Deconstructing Putin

by craig on March 19, 2014 1:25 pm in Uncategorized

I listened live to Putin’s speech yesterday with great interest.  Here is my own analysis, for what it is worth.

Putin was strongest in his accusations of western hypocrisy.  His ironic welcoming of the West having suddenly discovered the concept of international law was very well done.  His analysis of the might is right approach the West had previously adopted, and their contempt of the UN over Iraq and Afghanistan, was spot on. Putin also was absolutely right in describing the Kosovo situation as “highly analogous” to the situation in Crimea. That is indeed true, and attempts by the West – including the Guardian - to argue the cases are different are pathetic exercises in special pleading.

The problem is that Putin blithely ignored the enormous logical inconsistency in his argument.  He stated that the Crimean and Kosovo cases were highly analogous, but then used that to justify Russia’s action in Crimea, despite the fact that Russia has always maintained the NATO Kosovo intervention was illegal(and still refuses to recognize Kosovo).  In fact of course Russia was right over Kosovo, and thus is wrong over Crimea.

I was very interested that Putin made distinct reference to the appalling crimes against the Tartars in the 1930′s, but also to the terrible suffering of Ukrainians in that period.  His references were not detailed but their meaning was clear.  I was surprised because under Putin’s rule there has been a great deal of rehabilitation of Stalin.  Archives that were opened under glasnost have frozen over again, and history in Russian schools now portrays Stalin’s foreign policy achievement much more than his crimes (and it is now again  possible to complete your Russian school education with no knowledge the Stalin-Hitler pact ever happened).  So this was both surprising and positive.  Designed to be positive was his assurance that Crimea will be trilingual.  We will see what happens; Putin’s Russia is in fact not tolerant of its ethnic populations in majority Russian areas, and in fact contains a great many more far right thugs than Ukraine -  probably about the same  percentage of the population.

The 97% referendum figure is simply unbelievable to any reasonable person and is straight out of the Soviet playbook – it was strange to see Putin going in and out of modern media friendly mode and his audience, with their Soviet en brosse haircuts and synchronized clapping – obviously liked the Soviet bits best.

The attempt to downplay Russia’s diplomatic isolation was also a bit strange.  He thanked China, though China had very pointedly failed to support Russian in the Security Council.  When you are forced to thank people for abstaining, you are not in a strong position diplomatically.  He also thanked India, which is peculiar, because the Indian PM yesterday put out a press release saying Putin had called him, but the had urged Putin to engage diplomatically with the interim government in Kiev, which certainly would not be welcome to Putin.  I concluded that Putin was merely trying to tell his domestic audience Russia has support, even when it does not.

But what I find really strange is that the parts of the speech I found most interesting have not drawn any media comment I can see.  Putin plainly said that in his discussions with Kuchma on the boundaries of Ukraine after the collapse of the Soviet Union, they hadn’t wanted to open any dispute with what they expected to be a friendly neighbor, and that therefore the boundaries of Ukraine had never been finally demarcated.  He said twice the boundaries had not been demarcated.  That seemed to indicate a very general threat to Eastern Ukraine. He also spoke of the common heritage of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine in a way that indicated that he did not accept that Ukraine might choose a political future away from Russia.

Secondly, he said that on the day the Soviet Union broke up, Russians in many places had “woken up to find themselves in a foreign country.” Again from the context in which he said it, this referred not just to Crimea, and not just even to the rest of Ukraine, but to Russian nationals all over the Former Soviet Union.  I would be worrying a lot about this part of the speech if I was Kazakh, to give just one example.  Putin seemed to be outlining a clear agenda to bring Russian speaking areas of CIS countries back in to Mother Russia – indeed, I see no other possible interpretation of his actions in Georgia and Ukraine.

I think that we should start listening much more carefully to what he says. I also think that the weakness of the EU’s response to events gives Putin a very dangerous encouragement to pursue further aggrandizement.  I posted a few days ago:

The EU I expect to do nothing.  Sanctions will target a few individuals who are not too close to Putin and don’t keep too many of their interests in the West.  I don’t think Alisher Usmanov and Roman Abramovic need lose too much sleep, that Harrods need worry or that we will see any flats seized at One Hyde Park.  (It is among my dearest wishes one day to see One Hyde Park given out for council housing.)  Neither do I expect to see the United States do anything effective; its levers are limited.

The truth is of course that the global political elite are in the pockets of the global financial elite, and while ordinary Russians are still desperately poor, the money the oligarchs rip out of Russia’s backward commodity exporting economy is parceled around the world financial system in ways that make it impossible for the western political classes to do anything.  Whose funds would the hedge fund managers look after?  Whose yacht could Mandelson and Osborne holiday on?

Personally I should like to see a complete financial freeze on the entire Russian oligarchy.  The knock on effects would only hurt a few bankers, and city types and those who depend on them (cocaine dealers, lap dancers, Porsche dealers, illegal domestic servants).  Sadly we shan’t see anything happen. They won’t let Eton go bust.

 

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644 Comments

  1. If I can make a sort of footnote through a comment, Putin did speak as though he personally had been involved in negotiating Ukrainian independence with Kuchma, which surprised me as I think he was still at the KGB then?

  2. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 1:53 pm

    Mr Murray,

    Yet I believe that there is a significant substantial difference between Kosovo and Crimea. There was no ethnic cleansing or even any sort of danger to Russians in Crimea. Completely opposite to Kosovars. I will go even further and claim that if Milochevich and Radich were still in power in Yugoslavia today, it would be highly likely that NATO did nothing against them. Yes, Kosovo might not turned out to be heaven on earth after split from Serbia but the fact is that concluding genocidal behaviour of Serbs against Kosovar it would be highly unlikely that latter would be willing to be ruled by former, And yet again, nothing like this happened in Crimea. In fact it was Ukrainians who fully experienced genocide from Russian in form of Holodomor and throughout previous 600 years.

    I am not trying to be apologetic to the actions of NATO in Yugoslavia, for me this Yugoslavia like many other places around the world (not at least Rwanda) is yet another confirmation of limitations of International Law. The whole system is based on realist approach where sovereign states are primarily and everything else is secondary.

    For me Crimea is an example of Putin’s mastery in misinterpreting facts and feeding west hating Russian public (applies to majority) ethical and legal grounds for Crimean Anschluss.

    Worse, I fear yet to come. Weak response from the west gave Putin card blanche for even more adventures in the former soviet space. And if left unanswered, who knows one day Russia might complete its aim to be dominant power in Europe. Mad western lefties will of course welcome such great opportunity.

  3. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 1:59 pm

    Mr Murray,

    One small remark. Ukraine became independent under president Leonid Kravchuk and not Leonid Kuchma. Kuchma becamse president in 1994. The first transition of power from one to another in post soviet space (excluding Baltics).

  4. I see Putin conceding influence to NATO moving into Ucraine proper. Russia has a history of protecting it’s borders (containment, which is where Stalin comes in again).

  5. ” Putin seemed to be outlining a clear agenda to bring Russian speaking areas of CIS countries back in to Mother Russia – indeed, I see no other possible interpretation of his actions in Georgia and Ukraine.”

    It’ll be interesting if CIS countries and the Baltic states decide it means Putin would like Russian-speakers back in Mother Rueeia. Given Russia’s declining population it could even be what he meant!

  6. Uzbek

    yes he must have said Kravchuk, I guess – was taking notes furiously so it just looks like K-slur.

  7. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 2:16 pm

    Hector

    I doubt this a lot. There are at least 20 million Russian speaking outside of Russia and within former USSR. It takes Russian authorities ages (at least 2 years) to get paperwork approved for Russians from Central Asia for them to move and settle in Russia. Putin is quick to issue Russian citizenship only in cases when he wants to grab piece of land with new Russian citizens.

  8. Strange that Putin claims Ukraine’s borders were never finally demarcated. In 1994 Russia (Along with the US and UK) signed an agreement promising to respect Ukraine’s territorial independence in return for Ukraine giving up it’s share of the Soviet nuclear arsenal (1,900 warheads). How could they have done that if they didn’t know where the boundaries of that territory were?

  9. Here’s the full official English transcript. I’ve added headings to aid with citation navigation and general readability. Otherwise it is verbatim from the Kremlin.

    Note also the videos. Anyone with any doubt about Putin’s popularity – of a magnitude that our western mediocrities can only dream of – needs to watch them.

    I found the speech particularly noteworthy for its calm factual analysis of the contempt with which the US-NATO has behaved towards Russia ever since the dissolution of the USSR. Russia has clearly had enough of it.

    Craig is no doubt correct about Russian inconsistency over Kosovo, but only in still refusing to recognise it. If he is implying that both the Kosovo and Crimea secessions are illegal under the amendment to International law that UN acceptance of the Kosovo secession confirms, then he needs to study the matter further. Putin does a creditable job of explaining it in his speech.

  10. Reminds me of what Basil was thinking about Hitler in that episode of Ponty Pyithon where he kept telling himself not to mention the war to that German visitor, only to keep doing so.

  11. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 2:30 pm

    Russians now claim that none of the states that guaranteed Ukrainian territorial integrity have approved Budapest memorandum via their parliamnent. Basically what Putin claims that the memorandum is not even worse a paper it was signed on. It is becoming more and more common for Russian authorities to disrespect the laws it signed on to adhire to. President was of course put by US/UK invasion to Iraq, but as many western lefties claim, putin is a good guy. Who accidently behaves more like bad guys.

  12. Ba'al Zevul (Хождение в народ!)

    19 Mar, 2014 - 2:35 pm

    Thanks for the synopsis and interpretation. Question is, is it more in Britain’s interest to oppose or to go along with this reversion to what is, after all, traditional rule in Russia, brutal as it often is? We’re back in the 18/19th century, aren’t we – with the addition of MAD? I suspect that sometime in the next decade we’re going to have to abandon our humanitarian scruples and pretensions to democratic values and deal realistically with the new Peter the Great – as I am sure he sees himself, absolute power having corrupted him absolutely. Napoleon and Hitler discovered the hard way what ‘dealing realistically’ with Russia didn’t mean…

    Pragmatism, boys. We don’t have any moral high ground left.

  13. Sorry, it was in Fawlty Towers.

  14. Craig; BRICS is why Putin is careful with China/India rhetoric.

  15. “I also think that the weakness of the EU’s response to events gives Putin a very dangerous encouragement to pursue further aggrandizement.”

    I’m struggling to buy this. I agree the EU response is on the face of it weak, but I don’t see that this would encourage Putin to claw back more of the old USSR.

    For me, ever since Yanukovich was removed from office, Russia has been scrambling to make the best of a bad situation. I don’t for a moment believe this is how Putin wants to restore prestige. Gaining Crimea, strategically important though it is, is hardly a great victory for Mother Russia. Most of Ukraine, until recently a client state of Moscow, is now lost. It’ll be part of the EU in a few years.

    So I don’t see how Putin is genuinely celebrating. If this is the pattern of the former USSR, where those countries fracture and large parts of which turn their back on Moscow, this is no aggrandizement strategy, it’s a diminuition of influence.

    Goodness knows the EU has its problems, but if the new Ukraine turns into another enlargement success story, I know who I call this win for.

  16. The horrid Siberian isolation of it all.

    You’re a bit behind the curve, Craig.

    “India not to support Western sanctions against Russia”

    “With Russia facing sanctions from the United States and some other countries after it annexed Crimea from Ukraine, India on Wednesday made it clear that it will not support any “unilateral measures” against Russian government.”

    http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/india-not-to-support-western-sanctions-against-russia/article5805479.ece?homepage=true

    And that Chinese abstention.

    Then the West’s voodoo economy.

  17. let me be the first to put my name down for a council flat at One Hyde Park.

  18. One question has been bothering me; If Yanukovich was Putin’s puppet, why was he pushing for the EU, and the IMF austerity?

  19. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:19 pm

    Hector

    “It’ll be interesting if CIS countries and the Baltic states decide it means Putin would like Russian-speakers back in Mother Rueeia. Given Russia’s declining population it could even be what he meant!”
    ______________________

    You might recall that a few threads ago I suggested that it might be a good if the Russians in the Baltic states were to leave for Russia.

    They could be compensated adequately.

    In theory Russia shouldn’t mind and could be helpful on a practical sense – after all, they have form on the matter of displacing populations (both within the USSR, including Ukraine, by the way) and as regards border states (East Prussia and Poland).

    With this, they wouldn’t have to display their touching concern for Russians outside the state borders any longer. And no longer have a pretext for futue interference in neighbouring independent states.

  20. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:21 pm

    I think that the best possible way to deal with Russia is diplomatic and economic. Russia depends on the west more that it wants to accept. Russia needs modernisation of its technology and only west could provide it. Russia needs to have stable marker for its gas and oil and only west could provide it. In long term there are some in Russia (even amongst the most keen Euroasianists) who thinks that Russia’s main adversary is China and not the west. And they realise that Russia needs western alliance in order to resist Chinese hegemony in future. It is already evident in Central Asia that China is overtaking Russia as elder brother. Chinese investments in Central Asia are growing while Russia is only concentrated in status quo (making sure that energy is pumped through Russia). However; even this status quo is becoming more and more difficult to enforce. There are large projects between Central Asian republics to build pipeline to export energy to China bypassing Russia. China is actually proving to be more resilient than EU in diversifying its energy supplies. It is dealing with central asia directly and as investments will grow and pipeline finished China for sure will ensure that Russians are not threaten their energy supply from the region. In fact 4 years ago in the aftermath of Russian intervention to Georgia China signed treaty with central Asian republics (within SCO) that it will guarantee their territorial integrity and provide security guarantees in case of security threat. Russia signed up for this treaty too. It is certain that in case of Russian uniterial action in central asia (similar to Georgia/Ukraine) China will be more forceful than EU/US in enforcing its guarantees, especially considering threat to its energy supplies.

    On the other hand Russia also realise that relying on China as its only energy market is weak and therefore its dependence on Europe as major market is important in Russian foreign policy strategy.

    If west enforces its economic sanctions and diplomatic isolation (at least with western powers) then it will be seriously damaging to Russia in medium and long terms and for sure it will be sufficient to bring Russian KGB establishment back to the negotiating table.

  21. Habby, on Russia

    “after all, they have form on the matter of displacing populations”

    I truly believe you say these things with no sense of irony at all.

  22. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:27 pm

    Ed

    Good post there (thank you), which provides more backup for Craig’s thoughts as expressed in the “Putin’s Victorious Defeat” thread.

    And before the usual Eminences start huffin’ and puffin’, I hope that none of them would deny the right of Ukraine to accede to the EU? If they think it has no sich right, then it would be interesting to hear why.

    (and by accede, I don’t mean next month or next year)

  23. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:30 pm

    Herby

    “Habby, on Russia

    “after all, they have form on the matter of displacing populations”

    I truly believe you say these things with no sense of irony at all.”
    ______________________

    Those population displacements are historical fact, Herby, which even you and your Eminent friends can’t wish away. So irony doesn’t come into it.

    Or are you saying that they didn’t happen?

  24. A bit OT. Who were the snipers? http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-secretive-neo-nazi-military-organization-involved-in-euromaidan-snyper-shootings/5371611

    “The leader of UNA-UNSO, Andriy Shkil, ten years ago became an adviser to Julia Tymoshenko. UNA-UNSO, during the US-instigated 2003-2004 “Orange Revolution”, backed pro-NATO candidate Viktor Yushchenko against his pro-Russian opponent, Yanukovich. UNA-UNSO members provided security for the supporters of Yushchenko and Julia Tymoshenko on Independence Square in Kiev in 2003-4.[4]

    UNA-UNSO is also reported to have close ties to the German National Democratic Party (NDP). [5]

    Ever since the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 the crack-para-military UNA-UNSO members have been behind every revolt against Russian influence. The one connecting thread in their violent campaigns is always anti-Russia. The organization, according to veteran US intelligence sources, is part of a secret NATO “GLADIO” organization, and not a Ukraine nationalist group as portrayed in western media. [6]

    According to these sources, UNA-UNSO have been involved (confirmed officially) in the Lithuanian events in the Winter of 1991, the Soviet Coup d’etat in Summer 1991, the war for the Pridnister Republic 1992, the anti-Moscow Abkhazia War 1993, the Chechen War, the US-organized Kosovo Campaign Against the Serbs, and the August 8 2008 war in Georgia. According to these reports, UNA-UNSO para-military have been involved in every NATO dirty war in the post-cold war period, always fighting on behalf of NATO. “These people are the dangerous mercenaries used all over the world to fight NATO’s dirty war, and to frame Russia because this group pretends to be Russian special forces. THESE ARE THE BAD GUYS, forget about the window dressing nationalists, these are the men behind the sniper rifles,” these sources insist. [7]“

  25. Not even the EU is really on board:

    “”We have done what we said we could do, but, yes, the U.S. is from Mars, we are from Venus,” said Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, who wanted at least four more names on the EU list but was rebuffed by other member states.

    “I would suggest that we are not overly enthusiastic when it comes to introducing sanctions, because we will pay for it.”"

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/eu-in-a-quandary-amid-calls-to-escalate-russia-sanctions/496474.html

    They know that Europe’s future lies east, rather than west.

    I’d say the US is isolated and quite rapidly losing influence.

    The king is certainly lingering on, and no one will say much openly until they’re sure he’s dead. Though I do expect there will be some hastening, behind the scenes.

  26. Irony of course comes into it

    The very power that rules the planet today is a product of the greatest displacement of peoples in all human history.

  27. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:46 pm

    Ed

    You have no idea how putin could go further messing up the situation. Further intervention into east/south of Ukraine is one option. Anschluss of Transdnestr is another (it will have indirect impact on Ukraine but will make it very problematic to get Ukraine into EU). There are some military analysts (Russian of course) who suggest that for Russia to cut of Ukraine and Moldova from Europe (both EU and NATO) Russia must push further for Anschluss of Eastern Ukraine and Transdnestr. There is a risk of course that Russia might get stuck with Ukrainian resistance (military and partisan), but I am sure Putin will stop at nothing to ensure no further advancement of Europeanism towards Russian borders.

    It has taken further 50 years and historical miracle (according to realists) from end of WWII for the eastern European members of EU to get their true freedom. It might take even longer for Ukraine, if at all. Russians when smell weakness of their adversary will not stop at anything. Ask Tatars, Turks, Central Asians, Polish, Chinese, Japanese and even Germans.

  28. Uzzie

    “I am sure Putin will stop at nothing to ensure no further advancement of Europeanism towards Russian borders.”

    Obviously he’ll want to limit the faux NATO neocon version, but his longer term plan would be to accomodate Europe qua Europe.

  29. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:55 pm

    I am saying it again and again. Little reading of Ukrainian and Russian history and modern days politics could benefit some MAD lefties on this blog and give them some sense of knowledge before coming up with stupid questions and build their fake conspiracy theories around Putin’s (ironically) right wing propaganda.

    I have read and heard many times that back in 1930th to 1970th there were very few (in fact very devoted) lefties which (deliberately which not who) praised some of the most effective murderes in human history – Stalin and Mao. Their workers paradise tails have been passed through generations of MAD western lefties, but Holodomor, Gulag, Purges, Great Leap forward and Great Cultural revolution was something that was greatly ignored. Ignorance was blamed, when fact of these mass murders became known, just like in case with Hollacaust.

    Stop being IGNORANT. Stop being MAD.

  30. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:56 pm

    I am not responding to bloody racist mad leftie sh..t.

  31. CIA has been banging on Russia with their self-determination hammer ever since Gates wrangled Carter for them. Never occurred to them that self-determination could also serve to agglomerate the empire that it splintered. I wish Putin would foment some cultural separatism in the civilized enclaves of the USA. By some counts you could break it up into 11 distinct nations. Think how much safer the world would be.

  32. Uzzie

    “Russians when smell weakness of their adversary will not stop at anything.”

    Isn’t that exactly what the Americans have been doing very openly since 1990, and way back to the Munroe doctrine.

    Irony free, as I say.

    There’s little point in terms of understanding to throw accusations of “air-breathing”. We all do it.

    It’s just cheap delusional propaganda. It’s of no value.

  33. Identity politics…..but are they wrong? Shoot the messenger with rhetoric. It doesn’t hurt.

    http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.se/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

  34. Mouth breathers provide nothing but wind.

  35. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 4:10 pm

    Following your logic, every street in large megapolysis (like London, Paris or NYC) could be broken up into separate individual houses/nations. Most streets I have been to have houses with occupants belonging to different cultures. In London house of Hindu’s, right next to house Pakistani, right next to house of Pol, right next to house of White Anglo Saxon etc. So do you suggest to break streets in London into over 200 different separate nations.

  36. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 4:16 pm

    Herbie

    “The very power that rules the planet today is a product of the greatest displacement of peoples in all human history.”
    ______________________-

    Ah, I see. Silly me! You’re drawing a parallel between (European) emigration into the USA and the forced displacement of populations within the USSR by Stalin and his henchmen.

  37. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 4:19 pm

    “They know that Europe’s future lies east, rather than west.”
    __________________

    Good to know you’re privy to their thoughts, Herbie.

  38. truth is of course that the global political elite are in the pockets of the global financial elite

    Ergo the cloak and dagger kabuki unfolding before us all is only a spat between the relevant bunch of greedy over bloated super class that has descended into a turf war as is common with any two bit gangster outfits.

    The fact remains however; either Russians had to stop the long march of the western carpetbaggers in Ukraine, Georgia, etc, or start preparations for fighting them in the outskirts of Moscow.

    We all know that the current thrust of the “consolidations/acquisitions and mergers” albeit at the point of bayonets and under the hail of machine gun fire is ceaseless “wave of progress/birth pangs of the newest of the new world order” that is the legacy of the morally bankrupt, financially bankrupt, economically bankrupt, and ideologically bankrupt western super class, who are too busy gambling away for all or nothing. After all it is not any skin off their noses, it is only few million wogs/sand niggers/coloureds/potential asylum seekers/etc who are getting killed and maimed anyway!

  39. @Uzbek -

    I’d like to make one thing abundantly clear up front. I place no faith or trust in Putin or his motives, and he fully acknowledge the fear that exists under his leadership.

    What I am questioning is an assumption that Putin is increasingly emboldened to cut loose the Red Army with the aim of reconstructing the old USSR. I’m not buying that, not yet.

    My take is that his preferred course is to buy-off the likes of Yanukovich and Lukashenko, and accumulate power and influence this way. I don’t see how what has happened in the Ukraine will cause Putin to alter his preferred course. Yes, he has a military he can use, but it’s a last resort. He’s still a KGB man to the core, and he’d rather keep the military in its box.

  40. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 4:27 pm

    You see how simple omission of ‘forced’ allows some to overlook greatest human tragedies in modern history. When Stalin was forcing thousands Chechens and Crimea Tatars into trains (like Hitler was doing with Jews), the least he was concerned is opportunities that will open up before these deported ethno groups. It was effective extermination, physical but more importantly moral.

  41. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 4:27 pm

    Uzbek

    Herby has been appointed point man on this particular thread, Uzbek.

    Having looked at his various posts, I’d advise you not to let him wind you up.

    Just keep making your points – which are in almost all cases valid and informative ones – and don’t try to reply seriously to someone who’s not serious and is just fooling around. He’s just an I’ve got talent version of Tovarish Goss :)

  42. “However, there were indications that it was the separatist Crimean government’s recently created “Self Defence Forces” who had actually carried out the fatal attack. Local officials, meanwhile, claimed that “fascist snipers” had fired the first shot from a residential building and one of the injured was one of the defence force members.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/crimea-crisis-fears-of-war-grow-after-ukrainian-officer-is-killed-at-military-base-in-simferopol-9200203.html

  43. Quite so Ben BRICS is on the back-channel.

    I myself was very interested that Putin made distinct reference to the appalling crimes against the Tartars in the 1930′s and also to the terrible suffering of Ukrainians in that period.

    Agony and pain pervade the event horizon with past crimes of the global financial elite. That pain can be relived here and intention called up:

    http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/drohobycz/history/petroleum.asp

    and here:

    http://www.drohobycz-boryslaw.org/en/drohobycz-boryslaw-and-vicinity/history

    Putin’s distinct reference to this memory of appalling crimes does indeed give some hope to future generations; the sackcloth and ashes though is eminently high; curiously the planet is left staring down the barrel of a gun or at worse viewing the radiance of a thousand suns.

  44. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 4:31 pm

    Ed

    “What I am questioning is an assumption that Putin is increasingly emboldened to cut loose the Red Army with the aim of reconstructing the old USSR. I’m not buying that, not yet.”
    ___________________

    I note your “not yet”, Ed. A wise and prudent approach. Let us wait for a while and see what happens with eastern Ukraine, Moldova and the Baltic states in the fullness of time.

  45. Habby

    “You’re drawing a parallel between (European) emigration into the USA and the forced displacement of populations within the USSR by Stalin and his henchmen.”

    Noop.

    I’m thinking of the violent displacement of native peoples across the planet, which you rather quaintly call “emigration”.

    Bit too close to home, perhaps.

  46. Schooling or what passes for it in Britain didn’t and doesn’t, dwell on Britain’s inglorious and continuing despicable and treacherous affairs. You forget Poland hadn’t existed since Chopin was in short trousers until the Versailles carve-up post WW1.

    Why should we care which set of oligarchs rule over us much less over Ukranians. A pox on all of their razor-wire and cctv’d tasteless castles and keeps, their place in the country and their bling. I think all this Russia versus ‘the West’ baloney is like the fake left-right paradigm, just a bun-fight amongst the ruling psychopaths. We’re being led up the garden path again. Like World War One, a Battenburg-Windsor-Guelph family squabble with our ‘King’, the German Kaiser and Russian Tsar, all not too distant relations, between them effecting a cull of the masses. In France during world war one, more people – pacifists and conscientious objectors were killed by over-worked firing squads than Robespierres terror or the Spanish Inquisition ever despatched. Here’s to self-determination for all people and an end to massed ranks of pawns being slaughtered for some rich man’s ego and as an end in itself.

    It’s so pleasing that the our media’s latest bogeyman over there, is, on the streets, pubs and clapped-out omnibus -the bad boy anti-hero, the enlightened human that said enough is enough what’s past is past, we all go forward together, we rebuild each our new societies not on the ashes or on the graves of our forebears but on living growing hopes for a better world. The time is now before the poison that is capitalism destroys and devours the whole planet, before nuclear follies or natural disaster of our own making destroys all.

    There’s only one Vlad Putin! Come the hour, come the man.

  47. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 4:43 pm

    On the matter of western response. Just read one very accurate description from Mr Leontyev. Mad lefties are no doubt familiar with one of Putin’s ‘Dr Goebbels’ who was recently (after years of pro-putin rants on TV) promoted to the PR Directors or Rosneft (Russia’s largest Oil company).

    Leontyev said that western reaction is like attempt to stop “wild tiger with a toothbrush”.

  48. The breadth of your knowledge takes my breath away, Mark.

    Wheels within the wheels of triangulation makes occam’s razor simply infer….Follow the money.

  49. Craig: “Personally I should like to see a complete financial freeze on the entire Russian oligarchy. The knock on effects would only hurt a few bankers, and city types and those who depend on them (cocaine dealers, lap dancers, Porsche dealers, illegal domestic servants). Sadly we shan’t see anything happen. They won’t let Eton go bust”.

    Personally, I would like to see a complete financial freeze on the entire US and UK oligarchy, especially the ones who engaged in regime change operations in Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Ukraine, Sudan, Afganistan and, of course, the attempt on Syria. better yet, it would be great to not only freeze the assets of the Kagans, Nuland, Bush, Feith, Wolfowitz, Pojo Zabludovich, Aipac etc (just to mention a few of the parties involved) but actually confiscate and use as compensation to the millions of victims they left in their wake. I would love to see freeze of the asset of that idiot Robert ford who did more damage to human beings than 5 Putins combined.

    As for Ukraine, we are just beginning to see the outlines of what a fascist dominated state might look like. But hey, this must be ‘democracy” because by definition they are “our” fascists, just like in Syria, the cuddly, lovable Al Nusra were “our “Al Queda” (oops that must be ISIS).

    And while we are at it, may be it’s time to bring the house of saud, that most despotic of regimes to justice? surely they have a few billions spare as compensation for the good people of Egypt? or gaza?

    It’s really something when people use twists of the English language to redefine meanings. So the military “coup” in Egypt was not a coup because, well, the people wanted it. And in Ukraine, it wasn’t a coup d’etat, supported by those regime change artists (Nuland et al) because, well, the people of Ukraine wanted “freedom”. It would be laughable were it not so tragic.

    While no one denies Putin is a nationalist, he is by far the sanest leader around. he did what he had to do because no one doubts what the plan was all about. His speech was pretty good all in all. While not denying a touch of hypocricy, that’s something Obama/Kerry have first dibs on.

    Congratulations to the people of Crimea for their courage and perseverance in voting the bums out (cf Yat’s, the hoodlums et al).

  50. @Uzbek – Very confused by your last comment.

    You say, and I see no reason to disagree, that for years, Leontyev was a Putin apparatchik, spewing ludicrous pro-Kremlin proganda. And now, he spews further obvious pro-Kremlin talking points, yet this time we are supposed to take him seriously?

    Either you are now being taken in by the same propaganda you say dopy leftists were long duped by, or suddenly Leontyev is not the propagandist you claim he is.

    Please elaborate.

  51. doug scorgie

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:00 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    19 Mar, 2014 – 2:30 pm

    “…but as many western lefties claim, putin is a good guy.”

    Uzbek, who are these “many western lefties” you claim that Putin is a good guy?

    Why do you not give links or references for your claims?

  52. An aside: re the reference to the suffering of the Ukrainians during the famine: history records the name one of the primary agents of the holodomor as Kaganovich. History will also record one of the key agents of the war crimes against Iraq (nearly 1 Million dead and country destroyed) as a certain Kagan. And now, when it comes to the handover of the Ukrainian people to a fascist regime (+a new selection of favored oligarchs) we have another kagan in the shadows (right next to Nuland).

    just keeping the records straight – for the history books, you know…..

  53. Uzzie

    ‘Dr Goebbels’ was a student of Edward Bernays who more or less constructed the propaganda model for the Americans.

    I know you like to throw this propaganda about but it doesn’t aid understanding.

    In fact, you remind me very much of that rather piss poor propaganda the Soviets used to put out.

    We’re more amused than impressed, and especially so when you do it in a funny voice.

  54. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:04 pm

    Mark Golding

    How cheaply you were bought by Putin’s propaganda. Back in times Stalin announced to the world that Soviet Jews were given their own autonomy. By accident it was further away from inhabitable lands of vast soviet empire than Gulag. Try finding Jewish autonomous region on Russian map, and you will get what I mean. It did not stop Stalin from unleashing terror on Jews in Doctors Case and other less known murders. It is irony how western lefties keep buying KGB propaganda throughout generations. I assume it is a case of what one wants to believe in then what one is actually hearing.

  55. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:07 pm

    Ed

    Make your judgment on Leontyev yourself. I just said what he said about western reaction on Crimean Anschluss. It pretty much describes how little influence west have over putin.

  56. “How cheaply you were bought by Putin’s propaganda. Back in times Stalin announced to the world that Soviet Jews were given their own autonomy. By accident it was further away from inhabitable lands of vast soviet empire than Gulag. Try finding Jewish autonomous region on Russian map, and you will get what I mean. It did not stop Stalin from unleashing terror on Jews in Doctors Case and other less known murders. It is irony how western lefties keep buying KGB propaganda throughout generations. I assume it is a case of what one wants to believe in then what one is actually hearing.”

    You have many assumptions supported with anecdotes.

  57. Craig writes:

    Here is my own analysis, for what it is worth.

    It’s absolutely worth NOTHING, and I’d appreciate that you’d email these rants beforehand to us free people living in some of the worlds free enclaves, befor you publish this rubbish. It’s important for all free men and women to recognbise: Craig Murray is a nut-case, and a nullity, which should be ignored at all tumes.. He really needs to ask for PERMISSION from the free peoples of the world before he publish anything. What have the world come to if buts like these just think they can punlish anything that springs to their perverted minds?

  58. I agree, Ben and Mark, about BRICS. My first thought when I read this much more measured blog-post, like the Craig Murray of old, was Putin’s reason for keeping those countries sweet. However, China’s abstention, while not being an endorsement of Crimea’s referendum, was not an opposition to it. China has a lot of investment in the US, as well as elsewhere, and in the good old fashion of Henry Kissinger’s triangular diplomacy, was probably the prudent move. It only takes one veto to veto something, and I believe the UK abstained over a resolution regarding Guantanamo Bay.

  59. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:17 pm

    doug scorgie

    Do your own reading. Nobody provided me references when I wanted to learn something. I presume you are elder (and hopefully more intelligent) than A-level student.

    I could not even speak English until few years ago (and still have issues with it as evident from my writing) but it did not stop me from learning, researching and thinking.

    What I am trying to say is that pro-putin propaganda is not the only source. There are different opinions on those matters, different histories just like in case with intervention to Iraq. Why in one case you read from different sources (rather than ZBBC or SKY) and in another you blindly believe information coming from one single source (KGB)?

    Does it make you MAD leftie? Judge for yourself (proportionately to your level of intelligence)

  60. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:19 pm

    Ben

    Read mate. If this is anecdote for you than I am sorry for western education (or more precise) for the school and university (if any) you attended.

  61. What have the world come to if nuts like these just think they can publish anything that springs to their perverted minds? And on their own websites! Well, I’ve never. On their own websites! And these jerks thinks that they can just publish all the rubbish that befell their perverted minds! Is that it?

    Well it will be without me then. Either its me or you. Do you understand? Either you close this website down in recognition that you’re just a nut case, or I’ll be leaving. Which will you prefer?

  62. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:22 pm

    Marlin

    Do you think that Chechens, Dagestanies, Tatars and Bashkirs have to be given the same opportunity, as Crimean Russians? For the sake of Russian domination over them being tested against strong rule of popular vote?

  63. And here we have finger pointing about racist thugs in Russia without a passing mention of the Nato-US State Dept-Chatham House-backed Nazi regime in Kyiv.

    What did Jesus say about moats and beams? LOL.

    And if “Russia was right over Kosovo, and thus is wrong over Crimea”, then the West though right about Crimea, must have been wrong about Kosovo, so Putin is playing tit-for-tat, an elementary rule of the game of international politics.

    Nazi-NATO committed an act of murderous aggression in Kyiv with the aim, among other things, of putting nukes on Russia’s Ukraine border. What’s a competent Russian leader supposed to do? Nothing?

    O’Barmy and co. must have known that Russia would respond by taking back the Russian territory of Crimea: that’s why it’s happened without a shot fired. The whole thing was probably scripted in advance by a joint US-Russian working group.

    On the face of it, Russia has gained much less than the West, but Putin is probably betting that the addition of one more large and economically non-functional state to the Eurozone will finish the European Union.

  64. The truth is of course that the global political elite are in the pockets of the global financial elite,

    Well …. doesn’t just stop there whenever you have only just got started, Craig. Go on please, and finish the progression, or at least progress it to the next spooky level …… and the global financial elite are in whose pockets filled to overflowing with sensitive intelligence and juicy information?

    Invariably it will not be what/who you think it is, for such is the true nature of the intelligence beast in Great Games Play ….. it protects itself from live discovery, and leaves the deserving to deal with the chaos and madness that sub-prime systems mal-administration collapse delivers with the presentation of catastrophic systemic flaws.

  65. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:24 pm

    Kenneth Sorensen

    What is wrong with you? I met no one who has more courage and more integrity than Mr Murray. You can argue with him, but dismissing his thoughts as rubbish does not make you any good.

    Even MAD lefties on this blog are right (correct) sometimes. Just not in this particular case.

  66. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 5:38 pm

    CanSpeccy

    One could look at it and see that precisely because of putin’s reaction over Ukrainian revolution many former soviet colonies in eastern Europe are very encouraged to bring US nukes onto their territory. Something that did not exist before.

    In fact Putin made NATO very relevant again and will push European nations into military spending again. Something western lefties have been opposing for ages.

  67. Gilbert Mercier, Editor in Chief of News Junkie Post, has done a telephone interview on PressTV in which he says Russia has sold off 80% of its US treasury bonds. If China sold its remaining bonds, amounting to $1.3 trillion, it would amount to half the holdings of foreign investors.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/03/18/355142/sanction-on-russia-causes-global-crisis/

    To my mind it seems ludicrous that any foreign country would want to buy another country’s debt, even in times of prosperity – but today even more so – of course they did not buy them yesterday. This too might be a reason why China abstained in the veto.

  68. Craig Murray is a nut case. Just look at his photo! He needs to close this websitw down in recognition that he’s a nut case who has NO rights in addressing free peoples of this world. Indeed its an isult every time he does.

  69. “because of putin’s reaction over Ukrainian revolution many former soviet colonies in eastern Europe are very encouraged to bring US nukes onto their territory.”

    For which claim you offer no evidence whatever.

    Anyone with nukes will be targeted with nukes, so what’s the big attraction?

    Anyway, the US already has 480 nukes in Europe. Isn’t that enough to reduce Russia to radioactive ash?

    In fact, the missiles, if any, that NATO will deploy in Ukraine will be designed to destroy Russia’s second-strike capability, following a Nazi-Nato first strike, as in the case of missiles already on the Russian border in Poland. Such missile installations will, naturally, be targeted by Russian missiles.

  70. Just look at his longt blog post. I have never understood any of them. Lesson one in any blogging is that you try — in every day words – to address current problems that ordinary men and women care about. But this bloke just cannot speak in a language that ordinary men and women understands! He’s a nut case, that shall be ignored. He is in this world due to our mercy, and he need to act accordingly.

  71. “broken up into separate individual houses/nations…”

    Uz, that’s reductive. The cultures dividing the US are not ethnic but historical. The cultures are distinct in terms of their propensity for violence, psychological makeup (particularly intellect and neuroticism) and tolerance for authoritarianism. Some nations, like New England, are remarkably cohesive in terms of intra/inter communication patterns, and others like Dixie are xenophobic even toward their nominal compatriots.

    So when it’s time for the US to implode like its mirror image the USSR, it could bust up several different ways:

    http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/fall2013/features/up-in-arms.html

    https://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/174-the-nine-nations-of-north-america/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed

    Just don’t be in Texas when it happens, they’ll string you up!

  72. “it seems ludicrous that any foreign country would want to buy another country’s debt”

    Which shows just how much you know!

    China bought US debt as part of its merchantilist trade policy. By accepting paper for real goods, China speeded the hollowing out of the American economy. At the same time it gave China a powerful economic weapon against the US should it ever be needed.

    China could, for example, wade into the stock market and buy all of America’s defense contractors. Well of course the government of the free market US of A would have to prohibit that by law. But at least China could buy, say, Apple, Exxon, IBM and Google for cash anytime they like.

  73. So Craig, you are not one of these MAKERS, DOERS AND SAVERS then!

    George Osborne claims his Budget is for “makers, doers and savers” but Labour says it is for the “wealthy” and the “privileged”.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1228381/budget-2014-for-makers-doers-and-savers

    We are taken for eejits.

  74. The Western backed fascists in Kiev continue their brownshirt bullying.

    Here a fascist MP forces a television chief to resign.

    The comments below give further info, including other such incidents involving Uzzie’s friends:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/19/ukrainian-mp-assaults-television-chief-pro-russian-miroshnichenko-panteleymonov

  75. Its interesting that the BBC are giving such prominence to the right wing group who have forced the TV boss to resign because he showed Putin’s speech. I saw this on RT and wondered if it was just staged Russian PR but now I see it on the BBC (of course after years of conditioning when I see it on the BBC I believe it). Anyway I couldn’t but surmise that this, i.e. intimidation of a TV boss, is really what gets the BBC’s goat and gets it to come off message.

    Why on earth did that group film themselves doing it? Are they really that thug’ish. Do they think that by filming and broadcasting themselves they will intimidate others and not calculate that the negative foreign press can take second place to the immediate fear generated. Anyway have to be surprised that it has also resulted in the BBC, previously pretty much on message, going off message and broadcasting the very Kiev face which Putin is pointing at and which we have hitherto been ignoring. Curious.

  76. A few more videos detailing Western-backed Ukrainian fascist attacks on Russians.

    Viewer discretion advised.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=37a_1394230961

    How anyone on this blog can support this is beyond me.

  77. Excuse me Mr Sorensen, are you on the right page?

  78. Would you like to buy my debts Canspeccy?

  79. “Why on earth did that group film themselves doing it?”

    There’s a big network of these fascists all over Europe, and they’re quite proud of themselves and wish to share.

    They believe that fascism is the future and within their own groups it feels like that.

    I’m afraid we’ve become much too complacent, and there’s plenty of complacency and outright stupidity in this blog, so far as events in Ukraine are concerned.

  80. Herbie – its not easy to know what is going on. Information is limited and its difficult to evaluate.

  81. Would you like to buy my debts Canspeccy?

    Certainly not. You have no central bank to print the money to pay them back.

  82. The UK, US and japan can clone currency. Not so much, the Ukraine, so austerity has even less chance of working.

  83. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 7:04 pm

    Uzbek

    I have already advised you how to deal with Herbie, the junior Tovarish Goss.

    Regarding Doug Scorgie, I’d give you similar advice. His favorite trick is to ask people for “references and links”. This is strange from someone to whom I once supplied a link on request and who then told me, upon interogation, that “he couldn’t be arsed to read it”.

    So keep making your points, but ignore him. He’s not serious either.

  84. At last we agree on something. It’s better to ignore the unserious.

  85. Fool

    To me the BBC has been pretty notably changing round to a pro-Russian position the last few days, cheer led by Jon Simpson’s utterly uncritical reporting of the “97%” nonsense. I think the word has got round that sanctions might hit Mandelson’s yacht opportunities or Boris Johnson’s mates in the City, so it’s all to be played down.

  86. Would you like to buy my debts Canspeccy?

    Certainly not. You have no central bank to print the money to pay them back.”

    The central bank. Would that be this one then Canspeccy?

    http://www.minyanville.com/business-news/the-economy/articles/Federal-Reserve-Fed-portfolio-bonds-portfolio/12/11/2013/id/52994

  87. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 7:26 pm

    (Uzbek) “There was no ethnic cleansing or even any sort of danger to Russians in Crimea. Completely opposite to Kosovars”

    This is true, isn’t it? As ‘Fool’ says “its not easy to know what is going on. Information is limited and its difficult to evaluate”

    Where’s the social media from Ukraine? With Turkey (where I disagreed with Craig’s analysis actually) reports from the ground were everywhere.

  88. Craig

    “To me the BBC has been pretty notably changing round to a pro-Russian position the last few days, cheer led by Jon Simpson’s utterly uncritical reporting of the “97%” nonsense. I think the word has got round that sanctions might hit Mandelson’s yacht opportunities or Boris Johnson’s mates in the City, so it’s all to be played down.”

    You’re partially correct, but that’s not good enough.

    The BBC is certainly playing down the sanctions end of things because that could hurt Britain, just as the EU is playing them down too.

    They’re however not playing down the political propaganda.

  89. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 7:32 pm

    Not ‘pro Russian’ in our parliament, though, according to the Times’ sketch writer. One dissident voice, Edward Leigh ‘We must stop playing power games. The West cannot tear Ukraine away from Russia”.

  90. The central bank. Would that be this one then Canspeccy?

    Don’t know what your link is all about.

    My point, that if you have a central bank you can repay your debts, was that the US Fed, or any other central bank, can print money without limit. (That’s why Greece and Spain are in deep shit, as soon will Ukraine also be. They cannot print away their deficits.) So any country with a central bank can always repay it’s loans. If the US Fed were to repay all US Government debts that way overnight there’d be a spot of hyper-inflation. But I assume you don’t owe that much.

  91. As a chess fan I must admit I’ve enjoyed Grandmaster Putin move today, pulling yet another neat one, leaving all the Russophobes scratching their heads !

  92. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 8:14 pm

    How extraordinary to call people who object to a murderous regime ‘Russophobes’. Strangely analogous to those people who accuse critics of the West as ‘haters of their country’. And yet, guess what, the victims of the latter are first to point the same finger. Human nature: endlessly fascinating.

  93. No Technicolour, there is a difference between those who smear others as self-haters, and quite another to those that display an irrational fear/dislike of Russians.

  94. Excellent article.

  95. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 8:36 pm

    Really, Macky. ‘People who have an irrational fear or dislike of Russians’ is what you call people who object to murderous Russian regimes. The analogy is exact.

  96. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 8:37 pm

    I expect if you were part of the FSB you would describe Anna Politskvaya as a ‘self-hater’.

  97. @Technicolour, you’ve progressed from “who object to a murderous regime” to “who object to murderous Russian regimes” ! Next you will be doing a Uzbek in the UK special in declaring that Russians are inherently ““Chauvinistic ”; BTW when was the last time you called the UK, US or French, etc governments “murderous regimes” ?

  98. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 8:47 pm

    Habbabkuk’s Invigilating Service

    Mr Goss posts the following

    “Gilbert Mercier, Editor in Chief of News Junkie Post {NB – for which Mr Goss also writes }, has done a telephone interview on PressTV in which he says Russia has sold off 80% of its US treasury bonds.”

    I was going to ask Mr Goss how he thought Monsieur Mercier would know that, but then to save him unnecessary effort thought I’d first listen to the link provided.

    There, Monsieur Mercier said it was “according to the US Central Bank” (sic),but gave no further information (eg, when and how). Press TV did not, of course, press him on that.

    Has anyone seen anything official from the US Treasury on this? Or something from a reliable source? Or is Monsieur Mercier just possibly making it up?

  99. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 8:51 pm

    I think we’ll leave readers of the thread to understand why I inserted the word ‘Russian’, since it came of the back off your ‘Russophobic’ comment. Your beef with Uzbek you can take up with Uzbek, I think. As for when I last called blah blah blah: is that the best you can do? Because if you’re trying to smear me as someone who doesn’t stand up against murderous violence wherever it happens, you’re batting on the wrong team.

  100. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 8:53 pm

    “I’m thinking of the violent displacement of native peoples across the planet, which you rather quaintly call “emigration”.”
    _____________________-

    Pity, that.

    And there was I, thinking about the forced displacement of entire nations. Cattle trucks, y’know – 3000km journeys in the winter cold – 20% death rates during those deportations – Siberia or the Kazakh desert – a cup of water and two salt dry fish every two days. You know!

    ****************

    “Life just got better, life just got merrier!” (V.V. Putin, 2014)

  101. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 8:59 pm

    CanSpeccy

    “My point, that if you have a central bank you can repay your debts, was that the US Fed, or any other central bank, can print money without limit. (That’s why Greece and Spain are in deep shit, as soon will Ukraine also be. They cannot print away their deficits.)

    ____________________

    Correct in general.

    Does Ukraine not have its own Central Bank? Simple yes or no would do.

  102. Technicolour; “I think we’ll leave readers of the thread to understand why I inserted the word ‘Russian’

    I think the more discerning have already understood.

    “As for when I last called”

    What no links to provide !? No, didn’t think so.

    I don’t think I have to smear you as anything, your own comments reveal all.

  103. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:06 pm

    Yes, classic Macky; attack and attempt to destroy. No, no links for you.

    Habbakuk, have you never heard of the slave trade?

  104. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:11 pm

    Technicolour writes

    “Strangely analogous to those people who accuse critics of the West as ‘haters of their country’.”

    To which Macky replies

    “No Technicolour, there is a difference between those who smear others as self-haters, and…”
    _________________

    Macky apparently thinks that self-haters and haters of their country are the same thing.

    Sharpen up, O Blunt Knife!

  105. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:15 pm

    Back to Ukraine, apparently, social media is heavily controlled there, which is why we’ve heard very little from it. Not a good thing, or sign.

  106. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:19 pm

    “Habbakuk, have you never heard of the slave trade?”
    ___________________

    Sure, Technicolour. But you’re not suggesting that the transportation of slaves to the New World was a matter of state policy, are you? Which is certainly what the deportation of nations in the Soviet Union was.

    The transport of slaves was made illegal everywhere in the west by the middle of the C19. The deportation in the Soviet Union took place almost a century later.

  107. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:26 pm

    True. But either way, unelected despots ruling by force – and presumably ideology, though different ideologies. ‘We are better than’ (slaves/moujiks/tsarists/liberals/fascists) is probably the common ground.

  108. The Russian comparison between Kosovo and Crimea does land them in the logical soup, as Craig points out. But I’m mystified why such an experienced professional insists on seeing the Ukraine crisis in such black and white terms, with Putin as the undisputed heavy.

    To me, it’s clear he was responding to escalating chaos in Kiev (however obnoxious he and his pals may be). I also think the “cold war” never really ended for the US and British ruling elites. Something like this would probably have happened whoever was sitting in the Kremlin.

    A couple of corrections:

    1. The Indian PM has “urged Putin to engage diplomatically with the interim government in Kiev, which certainly would not be welcome to Putin”.

    Earlier this month, Putin said his PM (Medvedev) was in contact with one of the new ministers in Kiev, though it’s true he won’t allow any contact with the new president in Kiev.

    2. Yesterday, Putin “twice (said) the boundaries (between Ukraine and Russia) had not been demarcated. That seemed to indicate a very general threat to Eastern Ukraine.”

    Unless I’m mistaken, I don’t think the land border between Ukraine and Russia has been finally demarcated (partly due to Russian foot-dragging). If so, this remark doesn’t indicate any kind of “threat” to anyone.

    (Here’s a very interesting paper on the subject from a few years back by a Ukrainian academic teaching at the University of Vienna:

    http://www.bmlv.gv.at/pdf_pool/publikationen/ukraine_zerissen_zw_ost_u_west_m_malek_ukraines_border_t_zhurzhenko.pdf

  109. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:35 pm

    And in fact, Habbakuk, though it’s a stretch, there’s a rather convincing analysis which shows that the current capitalist model of employing desperate workers at subsistence rates is in fact much more economically attractive to the employer; as with slaves you had to provide food and accommodation, but under the Walmart/Nike model, you are released from these onerous obligations.

    Don’t expect you will want to watch it, but here are the Yes Men infiltrating a serious conference – the reactions are quite boggling:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps9BC7D6jC0

  110. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:39 pm

    Andy: “I also think the “cold war” never really ended for the US and British ruling elites”

    why do you think this?

  111. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:44 pm

    And yes, the signs from ‘our’ new model Ukraine do not look good

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/19/kiev-tv-attack_n_4995160.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

  112. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:51 pm

    CanSpeccy

    Now you contradict yourself. You are saying that any country with nukes will be targeted with nukes. While this is most certainly true, why then do you think that Ukraine will want US nukes more than Poland or Baltic nations? You claimed that US was after Ukraine to install their nukes to hit Russian with second wave. But then you dismissed the case that putin’s actions in Ukraine will encourage other eastern European nations (whose conventional weapons no match to Russian, mostly in quantity) to host US nukes or at least anti-nuke missiles in order to reduce putin’s will to Anschluss part of their country too. Is not this antithesis to your own thesis?

    In fact you sounded just like KGB propaganda brainwashed man. Why on earth do yo think that anyone is seriously considering nuclear war? Nuclear arms (since both US and USSR had them) served only as deterrence mechanism. Even in the highest times of Cold War although both countries were producing more and more of nukes, both were engaged more in diplomatic stand offs and proxy wars than with even possibilities of using nukes against each other. Term mutually assured distraction originated right at those times.

  113. technicolour

    19 Mar, 2014 - 9:57 pm

    Habbakuk: got interested, didn’t mean to diminish the horrors of the Russian ‘revolution’, sorry.

  114. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 10:00 pm

    Macky

    Prove me wrong please. Prove that Russian empire that is still expanding (Georgia, Ukraine who is next?) is not ruled by notion of Russian chauvinism. In fact because of this very notion it was always easy to manipulate Russians by their rulers. Russian were/are ready to sacrifice their lives for greatness of their nation. For Mother Russia they say.

    No wonder there have always been corrupt governments who by feeding people false hopes and ideas stashed their pockets with russian gold.

    Claiming that Crimean Anschluss was legal or moraly right and not allowing Chechens who were murdered by their thousands to even have opportunity to vote for whether they want to be ruled by Moscow is hypocrisy. Or only Russians are allowed to cast vote? Thsi actually what have happened in Crimea.

  115. Uzbek: who is next? If anyone? Can Russia really afford to keep this up?

  116. Andy: “I also think the “cold war” never really ended for the US and British ruling elites”

    why do you think this?

    Technicolour

    Basically, I don’t accept the usual definition of the “cold war”. So the process which most western historians/commentators etc. refer to using this label didn’t end in 1989 and continues to this day.

  117. Habby apparently thinks that the people he smears as “West-haters” that live in the West aren’t Westerners !!

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/the-wrong-referendum-the-wrong-saviour/comment-page-2/#comment-446593

    Pipe Down, O Dull Troll!

  118. Andy, then what do you accept as a definition of the Cold War?

    Macky, random fire as always. Sad.

  119. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 10:38 pm

    Technicolour

    There are certainly domestic drives for this new Russian assertiveness. Something that most MAD lefties miss (or hide) out.

    Looking years back, putin’s rating shot up when he showed his toughness in dealing with Chechen terrorists. None of the MAD lefties never questioned apartments blocks explosions in Moscow and Volgodonsk. This and Chechen insurgency rades in Dagestan (I think all masterly staged by KGB to bring one of their own to power) left Russians devastated and humiliated. Putin’s harsh character and rhetoric and harsh actions that followed (see second Russian war in Chechnya) made him the most popular president after electoral votes have been accounted in 2000.

    9/11 and followed wars which resulted in mass death and also in oil/gas price hikes played on putin’s hands. In fact none of Russian media (and none of MAD lefties) report current level of corruption in Russia and the fact that Russian economy is more dependent on raw commodity exports even comparing to Yeltsin’s presidency.

    So in eyes of many Russians especially those who happily vote for putin he is associated with tough stance towards Russian ethnic minorities (especially Chechens) and so called Russian economic boom (so called because anyone who have read little about Russian economy would know where this surplus is actually coming from).

    So for putin to survive politically he MUST do 3 things. 1. Keep his tough stance against west and increase Russian assertiveness towards former colonies (Russian public loves him for this as we have witnessed after both wars against Georgia and latest Crimean Anschluss). 2. Make sure that money flow to Russia continues satisfying both his electorate and those who around him. 3. Make sure that no Russian private company is independent enough to challenge him (Hodorkovsky case was sufficient for putin to make sure that oligarchs are complacent with his policy).

    In fact what annoys me a LOT is that MAD lefties so critical about investment bankers and even some Russian oligarchs (like Abramovich or Usmanov) keep overlooking the fact that putin is largest Russian oligarchs with fortunes reported to hit over 50 billion USD.

  120. The P*l*st*ne Precedent

    19 Mar, 2014 - 10:41 pm

    @Andy 9:32 Don’t really see a logical problem with Putin’s Kosovo analogy. There was a dispute. An ICJ judgment resolved the dispute with a ruling, which Putin quotes:

    “Pursuant to Article 2, Chapter 1 of the United Nations Charter, the UN International Court agreed with this approach and made the following comment in its ruling of July 22, 2010, and I quote: “No general prohibition may be inferred from the practice of the Security Council with regard to declarations of independence,” and “General international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence.” Crystal clear, as they say.”

    The ref made the call. The court laid down the law. Russia’s position at the time is neither here nor there. UN member nations are now obligated to comply with this addition to the body of law.

  121. Sofia Kibo Noh

    19 Mar, 2014 - 10:55 pm

    Technicolour. 10 06pm

    “Uzbek: who is next? If anyone? Can Russia really afford to keep this up?”

    Who is next? Maybe you should be asking Victoria Nuland that one.

    IMO Russia only needs to “keep this up” longer than a bankrupt US and it’s bankrupt EU vassals run out of steam. What would you say are the odds?

  122. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 10:59 pm

    Macky

    Let me put it straight. I do not hate Russians. In fact I respect Russians and have many friends who are Russians in both Russia, UK, US, Ukraine, Uzbekistan and elsewhere in Central Asia.

    What I am against is behaviour of current russian government and also support it has for such behaviour from Russians. Russians more and more remind me Germans in 1930th. Not all Germans were Nazis but there was certainly enough of them to legitimise Nazi regime. Not all Russians support Putin but certainly enough to assure him that in order to keep himself politically alive he must deliver more and more on chauvinistic agendas.

    And I am afraid that racism is also catching up with chauvinism in Russia. If only you were from central asia and read about lived of millions of central asians who work in Russia. On almost monthly basis there are some xenophobic killings in Russia. These left mostly unreported in mainstream Russian media, but on various central asian resources there is mountains of information.

    But still I respect those Russians I know and I believe that only if there was less of KGB propaganda and more of the liberal values in Russia Russian society could have been better. It might actually be a case that empire and drive to keep and enlarge it makes Russians worse (like it made French and British).

  123. Uzbek in the UK; “Prove me wrong please. Prove that Russian empire that is still expanding”

    No, I see an increasingly encircled Russia being provoked & force to protect itself & its interests.

    “(Georgia, Ukraine who is next?) is not ruled by notion of Russian chauvinism. In fact because of this very notion it was always easy to manipulate Russians by their rulers. Russian were/are ready to sacrifice their lives for greatness of their nation. For Mother Russia they say”

    It’s very strange that only Russian chauvinism exists in your one-sided version of history; were the Mongols who burnt Moscow down more than once, not chauvinistic, how about the various invasions by the Golden Horde tribes, or those by the Ottoman Turks ?, not even the British & French who helped the Turks in the Crimean War ? No inherent chauvinism attribution for any of these, only for the Russians ?

    Re Chechnya, according to Wiki; “In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia, but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[56] In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army”

    But you will have no argument from me in agreeing that the Chechens have the right of self-determination, but just like Britain holds onto a part of Ireland, the Spanish to the Basque country, the French to Corsica, even without real or dodgy referendums, Russia is not exactly unique in wanting to hold onto land so nearby to itself; it doesn’t make it right, but it also doesn’t mean that the Russians are uniquely “chauvinistic”.

  124. Uzbek; can’t disagree – the ‘Chechen’ bombings were absurdly badly staged; not that ‘Chechens’ didn’t have a reason to do them, of course. I guess once you firebomb a capital it’s easy to manufacture a grudge. But, anyway, after they crushed Yabloko, there is no real alternative – that I know of, anyway. So Putin will carry on (although I seem to remember the UN observers criticising at least one election for being utterly rigged). And of course protests there are crushed, and even small members of pop groups sent to Siberia – go on, cheer the rulers on, you wonderful fellow travellers.

  125. “No, I see an increasingly encircled Russia being provoked & force to protect itself & its interests.”

    Ah, the inhuman triumphing. I think that says all we need to know about you, ‘Macky’.

  126. Joe Biden; the Fool on the Hill..

    ““As long as Russia continues on this dark path, they will face increase political and economic isolation,” Biden told reporters in the Lithuanian capital, Vilnius.

    “The president wanted me to come personally to make it clear what you already know that under Article 5 under the NATO treaty, we will respond. We will respond to any aggression against a NATO ally.”

  127. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:09 pm

    Sofia Kibo Noh

    Let assume that you have your own shop. You sell your goods to 2 most regular customers. Would you be interested in them both getting bankrupt?

    There is no more communism vs capitalism and if anything Russia is more capitalist (sort of wild west capitalism with no respect for law) and Russia (especially current regime) would do everything to keep money flow to Russia.

    It went unnoticed by MAD lefties but 4 years ago when Russian regime decided to reduce subsidies for petrol it sold on local market and it led to 20% increase in petrol price for locals huge riots broke out in 6 Russian cities, one of which was Vladivostok, city of strategic importance for Russia.

    Russian regime is alive as long as it delivers on both Russian Chauvinism and economic prosperity. Any move from this and putin is out of kremlin with similar speed as Yanukovich was out of Ukraine.

  128. I was in Russia when the rulers embraced capitalism.

  129. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:16 pm

    Technicolour (21h57)

    No problem, I didn’t think you were doing that.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Re “Uzbek: who is next? If anyone? Can Russia really afford to keep this up?”

    I think Uzbek’s analysis of Russia and Putin (22h38) is correct. I’d add, more generally, that liberal democracies are always hobbled by what makes them liberal democracies when dealing with fascist states, whether these are nominally of the right or of the left (the 30s serve as another good example). This is because of the existence of an electorate whose economic, political and even moral views have to be taken into account at least to some extent, a free press, the opportunity dissidents and useful idiots have to bring their views to public notice without fear of being silenced in various unpleasant (including terminal)ways, and, I suppose, a certain liberal tradition created over time. All these are constraints or potential constraints on the actions of liberal democracies which do not really exist in countries like Russia.

    So I think Russia can afford to keep this up if so minded, at least for the time being. But in the long run it will pay the price, in the same way as the old USSR did.

  130. Resident Dissident

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:16 pm

    A few thoughts:

    Many here do not realise the extent which a degree of nationalism, that we would find surprising by western standards, became an ingrained feature throughout the Eastern bloc. Have no doubt that the large majority of Russians support the idea that Crimea belonging to Russia – and you can see similar nationalist fervour elsewhere. The difference with Russia is its overwhelming size and influence combined with a nationalist and corrupt leader who likes to play the bully boy with others on what he believes is his patch. He is also all to aware of the old game of whipping up nationalism and racism to divert attention away from his countries economic woes.

    The greed of Russian oligarchs really is eye watering even by Western standards. We have had a trend towards to greater inequality in much of the West but I’m afraid Russia really leaves us behind. The indifference towards the less well off and ordinary workers within Russia really is something that would make even the most right wing Tories in this country wince – you can see this coming through in the declining levels of support for those who have to rely on public support – lousy pensions, declining support for public schools and healthcare and in many cases truly appalling housing . It is only through traditional family structures, which anyone who knows are much stronger in Russia than in the West (largely because they were the real mechanism by which the people protected themselves from the Soviet State) that many of the less well off have some degree of protection. The welfare state safety net really is well and truly broken in Russia.

    The notion of socialism in Russia which was only really given lip service in the late Soviet years doesn’t even get that nowadays. Those oligarchs such as Khodorovsky who belatedly discover that they have a social conscience are very quickly sat on by the others such as Putin and his supporters who have no time for such liberal thinking.

    Despite all this there are many in Russian and elsewhere in the former Soviet bloc who get all this and see the way forward through liberal thinking and democracy (some of who we are fortunate enough to hear from here). They should be encouraged. Please note I most pointedly didn’t say “western” liberalism – it is different and will become even more different with time and as circumstances develop.

    The likes of Macky and John Goss really have no clue of what has happened in Russia and the Eastern bloc over the last 25 years, and they demonstrate this time and time again. This is not surprising since they never really understood what happened in the preceding 70 years and still have some idealised idea that although the Soviet system had its faults it did represent the best hope for what they saw as socialism. I’m afraid they are too far gone to realise the error of their ways – or listen to real socialists, such as Orwell who pointed this out many years ago. Pity is probably the best response. Macky may wish to call me a Russia hater or similar but he really has no clue.

    Not surprisingly, I disagree with Craig on the Kosovo/Crimea comparison – but then I do believe that there is a case for real liberal interventionism when there is genocide and ethnic cleansing going on. Yes I would love it to be on a multilateral basis and within the terms of a clear international law – but the UN doesn’t always work and the law can be an ass at times. It is more of a “conservative” position to be a stickler for the absolute letter of the law.

  131. Yeah. Russia has managed to be the worst case of Socialism and Capitalism. It’s like siblings having children.

  132. I believe many of the oligarch’s are front men for Western interests stolen during the 1990s and hence they are hardly likely to have their assets frozen

  133. Resident Dissident

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:26 pm

    “Re Chechnya, according to Wiki; “In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia, but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[56] In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army””

    You make a valid point about the historical roots of Russian chauvinism – chauvinism begat chauvinism – but quite how it will be reduced by invading the Crimea and other bits of the Soviet Union defies all normal underatnding. However on the Chechen referendum if you really believe that the Chechen referendum really demonstrates Putin’s good record in the treatment of the Chechens then you really should read Anna Polikovskaya on the subject before demonstrating your ignorance on the matter in the future.

  134. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:29 pm

    “I believe many of the oligarch’s are front men for Western interests stolen during the 1990s and hence they are hardly likely to have their assets frozen”
    ___________________-

    “front men for Western interests stolen”? It’s the Western interests that have been stolen?

    If your thoughts are pissy, your way of expressing them is shitty.

    PS – brush up on the use of apostrophes as well.

  135. Resident Dissident

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:29 pm

    “I believe many of the oligarch’s are front men for Western interests stolen during the 1990s”

    Some children believe in fairies and Father Christmas as well – take my word they were stealing on their own behalf as well. It is pretty well documented that many of the oligarchs were linked to various bits of the KGB and nomenklatura.

  136. Interesting question: is there a challenger to Putin? Does anyone know?

  137. Craig; I will ask yet again. DId you override a mod’s decision to pre-moderate certain unserious posters?

  138. Sofia Kibo Noh

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:34 pm

    “This war did not spring up on our land, this war was brought upon us by the children of the Great Father who came to take our land without a price, and who, in our land, do a great many evil things… This war has come from robbery – from the stealing of our land.” Spotted Tail

    The children of the Great Father have consistently brought war and misery since the conquest of the American continent began. The only change is that, in the age of “Full Spectrum Dominance”, they believe it’s their “manifest destiny” to dominate the world.

    Is it not rational for Russians to mobilize (peacefully so far) to defend their communities and culture from a US that clearly is intent on surrounding it?

    Also why so much focus on Putin? Does anyone really believe most Ukrainians of any ethnicity ever wanted to be ruled by $5 billion worth of fascists?

    If Putin didn’t exist the Russian nation would have to invent him.

  139. What? ‘Sofia’ is that expected to make any sense?

  140. Ben (not that I always agree with you): “Yeah. Russia has managed to be the worst case of Socialism and Capitalism. It’s like siblings having children” – yes. Like China, and corporate communism. Have you read PJ’s Eat the Rich?

  141. ResDes & Uzbek in the UK, go on about Nationalism/Chauvinism in Russia, a country not even on the same page of as the rampaging US, the greatest empire the World has even had, in which Manifest Destiny & American Exceptionalism is indoctrinated into every sphere of an American’s life, leading to the pernicious patriotism of “My Country, Right or Wrong”; yet for them Russia & the Russians are the greatest problem effecting the world today.

    The last part of ResDes “A few thoughts”, where he mentions “real liberal interventionism” is of course the classic “Liberal Defence of Murder”, or alternatively “The Liberal Apology For Murder”.

  142. Sofia; I wish I could find the pic but there’s an old MAD magazine pic with a caption. Coolidge at a pow-wow complete with feathered headdress; smokes the peace pipe….

    “And the great white Father sends greetings along with congratulations to his Red borthers….Now you stinkin’ redskins get off my land”

  143. habbakuk: do you really think of it as ‘hobbled’?

  144. “Interesting question: is there a challenger to Putin? Does anyone know? ”

    There was, but they tend to end up getting shot, poisoned or sent to jail. Odd that.

  145. ” Have you read PJ’s Eat the Rich?”

    PJ O’Rourke? No. He’s not on my reading list.

  146. Oh , here we go again, Macky,as though he/she were not addressing a board hosted by one of the main spokespeople against violent murderous Western brutality. It’s extraordinary, or not.

  147. Well, Ben, as someone who also loves Hunter, try it.

    Kempe, yes, odd, isn’t it.

  148. Sofia Kibo Noh

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:56 pm

    Technicolour. 11 43pm

    “What? ‘Sofia’ is that expected to make any sense?”

    Well, yes.

    Maybe you could tell me which bit you don’t understand and I’ll try to explain with short words.

    In the meantime it’s good to see the Russian sense of humour has not fallen victim to the crippling Western response.

    ”The State Duma has passed a motion suggesting that the US and EU extend the freshly introduced sanctions to all Russian MPs.”

    http://rt.com/politics/russian-duma-sanctions-crimea-594/

    Aren’t they supposed to be taking this a bit more seriously?

  149. Well, try making sense of this:

    The children of the Great Father have consistently brought war and misery since the conquest of the American continent began.

    I’m off to bed, so fine if it takes you until the morning.

  150. Start with: who is the ‘Great Father’ please.

  151. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:05 am

    Ben

    What is evident that in order to have better cases of both socialism and capitalism rule of law must be paramount. Both have been largely ignored in Russia whose society was brought up as paternalistic by submission to the highest authority (Czar, Leader – Vozhd, president) which was/is seen as major source of wisdom.

    Case with shortage of law and financial capitalism out of control in the west is yet another proof of this thesis.

  152. USdot.gov is the Great White Father, or whomever is in the Whitehouse.

  153. Technicolour; “murderous Western brutality”

    Well done, you finally got a link you can use, shame it’s missed the moment !

    As to my comment, it was very clearly stated as to whom it was concerning !

  154. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:07 am

    Technicolour.

    In sorry to have underestimated you ignorance.

    In this context the “Great Father” is the US president. I know I invited you to ask but next time you have a dumb question like that please ask you grandchildren.

  155. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:09 am

    For the sake of humanity, can we please stop quoting RT as a source for at least as long as dust over Crimea sets? Is not it obvious that this is one of the major channels of official Russian propaganda to the western audience?

    Quoting RT now (to me) would be like quoting CNN during Iraq invasion.

  156. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:10 am

    Ben.

    Re “Great Father’s” identity.

    Thanks for getting in before me.

    How can someone ask that with a straight face?

  157. Craig seems to be coming round to a sensible viewoint at last, thoug I differ with this:

    ‘In fact of course Russia was right over Kosovo, and thus is wrong over Crimea.’

    Firstly, the fact that putin was right over Kosovo hasn’t altered the facts on the ground. I believe that Putin was using the much stronger argument regarding International Law. i.e. if there is not equality under the law, then there is no law.

    In other words, it has become a kind of prisoner’s dilemma – if one party cheats and gets away with it then it is rational for all other parties to cheat too.

    As regards Ukraine getting back its nukes, then I can only say that I am eternally grateful that sane heads signed the 1994 memoorandum – perhaps they envisaged a time when a near bankrupt Ukraine might be overcome by right-wing nationalist forces.
    I shudder to think how long the likes of Yarosh and Tyahnybok could resist pressing the button.

  158. Yes, of course, ‘Sofia’ – one minute we are exchanging serious views on the Shock Doctrine, and the next I am supposed to understand your esoteric and biased and frankly weird subtext. I get it now. Go

  159. USdot.gov is the Great White Father, or whomever is in the Whitehouse.

    In whose fucking wierd shit mindset?

  160. “In sorry to have underestimated you ignorance.”

    I feel, for the most part, it is intentional. The Innertubes is the most fantastic library is the World.

    No Dewey-Decimal system to fool with. No searching for that omni-digit cuneiform hyroglypheric.
    only to find it checked out.

    Instant gratification. It’s so 21st century.

  161. Craig,

    CNN (Domestic) just ran with that attack on the tv executive. The two-way between presenters went something like:

    Q: So it’s not as simple as ‘Putin bad guy, Ukranians good?’.
    A) No it’s not that simple. There are some really nasty people in the new Ukranian government.

    Then the closing comment: “It just goes to show not everyone the US gets into bed with is a good guy”

    Or that’s approximately what they said.

    Here’s the BBC story

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26653295

    The acting chief executive of Ukraine’s state broadcaster has been forced to sign a resignation letter – by MPs who broke into his office.

    The group of men, from the far-right Svoboda party, were angry with Oleksandr Panteleymonov’s decision to broadcast a ceremony from the Kremlin on Tuesday.

    It showed Russian President Putin signing a bill to make Ukraine’s Crimea region part of Russia.

    The MPs filmed themselves beating Mr Panteleymonov over the head until he gave in to their demands.

  162. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:16 am

    Macky

    I am not claiming that US/UK were/are on the right track when it comes to expansionist wars.

    I am saying that Russia is wrong at this very moment denying Ukraine it deserved sovereignty. I am convinced that after centuries of abuse, oppression and genocide Ukrainans deserve for once to decide their own fate.

    Why people like you think that just because US/UK can kill people Russia also have to be given green light? Those countries have less than 500 million population between them, what about the rest 6 billion? Do they have any rights? Can they PLEASE decide their own fate without being intimidated by one of these 3? Are you OK with that? or your MAD leftie doctrine only dictate you to stick to what is bad for US/UK is good for the rest? What a sh..ty doctrine is this?

  163. Eeergh. Out of here! (shakes slime off shoes)

  164. Sofia, Woah! Woah! You can’t link articles like that! 436 Russian MPs voting against having a good old gay party. Have they not heard of gay rights? My God we’ll be going back to the days when, as they used to tell me, “men were men, and women were glad of them.”

  165. Well, that was enlightening.

  166. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:22 am

    It is fascinating to call whomever is in white house white father when at present (and for the last 7 years) there have been mixed white-african american occupant in that house, with his wife – descendant of former slaves.

    MAD lefties are so limited by their cliché.

  167. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:24 am

    Technicolour. 12 13am

    What “wierd subtext”?

    US doctrine of “Full Spectrum Dominance” is easy to understand. The ensuing violence and misery can be clearly seen wherever this blighted empire sets up shop.

    See what historian William Blum has to say on the subject.

    http://williamblum.org/chapters/rogue-state/united-states-bombings-of-other-countries

  168. OMG ! Obama is whiter than I am, and I’m Irish/Scot/German/Blackfoot/Cherokee, so that makes me what, beige?

  169. Uzzie’s completely objective view of the Russians:

    “ruled by notion of Russian chauvinism. In fact because of this very notion it was always easy to manipulate Russians by their rulers. Russian were/are ready to sacrifice their lives for greatness of their nation. For Mother Russia they say.”

    I thought you were talking about the British Empire there for a moment or the French, Spanish, Ottoman, Roman, Zzzzzz….

    So tell us again Uzzie why you love the American empire?

  170. Now Uzbek declares the moral high ground with his American Studies 101, making him High Poobah of insider’s perspective. You have reached a new level of stupid, my good man. You may have some gravitas on your specialty, but you are not welcome to purge your prejudicial preferences on my home field.

  171. Squonk thanks for that knowledge that the BBC and CNN are starting to report more unbiasedly. They’ve got a lot of catching up to do. It would not surprise me if some evidence has come to light about what kind of nasties the US has crept into bed with.

  172. I sense progress. So I’m off to bed. Goodnight all.

  173. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:33 am

    DomesticExtremist

    I agree on that 1994 bluff was positive thing. But it will be very difficult now to convince any (newly declared or about to be declared) nuclear club members to give up their nukes for bluff of protection from any of the 3 bluffers.

    I bid that Nursultan Nazarbaev is bating his elbows now for buying the same sh..t from the same bluffers + China.

  174. Ben

    Sorry I don’t follow your question. 99% of the time I just let the mods get on with it.

  175. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:38 am

    John Goss

    Or quite contrary. As Mr Murray noticed BBC is probably trying not to scare russian oligarchs (more their money of course) from unrealistically expensive London property markets.

    BBC for instance still keeps calling Russian military men in Crimea as pro-Russian forces. Even after Putin’s conversation with Crimea Tatar leader at which Putin assured him that these men mean no harm to Crimea Tatars. Now if you were NOT in charge of 15.000 armed men, would you assure someone that they mean to harm to him?

  176. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:41 am

    Ben

    You can play that racial card as much as you want. The fact remains that it is at least stupid to call mixed race person white father.

    Times change cliché remains.

  177. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:43 am

    Uzbek. Here’s a good read that will clarify why for many people, over many generations the US state has been an unmitigated disaster.

    “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West” by Dee Brown

    The author uses council records, autobiographies, and firsthand descriptions, Brown allows great chiefs and warriors of the Dakota, Ute, Sioux, Cheyenne, and other tribes to tell us in their own words of the series of battles, massacres, and broken treaties that finally left them and their people demoralized and decimated and .a whole continent in the grip of a foreign kleptocracy.

  178. Uzbek in the UK; “I am not claiming that US/UK were/are on the right track when it comes to expansionist wars.”

    I didn’t say you were; just pointing out there’s a huge wild forest fire raging compared to the little bonfire you seem to exclusively focus on.

    “I am saying that Russia is wrong at this very moment denying Ukraine it deserved sovereignty. I am convinced that after centuries of abuse, oppression and genocide Ukrainans deserve for once to decide their own fate.”

    But they are not ! What they are doing is objecting to a violent coup that put into power not just fascists, but Western stooge fascists who will bring NATO missiles right up to their border. The realpolitik context is strangely missing in the MSM narrative.

    “Why people like you think that just because US/UK can kill people Russia also have to be given green light? Those countries have less than 500 million population between them, what about the rest 6 billion? Do they have any rights? Can they PLEASE decide their own fate without being intimidated by one of these 3? Are you OK with that? or your MAD leftie doctrine only dictate you to stick to what is bad for US/UK is good for the rest? What a sh..ty doctrine is this?”

    If you think I’m giving anybody a green light to kill anybody, then not only are you misreading, misapprehending, misrepresenting, but arguing with a “MAD Leftie” Macky that only exists in your imagination.

  179. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:44 am

    Ben

    Why did you call me stupid? Just because I disagree with you and do not sing God Bless Mr Putin?

  180. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:51 am

    Uncle Craig.

    Apologies for not coming back with a link to another photo of Yats giving that salute at another gig. I searched for a while but couldn’t find it. I still don’t think he was doing his T’ai Chi on the podium.

  181. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:53 am

    Macky

    “I didn’t say you were; just pointing out there’s a huge wild forest fire raging compared to the little bonfire you seem to exclusively focus on.”

    Unlike you I lived under Russian rule and I know what it is. What seems like little bonfire to you is more than volcanic explosion to me. My home region and my home country could well be next in line for Russian fire power projection. I really DO NOT want that to happen.

    “But they are not ! What they are doing is objecting to a violent coup that put into power not just fascists, but Western stooge fascists who will bring NATO missiles right up to their border. The realpolitik context is strangely missing in the MSM narrative.”

    According to CanSpeccy (another leftie) it would be like suicide for Ukraine. Do you really believe in all out nuclear war with Russia? It did not happen even under Regan why would it happen now? What I see it Russia is 1.projecting its power, 2.intimidating former colony, 3. grabbed land from former colony by staging selective Russian only popular vote, 4. sending signal to other former colonies that whether or not they like their sovereignty is now limited to Moscow’s approval of their foreign policy.

    “If you think I’m giving anybody a green light to kill anybody, then not only are you misreading, misapprehending, misrepresenting, but arguing with a “MAD Leftie” Macky that only exists in your imagination.”

    My English is not brilliant but I think you just DID by comparing Russian intervention to Crimea to little bonfire on which (if I interpret you right) I should not be focusing.

  182. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:00 am

    Sofia Kibo Noh

    Thank you I shall read that book. As mentioned earlier Myth of American Diplomacy made effect on me and made me rethink Manifest Destiny and Monroe Doctrine. I advise you to read this book. It start with explanation of of revisionist history of US is impressive on its own account.

    But extermination of American Indians is not an excuse to let Russia to rip Ukraine (and others to follow) apart, not to me at least.

    I am very sensitive to cases of Russian Chauvinism and unceremonious projection of Russian power onto its former colonies. Russia to me have more than enough land surface under its constitutional sovereign control. Let them manage it properly first and it might be that former colonies will look at it with respect and not fear.

  183. From Putin’s speech. An interesting bit I thought.

    http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/6889

    I also want to address the people of Ukraine. I sincerely want you to understand us: we do not want to harm you in any way, or to hurt your national feelings. We have always respected the territorial integrity of the Ukrainian state, incidentally, unlike those who sacrificed Ukraine’s unity for their political ambitions. They flaunt slogans about Ukraine’s greatness, but they are the ones who did everything to divide the nation. Today’s civil standoff is entirely on their conscience. I want you to hear me, my dear friends. Do not believe those who want you to fear Russia, shouting that other regions will follow Crimea. We do not want to divide Ukraine; we do not need that. As for Crimea, it was and remains a Russian, Ukrainian, and Crimean-Tatar land.

    I repeat, just as it has been for centuries, it will be a home to all the peoples living there. What it will never be and do is follow in Bandera’s footsteps!

    Crimea is our common historical legacy and a very important factor in regional stability. And this strategic territory should be part of a strong and stable sovereignty, which today can only be Russian. Otherwise, dear friends (I am addressing both Ukraine and Russia), you and we – the Russians and the Ukrainians – could lose Crimea completely, and that could happen in the near historical perspective. Please think about it.

    Let me note too that we have already heard declarations from Kiev about Ukraine soon joining NATO. What would this have meant for Crimea and Sevastopol in the future? It would have meant that NATO’s navy would be right there in this city of Russia’s military glory, and this would create not an illusory but a perfectly real threat to the whole of southern Russia. These are things that could have become reality were it not for the choice the Crimean people made, and I want to say thank you to them for this.

    But let me say too that we are not opposed to cooperation with NATO, for this is certainly not the case. For all the internal processes within the organisation, NATO remains a military alliance, and we are against having a military alliance making itself at home right in our backyard or in our historic territory. I simply cannot imagine that we would travel to Sevastopol to visit NATO sailors. Of course, most of them are wonderful guys, but it would be better to have them come and visit us, be our guests, rather than the other way round.

  184. Uzbek in the UK; “What seems like little bonfire to you is more than volcanic explosion to me”

    Yes I understand to those affected, fire is fire; however in the wider context of comparative fire damage, I am mystified by those not actually in the path of any fire, insisting that the bonfire is worse than the forest fire.

    “Do you really believe in all out nuclear war with Russia? It did not happen even under Regan why would it happen now?”

    No need for actual war. All that is needed for US hegemony over Russia is for the complete encirclement by NATO missiles.

    “What I see it Russia is 1.projecting its power, 2.intimidating former colony, 3. grabbed land from former colony by staging selective Russian only popular vote, 4. sending signal to other former colonies that whether or not they like their sovereignty is now limited to Moscow’s approval of their foreign policy.”

    I see a Russia reacting because of fearing ending up looted like Greece, or destroyed like Yugoslavia/Iraq.

    “My English is not brilliant but I think you just DID by comparing Russian intervention to Crimea to little bonfire on which (if I interpret you right) I should not be focusing.”

    No, you are not interpreting me correctly; see above first point.

  185. @Uzbek in the UK 20 Mar, 2014 – 12:09 am
    “For the sake of humanity, can we please stop quoting RT as a source for at least as long as dust over Crimea sets? Is not it obvious that this is one of the major channels of official Russian propaganda to the western audience? Quoting RT now (to me) would be like quoting CNN during Iraq invasion.”

    A few day ago RT America Television did a clever and refreshing thing. One of their programs cheerfully admitted that they are indeed selling pro-Kremlin propaganda.

    They then proceeded with short clips interviewing reporters and editors who had worked (now ex) for various US news outlets. They explained what happens to anyone who annoys the administration in power, particularly the current White House.
    Reporters and editors are besieged by phone calls with demands accompanied by implied threats.

    The same applies to anyone reporting unfavourably on powerful corporate interests.

    It’s the first time I recall anyone plainly confessing to propaganda, not even the old Pravda, which most obviously was, but maintained the fiction of Truth.

    RT’s point was everything is biased news; pick whatever agrees with your view of the world.

    It would be nice if Western media, CNN, Fox, BBC, NYT, etc. finally dropped any pretense of neutrality. They’re all mouthpieces for some faction or another, depending upon the issue, and are especially dangerous when they all speak with one voice.

  186. BrianFujisan

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:22 am

    Such Gross ignorance…. Re Great Father Chief’s Ect fking Cetra…

    Almost ALL the natives spoke in this way….

    i have posted images of my own work online… in relation to this chief’s Sad words -

    At last I was granted permission to come to Washington and bring my friend Yellow Bull and our interpreter with me. I am glad I came. I have shaken hands with a good many friends, but there are some things I want to know which no one seems able to explain. I cannot understand how the Government sends a man out to fight us, as it did General Miles, and then breaks his word. Such a government has something wrong about it. I cannot understand why so many chiefs are allowed to talk so many different ways, and promise so many different things. I have seen the Great Father Chief [President Hayes]; the Next Great Chief [Secretary of the Interior]; the Commissioner Chief; the Law Chief; and many other law chiefs [Congressmen] and they all say they are my friends, and that I shall have justice, but while all their mouths talk right I do not understand why nothing is done for my people. I have heard talk and talk but nothing is done. Good words do not last long unless they amount to something. Words do not pay for my dead people. They do not pay for my country now overrun by white men. They do not protect my father’s grave. They do not pay for my horses and cattle. Good words do not give me back my children. Good words will not make good the promise of your war chief, General Miles. Good words will not give my people a home where they can live in peace and take care of themselves. I am tired of talk that comes to nothing. It makes my heart sick when I remember all the good words and all the broken promises. There has been too much talking by men who had no right to talk. Too many misinterpretations have been made; too many misunderstandings have come up between the white men and the Indians. If the white man wants to live in peace with the Indian he can live in peace. There need be no trouble. Treat all men alike. Give them the same laws. Give them all an even chance to live and grow. All men were made by the same Great Spirit Chief. They are all brothers. The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. You might as well expect all rivers to run backward as that any man who was born a free man should be contented penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases. If you tie a horse to a stake, do you expect he will grow fat? If you pen an Indian up on a small spot of earth and compel him to stay there, he will not be contented nor will he grow and prosper. I have asked some of the Great White Chiefs where they get their authority to say to the Indian that he shall stay in one place, while he sees white men going where they please. They cannot tell me.

    Chief Josehp.

  187. “i have posted images of my own work online”

    Brian; What are you talking about? Where online?

  188. BrianFujisan

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:29 am

    NR

    RE….Rt

    Behind the coverage of Wahl’s dramatic protest, a cadre of neoconservatives was celebrating a public relations coup. Desperate to revive the Cold War, head off further cuts to the defense budget and restore the legitimacy they lost in the ruins of Iraq, the tightknit group of neoconservative writers and stewards had opened up a new PR front through Wahl’s resignation. And they succeeded with no shortage of help from an ossified media establishment struggling to maintain credibility in an increasingly anarchic online news environment. With isolated skeptics branded as useful idiots for Putin, the scene has been kept clean of neoconservative fingerprints, obscuring their interest in Wahl’s resignation and the broader push to deepen tensions with Russia.

    The story began at 5:07 p.m. Eastern time on March 5.

    PR From PNAC 2.0

    It was a full 19 minutes before Wahl resigned. Inside the offices of the Foreign Policy Initiative, a neoconservative think tank in Washington D.C., a staffer logged on to the group’s Twitter account to announce the following:

    “#WordOnTheStreet says that something big might happen on RT in about 20-25 minutes.”

    Then, at 5:16, exactly 10 minutes before Wahl would quit on air, FPI tweeted:

    “#WordOnTheStreet says you’re really going to want to tune in to RT: http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/ #SomethinBigMayBeGoingDown”

    Up until two minutes before Wahl’s resignation, FPI took to Twitter again to urge its followers to tune in to RT.

    And finally, at 5:26 p.m., at the very moment Wahl quit, FPI’s Twitter account broke the news: “RT Anchor RESIGNS ON AIR. She ‘cannot be part of a network that whitewashes the actions of Putin.’ ”

    The tweets from FPI suggested a direct level of coordination between Wahl and the neoconservative think tank. Several calls to FPI for this story were not answered.

    Just over an hour later, an exclusive interview with Wahl appeared at The Daily Beast. It was authored by James Kirchick, a 31-year-old writer whose work has appeared in publications from the neoconservative Commentary to the liberal Israeli paper Haaretz.

    Kirchick acknowledged having been in contact with Wahl since August, but cast himself as a passive bystander to the spectacle, claiming that they merely “stayed in touch periodically over the past 6 months, and I always encouraged her to follow her conscience in making a decision about her professional future.”

    Kirchick wrote that by quitting, Wahl paid “the price real reporters—not Russian-government funded propagandists—have to pay if they are concerned with quaint notions like objectivity and the truth.”

    Later that evening, Kirchick tweeted a photo of himself with Wahl, calling it a “Freedom selfie.” The two had apparently gathered to celebrate.

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/how_cold_war-hungry_neocons_stage_managed_liz_wahls_resignation_20140319

  189. “It would be nice if Western media, CNN, Fox, BBC, NYT, etc. finally dropped any pretense of neutrality”

    NR-Well said. The problem is that objective reporting is what journalism schools teach. Objectivity is not the issue and the Network’s know this and proceed to fill the void in newsreaders heads with exactly that information which will lead to continued employment. Of course this is applied with some deniability, but the subliminal message is clear to the lizard brain—survival !.

    Objectivity, as a thing in itself, is an oxymoron. But it is how students are taught. The high ideal, as it were. What they don’t teach is context because that’s another class closed for the semester.

    You can’t be an effective reporter if you ask a question of the protaganist, and then the same question to the antagonist, without the historical follow up to past stances on the question.

    This is why we can’t have nice things.

  190. Craig; ” He stated that the Crimean and Kosovo cases were highly analogous, but then used that to justify Russia’s action in Crimea, despite the fact that Russia has always maintained the NATO Kosovo intervention was illegal(and still refuses to recognize Kosovo). In fact of course Russia was right over Kosovo, and thus is wrong over Crimea.”

    Seems he did the opposite to me;

    “We keep hearing from the United States and Western Europe that Kosovo is some special case. What makes it so special in the eyes of our colleagues? It turns out that it is the fact that the conflict in Kosovo resulted in so many human casualties. Is this a legal argument? The ruling of the International Court says nothing about this. This is not even double standards; this is amazing, primitive, blunt cynicism. One should not try so crudely to make everything suit their interests, calling the same thing white today and black tomorrow. According to this logic, we have to make sure every conflict leads to human losses.”

    http://rt.com/news/putin-address-ten-quotes-778/

  191. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:42 am

    Uzbek.

    Re “The Myth of American Diplomacy”. Thanks. Yes, a good look at why US culture nurtures a violent relationship with the world.

    As for the discussion of events in Ukraine I suppose the bottom line for me is that the people there didn’t choose to be ruled by ultra-right, foreign sponsored thugs in Kiev. If I was a Ukrainian in Crimea would I choose as the lesser of two evils?

    It’s stretching credibility a bit too far when we are expected to believe that the violent userpers of an elected government have more legality than an a population casting votes .

    All this begs the question of what the response of the Russian state would be if the regional governments in Chechnya or Dagestan held a similar referendum.
    Casting their votes.

    Back to the instigator of the present mess, can you imagine the US managing a bloodless reaction if Russia had organised a coup in Mexico?

  192. Ruth

    Miliband said today that UK national debt has increased under this government by 40%. By 2008 the bankers had stolen all the capital at their disposal, and it has now been topped up again with highly-leveraged funny-money QE. The 40% extra borrowing showing on the books is just a credit card for keeping the UK head above water.

    If oligarchs were used as fronts to launder Thatcher-era bankster-fraud, who is being used to launder Brown-era fraud?
    And who owns and where is the real money? We are going to have months and months of blame-games about the economy before the election, so we might as well recognise now that both political parties borrow equally recklessly, and the purpose of Western democracy is purely for the benefit of a global elite.

    I have not used any of my 944L tax code this year. Most people are up to their eyeballs in debt, with no sign of remission even in an election year. At least Miliband is prepared to state the reality.

  193. @BrianFujisan @Ben
    Brian, thanks for background on the Wahl story. Did not know that.

    I think it was a week after the initial riots in Kiev that CNN, Fox and RT were still running endless loops of the original rioters on the left of the screen. Essentially the same footage except RT featured more people running around on fire while the other two concentrated on burning tires. Not one explained it was old video. (Same as Syria gas attacks.)

    Right side box had commentators. CNN and Fox of course declared the rioters were freedom fighters while RT of course said they were neo-Nazi thugs.

    If anything RT is easier on the eyes. Less of a pinball machine.
    CNN and Fox now have from two to four boxes on screen(commentators or videos), plus a radar sweep as the background, plus the current breaking news story and a news ticker running at the bottom with unrelated stories, along with their network IDs. Fox adds a annoying permanent flashing, red “News Alert” along the bottom.

    What a casual viewer, who might watch a half-hour or full hour, makes of all this I don’t know. A worthwhile study would do MRI studies on subjects watching it all.

    Wait until the networks discover how to increase ratings by adding a box with endless YouTube cat videos.

  194. BrianFujisan

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:03 am

  195. No mention of the Zionists behind the Ukraine putsch?

  196. There’s something very subtle and intriguing going on.

    Putin is pressing the NATO bloc to argue in terms of the law. He’s gone over the head of the CIA regime to do it, in the NY Times and in a speech that anglophones can understand. For the first time in decades, the US population is learning the letter of the law. That’s revolutionary, when you consider the lawlessness of US doctrine, ‘realists’ and neocons competing to piss on the law. The American public has been kept in complete ignorance of the law. They don’t know what’s in the UN Charter or the International Bill of Human Rights or the Rome Statute. They don’t know that peace is the law. They don’t know that war’s above the president’s pay grade, and that everything between self-defense and pacific settlement of disputes is the prerogative not of the US but of the UNSC. They don’t know what non-interference means. Three-quarters of us want our government to play by the rules, and Putin’s teaching them that their instincts are sound, that international norms are not just a good idea, they’re the law.

    Meanwhile, the Human Rights Committee is using non-discrimination as an entering wedge for all the rights the US government denies its people. The US government has been running from its most imperative duties by refusing to sign the CESCR, even though that’s a requirement for any sovereign state. The US regime doles out the rights to education, health, housing and all the means of life in discriminatory fashion, offering it to non-elites only as bait to make them take the hook of debt peonage. The Committee knows the world consensus – that states can’t pick and choose your rights – and they’re enforcing that rule.

    And very gradually, the world is undercutting US official impunity. Article 8 bis will make criminals of the people who start wars. Individual jurisdictions are moving to extradite and prosecute US torturers and murderers. State responsibility for internationally wrongful acts is perfecting the Versailles Treaty as international criminal law is perfecting the Nuremberg Tribunal, so that US government criminals will have to take their medicine and the US government will have to pay for what it breaks.

    It’s working. When’s the last time Congress declared war? They let the presidential puppet ruler take the fall, but he’s afraid to come out and say what he’s acquiesced to. With no one willing to take responsibility, CIA is increasingly desperate to conceal its crimes. The US government’s mafiya omerta’s breaking down.

  197. Kessler finds Four Putin Pinocchios & i spy about an equal number in Kessler’s fact-checking:

    19 March – WaPo – Glenn Kessler: Fact Checking Vladimir Putin’s speech on Crimea
    A coup d’état is obviously in the eye of the beholder, but Putin, without meaning to, actually is describing the role of the former Russian-backed government when he refers to terror and murder during the uprisings.
    Putin also exaggerates the role of right-wing, nationalistic factions, though it is true that a party with a neofascist past and other ultra-nationalistic elements are now part of the government. (The party claims it has mellowed, but the World Jewish Congress has warned about it.) The Guardian newspaper, in a long report on this issue, notes that one revolutionary killed by a government sniper “was an unlikely fascist,” adding that “he was Jewish.”…
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/19/fact-checking-vladimir-putins-speech-on-crimea/

  198. it’s been a long, long time coming…

    13 Dec, 2013: Remarks by Victoria Nuland
    Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine…
    http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2013/12/20131216289031.html#axzz2wTa2JUuR

    Wikipdia: Kateryna Yushchenko
    She is a former U.S. State Department official. She worked as a special assistant to the Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights and Humanitarian Affairs. She holds a bachelor degree in International Economics from the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University (1982), and an MBA from the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business (1986).
    She later worked in the White House in the Office of Public Liaison during the administration of Ronald Reagan. Subsequently, she worked at the U.S. Treasury in the executive secretary’s office during the administration of George H. W. Bush. After leaving that position, she was on the staff of the Joint Economic Committee of the United States Congress. After Ukraine declared its freedom, she was a co-founder and the vice-president of Ukraine-USA Foundation. She was also the director of Pylyp Orlyk Institute. In 1993, she joined KPMG Peat Marwick/Barents Group as a consultant in its Bank Training Program and Country Manager, where she met Viktor Yushchenko, whom she subsequently married. She left her job in August 2000, when she was expecting her second child…
    Opponents of her husband Viktor Yushchenko criticized her for remaining a U.S. citizen. During the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election campaign,Chumachenko – Yushchenko was accused of exerting the influence of the U.S. government on her husband’s decisions, as an employee of the U.S. government or even a Central Intelligence Agency agent. She had earlier been accused by Russian television journalist Mikhail Leontyev of leading a U.S. project to help Yushchenko seize power in Ukraine; in January 2002, she won a libel case against him (citation needed)…
    Ukraine’s pro-government Inter television channel repeated Leontyev’s allegations in 2001, but in January 2003 she won a libel case against the channel as well (no citation provided)…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kateryna_Yushchenko

  199. WHAT’S REALLY GOING ON IN VENEZUELA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVdel510hRk

    Venezuela: Headline News 19 March 2014
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7E5sIZuT0M

  200. 18 March – Reuters: Libyan Rebel Accuses US Navy of Piracy
    A Libyan rebel leader accused the United States on Tuesday of behaving like pirates after U.S. naval forces seized an oil-laden tanker that had sailed from a rebel-held port in the east of the chaotic North African state.
    Ibrahim Jathran’s defiant speech dampened hopes of a quick peaceful settlement with Libya’s central government to end a blockage of three oil ports his men took over in summer to press for eastern autonomy and a greater share of oil revenues.
    The conflict reflects wider chaos in Libya where the government has been struggling to rein in militias that helped overthrow dictator Muammar Gaddafi in 2011 but kept their guns to become powerful political players…
    “We will continue our fight for our right to dream of a better tomorrow for our children and families,” said Jathran, calling for the United Nations and Arab League to intervene to help the people of eastern Libya…
    Western powers, worried that Libya might fracture or slide deeper into anarchy, have been training Libyan armed forces and cajoling conflicting parties in government to work together, to little avail.
    But diplomats say the nascent army would struggle in any case to take on Jathran’s men, who helped overthrow Gaddafi. He defected last year as head of a state oil protection force, taking with him his armed men…
    Oil exports have fallen to 100,000-120,000 barrels per day (bpd) in the last two weeks, acting oil minister Omar Shakmak told reporters. Exports have been well below capacity of around 1.25 million bpd since July.
    Shakmak added that the El Sharara oilfield in the southwest, which can produce 340,000 bpd, was still shut down by protesters from a state security force making financial demands…
    http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/Libyan-Rebel-Accuses-US-Navy-of-Piracy-2014-03-18/

    let no-one suggest the US/NATO/allies had anything whatsoever to do with the above – Amb Jones is full of it:

    17 Feb: Libya: Statement By Ambassador Deborah K. Jones On the Third Anniversary of Libya’s February 17 Revolution
    As I look around this magnificent square, so filled with the remnants of Libya’s historic past – and signs of its transitional present, I am reminded that our shared history is long; our interactions date back to the late 18th century when the newly independent, revolutionary United States of America sent trading vessels to these shores. Indeed, Libyan place names, such as “Tripoli,” figure prominently in our own national narrative.
    Much has happened since that time, and since February 17, 2011. Not least, Libya’s sons and daughters have taken the first steps on a long journey down a difficult path – the transition from dictatorship to democracy…
    The United States will continue to work with Libya’s democratically elected government and institutions in support of these efforts, and stands by the Libyan people, in friendship and in alignment with the principles of liberty and human dignity that bind us together…
    The Libya that emerges is in your hands, but the U.S. and our international partners stand with you as you join the community of nations, and this cooperation is already bearing fruit…
    Along with the UK, Italy and Turkey, we are helping Libya build a General Purpose Force. The United States has pledged to train up to 8,000 Libyan soldiers from recruits hailing from across Libya, and to turn them into a force capable of protecting Libya’s institutions and national assets.
    Government to government, we have strengthened our partnership through bilateral agreements on cultural preservation, higher education, law enforcement and security cooperation, and trade and investment.
    In the last year alone, our two nations traded over three billion dollars’ worth of goods, marking a nearly fourfold increase since 2011. And as that trade grows, an increasing number of U.S. and international companies are returning to Libya to begin or resume work suspended since the revolution, and have begun creating thousands of jobs and injecting foreign direct investment into the economy…
    You have already made clear your rejection of illegitimate attempts to derail your democratic journey. Your revolutionary American friends wish you well and stand by to support your ongoing efforts to build the new Libya with the same courage, unflagging effort, patience and enduring hope that gave you a winning team in South Africa. Libya, yes you can!
    Elf mabruk mara thania, wa fi eman Allah.”
    http://allafrica.com/stories/201402181329.html

  201. israel “retaliates”:

    19 March: CNN: Israel retaliates in Syria after roadside bomb attack against Israeli troops
    Israel has warned Syria’s government that any aggression against Israeli citizens will be met with force, as a roadside bomb attack which injured Israeli troops prompted airstrikes on Syrian targets…
    Netanyahu: “Our policy is very clear: We attack those who attack us.”…
    Israeli forces responded to the blast with artillery fire aimed at Syrian military targets across the frontier, it said. This was followed by airstrikes early Wednesday.
    “We will not tolerate any violation of our sovereignty and attacks against our soldiers and civilians, and we will act unwaveringly and with strength against all those that are acting against us, at every time and every place,” said Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon.
    “We see the Assad regime as responsible for what is going on in its territory, and if it continues to cooperate with terror organizations that are trying to attack Israel, we will continue to extract a heavy price from him, in a way which will make him regret his actions.”…
    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/19/world/meast/israel-syria-violence/

    Israel is “under siege”:

    19 March: Front Page: P. David Hornick: Israel Under Siege as Nuke Talks Open
    But if Washington was upset by Yaalon’s latest words on Iran, it could hardly take comfort from a report in Haaretz on Wednesday that Netanyahu and Yaalon had ordered the Israeli army to prepare for a possible strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities in 2014…
    Unlike the Western diplomats launching yet another round of talks in Vienna this week with a brutal regime, Israel does not have the luxury of living in a fantasy world…
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/davidhornik/israel-under-siege-as-nuke-talks-open/

    how many times has Israel bombed Syria during the current conflict? four, five, six? have they been sanctioned by the UN? the US? the EU? what if they attack Iran?

  202. some guys have all the luck -

    19 March – Reuters – Exclusive: The mysterious journey of the Libya oil tanker
    A Cypriot police source said two Israelis and a Senegalese who flew into Cyprus by Learjet and took a charter vessel toward the tanker were detained for questioning on Saturday on suspicion of attempting to buy the cargo, which Libya considers stolen.
    The source said the men, two of whom had diplomatic passports – one from Senegal and one from a central African country – were freed after a court declined to issue an arrest warrant and the men then left for Tel Aviv.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-libya-tanker-identity-idUSBREA2I19K20140319

  203. Oddie Your last two posts for which thanks.

    1.Israel knows no law as we know and is never subjected to any sanctions. The Golan Heights are stolen land.

    2.The story of the Morning Glory is worthy of a film script. Noted that the two anonymous Israelis slipped back to Tel Aviv.

  204. Ben Further to the overnight discussion, here is a photo of Coolidge in a feathered headdress. 1927.

    http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/95500721/

  205. New report reveals how ‘American neocons’ stage attacks against alternative media

    March 20, 2014 04:22

    One of the neocons being Kagan (PNAC), Nuland’s husband.

    See how they work.
    http://rt.com/usa/neocons-stage-attack-alternative-media-965/

  206. Andy,

    I liked your post at 9.32. It was also a good and interesting article that you linked to and I would recommend all to read it. It demonstrates what a mess this whole thing is, the problems caused when unitary states/countries/federations like the U.S.S.R. break up creating national borders where once merely administrative ones existed and what fools Western governments were to start messing about with it. It was all complicated enough before some bright spark decided it would be a bit of a wheeze to engage in a tug-o-war with Moscow using Ukraine as the rope.

    So, while there may be qualitative similarities between Russian hypocrisy and breaking of International Law (though I’ve never understood why the Crimean referendum was “illegal” given that it was called by the Crimean government) and that of the West, there is no quantitative comparison at all. Crimea was clearly part of Russia in all but the matter of a line on the map and now that anomaly has been corrected; big deal.

    Furthermore, the “occupation” of Crimea by Russia wasn’t preceded by the hideous bombing campaigns that N.A.T.O. is so fond of and Russia’s action was re-active, not pro-active. It was a response to a decade and a half of murderous and illegal interventions around the world by Washington and its puppets and the recent violent coup in Kiev. Was there anyone who didn’t expect it?

  207. Knobkerry

    I am not with anyone, I am just me. I like to think that’s my charm. “If you are not with us you’re against us”. Are you channeling George W Bush?

  208. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 8:57 am

    Oddie

    “it’s been a long, long time coming…

    13 Dec, 2013: Remarks by Victoria Nuland
    Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine…3

    ___________________

    Not a long time coming on this blog, though.

    I posted that verbatim extract over a week ago … and then posted it again (all you have to do is listen to the video and use pen and paper).

  209. Reminds me of what Basil was thinking about Hitler in that episode of Ponty Pyithon where he kept telling himself not to mention the war to that German visitor, only to keep doing so.

    Yes THF, its because nothing bigger has ever happened in the wirters life and one must perpetuate this feeling for its multpile uses today. How can one make a point about dastard behaviour when one can’t throw in a little Hitler spice with the porridge, well portioned, off course.

    Thanks for going through Putins speech with a toothcombe Craig. I can report that activists from the eaqstern Ukraine are gathering support on British football supporters fancine websites.

    http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/1/3058327/ShowPost.aspx#3058327

    This one, Sheva, does not like to be confronted with Yatsenyuks present evasive actions, or be challenged on the issue of fascist supporters. S/he proclaims to be middle class, well connected and being able to sample the warm winters in the UK if and when s/he likes.
    I asked what s/he thinks of your Putin translation, who knows, s/he might want to upgrade to a political blog, we shall see.

  210. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:30 am

  211. Tarpit at 3.43 a.m.

    Welcome. Thank you for your enlightened comments, especially about adherence to the International Bill of Human Rights. Not everybody can recite them, much less live by them, but here is a summary. I should be interested if any of the Uncle Samophiles can see any to which the US adheres. Or even the UK. I occasionally get told my opinions are shameful. This is where the real shame lies.

    A summary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

    1. Everyone is free and we should all be treated in the same way.

    2. Everyone is equal despite differences in skin colour, sex, religion, language for example.

    3. Everyone has the right to life and to live in freedom and safety.

    4. No one has the right to treat you as a slave nor should you make anyone your slave.

    5. No one has the right to hurt you or to torture you.

    6. Everyone has the right to be treated equally by the law.

    7. The law is the same for everyone, it should be applied in the same way to all.

    8. Everyone has the right to ask for legal help when their rights are not respected.

    9. No one has the right to imprison you unjustly or expel you from your own country.

    10. Everyone has the right to a fair and public trial.

    11. Everyone should be considered innocent until guilt is proved.

    12. Every one has the right to ask for help if someone tries to harm you, but no-one can enter your home, open your letters or bother you or your family without a good reason.

    13. Everyone has the right to travel as they wish.

    14. Everyone has the right to go to another country and ask for protection if they are being persecuted or are in danger of being persecuted.

    15. Everyone has the right to belong to a country. No one has the right to prevent you from belonging to another country if you wish to.

    16. Everyone has the right to marry and have a family.

    17. Everyone has the right to own property and possessions.

    18. Everyone has the right to practise and observe all aspects of their own religion and change their religion if they want to.

    19. Everyone has the right to say what they think and to give and receive information.

    20. Everyone has the right to take part in meetings and to join associations in a peaceful way.

    21. Everyone has the right to help choose and take part in the government of their country.

    22. Everyone has the right to social security and to opportunities to develop their skills.

    23. Everyone has the right to work for a fair wage in a safe environment and to join a trade union.

    24. Everyone has the right to rest and leisure.

    25. Everyone has the right to an adequate standard of living and medical help if they are ill.

    26. Everyone has the right to go to school.

    27. Everyone has the right to share in their community’s cultural life.

    28. Everyone must respect the ‘social order’ that is necessary for all these rights to be available.

    29. Everyone must respect the rights of others, the community and public property.

    30. No one has the right to take away any of the rights in this declaration.

  212. Charles Frith

    The moderators modulate. A little bit of yesterday’s post can be fried up as bubble and squeak, but no crazy Zio-bangers and mash on the front page, setting off the optical smoke alarms with vizible zio-speak.

  213. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    19 Mar, 2014 – 3:30 pm

    “Those population displacements are historical fact, Herby, which even you and your Eminent friends can’t wish away. So irony doesn’t come into it.”

    You obviously haven’t understood Habbabkuk.

    A clue: Israel

  214. Thanks John. Good reminder. I have a poster of that list on the wall here.

  215. It’s all very fascinating stuff.When I was growing up a carpenter close to where I lived referred to the hammer as an American screw driver.Many years later I began to see his point.
    The Americans do not care how they make their story/policy fit the picture.If the hole is square ,they simply thump harder till the peg goes through.They do not think for one second that they might want to remove it sometime.And I think that it is obvious with the Russian and US methods in Ukraine.
    Also obvious is that money is the driving factor behind the Western push in Ukraine.They want the resources and want to protect their newly won “riches” with their hitman NATO. Russia steals their glory and now greed is dictating the retreat.We’d better hang onto what we’ve got.
    Question is ,what have they got ? And do the Ukrainians left in Ukraine support it ?
    Thank you John.Many years since I read our rights. Does the UN still believe in its own charter I wonder ?

  216. Richard; “Furthermore, the “occupation” of Crimea by Russia wasn’t preceded by the hideous bombing campaigns that N.A.T.O. is so fond of and Russia’s action was re-active, not pro-active. It was a response to a decade and a half of murderous and illegal interventions around the world by Washington and its puppets and the recent violent coup in Kiev. Was there anyone who didn’t expect it?”

    On the contrary, many would have us believe it was a shocking unexpected, unprovoked display of aggressive hypocrisy, including a certain ex-Ambassador with real life experience of gritty Realpolitik !

    Kurtan; “Does the UN still believe in its own charter I wonder ?”

    They try to, but cannot help being used as plaything/tool of US imperialism;

    ““They act as they please: here and there, they use force against sovereign states, building coalitions based on the principle ‘If you are not with us, you are against us.’ To make this aggression look legitimate, they force the necessary resolutions from international organizations, and if for some reason this does not work, they simply ignore the UN Security Council and the UN overall.”

    rt.com/news/putin-address-ten-quotes-778/

  217. “Thanks John. Good reminder. I have a poster of that list on the wall here.”

    I got a little booklet Mary from Amnesty International. When I campaign on behalf of people like Talha Ahsan and Babar Ahmed I think of articles 2, 3, 6, 9, 10, 11, and 15. This is what has happened to my beloved country and its so-called friends.

  218. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:25 am

    My link above may be to a site the excrescences find unacceptable. Apologies. The article is from Business Insider;

    http://www.businessinsider.com/crimea-annexation-would-include-offshore-gas-reserves-2014-3

    “According to ExxonMobil and Ukrainian government announcements, between June and August of 2012, bids for Skifska were collected and assessed. LUKoil of Russia competed against a consortium of ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, OMV Pet rom of Romania, and the Ukrainian state-owned entity, Nadra Ukrainy. The Russian bid was rejected, and ExxonMobil (with a 40% operating stake) was the winner.

    The ExxonMobil reports have said no more than “we are working with our co-venturers and the Ukrainian government to finalize the Production Sharing Agreement. But almost two years later, no agreement has been signed. A source close to the company says the promised payment for Skifska, a signing bonus of $325 million, won’t be paid until there is a production sharing agreement. The reason that hasn’t been signed is that Exxon and the Ukrainian government have so far been unable to agree on production, investment, tax and royalty terms. The negotiations have continued over the past twelve months, but no money has been spent drilling at sea. The only data available to Exxon so far were provided by Stavitsky and Rudko during the bidding process.

    Officially, according to an Exxon spokesman, “we remain interested in the block.”

    Unofficially, Exxon has halted its negotiations with the Ukrainians “due to the political situation, but is pressing ahead with several Russian projects, including in Russian waters close to the Crimean Peninsula.” This was told to New York analysts last week, and reported in Dallas on March 5. According to the report, ExxonMobil senior vice president Andy Swiger conceded the company has bigger fish to fry in the Russian Arctic than off the Crimean shore. According to Swiger, the Crimean block “has active oil seeps and that drilling would begin in 2015.” According to ExxonMobil chairman and chief executive, Rex Tillerson: “In terms of our view of country risk, geopolitical risk, other than things like sanctions, we don’t see any new challenges out of the current situation [in Russia].”

    Plenty there for the conspiracy theorist, I’d say.

  219. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:26 am

    Mr Murray

    It was actually Lenin who first said that who are not with us is against us. Bush that this too, but certainly author rights belong to Lenin.

  220. John Goss @ 9:58 AM

    The UK doesn’t adhere to even half of the rights in that declaration. And this is done with the collusion of both left and right political parties and that of our head of state.

  221. Exactly Gaston.

  222. Uzbek 11.26 a.m.

    Jesus.

    http://biblehub.com/mark/9-40.htm

  223. You want your mistress-lapdancer’s assets to be frozen? You’re a hypocritical pervert!

  224. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:36 am

    John Goss and other MAD lefties

    Any comments to this from putin’s recent speech to the parliament on 18 March.

    You lefties who (supposedly) oppose tyranny how do you treat this direct threat that putin has made to the Russians who oppose his chauvinistic ideas? For your information legend of Fifth Column and national traitors have existed in Russia since inception of Russian Empire right through Soviet times to (as it is apparent) present days.

    “Obviously, we will encounter external opposition, but this is a decision that we need to make for ourselves. Are we ready to consistently defend our national interests, or will we forever give in, retreat to who knows where? Some Western politicians are already threatening us with not just sanctions but also the prospect of increasingly serious problems on the domestic front. I would like to know what it is they have in mind exactly: action by a fifth column, this disparate bunch of national traitors , or are they hoping to put us in a worsening social and economic situation so as to provoke public discontent? We consider such statements irresponsible and clearly aggressive in tone, and we will respond to them accordingly.

  225. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:40 am

    John Goss

    I take it you believe word to word of everything has written in Bible? I for instance question a LOT of quotations and description of miracles written in this and any other holly books.

    I quoted Lenin as there is documental evidence of him saying this? certainly not in Bible.

  226. John Goss@9:58am , I wonder what Frederick Lindemann
    who was Churchill’s best friend and Chief scientific adviser
    would have to say about the Human rights list.

    This is what Lindemann advocated in a lecture in the 1930`s

    “Surgery, mind control, and drug and hormone manipulations
    would one day allow humans to be fine-tuned for specific tasks.
    At the lower end of the race and class spectrum, he suggested,
    one could remove the ability to suffer or to feel ambition.
    This subclass would do all the unpleasant work and not once think
    of revolution or of voting rights. To perpetuate empires,
    he theorized, one need only remove the ability of slaves to see
    themselves as slaves.”

  227. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:46 am

    Uzbek:
    Don’t know if I qualify as a ‘MAD leftie’, but it occurs to me that what Putin, like any other politician, says, depends on who he is talking to. For instance, he probably doesn’t have Exxon in mind in this speech. With whom he is doing good business, and who will probably be putting as much of a brake on US sanctions as it can. Just to reiterate the choicest bit of something I’ve tried to draw attention to twice before, without apology -

    “Unofficially, Exxon has halted its negotiations with the Ukrainians “due to the political situation, but is pressing ahead with several Russian projects, including in Russian waters close to the Crimean Peninsula.” This was told to New York analysts last week, and reported in Dallas on March 5. According to the report, ExxonMobil senior vice president Andy Swiger conceded the company has bigger fish to fry in the Russian Arctic than off the Crimean shore. According to Swiger, the Crimean block “has active oil seeps and that drilling would begin in 2015.” According to ExxonMobil chairman and chief executive, Rex Tillerson: “In terms of our view of country risk, geopolitical risk, other than things like sanctions, we don’t see any new challenges out of the current situation [in Russia].””

    Exxon’s more than happy to go with a Russian Crimea, and knowing Exxon’s huge lobbying power, the US is stuck between freedom n’ democracy and congressional votes. No?

  228. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:48 am

    It looks like Putin is testing the west on declaration of purges in Russia.

    I bid MAD lefties will praise putin’s wisdom and his tough stance to the west. Who cares about Russians or others sacrificed for the name of anti-western hysteria.

    Clearly MAD western leftie’s approach.

  229. Ba'al Zevul (Occam's Disposable Razor)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:51 am

    Who cares about Russians or others sacrificed for the name of anti-western hysteria drilling rights? (fixed)

    No-one with any power to change things. Repeatedly proven in the Middle East.

  230. Dave Lawton, 20 Mar, 2014 – 11:46 am

    I wonder indeed. Your Lindemann quote comes very close to what Aaron Russo was told by Nathan Rothschild. I really believe that the increase in new high-security prisons in the US is part of that plan. Don’t want to say more just now.

  231. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:00 pm

    Ba’al Zevul (Occam’s Disposable Razor)

    You last post certainly does NOT qualify you as Mad lefties. That is what I like. Clear arguments, not brainwashed propaganda.

    I agree US/EU have a lot of financial interests in Russia. Trade with Russia makes a LOT of people in the west Rich. Not only investment bankers, but tourist industries, restaurants, fashion industries, energy companies, various industries etc.

    Your reference to Exxon reminds me support Henry Ford had for Hitler believing that it was good for business. Shall I remind that it took 50 million lives (least American) to correct this misjudgement.

  232. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:04 pm

    Ba’al Zevul (Occam’s Disposable Razor)

    MAD lefties here certainly least concerned (I hope so) with drilling rights. Or are they?

    For them anti-western hysteria is paramount. It gives them oxygen and meaning in their lives. Even when it comes at the expense of freedom or lives. Golodomor, Gulag, Great Leap forward have been unnoticed by MAD lefties for decades. But praises for very leaders who delivered these genocidal mechanisms was high amongst MAD western lefties.

  233. Uzbek in the UK, I am really surprised by your rudeness. Over the last fortnight you have called me a Mad leftie, a bible-basher because I point out your mistake (you should have thanked me), and made claims that I support the Andijan massacre. You clearly did not read my article:

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2013/10/21/uzbekistans-dictatorship-is-no-laughing-matter/

    Now if you keep hounding me because I do not share your vision about western democracies I will ignore you, as I ignore those who believe in torture, and the sock-puppets. Have you signed up to MI5 or something?

  234. Still Putin bashing?
    CRAIG
    “Personally I should like to see a complete financial freeze on the entire Russian oligarchy. The knock on effects would only hurt a few bankers, and city types and those who depend on them (cocaine dealers, lap dancers, Porsche dealers, illegal domestic servants). Sadly we shan’t see anything happen. They won’t let Eton go bust.”

    Personally I would of liked to see the banks fall in 2008 when they went bankrupt in the market place!
    I am sure a lot of venture capitalist money came from these very Russian oligrchs as well!
    so who are we actually bailing out out right now,all thanks to your local centralised authority in this case the western representative democracy,care of Osbourne and Mandelson etc?

    Craig the REAL problem is not whether tweedle dum is less evil than tweedle dee
    The problem is the political system in the East and the West!
    We complain about an endless list of corrupt rulers ,usually delusionally believing thier corrupt rulers are worse than ours!
    When in fact we should be challenging the system that produces an endless list of corrupt rulers!
    You ARE delusional if you think repeating the system will produce a different result!!
    The repeatedly used system is centralised authorities
    They usually hide under the guise of representative democracy(elected dictatorship) and state capitalism.
    State capitalism has various different meanings, but is usually described as a society wherein the productive forces are controlled and directed by the state in a capitalist manner, even if such a state calls itself socialist. Corporatized state agencies and states that own controlling shares of publicly-listed firms, and thus acting as a capitalist itself, are two examples of state capitalism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism
    This is not a new political idea
    Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.
    Benito Mussolini, fascist dictator of Italy (1922-1943)
    Welcome to 21st century Fascism 2.0 lite version.So its no suprise that the Western representative democraies are backing Neo-Nazis!
    We solve this issue ,we solve the roots of most of the worlds global problems.
    Direct Democracy would be a very good start.
    Unfortunately NO polition will champion this cause ,as it would mean less power and possible jail sentences for most politions!
    Imagine if the USA had pumped 5 billion dollars into the Ukraine promoting Direct Democracy instead of Neo-Nazis ,state capitalsim and elected dictatorship!
    …but Craig maybe this is your chance to shine!
    http://direct-democracy.co.uk/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy
    OR
    do you disagree with Direct Democracy(True Deomcracy) and prefer representative democracy(Elected Dictatorship)?
    But then YOU have to take responsibility for its actions,even when its not your choice of leader!!
    It means accepting leaders like Putin and Cameron and Obama and Bush and Blair etc etc etc
    so YOUR lambasting of Putin is a bit hypocritical and nonsensical, unless you are trying to say there is something racial or cultural in Russia that makes them vote for monsters ,while British voters vote for gentlemen!?!?!?
    I do not accept any of them as my leader!
    I would like a Direct Democracy Independent Scotland
    As I do not think representative democracy is worth the wealth theft ,police state ,paedophilia and war crimes!

  235. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 12:09 am

    “For the sake of humanity, can we please stop quoting RT as a source for at least as long as dust over Crimea sets? Is not it obvious that this is one of the major channels of official Russian propaganda to the western audience?”

    Do you think we don’t know that RT is Russian state media?

    There is nothing wrong with quoting any news outlet if what is quoted can be checked out. If posters give a link to RT it is better than not giving a link at all, which is your modus operandi.

  236. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:11 pm

    Notice how anti-Israeli comments slowly making their way to this thread.

    One left wondering what Israel has to do with Russian Anschluss of Crimea. But why would MAD western lefties care?

  237. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:23 pm

    doug scorgie

    How do you actually test the information you get from RT? Do you go to Crimea or to Kiev or Moscow and literally speak to the people? Did you ask putin if the 15.000 armed men are or not in fact on Russian Ministry of Defence payroll? Did you ask Yatcenuk if he has any sympathies to right wing Ukrainian nationalists?

    Or did you just verify RT propaganda against another source of pro-putin propaganda?

    Following your logic, next time US troops gathered somewhere outside of their military base location for any purpose, I have your blessing to quote CNN. Do I?

  238. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 12:38 pm

    John Goss

    You sound (read) like MAD leftie on this blog, particularly on the threads regarding recent events with Russian Occupation of Ukraine. I just said it as it is. People like you cared less for millions of dead in Soviet Union and China than about portraying false workers paradise who which they have been introduced during their short and selective visit to both Russia and China. I see something of that people in your comments. In your blind denial of evil of putinism and his promotion of Russian Chauvinism.

    With regards to Bible, you did not point to my mistake. I was aware of Jesus quotation but quoting Bible as source? Come on. Are you serious? Quotation of Lenin in contrary have documented evidence and has been said many times by the author publicly. I am sure if you google Lenin’s public speeches you will come across few.

    I am not claiming that you supporting Andijan massacre, I am claiming that by denial of freedom to people of Ukraine and right to remove corrupt and oppressive president (something we have been having for the last 25 years in Uzbekistan) you by PROXY support Karimov in his brutal suppression of Andijan massacre. Your claims of legitimacy of Yanukovich could easily be mirrored to support legitimacy of Karimov.

    And for conclusion, I DO NOT believe in Torture. How could you say this to me? I have been claiming many times in the past on this very blog why I am in the UK. You have your STUPIDITY enough to brand me torture supporter? What an insult. And I am not MI5,6,7 (or any other number) agent.

  239. O/T but Jimmy Mubenga had no human rights.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1229068/g4s-staff-to-be-charged-over-deportation-death

    Charge Teresa May with manslaughter too. She had been in charge since May of that year. Damian Green was her Minister for Immigration at the time. Charge him too.

    G4S should have been charged with corporate manslaughter.

    PS I see May has just launched a new cutter. I bet she enjoyed the experience.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-launches-new-border-force-cutter-to-protect-uk-coastline

  240. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    19 Mar, 2014 – 4:27 pm

    “…and don’t try to reply seriously to someone who’s not serious and is just fooling around.”

    More irony!

  241. Uzbek in the UK
    19 Mar, 2014 – 5:17 pm

    doug scorgie
    “Do your own reading. Nobody provided me references when I wanted to learn something.”

    Uzbek, you make statements as if they are fact without any references to back-up what you say.

    How do you think other posters here can check that what you say is true if you don’t provide links or references?

    Are we to accept that if Uzbek says something it must be true?

  242. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 12:44 am

    “Ben”
    “Why did you call me stupid? Just because I disagree with you and do not sing God Bless Mr Putin?”

    Sometimes Uzbek you sound just like Habbabkuk.

  243. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:04 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 11:26 am

    “Mr Murray
    “It was actually Lenin who first said that who are not with us is against us.”

    Now Uzbek you have the chance to back-up what you claim by telling us where you sourced the above claim.

    References please.

  244. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:09 pm

    John Goss

    I read your article now. As I expected you used appalling Human Right record and crimes of Karimov in Uzbekistan to support your anti-Zionist and anti-western propaganda arguments.

    While it is true that after 9/11 Karimov became close ally of GWB and TB and 2 latter turned their blind eye on many of karimov’s crimes (for which I many times stated my hatred towards these 2 and also Jack Straw after what he did to Mr Murray). BUT you FAILED to even mention that in May 2005 couple days after the Andijan Massacre karimov went to Moscow and it was putin who SUPPORTED karimov this time.

    In fact I failed to mention it earlier but in addition to Lavrov’s hypocrisy (which Mr Murray mentioned in his earlier thread) I have at least ONE more. It was Lavrov who announced to the world that karimov dealt with attempt of overthrowing Uzbek government by terrorists. He was LYING that time. He knew for sure that there were MANY women and children amongst the people who were still being buried at the time of Lavro’s hypocratic speech. Russia still have excellent intelligence agenture in former soviet union. I hope that documents will come to light (may be after fall of putin’s cleptocratic regime) showing that Russian intelligence reported that karimov shot mostly unarmed people many of whom were women and children.

    Now WHY is your article SO BIASED?

  245. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:11 pm

    doug scorgie

    Use google mate. You have computer and internet, do not you? Alternative could be buying ticket to Moscow and ordering access to the Kremlin archive. Googel is still cheaper and more convenient I guess.

  246. “Uzbek in the UK, 20 Mar, 2014 – 11:26 am

    Mr Murray

    It was actually Lenin who first said that who are not with us is against us.”

    Does that sound like someone who was aware of the biblical quote?

    The one who believes in torture knows who he is. The sock-puppet(s) know who they are. I did not say you believed in torture, rather that if you continued insulting me with slurs like MAD leftie I would treat you like them by ignoring your comments. If you do not agree with my views, argue against them, using facts. If you convince me I will change my views. But do not make unsubstantiated statements based on your personal experiences of one former USSR and later satellite Russian state. You have a view of Putin and the current Russian government based on those experiences. You refer to your reading but never give a source. I’m sorry. This simply makes you look like a self-opinionated bigot.

  247. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:15 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 12:11 pm

    “Notice how anti-Israeli comments slowly making their way to this thread.”

    Direct question Uzbek: are you a Zionist?

  248. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:20 pm

    doug scorgie

    This is not university research committee. I am not publishing my dissertation or essay on this blog. I am sharing my views on the topics raised by Mr Murray. I am also annoyed and angry that many here (including you) are so limited by their cliché that they fail to see tragedies behind cheap but persistent putin propaganda.

    For the sake of proving me wrong please read about Russian/Ukrainian/Central Asian history first before making biased comments. Your MAD leftie cliché and absence of knowledge about long and troublesome history of Russia and its colonies make you sound stupid.

  249. Uzbek in the UK, 20 Mar, 2014 – 1:09 pm

    You’ve done it again. First let me say I did not know that Karimov visited (was called perhaps?) to Russia two days after the Andijan massacre, or what was said between the two. Please supply the source and perhaps I can use it in the future.

  250. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:23 pm

    doug scorgie

    “Direct question Uzbek: are you a Zionist?”

    Not at all. But after YOU white Europeans did to Jews I believe that they have right to establish their own statehood. Not at the expense of Arabs. Like Mr Murray I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.

  251. Deconstructing Centralised Authority
    Representative Democracy in the East or West,
    represents democracy in the same way a transvestite represents a woman!
    what sort of people are attracted to representative democracies?
    Using his law enforcement experience and data drawn from the FBI’s behavioral analysis unit, Jim Kouri has collected a series of personality traits common to a couple of professions.
    Kouri, who’s a vice president of the National Assn. of Chiefs of Police, has assembled traits such as superficial charm, an exaggerated sense of self-worth, glibness, lying, lack of remorse and manipulation of others.
    These traits, Kouri points out in his analysis, are common to psychopathic serial killers.
    But these traits are also common to politicians.
    Our elected officials often show many of the exact same character traits as criminal nut-jobs, who run from police but not for office.
    Kouri notes that these criminals are psychologically capable of committing their dirty deeds free of any concern for social, moral or legal consequences and with absolutely no remorse.
    “This allows them to do what they want, whenever they want,” he wrote. “Ironically, these same traits exist in men and women who are drawn to high-profile and powerful positions in society including political officeholders.”
    http://current.com/community/93332432_study-politicians-share-personality-traits-with-serial-killers.htm
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/01/09/a-list-of-child-sex-offenders-inside-the-british-government/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/uk-government-blackmailed-into-war-blair-covers-mps-paedophile-ring-and-the-dunblane-massacre/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/here-is-a-list-of-100-paedophile-councillors-or-uk-political-party-affiliated-members-they-are-among-the-people-who-help-run-our-country/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2012/11/10/british-establishment-paedophile-rings-and-their-global-partners/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2014/03/05/david-cameron-is-covering-for-paedophiles-again/
    This monsters are attracted to centralised power in the East or the West!
    What are the results of centralised authorities and respresentative democracies
    DEMOCIDE!
    Democide is a term revived and redefined by the political scientist R. J. Rummel as “the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder.” Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the inflictions of people working for governments than have died in battle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
    Albert Einstein: “A Foolish Faith In Authority Is The Worst Enemy Of The Truth”
    Centralised governments lie and kill and steal!
    Anybody who SERIOUSLY studies this situation comes to the same and OBVIOUS conclusion
    Police Intelligence Analyst Fired For Saying 9/11 And 7/7 Look Like Inside Jobs
    UK Police Intel Expert: Government, Not Islam, Real Terror Threat
    Tony found that he could only conclude that the official 7/7 narrative was ‘a monstrous lie.’
    Instead of the official ‘suicide bombers’ narrative, which he and all of his colleagues had believed without question, he realised that the weight of evidence strongly points far more towards 7/7 being an event stage-managed by British intelligence than anything else.
    On July 8th he handed over a very short version of the ‘Strategic Assessment Matrix,’ which averred that the real terrorist ‘threat’ to society was almost entirely of the state-sponsored kind, and it alluded to both 9/11 and 7/7 in this context. Other threats from other ‘domains of criminality’ were, his brief report claimed, ‘insignificant’ by comparison
    By Nick Kollerstrom
    July 12, 2011
    http://theintelhub.com/2011/07/12/uk-police-intel-expert-government-not-islam-real-terror-threat/
    they also cannot run an economy!
    FYI 181ST IS LAST PLACE!!!
    NOTICE THE 4 BIGGEST DEBTOR NATIONS WHERE THE NATIONS THAT GOT LIED INTO ILLEGAL WARS!
    THEY ALL HAVE MAJOR ELITE PAEDOPHILE RINGS AS WELL
    …WHERE DID THOSE IRAQI WMD’S DISAPPEAR TOO?
    Rank Country CAB USD, bn
    1 People’s Republic of China 371.833
    2 Germany 252.501
    3 Japan 210.967
    4 Saudi Arabia 95.762
    5 Russia 76.163
    6 Switzerland 70.797
    7 Norway 59.983
    8 Netherlands 52.522
    176 Greece -44.218
    177 Italy -52.725
    178 Australia -56.342
    179 United Kingdom -105.224
    180 Spain -145.141
    181 United States -731.214
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance
    This is a list of countries and territories by current account balance (CAB), based on the International Monetary Fund data for 2007, obtained from the latest World Economic Outlook database (October 2008).
    NOTE THAT THESE FIGURE ARE FROM 2007. THIS WAS BEFORE THE CREDIT CRUNCH!
    THIS WAS THE END OF A BOOM PERIOD IN A “BOOM AND BUST” ECONOMY!!
    WHO WAS GOING TO PAY THE DEBT WHEN THE ECONOMY WENT BUST?
    NOTE THE POSITION OF SMALL INDEPENDANT NATIONS LIKE SWITZERLAND AND NORWAY!!
    FREE MARKET CAPITALISM FOR DUMMIES!
    its not that difficult , so you see we do not need the brightest and the best.
    1.Availability of credit allows money to flow between savers and borrowers.
    2.Resources and funds are allocated to various projects or investments during a boom phase.
    3.Eventually borrowing becomes excessive and leads to malinvestment,
    4.At this stage, adherence to free market theory would allow for an efficient cleansing period and a healthy recovery period. How? Irresponsible and unprofitable businesses fail. Bad debts get liquidated. Excess resources go on sale, flow into more stable ventures and pool together with more profitable resources controlled by healthy corporations or entities
    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6497.html
    NEWSFLASH , UK ,USA AND EUROPEAN BANKS FOUND TO BE UNPROFITABLE AND IRRESPONSIBLE .
    THEREFORE YOU GET ASSET STRIPPED AND REPLACED BY RESPONSIBLE AND PROFITABLE BUSINESS MODELS!!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/12/20/do-we-even-need-a-banking-sector-not-any-more/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/bonuses-for-dummies-or-the-bonus-myth/
    FYI
    Belgium without a government for 2 years economically outpreformed the rest of Europe…including Switzerland!!
    WHO NEEDS POLITIONS OR POLITICAL PARTIES?
    The 2nd LAW of Thermodynamics clearly states the more you impose law ,the more you accelerate chaos.
    A centralised authority imposing social laws can only create social chaos!
    There is a law against murder ,how is that going?
    OR today is the centralised authority training our youth to murder without thought or consequence? (its called joining the armed forces)
    Who was responsible for starting WWII?
    “Should Germany merchandise (do business) again in the next 50 years we have led this war (WW1) in vain.” – Winston Churchill in The Times (1919)
    “We will force this war upon Hitler, if he wants it or not.” – Winston Churchill (1936 broadcast)
    “Germany becomes too powerful. We have to crush it.” – Winston Churchill (November 1936 speaking to US – General Robert E. Wood)
    “This war is an English war and its goal is the destruction of Germany.” – Winston Churchill (- Autumn 1939 broadcast)
    Enjoy your freedom peasants!!
    Remember to pay your taxes and fight thier wars!!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/democracy-2-0-progressive-iceland-and-dictatorship-2-0-oppressive-britain-the-difference-between-true-democracy-and-elected-dictatorship/

  252. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:37 pm

    John Goss

    You see what your LIMITED knowledge does to you. Should not you have research problem more carefully before publishing your article? Andijan Massacre may mean LITTLE to MAD lefties but it means A LOT for Uzbeks.

    Lavrov’s speech. Here is the source in Russian http://www.globalrus.ru/news/141391/ Published on 2nd June 2005. Use google translate.

    Karimov’s visit to Kremlin after Andijan massacre also in Russian http://www.fergananews.com/articles/3846

    Here is another Russian source http://4vlada.net/vneshnyaya-politika/andizhanskoe-poboishche-vosstanie-v-uzbekistane-podavleno-s-bespretsedentnoi-zhe

  253. Uzbek in the UK; I think what you’re seeing is a reaction. I grew up under Cold War propaganda. I didn’t take much notice of the news; as a child, I called it “the nasty old news”. But somehow it worked its magic. I knew that the Sun never shone in “Russia” (ie. the USSR). I knew that people were perpetually miserable there, everyone wore the same uniform, endlessly watched missile parades, and no one ever smiled, because there was nothing to be happy about.

    In the early ’90s I started to meet some real Russians who had come to Britain. They were just ordinary people, with stories of family life and work and love. The caricature of Russians as broken people robbed of all humanity by an overpowering system was broken, and I started to learn some surprising things. They’d gone swimming a lot, because there was no charge to use the municipal baths. They’d had to share telephones, but there were no telephone bills. No one expected to be unemployed. So it had turned out that there had been a genuinely communal side to “communism”, which for me had just been a word for intense oppression.

    Please note that I am not arguing against the USSR and Russia’s poor human rights, but the picture I’d been presented with by the media was hopelessly biased, leaving my mind with no truer image to fill the large gap left by what had been discredited. Speculation fills such voids, and the pro-capitalist propaganda continues, inciting reaction against it.

    Uzbek, I missed something on the threads. Is MAD an acronym? What does it stand for?

  254. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:45 pm

    John Goss

    I said that Lenin said it first (and I still convinced that he was the first) because I DO NOT believe that texts in Bible reflect historical facts. In fact historians nowadays argue about many of the texts in Bible that were given to the Christians as undisputable truth for centuries. Do you want links for this too? Come on do your research.

    Can you argue with the fact that someone who experienced oppression and unfair treatment from another will always (or at least for a long time) will have fear of that another? I suppose Iraqis will have for long time fear, distrust or hate towards Anglo Saxons. And would you argue with the fact that many Iraqis would now MUCH BETTER the EVIL of US/UK? Or would you still claim that John Goss whose arse is firmly on chair in (I suppose) comfortable British town knows better than Iraqis what US/UK did to them?

  255. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:47 pm

    Mr Goss’s Doctrine, neatly set out by the Tovarish himself:

    “Now if you keep hounding me because I do not share your vision about western democracies I will ignore you, as I ignore those who believe in torture, and the sock-puppets. Have you signed up to MI5 or something?”

    Characterised by

    1/. the slur (MI5)

    2/. the laughable misrepresentation (“hounding me”..because “I do not share your vision”)

    3. the cop-out (I can’t meet your arguments, therefore I will, on the basis of a trumped-up charge, no longer engage with you.

    ********************

    “Life is getting better, life is getting merrier!” (J. Stalin, ca. 1932)

  256. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:50 pm

    Uzbek

    “Notice how anti-Israeli comments slowly making their way to this thread.”
    __________________

    You’re not surprised, surely? It was only a matter of time, since the two great themes of the Excellences on this blog are

    1/. anti-Westernism

    2/. anti-Israelism and a barely concealed anti-Jewishness.

  257. Uzbek in the UK, my generation in the UK was not encouraged to know very much about Russia/USSR, beyond it being a dangerous inhuman enemy poised to destroy us with nuclear weapons which would be there forever. Similarly, the media repeatedly made big efforts to convince us of the insane inhumanity of the leader(s) of whichever country our politicians were about have their next war with. That never included Russia/USSR (thank God). There has never been much consciousness of the real situation in Russia.

  258. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:54 pm

    Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:23 pm

    “I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.”

    Thank you, but is your support for a two state solution or a single state solution?

  259. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 1:56 pm

    Doug Scorgie (to Uzbek)

    “How do you think other posters here can check that what you say is true if you don’t provide links or references?”
    _______________________-

    Which implies that you think that everything is true provided it’s from or backed up by a link.

    Newsjunkiepost? Counterpunch?

    I give you this, you do have a sense of humour! :)

  260. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:03 pm

    Clark

    “Uzbek in the UK, my generation in the UK was not encouraged to know very much about Russia/USSR, beyond it being a dangerous inhuman enemy poised to destroy us with nuclear weapons”
    _______________________

    Sounds very much like your excuse for being one of the useful idiots. It’s not my fault, boo hoo, they suppressed the information about how wonderful lofe in the Soviet Union really was!

    The Eastern Europeans can tell you all about Russia/Soviet Union.

  261. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:06 pm

    Mr Scorgie to Uzbek

    “Thank you, but is your support for a two state solution or a single state solution?”
    __________________

    Once he’s told you, will you tell which of the two YOU support?

    Thank you.

  262. Спасибо, Mister Goss. My favorite, most subversive part of the UDHR is

    “every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms”

    because if Americans took in this web page, the US deep state would grind to a halt.

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/UniversalHumanRightsInstruments.aspx

    It’s more sensitive and secret than anything Snowden took. In the US this stuff is strictly for elites, like in the USSR where only the nomenklatura could read 1984. The young US elites that manage to learn of human rights, usually in an International Baccalaureate, immediately get shipped off to Hotchkiss and Harvard or Yale or Johns Hopkins, where they’re taught it’s a stick to beat enemy nations. Lawyers are carefully indoctrinated not to think of human rights as domestic law: it’s “non-self executing” (just a runaround, it’s binding anyway); “the constitution covers all those rights” (obsolete shit dreamed up by slavers and now revoked – right, that’s all you need.)

    Putin was a rising star when the Helsinki Final Act dissolved his totalitarian state, and now it’s payback time.

  263. Habbabkuk, I do not believe that there is much anti-Jewishness in this comment sections, though I agree that there is some. There is much suspicion that Jewish connections and influence are often pro-Israeli, and thus pro Israel expansionism, pro Israeli apartheid and supportive of Israeli racist murder and human rights abuses. Undoubtedly such influence exists, but it is not explicitly displayed, thus encouraging speculation as to its extent. I have such worries myself, the extent of Murdoch’s influence being just one example.

    But subtract the problem of Israel, and I’m convinced that the vast majority of what you perceive as “anti-Jewishness” would simply evaporate.

  264. Habbabkuk, 2:03 pm: do you think that the people you argue against here are evil and/or inhuman?

  265. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:23 pm

    “I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.”

    But as the Israeli State does not practice this, you presumably must agree with the highlighting of & criticism of exactly this when it is posted here ?

    BTW how goes the Jewish myth of Jews being the superior “Chosen People” rate your assessment of the Israeli State history of military aggression against its neighbours ? It this not a sort of chauvinism that you say that is inherent with Russians ?

  266. Ignoring the bigger and more serious picture, looking at this purely from a gay sub-culture point of view, some of these uniformed shaven Ukranian lads, whether they be far right or whatever political labels they claim or are given, are quite cute. It’s a wonder ‘the West’ hasn’t found a gay angle to this with which to bash Russia or Putin.

    Mad-leftie anti-zionists of the world unite. This thread has deteriorated somewhat since the routine, ever recurring and totally spurious claims of “anti-Israeli comments” being made were made. I for one have noticed a steady onslaught of anti-anti-Zionist comments pervading these comments for a considerable time (years actually). No-one has mentioned the zionist terrorist state of Israel except for those tireless tiresome anti-anti-zionists who daily scale new heights of hypocrisy and selective memory in defending this gruesome cult. Feeling left out in the cold as they’re not centre stage the zionist troll cadre must and are introducing the subject themselves, whilst attempting to police others comments, as ever. Legitimate and deserved, even scathing and bitter criticism of Israel’s state sanctioned crimes of genocide and exposing its band of willing idiot Israel-firster drones for their breathtaking gall. Such exceptionalism, such presumption of impunity from the ghastliest bloodiest crimes as found in the Israeli case is shared by the UK and US governing oligarchical elites and unsurprisingly all three are the subject of these same noisome trolls’ mendacious ostentatious sickly devotion.

    They hang together, they’ll hang together.

  267. tarpit 20 Mar, 2014 – 2:10 pm

    Thank you too. Yes, I believe it that those exclusive universities teach that these rights (UDHR) are to make sure foreign countries toe the line. Same in the UK I’m afraid. Here it starts a lot earlier, maybe even at prep-school but certainly by Eton, Rugby or Harrow. Such privileged children are taught they are different from us, and born to rule. Unfortunately it turns out to be true.

  268. Uzbek, cannot find in your links where Karimov visited Russia and spoke to Putin on May 15 2005. Can you point me please to the exact text.

  269. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:57 pm

    Clark

    “Habbabkuk, 2:03 pm: do you think that the people you argue against here are evil and/or inhuman?”
    ___________________

    To do so would be to overstate their importance, I think. I’d only start asking myself those questions about people who actually DO, or are in a position to DO rather than just foam at the mouth. As far as the mouth foamers are concerned, it’s a kinder – and more constructive – use of my time and energy to offer them a metaphorical Kleenex tissue rather than to speculate about whether they’re evil and/or inhuman.

    I do of course have my opinions about them and also about what probably makes them tick. But I’m sure you know what those opinions are from my posts.

  270. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 2:59 pm

    Tony M

    “It’s a wonder ‘the West’ hasn’t found a gay angle to this with which to bash Russia or Putin.”
    _________________

    Heaven forbid, Tony! There’s enough gay-bashing going on already in rasPutin’s Russia!

  271. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:10 pm

    Macky and doug scorgie

    I realise that you are trying to subvert this thread to anti-Israeli rant. Before I go any further on Israel.

    Can I please have your opinion on whether or not you trust historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust?

  272. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:12 pm

    Clark

    More concretely.

    “Habbabkuk, I do not believe that there is much anti-Jewishness in this comment sections, though I agree that there is some.”

    I’m gratified to see that you’re progressing. It will get you into trouble on here if you’re not careful (cf the stick Craig’s got over the last few threads)?

    “There is much suspicion that Jewish connections and influence are often pro-Israeli, and thus pro Israel expansionism, pro Israeli apartheid and supportive of Israeli racist murder and human rights abuses.”

    I hear what you say. Would you say that Mary recently posting a photo of Theresa May on the arm of a British Jew called Jonathan Something or other at some reception illustrates that suspicion you refer to? Or if not, what do you think its purpose was?

  273. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:13 pm

    John Goss

    I realise that in my post I said couple of days instead of couple of weeks which I meant to say. Karimov was actually recovering from after shock and getting rid of evidence of his bloody actions in the few days after the Andijan massacre.

    But does it really matter when exactly karimov visited Moscow? He did few weeks after killing hundreds of people (women and children) got full backing of putin and you HAVE NOT even mentioned this in your article.

  274. Ba'al Zevul (Such a Parcel of Rogues)

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:14 pm

    ‘Habbabkuk, 2:03 pm: do you think that the people you argue against here are evil and/or inhuman?’

    But you haven’t yet noticed. He very rarely argues against anyone. His posts are blatantly designed to irritate rather than either inform or debate.

  275. Habbabkuk, in a democracy, we’re all meant to be important.

    When people’s opinions fail to reflect reality, it becomes important to consider the ways in which their informational environment affect their cognition; none of us are independent of such influences.

    We are each part of that environment ourselves. By taking such a, sorry to say it, superior and confrontational approach, you encourage people to form a “camp” in opposition to yourself and your opinions; you cause the disagreement to harden.

    Now it may be that you’re aware of that, and your strategy may be to herd the opposition into a narrow corral, provoke them to an irrational unity, and then easily discredit them. But in the long run it is self-defeating, unless there are death camps to send them to, and even governments which do that tend not to last very long.

    If you’d rather win hearts and minds, then providing gentler, more compassionate and more understanding education will prove the surer course. Remember, in a democracy, we’re all important.

  276. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 3:32 pm

    Clarke

    MAD (which I unfortunately use quite often on this blog) is not abbreviation. The word as it is described in Oxford dictionary says that “chiefly British (Of behaviour or an idea) extremely foolish; not sensible:”.

    In 21 century of internet and various books available online and various archived materials also available online, it is no excuse for someone to state that limited knowledge exists due to the Iron Curtain that had fallen over 20 years ago. Read now, enrich your knowledge.

    I was actually one who lived behind Iron Curtain. My knowledge of the west (at that time) was as limited as yours of the USSR. It did NOT prevent me from learning English, reading and having better understanding of the history, culture, economy and politics of the west. I am NOT the best expert. In fact I do not even claim to be an expert of the western history etc, but I know for sure MORE THAN YOU and MANY others on this blog about EVIL of Russian Empire, USSR and revanchism of these horrible policies by current Russian president.

  277. Habbabkuk, 3:12 pm, yes, I do think that, though I don’t see it as limited to Jews and Jewishness. I’ve commented before that Mary’s comments about the political social whirlwind serve to illustrate what a small, insular group influential people constitute, and I linked to an article about how a person’s social group primarily determines their outlook on life, by constantly reinforcing their opinions.

    This, incidentally, is why I consider this comment section so important. We get an unusually diverse range of contributors here, and I expect that the readership is also diverse. It cuts across political allegiance, social groups and economic strata, exposing people to the unfamiliar. And that is why I’d like you to participate in a more friendly, respectful and compassionate manner rather than getting people’s backs up <3

  278. Here’s a blast from the past.

    Malcolm Fraser, former Australian Liberal (Conservative) PM, tells the truth about US hegemony.

    He should know. He was involved in the palace coup against sitting Labour PM Gough Whitlam back in the 1970s, when Whitlam tried to undermine relations between Australian and US spooks, which we now know as Five Eyes.

    This was part of the early enabling measures of neoconism, which took place in Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand and the US too, of course.

    He’s not happy with how it all turned out, but then, who is.

    “US thinks it’s superior, rules only apply to inferior nations”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhKvV1aTAL8

    Seems like Goughie was right, and remember these guys come from a time when western politicians had a bit more substance about them, not the teenagers we have today.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Fraser

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gough_Whitlam

  279. Clark

    Why do you assume habby’s a democrat.

    Surely everything about habby’s posts suggest elitism.

  280. I think Putin is ignoring the logical inconsistency in his argument, because the US/UK have set the precedent for this. He’s kind of saying, “If it’s OK for you to play Empire then why not us?” I find this – in the context of the Geopolitical Hegemonic game Western pressure is forcing Putin to play – entirely understandable. It’s Mafia Rules, plain and simple.

    It occurs to me that Putin doesn’t care what the Western Media and leaders think, because of their hypocrisy. He knows he is going to be demonised no matter what, so he’ll do what he wants to do anyway. Moral judgement of his actions is another question, but if we’re talking about basic Russian Pragmatism here, well I think that’s the result we’ve got.

    The West have been pushing at Russia’s Borders for too long and Putin has drawn a line. Perhaps we should be thankful that the violent fanatics in Washington don’t yet appear to have direct opposite numbers running things in Moscow, or we might have a little more to worry about right now.

    It’s easy for us to sit here in our cushy Western lives and judge, but in the context of the Global Imperial Death Match that all the major powers and everyone else plays to some extent, Putin has managed to do this – so far – without a great deal of bloodshed.

  281. Uzbek in the UK; “Can I please have your opinion on whether or not you trust historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust?”

    Let’s be generous and assume that this is not a pretty low & quite a disgusting attempt to smear me as a Holocaust denier, as it’s not all relevant to what we were discussing, so anyhow the answer is I do indeed trust the historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust.

    So feel free to now proceed with our conversation.

  282. Uzbek in the UK, I’d like to send you good wishes. I haven’t been keeping up with all the conversation here, but I’ve often seen your comments, trying to convince people of Putin and Russian dominance. Good, well done, I’m glad you’re doing it. I know what it’s like to argue against many people at once in a comment section like this one; it is hard work, people falsely identify you as some kind of enemy, or a stooge spreading propaganda for some vested interest. You’re doing very well.

    But most of your opponents are not mad. They are merely ignorant, and for any individual, subjects of which we are ignorant greatly outnumber subjects about which we are not. I agree that they should learn more, and be less sure of their positions, but people’s time is always limited. I ask you to remember that Russia/USSR was presented here as “the enemy” for the wrong reasons in an unfair manner, and I wish you patience while the reaction to propaganda works its way out.

  283. Uzbek in the UK, 20 Mar, 2014 – 3:13 pm

    If I am going to put something in an article I need to have the facts. First of all the meeting was not 2 days or even 2 weeks later, it was a month and a half later. From what I understand from the Alexander Gabuyev article Karimov and Putin held their talks in camera but at the press conference Putin did not support Karimov’s claim about western and US influence, believing instead from Russia’s own intelligence that there was intervention from Afghanistan.

    “Мы очень сопереживали тому, что происходило в Узбекистане, и удовлетворены, что удалось взять ситуацию под контроль”,- многозначительно сказал Владимир Путин. Он подтвердил факт участия внешних сил, однако не стал развивать тезис Ислама Каримова о влиянии Запада и США, а пошел в другую сторону: “У нас была информация об инфильтрации боевиков из Афганистана, это наши спецслужбы подтверждают”. После этого оба президента удалились на закрытые переговоры.

    I’m afraid Uzbek you are going to have to write this article yourself. I should like to read it.

  284. Dmitry Orlov talks US collapse and Ukraine

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCO5nZgvtbY

  285. Thanks Herbie. I share practically all Dmitry Orlov’s views, about the collapse of the US economy, about the unity of the Ukrainian and Russian armies, and about the unsustainability of the thugs in government under Yatsenyuk.

  286. Putin’s recitation of blindingly obvious facts seems to have tapped a vein of seething popular resentment. Here a reformed US Cold Warrior describes the speech as a manifesto of everything (reading a bit much into it, IMO,) and gets a global chorus of acclamation in comments,

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.be/2014/03/today-every-free-person-in-world-has-won.html

    The whole world hates the US government. People worldwide hate the US government, pity its subject population and despise its satellite states. The US population, from right to left, incoherently loathes their regime.

    As one who was there when the USSR fell flat, I was struck by the intense public happiness among Soviet insiders, their joy in treason, the great curative puke of disgust that purged a parasitic regime. Now America is ripe for that. Putin doesn’t have to lead anybody. He can just stick a quick finger down America’s throat and stand aside.

  287. doug scorgie

    20 Mar, 2014 - 5:50 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:56 pm

    Doug Scorgie (to Uzbek):
    “How do you think other posters here can check that what you say is true if you don’t provide links or references?”

    Habbabkuk (to Doug Scorgie):
    “Which implies that you think that everything is true provided it’s from or backed up by a link.”

    A non-sequitur Habbakuk.

    иди в жопу

  288. Moscow strikes back against US officials – Banned from Russia

    1. Caroline Atkinson
    Deputy Assistant U.S. President
    National Security

    2. Daniel Pfeiffer
    Assistant to the U.S. President

    3. Benjamin Rhodes
    Assistant to the U.S. President

    4. Harry Reid
    The leader of the majority in the Senate
    U.S. Congress

    5. John Boehner
    Speaker of the House of Representatives
    U.S. Congress

    6. Robert Menendez
    Chairman of the Senate Committee on
    Foreign Affairs

    7. Mary Landrieu
    Senator

    8. John McCain
    Senator

    9. Daniel Coates
    Senator

    http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/newsline/177739554DA10C8B44257CA100551FFE

  289. Here’s an interesting speech from a Ukrainian MP from the south east of the country having a go at Svoboda …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nXoBnUtHaNE

    Here is the translation …

    ” Authorities are missing the boat. All of us must concentrate and give clear answer unless we want to lose both Crimea and Ukraine. How could we let that Crimea, “Ukraine’s gem”, an outlet to the sea, a strategic territory with such huge human and natural resources is being lost by us. Why is this happening? This is happening due to, among other reasons, sound compliance of people who live there and those people had been frightened by what had been happening in Kiev. What declamations were spoken, what statements were made? Unfortunately authorities are missing the boat again. Prime-minister has begun to address to the South and the East of Ukraine humanely only since yesterday and to explain them that russian language will not be abolished, that regions will acquire bigger sovereignty and citizens of these regions will be taken into account and will be respected. You may disagree and shout but I have just returned from Kharkov – the problem is that elderly people, 60+ y.o., want to join Russia. It is our problem and we are communicating with these people and informing them. Middle-aged people want russian language to become a state language and they want federalization and independence of a region (SE Ukraine). If you do not listen to them you will disintegrate the country, not we (Party of Regions) but you (Svoboda party). Visa non-free regime must not be invoked, you can call a persona non grata but people in eastern regions do work in Russia. You will hurt people who live in these regions first of all again. Do you, my friends and colleagues from Svoboda party, how you are called in Kharkov? You are called as “stars of the Kremlin”. You all, immediately after Putin’s speech, came to Panteleymonov (chief editor of first national TV of Ukraine) and did everything to cause harm on purpose (they forced him to resign). Killers? You are the killers! Moreover if authorities continue to miss the boat they will be remembered not as the ones who took the lead over Maidan but ones who were the true destructors of Ukraine. Concentrate! You…
    Suddenly her microphone deactivates…
    Some MPs are shouting “killers” in ukrainian…
    She continues: Military personnel in Crimea of all units still do not receive any adequate orders from superiors. Not from chief-commander, not from MoD. Do not miss the boat or you(Svoboda party) will lose Ukraine, we will also lose it (Party of Regions) but we will not let you forfeit Ukraine. Listen to the South-East!!! Do not miss the boat!!!”

  290. @ Orwellian at 4.02pm.

    I’m sure you’re right about Putin not caring about Western media or politicos. After all, I don’t; why should he?

    I was gobsmacked a week or two ago when I first heard Kerry start banging on about International Law and not changing borders by force. Whaaaaatt???? I couldn’t believe it. As if that wasn’t bad enough, they’ve been on about it ever since. Who believes this bollocks?

  291. Who believes this bollocks?

    The dumbest half or third of the population, distracted by porn and Pussy Riot, who believe, or rather lack the mental energy to disbelieve, whatever the media tell them. These are the dumbocrats who give superficial credibility to the pseudodemocratic plutocracy under which we now live.

  292. Resident Dissident

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:37 pm

    Perhaps in retaliation we should take over Chelsea FC!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26661220

  293. Technicolour (19 March – 10.14pm)

    Sorry for the delay in replying. I agree with those who argue that the term “cold war” was used by the US foreign policy establishment to pull the wool over the eyes of Americans and others by portraying US actions after WWII as essentially defensive in nature, with the leader of “the free world” bravely confronting a powerful, aggressive and implacable USSR bent on world conquest and domination. The evidence shows this was hogwash.

    The US emerged from WWII as the most powerful nation the world has ever known. As returning GIs settled into comfortable post-war prosperity, Washington used the rhetoric of war against a supposed new enemy to coopt the US media and academia, brainwash the population and intimidate (or arrest) critics who questioned official accounts of events.

    In reality, US policy was aimed at maintaining and extending its economic dominance by establishing a global network of military bases, demanding access to markets and securing access to resources by fair means or foul.

    Operating in secret much of the time, and killing opponents when necessary, it pursued these goals by financing political elites around the world and undermining their opponents, dictating the policies of international bodies such as the UN, World Bank and IMF, usurping European colonial control of “third-world” countries and “containing” (large) or invading (small) countries which refused to accept US suzerainty.

    These policies didn’t end when the “cold war” ended in 1989 (with the collapse of the Soviet Union) and they continue today. Ukraine is a good example.

    (The fact that Russia and China were run by ruthless totalitarian dictators doesn’t change the basic realities of post-war international relations, in my opinion, but it certainly helped US propagandists).

  294. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:45 pm

    John Goss

    What do you want me to provide you a secret Nixonian style tape confirming what putin told karimov behind closed doors?

    Since you are being so picky on the date of the visit I ask again does it really matter? 2 days, 2 weeks or 6 weeks?

    Karimov went to Kremlin to see putin as soon as he was able to leave Uzbekistan and as soon as Kremlin confirmed his acceptance. If you read little about Uzbekistan (and in fact you mentioned it in your article) until Andijan massacre Uzbekistan was US ally in war on terror. Kremlin and China both tried few times before to force US to leave K2 but Karimov only took final after Andijan massacre. Putin bought karimov’s farce (or putin might have advised karimov on how to actually make false claims, who knows) but facts remain facts. Karimov went to Kremlin soon after Andijan massacre and got putin’s backing.

    I will give you 3 quotes below judge for yourself.

    1 http://www.antiterror.ru/library/smi/90979035.html

    Showing that putin accepted karimov’s death toll account and supported karimov’s version that Afghan terrorists were involved in the upraising

    “Число погибших в Андижане оценивают по-разному. Независимые источники говорят о почти тысяче человек. По данным же генпрокуратуры Узбекистана, во время массовых беспорядков погибли 176 человек. Из них 79 – террористы, 45 – мирные жители, 20 – сотрудники правоохранительных органов, 11 военнослужащих. Во время андижанских событий были ранены 295 человек. Из них 62 – террористы, 47 – сотрудники правоохранительных органов, 35 – военнослужащие, 18 – мирные жители. Теперь, когда ситуация в республике взята под контроль, и об этом Каримов сообщил Путину, сделаны первые выводы. “Произошла инфильтрация боевиков из специально подготовленных баз на территории Афганистана” – таков вердикт и российской, и узбекской сторон. Впрочем, как сказал Владимир Путин, Россия знала об опасности, исходящей с афганской границы, и даже предупреждала об этом спецслужбы соседних государств. “У нас была такая информация, наши спецслужбы это подтверждали, но не знаю, насколько эта информация была вовремя до вас доведена”, – заявил Путин Каримову.”

    2 http://www.fergananews.com/articles/7427

    This is Michael Andersen account on death toll which contradicts to what karimov sold and Putin happily accepted.

    “Ведь один из самых важных вопросов об Андижане – сколько людей тогда погибло. Согласно официальной версии, 187 человек, причем, если верить словам Каримова, погибшие – это герои-солдаты и террористы. Свои подсчеты проводили и представители международных организаций, независимые эксперты, – и тогда говорили, что погибло минимум восемьсот, а может, и тысяча человек.
    Мы искали доказательства, разговаривали с очевидцами. И они показывали: вот там мой брат умер, там – сестра… И сразу становится понятно, что цифра в 180 человек, причем большинство – солдаты, – не соответствует действительности. Погибших гораздо больше. Мы разговаривали с врачом из Андижана – и она сказала, что своими глазами видела более 500 трупов. У нас есть копии документов из андижанского морга, и согласно этим бумагам, только в один день, 14 мая 2005 года, туда поступило 300 тел. Причем даже по документам причиной смерти было пулевое ранение. И это – яркое доказательство.”

    3 http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/672428

    This is what happened 1 year after the Andijan Massacre. Please read it VERY carefully. It should open up your BLIND eyes on the real reasons of why putin was so happy to support karimov and buy all bull sh..t from him regarding murdered people.

    “Слабость узбекского президента на руку Москве. В России собираются извлечь из сложного положения среднеазиатского союзника экономическую выгоду. В последнее время в Ташкент зачастили высокопоставленные российские чиновники и топ-менеджеры госмонополий. В начале года с Исламом Каримовым встречался председатель правления “Газпрома” Алексей Миллер. Затем Ташкент посетил спикер Совета федерации Сергей Миронов. Переговоры в основном касались допуска российских компаний к разработке крупнейших узбекских газовых месторождений (Урга, Куаныш и группы Акчалакских), а также урановых и золоторудных рудников. На прошлой неделе господина Каримова навестил первый вице-премьер Дмитрий Медведев. Не исключено, что его задачей было окончательное согласование российско-узбекских энергетических договоренностей с тем, чтобы они были подписаны лидерами двух стран в ходе сегодняшней встречи.”

    “Нынешние переговоры Владимира Путина и Ислама Каримова пройдут накануне годовщины жестокого подавления волнений в Андижане 13 мая прошлого года. За год после расстрела войсками андижанского восстания власти Узбекистана полностью зачистили политическое и информационное поле в стране и уничтожили остатки оппозиции.

    Этот процесс проходил в несколько этапов. Первым делом узбекские власти постарались как можно скорее покончить с “андижанским делом”. Следствие и судебные процессы над “организаторами мятежа” прошли в рекордно короткие сроки. На процессах обвиняемые один за другим признавались в том, что состояли в экстремистском течении “Акрамия”, что хотели создать исламский халифат в Ферганской долине и готовили свой мятеж на американские деньги. Еще до Нового года за решеткой оказались более 160 человек.

    Покончив с “мятежниками”, власть взялась за правозащитников. Сначала за решетку отправились узбекские борцы за права человека, чья точка зрения по поводу событий в Андижане расходилась с официальной. Потом пришла очередь зарубежных некоммерческих организаций — Узбекистан уже завершает их выдавливание из страны. Заодно было зачищено информационное пространство. Узбекский МИД лишил аккредитации журналистов радио “Свобода”. А британская служба новостей “Би-Би-Си” сама закрыла офис в Ташкенте, заявив, что ее корреспонденты подвергаются преследованиям. Независимым узбекским журналистам повезло меньше, чем их зарубежным коллегам. Два месяца назад известную в Ташкенте правозащитницу и журналистку Мутабар Таджибаеву приговорили к восьми годам тюремного заключения.”

    “До событий в Андижане господин Каримов пытался играть на противоречиях внутри треугольника Китай—Запад—Россия. Являясь членом Шанхайской организации сотрудничества (ШОС) вместе с Россией и Китаем, Узбекистан старался быть верным партнером Запада: открывал у себя натовские базы, состоял в антироссийском ГУУАМе. После Андижана треугольник лишился одной из сторон. Зато Москва и Пекин стали проявлять к Узбекистану повышенный интерес. В первую очередь Китай и Россия стремятся взять под контроль узбекские энергоресурсы. Но судя по тому, что сегодня Ислам Каримов встречается в Сочи с президентом Путиным, а не в Пекине с председателем Ху Цзиньтао, Москве удалось перехватить инициативу и втянуть Ташкент в орбиту своего влияния.

    За истекший год Россия и Узбекистан значительно сблизились. Россия дала президенту Каримову беспрецедентные гарантии безопасности, и это стало началом большой дружбы Москвы и Ташкента. В марте Ислам Каримов подписал два важнейших документа: о присоединении к Евразийскому экономическому сообществу и Договор о союзнических отношениях Узбекистана и России. Последний предусматривает, что Москва готова вмешаться в кризисную ситуацию на территории Узбекистана, если режим окажется в опасности.

    Теперь Москве осталось вовлечь господина Каримова в деятельность еще одной пророссийской организации — Организации договора о коллективной безопасности (ОДКБ). На днях в Минске генсек ОДКБ Николай Бордюжа заявил, что организация готова плотно сотрудничать с Узбекистаном: “Если уже осуществляющиеся практические шаги выведут нас на новый уровень, то не исключена возможность вступления Ташкента в ОДКБ”. По информации Ъ, на нынешних переговорах с президентом Путиным Ислам Каримов подтвердит намерение включиться в деятельность ОДКБ и взамен будет просить о военно-технической помощи. Скорее всего, он ее получит. Узбекистан стратегически важен для Москвы по нескольким причинам. Контроль над этой страной поможет усилить российское влияние в граничащих с ней Киргизии и Таджикистане. А это усилит позиции России в ШОС: сколотив собственную команду из Ташкента, Бишкека и Душанбе, Москва сможет более уверенно разговаривать с сильным Пекином.”

    Now your what is left of your MAD leftie brain and THINK using your favourite realist approach on how putin benefited from rapprochement with Karimov and ASK yourself if he as good as you try to portrait him.

  295. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:48 pm

    This is the cream of the whole putin’s/karimov newly found friendship after Andijan Massacre Россия дала президенту Каримову беспрецедентные гарантии безопасности, и это стало началом большой дружбы Москвы и Ташкента.

  296. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 9:51 pm

    Resident Dissident

    BAD strategy. Take over Chelsea and pay all these Torres gang hundred millions from tax payers?

    Why not take over some of the luxury russian oligarch owned properties, sell them to (lets say) Chinese oligarchs and build council houses for that money?

  297. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:03 pm

    Pykrete

    There is no question in that Russia has been holding Ukraine by balls for the last 7 centuries.

    I agree with that MP that Russian language must be returned official language status (like Ukrainian language) and that rights of Russian minority in Ukraine must be respected.

    But recognising all this you also should understand that it will be difficult to do for some as Russia keeps gun pointed at Kiev. It took Czechs and Poles decades to start having normal relations with Germans. Even Brits and French have had troubled relations with Germans, remember Adenauer visit to Paris? Many Indians, Pakistanis and even Chinese still hate British and many Arabs still hate Turks.

    In short term no doubt Ukraine will loose economically from breaking away from Russian hegemony (and this is providing that putin does not go further rampaging in Ukraine). But in long term Ukrainian economy needs modernisation that Russia is not capable to provide. Ukraine does not have similar oil and gas reserves like Russia, so Russian economic model is not applicable to it.

  298. Resident Dissident

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:05 pm

    Uzbek

    You’re right we should just close them down. interesting that Putin sees confiscation of assets as a suitable punishment for those he dislikes.

  299. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:08 pm

    John Goss

    If you fished reading through these long quotations and before you started your brain work I just wanted to stress yet another point from the above quotations.

    “Узбекистан стратегически важен для Москвы по нескольким причинам. Контроль над этой страной поможет усилить российское влияние в граничащих с ней Киргизии и Таджикистане. А это усилит позиции России в ШОС: сколотив собственную команду из Ташкента, Бишкека и Душанбе, Москва сможет более уверенно разговаривать с сильным Пекином.

    Pure realism is not it? Who cares about hundred dead women and children massacred in Andijan when putin needed straighten his voice when talking to China.

  300. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:21 pm

    Resident Dissident

    It has always been in putin’s blood. In fact the first thing he did, even before he became president (as acting president since Yetsin’s resignation) is started to confiscate assets from russian oligarchs whom he felt threatening him. While Yeltsin employed (theoretically) Equal Distanced (Ravnoudalennuu) strategy (meaning that ever oligarch is equaly distanced from Kremlin), putin from first few months of his kremlin tenure started employing vertical of power strategy, meaning that he is at the top and everything (and everyone) else goes down bottom.

    When he was confident enough he confiscated or submitted to his control all media resources in Russia, putting an end to the free speech and diversity of opinions. All media resources started to urinate putin propaganda on Russian people and with establishment of RT to narrow minded, cliché limited MAD western lefties.

    Those who still opposed him (like Hodoskovski) or who criticised his policies (like Politkovskaya) have been dealt with KGB style. The latter as you know (since you referenced her earlier) was brutally murdered. I am interested how many MAD lefties here read her book Putin’s Russia?

  301. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:37 pm

    John Goss

    I now realise why do you support Orlov’s points of view.

    http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/

    “The EU, the USA and their blasted mother don’t recognize the referendum, yet in Kiev most people accept it and care little or nothing about it.

    It’s incredible that [the referendum] is more accepted here than in the rest of the world. Why don’t they leave these people alone, may I ask?

    Military neighbors, friends, colleagues, consider [the referendum] legit and understand it and accept it. The world that gives opinions about these people, doesn’t. Strange.]”

    Can I check with Mr Orlov how many people in Kiev he had questioned on so called “referendum” matter?

  302. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 1:23 pm

    “I believe that both Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel.”

    But as the Israeli State does not practice this, you presumably must agree with the highlighting of & criticism of exactly this when it is posted here ?

    BTW how goes the Jewish myth of Jews being the superior “Chosen People” factor into the Israeli State’s history of military aggression against its neighbours ? It this not a sort of chauvinism that you say that is inherent with Russians & explains its history ?

  303. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:49 pm

    Mark Golding

    I personally think that it would be good if all US officials are banned from travelling to Russia, as well as all US companies, all US charities, all US journalists, all US educational programmes, all US citizens (never mind that around 1 million of them of Russian/soviet origin). And the same goes with respect to EU.

    Although I will miss Bolshoi and having coffee at Bulgakov’s favourite table, I am confident that Russia will survive with no western contacts. Just like China did under Mao.

    Lets roll on Cold War paranoia. God I missed those mystery times.

  304. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:53 pm

    Macky

    I and my ancestors lived for over a century under Russian and not Jewish oppression and rule.

    I am confident I have better knowledge and can recognise more fully danger of Russian Chauvinism.

    Do you mind if I continue on commenting on what I am confident I know better and stop involving me into anti-Israeli conspiracy discussion?

    Ask Mr Murray to start another anti-Israeli thread and spit your bile there, please.

  305. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 10:56 pm

  306. Uzbek in the UK,

    Yes, I understand that nobody likes to be caught out on their inconsistencies, and irrational prejudices; I’m certain that the more discerning people who have followed your comments here, have already reached an accurate conclusion as to the type of person you are.

  307. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:12 pm

    Macky

    I prefer to comment on what I know better. Do you mind? I am asking again.

    I have several times stated my reaction to Israeli and Zionists wrong doings to Arabs (on other threads on this very blog), but I trust other people (who either originally from there or have been researching these problems objectively and not from one source) know better. I prefer to read their comments, read more from other sources where I think they might be inaccurate or prejudiced and then make up my mind. Comparing to my knowledge of Russia and its former colonies my knowledge of Middle East is unfortunately VERY limited. So for now I would prefer not to get involved in hot discussion on the matter of which I know very little and which is equally important to some people as matters of Russian Chauvinism and Hegemony to me.

  308. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:24 pm

    Sofia Kibo Noh

    Interesting but one sided. Please read below. And pay attention to the bold and then please read my comments further below.

    “But in effect Gorbachev capitulated; the USSR was dismembered and, over the course of the 1990s, Russia itself came close to being destroyed and dismembered. Although in the West, where he is still a popular figure, Gorbachev is credited with orchestrating a peaceful dissolution of the USSR, the chaotic aftermath of the collapse of the USSR was an extremely traumatic event, with massive loss of life. When Putin calls the collapse of the USSR “the largest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” he echoes the feelings of many Russians — who, by the way, like to call Gorbachev “Mishka mécheny” (“Mickey the marked”— marked by the devil, that is.)”

    Really? Saying this and not even a word of acknowledgement of massiveness of loss of lives during soviet rule? Hello? Comparing this too loss of lives during Stalin and also comparing dissolution of Yugoslavia to dissolution of USSR authors of this prejudiced publication should be very thankful to Mishka mecheny for his wisdom not to execute more people, like Slobodan did.

    The second bold text is fascinating. I have never hear of this explanation of Gorbache’s birth mark. Something new I learn every day indeed. Just like Raspuntin was blamed to be Devils agent by monarchists to save their Niki II from responsibilities of huge wrong doings, this unique explanation of Gorbachev’s birthmark is fascinating to me. And also equally nonsensed.

  309. Uzbek in the UK

    But you gave the impression that you were an expert on “Chauvinism”, and how it explains the history of a country; are you now saying that you are an expert on something but only if it exists in a very specific narrow situation, otherwise you know nothing about it ?!!

  310. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:27 pm

    Sofia Kibo Noh

    Sorry something went wrong with bolding. My second bold was referring to “marked by devil”.

    [Bolding fixed - it's "slash b", no spaces]

  311. Uzbek in the UK

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:36 pm

    Macky

    Chauvinism, although have something common (superiority over others) is actually very different indeed. To comment on Chauvinism one needs to study history of particular people/nation(s) very carefully and fully. My Claim of Russian Chauvinism is in fact product of my knowledge and first hand experience of it. I have never lived in Israel and my theoretical knowledge (as I have been saying again and again) is very limited. How would you expect me to comment anything about (as you proposed) Jewish chauvinism if I know almost nothing about it.

    Do you want then to point finger at me (like I have been doing to MAD western lefties) and expose my “ignorance” on this matter?

    I have actually been calling MAD western lefties to research Russian and its colonial history more carefully and more objectively before commenting on the recent development with Russian intervention to Ukraine. And here you want me to be antithesis to my own proposed thesis.

    Thank you. I am not that mad.

  312. Sofia Kibo Noh

    20 Mar, 2014 - 11:37 pm

    Orlov writes that Putin is portrayed as a fiend, and the West acts baffled and scared. The feigned shock with which the West looks on at the developments in Crimea could be seen as a tactic designed to isolate and intimidate Vladimir Putin. The fact that this tactic is not only not working but actually backfiring changes feigned shock into real shock: Western meds aren’t working any more—on itself or anyone else.

    Let’s compare Putin’s rampage in Ukraine with the humanitarian intervention in Libia.
    How many tons of high explosives detonated?
    How many bodies?
    How many traumatised orphans?

    And the aftermath.
    Rule of Law?
    Functioning social, physical and political infrastructure?

    As time passes we’ll be able to draw some conclusions from measurable indexes like infant mortality, life expectancy and literacy levels. No prizes for any genius who guesses it right.

    The “Leaders of the Free World” may mouth fine words, but the fruits of their actions consistently seem to be more human misery than before.

    Maybe the West could try leaving other nations to solve their own problems and turn their attention to solving their own?

  313. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 12:04 am

    Sofia;

    “The “Leaders of the Free World” may mouth fine words, but the fruits of their actions consistently seem to be more human misery than before”

    Is there no one who will defend Obama.?.. :) Biden? :(

  314. Uzbek in the UK

    I’m not asking you to furnish a academic multi-volumed dissertation on “Chauvinism & The Israeli Psyche” ! Instead, given the commonly accepted general dictionary definition of the word, which I trust you are familiar with, (otherwise you could not label the Russians as “chauvinists”), and because you made a comment that “Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel”, I am merely asking you if the Jewish belief of “Chooseness”, (just like the American notion of “Manifest Destiny”), can be considered as “chauvinistic” in your view ?

  315. Sofia Kibo Noh

    21 Mar, 2014 - 12:29 am

    Ben.

    I forgot Samantha Power. Here she is at the UN today.

    “The world is speaking out against the use of military threats and the use of force. Ukrainians must be allowed to determine their own destiny.”

    She managed to keep a straight face through it all. That’s what I call a class act!

    http://www.businessinsider.com/samantha-power-russia-ukraine-un-security-council-2014-3#ixzz2wYJUi35S

    Goodnight all.

  316. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 12:59 am

    Sofia;

    Obama has been disappointing because his strategy is 150 years old. Perhaps gems can be taken from the Past, but they we can also learn from cave painting; that doesn’t mean we swallow the flounder whole. Rather we should fillet and make a stock from the rest for a soup.

    Obama’s problem is that he studied Lincoln in a myopic trance which ‘blinded’ him from the necessity of context. This is not the 19th century.

    He’s made deals with too many to achieve his ‘good’ by purloining the quest for ‘perfect’, with rhetoric to attain power, then pursuing his own agenda of “Keeping your enemy Closer than your Friends’ again, culturally and morally obsequious behavior and thusly, more of the same.

    I think Capitalism is like Lincoln; good for it’s time, but now Obama and his Capitalistic supporters have had their time. Time to try something different.

  317. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 1:20 am

    Mark; When you get a chance. I was inspired to link to the RnR Hall of Fame performance wrt to Cream induction, and I thought of yerself. Ginger is muted (btw saw doc on him, (whatta guy!. His Iconoclasm is at least the equal of Hunter S. Thompson in another media)

    i thought Clapton disinterested, Jack was the best ever on this rendition. If you are within earshot; Enjoy!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CcbH3xjdBw

  318. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 1:37 am

    Beware Mr. Baker is the doc if you aren’t aware Mark.

  319. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 2:09 am

    When the judy Miller paper of record pronounces, I get worried….

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/opinion/how-to-punish-putin.html?pagewanted=all

  320. Sofia Kibo Noh

    21 Mar, 2014 - 7:42 am

    Ben.

    Thanks for the Cream. Great guitars!

    As for the nyt. Do they ever do any homework?

    That is the same Navalny who said in 2012 on Ukrainian TV that “Russian foreign policy should be maximally directed at integration with Ukraine and Belarus… In fact, we’re one nation. We should enhance integration.”

    What a flexible mind!

    From, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Navalny#2012_embezzlement_and_fraud_charges

  321. They are acting like primary school kids arguing over conkers.

    Ukraine Crisis: EU Sanctions For More Russians

    Twelve more people are now the subject of travel bans and asset freezes, as EU leaders prepare to sign a trade deal with Kiev.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1229470/ukraine-crisis-eu-sanctions-for-more-russians

  322. “Can I check with Mr Orlov how many people in Kiev he had questioned on so called “referendum” matter?”

    Well, Uzbek, you would have to check with him, not me. I probably have no more idea than you, unless you have questioned opinion there.

  323. This is likely to raise a few blood pressures. Just how has the western-backed coup backfired?

    http://rt.com/politics/putin-rating-crimea-peak-041/

  324. One rule for one, another for another. More of US hypocrisy.

    US a no-show for UN talks on covert drone wars

    THE USA is refusing to participate in UN Human Rights Council talks about greater accountability for human rights violations in covert drone wars.

    Foreign Policy reporter Colum Lynch, who broke the story Wednesday, says the U.S. is opting out of discussions about a draft Pakistani resolution aimed at the U.S. drone strikes. Lynch explains:

    The Pakistani draft, which was obtained by Foreign Policy, urges states to “ensure transparency” in record-keeping on drone strikes and to “conduct prompt, independent and impartial investigations whenever there are indications of any violations to human rights caused by their use.” It also calls for the convening of “an interactive panel discussion” on the use of drones.

    During the third round of talks on Wednesday about the resolution, the United States was notably absent. The boycott marks a shift from President Obama’s decision in 2009 to join the Human Rights Council after years of U.S. boycott at the behest of former President George W. Bush.

    Yet, the move is in keeping with the Obama administration’s diligent refusal to share public information about those U.S. drone wars and those killed in the attacks. A “modest” initiative in the U.S. Senate that would have forced the U.S. government to publicly report and identify those killed by U.S. drone strikes overseas failed last November.

    While the Obama administration has repeatedly claimed that civilian deaths in drone strikes are minimal, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism documents alarming rates of civilian deaths by covert U.S. attacks in Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Furthermore, in a 21-page report released earlier this month, UN special rapporteur on human rights Ben Emmerson identifies drone strikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Gaza in which civilians were killed, injured, or threatened in drone attacks by the U.S. and close ally Israel.

    The U.S. still has not answered for numerous high-profile attacks, including a December 2013 U.S. drone strike on a recent wedding procession in Yemen near the city of Rad’a that left 12 people dead and at least 15 wounded.

    The boycott of the talks comes as the U.S. escalates its covert drone war in Yemen, with at least seven suspected strikes in the first two weeks of March.

    /..
    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/03/20-2

    PS Why has Obama surrounded himself with these warlike harpies? Rice, Power, Nuland, Jones (in Oddie’s link) or did Shillary play a large part in the placements?

    I am ashamed to be of the same sex as them.

  325. A rarity, a MSM journalist speaking sense about the Russian/Ukraine situation & exposing Neil’s warmongering nonsense;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03yvwql/This_Week_20_03_2014/

  326. @Mary
    “One rule for one, another for another. More of US hypocrisy.
    US a no-show for UN talks on covert drone wars
    THE USA is refusing to participate in UN Human Rights Council talks about greater accountability for human rights violations in covert drone wars.”

    EXACTLY
    “Representative Democracy”(elected dictatorship) IS A SYSTEM OF HYPOCRACY
    The Tweedle Dum Tweedle Dee mudslinging muppet show!
    Centralised Authority is an IRRESPONSIBLE political system!
    It may KILL us all!!
    Politions will take NO RESPONSIBILITY for THIER actions.
    Look at the illegal and immoral wars , the illegal and immoral bailout and the paedophilia rings that continue today without any polition being arrested!
    WE voted for them ,will be thier response. They act like dictators NOT servants!
    People like Craig,who support representative democracy, will take NO RESPONSIBLITIY for the actions of leaders THEY disagree with!?
    Even though they support the political system that gave us these very leaders?..time after time after time.
    If you think repeating the action will produce a different result ,YOU ARE CLINICALLY INSANE!!
    Craig also thinks that tweedle dee is less evil than Tweedle Dum because Tweedle Dum does bad things.
    The FACT that Tweedle Dee does exactly the same bad things does not seem to matter.
    It then must be that Tweedle Dum is not Western or supports his percieved version of Westerness that is the REAL problem!
    The centralised authority,East or West, sees itself as infalible and the people it is supposed to represent,as expendable.
    Eventually ,if not held accountable for its actions, the centralised authority will feed on the very people it claimed to protect.
    The bigger they are the less democratic they become.
    I admit after the end of WWII there was a huge backlash against churchill and his cronies which saw the birth of the NHS and big improvements for the common man.
    I claim this happened DISPITE the centralised government ,it was a humanitarian movement not a government idea(it started in the Highlands)…the centralised

    government was the cause of its failure ,and it did not stop the centralised authority from carrying out alot of nasty business across the globe at this time and it

    only took the old guard a few years via the centralised authority to get back into power and to continue business as usual.
    Power Mad Politions will be the death of us! A centralised social power structure just enables them.
    Direct Democracy and holding politions accountable is the only way to stop the system repeating.
    Political parties and mudslinging will change nothing…because political parties and mudslinging is the problem!
    Political parties and mudslinging is the political system,East or West!!
    ..and it just creates chaos and ill will!!
    Humanity needs to focus on bettering itself and others and stop listening to war mongering ,mudslinging,sabre rattling ,snake oil selling politions and thier lackies.
    We are better than that

    And Craig,just in case you are reading this, may I quote you ..it was the quote that started me commenting on this issue!
    “CRAIG
    “The problem with people like you, Cuthulan, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Bush and Blair, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to
    support. ”

    No, Craig.
    The problem with people like you, Craig, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Putin, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support.
    ……in this case Neo Nazi war criminals!”

    Do you see what I mean now? Can YOU see your hypocracy?
    OR are you going to continue claiming thier are no Neo Nazis running this armed US financed insurrection in the Ukraine?
    …and continue to take NO RESPONSIBILITY for the actions of a political system YOU support!?!
    and continue just finger pointing at Tweedle dee?
    With representative democracy as the political system in East and West WHO DO YOU THINK WILL REPLACE HIM?
    Who will replace Cameron?…some benign Buddha like leader? …or just another corrupt power mad polition?
    Do you want to put some money on it?
    Come on guys WAKE UP!!!!
    It is just irresponsible and hypocritical at best!
    Its nonsense and its bullsh1t and it threatens the WHOLE OF LIFE ON EARTH!!!

    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/when-libertarians-realise-thier-socialist-roots-and-socialists-rediscover-thier-libertarian-values-we-the-people-will-change-

    the-world-and-this-will-be-change-we-can-believe-in/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/when-left-and-right-unite-the-future-will-be-bright-things-we-all-agree-on/

    YOU WANT CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN
    SUPPORT DIRECT (TRUE)DEMOCRACY
    END THE POLITICAL ELECTED DICTATORSHIP(REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY)
    EAST AND WEST ,NORTH AND SOUTH!!!
    POLITIONS ARE THE PROBLEM
    NOT THE SOLUTION!

  327. Uzbek in the UK
    20 Mar, 2014 – 3:10 pm

    “Can I please have your opinion on whether or not you trust historical evidence to support claims of Holocaust?”

    I have no problems with the Holocaust history.

  328. @Doug, it turns out that there was no need to answer Uzbek’s question, it was obviously just a cheap & nasty smearing attempt.

  329. Vladimir Putin mocked Western sanctions on Friday morning, as David Cameron said the EU planned to cut Russia’s strangehold on Europe’s gas supply.

    Mr Putin was reported to have claimed he will open a bank account at a sanction-hit bank and joked he will steer clear of allies on a list of people facing sanctions as they are “compromising us.”

    Soon afterwards, UK prime minister Mr Cameron revealed he was very happy with measures that EU leaders had drawn up overnight.

    Among them was a pledge to reduce dependence on gas from Russia which currently accounts for 25% of all that used in the continent.

    He said gas from US shale beds, extracted by fracking, and other so-far untapped European sources will increasingly replace Russian supplies.

    /..
    http://news.sky.com/story/1229470/putin-mocks-sanctions-for-russians-over-crimea

    As somebody else asked, was it all about making a market for US shale gas? Trouble is there is no suitable port on the East Coast!

  330. Former U.S. Ambassador: Behind Crimea Crisis, Russia Responding to Years of “Hostile” U.S. Policy

    AMY GOODMAN: To talk more about the growing crisis in Ukraine, we’re joined by Ambassador Jack Matlock. He served as U.S. ambassador to Moscow from 1987 to 1991. He’s the author of several books, including Reagan and Gorbachev: How the Cold War Ended. He recently wrote a column for The Washington Post headlined “The U.S. Has Treated Russia Like a Loser Since the End of the Cold War.”

    Ambassador Matlock, welcome to Democracy Now! Talk about the situation right now, what has just taken place, Ukraine now pulling out of Crimea.

    JACK MATLOCK JR.: Well, I think that this rhetoric on both sides is being very unhelpful. The fact is, Russia now has returned Crimea to Russia. It has been, most of its recent history, in the last couple of centuries, been Russian. The majority of the people are Russian. They clearly would prefer to be in Russia. And the bottom line is, we can argue ’til doomsday over who did what and why and who was the legal and who was not—I’m sure historians generations from now will still be arguing it—but the fact is, Russia now is not going to give up Crimea. The fact also is, if you really look at it dispassionately, Ukraine is better off without Crimea, because Ukraine is divided enough as it is. Their big problem is internal, in putting together disparate people who have been put together in that country. The distraction of Crimea, where most of the people did not want to be in Ukraine and ended up in Ukraine as a result of really almost a bureaucratic whim, is—was, I think, a real liability for Ukraine…

    …fundamentally, it’s going to be the Ukrainians who have to put their society back together. It is seriously broken now. And it seems to me they could take a leaf from the Finns, who have been very successful ever since World War II in putting together a country with both Finns and Swedes, by treating them equally, by being very respectful and careful about their relations with Russia, never getting into—anymore into military struggles or allowing foreign bases on their land. And they’ve been extremely successful. Why can’t the Ukrainians follow a policy of that sort? I think, for them, it would work, too. But first, they have to find a way to unite the disparate elements in Ukraine; otherwise, these pressures from Russia, on the one hand, and the West, on the other, is going to simply tear them apart.

    /..
    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/20/fmr_us_ambassador_behind_crimea_crisis

  331. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 3:30 pm

    “He said gas from US shale beds, extracted by fracking, and other so-far untapped European sources will increasingly replace Russian supplies.”

    It’s a bluff, Mary. The US has only 2 CNG ports operational. They are playing ketchup with plans for many more, but this is gonna take years.

  332. Mod Ref http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/comment-page-2/#comment-447843

    I thought that there was a moderation policy of deleting personal, ad hominem type inflammatory comments.

    [craigmurray.org.uk - done. Such comments are deleted when found.]

  333. The Ukrainian US stooge sits between David ‘Smoothface’ Cameron and the EU’s Rumpy Pumpy.
    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73722000/jpg/_73722994_u9wofd0l.jpg

    EU seals closer ties with Ukraine
    Acting Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk: “This treaty shows Ukraine shares European values”

    The EU and Ukraine have signed an agreement forging closer economic ties, in a show of support following Russia’s annexation of Crimea.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26680250

  334. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 4:30 pm

    Mad Lefties! the below is for your information.

    “Boys from another school pulled out the severed head of a classmate while fishing in a pond. His whole family had died. Had they eaten him first? Or had he survived the deaths of his parents only to be killed by a cannibal? No one knew; but such questions were commonplace for the children of Ukraine in 1933. . . . Yet cannibalism was, sometimes, a victimless crime. Some mothers and fathers killed their children and ate them. … But other parents asked their children to make use of their own bodies if they passed away. More than one Ukrainian child had to tell a brother or sister: ‘Mother says that we should eat her if she dies.’ ”

    Timothy Snyder, “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin”

  335. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 4:41 pm

    Macky

    Easy mate. Unlike some, I do not live on this blog.

    I support one state solution in Israeli-Palestinian conflict. State where both Jews and Arabs have equal rights and responsibilities.

  336. This is a fascinating read

    “How Cold War-Hungry Neocons Stage Managed RT Anchor Liz Wahl’s Resignation”

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/how_cold_war-hungry_neocons_stage_managed_liz_wahls_resignation_20140319

  337. Oh Uzbek in the UK, you’ve changed your mind about giving us the benefit of your views on this the following then;

    “I’m not asking you to furnish a academic multi-volumed dissertation on “Chauvinism & The Israeli Psyche” ! Instead, given the commonly accepted general dictionary definition of the word, which I trust you are familiar with, (otherwise you could not label the Russians as “chauvinists”), and because you made a comment that “Arabs and Jews must be given the same right in the state of Israel”, I am merely asking you if the Jewish belief of “Chooseness”, (just like the American notion of “Manifest Destiny”), can be considered as “chauvinistic” in your view ?”

  338. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 5:19 pm

    Speaking of neocons, Dre…(x-posted from other thread)

    I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking ‘misdirection’.

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/20-2

    “Then came an unexpected turn of events calling that story deeply into question. On March 7 Americans began to drown in a deluge of headlines pointing them thousands of miles from Ukraine, to Malaysia, where Flight 370 had inexplicably vanished.

    Ever since, the mystery of 370 has at least rivaled, and more often eclipsed, Ukraine in U.S. news headlines — even in our most respected elite news sources. Ten days after it disappeared, Flight 370 still held five of the top six spots on the New York Times website’s “most viewed” list, while Ukraine limped in at numbers 8 and 9. Over at the Washington Post site, the missing flight took two of the top four spots on “Post Most” (and an impending snowstorm held the other two). No sign of Ukraine at all.”

  339. Ben, Mary

    Yes the USA is still a net importer of natural gas.

    http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/natgas.cfm?src=Natural-b1

    Several companies are planning to build liquefaction capacity to export LNG from the United States. Cheniere Energy’s Sabine Pass facility is planned to be the first to liquefy natural gas produced in the Lower 48 states for export. The facility has a total liquefaction capacity of 3 Bcf/d and is scheduled to come online in stages beginning in late 2015.

    Growing domestic production over the past several years has displaced some pipeline imports from Canada, while exports to Mexico have increased. EIA expects these trends will continue through 2015. EIA projects net imports of 3.6 Bcf/d in 2014 and 2.6 Bcf/d in 2015, which would be the lowest level since 1987. Over the longer term, the EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2014 projects the United States will be a net exporter of natural gas beginning in 2018.

    So the export terminals don’t exist and the US is still a net importer of natural gas (from Canada). The US officially projects they will become a net exporter in 2018. Even if you believe that it is a lot of time for Europe to wait.

    Oh and take a look at current US natural gas stocks.

    http://ir.eia.gov/ngs/ngs.html

    Working gas in storage was 953 Bcf as of Friday, March 14, 2014, according to EIA estimates. This represents a net decline of 48 Bcf from the previous week. Stocks were 932 Bcf less than last year at this time and 876 Bcf below the 5-year average of 1,829 Bcf. In the East Region, stocks were 399 Bcf below the 5-year average following net withdrawals of 35 Bcf. Stocks in the Producing Region were 351 Bcf below the 5-year average of 742 Bcf after a net withdrawal of 11 Bcf. Stocks in the West Region were 126 Bcf below the 5-year average after a net drawdown of 2 Bcf. At 953 Bcf, total working gas is below the 5-year historical range.

    Check the storage chart at http://ir.eia.gov/ngs/ngs.gif

    Natural gas inventories end the heating season below one trillion cubic feet for the first time since 2003

  340. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 6:03 pm

    Squonk/AA; Yeah. Two months ago my propane guy was predicting $5 per gal, but it’s held steady at less than 3. Polar vortex in the East and Midwest was the sucking sound.

  341. Ben,

    Note that propane is considered a liquid by the industry and is lumped alongside oil production in “Total Liquids and not natural gas production. The US is of course a net importer of propane as well. See http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WPRIM_NUS-Z00_2&f=W

    Looks like there was a brief spike of consumer propane price to $4/gallon

    http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_NUS_DPG&f=W

    Average US consumer propane price $3.08/gallon as of 17th March according to EIA.

  342. Uzbek in the UK, I agree that Macky is quite mad. You can see what I mean in the argument linked; look further back as well if you wish, s/he’s been at it for days, possibly weeks now:

    https://squonk.tk/blog/2014/01/20/the-general-discussion-thread/comment-page-8/#comment-4550

  343. “I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking ‘misdirection’.”

    Well, at least, Ben, people here can keep more than one story in their heads at the same time!

  344. Has/have the mod(s) noticed that I am being channelled again. Smutty too.

    eg
    “PS Why has Obama surrounded himself with these warlike harpies? Rice, Power, Nuland, Jones (in Oddie’s link) or did Shillary play a large part in the placements?

    I am ashamed to be of the same sex as them.”
    _______________________

    In that case, dear MARY, I would recommend a sex change operation. You might have to go private, though.

  345. Keith Crosby

    21 Mar, 2014 - 8:00 pm

    Are your objections to Putin that he’s a baddie or that he’s the same as mountebanks like Obama and his satraps?

  346. Resident Dissident

    21 Mar, 2014 - 9:01 pm

    Perhaps the Putinistas might wish to comment on the appearance of this neo Nazi on their favourite TV channel.

    http://www.interpretermag.com/rts-manuel-ochsenreiter/

    I look forward to their invasion of the RT studios in response.

  347. Resident Dissident

    21 Mar, 2014 - 9:12 pm

    For all those who assured us that the Russians, including Putin in his recent speech, would protect the rights of the Crimean Tatars please note that their leader has now been declared persona non grata.

    Do our resident Putinistas care?

  348. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:05 pm

    Clark

    This explains your absence from this forum. I see you have been having your own battles with one of THESE lately.

  349. Lots of wargames coming up and current, in Bulgaria, Poland, and Ukraine itself. Surely the US isn’t even thinking it. Surely not…

    Questions: How many American military bases are there around the world? How much of their profits do companies such as Pepsico (Pizza Hut) make in these bases, many of which seem to have fast food outlets? This is aside from companies such as KBR, Bechtel, Halliburton and the arms companies of course.

    Just a thought.

    I’m lovin’ it.

    I’m shootin’ it.

    I lose a leg in the process.

  350. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:19 pm

    Macky

    I have never said that I was expert on Chauvinism but I certainly know a LOT about RUSSIAN Chauvinism. I also said that my knowledge of Middle East is very limited comparing to my knowledge of Russia and its former colonies.

    I was asked whether I was Zionist and my views on one or two state solutions in Arab-Israeli conflict. I have responded to both questions and yet despite my resistance to continue being dragged into discussion on the matter of which I know very little you are trying to provoke me further and further.

    Is this your tactic?

    This particular Thread is about Putin’s speech which derives from recent Russian intervention to Ukraine and Anschluss of Crimea. Please stick to the thread’s topic.

  351. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:30 pm

    It is actually fascinating to see how some MAD lefties on this forum who blame current US government (as they said White Father) for genocide against American Indians at the same time turn their blind eye on another GENOCIDED ethnogroup – Crimean Tatars.

    MAD lefties, how many of you know what happened to Crimean Tatars between 1921 and 1944?

    Providing you answer to the previous question with some sensible knowledge

    MAD lefties, who to blame for what has happened to Crimean Tatars?

    In particular I would LOVE to hear from John Goss, Macky, Doug Scorgie, Ben, Squonk and Mike.

    Mary and Sofia Kibo Noh I would be grateful to hear your opinion too.

    Thanks.

  352. The short answer, Uzbek: A nasty, paranoid, murderous regime did that to the Tatars.

    A world away from the human sunburst that happened in 1917. That showed us, briefly, what ordinary people can achieve when they are set free from the profit motive. Then the psychopaths and bureaucrats came along and fucked it all up.

    How many deaths have America been responsible for since 1945?

  353. ‘Scuse the grammar.

    The weekend swallee is flowing.

  354. @Richard

    Yeah, I spat my tea when Kerry said “You don’t invade countries on trumped up motives in the 21st Century” or thereabouts.

    These US Global Gangster Fucktards must think we’ve all forgotten about Iraq and half a dozen other illegal Wars in the last 14 years. Putin may be a Gangster too, but at least he’s not insulting my intelligence.

  355. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 10:51 pm

    Kempe

    Russians have cleansed at least 100.000 Chechens in the most recent history already (since 1993). Remember that both Chechens and Crimean Tatars have been treated particularly harshly by Russians ever since Russians have taken over their lands. The last time Crimean Tatars many Crimean Tatars have been sent to certain death was between 1942 and 1944 (this is excluding forced starvation between 1921 and 1923). Chechens have been deported by Stalin in 1944.

    Following this historical parallels it is (unfortunately) time for Crimean Tatars to be cleansed again. I expect inter-ethnic provocations from Russians against Crimean Tatars and as result another wave of harsh treatment of the latter. Russians hate when any of the minority groups have true knowledge of their heritage and their history which in most cases ultimately come across harsh treatment by Russians and as result prevents these minority groups to be fed common propaganda about kind and caring Russian brothers who saved these minorities from (choose) Mongols, Chinese, Arabs, Turks, Germans, Swedish. The others so called late joiners (like Central Asians for example) were spoon fed another type of propaganda about culturally and morally more developed Russian brothers who came to these (Central Asian) lands to educate and modernise these barbarian people.

    I fear for Crimean Tatars, I fear for Ukrainians, I fear for Moldovans, I fear for Kazakhs I fear for Azerbaijanians and I ultimately fear for anyone whose lands putin has already drown into borders of New Russian Empire.

  356. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:01 pm

    Mike

    What I POOR demonstration of knowledge of Russian/soviet history. Do you know that Stalin was Lenin’s right hand since early 1900s. Have you heard of his nickname Koba? Do you know that Stalin before he became Stalin was robbing banks and trains and putting the money into Communist Party, so that Lenin could comfortably design his future (fuck all these Russians and who else Romanov’s rule) plan?

    Have you heard about Red Terror? It was initiated by Lenin in order to consolidate his power and get rid of so called white elements. I quoted both infamous Lenin’s quotes on this blog.

    Mike, please for goodness sake read something on Russian history. It is fascinating how many of YOU write here in support of Putin NOT knowing where his policies are coming from and (most likely) where these policies are leading.

  357. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:04 pm

    OrwellianUK

    “Putin may be a Gangster too, but at least he’s not insulting my intelligence.”

    Of course putin is not insulting your inteligence. Something that does not exist (at least when comes to knowing what putin is) cannot be insulted.

    Well Done. George Orwell (if was alive) would be proud of you.

  358. I have read about the 170,000 allied troops that invaded Russia in 1918/19 in a vain attempt to support Admiral Kolchak’s whites.

    I also know Stalin was a cunt.

    My question still stands.

    But I’ll read the answer tomorrow, if I may.

    Peace and love, Uzbek.

  359. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:34 pm

    John Goss

    You said “This is likely to raise a few blood pressures. Just how has the western-backed coup backfired? and then AGAIN gave link to RT http://rt.com/politics/putin-rating-crimea-peak-041/

    I say, just like Hitler’s rating after Annexation of Sudetland
    By the way, do you see any methodological commonalities between these two?

    Some info on how Hitler worked http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=87

  360. Uzbek in the UK

    21 Mar, 2014 - 11:39 pm

    Mike

    Yet again, cruelty of one you are trying to excuse by cruelty of other.

    So called cunt Stalin was in fact one of the military leaders of Red Terror. Have you heard of Battle of Caricin and its aftermath.

  361. Uzbek in the UK, 21 Mar, 10:05 pm, indeed, and I see what you’re up against. I tried something similar myself once, arguing for the rationing of hydrocarbon extraction on a global warming denial blog. This is probably where the knives start coming out:

    http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/clark-energy-resources-and-the-future/comment-page-1/#comment-12538

  362. Uzbek In The UK

    Are you falling for the infantile fallacy of two wrongs making a right ? Does what happened to the Crimean Tatars, make Western meddling decades later, in the Ukraine situation right !

    Anybody can pick out massacres from history & say “how many of you know what happened to.”

    for example, the Poles in the Volhynia Massacre, ?

    BTW Have you still nothing to say about the Chooseness” of the Jews, or the “Manifest Destiny” doctrine of the Americans, in connection with Chauvinism ?

  363. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 7:54 am

    Uzbek. 10 30pm

    You know as well as anyone else here “who to blame for what has happened to Crimean Tatars?”

    Mike gave you the short answer, which really says it all. “A nasty, paranoid, murderous regime did that to the Tatars.”

    You can shout as much as you like about “MAD lefties” if that helps you but it won’t alter the facts. Of course the Soviet government bears the blame for the starving of 100,000+ Tatars, the brutal killing and deportations during the collectivisations of the late 1920s, the engineered famine of 1931-33, and the final deportation of 1944. Yes, the Tatars suffered more in proportion to their total population than other persecuted minorities under the Soviet system, even the Ukrainians. There will never be any excuse.

    It is no surprise that Tatars, as a group, feel hostile to all things Russian, but do you really wish to see present day ethnic Russians collectively punished for Stalinist sins? Thank goodness present day Tatars don’t and it appears that many cast votes for integrating with Russia rather than being ruled by the Nuland’s coup thugs.

    The Tatars got their Awda. Lets hope the Palestinians get theirs before another seventy years pass. http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Autumn.htm

    My heart goes out to all Uzbeks who, supported by elites both east and west, live and die under the present brutal regime. Your status as one of it’s victims, whether real or contrived, gives you some protection from the ridicule that your frequent intemperate outbursts invite.

    To label as “MAD lefties” all those who question your visceral hatred of all things Russian does you no favours. Though I don’t particularly mind being included in this group, I would respect you and your posts more if you could point me to sound sources of information to back your views.

    It’s a lovely morning here, frost covers the mountains with a hoary mantle and I’m off to make the most of the day. I know a fake adolescent MAD leftie troll is the last person you’d usually want to take advice from, but here it is anyway. Please take a walk under the beautiful sky that we all share….breath deep….take a break from all the horrors….then let’s get back to the business of making a world where humanity and respect for each other and the rule of law are the norm.

  364. The BBC: Washington’s Mouthpiece — Paul Craig Roberts

    March 16, 2014

    Paul Craig Roberts

    Once upon a time the BBC was a news organization, but that was before the organization sold out to Washington. Today the BBC is a liar for Washington. Indeed, the BBC is a despicable organization that believes that “exceptional, indispensable” Washington has the right to determine the fate of all peoples.

    The proof is everywhere. Just look here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26606097

    The BBC says that the referendum in Crimea is disputed. But by whom? Not by the people voting. The dispute comes from the anti-democratic forces that are not voting–the Obama regime and its puppet UK government and puppet BBC ministry of propaganda.

    How far the BBC has fallen! Look as these BBC lies:

    Lie: “Many Crimeans loyal to Kiev boycotted the referendum, and the EU and US condemned it as illegal.”

    Fact: More than 80% voted and the vote was 96% against Washington. So who precisely boycotted the vote, and how could it have made any difference? The BBC doesn’t care. The BBC’s job is to lie for Washington. Let’s assume that the 20% of voters who did not turn out would all have voted against rejoining Russia. That 20% together with the 4% who did vote not to rejoin Russia could give a vote of 24% against and 76% for. So, despite the BBC’s utterly dishonest attempt to suggest that it wasn’t a majority vote, it would have made no difference whatsoever if the vote turnout had been 100% instead of 80%.

    Lie: “Pro-Russian forces took control of Crimea in February.”

    Fact: Anyone who would repeat this Washington lie at this stage is totally devoid of all integrity. Crimeans took control of their destiny. Crimeans refused to let Washington and its corrupt British puppet take control of Crimea’s destiny. Crimeans stood up to the lies and intimidation coming out of Washington and its two-bit punk NATO puppets. Crimeans gave the finger to the utterly corrupt West.

    /..
    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/16/bbc-washingtons-mouthpiece-paul-craig-roberts/

  365. I am entitled to my own opinion. I do not like being cross questioned here as if it is some court of law. Especially not in bold font.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/comment-page-2/#comment-447950

    [craigmurray.org.uk - Uzbek in the UK got the bold closing tags wrong - bold font continued to the end of the paragraph.]

  366. I normally find myself in agreement with Craig Murray ,BUT not on this occasion!
    A couple of points that I would like to make clear.
    As Craig Murray seems to believe that the Crimea is Ukrainian..WRONG!
    Its Russian.
    The vote was undemocratic/untimely WRONG ,
    it would be vote or fight I think,and voting is better than fighting!
    and Independant observers refied the vote!
    The Russian military invaded the Ukraine…A LIE!

    The Crimea has always been Russian!
    We even had a Crimean War against…..no not the Ukrainians ,it was the Russians!
    “the [Crimean] peninsula reverted to Russia as it was before 1954, when Communist Party leader Khrushchev passed it to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic.”

    The vote was a landslide in favour from ALL ethnic groups!
    Observers where there during the voting.
    The poll was moved up to Sunday, March 16. Even before it could take place, the Crimean Parliament declared Crimea’s independence. The poll’s results were spectacular: 96% of the votes were for joining Russia; the level of participation was unusually high – over 84%. Not only ethnic Russians, but ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars voted for reunification with Russia as well.

    There was NO RUSSIAN INVASION!!!
    The marines Russia had based in Crimea by virtue of an international agreement (just as the US has marines in Bahrain) secured Crimea’s airports and roadblocks, provided necessary support to the volunteers of the Crimean militia (called Self-Defence Forces), but remained under cover. The Crimean parliament asserted its autonomy and promised a plebiscite in a month time.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimea-putins-triumph-now-the-confrontation-moves-east-to-new-russia/5374710

    I am NOT a Putin supportter or a “putinista” as Craig pathetically calls them, therefore Craig must be a “cameronista” or is it a “cleggonista”?
    Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee ,Can you tell the difference?
    BUT the West IS the aggressor in this case!
    ..and backing Neo-Nazis and those willing to sell Ukraines resouses for power.
    This is NOT a unique situation
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/all-wars-are-bankers-wars-politions-are-just-thier-cheerleaders/
    Here is the history behind this confrontation.
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/a-short-history-of-global-domination-or-rockefella-rothschild-and-the-capitalist-communist-nwo-con/

    BUT IF any side will START a war it will be the Western powers!
    The East is swimming in wealth and resourses
    The West is bankrupt! ..unofficially since 2010!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/is-the-us-already-bankrupt-and-trading-in-fake-gold/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/u-s-bankrupt-its-official-china-to-take-over-us-assets-bp-final-nail-in-us-economic-coffin-is-war-the-only-us-way-out/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/its-official-the-economy-will-recover-when-pigs-fly/
    The West has massive political corruptions being investigated ,bailouts ,paedophilia ,as well as anti-government demonstrations
    and all this political theft has not worked!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/rbs-has-lost-all-the-46bn-pumped-in-by-the-taxpayer/
    BUT who would put thier money into an UNPROFITABLE AND CORRUPT BANK RUN BY FRAUDSTERS?!?!?
    Cut Benefits to Bankers, Not Public Services
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/end-the-theft-with-direct-democracy/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/12/20/do-we-even-need-a-banking-sector-not-any-more/
    WESTERN POLITIONS STAND TO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY IF WAR STARTS
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/10/12/us-government-making-a-killing-on-war/
    AND JUST AS PREDICTED THE ONLY WESTERN ECONOMIC SOLUTION IS WAR
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/is-america-on-the-path-to-permanent-war-beware-false-flags-and-fake-war-for-unreal-profit/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/01/26/death-squads-for-democracy-on-tour-coming-to-a-city-near-you/
    WE BROUGHT SHARIA LAW TO THE SECULAR DIRECT DEMOCRACY OF LYBIA!!..and stole 300 tonnes of gold!!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/libya-a-genocidal-war-crime-that-nato-is-loosing-the-named-shamed-and-blamed/
    WE are trying to bring Sharia Law to the secular socialist Syria, even if we have to GAS THEM!!..we need to sell thier nationalised resourses!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/08/31/islamic-terrorist-rebels-admit-chemical-gas-attack-supplied-by-saudi-arabia/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/us-to-provide-military-aid-to-al-quada-and-other-war-criminalsas-the-war-against-secular-socialism-continues/
    IRAN is about its Oil Bourse, it sells oil in non-dollars!!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/iranian-oil-bourse-the-real-reason-for-war-with-iran/
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/america-is-running-the-worlds-largest-terrorist-operation-experts-on-the-left-and-the-right-agree/
    Look out for any excuse for a Western triggered smash and grab!
    A war will get the population behind the centralised power again, it means draconian emergency laws, it means making a lot of money!
    for a centralised authority polition ,it looks like a good and the only way out!
    EAST OR WEST BEWARE YOUR LYING POLITIONS
    and others that beat the drums of war!!

    [This comment was automatically held for moderation by the software because it contains 12 or more links.]

  367. It is also immaterial what I and others think about Ukraine and Crimea. The powers-that-be, that is the EU, the US, the UN, Russia, NATO etc will do as they decide. Just hope we don’t have any more real wars, apart from the current war of words that is.

  368. Uzbek in the UK 21 Mar, 2014 – 11:39 pm

    I can’t really add much to what Macky and Sofia Kibo Noh have said. I think, as with your support for the Timoshenko and NATO-backed illegal coup in Ukraine, you are blind to any alternative points of view becasue of your hatred for all things Russian. When I believe I caught ESLO and Resident Dissident sock-puppeting one another and questioned how this might be achieved while giving different IP addresses I was diagnosed as being ‘paranoid’ by somebody who clearly has no medical background as a slur. Being diagnosed as MAD is probably even more insulting. The truth of 9/11 is what is being covered up by the United States in its pursuit of world domination. You get it in privately-made western documentaries too. People, especially relatives, want to know what the US is covering up, but they, like their puppet ‘government’ in the Ukraine, do not believe in inquiries in case the truth gets out. This is Russia Today, one of the better news channels. I agree it has bias but then sensible questions asked should be addressed whoever asks them.

    http://xposethereal.com/russia-today-declares-911-was-an-inside-job.html

  369. I should have added too that Dr Resident Dissident also blamed my paranoia on why I hold such outrageous conspiracy theories like that linked in my last comment.

  370. Back to Ukraine. Does anyone know about OCSE whose ‘observers’ have not been given entry to Crimea? I know nothing about them. Is it another faceless EU NATO-linked organization.

    Their areas of interest.http://www.osce.org/where/108301

  371. You can probably guess who’s behind it Mary.

    http://www.osce.org/who/108210

    Participating States
    The Organization comprises 57 participating States that span the globe, encompassing three continents – North America, Europe and Asia – and more than a billion people.

  372. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 9:52 am

    Am I the only one here who finds Macky’s twisting of Uzbek’s words (which are written in his second language) and his constant bullying somewhat unseemly.

    While Macky is on the subject of massacres perhaps he might wish to acknowledge those undertaken by Milosevic’s thugs on the Kosovans well before the NATO action, which he previously glossed over/ignored in his usual one sided analysis. I also wonder if he shares the view of his hero Galloway that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest catastrophe of his life.

  373. Mary, it’s a US-led attempt to f**k up former Soviet-allied countries under the pretence of making them more secure. About as secure as the twin towers if you ask me.

    http://osce.usmission.gov/usandosce.html

  374. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:01 am

    “Back to Ukraine. Does anyone know about OCSE”

    Please read Craig’s thoughts about them and their report on Yanukovych’s election on an earlier thread.

  375. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:03 am

    “This is Russia Today, one of the better news channels.”

    That just happens to give a platform to neo Nazis

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/comment-page-2/#comment-447931

  376. Thank you Mary for the Paul Craig Roberts link, it perfectly complements this Robert Parry article;

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/16/mainstream-us-media-is-lost-in-ukraine/

    (h/t to glenn_uk over at Squonk)

  377. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:13 am

    John Goss

    Your latest accusation against me really is ridiculous – my comment was quite clearly about you being paranoid in relation to your claim of my having 2 computers and ISPs and inferring that I was in the pay of someone who put my handle on the computer – it was not a diagnosis of your general mental condition. There is a difference which you may or may not appreciate.

  378. Have you noticed how they always use diversionary tactics? Instead of arguing against the content of Russia Today’s demolition of the US government propaganda, RD. Do not be distracted. If you are going to engage it/them. Make it/them answer. You’ll be lucky if you get them to address. Here are three other links (western) which together show there should be an inquiry into 9/11. As ever it is the victims who are looking for answers.

    Aaron Russo’s interview with Alex Jones (not the singer/actress) is a good place to start because Aaron was Jewish (he was probably dying from cancer when he did this interview. It is short.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZjKKUEHTKk

    Then there is General Wesley Clark’s interview. It is even shorter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTdx1nPu3k

    As to the evidence. It lasts much longer but is well worth watching.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAztWC5sT8

  379. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:25 am

    Perhaps Sofia and those interested in the Crimean Tatars might like to give their thoughts on the leader of the Crimean Tatars not being allowed entry into the Crimea. Or is this just another abuse of minority rights by Putin that they will wilfiully ignore?

  380. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:30 am

    Have you noticed how they always use diversionary tactics?

    I think you will find that I raised the question of neo Nazis on Russia Today last night – so it is you who is employing diversionary tactics or just being so arrogant to think that you can dictate the terms of the debate. BTW I didn’t notice that this was a 911 thread – throw a diversion and then accuse others who don’t respond of employing diversionary tactics, you’ll be accusing me of hypocrisy next.

  381. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:49 am

    Perhaps Putin should worry more about the Nazis and racists at home that seem to flourish under his regime

    http://www.interpretermag.com/xenophobia-in-russia-at-an-all-time-high-experts-say/

  382. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 – 10:30 am

    Sorry RD it is you again doing the same trick. You said it was due to my paranoia that it was no wonder I believed in conspiracy theories. ‘Conspiracy theory’ is a ridiculous term anyway when applied to an alternative argument. You would do well to get some alternative points of view instead of trotting out the same nonsense, comment after comment. Address the issue! Put up or shut up!

  383. I think everyone should pressure Resident Dissident about his views on 9/11. Considering 85% of Americans do not believe the government story. He’s so full of himself but if you try to pin him down on a particular issue he diverts.

    Resident Dissident, do you believe the official story of 9/11.

  384. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:26 am

    Orlov reposts a Ukrainian’s view here. A month old and rather long-winded, but, given what has transpired since writing, bursting with food for thought.

    http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/shock-over-ukraine.html#more

  385. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:33 am

    John. 11 23am

    You are very sweet and patient with RD.

    You know what it is for.

    You’d have more luck arguing with a Pepsi machine.

  386. 10.33

    Thanks Sofia, I know I’m not alone in this. How was your walk? The dogs took me for a two mile jog. I’m knackered, but getting knackered was all done under a beautiful sky, which has turned a little threatening now.

  387. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:45 am

    “You said it was due to my paranoia that it was no wonder I believed in conspiracy theories.”

    No I didn’t – I said “You really are quite paranoid – no wonder you fall for conspiracy theories so easily.” this was in response to various theories you had put forward about myself. I did not diagnose you as being medically paranoid as you are claiming somewhat ridiculously.

    Yes I believe Al Quaeda was responsible for 9/11, I also don’t believe that the Rothschilds control the world – but I am not going to debate these subjects with you yet again – now could you get back to the subject of this thread rather than playing diversionary and hypocriticalgames.

  388. Sofia 11.33 typo.

  389. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:48 am

    So Sofia what are your views on Neo Nazis being given a platform on RT, Racism within Putin’s Russia and Putin’s banning of the Crimean Tatar leader from the Crimea, despite saying he was going to respect the rights of Crimean Tatars earlier in the week. Or are you also just an object incapable of rational argument?

  390. Resident Dissident 22 Mar, 2014 – 11:45 am

    That’s not good enough just to say I believe Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. It’s a cop out. You do not watch what you call conspiracy theories or argue against them. Anybody can make a cursory statement and say there I’ve said it, it’s true, but it does not address any of the facts found in your idea of conspiracy theory, which has the same foundation as your repetition of the global western buzz-phrase “land-grab”.

  391. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:58 am

    http://www.interpretermag.com/why-are-you-silent/

    A question that the Putinistas would also do well to consider – especially Mr Goss who is so voluble in criticising Theresa May (yes he called her a fascist) for far less offensive behaviour, but now employs a combination of silence and diversionary tactics when it comes to Mad (rhetorical not a medical diagnosis) Vlad.

  392. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 12:02 pm

    “You do not watch what you call conspiracy theories or argue against them.”

    I do watch – and I even read Mr Aaronovich’s excellent book on them. I also argue against them as well – as you know only too well – but there becomes a time when you see enough evidence to reach a firm view as I have done with 9/11 a long time ago.

    Please stop you diversionary tactics this is not a 9/11 thread – there are other topics relevant to this thread on the table that you continue to ignore. Your behaviour at present amounts to classic trolling.

  393. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 Mar, 2014 - 12:20 pm

    RD.

    I’ve seen your posts for long enough to know you are not really here to contribute. I won’t be drawn into your endless, “your fascists / massacres / etc” are worse than mine pantomime.

    If you want to know my views on these matters, for what they are worth, there are plenty there. Just look back.

    John.

    Thanks. My first walk… beautiful….so much so that I’m off again..life too short to bury myself in the blogosphere today!

  394. Resident Dissident; “Am I the only one here who finds Macky’s twisting of Uzbek’s words (which are written in his second language) and his constant bullying somewhat unseemly”

    I do beg your pardon for only just now noticing that you have made comments about me, as opposed to being made to me !

    Re your concern for the gentle “MAD Lefties” shrieking Uzbek, here a little summary of our little discussion, in very simple language that I’m sure you can follow, and then made some enlightening thoughts about;

    Uzbek claims Russians are especially & inherently bad (chauvinistic).

    Uzbez claims Russian history proves this centuries spanning badness (national/ethnic/racial chavanism).

    Macky points out that Russians are not uniquely & inherently bad, but are exactly normal humans the same as every other people.

    Macky does this by highlighting the badness/chauvinism that is intrinsic in the openly & officially promoted creeds of both the “Chosenness” of the Jews, & the “Manifest Destiny” doctrine of the Americans.

    Uzbek fails to acknowledge these clear examples of other States actually indoctrinating badness/chauvinism in their citizens.

    Uzbek fails to acknowledge that his dubious contention that Russian identity has always been deliberate cultivated to be chauvinistic, is in stark contrast to incontestable chauvinistic official creeds of both the Jewish & American identities.

    Uzbek,s failure to acknowledge the above two points, that disprove his contention that Russians are especially & inherently bad (chauvinistic); reveals a hypocritical inconsistency that betrays his prejudice towards Russians.

    Therefore his criticism of Russia & Russians, and his take on the Ukraine events are not motivated by rational argumentation, but instead are driven by the demon of irrational racism.

    Resident Dissident; “While Macky is on the subject of massacres perhaps he might wish to acknowledge those undertaken by Milosevic’s thugs on the Kosovans well before the NATO action, which he previously glossed over/ignored in his usual one sided analysis. I also wonder if he shares the view of his hero Galloway that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest catastrophe of his life”

    I’m more than happy to address these issues, but let’s follow your hypocritical advice just given to John Goss, and try to stay on topic, so here’s a question for you given your views on the Crimean Referendum;

    Since it’s universally acknowledge that the majority pro-Russian population will always vote Yes for closer integration with Russia, why would they need the “intimidation” of Russian troops to ensure something that is a complete certainty ?

  395. “I think everyone should pressure Resident Dissident about his views on 9/11. Considering 85% of Americans do not believe the government story. He’s so full of himself but if you try to pin him down on a particular issue he diverts. ”

    The real fun comes in trying to pin down a troofer to a particular conspiracy theory. Everybody knows the hijackers were CIA patsies but they didn’t exist and the planes were flown by remote control only of course cargo planes packed with explosives were substituted for the airliners which were flown off to an unknown secret location and the twin towers rigged for demolition using nano-thermate which is an incendiary not an explosive so mini-nukes were used instead only of course there were no planes and the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition and the planes added on afterwards using CGI and nobody died because all the bereaved are hired actors only of course we now know the towers weren’t rigged with explosive at all but destroyed by a ray gun fired from a satellite and the many tons of debris everybody thought had been sent to landfill without forensic investigation had in fact been totally destroyed. The attacks were planned by the Israelis and carried out by Freemasons disguised as neo-conservative giant lizards under the direction of the Illuminati and funded by the NWO.

    There, that should clear things up.

  396. RD 11.58. Still not good enough. You need to argue why the relatives of 9/11 victims are not allowed an inquiry into what caused the demolition of the twin towers and building 7. Quite clearly al Qaeda (a US conceived organisation) never had the capability. And God help the US if they could not intercept two rogue aircraft which had changed flight paths if it ever came to intercepting nuclear missiles. Above 1,000 scientists and engineers, mostly US, believe these buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. Do the relatives of the victims not deserve an inquiry?

    By the way it is not off topic. In 2011 Putin would even have agreed with you. Don’t know what his views are after the US funded coup of the fascists in Ukraine. Russia Today again. He argues that he cannot believe US special agencies were behind it.

    http://rt.com/politics/9-11-putin-seliger-investigation-toronto-355/

    Craig says: “Putin was strongest in his accusations of western hypocrisy.” Tell me why, Resident Dissident, the relatives should not have an inquiry.

  397. You’re another one Kempe (or not) who tries to put ideas into people’s heads about what ‘troofers’ believe.

    This is why I believe there should be an investigation as mentioned at 10.30 am.

    Aaron Russo’s interview with Alex Jones (not the singer/actress) is a good place to start because Aaron was Jewish (he was probably dying from cancer when he did this interview. It is short.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZjKKUEHTKk

    Then there is General Wesley Clark’s interview. It is even shorter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTdx1nPu3k

    As to the evidence. It lasts much longer but is well worth watching.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAztWC5sT8

    Argue that, especially the third link. Instead of your stupid fantasies about what you would like people to believe those of us with an alternative view argue. Bet you can’t. Put up or shut up.

  398. On the subject of stupid fantasies John which of the myriad alternative explanations for 9/11 do you subscribe too? I understand each one comes with incontrovertible evidence that cannot be de-bunked and therefore must be true (blue teapot!) so you must’ve formed an opinion by now.

    If there’s any entertainment to be had from from the 9/11 “truth” movement it’s been watching them turn in on each other as factions take up ever more bizarre and fantastic theories. It’s accepted that belief in conspiracy theories makes troofers feel empowered. They believe they are in possession of knowledge not accessible or understood by the rest of us, the “sheeple”, and it seems that within the conspiracy movement troofers who believe in the latest and most improbable theory feel themselves empowered above their fellows.

    Whilst there is a tendency to regard the whole conspiracy movement as a collection of harmless loons when the bereaved of events such Sandy Hook, Boston and 9/11 are being harassed and abused by idiots trying to trick or bully a confession from people they think are crisis actors or “vicsims” (simulated victims) it stops being funny. When parents are being fed lies in attempt to dissuade them from having their children vaccinated (in my experience people who believe one conspiracy theory generally believe all conspiracy theories) we’re talking manslaughter.

  399. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    22 Mar, 2014 - 2:33 pm

    Just popping in to do a Komodo. CM has become a snakepit and I don’t like snakes, so let Craig reap what he sowed…Neocon Jubilee !

  400. Kempe, I believe in investigation to determine cause. If the investigation is conducted by an independent body, with independent experts called, and results can be tested the likelihood of an acceptable outcome is enhanced. I do not agree even though in your “experience people who believe one conspiracy theory generally believe all conspiracy theories” so let’s stick with 9/11, or otherwise I will think you are trying to divert the discussion, and we get too much of that.

    Did you watch the third link in my last comment. It names names. The US does not want to satisfy the needs of families of victims of 9/11. Why would you think that is?

    Whether you like it or not we will soon have a definitive answer as to whether passenger planes were involved in 9/11 because an ex-CIA pilot, a very experienced pilot, has not just questioned the official version, but taken out an affidavit swearing that it is impossible. That means the legal arm of US government will have to respond, or his affidavit becomes enshrined in law as the truth. It amounts to put up or shut up and I suspect the response will be shut up.

    http://neonnettle.com/news/211-ex-cia-pilot-gives-sworn-testimony-that-no-planes-hit-the-twin-towers

  401. Resident Dissident, 9:52 am; yes, I object to the bullying of Uzbek in the UK, and to various contributors’ apparent selective blindness to crimes and gross injustices by Russia. Thank you for arguing the opposing case. But I’m also somewhat suspicious that you and ESLO are in fact the same contributor, and I am not satisfied with the 9/11 Commission Report.

    Ben-MAD, 2:33 pm; Craig didn’t sow any of this, unless you mean by having a very open policy on comments. Craig has been very consistent in opposing foreign military interference wherever it occurs.

  402. BrianFujisan

    22 Mar, 2014 - 3:34 pm

    Mary, Macky

    Some more on bbc bias….an exchange with the eloquent John Hilley Re -

    David Cameron’s ‘benign’ part in the ‘Middle East peace process’ – exchange with the BBC

    ” How much propaganda can be packed into one seemingly innocuous BBC news comment?

    Here’s a little insight.” J.H. @

    http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/

    P.S…Mary if that’s you in the comments section you have already seen the piece :)

    Re World war iii…

    A great article By Felicity Arbuthnot

    Ukraine, “Colored Revolutions”, Swastikas and the Threat of World War III

    As the US, EU and Britain huff and puff in barrel loads of clichés: “red lines” are “crossed”, “sovereignty and territorial integrity” has been “violated”, they stand “shoulder to shoulder” with their Neo-Nazi counterparts in the interim puppet government.

    They are “resolute” against “Russian aggression”, and will not “stand idly by”, sanity seems in short supply.

    US Secretary of State, John Kerry representing a country which makes Genghis Khan look like a wimp when it comes to illegal invasions, still retains the prize for jaw dropper of the decade: “You just don’t, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext”, he pontificated on CBS’ “Face the Nation.”

    On the thirteenth anniversary of the illegal invasion of Iraq and the total destruction of it’s “sovereignty and territorial integrity”, by America and Britain, Prime Minister David Cameron has scuttled off to Brussels for a meeting of European Union Ministers to agree on a “robust response” to Russia – which has fired not a shot, invaded no one and threatened nothing except to respond that if sanctions were imposed on Russia they might consider a trading response. Fair enough, surely?

    The government of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea called a referendum, distinctly disturbed by the threat by Kiev’s US proxy government that the Russian language was to have no status, and Jews and blacks would not be tolerated.

    Stop Fascism: Participate in the Referendum

    A fraction under 97% voted to cede to Russia, with a turnout of over 80% – an electoral enthusiasm of which Western governments could only dream.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-colored-revolutions-swastikas-and-the-threat-of-world-war-iii/5374625

  403. John, any serious investigation, independent or not, would be a waste of time as it would simply be dismissed as part of the cover up.

    Lear might be a highly skilled pilot but he is not an engineer and we have to ask ourselves just how feasible is the version of events he’s proposing, that every scrap of video and every snapshot of the event has been faked and that somehow everybody within visual range of the WTC was replaced on that morning by reliable actors? Ludicrous. It would be far less trouble to actually fly planes into the towers.

    BOT. Russian forces are reported to have stormed Ukrainian air bases in Crimea. It’s been reported that Ukraine was in the process of evacuating these bases anyway but has the bloodshed really started?

  404. Kempe, if you had read it thoroughly you would have seen that John Lear belongs to a group called Pilots for 911 truth, which maintains that it does not offer a theory or point blame. Neither do I but some that do suggest these ‘planes’ were ‘drone’ planes.

    http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

  405. Could not make it up. The wife of a president who kills extrajudically by unmanned drone, presides over Guantanamo and SuperMax prisons, imprisons the likes of Chelsea Manning and allows mass surveillance to take place, talks about lecturing China on human rights.

    Go back where you came from Michelle.

    Michelle Obama Tackles Human Rights In China

    Michelle Obama’s promise to pursue “soft diplomacy” in China has not stopped her taking on some tougher issues.

    Saturday 22 March 2014

    The US first lady has touched on human rights concerns during a visit to China, but stopped short of levelling any criticism against Beijing itself.

    Michelle Obama briefly set aside her policy of ‘soft diplomacy’ on Saturday to give a speech advocating freedom of expression and open access to information.

    She told a group of some 200 students at Beijing’s prestigious Peking University that universal rights should not be dependent on a person’s country of birth.

    /..
    http://news.sky.com/story/1230209/michelle-obama-tackles-human-rights-in-china

  406. Guilty as charged Brian. I have tremendous admiration for him.

  407. Some laughs here John. Sunstein is flogging his new book on conspiracy theories. He went on Reddit to answer questions.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/20q586/iaman_author_of_a_new_book_on_conspiracy_theories/

    He is the husband of Samantha Power the US ambassador to the UN. She recently berated the Russian ambassador.

  408. Thanks Mary. Somebody questioned the blanket term ‘conspiracy theory’ as I have done also. I can’t really discuss the book itself because I have not read it, and will not have time this year. I actually think Sunstein’s book on conspiracy theories has just as much chance of being a conspiracy itself as the so-called conspiracies discussed. It will certainly be written with an agenda – most books are. As we all know by the way David Aaronovitch supported Hutton over the Dr David Kelly death and called those campaigning for an inquest as conspiracy theorists how the government gets its hacks to hack out their line.

    http://surelysomemistake.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/piss-and-wind-david-aaronovitch-on.html

    Is it not appalling that when there should have been an inquest, Dr David Kelly, an Inquiry was held, and when there should have been an Inquiry, Lockerbie, a court case was held which wrongly convicted Abdelbaset al Megrahi. No wonder people question our government and their media lickspittles.

  409. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 6:22 pm

    “But I’m also somewhat suspicious that you and ESLO are in fact the same contributor”

    And how do you suggest we prove that we are not?

  410. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 6:27 pm

    RD 11.58. Still not good enough.

    Who the hell do you think you are? I don’t need to argue anything. I could point out that the blog owner does not share your viewpoint re 9/11 – perhaps in your arrogance you might wish to tell him that his position is not good enough either. Please stop your trolling and diversionary tactics.

  411. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 6:35 pm

    “Since it’s universally acknowledge that the majority pro-Russian population will always vote Yes for closer integration with Russia, ”

    Well they didn’t in 1992

    The intimidation of the Russian troops was necessary so that the referendum could be held – not to influence the result which I agree was a foregone conclusion in the circumstances created by their illegal invasion.

    As for you script re Uzbek I think that it just further exemplifies your bullying – you create a strawman regarding Uzbek’s position. I must say reading your case I was rather reminded of the style of the 1930s show trials.

  412. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 6:41 pm

    At the risk of encouraging Mr Goss’s trolling I should also point out that I have a good friend who lost his brother in 9/11 and I can assure you that the last thing he would like to see is yet another enquiry into 9/11 and he is clear who he holds responsible. I’m afraid your position is derived from a hatred of the US which has reached such a level that rationality went out of the window a long time ago.

  413. Who the hell do you think you are?

    John Goss. Who are you?

    When you are upset you cease even to try to argue. Give me a link that answers the concerns of those killed in 9/11 or argue on their behalf. You can’t get away with I said it so it must be true. I am sure the owner of this blog would not dismiss alternative ideas on 9/11 without a responsible argument. In fact if I recall correctly, although he did not believe 9/11 was an inside job, he did question the demolition of building 7. You question nothing if it is the government line not even the ‘land grab’ phrase pumped out earlier this week.

  414. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 7:05 pm

    “Give me a link that answers the concerns of those killed in 9/11 or argue on their behalf. You can’t get away with I said it so it must be true.”

    Are you thick or being deliberately obtuse, I was quoting the views of a personal friend – strangely enough he hasn’t decided to advertise his grief at the loss of his big brother on the internet.

    Enough no more food for this troll.

  415. It is quite clear to anyone with half a brain that I was answering your 6.27 comment. I had not refreshed the screen and you know it. So don’t come that!

  416. Resident Dissident, you never took me up on Putin previously sharing your view on 9/11. That’s what makes it pertinent to this feed Debunking Putin. So don’t make me out to be trolling, something I’m sure you have a lot more experience at than me. Why am I surprised your good friend shares your view on 9/11? I’ll tell you one thing, if it was my family I would want to know the truth. Like these 300 families.

    http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html

  417. Resident Dissident, 6:22 pm:

    “And how do you suggest we prove that we are not [the same contributor]?”

    Well you could comment under your real name, or link to contact details like I do. Such measures are not poof, but they increase authenticity. So does linking to any social network profiles such as Facebook or Linkedin. Or we could arrange a real-world meeting, maybe at some demonstration or protest we both support. You could e-mail me, and we could exchange numbers and talk on the telephone. You could link to comments you’ve posted on other blogs. There are many possibilities.

  418. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 9:10 pm

    Clark

    I’ve explained before why I use a handle rather than my name – my employer would be none too pleased in my expressing political opinions publicly. I am sorry but all the other alternatives you suggest would involve a risk of my anonymity being revealed. Perhaps when I retire or move to a more tolerant employer. I have posted elsewhere as Tory Boys Never Grow Up and on sites I trust with my email using my first name.

  419. Has Uzbek acquired “MAD lefties” tourette’s or something?

    It’s kind of hard to take someone seriously, when they say things like “I am not responding to bloody racist mad leftie sh..t.“, then proceed to address supposed “MAD lefties” a couple of dozen times in the same thread.

  420. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 9:31 pm

    To the Troll

    If you want to know what the vast majority of the families think about 9/11 may I suggest you look here

    http://911families.org/

    I would recommend the educational materials.

    The list to which you link is of 300 people not 300 families – you are being your normal misleading self by trying to portray this as the collective or even majority view of the 9/11 families. It is not.

    To the best of my knowledge Putin has not changed his view on 9/11 and I don’t think the subject was even mentioned until you raised it as a diversionary tactic – and then displayed hypocrisy by accusing me of diversion.

  421. Resident Dissident; “The intimidation of the Russian troops was necessary so that the referendum could be held”

    Err no, the troop were already there ! Maybe you mean the presence of the troops ensured that the the population of the Crimea were free to exercise their democratic right to vote, without the threat of spoiling attacks by Western sponsored stooges ?

    Resident Dissident; “not to influence the result which I agree was a foregone conclusion in the circumstances created by their illegal invasion”

    Which “illegal invasion” ? Maybe you meant to write “Coup” instead of “invasion”

    Resident Dissident; “As for you script re Uzbek I think that it just further exemplifies your bullying – you create a strawman regarding Uzbek’s position”

    The only bullying is actually coming from Uzbek, with his “MAD Lefies” slurs at everybody to browbeat & intimate them ! I know that you have lots of experience with strawman arguments, so I’m not very surprised that you have now lost the ability to distinguish between them & logical argumentation.

  422. John, regardless of what Pilots for 9/11 “truth” might think Lear categorically states that he does not believe any planes struck the WTC. He must therefore believe that every photograph, every image, every scrap of film and videotape of the impacts and over 3,000 deaths have been faked. Do you seriously believe that is rational?

  423. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 9:45 pm

    Err no, the troop were already there !

    Maybe they were but they were confined to the bases and areas were they were allowed to operate in accordance with internationally endorsed agreements – taking off their Russian army insignia and invading areas where they were not permitted was clearly an illegal act of force.

    A common feature of bullies is that they feel that they have the right to set out their victims position – just look at what you wrote.

  424. “Maybe you mean the presence of the troops ensured that the the population of the Crimea were free to exercise their democratic right to vote, ”

    Is that an attempt at sarcasm? Under the agreement Russian forces were supposed to be confined to their bases not roaming the countryside taking over airports and laying siege to government buildings. As for a referendum organised and supervised by an interested party, in this case one heavily armed, ever being free and fair you really are having a laugh aren’t you?

  425. To the sock puppeteer.

    “The list to which you link is of 300 people not 300 families”. That’s right, it is, as it says, survivors and families. It was a mistake not a deliberate attempt to mislead.

    Your own link is, I’m sure, a good source of support for those of the victims’ families who believe the official version without question. But if you noticed on the link I gave there were a whole lot more highly professional people who question the official version as well as the 300+ survivors and families.

    220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
    1,500+ Engineers and Architects
    250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
    400+ Professors Question 9/11
    300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
    200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
    400+ Medical Professionals

    On top of that there are smaller groups but still with specialist expertise like the Firemen for 9/11 truth. According to one report 85% of Americans do not believe the official version yet still no Inquiry. Why not?

  426. Resident Dissident & Kempe,

    The majority population of the Crimea are Russians, who have the right as codified in the UN Charter to seek self-determination; this they were able to do, unhindered & in safely, thanks to the presence of Russian troops; what is the real practical difference this “Yes” vote has with the “Yes” vote that everybody agrees would have been the inevitable result, regardless of the whetever Russian troops were there or not ?

    Is this non difference really worth all this hostilities, all these sanctions, even possible war ?!! Are our leaders & politicians completely mad ?!!

  427. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:20 pm

    Well at least one mad leftie is not as mad as our mad lefties!

    http://www.leninology.com/2014/03/against-imperialist-intervention-in.html

  428. Kempe at 9.44 pm. If what struck 9/11 were drones then no plane did strike. Those who have done the calculations, same website, say that the speed of whatever hit the twin towers was too fast to be 767s. Also many people believe they were too small to be 767s. I am no expert and leave such things to those who know.

  429. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:37 pm

    Macky

    Is this non difference really worth all this hostilities

    The only ones using hostility in the Crimea were the Russians – so if Putin wants to use the same technique to annex parts of Eastern Ukraine, Moldova and the Baltic republics you would have no concern, or if Israelis were to do the same with parts of the West Bank, and goodness knows who could claim parts of nearly every other country in the Middle East given the pretty artificial nature of boundaries there etc.etc. And what about the protection of minority rights in those reclaimed territories. And what about the treaties previously signed by Russia where the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons in return for Russia, the UK and US (and France?) guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Crimea??

    Yes I fear Putin will get away with it – but commonsense says that he needs to know that there is a price for doing so, if only to stop him and others doing it again. I think you should also understand that much liberal Russian opinion is appalled by what Putin has done and fears for the resultant wave of Russian nationalism that it will inevitably release.

  430. Resident Dissident; “Well they didn’t in 1992″

    Are you spreading misinformation ?

    “On January 20, 1991, Crimeans voted to restore their ties with Russia by almost the same percentage (93.2%) we saw in today’s election—where, according to the BBC, 93% of Crimean voters once again voted Russian”

    http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/

  431. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:49 pm

    “yet still no Inquiry. Why not?”

    Not true

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission

    What you meant is that there has been on enquiry whose membership was made up of people like yourself (who have publicly stated their hatred of the US Govt) who have reached the a different conclusion based on far less access to the evidence.

  432. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:53 pm

    Macky

    Might I suggest that you look at the 1992 vote on Ukraine’s independence rather than a vote taken before the break up of the Soviet Union. I have posted the link many times.

  433. Thanks for that link Macky. Obviously somebody who knows what he’s talking about. It is good to have a voice of reason like that of Gary Brecher’s in this topsy-turvy world of MSM lies, half lies and disinformation.

  434. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 10:59 pm

    Macky

    And do you really believe that c40% of Ukrainians and Tatars in the Crimea willing voted to join Russia as would be indicated by the turnout and voting figures in last week’s referendum? Are you really that gullible?

  435. “What you meant is that there has been on enquiry whose membership was made up of people like yourself (who have publicly stated their hatred of the US Govt) who have reached the a different conclusion based on far less access to the evidence”.

    The commission was a farce and you know it. There has not been a proper Inquiry called for by these people who cannot possibly be described as hating the US like I do.

    220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
    1,500+ Engineers and Architects
    250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
    400+ Professors Question 9/11
    300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
    200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
    400+ Medical Professionals

    Should their views be ignored?

  436. What it really boils down to is that people like you, and all your socks, do not want an Inquiry because the result will show that the war on terror was a farce designed to steal oil, 9/11 was the biggest false-flag to date. Osama Bin Laden is a pariah created by the west who had no involvement in 9/11 (he says). Is he dead? Don’t you believe honest men when they speak?

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/interview-with-osama-bin-laden-denies-his-involvement-in-9-11/24697

  437. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:08 pm

    “The commission was a farce and you know it.”

    No I don’t – its conclusion was critical of the failings of the CIA – and you told a bare faced lie in saying that there was no enquiry, for which you lack the good grace to apologise. I wonder what other lies you have told? Do the ends justify the means?

  438. Resident Dissident

    22 Mar, 2014 - 11:09 pm

    Don’t you believe honest men when they speak?

    I do – but as already proven tonight you are not honest, at least on this subject.

  439. Resident Dissident; “The only ones using hostility in the Crimea were the Russians”

    The Crimean Referendum cannot be looked at in isolation, and divorced from the Western supported bloodly Coup in the Ukraine, that was rather hostile ! The Referendum was the direct consequence of the Coup; context is everything; the presence of Russian troops ensured that pro-Russian majority population were able to decide their own future democratically, and these troops should be congratulated for the minimal violence that has occurred in the Crimea, especially when set against the bloodbath in Kiev.

    “so if Putin wants to use the same technique to annex parts of Eastern Ukraine, Moldova and the Baltic republics….etc”

    Do any of these places have a pro-Russian majority or are you scaremongering ? If any do, and they vote democratically for union with Russia, what is the problem ?

    “what about the protection of minority rights in those reclaimed territories”

    ? The same as for those inside the Russian Federation already, obviously.

    “And what about the treaties previously signed by Russia where the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons in return for Russia, the UK and US (and France?) guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Crimea?”

    The illegal coup in Kiev has made all such treaties null & void, obviously; the fascists in Kiev are talking about having nuclear weapons back.

    “Yes I fear Putin will get away with it – but commonsense says that he needs to know that there is a price for doing so, if only to stop him and others doing it again”

    You mean the people of the Crimea have managed to exercise their democratic right for self-determination, and you are advocating that to discourage other people in the same situation, Russian needs to be punish for the “crime” of ensuring the rights of the Crimean people !

    “think you should also understand that much liberal Russian opinion is appalled by what Putin has done and fears for the resultant wave of Russian nationalism that it will inevitably release”

    Speculation without supporting references ?

    Here a little joke for you;

    The US paid at least 5 billion dollars to enable Crimea to return to Russia. :)

  440. RD, people, good, well-educated people are calling for an Inquiry against the findings of the US government commission, the findings of which hardly anybody with commonsense believes. That is why they want an Inquiry. Now do you understand?

  441. Good joke Macky

    “The US paid at least 5 billion dollars to enable Crimea to return to Russia. :)

    And they will be spending a lot more to have elections in Ukraine (if they ever materialise) which might well see a vote against Yatsenyuk’s neo-Nazi illegally-imposed government. The internet is a means of spreading information and just because we don’t get to hear about Catherine Ashton’s conversation with Urmas Paet on our MSM that the decent Ukrainians will not be able to put wo and two together as to why there has been no Inquiry about who started the shooting on the streets of Kiev. I hope the Ukrainians do the right thing.

  442. Ian Pannell today from Crimea :”These are the pictures the Kremlin don’t want you to see.”

    We didn’t see many of the dead in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan or Syria.

    These were the pictures the US/UK didn’t want you to see.

    So the BBfuckinC didn’t show them.

  443. BrianFujisan

    23 Mar, 2014 - 1:18 am

    Come on RD…geez a break…. and can you or anyone else, explain how a full scale theater war can be planned, and executed in mere weeks.

    At eleven o’clock, on the morning of September 11, the Bush adminstration had already announced that Al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks on the World Trade Center (WTC) and the Pentagon. This assertion was made prior to the conduct of an indepth police investigation.

    That same evening at 9:30 pm, a “War Cabinet” was formed integrated by a select number of top intelligence and military advisors. And at 11:00 pm, at the end of that historic meeting at the White House, the “War on Terrorism” was officially launched.

    The decision was announced to wage war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in retribution for the 9/11 attacks. The following morning on September 12th, the news headlines indelibly pointed to “state sponsorship” of the 9/11 attacks. In chorus, the US media was calling for a military intervention against Afghanistan. Barely four weeks later, on the 7th of October, Afghanistan was bombed and invaded by US troops.Americans were led to believe that the decison to go to war had been taken on the spur of the moment, on the evening of September 11, in response to the attacks and their tragic consequences.

    Little did the public realize that a large scale theater war is never planned and executed in a matter of weeks. The decision to launch a war and send troops to Afghanistan had been taken well in advance of 9/11. The “terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event” as it was later described by CentCom Commander General Tommy Franks, served to galvanize public opinion in support of a war agenda which was already in its final planning stage.

  444. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 7:34 am

    Macky

    So if the Syrian Shia or Kurds could make a case that Assad was a fascist (well at least that part would be easier than with Euromaidan) who was supported by foreign powers (tick – Russia and Iran) then it would be ok for foreign troops to invade (providing they took off their insignia beforehand) so that the Syrian Shia and Kurds could hold the necessary referendums? If you cannot see that this is the way to madness then might I suggest that you are already there.

    “what about the protection of minority rights in those reclaimed territories”

    ? The same as for those inside the Russian Federation already, obviously.

    Somehow I don’t think they will find that very reassuring – you really have no idea about what is happening in Russia

    http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-support-for-federalism-and-ethnic-russians-in-ukraine-creating-problems-for-moscow-at-home/

    You can look at that site and its links if you want a better understanding of liberal Russian opinion – but I very much doubt you do.

  445. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 7:37 am

    Brian

    Afghanistan was not bombed and invaded by the US troops 4 weeks later – it was only bombed and sadly I can well believe that 4 weeks is sufficient to arrange the bombing.

  446. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 7:49 am

    John Goss

    It is fairly clear that there was shooting on the streets of Kyiv well before the shootings which Ashton discussed. You don’t really have a clue as to what was happening at Euromaidan and the other demonstrations throughout the Ukraine and are just clutching at the line manufactured by the KGB to justify the actions of Putin and his corrupt friends. How much do you think Russia has paid over the years to support its puppets in the Ukraine and elsewhere – where were your complaints when they turned off the gas in the heart of winter? This has been going on for many many years – and all the time the useful idiots and fellow travellers out of hatred of the West and old time nostalgia for the Soviet Union have just enjoyed the ride and said nothing whatsoever since they have no sense of shame.

  447. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:00 am

    Mary harumphs

    “I do not like being cross questioned here as if it is some court of law.”
    ________________________

    In other words, you believe that you’re infallible and that everything you opine is ex cathedra.

    If you post on a blog like this, you must expect to be questioned. It’s part of the ‘deal’, surely. Everyone else on here seems to accept this, so why can’t you?

  448. Dreadful denigration of Putin and warmongering on Sky News just now from the execrable Robert Fox of the Evening Standard. No irony in the fact that his paymaster at the Evening Standard is one of the Russian oligarchs who bled the Russian people dry and stole their resources.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebedev

    No challenges were made by the presenter Gillian Joseph to his right wing views or by the other guest reviewer of the Sunday papers.

    Fox would be at home on Fox News another tentacle of Murdoch’s empire.

  449. All the evil of the war(s) on terrrrr flowed from 9/11. What more needs to be said.

  450. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:18 am

    I should of course said Syrian Sunni not Shia in my post to Macky – but the same argument could of course be applied to the Shia in Bahrain or Lebanon – just as it was applied in the past to the Sudenten and Danzig Germans.

  451. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:18 am

    I just re-read pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/

    Plenty to consider there. The comments are almost as revealing as here on Uncle Craig’s blog, but obviously will never attain our stellar quality.

    There’s one here from culturedallroundman that provides additional detail about past referenda in Crimea.

    Clearly the corporate media’s credibility is cracking.

  452. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:19 am

    Clark (in reply to Ben)

    “Ben-MAD, 2:33 pm; Craig didn’t sow any of this, unless you mean by having a very open policy on comments.”
    _____________________

    Agree. You see, Clark, the problem is that the Eminences don’t like having their ‘arguments’ questioned. For some strange reason they think that they’re entitled to set the agenda on here and when they don’t succeed in shutting someone up they start issuing threats: Mod, ban him! I’m leaving! Etc, etc.

    Let Ben leave – I don’t think his contributions were such as to make people regret his absence.

  453. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:20 am

    Apologies, I messed up that link. Here it is.

    pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/

  454. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:21 am

    “No irony in the fact that his paymaster at the Evening Standard is one of the Russian oligarchs who bled the Russian people dry and stole their resources.”

    But there definitely was irony in the article by his son in his paper recently which took a rather uncritical line regarding Putin’s involvement in the Crimea. Fortunately, he doesn’t go as far as stamping on the diversity of opinion that Mary clearly finds something of an anathema.

  455. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:24 am

    Sofia

    Strange that the everything you need to know article doesn’t mention the 1992 Ukraine independence referendum just the Soviet 1991 one – why is that?

  456. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:26 am

    Tovarish Goss!

    “I do not agree even though in your “experience people who believe one conspiracy theory generally believe all conspiracy theories” so let’s stick with 9/11, or otherwise I will think you are trying to divert the discussion, and we get too much of that.”
    ______________________

    What a hypocrite you are! And, like Tartuffe, you don’t even realise it.

    You yourself started diverting this thread in order to – yet again, for the n th time – air your theories about 9/11. (By the way, we are all – and that includes CXraig Murray – sick of hearing them).

    And then you accuse Kempe of diverting the discussion away from 9/11.

    You are a devious Stalinist.

  457. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:33 am

    Clark:

    “Resident Dissident, 6:22 pm:

    “And how do you suggest we prove that we are not [the same contributor]?”

    Well you could comment under your real name, or link to contact details like I do”
    _______________________

    And how many of the other Eminences do so? Please name them.

    (BTW, do say that some people use their Christian names; that says nothing at all).

  458. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:40 am

    Comedy time – a gem from the Bluntest Knife, aka Macky

    “The only bullying is actually coming from Uzbek, with his “MAD Lefies” slurs at everybody to browbeat & intimate them ! ”
    ____________________________

    Hilarious – and typical (I got the same treatment myself): the Eminences, backed up on this occasion by a suspicious number of “brand new” commenters, trumpet a certain lone about Ukraine/Russia/Crimea. One poster (Uzbek) comes alonjg with a different, opposing view…which he has the gall to maintain. And, lo and behold, it’s Uzbek who’s the bully!

    You really couldn’t make it up.

  459. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:47 am

    RD. 8 24am

    Break open the Champaigne. We have found a sliver of common ground!

    The reason I flagged culturalroundman was because he provides details that throw light on the broader picture. This includes the 1992 referendum which you so kindly point to.

    I’ll save you from scrolling through to find it. Here’s a direct link. http://www.livefyre.com/profile/34692310/

    You ask, “why is that?” You need to address your question to Gary Brecher, but my guess is he’d tell you that all that would need another long article.

    That is an omission rather than a falsehood. Can you point to anything in the article that is plainly untrue?

  460. Esrly one (Sunday) morning just as the sun was rising….

    the trolls/disrupters/diverters came out in force.

    Like an air raid.

  461. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:53 am

    Mary.

    “Like an air raid”…by a flock of incontinent turkeys. (Sorry Dad)

  462. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:53 am

    ““The commission was a farce and you know it.”

    No I don’t – its conclusion was critical of the failings of the CIA – and you told a bare faced lie in saying that there was no enquiry,”
    _______________________

    Bad night for the Tovarish – second time he got caught out in a terminological inexactitude, aka a lie. Of course, I’ve caught him out in several at various times in the past (his usual reply is “I made a mistake”).

  463. “John Goss

    It is fairly clear that there was shooting on the streets of Kyiv well before the shootings which Ashton discussed.”

    This is typical of you RD. You weren’t there in Kiev. You’ve said this before and provided no evidence. You just don’t know, do you? So you make it up.

    Where is the evidence that the shooting by sniper(s) from protestors on protestors and police, referred to by Paet, and unreported by MSM, were not the first? You haven’t got any. Because if there was any there would be an Inquiry which even Catherine Ashton agreed there should be. So cut the crap.

  464. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 Mar, 2014 - 9:09 am

    …But then Putin came along and, using his experience in the KGB and connections with other post-Soviet “power ministeries,” he crafted a new order, which first decimated and either supplanted or absorbed the gangsters, and then imposed what Putin has termed “the dictatorship of the law.” This is the first important piece of the new Russian ideology: law matters and nobody can be above it—not even the United States.

    From,
    http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/the-madness-of-president-putin.html

  465. Recommended listening.

    The Sunday Service from the Syrian Orthodox Cathedral in London.

    Inside Anger
    Duration: 38 minutes

    First broadcast:Sunday 23 March 2014′Inside anger.’ In the third of Radio 4′s series ‘Inside Lent,’ Martin Palmer, Secretary General of the Alliance of Religions and Conservation reflects on the difference between blind and righteous anger.

    From the Syrian Orthodox Cathedral in West London with His Eminence Archbishop Mar Athanasius, Patriarchal Vicar of the Syrian Orthodox Church in Great Britain. With comments from the Prince of Wales from his speech given last December in support of the Christian Communities in Syria and the Holy Land generally.

    On iPlayer shortly
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ymr4p

  466. There is a transcript of the service on the link. Salutary to read the spoken words.

  467. Ignore my comment at 9.28 it was off topic. This will always be on topic because it is about sock puppetry and trying to determine who are the genuine dissenters and who are the trolls.

    http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/the-sock-puppeteer.html

  468. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 1:40 pm

    You’ve said this before and provided no evidence

    I thought that possibly you had read the newspapers on what was happening in the Ukraine before February – but clearly not. This is a good a summary as any http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan

    - look at the links if you want further evidence.

    On the contrary it is your theory that it was ALL started by fascists that has no evidence. Please note the ALL.

  469. Spot on John and I like your cartoon.

  470. mean mister mustard

    23 Mar, 2014 - 2:19 pm

    Note the weasel-word ALL. Safety in numbers…

    [craigmurray.org.uk - from same IP address as: Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger]

  471. Amanpour the msm stooge is way out of her depth with Amb Churkin when she tries to mess with him. He exposes her shallowness.

    ‘Russian ambassador to the United Nations Vitaly Churkin has issued a response to Christiane Amanpour after the CNN anchor lashed out at the diplomat over his inability to appear on her show and brought his daughter into the equation.

    In her Thursday show, Amanpour said: “And one more note: we continue to reach out to the Russian government for their comment, including officials such as UN Ambassador, Vitaly Churkin. We haven’t had much luck, but perhaps people like Churkin feel they don’t really have to leave their comfort zone.”

    “Churkin’s own daughter is the US-based reporter for ‘Russia Today’ in New York. She’s shown here, quizzing US State Department spokesman, Jen Psaki, over this whole Ukraine crisis. And in the past, she’s even reported on her own father.”

    —-

    Dear Ms. Amanpour,

    I am taken aback by the personal attacks you resorted to in your show on March 20. I have known you for many years (including through a number of on-the-air interviews) and used to respect you professionally. So it was somewhat startling that my inability to give another interview provoked such an outburst.

    As to my unwillingness, as you put it, to leave my “comfort zone” – you are absolutely right. After 8 meetings of the Security Council on the situation in Ukraine and Crimea (six of them in front of TV cameras) I feel very comfortable that the truth is beginning to come across.

    If, though, you imply that I don’t want to answer tough questions, then you are mature enough to know that I spoke to the “full house” at the Washington National Cathedral in October, 1983, two weeks after the South Korean airliner was downed, and then testified at the US Congress in May of 1986 after the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, not to mention hundreds of other media and “live” appearances. So I can explain to anyone what “leaving a comfort zone” means.

    But I wouldn’t be writing to you if you did not also choose to personally attack my daughter – your younger colleague – a Russian TV journalist. I am very proud of her – not only is she a good journalist, but she strictly keeps her professional distance from me.

    Incidentally, I recall you married the State Department Spokesman. How was your professional credibility in the course of your courtship?

    Don’t bother to answer. I don’t really want to know.’

    Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the United Nations Vitaly Churkin

    http://rt.com/usa/churkin-response-amanpour-cnn-465/

  472. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 2:24 pm

    Sofia

    Your quote from Orlov would be comical were it not so tragic. Please ask any ordinary Russian if they think that the oligarchs who toe the Putin line are subject to the same laws as they are – juts read anything about Russia other than the propaganda put out by the regime and the favoured oligarchs. Where do you think all this money being pumped into yachts, property etc. actually comes from?

    PS Gary Brecher is associated with eXile magazine which in turn has links with Eduard Limonov (look him up) who even Putin has found a little too embarrassing in the past.

  473. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 2:29 pm

  474. The people in Ukraine will discover the truth when the ‘austerity’ bites.

    EU-Ukraine trade pact paves way for brutal austerity

    “Amid intensifying US and European Union sanctions and military provocations against Russia, the EU and the Western-backed government in Ukraine yesterday signed a pact that paves the way for brutal austerity measures and free market reforms.

    The EU-Ukraine Association Agreement is based on the deal that former President Viktor Yanukovych’s Ukrainian government rejected, leading to the US- and EU-instigated protests and violence that ousted him last month.

    The pact, signed in Brussels, declares that the Ukrainian government must “embark swiftly on an ambitious program of structural reforms” and submit to “an agreement with the [International Monetary Fund].” The plans being drawn up are based on the “Greek model”—the savage cuts imposed on Greece by the IMF and the EU that have produced a massive growth in unemployment and poverty.”

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/22/ukra-m22.html

    The massive protest in Madrid yesterday against such austerity was very much under reported in the UK lamestream media. Now why should that be?

    23 March 2014 Last updated at 00:13
    Spain austerity: Huge Madrid protest turns violent
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26703528

  475. mean mister mustard

    23 Mar, 2014 - 2:43 pm

    http://news.yahoo.com/britons-rate-russia-more-positively-eu-poll-shows-003103687.html;_ylt=AwrTWfx3PS5TkwEAwQHQtDMD

    “London (AFP) – Britons see Russia in a more positive light than the European Union, despite recent tensions with Moscow over Ukraine, according to a poll published on Saturday.

    The results of the online poll of 20,000 people between 7 and 20 January organised by Conservative party peer Lord Michael Aschcroft were published in Rupert Murdoch’s British tabloid The Sun on Sunday.”

    [craigmurray.org.uk - from same IP address as: Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger]

  476. “The results of the online poll of 20,000 people between 7 and 20 January ”

    A lot has happened in the two months since besides rating above the EU isn’t very difficult in this country.

  477. “John Goss

    It is fairly clear that there was shooting on the streets of Kyiv well before the shootings which Ashton discussed.”

    RD

    Where do the links you provide at 1:40 p.m. support this outrageous lie. You made the statement, knowing it was a lie, then when you could not find anything to support it provided a couple of Wikipedia links and wanted me to go looking for corroboration for you. Why don’t you just admit you made it up and thought nobody would notice. At least if I make a mistake I admit it, but to deliberately lie, and then not apologise is pretty despicable..

  478. “Spot on John and I like your cartoon.”

    Thanks Mary. Just a bit of imaginary fun for those with a sense of humour.

  479. The war mongering General Strangelove, sorry Breedlove.

    Russian troops poised to ‘run’ into Moldova, Nato commander warns
    A pro-Russian enclave of Moldova could be Moscow’s next target after Crimea, Nato warns
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/moldova/10717260/Russian-troops-poised-to-run-into-Moldova-Nato-commander-warns.html

    ‘Gen Breedlove issued his warning at event in Brussels held by the Marshall Fund, a German think-tank. On Tuesday, the government of Moldova warned Russia against any moves to annex Transdniester, following comments from the speaker of Transdniester’s parliament urging Moscow to incorporate the enclave.’

    ~~

    The German Marshall Fund of the United States, to give it its full name.
    http://www.gmfus.org/

    The Board of Trustees names and faces
    http://www.gmfus.org/about-gmf/board-of-trustees/

    The President and CEO is Craig Kennedy
    http://www.gmfus.org/expert/experts_dirc/craig-kennedy/
    ‘Mr. Kennedy has also expanded GMF’s programs in Central and Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Two major accomplishments of that effort have been the launch in 2003 of the Balkan Trust for Democracy and the Black Sea Trust for Democracy in 2007.’

    What work do those two trusts perform? Connections??

  480. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 5:27 pm

    Where do the links you provide at 1:40 p.m. support this outrageous lie.

    Look at the timelines, look at the lists of the murdered – you will see that a number were shot in January. I didn’t make anything up – please bother to check properly before making accusations, nit that has stopped you in the past.

  481. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 5:43 pm

    I am awaiting Mr Goss’s apology – I haven’t made anything up – seek and you shall find.

  482. Sorry, you really cannot work it out, can you. You said:

    “John Goss

    It is fairly clear that there was shooting on the streets of Kyiv well before the shootings which Ashton discussed.”

    What does ‘fairly clear’ mean to you ‘totally indistinct’. Yes January 22nd I think it was when the shooting started. Paet phoned Catherine Ashton a month later following his visit to Ukraine where he was informed about who did the shooting by a doctor who treated them. Ashton was referring to the month of violence, based on the testimony of a doctor who treated the injured and examined the dead. He obviously only saw what happened when he was there which is why he relied on evidence from the doctor. Now do you get it?

    These are Europeans, Urmas Paet and Catherine Ashton. Paet said he thought there should be an investigation, to which Catherine Ashton agreed. Russia has called for an investigation. But those who did it don’t want one. I wonder why?

  483. This was from a report on 23 January, the day after the shootings.

    “Medics have extracted the bullets from the bodies of the two dead men. It has been established that one of the victims was killed by a shot from a Degtyarev sniper rifle with a 7.62 mm caliber bullet. The second man was mortally wounded by a 9 mm bullet, apparently from a Makarov pistol, local espreso.tv said.

    Police stressed that whoever shot the man, it was not one of their officers.”

    http://rt.com/news/ukraine-riot-police-diplomats-013/

  484. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    23 Mar, 2014 - 6:09 pm

    I have long held the view that the Real Trolls on here are not myself, resident Dissident and one or two others but Mr John Goss (Order of the Red Banner), Mary, Herbie, Mr Doug Scorgie and various other Eminences.

    All the evidence is there : hijacking threads, diversionary tactics, insults and threats, false feelings of entitlement.

    I would not be surprised if many of them were paid by someone or another to post in such a way as to bring the blog into disrepute.

    Glad that others seem to have noticed this as well.

  485. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 6:13 pm

    Mr Goss

    Please do not be so disingenuous the Jan 22 shootings were not the 18 February sniper shootings being discussed by Paet and Ashton – and of course we are not mentioning the beatings and torture inflicted by the authorities since the start of the Euromaidan. Some of this have been following this whole matter for rather longer than you, and I’m afraid if you are going to keep your useful idiot status in the eyes of Mr Putin you are going to need to try a lot harder.

    Why do you think that Richard Seymour, whose politics is an awful lot closer to yours than mine, can recognise that there is rather more to the Ukrainian protests than a US inspired fascist plot.

  486. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 6:16 pm

    Habba

    I disagree I don’t think Putin would be daft enough to pay some of those you name – and if he did he would want his money back. The real KGB goons are pretty easy to spot.

  487. I am waiting Resident Dissident’s apology.

  488. “The real KGB goons are pretty easy to spot.”

    You were a lot easier to spot in your ESLO guise.

  489. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 6:29 pm

    I was in Russia at the time of the Sarajevo Market Place shellings – I remember very well how the nationalist and old Communist elements also jumped very quickly to the false flag/provocation position that the same elements continue to be keen on using. Subsequent investigations pretty much demonstrated that the claims were lies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markale_massacres

    The gullible can continue to believe that RT is a reliable newsource when it comes to the interests of the Putin regime.

  490. Wikipedia, put together by ordinary people is a better source? Why should Russia Today lie about the bullets? The report itself is very favourable towards the protestors and against the police. Or did you not read it? Again?

    That’s the trouble with people who do not examine things objectively. Still there’s always time to learn.

  491. For me, the argument on this thread typifies what I find wrong about politics and political debate. Each “side” has already decided its position, and as argument proceeds the attitudes of the contributors harden and become entrenched, such that each “side” treats, and apparently considers, contributors from the other “side” as being of evil intent.

    The spirit of enquiry is not alive here.

  492. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 6:45 pm

    Mr Goss

    I will apologise when I get something wrong.

    The transcript of the Paet/Ashton telephone – intercepted by your friends in the KGB no doubt – http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/ has no reference whatsoever to Ashton referring to the month of violence. They are clearly discussing the sniper shootings a few days previously.

    You have quite clearly made up the reference to “Ashton referring to the month of violence” – this is yet another lie on your part – the second this week. You have also accused me of lying and I have demonstrated that I was not. You also said “At least if I make a mistake I admit it, but to deliberately lie, and then not apologise is pretty despicable..”

  493. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 6:47 pm

    “Why should Russia Today lie about the bullets? ”

    Do I really have to spell that out to you? I’m sure if challenged they would just say they were quoting the words of Kiev’s defenders against fascism.

  494. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 6:53 pm

    Clark

    I have already pointed to Richard Seymour’s post on the Ukraine twice – if people are not prepared to engage with the views of those with whom they agree most of the time (I could also add Craig to that list) I have my doubt whether there is much spirit of enquiry on their part.

  495. Clark, I would agree that my view is entrenched. I believe, know, that the west funded the coup in Kiev. All this needs to be exposed before the elections (if they take place). People who support the fascists and their colleagues who have stolen power illegally are below my respect. I have always tried to uphold the rule of law and taught my children to do the same. It is particularly galling that those entrenched on the other side have previously been anti-fascist but not a word of criticism from them against the Svoboda thugs that forced under gunpoint the chief executive of a television station, Oleksandr Panteleymonov, in Kiev to resign. These are the shady gun-carriers those with an opposing view to mine support, and their views in supporting such thugs are equally as entrenched as mine in opposing them.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26653295

  496. You’re in denial RD. You can’t help it. What makes you think people on the west would support somebody, Richard Seymour, who believes in splitting the left. I believe in left unity.

    http://socialistunity.com/andrew-murrays-reply-richard-seymour-ukrainian-crisis/

  497. “on the west” = “on the left”

  498. Resident Dissident; “Why do you think that Richard Seymour, whose politics is an awful lot closer to yours than mine, can recognise that there is rather more to the Ukrainian protests than a US inspired fascist plot”

    You are behind the curve on Seymour, he turned into another turncoat Neocon Apologist some time ago;

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1394980439.html

  499. John Goss, I strongly suggest that you spend some time exploring the following Wikipedia articles:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_crisis

    Don’t take the articles at face value; Wikipedia suffers from bias, especially on current events, by its reliance on what are considered “reliable sources”, many of which are corporate media sources. This tends to be corrected over time as academic, medical, legal, governmental and human rights/NGO reports are compiled and become available.

    It is also well worth looking at the History and Talk Pages of Wikipedia articles. Propagandists from all sides are active on Wikipedia; they edit out sourced contributions that contradict their preferred narrative, but the record remains in the History page, and the removed material can still be accessed. Interesting links that are not from sufficiently authoritative sources are often found on Talk Pages.

    Also please pay some attention to the people who comment here with personal contacts and direct experience; Evgueni, who is from Ukraine and is in contact with friends and relatives there; Phil, who received e-mails from his friend in Kiev; Uzbek in the UK, who has direct experience of living in a country under severe Russian influence, and Craig Murray himself, who has extensive experience working at the British embassy in Poland and of course in Uzbekistan. Remember that Craig’s adversary Alisher Usmanov is a typical example of one of these oligarchs from the former-USSR.

    The great strength of Wikipedia is the diversity of its contributors and the sources they reference.

  500. Resident Dissident and Habbabkuk, you would have more credibility with me if you hadn’t so blandly promoted the 9/11 Commission report. I know this is off-topic; I don’t have much to say to you about your stance on Euromaidan because John Goss and others are giving you such an easy time by being so gullible in their acceptance of obvious Russian propaganda. But your acceptance of the 9/11 Commission report indicates that you accept elements of the “dominant narrative” without appropriate questioning, just as John Goss seems happy to let RT reports pass without appropriate scrutiny.

    The two co-chairs of the Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, believe that the government established the Commission in a way that ensured that it would fail.

    A 28 page section of the report was redacted and never made public.

    The 9/11 Commission report is based in its most critical chapters on confessions extracted under torture, and indeed more torture was committed in response to the Commission’s requests for further information:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080407223205/http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624314.aspx

    The NBC News analysis shows that more than one quarter of all footnotes in the 9/11 Report refer to CIA interrogations of al-Qaida operatives who were subjected to the now-controversial interrogation techniques. In fact, information derived from the interrogations is central to the Report’s most critical chapters, those on the planning and execution of the attacks. The analysis also shows – and agency and commission staffers concur – there was a separate, second round of interrogations in early 2004, done specifically to answer new questions from the Commission.

    9/11 Commission staffers say they “guessed” but did not know for certain that harsh techniques had been used, and they were concerned that the techniques had affected the operatives’ credibility. At least four of the operatives whose interrogation figured in the 9/11 Commission Report have claimed that they told interrogators critical information as a way to stop being “tortured.” The claims came during their hearings last spring at the U.S. military facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

    [...]

    Specifically, the NBC News analysis shows 441 of the more than 1,700 footnotes in the Commission’s Final Report refer to the CIA interrogations. Moreover, most of the information in Chapters 5, 6 and 7 of the Report came from the interrogations. Those chapters cover the initial planning for the attack, the assembling of terrorist cells, and the arrival of the hijackers in the U.S. In total, the Commission relied on more than 100 interrogation reports produced by the CIA. The second round of interrogations sought by the Commission involved more than 30 separate interrogation sessions.

  501. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 7:44 pm

    Strange, because I thought that, among the people responsible for ‘splitting the left’ were the leaders of the SWP. I see Andrew Murray cavalierly dismissing the ‘alleged rape’. I also see Mark Steel, among decent others, objecting.

    http://marksteelinfo.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/oh-good-lord-what-has-the-swp-gone-and-done-now/

    I see Resident Dissident making the point that not ALL of the problems in the Ukraine are down to Western backed fascists. Is this not an entirely reasonable position?

  502. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 7:47 pm

    John Goss

    Another post another smear – where I have ever expressed support for Svoboda – you just fail to understand that there was a lot more opposition to Yanukovych and the oligarchs, (and to the oligarch master in Moscow) in the Ukraine than Svoboda. Your view that the vast majority of Ukrainians are incapable of thinking for themselves and forming views without the West or other outside forces really is verging on racism.

    The only left unity you believe is unity behind what you believe, which should just about fill a telephone kiosk.

  503. The latest moves on the chess board.

    Russian officials inspect US nuclear arsenal amid crisis

    As Washington imposed sanctions against Moscow over the Ukrainian crisis, a group of Russian officials arrived in the United States to inspect the US strategic nuclear arsenal.

    The surprise inspection earlier this week of the nuclear arsenal in San Francisco was agreed to under the 2010 New START arms control treaty, The Washington Post reports.

    Under the treaty, Russia and the United States each agreed to reduce their nuclear warheads to 1,550 by 2018.

    Russia strongly objects to US missile plans in Eastern Europe and has repeatedly threatened to withdraw from the treaty which, among other things, allows 18 surprise inspections by both sides each year.

    The latest inspection came as the dispute over Crimea intensified and the White House worried that Russia might move to annex more of Ukraine.

    Russia’s seizure of the Black Sea peninsula, home to one of its largest naval bases at Sevastopol, has triggered the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War.

    The US and Russian presidents subsequently imposed sanctions on each other’s top aides, but officials on both sides emphasize they would like to keep it that way and continue with bilateral cooperation in other areas.

    President Barack Obama announced additional sanctions against 20 Russian political and business leaders Thursday and issued a new executive order to authorize penalties against “key sectors of the Russian economy” if necessary.

    On Saturday, Russian troops used armored vehicles and automatic gunfire to seize a Ukrainian airbase in Crimea, a day after President Vladimir Putin signed laws completing the annexation of the peninsula.

    The White House says intelligence from the field indicates that Moscow might engage in military incursions into more of Ukraine in the coming days, CNN reported.

    HRJ/HRJ

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/03/23/355737/russian-officials-inspect-us-nuke-arsenal/

  504. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 7:55 pm

    “you would have more credibility with me if you hadn’t so blandly promoted the 9/11 Commission report”

    I didn’t I juts made the point that there had been a Commission of enquiry into 9/11 when someone else said there hadn’t and that it was critical of the failure in intelligence by the CIA. You are wrong in taking that for a complete acceptance of the report or its promotion. You can still believe that 9/11 was conducted by Al Queada and be critical of the US handling of the war on terror. There are rather more shades of opinion on this matter than just the two that are assumed here.

  505. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:05 pm

    (Hello Clark!)

    “you would have more credibility with me if you hadn’t so blandly promoted the 9/11 Commission report”

    - ?. I mean, not everyone can investigate everything. Personally, having seen that rotten film which had subliminal whispering under it – can’t remember what it was called – I gave up even thinking about it, apart from the horror. I know about Northwoods, of course. But whatever 9/11 was, apart from a tragedy, it was still no excuse for state bombing and murdering and torture, and the surveillance terror states which have followed – and this is, I think, the important thing.

  506. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:07 pm

    John: would you like to clarify your linking to Andrew Murray’s piece, in the light of Mark Steel’s piece?

  507. Could this be player behind the putsch in Ukraine Viktor Pinchuk.He bankrolled his buddie Arseniy Yatsenyuk the puppet prime minister of Ukraine along best friends being the Clinton’s plus the motley crew of US ,UK EU politicians

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article182303.html

  508. You can tell I’m a JTRIG sock-puppet because both my comments above were submitted within a minute… No.

    Actually, I just wrote one comment, opened an extra tab for this thread on Firefox, wrote the other comment so that both were prepared, and then submitted both within seconds of each other. I wanted to get messages to both “sides” to appear simultaneously.

    I haven’t refreshed the page since submitting them, so I don’t yet know whether anyone has noticed.

  509. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:32 pm

    “You are behind the curve on Seymour, he turned into another turncoat Neocon Apologist some time ago;”

    Well eight days ago according to the post you link to – but I suppose that is enough for him to be airbrushed out of history. And after he did all that good word dancing on the grave of Agent Hitchens – have you no sense of gratitude.

    Taxi for left unity!

  510. Hello Technicolour!

  511. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:44 pm

    I think the thing about the modern ‘left’ in fact is this idea of ‘unity’. Unity with the undertrodden, for sure, but unity with the leaders? In an authoritarian structure, which the ‘left’ still clings to, isn’t it just a cover for ‘you must think how I think’? There is, for me, a general decency and care for others traditionally involved in the left, which isn’t generally seen in people who call themselves ‘right’. But sometimes – see Mark Steel’s piece – this is an illusion, and sometimes, as in the cases of the late Earls of Onslow and Cardigan – both of whom came under fire from their own hierarchies – this duty of care also flourishes in ‘the right’.

    Moving beyond power structures would seem to be a reasonable aim in both cases. Currently we are facing a government, and world powers, who are acting like robbers, so it behoves everyone decent on all sides to analyse exactly what motivates them and what they can do about it.

  512. There’s not much more than a fag paper between the shades of opinion and tactics of you (Resident Dissident), Habbadbuk thing, Anon, ESLO, N_, Kempe and a few other curious sock-puppets and trolls. As shady are one issue robots includin Uzbek-in-Uzbekistan and the work-experience YOPPER Fred (Bull) with his peculiar contorted foul-mouthed anti-nationalist British Nationalism. It’s an odd state of affairs indeed. Seasoned and casual observers might rightly infer they are all the same person, or reading the same mendacious script. In these days of unending austerity for the great majority, though with the idle rich still at play unchecked and unrepentant, if cuts there must be then surely it behoves the government to reduce the considerable sums wasted on duplication of these ineffectual disinfo warriors. Ultimately funded from ransoming the public like the execrable propaganda and blood dripping BBC, these lobotomised de-sensitised apologists for ruthless power have rapidly spread across the internet like some metastasising cancer. It would be far better to have just one official state approved, clearly identifiable troll per blog or site, saving the government’s black budget the salaries pensions and medical care costs of these burned-out surplus willing-idiot imbeciles.

    I am close to becoming an oligarch and may soon have my own herd of braying trolls.
    With just a few more needed, I will soon have cornered the market in double-filament stop/tail bulbs with one or more filaments gone.
    Fear me.

    Millicent Corsett.

  513. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:51 pm

    Tony M; that was very funny, but you could say exactly the same about John Goss/Mary/Doug Scorgie. I hope both sides are being funded equally.

    Must say that at least John engages. But then so does RD.

  514. Technicolour, at my best guess, the problem the Left has with unity is that they advocate it but are not suited to it, being a collection of rebels and revolutionaries, so as soon as a consensus develops (read “authority”) some individuals and groups feel like breaking away from it or defeating it.

    The Right has no such problem as they agree to all be in competition with each other in the first place, and tacitly accept that authority flows from having more money or power, each always remembering that his own sufficient success in competition would change the pecking-order in his favour.

  515. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:57 pm

    Not widely reported, by the way. Most reports put at at a million to 2 million (confirmed by sources on the ground):

    http://usatopnews.us/news/march-for-dignity-spain-has-had-enough-say-25-million-protesters-newsgnomes

  516. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 8:58 pm

    Clark, hmm, did you read Mark Steele’s piece? I can’t disagree with it.

  517. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 9:00 pm

    Perhaps it’s *because* they’re widely seen as rebels that they’re so terrified of rebellion…

  518. Resident Dissident; “Well eight days ago according to the post you link to”

    Err no; he started to go off the rails on Libya, around the time he starting writing for the Guardian; as always, follow the money. Now with Syria & the Ukraine, he has fully turned into a Slug, as Galloway famously describe the morally bankrupt drift to the Right,

  519. Technicolour, 8:58 pm; yes, I just read Mark Steele’s article; seems about right. As to 9/11, I felt that Resident Dissident should be informed that when he told John Goss that an enquiry had already been performed, he was referring to evidence extracted under torture.

    You are right that 9/11 was a tragedy. It was also a crime, and crimes should be properly investigated. Torture results in false confessions, which is why such “evidence” is unacceptable in any respectable court.

  520. technicolour

    23 Mar, 2014 - 9:47 pm

    Clark, absolutely, thanks for background, didn’t know that about the ‘enquiry’. Have, as I said, kept away (mea culpa, probably)

  521. Resident Dissident

    23 Mar, 2014 - 10:22 pm

    Clark

    Perhaps your informants could tell me which bits of the Commission’s evidence were obtained under torture and might therefore be considered unreliable – surely not the whole lot? Could they also indicate which parts of the 9/11 truthers case was provided by those with political axes to grind against the US and might also therefore be considered somewhat less than neutral. I do so like someone who is prepared to exercise my own judgememt for me especially since I lack the necessary brainpower to make my own assessment of the evidence.

  522. There’s an aspect to all this that I haven’t seen anyone from either side address. What if the overthrow in Ukraine is both a popular movement and fascist/extreme Right?

    Something that’s been worrying me for a while is the similarity between current events and the situation in the 1930s before the Second World War: harsh economic conditions and a popular political move towards the extreme Right.

    People tend to forget that it wasn’t just Germany that moved to the Right in the 1930s. In Britain, eugenicists were popular, and Mosley and his Blackshirts were openly supported by the Daily Mail. Italy became fascist too, of course.

  523. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 Mar, 2014 - 10:36 pm

    Grownups.

    You’ve been at it all day haven’t you?

    Convenient as it may be to construct a narrative where the evil Putin turns huge numbers of Russians into land-grabbing monsters there is a growing weight of undisputable facts which explain the unwillingness of millions of Ukrainians of all ethnicities to accept rule from the current Kiev regime.

    Just a few facts;

    Nuland’s boast about spending $5 billion on US agendas in Ukraine.

    Nuland’s recorded conversation with Pyatt clearly micromanaging the coup.

    Ashcroft’s recorded knowledge of snipers firing on both sides at Maidan and her subsequent failure to respond to this knowledge.

    Nato’s failure to keep it’s promise not to expand eastwards.

    The new Ukraine regime’s large proportion of ultra-right ministers.

    The new gregime’s prompt actions to downgrade the use of the Russian language, visa restrictions and failure to investigate the sniper issue.

    Righr Sector gangs brutalising public officials, media managers and ethnic Russians and showing anyone who wants to see them at work via Youtube.

    Obama, Kerry, Power and the rest huffing and puffing (“You can’t just invade another country under phoney pretexts….”) in ways so breathtakingly hypocritical that only the lobotomized can fail to notice.

    and on and on…

    So, leaving aside all the top-down focus let’s just consider what it must feel like for Ukrainians of all ethnicities, and for many who would have supported the early peaceful demonstrations in Kiev. Imagine if such things had happened in our own countries.

    Once even a few of these facts sink in, does anyone really believe that ordinary, intelligent people will still be seeing what has happened as a likely prelude to a bright, democratic future? Those who still believe the corporate media will, very soon start to experience what IMF servitude means. Do you think they won’t begin to ask why and be shocked and disgusted by what has been foisted on them?

    At this point wouldn’t a rational person opt for a future with the Russian federation, with all it’s imperfections, rather than indefinite indebtedness and IMF austerity, patrolled by Right Sector enforcers?

    Here’s a short piece of propaganda.

    http://rt.com/news/us-accuses-russia-shooting-981/

    I wonder whose parent feels proud and whose feels shamed. Judge for yourselves.

    ….

    RD. 6 16pm

    “The real KGB goons are pretty easy to spot.”

    I’m not as bright as you, so could you please help me with a name or two and some advice on how to spot them. Thanks

  524. “People tend to forget that it wasn’t just Germany that moved to the Right in the 1930s. In Britain, eugenicists were popular, and Mosley and his Blackshirts were openly supported by the Daily Mail. Italy became fascist too, of course.”

    Yes, I’ve seen it on this blog. The place is crawling with ‘blackshirts’ except they are not wearing uniforms. They do however change their socks on a regular basis.

  525. Resident Dissident, I’m not too good at interpreting sarcasm; I find it difficult to tell where it begins and ends without non-verbal cues. If you could repost your requests as boringly direct questions I’ll have a go at answering them.

    As far as the “9/11 Truthers” are concerned, I think that the fact that there are so many of them (us?) is more an effect than a cause. Over twelve years on, and there has never been a proper investigation, despite war after war, loss of civil liberties, the huge expansion of private security and its incestuous relationship with government, and universal surveillance a la Orwell’s 1984 as revealed by Snowden all being based upon that one event.

    As to my “informants”, I’d consider the two co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission itself pretty authoritative sources; wouldn’t you? I’ll expand upon the section from my comment above:

    The two co-chairs of the Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, believe that the government established the Commission in a way that ensured that it would fail. In their book Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission describing their experience serving, Hamilton listed a number of reasons for reaching this conclusion, including: the late establishment of the Commission and the very short deadline imposed on its work; the insufficient funds (3 million dollars), initially allocated for conducting such an extensive investigation (later the Commission requested additional funds but received only a fraction of the funds requested and the chairs still felt hamstrung); the many politicians who opposed the establishment of the Commission; the continuing resistance and opposition to the work of the Commission by many politicians, particularly those who did not wish to be blamed for any of what happened; the deception of the Commission by various key government agencies, including the Department of Defense, NORAD and the FAA; and, the denial of access by various agencies to documents and witnesses. “So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail.”

    You can read the transcript of an interview on CBC here:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070108233707/http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/911hamilton.html

  526. “As far as the “9/11 Truthers” are concerned, I think that the fact that there are so many of them (us?) is more an effect than a cause.”

    Don’t waste your keyboard skills Clark. RD has a good friend who lost a family member in 9/11 and that family friend does not want an Inquiry so as far as he’s concerned there should not be an Inquiry. At least that’s my understanding when I presented him with the following list of experts, survivors and families who do.

    220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
    1,500+ Engineers and Architects
    250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
    400+ Professors Question 9/11
    300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
    200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
    400+ Medical Professionals

  527. In fact it seems like RD does not believe in Inquiries per se. Certainly, he has not supported one for the Ukraine or 9/11.

  528. This is what I have been saying ,its not rocket science to work it out,that is unless you are thick. People like myself who were around during WW2 and were in the services during the cold war no the score.All we get is lies from the western media.http://www.moderntokyotimes.com/2014/03/19/useu-most-responsible-for-crisis-in-ukraine-crimean-people-have-spoken/

  529. Clark @10:23pm

    Do its origins matter so much, even if it’s ‘popular’, which is doubtful, it’s undoubtedly nasty, brutal, illegal, undemocratic and backed by the EU countries, US and NATO, which are every bit as nasty, brutal, illegal, undemocratic themselves. Power can and does so easily lead a people by the nose.

    Harsh economic conditions seem to have spared some sectors of the population, all around I see shameless display of wealth and conspicuous consumption, destruction of assets for mere amusement, continuing unaffected, from the lower-middle classes upwards. “What recession?” they might and do snigger. It is only when macro-economic conditions trigger hyper-inflation, devaluing their unearned loot, that those who consider themselves the anointed superiors, the middle and upper classes, begin squealing; so far this recession has only impinged on the poor masses in each society and country. Not all in it together.

    Germany’s move to the right took a long time, with those who were school children when the nazis seized power, forming through state organised indoctrination and training the bulk of the eventual armies that went on the rampage. I think those in power given time can drag a population in any direction, to extremes, without seeming conscious choice made by individuals, culminating in a government reflecting popular opinion as government easily prescribes public opinion. Characterising the thirties was a unique new factor -the power of mass-media: radio, cheap, dirt cheap print newspapers, combined with much wider literacy, all of which the right effectively controlled from its origins, telling the people what to think, and which was instrumental, rather than an infectious collective madness breaking out.

    I think what especially characterises the right if we must use these near meaningless left-right terms, of obscure French origin, is exceptionalism, ideas of racial superiority, manifest destiny: the US genocidaires, the Nazis, Zionists, British Empire mad elitists, and the Italian fascists having their essential myths of being special or chosen ones; combining this with for-profit narrow interest control of essentials to human survival by a powerful few, in whose pockets the politicians reside. For the left, anti-monopolism, state control of strategic, core industries, public services, production and supply of necessities like food and water, power/fuel, along with recognition that you, or any one person is of no more or less worthiness than any another person anywhere in the world living now. The left-right thing is really civilisation, progress from the left versus the essentially barbaric chaos, destruction and waste of the right.

    We’ve long been governed by the right uninterruptedly, completely and seemingly insolubly, if the people started goose-stepping, they’d still be miles further to the left than any western government they’ve ever known or had or heard of. If the German timeline is anything to learn from, the present illegal regime in Ukraine will get considerably less pleasant and entrench itself rather quickly, but with little or no immediate outward sign of any change. If Russia were to ‘invade’ Ukraine (ignoring the sad fact our media screams constantly untruthfully that they have, already), and right its usurpation by the right, I think we’d all breathe a sigh of relief and sleep easier on our park benches and doorways.

  530. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 12:12 am

    Today a mob from a shadowy group calling themselves “Odessa Philharmonic Orchestra” forced innocent Crimeans to listen to classical music.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2R1X28sJaE

    When will the world is wake up to the depravity of the secessionists?

    Goodnight.

  531. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 12:19 am

    И специальный спокойной ночи мой прекрасный житель Диссидент, эксперт по КГБ.

  532. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 12:25 am

    Ой!

  533. Dave Lawton; “its not rocket science to work it out,that is unless you are thick.”

    Indeed,the problem is exactly the fools & knaves that Craig’s Russophobia has attracted.

  534. mean mister mustard

    24 Mar, 2014 - 3:10 am

    ” If the German timeline is anything to learn from, the present illegal regime in Ukraine will get considerably less pleasant and entrench itself rather quickly, but with little or no immediate outward sign of any change. If Russia were to ‘invade’ Ukraine (ignoring the sad fact our media screams constantly untruthfully that they have, already), and right its usurpation by the right, I think we’d all breathe a sigh of relief and sleep easier on our park benches and doorways.”

    As stately and perceptive as any Ambassador’s expectation of hisself/herself might/should have.

    The issue of how the public, in ostensibly fair elections, might react if their MP were suddenly found on the ‘wrong side’ of the polling.

    Now if the EU should promise free Wi-Fi, sans license or fees for the Public at Large, the average voter’s response, as always will hold sway, and we can predict a rapid victory for the promoters.

    It’s a simple matter of personal economics and the EU is the Pigford elephant whose presence can’t be ignored.

  535. Thanks for «Ода к радости» Sofia. And there was me thinking they were all queuing for tomatoes. Oh, sorry, wrong era!

    In a school play I took the part of Theseus and one of my lines was:

    “Joy, gentle friends, joy, and fresh days of love accompany your gentle hearts..”

    Or something. You have to think of Beethoven! But then, wishing your friends joy is one thing. Your enemies another. I notice you extended your peaceful wishes to Resident Dissident which is much better than Francis Bacon’s selective good wishes.

    “To my real friends champagne, and to my sham friends real pain.”

    Or something.

  536. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    24 Mar, 2014 - 7:18 am

    Resident Dissident

    “I disagree I don’t think Putin would be daft enough to pay some of those you name – and if he did he would want his money back. The real KGB goons are pretty easy to spot.”
    _________________

    I didn’t mean rasPutin, I was thinking about people nearer home who might want to see Craig’s blog discredited through the sheer zaniness/extremism of some of the posts.

  537. Resident Dissident

    24 Mar, 2014 - 7:19 am

    “The place is crawling with ‘blackshirts’ except they are not wearing uniforms.”

    The only person supporting fascists here is yourself – now kindly fuck off back to the your Rothschilds and Elders of Zion conspiracies you racist bigot.

  538. “The only person supporting fascists here is yourself – now kindly fuck off back to the your Rothschilds and Elders of Zion conspiracies you racist bigot.”

    Tut, tut. Touched a nerve there.

  539. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 8:00 am

    RD.

    Ах! Резидент Диссидент, мой маленький цыпленок. Успокойтесь. Как говорится в Бирмингеме, Видна́ пти́ца по полёту.

    О, “The real KGB goons are pretty easy to spot.” Я все еще жду вам совет в этом серьезном вопросе.

  540. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 8:40 am

    Товарищ Гослинг. Вы должны быть более осторожными. Я думаю, что они на нас. Нет больше советские мультфильмы стиля.

  541. Sofia, I think it was the sentence that followed: “The place is crawling with ‘blackshirts’ except they are not wearing uniforms.” that really touched the nerve. A sentence which most people would have shrugged off as a bit of fun, a caricature of мультфильм, unless of course guilt played a part.

    This, after all you did with Beethoven to try and heal the wounds! What more can a paramedic do?

  542. John Goss; “A sentence which most people would have shrugged off as a bit of fun”

    Sadly people often lash out when on the ropes, especially when struggling to defend their positions.

  543. The trolls resort to using four letter expletives when they are challenged and cannot provide an answer.

  544. “A week later, on March 12, Christine Lagarde, met the interim Prime Minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk at IMF headquarters in Washington. Lagarde reaffirmed the IMF’s commitment:

    “[to putting Ukraine back] on the path of sound economic governance and sustainable growth, while protecting the vulnerable in society. … We are keen to help Ukraine on its path to economic stability and prosperity.”(Press Release: Statement by IMF Managing Director Christine Lagarde on Ukraine)

    The above statement is wrought with hypocrisy. In practice, the IMF does not wield “sound economic governance” nor does it protect the vulnerable. It impoverishes entire populations, while providing “prosperity” to a small corrupt and subservient political and economic elite.”

    Michel Chossudovsky

    http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/24/regime-change-ukraine-imfs-bitter-economic-medicine/

  545. Owen Jones in today’s Guardian: “Libya will surely continue its descent into mayhem, and the region could be dragged into the mire with it.”

    This, I suspect, was precisely the plan. Plenty of scope for “humanitarian intervention” in the future. Plenty of Libyan weapons turning up in Syria, too — in the hands of the heart-eating crazies.

    Send in Big John (Simpson, not Wayne). He’ll re-liberate the place.

    Speaking of neocon shock-doctrine wars, today is the 15th anniversary of the Serbia bombing. Camp Bondsteel — the Butlins of the Balkans — singalong confessions, knobbly knees (broken) and plenty of heroin and harvested organs.

    Loverly.

  546. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 3:33 pm

    No stone left unturned in the quest for an “incident”. Don’t they know they’ve been well sussed?

    “Earlier on Saturday, Crimean authorities reported a temporary seal-off of the border from the Ukrainian side, which they said also blockaded about 2,000 Ukrainian troops who had opted to leave the region. “

    From, “Ukraine turmoil LIVE UPDATES” http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/

    Incidentally, of course RT promote a Russian perspective and a person needs to look at other sources, but I’ve noticed with this thread since the start, that it’s details more often than not correspond with what emerges, later from unrelated sources. Details from MSM sources, often just repeating Ukraine junta briefings, tend to sink without trace soon after colliding with observable, verifiable reality.

  547. Organs and heroin, lest we forget:

    http://www.haaretz.com/meta/Tag/Israel%20organ%20harvesting

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/13/balkans

    What a nice bunch. And all achieved without any involvement from anyone at Camp Bondsteel, it should be noted.

    Ah, the wonders of plausible deniability…

  548. Yep, Sofia. The truth is that Crimea has been “returned” to Russia (oh I can feel a salvo of brickbats coming on!) was achieved with very little bloodshed. A sniper shot one from each side. Now THERE’S a familiar M.O.

    Not quite shock and awe. Don’t the Russian know they have to put on a spectacular fireworks display for the cameras?

  549. Check out the lead thread folks. It’s happening here too.

    WTF? Keywords? What are they? Craig is buying ball-gags by the gross to make the discourse sterile or emasculated? Enquiring minds want to know.

    Whazzup with the thuggery?

  550. “Incidentally, of course RT promote a Russian perspective and a person needs to look at other sources, but I’ve noticed with this thread since the start, that it’s details more often than not correspond with what emerges, later from unrelated sources. Details from MSM sources, often just repeating Ukraine junta briefings, tend to sink without trace soon after colliding with observable, verifiable reality.”

    What you mean of course is that most people are satisfied with the observable verifiable reality reported at the time by those on the ground don’t need to go back and challenge it – while those that aren’t have to invent an alternative reality to fit in with their prejudices. Those who were actually at Euromaidan and the other protests in the Ukraine from November onwards have little doubt about the brutality of Yanukovych’s thugs – and there are plenty of photos and films to verify what happened. Did you know that the entire HIV/AIDs budget of the Ukraine was stolen by Yanukovych and his accomplices?

  551. Posted on wrong thread.

    Hmmm. More ‘popular uprising’ in Odessa?

    http://rt.com/news/east-ukraine-rallies-referendum-701/

  552. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 4:18 pm

    Mike. 3 41 pm

    “Don’t the Russian know they have to put on a spectacular fireworks display for the cameras?”

    Yes, those pesky Russians done got the wrong end of the stick, again! Shock and Awe needs bodies. Why can’t they play by the rules?

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/crimean-night-sky-lit-by-fireworks-mark-russia-union-1441369

  553. Shock and awe — 500,000 to 1 million dead.

    Crimean takeover — 2

    Those feral, power-mad Rooskies…

  554. The death throes of Petrodollar?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-21/petrodollar-alert-isolated-west-putin-prepares-announce-holy-grail-gas-deal-china

    “While Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the “Holy Grail” energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis. One which, as some especially on these pages, have suggested would lay the groundwork for a new joint, commodity-backed reserve currency that bypasses the dollar, something which Russia implied moments ago when its finance minister Siluanov said that Russia may refrain from foreign borrowing this year. Translated: bypass western purchases of Russian debt, funded by Chinese purchases of US Treasurys, and go straight to the source.”

  555. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) a!

    24 Mar, 2014 - 5:43 pm

    “Russia is preparing the announcement of the “Holy Grail” energy deal with none other than China,…”
    ________________-

    This is just dis-information from the source Ben’s using. There will be no such deal.

  556. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 9:44 pm

    ELSO. 4 25pm

    http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/588377/crimeas-ethnic-tatars-flee-for-fear-of-moscow-backlash

    Enough observable verifiable reality for you Sofia?”

    Well, no. Not really.

    Don’t you think the Tatars may be being used a convenient stick to beat Russia with? Just a thought.

    There’s no excuse for the appalling treatment of the Tatars of Crimea by the Stalinist regime, but then neither is there any excuse for the Golden Horde’s treatment of the people’s they overran. How far do you want to go back?

    Despite the return of Tatars to Crimea, the emotional scars carried by the Tatar community will likely take generations to heal. So it’s hardly surprising that few of them show much desire to return to government from Moscow. They are caught between fears old enemies and the unpleasantness of the puppet government in Kiev. No doubt when the Palestinians return there will be similar residual suspicions and bad feeling on both sides. I wish them all well.

    There are signs that the new Crimean government is making an effort to protect the human rights an culture of Tatar people.

    http://www.sott.net/article/275449-Encouraging-Crimean-parliament-guarantees-broader-rights-to-Tatar-minority

    My bet is that the unpleasantness of the new Crimean government towards Tatars will be consistent with the violence of the “Russian Invasion”. Time will tell.

    ….

    BTW. Can you get your mate Res Dis to return and tell us how to spot the KGB goons he says infest this blog. It’s a bit cruel of him to tell us he knows who they are and then abandon us to whatever horrors they have planned for us.

  557. End of Petrodollar #2?

    http://presstv.com/detail/2014/03/24/355851/india-ready-to-pay-iran-in-euros-for-oil/

    Watch out Iran, you know what happens to countries trying to sell oil in Euros. The clock is ticking, and I reckon Uncle Sam knows that fine well.

    “When the Palestinians return…”

    We can only hope, but I think Israel would rather the world burns than have that happen.

  558. Resident Dissident

    24 Mar, 2014 - 10:53 pm

    @Mary

    “The trolls resort to using four letter expletives when they are challenged and cannot provide an answer.”

    Mary I used an expletive when the deplorable and dishonest Goss called me a blackshirt after failing to address my previous challenge as to when I had ever expressed support for Svoboda as he claimed (see my post of 23 March 7:47pm) – I have more than answered any serious and diversionary questions answered by the evasive Goss.

    And I must say I did smile at the thought of this point being raised by someone who is not exactly forthcoming when her own views are challenged.

  559. Resident Dissident

    24 Mar, 2014 - 10:54 pm

    Asked by Goss – not answered in the last post – though it hardly needs to be said.

  560. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 10:59 pm

    Mike. 9 58pm

    Re return home of Palestinians.

    “We can only hope, but I think Israel would rather the world burns than have that happen.”

    “Several studies in Israel and one conducted by AIPAC and another by the Jewish National  Fund in Germany show that perhaps as many as half of the Jews living in Israel will consider leaving Palestine in the next few years if current political and social trends continue.”

    http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=18096&cid=41&fromval=1

    It strikes me that the roots of the settler people in the lands of Palestine are shallow and weak compared to the ancient deep roots of Palestinians.

    The survival of the Palestinian culture through all these years of dispossession and brutality augurs well for the eventual return, though I, like you fear that the madness of it’s current rulers may leave a wasteland to return to.

  561. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 11:06 pm

    RD.

    Good to see you back.

    Please let me in on your way to spot “KGB stooges” who you say post here.

    Aren’t they a bit like the Japanese soldiers who emerged from the jungles decades after WW2 ended?

    Do you think we should tell them the Soviet Union no longer exists? Would that be cruel?

  562. Gegenbeispiel

    24 Mar, 2014 - 11:10 pm

    Kenneth Sorensen wrote >”Either its me or you. Do you understand? Either you close this website down in recognition that you’re just a nut case, or I’ll be leaving. Which will you prefer?”

    Please, please leave and shut up. You’re a despicable right-wing fool who has no time for freedom of speech. Go to hell – or to whoever employs you: CIA ? Foggy Bottom ? AEI ? AIPAC? !!

  563. Resident Dissident

    24 Mar, 2014 - 11:20 pm

    Sofia

    Look at those who arrived post the invasion of Crimea

  564. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 11:21 pm

    Yes. And?

  565. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 11:23 pm

    RD.

    Come on. Who are they? I’m a bit thick you see so I can’t get by on hints.

  566. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 Mar, 2014 - 11:57 pm

    Only 11% of Ukrainian soldiers opted to quit Crimea,

    http://rt.com/news/ukrainian-soldiers-leave-crimea-577/

  567. Habby says of potentially big Russian gas deal with China:

    “This is just dis-information from the source Ben’s using. There will be no such deal.”

    How do you know?

    Which sources in Ben’s article are you disputing?

    And why are Citi saying the same thing:

    “We expect the contract to be signed in the course of 2014,” Ronald Smith, an oil and gas analyst at Citigroup Inc. in Moscow said by e-mail. “We continue to list the China contract as one of the three key catalysts for Gazprom in 2014.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-22/gazprom-says-china-natural-gas-deal-delayed-to-putin-s-may-visit.html

    This is precisely when the deal will be done because Russia’s under pressure/China gets the best price, and you know whose fault that is, eh brains?

    Teenage neocons!!

    ==================================

    Sell USD, EURO, the car, that nice flat in Paris…

  568. Russia Could Crush the Petrodollar

    Russia threatened to dump its U.S. treasuries if America imposed sanctions regarding Russia’s action in the Crimea.

    Zero Hedge argues that Russia has already done so.

    But veteran investor Jim Sinclair argues that Russia has a much scarier financial attack which Russia can use against the U.S.

    Specifically, Sinclair says that if Russia accepts payment for oil and gas in any currency other than the dollar – whether it’s gold, the Euro, the Ruble, the Rupee, or anything else – then the U.S. petrodollar system will collapse:

    Indeed, one of the main pillars for U.S. power is the petrodollar, and the U.S. is desperate for the dollar to maintain reserve status. Some wise commentators have argued that recent U.S. wars have really been about keeping the rest of the world on the petrodollar standard.

    The theory is that – after Nixon took the U.S. off the gold standard, which had made the dollar the world’s reserve currency – America salvaged that role by adopting the petrodollar. Specifically, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia agreed that all oil and gas would be priced in dollars, so the rest of the world had to use dollars for most transactions.

    But Reuters notes that Russia may be mere months away from signing a bilateral trade deal with China, where China would buy huge quantities of Russian oil and gas.

    Zero Hedge argues:

    Add bilateral trade denominated in either Rubles or Renminbi (or gold), add Iran, Iraq, India, and soon the Saudis (China’s largest foreign source of crude, whose crown prince also happened to meet president Xi Jinping last week to expand trade further) and wave goodbye to the petrodollar.

    In any event, a switch to pricing petroleum in anything other than dollars exclusively – whether a single alternative currency, gold, or even a mix of currencies or commodities – would spell the end of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.

    For that reason, Sinclair – no fan of either Russia or Putin – urges American leaders to back away from an economic confrontation with Russia, arguing that the U.S. would be the loser.

    More From this Copy @

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/forget-russia-dumping-u-s-treasuries-heres-the-real-economic-threat/5374756

    Further….

    Forcing home the symbolism of his trip, Igor Sechin gathered media in Tokyo the next day to warn Western governments that more sanctions over Moscow’s seizure of the Black Sea peninsula from Ukraine would be counter-productive.

    The underlying message from the head of Russia’s biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances.

    THE HOLY GRAIL FOR MOSCOW IS A NATURAL GAS SUPPLY DEAL WITH CHINA – that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West.

    More @

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-insight-idUSBREA2K07S20140321

  569. Sofia Kibo Noh

    25 Mar, 2014 - 1:03 am

    Некоторые музыка для наших товарищей из КГБ. Вы можете идти домой в любое удобное время. Вечеринка закончилась.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxyISsA0Oh0

    Сладких снов.

  570. Now the Russians are being blamed for rising food prices.

    Supermarket And Restaurant Bills Set To Soar

    Prices are being driven up by a specific combination of factors, with the cost of fruit rising more than any other food.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1231300/supermarket-and-restaurant-bills-set-to-soar

    ‘Wheat prices are vulnerable to the current political uncertainties stemming from the crisis in Ukraine, a key grain producer.

    Mr Smith added: “If sanctions stop the Russians from exporting wheat and grains, or if the Russians choose to stop exporting, then wheat prices will inevitably go up.”‘

  571. Sofia, thanks for the nostalgia, but if we all go back home they really will believe what they think about us. What is it they tell their chicks in Birmingham? Some sort of rhyme about the sight of a bird in flight? And then the bit about the gosling must have got them curious. I’m sure they’re onto us now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV5ynRFzrIM

  572. Jeeezo Mary… As if things aint bad enough for the poor…

    i was at an Indy-reff-Yes meeting last night, Where one of the Speakers – Jeanne Freeman – was telling of Schools in Dundee, where they have rows of lots of Toasters, and the teachers bring in bread …so that the kids can have something to eat for breakfast.

    That can only get worse methinks…way things are going….and M’P's get what is it £70 a day for lunch.. now.. now…Brian… Temper.

  573. This is nice n healthy stuff….Bitch

    An audio recording of the conversation of the former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and former Deputy Secretary of the National Security Council of Ukraine Nestor Shufrich about Russia’s actions in the Crimea leaked online. The former head of the Ukrainian government soon confirmed her participation in the notorious conversation, noting that one of the moments of the dialogue was edited.

    In the conversation, Tymoshenko and Shufrych discussed the situation in the Crimea. “It’s gone too far. Damn, one must take up arms and go get these goddamned goat-likes [Russians - ed.] along with their leader. I regret that I can not be there now – they would get a **** instead of the Crimea,” says the former prime minister.

    Shufrich then said that even if Tymoshenko had been involved in the endeavor to keep the Crimea, it would not have helped to change the situation. “Although, you know, we didn’t have the military capacity,” he said. Tymoshenko objected to that saying: “I would have found a way to get these assholes. I hope that I will get the whole world involved, do the best I can so that there is not even a scorched field left from Russia,” Tymoshenko shared her future plans.

    Shortly after the leak, the ex-prime minister confirmed her participation in the conversation. “The conversation did take place, but the bit about 8 million Russians in Ukraine was edited. I actually said that the Russians in Ukraine were Ukrainians. Hi, FSB :) Sorry for being obscene,” Tymoshenko tweeted.

    Apparently, it goes about the moment when Shufrich asked her about the fate of eight million Russians in Ukraine, to which the ex-prime minister said: “Damn, one should shoot them from nuclear weapons.”

    http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/25-03-2014/127156-yulia_tymoshenko_russia-0/

  574. BrianFujisan

    25 Mar, 2014 – 10:46 am

    Thanks for posting that story again Brian. I think it was posted on another thread by Herbie last night, but it needs to be kept in the public eye, to show that the west is supporting outright fascists and creating with its dollars potential holocausts.

  575. Quite Brian.

    ~~

    I am pleased for the relatives of Cheryl James, one of four young soldiers found dead from gunshot wounds at Deepcut barracks. Grieve has granted a second inquest. You have to admire her relatives who have stuck with it.

    Deepcut barracks death: New inquest hope for family
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26725739

    Surrey Police (Millie Dowler, Al Hilli, Guildford 4, etc, etc) investigated and found nothing suspicious.

    It is just a pity that Grieve refused to grant Dr David Kelly just one inquest.

    ~~

    PS HMG cashing in. More of the state’s assets have been flogged off.

    Green light for 1,200-home Deepcut barracks scheme
    http://www.planningresource.co.uk/article/1191962/green-light-1200-home-deepcut-barracks-scheme

    Poison Gove’s constituency. More Tory voters moving in on the ConDem Help to Buy scheme.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlSpc87Jfr0
    Pete Seeger Little Boxes

  576. “It is just a pity that Grieve refused to grant Dr David Kelly just one inquest.”

    I second that. Some forces are more powerful than the attorney general. As an opposition MP he was calling for an inquest into Dr David Kelly’s death.

  577. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Mar, 2014 - 4:15 pm

    Herbie

    “Habby says of potentially big Russian gas deal with China:

    “This is just dis-information from the source Ben’s using. There will be no such deal.”

    How do you know?”
    _____________________

    In the same way as I knew that your predictions of World War 3 starting in Syria were unfounded, Herbie.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Which sources in Ben’s article are you disputing?”

    ____________________

    There is only one source in Ben’s post. That one.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Why am I shoving my nose into someone else’s conversation?”

    ____________________

    Because you’ve nothing better to do or say, Herbie.

    (I made the last one up)

    ***********************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  578. Should WWIII ever come to pass, then historians, should there be any left, will cite Syria as a contributing event along that path. They’ll also cite Serbia and other events of course, the rape of Russia during the 1990s etc.

    It isn’t Syria in itself that causes the war.

    But anyway, enough education for you, for the moment.

    I and others have already said that Putin is likely working with elements in the west, so please don’t confuse the simple binaries you inhabit with what others are thinking.

    ====================================================

    I’ve noticed that you’re being puerile and annoying to John in the other thread, and getting no satisfaction there, you’re over here talking nonsense.

    It’s like you’re a child always looking for attention. You’ve just never grown up.

    I’d imagine you’re used to having underlings forced to listen to you when you were employed, God help them, but now you’re retired and feeling rather redundant.

    That’s sad, but not uncommon.

    You need a “hinterland”, as Healey used to say. His was photography and plotting world domination. Yours is sadly much less ambitious.

    Anyway, there’s help out there. Making friends is a good start.

    Have you tried that?

    Here’s some other tips:

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/30/retirement.aspx

  579. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Mar, 2014 - 8:18 pm

    Herbie

    And I’ve noted that you’re on here at all times of the day.

    Which in turn reminds me of a question you still haven’t answered, namely : are you presently in employment?

  580. Habby

    Are you perchance of Prussian provenance?

  581. Sofia Kibo Noh

    26 Mar, 2014 - 8:02 am

    Dad. 8 18pm

    “Herbie

    And I’ve noted that you’re on here at all times of the day.

    Which in turn reminds me of a question you still haven’t answered, namely : are you presently in employment?”

    Is this an attempt to debate the Putin issue or an underhand attempt to imply that if a contributor isn’t in someone’s employment then their contribution is somehow weakened?

    Pathetic, either way!

    What about Putin (Prince of Darkness)?

  582. Sofia Kibo Noh

    26 Mar, 2014 - 8:22 am

    BTW. Herbie’s posts indicate he’s bright enough not to need to be anyone’s employee unless he chooses.

    Who employs Dad I wonder?

  583. doug scorgie

    26 Mar, 2014 - 3:42 pm

    Resident Dissident
    21 Mar, 2014 – 9:12 pm

    “For all those who assured us that the Russians, including Putin in his recent speech, would protect the rights of the Crimean Tatars please note that their leader has now been declared persona non grata.”

    FFS ResDis why are you and others on this blog incapable of providing links; references or evidence for your claims so others can subject them to scrutiny?

  584. doug scorgie

    26 Mar, 2014 - 4:04 pm

    Resident Dissident
    22 Mar, 2014 – 9:52 am

    “Am I the only one here who finds Macky’s twisting of Uzbek’s words (which are written in his second language) and his constant bullying somewhat unseemly.”

    ResDis most of the bullying I’ve noticed on this blog seems to be directed to a certain female poster.

    Also ResDis why do you accept without question that Uzbek is genuine and English is his second language?

    Could it not be a case of “me no speakedy English?”

  585. BrianFujisan

    26 Mar, 2014 - 7:57 pm

    Sofia…

    Is this an attempt to debate the Putin issue or an underhand attempt to imply that if a contributor isn’t in someone’s employment then their contribution is somehow weakened?

    Pathetic, either way!

    AGREED…

    That’s pretty Low Even from H…but it’s certainly an attempt at a put down… if indeed Herbie were unfortunately unemployed… then H’s comment could be just cruelly stamping upon a soul who’s Moral Could already be Low…Possibly Struggling to make ends meet, and VERY upset about it… Attempting to belittle such… Could just add to a souls sadness.. it is Beneath contempt.

    Herbie is plainly far too intelligent to ever stoop to such crass insults

  586. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Mar, 2014 - 8:05 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    Is Uzbek genuine?

    Does Mr Scorgie really exist?

    Is there a God?

    Weighty questions, Doug. Please provide links and references for any thoughts you might have on the above.

    Whether FFS or not FFS.

  587. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    26 Mar, 2014 - 8:09 pm

    “BTW. Herbie’s posts indicate he’s bright enough not to need to be anyone’s employee unless he chooses.”
    ______________________

    The above poster gets this week’s OBN (Order of the Brown Nose, as Private Eye readers will know). LOL

  588. “Once again,” Obama said today, “we are confronted with the belief among some that bigger nations can bully smaller ones to get their way.”

    Down the rabbit hole. Through the looking glass. Different planet.

    Take your pick.

  589. “The editors added:

    ‘The aim of sanctions, in other words, would not be to save Crimea, but to deter Mr Putin from going further… Hence the overriding importance of making Mr Putin pay for Crimea.’

    What kind of nutbar working within the UK press establishment would conceive of proposing sanctions against Britain and America, or discuss ‘the overriding importance of making Mr Bush and Mr Blair pay for Iraq’?”

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2014/760-voting-at-gunpoint.html

    Answer provided by Resident Dissident’s “commonsense”;

    “Yes I fear Putin will get away with it – but commonsense says that he needs to know that there is a price for doing so, if only to stop him and others doing it again”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/comment-page-3/#comment-448130

  590. “Also ResDis why do you accept without question that Uzbek is genuine and English is his second language”

    Doug; I’ve wondered about this. I remember occasional threads where he shows up and was reasonable and measured. I think the feigned poor grammar and apparent linguistic confusion is a equine of a different political stripe compared to the original.

  591. “Who employs Dad I wonder?”

    Careful Sofia. The mystery of keywords continues to confound.

  592. “The EU has blood on its hands.”

    Farage for PM!

    Only kidding. But he’s right.

    So Erdogan is mulling the old false flag routine in Syria. You don’t quite read as much on the BBC though, just a headline that tells you about YouTube being blocked.

  593. Resident Dissident

    29 Mar, 2014 - 8:59 pm

  594. Resident Dissident

    29 Mar, 2014 - 9:04 pm

    “Also ResDis why do you accept without question that Uzbek is genuine”

    Because I have been to Russia and Uzbekistan and what he says is entirely consistent with what I have seen and read from from other reliable sources. I don’t actually agree with him when he calls some here Mad lefties – I don’t think that those he criticise actually belong to the left, they just want to create the delusion that they do. Sadly I fear he has been driven away by the bullies.

  595. Resident Dissident; “Sadly I fear he has been driven away by the bullies”

    No, driven away by his own bigotry.

    BTW after arguing that the Crimean vote was invalid because it was at “gunpoint” & under “intimidation” due to European standard anti-fraud see-through ballot boxes (!), you finally agreed that this was a moronic argument as the result was inevitably going to be the same given the majority pro-Russian population,so no need at all for unnecessary & gifted Western beating stick, of the Russians fixing the vote; you then switch from that that non-argument to straight Russia bashing, by insisting that the Russians must be punished for the non-crime of ensuring a peaceful referendum (in contrast to the bloodbath in Kiev), therefore to be logical, and to ensure you are not pontificating as a result of Russo-phobia, if you want sanctions, etc on Russia for “annexing” the Crimea, you surely must then also support sanctions against Israel for the totally illegal annexations of the Golan Heights & Palestinian territories, also against Turkey for the ethnic cleansing & 40 year occupation of northern Cyprus ?

  596. Resident Dissident

    30 Mar, 2014 - 9:10 am

    One of the signs of bullies is thinking that they have the right to speak for their targets. As well as being a bully you really are just not that smart.

  597. Resident Dissident

    30 Mar, 2014 - 9:36 am

  598. Resident Dissident; “One of the signs of bullies is thinking that they have the right to speak for their targets. As well as being a bully you really are just not that smart”

    Yes of course, I used my ESP powers to make Uzbek claim that Russians are inherently chauvinistic ! Rather, you will find he did it all by himself,as the Crimean Referendum thread clearly shows.

    Again I used my ESP powers on this very Thread to cause Uzbek’s failure to answer a simple question about the State promoted chauvinism iro Israel & the US, thus causing his Russophobia to be revealed for what is it !

    Re “bulling”, I refer to my reply here;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/comment-page-3/#comment-448119

    For real disgusting vicious bullying I would refer you to the months of abuse Mary had to endure upon the arrival of a certain Habbabkuk.

    Buy hey, I agree, I’m really not that smart ! How can I be, leaving a failing run-down comprehensive school at 16, brought up in a deprived part of London, so no expensive, and university extended education for me ! Yet for some reason, my simple questions cause apparently even very educated people to resort to bizarre obfuscating tactics, (including ex-Ambassadors !), and my simple observations sometimes cause amazingly abusive hysterics !

    Goodness, imagine if only I was “smart” ! :D

    Anyhow enough about me, here’s the question you are trying to avoid again;

    After arguing that the Crimean vote was invalid because it was at “gunpoint” & under “intimidation” due to European standard anti-fraud see-through ballot boxes (!), you finally agreed that this was a moronic argument as the result was inevitably going to be the same given the majority pro-Russian population,so no need at all for unnecessary & gifted Western beating stick, of the Russians fixing the vote; you then switch from that that non-argument to straight Russia bashing, by insisting that the Russians must be punished for the non-crime of ensuring a peaceful referendum (in contrast to the bloodbath in Kiev), therefore to be logical, and to ensure you are not pontificating as a result of Russo-phobia, if you want sanctions, etc on Russia for “annexing” the Crimea, you surely must then also support sanctions against Israel for the totally illegal annexations of the Golan Heights & Palestinian territories, also against Turkey for the ethnic cleansing & 40 year occupation of northern Cyprus ?

  599. Here’s a Ukrainian anarchist perspective from a few days ago. Original in Spanish here.

    “We are very alarmed because much of the Western left has fallen under the spell of the ” anti -imperialism ” and only condemn the actions of the United States and the European Union. Right now, Russian imperialism is much more dangerous for Ukrainians…It is true that the Ukrainian government is extremely disgusting. Consists of neoliberals who want to implement austerity reforms . Also, there are fascists in the country and are now stronger than before. But the Ukrainian government has consistently shown they do not want a war. And the Russian regime is an obvious aggressor, the most reactionary force in Europe today … We can try and fight our own fascist , but need help if Russian fascists divide this country along with the Ukrainian fascists.”

  600. here‘s another interview with a Ukranian which includes:

    “Right now the biggest threat to the left is the Russian invasion…The left forces abroad should condemn the war and show solidarity with Ukrainian workers, and not the nationalist and neoliberal government. We can fight our local nazis, but Putin’s “protection” will be much worse”

    Both stories are similar and from media with a history that suggests the source(s) are credible. This is also the same pov coming from my non-anarchist friends in Kiev.

  601. Here’s an article wondering how we might tackle the increasing success of the street fighting right in the ‘global uprising’ (from Ukraine, Venezuela to Bosnia, Greece, USA). Although it is labelled an anarchist text it should be interesting to all.

    http://crimethinc.com/texts/ux/ukraine.html

  602. Resident Dissident

    30 Mar, 2014 - 1:27 pm

    Macky

    And when did you stop beating your wife? You see even simple questions don’t need to be turned into a diatribe of self righteousness.

    Phil

    It’s not just Ukrainians that understand the real nature of Putin – there are not a few Russians as well. Right wing nationalists waving the flag is the oldest thing in the book.

  603. Thank you Phil for those extracts from a Ukrainian prospective; the first person starts off by expressing “alarmed because much of the Western left has fallen under the spell of the ” anti -imperialism ”, whereas in fact general Liberal/Left Wing opinion in the West, is more than alarmed that some people who should know better, if only through clear examples of the recently documented past, are now seeking to deny/minimize the role/responsibility of the West in the events leading upto & during the violent overthrow of his/hers legitimate government. He/She talks about “Russian imperialism” & that “the Russian regime is an obvious aggressor”, whereas to most fair minded observers, Russian actions are of a defensive re-active nature rather than moves of a calculating instigator keen on expanding a Greater Russia; the fact that the Ukrainian Russians, with natural affinity to Russia, are labelled as “fascists”, and are put in equivalence with the Kiev fascists, tells you all you need to know about this particular person.

    The second extract starts with a reference to a “Russian invasion”, so I guess the author must be living on a different planet, as there is no such invasion, no such occupation, and states that “Putin’s “protection” will be much worse” than the chaos & austerity that will be the inevitable fruits of the fascist/nationalist/neoliberal “government” in Kiev, which is rather strange on several levels, the first being that Putin has not shown any intention of taking over the Ukraine, his very generous financial aid bail-out proposal, and the years of subsidized/cheap gas supplies do not really indicate a fate worse then being governed by the criminal thugs presently in Kiev.

    What really should concern the authors of these two extracts, is that as Ukrainians, not only did outside interests ferment, encourage & ultimately hi-jack the genuine discontent with their elected Government, not only did this nefarious foreign factor cause/contribute to the incredible bloodshed of their own compatriots, not only has this resulted in the bunch of the very unsavory people now put in power, with the resulting impending chaos looming, but that as Ukrainians, they were robbed of their democratic right to vote out the person that they had previously voted in for somebody new & legitimate, and in less than a year’s time.

    I know you mean well Phil, and yes it’s important to have local prospectives, but please don’t automatically think these POV’s are just normal middle of the road views, as they certainly seem very partisan to me.

  604. Resident Dissident; “And when did you stop beating your wife? You see even simple questions don’t need to be turned into a diatribe of self righteousness”

    As we have established that I’m not very smart, can you please explain what your wife has got to do with a very simple request to be consistent? If you cannot condemn the two examples I gave, but still insist on condemning the Russian for the same thing, then the only logical conclusion is that you are not at all concern with the “crime”, but rather who the criminal is, so all that you say on this matter should be viewed as the hypocritical & bias nonsense that it is.

    “there are not a few Russians as well”

    So you keep saying, and probably there might even be some, but if you have provided any links for this assertion, then I must of missed them.

  605. Resident Dissident

    30 Mar, 2014 - 7:58 pm

    Some well needed sense on the Ukraine

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n06/james-meek/putins-counter-revolution

    Macky

    I can and have condemned the two examples of others occupying territories that they shouldn’t – that doesn’t mean that the responses should all be the same or even more bizarrely that the response should be the same throughout the time cycle of each case. There are different counterparties involved, with different strengths, weaknesses and characteristics and the circumstances of acquisition were different in each case.

    I have in the past given many links in the past to the views of those Russians who dissent to the extreme nationalism and corruption of the Putin regime and also do so in English (there are a lot more in Russian) but here is a good enough starting point if you are genuinely interested and wish to understand that there is a viewpoint that exists outside the Kremlin and Russia Today.

    http://www.interpretermag.com/

    http://imrussia.org/

    http://navalny-en.livejournal.com/ (currently under censorship)

    Masha Gessen’s book – just out in paperback, and Luke Harding’s book are also excellent if you want to know what is really going on – and if you want to understand why opposing Putin does not amount to hating Russia as you so stupidly accuse those who disagree with you.

  606. Resident Dissident

    30 Mar, 2014 - 8:02 pm

    “As we have established that I’m not very smart,”

    Some that I never said of course – bullying is not linked to intelligence and neither is agreeing or not agreeing with most political viewpoints.

  607. Macky 30 Mar, 2014 – 6:54 pm
    “but please don’t automatically think these POV’s are just normal middle of the road views, as they certainly seem very partisan to me.”

    I stated their provenance is anarchists. They will be known as anarchists to other anarchists in Europe long before any of this kicked off. Someone unknown would not get published. If you do not believe what I say then write your own report and send it to the publishers. You will find they will immediately ask who you are and who can vouch for you. These reports are from known Ukrainian anarchists.

    It is nonsense to call them partisan. They clearly oppose both Russia and US/EU. They just judge the Russian state more of a threat to their egalitarian aspirations.

  608. Phil; “I stated their provenance is anarchists. They will be known as anarchists to other anarchists in Europe long before any of this kicked off. Someone unknown would not get published. If you do not believe what I say then write your own report and send it to the publishers. You will find they will immediately ask who you are and who can vouch for you. These reports are from known Ukrainian anarchists”

    Yes you did state where these views were originating from, but you also stated “This is also the same pov coming from my non-anarchist friends in Kiev”; anyhow admittedly I don’t know too much about Anarchist theory, but I would have thought that a basic fundamental must be basic mutual agreement between free, equal citizens, ie respect for a democratic process, which is certainly at odds with what happened in Kiev.

    “It is nonsense to call them partisan. They clearly oppose both Russia and US/EU. They just judge the Russian state more of a threat to their egalitarian aspirations.”

    I called the view “partisan” because of the very strong anti-Russian emphasis, compared to the barely acknowledge nefarious Western involvement in the crises, which I find very irrational for the reasons I stated in my earlier reply to you.

    Do you personally believe that the Russian state is “more of a threat to their egalitarian aspirations”, and if so why ?

  609. Resident Dissident; “Some that I never said of course”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/comment-page-4/#comment-450013

    ??!!

    “As well as being a bully you really are just not that smart”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/comment-page-3/#comment-449899

  610. Macky
    “Yes you did state where these views were originating from, but you also stated “This is also the same pov coming from my non-anarchist friends in Kiev””

    I used to work with a bunch of Ukrainians so I have friends in Kiev and second generation Ukrainians here in the UK. I speak with them. I have spoken with another non-Ukrainian who has been in Kiev during this shitfest. I read reports on sites that I have learnt to trust over time. Every single thing I have heard expresses the tough conclusion.

    “I would have thought that a basic fundamental must be basic mutual agreement between free, equal citizens, ie respect for a democratic process, which is certainly at odds with what happened in Kiev.”

    They are not claiming that the events are ideal. They judge that the conditions for Ukrainians generally, and for a better revolution, would be worse under a Russian backed government. They explicitly acknowledge they are being forced to side with the least bad of two evils.

    “Do you personally believe that the Russian state is “more of a threat to their egalitarian aspirations”, and if so why ?”

    I accept their judgement. I try to not presume I know what is best for other people.

  611. Phil; “I accept their judgement. I try to not presume I know what is best for other people”

    Nobody is asking you to presume to know the best for others, I was merely asking you for your own opinion based on your Ukrainian contacts input plus the various reports you say you have read; anyhow perhaps you can venture an informed guess on the “why” question, or if not, perhaps enquire next time you engage with your Ukrainian contacts, as I’m genuinely interested to know the answer.

  612. CRAIG:

    There is no country more hypocritical on voting than our ‘special firends’ across the pond in fascist Amerika.

    This about sums up Amerikas Demoracy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1zRfXkOmPI

  613. Resident Dissident; “I can and have condemned the two examples of others occupying territories that they shouldn’t – that doesn’t mean that the responses should all be the same or even more bizarrely that the response should be the same throughout the time cycle of each case”

    I see, you do condemned others for the same crime, but reserve the right to apply different “responses”, and/or no responses at all; that normally having different standards, and also having your cake, and wanting to eat it.

    Seeing as you are flexible according to the “the time cycle of each case”, perhaps you will now follow Kerry’s dropping of the Crimean issue, and concentrate instead on the future status of the Ukraine, eg federalization, etc ;

    http://darussophile.com/2014/04/the-lavrov-kerry-meeting/

  614. Resident Dissident

    3 Apr, 2014 - 9:35 pm

    “I see, you do condemned others for the same crime, but reserve the right to apply different “responses”, and/or no responses at all; that normally having different standards, and also having your cake, and wanting to eat it.”

    Your words not mine – where did I say there should be no response?

    My immediate concern would not be with the Crimea but stopping a repeat performance in Eastern Ukraine, and as always with what Putin is inflicting on his own subjects. It is revealing that Putin has suddenly discovered federalization when it comes to his neighbour – but when it comes to his own territory he has a sustained programme of taking powers away from the regions.

  615. Resident Dissident

    3 Apr, 2014 - 9:47 pm

    Given the author of your piece said “The reality is that despite the occasional nationalistic posturing of President Putin” might I suggest that he is also a victim of self deception since he clearly has done little to follow recent Russian history.

    As for the NGO point perhaps it should be noted that much of the impact of Putin’s legislation has been felt by agencies involved in charitable and religious work – and not just the “nasty” ones that naively believe that human rights should be universal.

    I’m afraid the who example is just another written from the anywhere is better than the West perspective – and I guess that the writer had precious little knowledge about Russia or Ukraine before the latest episode.

  616. Resident Dissident; “Your words not mine – where did I say there should be no response?”

    So you skip over the fact that you apply different/double standards depending on the perpetrator, and instead quibble about the pointing out that the natural inference that your conditional “time cycle of each case”, could mean no response any more, which would explain why compared to your active commendations of Russia, your commendations, past or present, iro Israel & Turkey seem to be non-existent, unless you can prove this incorrect ?

    “always with what Putin is inflicting on his own subjects”

    ?? Please elaborate as to what you are referring to here.

    “Putin has suddenly discovered federalization when it comes to his neighbour”

    I think you will find that he has been advocating federalization as a solution to the situation in the Ukraine from the very beginning.

    “but when it comes to his own territory”

    Err, yes how a State administrates its own provinces is its own sovereign right.

    “Given the author of your piece said “The reality is that despite the occasional nationalistic posturing of President Putin” might I suggest that he is also a victim of self deception since he clearly has done little to follow recent Russian history”

    Ok, feel free to flesh out this criticism with even a bit of substance.

    “and not just the “nasty” ones that naively believe that human rights should be universal”

    Problem is that the Russians have good cause to be paranoid about US linked NGOs, seeing as they have a habit of being used as fronts for more nefarious agendas.

    “I guess that the writer had precious little knowledge about Russia or Ukraine before the latest episode”

    Well I guess you didn’t bother checking to note that this Russian orientated blog started back in 2008 !; looks like it going to be hard to find anybody with enough knowledge to match the your estimation of the uniqueness of your own knowledge !

  617. Resident Dissident

    4 Apr, 2014 - 8:52 pm

    “So you skip over the fact that you apply different/double standards depending on the perpetrator, and instead quibble about the pointing out that the natural inference that your conditional “time cycle of each case”, could mean no response any more, which would explain why compared to your active commendations of Russia, your commendations, past or present, iro Israel & Turkey seem to be non-existent, unless you can prove this incorrect ?”

    Making more straw men again

    “always with what Putin is inflicting on his own subjects”

    My concerns about the multiple abuses inflicted by Putin on the ordinary Russian people by Putin and his oligarch friends

    “I think you will find that he has been advocating federalization as a solution to the situation in the Ukraine from the very beginning.”

    But most definitely not when it comes to Russia – hence the gross hypocrisy

    “Err, yes how a State administrates its own provinces is its own sovereign right.”

    Strange you don’t apply this principle to the Ukraine – and I have never noticed a lack of willingness on your part with regard to other countries you dislike. Also sovereign rights do not override human rights or treaty obligations. And I also have several close family members who are Russian nationals.

    “Ok, feel free to flesh out this criticism with even a bit of substance.”

    I have posted regularly on what is happening in Russia – you chose to ignore what I have to say

    “and not just the “nasty” ones that naively believe that human rights should be universal”

    “Problem is that the Russians have good cause to be paranoid about US linked NGOs, seeing as they have a habit of being used as fronts for more nefarious agendas.”

    But that is not an excuse to extend the treatment to all NGOs as I have pointed out – many of those targeted have no links to the US or political causes.

    “Well I guess you didn’t bother checking to note that this Russian orientated blog started back in 2008 !; looks like it going to be hard to find anybody with enough knowledge to match the your estimation of the uniqueness of your own knowledge !”

    the comment was clearly directed at the article on spiked on-line not the second blog that you linked to – please don’t be so disingenuous

    PS When are you going to write something of substance on Russia rather than just parroting the party line and engaging in disruptive trolling against those who don’t share your view.

  618. Paul Barbara

    5 Apr, 2014 - 11:39 am

    Personally I am pleased Russia has taken back it’s previous territory. I have far less worries about Russia than I do about the Bankster War Criminal ‘NWO’.
    I read Craig’s article, and skimmed through the comments, but nowhere did I see any apparent realisation of what had induced Putin to act.
    Here is some food for thought:
    ‘Ukraine Protests Carefully Orchestrated: The Role of CANVAS, US-Financed “Color Revolution Training Group” (Global Research)
    ‘Documented: US Coup Plan for Venezuela 2013′ (AXIS OF LOGIC).
    And, would you believe it, the ‘Regime Change’ trainers are a US-funded and organised ‘NGO’ in Serbia!
    This is not ‘Conspiracy Theory’; just check out the above articles.
    And regarding Venezuela again, if you check out the video interview ‘Aaron Russo – Historic Interview’ you will see that Russo says he was befriended by Nick Rockefeller whilst he (Russo) was standing for Governor of Nevada. Rockefeller also tried to recruit Russo into the CFR.
    In 2000, eleven months before 9/11, Rockefeller told Russo that there was going to be ‘an incident, leading to America going into Afghanistan and Iraq, he would see US soldiers hunting through caves for Arabs, there would be a ‘War on Terror’, and then we (US) would go after Venezuela’. In 2002, there was a US-planned and backed coup attempt.
    And re the ‘Arab Spring’, 4* General (ret) Wesley Clark is on video stating that in 2001, shortly after the 9/11 attacks, he was told by a 3* serving General that the US was going to ‘overthrow 7 governments in 5 years – Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran’ (obviously there has been some slippage in the timeline!).
    Thanks to Russia, the US hasn’t effected ‘Regime Change’ in Syria, even with their ‘False Flag’ Chemical Weapons deployment.
    They are now trying to get Turkey to pull a ‘False Flag’ attack on the Tomb of Suleyman Shah; there’s quite a bit about it on the web, because someone leaked the plans, so it may have to be aborted. But interestingly, ‘Stop the War’ have an article on it on their website: ‘Is a key Nato member plotting a fake terrorist attack to justify war on Syria?’.
    Encouraging that they are belatedly coming to the realisation that there are such events as ‘False Flag’ attacks.

  619. Paul Barbara

    5 Apr, 2014 - 11:45 am

    Personally I am pleased Russia has taken back it’s previous territory. I have far less worries about Russia than I do about the Bankster War Criminal ‘NWO’.
    I read Craig’s article, and skimmed through the comments, but nowhere did I see any apparent realisation of what had induced Putin to act.
    Here is some food for thought:
    ‘Ukraine Protests Carefully Orchestrated: The Role of CANVAS, US-Financed “Color Revolution Training Group” (Global Research)
    ‘Documented: US Coup Plan for Venezuela 2013′ (AXIS OF LOGIC).
    And, would you believe it, the ‘Regime Change’ trainers are a US-funded and organised ‘NGO’ in Serbia!
    This is not ‘Conspiracy Theory’; just check out the above articles.
    And regarding Venezuela again, if you check out the video interview ‘Aaron Russo – Historic Interview’ you will see that Russo says he was befriended by Nick Rockefeller whilst he (Russo) was standing for Governor of Nevada. Rockefeller also tried to recruit Russo into the CFR.
    In 2000, eleven months before 9/11, Rockefeller told Russo that there was going to be ‘an incident, leading to America going into Afghanistan and Iraq, he would see US soldiers hunting through caves for Arabs, there would be a ‘War on Terror’, and then we (US) would go after Venezuela’. In 2002, there was a US-planned and backed coup attempt.
    And re the ‘Arab Spring’, 4* General (ret) Wesley Clark is on video stating that in 2001, shortly after the 9/11 attacks, he was told by a 3* serving General that the US was going to ‘overthrow 7 governments in 5 years – Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran’ (obviously there has been some slippage in the timeline!).
    Thanks to Russia, the US hasn’t effected ‘Regime Change’ in Syria, even with their ‘False Flag’ Chemical Weapons deployment.
    They are now trying to get Turkey to pull a ‘False Flag’ attack on the Tomb of Suleyman Shah; there’s quite a bit about it on the web, because someone leaked the plans, so it may have to be aborted. But interestingly, ‘Stop the War’ have an article on it on their website: ‘Is a key Nato member plotting a fake terrorist attack to justify war on Syria?’.
    Encouraging that they are belatedly coming to the realisation that there are such events as ‘False Flag’ attacks.

  620. In response to Resident Dissident on the Andy Myles thread redirected by Clark here.

    RD, I read your Guardian link which is more than you appear to do with those I provide. Here is a quote from it.

    “Presidential elections will be held on 25 May. Yanukovych suggested that these could scarcely be considered legitimate because his eviction from office was unconstitutional.”

    How does “eviction from office” equate with your assumption:

    “The government of Ukraine is not illegal – the previous President fled the country, after on his own admission inviting Russian troops into the Crimea, and a new President was appointed by the Ukrainian Parliament.”?

  621. Paul Barbara

    5 Apr, 2014 - 11:59 am

    Whoops! Sorry, I double-posted.

  622. Paul Barbara 5 Apr, 2014 – 11:45 am

    Thanks for raising the Aaron Russo video. All those who consider us conspiracy theorists shy away from this because, firstly Russo was Jewish, and secondly there is no argument that Nick Rockefeller knew about this false flag event beforehand. They choose not to debate it and hope it will go away. “Conspiracy theorists” is a catch-all term for those who put forward an alternative to government propaganda over false-flag events. Here is an extract from the video again. Followed by one from General Wesley Clark. 9/11 was a false flag event. The day before it happened Donald Rumsfeld talked about billions of dollars that could not be accounted for in defence expenditure. All details of that were lost in the 9/11 detonations.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZjKKUEHTKk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTdx1nPu3k

  623. Paul Barbara

    5 Apr, 2014 - 2:31 pm

    I’m pretty sure no one on this Forum would condemn Russo just because he’s Jewish; there are good and bad in all races.
    Anyone who takes the hour to watch that interview will plainly see the honesty and goodness in Aaron Russo. If he had taken what Rockefeller offered him, he would have been a ‘Made Man’; one of the elite scumbags that contrive to rule us and ride roughshod over the law, domestic and international.
    Russo did not know what Rockefeller was talking about in 2000, but on holiday in Hawaii on 9/11, he saw the ‘events’ on TV, and immediately realised what had happened. He started to speak out, and ‘contracted’ cancer. He died in 2007; RIP to a great man, who followed his conscience rather than sink to the level of the Banksters, Fraudsters and War Criminals.

  624. Paul Barbara, I think you misunderstand. I was not criticising Russo, nor Jews, who as you rightly say have many good upstanding people like Aaron Russo in their communities. My criticism was against people who troll and sock-puppet on this blog but never address videos like the two I linked at 12.19 pm. Aaron Russo is one of the people for whom, like yourself, I have the highest respect.

    But the trolls will steer well clear of commenting on this and just refer to people like you and me as “conspiracy theorists”.

  625. John Goss 5 Apr, 2014 – 12:19 pm

    “9/11 was a false flag event. The day before it happened Donald Rumsfeld talked about billions of dollars that could not be accounted for in defence expenditure. All details of that were lost in the 9/11 detonations.”

    Just to clarify, yes billions went missing, 2,300 of them, ie $2.3 trillion

    Freakonomics: “If you had a stack of thousand-dollar bills in your hand only 4 inches high, you’d be a millionaire. A trillion dollars would be a stack of thousand-dollar bills 67 miles high.”

  626. Paul Barbara

    5 Apr, 2014 - 6:44 pm

    @ John Goss: No sweat; I most assuredly did not misunderstand you; I was re-inforceing your reply, and giving it a bump!
    I’m sure we are not worried about being mis-classified as ‘Conspiracy Theorists’; I suppose they would call the ‘Gulf of Tonkin’ or the murderous Israeli attack upon the USS Liberty ‘Conspiracy Theories’, never mind ‘Operation Northwoods’! Hmmmm, Lavon Affair?

  627. Thanks for the bump Paul Barbara. And thanks for the clarification A Node regarding the trillions! I wasn’t sure relying on memory which is not as good as it once was.

  628. Resident Dissident; “Making more straw men again”

    No straw men at all; you have self-confessed to having double standards; & I offered you a chance to prove that you have previously condemned Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights or Turkey’s invasion & occupation of the northern Cyprus, in any way at all, nevermind the frenzy way you are condemning Russia over the Crimea, and you have pointedly failed to do so.

    “My concerns about the multiple abuses inflicted by Putin on the ordinary Russian people by Putin and his oligarch friends”

    Does your touching concern for “the ordinary Russian people”, mean that you also advocate some “humanitarian bombing”, as this seems to be the outcome iro your concern for the ordinary Syrian people.

    “But most definitely not when it comes to Russia – hence the gross hypocrisy”

    ??!!

    “Strange you don’t apply this principle to the Ukraine”

    ?? Perhaps you have answer yourself with “Also sovereign rights do not override human rights or treaty obligations”

    “I have posted regularly on what is happening in Russia – you chose to ignore what I have to say”

    No, I have challenged it mostly, like I’m doing now.

    “But that is not an excuse to extend the treatment to all NGOs as I have pointed out – many of those targeted have no links to the US or political causes”

    Ok, examples please.

    “the comment was clearly directed at the article on spiked on-line not the second blog that you linked to”

    I indeed stand corrected, and acknowledge that I thought the quote come from the latest article I linked to; anyhow the guy you labelled as having “precious little knowledge about Russia”, not only has written many books around the themes of his Political Sociology speciality, but also has his own Site with an extensive list of published articles, some with quite interesting subject headings;

    http://www.frankfuredi.com/about/article/186

    “When are you going to write something of substance on Russia rather than just parroting the party line and engaging in disruptive trolling against those who don’t share your view”

    The day I resort to sock-puppeting is the day you had claim I engage in trolling, until then, stop being the deceiving hypocrite.

  629. Paul Barbara

    8 Apr, 2014 - 11:47 pm

    The West’s threatened financial sanctions have really got poor Putin tearing his hair out. Or maybe not, perhaps?
    ‘Russia Announces Decoupling Trade From Dollar’:
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38165.htm

    Even more reason for the UK to switch to the good ‘ole
    ‘Bradbury Pound’! No wonder so many Banksters are dying in one way or another – suicides, ‘suicidings’, and murder.
    Anyone want to venture some start-up capital for a wheelbarrow factory? Maybe I should try Alan Sugar.

  630. American mercenary caught in Kharkov;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9mSvoN2OWA

  631. From the horse’s mouth: Putin considers the Ukrainians and the Russians to be one people, inseparable etc. This rings a bell, I think there was another chap with similar ideas in the 1930s (about the German people). Putin forgot to ask the Ukrainians if they agree. According to him, Western Ukrainians have an inferiority complex (due to not having enjoyed 300 years of Moscow rule). But it is strange, I am a Southern Ukrainian with family from the South and East of Ukraine and yet I seem to have the same faulty notions about Ukrainians being emphatically not the same as Russians. I share these faulty notions with my friends from Odessa.

    One-dimensional mad lefties take note (only joking, I have no illusions about your cognitive abilities).

    The reference in Ukrainian is more comprehensive than the only English language one I have turned up (too early, probably). Google translate is barely comprehensible.
    http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/04/17/7022790/
    http://www.novinite.com/articles/159915/Putin+Considers+Ukrainians,+Russians+%27Same+People%27

  632. Despite Evgueni’s predictable resort to Godwin’s Law, the most important part of the Putin Q&A session, was the following;

    Q: MARIA SITTEL: More from anxious pensioners. “If the West refuses to purchase gas from Russia, how will that affect people’s well-being, especially that of pensioners?” – Lyudmila Budarina, Tambov Region.

    A: VLADIMIR PUTIN: I have to say that oil and gas revenues make up a large part of the Russian budget revenue. This is a serious component for us in addressing economic development, budget funding for our development programmes and, of course, and meeting of our social commitments to our citizens.

    I’ll tell you what. I am not sure that I’ll get the figures right, but, if my memory serves me correctly, the bulk of oil and gas revenue comes not from gas but from oil. In terms of the dollar equivalent, our oil revenues last year amounted to $191-194 billion and gas revenues to about $28 billion. See the difference? 191 from oil and 28 from gas.

    Oil is sold on world markets. Is there any way to do us harm? One may try. But what would be the result for those who would attempt to do it? First of all, how would this be done? Of all the countries in the world, only Saudi Arabia has the real potential to increase production and thus bring down world prices. Saudi Arabia’s budget assumes a price of $85-$90 per thousand cubic metres.

    Q: KIRILL KLEYMENOV: President Obama has already visited them.

    A: VLADIMIR PUTIN: I’m sorry, I meant oil, not gas. The budget assumes a price of $85-$90 per barrel, and our budget, I think, $90. So, if one goes below $85, Saudi Arabia will be on the losing end and have problems. For us a drop from $90 to $85 is not critical. That is first.

    Second, we are on very good terms with Saudi Arabia. We may, for example, differ in terms of our views on Syria, but we practically have identical positions on the development of the situation in Egypt. There are many other things where we see eye-to-eye.

    I have great respect for the custodian of the two Muslim shrines, the King of Saudi Arabia. He is a very clever and balanced man. I don’t think that our Saudi friends would make any abrupt changes to harm themselves and the Russian economy.

    Furthermore, they are members of OPEC, where we have many supporters. It is not that they have sympathy for us, but that they have their own economic interests and sharply reducing production – which can only be done in a manner agreed upon within OPEC – is a fairly complicated business.

    Finally, in the United States, which is developing shale gas and shale oil production, production costs are very high. These are expensive projects. If world prices tumble, these projects may turn out to be unprofitable, loss-making and the nascent industry may simply die.
    And one last point. Oil is priced and traded in the world in dollars. If prices fall, demand for dollars will plummet and the dollar will start losing its significance as a world currency. There are very many factors involved. The wish to bite us is there, but the opportunities are limited. That said, some damage can be caused.

    Now about gas. We sell gas by pipeline (most of our sales are by pipeline) mainly to the European countries that depend on Russian supplies to cover about 30-35, 34 percent of their needs. Can they stop buying Russian gas altogether? I don’t think that this is possible.

    Some of our neighbours, very good neighbours with which we have very sound relations, such as, for example, Finland…Finland gets 90 percent of its gas from Russia. Some countries that used to be called People’s Democracies in Eastern Europe depend on Russian gas if not for 90 percent, then for 60, 50 or 70 percent of their needs.

    Can supplies be stopped altogether? I think that this is totally unrealistic. But one can do this at one’s own cost, by hurting oneself. However, I cannot imagine such a situation. Therefore, of course, everyone is keen on diversifying their sources of supplies. Europe is talking about greater independence from Russia as a supplier, and similarly we are beginning to talk and act to become less dependent on our consumers.

    However, so far, there is a measure of balance between consumers and suppliers. The only problem is transit countries. And the most dangerous part, of course, is transit via Ukraine with which we have tremendous difficulties in agreeing on energy problems. But I hope that we will be able to bring things back to normal, considering the contracts that have been signed and are functioning.

  633. Ruben Rosenthal

    18 Apr, 2014 - 6:02 pm

    Mr. Murray
    Could please elaborate your comment that: “…..Russia has always maintained the NATO Kosovo intervention was illegal(and still refuses to recognize Kosovo). In fact of course Russia was right over Kosovo, and thus is wrong over Crimea.”

    Self determination was the common pledge of both albanian kosovars and russian crimeans. However there was an urge then for some sort of external interventian in Kosovo due to widespread reports of oppression and killings of the ethnic albanians. Were there other quick options to take then to avoid the continuation of massacres, like we or not NATO intervention? Of course there has been the usual western hipocrisy as just few years earlier in 1994, outside Europe, Hutus began slaughtering the Tutsis in Rwanda, the West did nothing about it, and hundreds of thousands Tutsis died.

  634. Ruben Rosenthal; “However there was an urge then for some sort of external interventian in Kosovo due to widespread reports of oppression and killings of the ethnic albanians. Were there other quick options to take then to avoid the continuation of massacres, like we or not NATO intervention?”

    I think you will find that it was really only after the NATO bombs starting falling, that the massacres started to happen, here’s an article that give details of two highly recommended books, that you give you an accurate understanding of what happened iro this conflict;

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/04/a-15-year-murder-spree/

  635. Resident Dissident

    19 Apr, 2014 - 10:10 pm

    “I think you will find that it was really only after the NATO bombs starting falling, that the massacres started to happen,”

    Garbage – please stop your feeble attempts at rewriting history

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Kosovo_War

    Nato’s bombings started on 24 March 1999

  636. Resident Dissident; “Garbage – please stop your feeble attempts at rewriting history”

    You would very much like it to be “garbage” & “rewriting history”, but it’s the “official narrative” of the illegal NATO attack on Serbia, that you & your fellow cruise-missile “Humanitarians” believe in, as if it was the gospel truth , that is the real garbage & an obscene rewriting of history.

    Exactly like the situation in Syria today, Western backed, supplied, and even transported, Islamic terrorists, joined in a civil war that had been already been instigated by the West, by encouraging the secession, & premature recognition, of Slovenia and Croatia; both Croats & Bosnian Muslims had launched repeated terrorist attacks, including massacres long before even your Wiki account even starts, for example September, 1991, when some 120 Serbs in the town of Gospic were abducted and massacred, or the 1995 “Operation Storm” in which hundreds of Serb civilians were killed; for sure the MSM made sure that the name Arkan is now well known, how many people know about the names Ceku, or Nasir Oric ?

    I did not state that no massacres occurred before the NATO attacked, because a civil war had already stated, but my point was that the NATO made an already bad situation, infinitely worse, as this is what lead directly firstly to bitter Serb reprisals, then to massive ethnic cleansing by all sides. The truth of this is documented in various studies, as in the two books reference in my previous link; the narrative that the NATO attack was right & just is based on the biased rewriting of history that cast the Serbs as Nazis, and the other sides as victims, whereas non-partisan people who were there & witnessed the facts that our MSM ignored or distorted, tell us the polar opposite, ie the truth;

    http://www.serendipity.li/the_saker/empires_war_against_the_serbian_nation.htm

    (Bonus link for your enlightenment; http://monthlyreview.org/commentary/diana-johnstone-on-the-balkan-wars)

  637. Ruben Rosenthal

    23 Apr, 2014 - 1:00 am

    Macky: Thanks for the literature you recommended.

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