The Wrong Referendum, The Wrong Saviour

by craig on March 16, 2014 6:43 am in Uncategorized

I am not opposed to self determination for the people of Crimea; I am opposed to this referendum.  Nobody can seriously argue there has been a chance for a campaign in which different viewpoints can be freely argued, with some equality of media access and freedom from fear and intimidation.

Hitler invaded Austria on 12 March 1938.  The Anschluss was confirmed in a plebiscite on 10 April, just 28 days later, by a majority of 99.7%.  Putin has done it in less than half of the time, and I have no doubt will produce a similar result in the vote.  The point is not whether or not the vote reflects the will of the people – the point is whether the will of the people has been affected by military demonstration, fear, hysterically induced national psychosis and above all an absence of space for debate or alternative viewpoints.

There is no reasonable claim that Putin’s swift plebiscite is necessary because of an imminent threat of violence against Russians in Crimea.  There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.  Putin has proved that force majeure is powerful in international politics, and there is every reason to believe that he could have finessed international acceptance of such a referendum in due course.  Germany, in particular, is much more interested in its own energy supplies than in the rights of Ukraine.  In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest.  It is very likely such a genuine referendum would have gone in Russia’s favour.  But the disadvantages of open debate about the merits and demerits of Putin’s Russia, and his own self-image as the man of military prowess, led Putin to take the more violent course.

The vote yesterday in the Security Council should give every Putinista pause.  Not even China voted with Russia.  The Africans and South Americans voted solidly against.  That is not because they are prisoners or puppets of the United States – they are not.  Neither did they take the easy road of abstention.  The truth is that what Putin is doing in Crimea is outrageous.

What happens now is going to be interesting.  I greatly fear that Putin is looking to stir up as much disorder in Ukraine’s Eastern provinces as possible, perhaps with the aim of promoting civil war in which Russia can covertly intervene, rather than open invasion, but I do not put the latter past him.  Against that, I am quite sure Russia did not expect the extreme diplomatic isolation, in fact humiliation, it suffered at the UN yesterday.  I am hopeful Russia may step back from the brink.

The EU I expect to do nothing.  Sanctions will target a few individuals who are not too close to Putin and don’t keep too many of their interests in the West.  I don’t think Alisher Usmanov and Roman Abramovic need lose too much sleep, that Harrods need worry or that we will see any flats seized at One Hyde Park.  (It is among my dearest wishes one day to see One Hyde Park given out for council housing.)  Neither do I expect to see the United States do anything effective; its levers are limited.  I doubt we have seen the last of Mr Putin’s adventurism.

Human society is not perfectible, which does not mean we should not try.  I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality.  For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds.  Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation.  On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.

But every single one of those things is true of Putin’s Russia, and in fact it is much worse.  Wealth inequality is even more extreme.  Toleration of dissent and of different lifestyles even less evident, the space for debate even more constricted, the contempt for international law still more pronounced.  Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran. The consequence can be an accidental good, in that Putin has thwarted western military plans. But that is not in any sense from a desire for public good, and if Putin can himself get away with military force he does.  His conflicts of interest  with the west have deluded a surprising number of people here into believing that Putin in some ways represents an ideological alternative.  He does not.  He represents a capitalism still more raw, an oligarchy still more corrupt, a wealth gap still greater and growing still quicker, a debate still more circumscribed.  It speaks to the extreme political failure of the western political system, and the degree of the alienation of which I spoke, that so many strive to see something beautiful in the ugly features of Putinism.

 

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371 Comments

  1. BrianFujisan

    16 Mar, 2014 - 7:12 am

    FFs Craig…

    Putin aint posting Snuff movie’s online,….

    And that’s the Mild stuff…BBW

  2. BrianFujisan

    16 Mar, 2014 - 7:42 am

    Mild stuff Meaning The Horrors of Syria…. Videos @ ALL OVER THE FKN place

  3. Sofia Kibo Noh

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:00 am

    “There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.

    WHF Craig! Absolutely no reason? Aside, that is, from the illegal, coup installed thugs now ruling in Kiev, their puppet masters and of course Nuland’s $5 billion.

    Whether local militia, Russian special forces or a bit of both are responsible, isn’t it clear that what has happened in Crimea so far is the successful containment of the violent, ultra-right forces unleashed with our tax dollars and euros in Ukraine. Maybe we should deal with that issue before we criticise the Crimean referendum . It may not be perfect but it seems to be a perfectly rational and, so far peaceful, response to the latest episode of european fascism.

    As for the suggestion that while western capitalism might be bad, Putin’s version is worse. In this case, where is the evidence? Where are the bodies, the thousands of bomb-sites, the DU dust, etc?

    Isn’t the principle of self-determination the bottom line here?

    It may be hasty and imperfect, but today’s referendum “There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.

    WHF! Absolutely no reason? Aside, that is, from the illegal, coup installed thugs now ruling in Kiev, their puppet masters and of course Nuland’s $5 billion.

    Whether local militia or Russian special forces are responsible, isn’t it clear that what has happened in Crimea so far is a successful containment of violent, ultra-right forces unleashed with our tax dollars and euros in Ukraine. Maybe we should deal with that issue before we criticise the Crimean referendum . It may not be perfect but it seems to be a perfectly rational and, so far peaceful, response to the latest episode of european fascism.

    As for the suggestion that while western capitalism might be bad, Putin’s version is worse. In this case, where is the evidence? Where are the bodies, the thousands of bomb-sites, the DU dust, etc?

    Isn’t the principle of self-determination the relevant here?

    If you were living in Crimea would you choose to be governed from Kiev by Svoboda​ userpers? In what circumstances could the Kiev government have more legitimacy than a post referendum one in Crimea?

    The underlying issue in seems to have been forgotten in the haze of anti-Russian indignation. That is, the Westernh habit of interference and regime-change in sovereign states. Venezuela next. If you were living in Crimea would you choose to be governed by Svoboda?

  4. Sofia Kibo Noh

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:05 am

    Oops! Sorry for doubling up there. Mod, please delete half!

  5. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:14 am

    “Whether local militia, Russian special forces or a bit of both are responsible, isn’t it clear that what has happened in Crimea”

    Only to the blind I’m afraid.

    What about the ultra right forces unleased on the Russian people – aka KGB/nomenklatura/Putinistas – but at least they are not using anyone’s tax dollars having awarded themselves a maximum 13% tax rate.

  6. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:19 am

    “The underlying issue in seems to have been forgotten in the haze of anti-Russian indignation. That is, the Westernh habit of interference and regime-change in sovereign states.”

    And what about the Russian habit of interference and regime-change in sovereign states – that you wilfully ignore (do you know anything about the recent history of Ukraine??). Or we could also talk about the Chinese habit as well?

  7. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:32 am

    Spot on, Craig, I’d agree with 95% of what you say.

    However, as you’ll have noticed already, the excellence of your post will not be sufficient to convince the usual suspects. The counter arguments put up to posts of this nature would never cease to amaze me were it not clear that the starting point of those counter arguments is one of anti-Westernism come what may. Why that should be so is , I regret to have to say, probably a matter for psychiatrists.

    Again: congratulations.

  8. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:33 am

    https://twitter.com/chessninja/status/444957585733455873/photo/1

    From yesterday’s “spontaneous” pro Putin demonstration – nice to see how the demonstrators were all issued with matching uniforms and organised themselves in nice orderly ranks and the USSR 2.0 was such a nice touch. I’m sure the fellow travellers and useful idiots will agree.

  9. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:36 am

    Strangely enough no comment on this from our resident Putinistas, who continue to enjoy the freedom of speech that they their hero is prepared to deny to others.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/13/us-russia-internet-idUSBREA2C21L20140313

  10. Michael Robinson

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:47 am

    “Human society is not perfectible, which does not mean we should not try. I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality. ”

    I recommend to you the argument of Thomas Piketty, which is, in short, that the “high level of happiness…and an encouraging level of equality” were not the result of western democracy, but were rather the accidental consequence of massive capital destruction in the decades before 1945, and of the political space thereby opened up for massive capital redistribution in the decades after.

    http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/52384/1/MPRA_paper_52384.pdf
    http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2013Cologne.pdf

    “For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds.”

    It is Piketty’s argument (and he has the data to support it), that everything you describe here is merely “reversion to the mean” for western democracy, not a deviation from the norm.

  11. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:51 am

    Putin annexation Part 2 appears to have already started

    http://nypost.com/2014/03/15/russian-forces-move-into-ukraine-on-the-eve-of-referendum/

    Perhaps the Putinistas might wish to get their justification in early – and while doing so perhaps they could let us know what they consider to be the acceptable limits of Putin’s expansionism – to the Polish border, to the German border, to the former West German border, to the Baltic coast, to Chisinau, to Tashkent???

  12. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:53 am

    And what is Michael Robinson’s argument for “reversion to the mean” when it comes to Russia?

  13. Michael Robinson

    16 Mar, 2014 - 8:55 am

    “It is among my dearest wishes one day to see One Hyde Park given out for council housing.”

    On the other hand, it’s also possible the disasters of the last twenty years are the predictable consequence of a compulsive, self-defeating message indiscipline afflicting the entire political left.

    Hard to say, really.

  14. Michael Robinson

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:03 am

    @Resident Dissident:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=861DJLR4Cek

    Meditate on the logos of the corporate sponsors until you get to the 4:40 mark, where the sponsor’s agenda is briefly aired.

    Capital accumulation is easiest when the capital is acquired cheaply, and there is no cheaper capital than distressed capital.

  15. The simple fact remains that Putin is currently the only block on Western ambition.

    Since Western ambition is now at nightmarishly Strangelove levels under American neocons, this has to be a positive thing for humanity as a whole.

    The West has thrown international law out the window and we now live in a world of trial by combat and cunning. The more observant Westerners will have noticed that increasingly we are forced to live in this manner in our own individual states.

    The only hope then is that Putin hold the fort until the other BRICS and non-alligned get up to speed, the Europeans unwind, stress the dollar, put the criminals on trial and start over.

    Sorted!

  16. One sycophantic comment-maker has been raiding the apple-barrel to set himself up as teacher’s pet again, having suffered some disgrace by having comments binned through not having done his homework. It must be pretty galling for Craig to have attracted such a bedmate.

    Under normal circumstances I would agree myself with the blog-post, although I do not think the comparison with Hitler’s invasion of Austria is valid because of the extraordinary circumstances in the Ukraine. To make the blog-post reasonable it is necessary to go back to primary causes of the referendum, that is, a load of thugs (this is not a popular rising but a western-funded coup) have taken over the legitimate government of the Ukraine. Once they are removed it is right and proper to argue the timescale of a referendum. But first it needs to be argued whether these gangsters, Nazis in fact, should be in power.

    There have been systematic lies from the start from our media, and the population of Crimea might well want to become part of Russia because that might prevent a similar western-funded coup in the Crimea. This is the truth. This is what should be argued in favour, or against, because this is what started it all. Even this morning the BBC had a Ukrainian liar who tried to tell the viewing public that there had been a Russian invasion of Crimea. The only trouble is the viewing public will believe it. In this video Nuland (Fuck the EU) is talking to her friends. Argue this. It’s the place to start.

    http://scgnews.com/the-ukraine-crisis-what-youre-not-being-told

  17. Given that no one can seriously argue that there has been anything other than a coup in Kiev the referendum is only to be expected. Of course Tartars are not happy and the West should keep an eye on their situation, but the real concerns are not the referendum but 1) who are those now in control in Kiev and how they got there and 2) whether Russia will try to extend its reach beyond Crimea over the east of Ukraine. There must be a risk of that and danger in it. Crimea itself is more or less inevitable.

  18. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:28 am

    Michael Robinson

    You of course didn’t answer my question – but fortunately the following comment did highlight something of what has happened in Russia:

    “Capital accumulation is easiest when the capital is acquired cheaply, and there is no cheaper capital than distressed capital.”

    Because of course this is exactly what Putin and his fellow oligarchs have done with Russian capital – which to a large extent they have then stolen from their foreign countrymen and sent abroad, placing it into “investments” such as One Hyde Park. Gazprom, and those who benefit from its cashflow, of course has no interest whatsoever in the Ukraine.

  19. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:31 am

    Herbie

    The one problem with your love in with Putin is that you will find the cure even worse than the disease.

  20. Some other perspectives:

    Charles Crawford –
    Ukraine, Russia and Europe
    http://charlescrawford.biz/N0RXWL854071

    It predates the Crimea moves.

    and today on RT, Neil Clark -

    http://rt.com/op-edge/crimea-artificially-created-crisis-838/

    ~~

    Nothing substantial from our man in Kiev, Simon Smith.
    http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/simonsmith/

    PS Has he got an amazing dancing bear? Anyone remember it?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8zI5xjwKYw

  21. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:43 am

    “To make the blog-post reasonable it is necessary to go back to primary causes of the referendum, that is, a load of thugs (this is not a popular rising but a western-funded coup) have taken over the legitimate government of the Ukraine.”

    I think I will place rather more credence on this matter on the views of Timothy Snyder who knows rather more of the history of this part of the world and actually visited Kyiv than a long standing apologist for all things Putin who freely throws the fascist insult at western governments and their politicians.

    “Even this morning the BBC had a Ukrainian liar who tried to tell the viewing public that there had been a Russian invasion of Crimea.”

    So where did all those well trained and equipped troops without insignia arrive from? However, much you try you will never get promoted to fellow traveller Gospodin Goss.

  22. Resident Dissident, argue against the video (did you watch it?) not what you consider my politics to be.

  23. Michael Robinson

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:47 am

    @Resident Dissident

    “Because of course this is exactly what Putin and his fellow oligarchs have done”

    Well, that’s exactly the argument in a nutshell. All the claims about democratic will and national aspiration and yadda yadda are merely sideshows and distractions to the realpolitik question of who ends up with the loot. The Ukrainian people are screwed either way.

    Personally, I agree with Mr. Murray on this point: Putin’s actions in Crimea are worse than a crime, they’re a blunder. All evidence is that he could have achieved everything he has there so far, and more, through widely-recognised proper procedures and with international legitimacy, but he appears to lack the self-discipline and self-awareness to play that game.

  24. Res Diss

    You’re quite simply a victim of neocon propaganda, as your many posts on this and other matters routinely show.

    It’s not about Putin winning. It’s about him blocking the fascist takeover until the rest of the world can combine and overturn their current hegemony.

    You’re wrong about the oligarchs as well, of course. He prosecuted many of those who benefitted from the neocon rape of Russia under a Yeltin drunk on neocon largesse, whilst others of them fled to the West.

    There’s a kinda pattern there.

    And, unsurprisingly you’re wrong about One Hyde Park, as this investigation shows:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/society/2013/04/mysterious-residents-one-hyde-park-london#

  25. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:50 am

    From the RT fellow traveller that Mary linked to:

    “But it was an artificially-created “crisis” as what was going on in Kosovo was a low-level conflict between Yugoslav forces and Kosovan Liberation Army fighters backed by the West.”

    What f***ing planet do these people live on. They’ll be repeating the line that the Holodomor was down to crop failures and poor administration next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Kosovo_War

  26. It is so easy for those who would divert to take a sentence or two out of context as Resident Dissident has done at 9.43 p.m. and divert from the message of the comment – which is the video at the end. This is straight out of the trolls’ handbook, though of course I am not saying the Resident Dissident is a troll. I have known him make some good arguments. That comment focusing on me and not the video is not one of his best efforts.

  27. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:53 am

    “He prosecuted many of those who benefitted from the neocon rape of Russia under a Yeltin drunk on neocon largesse, whilst others of them fled to the West.”

    He prosecuted those who disagreed with him – disputes between mafia bosses are nothing new. The rape of Russia by his pet oligarchs has continued – the fact that you are in denial makes it clear that it is you who is the victim of propaganda not myself.

  28. I would go along with what you are saying, Craig, if the western media were reporting impartially. However, the reporting I saw on the BBC news yesterday wasn’t exactly balanced. It reminded me of Hitler’s statement regarding the matter of telling lies, and what people would believe… Putin’s Russia may not be everyone’s (anyone’s…) ideal of democracy either, but in this case it is the west that is supporting fascism, and inadvertently bringing all of the powers of their media to support that fascism. Yes, Putin could have just stood by meekly and said “people will see through the fascists”, but history tells us it doesn’t work like that, and journalists these days don’t seem to have a sense of history (or irony!)

    My understanding of the UN resolution is that it was deliberately worded to isolate Russia, and no self-effacing country could vote against. I’m surprised if only China abstained. I’ve never before understood how Europe could have allowed fascism to rise in the 1930s, but of course I now realise that the media were all powerful then as now, and they facilitated Hitler’s work. Churchill must have been fuming through all of this, as he could see what was happening with the growth of fascism – what about Guernica, for example – but he was consistently ignored… until it was getting too late and Hitler went into Austria. Even then “Peace in our time” was the mantra after Munich. Willheim Reich wrote an excellent book about this before Hitler even came to power. I know all this from when I was quite young because my great grandfather’s encyclopedias were passed down to me, and when I had to write an essays about Hitler, Mussolini, etc. I was very surprised at what I read… From then on I realised the importance of reading multiple independent sources.

    An alternative view… it is important to see both sides to get to the truth:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQW_Miknqt0

  29. 9.43 a.m. not p.m. What day is it?

  30. RD 9.43am

    ‘Mr Snyder is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.’

    That says it all. We know where he’s coming from.

    ‘Timothy D. Snyder (born August 18, 1969)[2] is an American historian. He is a Professor of History at Yale University, specializing in the history of Central and Eastern Europe, and the Holocaust. For the academic year 2013–2014, he has been the holder of the Philippe Roman Chair of International History at the London School of Economics and Political Science [3] He is also affiliated with the Institut für die Wissenschaften vom Menschen in Vienna[4] and the College of Europe in Natolin, Poland. Mr. Snyder is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.’

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_D._Snyder

    If Russia swallows Ukraine, the European system is finished.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/05/opinion/russia-ukraine-austria/

    What tommyrot. He probably favours this dangerous US/EU tie up, the TTIP.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership

  31. If Russia had not thwarted US ambitions in Syria, we would have seen a repeat of Libya in Syria. Instead Assad has been able to multiply his violations against human rights and dignity by many times, sheltering under Russia’s military and diplomatic umbrella.

    US and its AlQaida, whose leader Zawahiri visited the US last year, would have imposed a US Muslim Brotherhood despot like Muhammad Mursi, who would have implemented the US plan to control Islam through NSA spying and torture, taming the custodians of the Arabic language from speaking by the light of the holy Qur’an.

    I can see some justification in Putin using military pressure in Ukraine, because if the US gets its ambition, as it did in Egypt, military force has to be used anyway to reverse the Satanic evil of US-created Islamic-thought-crime, which like the star chamber of the Roman Catholic Inquisition, uses the privacy of your own home to indict you with crimes against the state.

    Nobody is deceived that Putin, former KGB leader, or his military might is an ideologically good thing. Nor have they been since the 1920′s about Soviet-style Communism. But anybody who thinks that USUKIS is a force for good in this world after the relevations of Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden or Craig Murray even, is also living in la-la-la-la land.

  32. Res Diss

    If you’d provide some evidence for your allegations rather than continually parroting neocon propaganda, that’d be great.

    Even something approaching argument would do.

    Thanks

    It might help if you focussed on what the neocon plan for the world actually is, whether you agree with it and what it would mean for all the little people out there.

    I’ll help a bit.

    Do you think, for example, that Russia, China, the other BRICS, even Germany and other European countries might be just a tad concerned at this unfolding plan for a New American Century, with all that it entails?

    Cheers.

  33. http://warisacrime.org/content/germany-says-no-weaponized-drones

    ” i never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest. It is very likely such.”

  34. Neil Saunders

    16 Mar, 2014 - 10:36 am

    Scottish politicians (many with constituencies south of the border and/or cabinet positions) have certainly welcomed (mass) immigration to England. Incidentally, why are open borders – which hugely benefit multinational corporations – perceived as “left wing”, while opposition to them is automatically glossed as “racist”?

  35. Craig seems to have allowed his usually excellent judgment to be clouded by embracing the notion that Moscow is the malefactor in the Ukraine crisis.

    This is not an attempt by the evil Putin to extend the frontiers of Russia. It is plainly a clash between an expanding US/EU/NATO and an autocratic Russia which remembers Napoleon, Hitler and George Bush II, has few friends in this US-dominated world and has been forced onto the defensive again (as it was in Syria).

    Putin may have miscalculated in his response to the bloodshed in Kiev – although that still remains to be seen and almost all the killings have so far taken place there, not in the east. But the question is: who was primarily responsible for the explosion of violence in Ukraine and what can now be done to calm the situation?

    (Few would deny that the Putin regime is abhorrent, although many Russians seem to support it. But so are plenty of other regimes, many of them bought and paid for by “the West”).

    p.s. here’s a short film about the ever-changing frontiers of Ukraine (since 1914) published by Le Figaro (a right-wing French newspaper). Interesting, even if you don’t understand the French commentary.

    http://video.lefigaro.fr/figaro/video/les-frontieres-de-l-ukraine-depuis-1914/3311392305001/

  36. The first measurement to bring about reasonable equality would be destructiontof tax havens and wealth re-distribution, possibly a global monetary reset of which international law could over see.
    Asset values should extend beyond the material and should return to the creator of all things beautiful and godly.

  37. Your apparent inability to see things from the perspective of Russia speaks volumes. Likewise your single-minded refusal to acknowledge the elephant in the room that I have pressed in comments to previous posts.

    Can you not see that your even-handedness about the alleged iniquities of Putin -v- the West are straight out of the Cass Sunstein playbook; they further that ‘elephant-in-the-room’ agenda of the US-UK-NATO axis to perfection. Is that REALLY your intent? or are you simply naive in matters affecting the basically honourable intent of the West?

    You say that in your 20-odd years of FO experience there was never an instance of Germany acting in anything other than its own self-interest. Just what are we expected to infer from that little gem I ask? Are we really expected to believe that somehow the same does NOT apply to the US, UK and Russia? IOW, your anti-German disposition is also of-a-piece with standard FO blatherings; quelle surprise! – for sheer crassness, you could certainly teach the Daily Mail a thing or two.

    Everything you say in this post furthers the agenda of the interests you so plaintively claim to oppose. It is not a question of lauding Putin as a latter-day hero as you so persistently and pejoratively impute to your critics; it is is simply a matter of his being just about the last and only forlorn possibility of halting the globalising US-UK-NATO military/finance-capital juggernaut – the elephant in the room that you so steadfastly refuse to acknowledge. All you SEEM to see is an alleged petty self-aggrandizing tyrant and let’s just ignore his being the most popular politician on the planet (the baby elephant you might say).

    For those with eyes to see – and frankly I suspect that does include you – this is about neither the Ukraine nor the Crimea referendum. It is about yet another ratchet in the ascendancy of that elephant.

    Anyone who seriously tries to equate alleged Russian imperialism with what the US-UK-NATO has been about since the end of WWII (and earlier) is either a willing Cass Sunstein acolyte or terminally naive. So which are you Craig?

  38. Will it be any different to this below if Scotland gets independence ?, I don’t think so.

    “George Osborne, David Cameron, and their London mayor mate, Bo-Jo may welcome this influx of dirty money, as far as I can tell, the Tories are very relaxed about the sources of criminal cash being deposited in the City, but it does no exonerate banks from ensuring the full implementation of the regulations demanding full due diligence on the sources and provenance of the funds being deposited, and the nature and quality of any PEPs seeking client status.”

    http://rowans-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/financial-conduct-authority-fails-yet.html

  39. I am no Putin apologist.

    But.

    Crimea has never sat too comfortably within the independent Ukraine and has agitated for as much autonomy as it could get for the last twenty odd years. I suspect that had today’s referendum been offered at any time since the break-up of the USSR, it would have passed massively in favour of rejoining Russia.

    So the lack of preparatory time is really a non-issue.

    I don;t ike the characterisation in terms of Putin’s adventurism either – he is reacting to events instigated by the EU, Us and Nato. The whole Crimea hoopla serves as a convenient distraction for far darker events happening in Ukraine proper.

    The Maidan crowd are most unhappy with the unelected interim government, seeing it as a replacement of one corrupt oligarch with another set of election-losing, corrupt oligarchs with a smattering of fascists for good measure. This government is going to lock them into an IMF adjustment programme that will pauperise them for decades.

    Now that’s a lack of democracy we should all be screaming about.

  40. By their fruits

    16 Mar, 2014 - 11:23 am

    ye shall know em, (the good prophets that is) !

    1) Preventing NATO bombing of Syria based on a ghastly false flag,an evil gassing of 400 children at Ghouta.

    2) Giving refuge to Snowden, and thereby opening the eyes of the ENTIRE world to the Beast mentioned in the Bible. A service to mankind of the highest level.

    3) Making public the Nuland devils’ conversations – “Fuck EU” and “sniping of both sides”. If CM stays patient Putin may well have saved the best leaks for last.

    4) Being an only brave countervailing force to a Great Satan gone berserk with its limitless dollar printing press – its NSA even knows what colour panties Angela Merkel is wearing on any given day ! Compare with a 1.3 billion population PRC that can only abstain from the action.

    CM needs to be reminded Putin is in power with a 60% majority, a figure most Western leaders can only dream of. And that Yanukovich with all his faults was in power with a higher majority than Cameron, an election overseen by the EU no less. A Putin that is standing upto the devils that overthrew Mossadegh,Morsi,Yanukovich,etc and very soon Maduro, can only be the good guy.

  41. Wikispooks

    The problem is you are ignoring the historical viewpoint. Russia is a massive imperial power. As I have explained ad nauseam the growth of the Russian Empire was precisely contemporary with the growth of the British Empire. For geographical reasons most Russian colonies were contiguous and most British were overseas. But Dagestan, Chechnya and Tatarstan are Russian colonies just as much as India or Ghana ever were British colonies.

    Britain divested most of its empire, (the process still needs to complete) and Russia has not gone nearly so far in the process. The War on Terror gave it backing for the continued suppression of its largely Muslim colonies. For you to say Russia is not an imperial power is ludicrous.

    My argument is that people like you are backing one imperial power against another instead of condemning them both, as I am plainly doing.

  42. By Their Fruits

    Strange, you missed 100,000 dead in Chechnya.

  43. “Strange, you missed 100,000 dead in Chechnya.”

    Lets not forget, millions dead in Iraq.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/13173659825/

  44. Paul Craig Roberts discusses Ukraine and intimately related matters.

    Amongst issues addressed:

    How the neocons have wanted war with Soviet Union/Russia since Reagan’s presidency. PCR was a member of that govt.

    How the neocons believe nuclear war is winnable. “What good are nuclear weapons if you can’t use them”, said William Krystol, founding member of PNAC. How Reagan fired the neocons, and prosecuted some who were sentenced, but later pardonned by Bush Sr.

    How the neocons have re-emerged and determined US foreign policy since the Clinton administration and they’re still there through Bush Jr and Obama.

    How neoconism is a family business.

    How neoconism seeks hegemony over the whole planet.

    How neoconism trashes domestic and international law, discussion, cooperation, preferring to use might and violence instead.

    How neocon political philosophy is no more sophisticated than that of the football hooligan. “All they talk about is war and winning”.

    How Russia, China and Iran stand in the way of the neocon goal of world hegemony.

    How the neocons use money to fund destabilising forces within these countries.

    How the short term payback in looting resources, and also other longer term economic benefits to the US enables the neocons to recruit a broader constituency to their program, which ultimately is to put NATO bases in Ukraine, weakening Russia’s capacity to resist ultimate hegemony.

    How the BRICS etc are hatching plans to abandon the dollar whilst they still have that opportunity.

    His views on a variety of military options and non options, especially for Europeans.

    His views on the economic situation and the delicate balancing act involved in maintaining the dollar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhxZxL56B00

  45. Someone

    I have never forgotten the dead in Iraq. You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter. Killing Muslims is OK if it is Putin that does it?

  46. Residents of the Crimea are taking massive sums out of their banks, why? with all this good will feeliong for the Russian Empire.

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/krim-krise-bewohner-haben-massenhaft-geld-ab-a-958787.html

    This from Christopher Clarke on the paralells between 1914 and 2014. And why the geo political p[aralells are totally different.

    “German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier conceded that the EU foreign ministers (himself included) had been too quick during the early days of the crisis to engage with the Ukrainian opposition and too slow to take account of the larger geopolitical issues that are entangled with the crisis. This remark exhibited a level of self-critical reflection and a readiness to adjust to new developments that would have been completely alien to his early twentieth-century counterparts. The statement issued by European Commission President José Manuel Barroso on March 5 following a meeting of the Commission to discuss the situation in Ukraine struck exactly the right note.”

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/christopher-clark-on-parallels-between-1914-and-the-ukraine-crisis-a-958692.html

  47. 1,000,000 innocent murdered in the Iraq war; 4,000,000 families displaced, after George W Bush rolled out the ‘war on terror’ after the planned twin towers operation.

    Putin took advantage of this scam after calling Bush with his sympathy after learning of the 9/11 attacks, graciously offered to help with the invasion of Afghanistan.

    Then Uzbek President Islam Karimov allowed the U.S. to build a permanent base, sensing that his new alliance with the war on terrorism would reduce world scrutiny of human-rights abuses that included gross acts of torture in Uzbekistan, like boiling humans alive.

    What other atrocities can we attribute to this terror con game?

  48. “The Maidan crowd are most unhappy with the unelected interim government, seeing it as a replacement of one corrupt oligarch with another set of election-losing, corrupt oligarchs with a smattering of fascists for good measure. This government is going to lock them into an IMF adjustment programme that will pauperise them for decades.”

    Precisely!

    Remember that Baroness Ashton told these pawns/protestors to go back to their homes.

    The West now had a govt it could do business with, whatever about what the protestors wanted.

    For good measure that govt has now recruited the fascist thugs into a 60,000 Ukrainian Defence Force which will ensure there are no more protests.

    Job done.

    How anyone can support what’s going on here is beyond me.

    I’d imagine they just don’t understand the full implications of it all.

    It’s a continued appeasement of US and neocon thuggery which may not end well.

  49. I agree with Craig’s analysis. However, the elephant in the room that seems to be overlooked is the fact that this joke of a referendum would not have happened had the U.S-instigated coup not been intended to isolate Russia from the outset.

  50. What sort of hell and high water, one wonders, will Baroness Ashton raise to ensure that the planned general election in the autumn will take place, how will she ensure that the ballot is monitored by someone reputable?

  51. The comparison of Hitler’s treatment of Austria and Putin’s of the Crimea seems ludicrous to me.

    Austria was a broken imperial power, like Germany, and when the victorious Western powers did nothing to stop his invading, it was hardly surprising that the Austrians supported him invasion overwhelmingly. To act as if more time about that referendum would have changed the result seems groundless to me.

    If Hitler had stopped then rather than going further with military aggressions, the Nazis might well have succeeded in taking over Europe.

    Putin has only used Russian power to support Russian ethnics from being taken over by non-Russians who support Western powers while trying to prevent non-Russian bits of its old empire from breaking away. He has good reason to suspect the West of wanting to destroy what’s left of Russia.

    And here too I see nothing changing for the better if the referendum were delayed in the Crimea.

    To make Putin sound like the German dictator is just another example of playing the Hitler card in discussions.

  52. Paul Barbara

    16 Mar, 2014 - 1:05 pm

    I agree with a lot of what ‘By Their Fruits’ aays. Check out ‘US caught planning terror attacks in Ukraine’
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/03/14/354594/us-planning-terror-attacks-in-ukraine/
    This is the usual MO that the CIA and other ‘Security Agencies’ have become adept at; the whole so-called ‘Arab Spring’ was nothing but a fomented ‘Regime Change’ scenario, funded by Soros, NED etc.
    4* General (ret) Wesley Clark, ex-Supreme Allied Commander Europe, is on video saying that in 2001, shortly after the 9/11 ‘Attack’, he visited the Pentagon to find out what was being planned, and was told the US was going to overthrow ’7 govts. in 5 years: Iraq (they had already started bombarding Afghanistan), Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran’ (obviously the time scale has slipped). French ex-Foreign Minister Roland Dumas is on record saying that in 2009 he was told by two high British Officials that Britain (and France) were going to overthrow the Assad regime with mercenaries, and asked if he was interested.
    ‘Ukraine Protests Carefully Orchestrated: The Role of CANVAS, US-Financed “Color Revolution Training Group” –
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-protests-carefully-orchestrated-the-role-of-canvas-us-financed-color-revolution-training-group/5369906
    Identical ‘Street Warfare’ leaflets (except the languages), the first from Egypt, the second from Kiev.
    Re above link ‘US caught planning terror attacks in Ukraine’, the attack on an airfield with planes attacked is just like ‘Operation Red Rock’, where US Special Forces raided a Camboodian Air Base, destroyed a load of aircraft, left dead Vietnamese Sappers they had brought for the purpose (of making it look like a Communist raid) to get Lon Nol ‘off the fence’, and in the war on America’s side.
    Neither Putin nor the Chinese are ‘Angels’, but I thank God they are standing up against the marauding NWO Bankster War Criminal psychopaths/sociopaths.
    One last point: re Venezuela and Maduro, in 2000, eleven months before 9//11, Nick Rockefeller told Aaron Russo that ‘there was going to be an incident, and because of it he would see the US going into Afghanistan and Iraq, he would see US troops hunting through caves for Arabs, there would be a ‘War on Terror’, and after that the US was going after Venezuela (remember the 2002 Coup attempt?); well, the time-scale has slipped on that too, but the same type of sniper killings of both sides is occuring now (see ‘Aaron Russo – Historiic Interview’
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3NA17CCboA

  53. “You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter.”

    I was pointing out that both sides have killed many people. I NEVER said that “Chechens don’t matter”, you Craig have lied, so please don’t make things up!, makes you look an idiot.

  54. “There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.”

    By the looks of it, it is very unlikely that the calm and peacefulness would have increased with the passage of time.

    Given that “the West has retreated from the concept of international law”, what could Putin get away with other than military force?

  55. It isn’t much of a referendum as referendums go.

    But it’s a darn sight more than the Palestinians get as Israel annexes more and more of their land, they get no referendum at all.

  56. Have to disagree with your claim that Russia has been much worse that the US Empire on the flouting of international law. That’s simply wrong. Russia is an imperial power, but compared to the US it is a rather small and ineffective one, at least in scope.

    I think the context is all important here. Russia is responding to aggression to protect its interests, not initiating it to secure new ‘interests’. To me that is very different from initiating aggression, which is the forte of the US Empire.

    Maybe it’s easier for me to take this approach because I don’t feel personally invested in the situation in any ideological way, unless the truth is an ideology. I am simply studying the situation and attempting to give everything its due based on the available data, past and present.

    In dealing with moral sticky wickets like Russian military or other responses to the situation and emotionally-charged issues like being anti-war and respecting laws etc. I usually end up applying the ‘law of three’ rather than relying on absolute rights or wrongs as defined by standard moral convention. The ‘law of three’ states:

    ‘There is ‘good’ and there is ‘bad’, and there is the specific situation which determines which is which.’

  57. Craig is simply putting out unbalanced guff now. No mention of the violent fascist led coup in Kiev? No mention that the fascist non democratic new government in Kiev voted to abolish the Assembly in the Crimea without a referendum or the fact that the UN voted to make any referendum in Crimea illegal? Nobody is saying that Putin is an angel but all perspectives have been lost in these latest posts

  58. “Craig is simply putting out unbalanced guff now.”

    Chris Jones,

    I agree!, I think Craig is undergoing some mental issues at the moment.

  59. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 2:12 pm

    Tovarish Goss

    “One sycophantic comment-maker has been raiding the apple-barrel to set himself up as teacher’s pet again, having suffered some disgrace by having comments binned through not having done his homework. It must be pretty galling for Craig to have attracted such a bedmate.”

    ______________________

    ??

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Under normal circumstances I would agree myself with the blog-post, although I do not think the comparison with Hitler’s invasion of Austria is valid because of the extraordinary circumstances in the Ukraine.”
    _______________

    Yes, we know that argument – there are always ‘extenuating circumstances’, aren’t there :)

    “My client knows that rape is wrong, m’Lud, but the girl was wearing a rather short skirt, wasn’t she”

  60. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 2:23 pm

    Tovarish Goss

    “Resident Dissident, argue against the video (did you watch it?) not what you consider my politics to be.”
    ____________________

    In general I think it’s fair to say that posters reveal where they stand politically through the links they provide.

    ******************

    “Life is getting better, life is getting merrier!” (J. Stalin, ca. 1932. 1932!!)

  61. “Craig is simply putting out unbalanced guff now.”

    Chris Jones,

    I agree!, I think Craig is undergoing some mental issues at the moment.

    So you speculate, someone, is that not something you should have learned about when you were young?

    Would it matter much to you if your own personal medical history is, at convenient time to us, bless, off course, be subject of debate amongst an international crowd here?

    or would they be rather interested in the issues of concern in this thread?

  62. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 2:28 pm

    Hurbi

    “You’re wrong about the oligarchs as well, of course. He prosecuted many of those who benefitted from the neocon rape of Russia under a Yeltin drunk on neocon largesse, whilst others of them fled to the West.

    There’s a kinda pattern there.”
    _____________________

    There is indeed. The oligarchs who cosy up to rasPutin still have a free run in Russia and have been neither prosecuted nor forced to flee abroad. Fact.

    **********************

    Support your local ras-Putin approved oligarch!

  63. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 2:29 pm

    Resident Dissident

    “What f***ing planet do these people live on. They’ll be repeating the line that the Holodomor was down to crop failures and poor administration next.”
    _____________________

    They already have, through links provided. Cf posts and threads passim.

  64. My colleague in the States, Gilbert Mercier, issues a warning about how the US can end up shooting itself in the foot by imposing sanctions following the resounding referendum vote. He also thinks it will be a test of the BRICS alliance as an economic power.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2014/03/15/ukraines-crisis-economic-sanctions-could-trigger-a-global-depression/

  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 2:38 pm

    “It is not a question of lauding Putin as a latter-day hero as you so persistently and pejoratively impute to your critics;”
    __________________

    Whether that’s the question or not, it is a fact that rasPutin is being so lauded by many on this blog.

  66. John Goss; BRICS seems to lack mortar. China voting against, Putin dumping US obligations before the the coalition agrees it’s time.

    BRICS has a long way to go.

  67. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/cyber-angriff-hacker-von-cyberberkut-legen-nato-website-lahm-a-958894.html

    Brüssel – Mehrere Internetseiten der Nato sind in der Nacht zum Sonntag Ziel eines Hackerangriffs geworden. Zu der Attacke bekannte sich eine ukrainische Hackergruppe.

    Die Gruppe mit dem Namen CyberBerkut teilte auf ihrer Webseite mit: “Wir erklären, dass wir heute um 18.00 Uhr eine Attacke gegen die Nato gestartet haben.” Die Nato habe auf ukrainischem Territorium nichts zu suchen, hieß es weiter. Die Erklärung wurde auf russisch abgegeben.

    FREELY translated this means
    More than one of NATO’s internet websites were target of an hacker attack on Sunday night. A Ukrainian hacker group owed up to the attack.

    A group with the name Cyber Berklut announced on their website that ‘we hereby declare that we attacked NATO today at 18.00hrs.’ it further declared that NATO should keep itself out of Ukraine’s territory. The declaration was in Russian.

  68. “So you speculate, someone”

    nevermind 16 Mar, 2014 – 2:26 pm

    I do not “speculate”!, you should read ALL the posts above before making your comment!, “is that not something you should have learned about when you were young? “.

    Read comment

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:00 pm

    Then

    craig 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:25 pm

  69. “Nobody is saying that Putin is an angel but all perspectives have been lost in these latest posts”

    Well we haven’t been sufficiently acerbic when discussing the Sith Lord, so our condemnations of Putin fail to link him to the Chicago fire, or Tiananmen Square, making us complicit in his Crimean grab.

  70. even worse than speculate, someone, conjecture. Your point was irrelevant and your personal dig afterwards was spurrious reaction.

    Far from arguing the toss, I shall go into the garden for some dig digs.

  71. “Far from arguing the toss”

    nevermind 16 Mar, 2014 – 3:00 pm

    I am not “arguing”!, I am given the relevant facts!, which you seem not to want!.

  72. The situation in Ukraine has generated a tsunami of closed minded comments where most obfuscate the simple selfish human need of creating behemoth ‘bogymen’ for greed, gluttony and rapacity.

    Sir Roderic Lyne, a spurious spokesman for Chatham House fails to mention the irresponsible talk of Ukraine EU and NATO membership, preferring instead to dwell on a ‘strict conditionality’ to [IMF] funding Ukraine, invoking the economic ‘hit man’ approach favored by the West.

    http://www.chathamhouse.org/media/comment/view/197743?dm_i=1TYG,2893B,EBBWWI,82K3R,1

    The west urgently needs to give a clear and unconditional assurance that it will help Ukraine to recover and for now there can be no question of Ukraine, or any part of Ukraine, becoming a member of either the EU or NATO.

    History tells us Russia abandoned its plan for missile bases on Cuba while the US agreed to withdraw its missile bases on the Soviet border in Turkey. What happened? Russia is now surrounded by missile defence systems – laughable.

    Straddling the wire ex Russian ambassador Rodric Braithwaite makes a weak contribution, invoking ‘democracy’ to real deeds somewhat void of truth and more towards exploitation of the Ukrainian people.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukraine-crisis-no-wonder-vladimir-putin-says-crimea-is-russian-9162734.html

    Putin is a mafioso, a hoodlum fighting the West’s proxy assassins, butchers and exterminators while their advocates sniff cocaine in the wooden panelled powder rooms of the politically elite temples, lodges and child abuse guest houses.

  73. If the ‘Maidan revolution’ had been legitimate…
    That is to say,had a democratically elected President been evicted via the ballot box, then Mr Putin’s moves would certainly be judged,as you maintain,illegitimate.
    However, we, Britain, Europe and the Americans,implicated up to the hilt in a (another) putch here, can hardly cry foul.
    May I remind you Mr Murray of;
    The ‘Fuck Europe’ incident.
    The ‘Ashton sniper’ incident.

    This is about regime change and moving missiles up to Russia’s borders.

    In a word Mr Murray, you are simply rooting for ‘my Mafia’ against ‘their Mafia’.
    It is a pity you cant see that it is a case of ‘a plague on both your houses’.
    Particularly Nuland’s and McCain,s whose short sighted actions are only going to perpetuate a world few of us want for our children.

  74. Austerity just seems like more corruption to the Ukrainian people, Mark. If the EU really, really wants Ukraine, let them fund the bailout and tell the IMF to go fish.

  75. Mark Golding – that seems like a fair and balanced assessment – can you maybe sit in for Craig for the next few posts on this issue perhaps, so that a balanced perspective can be put across?

  76. The ever hapless Jen Tsaki vainly attempting to defend the indefensible:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE

    Even the Washington Press corps can tell a bullshitter when they see one.

    We should just surrender to Putin’s Akita now.

    The US is run by fuckin morons and we’re following them to hell:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N8zDnFBe9c

    What happened all those clever clever clogs from West Wing.

  77. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 3:23 pm

    “The ‘Fuck Europe’ incident.”
    ____________________

    Well, those who claim to suffer shock at hearing AS Nuland use the “f” word are very naive and have obviously never had dealings with the world of diplomats speaking with the microphone off.

    But of course their expression of shock are entirely synthetic.

    More concretely: “fuck the EU” is trotted out regularly by those who wish the US and the West ill, but it is never contextualised lest it reveal something less than diabolical. Could someone do us the service of reminding readers to the precise context (preferably by using the verbatim of the conversation, which is widely available)? Ie, why “fuck the EU” according to AS Nuland? In response to what, exactly?

  78. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 3:26 pm

    Mr Golding

    “Putin is a mafioso, a hoodlum fighting the West’s proxy assassins, butchers and exterminators while their advocates sniff cocaine in the wooden panelled powder rooms of the politically elite temples, lodges and child abuse guest houses.”
    _______________

    You should really consult a pyschiatrist. But at least you’re not dangerous.

  79. “What happened all those clever clever clogs from West Wing.”

    Herbie; I am curious as to who you mean. ‘Clever’ can cover a wide area.

  80. BRICS; A threat to the West.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-crisis-economic-sanctions-could-drive-a-fragile-world-economy-into-a-financial-quagmire/5373597

    ” Ukraine crisis is a major test of BRICS‘ geopolitical validity as an economic group, political force and potential military alliance. China, Russia’s biggest partner in BRICS, has been strangely muted about Ukraine and the Crimea referendum, urging for “restraint on all sides” and pushing for a political solution.

    During the emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council on March 15, 2014, on a resolution to declare Crimea’s referendum illegal, China did not side with Russia by using its veto power but instead abstained from voting. China’s abstention does not fare well for the future of BRICS, as it plays into the strategy of the US and its EU partner to isolate Russia. China, by its abstention from the UN vote, and India, Brazil and South Africa, by their subdued responses, have already played into the hands of the US and its European allies. Will China and other BRICS members step in forcefully to stop the madness of multilateral economic sanctions?”

  81. Habby

    “Well, those who claim to suffer shock at hearing AS Nuland use the “f” word are very naive and have obviously never had dealings with the world of diplomats speaking with the microphone off.”

    No one cares about her using the word “fuck”. That’s just talking point cover to distract from what was really going on.

    The “Fuck the EU” relates directly to the scuppering of the agreement that had already been signed by EU, Russia and Ukraine opposition, from which the US was excluded.

    Then the snipers came…

  82. Ben

    I don’t see anything clever, in any sense of the term for Tsaki and the other idiot.

    I suppose the sad truth is that they don’t have to be especially clever anymore.

    Americans are stupid enough to make deeply inadequate enough.

    Current company excepted, of course.

  83. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 3:45 pm

    “I agree!, I think Craig is undergoing some mental issues at the moment.”

    By your comments you reveal more about yourself than anything else.

  84. the upcoming meeting between EU, Russia and Ukraine opposition from which the US had been excluded.

    Deal signed by above.

    Then the snipers come.

    “Fuck the EU”

    In a criminal case that neocon Nuland would be examined closely on what exactly she meant by “Fuck the EU”.

    It helps of course when the answer is obvious.

  85. “You should really consult a pyschiatrist”

    Have you gotten to this one, RD?

  86. Those who keep talking about “Fuck the EU” are doing exactly what the mass media want them to do, as this video I keep posting that nobody watches, explains. It was what came before “Fuck the UK” that was important. Victoria Nuland sucking up to the Nazi godfathers.

    http://scgnews.com/the-ukraine-crisis-what-youre-not-being-told

    I see the video stopped RD commenting on that particular topic.

  87. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 3:58 pm

    John Goss

    Resident Dissident, argue against the video (did you watch it?)

    Perhaps since it just repeats what has already been said – I would like to hear you arguments against this first

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

    Which of course comes from someone who knows rather more than you about fascism in this part of the world – and is not afraid to criticise those who support it from either side of the argument
    http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/

  88. I wrote “Fuck the UK” in my last because we are part of Europe. Long may that continue.

  89. Sorry for the length…

    http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/eu-and-imf-spell-disaster-for.html

    “We only have to look at Poland, which is often put forward as an EU success story, to find clues about what would happen to Ukrainian workers under the umbrella of the EU.

    Because Poland’s Gross Domestic Product grew in the years following the 2008 recession, the capitalist press dubbed the country’s growth, which has since slowed, as the “Polish Miracle.”

    How did this “miracle” happen? What has the “miracle” meant for Polish workers?

    The GDP of Poland has grown as a direct result of German investment and EU aid, while the situation for working people has not improved. In fact, the basic condition of this investment is the guarantee of cheap labor costs. When the recession hit, German capital simply went across the border where wages are lower.

    The unemployment rate in Poland is 14 percent. One in 19 Poles are forced to leave the country to look for work—work that for the vast majority of emigrants is beneath their level of education and experience.

    At 25 percent, Poland has one of the largest low-wage work forces in the European Union, according to the European Union itself. In reality this figure is much higher because the EU figures a country’s labor statistics by country and not in relation to the entire EU. For example, a low-wage worker in Germany makes over twice as much as a low-wage worker in Poland.

    A staggering 35 percent of children in Poland now live in poverty.

    On top of all this, in order to join the EU in 2004, Poland enacted drastic market reforms that greatly eviscerated the social safety net.

    In other words, the EU, with the help of the IMF, has overseen the creation of Poland as a source of cheap labor for Germany and other European powers. Poland’s wealth has grown, but it has been diverted from the Polish masses to the German capitalist class.”

  90. Then there was the Latvian economic “miracle”

    http://www.gatewayhouse.in/latvia-economic-miracle-or-mangled-economy/

  91. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 4:17 pm

    I wonder did anyone hear bother to read what Craig said regarding the OSCE’s report on Yanukovich’s last election (we could of course point to his serial rigging of elections) before they start parroting their master’s voice on the subject.

  92. For a longer time-line on austerity; Japan. They, along with US and UK can print their own money, so it’s even worse for dependent economies.

    http://www.social-europe.eu/2013/01/japan-abandons-austerity/

  93. I just had a look at your second link Resident Dissident. Timothy Snyder’s second article is much better informed than the first you posted. In the second he demonstrates that the fascists were the previous Yushenko government (that of Timoshenko who has westernised the spelling to Tymoshenko in case she gets associated with Stalin) while he mentions in the first that Yanukovich had made reforms against this fascism. However he also writes:

    “Although Yanukovych rescinded most of the dictatorship laws, lawless violence by the regime, which started in November, continued into February. Members of the opposition were shot and killed, or hosed down in freezing temperatures to die of hypothermia. Others were tortured and left in the woods to die.”

    Of those deaths we know about according to the Paet/Ashton recorded call, were most likely caused by the Fascists who fired on both sides, and not “the regime”. In not making that clear he certainly knows less on that particular item than I do. Now would you kindly criticise the StormCloudsGathering video. They are the same Fascists from the Yushenko,Timoshenko government – which would then make everything understandable to all.

  94. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 4:38 pm

    “In the second he demonstrates that the fascists were the previous Yushenko government”

    No he doesn’t. This is typical lickspittle trick – whereby you think you can label someone’s whole political philosophy by reference to a single action – the equivalent would be me calling you a KGB thug and Mafioso for your support of Putting.

    “Of those deaths we know about according to the Paet/Ashton recorded call, were most likely caused by the Fascists who fired on both sides, and not “the regime”. In not making that clear he certainly knows less on that particular item than I do.”

    They are not the same deaths as referred to in the Paet/Ashton recorded call which was about snipers towards the ned of the Maidan protest. I very much doubt that Snyder knows less than you do – might I suggest you do a little more research on the protest rather than relying on your rather narrow sources of information.

  95. China’s abstention makes Obama ‘clever’ by one-half. 4 days before the UNSC vote.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-obama-china-agree-ukraine-sovereignty-22847822

    “The Obama administration is stepping up its attempts to court China’s support for isolating Russia over its military intervention in Ukraine.

    With official comments from China appearing studiously neutral since the Ukraine crisis began, President Barack Obama spoke to Chinese President Xi Jinping late Sunday in a bid to get Beijing off the fence.

    The call was their first known conversation since Russian forces took control of Ukraine’s pro-Moscow Crimea region. It came amid signals that Russian President Vladimir Putin was hardening his position on Crimea, which is due to vote on joining Russia in a referendum this weekend that the U.S. and its allies have vowed not to recognize.

    In making his case, Obama appealed to China’s well-known and vehement opposition to outside intervention in other nations’ domestic affairs, according to a White House statement.”

    Uh, that last sentence…..huh?

  96. John Goss

    Resident Dissident, argue against the video (did you watch it?)

  97. Syria-UN-Putin-Cameron

    “..it has become increasingly difficult for us to source and analyze the casualty figures in order to update them,” Rupert Colville, U.N. Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.

    Last count 9,052 Syrian children killed – Human Rights Data Analysis Group

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/13/death-toll-syrian-conflict-93000

    Putin-to-Cameron

    “Who has the blood of children and peaceful citizens of Syria…one hardly should back those that kills the enemies and eat their organs and all that is filmed and shot – do you want to support these people…who wants to supply arms to these people?..”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJ0fdvKlQQ

    Who needs a pyschiatrist[SIC]?!!

  98. It’s called ‘projection’ mark.. :)

    Why is no one discussing the Tartarus/Sevastapol connection?

    Too many ‘clever’ people for us to count.

  99. John Goss,
    I am in agreement with you:-
    “To make the blog-post reasonable it is necessary to go back to primary causes of the referendum, that is, a load of thugs (this is not a popular rising but a western-funded coup) have taken over the legitimate government of the Ukraine.”
    It is a bit naïve, to say the least, not to recall in the post-World War 11 era the long list of state sponsored terrorist interventions, and many destroying democracy and/or nationalist leadership which placed more emphasis on policies that sought to assist the masses and/or opposed the “banana republic” supplicant relationships. If I am to be doubted, just a few references:-
    Iran – 1953 – Mohammed Mossadegh – a nationalist leader with respect for Western style democracy, ousted in the first CIA sponsored coup. A direct link can be drawn between the overthrow and installation of the Shah all the way through to the 1979 revolution and the current US/Iranian tensions today. As a side note, it was the US that led the Shah to nuclear. He at first could not understand why nuclear when Iran was oil rich; the US convinced him that with nuclear more oil would be available for Iran to sell on the world market, thus providing the Iranian economy with more income. The training of nuclear scientists and sales of nuclear technology actually pre-dates the 1979 revolution and is not a post-1979 phenomenon just thought up by the Islamic revolution.
    Guatemala – 1954 – there was a democratically elected leader called, Jacob Arbenz who was overthrown in a CIA sponsored military coup. The point here, as with Mossadegh before him, being that as Mossadegh was aware of the undervalue of the oil Iran was selling on the international market and had determined to nationalize oil, and pay the Western companies fair market price for the acquisition process of nationalisation, so too Arbenz wanted to address the not dissimilar problem of foreign exploitation relative to lands and Guatemalan bananas. The CIA overthrow here – gave us the name “banana republic” for that is exactly what transpired post coup.
    There is a very long list that one can insert hereafter of similar acts of destruction of nationalist leaders or fledgling democracies, coming from the same source.
    …..Chile?
    Venezuela – 2002 – there was an attempted coup ( i.e. the vote and polls was not the route to power). Washington immediately recognised the coup leaders, but promptly reversed itself when it realised that the Latin American nations and the OAS would not sanction and/or permit recognition of the coup.
    All of this ( well not all – just a very, very truncated history) to suggest to all the analysts on this thread that the historical factual record runs counter to the declared formal narrative of “democracy”, “freedom”, and “equal rights for all”.
    Ukraine – 2014 – the “government” in Kiev is the product of a coup. Moving forward, the issue for the West is not one of democracy or the absence thereof. For, how can one have embraced the likes of the
    Svoboda Party? We are talking here about a political grouping that is as close as any could be to the actual original Nazi party and fascism – not any nationalism – nationalist socialist – of any decency.
    Again John:-
    “To make the blog-post reasonable it is necessary to go back to primary causes of the referendum, that is, a load of thugs (this is not a popular rising but a western-funded coup) have taken over the legitimate government of the Ukraine.”
    And – you are correct.
    What Herbie said also embraces reality and speaks to historical truths:-
    “The West has thrown international law out the window and we now live in a world of trial by combat and cunning. The more observant Westerners will have noticed that increasingly we are forced to live in this manner in our own individual states.”
    It has done so for a very long time, as I have here argued ( e.g. consider, if you will, the horrors of the Belgian Congo – human rights abuses in the millions – and the ouster ( CIA coup) of Patrice Lumumba).
    The point being not so much that the will of the people and/or any decent form of democracy is a bad thing. True democracy, if the leader does not toe certain Western and/or US lines, is not really given a chance. Even the EU finds itself supplicant to US foreign policy. Post the Soviet collapse, would it not have made sense to have disbanded NATO, then seek a negotiated global peace by decommission through treaty much of the surplus armaments and nuclear arms in the world. To the contrary the neo-cons immediately saw, with the absence of the Soviet Union opportunities for war, war, war and more war. If I am to be doubted, then please listen to this:-
    On youtube : Wesley Clark ( US 4 Star General ) US will attack 7 countries in 5 years.
    In the face of this type of evidence one cannot sensibly deny the willful militarism as it marches around the globe. But, who is the prime mover and who then is compelled to respond in the “great game”?
    So far as the pursuit of democracy in Ukraine is concerned, as one American President observed about their chosen installed leader – that he may be a “son of a bitch” but he was the United States son of a bitch.
    As it was yesterday in so many other countries – so too it is in Ukraine – unless we choose to ignore the history of what has actually transpired throughout the world.
    Craig: As a footnote: Where you state, “I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000*, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people….” I would take licence and complete the sentence with, “ accompanied by related levels of economic exploitation globally and a denial of rights in numerous countries around the world.”
    *So 1945 to 2000 ( to which you refer Craig), if we are to maintain a global perspective, I guess then we cannot remove and/or ignore the reasons for, the consequences of and the continued trajectory of “full spectrum dominance” projected into and around the world.
    CB

  100. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:19 pm

    Yes John I watched the video which I’m afraid was the usual one sided argument that you prefer – in particular there was no reference to the violence against the Maidan protestors pre Feb 20 (there are films of the Berkun firing on protestors and numberous accounts of their torture of those they captured) , no reference to what their grievances were, no reference to the fact that the vast majority were not supporters of Svoboda, no reference to the fact that nearly all the senior positions in the Govt have gone to those who are not supporters of Svoboda, no reference to what the Russian govt was doing why all this was going on, no reference to the corruption of the Yanukovych regime. I could go on – but I suspect I am wasting my time, given I expect that you would be just a craven in supporting whatever provocation the Putin regime may draw up to justify it invading another bit of the Ukraine.

    Yes there were facists on the side of the protestors – but I think you forget that the same can be said of many of Putin’s supporters – Zhrinovsky was one of the first to visit the Crimea after its invasion of the Crimea.

  101. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:26 pm

    Golding

    Most of the blood of innocents in Syria has been spilt by your “lion” Assad often with Russian weapons provided by your other hero. That your backward Islamist friends have joined in is inevitable as flies being attracted to shit.

  102. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:30 pm

    Of course Putin is not above asking a few of his European “fascist” friends to come and rubber stamp his rigged referendum in the Crimea

    http://euobserver.com/news/123453#.UyL2MnERZfw.facebook

  103. Some interesting thoughts on the neocon backed fascist coup in Kiev, and a rare insight into the career of billionaire Ukrainian criminal Julia Hryhyan, better known to her fans as Yulia Tymoshenko.

    Before and after pics as well:

    http://annaraccoon.com/2014/03/06/uk-raine-terrain/

  104. Utter failure by all contrarians to conflate Putinlove and the Left. Projection into the black-and-white analysis leaves little self-awareness for subtle shades of grey. The lack of ‘heroes’ in this matter makes all arguments of self-congratulatory dicktator hatred shrink like my johnson after a cold dip.

  105. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:35 pm

    Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??

  106. Vlad, be my Dad

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:49 pm

    ‘Contempt for international law’ is a bit tendentious here. Putin may well take an instrumental view of international law, as the US government does. For the Government of Russia, that would be a rational response to counter US advantages in illegal use of force.

    But with his Syria editorial, Putin introduced a hermetic US society to the UN Charter, the officially-suppressed supreme law of the land that almost no one in the USA has read. By informing Americans that peace is the law, Putin has made a unique contribution to jus cogens. Russia has a Commissioner on Human Rights in the Russian Federation – compare that to the US NHRI, a hopeless bureaucratic labyrinth fixated on discrimination to the exclusion of all other rights. Russia cooperates with human rights special procedures to a degree that would be inconceivable in the US:

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/ENACARegion/Pages/RUSummary2010.aspx

    In progressive implementation of international law, of course Russia sucks. In respect for and compliance with international law, Russia sucks less than the US government. Putin’s not a messiah, that’s a straw man. Putin’s state is the only effective check on a criminal US regime that is the world’s most serious threat to peace.

  107. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:49 pm

    And of course here’s no option on the ballot paper for people to keep things as they are – democracy Putin style, just imagine if Salmond had thought of that!

  108. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:53 pm

    “In progressive implementation of international law, of course Russia sucks. In respect for and compliance with international law, Russia sucks less than the US government. Putin’s not a messiah, that’s a straw man. Putin’s state is the only effective check on a criminal US regime that is the world’s most serious threat to peace.”

    More moral relativism – and I suppose that makes Putin’s treatment of the Russians all ok? You will find that the same argument was common among Stalin’s fellow travellers and useful idiots – but he got found out eventually.

  109. @RD

    “Yes there were facists on the side of the protestors – but I think you forget that the same can be said of many of Putin’s supporters – Zhrinovsky was one of the first to visit the Crimea after its invasion of the Crimea”

    The Russians have a long standing deal with Ukraine to base up to 25,000 soldiers in Crimea. There has been no invasion thus far as they were already legally there. Check your facts.

    Again, Putin is no angel but in this case he is not the instigator or aggressor

  110. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:56 pm

    @Ben

    “Utter failure by all contrarians to conflate Putinlove and the Left”

    The real left don’t love Putin or other autocrats – remember Orwell.

  111. Ah, Res Diss

    “Of course Putin is not above asking a few of his European “fascist” friends to come and rubber stamp his rigged referendum in the Crimea”

    So soon back and again you’re gleefully posting propaganda as fact in an effort to mislead readers of the blog.

    I think you’ll find that many many politicians from Europe and elsewhere, of differing persuasions, have been invited to monitor the referendum, and they’ve been invited by EODE, not by Putin.

    Even Israeli observers have been invited.

    However, the French fascists FN have not been invited:

    “Précisons donc que le FN français n’a pas été invité par EODE.
    Nous n’entretenons strictement aucune relation avec le FN et nous ne changerons pas. Et nous ne les invitons pas pour des raisons liées à nos propres positions politiques. Et à l’activité politique de certains de nos administrateurs, radicalement engagés depuis plus de deux décennies contre les FN en Belgique et en France.
    Par ailleurs les positions de la majorité des responsables de l’extrême-droite française sont opposées à l’auto-détermination de la Crimée et en faveur des nouvelles autorités ultra-nationalistes de Kiev. Un conseiller de Marine Le Pen, Aymeric Chauprade a reçu une proposition d’invitation à titre personnel, comme géopolitologue, par le Parlement de Crimée et pas par la Direction d’EODE. Nous ne comprenons donc pas (ou trop bien) ses déclarations en ce sens. Ajoutons que 24h plus tard, la présidente du FN a désavoué à la fois le référendum en Crimée et son conseiller.”

    http://www.eode.org/

    It’d be a good idea if the mods took a closer look at your posting history. You seem only to post here in order to deliberately mislead.

  112. Res Diss the one-sided arguments, as you call them, in the StormCloudsGathering video have not been seen on MSM at all. Now that’s what I call one-sided. It is the same MSM media that supported the Iraq war that has not been reporting the facts. It is the same MSM that speaks on behalf of its extremely wealthy lobbyists (the banksters). I would like to have something favourable to say about news reporting, but apart from a few arts-related topics I am stretched to find anything. Remember I got criticised 24 hours after the Paet/Ashton recording that it had not made the news. Well I have news for you. It has still not made the news. Yet all the lies about Russia invading Crimea (when they are legally entitled to have 25000 troops there). When the referendum is ratified they will be able to station as many troops there as they want. What a cock-up in supporting the Nazis!

  113. “More moral relativism – and I suppose that makes Putin’s treatment of the Russians all ok?”

    More B/W simplism. How do you suppose power is achieved in global politics? It’s a cauldron of molten humanity wherein the dross metals rise to the top. Of course, that is true only in systems you have a problem with.

  114. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 5:59 pm

    “The Russians have a long standing deal with Ukraine to base up to 25,000 soldiers in Crimea. There has been no invasion thus far as they were already legally there. Check your facts.”

    Where in the agreement did it say that they could surround Ukrainian Army bases, go around in uniforms without insignia (I’m sure they will suddenly put them on tomorrow), or put up barricades on roads into the Crimea – don’t be so thick as to believe everything that Putin tells you.

  115. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:01 pm

    Hurbie

    Let me give you a lesson. It’s free.

    “No one cares about her using the word “fuck”.”
    _____________________

    So why do you and your fellow-Eminences keep referring to it? I don’t, Resident Dissident doesn’t, Uzbek-in-the-UK doesn’t – so why do the Eminences?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “That’s just talking point cover to distract from what was really going on.”
    ____________________

    Precisely. The Eminences keep making that talking point to distract from what was really going on, ie, the ousting of the corrupt, Russian puppet by a popular uprising.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “The “Fuck the EU” relates directly to the scuppering of the agreement that had already been signed by EU, Russia and Ukraine opposition, from which the US was excluded.”
    ___________________

    Could you – or perhaps your friend Tovarish Goss, who claims to know the conversation so well – please show us, using the verbatim of that phone conversation, the relationship between that expression and the conversation that immediately preceded it. Just to demonstrate, using the verbatim, how that expression represented a desire to “scupper” the agreement.

    *************

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:08 pm

    Hurbie to Resident Dissident:

    “It’d be a good idea if the mods took a closer look at your posting history.”
    _________________

    And at yours, Hurbie. Why do you take such exception to a poster who’s obviously not a parrot and a useful idiot?

    In blog terms, a call for censorship and/or banning is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

  117. Who is the ‘real Left’? I’ll leave that to RD.

    http://www.logosjournal.com/orwell-and-the-british-left.php

    The Independent Labour Party

    When he did get involved in politics, Orwell chose to join a distinctively British body, the Independent Labour Party, which was towards the left and indeed the revolutionary flank of the British Labour Movement, but which had many distinctive approaches that Orwell shared. He was not as lonely a figure as an American socialist with similar ideas may have been, not least since socialism was in the mainstream in Britain.

    The ILP had left the Labour Party earlier in 1932, but still had a wide, albeit shrinking base, members of parliament, and indeed still had many close connections and sympathizers inside the Labour Party itself and the unions. Although the ILP considered itself revolutionary, it was by no means Leninist and was open and non-dogmatic in its beliefs, with a mixture of pragmatic belief in improving the lot of people now and a firm belief that things could and should get much better – without being too specific about the form that future society would take.

    It held what it called a “Third Way” position between Leninism and Labour Party right’s reformism, which is, of course, not to be confused with Tony Blair’s and Bill Clinton’s later appropriation of that title.

    The ILP believed that socialism could be brought about by an elected Labour Party, which could suppress counter-revolution “by ordinary legal power backed by a Labour organization, and could thus effect the revolutionary change to socialism.”

  118. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:19 pm

    Herbie

    It is the Russian Government that is reported to have invited the fascists not EODE in the link I provided.

    John Goss

    I think you will find that the MSM media reported all the substantive points in that video as well as all the points being made by the opponents of the Iraq War. You clearly have something of a problem with media that report both sides of a story and allow people the free choice to make up their minds. I note you silence of the Russian govt suppressing bloggers who express alternative views to their own. Re Putin’s lie about the invasion of the Crimea I refer you to my previous response – which has also been made a number of times before by others including Habba and ESLO.

    Ben

    “It’s a cauldron of molten humanity wherein the dross metals rise to the top. Of course, that is true only in systems you have a problem with.”

    Just not true – I have no love whatsoever for the British Conservative Party or its Lib Dem supporters. Fortunately, I live in a political system where I can do something about them.

  119. @Resident Dissident

    “Where in the agreement did it say that they could surround Ukrainian Army bases, go around in uniforms without insignia (I’m sure they will suddenly put them on tomorrow), or put up barricades on roads into the Crimea – don’t be so thick as to believe everything that Putin tells you”

    So you agree that you were incorrect in your statement that the Crimea has been invaded?

  120. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:25 pm

    Ben

    The ILP’s MPs rejoined the Labour Party in 1947 and the ILP rejoined Labour as a pressure group in 1975 where it still exists to the present day

    http://www.independentlabour.org.uk/main/

    Orwell always made it clear that he was a supported to the post 1945 Labour Government.

  121. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:26 pm

    So you agree that you were incorrect in your statement that the Crimea has been invaded?

    Absolutely not.

  122. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:27 pm

    Hurby

    Thank you for drawing our attention to EODE – the “Eurasian Observatory for Democracy and Elections”.

    Taking a break from organising the triumph of Nazi-style fascism in Ukraine, I had a quick look at its website.

    It is, apparently, a “non-aligned NGO”.

    Leaving aside for a moment the memories which the word “non-aligned” awakens (you are probably too young to remember, Hurby), I noted the following:

    “EODE conception is that the EU on the one hand and the CIS – which Russia is the heart – on the other hand, are the two halves of the Greater-Europe from Vladivostok to Rejkjavik. They have a common destiny and are called one day to form a common state unity”.

    I’ll let readers draw their own conclusions from that blurb.

    CURIOUSLY enough, although the EODE homepage mentions the existence of a “Board of Directors” and a “Scientific Council”, it seemingly prefers not to mention who the members of these two bodies are.

    Could any Eminence – it doesn’t have to be you, Hurbee – perhaps enlighten me as to why Russia should be happy to have people from EODE observe the conduct of the referendum but not observers from the OSCE?

  123. “Is NATO a military organisation? Yes.”
    “Is it moving towards Russia’s borders. Yes.”

    The numerous pro-establishment trolls afflicting this comment facility constitute a DDOS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack on the site, preventing earnest discussion or meaningful debate and discourages user participation, I don’t for one moment believe these opaque popularity polls indicating the site’s traffic are reliable and not manipulated -that the site is moribund, stagant, toxic to all life, thanks to these sycophants is patently evident. Its effect on us dear readers is negligible, on one of the rare and increasingly more infrequent visits, are found the same tireless champions of privilege, the status quo and promoters nay apologists for unmitigated evils of inequality and abuse of ill-got power strutting their stuff as if they owned the joint, as absent of any significant change – the inception of the ideas and practice of demo-cracy or merito-cracy – which such craven worms would un-naturally abhor, casting them into the oceans of mediocrity which is their true lot, they do infact ‘own’ all of it, all of us are ensnared in their traps and wheels. See the previous topic on Scotland’s Independence Referendum, which has become an incestuous orgy of the usual suspects reinforcing each other’s highly-selective piss-poor pro-union talking points championing a feudalist exploitative hierarchy from which they expect or hope to receive some reward. We are many, they are few, despite the blustering fart-laden cacophony of the now dominant claquers serving the Empire and by deluded wishful-thinking that they can rise, serve themselves, who vie for attention. It may repel us dear readers, it’s effect on this blog’s esteemed and perhaps malleable Emperor is to sway his thought, stay his pen and doubt his instincts which service of the same empire, same rackets, already sought, quite openly to dull and diminish.

    New Moderators for Old. Dinner is served in the Long Hall, till later then fellow slaves.

  124. KILL the Messenger Film Release date OCT 10, 2014

    Kill the Messenger, Starring Jeremy Renner, is Coming in October
    Source: Focus Features
    March 5, 2014

    Focus Features announced today that Kill the Messenger, starring Jeremy Renner (Marvel’s The Avengers, The Bourne Legacy), will be released on October 10, 2014 in limited theaters. The movie will then expand on October 17 and again on October 24.

    The dramatic thriller is based on the remarkable true story of Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Gary Webb. Webb (Renner) stumbles onto a story which leads to allegations that the CIA was aware of major dealers who were smuggling cocaine into the U.S., and using the profits to arm rebels fighting in Nicaragua. Webb keeps digging to uncover a conspiracy with explosive implications – and draws the kind of attention that threatens not just his career, but his family and his life.

    Josh Close, Rosemarie DeWitt, Andy Garcia, Lucas Hedges, Tim Blake Nelson, Robert Patrick, Barry Pepper, Oliver Platt, Michael Sheen, Paz Vega, Michael Kenneth Wiliams and Mary Elizabeth Winstead co-star in the Michael Cuesta-directed film.

    Read more: http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=115609
    http://variety.com/2014/film/news/jeremy-renners-kill-the-messenger-set-for-oct-10-release-1201125790/

    YouTube Trailer AMC Theaters
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEPRbl7arMc&feature=youtu.be&a
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_the_Messenger_%282014_film%29

    IMDB
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1216491/

    http://www.sandiegored.com/noticias/44601/Enrique-Camarena-s-death-is-blamed-on-CIA/
    Enrique Camarena’s death is blamed on CIA
    War of American agencies in Mexico.

    http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_24343140/ex-dea-officials-make-bombshell-allegations-about-kiki
    Oct 26, 2013 02:15:19PM MDT
    Ex-DEA officials: CIA operatives involved in ‘Kiki’ Camarena murder
    By Diana Washington Valdez / El Paso Times El Paso Times

    Background on Gary Webb
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022291453

    http://whosarat.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=163286

    http://www.scribd.com/benharper404040

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/111246977/Powderburns-COCAINE-CONTRAS-AND-THE-DRUG-WAR
    http://powderburns.org/testimony.html

    “There is no question in my mind that people affiliated with, on the payroll of, and carrying the credentials of,the CIA were involved in drug trafficking while involved in support of the contras.”

    —Senator John Kerry, The Washington Post (1996).

    “Several informed sources have told me that an appendix to this Report was removed at the instruction of the Department of Justice at the last minute. This appendix is reported to have information about a CIA officer, not agent or asset, but officer, based in the Los Angeles Station, who was in charge of Contra related activities.According to these sources, this individual was associated with running drugs to South Central Los Angeles,around 1988. Let me repeat that amazing omission. The recently released CIA Report Volume II contained an appendix, which was pulled by the Department of Justice, that reported a CIA officer in the LA Station was hooked into drug running in South Central Los Angeles.”

    –U.S. Congresswoman Maxine Waters – October 13. 1998, speaking on the floor of the US House of Representatives.

  125. Habby

    If you agree with Res Diss posting very obvious propaganda pieces, then I’d suggest you’re both useful idiots.

    ================================

    “Fuck the EU” in that context means that she disagreed with what the EU, the Ukrainian opposition and the Russians were in the process of agreeing, in order to avoid the shambles and further potential violence the neocons were creating. They’d excluded the American neocons from that meeting.

    After the EU, the Ukrainian opposition and the Russians had agreed a deal the snipers moved in to scupper it.

    That’s clear enough.

    The EU organised agreement was fucked.

    “Fuck the EU”

    You can put your own interpretation on her words as you see it, should you wish, and readers can judge for themselves whether it makes sense or not.

  126. @Resident Dissident

    Stick that head in that sand and proceed to stick fingers in ears

  127. ” I have no love whatsoever for the British Conservative Party or its Lib Dem supporters. Fortunately, I live in a political system where I can do something about them.”

    How’s that working for you?

  128. “Could any Eminence – it doesn’t have to be you, Hurbee – perhaps enlighten me as to why Russia should be happy to have people from EODE observe the conduct of the referendum but not observers from the OSCE?”

    I think you’ll find that OSCE declined.

    I think you’ll further find that Merkel and Putin have agreed for OSCE to monitor events in east Ukraine, this very day in fact.

    Merkel is having to clean a lot of American diapers these days. They think their bluff, bluster and bullying is grown up politics you see.

    She’s the mammie whilst the Americans are still playing cowboys and Indians.

  129. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:38 pm

    “How’s that working for you?”

    We’ll see in 2015 subject to convincing the electorate.

  130. Vlad be my Dadd

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:39 pm

    Res Diss, your comments are those of an ignoramus. Come back when you’ve read the prior review proceedings of each country by the charter and treaty bodies.

  131. “We’ll see in 2015 subject to convincing the electorate.”

    So far, not so well, then?

  132. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:43 pm

    @Chris Jones

    “Stick that head in that sand and proceed to stick fingers in ears”

    I think you will find it works better the other way around but I’ll bow to your greater expertise on such matters. Bet you think that the Russians were invited into Prague and Budapest in 1968 and 1956.

  133. “”Russia is a gas station masquerading as a country,” John McCain said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

    pot/kettle

  134. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:52 pm

    “Come back when you’ve read the prior review proceedings of each country by the charter and treaty bodies.”

    Already have – they say more about the UNHCR than anything else – perhaps you should read the reports on each country by Amnesty/HRW/Reporters without Borders/Transparency International/Bloggers that Putin is trying to ban and then we can compare notes.

  135. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 6:58 pm

    Vlad be my Dadd

    I would also be interested on your views of the working of the Russia Cyprus tax treaty and how often Russian oligarchs and those close to the President have observed the niceties of Russian Law when it comes to getting Central Bank of Russia permission before opening foreign bank accounts and holding investments in foreign companies, or have got the requisite permissions for the sale of those Russian resources that they have liberated from state control.

  136. Putin is corrupt and FUBAR, and less hampered by voter dissatisfaction, but his forked-tongue seems less reptilian than the duplicitous leaders of the West. That’s about all the Putinlove I can muster.

  137. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 7:09 pm

    I’ve always thought that a rather effective sanction against Russian’s worst elements would be an amendment to the G20 money laundering regulations that would freeze the bank account and investments of any Russian national until they could demonstrate that they had complied with Russian law by providing the necessary permissions – would be difficult for Vlad to complain about us helping to support Russian law. The Best thing is that Switzerland and all the tax havens would have to comply.

  138. Discussion is academic. Some will not like hearing that 93% voted in favour of union with Russia.

    Crimea exit poll: Around 93% back Russia union
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26598832

  139. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 7:20 pm

    Yes Mary – but I’m sure with a little bit of encouragement they can get that figure above 100%.

    Given that at least 36% of the population are ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars – would you say that a 93% vote – perhaps suggested that this was another Soviet election that didn’t reflect the views of the entire population. Perhaps Mary would like to comment.

    And how many voted for the status quo – well that is easy to answer – 0% because there was no such option on the ballot paper!

  140. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-21/news/mn-60465_1_black-sea

    “Ukrainian Defense Minister Vitaly Radetsky warned that “Crimea is part of Ukraine and we won’t give it up to anyone, no matter what it may cost us. Everyone should know that.”

    Western and Russian observers worried aloud Friday that the fight threatened to turn explosive.

    One diplomat in Kiev commented that “the only way Ukraine can stop (the Crimeans) is with the use of police power, and that runs the risk of confrontation.”

    Jubilant Crimean deputies applauded and hugged each other after an overwhelming majority of 69 out of 73 present approved the bill restoring a 1992 constitution, which puts Crimea’s relations with Ukraine on a foreign footing.

    Toward evening they went a step further by considering an appeal to Moscow and Kiev to allow Crimea to move toward rejoining Russia, the Interfax news agency reported.

    A worried group of dissidents in the Crimean Parliament warned that the vote on the constitution would lead to violence.

    “I am very afraid,” said Lila Budzhurova, an ethnic Tatar. “This vote has put Crimea on the verge of civil war.”

  141. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 7:21 pm

    And Mary – why do you think discussion is now academic?

  142. ” perhaps suggested that this was another Soviet election that didn’t reflect the views of the entire population. ”

    It never does; not anytime, not anywhere in the World. Oh…that wasn’t your point.

  143. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 7:31 pm

    Based upon the reported 80% turnout – a 93% yes vote suggests that 100% of ethnic Russians voted for Union with Russia and 38.5% of ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars – ho hum!

  144. On top of what has already been mentioned that MSM have not been reporting there was a plan through the US attache to Ukraine to cause false flag events and blame it on the Russians. Because Anonymous Ukraine released the emails it never came to fruition. But don’t put it past the Yanks to try something else. The Stars and Stripes, with all its sick history of sticking standards everywhere and claiming a new state, is a false flag itself. What else can we expect from them?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw

  145. There is no reasonable claim that Putin’s swift plebiscite is necessary because of an imminent threat of violence against Russians in Crimea.

    How do you know?

    There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position. Putin has proved that force majeure is powerful in international politics, and there is every reason to believe that he could have finessed international acceptance of such a referendum in due course.

    So Putin is stupid? I really don’t think so.

    You’re saying he’s wasting money using armed forces when he should have left the job up to his diplomatic service.

    In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest.

    Spoken like a true British diplomat. Also said by Brits about France. Always makes me laugh! Funny, when you consider that Britain is a dependency of those brash buggers in the US! Shut down Menwith Hill and then say it. Or sanction the US until it shuts down Guantanamo.

    Or here’s one – you know how the Brit media have sneered at Russia’s use of its veto on the Security Council? Well how about next time the US vetoes a resolution to help Israel (which for more than 20 years has been the most common reason that any country has vetoed anything at the UNSC) – how about, when it happens again, the ‘Brit’ government and ‘Brit’ media might criticise that? They haven’t got the guts!

    You also use the word “interest” in two different meanings in the same sentence.

    That’s the rhetorical device that classical scholars will recognise as antanaclasis. Here it confuses things.

  146. Typo. I typed:

    next time the US vetoes a resolution to help Israel (which for more than 20 years has been the most common reason that any country has vetoed anything at the UNSC)

    I should have been clearer by typing:

    next time the US vetoes a resolution which criticises Israel (which for more than 20 years has been the most common reason that any country has vetoed anything at the UNSC)

  147. John Goss @ 7.34pm “Wrong referendum, wrong saviour” and I gave the wrong link. Apols. This is the correct one.

    http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_14/Operation-Independence-Continues-Anonymous-exposes-US-invasion-plans-in-Ukraine-7517/

  148. Was Yalta worth it?

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/crimea-yalta-history/index.html

    “Many Ukrainians — including interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyk — think Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to expand Russia to the old borders of the Soviet Union. They say that if Moscow is allowed to annex Crimea, it will look hungrily to eastern Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia. They lament what they saw as the West’s indifference when Russian tanks came within 50 miles of the Georgian capital Tbilisi in 2008.

    And they fear Putin will continue to do all in his power to stop Ukraine from knocking at the door of that “common European home” by seeking to join the European Union”

  149. @RD “I think you will find it works better the other way around but I’ll bow to your greater expertise on such matters. Bet you think that the Russians were invited into Prague and Budapest in 1968 and 1956″

    I’m not a defender of all things Russian. That’s not what this is about.This is 2014 and not the Soviet Union-bringing up 1956 and 1968 is silly.

    ps-the extra sand in the ears will help the buffering

  150. antanaclasis…..had to look it up.

    “”Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana”

  151. That’s not what this is about”

    Nope. It’s a Putinesca sauce for the pasta.

  152. Chris Jones, me neither. I’m not a defender of all things Russian. In fact Yanukovich having gold taps, a luxury yacht and private zoo disgusts me. It makes me think of Tony Blair and the Queen.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8AYzc_Q9Us

  153. Right. Done.

    Now what about Puerto Rico.

    Perhaps the Russians can advise on that.

  154. “Now what about Puerto Rico.” The US rarely gives up turf unless for economic reasons.

    Bases in Germany, Japan, Korea and Iraq needed for global activity.

  155. I said some would not like hearing the result.

    ‘With polls closed, it is reported there was a turnout of more than 80%, with around 93% voting in favour of union with Russia.’

    ‘In a statement, the White House said: “As the United States and our allies have made clear, military intervention and violation of international law will bring increasing costs for Russia – not only due to measures imposed by the United States and our allies but also as a direct result of Russia’s own destabilising actions.

    “In this century, we are long past the days when the international community will stand quietly by while one country forcibly seizes the territory of another.”

    Foreign Secretary William Hague also said the UK would not recognise the outcome.

    He said: “I condemn the fact that this referendum has taken place, in breach of the Ukrainian constitution and in defiance of calls by the international community for restraint.

    “Nothing in the way that the referendum has been conducted should convince anyone that it is a legitimate exercise.

    “It is a mockery of proper democratic practice.”

    He believed measures were needed to “send a strong signal to Russia that this challenge to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Russia will bring economic and political consequences.

    Mr Hague added: “Furthermore, any attempt by the Russian Federation to use the referendum as an excuse to annex the Crimea, or to take further action on Ukrainian territory, would be unacceptable.”‘

    I am sure President Putin is shaking in terror.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1226921/crimea-referendum-poll-93-percent-vote-for-russia

  156. Who was the greater enemy of the Public, Al Capone or J. Edgar Hoover?

    Viva la differance !!!

  157. @Chris – I think it can be useful to bring up Budapest 1956 if people then do some proper comparing and contrasting. In Budapest, secret police snipers killed ordinary police officers. The ordinary police responded by killing massed unarmed demonstrators. There is surely a lesson there. It is remarkable that so few commentators outside of the Ukraine are even mentioning the Ukrainian secret police, the SBU, which some call the ‘FSBU’ because of how closely it has worked with the Russian FSB.

    My view is that Russia overplayed its hand with the economic agreement, and that it then recogised that fact and decided to consolidate and fast. If they hadn’t, of course the putschists would have tried to create ‘facts on the ground’ (in current parlance) in the Crimea. Psychological warfare to that end had certainly already started.

    To recognise all of that, one doesn’t have to be the sort of person who insists that the only reason that Germany invaded the Sudetenland was to protect Germans.

    The rulers of Russia don’t want US warships in Sevastopol and they don’t want the Black Sea to become a US lake. I think they would be willing to fight a nuclear war to stop that.

    I have been pleased that despite the obscene yearning in the British and western media for incidents to occur in the Ukraine which are then followed by a hot and large-scale military confrontation (why? a chance to showcase weapons, as in Georgia? reasons of wider strategy? or getting pieces into the right position for an imminent western financial collapse?), this hasn’t yet occurred.

  158. Thanks for that Mary. I had a good laugh. Especially the US saying: “In this century, we are long past the days when the international community will stand quietly by while one country forcibly seizes the territory of another.”

    So was that reserved for Iraq and Libya? Or does it go back to Hawaii? I guess Hawaii is so close to the coast of the US it is seen as being considered geographical territory. Hmm!

  159. ” (why? a chance to showcase weapons, as in Georgia? reasons of wider strategy? or getting pieces into the right position for an imminent western financial collapse?), ”

    Or padding the taxpayer bill by replenishing ordnance inventories?

  160. @N_ It’s relevant in that most of history is relevant then..?

    William Hague, Cameron and the US ‘leaders’ have all lost every single jot of credibility – they are simply a nightmareish collection of insane clowns spouting out a constant spew of toxic nonsense. They have gone passed the point of satire – the most hideous spitting image characterisation of these people would be pointless and would never be far fetched or garish enough to do them justice.

    When will this horrible pantomime end? and how can we draw the curtains on the act and put the horrible puppets away in a secured room?

  161. technicolour

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:05 pm

    Hold on, hold on. Although many aspects of the UK government have me frothing with fury, the UK did actually have a vote about whether to bomb Syria or not. Was that not a good thing, and a better thing that the warmongers lost?

  162. “CAUSE A NEW IRON CURTAIN TO FALL ON EUROPE
    And we have seen nothing of what Washington and Brussels would be capable of in this area. The Ukrainian crisis was probably triggered for no other reason than, ultimately, to force us to buy US shale gas (13), to sign the TTIP (without which the former can’t be sold in Europe (14)) and to justify a renewed increase of American-NATO military budgets (15) thanks to the restarting of a Cold War between the West and emerging nations (except for this detail that it’s the West which will be on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain this time).”

    http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-83-is-available-Global-systemic-crisis-escalation-in-the-US-reaction-for-survival-trigger-a-cold-war-to-make-it_a15801.html

  163. The transponders were also turned off on 9/11, Mark.

    The mystery deepens when you remember that planes can still be tracked via radar, but their descriptors would not show. This goes DOUBLE for military radar.

  164. @Technicolour That was a close escape and purely down to people power/overwhelming pressure from the electorate telling their MP’s to say ‘NO’ in my view. Without it most of those would have been happy to go along with another illegal attack..

  165. TTIP was to be the end-run around BRICS, someone, because the Petrodollar must not die. Gas shipped to Europe must be by ship and the US has few ports set up for CNG, but they are furiously working on it. If a choice had to be made, preserving the status of the dollar holds sway, IMO.

  166. Uzbek in the UK

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:22 pm

    Little summary of mad western leftie normative approach.

    US invades Afghanistan – is bad

    US invades Iraq – is bad

    Russia supports Karimov (after bloody murder of hundreds of innocent people) – is bad but not enough to condemn Putin, because he generally is good guy

    Russia invades Georgia – is GOOD as Georgian (according to Russian propaganda) shelled innocent Osetians

    Russia invades Ukraine – is GOOOOOOOOD as Ukrainians who in fact have finally decided to overthrow Putin’s suck-puppet and elect president that will care about Ukrainian interests (after 23 years of formal independence from Russia). But thanks to Putin’s propoganda that is the ONLY source of truth for western mad lefties Ukraine is run by fascists just like referendum posters show in Crimea.

    So death of Muslim Afghans and Iraqis is not accepotable but death of Muslim Uzbeks, Chechens and Dagestanians is quite acceptable, because Putin is a good guy.

    British Empire is bad, Russian empire (which is much elder than British empire and outlived the former) is good, because Putin is a good guy.

    Bending international law by US is bad, but bending internal law by Russia is good, because Putin is a good guy.

    Use of military force by US is bad, but covert Russian military operation (after all Putin accepted presence of Russian military in Crimea in conversation with Crimea Tatar leader in Kremlin), because Putin is a good guy.

    Intimidation by US is bad, intimidation by Russia (of every former soviet republic) is good, because Putin is a good guy.

    So, if only Putin sticks to his anti-western rhetoric, everything is acceptable for mad western lefties. Their enemy is in fact not inequality (which in Russia is times grater than in Europe), not denial of Human Rights (Human Rights in Russia is suppressed to lowest since 1991), not authoritarianism (democrat in modern Russia is abusive word), not imperialism (interventions to Georgia and Ukraine confirms Russian imperial missions). Their enemy is west. Everything and everyone who oppose the west is a good guy. And everything is acceptable if done by a good guy.

    And now spit your mad leftie bile.

  167. technicolour

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:23 pm

    @ Chris Jones – well, yes. Democracy, as we know it, worked, though still nothing to be complacent about.

  168. Craig; “the point is whether the will of the people has been affected by military demonstration, fear, hysterically induced national psychosis and above all an absence of space for debate or alternative viewpoints”

    The will of the people have indeed been affected, by the Coup in the Ukraine, by the sort who have been put themselves in power in Kiev, and by the animosity directed at them as signaled by the attempted ban on the Russian language; on a general point, are elections held in times of crises, or during war, not valid ?

    “I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest.

    That is such a non-point, as you can substitute Germany with a host of other countries.

    “It is very likely such a genuine referendum would have gone in Russia’s favour”

    So if you believe that, you have to admit that the right result was delivered today.

    “But the disadvantages of open debate about the merits and demerits of Putin’s Russia, and his own self-image as the man of military prowess, led Putin to take the more violent course”

    Nice Conspiracy Theory; so Putin is afraid that he will come worse off in any comparison to the perceived Western Fascists Stooges !

    “perhaps with the aim of promoting civil war in which Russia can covertly intervene, rather than open invasion, but I do not put the latter past him”

    That’s odd, didn’t you recently start a Post with the opening line “By sending troops into the Ukraine, (others than those stationed there by agreement) Putin has broken international law” ? You really do seem to be in a bit of two minds as to whatever Russia has invaded the Ukraine or not !

    “I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality”

    I guess that the never ending war against the Third World escaped your notice, unless of course you think that us Westerners enjoying a decent standard of living at the murderous expense & ruthless exploitation of both other people & natural resources is our God given right, so doesn’t count as a cost.

    “Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran”

    Rather than Putin’s desire that Russia doesn’t end-up like Yugoslavia, or Iraq ?

    “It speaks to the extreme political failure of the western political system, and the degree of the alienation of which I spoke, that so many strive to see something beautiful in the ugly features of Putinism”

    I would suggest that you are imagining that the people who are understanding the realpolitik non-choices Putin has been forced to make, are also admiring his warts.

  169. Uzbek in the UK

    16 Mar, 2014 - 9:33 pm

    I am convinced that not many of mad western lefties believe in historical evidences of Holocaust (judging this by too many anti-Semitic posts here), and it is ,most likely waste of time to convince them of historical evidence of genocide against Chechens and Crimea Tatars (by Russia). It is very convenient to remove settled population to certain difficulties and (for many) certain death, and 70 years after allow (very different) settles population to vote on a matter of national loyalty.

    Centuries pass, people and cultures change but one truth remain. If one does not have enough power to deny the other temptation of conquer and submission, one will loose his land, his self and his life. Post 1945 world is finaly coming to existence.

    Western liberal social democratic (as Mr Murray highlighted it) order is coming to an end. The future is for powerful and intimidating nations. The ones who will have power to conquer and submit the others. Those who are not prepared be ready to give up your land, your self and your life.

  170. Flight 370 ended up in mainland China, according to flight aware.

    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS370

  171. Uzbek in the UK

    “Russia invades Ukraine – is GOOOOOOOOD as Ukrainians who in fact have finally decided to overthrow Putin’s suck-puppet and elect president that will care about Ukrainian interests (after 23 years of formal independence from Russia). But thanks to Putin’s propoganda that is the ONLY source of truth for western mad lefties Ukraine is run by fascists just like referendum posters show in Crimea.”

    Sorry, I try to keep explaining that the Ukraine is not Uzbekistan. It does not have a single dictator. It has changes of government. The Fascist government, last but one, is the same one that is being backed by the west now. Why? You might ask.

    http://scgnews.com/the-ukraine-crisis-what-youre-not-being-told

  172. Our precious bodily fluids…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

    This is the only answer I can give Uzbek.

  173. TonyM; “Is NATO a military organisation? Yes.”
    “Is it moving towards Russia’s borders. Yes.”

    That’s the realpolitik bottom line, all else is ideological &/or prejudicial point scoring.

    You shouldn’t be too surprised at the “numerous pro-establishment trolls” afflicting this Blog, because not only do they get so bored spouting bile to each other at Sites like Harry’s Place, that they come here hoping to pass themselves off and get accepted as serious commentators , but also Craig does unfortunately seem to share some of the same irrationality that they thrive on, especially Russophobia, and that deluded belief that Westerners who criticize their Governments criminality, are motived by self-hatred !!

  174. “that deluded belief that Westerners who criticize their Governments criminality, are motived by self-hatred !!”

    Come again? You’re saying that Craig, who openly and under his own name, has made a track record of criticising UK governments’ criminality, has the ‘deluded belief that Westerners…blah blah blah’?

    Time for bed.

  175. Macky

    If all that counts is realpolitik, and it is just two military powers squaring up to one another, why do you choose to support one of them?

  176. Resident Dissident

    16 Mar, 2014 - 10:22 pm

    “You shouldn’t be too surprised at the “numerous pro-establishment trolls” afflicting this Blog, because not only do they get so bored spouting bile to each other at Sites like Harry’s Place, that they come here hoping to pass themselves off and get accepted as serious commentators , but also Craig does unfortunately seem to share some of the same irrationality that they thrive on, especially Russophobia, and that deluded belief that Westerners who criticize their Governments criminality, are motived by self-hatred !!”

    Well I hoped that made you feel better – I really have no idea as to your motivations but please rest assured that my dislike of Putin is driven by a love of Russia and Russians rather than any phobia – and like Craig I believe that they belong with the Ukrainians as part of the European family of nations.

  177. What has happened to Ukraine’s gold reserves? Bearing in mind that the US is bankrupt, and that the week before the gold reserves were apparently stolen by the Yanks acting prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk accused the Yanukovich government of having stolen the gold reserves.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-gold…/5373446

  178. Critique has a role, but I prefer if people proffer something beside that lazy methodology. JMO, of course. I don’t want charges of ‘dicktator’ to emerge as a diversion.

  179. Relax, John. The phantom gold is alive and well in all our imaginations. My question is; WTF are they guarding at Fort Knox? Aliens?

  180. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 10:32 pm

    Another gem from N_

    “In Budapest, secret police snipers killed ordinary police officers. The ordinary police responded by killing massed unarmed demonstrators.3
    __________________

    Wrong. Secret police marksmen killed demonstrators and not ordinary policemen. And the ordinary police went over to the demonstrators, as did most of the Hungarian military. For Heaven’s sake do your research!

  181. “why do you choose to support one of them?”

    Craig; Can we not dissuade you from taking what appears to be an intransigent position?

    Do you subscribe to the notion (as exemplified by Uzbek, Res Des, and Hababkuk) that there are clear lines of demarcation, making black and white the new Spring fashion?

  182. BTW; What happened to the mod decision to ‘pre-moderate’ the bleatings of a certain species of sheep?

  183. @Uzbek

    Can you support your case without attributing to your opponents positions which they don’t hold?

    And you imply that throwing bile is bad, but you throw a torrent of your own.

    Personally I think (and certainly hope) that the west is not about to provoke a full-scale war in the Ukraine. I tend to think that had they wanted to hit Russia really hard during the Summer Olympics, they would have done it in the Caucasus. For example, Britain’s pals in that area could have done another Beslan.

  184. Sofia Kibo Noh

    16 Mar, 2014 - 10:38 pm

    Paul Barbara. 1 05 pm

    You put it in a nutshell: “…I thank God they are standing up against the marauding NWO Bankster War Criminal psychopaths/sociopaths.”

    A short list maybe, but it covers the main attributes of the string pullers.

    How democratic is the Crimean referendum compared to the unelected puppet government in Kiev?

    Why should Ukrainian people be ruled by unelected, west-sponsored and rabidly anti-russian fascists?

    As well as trying to understand the Russian perspective on Ukraine it seems like it’s up to us to encourage our own politicians to insist on something better than Svoboda to aid the Ukrainian population that the, not so covert, actions of our elites have cut adrift from any semblance of democracy.

    Putin (Prince of Darkness) may be a flawed figure (aren’t we all, aside from me?) but he is taking a stand for victims of Nuland’s coup, ethnic Russians and none fascist Ukrainians alike.

    How long is it since a referendum in Western Europe achieved an 83% turnout or a 93% mandate? No need to get the electorate to try again like when the Irish got their vote wrong in 2008. Maybe the EU should send researchers to Crimea to see how democracy can work.

  185. Craig; “If all that counts is realpolitik, and it is just two military powers squaring up to one another, why do you choose to support one of them?”

    Same as NC really;

    http://noam-chomsky.tumblr.com/post/17547861328/my-own-concern-is-primarily-the-terror-and

    BTW you could have confirm to Technicolour your view on “Lefties”;

    “The problem is that many on the left will ever accept any analysis which does not simply say “Western evil bastards, Putin heroic defender f freedom”. Anything else is “ignorant”.

  186. Sofia Kibo Noh

    16 Mar, 2014 - 10:44 pm

    Some good news from elsewhere in Ukraine. It seems the puppet government cannot depend on the Ukrainian army.

    “Most of the soldiers calmly reacted to the actions of local residents and did not initiate any conflict. Moreover, they stressed that they will not use any violence against civilians.

    However, seven young people dressed in uniforms of the Ukrainian armed forces, but without shoulder straps, armed with Kalashnikov rifles with silencers, began to force the unit commander to “obey orders“ to disperse locals and dismantle the barricades.
    Reportedly, a scuffle occurred as the unidentified men threatened the residents saying they “betrayed Ukraine.” The troops’ commander who defended the civilians was injured in the fight.”

    More here: http://rt.com/news/ukraine-east-military-block-198/

  187. Also from ResDes, I have had nothing but evasion on the issue of who the ‘real Left’ is.

    It is a major bone of contention and if the flamers are left to party over the remains, nothing remains.

  188. ResDes;”my dislike of Putin is driven by a love of Russia and Russians”

    Same as your love for Syrians to be bombed because of your “dislike” of Assad ?

    (

  189. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 10:51 pm

    I think it’s fair to say that this thread , together with previous ones on the same subject, has got the Eminences and various other disturbed people hotter under the collar than any other.

    I also note that it is these threads which have, for the first time that I can remember, resulted in unprecedented abuse of Craig: insults include calling him a drunkard, mad, angling for a return to the FCO and being in the pay of the neocons.

    I marvel at Craig’s patience and his ability to suffer fools gladly. Perhaps he is of the school of the chairman of an engineering company in the Midlands (this was in the 1950s or early 60s and I believe the company was called Hardy Spicer) who said of his workforce when they went on one of their frequent strikes “I feel sorry for them. They are poor dears”.

    ***********

    Ruble plunging, buy dollars!

  190. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 - 10:54 pm

    “Most of the soldiers calmly reacted to the actions of local residents

    __________________

    Makes a change from burly Cossacks whipping the female members of the Pussy Riot group, doesn’t it :)

  191. It could be my error for which I apologize if need be. N_’s comment was 2 hours earlier.

    mea culpa.

  192. I take it back.

  193. Just been getting a barrel of laughs from the barrel of apples. Time for bed.

  194. Craig,
    I admire your fondness for hitlerite scenarios of modern history. This must be, however, quite exhausting as documented by your slight confusion concerning topography. Hitler has not entered Crimea but Kiev. If you have any doubts please have a look at the latest decorations of Kiev’s townhall.
    http://croah.fr/corbeau-dechaine/le-portrait-de-bandera-devant-lhotel-de-ville-de-kiev/

  195. “Ruble plunging, buy dollars!”,

    If the rouble is plunging, you buy the rouble.

    It can only go up.

    Otherwise we’re all dead.

  196. Craig, did you not feel it worth commenting on the death of Tony Benn, without doubt, in our times, the finest politician this Country has ever produced? The ironic connection between him & your posting on the Ukraine, is that he was famous for stating that his socialist & humanistic ideals actually strengthen the older he got, as opposed to the normal trend that is supposed to be that many people start with Leftist ideals but veer more & more to the Right as they older; in fact there are many recent cases of this, starting with Christopher Hitchens, and now including Richard Seymour. I direct you to a MediaLens thread about Seymour position on the Ukraine, and would suggest that the criticisms directed at his Ukraine stance, in particular those posted by “gloriousrevolution”, could also apply to your stance, apart of course, from the motivating factor, as career minded Seymour has to worry about being “marginalized”, but as you are already marginalized to a certain extent, one is left wondering as to exactly what is your motivation ?

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1394980439.html

  197. Craig,

    the picture of Hitler is a nice hoax but Bandera was a prominent sycophant of Hitler and a war criminal.

  198. Never mind about the gold, good people… (whether or not you agree with Craig. This (below) is potentially even more serious.

    http://rt.com/news/yarosh-destroy-russia-pipelines-186/

    And let us not forget “fuck the EU”. I hope Angela Merkel smells the coffee and distances herself from this awful regime.

  199. Macky

    I think that criticism is true of many on the left, yes. Thankfully not a majority.

  200. Wow. A non-denial, denial.

  201. And with that, Herbie…..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpOOy7voiZI

  202. John @ 10;25 pm

    nice one… people keep saying follow the £ $….

  203. None of this is about that tired defunct left / right paradigm. It is about illegal non democratic violent coups supported by hypocritical leaders in positions of power and the corporate media who lie and cheat their way around the world

  204. Cheers, Ben

  205. Halibabacs

    I hate to use these frivolous obscenities but as I fully and unconditionally identify with the EU, its marvellous commission, the elected as well as all the unelected bureaucrats, I must strongly object getting fucked by that sleazy Nudelman. Given your peculiar leaning and treacherous nature, it seems to me that you would not mind getting yourself nudel-fucked. Give the “new” old blue eyes a call but please dont write about the aftermath as this could be read by minors.

  206. Dmitry Orlov with reports from the front:

    “Is anyone really in control in Ukraine?”

    “it appears that Ukraine’s military (which has never been involved in any armed conflict anywhere and is poorly trained and poorly armed) is mostly on the Russian side already, and, in any case, not willing to follow orders from Kiev.”

    So the fascist govt in Kiev have raised a squad of 60,000 brownshirt goons:

    “It also appears that the National Guard goon squads being hastily organized by the government in Kiev may be effective at intimidating civilians, but that they won’t be much of a military force.”

    That the Europeans are supporting this nonsense on their borders is the height of insanity.

    http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/is-anyone-really-in-control-in-ukraine.html#more

  207. Craig; “I think that criticism is true of many on the left, yes. Thankfully not a majority”

    You actually believe that some Westerners criticize their countries simply because they irrationally hate their own countries, rather than they criticize bad things their countries do, because their personal ethical/religious sense of right & wrong is greater than any nationalistic dogma of “My Country, Right or Wrong” ?!

  208. People power, without violence.

    So, Putin told the truth.

    The West lied:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZXqftu6alE#t=193

  209. All hail the MOD’s new multimillion pound project on cyberwarfare and the impact of social media.

    How ironic that there is no comments facility for this on the site…

    i expect my computer will start acting even more strangely after posting this.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/16/mod-secret-cyberwarfare-programme

  210. Nice One, Macky. Gandhi said he was a member of the human race first, and citizen of his country second. Surely he wouldn’t be categorised as “left wing”?

    Also, the founding fathers of the United States (e.g. Thomas Jefferson) considered that democracy was based on people not blindly trusting their leaders but making them answerable to the people.

  211. Vlad be my Dadd

    17 Mar, 2014 - 12:53 am

    Ah, Res Dis, I see. You don’t even know what I’m talking about. You cite the UN refugee agency when you’re trying to talk about the human rights review process. Perhaps you mean the Human Rights Council or the Human Rights Committee.

    That’s the problem with you patriots. Your idea of the law is a puerile nyah-nyah contest between warring enemies. You can’t begin to talk about international law. Ignorant and increasingly irrelevant. You don’t even understand why the US is afraid to go to war. International criminal law, universal jurisdiction law, internationally wrongful acts – it’s all greek to you. I’d sooner waste my time with some drunk in an Elkhart bar.

  212. Michael Robinson 16 Mar, 2014 – 8:47 am

    I have been arguing the same point with Craig and others – regarding the ‘golden age of Western democracy’ being an illusion. Yes, regression to the mean is a good description of what’s going on. Democracy is a system, not an outcome. Thank you for the links.

  213. Resident Dissident,

    thank you for fighting the politkoms. They are a particularly odious kind.

    The two nybooks links (16 Mar, 2014 – 3:58 pm) are excellent and accord extremely well with my experience as a Ukrainian, with family and friends in southern Ukraine (Odessa and Dnipropetrovs’k oblast’).

    There are several here on this blog who have jumped to conclusions about what is going on in the Ukraine and in Russia based on zero understanding of Ukrainian, Polish and Russian history and guided by their political leanings. They appear to think that Western intrigue can change the course of a struggle that has been going on for centuries. It is strange that the alleged $5BN over 23 years of Ukrainian independence has left no mark in the consciousness of my friends and family members. These propagandists are smooth operators indeed, or perhaps the $5BN claim is dubious as is typical of all of US foreign ‘aid’.

  214. Политком Goss 16 Mar, 2014 – 4:47 pm

    The video you keep banging on about is a propaganda masterpiece, inviting us to jump to lots of conclusions based on a few isolated factoids taken out of current and historical context. Ignorami like you make the perfect target audience. Your argument in support of this video boils down to this – MSM lied to us about Iraq, ergo MSM always lie. A classic non-sequiture.

  215. Uzbek,

    take heart and don’t let them get to you. I believe in democracy despite what I see in the comment threads on this blog. For every mad leftie politkom there is a mad neocon, they just cancel each other out.

  216. karel 16 Mar, 2014 – 11:21 pm

    “Craig, the picture of Hitler is a nice hoax but Bandera was a prominent sycophant of Hitler and a war criminal.”

    An ignorant statement. The Soviets must have missed a trick then by not inviting Bandera, a sworn enemy, to Nuremberg. Let us know your source(s) for this accusation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

  217. No-one here has shown any interest in Wilheim Reich, which is a shame if we are about to see fascism rise again. How’s this for irony… Reich’s book “The Mass Psychology of Fascism” was banned by the early 1930s German communist party, and he was kicked out of the party. If they had taken a different (more enlightened) view of what he was try to warn about, perhaps they wouldn’t have so easily become the fascists first scapegoats.

  218. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 1:13 am

    Mackey. 10 41pm

    Thanks for the Chomsky link.

    “My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century.”

  219. All Governments and dictators are dangerous and should be abolished and then we may get some peace. Anyway when people wake up they may come to realisation its just a hologram.
    So here is a nice little number hot of the press.
    The Citizen’s Arrest of Tony Blair:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vevw36LcUm4&feature=youtu.be

  220. Resident Dissident 16 Mar, 2014 – 5:35 pm
    “Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??”


    The Crimean referendum was fully in line with international standards, its results should be recognised both in Ukraine and western countries, Austrian member of the European Parliament Johann Stadler said at the final press-conference of international observers on Sunday.

    Stadler [....] stressed that while he watched the voting he did not see any irregularities, such as putting pressure on voters, for example. As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.”

    Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_17/Crimean-referendum-in-line-with-intl-standards-laws-Austrian-observer-8550/

  221. CM
    “Human society is not perfectible, which does not mean we should not try. I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality. For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. ”

    The claim of the Gospels and the Qur’an is that ” ye are to be perfect “, and that perfection of faith allowed the early Muslims to defeat the surrounding Empires of Rome and Persia within a few years.

    But when the Muslims disobey the Qur’an and engage in a 40 year love affair with the neo-cons, or rather the neo-colonials against the express commands of Allah not to work in partnership with them, what do you get?

    In a Muslim country where the government is trying to fulfil its Islamic duty to provide law and order for society, an ally of the neo-colonial powers, Al Qaida, makes a fatwa that it is lawful to murder the soldiers, bus drivers, shoppers in the bazaar, in order to make a strategic political gain.

    In a non-Muslim country, where the government has ensured the provision of disabled parking spaces next to the entry to the major supermarkets, I see 75 year old widows hobbling to park their trolleys in the trolley bays while young Muslims, male and female, park their 63 reg Audis Rolls or BMWs in the disabled bays, and hop into the shop for half an hour with their children.

    There is something deeply repellant to those who have fought for centuries against colonialism abroad and capitalism at home, under the inspiration of people like Bob Crow and Tony Benn, that the creed of the Christian and Muslim alike is now ‘me first’, my own right to life and my own right to safety exceeds the rights of all my fellow beings.

    The Neo-con/neo-colonial mindset uses the label of ‘the ends justifies the means’: viz when I take power from the corrupt people who are sitting in the seats of priveledge now, by any illegal means, I will establish the rule of Islamic/Christian justice.

    Utter and complete and total irredeemable gonads. The justice of Islam whether from Christian or Muslim provenance can only be established by the obedience to Allah. Chalas/towow/ end of story/ no need to say any more.

    In relation to the right of Russia to oppose US ambition I respect them for their intellectual power in confronting illegal US interference in world affairs. As with Tony Benn, I admire his intellectual power in opposing neo-con and neo-colonial ambition.
    But I personally believe that the route to success is not through socialism but through faith. The UK became great on its base of Protestant faith and the good book being digested by UK citizens.

    Al Qaida is the enemy of Islam, and selfish exhibition of material wealth and defiance of human law is the work of Shaytan. Allah forgive the Muslims who should be an example of godd behaviour, not world famous for violence and abuse of power.

  222. Evgenii
    As for Nuremberg trials, Bendera was a fish too small to be fried. Anyway, the KGB got him at the end and not without a reason. If you want to believe in his innocent nature, then just stick to Wikipedia. It is written for people like you. Otherwise you can try links like http://www.infoseite-polen.de/newslog/?p=2410 to learn a bit more.

  223. Craig, I do realise that you think, this thing is not going to happen, and maybe it will, or maybe it won’t, but if The Prosecution of ANTHONY CHARLES LYNTON BLIAR goes ahead with my Ex Girlfriends Kid’s in The Prosecution Team (They are Both Highly Successful Lawyers) – With My Own Daughter as a Witness – For When His Thugs (Local Police) Arrested Her Twice When She Was 15, Merely To Collect Her DNA (walking home from our local park two minutes away..can we call on you as a witness (if necessary) to give Evidence for The Prosecution?

    She refused to give her Real Name. She Didn’t Run Away – Because She Hadn’t Done Anything Wrong. I phoned up the Police Station, and They Said We Haven’t Got Anyone Of That Name Here…But My Wife and I Had Already Had Witness Statements Over The Phone From All Of Her Friends…

    They Said She Didn’t Run…

    I said Can I have My Daughter Back Please…

    At 3:00am at The Ploice Station, I signed all the Papers Put In Front of Me without looking at them..and My Daughter Flew Into My Arms

    She was only 15, She hadn’t done anything wrong.
    and I Got Her Out Of Jail.

    What courage is that?

    Tony

  224. BrianFujisan

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:32 am

    Wise thinking By – Finian Cunningham -

    ” Crimea Self-Determination Amid Western Law of the Jungle
    The crisis stems from the Western allies engaging in a tug-o-war to incorporate Ukraine into the European Union, allegedly so that the former Soviet Republic would benefit from EU standards of economics, law and culture. This supposedly high-minded objective has been pursued by Washington, London, Paris and Berlin by destroying the sovereignty and constitution of Ukraine in their illicit support for putschists who overthrew the elected authorities in Kiev last month – after nearly four months of Western-backed street violence conducted by neo-Nazi paramilitaries.

    That violence also included acts of mass-murder, most probably, the evidence shows, carried out by covert snipers working for the Western-backed agitators, in which up to 100 people, protesters and police, were shot dead and hundreds more wounded.

    Now the Western sponsors of the coup d’état in Kiev turn around and accuse Russia of violating Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity because Moscow has welcomed the decision by the Crimean republic to hold a legally constituted referendum.

    More from this piece @

    http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2014/03/15/crimea-self-determination-amid-western-law-of-the-jungle/

  225. “There is no reasonable claim that Putin’s swift plebiscite is necessary because of an imminent threat of violence against Russians in Crimea. There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.”
    I’m sure Putin would then have won the “reasonableness” war, but, sadly, most major powers don’t seem to see the need for cool, considered, non rushed actions. It looks like no one is coming out of this affair with any moral high ground – certainly not “the West”, which seems determined to push Russia into a corner….

  226. BrianFujisan

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:45 am

    Ladies and Gentlemen:

    I want to begin by thanking the Russian Orthodox Palestinian Society for inviting us to attend this important meeting.

    We have just arrived from Syria. Syria, where there is evidence of death, destruction and outright murder, in all cities, villages and regions of the country.

    No one wants this absurd war to be ended.

    Everyone is crying and mourning to see the daily suffering of the Syrian people.

    But what do they do? Nothing!

    Quite frankly I say, that the approach of the United Nations, in particular that of the Human Rights Commission in Geneva regarding the Syrian crisis, contributes to deepening the disaster in which we live.

    The wars inside Syria are portrayed as a conflict between the forces of the state and the opposition forces.

    This is not true.

    Full piece @

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-destruction-and-murder-funded-by-foreign-forces-mother-agnes-mariam/5373684

  227. She was just a little 15 year old girl, and God, she can run, if she wants to run..she was her older brother’s diving mate when they both qualified for their Full Diving Certificates…

    You Know Going Really Deep Down…looking above at The Whales and The Sharks

    She had already done that Before The Massive Burly Policeman Threw Her To The Ground…He Put His Knee in Her Back – Cuffed Her From Behind…with these plastic things you use to tie up cables..He then picked up my daughter and threw her into the back of The Meat Wagon…

    Got Another One For You Sir…

    This One Told Me To FXCK OFF

    My Daughter

    I love Her So

    She is Really Shy Like Me.

    Tony

  228. Hopeless sophistry from the “Ethnic Scot” Murray.

  229. Re above. I did Say My Daughter Got Arrested Twice when She Was 15 years old…

    The police didn’t realise this time…

    They already had her DNA from the first time…

    This time none of her friends ran away – the police gave them all a lift home..

    But still, she wouldn’t give her name…so Her Older Brother’s Girlfriend Saw Her In The Police Bus (They Had Upgraded The Meat Wagon) and said to her – come on – You Really Do Not Want To Be Arrested AGAIN…

    Just Tell Them Your Name

    The Meat Wagon was Parked Right Outside Our Home

    Still We Had To Go Through The Disciplinary Interview

    First Time At The Police Station…

    Second Time We Invited All The Coppers Round To Our House…

    I thought if they want to give me a lesson they can all come round to my home.

    The Third Time 3 Years Later She skipped school – dressed herself as a Press Photographer with her camera…

    And She Spun Between The Riot Police With All There Heavy Metal Gear and Helmets…

    And The Peaceful Protestors…and they looked at each other – wanting to have a bit of a ruck…

    And they saw my daughter between them taking all the photographs…

    Look at her – She is Really Embarrassing Us..We can’t fight now – she might get hurt…

    The next day she went again with all her school friends..and the Police escorted them right to The Front..So that she could take photographs of Obama’s Cavalcade when he arrived in London

    My Daughter is Something Else

    “Someone or something that cannot be described in words. It’s not a good thing, but a great one.”

    Tony

  230. here’s how to do it – when the right Saviours are on your side:

    Haaretz – Report: Syrian opposition willing to trade Golan claims for Israeli military support
    Top opposition official tells Al Arab newspaper militant groups want Israel to enforce a no-fly zone.
    “Why shouldn’t we be able to sell the Golan Heights because it is better than losing Syria and Golan at once,” Kamal al-Labwani, a prominent member of the Syrian opposition, told the Arab newspaper, according Al Alam, an Arabic language Iran state-owned media outlet.
    The Western-backed militant groups want Israel to enforce a no-fly zone over parts of southern Syria to protect rebel bases from air strikes by Assad’s forces, according to the report…
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.580169

  231. So is what you’re saying that the people of Crimea and every other region of Ukraine have a right to vote for Union with Russia, just as the Scotch have the right to vote themselves out of the UK or the Venetians to vote themselves out of Italy, but you just think that the vote was not valid?

    If so, then had the vote been conducted under absolutely perfect conditions, what do you think the outcome would have been? A strong vote for sticking with the $5-billion-dollar Nazi usurpers in Kiev, or what?

  232. of course, sell off the resources even before you get your jihadi allies to offer you the land:

    22 Feb – Global Research: Israel Grants First Golan Heights Oil Drilling License To Dick Cheney-Linked Company
    Israel has granted a U.S. company the first license to explore for oil and gas in the occupied Golan Heights, John Reed of the Financial Times reports.
    A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights.
    That geographic location will likely prove controversial…
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/srael-grants-first-golan-heights-oil-drilling-license-to-dick-cheney-linked-company/5347779

    whatever. we’re so enlightened, it’s all good and well.

  233. bbc were breathless with excitement over the following, but i noticed the Beeb guy choking on “tens” when he said “tens of thousands”…

    watch the video, only close-ups of what looks in moscow like a few hundred. also has the pic by Alexander Zemlianichenko that is being used to show “tens of thousands”. who knows when it was taken.

    Moscow protest draws tens of thousands
    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-12-24/russia-opposition-protests/52202792/1

  234. 16 March: IANS: Crimea referendum proceeds smoothly with high youth turnout: Observers
    Monitoring the referendum are 135 foreign observers from 23 countries and 1,240 local ones. The controversial vote also attracted some 2,500 journalists from around the world…
    “We have inspected 1,169 polling stations,” Xinhua quoted Ivan Abazher from the non-governmental Observer Council — Crimean Choice as saying.
    “We saw no violations or provocations. Voter activity in Crimea is unprecedented. Many young people have already come to the polls,” he said…
    A Russian monitor, Maksim Grigoryev from the Civic Chamber of Russia, said voters were going to polling stations as if it were a matter of life and death.
    He noted that even very old men and women and people with disabilities joined Sunday’s plebiscite.
    Pavel Chernev, another Bulgarian observer and also a member of parliament, described the ongoing referendum as “100 percent in line with European standards” in terms of the organisation and procedures.
    The Bulgarian lawmaker even noticed that a mobile ballot box has been used for people with advanced age…
    http://newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2014/03/16/281–Crimea-referendum-proceeds-smoothly-with-high-youth-turnout-Observers-.html

    16 March – Global Research: Stephen Lendman: Crimeans Vote on Joining Russia
    International observers from America, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria, Latvia and other countries came.
    So did European parliamentarians, international law experts, and 1,240 Crimean organization representatives. Human rights activists were involved.
    The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was invited. It declined…
    European Geopolitical Analysis Centre’s Mateusz Piskorski said observers are experienced in electoral monitoring.
    According to international standards, Crimean media, including television, abstained from campaigning for independence or joining Russia.
    At the same time, Crimeans were urged to vote. Nothing suggested which way. No pressure was applied. A Simferopol resident likely spoke for most others, saying:
    “We made our choice long ago. Ukraine has given us nothing, so we will try to live in Russia.”
    A Kerch resident called what’s happening in Ukraine “horrible. They won’t let us live, it’s clear.”
    Foreign journalists arrived in droves. A British reporter expressed surprise. Each taxi driver he asked gave “an approving nod when hearing the word ‘Russia.’ ”
    Other foreign journalists are surprised at how many cars display Russian flags. Popular sentiment overwhelmingly is pro-Russian…
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimeans-vote-on-joining-russia/5373673?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=crimeans-vote-on-joining-russia

  235. 16 March – VIDEO: BBC: As it happened: Crimea votes in referendum
    Election officials say 95.5% of voters have backed joining Russia in the referendum, after half of the ballots were counted…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26599776

    another job well done:

    16 March – (from The Independent) Patrick Cockburn: Three Years After Gaddafi, Libya Is Imploding Into Chaos and Violence
    Its government has no real power; militias are ever more entrenched, and now the state itself is under threat
    A striking feature of events in Libya in the past week is how little interest is being shown by leaders and countries which enthusiastically went to war in 2011 in the supposed interests of the Libyan people. President Obama has since spoken proudly of his role in preventing a “massacre” in Benghazi at that time. But when the militiamen, whose victory Nato had assured, opened fire on a demonstration against their presence in Tripoli in November last year, killing at least 42 protesters and firing at children with anti-aircraft machine guns, there was scarcely a squeak of protest from Washington, London or Paris…
    But the Nato powers that overthrew him – and by some accounts gave the orders to kill him – did not do so because he was a tyrannical ruler. It was rather because he pursued a quirkily nationalist policy backed by a great deal of money which was at odds with western policies in the Middle East. It is absurd to imagine that if the real objective of the war was to replace Gaddafi with a secular democracy that the West’s regional allies in the conflict should be theocratic absolute monarchies in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. This is equally true of Western and Saudi intervention in Syria which has the supposed intention of replacing President Bashar al-Assad with a freely elected government that will establish the rule of law.
    Libya is imploding…
    http://www.unz.com/pcockburn/three-years-after-gaddafi-libya-is-imploding-into-chaos-and-violence/

  236. Flight MH370

    17 Mar, 2014 - 5:52 am

    [Banned from commenting]

  237. 17 March – Reuters – Mike Collett-White/Alastair MacDonald: Moscow wins Crimea vote, West readies sanctions
    Crimea’s Moscow-backed leaders declared a 96-percent vote in favour of quitting Ukraine and annexation by Russia in a referendum Western powers said was illegal and will bring immediate sanctions…
    With three-quarters of Sunday’s votes counted in Crimea, a Black Sea peninsula that is home to 2 million people, 95.7 percent had supported annexation by Russia, chief electoral official Mikhail Malyshev, was quoted as saying by local media.
    Turnout was 83 percent, he added – a high figure given that many who opposed the move had said they would boycott the vote…
    The risk of Europe becoming locked in a damaging spiral of economic retaliation with Moscow, from which it buys much of its energy, depended on Russia, Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans said ahead of the EU meeting in Brussels: “I would do anything possible to avoid sanctions, because I believe everybody will suffer if we get into sanctions,” he said…
    There were pro-Russian rallies in several Ukrainian cities on Sunday, including one in Kharkiv where protesters burned books at a Ukrainian cultural centre where two pro-Russian activists were shot dead on Friday in a fight with members of Right Sector, a nationalist group that emerged during battles with riot police amidst the pro-European protests in Kiev.
    In Donetsk, heart of the industrial east where a Ukrainian nationalist was killed in a clash last week, some welcomed the outcome in Crimea and hoped they too might vote to join Russia.
    “This is a total victory. A 100 percent win,” said one man who gave his name as Roman. “We here in Donetsk support Crimea. We don’t support the Kiev authorities that are ruling today.”…
    The Interior Ministry, possibly responding to reported threats by nationalist militants to attack pipelines carrying Russian gas exports to the EU across Ukraine, said its forces had taken control of the country’s vital pipeline network…
    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/ukraine-crisis-crimea-referendum-idINDEEA2G00620140317?feedType=RSS&feedName=everything&virtualBrandChannel=11709
    (Additional reporting by Aleksandar Vasovic and Andrew Osborn in Simferopol, Ron Popeski, Richard Balmforth and Natalia Zinets in Kiev, Lina Kushch in Donetsk, Roberta Rampton and Matt Spetalnick in Washington, Adrian Croft and Jan Strupczewski in Brussels and Lidia Kelly and Timothy Heritage in Moscow; Writing by Alastair Macdonald; Editing by Mohammad Zargham)

    Alastair desperately looking for a more “martial mood”:

    17 March – Reuters – Alastair MacDonald: As Russia closes in, Ukrainians fearful, defiant
    “Us fascists?” asked Valentin. “They’re the fascists,” he said, likening the “referendum at gunpoint” he expects to annex Crimea to the invasion he was part of as a young conscript, when Soviet leaders claimed to have been invited by Czechoslovakia to lend “fraternal help” against a purported right-wing plot…
    As shown by Crimean voters and eastern protesters seeking autonomy, many Ukrainians feel cut off from a Russian homeland by arbitrary post-Soviet borders. But they are in a minority, albeit concentrated in big, industrial cities near Russia…
    For old soldier Valentin, Putin’s action could “backfire”: “He’s pushing us into the arms of the EU,” he said, echoing a widespread view in Kiev after two uneasy decades trying to balance relations between the Kremlin and the West.
    Svetlana, visiting from Poltava in the east, blamed Putin and corrupt Ukrainian leaders for the situation: “It’s just terrible that people are talking about war. It’s worrying.”…
    A poll last week confirmed that few Ukrainians – about 3 percent – want to go to war to defend their territory, including Crimea. But appeals for support for the armed forces, including troops blockaded in bases in Crimea, and last week’s formation of a new National Guard are contributing to a more martial mood…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/us-ukraine-crisis-war-idUSBREA2G03220140317
    (Editing by Ron Popeski)

  238. CanSpeccy

    I think it is very probable that, with a proper vote under proper conditions, as you put it – ie a genuine debate with all sides able to put their views and no armed intimidation – Crimea would vote to join Russia. I also think that would have been a good outcome. See my first post on this subject.

    But I certainly do not think that result would have brought a 97per cent majority – exactly Hitler’s plebiscite in Austria – in a region where abut 40% of the population is not Russian. I am amazed that none of the Putinistas exhibit no shame at the 97% claim.

  239. Oddie

    The secret state of the US brain-washed Obama from an early age to become the credible neo-colonial black leader to re-take Africa into colonial ownership. Chaos under Al Qaida is the plan, to allow Africom a platform for legitimate invasion. The US doesn’t care about a little Islamisation, it has its own program of born-again Christianity and it wants people to be absorbed with religion while it re-conquers the wealth of the African continent.

    Did the West not use the Arab in the Carribean slave trade as an excuse to rescue Africa from the predations of Islam? The Arab slave trade to the Ottoman Empire was even more brutal, more lethal in the transportation, and male slaves were castrated before exportation because Islam does not permit human mutilation.

    The West knows how to prepare its workers, by torturing them in the cells of dictators like Gaddafi, and it knows how to utilise them after their release to terrorise their fellow Muslims.
    This crap has been going on since time. You think they don’t know, the UKUSIS, how to get their hands on African land?

  240. Macky,

    Nobody has been more outspokenly critical of the West than I. I think that Chomsky’s quotation is absolutely right, and not only do I subscribe to it, I very actively live by it. I don’t think it is anything to do with self-hatred for the left to criticize the West.

    What is very, very wrong is for the intellectually challenged to conclude that the West is bad, therefore anybody who is not the West is good. That is a logical fallacy so childish it is difficult to take you seriously.

    What if you go back to my original post and tell me what is wrong about the observations I make about Putin’s Russia?

  241. Craig

    As I’m sure you know, many religious zealots started as Communists, because it promises change of ownership and the possibility of personal profiteering. Then they discovered that the combination of twisting the meaning of ancient texts and getting paid by the neo=conservative, neo-colonials was more lucrative, safer, and more the way the wind was blowing.

    So they switched, and they mock Socialism, as you do, in favour of “”neo-Liberalism”". If Socialism was to return to profitability for them, they would swing back to Socialism. The political mind is only interested in personal power and gain. I find this quibbling about the rights and wrongs of politics rather annoying. Politics is power, and right now the money is with the Neo-Cons.

    Question is: Are you, Craig Murray, involved with them? In the betting sense I mean. It appears to many of your readers that you have changed sides from standing against the NeoLiberal cause, to standing with them.

  242. Craig; “What is very, very wrong is for the intellectually challenged to conclude that the West is bad, therefore anybody who is not the West is good. That is a logical fallacy so childish it is difficult to take you seriously.”

    With due respect Craig, nobody, let alone “many”, are actually holding up Putin as a role model of perfection !

    Are you not familiar with the concept of “The Lesser Evil”, or “The Greater Good” ?

    “What if you go back to my original post and tell me what is wrong about the observations I make about Putin’s Russia?”

    Maybe not much, but not really inclined to take the trouble if you cannot respond to the points I have already made to your original Post; in fact I can only assume that you haven’t seen it, otherwise you wouldn’t have just made that childish fallacy that you yourself project on others, as my comment about you imagining people “admiring his warts” had pointed out;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/the-wrong-referendum-the-wrong-saviour/#comment-446358

  243. Herbie 12.05 a.m. Thanks for that video of the peaceful villages turning back a Ukrainian military column. As it says “Nobody wants war and bloodshed”.

    “Мирные жители маленького городка остановили военную колонну и повернули её назад. Никто не хочет войны и крови.”

  244. In fact Craig, you should know that Al Qaida is a religious front for taking land and power from the neo-Cons. The deal is, we Neo-colonisers get the big stuff, the ports, the Libyan oil-wells, banks, money, investments etc and we provide the rain of hell fire of modern industrial weaponry on the civilian populations; you the self-proclaimed defenders of Islam/ political profiteermongers in disguise get the land, the people, the bits and bobs of jails, police stations etc and you provide the moral creed, because the whole world knows that we have none.

    We are bankrupt morally so you provide the moral cause. I scratch your back you scratch my balls. No more ticks. Not just fuck the EU, fuck the whole damn Islamic and non-Islamic world.

  245. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 8:24 am

    “Putinistas”

    Uncle Craig, are you trolling your own blog?

    I see plenty here who tirelessly point out the fact that what has happened in Ukraine is a US coup. While they may get called names, even by you, the evidence, in the form of words from Nuland’s and Ashton’s own mouths, is widely available and cannot be ignored forever.

    While no effort is spared by some posters to vilify Putin, I see few signs of true “Putinistas” here. Those who you seek to insult seem to me simply to consider the rights of Ukrainians, including the Russian-speaking population in Ukraine, to have been grossly and criminally disregarded and betrayed by both Ukrainian putchists and their Western handlers. The same can be said regarding the large numbers of the original Maidan protesters who, while opposing the corruption of the ousted government and maybe a little naive regarding the EU, do not deserve to have unelected ultra-right ministers foisted on them.

    Using Dad’s name-calling tactics will not persuade anyone who cares do look beyond the threadbare propaganda. Why you do not address the Nuland and Ashton recordings? These are surely genuine conspirators, caught in the act that set the scene for Crimea’s secession. Does pointing this out make me a “Putinista” or conspiracy theorist?

  246. the pics on this page allegedly show members in Kiev voting multiple times in the vote to ouster Yanukovych, even tho each member has a single ID card. this inclus Yats. i think i’ve understood that much, but someone might be able to translate or add more detail:

    http://hinter-der-fichte.blogspot.fr/2014/03/ukraine-die-kernluge-von-der-legitimen.html

  247. Sofia

    Have addressed those points ad nauseam on earlier threads. I think Nuland’s vile blabberings had very little effect and you overrate the capacity of western diplomats and security services to affect events on the ground. There have been a great many CIA-backed coups, Egypt being a recent example, but with that and most like Nkrumah in Ghana or Allende in Chile they operate trough the military. Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect.

  248. Macky,

    Yes. If you bother to read my post, you will see that I believe Putin is the greater evil. That is precisely the point I am asking you to address, and you refuse. What is wrong in my portrayal of Putin’s Russia?

  249. A pretty even handed post from Craig here; he is right to point out that, despite the hasty referendum, vote later on ,in a less charged atmosphere, would also likely result in a resounding vote for reunion with Russia.

    He is also right to call out Putin on his contempt for the ‘international community’ and ‘international law’ over his actions in Ukraine. Hell, his arrogance in this regard even bears comparison with Israeli and US disregard for the same, when it suits them!

    An excellent thread as well; Oddie, thanks for the links, and Res Diss, thanks for your pathetic attempt at 08.51 yesterday to resurrect the ‘domino theory’ from the dustbin of history- I really enjoyed that.

  250. 93% at last count. Rule of thumb: any referendum where one side gets above 70% is likely bent. Because people are rarely that much in agreement … about anything really. Oh I suppose there are excepetions.

    Still, you have to laugh at the West and its ‘refusal to recognize’ the result. We are like a small child who refuses to recognise that the ice-cream actually belonged to our younger sibling. Just because we think it, doesn’t make it so. The Crimean referendum was, well, let’s say it was equally as bent as the Ukranian revolution. We may quibble about the ‘equally’, but I’m being bi-partisan here.

    Honestly? I think we’ve just played right into Putin’s hands. One might almost argue that the stitch up occurred in private (Syria talks anyone?) and everything has been for show. I don’t, finally, believe this, because our foreign policy is way too stupid to be this devious, and reckon it’s much more likely that once the Ukranian revolution occurred, nobody in the West really gave much thought to what would happen in Crimea. When I say ‘nobody’ I really mean ‘nobody with influence’. Doubtless lots of intelligent people thought it through carefully, it’s just that these lunatic neocons don’t really listen to intelligent people. Indeed, intelligent people seem to get sacked, demoted, sidelined or – if in doubt – dealt with in more sinister ways. Wonder why everything goes tits up so often? Hm.

  251. Господин Евгений

    “The video you keep banging on about is a propaganda masterpiece, inviting us to jump to lots of conclusions based on a few isolated factoids taken out of current and historical context. Ignorami like you make the perfect target audience. Your argument in support of this video boils down to this – MSM lied to us about Iraq, ergo MSM always lie. A classic non-sequitur.”

    Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! The video does not show isolated facts taken out of “current and historical context”. It shows that fascists have taken over Kiev, that Victoria Nugent does not want the public to know this, so she advises that Klitschko should not have a deputy prime-minister role, and likewise the Svoboda Fascist, anti-semitic and xenophobic godfather, Oleh Tyannybok, must also stay out of the limelight. Therefore the lawyer, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, must be the front man. Although he too is a Fascist, his track-record in Fascism is not as well-known. Watch it and argue the facts. Otherwise everybody on the blog will know who the real ignoramus is. By their fruits shall ye know them.

    By the way, I bang on about it because none of it has not been covered by our media. The media lied about Iraq, they lie about the situation in Ukraine. The war on Islam was created to allow for this perpetual lying. I do not blame the newsreaders, they have families to keep, lives to live. You need to wake up Господин Евгений.

  252. John Goss,

    Are you implying that Klitschko is a fascist? On what evidence? I should say I know very little about the man other than that he was considered very bright for a boxer (!), but I don’t think I have heard him called a fascist before.

  253. Guano

    Am I a neo-liberal? Did you read the post?

    “For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.”

    Neo-liberals say that kind of thing, of course.

    “Anybody who isn’t the West must be a good guy. Everyone who doesn’t agree must be a neo-liberal, or as was above suggested, mentally ill.” I should be quite interested to know what ideological background some of the strange commenters here come from (not you, Guano, I know your viewpoint of course).

  254. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:25 am

    For lefties everyone in Ukraine is a fascist now. Shows how effective Putin’s propaganda is. There is a blame for western media which discredited itself, but why do lefties not question putin’s sources? Why do they take everything in putin’s sources as to be true, while in fact many Russian intellectuals many of whom could not for a second be abused as Russian democrat (yes yes democrat is abusive word in Russian) question putin’s propaganda vs Ukraine.

    Blind western lefties at their best.

    And referendum in Crimea is as expected 97% despite the fact that over 40% of population did not participate.

  255. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:29 am

    It is fascinating to watch how every details of Maidan being investigated with huge leftie magnifying glass BUT none of them have brain cells large enough to acknowledge that so called Pro-Russian self defence forces were in fact Russian military personnel.

    After this mad lefties discredited themselves in my eyes. Their extremely biased approach to everything makes it impossible to put even little trust in their words.

  256. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:35 am

    Crimean Tatars boycotted the referendum. Probably wrong tactical move, time will show.

    It will be unfortunate to see how long it will take before they made forgotten wrongdoings of Russians on them. Centuries of abuse and decades of genocidal approach that Crimean Tatars suffered from Russians.

    Yet another aspect of Russian policy in Crimea being hugely ignored by mad western lefties. And the same people will build mega conspiracy theories on something that is not so obvious but where western powers are involved and will ignore mountain of historical and cultural evidences which threatens their biased anti-western (by proxy) pro Russian approach.

    Shame on you mad lefties.

  257. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:43 am

    Uncle Craig. Thanks.

    “Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect.” …..except that Nuland suggested Yats as PM, and so it came to pass. She also suggested Sherry as the UN patsy, and so it came to pass, etc. …..all $5 billoin worth.

    If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and has a collar round it’s neck that says “dog”, how come you believe it’s Bambi?

  258. Craig. I resent the Putinista tag being applied. Same style as the trolls here who have labelled us Murrayistas!

    Is John Pilger (another hero of mine) a Putinista too for writing this?

    The Forgotten Coup – How the Godfather Rules from Canberra to Kiev
    By John Pilger

    Washington’s role in the fascist putsch against an elected government in Ukraine will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore the historical record. Since 1945, dozens of governments, many of them democracies, have met a similar fate, usually with bloodshed.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37970.htm

  259. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:47 am

    In all the Crimea shenanigans western lefties “surprisingly” unnoticed that Russian Duma passed the law making russophobia a criminal offence. Now Russia is multi-ethnic federal state with dozen of autonomous republics in 8 of which Russians themselves are minority.

    Now the question is why making only russophobia a criminal offence which interprets as when Tatars or Chechens say or do something that can be interpreted as russophobia they can be imprisoned. And when Tatars or Chechens are offended or worse killed (this is widely happening in Russia) it is not a problem.

    Some hard-liners in Duma even suggested to use new anti-russophobia legislation in cases when people (even ethnic Russians) display disagreement with government polices (which according to them) directed to the defence of Russian interests.

    Not sure about you but I feel that we have witnessed similar laws in Germany in 1930th?

  260. doug scorgie

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:54 am

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 – 8:32 am

    “Spot on, Craig, I’d agree with 95% of what you say.”

    What is the 5% of Craig’s post you disagree with Habbabkuk?

  261. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:54 am

    Mary

    Those who do not question putin’s propaganda sources and mirror everything that these sources are proposing (fascist in Ukraine, Russians are under threat, Crimea is Russian, f..ck international law, f…ck Crimean Tatars, f..ck Ukrainians etc) are all putinista.

    In the last 3 weeks there was nothing objectively reported in Russian media, with many such links provided here as references without questioning truth. Everything from Russian military presence cover-up (which none of the mad lefties has accepted), to threat to ethnic Russian was made by putin’s propaganda machine.

    It is huge shame that very people who questioned intervention to Iraq and cover ups in Libya and Syria are today so BLIND to the cover up of truth by Putin. This make me very angry. I cannot believe that western people so ignorant when it comes to former soviet union.

  262. Mary

    You are hardly contributing to the argument. Despite the title Pilger’s article says nothing whatever about the Ukraine.

  263. Craig; “Yes. If you bother to read my post, you will see that I believe Putin is the greater evil. That is precisely the point I am asking you to address, and you refuse. What is wrong in my portrayal of Putin’s Russia?”

    Wow ! Then again it’s been obvious for some time now that for you, Putin is the New Hitler !

    So despite saying you agreeing with the Chomsky quote, in fact you don’t agree with all of it, as he mentions that the US “happens to be the larger component of international violence”

    So in all serious, you are claiming that Putin’s Russia is not only comparable to the greatest & most powerful Empire in history, but that is actually even a greater evil ! I think you will find that most rational people, even in the West (!), will find the first part of this totally absurd, and the second part, delusional to the point of questioning either your sanity or your motives.

    Indeed the US always tops the Polls in surveys rating countries that people feel are most dangerous & a threat to a peaceful world. You only have to look at its record of non-stop continuous war against the Third World,(& even nefarious intervention in other Western countries), and then try to match it with a comparable Russian one;

    http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

    This partial limited list doesn’t really convey the true evil involved for the tens of millions perished souls, or the perhaps irreversible cost to the our ecosystem. Yes millions also died under Soviet era repression, etc, and there is currently still the War on Terror like campaigns against various separatist/extremist movements,but the fact that you chose not to differentiate between an incredibly active, ruthless, rampantly & aggressive expanding Empire, that is constantly provoking by pushing right up against Russia’s borders, to Putin’s reactive attempts at defending itself and its interests against US expansion, also speaks volumes about your position.

    The US is of course, the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons, and really has crazed people in positions of power that actually advocate that not only is a nuclear war winnable, but that the US should launch a preemptive nuclear strike to ensure that it’s winnable !

    I could go on & on, but let me address your point about your portrayal of Russia under Putin;

    “But every single one of those things is true of Putin’s Russia, and in fact it is much worse. Wealth inequality is even more extreme. Toleration of dissent and of different lifestyles even less evident, the space for debate even more constricted, the contempt for international law still more pronounced. Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran. The consequence can be an accidental good, in that Putin has thwarted western military plans. But that is not in any sense from a desire for public good, and if Putin can himself get away with military force he does. “

    Each & every point you make here, can be countered, questioned or refuted, but there’s not even the need to do so, because even if every point was 100% correct, the colossal economic & military power that is the US, that is a law unto itself, with its worldwide network of military bases and vassal states, and has been on a military roll since the breakup of the USSR, smashing country after country, moving closer and closer to Russia itself, is rightly & clearly considered by the majority of the planet’s population as thee greater evil, despite all that you & a few similarly irrational people may try to argue.

  264. Craig:
    “I am not opposed to self-determination for the people of Crimea…”

    Nor am I Craig but the US/EU/UK/Kiev is.

    “There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.”

    I am being realistic Craig and I do not support what Russia has done but you have to look at what the west has done also.

    The west does not care about the people of Ukraine any more than Putin.

    Kiev and the west would not allow a calm and peaceful atmosphere to develop through to the end of the year. You must know that deep down.

    The Crimean Tatars are boycotting the poll now and would probably boycott a poll at the end of the year, backed by the west, to make it seem, to the outside world, fraudulent and illegitimate.

    The west would supply money and logistics to the anti-Russia opposition and stir-up trouble and create division which will inevitably result in death and catalyse another “regime change” this time in Crimea.

    The poll today or a poll at the end of the year, if it took place, would likely have the same effect i.e. a majority for union with Russia.

    If Putin’s Russia is as bad as you say why would a majority in Crimea vote for closer ties?

    “In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest.”

    Is that not true of the UK?

    “For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.”

    Ah! Some balance at last.

    Perhaps the above paragraph is the 5% of your post Craig that Habbabkuk disagrees with.

    By the way, disparaging people that disagree with you (deluded lefties, Putinistas) does not help your arguments and damages your credibility.

  265. Klitschko claiming to be a democrat is a bit like Tony Blair claiming to be a socialist. Because of his boxing skills, (I would not wish to get in a ring with him) he has become feted in the west and no doubt experienced the best of western hospitality, but not the reality, and may genuinely wish to be part of Europe and see Ukraine changed on western models, but I would not trust his website http://klichko.org/en/ any more than I would trust the website of any politician. In fairness I cannot find any direct reference to Klitschko being a fascist and withdraw that label, though he does associate with fascists, and that taints him in my mind. He also associates with Victoria Nuland, and that further taints him. Anonymous Ukraine has downloaded hundreds of emails from the UDAR headquarters so if Klitschko was making Fascist statements I am sure somebody would have picked this up.

    We are thankful to Anonymous Ukraine for averting false flag events.

    http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_14/Operation-Independence-Continues-Anonymous-exposes-US-invasion-plans-in-Ukraine-7517/

  266. My comment earlier reads as if Putin is a hero of mine. He is most definitely not.

    ~~~

    Conjunction Try reading Pilger’s opening paragraph and about MI5 activities. Do you think that we have not been involved in the Ukraine putsch?

  267. BrianFujisan

    Mother Agnes Mariam will get more respect from Al Qaida for her obvious faith and courage, than from a western secular, hand-wringing audience who have their fingers in their ears about all religious things.

  268. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:30 am

    A Node

    “As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.””
    __________________

    Thanks for that good laugh, A Node! May I take it that you agree with Stadler that transparent voting boxes tend to ensure fair and free voting? I imagine that most of the voters did not avail themselves of private voting booths either.

  269. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:34 am

    Conjunction10 16 am

    “Mary
    You are hardly contributing to the argument. Despite the title Pilger’s article says nothing whatever about the Ukraine.”
    Aside, that is, from the opening sentence… “Washington’s role in the fascist putsch against an elected government in Ukraine will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore the historical record.”
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37970.htm

    Look. Uncle Craig has the excuse of his advanced age and a lifetime of Foreign Office conditioning.

    Dad has the excuse of…well…erm…Dr Bullstrode said I wasn’t to tell a soul!

    What’s your excuse?

    As for Mary hardly contributing….you’re new around here aren’t you?

  270. @Mary, the story of whistleblower Pilger mentions, Christopher Boyce, was made into a powerful & dramatic 1979 film called “The Falcon and the Snowman”; he served 24 years after being convicted as a spy, only released in 2002.

  271. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:43 am

    Mr Scorgie to Craig:

    “By the way, disparaging people that disagree with you (deluded lefties, Putinistas) does not help your arguments and damages your credibility.”
    ____________________

    Are you a pot or a kettle?

  272. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:52 am

    Hurbi

    You’ve referred admiringly to something calling itself the “Eurasian Organisation for Democracy and Elections (EODE), which apparently “monitored” the Crimea referendum.

    I wonder if your admiration extends to the ability to identify for us the members of its Board of Directors and its “Scientific Council”?

    For some reason I’m unable to understand, the EODE’s voluminous homepage is silent on this question.

    Cheers, Comrade!

  273. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:54 am

    “As for Mary hardly contributing….you’re new around here aren’t you?”

    _____________________

    Or, like you, perhaps he’s been around for quite a while and just changed his handle?

  274. No Sofia I am not new, I have been around for many years as an occasional contributor.

    Mary I don’t have anything like as much certainty about what is going on as most contributors seem to have. Nevertheless I have read this and other Ukraine threads with a fair amount of diligence and thank Craig for hosting an important debate.

    I am not on either side but I especially value the contributions of Resident Dissident who fought a lone battle for a few hours and Uzbek as well as Craig himself.

    We live most of us in the west and are painfully reminded on a daily basis of the corruption and atmosphere of doublethink that has become normal in the last two decades around here.

    But Uzbek reminds me that I for one have no first hand experience of life in the once Soviet Union and he makes me quite glad that is the case.

    It now seems likely that Putin will swallow the Crimea and we are hearing more threats about the rest of Ukraine.

    As to your question in some way it seems likely we have been ‘involved’ in the takeover of government but then so have all players.

    Everyone talks about the Russian or Western influence. What about the Ukrainians? They like many countries between Russia and the West have been political footballs for generations. I am interested in what they want and I suspect that their influence has not been as minimal as what many of the Nuland conspiracy theorists are making out.

  275. i don’t think any of us know how the 40% of Crimea’s Tatars who reportedly voted, voted. other nations have their own complex agendas. RFE journo – hardly a Russophile – has some interesting points to make:

    15 March: Aljazeera: Crimea crisis: The Tatarstan factor
    Why did politicians from Kazan pay frequent visits to Crimea recently?
    by Ildar Gabidullin
    (Ildar Gabidullin is a journalist from Tatarstan, currently fulfilling Vaclav Havel Journalism Fellowship in Radio Free Europe’s Tatar-Bashkir service.)
    Maxim Edwards
    (Maxim Edwards is a journalist and student from the UK. He has worked in Tatarstan and Armenia, and writes on inter-ethnic and inter-religious relations in the post-Soviet space.)
    In Kazan itself, local authorities organised, on March 5, a solidarity rally with Crimea and in support for the official line on Crimea. Popular cliches from Russian state media (as well as speaker of the Tatarstan parliament Farit Mukhametshin) were in attendance, decrying fascism and banderovtsy in Ukraine and criticising the Yatsenyuk government in Kiev…
    Two journalists in Simferopol attempted to coax President Minnikhanov into explaining his visits to Crimea, but like other Tatarstan officials, he remained inscrutable, saying solely that the Volga and Crimean Tatars were brotherly nations. Vice-President of the Crimean Parliament Rustam Temirgaliev (of Volga Tatar descent) congratulated Minnikhanov on his enormously helpful role in negotiations with Crimean Tatar leaders, guaranteeing to the Crimean Tatar community that their cultural and linguistic rights would be respected…
    So what will be the result of the Kremlins’ charm offensive? Minnikhanov has been put in a difficult situation. Volga Tatars are first and foremost Russian citizens, exposed to the same views on the Crimean crisis as other Russian citizens. Yet some are not without a keen sense of ethnic and linguistic solidarity with other members of the wider Tatar world. Moscow would certainly risks angering other Muslim and Turkic peoples (not to mention Turkey itself), were it to repress what is a troublesome ethnic minority in order to achieve its goals in the Crimea…
    Whatever Kazan’s motivations, Moscow’s are further-reaching. Crimean Tatar leaders may lose a little sleep over the motivations of their new friends from Tatarstan. “It is clearly part of a larger plan” remarked current leader of the Crimean Tatar Mejlis, Refat Chubarov, in a March 3 interview with Fontanka:
    “As a national custom, we always accept guests; we met with them at their request. But we asked why their arrival coincided with that of Russian troops. They say that they’ve always wanted to come, but they could not have predicted such a situation. We asked them, next time they visit, to please let us know in advance.”
    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/03/crimea-crisis-tatarstan-factor-2014314143349496558.html

    11 March: Al-Monitor: Vitaly Naumkin: Russia manages Turkey, Crimean Tatars in Ukraine
    About 250,000 Tatars live in the Crimea, around 12-13% of the overall population of which roughly 60% are ethnic Russians (80% of all Crimeans are Russian-speakers). The present-day number of Tatars in the Crimea is a bit more than the number of those who lived there in 1944, when all Tatars and several other ethnic groups were deported following Stalin’s orders…
    But the majority of the Crimean Tatars now live in Turkey…
    The Turkish leadership is clearly trying to simultaneously pursue two goals. The first is to preserve and further develop friendly cooperative relations with Moscow and avoid anything that could harm them, given the exclusively high interdependence between the two states. The second is to gain support and trust of the Turks of Crimean origin who are sympathetic to the aspirations of their kin in the Crimea (leave aside the existing baseless speculations about Ankara’s pan-Turkic or expansionist designs related to the Crimean crisis)…
    Despite Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu’s statements, Turkey in fact might even be interested in Russia’s reunion with the Crimea given possible new economic opportunities for businesses there.
    Moscow’s concern in striking a deal with the Crimean Tatars is also related to the growing influence of extremist networks there. Hizb at-Tahrir al-Islami, banned in Russia, has been quite active in the peninsula. A number of Tatars from the Belogorsk region have been recruited to fight against President Bashar al-Assad’s forces in Syria; Abdulla Jepparov from the Sary-Su village has been killed there, and his compatriots are still part of the Syrian conflict. A Tatar interlocutor told me that the mercenaries are first brought to Lebanon for training…
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/03/russia-crimea-ukraine-turkey-tartars.html

  276. Craig have you joined Hilary Clintons Neo-con campaign?
    Putin as Hitler?what a load of BULL!
    Its is the CIA backed coup in the western Ukraine that is full of Neo-Nazis!
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554
    It is the western backed Nazis that where shooting its own people and blaming the Russians!
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-democratic-coup-detat-killing-civilians-as-a-pretext-for-regime-change/5370705
    It is the CIA backed Neo-Nazi usurpers that is threatening Russia with nuclear weapons
    And exactly how many US navy vessels are currently sitting in the black sea?
    Ukraine has suffered a western sponcered Neo-Nazi coup!
    They tried to ban the Russian language and make Russians second class citizens
    The threat of attack against the Russian population WAS VERY REAL!!
    The REAL NAZIS behaind this COUP are just as obvious
    Newly appointed/imposed Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk announced on monday that his government plans to sell Naftogaz Ukrainy, The national oil and gas company of the Ukraine.
    He is a millionaire former banker who served as economy minister, foreign minister and parliamentary speaker before Yanukovych took office in 2010. He is a member of Yulie Tymoshenko’s Fatherland Party. Prior to the revolution cooked up by the State Department and executed by ultra-nationalist street thugs, Tymoshenko was incarcerated for embezzlement and other crimes against the people of Ukraine. Now she will be part of the installed government, same as she was after the last orchestrated coup, the Orange Revolution. ”Yats” will deliver Ukraine to the international bankers.
    http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2014/02/central-banker-appointed-as-prime-minister-of-ukraine-2600974.html
    Sorry Craig but your post is a Neo-liberal pile of war mongering anti-Russian pro-Nazi tat!!
    I certainly do NOT support Putinism BUT Putin is not a war criminal like Obama ,Cameron , Clinton ,Bush ,Blair etc etc etc.
    Putin saved Russia from Boris Yeltsins and his oligarchs vodka soaked CIA backed asset stripping sale of Russia.Russia is a lot better under Putin ,than if it was still under western controlled Yeltsin!
    Russia has an agreement with the democratically elected Ukraine(NOT the NEO-NAZI coup supportters) to have troops in the Ukraine
    THERE IS NOTHING ILLEGAL OR NAZI GOING ON IN RUSSIA!
    THERE IS A LOT ILLEGAL AND A LOT OF NAZIS IN THE WESTERN BACKED COUP!!!
    craig you seem to be striving to find soemthing beautiful in a Neo Nazi coup!!!

  277. 16 March: Itar-Tass: About 40% of Crimean Tatars take part in Crimean referendum – Prime Minister
    Crimean premier Sergei Aksyonov said on Sunday about 40% of Crimean Tatars had taken part in the referendum on Crimea’s accession to Russia as a constituent entity.
    More than a half of the 5,000-strong community of Crimean Tatars in the main naval port city of Sevastopol took part in Sunday’s referendum on determining the future status of Crimea, Lenur Usmanov, a spokesman for the community told Itar-Tass.
    “The data we have indicates that more than 50% of Crimean Tatars living in Sevastopol came to the polling stations Sunday,” he said. “We also have the information that most of them voted in favor of reunification with Russia.”
    Usmanov said the turnout of Tatars at the polls would have been bigger had it not been for the position taken by the Mejlis (Council of Representatives) of the Crimean Tatar people…
    “We have the information that Mejlis representatives would stop people at the doors of the polling stations and would try to discourage them from voting but the Crimean Tatar community of Sevastopol finds actions of this kind to be unfruitful,” he said…
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723832

    17 March: GlobalResearch: Lionel Reynolds: Crimea Rejects the US-NATO Sponsored Neoliberal Neo-Nazi Ukrainian Regime
    At the very least, one can certainly conclude that Crimeans are emphatically more enthusiastic about ‘Hitler-Putin’ than, say, the USA is about Obama, or the UK about Cameron…
    The western controlled-media has made much of the ‘Crimean Tatars’ in the lead up to the referendum, thrilled that it had found an indigenous non-European population that feared Russian rule and with a genuine grievance against the old Soviet system, a scenario well suited to play on western cultural sensibilities and therefore obfuscate the underlying geopolitical and imperial agenda behind western support for the neo-liberal/nazi Ukrainian junta.
    However, quite apart from the spurious claims, a significant number of Tatars (though not the ones interviewed in CNN/BBC coverage during the lead up to the vote) also rejected rule by the neo-liberal/nazi regime…
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimea-rejects-the-us-nato-sponsored-neoliberal-neo-nazi-ukrainian-regime/5373738

  278. Yes. What do the Ukrainians want, asks the lurker made flesh.

    The simple answer is that the neocons don’t care.

    Baroness Ashton made this quite clear when she told the remaining protestors, confused that they’d they’d been given more corruption and fascism when they wanted democracy, to go home and shut up.

    Job done, you see.

    ==================

    Pawns of the world, UNITE!

    used…

    Pawns of the world, GOODNIGHT!

  279. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 12:15 pm

    Conjunction. 11 56am

    “…has not been as minimal as what many of the Nuland conspiracy theorists are making out.”

    WHF? I thought the thing that defines “conspiracy theorists” is that they see conspiracies where none exist. Nuland’s mouth let the world know that she was conspiring to engineer regime change. How can those who point this out be theorists of any kind? Seems like they’re “factists” to me.

    mus get out in the spring sunshine

  280. “I am not on either side but I especially value the contributions of Resident Dissident who fought a lone battle for a few hours and Uzbek as well as Craig himself.”

    That sentence certainly does tend to pigeon hole you somewhat? I must be one of your Nuland conspiracy theorists because she, on behalf of the US, wants to do to Ukraine, what was done to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, leaving behind a countries in turmoil which were much better off without US/NATO intervention. The Anonymous Ukraine emails to create false flag events, which I linked details of in my last comment, are crucial evidence against US plans for the region, and Nugent herself would “Fuck the EU”. Well I happen to live here in Europe and would rather not be fucked!

  281. I’m not quite sure why some think Putin is a leftie or communist.

    In terms of political philosophy he’s quite obviously a Conservative.

    Paleo rather than neo, of course.

  282. Cuthulan,

    Aaah, but there is the problem. You say you don’t like Putin but he’s certainly not a war criminal. You plainly either don’t know, or don’t care, about Chechnya and Dagestan.

    The problem with people like you, Cuthulan, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Bush and Blair, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support.

  283. @Anode

    “The Crimean referendum was fully in line with international standards, its results should be recognised both in Ukraine and western countries, Austrian member of the European Parliament Johann Stadler said at the final press-conference of international observers on Sunday.

    Stadler [....] stressed that while he watched the voting he did not see any irregularities, such as putting pressure on voters, for example. As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.”

    That will be the Johann Stadler who is a member of the fascist party founded by Haider – another link to the Austrian Anschluss vote. There were also representatives of the Hungarian fascist party Jobbik among the observers – one of who was quoted as saying that they had to discourage our own odious fascist Nick Griffin from taking up his invitation to observe. And the Ukrainians are the only ones with a fascist problem?

    Ballot boxes were transparent so that international observers could see there were no manipulations – what planet are you living on!

  284. ESLO

    100% correct. The Polish guy on Russia Today from the “observers” was also a paid up fascist.

  285. In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.

  286. “Therefore the lawyer, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, must be the front man. Although he too is a Fascist, his track-record in Fascism is not as well-known.”

    Perhaps that might be because he doesn’t have one. Will you get it into your thick head that it is possible for Ukrainians to oppose Yanukovych and Russian interference in their country with being a fascist – and that your thinking that they are incapable of acting on their own behalf and initiative without the help of outside powers is quite frankly verging on racism.

  287. Mary; “Craig. I resent the Putinista tag being applied. Same style as the trolls here who have labelled us Murrayistas!

    Same style derived from the same mentality.

    Craig; “In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP”

    Pretty low Craig; is it sometime you felt in your water ? For real racist sentiment try looking at older quotes of those who are backing your Ukraine position.

    (“Putinistas” again ? and after Mary asked you so nicely)

  288. Johann Stadler and his politics are irrelevant to the point of my comment. I allowed his words to answer RD’s question:
    “Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??”

    I can see why transparent ballot boxes would help prevent vote rigging – it would be obvious if someone tried to post more than one paper, for example. I can’t see how transparent boxes could be used to pressure people into voting a particular way, as you and RD seem to imply. If the electors fold their voting paper before posting it, nobody can see who they’ve voted for.

    I’d be grateful to you and/or Resident Dissident for explaining how transparent ballot boxes could aid electoral fraud.

  289. sorry, above addressed to ESLO

  290. ESLO at 1.14 p.m.

    You do not have to be a historian to understand this sign! And look who’s on the platform with him!

    “Perhaps that might be because he doesn’t have one. Will you get it into your thick head that it is possible for Ukrainians to oppose Yanukovych and Russian interference in their country with being a fascist – and that your thinking that they are incapable of acting on their own behalf and initiative without the help of outside powers is quite frankly verging on racism.”

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Yatsenyuk&src=hash

    I don’t like to be thought of as having a thick head, but I’ll admit to the odd hangover. I will not retaliate.

  291. Nice one, John.

    There do seem to be quite a few posters here now making excuses for these fascists in the Kiev govt.

    Some of them will of course just be neocons using the thugs to their own ends, but neocons are close enough to fascists that it makes little difference for those on the receiving end of their violence and plunder.

  292. craig 17 Mar, 2014 – 1:08 pm
    “In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.”

    The above comment was a direct follow-on from Craig agreeing with ESLO’s attack on my post. I hope it wasn’t made in reference to me. That would disappoint me in several ways. Perhaps I’m being a little over-sensitive here – I certainly hope so.
    Craig, take it as a healthy sign that many of your regulars are not slaves to your opinion. Labelling and smearing us is below your usually high standards.

  293. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:17 pm

    Grownups.

    Am I getting this right?

    We’ve not got to point out, to show photos, to link to videos of US sponsored fascists who now rule in Kiev ‘cos… ‘cos a bunch of fascists got on a plane to go and watch the referendum in Crimea and anyway lots of people who want to criticise the US axis for kicking the whole thing off are closet BNP supporters…or something.

    I’m getting a bit confused here. Which ones are the good fascists? Please tell me!

  294. A Node,

    I should be most upset if everyone agreed with me all the time! We have several new commenters out of the woodwork, some of whom are BNP.

    John Goss,

    I am genuinely unsure. Frankly I know nothing of the man’s past, but it would take more than that single photo to convince me. The raised hand and fingers are blurred compared to the rest of the photo, which might mean the hand was moving more than the arm – it is perfectly possible he was just waving to someone far off – it would need a video, or more than a single photo of someone with their arm raised, to convince me he is a Nazi.

  295. Look on the bright side, guys.

    At least we may now refer to habby and crew as “Eminences”, were we so childish and bothered.

  296. Just looked at it again. The right hand is very definitely very blurred and ill-defined compared to the left one. This looks like it was shot in low light and most likely it’s moving. Or could be a photoshop.

    As I say, I know nothing of the man’s past. But certainly that photo is not sufficient evidence.

  297. Ahhh.

    The footballers defence.

  298. I remember they used to say they were pointing at the sky and shouting, “Seagulls”!!

  299. Anyway off topic and I don’t care.

    RIP Clarissa Dickson Wright, aged 66. She had a rotten father and childhood but overcame both with jollity and good humour. She also did us the favour of outing Bliar as ‘Miranda’ in his junior barrister days. Should have been given an OBE or something similar for that.
    http://downwithjugears.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/is-tony-blair-light-in-loafers.html See comment

    PS Did not approve of her going hare coursing.

  300. Anyway, look who he’s with…

  301. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:42 pm

    Uncle Craig.

    First photo, that salute again at another gig.

    From two thirds the way down, multitasking fascist voting-machine action shots in Ukrainian parliament.

    A must see: http://hinter-der-fichte.blogspot.fr/2014/03/ukraine-die-kernluge-von-der-legitimen.html

    By the way Dad, I think I’ve worked out who the good fascists are. Thanks.

  302. Herbie

    Who is he with? I agree that’s pretty relevant.

  303. Sofia

    Sorry, where’s the photo you refer to? The only “salute” on the link you give is the same photo again. Further down is a photo of somebody else definitely giving Nazi salute – the entire demeanour and body language is very different indeed. It only serves to reinforce my doubts about the first photo.

  304. Craig, but even just judging him from the company he keeps, it is hard to give him the benefit of the doubt, for me, that is. I understand what you say. Until these riots kicked off I doubt many of us had heard of any of these guys, except Klitschko. The important things for me are that the legitimate government of Ukraine has been toppled by a western-funded political right-wing mob, whose early actions were to release the crooked Timoshenko from prison, and later actions, if reports are correct to ship Ukraine’s gold reserves to the United States in exchange for dollars. I can believe this because the US federal reserve is on its last legs and nobody is buying treasury bonds any more. So the Ukraine has exchanged something tangible for nothing more than shipload of confetti.

  305. John Goss,

    You know I am in no sense a fan of Hilary Clinton. But look at second photo down here

    http://www.constantinereport.com/anti-fascists-hillary-clinton-historical-confusion/

    Just googling I found photos of practically everybody famous you can think of in like position. If you want I’ll post a dozen more links. If you freeze a wave, it can and very frequently looks like that.

    “If reports are correct”… yesssssss.

  306. Somewhat lean profile of the boxer in rebellion. The alliance twixt Svoboda, Fatherland, UDAR for the 2015 electiions must be like Yalta, where Stalin is the only bad guy in the room.

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/vitali-klitschko-a-profile-in-opportunism/

    “n 1996, Vitali Klitschko became a professional boxer and moved first to Germany and then to California. Like many wealthy, successful East Europeans who became rich in the West, he adopted an unrealistic, idealized view of his native land. Thinking that his millions and worldwide popularity translate into an understanding of Ukrainian politics, Klitschko tried to become mayor of Kiev. When that did not work out, he entered national politics using his “UDAR”—an abbreviation for “Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform” translated as “Strike” or “Punch”. While outwardly his party espouses “liberal democratic” values in the tradition of Germany’s CDU, he forged an alliance with the neo-nazis of Oleh Tyahnybok and was literally, the most visible leader of the anti-Yanukovych radicals.”

  307. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:52 pm

    Hurbiy

    “Yes. What do the Ukrainians want, asks the lurker made flesh.

    The simple answer is that the neocons don’t care.

    _____________________

    What you wrote was simple (in the negative sense of that word) but it wasn’t an answer. Why are you afraid to engage with the lurker made flesh?

  308. The facial expression of Hilary is giving non-verbal signals to the person waved to. Almost identical to the facial expression of the Ukrainian bloke. As I said, I have got numerous examples I found. I really do not think that photo is evidence. That of course does not mean the man is not far right. I really don’t know if he is or not. The Kiev government is a motley coalition of far righters, oligarchs and some academic “technocratic” types.

  309. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:55 pm

    Tovarish!

    “Well I happen to live here in Europe and would rather not be fucked!”
    ____________________

    Have you ever considered the possibility that your mind is already fucked up? They tell me some apples might be the cure….

  310. Craig

    “Who is he with? I agree that’s pretty relevant.”

    The bloke on the left is Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of Svoboda, a fascist group, and he enjoys fascist saluting as well.

    He’s quite central to the thug operation and indeed the new govt.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok

  311. “At least we may now refer to habby and crew as “Eminences”, were we so childish and bothered.”

    It’s the flip-side of the LP “Revolutionary songs for Putinistas”

  312. Ben “Sadly, by throwing his lot in with the neo-nazi thugs of the Brown Revolution, Klitschko showed” quote from the article you list. Actually gives no evidence of an alliance between Klitschko and the far right, other than the fact they both opposed Yanukovich. Well, I opposed the Iraq war and so did the BNP. Was I in alliance?

    So many people on these threads think that by linking to some fool of their own political persuasion they enhance their case. All to do, I think, with the Left’s traditions of “democratic centralism” and appeal to authority. Most common symptom is that, because some utter fool wrote nonsense about the importance of the (militarily derelict) Russian Black Sea Fleet to the situation in Syria, I don’t know what I am talking about for not referencing that absolute pile of irrelevant bollocks

  313. Here’s Yats’ friend, Oleh, in all his glory, in the Daily Stormer, no less.

    There’s much more where this came from, I’m afraid.

    http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Svoboda-party-Oleh-Tyahnybok..jpg

  314. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:03 pm

    From Craig

    “In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.”
    ____________________

    D’you know, I never thought of that -remiss of me!

    I had thought that the Eminences were simple West-haters, or deluded arseholes, or mere useful idiots, but this thought of yours would actually explain several aspects of their posts. Like their worship of rasPutin as the proverbial “strong man”, standing up to those evil foreigners plotting to do done the Reich (sorry, I meant Mother Russia).

  315. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:04 pm

    “..to do down..”

  316. Who was worser; Neville Chamberlin or Winston Churchill?

  317. That link doesn’t seem to work. I wonder why.

    Anyway here he is again:

    http://www.israelunseen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oleh.jpg

  318. Herbie

    I don’t think it is in doubt that Tyahnybok is far right. Not quite sure what you are trying to prove. But I think you have to try much harder to prove links between him and the other chappie than one rather suspicious photo.

  319. “Most common symptom is that, because some utter fool wrote nonsense about the importance of the (militarily derelict) Russian Black Sea Fleet to the situation in Syria, I don’t know what I am talking about for not referencing that absolute pile of irrelevant bollocks”

    Pretty sure that was my foolish notion. Sevastapol and Tartarus are the only ice-free ports available to Russia; hence of strategic importance. Do you think I’m the only entity who recognizes?

  320. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:10 pm

    A Node says

    “If the electors fold their voting paper before posting it, nobody can see who they’ve voted for.”
    _____________________

    You’re so right! You have solved the riddle of “why transparent boxes” – it’s to encourage voters to fold their voting papers!

    Sorted! LOL

  321. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:13 pm

    Nonsense people. Next they will claim that Ukrainians do not exist as a nation and that their nation is historical error. Stop. Wait a minute. This has already been said.

    Nonsense people.

  322. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:13 pm

    A Node

    “Craig, take it as a healthy sign that many of your regulars are not slaves to your opinion. Labelling and smearing us is below your usually high standards.”
    _________________

    And smearing Craig (“drunk”, “mad”, neocon”,”FCO stooge”…) is well up to your own usually low standards.

  323. So, Craig

    When you asked me:

    “Who is he with? I agree that’s pretty relevant.”

    You meant what exactly?

    I merely provided an answer.

  324. In the interest of openness I link this picture from Ukrainian Truth which supports Craig’s position that it might be a wave. It is not the way I wave but I concede it could be the way Yatsunik waves.

    http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2013/06/17/6992353/

    It does not change my belief that these are western-funded usurpers of a legitimately elected government for their own political ends. They are not the products, in my opinion, of a popular movement.

  325. “They are not the products, in my opinion, of a popular movement.”

    It was a popular movement of ‘anything is better than this’, and the opportunists highjacked, John.

  326. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:23 pm

    Ben

    Of course I assume you have never heard of Novorossiysk, Taman, Tuapse, Vladivostok, Kallingrad? All these are warm sea ports and first 3 are in Black See where Russia has larger see line than Ukraine.

    It is easy to claim when no knowledge exits. It is easy to brainwash when no knowledge exists and when blind stupidity exists.

  327. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:28 pm

    It does not change my belief that these are western-funded usurpers of a legitimately elected government for their own political ends. They are not the products, in my opinion, of a popular movement.

    John Goss, you said that above. I assume you believe that President Karimov is also legitimate president of Uzbekistan. He was elected with 92% majority last time. His election and multiple re-election record is clear like sovet polutburo member’s file. Please respond to this one question?

    Also, do you think people who were brutally murdered in Andijan were western-funded usurpers? Do you not for a second believe that people could revolt against government that does not satisfy them?

  328. I should have qualified…”Trade routes for Russia/Mediterranean” for ice-free port reference.

    Of course you leave out the recent events on Syrian turf. Craig will enlighten you.

  329. Uzbek, three times now I have tried to tell you that the Ukraine is not Uzbekistan. The government elected before Yanukovich contained products of the so-called “Orange revolution” which made Timoshenko prime minister. She was in prison for thieving from the people and siphoning it off into numerous overseas accounts. One of the first things Yatsunik did was to release her from prison. She is another Gulnara Karimova. You’re backing the wrong horse.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/exclusive-uk-banks-in-row-over-yulia-tymoshenko-millions-9177693.html

    These are the same distasteful people back in power by means of a coup. Anyway it has backfired. Quite rightly in my opinion.

    Another thing I’ve been meaning to try to explain to you is that everybody on the left is not like those on the left in Uzbekistan, opening fire on innocent people in Andijan, boiling people alive and other obscenities. Some people on the left really care for creating a better society. And to be honest, just because the UK is better than Uzbekistan does not mean it is ideal. You do tend to look at life here through rose-coloured spectacles. Now please try and separate Ukraine from Uzbekistan. They are two different places, one in Europe, the other in Asia.

  330. Sorry, replace Yatsunik with Yatsenyuk.

  331. Sofia

    ‘Factist’ has already been coined unfortunately, and I suspect I am one. The worst kind of racist who has been pxxed off so many times by different members of one particular ethnic group grinds his/her teeth whenever another one comes near.

    Not only am I one, but thinking about it other people are factist about me. To them I am the stereotype square peg they have to hammer into their own little pre-fabricated round brain hole for people they think are like me.
    Hint: Male, middle-class, southerner, white, British etc

    Actually only God knows the inner hearts.

  332. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella! 17 Mar, 2014 – 3:13 pm

    “A Node

    “Craig, take it as a healthy sign that many of your regulars are not slaves to your opinion. Labelling and smearing us is below your usually high standards.”
    _________________

    And smearing Craig (“drunk”, “mad”, neocon”,”FCO stooge”…) is well up to your own usually low standards.”

    Habbabkuk, ever since you admitted to me that your purpose here is to distract people from discussion of substantive issues, I have ignored you. However your deliberate lies about me can’t be left unanswered. I have never suggested Craig is any of those things and I do not believe any of them.
    Congratulations on your new disruptive technique. I can’t deny it works.

  333. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 6:32 pm

    A Node

    “Habbabkuk, ever since you admitted to me that your purpose here is to distract people from discussion of substantive issues,…”
    _________________

    Nice try at diverting away from the filthy things you and others have said about Craig.

    Find me a quote to back up your claim, A Node. Put up or shut up :)

  334. Craig, trying to pass me off as some anti western conspiracy nut is not helpful.I support direct democray not Putin! War criminal or not you are calling Putin Hitler, while you support a neo nazi coup. A coup which would never of happened without USA money!
    Its a pathetic neo liberal war mongering arguement

  335. Craig , what I suggest , is the UK stays out of it. Osbourne offering money to neo nazis in the Ukraine is not helpful. Politions would start a war over this, the people either stop it or fight it! If we where a true direct democracy we would be sure of peace. If the Ukraine where a direct democracy then there would not even be a problem tobegin with. Its centralised authority that causes ALL these problems …and even gives Putin his power.

  336. Resident Dissident

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:03 pm

    “I’d sooner waste my time with some drunk in an Elkhart bar.”

    Yep that would be about your level – the best you can do is my reversing two initials and lets ignore all your pals’ abuses of human rights law (Russia was a signatory to the ECHR last time I looked) and that’s even before we get onto ethics and morality.

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/19082011-outsourcing-justice-russia-and-the-echr-oped/

  337. Resident Dissident

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:10 pm

    @Goss

    Some people on the left really care for creating a better society.

    Yes they do – that is why we do not support a leader who sets the top tax rate at 13% while cutting welfare, health and educating spending, who beats up and makes life hell for immigrants, who locks up his opponents and worse, who takes parts of other countries by invading them etc. etc. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

  338. RD

    I thought the top rate of tax was 45% if you mean Cameron, 39.6% if you mean Obama, but all the other items, cutting welfare, health and education spending, making life hell for immigrants, locking up opponents, and invading other countries. Yes they fit the bill. Or did you mean somebody else, Tony Blair, George W. Bush perhaps?

    Why I should be ashamed of myself in pointing out that the illegitimate government of Ukraine, is allied to the extreme right and funded by people who have stolen from the poor of western countries, who believe in world domination, and destabilise the planet. Well I am proud, not so much of what my country does, but what real people on the left have achieved. What about you? You seem particularly bitter about the election results and the fact that the western-funded Yatsenyuk has forced Crimea into Russian hands. They will never get it back short of war.

    http://openukraine.org/en/about/partners

  339. I fear Craig has been caught out lying on the “The Wrong Referendum, The Wrong Saviour” thread.

    I put this post on…..

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:00 pm

    “Strange, you missed 100,000 dead in Chechnya.”

    Lets not forget, millions dead in Iraq.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/13173659825/

    Craig then put this post on….

    craig 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:25 pm

    “Someone

    I have never forgotten the dead in Iraq. You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter. Killing Muslims is OK if it is Putin that does it?”

    I then put this post on…..

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 1:31 pm

    ““You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter.”

    I was pointing out that both sides have killed many people. I NEVER said that “Chechens don’t matter”, you Craig have lied, so please don’t make things up!, makes you look an idiot.”

    **

    It is clear that Craig will make things up, very low to say terrible things like he said above, how did he come to the…….”You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter. Killing Muslims is OK if it is Putin that does it?”.

    Make’s me now wonder if he was telling the truth to us all about his time as ambassador to Uzbekistan!, I now think his account is not the truth of the matter!.

  340. Craig: “Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect”

    ummm, is that a joke Craig? What about paying thousands of homicidal mercenaries and Al Qaeda affiliates to run amok committing mass murder and destruction in Libya, Syria etc etc. Not even mentioning Afghanistan, Iraq and the inconvenient truth of the new booming heroin trade of course – all nicely spun and managed by corporate media

  341. Resident Dissident :

    You were scathing about the use of transparent ballot boxes in Crimea. Your comment -
    “Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??”
    - was clearly intended to imply that they would aid vote-fixing, only, like a lot of your comments, it was more a smear than an accusation. No evidence, no justification, just mud slung.
    I asked you to explain how transparent ballot boxes could aid electoral fraud. I see you’ve been back on the blog since without responding to my question. Can I take that as a tacit admission that your comment was indeed a groundless slur which you can’t justify?

    ESLO

    Your comment -
    “Ballot boxes were transparent so that international observers could see there were no manipulations – what planet are you living on!”
    - is big on ridicule but, like RD’s, empty of substance.
    On the planet where I live, it’s more difficult to interfere with ballot papers when they’re constantly in view. Are things different in your dark world?

  342. CRAIG
    “I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality.”

    aaaaah here in lies the probelm ,Craig you are delusional if you believe this!
    “Western representative democracy” is just an elected dictatorship
    So you don’t care about the suffering and deaths of countless thousands of Central and South Americans killed by CIA death squads ,to keep “western democracy” fed with cheap resources?
    the fact that between 1945 and 2000 over 70 countries where invaded and 0 democracies created!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/us-government-spreading-freedom-and-democracy-since-1945/
    FYI
    Direct democracies like Switzerland ,do not invade other countries nor can they be invaded because they have a militia army ,and not a taxpayer funded invasion force!
    Switzerland had every reason to expect invasion. After Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933, he made overtures towards the various National Socialist-leaning organizations in German-speaking countries, particularly Austria and Switzerland
    Operation Tannenbaum (English: Operation Fir Tree or Christmas Tree), known earlier as Operation Green, was a planned but cancelled invasion of Switzerland by Nazi Germany during World War II.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

    CRAIG
    “The problem with people like you, Cuthulan, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Bush and Blair, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support. ”

    No, Craig.
    The problem with people like you, Craig, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Putin, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support. ……in this case Neo Nazi war criminals!

    Politions are the problem! We need them today about as much as we need priests!
    We need to decentralise the social power structure
    and hold politions accountable for THIER actions
    We need Direct Democracy Today!

  343. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 1:26 pm

    “Someone” (not Jemand, by any chance?): interesting attempt at smearing. Perhaps if you’d actually acknowledged and condemned the murder of thousands of Chechens, or even paused for a second to confirm that you had heard about them, it would have looked less as if you thought they ‘didn’t matter’. But you didn’t, and therefore it did.

  344. ANode

    Clear ballot boxes and lack of secret ballots aid vote fixing because those who might wish to vote against might be intimidated into not doing so as a result of their views being made public, especially with Putin’s armed goons in close proximity. It used to be the case in the UK (pre 1832) that the way everyone voted was a matter of public record, the resulting shenanigans was one of the reasons why civilised countries moved to secret ballots

  345. John Goss

    I was talking about Russia – on every sensible measure of left vs right it is pretty clear where your heroes stand. You have no shame whatsoever.

  346. technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 1:26 pm

    Your post says a lot about you!, you don’t read ALL my posts on this blog!!!.

    I have on this blog said what I think about the USA and Russia, one is as bad as the other!, both are run by neoconservative oligarchs, fighting amongst themselves.

    Now why are you saying…..

    “Perhaps if you’d actually acknowledged and condemned the murder of thousands of Chechens, or even paused for a second to confirm that you had heard about them, it would have looked less as if you thought they ‘didn’t matter’. But you didn’t, and therefore it did.”

    “But you didn’t, and therefore it did.”!!!, please explain that!.

    “Someone” “(not Jemand, by any chance?)” No.

    “technicolour” (not Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!, by any chance?).

  347. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 2:42 pm

    Someone:

    No, not Habbakuk. Someone = German for Jemand, which was why I asked.

    You’re right, I haven’t read all your blog posts. But nor, I should think, has Craig. And it’s pretty obvious why your one line riposte would, out of context, have sounded cruelly & casually dismissive.

    But apologies for not having the context, obviously. No reason to be smearing Craig with accusations of (long-term) lying: think you should apologise too.

  348. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 2:43 pm

    (sorry, Jemand = German for ‘Someone’, duh)

  349. technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 2:42 pm

    “think you should apologise too.”

    For telling the truth!, technicolour, it is there in front of your eyes, Craig made it up, he lied!.

  350. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 3:03 pm

    Nope, how has he lied? He said ‘your stance’ – a stance he read from the fact that instead of acknowledging or commenting on the murders of Chechens, you immediately replied ‘what about the Iraqis’ (or words to that effect). It is, at the very most, a misunderstanding, which you could have corrected quite easily, and without bombastic accusations.

  351. technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 3:03 pm

    What you are now saying is/would be a falsehood in every respect!.

    There NO ambiguity in my first post….

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:00 pm

    “Strange, you missed 100,000 dead in Chechnya.”

    Lets not forget, millions dead in Iraq.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/13173659825/

    I was agreeing with Craigs post, and pointing out “one is as bad as the other”, also, check the link I gave!, which proves the point, there was no other interpretation that could have been drawn from my post!. Craig made it up, he lied!.

  352. That Yarosh sounds like another mouthy clown.

    “Last week, a proposal was submitted to the Ukrainian parliament, suggesting that Right Sector be transformed into a regular unit of the armed forces.”

    Hitler did that with the Brownshirts after whacking their leadership, even though they’d helped him to power.

    The UK did it with their Loyalist terrorists when they formed the UDR. Of course many of them were whacked as well after they’d served their purpose.

    Par for the course.

    I hope they don’t whack Mr Yarosh, though I can see them doing that and blaming it on Vlad. He’s already got an international warrant out for this thug.

    The only way the neocon failure in Syria and Ukraine makes sense, if the US isn’t to be viewed as totally incompetent, is that there are forces in the US who are cooperating with Russia to undermine the ambition of neocons.

  353. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 3:43 pm

    Yes, the link helps clarify – I don’t tend to click on links unless I know the source, and it seems Craig doesn’t either. Still no lie involved! I had exactly the same feeling about your stance from your post; glad to know I was wrong, but I wasn’t ‘lying’. I can see it must be hurtful to be got wrong, but that’s the perils of the internet message board for you, I’m afraid, especially on such emotional issues.

  354. “Still no lie involved!”

    technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 3:43 pm

    It should be noted that when I posted back to Craig there was no retraction or explanation, apology….

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 1:31 pm

    ““You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter.”

    I was pointing out that both sides have killed many people. I NEVER said that “Chechens don’t matter”, you Craig have lied, so please don’t make things up!, makes you look an idiot.”

  355. Members of the recently established POGROM seem inclined to dust off veteran commentators.

    Grammarians with a passion for verbose minutiae and concentrations of extraneous points having nothing but contrariness as their intent, run free.

    Run free free-range poultry !

  356. ESLO 18 Mar, 2014 – 2:00 pm

    “Clear ballot boxes and lack of secret ballots aid vote fixing because those who might wish to vote against might be intimidated into not doing so as a result of their views being made public, especially with Putin’s armed goons in close proximity. It used to be the case in the UK (pre 1832) that the way everyone voted was a matter of public record, the resulting shenanigans was one of the reasons why civilised countries moved to secret ballots.”

    You are avoiding the issue. How will their views be made public? If voters are concerned they can fold their voting slip. How then can “Putin’s armed goons” see which way they voted? The most common way of fixing an election is ‘ballot stuffing’ which is more difficult with transparent boxes.

    Many Western democracies including France use them:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_France

    The EC provides them to African countries to prevent vote rigging:
    http://www.sachajournals.com/user/image/ajss2013ghn002.pdf

    And a Danish manufacturer of transparent ballot boxes supplies the United Nations with them:
    http://www.cphelect.com/transparent-ballot-box

    Please explain HOW transparent boxes aid vote fixing, and why you are only concerned about their use in Crimea, as opposed to, say, France.

  357. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    18 Mar, 2014 - 7:31 pm

    A Nought

    “Please explain HOW transparent boxes aid vote fixing, and why you are only concerned about their use in Crimea, as opposed to, say, France.”
    ______________________

    If I might presume to answer on ESLO’s behalf : perhaps because, in France, referenda are not carried out against a background of foreign soldiers and mercenaries standing at the voting stations?

    *************

    Be a chimp, not a chump!

  358. Someone, no, it’s you that appears deceptive, not Craig . You commented about the dead in Iraq in order to counter Craig’s highlighting of the dead in Chechnya; this is clear from the context. It was a callous piece of whataboutery, and Craig was quite right to challenge you on it. Craig was also replying to one of the BNP “putinistas”; I recognised Black Jelly’s style even if you did not.

  359. Habbabkuk, don’t you be a chimpy chump. A Node has clearly shown that ESLO has seized upon something insignificant. That doesn’t make the referendum right, but ESLO should just say “oh, thanks, I didn’t know that”.

  360. “Someone, no, it’s you that appears deceptive, not Craig .”

    Clark,

    The FACTS are above, I will let them speak for me.

  361. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    18 Mar, 2014 - 10:34 pm

    Clark

    “A Node has clearly shown that ESLO has seized upon something insignificant.”
    __________________

    If insignificance were a criterion for commenting on this blog, there would be a massive exodus of Eminences. Starting, perhaps with Mary and her comments about the Duchess of Cambridge’s shoes.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “..but ESLO should just say “oh, thanks, I didn’t know that”.”
    _________________

    That assumes that ESLO didn’t know. What’s your evidence for so assuming?

  362. Habbabkuk, do you really want to argue about that? Look at this comments section; it’s a disgrace! I thought you said you were doing quality control.

  363. Craig why the “hate fest” against Putin?
    YOU seem to have issues.
    Anyone that offers a different opinion is either a “putinista”, whatever that is,do YOU even know?
    OR
    you just ignore them.
    BTW
    as YOU support centralised authorities like western representative democracy ,YOU ALSO SUPPORT PUTIN!
    As a Direct Democracy supportter I do NOT support Putin.YOU CRAIG are more to blame for Putin having power than me!!!..but I do not expect an apology,not from a polition!
    Centralised authorities are elected dictatorships and always produces corrupt leaders.Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely,did you not know this? Or had you not noticed that the UK and USA was been run by war criminals and paedophiles from 1945 to 2000? and 1000′s of Dead South american children are ignored in Craigs fantasy island! But shoot a Chechnayan and you will never hear the end!!!!
    Or do you just blame Russian and foreign centralised authorities and see no war criminals and paedophiles in the UK centralised authorities?
    FYI
    Direct democracies don’t just arrest war criminals and paedophiles ,even if they are politions, they also arrest criminal bankers.Please check Iceland for an example!
    MEANWHILE IN REALITY…SOMEWHERE NEAR KIEV
    It was the Western centralised authority financing a Neo Nazi coup that caused this situation!!
    ..OR are you still in denial of this FACT!
    SO Where is YOUR irrational hatred aimed at “obamanistas”?
    Let the Ukrainians sort this out themselves.Your opinion on the referendum is irrelevant!
    BTW the vote seemed very fair and even the Crimean Tartars voted to join the Russian Federation instead of a Nazi Ukraine!
    …and Craig is supportting Neo Nazis the new liberal thing? Many German Nazis considered themselves liberal and progressive, I think you have been in coalition with the tories for too long!!

  364. No chance for a campaign? On 16 March, While Craig was writing that, Gary Brecher was writing this: “Unlike many Eastern Ukrainians, who speak Russian and consider themselves culturally but not politically Russian, Crimeans identify strongly as Russians, politically and culturally. They were very unhappy when Yeltsin let Crimea go to Ukraine after the breakup of the USSR. Nobody’s mentioning it, but the fact is that there was already a referendum in Crimea on staying with Ukraine or rejoining Russia.

    “On January 20, 1991, Crimeans voted to restore their ties with Russia by almost the same percentage (93.2%) we saw in today’s election—where, according to the BBC, 93% of Crimean voters once again voted Russian.

    “That’s a remarkably consistent vote, considering what a lot of chaos and poverty have encompassed the region since 1991. Back then, of course, no one in the West took the results seriously, because everyone knew the USSR was evil and anyone defecting from it was good. But it might be worth remembering that election now–because with Russian economic and military power backing them, the Crimeans’ vote might actually count.”

    http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/

    The capitalism Putin represents is a vast improvement on the western model trialled so ruthlessly in the Yeltsin years, with its catastrophic die-off. Putin’s grannies no longer die in the snow, and Parliament is not bombed into submission. Britain, awash in Russian oligarch money, is in no position to judge. Putin is “adventurist” only in the sense that the Kaiser was supposedly “adventurist” for congratulating Kruger on defeating the Jameson Raid, which was so akin to this fascist putsch.

  365. No chance for a campaign? On 16 March, While Craig was writing that, Gary Brecher was writing this:

    Unlike many Eastern Ukrainians, who speak Russian and consider themselves culturally but not politically Russian, Crimeans identify strongly as Russians, politically and culturally. They were very unhappy when Yeltsin let Crimea go to Ukraine after the breakup of the USSR. Nobody’s mentioning it, but the fact is that there was already a referendum in Crimea on staying with Ukraine or rejoining Russia.

    On January 20, 1991, Crimeans voted to restore their ties with Russia by almost the same percentage (93.2%) we saw in today’s election—where, according to the BBC, 93% of Crimean voters once again voted Russian.

    That’s a remarkably consistent vote, considering what a lot of chaos and poverty have encompassed the region since 1991. Back then, of course, no one in the West took the results seriously, because everyone knew the USSR was evil and anyone defecting from it was good. But it might be worth remembering that election now–because with Russian economic and military power backing them, the Crimeans’ vote might actually count.

    The capitalism Putin represents is a vast improvement on the western model trialled so ruthlessly in the Yeltsin years, with its catastrophic die-off. Putin’s grannies no longer die in the snow, and Parliament is not bombed into submission. Britain, awash in Russian oligarch money, is in no position to judge. Putin is “adventurist” only in the sense that the Kaiser was supposedly “adventurist” for congratulating Kruger on defeating the Jameson Raid, which was so akin to this fascist putsch.

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