Crimea Referendum

by craig on March 6, 2014 12:02 pm in Uncategorized

The principle of self-determination should be the overriding consideration, and the Crimean Parliament’s decision to hold a referendum on union with Russia is something which always needed to be part of a solution.  But plainly  this month is much too fast, and a referendum campaign which gives people an informed and democratic choice cannot be held while the Crimea is under Russian occupation and those against the proposed union with Russia are suffering violence and intimidation.

The EU needs to move towards Putin.  An approach that sticks rigidly to Ukrainian territorial integrity being inviolate is sterile.  An international agreement is possible, if the EU makes plain to Russia that it accepts the principle of self-determination.  Agreement should then be reached on immediate withdrawal of Russian forces into their allocated bases in Crimea, and back to Russia if there are indeed extraneous numbers, and an international monitoring presence for the OSCE.

The referendum should then be scheduled for the end of this year, with guarantees of freedom of speech and campaigning, equal media access and all the usual democratic safeguards, again to be monitored by the OSCE.

The apparent pullback from violence has been very useful, but the diplomatic and economic fallout is still potentially very damaging.  Following the Anschluss, Hitler held a referendum in Austria within one month of the military takeover and received 99.7% support.  At the moment Putin stands open to a legitimate accusation of pulling precisely the same stunt in precisely the same timescale.

 

 

 

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232 Comments

  1. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 12:11 pm

    Agree with you. And if Crimea did declare itself in favour of returning to Russia, so much the better – it would remove yet one more pretext for Russia to bully Ukraine into following its own failed model.

    I would also welcome a referendum in Chechniya. What say the Eminences?

  2. An apple for one comment maker.

    It is very quick but in my opinion it would not matter if it was this month, next month or next year. The majority is likely to be opposed to Ukraine governance and in favour of Russian. Russia must feel somewhat aggrieved that a gift was made of Crimea to the Ukraine and from its point of view it has been stabbed in the back by the mafia of Kiev.

  3. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 12:31 pm

    Tovarish Goss

    You seem annoyed that I agree with many of the things Craig has been writing recently?

    Or do you just object to me saying so? If so, please have a quiet word behind the scenes with the moderator.
    _______________

    BTW, if I were in the business of distributing fruit I’d definitely give you a banana. :)

    [craigmurray.org.uk: John Goss has no more access to moderation than Habbabkuk or anyone else.]

  4. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 12:35 pm

    Tovarish Goss

    “Russia must feel somewhat aggrieved that a gift was made of Crimea to the Ukraine”
    __________________

    I love that sift, understanding, cuddly kind of word : aggrieved. LOL

    Since the Crimea was gifted in 1954, and the Soviet empire and communism fell in 1991, it’s taken quite a time for the Russians to realise they were “aggrieved”.

    Always the useful fool!

  5. The Guardian article is all right except I would not call the Batkivshchyna party moderate. It contains elements, as well as the Timoshenko family, who are very close to the mafia and Zionists. One such is Pashinsky who was caught by his own supporters with a rifle and silencer in the boot of his car. He is my main suspect, as I have seen no others with rifles and silencers, as the assassin who started this coup.

  6. John Goss

    I am open to the idea there was sniping from the protestors side too; I am open to the possibility of false flag sniping as well. But there certainly was sniping from the police and security force side. It wasn’t any one man who “started this coup”.

    The Timoshenkos certainly are oligarchs themselves. I am afraid being “close to the mafia and Zionists” is the norm for politicians throughout the FSU – including Putin, in a very big way.

  7. Craig Murray. Yes, I’ve heard about the gun-carriers of the Ukraine and there seem to be a lot of them from many different factions. What worries me most is that this government that has taken over has not been elected – it has stolen power – and the west, whose hands in this may also not be bloodless, are supporting an illegal government. While the comparisons are not parallel I try to think what would have happened at the time of the Tottenham riots if the rioters had been offered money and the chance to rule if they attacked parliament and forced a change of government. As you said a few days back those who get to become leaders are rarely nice people. The Ukraine is in danger of becoming a tinder-box but my own feeling is that this government will not be in power long, or new borders will be drawn.

  8. That’s how to make more Russian territory

    1. Expel the Tatar majority
    2. Infuse a Russian majority
    3. Hold a free and democratic referendum just for that piece of Ukraine
    4. Presto! Crimea is yours.

    They did it in East Prussia after the Second World War, substitute ‘German’ for ‘Tatar’. As Blue Peter would say ‘Here’s one I made earlier..’ :)

  9. Ba'al Zevul (Even Mail Hacks Don't Read The Mail)

    6 Mar, 2014 - 1:05 pm

    Don’t know about ‘The Eminences’, but I’m neutral. And I think, all things considered, that Crimea is probably so Russian already that it wouldn’t notice the difference if it were formally Russian. Which is what I’m guessing is what Putin is after. As previously stated.

    But Craig has it. This is a mafia clan war, essentially. The deep involvement of the US neocon Nuland and her backers gives Putin as much propaganda as he needs on the subject of outside interference, while pulling the Sudetenland Gambit to justify his own intervention (as Hilary Clinton pointed out, to jeers from the historically blind). In the other camp, there are nationalists, some benign, some not so, and globalisers. But ultimately, this can only result in one bunch of oligarchs or the other parasitising the poor bloody economic infantry, as usual.

    The timing and legality of a referendum are peripheral.

  10. Professor Francis Boyle has described “a more disturbing ‘reality’ possibility” for the unfolding events in Ukraine:

    “I suspect this entire Ukraine Crisis had been war-gamed and war planned quite some time ago at the highest levels of US/NATO. Notice DOD slipped 2 US warships into the Black Sea just before the Olympics under a patently absurd pretext. In other words, what we are seeing unfold here is a US/NATO War Plan. They instigated the fascist coup against Yanukovich. They anticipated that Putin would then respond by taking over Crimea.

    “I suspect the US/NATO/EU response will be to introduce military forces into Western Ukraine and Kiev and thus make Ukraine a de facto member of NATO, which has been their objective all along. They have already anticipated what Putin’s next move after that will be. Notice also the massive anti-Russian campaign by the Western News Media working in lock-step with each other. Another sign that all this has been planned well in advance.

    “I suspect that US/NATO/EU figure that Putin knows they have this offensive, first-strike strategic nuclear capability with a rudimentary ABM/BMD capability so that at the end of the day he will be forced to stand down—or else. Compellence as opposed to Deterrence. Just like during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That is where this US/NATO/EU War Plan is heading on the assumptions that they can keep their deliberate Escalation Dominance under their control and that at the end of the day Putin will be forced to stand down just like Khrushchev did and for the same reasons. That would leave US/NATO/EU in control of at least half of Ukraine as a de facto NATO member state.”

    (https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Ukraine_Riots_2013-14#A_more_disturbing_.27reality.27_possibility)

  11. Abe Rene

    I agree. Ethnic cleansing has a long squalid history. But resolving conflicts needs to be done on the basis that people are where they are now.

  12. An even better Guardian piece!

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/clash-crimea-western-expansion-ukraine-fascists

    So Putin wants Anschluss, while “our” corporate warmongers prefer divide and rule. One seeks unity, the other competing diversity.

    The disconnect at the heart of modernity. Discuss.

  13. John Goss

    An if the Batkivshchyna party is not moderate and Timoshenko is mafia – how would you describe the politics and business connections of the Great Leader?

  14. John Goss

    And in your haste to address the aggrieved Russia perhaps you might wish to spare a thought as to how the Ukrainian and Tatar minorities might be treated going forward – especially given the somewhat patchy record of your boys when it comes to its treatment of minorities. Seriously how good do you think live now looks for these poor people?

  15. ESLO

    Well actually the Tatars (Tartars) and Ukranian minorities have my sympathy. I hope they are treated well by the majority. But let us face it, if there had not been a mob takeover of the legitimately elected government, this would never have arisen. I do not agree with Craig about negotiations and talks should take place at where we are now. I would not have supported the Mark Thatcher led coup in Equatorial Guinea (2004) if that had succeeded either. And I doubt Craig would.

  16. Beeston Regis

    6 Mar, 2014 - 1:40 pm

    What do you make of this Craig? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

  17. Beeston Regis, we discussed it yesterday at length, but thanks for keeping it in the public-eye. It has been largely ignored by MSM.

  18. I favor the immediate referendum, provided Russian forces withdraw before it takes place, and I believe they will. The referendum’s outcome is certainly beyond doubt.

    To wait until the end of the year will just result in Ukraine’s end, as others parts, especially along the eastern and western borders, will want to leave too, especially with American ultra-nationalist slike-presidential candidate Hillary Clinton playing the Hitler card when it comes to Putin.

  19. I’m looking forward to the referendum for the people of rump Ukraine on the question of the IMF’s terms and conditions. There will be one, won’t there?

  20. Ba'al Zevul (Even Mail Hacks Don't Read The Mail)

    6 Mar, 2014 - 1:54 pm

  21. The Austrians would vote the same way now.

  22. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:14 pm

    Trowbridge H. Ford

    If you tell me at least 5 substantial differences between Putin and Hitler I will be glad to educate myself on this matter.

    I for once can tell you about 5 communalities.

    1. Suppression of opposition and reducing legislative branch of power to rubber stamp.

    2. Confrontational foreign policy to straighten support at home.

    3. Support and encouragement of chauvinism and fascism (Russian in this case).

    4. Drive of hegemonic attitude towards neighbouring countries from Belarus to Central Asia and Caucasus.

    5. Masterly planned and executed provocations (similar to Wehrmacht solders dressed in Polish military uniform shooting German civilians).

  23. Ba'al Zevul (Even Mail Hacks Don't Read The Mail)

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:20 pm

    Actually, despite Clinton’s slightly clumsy exposition, there is an eerie similarity between the problem of a German-speaking population in a unified Czechoslovakia, and the Ukraine today. Then as now the US was prominent in its solution – or otherwise. Long before Hitler.

    ‘ After Coolidge became witness of German Bohemian demonstrations,[2] Coolidge suggested the possibility of ceding certain German-speaking parts of Bohemia to Germany (Cheb) and Austria (South Moravia and South Bohemia).[citation needed] He also insisted that the German-inhabited regions of West and North Bohemia remain within Czechoslovakia. However, the American delegation at the Paris talks, with Allen Dulles as the American’s chief diplomat who emphasized preserving the unity of the Czech lands, decided not to follow Coolidge’s proposal.[3]

    Four regional governmental units were established:

    Province of German Bohemia (Provinz Deutschböhmen), the regions of northern and western Bohemia; proclaimed a constitutive state (Land) of the German-Austrian Republic with Reichenberg (Liberec) as capital, administered by a Landeshauptmann (state captain), consecutively: Rafael Pacher (1857–1936), 29 October – 6 November 1918, and Rudolf Ritter von Lodgman von Auen (1877–1962), 6 November – 16 December 1918 (the last principal city was conquered by the Czech army but he continued in exile, first at Zittau in Saxony and then in Vienna, until 24 September 1919).
    Province of the Sudetenland (Provinz Sudetenland), the regions of northern Moravia and Austrian Silesia; proclaimed a constituent state of the German-Austrian Republic with Troppau (Opava) as capital, governed by a Landeshauptmann: Robert Freissler (1877–1950), 30 October – 18 December 1918. This province’s boundaries do not correspond to what would later be called the Sudetenland, which contained all the German-speaking parts of the Czech lands.
    Bohemian Forest Region (Böhmerwaldgau), the region of Bohemian Forest/South Bohemia; proclaimed a district (Kreis) of the existing Austrian Land of Upper Austria; administered by Kreishauptmann (district captain): Friedrich Wichtl (1872–1922) from 30 October 1918.
    German South Moravia (Deutschsüdmähren), proclaimed a District (Kreis) of the existing Austrian land Lower Austria, administered by a Kreishauptmann: Oskar Teufel (1880–1946) from 30 October 1918.

    The U.S. commission to the Paris Peace Conference issued a declaration which gave unanimous support for “unity of Czech lands”.[4] In particular the declaration stated:

    The Commission was…unanimous in its recommendation that the separation of all areas inhabited by the German-Bohemians would not only expose Czechoslovakia to great dangers but equally create great difficulties for the Germans themselves. The only practicable solution was to incorporate these Germans into Czechoslovakia.

    Several German minorities according to their mother tongue in Moravia—including German-speaking populations in Brno, Jihlava, and Olomouc—also attempted to proclaim their union with German Austria, but failed. The Czechs thus rejected the aspirations of the German Bohemians and demanded the inclusion of the lands inhabited by ethnic Germans in their state, despite the presence of more than 90% (as of 1921) ethnic Germans (which led to the presence of 23.4% of Germans in all of Czechoslovakia), on the grounds they had always been part of lands of the Bohemian Crown. The Treaty of Saint-Germain in 1919 affirmed the inclusion of the German-speaking territories within Czechoslovakia. However, over the next two decades, some Germans in the Sudetenland continued to strive for a separation of the German-inhabited regions from Czechoslovakia.

    (Wikipedia, sorry, but it’s concise)

  24. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:20 pm

    Beeston Regis

    Interestingly propoganded (if there is such word in English) matter. First of all I am positive that the hacking was not by Ukrainian KBG but very Russian KGB (similar to the hacking of Nuland’s conversation). Second interestingly the matter of shooting of both sides with the same weapons was referenced to the doctor who has stated quite clearly that she had no access to the wounded Berkut personnel, so she could not make a verdict of similarity of wounds. Thirdly (and this smells very fishy) Russian Duma (puppet parliament) is now enthusiastically investigating this (this looks to me like a bone that was thrown by Putin to his puppet parliament dogs).

  25. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:31 pm

    John Goss

    You said “But let us face it, if there had not been a mob takeover of the legitimately elected government, this would never have arisen.”

    Are you serious? Why could not you look further into the roots of the problem and not just a form? First of all I do question legitimacy of Yanukovich (as much as I question legitimacy of Karimov, Nazarbaev and other thugs). Secondly, the main reason of this all Crimea shenanigans is not what form of revolution has taken place (even if Yanukovich was dismissed by impeachment as Putin claims would have been legally) Russia would have acted as it is doing now. Understandable that Crimea is too important to Russia to risk even possibility of denial of stationing of Russian Black fleet there, so there is no question Russian reaction in a case of ANYONE running Ukraine without approval of Kremlin. Even after Orange revolution Russia had only calmed when received personal assurances that Black Fleet will not be touched, plus Russia was much weaker back in 2004.

    The only way for Kiev to keep Crimea under its authority is to submit to Kremlin. There is no other way. Every diplomatic initiative will be as useful as fart on the wind.

  26. Ангрысоба

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:31 pm

    Interestingly propoganded (if there is such word in English) matter.

    “Propagandized” might be the word you are looking for, although my very own spell-checker seems to have put a big angry red line under it.

    I notice that the Putinistas are all excited about the intercepted call between Lady Ashton and the Estonian foreign minister, although to me it seems obvious that he is reporting what are rumours among many of the protesters.

  27. Your commonalities reduce Hitler to almost our average tyrant, elected strongman and dictator.

    Putin has successfully avoided war when under terrific provocation, particularly when American attack subs wanted to sink the USSR after the surprise assassination of Sweden’s assassination, sank the Kursk by mistake while tracking it when the Chinese were looking into buying one, wanted to attack Syria after a ‘false flag’ gas attack, and hoped to set the scene for a similar domestic one during the Sochi Games.

    Putin is no war monger, only trying to work out national and ethnic problems so post-Soviet Eastern Europe can become a peaceful, prosperous place where Russia is given due recognition, not just a target for the neocons who want to get rid of it because of its potential.

  28. Uzbek in the UK

    One of the first things that Catherine Ashton said in response to the revelation by Paet was that there needs to be an investigation. It is how we like to think we operate in this country too. If there has been a shooting it needs to be investigated. You would agree with that wouldn’t you?

    ‘Interestingly propagandised matter’ but ‘Interesting propaganda’ would probably be better. :)

    I heard a terrible joke about what is propaganda.

  29. Ангрысоба

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:44 pm

    when American attack subs wanted to sink the USSR after the surprise assassination of Sweden’s assassination, sank the Kursk by mistake while tracking it when the Chinese were looking into buying one, wanted to attack Syria after a ‘false flag’ gas attack, and hoped to set the scene for a similar domestic one during the Sochi Games.

    It always helps if you invent examples of Western evil, in order to show off Putin’s magnanimity.

  30. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:46 pm

    One more thing.

    Defeat of Germany (in WWI) is the greatest mistake in history. Hitler

    Dissolution of USSR is the greatest mistake in history. Putin.

    Revanchism in both cases, perhaps?

  31. Uzbek

    I know what you are saying. We are pretty unanimous that just about all the Ukrainian leaders are thugs. But there has been an illegal coup, and those behind it are also thugs.

    Since you had a little risque joke “Every diplomatic initiative will be as useful as fart on the wind.”

    Propaganda is a goose with bollocks.

  32. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:51 pm

    John Goss,

    Honest thank you for English lesson.

    On a matter of investigation, of course I agree. But not by Russian (only). Lets set up commission comprising of some sort of international professionals (either European and Russian, or even better from elsewhere who would have less grounds to be biased).

    The only thing I regret to be reminded by this is DENIAL (greatly SUPPORTED by Russia) of such independent investigation of Andijan massacre. Reminder of that it seems that in this world some of us have more rights (usually comes with whiter skin) than others.

  33. Meant “Sweden’s statsministe”r in my previous post.

    Have you heard this knock-knock joke?

    President Putin to President Obama: “Knock. knock!”

    Obama: “Whose there?”

    Putin: “Crimea.”

    Obama:”Cry Me A Who?”

    Putin: “Crimea river!”

  34. As I see it the civic buildings and things need to be guarded by someone.

    So the only question is, who would the people of Crimea feel most intimidated by, Russian soldiers or Ukrainian soldiers.

  35. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 2:59 pm

    John Goss,

    Well I have spent a lot of time on this blog and I think most of the people here would prefer version of thugishness (if there is such word in English) of political establishment everywhere (including our own UK). But somehow we need to move forward. With thugs running the country we still have to demand respect of our rights and punishment of others crimes, etc.

    Illegal coup, perhaps. But surely this is not the reason of Russian intervention as you stated earlier.

  36. doug scorgie

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:01 pm

    Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 – 2:14 pm

    Trowbridge H. Ford

    If you tell me at least 5 substantial differences between Putin and Hitler I will be glad to educate myself on this matter.

    I for once can tell you about 5 communalities.

    1. Suppression of opposition and reducing legislative branch of power to rubber stamp.

    2. Confrontational foreign policy to straighten support at home.

    3. Support and encouragement of chauvinism and fascism (Russian in this case).

    4. Drive of hegemonic attitude towards neighbouring countries from Belarus to Central Asia and Caucasus.

    5. Masterly planned and executed provocations (similar to Wehrmacht solders dressed in Polish military uniform shooting German civilians).

    Uzbek your, English is amazingly good today

  37. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:05 pm

    Trowbridge H. Ford

    You said “Putin is no war monger, only trying to work out national and ethnic problems so post-Soviet Eastern Europe can become a peaceful, prosperous place where Russia is given due recognition, not just a target for the neocons who want to get rid of it because of its potential.”

    Interesting idea especially “only trying to work out national and ethnic problems so post-Soviet Eastern Europe can become a peaceful, prosperous place where Russia is given due recognition”.

    Now I am somehow convinced that employing your warmongering methodology one can conclude that Hitler was no warmonger either. He also only wanted to work out complicated post WWI ethnic problems, plus Jewish problems (using your definition of problem) and ensure that Europe become peaceful, prosperous place (it is actually written black on white in Mien Kampf) where Germany is given due recognition and not humiliated after WWI.

    Do not you agree?

  38. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:12 pm

    doug scorgie

    Thank you. I always feel embarrassed when lack of my English weaken my arguments.

  39. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:16 pm

    Fred

    If only Crimea was separate entity. But we know that possibility of it is equal to 0.

  40. I am not employing any kind of war-mongering methodology – just talking about the facts.

    Palme was assassinated to trigger a non-nuclear conclusion to the Cold War – what Putin stopped by his spying in Washington, and the counter measures he adopted to stop it from ever getting started.

    The USS Toledo did sink the Kursk – what Clinton wrote $10 billion in Russian debt off in compensation for.

    In short, I don’t see anything much to compare Putin to Hitler, who was a master at making such ‘false flag’ operations to suit his most aggressive ambitions.

  41. Uzbek in the UK

    Your English is very good. I’ve always thought so.

    I don’t think that I have advocated Russian intervention, not in terms of occupation. If you can find somewhere I would be interested to see if I need to apologise for that mistake. However I do believe that like any power it would be seen as weak if Russia did not try to protect what it considered its interests. US bases are spreading like mushrooms. I fear for society. I do not wish to be controlled by Russia or the US. I see Russia and China, though I do not share their philosophies necessarily, as checks against US imperialism, and not only do I believe there should be a proper investigation into the Andijan massacre, but I have subscribed modestly to Michael Anderssons’ film on the subject. The west continues to support the Karimovs despite their dictatorial government. You cannot, and I don’t think you are doing, compare Uzbekistan to Ukraine. Or can you?

  42. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:21 pm

    Paul Rigby

    Your suggestion is certainly very appealing. But bankrupt states (or individuals) are usually not in a strong position to negotiate terms of their bail out.

    And why Ukraine is bankrupt? Not at least because its stronger neighbour (on the east) does not want to see anything challenging coming out of Kiev in either economic or political terms. One need to look at Belarus to see future of Ukraine under Russia.

  43. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:22 pm

    “I am not employing any kind of war-mongering methodology – just talking about the facts.”

    Me too. Just talking about the fact, that you despite your claim seem to ignore.

  44. Careful Craig. Killary got herself into a rhetorical bind when she compared Putin to Hitler. You don’t want to align yourself with the likes of her.

  45. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:32 pm

    In short, I don’t see anything much to compare Putin to Hitler, who was a master at making such ‘false flag’ operations to suit his most aggressive ambitions.

    Talking about “his most aggressive ambitions”. Not sure if this is NOT applicable to Putin (as you claim it does not). Can you please explain in details?

    Intervention to Georgia, pressure on Kazakhstan to join Euroasian union (by blackmailing Nazarbaev with Russian majority in the north), pressure on Azerbaijan (by keeping pulse on Nagorny Karabakh), economic pressure in Belarus (by making sure that potatoes are the only export from that country), gas blackmail of Europe to make sure Berlin and others (in Europe) are not so critical of anything they supposedly should be critical (according to Human Rights Declaration), making sure that all oil pipelines from Central Asia reach Europe ONLY by bypassing Russia, and so on.

    All these at least should make one thing about aggressiveness, do not you agree?

  46. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:34 pm

    Ben

    Lets talk about this comparison. I have already started. Why not notice black cat in perfectly lighted room?

  47. Ba'al Zevul (Even Mail Hacks Don't Read The Mail)

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:36 pm

    “Trowbridge H Ford” (here) ‘Palme was assassinated to trigger a non-nuclear conclusion to the Cold War – what Putin stopped by his spying in Washington, and the counter measures he adopted to stop it from ever getting started.’

    ‘Trowbridge H Ford ( acc.Wikipedia), a former US army intelligence agent now living in Stockholm, among other bloggers, theorizes that Palme, as the UN mediator seeking an end to the Iran-Iraq war, was assassinated because he fell afoul of Iran-Contra.’

    Hmmm. Changed “your” tune a bit, haven’t you?

  48. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:38 pm

    John Goss

    There are certainly many differences between Uzbekistan and Ukraine but one striking similarity is in fact present. Both are experiencing pressure from former (present) big brother which leads to the stagnation (both economic and political) Status quo is what at least Russia wants. Return of USSR (direct control of former soviet republics including foreign policy) is what Putin is after now.

  49. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 3:44 pm

    John Goss

    You said ” I see Russia and China, though I do not share their philosophies necessarily, as checks against US imperialism,”

    Perfectly understandable. Balance of Power theory is still pretty much alive despite resulting in more than 400 years of almost continuous conflicts. I myself was more of Democratic Peace theory man, but your argument (and recent developments) convinced me that more nucs, more tanks, more warships, and more of things that can/will kill are needed to maintain life (I realise this sounds idiotic) on this planet.

  50. I agree Uzbek it does sound idiotic. Perhaps when the dollar crashes we can start again and put peace at the forefront. The hawks (whether the bald eagle or two-headed eagle) have had it all their own way for too long.

  51. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 4:12 pm

    John Goss

    Not to forget that the last Great economic downturn (1929) led to the largest death toll in human history. Considering quantity of nucs that both eagles (and a dragon and a lion) have at their disposal, I am not convinced that there will be many of us left to start things again.

    Or are you sympathetic to Lenin’s ‘I am ready to sacrifice 90% of population to let 10% live in communism’ (something like that)?

  52. The trouble is the west (US in particular) is in so much debt everything working people earn is going into paying it off. I was not talking about Nukes. I’m going to ignore your comment about Lenin because I think people on this blog know I have a great respect for the sanctity of life – all life, so much so, that while I think Muslims have been persecuted I support the recent request for the stunning of animals before slaughtering them, despite religious objections from Muslims and Jews.

  53. Haven’t changed my theories about the Palme assassination one iota.

    The Ira-Contra plotters, led by Ollie North, Navy Secretary John Lehman, and his pals had been planning shortly after Reagan took office to take out the USSR somehow, and when the Swedish statsminister stopped a shipment of arms through Sweden to Iran on November 17, 1985 – what resulted in the White House making claims which could end his Presidency – they decided to trigger the non-nuclear conclusion to the Cold War at Palme’s expense.

  54. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 4:43 pm

    John Goss,

    Thank you for spotting my nukes misspelling.

    Sorry did not mean to offend you. It is just lefties (at least the ones I came across) tend to disregard sanity of life (and freedom for that matter) when it comes to the ideological domain.

    Talking about conditions of working people in US (and it the west in general) and not bringing into conversation conditions of working people elsewhere it is like talking about vegetarian dietary with cannibals. 1 billion Chinese, 1 billion Indians, 200 million Bangladeshi, etc, would HAPPILY swap with the lowest paid working class individual in the west. Hardship of exploitation by local elites (corrupt Communist party or nationalistic driven parties), is a lot MORE comparing to ‘hardship’ that western workers experience from their greedy bankers. We (westerners) of course be better off (morally) not to exploit these (non westerners) but who would agree to pay £20 for a t-shirt made in the UK as opposed to the one for £3 made in Bangladesh by 7 years old girl?

    Let be honest on this matter?

  55. The timing of the proposed referendum is indeed very hasty; it should be postponed, and will naturally elicit comparisons with the Anschluss, as Craig does here.

    Two points though-

    1.The 99.7% voting for union with Germany may have been a fantastic exaggeration, but does anyone doubt that a clear majority of Austrians were pro Anschluss in 1938 ?

    2. The Crimean parliamentarian calling for the snap referendum is himself of Tartar, not Slav, ancestry-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustam_Temirgaliev

  56. Slightly off topic

    I’ve just been watching Cameron losing his bottle after the Brussels’ talks. He has the look of a madman about him. He is angry. I have never seen him so cross. He clearly did not get his own way, which was probably something more immediate. He says he’s not disappointed but his face and manner reflect something different.

  57. The EU, i.e. Frankfurt,is not an innocent and neutral party.

  58. Uzb: something wrong with your logic:

    And why Ukraine is bankrupt? Not at least because its stronger neighbour (on the east) does not want to see anything challenging coming out of Kiev in either economic or political terms. One need to look at Belarus to see future of Ukraine under Russia.

    So why is it Ukraine, this week, that’s more likely to default than Belarus?

  59. Could Res Diss and/or ESLO comment on this, given that they are very vocal in damning Putin when he is similarly authoritarian ?-

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-06/ukraine-update-pro-moscow-leader-arrested-donetsk-russians-block-border-cross-points

  60. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 5:27 pm

    Tovarish Goss!

    “Well actually the Tatars (Tartars) and Ukranian minorities have my sympathy. I hope they are treated well by the majority. But let us face it, if there had not been a mob takeover of the legitimately elected government, this would never have arisen.”
    _________________

    Translation for the non-tovarishes : they asked for it.

  61. Professor Lockerbie, Boyle is right. There were radiological-emergency things going on in the Irregular Challenges game, and more than one of the parallel games featured Ukraine funngames – of course they didn’t come out and say a coup was the trigger. The NWC work would be the tip of the iceberg.

  62. Uzbek

    What you say is right. There are a lot of individual life decisions which have consequences worldwide. Buying fair-trade tea, not buying Uzbek cotton and not buying products tested on animals are things we can all do, providing we know who Uzbekistan is selling its cotton to. But really it would better if exploited workers of these countries started trade unions and fought for better working conditions, higher wages and industrial laws. We did it in this country. Yes, some employers did provide better working conditions than others but if the workers had not fought for these rights we would not have them. I have been watching “Mr Selfridge” on Channel 3 and the unions could not convince the employees that it was in their interest to join a union. But Selfridge was paying them well and working conditions were good. However Selfridges in those days was a high-end department store and he could afford to pay them more. Other companies and industrialists were less considerate of workers’ rights.

    The Labour Party, which was built out of the trades’ union movement, just had the last nail banged down its coffin by Ed Miliband. A book I would recommend, especially when the big depression comes is “The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists” by Robert Tressell.

    I have not taken offence by the way.

  63. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 5:32 pm

    N

    Because Russia keeps Belarus on float. If only Lukashenko changes his course (or Belarusians drop him like Ukrainians did with Yanukovich) than Belarus will experience similar things (as Ukraine now). But I guess many here consider Lukasheno a good legitimate president. He is antiwestern of course.

  64. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 5:33 pm

    “Whose hobby is –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Jewish_Union

    (he has joint Ukranian-Israeli citizenship, and as befits a patriotic son of Ukraine, lives in Switzerland)”

    etc,etc…

    ______________________

    Only page 1, and the Jooos are here already!

  65. John Goss

    I think the minorities in the Crimea will be looking for something rather better than hope when it comes to their treatment by the Russian majority in Crimea. Russia, even post the Soviet Union, has a truly appalling record when it comes to the treatment of its minorities (and anyone who wishes to argue otherwise really is a useful idiot). International protection and formal undertakings will be needed and the arrangements need to agreed well in advance of any referendum, because the one thing you can be assured of is that any leverage for negotiation will disappear once and if the Crimea is incorporated into the Russian Federation.

  66. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 5:37 pm

    Old Mark

    Stalin was Georgian. But it did not stop him to become promoter of Russian chauvinism on a global scale. It even disgusted Chairman Mao (who was until then keenest supported of good communist course and inspired by soviet experience).

    History is full of strange things, and not at least collaborators.

  67. Stephen Morgan

    6 Mar, 2014 - 5:38 pm

    Propagandised should be propagated. Propaganda: that which is propagated, the term originally not having the modern negative connotations, but meaning education.al

  68. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 5:42 pm

    Tovarish Scorgie

    “Uzbek your, English is amazingly good today”
    __________________________

    As good as your punctuation is bad.

    But thank you for an interestingly profound reaction to Uzbek’s points, made with your usual good faith.

  69. Old Mark

    If this joker had tried storming State Buildings in Moscow he wouldn’t be here to tell the story. I hope the Ukranian authorities take a more lenient approach – and to date they appear to have done so despite the massive provocation that they have faced. I suspect that they know all too well that Putin, being the bully he is, is just looking for a cause to walk into Eastern Ukraine.

  70. doug scorgie

    6 Mar, 2014 - 6:11 pm

    “The superpowers often behave like two heavily armed blind men feeling their way around a room, each believing himself in mortal peril from the other, whom he assumes to have perfect vision. “

    “Of course, over time, even two armed blind men can do enormous damage to each other, not to speak of the room.”

    Henry Kissinger: The White House Years (1979

    I hate to quote a war criminal but the above seems to be true.

  71. “But plainly this month is much too fast, and a referendum campaign which gives people an informed and democratic choice cannot be held while the Crimea is under Russian occupation and those against the proposed union with Russia are suffering violence and intimidation.”

    – With respect Craig, you have zero authority not to respect their vote. What you have witnessed was democracy, irrespective of whether it followed the course you personally wish it to or not. Just like the Iraq vote was democracy. Personally I’m with Russell Brand on this and will not vote for a system that produces Iraq war votes or ‘integration’ with Russia. but you do, and hence you are bound by it. It doesn’t suddenly become invalid because it doesn’t follow the path that you see fit, otherwise you don’t really value the system – warts and all – that you say you do.
    There are very good reasons (and some bad) that this vote should have been taken quickly.

  72. History is full of strange things, and not at least collaborators.

    Uzbek in the UK- what evidence is there in Temirgaliev’s past to support your collaborationist smear ?

    I know, given your background, you probably have grounds to assume that non Slavs in the FSU who are pro Moscow must, by definition, be ‘collaborators’- but assumptions aren’t facts.

  73. ‘If this joker had tried storming State Buildings in Moscow he wouldn’t be here to tell the story’

    So, those who occupied government buildings in Kiev a fortnight ago are brave freedom fighters

    Those who seek to occupy government buildings in Eastern Ukraine today are ‘jokers’.

    Useful to get that learnt.

  74. ‘I notice that the Putinistas are all excited about the intercepted call between Lady Ashton and the Estonian foreign minister’

    …and the Natopolitans are all in full ‘move along, nothing to see hear’ mode.

  75. Uzbek

    “Sorry did not mean to offend you. It is just lefties (at least the ones I came across) tend to disregard sanctity of life (and freedom for that matter) when it comes to the ideological domain.”

    Bollocks!

    I think you’ll find that’s true of neo-cons, fascists, conservatives, and even liberals, I’m afraid.

    Grow up!

  76. Apologies for the typo above (‘hear’); Habba is doubtless crouched over his keyboard and ready to pounce on this gross error!

  77. doug scorgie

    6 Mar, 2014 - 7:11 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    6 Mar, 2014 – 5:33 pm

    “Only page 1, and the Jooos are here already!”

    Stop behaving like a child and show some respect…it’s Jews not Jooos.

  78. Oh yes lets bring Tovaritsch Hitler into it, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, now that should feel better now there there. So which part of Moldova/ Bulgaria Poland will be annexed next?

    What would Hitler say to all of this and why has his British equivalent Enoch P. not got a bombastic memorial statue of his likeness yet. Now where are my hobnail boots.

  79. Resident Dissident

    6 Mar, 2014 - 7:29 pm

    “With respect Craig, you have zero authority not to respect their vote.”

    I have not noticed much respect from Putin and Putinistas for the 1991 Independence Referendum when every region in the Ukraine voted by a clear majority for Ukrainian independence – the difference then is that the vote wasn’t made facing the barrels of Russian guns.

  80. “Agree with you. And if Crimea did declare itself in favour of returning to Russia, so much the better – it would remove yet one more pretext for Russia to bully Ukraine into following its own failed model.”

    followed by this:

    “Tovarish Goss!

    “Well actually the Tatars (Tartars) and Ukranian minorities have my sympathy. I hope they are treated well by the majority. But let us face it, if there had not been a mob takeover of the legitimately elected government, this would never have arisen.”
    _________________

    Translation for the non-tovarishes : they asked for it.

    So the Tartars that who now live in Turkey for some time have asked for it, have they? what a load of chickenshit comments here today.

    For the Crimean, Putin barebacking Parliament to undermine the rest of the Ukraione with a referendcum, when the agreement already stipulates elections later on in the year, is undermining Kiev’s interim Government.

    Habby, denigrating others does not grow you a spine, how about telling us, for the first time ever, who should be in charge in Kiev, since you are so up for undermining the Ukraine. Who will be in charge when you had your way? Kiev’s interim Government falls and the Crimean is Russian?

    Come on clever dick, be bold show us your calcified self.

  81. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 7:53 pm

    I do really hope that the quoting of a certain “Professor Francis Boyle” earlier today is not a sign that the Eminences are about to admit the said professor into their Panthéon of political and moral gurus (current false gods : the egregious Dr Paul Craig Roberts, the ineffable Professor Michel Chossudovsky and the insignificant Binoy Kampmark – he of the Commonwealth scholarship, last( har(d of in Australia.

    I must admit, however, that Professor Boyle would be in good company there. Among his various statements and views:

    * Hawaii should seek independence from the US
    * refers to the Israeli blockade of Gaza as a “genocide”
    * Obama was bought and paid for by the Zionists
    * fellow law professor Alan Dershowitz is a war criminal
    and
    * should be shipped off to Israel to strand trial there for war crimes
    * Israel is nothing more than a Jewish bantustan
    * Israel should change its name to Jewistan.

    I predict a bright future for the good Professor on this blog.

  82. “I have not noticed much respect from Putin and Putinistas for the 1991 Independence Referendum when every region in the Ukraine voted by a clear majority for Ukrainian independence – the difference then is that the vote wasn’t made facing the barrels of Russian guns.”

    – Either have I. So where do we go from here?

  83. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    6 Mar, 2014 - 8:05 pm

    Nevermind

    I think you’ve misunderstood me : I was “translating” Kommissar Goss’s language into a clear version of what he really meant. It is he – not I – who believes that “it serves the Ukrainians right”.

    As for the Crimea : if they want to rejoin Russia and so vote in a free and fairly-conducted referendum, then OK. It would have the extra advantage of removing a Russian pretext for acting against Ukraine in the future. That said, if I was advising the Baltic states, I would say “don’t wait until rasPutin does a Crimea on you – expel those Russian bastards NOW”. I’m sure the Russians wouldn’t mind such a course of action, because they are experts in expelling populations.

  84. I especially enjoyed John Kerry raving about the chance with new democracy in the Ukraine and then almost tripping over himself saying that Crimea voting for a referendum to decide their future was unconstitutional and against International Law.But it’s okay to choose a President by counting hands in a crowd.The colours were turned up by the BBC to hide his embarrassment I think.
    It could be coo incidence but there was seemingly for the past 6 weeks much activity and excitement in a little round building in Gloucester.Am sure it was the new menu in the canteen and nothing to do with Ukraine.
    And lo and behold the FM of Estonia is now saying that what was clearly recorded and confirmed as what he said, was not what he really wanted to say.Somebody got their script wrong.
    The UK are all for sanctions as long as “the City” gets an opt out. Maybe that’s what gave Cameron his red neck and face.He was angry alright.Hague looks more and more like a ventriloquists dummy without the ventriloquist.
    Things are moving along for sure but not as NATO wants.Russia has too many good cards at the moment and the West is already blinking.And with that I’ll burst into song with “Georgia on my mind”.

  85. Now the Crimean parliament has voted unanimously to join Russia – something that Moscow will undoubtedly accept – and the referendum in two weeks is to determine aka ratify what has been done.

    Now the fur will really start to fly if the West is willing to go to war over it – what I think won’t happen.

    Putin looks like the big winner to me.

  86. “The UK are all for sanctions as long as “the City” gets an opt out.”

    Nobody is seriously considering sanctions except some idiot Congressmen in America who didn’t bother sitting down and doing the maths.

  87. “Nobody is seriously considering sanctions except some idiot Congressmen in America who didn’t bother sitting down and doing the maths.”

    True enough, but they do the polling math for local re-elections and they can go home and say they did something about xenophobists while Bankers do their numbers unencumbered. :)

  88. Stephen Morgan, propagating is what you do to plants to help their growth. You can buy a propagator to do this. Propaganda is what rich people produce to persuade others to accept something unacceptable. They can buy a politician to do this.

  89. Ba’al Zevul (Even Mail Hacks Don’t Read The Mail)

    If you know nothing about history, try to avoid wikipidia. All that you present seems superficially true, unless you ask yourself a simple question. Why should have been Germany awarded with a territory that had never belonged to it after having just lost a war where the Czechs were on the winning side (do not come up with the holly roman empire please)? If you cannot provide a sensible answer just ignore that gibberish. You probably have not even heard that Benes wanted to incorporate parts of Germany, Lausitz in particular, into the new republic. This was a crazy idea but it clearly demonstrates the balance of power at the Versailles conference.

  90. And the Devil said to David Cameron: “You see how rich Tony Blair is now after his wars in Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan. All this can I give you, if you do my will!”

  91. The neocon’s won’t like it, and thus we’ll get the usual strident anger from the usual suspects in the usual outlets. I begin to wonder if I should bother reading newspapers at all.

    Win Win for Putin. He should withdraw his troops, so will look moderate (which he isn’t). And the referendum will doubtless go his way. And the NATO\US\EU cabal will, again look like idiots – which they are.

    I did note one comment in the Guardian, which I paraphrase. Really, it doesn’t matter, it’s just a choice between different oligarchs, and they are all much the same.

  92. Craig

    “Following the Anschluss, Hitler held a referendum in Austria within one month of the military takeover and received 99.7% support. At the moment Putin stands open to a legitimate accusation of pulling precisely the same stunt in precisely the same timescale.”

    Bringing Hitler as a substitute into the match at the last minute of the game is, in my humble opinion, a clumsy attempt to substitute emotions for cool reasoning. You want to deny or at least bring in some doubt into our minds that Hitler was immensely popular in 1938 in Austria and in the so called Sudetenland where thousands of puerile females pissed into their pants from joy of a having the privilege to greet him (cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6mR1IYyKmo). I have seen better documents but cannot find them on the internet.

    It is becoming increasingly dangerous to say that Hitler was popular and it is only a question of time until any statement of this fact will become in the UK a criminal offense. Finally, it is pointless to contemplate whether he actually got 99.7 or perhaps only 80 percent of the popular vote.

  93. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 10:36 pm

    Old Mark

    You said “I know, given your background, you probably have grounds to assume that non Slavs in the FSU who are pro Moscow must, by definition, be ‘collaborators’- but assumptions aren’t facts.”

    Please read this about Rustam Temirgaliev. It is in Russian but you can translate it via google. He is not Crimean but Volga Tatar. I know for Anglo Saxons all Tatars are the same (as much as all other non-Europeans for that matter). But there is significant cultural, religious (in some cases) and historical difference (not to mention that it was Crimean and non Volga Tatars who were genocided by Stalin).

    http://politrada.com/dossier/persone/id/3949

  94. “I’m sure the Russians wouldn’t mind such a course of action, because they are experts in expelling populations.”

    It’s always so Old Testament with you, habby.

    Meanwhile, here’s that great American comedian:

    “Obama: Russia ‘stealing the assets of the Ukrainian people’”

    That’s his job

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/us-eu-sanctions-obama-russia-ukraine-crimea

  95. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 10:42 pm

    DoNNyDarKo

    Following your logic, let move 20 million Englishmen to Scotland for few weeks (just around Independence referendum time), move few British military divisions to boost Scotish spirit, and let them vote.

    We will of course most likely have quite an opposite effect to the one that is expected otherwise.

  96. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 10:46 pm

    Herbie,

    I am quite grown up I think. Unlike you I lived under totalitarian authority and you have NO idea what it is like to live under constant threat of imprisonment or death. It is like in maximum security prison when you have to walk ONE line, one step left or right and you are shot dead.

    This world I lived in was created by mad lefties. Some remnants of these lefties are quite visible in some of the people on this forum.

  97. Sofia Kibo Noh

    6 Mar, 2014 - 11:07 pm

    Nakba and Awda as they apply to Crimean Tatars plus some interesting stuff re crimea through the eyes of Israel Shamir.
    http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Autumn.htm

    ‘It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes’? Jo Stalin (possibly)
    Decentralised, encrypted and secure referenda and elections now available to any group at minimal cost. Can we use ther genius of Blockchain / Bitcoin to find out what societies realy want.
    https://www.ethereum.org/
    This stuff may take a while to catch on, but it can’t be uninvented.
    Might this be another game changer?

  98. Uzbek

    Nothing you’ve said there, I’m afraid, undermines my point that neo-cons, fascists, conservatives, and even liberals

    “tend to disregard sanctity of life (and freedom for that matter) when it comes to the ideological domain”

    You seem to think this applies to lefties alone. You’re simply wrong. Your analysis of this problem is not deep enough.

    I do understand that your experience colours your view.

  99. Karel (are you still there?)

    I would be interested to know what your link on the other thread said. Something like “The Ukraine parliament agreed to an amnesty. The opposition was not included. It’s illegal”?

    Can you throw any light on what is happening regarding the increase in UK jets to Lithuanian bases and personnel to Poland in the Polish newspapers? Are are the ordinary people aware of this in Poland?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26466250

  100. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 11:48 pm

    Doug Scorgie

    Kissinger is a war criminal indeed. Agree. But also very well known realist when it comes to the international relations. What is clear to me that there are some lefties who share his principal views on such matter. Not at least John Goss with his encouragement of balance of power – China and Russia keep check on US (or something similar that John has said somewhere above).

    So what we have here is (I apologise in advance before church goers) well known war criminal and devoted leftie(s) preach about the same God but in slightly different languages. Just like Catholics and Anglicans do.

    Once again apologies before church goers but I wanted for my argument heat their head straight.

  101. Uzbek in the UK

    6 Mar, 2014 - 11:55 pm

    Herbie

    So far it is lefties who I argue with and trying to explain all complexity of Ukrainian crisis. When next time I argue with neo-cons I for sure will remind them of all their sins.

    But even then, applying purely quantitative analysis it is mad lefties who killed more people around the world. I am not saying that far rightists or neo-cons are better, what I am saying is that simply more people died for (and because of) mad lefties where convinced that their course is right (or left).

  102. “‘It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes’? Jo Stalin (possibly)” Sounds more like Karl Rove to me. Perhaps they were all at it. Your father thinks I’m a supporter of Stalin. Well I read “Khrushchev Remembers” when it first came out, and even he was not a supporter of Stalin.

  103. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:03 am

    Talking about Kissinger. Back in old days Putin has visited henry at his home. As far as I remember it was probably back in 2001. It is not well known what exactly he was talking with henry about but fact remains fact. It is probable that Putin was looking for some sort of inspiration. Just like own British UNfavorite Blair when visited museum home of Niccolo Machiavelli.

  104. Oh my, yes, that Professor Francis Boyle, he’s always putting his foot in his mouth.

    Israelis are genocidaires. How tactless. Keeping them like ‘drugged cockroaches in a bottle’ is not genocide, it’s entomology! ‘Putting them on a diet’ is very, very different than extermination as defined in Rome Statute Article 7.2.b, very different indeed.

    But Mister Kuk, you forgot Boyle’s most tactless idea. So did Wikipedia!

    http://warisacrime.org/node/24273

    Imagine, rubbing everybody’s nose in the one time the US government used 10^13/g milled anthrax under its secure control for an attack on its domestic civilian population. So what! We were at war with the terrorists! Spike Bowman had to destroy the evidence! He was keeping us safe! Illegal biological weapons of mass destruction, illegal-schmillegal.

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2010/05/01/podcast-show-28/

    Well at least he didn’t say it was Jews poisoning the well.

  105. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:06 am

    “‘It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes’?

    It is old bloody uncle Jo. I confirm. In russian original is read as “Неважно как проголосуют, важно как посчитают.”

  106. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:13 am

    Note how slowly this thread is all going back to anti-israeli domain.

    What a hell Russian intervention to Ukraine has to do with Israel?

    Really?

  107. Uzbek

    You’re not making an argument about political systems. You’re just telling us what you like or don’t like.

    Which is OK. We all do that. In fact that’s mostly all we do.

    You’ve become remarkably westernised in your short time here.

    Well done!

  108. But Uz, That’s cause Mister Kuk always calls you on your hidden biases. Like when that nasty Professor Francis Boyle caught the US making its plan and conspiracy for war in Ukraine in breach of jus cogens and customary international law i.e. Article 8 bis, Mister Kuk just knew what that mean old anti-Semite was thinking. That mean old anti-Semite Francis Boyle was thinking that the Naval War College must be full of NSA JEws with their war games. I bet he won’t be happy till they game a pogrom there!

  109. To your suggestion, Craig, that the Crimean vote should be at the end of the year: this, I’m afraid is a bit naive in the face of fast moving facts-on-the-ground in Kiev. You are assuming good intentions and well meaning people among the coup leaders and self-appointed “government”. But every indication is that, whatever they are, well-meaning is not part of it.

    The Crimeans in fact have no choice if they want to strike for independence and/or joining Russia. There is a need for speed, given the plans by the Kiev puppet government (junta, if you wish) to move towards Nato ASAP. There was already an action in that direction and there is hardly any objective party out there who doesn’t see what the regime-change plan was about.

    The difference between Russia and the West is that crimea is an existential problem for Russia as Putin sees all too clearly. But for the West, it’s all just a “game of thrones”.

    I do understand that there are well meaning parties out in the west, as there are in Russia. Unfortunately, the well-meaning group is not the one making the power plays.

  110. Uzbek in UK @10.36

    Thanks for your clarification; I read your link, courtesy of google translate; it contains a good deal more biographical info than his wikipedia entry, but still no real evidence that he’s a ‘collaborator’.

    He is apparently a ‘Volga’ Tatar and not a Crimean Tatar- are the ethnic linguistic and cultural differences between the 2 groups greater or lesser than the equivalent differences between Uzbeks in Uzbekistan, and their compatriots in Afghanistan ? Or is it just that one Tatar group was uprooted by Stalin while the other group was left alone (insofar as Stalin could leave anyone unhindered) ?

    If the Tatars in these different locations differ more than their Uzbek counterparts, please outline what these greater points of difference actually are, beyond the fact that only the Crimeans were deported by Stalin.

    I certainly don’t presume that’they all look the same’ but would appreciate your thoughts, as you clearly think the distinction between the two groups is important

  111. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:58 am

    Has this somehow missed the radar of the public?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h79v9uirLY

  112. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:16 am

    Old Mark

    It is too long history of division to explain here in details. The key facts is that Crimean Tatars became part of Russian Empire the latest of all tatars while Volga tatars became part of Russia the first.

    Most of Crimea Tatars are Muslims while some Volga tatars are christians. Forced into become christians by Ivan the terrible (infamous Cross or Sword).

    The fact is that Volga Tatars are Russians by citizenship (and most of them in their minds) and most of them are loyal to Kremlin. They (by centuries) have been denied their culture, language and heritage. In most of their minds their ancestors were barbarians who were modernised by Russians when Ivan took over Kazan. Although there was some cultural and religious revival since Eltcin’s era, this has been backtracked when Putin started to build vertical of power. He did not want to neglect Tatars to allow them to develop into Chechens sort of nationalists.

    With regards to Crimea Tatars, since joining Russian empire in 18 century there have always been resistance drive against Russians. It resulted in repressive policies towards them from czarists and then communist governments in Russsia. There is a lot of similarities between Crimea Tatars in Chechens in fact (drop Russian terrorist propaganda). Both resistant to Russian rule and both (despite genocidal deportation) kept their resistant spirit live.

  113. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:23 am

    Herbie

    I think you need to read my post more carefully mate (in response to this and on other Ukrainian crisis related thread). All I have been doing is criticising political system and how wrong history have been to some submitted by Russians and here you shoot me with your silver bullet.

    Of course I feel you want me to join ranks and start prising Mr Putin for his stance against ‘morally corrupted’ west. But since it was me who lived under Russian hegemony and not you, I have my reservation just as yet to sing prises to yet another wave of Russian Chauvinism.

  114. TO ALL -FROM THE “ANGRY ARAB…” BLOG:-

    US versus Russia: for the record

    US is outraged that Russia is using fake excuses to (possibly) invade Ukraine.
    US used a variety of fake excuses to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, and a whole bunch of other countries where it is waging covert wars.
    US is outraged that the Russia is planning uncredible referendum in the Crimea to legitimize its rule.
    US conducted a whole bunch of bogus referenda in Iraq and Afghanistan to legitimize its occupation there.
    US is outraged that Russia is relying on puppets in Ukraine to further its interests.
    US established puppet regimes to further its interests.
    US is outraged that Russia is invoking “national security” to interfere in the Ukraine, its neighbor.
    US invaded countries 10,000 miles away from its shore in the name of national security.
    US media are saying that Putin is crazy.
    Well, US elected George W. Bush twice. Enough said.
    US is outraged that Russia claims that there are fascist and Nazi groups active in Ukraine protests.
    US claimed that it invaded Iraq because Al-Qa`idah was active in Iraq, when in fact there was no evidence whatsoever that Al-Qa`idah was ever present in Iraq until the US invasion and occupation. Of course, there is evidence that there are fascist and Nazi groups active in Ukrainian protests (people quibble whether they are 10% or 30%).
    US is outraged that Russia claims that it is worried about Russians in Crimea and Ukraine.
    US in fact claimed that it needed to invade Iraq because Saddam was about to invade the US (look back at the speeches of George W. Bush).
    US is outraged that Russia has a base in Crimea (and another in Tartus in Syria).
    US has military bases in more than 130 countries of the world.
    US is invoking international law in its argument against Russia.
    US mocked international law and organizations when it invaded Iraq.
    US claimed that Russia flew Russians to Crimea to bid its cause there.
    US flew a whole bunch if Iraqi exile groups and Afghan exile groups to further its occupation causes there.
    US claims that Ukraine should decide its destiny without outside interference. This one is too funny to comment on.

  115. “US versus Russia…”

    Not one word of which justifies Putin’s aggression.

  116. BrianFujisan

    7 Mar, 2014 - 5:33 am

    Hullo Courtenay….

    Kool post there… Its all just Fkn Surreal…. the utter Hypocrisy… Spewing forth from the rabid warmongers…. And their Bitch media $%*£%&#$’s

    A good Piece Hear…. by Felicity Arbuthnot

    ” The delusional and mind stretching hypocrisy of Western leaders and spokespeople regarding the outcome of external meddling in the Ukraine increasingly mirrors King George 111 whose: “life and reign were marked by a series of military conflicts involving his kingdoms, much of the rest of Europe, and places farther afield in Africa, the Americas and Asia …”
    He also, of course, lost America, accused of having: “plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people”, a mantle America’s settlers seamlessly took over, first against the indigenous population, before moving further afield in 1798 – ceaselessly ongoing. History taught Britain nothing either, except to slavishly become a snarling, yapping lap dog in the very expensive, detrimental trans-Atlantic “special relationship.”
    George was finally diagnosed with recurrent – and eventually permanent – mental illness. Perhaps delusion can too easily become the price of power.
    “You just don’t go invading another country on completely phony pretexts. It’s really 19th century behaviour in the 21st century”, said Secretary of State John Kerry, slamming Russia for: “invading another country on completely trumped up pretext.” He, UK Prime Minister David Cameron and Foreign Secretary William Hague, were, of course cheerleaders for illegally invading Iraq on “completely trumped up pretext.”
    Kerry rounded off 4th March with: “Freedom would never be achieved by bullets and provocation.”
    Think Panama, Grenada, Yugoslavia – lawless Kosovo carved out of Serbia – Afghanistan, funding the foreign organ eaters, beheaders and hand choppers of Syria in order to “violate the sovereignty”, years of threatening Iran – and, and, and.
    David Cameron, having taken his orders from Washington, spoke to German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande stating they had agreed to: “speak with one voice and send a clear message to Russia that its actions in Ukraine were completely unacceptable”, there would be “costs and consequences” for Russia which had violated: “the sovereignty and territorial integrity of another country.”
    William Hague, in Kiev to embrace an entirely illegitimate administration some of whom are photographed using Nazi arm gestures, said of Russia: “The world cannot just say it is OK, in effect, to violate the sovereignty of another nation in this way” and Russia’s actions and support of the Crimean region could not be allowed to become the: “normal way to behave in international affairs.”
    President Obama, in charge of Gulag Guantanamo, in contravention of his electoral vow to close it, personally ordering drone strikes on individuals, funeral gatherings, wedding parties, farmers, child wood gatherers and villages from Pakistan to Yemen, Afghanistan to Somalia. Obama, also involved in the destruction of Libya, thus party to the appalling assassination of the country’s Leader and the assassination of someone purported to be Osama bin Laden in an illegal incursion in to Pakistan, has charged that President Putin is “on the wrong side of history.”
    Nicholas Burns, former Undersecretary of State under George W Bush and former US Ambassador to NATO accused: “Obviously Putin has won the Crimea through brute force.” Well no, apart from a few shots in the air on the 4th March, not a shot has been fired, unlike the slaughterhouses generated by various “international coalitions” – and Russia has a legal agreement for anchorage of its Black Sea fleet there until 2042. In Sevastopol, where the fleet is based, much of the population in fact have Russian passports.
    America of course has nine hundred bases in one hundred and fifty three countries.

    by Felicity Arbuthnot

    Dandelion Salad
    London, England
    March 6, 2014

    http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/

  117. BrianFujisan

    7 Mar, 2014 - 5:37 am

    Don’t ignore the Spell Checker thingy…

    The above piece….is but a section of a fuller article BTW.

  118. @Craig @ 12:45 6 March

    Interesting to see that the ‘possibility’ of there having been snipers on the insurgents side; but only in the context that there were unquestionably snipers on the Yanukovych government side.

    Until the Ashton telecon, it was treated as self-evident that the Yanukovych security services were responsible for the snipers; following it – well Oh dear how do we counter that is the question/order of the day.

    It is further confirmation of the syndrome that I have been pointing to ad-nauseam – damage limitation in support of the over-arching UK-US-NATO position.

    Why, WHY I want to know, can Craig not concede the possibility that the snipers were from one side only, and that it may NOT have been Yanukovych? Note that I am only asking to MAY here, just an exploration of the evidence from a disinterested prespective rather than a transparently partisan effort at damage limitation.

    The reason I suggest is self-evident: viz, to admit to such a possibility is just tooo destructive of one’s world view. Just as to admit to the mere POSSIBILITY that 9-11 was and remains not what it seems is too scary

    Meanwhile everyone here runs round and round in circles with the trivia. Refusal to acknowledge that bloody gigantic elephant in the room it seems is a perennial human defense mechanism against nasty viscous reality.

    For anyone interested I’ve precis’d more info into the Wikispooks page and would welcome help in fleshing it and other stuff out further – some here will be delighted to know it includes stuff about the Joooo’s – Oh dear – yet another elephant.

  119. John Goss,
    yes your translation is essentially accurate. There are no references to the troop movement to Poland in the ensuing discussion.

    I sit in Lyon for most of the year and normally do not read Polish newspapers. The only interesting news, I found, was a reference to 12 F16 planes landing on Monday at the base in Łaska. But this story has already appeared in the MSM albeit with a considerable delay. These jets would, apart from some humanitarian bombing, hardly provide enough punch to chnage matters on the ground.
    Mere posturing.

  120. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 8:16 am

    “f you know nothing about history, try to avoid wikipidia. All that you present seems superficially true, unless you ask yourself a simple question. Why should have been Germany awarded with a territory that had never belonged to it after having just lost a war where the Czechs were on the winning side (do not come up with the holly roman empire please)? If you cannot provide a sensible answer just ignore that gibberish. You probably have not even heard that Benes wanted to incorporate parts of Germany, Lausitz in particular, into the new republic. This was a crazy idea but it clearly demonstrates the balance of power at the Versailles conference.”

    Valid comment. I had to use Wiki as shorthand, and am aware that the issue was not as clearcut as either side would like to believe. There was a large German population in that part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, however, and the Czechs declined to concede that German localities could be attached to Austria. If the Germans had lost the war, the Czechs certainly didn’t win it; they were on the same side. The people may not have been happy with this (see ‘The Good Soldier Schweik’ for a devastating take on the Czech soldier’s opinion of his German-speaking officers), but as usual, the people didn’t have any choice, and the post-WW1 arrangement was made without reference to their preferences.

    But all I really intended to point out was that the wellbeing of Germans in Czechoslovakia was a genuine issue before Hitler came along and capitalised on it…much as the issue of Russians in Ukraine is now.

  121. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 8:21 am

    PS, I may know nothing about history, but I do know which side the Czechs were on in WW1, and you apparently don’t. Just for emphasis…

  122. Ba’al Zevul (Let’s Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    Well, tell me then. Czechs did not alone win the war but at the final stages contributed towards defeating the very “bad” ones. It may come as a surprise to you that after the coup in Prague on 28th October, i.e. 2 weeks before the armistice was signed on 11th November 1918, Czechs, like the Russians in Crimea this week, used troops to secure militarily the territory of their future state. If this was not a decisive victory over Austria-Hungary then let me know what a victory means. Reading the novel by Hašek is a good start but unfortunately he died before finishing it so that the description of the war´s end is left out.

  123. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 9:37 am

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    6 Mar, 2014 – 8:05 pm

    “…if I was advising the Baltic states, I would say… expel those Russian bastards NOW”.

    About 60% of the population in Crimea are Russian bastards Habbabkuk should they be expelled by the minority?

    I’m sure the Russians wouldn’t mind such a course of action, because they are experts in expelling populations.”

    What about the Zionist Jews then?

  124. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 9:56 am

    Karel – The Czechs fought with Austro-Hungary from 1914 to 1918. The coup took place only when Vienna had surrendered and the Austro-Hungarian acceptance of peace conditions was announced. The war was over, in all but name, on the Eastern front. To claim a victory over a power which you have been (however reluctantly, but actively) supporting for four years, at the point at which the power has been ground into rubble by your then enemies, is not, in my judgement, any kind of a victory over the enemy, however happy it makes you. My assertion stands. And don’t get me wrong – the Polish and Czech performance in WW2 was heroic beyond belief.

    Interesting point re. the Czechs doing what the Russians have done, though. That nationalism thing cuts both ways, doesn’t it? When the Czechs do it, great. When the Germans do it, boo…. I assume you are for the Russian annexation of Crimea, anyway, and I broadly agree that it makes some kind of sense to do it.

    Peace.

  125. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 10:06 am

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    6 Mar, 2014 – 8:05 pm

    “…if I was advising the Baltic states, I would say… expel those Russian bastards NOW”.

    have you actually said that? I screened the posts above but could not find one.

    If yes, not cool man not cool. As much as I hate Russian chauvinism, and as much as I now support bloody Karimov’s policy of removing Russian language from official state language, I do NOT support forcible removal of people, whatever their ethnicity is. Although majority of Russians emigrated to Baltic states during Soviet occupation and settled there, there is no right to remove them forcibly. Russians of course need to accept sovereignty of Baltic nations and their right to self determination. Right wing nationalistic policies must be avoided but in most cases assimilation of monitories require changing some of their attitude and dropping chauvinistic nature of their character.

  126. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 10:25 am

    It is fascinating how western media is now calling Russian military personnel in Crimea pro-Russian gunmen. Nothing is safe from Russian propaganda, even so called ZBBC.

  127. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:05 am

    Tovarish Scorgie

    “Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    6 Mar, 2014 – 8:05 pm

    “…if I was advising the Baltic states, I would say… expel those Russian bastards NOW”.

    About 60% of the population in Crimea are Russian bastards Habbabkuk should they be expelled by the minority?”
    ______________________

    Haven’t you got the Baltic states mixed up with Crimea?

    Sigh…..never mind, Doug…..

  128. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:06 am

    Cheer up, Uzbek…and remember the UK’s priorities –

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/mar/06/steve-bell-cartoon-obama-cameron-ukraine

    Q. What’s the difference between the owner of a hedge fund manager (such as Crispin Odey, at random – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crispin_Odey – ) and an oligarch?
    A. Dunno.

  129. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:07 am

    Am I the only one who noticed that Crimea is not Texas and people do not keep 1.5 guns per family at their home. Appearance of 15.000 gunmen overnight (or 2-3 nights) is something that breaks laws of physics. There was no substance and then the substance appeared leaving no material trace. As far as I remember it also breaks Russian own scientist Lomonosov’s law.

    May be Crimea is physical anomaly that needs to be carefully examined. Why spend billions on the research project in Switzerland when such wonderful opportunity exists in Crimea.

  130. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:10 am

    Ba’al Zevul

    I could not care less for UK priorities on this matter. What I care is that Russian chauvinism is on rise threatening majority of neighbouring smaller nations and there is nothing to stop it.

  131. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:14 am

    Uzbek in the UK

    Yes, I did write that (I don’t know whether it got deleted or whether someone gave the wrong reference in their “response”.

    Actually, it was a little tongue in cheek, but the truth is that the Russian minorities in the Baltic states – as you say, mostly imported post-1945 – have done nothing but create trouble since independence and represent an unwelcome fifth column as well as a possible pretext for Russia to flex its muscles there some time in the future.

    *****************

    I think you’ve understood where most of the regulars on this blog – the ones I call the “Eminences” – are coming from. But not a man jack of them would exchange life in the UK (or wherever they post from) with life in one of the countries they appear to feel such affection and sympathy for.

  132. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:26 am

    Here’s a typical anti-Russian piece, aimed at the hapless Balts, who appear to be cowering insufficiently for the author’s taste –

    http://news.err.ee/v/politics/6bf754c3-1d59-4958-b494-3233ed97aebd

    Note (1): Piontkovsky is strongly anti-Putin
    Note (2): Piontkovsky is a Visting Fellow of the Hudson Institute –

    http://www.hudson.org/experts/324-andrei-a-piontkovsky

    Note (3) The Hudson Institute’s president and CEO is one Kenneth Weinstein.

    Who also “serves by presidential appointment and Senate confirmation as a member of the Broadcasting Board of Governors, the oversight body for U.S. government civilian international media, including such networks as the Voice of America, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Radio Free Asia and Middle East Broadcasting.” That’s frightening.

    http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/weinstein_kenneth

    Weinstein contributed to PNAC, and the Hudson’s advisors and associates include Scooter Libby, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle and Meyrav Wurmser.

    Only a little research was needed to establish that the neocons are still contributing to global crises.

  133. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:28 am

    Habbabkuk

    Whereas I have little sympathy for your sentiments, there are certain moral limits. Russians like every other minority wherever they live must be protected by the same laws which protects others. Their property must also be protected. The worst what could happen is Baltic chauvinism in response to Russian chauvinism. Russian in Baltic states must feel themselves better off there than they would be in Russia, more freedom, better legislation, better economy etc. Then there will be little incentive for them to demand Crimean scenario. Russian on the return must drop their Russian chauvinism which (in most cases) exists in Baltic states in response to right wind nationalism.

  134. The war drums are beating less today as I guess the West are breathing in and accepting yet another defeat.
    I do not quite understand why they thought they could get away with it and Russia would accept this phoney coup…. So Ukraine gets chopped up,the parts that the gas reaches will be fine and the rest will be worse off than before the… Debt still there,gas still a problem, IMF chopping their utilities and assets up in the great Kiev fire sale.
    I dont see any winners apart from Putin. Obama and Kerry are beginning to look like they don’t believe their teleprompters anymore, and Hague looks like the dummie that lost his ventriloquist.
    To get back to the table, the agreement made with Yanukowitsch has to be discussed,without Yanukowitsch I s’pose.This would mean that the bit that NATO has won would vote.That’s the last thing the West wants is the people to decide.Far better they stick with their paid stooges.C’mon Yatz!

  135. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:30 am

    Ba’al Zevul

    Are putin and his insiders neocons too? Karimov? CCP (Communist Party of China)?

    Any ideas?

  136. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:35 am

    DoNNyDarKo

    What was that agreement again? Was it something similar to that of Catherina the Great of Russia had with Austrians with regards to Poland? And look what happened to Poland after that.

  137. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:37 am

    ‘I could not care less for UK priorities on this matter.’

    I was being facetious. I don’t imagine you do, and nor would I expect you to.

    ‘What I care is that Russian chauvinism is on rise threatening majority of neighbouring smaller nations and there is nothing to stop it.’

    Understood. And you have experience of that. The cartoon is less about the UK in particular than the West’s general tendency to calculate what will please its power groups – all of them economic. IOW we cannot exert economic leverage over Russia, because we are thinking exclusively of the short-term interests of our moneymakers. Proper sanctions would make Putin think again. And leave the small countries as they were, waiting for the next incursion by Russia.

  138. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:41 am

    Ba’al Zevul

    You are indeed right. Cold War methods will fail this time. Russia nowadays is part of capitalist world (although not part of free market). It makes profit and could cause losses if approached Cold War alike.

  139. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:43 am

    Uzbek –
    Is Putin a neocon? Great question! Would make a long discussion, though.

    I don’t see a great conceptual difference between someone who is gung-ho for Russian hegemony, and someone who is gung-ho for American hegemony, and I don’t see a moral difference based on who you are prepared to kill to achieve those ends. In the sense of nuclear physics ( think electron and positron with equal mass but opposite charge ) maybe while Perle is a neocon, Putin is an antineocon. I don”t like either of them much.

  140. “It’s not just that western aggression and lawless killing is on another scale entirely from anything Russia appears to have contemplated, let alone carried out – removing any credible basis for the US and its allies to rail against Russian transgressions. But the western powers have also played a central role in creating the Ukraine crisis in the first place.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/clash-crimea-western-expansion-ukraine-fascists

    Pity Craig felt the need to rush & make several Posts, as well as to compare Iraq, Libya, Syria etc, to a yet to materialised, and maybe never to be, Ukrainian “invasion”;

    Strange that Craig was so very skeptical about their being Neo-Nazis in government in Kiev, and strange that he so very reluctant to accept the possibilty of third party snipers with the demonstrators.

    Craig, have you apologised to Mary iro;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/putin-and-international-law/comment-page-2/#comment-443770

  141. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 11:54 am

    Craig Murray:
    “The principle of self-determination should be the overriding consideration, and the Crimean Parliament’s decision to hold a referendum on union with Russia is something which always needed to be part of a solution.”

    I agree with you but the US/EU/UK do not and it is unlikely that they will recognise the results of a referendum no matter how fair it is.

    After talks with EU heads of state Arseniy Yatsenuk has ruled out separation:

    “Acting Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk immediately charged that the move was “totally illegitimate”. “Crimea,” he insisted, “is and will be an integral part of Ukraine and we urge the Russian government not to support those who advocate separatism.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-hopes-for-united-nation-fade-as-crimeas-mps-vote-to-take-situation-to-new-level-9173038.html

  142. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:01 pm

    Ba’al Zevul

    “maybe while Perle is a neocon, Putin is an antineocon. I don”t like either of them much.”

    Which brings us down to the realist dimension. Was not it Machiavelli who said something like everything is acceptable to reach a goal. 500 years have passed but still pretty much relevant.

  143. Thanks Karel. I too think it is sabre-rattling. But it also shows the grip that the US has over the UK.

  144. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:13 pm

    It’s called realpolitik, isn’t it, Uzbek?

    Here’s a realpolitician on the subject. I realise Kissinger isn’t an object of admiration to some here, but he has a good record in correctly analysing international issues.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

    He’s always distanced himself from the characteristically Israel-First neocon mob, too.

  145. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:13 pm

    Kempe
    7 Mar, 2014 – 4:37 am

    “US versus Russia…”

    “Not one word of which justifies Putin’s aggression.”

    That is true but pointing out the hypocrisy of the US puts things in context.

    Putin’s intervention may not be justified but it is understandable.

  146. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:16 pm

    Macky

    Funny enough but looking into current situation in Ukraine with an eyes of leftie westerner one misses completely the fact of ongoing Russian hegemony. While Britain and US had to in fact invade Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya for regime change, Russia does not have to go all the way through. Its muscle flexing on the border or annexation of the part of the country is enough to change power balance within one hegemonised country.

    This is sort of hegemony that US could only dream of.

  147. Another incident unreported about the killing of 5 Afghanistan soldiers and wounding of others in an ‘unfortunate accident’ by the NATO led ISAF forces.

    http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/07/nato-air-raid-kills-five-afghan-army-soldiers/

  148. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:27 pm

    Buggalugs contributes to the discussion –

    ‘Only page 1, and the Jooos are here already!’

    Thanks for pointing it out. If a little antisemitic of you. Naturally someone with Israeli citizenship is Jewish. Sorry not to respond before, but you’re not that important.

  149. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:29 pm

    Ba’al Zevul

    Not fan of Kissinger generally, but this piece is balanced indeed. Fair enough, realist approach seems to be best suited in this situation. But then again, how realists explain sovereignty of one entity with prevailing military power of another entity within that former entity?

  150. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:36 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    7 Mar, 2014 – 11:05 am

    “Haven’t you got the Baltic states mixed up with Crimea?”

    No, do your research Habbabkuk.

  151. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:39 pm

    ESLO

    Someone great said once that the first victim of war is truth.

  152. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:47 pm

    John Goss

    Thank you for bring this horrific accident to our attention.

    Soon ISAF will leave and Afghans will be free to kill each other again (without ISAF). With China getting into bed with Pakistan and Russia/China increasing their influence in Central Asia I anticipate a lot of troubles coming from the south.

    As western lefties are quick to point oppression of Islam in Middle East, the fact is that it is most oppressed in Central Asia, China and Russia. But why would western lefties give a sh..t about this fact as it is nothing to do with either Israel or US?

  153. Ba’al Zevul (Let’s Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix)) 7 Mar, 2014 – 12:27 pm

    The mention of Jews is important in this issue and I should like to hear contributions from Jewish comment-makers about there concern for the Jewish population of the Ukraine. Some people play a Jewish card on this blog. I am not one of them. One of my Facebook friends is a Jewish anti-Zionist site. Many Jewish people do not agree with the illegal mafia government that has set itself up with the help of US and European allies.

    http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Ukrainian-Jews-split-on-dangers-of-protest-movement-333907

    I am as concerned for this minority in the Ukraine as much as I am for the Tatars and other minorities in Crimea.

  154. “Putin’s intervention may not be justified but it is understandable.”

    Note how the justification bit is qualified. Good to see this old chestnut being trotted out again – previously used for 9/11, bus bombs etc.

    Lots of evil doing e.g. rape, violence, theft is often perfectly understandable that is not a reason for supporting it or not attributing blame to the perpetrator.

  155. ‘their concern’

  156. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:50 pm

    One small correction. Oppression of Islam in my last post addressed to John Goss should be read as oppression of Muslims. As it is in its root not the same thing.

  157. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:51 pm

    I think realists deal with what’s actually there rather than why, Uzbek. :-)

  158. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:53 pm

    John Goss

    One small correction. Not some people but MANY people if not (MAJORITY of people) on this blog tend to play Jewish (or better describe anti-Semitic) card.

    You are not one of them of course. I have not noticed this tendency on your posting.

  159. @Uzbek in the UK, Try imaging looking through the dead eyes of over one million dead Iraqis, and reflecting if your power balancing muscle flexing comparison means anything to them, apart from a mocking insult.

  160. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 12:57 pm

    Ba’al Zevul

    My question is HOW? Realists could not emphasise enough importance of sovereignty and sovereign states and base all their hypothesis on this. But how would they explain sovereignty of Ukraine with Russian Black Sea Navy in Crimea (subject to Crimea being part of Ukraine)?

  161. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:00 pm

    Macky

    Try imaging looking through the dead eyes of over 4 million dead Ukrainians (including 400.000 Crimea Tatars), and reflecting if your western leftie philosophy means anything to them but insult.

  162. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:04 pm

    Ba’al Zevul (Let’s Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))
    7 Mar, 2014 – 12:27 pm

    “Naturally someone with Israeli citizenship is Jewish.”

    Just to clarify Ba’al Zevul, about 20% of Israeli’s are non-Jews, mostly Arabs.

  163. Uzbek in the UK; “But why would western lefties give a sh..t about this fact as it is nothing to do with either Israel or US?

    I see you subscribe to that handy but deluded self-hating trope; don’t worry you seem to be in good company, including that of the Blog owner himself.

  164. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:05 pm

    As I posted elsewhere, John, one of the self-appointed troika running Ukraine, Tyahnybok, makes Nick Griffin look like George Bernard Shaw, and his party is about as antisemitic as it gets. It doesn’t stop the Zionists – like Nulands – cosying up to him. But I don’t think Ukrainian Jews will be feeling optimistic about a future involving him.

    Charming photo – gorilla on left is Tyahnybok, guy behind her is Kltschko, of whom she disapproves as a component of her rearrangement of the ‘government’

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72831000/jpg/_72831422_g2drv3ev.jpg

    Meanwhile, nearly everybody missed Netanyahu winding up AIPAC and any other American who would listen on the subject of Iran’s (nonexistent) nuglear missles while the world’s attention was elsewhere –

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-netanyahu-los-angeles-20140306,0,6664064.story

    Only page 1, and here come the Nazis again…

  165. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:06 pm

    Just to clarify Ba’al Zevul, about 20% of Israeli’s are non-Jews, mostly Arabs.

    Point taken, but how many of them are oligarchs?

  166. Uzbek in the UK; “Try imaging looking through the dead eyes of over 4 million dead Ukrainians (including 400.000 Crimea Tatars), and reflecting if your western leftie philosophy means anything to them but insult.”

    Funny, I don’t remember Putin doing any of that !

  167. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:09 pm

    But how would they explain sovereignty of Ukraine with Russian Black Sea Navy in Crimea (subject to Crimea being part of Ukraine)?

    Suggest you check this to see the evolutionary process at work here, Uzbek. It’s complicated. And beyond me, personally.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

  168. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:15 pm

    Macky

    Many times I disagreed (and no doubt will have many more disagreements) with Mr Murray, but I never questioned his integrity. Something that we (me and Mr Murray) came across together (and I cannot talk this in more details) convinced me that his integrity is unquestionable. Not many of YOU will give up 60+K job with free everything (including servants) plus huge pension for rights of some ‘dirty’ people whose existence you would not known before you met them.

    You can insult me within limits (I count this as honour being insulted by bigoted western leftie), but if you question Mr Murray’s integrity I advise you to look inside your empty bigoted head again.

    Nonsense people.

  169. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:17 pm

    Macky

    “Funny, I don’t remember Putin doing any of that !”

    But cause he serves did that and many more (in terms of peoples deaths). KGB (his holly home) was at the forefront of the deaths.

  170. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:22 pm

    Here’s another discussion point. Given that none of this would be happening if several parties did not see a big fat financial profit in being awkward, why not make it commercial?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26452298

    ‘If that lease (2010, Sebastopol and other Crimean Russian bases -BZ) was viewed by the world as ethically tolerable, how big a leap would it be to negotiate a lease on all Crimean territory?’

    Q. Why not?
    A. Because Radio Four listeners would have to endure hours of disjointed wittering by Robert Peston – the author – on the subject.

  171. “Some people play a Jewish card on this blog. I am not one of them.”

    You really need to look at yourself in the mirror. You talk as though anti-semitism is just a recent phenomenom in the Ukraine and of course Yanukovych was struggling valiantly to deal with it before his departure – and perhaps we might also consider what steps Mr Putin has taken to deal with anti- Semitism in Russia before you place so much faith in him to deal with the Ukrainian version.

  172. Now Obama is going to tighten the sanctions on Russia. Guess even Putin will lose his exception on a visa to travel to the USA, and using his bank deposits there.

    The Western assault on Ukraine – what it hoped to make into a NATO member by the coup in Kiev just next door to Russia – has completely backfired, with Crimea joining Russia, and the rest of Ukraine facing a complete meltdown.

    Why don’t these Western loons just stick to trying to build a workable bridge to Russia, and repair their own struggling countries?

  173. Uzbek

    I must object Macky is not a lefty – the policies of Mr Putin and the regimes he supports have nothing whatsoever to do with Liberty, Fraternity and Equality.

    The rest of what you say is of course absolutely spot on.

  174. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:33 pm

    Trowbridge H. Ford

    “Why don’t these Western loons just stick to trying to build a workable bridge to Russia, and repair their own struggling countries?”

    I see all of you decided not to engage in Hitler vs Putin comparison poll I initiated. Well, as with former there is a limit on what could be sacrificed in order to please predatorily appetite. What you suggest giving up to Putin? Crime (like Sudetes to Hitler)? What next? Baltic states? Poland?

    Workable bridges could be of different quality? Like between US and EU and like between US and USSR. Which one are you suggesting to build with Russia?

  175. Uzbek in the UK; “but if you question Mr Murray’s integrity I advise you to look inside your empty bigoted head again”

    Seems as if your English comprehension skills are letting you down again, times two in one senetence. I would advise that if you don’t agree with my point, simply address & explain why, alas that assumes you already have the basic comprehension skills, but don’t feel insulted, as I know that English is not your Mother Tongue.

  176. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:37 pm

    ESLO

    Well then. How would you describe Macky?

  177. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:41 pm

    Macky

    People could have opinion different from yours. It is not reason to question their integrity. Their expertise perhaps, but not integrity.

    I feel that your address towards Mr Murray was insulting. He did not deserve this after all he has done, not at least in Uzbekistan.

  178. Uzbek in the UK; “But cause he serves did that and many more (in terms of peoples deaths). KGB (his holly home) was at the forefront of the deaths.”

    Not sure what “cause” you are referring to; and what has his ex-KGB role got to do with his current concerns & considerations as President of Russia ?

  179. Just love Western media’s coverage of the President’s residence in Kiev where it makes out that it was just built by Yanukovych’s corruption.

    Was there no residence before he became President, and the state provided no funds for its construction?

    Realize that the Mariyinsky Palace from the Czar’s days has been made into a museum on the river, but was nothing done to replace it by subsequent regimes?

  180. ESLO, I think your understanding of anti-semitism is wrong. I have mentioned on this blog that Semites are not just Jewish people but include many nationalities. I used the word Jewish to be more precise. I genuinely asked for a Jewish opinion not a lecture on how Yakunovich treated Jewish minorities. But if you know the answer to this query, bearing in mind the different concerns of different Jewish factions in the Ukraine, and you can provide links I should be happy to read them.

  181. Uzbek in the UK; “People could have opinion different from yours. It is not reason to question their integrity”

    First I did not, secondly I disagree, because if somebody’y POV is irrational, ie they cannot convince others of it with clear logic, then some other factor is causing them to hold that POV, be it insanity, money, perjudice etc, etc,

  182. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:50 pm

    Putin’s not an antisemite. Ha’aretz agrees.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/putin-not-so-much-pro-jewish-as-free-from-anti-semitism-1.240896

    The nationalist Svoboda party has much more form in this respect.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

  183. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 1:54 pm

    ESLO
    7 Mar, 2014 – 12:48 pm

    “Putin’s intervention may not be justified but it is understandable.”

    “Note how the justification bit is qualified. Good to see this old chestnut being trotted out again – previously used for 9/11, bus bombs etc.”

    ESLO, I’ll un-qualify my sentence: Putin’s intervention is not justified but it is understandable. [given the situation].

    You say: “Lots of evil doing e.g. rape, violence, theft is often perfectly understandable that is not a reason for supporting it or not attributing blame to the perpetrator.”

    Because Putin’s actions in Crimea are understandable does not mean I support him.

    Why have you included rape in your above sentence? Such a crime is neither justifiable nor understandable.

    Unless you are a pacifist, violence (under certain circumstances) can be both justified and understandable.

    However, some actions which are not justifiable can nevertheless be understood; a hungry homeless person stealing food for example.

    Try:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logic-Dummies-Mark-Zegarelli/dp/0471799416/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394200513&sr=1-1&keywords=logic+for+dummies

  184. I see Uzbek in the UK that you are still interested in making comparisons between Hitler and Putin.

    The idea is so loony that even current Western scholars do not make any mention of the possibilities with Hitler.

    For example, you should look at what Lilia Shevtsova has to say about Putin in Russia:: Lost in Transition – what shows the bridges I think are necessary for bridging the gaps between Russia and the EU and the USA.

    They are still treating Russia as if it might become again the USSR – what is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  185. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:08 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    7 Mar, 2014 – 12:53 pm

    “One small correction. Not some people but MANY people if not (MAJORITY of people) on this blog tend to play Jewish (or better describe anti-Semitic) card.”

    Not true Uzbek.

    I think you should back that up with examples of the posts you think are anti-Semitic. Name and shame!

  186. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:08 pm

    ‘Why don’t these Western loons just stick to trying to build a workable bridge to Russia, and repair their own struggling countries?’

    I’ll try my own answer. Because the loons in charge are deeply obligated to global capitalism for their being in charge, and have subordinated national interests to the interests of banks and hedge funds. They don’t think about workable bridges any more. They want to fill the river with concrete shopping malls. And they’d like to teach the world to sing…

    ….Consumerism. It’s the “real” thing.

  187. Given John Goss is now taking an interest in all things Jewish in the Ukraine perhaps he might wish to consider the views of its Chief Rabbi.

    http://www.jta.org/2014/03/03/news-opinion/world/ukraine-chief-rabbi-accuses-russians-of-staging-anti-semitic-provocations

  188. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:14 pm

    Macky

    “Not sure what “cause” you are referring to; and what has his ex-KGB role got to do with his current concerns & considerations as President of Russia ?”

    Why do not you read about Russian/Soviet history little before coming to this blog with your opinions? It would have made you less prejudice (thank you for this word by the way).

    The CAUSE is Russian chauvinism. It has had its peaks and downs but has been persistent (and catastrophic for smaller ethnoses). Started I would say with Ivan the terrible, rolled over towards Europe by Peter the Great, followed by Catherine the Great (although she was German), all the way up to Nicholas I, through Alexander II and III and Nicholas II. Paused during Lenin and peaked again during Stalin (although he was Georgian).

    Now on ex KGB. If only you lived in USSR or have any knowledge of soviet history you would have known that there are no ex KGB. Have you heard of Yurii Andropov? Chief of KGB for almost 20 years before becoming general secretary of USSR. His short era as general secretary was called by soviet people KGBzation. And mind you it was in soviet times when soviet people have not experienced anything liberal before Andropov became general secretary, so Andropov’s rule was compared to Brezhnevshina. To reach high ranks within KGB one needs to be brainwashed to the point that nothing they thought before is true if it contradicts to something they have been tough by KGB. It is much worse in a sense then Vatican hierarchy.

  189. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:16 pm

    Doug Scorgie

    Will do. Will name and shame from now on.

  190. ESLO. Yes I’ve had a read. It is a fairly balanced article but the Chief Rabbi’s views are speculative and aimed at creating a misleading idea about what is happening.

    “Things may be done by Russians dressing up as Ukrainian nationalists,” he said, adding that it’s “the same way the Nazis did when they wanted to go into Austria and created provocations.”

    May be done? Come on ELSO. You’re intelligent. Surely you don’t rest your analysis on speculation like this. Do you?

  191. Putin Monsterhitlerpsycho

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:19 pm

    Again, as with Syria, Putin calmly reads the law to NATO as he gently outmaneuvers and deters them.

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article182486.html

    It’s fun to watch the vestiges of US influence trickle down Uncle Sam’s palsied leg.

  192. doug scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:25 pm

    ESLO
    7 Mar, 2014 – 1:29 pm

    “I must object Macky is not a lefty – the policies of Mr Putin and the regimes he supports have nothing whatsoever to do with Liberty, Fraternity and Equality.”

    So do you support Liberty, Fraternity and Equality ESLO?

  193. So do you support Liberty, Fraternity and Equality ESLO?

    Yes

  194. Putin Monsterhitlerpsycho

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:33 pm

    Liberty, Fraternity and Equality is a cheap old discredited slogan.

    Question is, do you support this? Do you know even what it says?

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/UniversalHumanRightsInstruments.aspx

  195. Uzbek in the UK

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:45 pm

    “Liberty, Fraternity and Equality is a cheap old discredited slogan”

    Not to mention how many people have been killed for these 3 words, not at least in France and in Russian empire.

  196. Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    7 Mar, 2014 - 2:45 pm

    Eslo – And do you agree with (Liberty, Fraternity, Equality) Robespierre’s suggestion that “Terror is nothing else than justice, prompt, severe, inflexible” while guillotining 17,000 of his own people?

    Yes to your response. He said it himself:

    “It has been said that terror was the mainspring of despotic government. Does your government, then, resemble a despotism? Yes, as the sword which glitters in the hands of liberty’s heroes resembles the one with which tyranny’s lackeys are armed. Let the despot govern his brutalized subjects by terror; he is right to do this, as a despot. Subdue liberty’s enemies by terror, and you will be right, as founders of the Republic.”

    IOW, it’s all right if I do it.

    I know a guy in Syria who’d like your CV, ESLO….

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