to this country?

    The fascists are no longer content to remaining as cryptofascists and are now openly and in your face declaring their fascism and are getting away with it too.

    Is this aggressive posture of the Home Office born out of the diabetes of the Theresa of May?

  272. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 1:37 pm

  273. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 1:46 pm

    This, though:

    “Police on trains in Germany used to check people of color for no other reason than they were people of color. Suprisingly the German traveling public started protesting when they saw this happening. Shouting at them, taking pictures, going up to then and saying “check me first”. Amasing. – the police seem to have dropped the tactic” (comment on Mary’s link)

  274. What’s this all about then?

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/01/politics/embassies-close/index.html

    Washington (CNN) — [Breaking news alert, 8:41 a.m. ET]

    Al Qaeda is linked to a terror threat that has prompted the State Department to direct its embassies in key Middle East nations, including Egypt and Israel, to close Sunday, U.S. Rep. Ed Royce, R-California, told CNN’s “New Day” Friday. “It’s my understanding that it is al Qaeda linked, alright, and the threat emanates in the Middle East and in Central Asia.”

    [Previously published story, 8:56 p.m. ET]

    A terror threat prompted the State Department on Thursday to direct its embassies in key Middle East nations, including Egypt and Israel, to close on Sunday with the possibility they could remain idle longer.

  275. doug scorgie

    2 Aug, 2013 - 2:08 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    2 Aug, 2013 – 7:28 am

    “I seem to recall that I was wondering some time ago who would be entitled to vote in that referendum and asking whether any of the prolific posters and pro-independentists knew what SNP policies on that were.”
    “Answers came there none, of course (inconvenient question, I suppose).”

    Not an inconvenient question Habbabkuk, just a stupid one!

    To vote on Scottish independence one must reside in Scotland and be registered to vote there.

    I know it’s difficult but keep running it through your mind and eventually it will click.

  276. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 2:08 pm

    I cannot see the downtrodden (though they don’t realize that they are) indigenous British standing up like that Technicolour. All you hear at bus queues and on public transport is the talk of ‘too many immigrants’ especially when attempting to discuss the causes of the bank crash.

    Milton Mayer They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945

    [..]This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.[..]

    http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

  277. Hmm, Sunday is Obama’s 52nd birthday coincidentally or otherwise.

    And closing even the Israeli embassy because of a supposed terror threat??

    Wonder if any other countries will follow the US lead and will the UK announce any embassy closures?

  278. http://israel.usembassy.gov/wm08012013.html

    Emergency Message for U.S. Citizens August 1, 2013

    Emergency Message for U.S. Citizens

    The Department of State has instructed certain U.S. Embassies and Consulates to remain closed or to suspend operations on Sunday, August 4. The Department has been apprised of information that, out of an abundance of caution and care for our employees and others who may be visiting our installations, indicates we should institute these precautionary steps. It is possible we may have additional days of closings as well, depending on our analysis.

  279. Fanning the flames of immigration anxiety is a component part of agent Cameron’s ‘Big Society’ – I call it the ‘Big Society Gap’ as correctly identified by think tank ‘Civil Exchange’ as having zero common vision and zero common goals between younger and older people, affluent and disadvantaged communities, rural and urban areas and white and ethnic minority people.

    The real ‘Big Society’ is dead RIP; the ‘Big Society’ died when agent Cameron abandoned his ‘connect with the people while washing up and chastising the kids’ – the ‘home video’ was pulled with the demise of Tory secret weapon, ‘Webcameron’ a subliminal advertising exercise which promulgated:

    “”I want to tell you what the Conservative party is doing, what we’re up to, give you behind-the-scenes access so you can actually see what policies we’re developing, the things that we are doing…”

    Yeah right Mr Cameron! we found out the hard way; behind the scenes you were fucking spying on every British man, women and child. Why? Because that knowledge is power and essential for us[Tories] to rule by divide.

  280. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 2:39 pm

    From the Medialens editors.

    Immigrant checkpoints are naked state racism
    Posted by The Editors on August 2, 2013, 1:34 pm

    Today is Roma Holocaust Memorial Day, marking the start of the liquidation by the Nazis of the “Gipsy” camp at Auschwitz on 2 August 1944. Today is also being marked by racist, illegal state targeting of immigrants on the streets of Britain. The parallels are clearly not exact, but the sentiments are.

    At a time when most people are struggling to pay their bills, when wages have been driven down by zero hours and other slave-like “contracts”, when the ConDems are fighting for votes against the nationalist Ukip, it comes as little surprise that the Home Office has unleashed its dogs.

    They may not be wearing brown shirts, but the UK Border Agency officials might as well be. Setting up checkpoints at key locations around London, Durham, Manchester, Wales and Somerset, they have patently targeted non-white citizens for identity checks.

    This is racial profiling with a vengeance. Stopping people on this basis to ask them for their identity is patently unlawful, as is the Home Office boasting that they have caught “offenders” before people detained have even been charged.

    http://aworldtowin.net/blog/immigrant-checkpoints-are-naked-state.html

  281. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 3:25 pm

    @ Vronsky:

    “(EU citizens already have the UK franchise, I am told).”
    _____________

    Partly. Just to clarify :

    Under EU legislation, EU citizens have the franchise in a Member State other than their own and in which they are resident, but only :
    - in municipal (local) elections, not general elections
    - if they apply for the franchise (and, in so doing, undertake not to vote in the same type of elections in their country of origin; Member States are obliged to exchange information on such applications).

  282. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 3:28 pm

    @ Komodo

    “Sorry, H. I wasn’t a practitioner,”
    _______________

    I wasn’t clear enough, I meant that you have served.

  283. ”I want to tell you what the Conservative party is doing, what we’re up to, give you behind-the-scenes access so you can actually see what policies we’re developing, the things that we are doing…”

    Yeah right Mr Cameron! we found out the hard way; behind the scenes you were fucking spying on every British man, women and child.

    Cogent, Mark.
    Check out Martin Rowson’s Silly Season:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/series/martin-rowson-silly-season

    A jagged gash in the weft of reality. Indeed.

  284. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 3:38 pm

    @ Mr Scorgie :

    ““I seem to recall that I was wondering some time ago who would be entitled to vote in that referendum and asking whether any of the prolific posters and pro-independentists knew what SNP policies on that were.”
    “Answers came there none, of course (inconvenient question, I suppose).”

    Not an inconvenient question Habbabkuk, just a stupid one!”
    ______________________

    Oh, OK. You obviously know ahead of the rest of the citizenry what will be in the Scottish govt White Paper mentioned by Vronsky in his post of 08h59 thus :

    “we don’t know until the franchise is defined in a (Scottish) Government White Paper expected in November.”

    I feel you should discuss this with Vronsky, don’t you?

  285. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 3:45 pm

    [Mod/Jon: abusive attack on Passerby, deleted]

  286. doug scorgie

    2 Aug, 2013 - 3:51 pm

    “Newspaper forced to apologize over anti-Semitic clue in crossword puzzle

    Tribune Media Services newspapers printed a crossword clue where the three-letter answer for Shakespeare’s ‘Shylock’ was ‘Jew’

    In response the Anti-Defamation League asked the paper to print an apology and refrain from using clues that perpetuate negative Jewish stereotypes

    The paper issued an apology and promised not to print the clue again”

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/no-reference-to-jw-allowed.html#entry34078877

  287. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 4:05 pm

    “Immigrant checkpoints are naked state racism
    Posted by The Editors on August 2, 2013, 1:34 pm”
    ( a load of over-the-top guff follows – see at 14h39)
    _____________

    If the F.P. felt like showing us she has a mind of her own, she could stop simply cutting and pasting egregious bits of nonsense like the one above and, for instance, have a crack at the questions I submitted at 09h57 today.

    All others “viscerally shocked” by the spot checks at Kensal Green are also welcome to join in, of course!

  288. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 4:08 pm

    @ Komodo

    “Cogent, Mark.”

    You are the maestro of the oxymoron, Komodo, I take off my hat to you (cf avatar – no hat)

  289. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 4:14 pm

    AlcAnon;

    I am keeping an eye on these ‘threats’. I don’t believe anything the USG says and it could be an op to garner support for surveillance. Waiting for some Wikileaks/Manning/Snowden pushback to change public opinion back to preferring security over liberty.

  290. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 4:27 pm

    Six in a row. For goodness’ sake, find someone to play with him down at the beach volleyball court.

  291. doug scorgie

    2 Aug, 2013 - 4:31 pm

    Interesting debate on Zionism

    BBC (Persia) Hardtalk

    The debate (in English) starts around 1min in.

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/gilad-atzmon-on-hardtalk-bbc-persia-very-interesting.html#entry34085304

  292. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 4:43 pm

    Same old stuff from the crowd at BBC Watch about that Doug.

    http://bbcwatch.org/2013/07/31/bbc-persian-service-promotes-antisemitic-holocaust-denier-atzmon/

    See the comment below the article from Elizabeth Morley.

  293. when Going to Edinburgh soon, I shall black up, see whether I can be caught in the immigrant dragnet, our very own beginnings of an even more sophisticated golden dawn, Goetter daemmerung on all these scroungers, but only those who can’t afford to come here with loot they garnered from others hard labour.

    Most of them are desperate to work, the tales of Dick Whittington are still pandered, although today these golden paved streets are just for self pleasuring psychopath bankers, the vast majority of us feel a hard wind blowing.

    Thanks for all the great links provided.

    Bradley Manning is not a murderer, Lt.William Caley is/was. So anything more than two years in the slammer, taking account of the three years of psycho torture endured already, I think there is a chance for the US to re-address their Trust vacuum and let him go.

    Free Bradley Manning NOW!

  294. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 5:01 pm

    Habbakuk: did you read the traffic reports yet? Have you watched To Shoot an Elephant?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXHB2dnd42Q

    I’m very keen to hear your responses!

    Mary: I’m finding the great British public positively seething with tolerance and resistance, actually. Anyway, even people who have been thoroughly misinformed or fearmongered can be quite quickly reassured with the facts, I think.

  295. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 5:02 pm

    Yes Nevermind. Calley served just three and one-half years for his crimes. Manning faces how many?

  296. This is an interesting little video on the tolerance of Muslims in England (4’35″):

    Are extremists invading Britain?

  297. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 5:33 pm

    what a curious little video. the last time I had someone telling me that i would go to hell, it was a born again Christian.

  298. Intersting to see the life of the abusive comment to have stayed put for now more than one and one half of one hour!

    For some reason, on this blog, there has been “accommodation” given to these parasitic ziofuckwit vermin that have settled in and using this blog as yet another platform to further their filthy, supremacist, segregationist, apartheid agenda. Further given the degrees of latitude and laxity in moderation offered to these parasitic vermin, begs the question what the fuck is going on here?

  299. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 5:57 pm

    Not my experience in deepest Surrey Technicolour. A lot of prejudice is encountered. I even had a friend, a woman of my own age, applauding what Rudd is doing with the immigrants on Papua New Guinea. I had to remind her that Australian troops have been engaged in the coalitions in the ME wars causing mayhem and displacement of its peoples.

  300. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 6:06 pm

    FJ: interesting, and how did she respond?

  301. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 6:06 pm

  302. even in Syria joining the rebels I see

    Not so long left now!

    Assad delivered a speech the night before last I believe, during which he thanked the Syrian nation for helping him to get rid of the terrorists. Further, he indicated that shortly the war on terrorists will be over and the Syrian army will vanquish the terrorist, disappointing their sponsors.

    The game is over, and the score is heavily in favour of the opponents of the US and toadies. As I have already indicated, there is unrest in Qatar, as well as unrest in Saudi, with the the Saudis forces opening fire on the population of al Awamia, in Qtif. The “kaleidoscope” has broken, hence the adventurers, brigands, and privateers are on the back foot.

  303. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 6:22 pm

    With some wiki links?

  304. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 6:28 pm

    Technicolour. She didn’t want to know nor could she defend her view which left me thinking there’s goodbye to a friendship.

  305. Technicolour: Yes indeed, same here! Who are we to believe, when all sides trot out the same line of hysterical, dark-ages mumbo-jumbo, with the threat that the all-loving god will throw you into hell for eternity should you fail to embrace their particular version of it?

    Heard an interesting interview with a former Utah-based Christian who finally saw the light. He was a skilled organist, and was invited to play at many churches of all sorts of denominations (Xian, Mormon etc. etc.). Between playing, he had to listen to the sermons. Over time, he came to realise that all these religions, and all the subdivisions thereof, basically said the same thing – theirs was the One True Way, you’d better do what they say, or you’ll be condemned to hell for all eternity.

    Of course, they varied in how forcefully they played this message, but all said more or less the same. They couldn’t all be right, he realised. So why should his own brand be any more correct that the rest? He rightly concluded that none of them were correct, it was all BS, and become much happier as a result of his new-found enlightenment.

  306. Fedup poses an age-old conundrum, “…what the fuck is going on here?

    I have to admit to wondering the same on a daily basis. Here’s an example of someone struggling with very much the same sort of question.

  307. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 6:49 pm

    FJ: Ouch.

    This is an awful and powerful short video about the detention process in Australia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq0KSJWT2F8

    This is also worth watching:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcz4xh5qwVU

  308. doug scorgie

    2 Aug, 2013 - 7:07 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    2 Aug, 2013 – 9:57 am

    “re spot checks for illegal immigrants”

    “Just a few comments:” [Questions I think]

    “1/. Can I assume that posters here agree that illegal immigration … is not a welcome phenomenon?”

    Well it is illegal to be here illegally Habbabkuk so I’ll grant you that.

    2/. Can I assume that posters agree that the govt is entitled to do everything possible to combat the phenomenon and that this should include measures and actions to identify persons who have somehow gained entry?

    Only if the “everything possible” is legal.

    I suggest that, the actions of both the police and the border agents, is illegal and shows contempt for the law by the Home Office.

    Stop and question: police powers
    A police officer has powers to stop you at any time and ask you:
    • what you’re doing
    • why you’re in an area and/or where you’re going
    However, you don’t have to answer any questions the police officer asks you.
    https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights

    “3/. Can I assume that actions and measures undertaken by the public authorities charged with upholding the law should, to the extent possible, be efficient…”

    Yes.

    …and that this will inevitably involve, where appropriate, a measure of targeting?”

    Only if it’s legal and proportionate.

    “4/. Do posters here agree with a couple of the comments reported above : for example, that these operations are akin to life in “Nazi Germany”…”

    That may be a bit over the top but it is a worrying development towards a police state.

    “…or that being asked to identify oneself constitutes an erosion of individual liberties and freedoms…”

    Yes it clearly does erode our liberties. The police do not have the right to demand identification unless they suspect that someone is committing an offence or they believe they have committed an offence.

    “…given that identification is required in most other areas of modern life in a complex state (driving licences, state benefits, bank accounts, taking up employment..etc)?”

    That is a complete red herring Habbabkuk.

    “5/. Do posters consider that action against illegal economic immigration is an electioneering ploy…”

    Of course it is and it doesn’t matter which political party is in government. It’s called “playing the race card”.

    “…if so, (1) does it matter (given that the matter is apparently one of some public concern…”

    Why, I wonder is it a matter of public concern? Would it be the anti-immigrant propaganda by the government aided by the right-wing MSM:

    The Daily Mail: Propagating misinformation about immigrants.
    Again.

    On Monday 14 Feb, the front page of the Daily Mail pronounced: ‘Thousands of illegal workers claiming benefits: Loophole in the law costs taxpayers millions’. But by Thursday it became clear that this wasn´t a real expose of ‘welfare abuse’ rather another cynical attempt to propagate misinformation about immigrants.

    http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/blog/2011/02/daily-mail-propagating-misinformation-about-immigrants

    “…and (2) in which way it is more of an electioneering ploy than general economic policy, the NHS, public services in general…etc (also, apparently – and legitimately – matters of public concern?”

    Electioneering ploys are by nature lies whether it be on the NHS or Trident or immigration. However there is deep seated racism among many white Brits and it is an emotive subject (like sectarianism) that can be manipulated by the state to divide and rule.

    “6/. Finally, on a more practical level, what other measures would posters like to see the govt undertake in replacement of the measures being criticised, in order to counter illegal economic immigration wrt to illegal immigrants already inside the UK?”

    Prevention is better than cure is it not. But job cuts to Customs, Coast Guards and the Border Agency have led to an increase in smuggling, whether of drugs or people. The gates have been left unattended to save money.

    There is little point in chasing after illegal immigrants inside the UK if the gates remain unattended.

    I would also argue that the majority of illegal immigrants, if they are working, will be working for far less than the minimum wage and thus are not “taking our jobs” those jobs would not exist without them.

    If properly funded systems were in place illegal immigrants would not be able to fraudulently gain welfare benefits or housing. Such systems that do exist are scandalously under-funded.

    Job cuts and inadequate funding have consequences.

    Anyway Habbabkuk that’s my view what’s yours?

  309. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 7:08 pm

    Remember the USS Liberty.

    http://rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

  310. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 7:42 pm

    The Minister for Immigration Mark Harper was on Ch4 News. He is very pleased with the results of the Home Office anti illegal immigrant initiatives and is obviously well recovered from the fracture he sustained to his foot after falling off a table while dancing in a Soho nightspot at the end of June! Loads of fun with Mark?

    Wonder if he is planning any more trips to Israel courtesy of CFoI?

    17 July 2007 – View full entry
    6. Overseas visits
    11-15 June 2006, to Israel, hosted by Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI). CFI contributed the cost of flights, accommodation and some meals. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Official Guests Department) contributed to the costs of travel inside Israel, some accommodation and meals. (Registered 5 July 2006)

    He does not mind visitors from Israel coming to this country, even if they are war criminals.

    Oral Answers to Questions — Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Topical Questions (19 January 2010) has video
    Mark Harper: I listened carefully to the Foreign Secretary’s answer to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman). He agreed, I think, that leaders of Israel should be able to come to the United Kingdom without fear of arrest. What I did not hear in his answer was the steps that the British Government will take to ensure that that can happen……

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/mark_harper/forest_of_dean

    http://www.channel4.com/news/immigration-police-checks-arrests-government-home-office

    ~~~

    Ch4 News also included an item about Lynton Crosby’s anti-immigrant policy he devised for Howard which brought him to power.

  311. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 8:08 pm

    Craig was interviewed on Radio Ulster’s Good Morning Ulster yesterday morning. 1hr 11mins in

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037l8p5

  312. Glenn_uk

    Re your Muslim protest video 

    Those Muslims weren’t extremists, they were orthodox. I find it amusing to see people label others as “extremist” when they don’t like the message. Apparently, if you are faithful to a 1500 year old religion, then you are extreme. 

    The white English girl, while genuine in her concern about the cultural transformation of her community, was quite naive, presumptuous and a little condescending in her attitude towards the protesters. Who knows Islam better than a Muslim? A part-time Christian or feel-good agnostic?The people who spoke to her struck me as honest and plain speaking.

    You will need to get used to the changing face of British culture because there’s a whole lot more to come – all in good time. But if you don’t like orthodox Muslims, maybe you can show them the errors of their ways by telling them what Islam is actually all about.

  313. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 8:53 pm

    “while genuine in her concern about the cultural transformation of her community” – did you see a ‘cultural transformation’? did anyone? is Oxford St ‘culturally transformed’ when an equally small group of Hari Krishnas dance down it? The pillars of our society – Boots, MacDonalds – surely still remain.

    “Those Muslims weren’t extremists, they were orthodox” – well, telling people they will rot in hell is quite extreme, in my experience of people. Also, not Koranic teaching for ‘people of the Book’

    “You will need to get used to the changing face of British culture because there’s a whole lot more to come – all in good time” – ahah. A seer on board.

  314. For my plodding friend, Technicolour.

    Cultural transformation is an ongoing process, or do you think that the UK has remained the same for the last 50 years? 

    And extreme slogans don’t quite make an extremist, does it now? What do you suggest protesters to chant at a protest? Then again, maybe it takes one to know one. 

    As for “Koranic teaching”, I guess we should feel blessed to have your academic knowledge of Islam at hand over the preaching of Muslim clerics themselves. What was your major again? Theology?

    A seer on board? Is that supposed to be a clever putdown of a rational prediction?

    How many close personal friends of yours are Muslim? I mean, you claim to be tolerant and accepting, and that Muslims are good people just like everyone else, so you must have a whole bunch of Muslim friends who connect with you in a deep and meaningful way, right?

  315. Benghazi was fishy and CIA people are being gagged for something not to come out. Large weapopns consignment being shifted from Libya to Syria, maybe?
    Normal western processes excused by our diplomatic corp and foreign office as ‘necessary’.
    Nothing to see here, walk on.

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cia-pressured-quiet-benghazi/2013/08/02/id/518451?s=al&promo_code=1465A-1

  316. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    Jemand, if you’d read any of the dialogue between Suhayl and Arsalan to which you contributed, and followed some of the links, you would perhaps have a clearer idea of the breadth of Islamic thought?

    “Cultural transformation is an ongoing process, or do you think that the UK has remained the same for the last 50 years?”

    Where has remained the same? But, in this context, the film has not shown that Islam has ‘transformed’ (extreme word) the whole of Luton, or even that particular street in Luton. You are nevertheless suggesting that Muslims, who form under 5 percent of the population, a figure which includes babies and grandmothers and children and great-uncles and boy clubbers and girls in jeggings, are going to ‘transform’ the whole of the UK?

    Well, that would be nice. I’d like us all to calm down, look after our children, and go dancing more.

  317. Flaming June

    2 Aug, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    Not content with just Lynton Crosby, the Con Dems now hire Obama’s election
    campaign manager. They must be getting the wind up.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23551323

  318. AlcAnon – the world-wide caution announced by the US State Department is fitting and timely. Today is the last Friday in the holy month before Eid.

    Tomorrow we will witness extreme violence in Egypt and while our eyes are turned in that direction a devastating attack on locations in Damascus by Israeli cruise missiles will be followed by Israel controlled takfiri groups moving through Qatana approaching Daraya from the South West.

  319. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 10:26 pm

    @ Mr Scorgie

    Thank you for engaging. Hereafter my responses to your comments. For easy of reading, I’ll put them in upper case.

    _______________

    “1/. Can I assume that posters here agree that illegal immigration … is not a welcome phenomenon?”

    Well it is illegal to be here illegally Habbabkuk so I’ll grant you that.

    AS YOU OBVIOUSLY ATTACH GREAT IMPORTANCE TO LEGALITY (AS EVIDENCED BY SOME OF YOUR LATER COMMENTS)I SHALL TAKE YOUR ANSWER AS A “YES” – ie, YOU AGREE THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS NOT TO BE WELCOMED.

    2/. Can I assume that posters agree that the govt is entitled to do everything possible to combat the phenomenon and that this should include measures and actions to identify persons who have somehow gained entry?

    Only if the “everything possible” is legal.

    I suggest that, the actions of both the police and the border agents, is illegal and shows contempt for the law by the Home Office.

    YOU ARE WRONG;UNDER CURRENT LEGISLATION, OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WERE DOING AT KENSAL GREEN

    Stop and question: police powers
    A police officer has powers to stop you at any time and ask you:
    • what you’re doing
    • why you’re in an area and/or where you’re going
    However, you don’t have to answer any questions the police officer asks you.
    https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights

    THAT IS CORRECT. BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY HERE. SEE ALSO COMMENTS ABOVE AND BELOW.

    “3/. Can I assume that actions and measures undertaken by the public authorities charged with upholding the law should, to the extent possible, be efficient…”

    Yes.

    …and that this will inevitably involve, where appropriate, a measure of targeting?”

    Only if it’s legal and proportionate.

    IT WAS LEGAL AND I BELIEVE IT WAS PROPORTIONATE : FIRSTLY, THERE IS A GREATER CHANCE THAT YOU WILL FIND ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS IN AREAS LIKE KENSAL GREEN THAN, FOR EXAMPLE,IN THE LEAFY SPACES OF SURREY WHERE FLAMING JUNE LIVES (if you need an explanation for that, ask and I shall respond); SECONDLY, ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE DARK-SKINNED THAN WHITE – BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE FROM CERTAIN COUNTRIES THAN FROM OTHERS (there would be little point in stopping Flaming June, for example).

    “4/. Do posters here agree with a couple of the comments reported above : for example, that these operations are akin to life in “Nazi Germany”…”

    That may be a bit over the top but it is a worrying development towards a police state.

    SO WE AGREE ON THE OVER-THE-TOP BIT, ALTHOUGH I’M NOT SURE WHY YOU SAY “MAY BE” RATHER THAN “IS”. CONVERSELY, YOU COULD USE “MAY BE” IN THE SECOND PART OF THE SENTENCE RATHER THAN “IS”.
    ANYWAY, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS ANY MORE A WORRYING STEP TOWARDS A POLICE STATE THAN ANY OTHER ACTION BY THE PUBLIC AUTHORITIES DESIGNED TO UPHOLD AND ENFORCE THE LAW OF THE LAND.

    “…or that being asked to identify oneself constitutes an erosion of individual liberties and freedoms…”

    Yes it clearly does erode our liberties. The police do not have the right to demand identification unless they suspect that someone is committing an offence or they believe they have committed an offence.

    I AGAIN REPEAT THAT THE OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY WERE ACTING WITHIN THEIR POWERS, SO THERE IS NO POINT IN YOU TALKING ABOUT THE POLICE THE WHOLE TIME. SECONDLY, EVEN IF IT HAD BEEN THE POLICE, THEY WOULD HAVE ACTED ON THE BELIEF THAT THE PERSONS ASKED TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES HAD COMMITTED AN OFFENCE, NAMELY THAT OF BEING IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.

    “…given that identification is required in most other areas of modern life in a complex state (driving licences, state benefits, bank accounts, taking up employment..etc)?”

    That is a complete red herring Habbabkuk.

    NO, I DON’T BELIEVE IT IS. CERTAIN FACILITIES AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC REQUIRE IDENTIFICATION. BEING IN THE UK IF YOU ARE A NON-EU FOREIGN NATIONAL IS ALSO A FACILITY AND IT SEEMS DIFFICULT TO ARGUE THAT THE AUTHORITIES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ASCERTAIN IF YOU ARE AVAILING YOURSELF OF THAT FACILITY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW.

    “5/. Do posters consider that action against illegal economic immigration is an electioneering ploy…”

    Of course it is and it doesn’t matter which political party is in government. It’s called “playing the race card”.

    I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS PLAYING THE RACE CARD. AT MOST IT IS PLAYING THE ANTI-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION CARD.

    “…if so, (1) does it matter (given that the matter is apparently one of some public concern…”

    Why, I wonder is it a matter of public concern? Would it be the anti-immigrant propaganda by the government aided by the right-wing MSM:

    YES? I DO BELIEVE IT IS A MATTER OR PUBLIC CONCERN, ALTHOUGH IT IS CERTAINLY NOT THE TOP CONCERN. I DON’T THINK YOU CAN CLAIM IN THE SAME BREATH THAT IT IS NOT A MATTER OF PUBLIC CONCERN AND THAT THE GOVT IS USING IT AS A “CARD”.

    The Daily Mail: Propagating misinformation about immigrants.
    Again.

    On Monday 14 Feb, the front page of the Daily Mail pronounced: ‘Thousands of illegal workers claiming benefits: Loophole in the law costs taxpayers millions’. But by Thursday it became clear that this wasn´t a real expose of ‘welfare abuse’ rather another cynical attempt to propagate misinformation about immigrants.

    THIS EXAMPLE IS A TRUE RED HERRING FROM YOU. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IMPLEMETING THE LAW OF THE LAND AND NOT WHAT THE DAILY MAIL – WHICH DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE GOVT – IS SAYING.

    http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/blog/2011/02/daily-mail-propagating-misinformation-about-immigrants

    “…and (2) in which way it is more of an electioneering ploy than general economic policy, the NHS, public services in general…etc (also, apparently – and legitimately – matters of public concern?”

    Electioneering ploys are by nature lies whether it be on the NHS or Trident or immigration. However there is deep seated racism among many white Brits and it is an emotive subject (like sectarianism) that can be manipulated by the state to divide and rule.

    I DON’T THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION. FURTHERMORE, WHO IS TRYING TO DIVIDE WHOM FROM WHOM AND TO WHAT PURPOSE – PLEASE EXPLAIN MORE CONCRETELY (AND IN ELECTORAL TERMS).

    “6/. Finally, on a more practical level, what other measures would posters like to see the govt undertake in replacement of the measures being criticised, in order to counter illegal economic immigration wrt to illegal immigrants already inside the UK?”

    Prevention is better than cure is it not. But job cuts to Customs, Coast Guards and the Border Agency have led to an increase in smuggling, whether of drugs or people. The gates have been left unattended to save money.

    NO, I DON’T BELIEVE THAT THIS IS TRUE. ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS – AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY OUT OF GETTING INTO THE COUNTRY – ARE PRETTY DETERMINED AND CUNNING PEOPLE AND NO BORDER CONTROLS ARE 100% EFFECTIVE (UNFORTUNATELY)

    There is little point in chasing after illegal immigrants inside the UK if the gates remain unattended.

    TH SAY THAT THE GATES ARE LEFT UNATTENDED IS A GROSS MISREPRESENTATION AND IT IS IN ANY EVENT SILLY TO TAKE A POSITION WHICH SAYS THAT IF SOMEONE GETS PAST BORDER CONTROL SUCCESSFULLY HE SHOULD BE LEFT IN PEACE THEREAFTER. THIS IS A SERIOUS MATTER AND NOT A GAME OF MONOPOLY (“PASS GO AND COLLECT YOUR £200″)

    I would also argue that the majority of illegal immigrants, if they are working, will be working for far less than the minimum wage and thus are not “taking our jobs” those jobs would not exist without them.

    IRRELEVANT FOR OUR DISCUSSION HERE (YOU YOURSELF SAY “ALSO”). AND EVEN IF IT WAS NOT, WHAT YOU WOULD BE SAYING IS THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS OK BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ARE WORKING FOR LESS THAN THE MINIMUM WAGE.

    If properly funded systems were in place illegal immigrants would not be able to fraudulently gain welfare benefits or housing. Such systems that do exist are scandalously under-funded.

    AGAIN, IRRELEVANT FOR OUR DISCUSSION; I DON’T BELIEVE I SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WELFARE FRAUD DID I? YOU MIGHT BE CONFUSING ME WITH THE DAILY MAIL.

    Job cuts and inadequate funding have consequences.

    Anyway Habbabkuk that’s my view what’s yours?

    THERE YOU GO, MR SCORGIE, BONNE LECTURE ( I’M ASSUMING YOU WROTE AS THE SPOKESPERSON FOR OTHERS AND THAT THEREFORE NOBODY ELSE WILL STICK THEIR HEAD ABOVE THE PARAPET)

  320. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 10:31 pm

    Mark; The US travel alert ostensibly is an unspecified threat, but the likely spot is Yemen.fwiu.

    Is your reference speculation on yesterday’s huge explosion in Homs?

  321. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 10:33 pm

    All that shouting is giving me a headache.

  322. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 10:46 pm

    @ Ben

    Don’t be silly. I gave the reason why I would use upper case – it’s so that even ignoramuses like you could easily pick out my replies to Mr Scorgie’s replies to my original comments

    Have another smoke and your headache will disappear.

  323. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 10:49 pm

    “As a dog returneth to his vomit ” (Proverbs 26:11)….

    …so the Frequent Poster, oblivious to what everyone else is writing about, returns to her favorite obsession at 19h42.

    Yup, it’s Israel time again in leafy Surrey!

  324. [Mod/Jon: abusive attack on Habbabkuk, deleted]

  325. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:10 pm

    Not on, Fedup. Appalling, in fact. You are sounding strangely like a crazed far-right person – do you know that? You do know that this is just typing.

    Habbakuk: before you mention Israel again, it might be good for educational purposes (after all, are we not here to have our view extended?) have you watched To Shoot An Elephant yet?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXHB2dnd42Q

  326. Not on, Fedup. Appalling, in fact. You are sounding strangely like a crazed far-right person – do you know that? You do know that this is just typing.

    [Mod/Jon: abusive, deleted]

  327. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:14 pm

    ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS – AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY OUT OF GETTING INTO THE COUNTRY – ARE PRETTY DETERMINED AND CUNNING PEOPLE AND NO BORDER CONTROLS ARE 100% EFFECTIVE (UNFORTUNATELY)

    come on:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcz4xh5qwVU

  328. Fedup/Passerby is getting cross. Put your anti-splatter covers on your screens.

    Thanks for the link to BBC Radio Ulster, Mary.
    I must say the guy who interviewed Craig irritated me. 1) It would have taken him all of 5 seconds to find out the pronunciation of “Féile an Phobail” — so he didn’t pronounce it Fayla an Foebal. And 2) he sounded more interested in the sound of his own voice than in what Craig was saying.
    But maybe it’s just me …

  329. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:18 pm

    Well,

    “I am sick of these cunts insulting all and sundry and getting away with it!”

    er…

  330. [Mod/Jon: abusive, deleted]

  331. “I am sick of these cunts insulting all and sundry and getting away with it!”

    No, Fedup/Passerby. You cannot tolerate any – even the smallest hint of – insult to yourself. And you start foaming at the mouth over it.

    Calm down. Go out for a walk.

  332. And “u75″ is?

    You don’t know me from Adam, or Eve, Fedup. The only place you’ve come across me is here.

  333. [Mod/Jon: abusive, deleted]

  334. Yeah you wish!

  335. “Old hag you played the same shit in u75 you can fool these tossers, but you are not fooling me I know what and who you are!”

    Paranoid nonsense. Perhaps you’d tell us what u75 is?

  336. Don’t be coy now, you are talking to me, remember!

    Sum total of your efforts are sniping from the side lines with your suppressive fire in support of the ziofuckwits. You are constantly on Mary’s case, and there is not a week that goes by without you calling me fedup/passerby, cute isn’t it?

  337. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:27 pm

    It seems Yemen is the likely location. Hotter by the minute.

    http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/08/us_drones_kill_5_aqa_1.php

  338. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:28 pm

    Ihtiraam lil ahl, Fedup.

  339. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:30 pm

    It’s pretty hot in here too.

  340. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:30 pm

    No, no, you musn’t get all annoyed with Fedup!

    He’s doing a great job in diverting you away from my post(s) of substance.

    So he’s really working for you. :)

  341. Puedo hablar diversos cuatro idiomas, así que ¿qué más da?

  342. [Mod/Jon: abusive, deleted]

  343. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:33 pm

    You are constantly on Mary’s case,

    nonsense

    and there is not a week that goes by without you calling me fedup/passerby, cute isn’t it?

    tschah

  344. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:36 pm

    Fedup: uberhaupt nichts! no ochin interiessneye.

    Habbakuk: have you watched To Shoot An Elephant yet?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXHB2dnd42Q

  345. “Sum total of your efforts are sniping from the side lines with your suppressive fire in support of the ziofuckwits.”

    You’re clearly unbalanced, Fedup/Passerby. And you clearly don’t read here very carefully either or you’d have worked out long ago that I’m pro-Palestinian.
    And I assure you that we have not met anywhere else. I very seriously doubt if I’d forget your hot air and your language and your strange way of expressing yourself. Not a lot of people start sentences and forget to finish them.

    I call you Fedup/Passerby because they are one and the same person. Clear as day. And you made a reference to your “other nicks” on the Counter-terrorism thread.

    Now calm down. You don’t have the faintest idea who I am. And whatever u75 is, I know zero about it.

  346. Fedup, everybody’s getting fed up.

    Something’s about to happen with instructions for UK residents to leave Yemen. (Yemen is one of the countries where a large number of people are killed by drones). It would surprise me if any of this “news” is based on information about al Qaeda. After all the Yanks arrested and imprisoned 779 people from al Qaeda (many from the Yemen). After more than ten years they have charged 13 people out of those that have been incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay and I know of only one conviction. Mark Golding at 10.13 I hope this is not right, but nothing would surprise me. Russia and China will probably not get involved. The plan for the US/Israel to dominate the world is still on target. At least that is what they think. That is what the Nazis thought too. All empires are doomed. When the sleeping giant (people) wakes up there will be unimaginable changes.

  347. You are constantly on Mary’s case,

    nonsense

    Course not, as ever jump in there, and start your act, go read the constant drivelling about Mary’s punctuation, grammar, fuck knows what else, that is not being on her case. Then comes her fucking crystal ball that she so gases into so fucking often fedup/psserby that is her fucking sum total of contribution juxtaposition with a token peppering of links for keeping up appearances sake.

  348. Hi Ben – al-Qaeda mapped defectors in Yemen are identified and taken out.It is an ongoing process Ben and a source of good earnings for ex SAS mercenaries.

  349. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:39 pm

    @ Technicolour
    (23h14)

    “– AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY OUT OF GETTING INTO THE COUNTRY-”
    _____________

    Apologies, I think I mislead you with a typo; the above part sentence should have read as follows :

    “-and the people who make money out of getting THEM (ie, the illegal economic immigrants) into the country – “

  350. You’re clearly unbalanced, Fedup/Passerby. And you clearly don’t read here very carefully either or you’d have worked out long ago that I’m pro-Palestinian.

    Yeah sure!!!

    Remember it is me you are talking to.

  351. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:45 pm

    @ Technicolour

    You’re rather keen that I should watch “To shoot an elephant”. What’s it about (time is money, you know!) and how/why do you think I would benefit?

    Are you related to elephants, or even an elephant yourself? You have such a good memory….. :)

  352. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:48 pm

    If you are Céléstine, who is your Babar? Nobody on here, I hope!

  353. Gilbert Mercier, Editor-in-Chief of News Junkie Post has just published this accurate picture of how the hyenas and other scavengers of the US/Israeli banking and cartel conglomerates are picking at the raw flesh of a public out of which it has pecked the eyes.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/08/02/capitalism-back-to-the-dark-ages-of-feudalism

  354. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:49 pm

    ok Fedup:

    You are constantly on Mary’s case,

    Fucking nonsense!

    I’m off to bed now. Habbakuk, have you -

  355. True John there will be unimaginable changes, incomprehensible to our conditioned minds.

    Yet that shift in consciousness (sleeping giant waking up) is eeezy man if we could connect with each other. Obviously although sadly and unfortunately that rebirth will be the result of a catalyst, an impetus from distress, suffering and pain.

  356. technicolour

    2 Aug, 2013 - 11:52 pm

    Oh, Habbakuk, just before I go, as I said originally:

    “To shoot an elephant” is an eye witness account from The Gaza Strip. December 27th, 2008, Operation Cast Lead…from the only foreigners who decided and managed to stay embedded inside Gaza strip ambulances, with Palestinian civilians.

    Purpose: information/elucidation

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXHB2dnd42Q

  357. Yemen you say?

    British embassy in Yemen to close as ‘precaution’

    The British embassy in Yemen is to be closed on Sunday and Monday as “a precautionary measure”, the Foreign Office has confirmed.

    A spokesman would not say if the closure was in response to a specific threat.

  358. “Remember it is me you are talking to.”

    LOL! I’m supposed to know what that means? Tell us what u75 stands for and maybe I can go and investigate. Otherwise, stop wasting your breath. You’re talking through your ar*e.

  359. Tell us what u75 stands for and maybe I can go and investigate

    Surely you cannot be so coy now, can you?

    You know! I have the measure of you, your act is nothing new is it?

  360. Ben Franklin thanks for the link to more recent drone killings in Yemen. Recently the journalist Shaye was released from a wrongful imprisonment but is not allowed to leave Yemen. Are they going to target him because of what he knows of the innocents killed in these cowardly attacks.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/06/04/the-united-states-of-extra-judicial-murder-and-imprisonment/

  361. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 12:02 am

    I sense this is to swing the pendulum back to making the Public more concerned about security than liberty. Great damage has been done to the Monolith by Manning et al and they could be staging a comeback for their reputation as ‘protectors’.

    Imagine if they show, with charts and graphs, that they could have gotten metadata to stop an attack, if only Snowden hadn’t spilled their candy in the Lobby. The metrics for civil liberties would take a giant step backward.

  362. It’s after midnight, Fedup/Passerby, and your nonsense is boring. Whoever you think I am, you’re wrong.

    I’ve Googled u75 and come up with this
    http://www.urban75.net/forums/

    somewhere I have never visited before. Ever.
    I told you, you’re off your head. You have the measure of nothing. Just more of your hot air.

    Goodnight all

  363. technicolour

    3 Aug, 2013 - 12:15 am

    ps try searching for ‘dreoilin’ on the Urban 75 forums. Fedup, can you explain why there are no results?

  364. I told you, you’re off your head. You have the measure of nothing. Just more of your hot air.

    Yeah sure!!

    You are a cunning little devil aren’t you?

    Hot air! You wish don’t you?

  365. ps try searching for ‘dreoilin’ on the Urban 75 forums. Fedup, can you explain why there are no results?

    You really think you are so sharp don’t you?

    Search engines, that is namely google knows everything, and your search turned up nothing, so that is the end of that then?

    Pitiful just pitiful!

    Let us see what is your explanation for this “phenomena”?

  366. Ben did you ever go to Ogrich before it transmuted to an sis front shop?

    If you did so, there you would have seen the chopper attack in its entirety, and many other attacks, including the friendly fire incidents along with the nude pics of the US soldiers posing with their weapons along with other sick clips of US soldier eating a dead Iraqis Marsbar, and puking as he ate it?

    Manning is being fitted up, the poor bastard, most of the clips that are no longer on the net were doing the rounds in the early days of the war. Don’t know what is happening with peoples memory, no one seems to remember shit!

  367. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 12:58 am

    Yemen Times..

    “The AQAP-affiliated online Arabic magazine, Sada Al-Malahim, called the NDC members “infidels,” and encouraged supporters to send in the addresses of those who voted against the measure.”

  368. Fedup, you are priceless. 

    Funnier than a one-eyed, flatulent dog chewing on its hind-leg.

    Watch Fedup in action -
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbn__Tta_0E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  369. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 5:54 am

    Dreoilin. Thanks. Agree about Craig’s interviewer who I assume is Conor Bradford who sounds so ‘smoooooth’. Another second generation BBC type like so many others. His father was Roy Bradford, a Unionist MP and minister!

    I found this interview.
    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/new-day-for-good-morning-ulster-s-conor-bradford-1-1888583

    ~~~

  370. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 6:03 am

    Hate to disabuse the Resident Invigilator that ‘leafy Surrey’ does not see any interventions from Mrs May’s heavies trawling for humans who don’t have the right bit of paper.

    In February, an old lady died alone having been left for 9 days without a visit from her carers after the care agency employed by Surrey CC to look after closed down following a UKBA raid. Note the involvement of the Met in the raid. Outrageous that nobody was prosecuted.

    Family disappointment as police drop investigation into pensioner who starved to death
    Family and friends of a pensioner left to die alone after the council forgot to replace her care staff have told of their outrage that no one will be prosecuted. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/10049848/Family-disappointment-as-police-drop-investigation-into-pensioner-who-starved-to-death.html

    In Guildford, another trawl has just taken away six other humans, for deportation presumably. Their countries of origin are Afghanistan, Pakistan, China and Nepal. Note the possibility of a £10,000 fine for an employer and also the cooperation of the Surrey Police and the council. Verily a police state.

    Illegal immigrants found working for Guildford firms http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/illegal-immigants-found-working-guildford-5402869

    Just two instances of round ups in Surrey. I expect there are many more that do not make the headlines.

    ‘And then they came for you’…….

  371. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 6:09 am

    I say old chap! BRITISH Telecom. What! Never!

    What we always knew.

    BT and Vodafone among telecoms companies passing details to GCHQ
    Fears of customer backlash over breach of privacy as firms give GCHQ unlimited access to their undersea cables

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/02/telecoms-bt-vodafone-cables-gchq

  372. BrianFujisan

    3 Aug, 2013 - 6:16 am

    Its a little over the top…. for Fedup.
    mysterious the history re Dreolin, whom knows fedup as passerby… and vise versa… Whilst i dont think its helpfull to re open shit with the girls

    I find it sickening the commenter above Should decry that censorship improves history….

    as i say Sickening

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-hiroshima-myth-unaccountable-war-crimes-and-the-lies-of-us-military-history/5344436

  373. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 6:18 am

    Just one of those coincidences. I was looking at the Equalities and Human Rights Commission to see who resides there. They are now inquiring into the legality of the Border Agency’s recent activities.
    Immigrant spot checks: Equality watchdog investigates
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23552088

    The UK is good at holding inquiries by the dozen.

    Who should be the deputy chair but this person from BT!

    Currently Director of People and Policy at BT, Caroline Waters has a distinguished record on equality, inclusion, and human resources, and has been the driving force of many diversity-focused groups such as the Chair of Employers for Carers since 2001, helping to found the Employers’ Forum on Belief, and as Chair of the Lone Parents working group. She was awarded HR Director of the Year in the 2009 HR Excellence Awards and has also judged a number of prestigious diversity awards including the CRE Race in the Media Awards and Help the Aged’s Living Legends. She was awarded the OBE for services to diversity and equal opportunities in the New Year’s list in 2010. She is a Trustee of the Employers network for equality and inclusion.

    http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/about-us/the-commissioners/

  374. BrianFujisan

    3 Aug, 2013 - 6:18 am

    Shit Sorry mary…My post was ment for Jemand ..

  375. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 7:34 am

    Q Are Bush and B.Liar back in power? I only ask because terrrrrrrr is all over the internet.

  376. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 7:43 am

    Have the terrrrrrr alerts got anything to do with Obomber’s meeting with the Yemeni President on Thursday and a US drone strike on Yemen that killed four Alki Ada ‘militants’.

    http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_08_01/Obama-Yemen-leader-to-meet-on-Gitmo-after-drone-strike-6483/

  377. Old Aussie fart, good to see your family vids, but what has got to do with the price of eggs in the farm yard? You are still the same senile tosser who cannot distinguish between a mental malady and and insult, whining on about you are not old and irrelevant. Despite the same tag team operating on the same lines, on another thread, sort of habit with these really.

  378. Brian, I am sick of the same characters using the same tactics to intimidate commenters and bully them. The history is indeed an inserting one, hence the denials, and the constant stream of accusations, and so far as the opening shit with girls goes, snap out of it! Just have cruise on the internet clips and see how “girls” are kicking the blokes heads and stabbing them, the rage is equality now.

  379. Brian also do some research on Tokyo fire bombings, Curtis LeMay the war criminal (he actually is on record acknowledging that if US loses the war, he will be tried for war crimes) planned these meticulously. He had learned his trade from Bomber Harris and attacks on Germany, including the Dresden bombings; waves of incendiary bombs, followed by high explosives bombs, causing a fire storm of 200 miles an hour magnitude. The stories of German mothers getting stock in the melting road asphalt in a bid to rescue their young, are trickling out gradually.

    Those animals around here supporting such a policies, can do so because the mickey mouse version of history available on tap 24/7 on Hitler Channel will not even hint at the reality of what ghastly, and sickening crimes were committed during the “just wars”.

  380. Good to see you making new friends here, Fedup. That’s what this blog is all about – friendship.

    As an Islamist, Fedup, what is your opinion of the protest video posted by Gelnn_uk on this page?

  381. A van at the Tory conference saying "Eff off back to Eton," and reaction by a Torygraph Zionist

    3 Aug, 2013 - 10:18 am

    This van will be parked outside the Tory conference, carrying the slogan “FUCK OFF BACK TO ETON”. Good stuff.

    Once again, as with the party held in Trafalgar Square to celebrate Thatcher’s death, anarchist Ian Bone is doing something that a large number of us can latch onto. Nice one, Ian!

    But wait a minute…the Torygraph don’t like it!

    According to Jake Wallis Simons, writing in that wretched organ, everyone who uses ‘social media’ will be aware of this van. Sadly I think he’s exaggerating. Jake goes on to express his outrage at the fact so far he hasn’t come across “a single person who has criticised it as an expression of hatred and prejudice”. Oh how terrible! Us Moorlocks just don’t understand stuff! We’re just animals!

    Jake can’t write for toffees, but he landed himself a job at the Independent, where his pals made one of his novels a “Book of the Year”.

    Most of his novels are on Jewish themes. A raving Zionist, he helps promote the ‘Iranian nuclear threat’.

    Loyal to Israel (read on), he also pokes fun, in his cackhanded way, at those who would dare criticise the US and British war effort and intelligence services. For instance, he says things like “The Guardian’s new Edward Snowden exclusive is anti-American mischief”.

    Ho hum. Another day, another Edward Snowden exclusive in the Guardian. This one reveals a real shocker: spies do spying. No, no, you don’t understand. They do. They actually do. At one point, the article quotes an anonymous GCHQ employee complaining about “the level of deception involved”. With a straight face and everything. (April 1st, was it?)

    He went to St Peter’s College, Oxford, but appears to have got a completely crap degree, because he ended up doing a PhD in “Creative Writing” at the University of East Anglia…

    …after failing to get into MI6. Maybe that was because he was too thick, or maybe they’d filled up their Zionist quota for that year? After all, the Zionists will decide how obvious they want to make what they’re doing. In any case, either consideration would have been sufficient.

    The following quotes are from here.

    Many of my friends from Oxford tell the same story. The Master discreetly calls them in for sherry one day. After a brief – and somewhat stilted – chat about their future, he asks if they have considered the Foreign Office. If they reply positively, he asks how they would feel about the “special Foreign Office”. There follows several weeks later an interview in a certain nondescript building near Westminster. At that point, whether the candidate embarked upon a career with SIS (MI6) or not, they will draw their story to a close.

    The students who were approached were precisely the sorts one would expect. The ones who were studying PPE or languages; those with an interest in politics, perhaps active in the Union; the ones who were the most efficient, conformist, responsible, ambitious, and worldly that Oxford had to offer. Personally, I was none of these things, and I never got the “tap on the shoulder”. Nonetheless, when casting around for a suitable career after University, I thought I might as well throw SIS into the mix.

    I managed to make it through the first round before I was rejected. To be honest, I was surprised that it had taken all of one round for MI6 to twig that a creative type like me, with an unusually small hippocampus and a dislike for anything practical, might not be of great benefit to our national security. Nevertheless, I’d tasted the tiniest soupçon of the world of espionage, and found myself determining to experience it – or a version of it – for myself one day, through fiction.

    Several members of my family have served in the Israeli army, in various different units. My brother, for instance, was a combat medic, my cousin was in an infantry brigade, and my uncle was a paratrooper commando. I myself, at the age of sixteen, briefly flirted with the idea of joining up, even though I knew deep down that it was just a fantasy (like the attempt I would later make to join SIS). Instead of joining the IDF, I went travelling in Asia, then on to Oxford. But my proximity to the toughness and camaraderie of the Israeli army has left me with an enduring fascination. And, of course, a wealth of interview contacts.

    When I began my research for The Pure, I was surprised by how rarely the contemporary Mossad features in popular culture. This is the deadliest, most feared, most awe-inspiring secret service in existence. The audacious assassination of the Hamas weapons smuggler in Dubai in January 2010 – for which Mossad operatives disguised themselves as tennis players – commanded the attention of the world (in Israel, tennis kit has become a standard fancy dress outfit). As did the 1996 killing of the Hamas suicide bombmaker Yahya Ayyash, known as “the Engineer”, whose head was blown off by a booby-trapped mobile phone.

    Did tennis kit become a standard fancy dress outfit in Israel before or after the Dubai murder? Does someone here know?

    Jakie continues:

    My first port of call was to interview my various contacts from the Israeli military. I also consulted the wealth of media reports – many of them speculative – about alleged Mossad operations around the world. Most helpful of all, however, was the 1991 memoir By Way Of Deception: the making and unmaking of a Mossad officer, by Victor Ostrovsky. This book, the publication of which the Israeli government tried to suppress, claims to lift the lid on the Mossad’s recruitment and training processes, as well as their modus operandi in the field. Much of The Pure is based on this, which I think lends the thriller authenticity.”

    So he wrote the book for his Zionist pals, got helped by the Brits who didn’t recruit him for a proper job, and ripped a load of stuff off from Victor Ostrovsky.

    Finally, it was natural to show the first draft of the manuscript to the various British diplomats and intelligence officers to whom I was connected through Oxford. By and large, they found that the book rang true, although they did provide several very important pieces of advice, all of which I implemented. My only regret is that for obvious reasons I am unable to acknowledge them, and my Israeli contacts, by name. Nevertheless, they have my thanks.

    What strikes me, is that this dickhead can’t write.

    The world of international espionage – so desperate, so dangerous, so cunning and audacious – is a perennial source of vicarious entertainment. In expanding our fictional horizons to encompass the world of the Mossad, I hope to provide not only high octane thrills and spills, but also a thought-provoking exploration of the difficulties involved in being an Israeli in the world today.

    Expand our horizons? High octane? Thought-provoking? The world today? That’s fucking awful! I wouldn’t have thought you could get a PhD in “creative writing” at the Unversity of East Anglia, having so little clue. Did he have some pals there, too? Or what?

  382. A van at the Tory conference saying "Eff off back to Eton," and reaction by a Torygraph Zionist

    3 Aug, 2013 - 10:22 am

    I am now told that Jakie got a first in English at Oxford, and apparently he did get a PhD in 2009 from the University of East Anglia. Funny he appears to have no skills whatsoever in writing creatively. There again, maybe they are just using the word “creative” in the “advertising” sense, i.e. not to mean anything to do with creativity?

  383. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 10:26 am

    The colour Orange.

    Shame on this woman who is a Unionist councillor. Has she not seen enough killing in N Ireland?

    ‘On Facebook, she responded to someone else’s post about an imaginary attack on the parade in which several people including Sinn Féin figures are killed.

    She wrote: “We would have done a great service to Northern Ireland and the world.” She later apologised.’

    Ruth Patterson is charged over Facebook parade comments
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23547697

    Her CV. Well embedded. Deputy Lord Mayor and Alderman even.
    http://minutes.belfastcity.gov.uk/documents/s62749/PattersonRuthCV.doc.pdf

  384. Jemand – Censorship Improves History 2 Aug, 2013 – 4:21 am

    “Phil, Your rejection of and antipathy towards “competition” is wholly political.”

    Blimey, I do not even know how one might reject or dislike the notion of competition. One might as well say “I don’t believe in trees”.

    I guess you only read one part of what I said. So, just to be super duper clear, let me repeat my point again (apologies to others). It is a simple point that is lost in the “it’s a dog eat dog world” orthodoxy constantly sold to us in an ideological push to justify greed and war. Here it is:

    Cooperation drives evolution as well as, if not more than, competition.

    “competition drives improvement and cooperation drives performance.”

    There you go. I suggest you oversimplify and create partition with your specificity but really we are saying very similar things.

    “Regarding road traffic experiments where road rules and/or traffic controls are removed, it sure seems to be working out well in Asia and Africa.”

    Er, I don’t believe they are experimenting with ‘shared space’ in those places. Which sort of makes the point. Perhaps at some point some countries might look at embracing such a wonderful idea to reduce the traffic deaths.

    Orthodoxies are deeply entrenched. The fact that traffic regulations cause accidents and slows down traffic is difficult to get your head around. But try harder because the evidence points that way:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533248/Is-this-the-end-of-the-road-for-traffic-lights.html

  385. FJ
    “Shame on this woman”

    Sure shame her but don’t arrest people for what they say.

  386. Mary – Ruth Patterson was charged under the Communications Act 2003.

    Section 127(1)(a), prescribes that “a person is guilty of an offence (a) if he sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character” (i.e. otherwise than by means of a programme service).

    According to a High Court Appeal:

    Whether a message is grossly offensive is a question of fact.

    In deciding, judges should apply “the standards of an open and just multi-racial society, and that the words must be judged taking account of their context and all relevant circumstances…Usages and sensitivities may change over time.

    Language otherwise insulting may be used in an unpejorative, even affectionate, way, or may be adopted as a badge of honour (‘Old Contemptibles’). There can be no yardstick of gross offensiveness otherwise than by the application of reasonably enlightened, but not perfectionist, contemporary standards to the particular message sent in its particular context. The test is whether a message is couched in terms liable to cause gross offence to those to whom it relates.

    In other words – words are just words…

  387. Hi Mark / Eton Van,

    I know one such ex SAS operating out of Dubai.

    0 Recommends.

    I wonder why?

  388. “I guess you only read one part of what I said. So, just to be super duper clear, let me repeat my point again (apologies to others). It is a simple point that is lost in the “it’s a dog eat dog world” orthodoxy constantly sold to us in an ideological push to justify greed and war.”

    I just asked my dog if it is true and he says it’s just Neocon propaganda, in nature dogs do not tend to eat other dogs.

    So the reality is that this is not a dog eat dog world.

  389. “Ruth Patterson was charged under the Communications Act 2003.”

    I take it her daddy isn’t a high court judge then.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/vile-threat-sent-to-girlfriend-of-rangers-1314619

  390. Don’t see much in resurrection, all seems to be a lot of twaddle, but tomb raiders in Egypt, since the latest uprising against the army, obviously, they seemingly serve whoever pays them, mainly the US during the last thirty years. But now ancient tombs are robbed, as they were pilfered by accolade seekers, western Victorian explorer’s/ researchers who stole what was not their’s then and now.

    Whether its the Elgin Marbles, aborigines heads, or Egyptian artefacts in our museums, they are all stolen.

    But what of the proposition that this is really Habbakuk?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/german-boy-finds-mummy-in-grandmothers-attic-a-914493.html

  391. Fred

    “I just asked my dog if it is true and he says it’s just Neocon propaganda, in nature dogs do not tend to eat other dogs.”

    What a clever dog you have. Or are you repeating orthodoxy sarcastically.

    Ok let me try again. Yes, you are correct, competition exists. However, there is a shed load of cooperation that goes unrecognised because of the ideologic promotion of unforgiving competition. This ideology misrepresents reality to covince you to accept greed and war as ‘natural’.

    Funny enough wild hungry dogs exactly cooperate in packs. You fail to see the larger cooperation even in your own example.

  392. Home Office may have broken the law in ‘racist’ hunt for illegal immigrants

    The excesses of the home office in promoting racism as a policy has finally dawned on some of the pundits.

    The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) said it was demanding an explanation for raids in the past week which led to the detention of dozens of suspected illegal immigrants. It said it intended to assess whether “unlawful discrimination took place” with officials only stopping non-white people.

    However even more disturbing aspect of the Home Office witch hunt has emerged:

    … in some cases of domestic violence, is the police asking the women about their citizenship status. This isn’t the purpose of their visit, they are supposed to be protecting the women.

    Considering the above, the questions arise, have there been such an investigations, by the police in other cases referred to them, ie have the police been subjecting the victims of violence or other crimes first to an immigration status check, before addressing reasons for referral to the police in the first place?

  393. That interview of Craig by BBC NI was unusual by BBC standards. Craig was allowed to speak freely and unchallenged, and the interviewer even assisted Craig in elaborating some of his points.

    Almost as if Craig were a respected member of the establishment.

    Obviously this is unusual for the BBC more generally, so media watchers need to ask themselves why.

  394. Fedup, please calm down. This is only a blog, and your repeated fuck-off-piss-off-fucking-whatever isn’t helpful even for this non-family friendly environment. It seems not to have had the effect of offending whoever you wished to offend, so the only result is that you reveal yourself to be easily wound up. So, chill-pills please.

    I can’t see what in this thread has got you annoyed. Is the Counter Revolution discussion on religion sneaking into newer posts? :)

    (I’ll get back to that thread when I have a couple of hours spare!)

  395. Herbie,

    Obviously this is unusual for the BBC more generally, so media watchers need to ask themselves why.

    My view of the ‘free press’ is that it is, paradoxically, slightly free. If (relatively) radical views such as a anti-war perpectives or anti-capitalist sentiment are permitted 1% of airtime, then such instances can be used as an example of press freedom. If the system were more efficient, and no such views could get exposure, people would more frequently comment on how view X may not be espoused in public.

    The funny thing is that this process happens automatically, rather than their being a conspiracy to arrange it. Thus, in relation to your last sentence, I don’t think the BBC necessarily got Craig past the secret censoring committee. Rather, the various mundane circumstances of which program it was, who the reporter was, and where they are based may result in the “influencers” in London not being able to stop the interview without causing themselves embarrassment.

  396. “Craig was allowed to speak freely and unchallenged, and the interviewer even assisted Craig in elaborating some of his points.”

    That’s not how it’s supposed to work! If some neo-con zionist were interviewed like that then there would be howls of outrage around here, and rightly so.

  397. lets wait and see before passing judgement on Craig’s performance Anon, no animals were hurt in the debate I trust. Lets wait if we can get a video or verbatim.

    What we can judge is Bradley Manning’s performance and we can compare it to other judgements. Just to remind us why he broke his contract and oath.

    This incident, as far as we can assume one of many others yet to be exposed, gave him the courage for the psychological revenge torture that followed during his three years in prison.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

  398. “Ok let me try again. Yes, you are correct, competition exists. However, there is a shed load of cooperation that goes unrecognised because of the ideologic promotion of unforgiving competition. This ideology misrepresents reality to covince you to accept greed and war as ‘natural’.”

    Yes, I was agreeing with you, so was Murphy.

    The ideology through the latter part of the 20th century has been based on game theory but the rules of the game did not accurately represent nature. Thus in the Prisoner’s Dilemma the rules are set so the prisoners are kept in separate cells and can’t communicate and studies showed that it was to a prisoner’s advantage to rat on his fellow prisoner. However in the real world people can communicate in which case it is very much to the prisoners’ advantage to cooperate with each other.

    It’s all a ploy by the psychopath minority to make their methods acceptable.

  399. Anon, on Craig’s easy interview:

    “That’s not how it’s supposed to work! If some neo-con zionist were interviewed like that then there would be howls of outrage around here, and rightly so.”

    Neo-con zionists are always interviewed like that, across the whole of the BBC network.

    What’s unusual is that Craig, as a dissident, was treated to similar terms in NI. This wouldn’t have happened were Craig to have been interviewed by the BBC in Britain.

    That’s why I suggested media watchers ask themselves why it seems to be different in BBC NI.

  400. I’m beginning to understand why Murrayistas are so harshly critical of the BBC. What they want is a BBC that is well to the left, that is staffed by leftists, mostly interviews left-wing guests, and then gives them an easy ride. Only then would the BBC be considered ‘fair’.

  401. Anon – rewind. Why wonder?

  402. Phil, cooperation overarches competition between competing beings. And it’s easy to see how that is. The relationship between the two might be described as two distinct shapes within a Mandelbrot pattern – for example, siblings compete within a cooperating family; families compete within a cooperating community; communities compete within a cooperating society; and societies compete within a belatedly cooperating human civilisation.

    Whether the value of one is understated while the other is over “sold” probably depends on what your chosen political readings are.

    But convincing people of the value of cooperation in a world full of liars and cheats, with a very long history of dispossessing people of the products of their labours, is a harder “sell” than convincing them of the value of competitive self-interest which is one of our first experiences in life.

    That’s because cooperative self-interest requires some surrender of competitive self-interest, so there must be sufficient trust that one’s self-interest is best served in the exchange. That’s not an easy sell when nobody owes you, me or anyone else their ‘trust’.

  403. Anon, the BBC has been aiding an abetting a ring of of paedophiles for years, including some who they have yet to discover.

    A monolith full of itself, it is akin to our local councils, indeed they are chiming in unison on many issues these days, using each other as crutches for their wretched arguments.

    Defending them, when the time is overripe with need for reform, is futile, only a vested interest could assume such ludicrous stance, or someone who is blind, deaf and mute.

  404. Thank you FJ (& Co) for outing all these devils like jake wallis,robin lustig,etc all masquerading under prim accents and faked sincerity, but all classic robert maxwell types nonetheless. The muzzies I know tell me one day even the stones and trees will inform when such devils are “masquerading” behind them !!

  405. Thanks for posting the Collateral Damage video again, Nevermind. I’m sure we can all agree that it shows evidence of a heinous war-crime.

    But I am wondering what, other than the events shown in the video (which were already public knowledge) Bradley Manning and Wikileaks have actually achieved other than to dump a load of classified material online, the overwhelming majority of which is mundane and of little interest or consequence.

    I really struggle to find anything patriotic or heroic about what Manning did – though the release of the video by itself might have led me to think that way. I find Edward Snowden’s revelations about spying on the communications of ordinary citizenry to be of far greater importance, though, as I noted in a previous post, he made a major mistake in leaking details of US spying on foreign governments, which is to be expected from any intelligence service, and which has allowed him to be cast as a traitor

  406. Jon

    I think it’s probably much more straightforward. NI really is different. Govt dirty tricks are the day and daily norm in NI, and yet more and more emerges through official investigations all the time.

    People are well used to it, and expect nothing less.

    There’s nothing to gain by attacking Craig. On the contrary it would be counter productive.

    Best BBC strategy in the circumstances is to be nice to Craig and pretend the BBC are good guys too.

    Had the BBC wanted to do a hatchet job, Noel would have done the interview. He was plucked from relative obscurity in the back rooms for, shall we say, the more challenging interviews…

  407. Hi Mark.

    RE your SAS contact operating out of Dubai.

    I was wondering if you could answer a question about your contact. Obviously, not wishing to put him in any danger, I wouldn’t want you to give a name or any personal details, so feel free to use a pseudonym such as “BravoTwoZero” and redact any details that might implicate or expose other operatives.

    My question is, are you talking out of your arse?

  408. Jon

    I should have said that I certainly take your points more generally.

    The other thing about NI is that because it’s a divided society there’s a kind of internal balance of power effect at work. It’s difficult for BBC NI to construct an overall narrative as they do in Britain, since so much is contested and contested quite vigorously and vocally.

    This is similar to the situation that existed in Britain up until the late 1980s, and I think media did a much better job in representing difference in those days.

  409. Anon, alright, if your 1:03pm post is genuine (I’m afraid I really can’t decide):

    My above assessment of the BBC (or any media outlet) was not that it should all be “leftist” – I think it should express all shades of popular, well-informed opinion. I would have thought that you would be in favour of my casting doubt on conspiracy analyses of media output, in any case?

    How the media should work is complicated, and given the economics, the ideal system is hard to achieve. Over-reliance on advertisers slides towards treating the audience as consumers, and risks treating global corporations with excessive deference; public funding has the same effect but with the government being given an easy ride instead. It is possible that a better solution would be micro-financed and operate like Wikileaks, but I don’t know whether that model is sustainable.

    I think the work of Herman and Chomsky, Media Lens and the Glasgow Media Group are well worth consideration in understanding the dynamics of disseminating “acceptable” ideas as well as thinking about how culture is shaped. I recommend “Will the revolution be televised?” by John Molyneux – a Marxist analysis that should be of interest for socialists and non-socialists alike.

    There’s a lot of propagandist components of the BBC, but I take the view that most of it is a feedback loop from existing culture, rather than a specifically state-engineered system of thought control. The hype around the royal baby and the Queen’s Jubilee are psychologically reassuring expressions of tribal belonging and subconscious cultural superiority, despite the trail of murder and pillage that such a system represents. I’m firmly anti-monarchy, but I’m in agreement with Craig that the Queen is probably quite a decent person given her upbringing.

    The royal baby stories I think could have been reasonably balanced with discussion shows and documentaries critical of the monarchy, reflecting the 20% of Britons who would like to see the back of it. But part of the problem in commissioning such a piece is that, rather like criticising “our boys in battle”, it does not do so well for editors’ careers, or that it feels too anti-establishment in a polite, refined, middle-class environment like the Beeb. If we could redress this sort of imbalance I wonder if some people would lend their political support to war, poverty, capitalism, monarchy etc much more critically, rather than in the ways they do now.

  410. The BBC is institutionally infested with an alliance of cohens and boadens, each side plugging the others agenda. Its that simple, rantzen scratching saviles back and savile in turn advising the israeli cabinet!

  411. Anon – No.

  412. Herbie claims:

    “Neo-con zionists are always interviewed like that, across the whole of the BBC network.”

    I’m afraid I don’t see it like that. What you want is for neo-con zionists to be torn to shreds and “dissidents” to be given an easy ride. Anything else is evidence of bias in your warped view. The right accuses the BBC of left-wing bias and the left accuses it of right-wing bias, so it must be doing something right. On Israel/Palestine, you lot call it the ‘ZBC’ and on right-wing sites they call it ‘Al-Beebera’.

  413. Anon

    The evidence of BBC bias in favour of Israeli policy is clear for all to see. There was a time up until Mark Thompson took over when even the BBC could not fail to highlight the occasional injustice against the Palestinians, but that all changed after Mr Thompson’s visit to Tel Aviv.

    Only a fool or liar or both would claim that the BBC is left wing or pro Palestinian today. It hasn’t been anything like that since 1987, and up until then only by way of balance.

  414. Anon – if you can extricate yourself from your left-right bubble you may gain some insight in geo-politics esp. as regards to proxy warfare and combat.

  415. Thanks for quoting Molineux Jon, and for advancing the arguments for reform.
    Understanding the BBC has taken many of us decades, its not about that anymore.

    In an age of dubious information gains a truly public broadcaster should be seen to be above board, just as a tax inspector asked for a paper trail, the BBC should be accountable for each and every penny of their expenses, without prompting, in within the latter two words hinges the crux of the affair, TRUST, it has bee eroded exponentially and criminal activities have become part of it., so time for reform is overdue, imho.

    In the age of managing consent, an institution as the BBC, exposed to various propaganda channels for years and integrated with this Countries secret services, has become remote from its public broadcasting brief. I dispute that it is in the public interest to ‘slew and spew’, to say it mildly, whatever is presented by the western media barons and lobby groups. After decades of ‘not much change at all’ the BBC has become nepotistic in its staffing and in its allegiances, not at all independent or pro public interest, unless we meant to understand the establishment view being presented as public interest.

    I’m not surprised that you don’t think it being patriotic to expose one’s own countries atrocities to those who regularly fed BS by eyewasher’s, apologists and proponents for any type of heinous crime.

    You will just have to live with your own views Anon, and for the sake of your mental senity, I very much that you are still able to change your mind when you see that facts overwhelming, relevant and appropriately addressed.

    Why live like a turnip?

  416. ‘ meant to say ‘sanity’.

  417. Hi Jon!

    I had difficulty making sense of the excessive royal baby coverage on the Beeb. Given that the Beeb’s staff are overwhelmingly of a soft-left persuasion, and probably republican, I would have thought, like you, that a lot of airtime could’ve been given to anti-monarchy campaigners.

    My suspicion is that, given the duties of a public broadcaster, the only way the Beeb could get its message across was to saturate us with so much nauseating hype that we all felt thoroughly sick by the end of it. If you think about it, they had the whole country, monarchists and republicans alike, yelling at their TV sets, “Who the hell bloody well cares?!”

    Now if that isn’t a broadcasting conspiracy, I don’t know what is.

  418. “The evidence of BBC bias in favour of Israeli policy is clear for all to see.”

    That’s a bit like saying “Everyone knows…”.

    “Only a fool or liar or both would claim…”

    Ditto.

  419. Mark Golding says:

    may gain some insight in geo-politics esp. as regards to proxy warfare and combat.

    Come on the weltanschauung of an asinine product of dis-education cannot flex that far, you are living in the hopes of miracles.

    Also Mark what is happening with Erik Prince these days, any news on him?

  420. Mark asks:

     ”if you can extricate yourself from your left-right bubble”

    Don’t pretend to be above it, Mark. You are a left-winger, espousing left-wing views on a left-wing blog.

  421. Nevermind laments

    “You will just have to live with your own views Anon”

    Is this the best you can do in response to the points I addressed to you in my post of 1:18 pm.?

  422. Anon, if I agreed with:

    ‘That’s a bit like saying “Everyone knows…”.

    “Only a fool or liar or both would claim…”

    Ditto.’

    that would make two of us wrong. Quite clearly the BBC is owned by the Neocon/Zionists or it would give balanced reports rather than portraying Palestinians, Iraqis, or other predominantly Muslim people as aggressors and the real aggressors Israel and the US as goodies. When I was young at the matinee cinema cowboys were portrayed as goodies while indians (native Americans were portrayed as baddies. When the cavalry came an appreciative roar went up in the cinema. You need to grow up to learn that the indians were the goodies and the cowboys were stealing their land. The cowboys are still stealing the land of other countries with more powerful weapons. You are clearly on the cowboys side, and therefore need to grow up!

  423. “Quite clearly…”

    Ditto.

  424. Don’t come that Anon. Quote the sentence.

  425. Sorry you must know where Anon (aka Giles)is coming from, before engaging, otherwise you will end up talking yiddish too !

  426. I don’t believe the sentence is correct. Anyone with half a brain can see its nonsense!

  427. Anon. You accuse people of making wishy washy statements and make them yourself.

    “Anyone with half a brain can see its nonsense!”

  428. By the way not only is the sentence “correct” but the comment too!

  429. Er, yes John. Well spotted.

  430. doug scorgie

    3 Aug, 2013 - 3:18 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    2 Aug, 2013 – 10:26 pm

    To Doug Scorgie:

    “YOU ARE WRONG; UNDER CURRENT LEGISLATION, OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WERE DOING AT KENSAL GREEN”

    What current legislation is that Habbabkuk? You don’t say for some reason.

    Stop and question: police powers
    A police officer has powers to stop you at any time and ask you:
    • what you’re doing
    • why you’re in an area and/or where you’re going
    However, you don’t have to answer any questions the police officer asks you.
    https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights

    “THAT IS CORRECT. BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY HERE.”

    Habbabkuk, the border agency officers have no more powers than the police.

    IT WAS LEGAL AND I BELIEVE IT WAS PROPORTIONATE: FIRSTLY, THERE IS A GREATER CHANCE THAT YOU WILL FIND ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS IN AREAS LIKE KENSAL GREEN THAN, FOR EXAMPLE,IN THE LEAFY SPACES OF SURREY … SECONDLY, ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE DARK-SKINNED THAN WHITE – BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE FROM CERTAIN COUNTRIES THAN FROM OTHERS.

    What you say there is racial profiling on the bases of random checks not on reasonable suspicion of wrong-doing. That is what makes it illegal.

    The police and the Border Agents do not have the right to demand identification unless they suspect that someone is committing an offence or they believe they have committed an offence.

    “I AGAIN REPEAT THAT THE OFFICIALS OF THE BORDER AGENCY WERE ACTING WITHIN THEIR POWERS…” What powers Habbabkuk? Inform us.

    “SECONDLY, EVEN IF IT HAD BEEN THE POLICE, THEY WOULD HAVE ACTED ON THE BELIEF THAT THE PERSONS ASKED TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES HAD COMMITTED AN OFFENCE, NAMELY THAT OF BEING IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.”

    Poppycock!

    What would make the police believe that the people being asked to identify themselves had committed an offence? Being black? Is that what you call reasonable suspicion?

    “CERTAIN FACILITIES AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC REQUIRE IDENTIFICATION.”

    Yes but that does not include having to identify yourself to the police if they have no reasonable grounds to demand you do so.

    “YES I DO BELIEVE IT IS A MATTER OR PUBLIC CONCERN”

    So do I Habbabkuk, but you fail to answer what I said. Would it be the anti-immigrant propaganda by the government aided by the right-wing MSM that is making it a matter of public concern?

    The Daily Mail: Propagating misinformation about immigrants.
    Again.
    On Monday 14 Feb, the front page of the Daily Mail pronounced: ‘Thousands of illegal workers claiming benefits: Loophole in the law costs taxpayers millions’. But by Thursday it became clear that this wasn´t a real expose of ‘welfare abuse’ rather another cynical attempt to propagate misinformation about immigrants.

    THIS EXAMPLE IS A TRUE RED HERRING FROM YOU.

    Don’t be stupid Habbabkuk. The above is merely one example of many that you can find regarding the negative attitude towards migrants in the MSM.

    WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IMPLEMETING THE LAW OF THE LAND AND NOT WHAT THE DAILY MAIL – WHICH DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE GOVT – IS SAYING.

    Another scare headline for you Habbabkuk:

    “350,000 Bulgarians and Romanians ‘looking for work in the UK”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10009654/350000-Bulgarians-and-Romanians-looking-for-work-in-the-UK.html

    Even if they all turned up they would be legal immigrants obeying “the law of the land.”

    “I DON’T THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION”

    Yes I have: Electioneering ploys are by nature lies whether it be on the NHS or Trident or immigration. However there is deep seated racism among many white Brits and it is an emotive subject (like sectarianism) that can be manipulated by the state to divide and rule.

    “WHO IS TRYING TO DIVIDE WHOM FROM WHOM AND TO WHAT PURPOSE?”

    Why do you ask a question, the answer to which you must already know. In case you don’t know the answer:

    divide and conquer/rule:

    a way of keeping yourself in a position of power by making the people under you disagree with each other so that they are unable to join together and remove you from your position

    http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Divide+and+rule

    Prevention is better than cure is it not. But job cuts to Customs, Coast Guards and the Border Agency have led to an increase in smuggling, whether of drugs or people. The gates have been left unattended to save money.

    “NO, I DON’T BELIEVE THAT THIS IS TRUE…”

    What do you not believe to be true? Prevention is better than cure or job cuts have had an adverse effect?

    “ILLEGAL ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS – AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY OUT OF GETTING INTO THE COUNTRY – ARE PRETTY DETERMINED AND CUNNING PEOPLE AND NO BORDER CONTROLS ARE 100% EFFECTIVE (UNFORTUNATELY)”

    Yes, and the less staff to police the situation and the removal of funding has had a detrimental effect on border control.

    “TO SAY THAT THE GATES ARE LEFT UNATTENDED IS A GROSS MISREPRESENTATION”

    The gates have been left unattended was not meant to be taken literally as I’m sure you know.

    “IT IS IN ANY EVENT SILLY TO TAKE A POSITION WHICH SAYS THAT IF SOMEONE GETS PAST BORDER CONTROL SUCCESSFULLY HE SHOULD BE LEFT IN PEACE THEREAFTER.”

    I don’t hold that position and I didn’t imply that in my post. Please don’t misrepresent me.

    “THERE YOU GO, MR SCORGIE, BONNE LECTURE ( I’M ASSUMING YOU WROTE AS THE SPOKESPERSON FOR OTHERS AND THAT THEREFORE NOBODY ELSE WILL STICK THEIR HEAD ABOVE THE PARAPET)”

    I only speak for myself Habbabkuk.

  431. Anon

    Were there any examples of BBC bias in favour of Palestinians, that you’d like to share?

    Or is it difficult to find such examples?

  432. John, if you like I’ll find you an equally dotty site, though of a right-wing persuasion, where you will find lines like:

    “Clearly the BBC is owned by the Leftists/Muslims or it would give balanced reports rather than portraying Americans, British or other predominantly Western people as aggressors.”

    In fact, I am going to post that and let you know how many recommends it scores!

  433. Herbie, the idea that the BBC is pro-Israel is a smoke-screen put about to cloud the reality – that the Beeb is not especially biased one way or the other, though individual journalists may slip up from time to time and reveal support for one side or the other. My contention is that the BBC is neither pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel, but don’t let that stop you making assumptions! And I use as evidence for my contention the fact that both sides accuse it of bias towards the other.

  434. Anon, what you use as evidence is not evidence. Just because somebody says something does not make it right. Take a look at your butchering of a sentence of mine at 3.26 pm.

  435. Stuck in a bog out East Passerby writing a memoir trying to change history. – dickhead!

  436. Exactly, John. Claims that the BBC is pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian are just hot air. Loons on both sides just can’t tolerate the BBC not conforming with their view, hence ZBC / Al-Beebera.

  437. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 4:01 pm

    For rent.

    Driveway to accommodate two cars Monday to Friday when occupier is at work in Westminster. Near Brentwood town centre.
    Not available August/September.

    Rent negotiable.

    Cash payment only.

    Signed E.Pickles

    ~~~
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Pickles

    Second Home
    ‘On 26 March 2009, Pickles appeared on the political debate programme Question Time in Newcastle upon Tyne. While discussing the controversy over Tony McNulty (who had recently admitted claiming expenses on a second home, occupied by his parents, only 8 miles away from his primary residence), Pickles admitted he claimed a second home allowance because he lived 37 miles from Westminster and needed to leave his constituency house in Brentwood at 5.30 am in order to get to Westminster for 9.30 am, given that he tended to get home at midnight or 1 am, although the standard time for commuters from this region is usually ninety minutes. He went on to say that it was “no fun” commuting into London from where he lived. In response to Pickles’s comments that he “had to be there [the House of Commons] on time”, Question Time host David Dimbleby, replied “Like a job, in other words?” prompting amusement amongst the audience.

    There were also remarks from the audience about nurses and firemen etc. having to commute across London and get to their jobs on time and having to do without a second home.

    Pickles was asked to pay back £300 following the MP’s expenses scandal, which he had claimed for cleaning.’

    More laughter is heard from the back row.

  438. This is an urgent message for Mark Golding.

    Mark, my sources have confirmed that 100, 000 British troops are on the Israeli border with Syria, preparing for a full-scale land invasion. As they used to say when I was at Hereford, ‘Who Dares, Wins’, and it seems like the boys are up for it. I can confirm that this information is from a top-level source here in Dubai with whom I have established channels of communication by posing as a barman at the ******* Hotel (sorry for the redaction, Mark, but I can’t risk losing my sources). I will keep you updated as events proceed.

    Repeat: 150, 000 American troops on Iraqi border with Syria.

    Stay safe.

    BravoTwoZero,
    Dubai.

  439. 100,000 British troops, 150,000 American troops… ermm… which one is it?

  440. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 4:21 pm

    Pickles used to claim £18k-£19k for ‘staying away from London costs’ 11-12 years ago. Now £4k+.

    Interesting. Reined in. Perhaps he had abandoned the second home unless he is camping out on College Green.

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/eric_pickles/brentwood_and_ongar#register

  441. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 4:42 pm

    Too many players makes for a complicated game.

    http://www.jpost.com/Defense/US-leaks-on-IAF-Syria-strikes-could-be-attempt-to-harm-Israels-interests-321874

    “The American leaks have raised concerns among some observers in Israel that Syrian President Bashar Assad would be unable to refrain from responding to the attacks due to the embarrassment he would incur.

    “The mere fact that such leaks happen often indicates that the Pentagon leadership does not have Israel’s interests at heart,” Prof. Efraim Inbar, director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar-Ilan University, told The Jerusalem Post. “It is difficult to assess the motivation of such leaks.”

    Inbar listed several possible motives, including the wish to prevent future Israeli action.

    Other possibilities include an attempt by Pentagon sources to embarrass US President Barack Obama, by pointing out the “ease” with which Israel allegedly operates in Syria at a time that the White House says US intervention is too complex and risky.”

  442. Anon “Claims that the BBC is pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian are just hot air.”

    You live in another world from me. When Billy 16 pints called Israel’s response in killing something in the region of 1,000 Yemeni civilians as revenge for the killing of some 6 Israeli soldiers “disproportionate” Israeli sponsors withdrew donations to the Tory party to bring them, and their main propaganda station (the BBC), back into line. It’s been like that ever since.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9740044/The-cowardice-at-the-heart-of-our-relationship-with-Israel.html

  443. 1, 000 Yemeni soldiers?

    William Hague isn’t the BBC, John.

  444. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 4:55 pm

    There is almost no mainstream outlets discussing Takfiri, other than Press TV. Google takfiri.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/07/30/316381/takfiri-ideology-benefits-us-israel/

    “The Saudi-backed Takfiri ideology is designed to safeguard the interests of the United States and Israel by causing division in the Muslim world, a political analyst tells Press TV.

    Massoud Shadjareh said on Tuesday that the Takfiri ideology is designed to “get Muslims” to fight and kill Muslims.

    He pointed to bloodletting in Iraq since the US occupation in 2003, saying that the Takfiri ideology “was actually a deliberate policy to create this conflict, so the United States, as the occupier, will actually not be the main target and you will get this sort of internal fighting within Iraq.”

    “Many think tanks in the United States … including the RAND (Research and Development) Corporation have been arguing that one of the ways to deal with the rise of political Islam is to, actually, have these different aspects of political Islam [to] fight one another,” Shadjareh pointed out.

  445. B2Z civilians or soldiers – makes no difference to Israeli’s and Yanks. Yep, the government media outlet is the BBC. Don’t you guys ever watch it?

  446. Anything that’s amassing is on the other side of the country, rather than the south. Turkish and Syrian troop movements nearer to their respective borders, the siting of Patriots on the behest of NATO, all points to a northern flagration.
    troops amasing in Syria

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/29/223384.html

    This will be additional to a southern attack/false flag, provocation of sorts by our Muslim brotherhood and Al Nusra friends and then some, as some troops seemingly have become ‘free’ as MNF-1, the remnants of NATO’s multinational force has to leave Iraq by 31.July 2013.

    And just to ensure that we know who is putting pressure on for radical action in the middle east and the biggest bully of all, this from Derfner

    http://972mag.com/defending-israel-down-to-the-last-drop-of-israeli-blood/36370/

  447. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 5:39 pm

    Twitter’s UK Manager Tony Wang responds on the abusive messaging.

    http://blog.uk.twitter.com/2013/08/our-commitment.html

    and

    https://twitter.com/TonyW

    Stella Creasey MP is not very impressed with the response.

  448. “Yep, the government media outlet is the BBC. Don’t you guys ever watch it?”

    I don’t have a TV myself.

    I saw their Power of Nightmares documentaries on the net.

  449. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 5:48 pm

    An excellent essay on the duplicity of B.Liar.

    Tony Blair: Libya, Lockerbie, Arms and Betrayals
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/08/tony-blair-libya-lockerbie-arms-and-betrayals-2/

  450. well, except, and I hereby correct myself, the 180.000 still left in Iraq, have been reprieved by the devil Bolton himself, for another year.

    http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=4147

  451. Congratulations to President Rouhani of Iran, starting in his job today, his first few words setting out a more transparent and trusting agenda.

    http://www.platts.com/news-feature/2013/oil/iran/index

    The response is crucial, because Iran wants to see sanctions dismantled one by one. They are also adamant that they will not stop their research and enrichment. Now contrast this with the rabid responses of nuking desert locations, just that little bit away from inhabited area’s in Iran, with a cynical inevitability thrown in for good measure. Hard liner’s in Israel are calling the shots and it is inevitable that for change to happen these attitudes have to be tackled head on.

    Their views are not acceptable! And the shady ‘Macher’ fanatics, who are always there to fan the paranoia, spread some fear and loathing in this rogue country, to manage and direct its electorate, have done this for decades, an escalating fact, not something anybody has control over, not the US, NATO or the UN.

    So what is to be done? follow thy mad psychopath into global Armageddon? or set out condition on the back of the current peace talks between Palestinians and a belligerent Israeli Government which can not be broken.

  452. BrianFujisan

    3 Aug, 2013 - 6:29 pm

    Aye Fedup

    just a couple of years ago i caught up on the horrific u.s. uk war crimes in Dresden

    “You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.” –Kurt Vonnegut, J

    On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time.

    The death toll was staggering. The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000 — possibly as many as a half a million — persons died within a 14-hour period, whereas estimates of those who died at Hiroshima range from 90,000 to 140,000

    If ever there was a war crime, then certainly the Dresden Holocaust ranks as the most sordid one of all time.

    AND THE Hamburg Fireboming

    On July 24, 9PM the allies bombed Hamburg with high explosive, incendiary, phosphorous and napalm bombs. The resulting firestorm was so powerful that buildings would have flames reaching over 20 feet high.
    ‘With hurricane force, 150 mile per-hour winds were sucked into the oxygen vacuum created by the fire, ripping trees out by their roots, collapsing buildings, pulling children out of their mothers’ arms. Twenty square miles of the city centre burned in an inferno that would rage for nine full days. … The temperature in the firestorm reached 1,400 degrees Fahrenheit. There was no oxygen to breathe; whatever was flammable burst spontaneously into flame.’

    Air Vice Marshall Harris stated, “In spite of all that happened at Hamburg, bombing proved a relatively humane method … there is no proof that most casualties were women and children.” German records indicate, however, that 29,000 of those killed were women (21k) and children (8k), the other 13,000 were men.

  453. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 6:47 pm

    Yeah, Brian. Dresden was a war crime. It was pure revenge. General Curtis LeMay get credit for that and complicity in the murder of JFK along with Dulles et al.

  454. “The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000 — possibly as many as a half a million — persons died within a 14-hour period”

    According to Wiki:

    “In March 1945, the Nazi regime ordered its press to publish a falsified casualty figure of 200,000 for the Dresden raids, and death toll estimates as high as 500,000 have been given. However the city authorities at the time estimated no more than 25,000 victims, a figure which subsequent investigations, including one commissioned by the city council in 2010, support.”

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
    http://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/infoblaetter/Historikerkommission_Dresden1945_Abschlussbericht_V1_14a.pdf

    [Mod/Jon: Anon, please stick to one handle]

  455. BrianFujisan

    3 Aug, 2013 - 7:09 pm

    Evil Bastards were at it in North Korea too

    Besides rape, the Pentagon was firebombing North Korean cities more intensively than any of those it firebombed during World War II. Where it was typical for U.S. bombing to destroy between 40 and 50 percent of a city in that war, the destruction rate in North Korea was much higher: Shin Eui Ju, on the Chinese border, 95 percent destroyed; Pyongyang, 85 percent; and Hamhung, an industrial city, 80 percent.”By the end of 1951, there weren’t many bombing targets left in North Korea.”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-korean-war-the-unknown-war-the-coverup-of-us-war-crimes/23742

  456. “Yeah, Brian. Dresden was a war crime. It was pure revenge.”

    It was seen as a crime by the people of Britain at the time, airmen who served in Bomber Command were not given campaign medals.

    It wasn’t pure revenge, we were fighting a war, it’s just that by this time it wasn’t Germany we were fighting it was Russia.

  457. Thank you Brian Fujisan for reminding people of the madness of Bomber Harris and the futility of mass bombing as a political tool.
    My home city of Hamburg was turned to rubble, providing young nevermind with bricks to clean by the thousands, it was a far better option than to play amongst the rats a foot long. That he lost thousands of his airmen because of his policy did never enter his mind, nor did the fire bombing of Hamburg or Dresden. My granddad wept when he was shooting at the aircraft, he told me so, his words were ‘like shooting at chickens in a cage’.
    When he saw the aircraft flying overhead and made visible by powerful lights and their own ‘christmas trees’ phosphorous bombs falling on the City.

    Hamburg has had some targets, U boat bunkers at Blohm and Voss and Howald, but they were mostly located around the harbour, why Barmbek, a part of Hamburg was bombed, when there was sweet FA, a purely civilian area is inexplicable and callous.

    The Madness that is war

  458. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 7:16 pm

    Peres’ 90th Birthday ZBC tribute.

    I did not see it. Switched off guessing what it would be like. John Hilley on Medialens links it here.

    Newsnight on Peres ‘the dove’
    Posted by John Hilley on August 3, 2013, 11:11 am

    A truly grovelling piece from the appalling Lyse Doucet, celebrating the Zionist veteran and indulging the ‘Peres peace persona’.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b037yp9q/Newsnight_02_08_2013/ (20.25 in)

    Classic BBC hagiography.

  459. Anon, you’re welcome to give a serious answer to my post, addressing the points I raised, if you wish to join in.

  460. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 7:32 pm

    16 arrests by Sussex Police at Balcombe. Egan of Cuadrilla is allowed to give out the propaganda.

    Balcombe oil drill protesters arrested
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23471136

    Cuadrilla is not some one bit oil drilling company. It is part of a global conglomeration of AJ Lucas a giant Australian company involved in pipelines, drilling and engineering construction.
    http://www.lucas.com.au/
    and Riverstone LLC a private equity outfit involved in power and energy supply.
    http://www.riverstonellc.com/

  461. “Chevron wins access to some Americans’ email data”

    http://money.msn.com/now/post–chevron-wins-access-to-some-americans-email-data

  462. Flaming June

    3 Aug, 2013 - 8:38 pm

    Pickles was once a director of the Conservative Party Foundation Ltd. – Functionaries, chairman, treasurers, donors etc.

    http://companycheck.co.uk/company/05289086/THE-CONSERVATIVE-PARTY-FOUNDATION-LIMITED/directors-shareholders#people

    See Mark Bamford there, brother of the recently ennobled Sir Anthony Bamford, donor.
    http://unlockdemocracy.org.uk/blog/entry/donor-of-the-week-jcb-and-the-bamford-brothers

    The list of new Tory peers which takes the total number of peers to over 800 is below.

    •Richard Balfe – former MEP and Conservative Party Envoy to the Trade Unions and Cooperative movement
    •Sir Anthony Bamford DL – Chairman and Managing Director of JCB
    •Nicholas Bourne – former Leader of the Conservative Group in the National Assembly for Wales
    •Matthew Carrington – former Conservative MP
    •Daniel Finkelstein OBE – Associate Editor of The Times and former Head of Policy for the Conservative party
    •Annabel Goldie DL MSP – Conservative Member of the Scottish Parliament; former Leader of the Scottish Conservatives
    •Lady (Fiona) Hodgson CBE – campaigner on women’s issues; senior member of the Conservative voluntary Party; former Chairman of the Conservative Women’s Organisation
    •Christopher (Chris) Holmes MBE – former Paralympic swimmer; Director of Paralympic Integration at London 2012; Non-Executive Director of the Equality and Human Rights Commission; and a former Non-Executive Director of the Disability Rights Commission
    •John Horam – former MP; Conservative representative on the Electoral Commission
    •Howard Leigh – senior corporate finance professional; Conservative Party Treasurer; former Chairman and current President of Westminster Synagogue; former Trustee of Jewish Care and current Chairman of Jewish Care’s Business Group; Trustee of the Jerusalem Foundation in the UK
    •Dame Lucy Neville-Rolfe CMG – former senior civil servant, including Number 10 Policy Unit; former leading Executive at Tesco Plc
    •Sir Stephen Sherbourne – longstanding political career in Westminster and public affairs, including former Political Secretary to the then Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher), and former Chief of Staff to the then Leader of the Opposition (Michael Howard)
    •Michael (Mike) Whitby – Conservative Councillor in Birmingham; former Leader of Birmingham City Council
    •Susan Williams – former Councillor and Leader of Trafford Council

  463. Brian, DPRK people suffered a great deal, during the MacArthur onslaught on the “commies”. There are too many mass graves of the prisoners of war who were shot dead and buried in the roadside graves the numbers of which to date are not known. Too often the blood thirsty bastards glorify the filthy business of murder and destruction, as some kin of a fucking achievement.

    Nevermind, having seen the Trümmerfrau statue in the mid town square in Dresden and having heard the fact that men were all killed, and the city had to be built by the women whom were left. The horror stories of rapes, hunger, and desolate hopelessness, which were the currency in Dresden of 1945, were all too much for my companion whom had to stop and walk away and compose herself, for her to come back and guide me to Frauenkirche. During that visit Frauenkirche was still left as it was a bombed out shell, although these days the church is rebuilt.

  464. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 9:14 pm

    @ Fedup

    “The horror stories of rapes, hunger, and desolate hopelessness, which were the currency in Dresden of 1945,..”
    ______________

    Shhhhh! The rapes were carried out by Russian, not American soldiers. Don’t spoil the narrative, there’s a good Eminence!

  465. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 9:17 pm

    re new peers :

    could the frequent poster (20h38) please let us have a list of the new Labour and LibDem peers as well, please?

    thank you!

  466. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    3 Aug, 2013 - 9:24 pm

    @ Someone

    Seeing your post just now reminded me : have to taken any steps (as suggested by me) to follow up on the case of Mr Alex Cline?

    You know, the university lecturer who has apparently been charged with insulting behaviour for shouting “coward” at the local Tory MP?

    You posted on this affair a few days ago and seemed very indignant.

    Any developments? Have the magistrates pronounced?

  467. There was a discussion earlier about competition and/or cooperation and their relative merits.

    There’s quite a good presentation here of how these things work in practise:

    http://www.vice.com/read/michael-sandel-interview

  468. 59 Stat. 1544-1589 bloopers

    4 Aug, 2013 - 1:00 am

    Remember back when CIA sprung the honey trap on Petraeus, and everybody was fixated on the slapstick image of the little shrimp stubbing his diminutive John Thomas on the steely, hirsute loins of Zionazi warrior princess Paula Broadwell?

    One tidbit of Broadwell’s pillow talk was pretty great, but it sank without a ripple in all the clownish lust. Broadwell let drop that Bengazi was a covert detention site. Given that disappearance is a per se breach of the Convention Against Torture, Obama’s enemy-of-all-mankind rap sheet now includes, not just acquiescence to torture, in breach of Article 1; not mere refusal to investigate, in Breach of Article 12; we now have President Obama implicated, as head of the US civilian-military command structure, in perpetuating the crime against humanity of the US government torture gulag.

    The petty criminals are ratting out the big fish, and CIA is panicking. Just in time for review by the Committee Against Torture.

    Craig’s talk might turn out to be quite timely.

  469. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Aug, 2013 - 1:45 am

    Fred; I really don’t have a dog in this hunt.

    My impression wrt WWII History was that Dresden was payback to the German public for the opinion of the bloodiest and most psychopathic military minds, was that they were largely supportive of the policies, or at least enabled. Those flinty foreheads won the debate on whether to destroy a non-military target. It was in fact, a symbol of pride to Germany for it’s architecture and artful culture.

    They unleashed an an ungodly tonnage of incendiary creating firestorms within the city which were the match of Hiroshima in fury and atavistic pride.

  470. @ Flaming June.

    Excellent Blair article there, worth reading. Truly the man is a case study, he never ceases to amaze. I wish I were alive in 100 years (if humanity still exists) to see the release of classified material relating to one Tony B. Liar. I’m sure it’s fascinating. I wonder how many British PM’s in history have had a classifiable mental illness? I’ve no idea what Blair’s problems are, though it’s clear they are very serious indeed, but I suspect our beloved securitat (who protect us, thanks) have covered up for more than one PM. In the national interest old boy, of course.

    And the not-invasion of LIbya remains one of the most bizarre episodes in UK history; I still don’t understand why we did it. Capitalist Deals, most likely. The editors of Pravda probably now think they didn’t go far enough …

  471. @Brendan

    the truth will out sooner than you think – a Charles Lynton aka Miranda was found importuning in a Bow Street public toilet and easily recruited by the CIA, they even paid for his college banger. Whilst wishing not to enter the cause n effect, I can foresee a new phenomenon, akin to a citizens arrest. a citizens enhanced interrogation video of kidnapped 911 and like suspects, for the whole world to plainly see the truth on YouTube. And there are many suspects who may be easily apprehended, from Sundar to Silverstein.

  472. “an alliance of cohens”, Hasbarista.

    What? Men in tall hats? Or do you have something against people with that surname?

    I always thought BBC staff overwhelmingly have been accused by the Right of being metropolitan closet lefties. An ‘alliance of luvvies’, perhaps? There was a time – the Cold War – when MI5 used to vet all job applicants for the BBC and people would be refused posts on the basis that they knew someone who knew someone who knew an ex-communist. There are structural biases and the Iraq/David Kelly/Greg Dyke de facto sacking by the intelligence services’ placewoman on the Board of Governors farrago destroyed what was left of the BBC’s independence. The Glasgow Media Group also demonstrated widespread media bias in the UK – not just in the BBC – wrt reportage of the Palestine-Israel situation. There are serious points to be made here and references to “an alliance of Cohens” are at best, distracting and at worst, racist.

    I agree with Jon’s analysis.

  473. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 8:16 am

    More on fracking and the hidden connections. We live in a system that is corrupt.

    Lord Browne of Madingley is an Agent Cameron adviser. He is also a director of Riverstone LLC, who are behind Cuadrilla with A J Lucas.

    ‘A clear conflict of interest? Cuadrilla chairman, Riverstone’s managing partner and senior government advisor are one and the same person
    August 3rd, 2013 by PCU

    Baron Browne of Madingley, chairman of Cuadrilla & managing partner at Riverstone Holdings, the venture capital firm that backs Cuadrilla, is also acting as a senior government advisor.

    The government has now issued 176 exploratory drilling licences nationwide and Michael Fallon, the energy minister, has hailed shale gas as “an exciting new potential energy resource”.’
    http://political-cleanup.org/?p=7592

    Nick Griffiths who is a Guildford borough councillor does the PR for Cuadrilla. On his register of interests, we merely says he is a ‘Self employed public relations consultant’. He does not give details of his clients of course. http://www.guildford.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=9975&lnk=45

    He used to be the lead member for the environment on the council!!
    http://gasdrillinginbalcombe.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/cuadrilla-in-private-eye.pdf

    Read here about the thousands of gallons of hydrochloric acid that will be used if fracking takes place in Balcombe. Would Agent Cameron like this happening in his Oxfordshire home or even Mr Griffiths in his home in Guildford borough? Definitely not.
    http://gasdrillinginbalcombe.wordpress.com/news/

  474. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 8:28 am

    The remainder of the list of new peers. You can see another connection to Israel. Mendelson* was chair of Labour Friends of Israel. Do not look for any peers with Palestinian connections though.

    Green party
    •Jenny Jones AM – member of the London Assembly; former Chair of the Green party of England and Wales and former Deputy Mayor of London

    Labour party
    •Sir Charles Allen CBE – Non-Executive Director of the London Organising Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games; Chairman of Global Radio Group
    •Sir William Haughey OBE – prominent Scottish businessman and CEO of City Refrigeration Holdings
    •Alicia Kennedy – former Deputy General Secretary of the Labour party
    •Doreen Lawrence OBE – campaigner for justice, race equality and better policing
    •Jonathan (Jon) Mendelsohn – business advisor and co-founder of LLM Communications

    Liberal Democrat party
    •Catherine (Cathy) Mary Bakewell MBE – former leader of Somerset County Council
    •Rosalind (Olly) Grender MBE – former Director of Communications for Shelter; former Director of Communications for the Liberal Democrats
    •Christine Mary Humphreys – President of the Welsh Liberal Democrats; former Member of the National Assembly for Wales
    •Zahida Manzoor CBE – former Legal Services Ombudsman; former Deputy Chair of the Commission for Racial Equality
    •Brian Paddick – former Deputy Assistant Commissioner in the Metropolitan Police Service
    •James Palumbo – co-founder and chairman of Ministry of Sound Group, the international music and entertainment business
    •Jeremy Purvis – former Member of the Scottish Parliament for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale
    •Alison Suttie – former Press Secretary to the President of the European Parliament; former Deputy Chief of Staff to Nick Clegg and Election Manager for the 2010 General Election
    •Rumi Verjee CBE – entrepreneur and philanthropist
    •Sir Ian Wrigglesworth – Liberal Democrat Treasurer; former MP for Teesside Thornaby and for Stockton South

    *More on Mendelson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Mendelsohn
    Remember Draper/Abrahams? Friend of Lord Levy. HET. New Israel Fund etc etc. I see his wife heads up Facebook’s European operations.

  475. And Jenny Jones (Green Party), and Doreen Lawrence…? I don’t agree with the British aristocratic system in the first place and the honours system is deeply corrupt – everyone, it seems, is to become a baron and to be co-opted – but Baroness Lawrence might be able to do some good now? Tokenistic? Yes, of course. And yet… Generally, people with “Palestinian connections” (by which I assume you mean those who actively support the Palestinian cause) would tend not to want to become lords and ladies of the realm. ‘Lord George Galloway’? ‘Lord Dennis Canavan’? I think not. The Israel lobby has power and inside connections, most definitely, but if out of this long list, one can find only one with strong connections to that lobby, might it not suggest that it is simply one interest among many?

  476. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 8:41 am

    Brendan I appreciate your comments but in B.Liar’s case, I do not think that psychopathy is a treatable mental illness.

  477. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 8:50 am

    Is the ‘voice of the Tory party’ and the latterly appointed energy minister off his trolley?

    Michael Fallon defends fracking comments
    Mr Fallon has described fracking as an “exciting new energy resource”

    Energy minister Michael Fallon has defended comments about fracking, in which he suggested drilling could disrupt the home lives of media commentators in southern England.

    Mr Fallon told a private meeting it would test “how thick their rectory walls are” and “whether they like the flaring at the end of the drive”.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23565258#

    ~~~
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=10194
    Visits – UAE, Bahrain, Ukraine, Cayman Islands, S Korea, Hong Kong, Syria. Egypt, etc etc.

  478. Wrt energy supplies in the real world, short of global de-industrialisation (which broadly is what India and China, Brazil et al accuse the West or promoting in their cases) what would your preferred solution be? Nuclear? Fossil? Maximising renewables? Fusion is not at the stage of being useful. All three, so the proverbial eggs are not all in one basket? All are driven by the energy industry, obviously, all have political and military implications and all except renewables have potential risks. But renewables on their own, even if maximised, could never be sufficient or sufficiently reliable for an advanced economy/society. Climate change is happening, the icebergs are metling and we all are on board a global Titanic. Is there a solution, in the real world? Or are we merely fiddling while the ship begins to plummet into the depths?

  479. Racism is the single most important issue facing UK residents because it is inscribed at the highest level. The recent Home Office stop and search measures where non-whites have been targeted is appalling. People who have been watching this creeping evil will be aware of Theresa May’s hatred of Islam. I keep banging on about this because it is coming directly from government which in the past has paid lip-service at least to anti-racist, anti religionist targeting which is supposed to be enshrined in our law. It is akin to the Nazi targeting of Jews so I ask Jewish people of moderation to stand with me on this issue. I have never witnessed anything as blatantly racist like this before and urge decent people to sign and spread this petition.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/193/687/711/ukba-stop-racially-profiling-tube-commuters/?z00m=20605569

  480. “Dame Lucy Neville-Rolfe”.

    Brilliant name!

  481. Suhayl Saadi

    4 Aug, 2013 – 9:02 am

    Excellent post.

    “Or are we merely fiddling while the ship begins to plummet into the depths?”

    The ship is already plummeting into the abyss. The powers that be are just positioning themselves to make sure that they have a seat on the lifeboat.

  482. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 9:53 am

    Another Guildford Borough councillor gives this info in his register of interests

    ‘Section A: Disclosable Pecuniary Interests

    1. Details of any employment, office, trade, profession or vocation carried on for profit or gain.

    HM Diplomatic Service (part-time)’

    http://www.guildford.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=9975&lnk=49

    On Linked In he says he works P/T for Prosper HR at the FCO. It finds jobs for the old boys and girls. Not one for Craig presumably!

    http://www.fcoa.org.uk/

  483. Thanks, Someone, at 9:42am today.

  484. doug scorgie

    4 Aug, 2013 - 10:12 am

    News from USA:

    Today, Congress is considering passing bills that would not only codify discrimination against U.S. citizens, but also reward it.

    Both versions of the United States-Israel Strategic Partner Act of 2013 (S. 462, H.R. 938) include a provision for a visa waiver agreement with Israel.

    If the Senate version of this bill passes, it would give Israel the right to do what no other country in the world, that is a part of the visa waiver program, is given permission to do – allow it to continue to deny entry to any U.S. citizen, while allowing Israelis to enter the United States without a visa.

    It is outrageous that the Department of State should feel comfortable declaring publicly on their website that “U.S. citizens are advised that all persons applying for entry to Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza…may be denied entry or exit without explanation” and specifically notes that “U.S. citizens whom Israeli authorities suspect of being Arab, Middle Eastern, or Muslim origin may face additional, often time-consuming, and probing questioning by immigration and border authorities, or may be denied entry,” while Congress considers rewarding Israel for this discrimination.

    http://endtheoccupation.org/

  485. doug scorgie

    4 Aug, 2013 - 10:25 am

    War and Whistleblowers – Why Bradley Manning Should be Free
    Friday 9 August 7pm
    Hilda Porter Room, TheWesley
    81-103 Euston Street London NW1 2EZ
    (2 minute walk from Euston Station)
    For updates see: http://bit.ly/19ztF9N

    Speakers:
    Tariq Ali writer and activist, Peter Tatchell human rights campaigner
    Norman Solomon US author and activist, Kate Hudson CND
    Chris Nineham Stop the War Coalition

    Norman Solomon, will speak at the meeting on his way from the USA to present to the Nobel committee in Oslo a petition with over 100,000 names calling for Bradley Manning to be awarded this year’s Nobel Peace Prize.

    Read more:
    • Norman Solomon: Why Bradley Manning deserves the Nobel Peace Prize http://bit.ly/13vmjNi

    • Owen Jones: What would be the ultimate show of gratitude to Bradley Manning? http://bit.ly/15uKa2U

    • John Pilger: We have all been made witnesses to crimes against humanity http://bit.ly/12Xs5gn

    • Gary Younge: If Bradley Manning is an enemy of the state then so too is truth http://bit.ly/15wKpKr

  486. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 10:25 am

    Hakluyt is also mentioned on that FCO Association link.

    Hakluyt avoids publicity, but is regarded as having a reputation for discretion and effectiveness among its client base. Hakluyt was founded by former officials of the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakluyt_%26_Company

    What a stinking rotten country I was born into. No wonder I hate it now.

  487. “What a stinking rotten country I was born into. No wonder I hate it now.” Flaming June.

    The UK is certainly a deeply imperialist entity and so entities like Hakluyt are nothing new. I think you’ll find, however, that most countries engage in such covert arms-dealing operations; we are simply one of the biggest arms-manufacturers/dealers in the world. There’s no point hating the place you live in. To feel down about, and to oppose, certain aspects/power-structures/policies is one thing. But to hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.

    Wrt Britain, I like, eg. Tom Paine and Barbara Castle, Wat Tyler and the Diggers/Levellers, Aneurin Bevan, and the unnamed millions who gave their bodies and minds in the protracted struggles that allowed us to at least be able to conceive of such things. The tide will turn. Meanwhile, keep the midnight lamp burning.

  488. Survey reveals poor WWI knowledge

    Get ready for it folks. We are being set up, as any three card trick con artist sets up his mark.

    (19%) thinking Britain declared war in August 1914 because Germany invaded Poland – as was the case in 1939 – than Belgium, chosen by 13%.

    The same number (9%) thought that Winston Churchill was prime minister at the start of the 1914-18 conflict as correctly chose Herbert Asquith. Fully 1% of the 1,955 adults quizzed by YouGov for thinktank British Future – and 7% of those aged under 24 – even told the pollsters that Margaret Thatcher was PM in 1918.

    Shocking isn’t it? Oh yes it is!!

    But fear not, the cure is at hand. The upcoming four years of celebrations of the gigantic fuck up murder fest will sort out the “knowledge” deficit. Never mind more that half of the population are living on the edge of poverty and homelessness, but hey there is enough in the budget to set aside for the up coming four years of celebrations, and sending every school kid on the battle field tours.

    Do they fucking take the population for chumps? Of course they fucking do.

    Lessons for the carpetbaggers buy bus companies.

  489. Thanks for the that advert Dougie, shall give it a miss, just not sustainable to cart myself to London for a bit of hot wind that is a foregone conclusion to me in any case.

    Bradley Manning should be freed, that he is not an officer should not make any difference.

    The US justice system and its military aberrition is now on trial, if he gets more for his petulance than someone who ordered mass murder, then US justice is going backwards in the 21st. century, however much they claim to be libertarian and progressive with regards to equal rights bills and the decriminalisation of pot in some states.

    If Bradley Manning gets more than seven years, and is not freed soon, then the US does not deserve ICC justice, never mind their childish rejection of it.

    Who would want to dally with a regressive regime that is sliding into Dredd land, as in judge. I listened to the feeble excuses and weak condemnations from the west regards Mugabe’s wholesale election rigging, that’s how much we value their bloddy bling democracy, diamonds ‘ueber alles’ says uncle Barclay, nothing will stop us trading with tyrants if they have diamonds….

    How can a country that is in shackles to its military industrial owl worshippers survive with society falling apart under their plate sized eyes?

    Thanks for the Haklyt link FJ, another outfit that will take a vital part in Orwell’s 1984 scenario.

  490. @Ben

    No, it wasn’t revenge on the Germans it was a warning to the Russians, as was Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    Germany was already beaten, they were beaten by the Russians at Stalingrad. Russia was ready to take all of Europe into the Soviet Union then Japan as well, coming into the war at the end to take the spoils. Japan was already beaten when they dropped the bombs, they didn’t have enough fuel to put a plane in the air. The bombings in Japan and Germany had nothing to do with the ending of WWII, they were intended to start the Cold War.

  491. I see that Sunday Times has an interesting story on Gulnara Karimova aka Googoosha today.

  492. So Flaming Mary hates her own country and its people – Good for her!

  493. As someone who has worked with Jenny Jones LAM, and her daughter, slept on her Camberwell pad’s floor, I’m somewhat surprised what the power structure has done to her.

    Not only did she agree to the BBC bias against an Independent candidate for mayor, despite having been at the receiving end of same bias for two decades against the Green Party at every election, she now appears to have been subsumed by the trappings of power, perks and London waging.

    I’m aghast that she should even contemplate accepting a peerage, on the other hand it is merely another manifestation that the Green Party politicians are no different, their on organically sourced carpets are flying on hot air and I have yet to see Norwich or Brighton’s Greens implement their own policies, not even pilot projects.

    gaining electoral office is their highest goal and its supporters are rightly demanding more of them than just recycling, Norfolk is under performing on this issue, they want to see their transport and housing policies implemented. What is becoming more apparent with every new candidate is, that their moral high horse is a Shetland pony for real, they have lost their radical roots and are more likely to follow career political aims, than base democratic issues that serve their electorate and or sustainable living.

  494. @Jemand,

    I should think “hating one’s country”, if this dynamic can be reduced to that, is a common enough dilemma amongst leftists. We should not trivialise it, and we should instead strive to understand it, and be understanding of the people who it affects – as Suhayl does above.

    @Flaming June, @Jemand,

    In my twenties I would remark that the Union Jack ought to be burnt wherever it stood, as for me then it was an unrecoverable symbol of the far right and imperial conquest. But now, despite my persistent suspicion of flag wavers, I see that it holds many meanings for many people, and we should not assume that hijackers like Blair and Griffin have successfully “taken” it.

    This phenomenon has common cause with distaste for aggressive/racist nationalism, which is the other side of the same coin. Some people are afflicted with the sense of cultural or racial superiority I mentioned in an earlier comment, and the Left’s decent distaste for that can sometimes be expressed as the notion that one’s people and country can do no right.

    Orwell explored these themes in The Lion and The Unicorn – despite his failings, I rather warmed to his championing a gentle British patriotism, which celebrated a country of “coupon snippers” and people following their “quiet pursuits”. It was a plea not to throw the pride baby out with the nationalist bathwater, and I recommend it to anyone who’s not read it.

    On the same theme, I quite like thinking that, despite their power, it is the violent imperialists who ought to feel alien in the countries they occupy. That psychological process offers some healing for ordinary people who are angry about what is done in their name.

  495. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 1:54 pm

    I did not say I hate the people Jemand. I just hate the rotten secretive system that controls our lives.

    My name is Mary btw but I wish to be known as Flaming June. You know that very well and the reason for changing my ‘handle’ so please stop your nonsense.

    Thanks for your comments Jon and Nevermind. Appreciated.

  496. Hasbarista,

    The muzzies I know tell me one day even the stones and trees will inform when such devils are “masquerading” behind them

    Ah, I think I’ve encountered this oblique reference before. It is from the Koran, I think, where it says that even the stones and the trees will cry out “Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him”.

    I have two problems with this. Firstly, in taking an ancient text literally and out of context, you believe you have found support for anti-Jewish narrative where none exists. As I’ve said to fundamentalist readers of Islamic holy texts, the context of the time (perhaps during war?) is being ignored here.

    Secondly, if Judaism is so abominable to you, why do you quote the Koran? Is one religion better than the other? If so, why? I would have thought both should be treated with caution, especially where Israel/Palestine is concerned.

    Whilst on the topic, are you yourself religious? I think we might achieve more if you were to come and discuss things, rather than making vague, racially charged allusions – I think your comment above had absolutely zero effect here. So, tell us about yourself. And do you hold out hope that, in the context of US/Israel power structures, peace in the ME can be achieved? What do you make of Jewish people who are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians?

  497. “I’m aghast that she (Jenny Jones) should even contemplate accepting a peerage”

    She’s following the logic of the elite political system. I’d imagine she simply thinks, better to have a Green voice, than not.

    Like many others, she’s been captured and shall be ritually exhibited as testament to our most wondrous diversity.

    The Greens may have decided that grassroots activity will not produce the electoral advancement necessary for a movement to emerge, preferring instead an occasional siren voice in media.

    Perhaps they were purely a media creature.

    Anyway, worth catching Ed Herman on “Manufacturing Consent” 25 Years Later:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC_4OUK74iY

  498. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 2:57 pm

    Meanwhile….

    Homeless: More Young People Sleeping Rough

    Statistics show more young people are being forced onto the streets as a new theatre play shines the spotlight on the crisis.

    Sunday 04 August 2013

    Video: Homeless Crisis Under The Spotlight

    As statistics show more young people are becoming homeless in the UK, a new play questions why more is not being done to help those forced onto the streets.

    Government figures show the number of people sleeping rough in England has increased by a third since 2010.

    In London alone, 6,437 people slept rough during 2012-13, a 62% rise in two years.

    /..
    http://news.sky.com/story/1124291/homeless-more-young-people-sleeping-rough

    And yes, before you ask again Jemand, I have shared my home with strangers and in the past have worked in London for Crisis. My late husband was a Samaritan and at one time was a trustee of SHAC, a housing charity connected with Shelter. I cannot remember what the acronym stands for.

  499. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 3:08 pm

    Deaths by the hundred in Gaza because of fuel shortages.

    Gaza hospitals face fuel shortage: Health Ministry
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/08/04/317120/gaza-hospitals-face-fuel-shortage/

    Yet British Gas colluded with Israel to steal the gas that lies offshore to Gaza.

    The salaries of just two of directors of British Gas -

    Finlayson CEO £1,110,000pa
    As of Fiscal Year 2012

    Houston COO £3,268,000pa
    As of Fiscal Year 2012

    ex http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/board.asp?ticker=BG/:LN

    and so on. Obscene is it not?

  500. Look at this drone, what a useful tool and so unregulated. Every investigative blog should have one….

    I’m sure I could enthuse Mark G and Komodo, but seriously consider the use during demonstrations with a direct link to a website, unfiltered redacted or manipulated.

    Call it ‘As it happens’. I think for London and its various demo’s this could be a good investment. So why are NGO’s not using them? Have these all turned into GO’s now, or are they too hierarchical to be able to contemplate their own coverage? They manage to hold camera’s and make fine fund raising video’s, how about investing in your own fact finding and truth reporting?

    Or is that just for Paparazzi’s?

    wonder how much such a thing costs or whether you put it together yourself. This one has a steady bar for better pictures attached, but how small can a tv camera be these days?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/paparazzi-use-drones-to-photograph-tina-turner-wedding-in-switzerland-a-914179.html

  501. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Aug, 2013 - 4:06 pm

    Memebers of Congress can’t get info from their won security apparatus, so they have to go to Greenwald. Heh.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/04/congress-nsa-denied-access

  502. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 4:22 pm

    Where is Sabretache these days? Used to see his name in these columns.

    I was reading the profile on Sabretache’s blog and concur.

    http://sabretache.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/new-start.html

  503. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 4:33 pm

    More on Balcombe from Medialens

    Bianca Jagger speaks with Balcombe protesters
    Posted by fredjc on August 4, 2013, 3:14 pm

    BJ speaks at about 14 mins in, but worth watching the rest, although I must admit I did skip over the musical bits – it’s reminiscent of the 60′s hippy-style of protest, although I think by now most Balcombe residents are waking-up to exactly what they’re up against. Video…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkU7eM2bo0&feature=player_embedded

    The first person to be interviewed is Lech Kawolski who is currently showing his film ‘Drill Baby Drill’ in the States. His website is here…

    http://www.lechkowalski.com/en/video/item/5/drill-baby-drill

    And a radio interview with him here…
    http://www.radio4all.net/files/pencil@riseup.net/3609-1-drill2.mp3

  504. Flaming June

    4 Aug, 2013 - 4:45 pm

    Balcombe lies in Francis Maude’s constituency.

    Maude appointed Lord Browne to a cabinet post.

    http://gasdrillinginbalcombe.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/balcombe-mp-appointed-cuadrilla-director-to-government/

  505. Thanks Phil, that’s more than pocket money then. Mind you, NGO’s such as Greenpeace make millions, its peanuts to them.

    I think the one that is required has six to eight rotors, takes the weight of a Hollywood spec. camera, up to 5 kilos load so I believe.

    Enough to have it carry some confetti, so every time someone gets manhandled, bashed or pushed over, collateral damage, shot on the tube, one could release some red confetti in appreciation of our civil servants….

    These things can fly anywhere and quiet high, like take a cage shot of the London Eye visitors from close up. Or join someone close by on his walk over the foot bridge, so many possibilities…

    ‘As it happens TV’ could have an extra live page here, were news is made. It would preclude to having a more business like blog/site that pays a wage or two, maybe take some NGO’ ads, nothing too corporate, so one could allow the drone and its operator to travel.

  506. @Nevermind

    Drones dropping confetti on out of control coppers is a genius idea full of symbolism.

    Occupy discussed using drones but I have not seen that they did. I suspect the actual value is limited and any attempt would be quickly jammed by the rozzers.

    There has been a clip of a drone filming police movements from poland online for a while. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOxh9dbkNT4

  507. Jon, some reasonable points but hating a country and, by implication, its people is not reasonable. It suggests a domination of emotion over reason. We see enough of that in the world and on this blog.

    Mary, you can wish upon a star for any name you like. I wish to be addressed as Prince Gerhardt IV.

  508. Don’t be surprised to see private drones banned outside of designated areas for hobbyists in the next ten years.

  509. Aug 5: Seal Team 76, led by Kathryn Bigelow and camera crew, burst into Yemeni conference room at enemy hovel, where lecturer is translating Snowden’s filched 2007/2009 Power Point presentations into Arabic.

    One member is taking notes. 54 are snoring, as is customary at any Power Point presentation. One dastard is discovered in mens room, writing his last testament/manifesto on wall with ballpoint pen.

    Aug 6: With a fiendish worldwide plot foiled, just before The Enemy learned how NSA really worked and ceased their endless chatter about this, that, and the other thing, President Obama triumphantly appears on NBC-TV’s Jay Leno comedy show, greeted with thunderous applause and 17 minutes of chanting, “USA, USA, USA!”

    Aug 7: Congress votes unanimously to quadruple funding of spy machinery.

  510. But worth a try Phil, worth a try, jamming the frequency would be an own goal and endangering the public, the police could not be seen jamming a 20 kg device and sending it trundling down in to a mass of people, they could not defend such action in court when they knew it carries a camera and confetti.

    ‘We are very sorry, your honour, we did see the live pictures on their website, but we did not like the poppy red colour of the confetti and so we jammed it and it fell from great hight on to that pushchair with a two year old, unfortunate collateral damage, sir , as I’ve said, we are so very sorry….

    sounds of slapping wrists…

  511. Jemand, how can you ban something that is unregulated by law? Are you drafting it?

  512. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    4 Aug, 2013 - 7:51 pm

    @ Jemand :

    “I wish to be addressed as Prince Gerhardt IV.”
    _____________

    Your wish is my command, Sir (sorry : Sire!)!

    I’ve tried to find you in the Almanach de Gotha but without success; could you give some geographical indications which will help me trace your lineage, pls?

    My guess at this stage would be the House of Groessenwahn-Nix-Bessereszutun… :)

  513. “Uzbekistan’s cotton is the subject of an international boycott over alleged child labour.”

    http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2011/12/05/how-the-bureau-investigated-bell-pottinger/

    “High street banks have lent to payday loan companies.”

    http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2013/06/13/the-money-pouring-into-a-boom-for-consumer-loans/

  514. doug scorgie

    4 Aug, 2013 - 9:33 pm

    The honours system is, as most people here would agree I’m sure, a corrupt elitist abomination where decent hard working people get a few scraps (CBEs, OBEs, MBEs, BEMs, etc.) and the elite get the far more “influential” honours of Knighthoods/Dames and Peerages for services to “the state”.

    Peerage being the honour that allows a person to sit in the House of Lords in a political capacity without being elected.

    There are some decent people “elevated” to the Lords on a token basis to make the system look fair in some way; Doreen Lawrence being a good example.

    People get honours for achievements like:

    “…improving life for people less able to help themselves.”

    So no honours for Ian Duncan Smith or George Osborne then?

  515. Here is an accurate reflection on what has happened, and is happening, in the Middle East and North Africa, from Russian Prime Minister Medvedov.

    http://ruvr.co.uk/2013_08_04/Medvedev-slams-Wests-Middle-East-policies-Syria-Iraq-Libya/

  516. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    4 Aug, 2013 - 9:59 pm

    ““If we’re being completely honest, what good did the Arab Spring bring to the Arab world? Did it bring freedom? A little, at best. In most countries it led to endless bloodshed, regime change, and continuous unrest.”

    This seems to be directed at Wikileaks, as well John. Tunisia’s awakening was a direct result. I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come for Snowden.

    The Arab Spring is not Irish Spring with a 4-leaf clover scent. Any People struggling with oppression, revolution revert to political and social evolution. It may be glacial in it’s progress, but instant transformation should not be a required hurdle in order to qualify.

  517. Suhayl

    “What a stinking rotten country I was born into. No wonder I hate it now.” Flaming June.

    The UK is certainly a deeply imperialist entity and so entities like Hakluyt are nothing new. I think you’ll find, however, that most countries engage in such covert arms-dealing operations; we are simply one of the biggest arms-manufacturers/dealers in the world.To feel down about, and to oppose, certain aspects/power-structures/policies is one thing. But to hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.”

    Jon adds:

    ” @Jemand,

    I should think “hating one’s country”, if this dynamic can be reduced to that, is a common enough dilemma amongst leftists. We should not trivialise it, and we should instead strive to understand it, and be understanding of the people who it affects – as Suhayl does above.”

    First Jon, ” if this dynamic can be reduced to that, is a common enough dilemma amongst leftists.”

    True, IF it can be reduced to that…well, Mary in her original comment was quite emphatic and so did with full intention reduce it to that. It follows i disagree that it “is a common enough dilemma amongst leftists.” Are you sure about that Jon? I mean there could be some strong dislikes, even abhorrence of certain policies or the way of politics, but “hate” is surely another phenomenon isn’t it? Btw to say “we should instead strive to understand it, and be understanding of the people who it affects – as Suhayl does above.”, is a stretch too far. Suhayl was saying nothing to that effect. What he was saying is “To feel down about, and to oppose, certain aspects/power-structures/policies is one thing. But to hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.”

    Yes to “hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.” Lets be clear this is what the original post by Mary said and it is an entirely different suggestion.

    Why do people here feel the need to whitewash Mary’s feelings of hate? Why is it minimised and sugar coated by others with intellectual dishonesty. Mary intrigues me no end when she paints all S Koreans with the same brush of (unproven alleged) incompetence of their Boeing 777 pilots or petitions God on this website to Damn (yes again, the whole of Amerika). Even suggesting that there’s something fraudulent happening at the humble Krishnamurti Foundation — cheap pathetic plain envious/jealous shot like there’s “gold in them thar Krishnamurti hills”. How uninformed and sick is that?

    Why doesn’t Mary come forward with explanations of and on her own. Take time our from her sellf-centred news service activity and take responsibility and retract or apologise — use the magic word ‘sorry’ if necessary? Until she moves away from her glossing over sweeping generalisations and stubbornness, i will see her fragmented posts for what they are — just another escape artist and fragmented lefty riding her one-trick pony of charging towards the windmills of Palestine who is not going to make one gitmo of a difference to the true injustices and conflict in this world. I invite Mary to respond directly.

    Reflection of the day: Living in an Insane World

    http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=170&chid=4526&w=hate

  518. Here’s a good article on browser support for Perfect Forward Secrecy/Diffie-Hellman key exchange and PRISM/Xkeyscore/Whateverleaksnext

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/06/25/ssl-intercepted-today-decrypted-tomorrow.html

    Note that Internet Exploder virtually never uses PFS even when connecting to a website which supports a compatible variant. The article doesn’t mention this but it is possible to force Exploder to use diffie-hellman more often but the information on how to do so is buried in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.” **

    ** Well really an obscure hard to use mis-feature buried way down in gpedit.msc

    Firefox 23 Out this week beefs up security even further by finally supporting TLS 1.1
    Firefox 24 adds TLS 1.2

    The Snowden leaks seem to be accelerating PFS and TLS security upgrades on both the server and client ends. Notably not from some such as Microsoft though.

  519. ‘momentum that even critics say may be unstoppable’?

    400 people protesting NSA domestic spying – out of a population of over 300 million – is rather depressing

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/04/national-day-protest-nsa-spying

  520. Jemand – Censorship Improves History 4 Aug, 2013 – 7:20 pm

    “Don’t be surprised to see private drones banned outside of designated areas for hobbyists in the next ten years.”

    2 years, tops.

  521. BrianFujisan

    5 Aug, 2013 - 12:34 am

    With Regards the Propaganda Criminals of the bbc Here’s a Youtube video

    Syrian man confronts BBC reporter for Lying

    Lyse Doucet. She is a major player in Chatham House which is a British NGO that is a propaganda tool of the British Establishment. Chatham House is also known as the “Tavistock Institute”, the UK branch of the CFR. She has been behind directing most of the ‘Arab spring’ coverage from Libya to Egypt. When she claims to know nothing about the lies told previously she is dishonest. She is not only a purveyor of the lies but she is an architect of the entire edifice of lies.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTX4-wNPIps

  522. Honeyclap

    For once you come in second-annoying with ‘Muzzies’. The ‘most offensive’ prize goes to the BBC’s references to ‘Moslems’, a colonial pejorative pronunciation. Please try harder to be more annoying next time. It’s nearly Eid.

  523. BrianFujisan. 100 % agreed:
    “She is not only a purveyor of the lies but she is an architect of the entire edifice of lies.”

  524. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 1:23 am

    How about ‘Mohametans’ Guano? Does that send your guano batty?

  525. “Syrian man confronts BBC reporter for Lying”

    What’s he saying? “Everyone supports the president” and you accuse the BBC of lying?

    Chatham House and the Tavistock Institute are not one and the same.

  526. Jemand,

    Your contributions here over a certain time remind me of a sad plastic piece of plastic who really ought know better,but is prepared to pimp their limited skills out to the highest agendised plastic bidder.

    Go away you shallow bought and paid for confused AND pretentious semi-literate droid until you’ve got something really truthful to speak of.

    Taking your shill buddy-boy gang stalkers would be a bonus too.

    But i shan’t hold my breath.

    The rest of us don’t get paid to be here.

  527. Habbabkuk, “Sire” is an acceptable alternative, thank you for acknowledging my right to be addressed in my preferred way. Of course, being of royal blood, it it my prerogative to not acknowledge the rights of anyone else who wishes to be addressed in any way other than that which I prefer. Hence Flaming Mary et al., will be addressed accordingly.

    As to my royal lineage and tragic heritage that saw my family dispossessed of its perfectly legitimate and legally obtained wealth and provincial property during the Crimean War in the 19th century, I am surprised that you have not yet discovered on the many, many, many hundreds of websites that comprise the internet, that my story is not told there, but rather on about a half dozen websites that discuss free energy appliances and cancer industry conspiracies. Please click past the first two levels of UFO revelations to find my family history.

    Briefly, my family had a province around the area now known as Hutt River, in Australia’s equivalent of Switzerland. During the Crimean War, forces loyal to the bad side in that war took unlawful possession of our territories for reasons that are too painful for me to recall and I never studied European history because it was boring so I don’t know in any case.

    Anyway, the province was never returned to our rightful possession but now resides in the hands of a pretender to the throne, a “Prince” Leonard, fraud and knave.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River

    [Dedicated to "sad plastic piece of plastic" and paragon of British intellect, Jives]

  528. Re Drones

    As brilliant as these flying devices are, they represent a key piece of technology that logically advances the implementation of the Machine State, which extends the reach of totalitarian and authoritarian government. It should be again emphasised that the rise of a totalitarian Machine State does not need to be planned in an “intentionalist” process, but will form as a “functionalist” product of independent government efforts to reduce costs and improve management of various ‘problems’. When key pieces of infrastructure are in place, it requires very little effort to connect them all and, in doing so, realise a massive performance gain in surveillance and control of people. All you then need is for good people to do nothing.

  529. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 6:51 am

    From Jives, in the wee hours :

    “Jemand,

    Your contributions here over a certain time remind me of a sad plastic piece of plastic who (SIC) really ought know better,but is prepared to pimp their (SIC)limited skills out to the highest agendised (SIC) plastic bidder.

    Go away you shallow (SIC – comma needed)bought and paid for (SIC – comma needed) confused AND pretentious semi-literate droid until you’ve got something really truthful to speak of.

    Taking your shill buddy-boy gang stalkers would be a bonus too.

    But i shan’t hold my breath. (PLEASE DO – PREFERABLY FOR 10 MINUTES..)

    The rest of us don’t get paid to be here (SIC – missing full stop).

    Keep up the good work, Jivesy

  530. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 7:12 am

    @ Jemand

    Sire, thank you for your fascinating response!

    By a remarkable coincidence, I read just a couple of days ago of the demise of “Princess” Shirley Casey (Obituaries section of the London “Times” dated 1 August 2013).

    That obituary started with “In 1970 Shirley Casey, a West Australian farmer’s wife, was transformed into Her Royal Highness Princess Shirley Casey of Hutt when her husband Leonard declared that their vast wheat farm 600 km north of Perth had become a principality and he its prince”, and ended with “She is survived by her husband and their children: Crown Prince Ian; Wayne, Duke of Nain; Richard, Duke of Carmel; Graeme, Duke of Galboa; and Duchesses Kay, Diane and Sherryl.”.

    There was, however, no mention of your good self (Prince Gerhardt IV.

    Is this yet another example of how the MSM habitually suppress historical fact in the interests of large corporations, the wicked Con-LibDem govt, thus serving, albeit indirectly, the interests of the Zionist master plan?

    I think we should be told.

  531. Am I alone in detecting an increasing “chosen” hubris emanating from habba & co towards us goyim – punctuation mark deficiencies n all? Must be a harbinger of an upcoming usual millennial slimming course,proven time and again to clear out the effects of the expired kedem causing such delusion, gotta catch up on some “prepping” reading then !

  532. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 7:58 am

    It’s rather amusing to observe the international trade in election gurus. Rudd, with an election in a month’s time, has called on the services of an Obama campaign expert called Tom McMahon. He has also procured a Matthew McGregor from the UK who is a social media expert and a Joon Kim from a US consulting firm New Partners.

    Rudd flies in Team Obama
    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/rudd-flies-in-team-obama-20130730-2qxet.html

    Cameron already has signed the Australian Lynton Crosby and last week we heard he had employed a Jim Messina from the US to advise on ‘strategic communications’.

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-08-03/obama-election-guru-to-have-no-input-on-tory-policy/

    Whether in Australia or the UK be prepared for an onslaught of TV ads, poster campaigns and spin.

  533. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 8:05 am

    Meanwhile Rudd has moved on from Manus Island, Papua New Guinea to plans for the island of Nauru, pop 9,000, to accommodate the ‘refugees’. Note the use of the acronym RPC – ‘regional processing centre’. No not a bacon factory, a compound to sort homeless humans.

    Aussie Imperialism: Kevin Rudd and Dumping on the Pacific
    August 4th, 2013
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/08/aussie-imperialism-kevin-rudd-and-dumping-on-the-pacific/

    Nauru itself does not agree with Rudd that the refugees will be resettled there.
    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/nauru-denies-rudd-claim-refugees-will-be-resettled-on-island-20130804-2r7q5.html

    Let’s hope that Mrs May doesn’t get any similar ideas about islands.

  534. Hababbkuk, yes it’s MSM revisionism. I don’t know if any Zionists are involved but since you mention it, I now imagine that they are, so yeah! Burn your MSM newspapers, and other revisionist sources of Hutt-River propaganda.

    Flaming Mary, we’ve always had “onslaughts” of political advertising, even outside of coming elections. So I don’t know how a “Team Obama” guru will change that. But the American influence on Oz political campaigning and sloganeering has a 10 year delay before arriving here. Personally, I prefer the British style of campaign where candidates casually mingle amongst the madding crowd, throwing random punches at their constituents.

    I also notice, Flaming Mary, that you like to try and bait me with your anti-Australian propaganda. I guess you also hate us as you hate your own country. All this hate gets us nowhere, can we all get along??

  535. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 8:57 am

    ‘Peace’ talks? What ‘peace’ talks would those be?

    Israeli Decree on West Bank Settlements Will Harm Peace Talks, Palestinians Say

    By JODI RUDOREN
    August 4, 2013

    JERUSALEM — With peace talks scheduled to begin next week, an Israeli cabinet decision involving West Bank settlements on Sunday drew condemnation from the Palestinian leadership, highlighting the fragility of the Washington-brokered effort to resume long-stalled negotiations.

    /..
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/05/world/middleeast/palestinians-assail-israeli-settlement-decree.html?_r=0

  536. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 9:06 am

    Under the pretext of addressing Suhayl, there is yet another dose of psychoanalysis concerning me from the Krisnamurti Preacherman.

    He obviously does not have sufficient of other activity to occupy him and I suggest he should apply himself to some useful physical activity.

    As he has been told by the moderator, he should not be commenting on the posters here just the topics.

    ~~~

    Not ‘baiting’ you at all Jemand. I seem to have touched a nerve! You probably dread September 2013 just as much as we dread Spring 2015 (or earlier if and when it all goes pear shaped for this flaky coalition).

  537. Krishnamurski Villager should be more concerned about the disharmony in the minds of all the mad jews encouraged from all over the world to come and occupy the West Bank with free housing and guaranteed monthly wages to foment Islamophobia and shill “narrative” on the net. All financed from tax free “charitable” contributions in the Western world of course.

  538. Mary, since you talk about your personal hates, and betray your personal jealousy and bigotry in the context of world events, i address those subjects of the mind. It is not analysis, it is empirical observation of life itself as it flows from thought-feeling-action. Speaking expansively, and given all the mischief and conflicts going on around the world, our mind — the way we think and live — is the source of all conflict, is it not?

    So when Suhayl says “But to hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.”, what do you think he’s saying?

    Btw, did you read the piece of K that i linked above? Here is the prelude:

    “Last Sunday I was trying to explain what is right thinking and how to set about it. I said that unless there is self-awareness, self-knowledge of all the motives, intentions, and instincts, thought-feeling has no true foundation, and that without this foundation there is no right thinking. Self-knowledge is the beginning of understanding. And as we are – the world is. That is, if we are greedy, envious, competitive, our society will be competitive, envious, greedy, which brings misery and war. The state is what we are. To bring about order and peace, we must begin with ourselves and not with society, not with the state, for the world is ourselves. And it is not selfish to think that each one must first understand and change himself to help the world. You cannot help another unless you know yourself. Through self-awareness one will find that in oneself is the whole.”

    and the link again: http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=170&chid=4526&w=hate

    Never mind the messenger, but please address the message. What is being said is fact, not some psychoanalysis theories.
    Enjoy your swim as i will mine.

  539. @ Jemand – Censorship Improves History 5 Aug, 2013 – 5:29 am
    “Re Drones. It should be again emphasised that the rise of a totalitarian Machine State does not need to be planned in an “intentionalist” process, but will form as a “functionalist” product of independent government efforts to reduce costs and improve management of various ‘problems’. When key pieces of infrastructure are in place, it requires very little effort to connect them all and, in doing so, realise a massive performance gain in surveillance and control of people. All you then need is for good people to do nothing.”

    Problem is, many of the people in favour of uber-surveillance consider themselves the “Good People”, the ones with nothing to hide, but determined to pry into others’ lives and not limited to protecting the Homeland/Fatherland/Motherland from threats real or fake.

    Already, divorce lawyers are demanding access to the vast NSA database to catch out their client’s spouse and the entertainment industry wants to use it to track pirate downloads.

    Other government bodies are likewise clamouring for data. There will be the usual cries, “If only one child is saved!” (From a predator, a glimpse of porn, bullying, a sugary drink or salty snack — whatever.)

    Cities will tap in to bring fiends with unpaid parking tickets to justice. Not much technical effort needed to find who has been texting or sexting while driving. with the gubmint auto-deducting an appropriate fine from the violator’s account.

    At best, we’re doomed to a Stasi of do-gooders.

  540. “Mohamed Morsi’s allies admit defeat and plot (sic) to fly him into exile”

    ‘Deposed President could resign via a televised address and hand powers to interim Prime Minister’

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/egypt-mohamed-morsis-allies-admit-defeat-and-plot-to-fly-him-into-exile-8745525.html

    I find it frustrating reading about Egypt at the moment. I’m not sure that we know the full truth of what happened there, or that we ever will.

  541. Dreoilin:

    “I find it frustrating reading about Egypt at the moment. I’m not sure that we know the full truth of what happened there, or that we ever will.”

    Yes Dreoilin very uncomfortable but in the bigger picture, Egypt would do well to emulate Turkey and separate religion from politics as far as possible. It doesn’t by any means imply that all will be ok from hereon.

  542. “I seem to have touched a nerve!”

    No Mary, it’s the other way around. While you are reporting on the asylum seeker issue in Australia, you might want to also report on a recent incident in which some asylum seekers who got rejected subsequently burnt down a building during a riot in which 60 million dollars (£40million) of damage was caused. Imagine how many people in troubled areas of the world could have been helped with that money. It’s enough to make you cry.

  543. NR, very scary stuff how technology can, is and continues to be misused. Sometimes one feels that we will need visitors from another planet to help get our house in order. We seem to be standing at the precipice but unable to pull back. The only way humanity can find a new way of living is for each of us to be a light unto ourselves. That means one lamp being lit at a time — sounds like an awfully slow-boat but i don’t know if there is another one to catch.

    More of the same, protests and campaigns, doesn’t seem to be working. Maybe we do all need to slow down in order to change the dynamics. The only saving grace is that the internet is such a nascent tool — properly used it could prove to be a great asset in transformation, both personal and global.

  544. Ben
    Moslem is a kind of affected Cambridge don pronunciation used by orientalists, who know everything about Islam except the taste of iman/faith. Also used by some well-respected Muslims who mix with them.

    I like ‘Mohametans’.

  545. Jemand – Censorship Improves History 5 Aug, 2013 – 11:04 am
    “…asylum seekers who got rejected subsequently burnt down a building during a riot in which 60 million dollars (£40million) of damage was caused. Imagine how many people in troubled areas of the world could have been helped with that money.”

    Wow, those stupid, ungrateful darkies. Same as those bloody abos. Pass me another xxxx.

  546. Simple exercise, vaguely relevant to some of the above, re. BBC coverage. I realise that some will start spitting here…but…

    On Radio 4, compare the number of programmes by, for and about Jewish people with those by, for, and about Muslims (UK population ~6 times the Jewish population), Hindus (double) and, especially, Sikhs* (~1.3 times). When was the last time a Sikh appeared on The Moral Maze, for instance? Instead, of a regular like arch-zionist Mel Phillips?

    I’d be interested to know what you come up with.

    *Jokes about skullcaps, suicide bombs, sacred cows and turbans on comedy programmes excluded, that is.

  547. @nevermind:

    http://www.buzzflyer.co.uk/quadcopters.asp?gclid=CLTYpvKO5rgCFTLMtAod3XoAsw

    I see Phil beat me to it, but more ideas here.

    You can get something which flies, with an onboard camera, for less than £50. And without knowing an arms dealer, you can do a good bit better than that if you spend more.

  548. Moving forward, as they say in corporate-speak, now that we know we are definitely being spied on by our governments in our private bedrooms through whatever means, does nobody think that we are affected by that knowledge?

    Animals will cut short starting to mate if they notice that they are being observed by humans. Does our government not recognise that spying on private acts is both illegal and humiliating.

    One of the Muslims whose work with the intelligence agencies includes spying on me with information supplied by government systems told me that what I did or said would affect how he would behave. Yes, they use spying to threaten us while we are trying to live our ordinary lives as Muslims. That’s why Mursi was kicked out, because he started his spying campaign against the military.

    But do they not understand that knowing you are being observed can change what people do, making them refrain from doing in public what they do naturally in private, and maybe doing other things instead which are unnatural like looking at porn. Spying is extremely intrusive and haram. We have to establish our human right not to be spied upon, because it can make us do things which are sinful, trying to avoid the shame of being exposed in privacy with our wives.

    I could argue that illegal interference in my private life justified my breaking the state law, paying my council tax etc.
    Instead of just accepting that government spying is not illegal from members of the Privy Council, who also stated that the invasion of Iraq was not illegal, maybe we should point out that legality is not an issue, actions have consequences. Invade and terror will prevail, spy and public protest will prevail.

    Only those who do not believe in human justice or the Divine laws which forbid spying, are content to earn their living by this dirty and haram activity. Political minds like Mursi who spy on individuals are much dirtier than the sexual acts they are spying on. Human sexuality is not in itself dirty, but spying is kufr/disbelief, because it is repeatedly and strongly forbidden in Islam. Mursi’s USUKIS experiment with universal spying has disgraced the Masonic Muslim Brotherhood for all time.

    It is the habit of political Muslims to see the faults of others while ignoring the planks in their own eyes. That’s why the USUKIS are promoting plank Islam with all their might and resources. Praise be to God commonsense in Egypt prevailed.

  549. NR, so long as there are complex social and consumer distractions that feed a sort of false conciousness of the people, we cannot rely on the majority of good people to be so well informed, intellectually disposed and emotionally prepared to have the wherewithal to resist the transformation of our society into a dystopian Machine State.

    Organisations like Wikileaks try to shine a light on real power dynamics within a culture that is entertained by fictitious stories about state conspiracies. It’s like being in a room full of mirrors.

  550. doug scorgie

    5 Aug, 2013 - 11:50 am

    Just as the “peace talks” take off:

    “Israel has agreed to subsidise several Jewish settlements that were regarded as illegal until recently.” [legalised by a process only recognised by Israel]

    Palestinian official Hanan Ashrawi said the move would have a “destructive impact” on peace talks, which resumed last week after a three-year hiatus.

    “This is exactly what Israel wants, have a [peace] process for its own sake, and at the same time have a free hand to destroy the objective of the [peace] process,”

    “On Sunday, the cabinet published a list of more than 600 towns and settlements to be regarded as priority areas for development.”

    The latest list included a total of 91 [illegal] settlements, up from 85 in last December’s list.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23569537

  551. Phil, what’s with your stupid racist comment? Or are you one of those people who believes when someone claims asylum, they should be taken at their word only? Like in court?

  552. Guano 5 Aug, 2013 – 11:42 am
    “now that we know we are definitely being spied on by our governments in our private bedrooms through whatever means, does nobody think that we are affected by that knowledge?”

    That’s a very interesting question.

    In science, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on a phenomenon being observed. A commonplace example is checking the pressure in an automobile tire; this is difficult to do without letting out some of the air, thus changing the pressure.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_%28physics%29

  553. Komodo

    The behaviour of Jews has many hundreds of years of observation in our European society and most of what has been observed has been respectable and beneficial to society.

    Compare that with the steady flow of bad news about our Muslim friends. In this clip it comes to my mind that the police authority knew very well what their Muslim bobby was up to and gave him enough rope to hang himself, Daniel Pelka , and the rest of us believing Muslims.

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/local-news/west-midlands-police-officer-faces-3312734

  554. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 11:55 am

    ‘Btw, did you read the piece of K that i linked above?’

    Definitely not. Neither did I read your piece. I skimmed it.

    btw Swimming is on a Tuesday. Planting vegetables this morning, mowing the grass and cutting some hedges. Lovely work.

    How are enrolments going for the £19,000pa K school in Alresford? Filling up nicely?

    Who can afford those fees? Pop stars, multinational CEOs, FCO diplomats? Definitely not any of the 1m plus British on zero hours working.

    This morning on Sky News there was this dreadful Katie Hopkins person shouting down a kid who had been through the Sports Direct mill. Hopkins was extolling the benefits of the zero hours construct for employers. She is a Alan Sugar ‘Apprentice’ afficionado and has been in trouble for making offensive statements on the social media.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1124549/zero-hours-contracts-for-one-million-britons

    Not so much ‘You’re fired’ because you were never given an employment contract in the first place.

    Hopkins -http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2013/jul/18/katie-hopkins-queen-of-conflict

  555. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 12:00 pm

    Finally there is some sort of justice for Ian Tomlinson’s widow and children, if only monetary plus an apology from the high ups in the Met.

    Ian Tomlinson’s Family Welcome Police Apology
    Scotland Yard pays tribute to the newspaper seller’s widow as they reach a settlement four years after his death at a G20 protest.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1124627/ian-tomlinsons-family-welcome-police-apology

    The words.
    http://content.met.police.uk/News/Public-Statement-and-Deputy-Assistant-Commissioner-de-Brunners-apology-to-the-Tomlinson-family/1400019013635/1257246745756

  556. Flamy

    I was recently offered a ‘position’, instead of a ‘contract’. Anyone can buy work if they have a credit card to pay for the transport/tools.

  557. Flaming June

    I was recently offered a ‘position’, instead of a ‘contract’. Anyone can buy work if they have a credit card to pay for the transport/tools.

  558. So Guano, was that Muslim bobby a legitimate suspect or not? What do you think the police should have done when they suspected that one of their own was corrupt? Nothing? Something? What?

  559. Flaming Mary:

    “Who can afford those fees? Pop stars, multinational CEOs, FCO diplomats?”

    Poor Mary, you really are caught in a web of jealousy and envy. What a shock it would come as to your system if ever a Palestinian child had enrolled in that School. Btw that is only one of many schools that K helped found — most of them are in perhaps more affordable India. Do you begrudge the children who can afford to go to high-quality schools?

    What if Craig sends his children there, would that be the end of it then?

    The weirdness of your narrow little compassion. I’ll let you carry on with your quixotic tilting at the windmills in Palestine born out of the same bigoted petition for God to damn America.

    Btw are you side-stepping Suhayl’s profound observation and my related question:

    “So when Suhayl says “But to hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.”, what do you think he’s saying?”

    You are something different alright :-)

  560. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 12:18 pm

    Jemand You just don’t get it.

    ‘“I seem to have touched a nerve!”

    No Mary, it’s the other way around. While you are reporting on the asylum seeker issue in Australia, you might want to also report on a recent incident in which some asylum seekers who got rejected subsequently burnt down a building during a riot in which 60 million dollars (£40million) of damage was caused. Imagine how many people in troubled areas of the world could have been helped with that money. It’s enough to make you cry.’

    It is not about money.

    Did the burnt out building resemble this one in Afghanistan at all?

    http://revolutionaryfrontlines.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/united-nations-silent-as-usnato-forces-destroy-thousands-of-afghan-homes/

    Or this?

    http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/081105-afghanistan-hmed-9a.hmedium.jpg

    Or were any injured like Ali Abbas who was gravely injured and ten members of his family killed in Iraq in 2003?

    http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/ali-ismaeel-abbas-12-who-lost-his-arms-in-a-missile-attack-news-photo/1928255

    Enough.

  561. technicolour

    5 Aug, 2013 - 12:21 pm

    What people need to know about the situation of asylum seekers in Australia. In the first video a man, having stitched his lips together, throws himself onto razor wire. A lawyer explains that 90 percent of asylum seekers are found to be bona fide. In the second, made almost ten years ago, activists pull the fences down around Woomera, a prison in the middle of the desert where asylum seekers have been held indefinitely. Children have been born inside.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq0KSJWT2F8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcz4xh5qwVU

  562. The UKUSIS strategy in Syria was to invite political Islam, including US-controlled Saudi and Qatar, and Syrian exiles and Al Qaida to make war on Assad, while at the same time draw on the Zionist control of Russia and Iran to send heavy weapons and Shi’a troops in order to repel Sunni progress.

    The full responsibility for what has ensued is entirely on the shoulders once again of a UK prime Minister and his senior cabinet members. We sent snipers to start the war, and we allowed our backside to be shafted by the world’s media by supporting the Zionist plan to wreck Syria with opposing forces in order for Israel to take control its water resources for the benefit of Israel’s expansion.

    Political Islam is fully aware of the plan, but is counting on Obama being shamed by it into a full-scale assault on Assad, clearing the way for stooges to re-build Syria with pipes to Israel included in the plan. Once again political Islam has been fooled by Zionist lies.

    The intervention of Shi’a forces on Israel’s side has changed the relationship between Sunni and Shi’a forever. It had always been a saving grace for the Shi’a that Hizbullah gave Israel a hard time. Now that we know that Shi’a and Israel are best bosom friends, and Iran has been rewarded for services rendered by a new smiley Rouhani regime, all trace of respect for the Shi’a leadership has now gone.

    You make your choices and live with the consequences. Shi’a have lost all credibilty for a generation. The UK P.M likes being shafted by the world’s media. A public school wet dream.

  563. Ahhh, hello Technicolour. It didn’t take long for you to weigh into the asylum seeker ‘debate’, did it?

    Your claim that 90% of people are found to be “bona fide” asylum seekers is false. The truth is that 90% are successful in their applications because the immigration authorities give the benefit of the doubt to people who are NOT proved to be NOT genuine asylum seekers and NOT proved to be NOT of good character. You see, in applications for asylum, two negatives equate to a positive. And all you need is a good story and a reasonably clean criminal record – not that any records can be accessed by Australian Immigration officials – to successfully claim asylum.

    But let me ask this – if Australia is such a shitty, racist country, why do so many people make the journey past their neighbours to come here? 

  564. Jemand
    You’re so naive. The police placed the brother into the brothel/hard drugs territory temptation in order to creat another media scandal against Islam.

    A policeman is zimmidari/responsible. His/her job is to assess the risks of violence arising from a criminal activity. A bent policeman, instead of alerting the authorities of the presence of a vulnerable child inside the brothel, reassured the perpetrators that they were immune from suspicion by getting involved in the crime.

    It is inconceivable with modern police methods of communications interceptions that the police authorities were unaware of the bobby’s involvement in the criminal activity or of the abuse of the child. This is just another case where the police have a sense of omnipotence because they are recording stuff sitting on their bottoms, and they ball forget that it isn’t a soap about good guys and bad guys.

    The police are 100% responsible for the consequences of sailing too close to the wind.

  565. Far from preventing crime, the police spying capability is now the biggest initiators and sponsors of crime. That’s why they put in political managers to produce spin to cover up the slime.

  566. Jemand – Censorship Improves History 5 Aug, 2013 – 11:50 am
    “Phil, what’s with your stupid racist comment?”

    Australia is embracing a punitive, racist immigration policy while still persecuting the people who europeans stole the country from. But all you can do is complain about rioting immigrants. So I was thinking you might have had one too many amber nectar because you failed to mention that the building destroyed was a detention centre.

    Just think of all the ‘good’ that you could do with the $25 billion annually frittered away on fags and food waste. Or how many much ‘good’ could be done with the $7.5m spent on one beer ad.

  567. technicolour

    5 Aug, 2013 - 12:49 pm

    Seen the man with the stitched up mouth throwing himself on the razor wire, Jemand? Anything to say yourself about the conditions which lead to that? Seen the desperation on the faces of the prisoners, held without charge or limitations, the hopelessness on the face of the child born inside? Australia is not alone, of course. But I like the idea that ‘my’ claim (it’s a lawyer speaking) is wrong because it’s – er – right.

  568. Bah!Humbug

    Not on shift yet? Or run out replies?

  569. Australia is playboy land for Zionist mafia to relax from sparring with triads. It is also the home of a very special race of human beings.

    Over the boulders and
    Under the stones
    The bushman wanders
    Always alone.

    And know my love
    And know always know
    There’ll be soft landings
    Where you go.

  570. And know and always know. Sorry

  571. Jemand – Censorship Improves History 5 Aug, 2013 – 12:38 pm
    “if Australia is such a shitty, racist country…”

    Don’t put yourself down so mate. I have met australians who are very cool people. It’s just that australia has a shitty racist establishment that is supported by shitty racists, in the closet and out.

  572. Jives, please accept Jemand in good faith – I don’t know where the animosity comes from. Did I miss some history here?

    Villager, ditto with Flaming June. FJ has made some casual asides which I think you’ve magnified in significance too greatly.

    Jemand, ditto with Technicolour.

    As far as I can see, all of you are here in good faith. But, where a discussion is started with an attack, a fight will ensue rather than an exchange of views. Let’s keep it constructive!

  573. Doug Scorgie, 11.50

    It’s been obvious for years now that the “facts on the ground” on the West Bank completely contradict any pretensions Israel has to permitting any kind of autonomous Palestinian state. It’s been so obvious,indeed, that the ‘peacemakers’ must have spotted this. What I don’t understand is how Obama/Kerry think they can salvage anything redounding to America’s credit from this or any other charade conducted by the Zionist, ex-AIPAC, ex-WINEP Martin Indyk on behalf of Netanyahu. These talks have been set up to fail. The Palestinians will get the blame, for their intransigence over settlements and East Jerusalem (or, as they persist in calling them, their property). The international community will do fuck-all. Again.

    Still, let’s be charitable. Israel left Gaza in 2005. What can the Palestinian West Bank expect to look like in the unlikely event of Israel handing it back? Or, rather, “handing it back”. Facts on the ground in Gaza, eight years later:

    In August 2005, the last Israeli settlers left Gaza, followed by the last Israeli soldiers in September, as Israel pulled out of the Palestinian territory it had occupied since 1967. The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza gave the general impression, at least in the Western press, that Israel was effectively turning over Gaza to the Palestinian Authority. That was not, and still is not, the case. As B’Tselem, the Israeli information and human rights organization, documents:

    Israel continues to maintain complete control over the air and sea space of the Gaza Strip. No Palestinian may operate a seaport or an airport without Israeli approval, which limits Palestinians’ freedom of trade and travel.

    Israel continues to control the joint Gaza Strip-West Bank population registry, which means Israel gets to decide who is a “Palestinian resident” and who is a “foreigner.” Palestinians must seek Israeli approval for every individual who wants to move to the West Bank.

    The Rafah border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt was supposedly turned over to the Palestinian Authority. In fact, Israel continues to control the crossing to the extent that it may bar entry to “foreigners”—that is, Palestinians who are not residents of the Occupied Territories—or anyone it deems a security risk.

    Israel continues to maintain complete control of the movement of people and goods between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, which Israel considers a “closed military area” off limits to anyone without a permit. West Bank residents are also forbidden from traveling aborad, including to the Gaza Striop, without a difficult-to-obtain Israeli permit.

    As far as trade is concerned, Israel controls the three crossing points in and out of Gaza (Karni, Sufa, and Kerem Shalom). Israel routinely closes the crossings to any exchange of goods, causing severe food and other shortages in Gaza.

    Israel still controls taxation and other levies in Gaza.

    Source, B’Tselem.

  574. Guano, I think the reference to “Muzzies” earlier was sardonically mimicking MSM and soft-racist views against Muslims. I don’t think it was clear or helpful, but it wasn’t intended to be Islamophobic.

    It is unfortunate that the commenter in question appears to habour unpleasant views against a different group instead, though I am more than happy to be corrected on that point!

  575. Jon, thanks for the conciliatory effort but let me have one parting shot for the evening ..

    Phil, don’t kid yourself. If I had a choice between a bunch of uneducated, white-skinned churls from the UK, of which there are clearly sooooo many, or educated brown-skinned people with no particular interest in religion and are of good character from anywhere else, I’d take my brown-skinned brothers ANY day of the week, EVERY time.

  576. Jemand – Censorship Improves History 5 Aug, 2013 – 1:42 pm
    “I’d take my brown-skinned brothers ANY day of the week, EVERY time.”

    So presumably you are disappointed with your government’s racist immigration policy. Please try to be clear because your prevoius comments today give quite a different impression.

  577. Phil, I’m very disappointed with my government’s non-racist immigration policy. And the previous government’s policy. And I’m disappointed that people lie, exaggerate, misconstrue, politicise and grandstand on this issue.

    The basic problem with unauthorised leaking-boat migration is -

    1. People die at sea, including children who have no say in the matter, and

    2. Fake asylum seekers insert themselves amongst real asylum seekers making the potential for fraudulent migration extremely problematic if the problem is not arrested.

    But yeah, I know you’re not interested in studying the facts so hey, just cry “RACISM”. It works everwhere ele.

    And, no, I never gave any impression of anything, you merely made assumptions that suited your political disposition. But, whatever.

  578. “I’m very disappointed with my government’s non-racist immigration policy…just cry “RACISM”…And, no, I never gave any impression of anything…”

    Not only did you give the impression earlie,r you even give the impression a couple of sentences before you deny giving an impression. Hilarious. You don’t seem to consider that denying racism is itself a racist act. On that we disagree.

    “People die at sea, including children who have no say in the matter,”

    You are the man. Everyone else here hates children.

  579. technicolour

    5 Aug, 2013 - 2:51 pm

    “People die at sea, including children who have no say in the matter” – those irresponsible parents, dragging their children away from torture and war. Still, nice to think you see this as a problem – perhaps you’re in favour of publicly funded lifeboats?

    “Fake asylum seekers insert themselves amongst real asylum seekers making the potential for fraudulent migration extremely problematic if the problem is not arrested.” – the ‘fakes’ would be the ones with millionaire bungalows back home who just embark on a, as you rightly remarked, dangerous and potentially lethal voyage for fun, right?

    And in any case the solution is to increase these disgusting levels of incarceration and de facto torture but preferably so far away that people won’t be able to find out what goes on in there, never mind make a fuss about it.

    ‘Racism’ is a small sad word by comparison.

  580. Jemand,

    Ok let’s try to play the ball.

    Our disagreement is about the australian immigration policy. I believe it is racist. You believe it is not.

    Do you agree that describes the nub of our argument?

  581. I’m so glad that I can be of use here on this blog as the proxy object of scorn and whipping boy for sexually frustrated, lonely people who are angry at the world’s injustice.

    Phil, Technicolour, Flaming Mary and Jives – try to get laid once in a while.

  582. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 3:20 pm

    Christian Zionism: The Heresy that Undermines Middle East Peace

    Christian Zionism is the largest, most controversial and most destructive lobby within Christianity. It bears primary responsibility for perpetuating tensions in the Middle East, justifying Israel’s apartheid colonialist agenda and for undermining the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians.

    By Rev Dr Stephen Sizer
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35747.htm

    ~~~

    Read Craig here.
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/01/defend-stephen-sizer/

  583. WTF has anyone’s bedroom activities got to do with any of this? Jemand, that was a blatantly antiparthenogenicist remark.

  584. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 3:31 pm

    I had to look that up Komo. Getting laid means sleeping with your own self?

  585. You can even sleep somewhere else, Ben. Or something. No rumpy need occur.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

  586. Well, not you, obviously. You’d have to be female.

  587. Jemand – Censorship Improves History 5 Aug, 2013 – 3:14 pm

    “I’m so glad that I can be of use here on this blog as the proxy object of scorn and whipping boy”

    Poor you. So wise but misunderstood. Perhaps you might incorporate this latest terrible injustice heaped upon you into a clever new extended name tag. Go on express yourself my friend. Don’t get me wrong, your current one, born from your own struggles, still strikes me as profound.

    “Phil, Technicolour, Flaming Mary and Jives – try to get laid once in a while.”

    Mmmm. People often reveal their own perceived inadequacies in their taunts of others.

  588. technicolour

    5 Aug, 2013 - 3:51 pm

    Well, that certainly startled that passer-by – thanks, Jemand! Perhaps I shouldn’t take your advice quite so literally, on reflection…

  589. Bradley Manning will be sentenced today, having been found guilty of 20 counts on Tuesday, including espionage (despite the lack of evidence for intent to spy and the lack of evidence that his leaking ever did any real harm). Whatever one thinks of Manning’s actions, that we deserved to know some of what he revealed and that his revelations changed the world are undeniable.

    Manning revealed the Collateral Murder video of a helicopter attack in Iraq on civilians including children and two Reuters journalists, whose cameras were taken for weapons.

    Manning revealed the full extent of the corruption of Tunisian dictator Zine El Abidin Ben Ali.

    Manning revealed to the US and Yemeni public the secret drone war that Washington was waging in that country.

    He revealed that then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton ordered US diplomats to spy on their United Nations counterparts.

    His leaks show that then Senator John Kerry pressed Israel to be open to returning the Golan Heights to Syria as part of a peace negotiation.

    Revealed that Afghanistan government corruption is “overwhelming”.

    Manning revealed the degree of authoritarianism and corruption of the Egyptian government of Hosni Mubarak, which was subsequently swept away.

    Manning revealed that hard-nosed realist, former Secretary of Defence Robert Gates, was against striking Iran’s nuclear enrichment facilities because it would only slow their program down slightly, but would inevitably cause Iranians to be angry and mobilized in the aftermath.

    Manning revealed that the Israeli authorities had a secret plan to keep the Palestinian population of Gaza on the brink of food insecurity and poor health, in among the creepiest military operations in history.

  590. technicolour

    5 Aug, 2013 - 3:57 pm

    Still, important research: was I subsequently

    a) slightly less concerned about the treatment of asylum seekers, and specifically treatment which, for example, results in a man stitching up his own mouth and throwing himself onto razor wire, or children being born inside desert prisons, or people being locked up for years without charge or limit

    b) about as concerned as before

    c) not one bit concerned – too occupied with the court case

    d) not one bit concerned – personal pleasure trumps concern for others any day

    Hmmm.

  591. A friend of mine – an Australian – dedicated his blog to the victims of the SIEV X disaster. Unfortunately my friend is offline this long time and his blog is too. But you can read about the SIEV X at Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIEV_X

  592. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 4:04 pm

    “Manning revealed that the Israeli authorities had a secret plan to keep the Palestinian population of Gaza on the brink of food insecurity and poor health, in among the creepiest military operations in history.”

    Yes Mark. I should like to hear from the counter-intuitive, just how Gaza differs from the Warsaw Ghetto .

  593. “Well, that certainly startled that passer-by – thanks, Jemand!”

    hahahahahahahaha – thanks for the laugh, Tech

    Here’s my silly pic contribution of the day
    https://twitter.com/dbbandit/status/364281416747462656/photo/1

    Some parents … you have to wonder … mind you, the kid looks chuffed, if not waterproof

  594. Jon, i don’t do animosity. And although i’m no nationalist, i do wonder when people do hate, of any variety for that matter. I wouldn’t trivialise Mary’s observations i’ve enumerated — its the phenomena of hate pervasively that i say stands in the way of genuine resolution of conflict — if anything it feeds directly into the heart of conflict. When i look at the tree, i want to see the whole of it: all its roots, branches, leaves, flowers and bitter fruit and bark. If i magnify, i want people to see that the devil is truly in the detail of how we react rather than respond from clear brains and clean hearts.

    Because i espouse some of Krishnamurti’s teachings, do you see how hard Mary works to discredit him. As if it makes the slightest difference to me that she should want to have a go at a dead-and-gone man even tough he left behind a monumental legacy of wisdom in his teachings. K was nobody’s guru so no one, least not me, is attached to ‘him’ yet i can only imagine Mary is trying to offend when she attempts with her cheap shots to discredit him. There may still be some hope for her if nothing else in her next life. In the meantime, anybody with an ounce of wisdom would question her brand of compassion — if i were a Palestinian i would reject it. As a human being, i treat it with deep suspicion and therefore question her credibility. Its quite simple.

    Her last shot at hating her country inspired a couple of raised eyebrows including from yourself, but she never engages does she when its pointed out. So, we must see things for what they are. That is the starting point of understanding anything the ‘what is’ not what they could or should be which is the path to further attempts at becoming and division.

  595. 清者自清,浊者自浊

  596. This is not news, per se, but interesting to see what studies showed:

    Global Warming Could Cause 50 Percent Increase in Violent Conflict

    http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2013/07/climate-change-violence

  597. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 4:31 pm

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23541341

    “One of the brothers suspected of carrying out the Boston bombings was in possession of right-wing American literature in the run-up to the attack, BBC Panorama has learnt.

    Tamerlan Tsarnaev subscribed to publications espousing white supremacy and government conspiracy theories.”

  598. “Tamerlan Tsarnaev subscribed to publications espousing white supremacy and government conspiracy theories.”

    That’s going to get right up the noses of the Tea Party. They were chuffed when his identity came out, and they could shout ‘Muslim – told ya’!

  599. doug scorgie

    5 Aug, 2013 - 4:46 pm

    Jemand – Censorship Improves History
    5 Aug, 2013 – 8:32 am

    “I also notice, Flaming Mary, that you like to try and bait me with your anti-Australian propaganda. I guess you also hate us as you hate your own country. All this hate gets us nowhere, can we all get along??”

    Are you the same Jemand that hates Aborigines?

  600. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 5:08 pm

    They will continue to ply their trade upon the Muzzies, Dre. (Guano; I am using their phraseology)

  601. Dreoilin 5 Aug, 2013 – 4:25 pm
    “Global Warming Could Cause 50 Percent Increase in Violent Conflict.”

    Very interesting. It seems fairly obvious that raised temparatures over the long term lead to additional violence. If only in societies competing for resources.

    But I had no idea that a warmer room significantly increases the likelihood of violence by individuals. Interestingly, it fits with the language of violence (steamed up etc).

  602. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 5:14 pm

    Could this happen in the UK? Texas; ‘Nuff said. (go to 2:58)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ob7BDGx3Zo#at=148

  603. Dreoilin: “That’s going to get right up the noses of the Tea Party. They were chuffed when his identity came out, and they could shout ‘Muslim – told ya’!”

    It won’t bother teabaggers in the slightest, because they’ll never get to hear of it. ‘Baggers get all their views from Fox and various hate-radio hosts, who would never dream of troubling them with the truth or awkward facts.

  604. Doug Scorgie, have you stopped downloading child pornography yet? Try to make some more white friends, Doug, you might come to like some of them one day. Then again, maybe not.

    I do have to admit that posting comments on this blog is a little sad considering who I waste my time trying to engage with. There is simply no getting through to uneducated people with emotional problems, the worst being self-hating white people. What’s with self-hating?

    And what’s with frustrated communists who lecture on the virtue of cooperation and sin of racism but then go on antagonise another poster by referring to beer-swilling Aussies in the style that some do of fried-chicken eating negroes? Racist much?

    Or squawking females who pour their hearts out about people who sew their mouths shut (for media attention) but then scoff at dead children at sea? Bleeding heart or bleeding brain? Maybe it’s just a lack of education and low self-esteem.

    What a curious bunch of malcontents you are. You moan about class and systemic abuse and then go on to recreate yourselves as mirror image versions of your ideological enemies. It’s a good thing I have never had the displeasure of meeting you hate-filled creeps in person.

    But the saddest thing of all is the way many of you rally together on Craig Murray’s blog, in complete denial that you are, in the end, a liability to his causes and not an asset. Good for you.

  605. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 5:25 pm

    glenn; If you haven’t heard of Anthony Wiener, he’s a democrat taking lessons from the Tea Party.

    He’s decorating his warts and doubling-down on the stupid because it seems to work on some level of society.

  606. Who upset jemand then?

  607. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 5:51 pm

    @ Phil (14h49)

    “You don’t seem to consider that denying racism is itself a racist act.”
    ___________________

    What sort of logic is that?

    So if someone denies that he’s lying, that itself is a lie?

    If, of course, now I know what you meant – it’s the great Phil who gets to determine who’s a racist!

    And by teh same token it’s the great Habbabkuk who gets to determine who’s a chump.

    Phil, you’re a chump.

  608. technicolour

    5 Aug, 2013 - 5:51 pm

    “then go on antagonise another poster by referring to beer-swilling Aussies in the style that some do of fried-chicken eating negroes? Racist much?”

    - waltrot

    “scoff at dead children at sea?”

    - where did they do that? i will take that ‘squawking female’ immediately to task, though i might use adjectives that make me sound less like Alan Partridge (bless him)

    “people who sew their mouths shut (for media attention)” – and that just about says it all (rapidly shakes post off feet). Reading that great Australian novel Schindler’s Ark is not helping, I must say.

    But perhaps you did not actually watch the videos, Jemand. I’m sure you can not have done, actually.

  609. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 5:56 pm

    @ Mr Scorgie (16h46)

    “I also notice, Flaming Mary, that you like to try and bait me with your anti-Australian propaganda. I guess you also hate us as you hate your own country. All this hate gets us nowhere, can we all get along??”

    Are you the same Jemand that hates Aborigines?”
    ___________________

    I’m surprised to have to ask you this, Mr Scorgie, but would you please supple references and quotations to back up what you say about Jemand.

    Thank you.

  610. technicolour

    5 Aug, 2013 - 5:58 pm

    ps nice Rowson. and Chinese. And Dreoilin, lovely – mutant ninja watermelons will obviously save the world. must get that costume.

  611. Could this happen in the UK? Texas; ‘Nuff said. (go to 2:58)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ob7BDGx3Zo#at=148

    Land of the free and home of the brave, my arse! The young woman is being interfered/touched by the butch cop and that is the Freedom brand US is fucking shoving down the throats of the rest of the world.

    The fascist state that Hollywood sold and the yanks bought, is not much fun to be living in. Although the bastards over here would love to cup a feel of the unsuspecting punters too, but as yet we are not there, and hopefully will not get there either.

  612. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 6:27 pm

    Fedup; They were actually fingered by the fingerwoman. I can’t believe they complied, but it was probably less intrusive than the bullet-nose flashlight at the lockdown.

  613. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 6:30 pm

    The question is why Jemand/Villager/Habbabkuk visit this blog as they complain from their high horses, with affectation of pain, at the comments. It is a rhetorical question of course.

    Generally speaking they tell us nothing and contribute very little.

    I note that one of them has sunk to a very low level today.

  614. Flaming June

    5 Aug, 2013 - 6:43 pm

    A survivor of the Israeli attack on Gaza last November, Jamal al-Dalou who lost ten members of his family, gives his opinion of the ‘peace talks’.

    “Peace” talks are meaningless, says survivor of Gaza massacre
    Joe Catron

    Gaza City 2 August 2013
    http://electronicintifada.net/content/peace-talks-are-meaningless-says-survivor-gaza-massacre/12654

    ~~

    From the same website, how Israel aids the Sri Lankan government in their onslaught on the Tamil people. The author likens it to the treatment of the Palestinians.

    Liam Fox and Adam Werritty had connections to the same Sri Lankan government and visited, as we know, and to Israel too.

    Israel advises Sri Lanka on slow-motion genocide
    Krisna Saravanamuttu

    Toronto 30 July 2013
    http://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-advises-sri-lanka-slow-motion-genocide/12644

    ~~

    See http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/12/the-secret-foreign-policy/
    and
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/11/gould-werritty-a-real-conspiracy-not-a-theory/

  615. “The fascist state that Hollywood sold and the yanks bought, is not much fun to be living in. Although the bastards over here would love to cup a feel of the unsuspecting punters too, but as yet we are not there, and hopefully will not get there either.”

    Brit police can perv it just as well as any yank:

    “The 22-year-old woman was taken into custody at Chelsea police station, where five officers, including one female police constable, removed her clothes by force. The young woman, who has not been named, was left naked in a cell for half an hour after the search, which was filmed on the station’s CCTV and broadcast to the custody desk.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/jul/31/police-action-woman-strip-search

    It’s more usually called sexual assault and voyeurism, but seems only to be a procedural or disciplinary matter when you’re police.

    The IPCC won’t do too much about it. That’d be the light touch regulation thing again. So it all just gets worse and worse. It’s not for nothing that a former senior police officer has said that police are now operating like an occupying army.

    Again, I’d ask people to compare with NI, where there’s a very strict regime now supervising any wrongdoing by police. And they’re all the better for it.

  616. BrianFujisan

    5 Aug, 2013 - 7:04 pm

    Flaming June, here’s another heartbreaking cop abuse video

    Whist Compassion, and Empathy, were earlier topics of discussion.
    I think i could happily ring the necks of both the sordid cop, and the revolting judge.

    And That Poor wee yin Right in the middle of it aLL…INFURIATING

    Cop Sexually Assaults Woman Then Arrests Her For Protesting

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytUl2Ie4E8Y

  617. have you stopped downloading child pornography yet?

    you have the personality of an ugly, spoilt, child who was once raped by a Catholic priest dressed up as a Teletubby – the purple one would be my guess. So you can understand why I feel conflicted about whether or not to pity you.

    sexually frustrated, lonely people who are angry at the world’s injustice.

    Phil, Technicolour, Flaming Mary and Jives – try to get laid once in a while.

    This disgusting perverted racists fuckwit, has the constant of sexual deviance and sexual violence running through his comments. However due to his anti-Muslim stance that he explains away as a result of his a theism, he has been getting away with his racism.

    Further as he pontificates: Interesting too is what company you keep on this blog Indeed, interesting the company that he keeps!

    Finally as any good Scotsman would acknowledge a clear case of; everybody is oot o step cept wor Jock. There he comes running up!

  618. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 8:37 pm

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-usa-wikileaks-manning-idUSBRE97403K20130805

    “”Every single embassy” was affected, said Undersecretary of State for Management Patrick Kennedy, who warned about long-term consequences of Manning’s 2010 leaks to the anti-secrecy website WikiLeaks.

    The releases will have “a chilling effect that will go on for some time,” Kennedy said.

    Kennedy testified at the sentencing hearing for Manning, who was convicted last week on criminal charges that included espionage. The hearing is to help the court martial determine how long the private first class should be in prison.”

    It’s a two-fer. They get max sentence for Manning and by declaring a threat, close the embassies. They are easy to see through. is this what Obama meant by transparency?

  619. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 9:09 pm

    Visions of Pussy Riots dance in Putin’s head.

    Gaga and Madonna–bad girls !

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2013/08/lady-gaga-madonna-facing-punishment-in-russia/

  620. Thanks Herbie for your comment, I stand corrected, the fascist fuckwits have won over here too.

    Brian have you noticed the Judge throughout the incident is keeping herself busy with the little toddler, and is ignoring her mother?

    Ben you are right, the transparent as fuck excuse to shaft that poor young man, and making an example of him for the rest of the would be conscientious objectors whistle-blowers. Shame on Obama, he is as much of a neocon as the crazy drug user in chief and his coterie.

  621. “Baggers get all their views from Fox and various hate-radio hosts, who would never dream of troubling them with the truth or awkward facts.”

    Yes, well, they used to, Glenn. But at the place I visit, they’re now throwing shit at Fox too. They claim that they don’t trust any of the MSM as none of them are conservative enough and they don’t report enough ‘black on white crime’ (and they have labelled a bunch of Republicans “closet Democrats” – as if you could put a cigarette paper between the two parties). But they’re still quoting Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck.

    I’ve read that

    “Cumulus Media, the second-biggest broadcaster in the country, is planning to drop both Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity from its stations at the end of the year”
    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/cumulus-will-drop-limbaugh-hannity-en

    and we’ll have to see what happens after that.
    Maybe Beck will get a boost … Ben?

  622. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 9:32 pm

    You’re not talking about C & L, Dreoilin, are you?

  623. “scoff at dead children at sea”

    Jemand, where was that?

    ——————————-

    “But I had no idea that a warmer room significantly increases the likelihood of violence by individuals. Interestingly, it fits with the language of violence (steamed up etc).” — Phil

    I’m probably more tetchy/short-tempered during hot weather. The discomfort can’t be avoided and this causes impatience and shortened tempers, IMO. I was born on a damp windy island and I live beside the sea, and I like things that way!

  624. Did anybody watch the Panorama programme on the Tsarnaev brothers suspected of being the Boston bombers. I know we have come to expect bias from the BBC but Panorama used to have a passable reputation for balanced reporting. This was pure trial by media. There were no qualifying adjectives like ‘suspected’ or ‘alleged’. The guilt of the Tsarnaev brother still alive was accepted as fact despite him not having been brought to trial. It made no mention of the friend of Tsarnaev killed in his own flat by the FBI. It was so unbalanced it was not worth watching.

    http://rt.com/news/todashev-head-shot-father-009/

    There was no mention either of alternative theories like the security services did it, about which there are voluminous amounts of information on the web. People like Anon et al should watch this and start asking questions of what they consider to be an unbiased medium.

  625. C & L Ben? Don’t know what that is.

    I was talking about angrywhitedude.

  626. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 9:43 pm

    crooks and liars–I thought you hit them on a bad day.

  627. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 9:45 pm

    John; D-dawg has been talking like a magpie; removed all doubt and so everyone is satisfied.

  628. No, Ben, but I’ll drop in there and have a look some day. I like to see what I consider to be the fringe-right are obsessing over. (Not that it changes much)

  629. Calling Mary’s bluff on her leading-light engagement with the blog and vociferous contributions.

    Mary screeches:“What a stinking rotten country I was born into. No wonder I hate it now.”

    Suhayl calmly points out:
    “The UK is certainly a deeply imperialist entity and so entities like Hakluyt are nothing new. I think you’ll find, however, that most countries engage in such covert arms-dealing operations; we are simply one of the biggest arms-manufacturers/dealers in the world. There’s no point hating the place you live in. To feel down about, and to oppose, certain aspects/power-structures/policies is one thing. But to hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.”

    Pray tell us Mary, what is this something different that Suhayl might be alluding to? Lets hear it from the from the Resident Persistent Poster’s (who loves to hog-the-blog), horse’s mouth… Won’t you please help us put our finger on it?

  630. hah! I see I gave a link to Crooks and Liars. I was looking for the story about Limbaugh and Hannity being dropped, and didn’t look properly at the source.

    My very bad

  631. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 10:07 pm

    [Mod/Jon: incessant pestering of another poster, removed]

  632. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 10:13 pm

    Crooks and Liars is ok, but they just cross-post; not much original research. They are not obots, but if you would like to see the putative progressives who are try Balloon Juice and Lawyers, guns and money. Totally in the tank for Obama.

  633. Fucking insanity, and the results of its commercialisation

    What is the underlying driving force of this acceptable body dysmorphism?

  634. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 10:16 pm

    Ben (Sage) Franklin asks from the USA :

    “I should like to hear from the counter-intuitive, just how Gaza differs from the Warsaw Ghetto”
    ____________________

    You may remember, Ben, that some of your fellow-Eminences tried on something similar not so long ago with “Gaza is a concentration camp”.

    They were comprehensively owned and fled in confusion and dismay when confronted with some awkward things called facts and figures.

    And now you’re trying it on with the Warsaw ghetto? And asking US to show that YOU are not a chump?

    Go and have another smoke.

  635. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 10:21 pm

    “……… from the USA ”

    Is that code for your handlers? If they have to switch servers, it may cost you your bonuses, because performance must not be exceeded by budget.

  636. “You can get something which flies, with an onboard camera, for less than £50. And without knowing an arms dealer, you can do a good bit better than that if you spend more.”

    Just tape your mobile phone to a kite.

  637. Villager, rather strangely, asks of Mary:

    “Pray tell us Mary, what is this something different that Suhayl might be alluding to?”

    That’s probably a question better asked of Suhayl.

    I’m sure even Krish didn’t expect the reading of minds, well at least prior to the rapturous concrescence.

    Et tu, habbe.

    ==============

    “Panorama used to have a passable reputation for balanced reporting.”

    Yeah, about 25 years ago.

  638. Fred says, “Just tape your mobile phone to a kite.

    Not much point doing that with mine – it doesn’t take pictures. But for an old Nokia that was made for calls and texts, it does its job as well as the day it was made. No sneaky apps, no GPS spyware, minimal costs – the ideal mobile as far as I’m concerned.

  639. “Not much point doing that with mine – it doesn’t take pictures.”

    Tape somebody else’s mobile phone to a kite then.

  640. Herbie, neighs in with a poor attempt to distract me and shield his leading-light. As i said i want to hear it from the horse’s mouth — or to be perfectly clear from the fillies mouth. Now be a good boy and go do your days study of Krish…stay with Channel 4. Thats what consumers like you were designed for.

    Or if you’re not smoking something this evening read up Aldous Huxley on ‘Krish’:
    http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=30&chid=385

  641. “There was no mention either of alternative theories like the security services did it, about which there are voluminous amounts of information on the web.”

    That’s because Panorama is a serious programme not given to wasting time on laughable conspiracy theories.

    I note you use the term information rather than evidence. That as always is conspicuous by its absence.

  642. “Just tape your mobile phone to a kite.”

    If you want pictures of a seagull’s backside, I suppose ;)

    SyrianGirl talks to a Syrian solder

    “A Syrian soldier Sam talks to me about what he is believes he is fighting for. “We’re fighting for the whole world against Imperialism”, “AlQaeda is run by the US”, “this is not a sectarian war”. As well as updates on Aleppo and his experience in fighting in Qusayr.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamufXxrdv0

  643. Interesting discussion of a recent complaint over the BBC’s description of Jerusalem as an ‘Israeli city’

    http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/ruling-of-higher-authority-bbc-declare.html

    The BBC in rejecting the complaint argued as follows:

    “The advisor [Buckle] acknowledged that Israel’s sovereignty over the whole of Jerusalem was not recognized under international law. However, she considered that Israel had de facto control over the entire city in a political, administrative and military sense. She also noted that Jerusalem was administered as a single entity by the Jerusalem municipal authority which made no distinction between East and West.”

    I expect even habby might be embarrassed by that effort.

  644. Villager, despite earlier correction, repeats

    “As i said i want to hear it from the horse’s mouth”

    That would be Suhayl, again.

    Same as last time.

    He said it.

    Ask him.

  645. Shooting boat people before they reach land can be construed as racist,, letting political asylum seekers fester on islands and disguising it as some sort of ecological experience is also rather shimmy.

    But thanks god we have a far bigger bitch fight in Australia, The Rudd vs. Gillard, gosh you never thought a women can be harder that a man, by inches and by circumference, nor could you believe that Rudd has more than three braincells, without politics and a gullible public believing in the rubbish they are told, this man would be a weeping hobbo.

    So, just as in Israel, past bad behaviour to the incomers has bad consequences for the indigenous population, does this not show that those rejected in the late 18th century here are merely doing to others as was done to themselves?

    And, maybe, Jemand is just a product of his genes.

    And now to Prem Rawat Maharishi, just to balance the wind chimes.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FCzDz8npY

  646. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Aug, 2013 - 11:10 pm

    “Susan Manning, who lives in Pembrokeshire in Wales, has health problems and has not seen her son since 2011. In a rare statement in the Mail on Sunday, she said: “I know I may never see you again but I know you will be free one day. I pray it is soon. I love you Bradley and I always will.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/04/bradley-manning-mother-statement-sentencing

  647. He’s talking about her being something different — its only fair she explains. But you’re doing a good job as a loyal assistant in burying my post. Don’t worry i’m around in the morning and will raise the question again. Don’t forget to report to work on time!

  648. Villager tries logic:

    “He’s talking about her being something different — its only fair she explains.”

  649. “If you want pictures of a seagull’s backside, I suppose ;)

    Not if you point the camera downwards.

    It works, honest, a friend of mine did it and she got some great video of her croft from the air.

  650. “It works, honest, a friend of mine did it and she got some great video of her croft from the air.”

    I believe you Fred, but if we’re talking about covering a protest, and possible filming of police mis-behaviour etc, I don’t think it would do.
    You couldn’t re-direct the camera to where the ‘action’ was, and come to think of it, you don’t have a lot of control over a kite either … it would all be a bit hit and miss.

    Whoever said, “You can get something which flies, with an onboard camera, for less than £50″ — just tell us where. The world and his mother are going to be needing them shortly.

  651. Yes Kempe I was including you in the et al among all the other patriots who never question officialdom. The others know who they are too.

  652. “Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Friday that an estimated 20 trillion to 40 trillion becquerels of tritium from the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant may have flowed into the Pacific Ocean since May 2011 …

    “The constant injection of water that is needed to keep the damaged reactors cool after the core meltdowns of March 2011 are generating a new radiation crisis at the plant that officials appear unable to solve without tainting the ocean and marine life.”

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/08/03/national/huge-leak-of-tritium-feared-in-fukushima/

  653. BrianFujisan

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:04 am

    Fedup
    , yes i noticed that towards the end of video, i found it heartbreaking the wee soul shouting at the bastard whom had just sexually assaulted her mother. and the hard hearted bitch of a judge with her back to the woman’s pleas, as she PLAYS with the Toddler…Made my Blood boil

    Dreoilin, nice one on Syrian Girl, i enjoy her videos, she’s quite the wee star

    Nevermind, meant to say

    shocking are the descriptions, and details of the firestorms in you’re home city, sounds like you’re Grandfather was a brave ol warrior, yet with a heart, and compassion

  654. technicolour

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:04 am

    Hello, Habbakuk: glad to see you are so keen about people answering questions. You are typing about Palestine again. So: have you seen To Shoot an Elephant yet?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXHB2dnd42Q

    “Now be a good boy and go do your days study of Krish…stay with Channel 4. Thats what consumers like you were designed for”

    Villager, my dear, Krishnamurti or not, have you noticed that your style is in danger of crossing over again?

  655. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:13 am

    If I eat fish, Dreoilin, it’s farm raised. I have a nephew who fishes every day in his boat off Catalina.
    Lobster, halibut and shark and squid, every freakin day. I ask him, ‘aren’t you concerned’ he looks at me and says ‘Do you SEE a problem’.

  656. I hope he doesn’t think everything is grand as long as he doesn’t see a three-eyed fish, Ben …

    It’s very noticeable that nobody is doing any follow-up in the MSM. I follow several accounts on Twitter that do.

    G’night

  657. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:45 am

    Goodnite, Dre.

  658. Fred said, “Tape somebody else’s mobile phone to a kite then.

    What is the point in having an unfocussed, undirected set of pictures for a few minutes? If you’re going to spy on a particular person or event, you’re going to need more than a kite and a mobile ‘phone.

    Maybe you were trying to be cute – although it rarely sounds like it from you, in all honesty.

  659. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:53 am

    AlcAnon; Those pics of Fuk are disturbingly worse than those I saw of chernobyl. I can’t believe TEPCO has not been subordinated to a consultant role. It’s getting scarier by the minute.

  660. Ben,

    I note the US hasn’t shut down any of their identical Boiling Water Reactors.

    We may not know the failure modes of later designs but we certainly know how Mark 1 BWRs fail. Yet many are running in the USA right now.

    http://www.nuclear.com/n-plants/index-BWR-MARK1.html

  661. Recommended insight:

    The Palestine Problem in German Politics, 1889-1945

    David Yisraeli, Bar-Ilan University

  662. ” Kempe I was including you in the et al among all the other patriots who never question officialdom. ”

    I am more than prepared to question officialdom when there are adequate grounds to do so but I do not subscribe to the hysterical paranoia of the truth movement which regards every incident as a false flag set-up by the state.

    So tell me which alternative version of the Boston bombing do you believe? That the bomb was planted by the The Craft on behalf of the NSA or that the whole thing was staged with CGI and actors?

  663. Ben said, “glenn; If you haven’t heard of Anthony Wiener, he’s a democrat taking lessons from the Tea Party.

    Hi Ben… yes, was aware of Wiener from the last time around. Seemed a reasonably right-on fellow, so it’s no wonder he was under particular scrutiny. Not that that absolves him of such utter stupidity – especially considering the aforementioned.

    But IOIYAR (“It’s OK If You’re A Republican”) – contrast Wiener’s treatment with Vitter, who got a standing ovation on the floor of the Senate, upon his return after yet another Repug sex-scandal, this particular one being of the prostitute/ nappies (diapers) variety. (The less one knows about the details, the better!) Blustering through (with some poor woman trying to maintain a supportive countenance at your side) only works for the Republican candidates. On the other side, we’re shocked – shocked, I tell you – that anyone would even try to get away with it.

    Maybe it’s because the Rep. party – being Gawd fearin’ Kristians an al’ – wouldn’t have a problem with someone who’d confessed, made their peace with the Lawd, and so who are we to judge them? But the godless Dems are clearly in no position to be forgiven about anything.

    I’d welcome a challenge on the veracity of my general assertion, that the US Republican party has far more scandals, and brushes it off with much more indulgence by the press. (Apart from the lazy “fetch, boy!” type boring challenges, of course.) Frankly, it’s rather obvious which party leans more heavily towards immorality, of a much more harmful form, particularly when it comes to more than personal debauchery.

  664. Btw Ben,

    There was a long duration 6.0 quake in the region yesterday. TEPCO says no damage but one of the nearest active monitors displayed this graphic for a short time just after.

    http://p.twpl.jp/show/orig/avaU5

    Equipment failure I’m sure is the official reason and maybe it was but radiation monitors seem to suffer a lot of failures these days.

  665. Kempe: The only people I’ve heard of who have questioned the Boston bombing, and the Newtown massacre for that matter, have been gun-nut far right-wing lunatics of the end-times, religious freak teabag variety.

    This is not the “truth” movement when it comes to the questioning of other Official Truths.

    Why do you want to conflate these, unless you think it’s conclusive that _all_ questioners of officialdom are to be dismissed, on account of your cheap guilt-by-association? In which case you’ve proved the point you set out to avoid.

    Why don’t you take CM’s personal advice to you, like a good fellow?

  666. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 1:52 am

    “I’d welcome a challenge on the veracity of my general assertion, that the US Republican party has far more scandals, and brushes it off with much more indulgence by the press. (Apart from the lazy “fetch, boy!” type boring challenges, of course.) Frankly, it’s rather obvious which party leans more heavily towards immorality, of a much more harmful form, particularly when it comes to more than personal debauchery.”

    There’s plenty of debauchery on both sides, glenn. The funny part of this saga is that it demonstrates, in shades of grey, the hypocrisy and Puritanism (for which we thank you guys) extant and unevolutionary in our culture. It is in stasis because it is in denial. This, imo opinion is the raison detre of conservatism. It languishes in the past as though it were sacrosanct. The ‘Good Ole Days’ of yesteryear are a phantom. Chasing phantoms is a human enough sort of compulsion, but it does nothing if it teaches nothing. If you can’t learn to live in the present, fully I mean, then you cannot learn from History, IMO. Just a rambling thought on Glennfiddich. Don’t hold me responsible.

  667. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 1:59 am

    AlcAnon; I am no Techie (or a lawyer) so i feign ignorance to save you time. Even if the technology is a template well-considered with sufficient models to extrapolate, there is no data for a failure of this magnitude. The Pacific is the largest of the oceans, but even it’s majestic volume may not be able to absorb and endure the ramifications. As potentially disastrous as this continues to prove, it pales in the face of the non-reponsiveness of those most affected. Instead, we’re focused on a Siener. Go figure.

  668. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 2:00 am

    ‘WIENER’

  669. Simple Truth or Madness?

    6 Aug, 2013 - 2:14 am

    SO CALLED “ELITE” FAMILIES BRED FOR MEMORY NOT INTELLIGENCE

  670. Flaming June

    6 Aug, 2013 - 5:22 am

    I see that Agent Cameron is using the services of yet another American, this time in the NHS. At what cost we ask.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Berwick

    Health safety expert to reveal ‘zero-harm’ NHS manifesto
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23572696

    It would be good if we could have similar assurances that the ComDem coalition had a ‘zero harm’ manifesto.

  671. Flaming June

    6 Aug, 2013 - 5:57 am

    Another billionaire (think of Murdoch, Barclay Bros, Lebedev) takes over a major newspaper, this time the Washington Post by Amazon’s Jeff Bezos.

    Amazon boss Jeff Bezos buys Washington Post for $250m
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23581085

    Note a Ms Lieb’s approval for the deal.

    Not content with exploiting Amazon workers with zero hours working and shutting down UK bookshops, he now becomes an opinion former.

    The Amazon shed (fulfilment centre) at Rugeley is the length of 9 football pitches. It is so long that by the time the workers have walked down its length to the canteen, the half hour allowed for lunch gives them just a few minutes to queue for it, consume it and get back to their work station. Their work activity is monitored by GPS tagging.

    I buy nothing from Amazon. Amazon’s turnover is $61 billion pa.

    PS The NYT has sold off the Boston Globe to the owner of the Boston Red Sox, another billionaire called John Henry.

    http://www.boston.com/business/news/2013/08/03/john-henry-soft-spoken-businessman-with-appetite-for-risk/1Hf612odD0NVczPdbHQkPO/story.html

  672. Flaming June

    6 Aug, 2013 - 6:04 am

    On Thursday some young Palestinian musicians are playing with Nigel Kennedy at the Proms. Only available to listen to live on Radio 3 and on a recording on BBC4 TV on 23 August.

    Proms to host young Palestinian musicians
    Nigel Kennedy to perform Vivaldi’s The Four Seasons with Palestine Strings ensemble from West Bank and East Jerusalem

    http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/aug/02/proms-host-young-palestinian-musicians

    Brilliant news.

  673. The sale of the Washington Post by Katherine Graham nee Koss is yet another example of a yiddish harp falling by the wayside after being used by in-house demagogues and synagogues,as the goyim start voting with their feet,others were London Evening Standard, Newsweek, etc. Will the NYT be next? That the goyim are now able to see through the yarmulkers is a sign of increased human consciousness as Krishnamurthy would say but is there a mind, Villagerski, that can fathom how the Synagogue of Satan worldwide is in sync without a word being spoken amongst it!!? Best unravelled by todays Zion Koan – Will Wellby surpass crypto LBJ with the aid of a David Milliband? Habba already knows the answer.

  674. Flaming June

    6 Aug, 2013 - 8:34 am

    In a search for ‘Syria’ on the BBC website this JP piece is linked to!

    Official: Israel capable of unilateral strike on Iran, if US not committed

    By JPOST.COM STAFF

    08/06/2013 09:47

    Israel is capable of carrying out a unilateral military strike against Iran without operational support from the United States, a senior Israeli official said to Israel Radio Tuesday morning.

    The official doubted US intentions to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons at all costs.

    American conduct regarding Syria, contrary to declarations by President Barack Obama, reveals to Israel that it can’t rely on US assurances, the Israeli official said.

    http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Official-Israel-capable-of-unilateral-strike-on-Iran-if-US-not-committed-322173

    ~~

    Also
    Syrian insurgents execute 450 Kurdish women, children
    Voice of Russia / NEW 47 minutes ago
    … army in an attempt to overthrow the president, have committed a new massacre in the north of Syria, massacring hundreds of women and children.

  675. Did spec savers contribute to Tory campaign funds?

    Today’s scam is to get every driver to have an eye test, very safe and very worthy sentiment. Who the fuck is going to pay for the tests?

    The cost of having a job is rising by the day, as the income from the said job is falling by the day, the self propelled slave units are getting the screw pretty hard.

  676. Kempe at 1.14 am. Well, you could have fooled me. The only thing I’ve ever seen you question is those who question.

    As you know I was talking about the Panorama programme being unbalanced, the programme of which you say: “That’s because Panorama is a serious programme not given to wasting time on laughable conspiracy theories.” It is only by questioning that the truth emerges. People like yourself are so steeped in sycophancy to government propaganda you probably still believe, like they taught me at school, that Cecil Rhodes was a hero we should all try to emulate. Can’t waste any more time on trying to get through to the impenetrable if you don’t take the time to watch the links I provide. Beyond Northwoods asks questions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0aBZ2codFI&feature=endscreen

    Whether it is totally right I don’t know. But balanced programmes get more than one point of view. Panorama was as sycophantic to the government line as yourself.

  677. Calling Mary’s bluff on her leading-light engagement with the blog, vociferous contributions and survey of others’ reasons for visiting.

    Mary screeches: “What a stinking rotten country I was born into. No wonder I hate it now.”

    Suhayl calmly points out:
    “The UK is certainly a deeply imperialist entity and so entities like Hakluyt are nothing new. I think you’ll find, however, that most countries engage in such covert arms-dealing operations; we are simply one of the biggest arms-manufacturers/dealers in the world. There’s no point hating the place you live in. To feel down about, and to oppose, certain aspects/power-structures/policies is one thing. But to hate the country in its entirety suggests something different.”

    Pray tell us Mary, what is this something different that Suhayl might be alluding to? Lets hear it from the Resident Persistent Poster’s (who loves to hog-the-blog), horse’s mouth… Won’t you please help us put our finger on it?

  678. AlcAnon @ 12:49 am

    Thanks v much. Amazing pictures.

  679. Today’s scam is to get every driver to have an eye test, very safe and very worthy sentiment. Who the fuck is going to pay for the tests?

    The driver. And what’s wrong with that? Maybe it should be made a condition of insurance, too. There’s such a thing as personal responsibility. Now, road tax and insurance for bloody pushbikers….

  680. I somehow get the evanescent impression (probably due to my one-ness with the universe, but enough of me) that Villager is a follower of Jiddu Krishnamurti. Of whom it is alleged that he:

    Had multiple surreptitious affairs with his female followers and associates.[1]
    Fought with his publishing collaborator over copyrights and lost the case.[1]
    Dominating and impatient in dialogues, he usually did not allow any viewpoint other than his own to be considered seriously
    Frequently short-tempered and temperamental (His long-time discussion companion David Bohm reportedly went into depression because of Krishnamurti’s attitude)[2]

    Built a cult of mystery and reverence around himself.
    Towards the end of life, claimed that not even one person had understood him and his teachings in his entire life.
    Towards the end of his life, made the grand claim that a “vehicle” like him would not happen again for many hundred years.

    ( http://nonspiritual.net/Jiddu_Krishnamurti. References on site. )

    Perhaps Villager is his reincarnation?

  681. I prefer you with the hat, Dreoilin. It’s a lizard thing, I guess.

  682. The funny part of this saga is that it demonstrates, in shades of grey, the hypocrisy and Puritanism (for which we thank you guys) extant and unevolutionary in our culture.

    Don’t thank us, Ben. We should thank you, for being rid of them. Want some Welsh Nonconformists?

  683. Komodo
    “Now, road tax and insurance for bloody pushbikers….”

    Or new punitive taxes on motorbike helmets and dried flies to subsidise push bikes sales. Hurrah!

  684. Komodo LOL, when did K die? Your powers of deduction seem to be a bit shaky this morning. Also, although i’m glad you’ve been inspired to investigate, and its good to be skeptical, i’d recommend you try a more credible website for your research.

    More importantly if you want to discuss K’s work, i’ll be happy to engage and suggest you choose a topic.

    Meantime i wonder what you make of the trial verdicts in Turkey?
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c5cde18-fdd2-11e2-a5b1-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2bB9bz2tb

  685. The US and UK governments methods of mass population mind control by the use of false flag incidents relies on the premise that you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, however you can NOT fool all of the people all of the time.
    History of false flag
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at-hz3TY1-o

  686. Phil, I’ll say to you what I said to the pushbiker on a blind bend with 100 yards of cars stuck behind him this morning:

    “XXXXing bastarding whoreson shitbtrain wannabe Bradley Wiggins, you DON’T own the bastard road.”

    But fortunately I got past the idiot and only the middle bit would have been audible. It was vastly complimentary compared to what I call the two Lycra bunnies cycling side by side down a narrow B road with twisties. Have we met? I always give you room, for fear of the awful consequences (for me – the law prefers you) if you should wobble unexpectedly into my path. Give me some room too, hey? My petrol consumption is least at 60mph – think of the environment.

  687. Villager: Krishnamurti: Just another fraudulent mystic. Symptoms caused by arterial spasm and reduced blood supply to brain. Been mystic, done mystic, neglected to buy mystic teeshirt. Then grew up.

  688. When did K die? February 17, 1986?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

    Yes, thanks, Komodo, I like her with the hat too.

    “Now, road tax and insurance for bloody pushbikers….”

    Ah now, come on. They don’t cause pollution and they’re doing their health a favour. What’s not to like?

  689. Glad to hear Komodo that you grew up, whatever that means to you it sounds like a conclusion, i.e. you’ve stopped growing up? At any rate, K was no ‘mystic’, nothing mystical about his teachings. Just a good, comprehensive understanding of life as a whole, holistically, based on a deep discovery of the workings of the mind. But i’m not here to persuade you. Good day!

    The Core of the Teachings
    Written by Krishnamurti in 1980 at the request of his biographer Mary Lutyens.
    http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-krishnamurti/the-core-of-the-teachings.php

  690. “When did K die? February 17, 1986?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

    Thanks for that Dreoilin. Was just trying to get across to Komodo that i couldn’t be K’s reincarnation as i was born just a little bit before he died. You may also want to read the link above on the simple Core of his work and tell me if you find anything that one would call mystical there.

  691. Technicolour
    6 Aug, 2013 – 12:04 am

    Thanks for holding the mirror up TC. Was just trying to shake a bore off my back — as innocent as that. Good day!

  692. Jemand, holy cow – that post of yours attacking Doug and, well, everyone, is pretty low even by the standards of your usual aggression. What happened? I let your unpleasant sexually-themed abuse of Fedup stand on the other thread because you didn’t throw the first punch, but honestly, you would be best going elsewhere if you’re going to drag things into the gutter.

  693. One of my sons is in the Netherlands, Komodo. Lots and lots and LOTS of pushbikes. But funnily enough, my son and his GF both had motorbikes – as well as pushbikes. I’ve never heard of any problems.

    But of course, in the Netherlands, as I understand it, there are special lanes for pushbikes just about everywhere. It’s a cultural thing I suppose.

  694. “They don’t cause pollution”….But they do. They increase the fuel consumption and emissions of vehicles stuck behind them from open-road to urban levels. One pushbike can keep a line of cars busy for five minutes on a B road, if traffic is coming the other way.

    Granted, much the same can be said for old ladies and many SUV drivers, but at least the speeds are slightly higher. JCB’s and tractors pull in where they can to let following traffic past – why can’t pushbikers? Answer – to get a license you need to know the Highway Code. To ride a bicycle on a public road, you don’t.

    And the visual offensiveness of sweaty Lycra. Don’t get me started on the visual offensiveness of sweaty Lycra. Please.

    Villager – I’m sure an authentic World Saviour ™ wouldn’t mind your date of birth being a bit before he’s shuffled off. Minding would require rationality, and you wouldn’t want that, and all things are possible when you drop that. No?

  695. Villager
    “Was just trying to get across to Komodo that i couldn’t be K’s reincarnation as i was born just a little bit before he died.”

    You have embraced humility then! I suggest you are not your guru reincarnated for the more obvious reason that reincarnation is nonsense.

  696. I’m having a rant Dre. Don’t take it too seriously. But round here, where cycle paths are provided on BOTH sides of some of the roads, we still get Bradley Wiggins making unpredictable moves in the middle of the rush hour traffic. In the Netherlands, I may be wrong in thinking, there’s a greater sense of social responsibility?

  697. Jon, reminds of who it was who said ” We’re all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”

    Re Jemand/Doug, wasn’t it Doug who threw the first punch again:
    ” “Doug Scorgie
    5 Aug, 2013 – 4:46 pm
    Jemand – Censorship Improves History
    5 Aug, 2013 – 8:32 am

    “I also notice, Flaming Mary, that you like to try and bait me with your anti-Australian propaganda. I guess you also hate us as you hate your own country. All this hate gets us nowhere, can we all get along??”

    Are you the same Jemand that hates Aborigines?”

    Just pointing out though i could be wrong about any prior history, i did wonder where the inspiration for that punch from Doug came from…

  698. Phil, i neither believe in it nor disbelieve preferring to simply say “I don’t know”, but i respect you for your view on it — fine with me.

    And just to be clear, K is not my Guru nor was anyone’s as far as i know and he utterly rejected that notion. But one doesn’t need to reinvent the wheel — his work was indeed very deep — like Einstein, i think he had a special brain or was simply able to push it farther. I don’t take on everything he says at an intellectual level. That would be a pointless game. I question it and relate it to my own life, conditioning and if i see/observe the truth of it then it becomes mine inwardly. Its a process. I am my own guru.

  699. “I’m having a rant Dre. Don’t take it too seriously”

    No, I’m not. And I don’t go for the Lycra much either, in truth.

  700. doug scorgie

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:00 pm

    Jemand – Censorship Improves History
    5 Aug, 2013 – 3:14 pm

    “I’m so glad that I can be of use here on this blog as the proxy object of scorn and whipping boy for sexually frustrated, lonely people who are angry at the world’s injustice.”

    When did you last get laid Jemand?

    Was he good?

  701. Flaming June

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:02 pm

    For the attention of the persistent posters/pests. Get your facts right. My second post is being (deliberately?) ignored.

    Drop it. You are becoming more tedious than usual.

    ~~~
    Flaming June 4 Aug, 2013 – 10:25 am

    Hakluyt is also mentioned on that FCO Association link.

    Hakluyt avoids publicity, but is regarded as having a reputation for discretion and effectiveness among its client base. Hakluyt was founded by former officials of the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakluyt_%26_Company

    What a stinking rotten country I was born into. No wonder I hate it now.
    ~~~

    Flaming June 4 Aug, 2013 – 1:54 pm

    I did not say I hate the people Jemand. I just hate the rotten secretive system that controls our lives.

    ~~~

  702. Komodo, Dre

    I sizzle in my tight pants as I throw myself in front of speed obsessed bikers on the a23.

  703. Flaming June

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:27 pm

    We were given some outrageous anti-Muslim propaganda this morning on Thought For the Day.

    Clifford Longley. Muslims are persecuting Christians, etc
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01dqzvc

    I know that in Syria that the 20% of the population are Christians of ancient origin have been given space in Syria’s secular state. They are now suffering and fleeing in the turmoil created by the terrorists that Hague and Cameron support with words and arms. And the same existed in Baathist Iraq and in Libya although in the latter those of Muslim faith were 97% of the whole.

    Not mentioned on TFTD – What is happening to Christians in Israel

    The plight of Palestinian Christians
    By FAYSAL HIJAZEEN, IBRAHIM SHOMALI
    04/16/2012
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-plight-of-Palestinian-Christians

    Israeli court approves building Separation Wall in Cremisan Valley
    By: Anica Heinlein
    April 26, 2013 11:15 pm
    http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=22418

    ~~~

    Longley is also heard on the Moral Maze along with Ms Phillips.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/clifford_longley.shtml

  704. Villager 6 Aug, 2013 – 11:43 am

    “Phil, i neither believe in it [reincarnation] nor disbelieve preferring to simply say “I don’t know”.”

    I have fairies behind my fridge. They could save the world with a wave but instead prefer night time raids on my leftovers. I have no idea how they open the fridge door. Don’t tell me I haven’t because you don’t know.

    I say reincarnation is nonsense because I have never seen any evidence. Please correct me if you can provide anything, apart from faith, to substantiate the claim for reincarnation. Such life changing information should be shared.

    “K is not my Guru nor was anyone’s as far as i know and he utterly rejected that notion.”

    A man who claims exclusive understanding of the truth with followers who repeat his words even when he tells them not to? If it walks like a goat, sounds like a goat and looks like a goat it probably is a goat even if you call it a horse.

    “…his work was indeed very deep — like Einstein”

    To compare a minor cult leader with someone who radically progressed our understanding of the world betrays devotion and delusion.

    “Its a process. I am my own guru.”

    And that’s ad verbatim what your non-guru told you to believe.

  705. “You may also want to read the link above on the simple Core of his work and tell me if you find anything that one would call mystical there.” — Villager

    “mys·ti·cal
    /ˈmistikəl/
    Of or relating to mystics or religious mysticism.
    Spiritually allegorical or symbolic; transcending human understanding.”

    I have tried to read K, Villager (I mentioned here before that a family member quotes him), but I have never got my head around any of it. I find him hard to read because my brain refuses to process what he’s saying. Maybe that says a lot about me, but I don’t really care.

    It was suggested to me that I might benefit from meditation. It involved “emptying my mind”. I have tried this numerous times but my mind refuses to be emptied. It’s always doing something. Monkey mind, I’m told. But 90% of the time, I live in the day. And that’s enough for me.

    ————–

    Phil, don’t sizzle too much. I’m told that spontaneous combustion is not a myth.

  706. as I throw myself in front of speed obsessed bikers on the a23.

    Make sure it’s something as naff as Lycra, and which can’t manoeuvre, like a Harley, please. Two birds: one stone. Thank you.

  707. Komodo says,

    In the Netherlands, I may be wrong in thinking, there’s a greater sense of social responsibility?

    In Holland the divers know damn fine well, that slightest touch of a bumper to any cyclist, will be ensued with huge hospital bills, compensation cost, and massive repair bills, the resultant is: Cyclists are the king of the road.

    In Germany the same rules apply, I was amazed when I found an eighteen wheeler juggernaut actually stopped because I had the right of way on my mountain bike! A refreshing change, I could have been knocked down with a feather, being used to the road rule in UK that find hunting the cyclists a mandatory part of their drivers test.

    No country on the planet is as Cyclist unfriendly as UK, the pavements are out of bounds, and the roads are out of bounds and unfortunately as yet bicycles do not fly.

    So far as the cycle lanes go, these were “painted” due to the free grant money from the EU that was tapped for other projects and a few lines drawn on the roads, that gave the impression of compliance, and another excuse for the drivers to ignore them or better still to park on them.

    It is a cultural phenomena, same as with the seventy mile an hour pratts sitting on the fast lane and upholding the queens speed limits in their part time capacity as the road speed enforcers.

  708. technicolour

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:45 pm

    Flaming June: Your pessimism about ‘indigenous’ UK residents not standing up for others is, I know you’ll be pleased to see, misplaced!

    Immigration checks disrupted again in Elephant & Castle

    Activists alerted others in the area to the presence of UKBA. They explained that people didn’t need to answer their questions and as a result many people just carried on walking.

    The police became violent towards the activists, pushing one man to the floor, one into the side of a bus and threatening another with pepper spray. Activists were told they were ‘not allowed to film’ and to ‘let them do their job’!

    After 10 minutes or so, the police and UKBA officers came together to discuss what was happening. Immediately after, both the police and UKBA decided to leave the Elephant and Castle area in the cars and van.

    https://network23.org/antiraids/2013/03/07/immigration-checks-disrupted-in-elephant-castle/

  709. doug scorgie

    6 Aug, 2013 - 12:48 pm

    Nevermind
    5 Aug, 2013 – 11:10 pm

    “… maybe, Jemand is just a product of his genes.”

    Yes, diarrhoea runs in the family – it’s in their jeans.

  710. When did you last get laid Jemand?

    Was he good?

    “… maybe, Jemand is just a product of his genes.”

    Yes, diarrhoea runs in the family – it’s in their jeans.

    ——————-

    Whatever about who started it, the person insisting on dragging down the tone is Doug.

  711. Doug Scorgie said;

    Yes, diarrhoea runs in the family – it’s in their jeans.

    I have not laughed so much in ages, that is a heck of a one liner.

  712. No country on the planet is as Cyclist unfriendly as UK, the pavements are out of bounds, and the roads are out of bounds and unfortunately as yet bicycles do not fly.

    Not true wher I live, anyway. My reference to cycle paths above was to pavements clearly signed as cycle paths (God help the pedestrians) which the Lycra mob disdain to use. The law is as unsympathetic to motorists maiming cyclists here as anywhere else. Automatic loss of no-claims bonus, too, if the yellow jersey in his own private Tour de France cuts in front of you in the traffic and winds up squashed. Or gets inside a truck’s blind zone at the lights, ditto. If by some miracle, this less than godlike being is in some barely discernible way at fault, he’s not insured, so you’re I’m still the one who shells out for damage received.

    Any system involving unpowered, uncontrolled, unsteady vehicles -ffs, having a mirror is regarded as a sign of effeminacy by these dudes – in close proximity with ten-wheelers and god knows what else is completely insane.

  713. the seventy mile an hour pratts sitting on the fast lane and upholding the queens speed limits in their part time capacity as the road speed enforcers.

    Agree with that at any rate, lol. Then there’s Mr/Mrs 40 mph who suffers from fear of corners… But what of having 25 mph enforced on you on a 60 mph road by a brace of pushbikers?

  714. Well, if it involves emptying the mind, I suppose that explains a lot.

    Anyway, a better guide to this stuff is Tom Campbell and his big TOE

    http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Tom_Campbell_-_Lectures

    or if you’re feeling just a tad more adventurous you could always turn on, tune in and drop out with Terry Mc Kenna

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYB0VW5x8fI

    WARNING: Some of Mr McKenna’s work is not suitable for children, or young adults of an impressionable nature.

  715. “I have not laughed so much in ages, that is a heck of a one liner.”

    I wouldn’t be relying on you to keep up the tone anywhere. And as a ‘one liner’ it’s not new anyway.

  716. doug scorgie

    6 Aug, 2013 - 1:19 pm

    Villager
    5 Aug, 2013 – 11:12 pm

    “He’s talking about her being something different — its only fair she explains.”

    Villager (Idiot)

    You have the logical ability of a pea.

    Only Suhayl will know what he was alluding to.

    I’ll help you:

    SUHAYL WHAT WERE YOU ALLUDING TO?

    There, see how easy it is?

  717. Herbie 5 Aug, 2013 – 6:47 pm
    “The 22-year-old woman was taken into custody at Chelsea police station, where five officers, including one female police constable, removed her clothes by force.”

    I have twice been locked in police cells naked. And yes, one was in chelsea station. They left me naked for over an hour. In brighton station I was pretty badly roughed up while redressing. I was rescued by other coppers who apologised but laughed when I asked if they would support a complaint. One fella actually said “it’s more than my job’s worth”.

    On neither occassion was there any reason to make me naked. I got assaulted because I taunted the coppers about the sexual tension in the room like the mouthy gob shite I was. I wasn’t charged with anything on either occassion (because I hadn’t broken any laws if that is relevant).

  718. Herbie

    Just watched Terence McKenna. I’m not convinced that the answer to “How do we fight back?” is “by creating art” but … I’ll go away and think about it.

  719. “Its a process. I am my own guru.”

    Qadir Al Jilani said: “Those who do not have a Shaykh, their Shaykh is Satan”.

  720. doug scorgie

    6 Aug, 2013 - 1:34 pm

    Komodo
    6 Aug, 2013 – 10:41 am

    “XXXXing bastarding whoreson shitbtrain wannabe Bradley Wiggins, you DON’T own the bastard road.”

    Near where I live there is an off-road cycle path that I walk along just to annoy the bastards.

  721. Dre

    There’s a lot more to Terry than that, but while you’re thinking about it you might just reflect that much, perhaps all of what you see around you is in fact art.

    ===========================

    Phil

    Obviously the police use strip searches etc as a form of degradation, but surely you’ll agree that forced stripping of a young woman by male officers is well dodgy, especially when they didn’t record the search and tried to disuade her from seeing a lawyer.

  722. Herbie 6 Aug, 2013 – 1:35 pm
    “but surely you’ll agree that forced stripping of a young woman by male officers is well dodgy”

    Sure, yes, of course. I in no way meant to normalise such behaviour. The coppers who assaulted her should be prosecuted.

  723. Phil

    I didn’t think you were condoning it. I just thought it important to emphasize the point.

    The problem really is that the police are out of control, and the more worrying thing is that that seems to be the plan.

  724. Komodo,

    rofl your ire has risen.

    I cycle, and wear Lycra too, but for the mirrors, these are normally the most deadly addendum that given an accident will sheer off fingers, thumbs and other small parts. Given the Lycra pressures!!

    In Germany the pavements are for cyclists as well as the pedestrian, in Holland too, and the penalties for the accidents are rather more substantial than UK.

    But the short of it is; the cyclists who break the rules in Germany or Holland face the full wrath of the police, and in fact these errant cyclists get fined and if they possess a driving license that too will be endorsed.

    so far as the professional drivers (trucks and the likes) are concerned, they are trained based on the notion that everyone on the road is crazy and unpredictable other than the professional drivers! However the car drivers, bless them can hardly walk, yet are given a car and told they can drive!!! I am not anti-driver, in fact I drive myself, and my job used to involve at least 2500 miles driving per calender month. However there is sense, and logic, and then impatient pratts who cannot manage their time, and they intend to compensate for the short fall by driving “more expeditiously” ie being total pratts on the road.

    Let us clarify two points in the maritime rules, and the aviation too, the slowest craft has priority, and that means a poxy row boat can bring a huge oil tanker to a halt. Alas on the roads there seems to be the slowest ie the pedestrian has no rights. This is reflected in the deign of the pedestrian crossings, roundabouts, and roads and pavements. The pedestrian has to walk further and suffer more disruptions to their journey on foot, because the road users have priority.

    Simple fact that all road users are pedestrians too, somehow never dawns on the drivers. Next to pedestrians are the cyclist, who are the slowest which of course means pedestrians on two wheels encroaching on the hallowed speedways we have come to know as our streets and roads. Further, these speedways are not actually fit for the purpose that they serve is another question. Hence no one is happy with arrangements and the most vulnerable ie the pedestrians, and the pedestrians on two wheels get in the neck.

  725. Anyway, here’s Terry when he still looked like Luke Kelly:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzIUNQ9HxzU

  726. Komodo
    “…you DON’T own the bastard road.”

    Not yet.

  727. Passerby
    “and that means a poxy row boat can bring a huge oil tanker to a halt.”

    Mmmm. You might find that reality severely trumps any rules in this situation.

  728. Dreoilin said,

    I wouldn’t be relying on you to keep up the tone anywhere. And as a ‘one liner’ it’s not new anyway.

    Shocks I have to send back the top hat and tails now that I am not going to be admitted to the next Christmas party then. Alas my sheltered life has been a hindrance, and this the first time I have read such a remark.

    Finally have you had your saucer of milk as yet today?

    ====
    Doug Scorgie said,

    Near where I live there is an off-road cycle path that I walk along just to annoy the bastards.

    I rest my case!

  729. Dead right, Phil, and the situation is analogous (having spent some time in a variety of vessels)….the tanker will take a couple of miles to stop, and the rowboat won’t. Practical solution, rowboats stay out of shipping lanes if they know what’s good for them.

    I cycle, and wear Lycra too, but for the mirrors, these are normally the most deadly addendum that given an accident will sheer off fingers, thumbs and other small parts. Given the Lycra pressures!!

    Not sure what you mean about the Lycra, but my m/c fails its MOT without mirrors, and the momenta involved in a collision are considerably higher. There must be a reason for my risking sudden finger snappage and having these lethal items attached to my machine, no?

    As a matter of fact, when I was much younger and riding some unspeakable old rat bike (motor) with about the level of awareness of the average pushbiker (with mirrors, though) I suffered a green-car-on green lane incident, and it wasn’t the mirrors that necessitated the subsequent finger bone resetting, but the clutch lever. I believe you have levers too? Well, ok, who needs brakes if everyone has to go carefully round you without you being aware of their presence? Rip ‘em off. Useless things. And dangerous.

  730. Komodo

    You know those things on bicycles, they are human beings, with homes, friends, feelings and an urge to exercise their bodies while doing something useful like propelling themselves to a remote location instead of parading themselves in a gym. Have you thought about the Sinclair with adapted pedals and an extended spike for your tail in front? You lie on your back and watch the seagulls taking aim…. On second thoughts don’t.

  731. they are trained based on the notion that everyone on the road is crazy and unpredictable other than the professional drivers!

    Bike training schools emphasise this too. Without the qualification. Unfortunately there are not many pushbike training schools, and no legal requirement to attend those.

    I decline to view pushbikers as “pedestrians on wheels”. They are much closer to “Learner moped monkeys without motors” IMHO.

  732. Guano: I’m fine with 70 bhp in one of the best bike chassis ever made. But thanks. Sinclair, lol. But perhaps you meant a recumbent pushbike?

    The bicycles that really get my goat are the “recumbent” kind, where the cyclist is usually in a supine position.

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2006/06/four_wheels_goo_1.html

    (The guy’s a cager, but his heart’s in the right place). He continues -

    My experience has been that, in almost every case, the rider of a recumbent bicycle is a wiry guy with a beard. I’m not kidding. I almost think that the factory making those bikes has a laboratory (over there, that cement block building halfway hidden behind the paint shop) where they clone those riders.

    Another thing about those wiry riders with beards is that they exude an aura of intellectual superiority over the socially-unconscious likes of me. And in fact they probably are smarter than me in raw-IQ terms. Then again, Einstein combined a stratospheric IQ with gaping holes in the common-sense department, so I don’t automatically take such people seriously.

    Matter of fact, I regard recumbent bicycle riders as little more than show-offs.

    Sorta like Ferrari drivers.

    He KNOWS.

  733. (last one, let’s get back to torture. Please.)

    ….doing something useful like propelling themselves to a remote location….

    Yes, but when they get there, why don’t they stay there? Remotely located pushbikers are fine by me.

  734. Komodo said:

    I decline to view pushbikers as “pedestrians on wheels”. They are much closer to “Learner moped monkeys without motors” IMHO.

    That is a matter of opinion and anyone can hold to any kind of opinion, however facts on the other hand point to the speed limits of no more than eighteen miles an hour,….

    Really pointless to debate ,because you hate cyclists, and bear a grudge towards them, hence this debate can never come to any kind of conclusion, other than being an opportunity to reiterate the points of dislike . In fact as I am on record, it is a cultural thing, and UK is inthe ranks of the most cycle unfriendly places.

    Finally Phil, depending on the size, and tonnage of an oil tanker it can take upwards of eight miles to come to a halt, however any master that does not observe the maritime rules will be left sorry for his actions.

  735. Komodo:
    Qadir Al Jilani said: “Those who do not have a Shaykh, their Shaykh is Satan”.

    The meaning of Islam is that I as an individual am accountable to my God personally and privately, in spite of all outside influences by which He is free to test my faith in Him.

    The enemies of Islam tried to introduce the concept that God delegates his authority to others, so that they could claim delegated power from them as Shaykhs or other titles.
    We are asked to check that our leaders are following the correct way in Islam and if we find them to be engaged in falsehood and forbidden things, then there is no listening and no obeying.

    To counter this check on self-appointed or hierarchical power, the false Islam of Salafism, created by the enemies of Islam, puts leaflets in the prayer rooms of colleges explaining that God gives people the leaders they deserve, and independent thinkers are khawarij, apostates.

    Oh dear, when you are down the club you are under red-faced Cameron obeying the law of the land, and when you are in the mosque you are under the bearded mad mullah who meets with the security services and collates your views on UK foreign policy.

    That is obviously not logical. As a Muslim you are a slave to Allah. Cameron and your meddle of muddled mad mullahs, you wish you were sitting on the throne of Allah but that is why He sent a Qur’an, to make everything clear.

  736. Guano

    “The meaning of Islam is that I as an individual am accountable to my God personally and privately, in spite of all outside influences by which He is free to test my faith in Him.”

    Seems very similar to Protestantism. When you throw in the dislike of images and music and the emphasis on the word, it’s not very different at all.

  737. Guano, I was just interjecting a thought for Villager. Who, as far as I can judge, believes that he should be his own Shaikh. I’m not a Muslim, but again, as far as I can see, Mohammed (ppuh) is any Muslim’s Shaikh, so at least one interpretation of that phrase is favourable to all Muslims.

    The enemies of Islam tried to introduce the concept that God delegates his authority to others, so that they could claim delegated power from them as Shaykhs or other titles.

    I doubt it was the enemies of Islam. More that hierarchies are very difficult to avoid in human societies. The only sect I know of that avoids them is the Quakers – who take Jesus (pbuh) as their Shaikh, effectively. It’s not just the Salafists who have hierarchies, either, is it? Think Ayatollah for a second.

  738. Should be ‘Mohammed (pbuh)’, above. Time for an eye test, I think, sorry.

  739. Herbie 6 Aug, 2013 – 1:11 pm
    “or if you’re feeling just a tad more adventurous you could always turn on, tune in and drop out with Terry Mc Kenna”

    Sorry to bang on about my own experiences again…but we are approaching page 5.

    I am fairly familiar with the psychedelic shamanism thing. I have endured days of chanting. I have close friends, and know of many others, who manage pain with psychedelics where medicine has nothing to offer.

    I absolutely believe in the efficacious properties of pschedelics. I know people who are not who I am about to describe and who are only living because of pschedelics. However, some sufferers are in complete denial. It became apparent to me that there is an unspoken predisposition for narcotics amongst many (not all) cluster headache sufferers. They take drugs, they get headaches, they take different drugs. The stories we tell ourselves can be incredibly elaborate, shaped to evade the bleeding obvious. I am saying this because I’ve just read on wiki that mackenna, who looks like no fool, was a lifelong weed smoker who suffered migraines. Go figure.

  740. Komodo
    Before we return to torture may I ask a personal question. It’s not relevant to anything, I am just being nosey, so feel free to ignore. What was your military experience? I’m guessing marines.

  741. @Phil, Rather not say*, but not marines or special forces.

    *Nothing secret, just rather not say…

  742. Just suppose that I had got on my bike and gone to make Jihad in Syria, which I am not entitled to do on my own decision, without an order from a just and knowledgeable person, the first thing I will encounter at the border/airport is an agent of Mossad sharing an office with an agent of Assad, sharing an office with an agent of Obama and Cameron, sharing an office with an agent of a Syrian opposition power-broker.

    I have come to fight for Islam, but there is no office for Islam. It is a political war being orchestrated from London which specialises in Zio-lies about Islam. The war is here on Craig Murray’s blog. How can the Z factor portray Russia as the atheist bad guys for Muslims to fight against? How can the Z factor utilise the Shi’a-Sunni sectarian divide? How can the Z factor utilise the pro-spying-our religion-is-better-than-yours-Salafi – anti-spying normal Sunni inter-sect divide? How can the Z factor introduce an ethnic divide, as they did in Libya, leading to massacres and imprisonment of black people?

    The powers that be have allowed this country of ours and our media to be the intellectual melting pot of every divide and rule initiative that benefits the Zionist enemies of Islam. When Mary says that she hates this country she obviously means that she hates the fact that England has always been the epicentre of believable political lies masquerading as commonsense and tolerance.

    It is a very lovely country, alternating between sun and rain, hills and plains, and the people have not been subjected to war since the removal of Catholic power in 1640, i.e. nearly 400 years. During that time, England has been a factory for political lies with which to control the resources of the world, from Darwin who insinuated racial superiority, Adam Smith who insinuated the legitimacy of money over morality in the execise of power, or Churchill who rolled out the red carpet of Zionism as a religious curator for Christianity instead of the Gospels which had previously been our spiritual guide. Now we were to have an atavistic Biblical authority rooted in a physical Holy Land.

    How much this country has been a factory of lies, it has also been a workshop for justice and creative spirituality. While the factory installed brutal torture in all its colonial lands, where previously Islam justice had been installed, an opposition arose which with Tony Benn foresaw the Zionist New World Order in which financial power merged into moral vacuum.

    The resources of the entire world are currently being poured into the whims and desires of zionists to create an actual physical country, a Babylon, a head of the Zionist snake. The war in Syria is a political process in which Israel crushes its neighbours into submission and commands their resources, moral, political and physical.

    The war in Syria is only a religious war, which is being painted as a political struggle by the powers that be, with reports of Russian and chinese warships, Saudi and Qatar, funds and UKUSIS politcal discussion. The war is about the right of all citizens of the world to be free from dictator torture and the new moral torture of Zionism, in which God’s rules are cancelled in favour of economic power. A war worth fighting for.

  743. @ Herbie:
    Seems very similar to Protestantism. When you throw in the dislike of images and music and the emphasis on the word, it’s not very different at all.

    Protestantism took a bit longer to get there, though. Parallel evolution from Judaism + paganism + Gnosticism + “hang about, we seem to have lost the basic idea here”…

  744. ….+ Platonism. It might have got even closer to Islam if the Arians hadn’t been shut down. Not usually mentioned in CofE RE classes -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy

  745. Guano 6 Aug, 2013 – 3:43 pm
    “Darwin who insinuated racial superiority, Adam Smith who insinuated the legitimacy of money over morality in the execise of power, or Churchill…”

    I’m not certain that darwin or smith insinuated such things rather than being coopted and misrepresented by those who go beyond insinuation. I have nothing to say in defence of churchill.

  746. Phil

    McKenna goes futher than efficacy though. His argument is that these psychedelics are themselves ways of communing with a kind of unmediated consciousness. He looks at how the material world is itself propelling us towards a kind of unitary consciousness and I suppose we can see that potential quite clearly now, with more and more connectivity producing some form of instantaneous immediacy of being, which itself would change quite radically what it is to be a human being.

    It’s not for everyone, I know, but I like him for his grasp of history and culture and he can be very funny and enlightening on his favourite themes. He’s worth it for that alone.

    There’s a huge archive of his work here:

    http://www.prometheanreach.com/terencemckenna

  747. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 4:04 pm

    ” Krishnamurti: Just another fraudulent mystic. Symptoms caused by arterial spasm and reduced blood supply to brain. Been mystic, done mystic, neglected to buy mystic teeshirt. Then grew up”

    Not to turn this into a discussion about one philosopher/mystic, but I am surprised at the materialistic skepticism, worthy of Schopenhauer. You’ve done ‘mystic’? Hard to know precisely what you mean. You may be confusing religion with spirituality. That’s just a guess, but based on your earlier comment about how glad you were the Puritans left your shores, it seems logical.

    Is this the case?

  748. Komodo

    Catholicism was a deviance from Jesus’s pbuh teachings by which his followers decided that God had delegated power to Jesus and therefore to St Peter etc
    Gnosticism was a deviance from the Islam of Judaism by which its followers were persuaded that God was O N L Y the Creator who had been delegated His power from an invisible greater power to whom humans could turn directly, cancelling 10 commandments prayer justice morality boring boring etc.
    Shi’ism was a deviance from Islam by removing obedience to Islam as the criterion of power and delegating it to family blood lines, thus removing Shari’ah justice morality boring boring and they thereby further delegated power to shrines and saints and dead people.

    Islam does not evolve, it is a consistent, timeless rulebook for the safe operation of human existence. Tweaked a bit from prophet to prophet, but not like one lot can’t do adultery and the next lot can.

  749. Yes, we’re approaching page 5. So I thought I’d stick this in here

    J. KRISHNAMURTI

    The Core of the Teachings

    The following statement was written by Krishnamurti himself on October 21, 1980 in which he summarizes the teachings. It may be copied and used provided this is done in its entirety. No editing or change of any kind is permitted. No extracts may be used.

    “The core of Krishnamurti’s teaching is contained in the statement he made in 1929 when he said: ‘Truth is a pathless land’. Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. Man has built in himself images as a fence of security – religious, political, personal. These manifest as symbols, ideas, beliefs. The burden of these images dominates man’s thinking, his relationships and his daily life. These images are the causes of our problems for they divide man from man. His perception of life is shaped by the concepts already established in his mind.

    The content of his consciousness is his entire existence. This content is common to all humanity. The individuality is the name, the form and superficial culture he acquires from tradition and environment. The uniqueness of man does not lie in the superficial but in complete freedom from the content of his consciousness, which is common to all mankind. So he is not an individual.

    Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man’s pretence that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward. Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity. Thought is time. Thought is born of experience and knowledge which are inseparable from time and the past. Time is the psychological enemy of man. Our action is based on knowledge and therefore time, so man is always a slave to the past. Thought is ever-limited and so we live in constant conflict and struggle. There is no psychological evolution.

    When man becomes aware of the movement of his own thoughts he will see the division between the thinker and thought, the observer and the observed, the experiencer and the experience. He will discover that this division is an illusion. Then only is there pure observation which is insight without any shadow of the past or of time. This timeless insight brings about a deep radical mutation in the mind.

    Total negation is the essence of the positive. When there is negation of all those things that thought has brought about psychologically, only then is there love, which is compassion and intelligence.”

    © 1993 The Krishnamurti Foundation Trust Ltd,
    Brockwood Park, Bramdean, Hampshire, England.

  750. Thanks, Komodo

    Maybe if someone were to tell the American fundies that they’re much more closely related to Shia Islam than to Judaism then we might get some progress.

    Fancy selling the idea to Fox.

  751. *Ducks and covers*

    Schopenhauer was one of the good guys. Carters’ whips in the street and my neighbour’s yappy dog have much in common. I also did Nietzsche and Hesse – required reading for adolescents to provide a standard of muddled thinking to avoid thereafter. As spirituality and religion are inextricably entwined, I decline to separate them.

    Guano. Yes. In theory. And from a particular POV. Otherwise no or maybe. Out.

  752. Herbie – not the way it seems to work, unfortunately. They’d be competitors, not allies. Sad, though.

  753. @Guano – you are beginning to sound like a takfiri “MY GOD IS BIGGER THAN YOUR GOD” about to behead us infidels ! Whilst the Islam that ruled over Jerusalem for 1400 years did not touch one shrine, including not one brick of the Jewish Wailing Wall, we have “small timers” like you suddenly assuming a bigger mantle than the caliphs of Islam who had captured Jerusalem? Or are you an ex-yiddish “sherman” Muslim, still harboring delusions of chosenism even under Islam as well, bwahahahaha!

  754. Phil
    “I’m not certain that darwin or smith insinuated such things rather than being coopted and misrepresented by those who go beyond insinuation.”

    I believe that the collective practice of slavery led to the one individual’s justification of racial superiority, which still pleases colonial minds today.

    Similarly the collective practice of colonialism, i.e.concealing the loss inflicted on the primary owner of resources, whether it be indigenous or abroad, led to the justification by one individual of capitalism.

  755. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 4:32 pm

    “Catholicism was a deviance from Jesus’s pbuh teachings by which his followers decided that God had delegated power to Jesus and therefore to St Peter etc”

    All sects and schisms are deviations, but none so profoundly so as the Catholic church.

    Constantine the Great was the convert/founder and the nativist religions of his day were quite upset when he made his brand of Christianity the state religion. To assuage the masses he incorporated many elements of non-christian origin into the mix.

    But most forms of Christianity have those elements as well.

    Classic example; Christmas is celebrated as the birth of Jesus. Dec 25th is not his bday.
    He was born around the 1st or 2nd of October. Dec 25th was a choice made by Constantine because it was a pagan date of significance and could be grafted into the religious practice.

  756. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 4:37 pm

    ” As spirituality and religion are inextricably entwined, I decline to separate them.”

    No need to duck. Just trying to understand what you meant. I won’t try to separate them for you, as that would be a little presumptuous.

  757. doug scorgie

    6 Aug, 2013 - 4:42 pm

    Strange but true in the land of the free:

    “Children given lifelong ban on talking about fracking”

    “Two Pennsylvanian children will live their lives under a gag order imposed under a $750,000 settlement.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/aug/05/children-ban-talking-about-fracking

  758. doug scorgie

    6 Aug, 2013 - 4:56 pm

    Well I’ll be burgered:

    “McDonald’s ties nine out of 10 workers to zero-hours contracts”

    “Britain’s biggest food chain has 83,000 staff on controversial contract as employers body claims economy needs flexibility”

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/05/mcdonalds-workers-zero-hour-contracts

  759. Ok I’m getting my ear bent by my missus and she is right. I should spend some time ‘detoxing’ from the pc. I’m going to try to not switch it on for a while. I’ve enjoyed much of this thread. Ta. See you all in the hopefully not too immediate future.

    Herbie, I did take to mackenna immediately just watching that short clip and will look further later.

    Dre, I find it hilarious that they copyright the truth.

    Guano, I absolutely acknowledge the imperialism you describe except I do not think the racism and worship of unmoral(?) money were ideas of those individuals. Darwin’s evolution does not justify racism and smith held that morality was needed to tame the market. However, they have both been coopted. Especially smith. I am not defending smith’s ideas just saying that his invisible hand is not what the market worshippers say it is.

    FWIW, here’s my thought on spirituality/religion/cults. I was raised religion free, more by indifference than design. I have no personal stake, and little interest, in the detail of which imaginary friend has said what. I wish there were less discussion about theological detail here because the bigger story is elsewhere and we bog ourself down in irrelevant details. But then again I am so simple my faith was probably cemented by a 1970s movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW8fDw8VzKI

  760. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 5:19 pm

    “Life without pain has no meaning.”
    ― Arthur Schopenhauer

    So true. Use a knife for a while and it needs sharpening. The sharpening of such is a form of violence to the metal. In order to sharpen, there must be friction and a loss of metal.

    Christianity as it was intended, is a hardship. It’s not the pain of getting up on Sunday and gong to church. Too many go to ‘have their ears tickled’ and quickly forget the lesson of the sermon.

    It’s a lifestyle which is counter-intuitive to public practice, and often elicits ridicule from peers.

    It was supposed to be difficult to practice, like a camel going through the eye of a needle.
    Very few in Christendom want to tolerate the hardship/commitment and we see the results of that failure. Jesus had no words of condemnation for street-wallkers and publicans, but he had plenty to say about the religious hypocrites of his day. Such hypocrisy was the worst sin, and many non-believers cite that as the primary reason for rejecting Christianity.

  761. Flaming June

    6 Aug, 2013 - 5:23 pm

    Bramshill the police college in Hampshire (329 bedrooms!) is being flogged off. It costs £5.2m to run.
    Asking price £25 m.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertynews/10182611/Home-Office-puts-mansion-with-329-bedrooms-up-for-sale.html

    There is a new College of Policing in the Midlands and this is the first conference under the auspices of ACPO which is a private limited company.
    http://companycheck.co.uk/company/03344583/THE-ASSOCIATION-OF-CHIEF-POLICE-OFFICERS-OF-THE-UNITED-KINGDOM

    Those on the board inc Thornton of Thames Valley. Orde is the leading light. Never made it to Chief Comm/Met though. http://companycheck.co.uk/company/03344583/THE-ASSOCIATION-OF-CHIEF-POLICE-OFFICERS-OF-THE-UNITED-KINGDOM/directors-shareholders#people

    I saw this in the provisional agenda
    http://www.excellenceinpolicing.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Programme-v0.30.pdf

    Thornton is all powerful. She is spending £37.4m on a new comms system
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23571898 in conjunction with Surrey and Hampshire.
    ‘Thames Valley chief constable Sara Thornton said the move aimed to “increase efficiency and continue to reduce costs”.’

    Surrey btw is the source for nearly all the Met chief commissioners. Chief constables in Surrey end up in London. Weird isn’t it?

  762. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 5:38 pm

    Analysis

    Adbullah Ghorab
    BBC News, Sanaa

    The Yemeni capital Sanaa is experiencing unprecedented security measures. The interior ministry has deployed hundreds of armoured military vehicles to secure the presidential palace, vital infrastructural buildings and Western embassies in the capital.

    A security source confirmed to the BBC that Yemeni intelligence services had discovered that dozens of al-Qaeda members had arrived in Sanaa over the past few days in preparation for the implementation of a large plot. The source described the plot as dangerous and as including explosions and suicide attacks aimed at Western ambassadors and foreign embassies in Yemen, in addition to operations aimed at the Yemeni military headquarters.

    A Yemeni military source said the interior ministry had prepared a plan, in co-ordination with the Yemeni intelligence organisations and the anti-terrorism forces, involving “a pre-emptive strike against certain cells suspected of having relations with al-Qaeda, with the aim of thwarting the attack plans”.

    The source revealed the intensive co-ordination and exchange of information that exists between the Yemeni intelligence forces and those of the West and the Gulf nations, regarding threats from al-Qaeda.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23585923

    Several drones kill 4 AQ as Yemen continues to be the source for the Embassy closures. It seems Snowden didn’t damage their intel and operational strikes.

  763. Ben
    There is a constant need to re-assure their separate constituencies that AlQaida and the USUKIS are separate, AlQaida can still murder gay ambassadors, and USUKIS has to close embassies because of AlQaida threats. Otherwise we would not believe them – would we children?

  764. Was The Al-Qaeda Terror Threat Used To “Divert Attention” From NSA Uproar?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-05/was-al-qaeda-terror-threat-used-divert-attention-nsa-uproar

    I would have thought the answer was an obvious Yes.

    So one of two things will happen

    There’ll be a massive bomb blast of some sort in Yemen, in which no Brits or Americans will be killed (they’ve more or less all been airlifted out anyway) in which case they can say, “Look what we saved you from!”

    or, there’ll be nothing at all. In which case they’ll claim that the exposure and drone strikes prevented it. And there was a time I would have believed them. Now, I take it all with a very large packet of salt.

    Meanwhile, didn’t the U.S. claim to have killed Ayman al-Zawahiri several times already?

    And how was he communicating? Email? Phone? I’m quite sure he’s not daft, whatever else he is.

  765. Hasbarista

    ‘…..assuming a bigger mantle than the caliphs of Islam who had captured Jerusalem’

    The mantle is the same, to correct the faith, change ourselves, in order to gain victory. I find it difficult to understand how adopting the tactics of the non-Muslims, viz spying on citizens, creating hierarchies and violence on civilians, is going achieve that victory.

    The entire political shenanigans and chicanery accumulated by the Caliphates and carpet-baggers under colonial rule has to be binned. It is completely infested with lying and trickery. Then you have to block up the holes where the rats have been getting in. I don’t care what political skills in the leadership of the Muslims have to be exposed and thrown out in order to get back to the core of Islam. There were plenty of un-Islamic scams and wheezes that had to be binned before Salahuddin and co. won back Jerusalem.

  766. “… the implementation of a large plot.” (BBC News)

    A large plot… Hmn. ‘Conspiracy theory’, anyone…? Gosh, the Beeb is turning into Prison Planet! Alex Jones must be the new Director General! Or perhaps it’s Stella Rimmington-Dame-Pauline-Neville-Jones-Eliza-Manningham-Buller-Captain-JOhn-Scarlett-woman-conjoined-with-Lord-Doodlipush-of-the-Grand-Old-Duke-of-York’s-Empire-at-the-top-of-the-hill.

    Guano, at 6:22pm: Indeed. While we are airlifting out Brits from Yemen to protect them from Al Qaeda, we are sending in British Special Forces to work with Al Qaeda in Syria and Libya. They are the same shifting paramilitary forces, from Mali to Pakistan. We are in bed with them.

    Newsflash! Al Qaeda has a new religious anthem! From being capable of intoning ‘Allah hu Akbar’ ad infinitum as they saw off human heads on youtube, they now have graduated to, ‘I am William Hague’s Butler (and I take it neat)’.

    Mind you, there are wax cylinders laying around the Afghan orchards entitled, ‘I am Ronald Reagan’s Bitch’.

    So, nothing new, then.

  767. Sky News – coming up

    ‘How a phonecall from Al Qaeda caused global panic’

    should be fascinating

  768. So Sky News is reporting that what was intercepted was a phone call from Ayman al-Zawahiri to the head of AQ in Yemen. I can’t believe they think we’re stupid enough to believe that.

    The teabaggers will believe it though. They not only think that Muslims are evil (without exception) but that AQ are the spawn of Satan and thick as a brick with it. Nevertheless, of course, they believe that AQ pulled off 9/11.

  769. Al Qaeda, Dreolin, was a US creation. It never had the capability to engineer 9/11. Few countries did. The US has to be the main suspect.

  770. From those who brought you the exploding underpants

    Now their (al kaidy) “liquid explosives” is applied to clothes through means of soaking, then the clothes are tumble dried. Presto the explosives does a Houdini and it is an undetectable gazzillion megagigatrillionkilotone thermonuclear bomb of that can blow up the planet, the moon, and the solar system and will not be detectable by any of the measures in the airports. No amount of foundling will yeild postive results either, the only way is for the passengers to be stripped naked, coshed unconscious and strapped onto flat frames and stacked in the cargo holds. That is the only way for safe travel and stopping the planet from getting blown up by the al kaidy franchise.

    Al Qaeda terrorists may have developed undetectable liquid bombs prompting America to evacuate its citizens from Yemen, it emerged today.

    The explosive would be applied wet to clothing and then detonated when dry, according to senior US officials.

    Security experts fear it would be completely undetectable using the current range of security devices operated at airports across the world.

    The phone call transcript is as follows;

    Aymon- Hallo Nasser!

    Nasser- Hallo Aymon!

    Aymon- these infidel pig dogs have bombed the back yard again, and Mrs Aymon has to use to tumble dryer to dry her washing.

    Nasser- I know they bombed mine two day ago, and third Mrs Nasser has kicked up a fuss that I should buy one of these new fangeled washer dryers. But the infidels have bombed Abdul’s emporium and dentistry. Do you know who else sells those?

    Aymon- Nasser, Nasser you are being too attentive to the females, we need ……

  771. EU warrant opt-out ‘could free Julian Assange’: Campaigners warn of four-month loophole before UK rejoins treaty

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-warrant-optout-could-free-julian-assange-campaigners-warn-of-fourmonth-loophole-before-uk-rejoins-treaty-8744948.html

    “The WikiLeaks founder, wanted in Sweden to answer sexual assault charges that he denies, could “evade the law” for up to four months if his European Arrest Warrant (EAW) becomes invalid, according to experts.

    “Last month, David Cameron formally notified the EU council that the UK will repatriate police and criminal justice powers. It will “opt out” of 133 measures, including the EAW.” (more at link)

  772. I know, John, I know …

  773. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 7:43 pm

    Nitro-glycerine? Highly unstable, unpredictable.

  774. “A U.S. military judge reduced potential prison time for Private First Class Bradley Manning to 90 years from 136 years on Tuesday by ruling that some sentences for leaking secret files to WikiLeaks should be merged.”

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/06/military-judge-cuts-bradley-mannings-potential-sentence-to-90-years/

    Not exactly cause for celebration

  775. 4 Yemenis have been killed by a drone strike today due to the supposed Al Qaeda threat. I wonder if any of them were military. When the Yanks killed al Awlaki they also killed a 16 year old US civilian and more than 30 others.

    “In January 2011 Shaye was imprisoned in Yemen on anti-terrorism charges. The Yemeni government, presumably in an attempt to curry favor from the US, or possibly because of promises of aid, told the world media that it had killed Anwar al Awlaki and three other US citizens not under suspicion of terrorism, one being a sixteen-year-old boy. However, Shaye discovered at the site of the drone killing materials that were not in the Yemeni arsenal, including fragments from a US tomahawk missile and cluster bombs, which he photographed and distributed to the press; he also reported that the victims of the drone attack had included 14 women and 21 children.”

    – See more at: http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/06/04/the-united-states-of-extra-judicial-murder-and-imprisonment/#sthash.Pi9kAkqq.dpuf

    When Shaye was recently released from prison I thought it was a campaign success story. Now I’m not so sure whether this journalist, who is not allowed to leave Yemen, was released from prison so he could be killed in these planned drone strikes.

  776. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    6 Aug, 2013 - 7:59 pm

    Beat me to it, Dre. Like he can do 90 years standing on his head, but 136? Civilian prosecutors try to refrain from ‘piling on’ charges related to one offense, so this is hardly a gift.

    How many are convicted of murder, receive life sentences, then get parole after 7 years?

    90 years in a military stockade is worse than execution, except to those who don’t wish to make him a martyr.

  777. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)