The Wrong Referendum, The Wrong Saviour

by craig on March 16, 2014 6:43 am in Uncategorized

I am not opposed to self determination for the people of Crimea; I am opposed to this referendum.  Nobody can seriously argue there has been a chance for a campaign in which different viewpoints can be freely argued, with some equality of media access and freedom from fear and intimidation.

Hitler invaded Austria on 12 March 1938.  The Anschluss was confirmed in a plebiscite on 10 April, just 28 days later, by a majority of 99.7%.  Putin has done it in less than half of the time, and I have no doubt will produce a similar result in the vote.  The point is not whether or not the vote reflects the will of the people – the point is whether the will of the people has been affected by military demonstration, fear, hysterically induced national psychosis and above all an absence of space for debate or alternative viewpoints.

There is no reasonable claim that Putin’s swift plebiscite is necessary because of an imminent threat of violence against Russians in Crimea.  There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.  Putin has proved that force majeure is powerful in international politics, and there is every reason to believe that he could have finessed international acceptance of such a referendum in due course.  Germany, in particular, is much more interested in its own energy supplies than in the rights of Ukraine.  In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest.  It is very likely such a genuine referendum would have gone in Russia’s favour.  But the disadvantages of open debate about the merits and demerits of Putin’s Russia, and his own self-image as the man of military prowess, led Putin to take the more violent course.

The vote yesterday in the Security Council should give every Putinista pause.  Not even China voted with Russia.  The Africans and South Americans voted solidly against.  That is not because they are prisoners or puppets of the United States – they are not.  Neither did they take the easy road of abstention.  The truth is that what Putin is doing in Crimea is outrageous.

What happens now is going to be interesting.  I greatly fear that Putin is looking to stir up as much disorder in Ukraine’s Eastern provinces as possible, perhaps with the aim of promoting civil war in which Russia can covertly intervene, rather than open invasion, but I do not put the latter past him.  Against that, I am quite sure Russia did not expect the extreme diplomatic isolation, in fact humiliation, it suffered at the UN yesterday.  I am hopeful Russia may step back from the brink.

The EU I expect to do nothing.  Sanctions will target a few individuals who are not too close to Putin and don’t keep too many of their interests in the West.  I don’t think Alisher Usmanov and Roman Abramovic need lose too much sleep, that Harrods need worry or that we will see any flats seized at One Hyde Park.  (It is among my dearest wishes one day to see One Hyde Park given out for council housing.)  Neither do I expect to see the United States do anything effective; its levers are limited.  I doubt we have seen the last of Mr Putin’s adventurism.

Human society is not perfectible, which does not mean we should not try.  I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality.  For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds.  Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation.  On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.

But every single one of those things is true of Putin’s Russia, and in fact it is much worse.  Wealth inequality is even more extreme.  Toleration of dissent and of different lifestyles even less evident, the space for debate even more constricted, the contempt for international law still more pronounced.  Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran. The consequence can be an accidental good, in that Putin has thwarted western military plans. But that is not in any sense from a desire for public good, and if Putin can himself get away with military force he does.  His conflicts of interest  with the west have deluded a surprising number of people here into believing that Putin in some ways represents an ideological alternative.  He does not.  He represents a capitalism still more raw, an oligarchy still more corrupt, a wealth gap still greater and growing still quicker, a debate still more circumscribed.  It speaks to the extreme political failure of the western political system, and the degree of the alienation of which I spoke, that so many strive to see something beautiful in the ugly features of Putinism.

 

Tweet this post

371 Comments

  1. Macky

    I think that criticism is true of many on the left, yes. Thankfully not a majority.

  2. Wow. A non-denial, denial.

  3. And with that, Herbie…..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpOOy7voiZI

  4. John @ 10;25 pm

    nice one… people keep saying follow the £ $….

  5. None of this is about that tired defunct left / right paradigm. It is about illegal non democratic violent coups supported by hypocritical leaders in positions of power and the corporate media who lie and cheat their way around the world

  6. Cheers, Ben

  7. Halibabacs

    I hate to use these frivolous obscenities but as I fully and unconditionally identify with the EU, its marvellous commission, the elected as well as all the unelected bureaucrats, I must strongly object getting fucked by that sleazy Nudelman. Given your peculiar leaning and treacherous nature, it seems to me that you would not mind getting yourself nudel-fucked. Give the “new” old blue eyes a call but please dont write about the aftermath as this could be read by minors.

  8. Dmitry Orlov with reports from the front:

    “Is anyone really in control in Ukraine?”

    “it appears that Ukraine’s military (which has never been involved in any armed conflict anywhere and is poorly trained and poorly armed) is mostly on the Russian side already, and, in any case, not willing to follow orders from Kiev.”

    So the fascist govt in Kiev have raised a squad of 60,000 brownshirt goons:

    “It also appears that the National Guard goon squads being hastily organized by the government in Kiev may be effective at intimidating civilians, but that they won’t be much of a military force.”

    That the Europeans are supporting this nonsense on their borders is the height of insanity.

    http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/is-anyone-really-in-control-in-ukraine.html#more

  9. Craig; “I think that criticism is true of many on the left, yes. Thankfully not a majority”

    You actually believe that some Westerners criticize their countries simply because they irrationally hate their own countries, rather than they criticize bad things their countries do, because their personal ethical/religious sense of right & wrong is greater than any nationalistic dogma of “My Country, Right or Wrong” ?!

  10. People power, without violence.

    So, Putin told the truth.

    The West lied:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZXqftu6alE#t=193

  11. All hail the MOD’s new multimillion pound project on cyberwarfare and the impact of social media.

    How ironic that there is no comments facility for this on the site…

    i expect my computer will start acting even more strangely after posting this.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/16/mod-secret-cyberwarfare-programme

  12. Nice One, Macky. Gandhi said he was a member of the human race first, and citizen of his country second. Surely he wouldn’t be categorised as “left wing”?

    Also, the founding fathers of the United States (e.g. Thomas Jefferson) considered that democracy was based on people not blindly trusting their leaders but making them answerable to the people.

  13. Vlad be my Dadd

    17 Mar, 2014 - 12:53 am

    Ah, Res Dis, I see. You don’t even know what I’m talking about. You cite the UN refugee agency when you’re trying to talk about the human rights review process. Perhaps you mean the Human Rights Council or the Human Rights Committee.

    That’s the problem with you patriots. Your idea of the law is a puerile nyah-nyah contest between warring enemies. You can’t begin to talk about international law. Ignorant and increasingly irrelevant. You don’t even understand why the US is afraid to go to war. International criminal law, universal jurisdiction law, internationally wrongful acts – it’s all greek to you. I’d sooner waste my time with some drunk in an Elkhart bar.

  14. Michael Robinson 16 Mar, 2014 – 8:47 am

    I have been arguing the same point with Craig and others – regarding the ‘golden age of Western democracy’ being an illusion. Yes, regression to the mean is a good description of what’s going on. Democracy is a system, not an outcome. Thank you for the links.

  15. Resident Dissident,

    thank you for fighting the politkoms. They are a particularly odious kind.

    The two nybooks links (16 Mar, 2014 – 3:58 pm) are excellent and accord extremely well with my experience as a Ukrainian, with family and friends in southern Ukraine (Odessa and Dnipropetrovs’k oblast’).

    There are several here on this blog who have jumped to conclusions about what is going on in the Ukraine and in Russia based on zero understanding of Ukrainian, Polish and Russian history and guided by their political leanings. They appear to think that Western intrigue can change the course of a struggle that has been going on for centuries. It is strange that the alleged $5BN over 23 years of Ukrainian independence has left no mark in the consciousness of my friends and family members. These propagandists are smooth operators indeed, or perhaps the $5BN claim is dubious as is typical of all of US foreign ‘aid’.

  16. Политком Goss 16 Mar, 2014 – 4:47 pm

    The video you keep banging on about is a propaganda masterpiece, inviting us to jump to lots of conclusions based on a few isolated factoids taken out of current and historical context. Ignorami like you make the perfect target audience. Your argument in support of this video boils down to this – MSM lied to us about Iraq, ergo MSM always lie. A classic non-sequiture.

  17. Uzbek,

    take heart and don’t let them get to you. I believe in democracy despite what I see in the comment threads on this blog. For every mad leftie politkom there is a mad neocon, they just cancel each other out.

  18. karel 16 Mar, 2014 – 11:21 pm

    “Craig, the picture of Hitler is a nice hoax but Bandera was a prominent sycophant of Hitler and a war criminal.”

    An ignorant statement. The Soviets must have missed a trick then by not inviting Bandera, a sworn enemy, to Nuremberg. Let us know your source(s) for this accusation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

  19. No-one here has shown any interest in Wilheim Reich, which is a shame if we are about to see fascism rise again. How’s this for irony… Reich’s book “The Mass Psychology of Fascism” was banned by the early 1930s German communist party, and he was kicked out of the party. If they had taken a different (more enlightened) view of what he was try to warn about, perhaps they wouldn’t have so easily become the fascists first scapegoats.

  20. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 1:13 am

    Mackey. 10 41pm

    Thanks for the Chomsky link.

    “My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century.”

  21. All Governments and dictators are dangerous and should be abolished and then we may get some peace. Anyway when people wake up they may come to realisation its just a hologram.
    So here is a nice little number hot of the press.
    The Citizen’s Arrest of Tony Blair:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vevw36LcUm4&feature=youtu.be

  22. Resident Dissident 16 Mar, 2014 – 5:35 pm
    “Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??”


    The Crimean referendum was fully in line with international standards, its results should be recognised both in Ukraine and western countries, Austrian member of the European Parliament Johann Stadler said at the final press-conference of international observers on Sunday.

    Stadler [....] stressed that while he watched the voting he did not see any irregularities, such as putting pressure on voters, for example. As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.”

    Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_17/Crimean-referendum-in-line-with-intl-standards-laws-Austrian-observer-8550/

  23. CM
    “Human society is not perfectible, which does not mean we should not try. I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality. For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. ”

    The claim of the Gospels and the Qur’an is that ” ye are to be perfect “, and that perfection of faith allowed the early Muslims to defeat the surrounding Empires of Rome and Persia within a few years.

    But when the Muslims disobey the Qur’an and engage in a 40 year love affair with the neo-cons, or rather the neo-colonials against the express commands of Allah not to work in partnership with them, what do you get?

    In a Muslim country where the government is trying to fulfil its Islamic duty to provide law and order for society, an ally of the neo-colonial powers, Al Qaida, makes a fatwa that it is lawful to murder the soldiers, bus drivers, shoppers in the bazaar, in order to make a strategic political gain.

    In a non-Muslim country, where the government has ensured the provision of disabled parking spaces next to the entry to the major supermarkets, I see 75 year old widows hobbling to park their trolleys in the trolley bays while young Muslims, male and female, park their 63 reg Audis Rolls or BMWs in the disabled bays, and hop into the shop for half an hour with their children.

    There is something deeply repellant to those who have fought for centuries against colonialism abroad and capitalism at home, under the inspiration of people like Bob Crow and Tony Benn, that the creed of the Christian and Muslim alike is now ‘me first’, my own right to life and my own right to safety exceeds the rights of all my fellow beings.

    The Neo-con/neo-colonial mindset uses the label of ‘the ends justifies the means’: viz when I take power from the corrupt people who are sitting in the seats of priveledge now, by any illegal means, I will establish the rule of Islamic/Christian justice.

    Utter and complete and total irredeemable gonads. The justice of Islam whether from Christian or Muslim provenance can only be established by the obedience to Allah. Chalas/towow/ end of story/ no need to say any more.

    In relation to the right of Russia to oppose US ambition I respect them for their intellectual power in confronting illegal US interference in world affairs. As with Tony Benn, I admire his intellectual power in opposing neo-con and neo-colonial ambition.
    But I personally believe that the route to success is not through socialism but through faith. The UK became great on its base of Protestant faith and the good book being digested by UK citizens.

    Al Qaida is the enemy of Islam, and selfish exhibition of material wealth and defiance of human law is the work of Shaytan. Allah forgive the Muslims who should be an example of godd behaviour, not world famous for violence and abuse of power.

  24. Evgenii
    As for Nuremberg trials, Bendera was a fish too small to be fried. Anyway, the KGB got him at the end and not without a reason. If you want to believe in his innocent nature, then just stick to Wikipedia. It is written for people like you. Otherwise you can try links like http://www.infoseite-polen.de/newslog/?p=2410 to learn a bit more.

  25. Craig, I do realise that you think, this thing is not going to happen, and maybe it will, or maybe it won’t, but if The Prosecution of ANTHONY CHARLES LYNTON BLIAR goes ahead with my Ex Girlfriends Kid’s in The Prosecution Team (They are Both Highly Successful Lawyers) – With My Own Daughter as a Witness – For When His Thugs (Local Police) Arrested Her Twice When She Was 15, Merely To Collect Her DNA (walking home from our local park two minutes away..can we call on you as a witness (if necessary) to give Evidence for The Prosecution?

    She refused to give her Real Name. She Didn’t Run Away – Because She Hadn’t Done Anything Wrong. I phoned up the Police Station, and They Said We Haven’t Got Anyone Of That Name Here…But My Wife and I Had Already Had Witness Statements Over The Phone From All Of Her Friends…

    They Said She Didn’t Run…

    I said Can I have My Daughter Back Please…

    At 3:00am at The Ploice Station, I signed all the Papers Put In Front of Me without looking at them..and My Daughter Flew Into My Arms

    She was only 15, She hadn’t done anything wrong.
    and I Got Her Out Of Jail.

    What courage is that?

    Tony

  26. BrianFujisan

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:32 am

    Wise thinking By – Finian Cunningham -

    ” Crimea Self-Determination Amid Western Law of the Jungle
    The crisis stems from the Western allies engaging in a tug-o-war to incorporate Ukraine into the European Union, allegedly so that the former Soviet Republic would benefit from EU standards of economics, law and culture. This supposedly high-minded objective has been pursued by Washington, London, Paris and Berlin by destroying the sovereignty and constitution of Ukraine in their illicit support for putschists who overthrew the elected authorities in Kiev last month – after nearly four months of Western-backed street violence conducted by neo-Nazi paramilitaries.

    That violence also included acts of mass-murder, most probably, the evidence shows, carried out by covert snipers working for the Western-backed agitators, in which up to 100 people, protesters and police, were shot dead and hundreds more wounded.

    Now the Western sponsors of the coup d’état in Kiev turn around and accuse Russia of violating Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity because Moscow has welcomed the decision by the Crimean republic to hold a legally constituted referendum.

    More from this piece @

    http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2014/03/15/crimea-self-determination-amid-western-law-of-the-jungle/

  27. “There is no reasonable claim that Putin’s swift plebiscite is necessary because of an imminent threat of violence against Russians in Crimea. There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.”
    I’m sure Putin would then have won the “reasonableness” war, but, sadly, most major powers don’t seem to see the need for cool, considered, non rushed actions. It looks like no one is coming out of this affair with any moral high ground – certainly not “the West”, which seems determined to push Russia into a corner….

  28. BrianFujisan

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:45 am

    Ladies and Gentlemen:

    I want to begin by thanking the Russian Orthodox Palestinian Society for inviting us to attend this important meeting.

    We have just arrived from Syria. Syria, where there is evidence of death, destruction and outright murder, in all cities, villages and regions of the country.

    No one wants this absurd war to be ended.

    Everyone is crying and mourning to see the daily suffering of the Syrian people.

    But what do they do? Nothing!

    Quite frankly I say, that the approach of the United Nations, in particular that of the Human Rights Commission in Geneva regarding the Syrian crisis, contributes to deepening the disaster in which we live.

    The wars inside Syria are portrayed as a conflict between the forces of the state and the opposition forces.

    This is not true.

    Full piece @

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-destruction-and-murder-funded-by-foreign-forces-mother-agnes-mariam/5373684

  29. She was just a little 15 year old girl, and God, she can run, if she wants to run..she was her older brother’s diving mate when they both qualified for their Full Diving Certificates…

    You Know Going Really Deep Down…looking above at The Whales and The Sharks

    She had already done that Before The Massive Burly Policeman Threw Her To The Ground…He Put His Knee in Her Back – Cuffed Her From Behind…with these plastic things you use to tie up cables..He then picked up my daughter and threw her into the back of The Meat Wagon…

    Got Another One For You Sir…

    This One Told Me To FXCK OFF

    My Daughter

    I love Her So

    She is Really Shy Like Me.

    Tony

  30. Hopeless sophistry from the “Ethnic Scot” Murray.

  31. Re above. I did Say My Daughter Got Arrested Twice when She Was 15 years old…

    The police didn’t realise this time…

    They already had her DNA from the first time…

    This time none of her friends ran away – the police gave them all a lift home..

    But still, she wouldn’t give her name…so Her Older Brother’s Girlfriend Saw Her In The Police Bus (They Had Upgraded The Meat Wagon) and said to her – come on – You Really Do Not Want To Be Arrested AGAIN…

    Just Tell Them Your Name

    The Meat Wagon was Parked Right Outside Our Home

    Still We Had To Go Through The Disciplinary Interview

    First Time At The Police Station…

    Second Time We Invited All The Coppers Round To Our House…

    I thought if they want to give me a lesson they can all come round to my home.

    The Third Time 3 Years Later She skipped school – dressed herself as a Press Photographer with her camera…

    And She Spun Between The Riot Police With All There Heavy Metal Gear and Helmets…

    And The Peaceful Protestors…and they looked at each other – wanting to have a bit of a ruck…

    And they saw my daughter between them taking all the photographs…

    Look at her – She is Really Embarrassing Us..We can’t fight now – she might get hurt…

    The next day she went again with all her school friends..and the Police escorted them right to The Front..So that she could take photographs of Obama’s Cavalcade when he arrived in London

    My Daughter is Something Else

    “Someone or something that cannot be described in words. It’s not a good thing, but a great one.”

    Tony

  32. here’s how to do it – when the right Saviours are on your side:

    Haaretz – Report: Syrian opposition willing to trade Golan claims for Israeli military support
    Top opposition official tells Al Arab newspaper militant groups want Israel to enforce a no-fly zone.
    “Why shouldn’t we be able to sell the Golan Heights because it is better than losing Syria and Golan at once,” Kamal al-Labwani, a prominent member of the Syrian opposition, told the Arab newspaper, according Al Alam, an Arabic language Iran state-owned media outlet.
    The Western-backed militant groups want Israel to enforce a no-fly zone over parts of southern Syria to protect rebel bases from air strikes by Assad’s forces, according to the report…
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.580169

  33. So is what you’re saying that the people of Crimea and every other region of Ukraine have a right to vote for Union with Russia, just as the Scotch have the right to vote themselves out of the UK or the Venetians to vote themselves out of Italy, but you just think that the vote was not valid?

    If so, then had the vote been conducted under absolutely perfect conditions, what do you think the outcome would have been? A strong vote for sticking with the $5-billion-dollar Nazi usurpers in Kiev, or what?

  34. of course, sell off the resources even before you get your jihadi allies to offer you the land:

    22 Feb – Global Research: Israel Grants First Golan Heights Oil Drilling License To Dick Cheney-Linked Company
    Israel has granted a U.S. company the first license to explore for oil and gas in the occupied Golan Heights, John Reed of the Financial Times reports.
    A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights.
    That geographic location will likely prove controversial…
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/srael-grants-first-golan-heights-oil-drilling-license-to-dick-cheney-linked-company/5347779

    whatever. we’re so enlightened, it’s all good and well.

  35. bbc were breathless with excitement over the following, but i noticed the Beeb guy choking on “tens” when he said “tens of thousands”…

    watch the video, only close-ups of what looks in moscow like a few hundred. also has the pic by Alexander Zemlianichenko that is being used to show “tens of thousands”. who knows when it was taken.

    Moscow protest draws tens of thousands
    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-12-24/russia-opposition-protests/52202792/1

  36. 16 March: IANS: Crimea referendum proceeds smoothly with high youth turnout: Observers
    Monitoring the referendum are 135 foreign observers from 23 countries and 1,240 local ones. The controversial vote also attracted some 2,500 journalists from around the world…
    “We have inspected 1,169 polling stations,” Xinhua quoted Ivan Abazher from the non-governmental Observer Council — Crimean Choice as saying.
    “We saw no violations or provocations. Voter activity in Crimea is unprecedented. Many young people have already come to the polls,” he said…
    A Russian monitor, Maksim Grigoryev from the Civic Chamber of Russia, said voters were going to polling stations as if it were a matter of life and death.
    He noted that even very old men and women and people with disabilities joined Sunday’s plebiscite.
    Pavel Chernev, another Bulgarian observer and also a member of parliament, described the ongoing referendum as “100 percent in line with European standards” in terms of the organisation and procedures.
    The Bulgarian lawmaker even noticed that a mobile ballot box has been used for people with advanced age…
    http://newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2014/03/16/281–Crimea-referendum-proceeds-smoothly-with-high-youth-turnout-Observers-.html

    16 March – Global Research: Stephen Lendman: Crimeans Vote on Joining Russia
    International observers from America, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria, Latvia and other countries came.
    So did European parliamentarians, international law experts, and 1,240 Crimean organization representatives. Human rights activists were involved.
    The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was invited. It declined…
    European Geopolitical Analysis Centre’s Mateusz Piskorski said observers are experienced in electoral monitoring.
    According to international standards, Crimean media, including television, abstained from campaigning for independence or joining Russia.
    At the same time, Crimeans were urged to vote. Nothing suggested which way. No pressure was applied. A Simferopol resident likely spoke for most others, saying:
    “We made our choice long ago. Ukraine has given us nothing, so we will try to live in Russia.”
    A Kerch resident called what’s happening in Ukraine “horrible. They won’t let us live, it’s clear.”
    Foreign journalists arrived in droves. A British reporter expressed surprise. Each taxi driver he asked gave “an approving nod when hearing the word ‘Russia.’ ”
    Other foreign journalists are surprised at how many cars display Russian flags. Popular sentiment overwhelmingly is pro-Russian…
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimeans-vote-on-joining-russia/5373673?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=crimeans-vote-on-joining-russia

  37. 16 March – VIDEO: BBC: As it happened: Crimea votes in referendum
    Election officials say 95.5% of voters have backed joining Russia in the referendum, after half of the ballots were counted…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26599776

    another job well done:

    16 March – (from The Independent) Patrick Cockburn: Three Years After Gaddafi, Libya Is Imploding Into Chaos and Violence
    Its government has no real power; militias are ever more entrenched, and now the state itself is under threat
    A striking feature of events in Libya in the past week is how little interest is being shown by leaders and countries which enthusiastically went to war in 2011 in the supposed interests of the Libyan people. President Obama has since spoken proudly of his role in preventing a “massacre” in Benghazi at that time. But when the militiamen, whose victory Nato had assured, opened fire on a demonstration against their presence in Tripoli in November last year, killing at least 42 protesters and firing at children with anti-aircraft machine guns, there was scarcely a squeak of protest from Washington, London or Paris…
    But the Nato powers that overthrew him – and by some accounts gave the orders to kill him – did not do so because he was a tyrannical ruler. It was rather because he pursued a quirkily nationalist policy backed by a great deal of money which was at odds with western policies in the Middle East. It is absurd to imagine that if the real objective of the war was to replace Gaddafi with a secular democracy that the West’s regional allies in the conflict should be theocratic absolute monarchies in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. This is equally true of Western and Saudi intervention in Syria which has the supposed intention of replacing President Bashar al-Assad with a freely elected government that will establish the rule of law.
    Libya is imploding…
    http://www.unz.com/pcockburn/three-years-after-gaddafi-libya-is-imploding-into-chaos-and-violence/

  38. Flight MH370

    17 Mar, 2014 - 5:52 am

    [Banned from commenting]

  39. 17 March – Reuters – Mike Collett-White/Alastair MacDonald: Moscow wins Crimea vote, West readies sanctions
    Crimea’s Moscow-backed leaders declared a 96-percent vote in favour of quitting Ukraine and annexation by Russia in a referendum Western powers said was illegal and will bring immediate sanctions…
    With three-quarters of Sunday’s votes counted in Crimea, a Black Sea peninsula that is home to 2 million people, 95.7 percent had supported annexation by Russia, chief electoral official Mikhail Malyshev, was quoted as saying by local media.
    Turnout was 83 percent, he added – a high figure given that many who opposed the move had said they would boycott the vote…
    The risk of Europe becoming locked in a damaging spiral of economic retaliation with Moscow, from which it buys much of its energy, depended on Russia, Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans said ahead of the EU meeting in Brussels: “I would do anything possible to avoid sanctions, because I believe everybody will suffer if we get into sanctions,” he said…
    There were pro-Russian rallies in several Ukrainian cities on Sunday, including one in Kharkiv where protesters burned books at a Ukrainian cultural centre where two pro-Russian activists were shot dead on Friday in a fight with members of Right Sector, a nationalist group that emerged during battles with riot police amidst the pro-European protests in Kiev.
    In Donetsk, heart of the industrial east where a Ukrainian nationalist was killed in a clash last week, some welcomed the outcome in Crimea and hoped they too might vote to join Russia.
    “This is a total victory. A 100 percent win,” said one man who gave his name as Roman. “We here in Donetsk support Crimea. We don’t support the Kiev authorities that are ruling today.”…
    The Interior Ministry, possibly responding to reported threats by nationalist militants to attack pipelines carrying Russian gas exports to the EU across Ukraine, said its forces had taken control of the country’s vital pipeline network…
    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/ukraine-crisis-crimea-referendum-idINDEEA2G00620140317?feedType=RSS&feedName=everything&virtualBrandChannel=11709
    (Additional reporting by Aleksandar Vasovic and Andrew Osborn in Simferopol, Ron Popeski, Richard Balmforth and Natalia Zinets in Kiev, Lina Kushch in Donetsk, Roberta Rampton and Matt Spetalnick in Washington, Adrian Croft and Jan Strupczewski in Brussels and Lidia Kelly and Timothy Heritage in Moscow; Writing by Alastair Macdonald; Editing by Mohammad Zargham)

    Alastair desperately looking for a more “martial mood”:

    17 March – Reuters – Alastair MacDonald: As Russia closes in, Ukrainians fearful, defiant
    “Us fascists?” asked Valentin. “They’re the fascists,” he said, likening the “referendum at gunpoint” he expects to annex Crimea to the invasion he was part of as a young conscript, when Soviet leaders claimed to have been invited by Czechoslovakia to lend “fraternal help” against a purported right-wing plot…
    As shown by Crimean voters and eastern protesters seeking autonomy, many Ukrainians feel cut off from a Russian homeland by arbitrary post-Soviet borders. But they are in a minority, albeit concentrated in big, industrial cities near Russia…
    For old soldier Valentin, Putin’s action could “backfire”: “He’s pushing us into the arms of the EU,” he said, echoing a widespread view in Kiev after two uneasy decades trying to balance relations between the Kremlin and the West.
    Svetlana, visiting from Poltava in the east, blamed Putin and corrupt Ukrainian leaders for the situation: “It’s just terrible that people are talking about war. It’s worrying.”…
    A poll last week confirmed that few Ukrainians – about 3 percent – want to go to war to defend their territory, including Crimea. But appeals for support for the armed forces, including troops blockaded in bases in Crimea, and last week’s formation of a new National Guard are contributing to a more martial mood…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/us-ukraine-crisis-war-idUSBREA2G03220140317
    (Editing by Ron Popeski)

  40. CanSpeccy

    I think it is very probable that, with a proper vote under proper conditions, as you put it – ie a genuine debate with all sides able to put their views and no armed intimidation – Crimea would vote to join Russia. I also think that would have been a good outcome. See my first post on this subject.

    But I certainly do not think that result would have brought a 97per cent majority – exactly Hitler’s plebiscite in Austria – in a region where abut 40% of the population is not Russian. I am amazed that none of the Putinistas exhibit no shame at the 97% claim.

  41. Oddie

    The secret state of the US brain-washed Obama from an early age to become the credible neo-colonial black leader to re-take Africa into colonial ownership. Chaos under Al Qaida is the plan, to allow Africom a platform for legitimate invasion. The US doesn’t care about a little Islamisation, it has its own program of born-again Christianity and it wants people to be absorbed with religion while it re-conquers the wealth of the African continent.

    Did the West not use the Arab in the Carribean slave trade as an excuse to rescue Africa from the predations of Islam? The Arab slave trade to the Ottoman Empire was even more brutal, more lethal in the transportation, and male slaves were castrated before exportation because Islam does not permit human mutilation.

    The West knows how to prepare its workers, by torturing them in the cells of dictators like Gaddafi, and it knows how to utilise them after their release to terrorise their fellow Muslims.
    This crap has been going on since time. You think they don’t know, the UKUSIS, how to get their hands on African land?

  42. Macky,

    Nobody has been more outspokenly critical of the West than I. I think that Chomsky’s quotation is absolutely right, and not only do I subscribe to it, I very actively live by it. I don’t think it is anything to do with self-hatred for the left to criticize the West.

    What is very, very wrong is for the intellectually challenged to conclude that the West is bad, therefore anybody who is not the West is good. That is a logical fallacy so childish it is difficult to take you seriously.

    What if you go back to my original post and tell me what is wrong about the observations I make about Putin’s Russia?

  43. Craig

    As I’m sure you know, many religious zealots started as Communists, because it promises change of ownership and the possibility of personal profiteering. Then they discovered that the combination of twisting the meaning of ancient texts and getting paid by the neo=conservative, neo-colonials was more lucrative, safer, and more the way the wind was blowing.

    So they switched, and they mock Socialism, as you do, in favour of “”neo-Liberalism”". If Socialism was to return to profitability for them, they would swing back to Socialism. The political mind is only interested in personal power and gain. I find this quibbling about the rights and wrongs of politics rather annoying. Politics is power, and right now the money is with the Neo-Cons.

    Question is: Are you, Craig Murray, involved with them? In the betting sense I mean. It appears to many of your readers that you have changed sides from standing against the NeoLiberal cause, to standing with them.

  44. Craig; “What is very, very wrong is for the intellectually challenged to conclude that the West is bad, therefore anybody who is not the West is good. That is a logical fallacy so childish it is difficult to take you seriously.”

    With due respect Craig, nobody, let alone “many”, are actually holding up Putin as a role model of perfection !

    Are you not familiar with the concept of “The Lesser Evil”, or “The Greater Good” ?

    “What if you go back to my original post and tell me what is wrong about the observations I make about Putin’s Russia?”

    Maybe not much, but not really inclined to take the trouble if you cannot respond to the points I have already made to your original Post; in fact I can only assume that you haven’t seen it, otherwise you wouldn’t have just made that childish fallacy that you yourself project on others, as my comment about you imagining people “admiring his warts” had pointed out;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/the-wrong-referendum-the-wrong-saviour/#comment-446358

  45. Herbie 12.05 a.m. Thanks for that video of the peaceful villages turning back a Ukrainian military column. As it says “Nobody wants war and bloodshed”.

    “Мирные жители маленького городка остановили военную колонну и повернули её назад. Никто не хочет войны и крови.”

  46. In fact Craig, you should know that Al Qaida is a religious front for taking land and power from the neo-Cons. The deal is, we Neo-colonisers get the big stuff, the ports, the Libyan oil-wells, banks, money, investments etc and we provide the rain of hell fire of modern industrial weaponry on the civilian populations; you the self-proclaimed defenders of Islam/ political profiteermongers in disguise get the land, the people, the bits and bobs of jails, police stations etc and you provide the moral creed, because the whole world knows that we have none.

    We are bankrupt morally so you provide the moral cause. I scratch your back you scratch my balls. No more ticks. Not just fuck the EU, fuck the whole damn Islamic and non-Islamic world.

  47. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 8:24 am

    “Putinistas”

    Uncle Craig, are you trolling your own blog?

    I see plenty here who tirelessly point out the fact that what has happened in Ukraine is a US coup. While they may get called names, even by you, the evidence, in the form of words from Nuland’s and Ashton’s own mouths, is widely available and cannot be ignored forever.

    While no effort is spared by some posters to vilify Putin, I see few signs of true “Putinistas” here. Those who you seek to insult seem to me simply to consider the rights of Ukrainians, including the Russian-speaking population in Ukraine, to have been grossly and criminally disregarded and betrayed by both Ukrainian putchists and their Western handlers. The same can be said regarding the large numbers of the original Maidan protesters who, while opposing the corruption of the ousted government and maybe a little naive regarding the EU, do not deserve to have unelected ultra-right ministers foisted on them.

    Using Dad’s name-calling tactics will not persuade anyone who cares do look beyond the threadbare propaganda. Why you do not address the Nuland and Ashton recordings? These are surely genuine conspirators, caught in the act that set the scene for Crimea’s secession. Does pointing this out make me a “Putinista” or conspiracy theorist?

  48. the pics on this page allegedly show members in Kiev voting multiple times in the vote to ouster Yanukovych, even tho each member has a single ID card. this inclus Yats. i think i’ve understood that much, but someone might be able to translate or add more detail:

    http://hinter-der-fichte.blogspot.fr/2014/03/ukraine-die-kernluge-von-der-legitimen.html

  49. Sofia

    Have addressed those points ad nauseam on earlier threads. I think Nuland’s vile blabberings had very little effect and you overrate the capacity of western diplomats and security services to affect events on the ground. There have been a great many CIA-backed coups, Egypt being a recent example, but with that and most like Nkrumah in Ghana or Allende in Chile they operate trough the military. Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect.

  50. Macky,

    Yes. If you bother to read my post, you will see that I believe Putin is the greater evil. That is precisely the point I am asking you to address, and you refuse. What is wrong in my portrayal of Putin’s Russia?

  51. A pretty even handed post from Craig here; he is right to point out that, despite the hasty referendum, vote later on ,in a less charged atmosphere, would also likely result in a resounding vote for reunion with Russia.

    He is also right to call out Putin on his contempt for the ‘international community’ and ‘international law’ over his actions in Ukraine. Hell, his arrogance in this regard even bears comparison with Israeli and US disregard for the same, when it suits them!

    An excellent thread as well; Oddie, thanks for the links, and Res Diss, thanks for your pathetic attempt at 08.51 yesterday to resurrect the ‘domino theory’ from the dustbin of history- I really enjoyed that.

  52. 93% at last count. Rule of thumb: any referendum where one side gets above 70% is likely bent. Because people are rarely that much in agreement … about anything really. Oh I suppose there are excepetions.

    Still, you have to laugh at the West and its ‘refusal to recognize’ the result. We are like a small child who refuses to recognise that the ice-cream actually belonged to our younger sibling. Just because we think it, doesn’t make it so. The Crimean referendum was, well, let’s say it was equally as bent as the Ukranian revolution. We may quibble about the ‘equally’, but I’m being bi-partisan here.

    Honestly? I think we’ve just played right into Putin’s hands. One might almost argue that the stitch up occurred in private (Syria talks anyone?) and everything has been for show. I don’t, finally, believe this, because our foreign policy is way too stupid to be this devious, and reckon it’s much more likely that once the Ukranian revolution occurred, nobody in the West really gave much thought to what would happen in Crimea. When I say ‘nobody’ I really mean ‘nobody with influence’. Doubtless lots of intelligent people thought it through carefully, it’s just that these lunatic neocons don’t really listen to intelligent people. Indeed, intelligent people seem to get sacked, demoted, sidelined or – if in doubt – dealt with in more sinister ways. Wonder why everything goes tits up so often? Hm.

  53. Господин Евгений

    “The video you keep banging on about is a propaganda masterpiece, inviting us to jump to lots of conclusions based on a few isolated factoids taken out of current and historical context. Ignorami like you make the perfect target audience. Your argument in support of this video boils down to this – MSM lied to us about Iraq, ergo MSM always lie. A classic non-sequitur.”

    Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! The video does not show isolated facts taken out of “current and historical context”. It shows that fascists have taken over Kiev, that Victoria Nugent does not want the public to know this, so she advises that Klitschko should not have a deputy prime-minister role, and likewise the Svoboda Fascist, anti-semitic and xenophobic godfather, Oleh Tyannybok, must also stay out of the limelight. Therefore the lawyer, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, must be the front man. Although he too is a Fascist, his track-record in Fascism is not as well-known. Watch it and argue the facts. Otherwise everybody on the blog will know who the real ignoramus is. By their fruits shall ye know them.

    By the way, I bang on about it because none of it has not been covered by our media. The media lied about Iraq, they lie about the situation in Ukraine. The war on Islam was created to allow for this perpetual lying. I do not blame the newsreaders, they have families to keep, lives to live. You need to wake up Господин Евгений.

  54. John Goss,

    Are you implying that Klitschko is a fascist? On what evidence? I should say I know very little about the man other than that he was considered very bright for a boxer (!), but I don’t think I have heard him called a fascist before.

  55. Guano

    Am I a neo-liberal? Did you read the post?

    “For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.”

    Neo-liberals say that kind of thing, of course.

    “Anybody who isn’t the West must be a good guy. Everyone who doesn’t agree must be a neo-liberal, or as was above suggested, mentally ill.” I should be quite interested to know what ideological background some of the strange commenters here come from (not you, Guano, I know your viewpoint of course).

  56. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:25 am

    For lefties everyone in Ukraine is a fascist now. Shows how effective Putin’s propaganda is. There is a blame for western media which discredited itself, but why do lefties not question putin’s sources? Why do they take everything in putin’s sources as to be true, while in fact many Russian intellectuals many of whom could not for a second be abused as Russian democrat (yes yes democrat is abusive word in Russian) question putin’s propaganda vs Ukraine.

    Blind western lefties at their best.

    And referendum in Crimea is as expected 97% despite the fact that over 40% of population did not participate.

  57. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:29 am

    It is fascinating to watch how every details of Maidan being investigated with huge leftie magnifying glass BUT none of them have brain cells large enough to acknowledge that so called Pro-Russian self defence forces were in fact Russian military personnel.

    After this mad lefties discredited themselves in my eyes. Their extremely biased approach to everything makes it impossible to put even little trust in their words.

  58. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:35 am

    Crimean Tatars boycotted the referendum. Probably wrong tactical move, time will show.

    It will be unfortunate to see how long it will take before they made forgotten wrongdoings of Russians on them. Centuries of abuse and decades of genocidal approach that Crimean Tatars suffered from Russians.

    Yet another aspect of Russian policy in Crimea being hugely ignored by mad western lefties. And the same people will build mega conspiracy theories on something that is not so obvious but where western powers are involved and will ignore mountain of historical and cultural evidences which threatens their biased anti-western (by proxy) pro Russian approach.

    Shame on you mad lefties.

  59. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:43 am

    Uncle Craig. Thanks.

    “Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect.” …..except that Nuland suggested Yats as PM, and so it came to pass. She also suggested Sherry as the UN patsy, and so it came to pass, etc. …..all $5 billoin worth.

    If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and has a collar round it’s neck that says “dog”, how come you believe it’s Bambi?

  60. Craig. I resent the Putinista tag being applied. Same style as the trolls here who have labelled us Murrayistas!

    Is John Pilger (another hero of mine) a Putinista too for writing this?

    The Forgotten Coup – How the Godfather Rules from Canberra to Kiev
    By John Pilger

    Washington’s role in the fascist putsch against an elected government in Ukraine will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore the historical record. Since 1945, dozens of governments, many of them democracies, have met a similar fate, usually with bloodshed.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37970.htm

  61. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:47 am

    In all the Crimea shenanigans western lefties “surprisingly” unnoticed that Russian Duma passed the law making russophobia a criminal offence. Now Russia is multi-ethnic federal state with dozen of autonomous republics in 8 of which Russians themselves are minority.

    Now the question is why making only russophobia a criminal offence which interprets as when Tatars or Chechens say or do something that can be interpreted as russophobia they can be imprisoned. And when Tatars or Chechens are offended or worse killed (this is widely happening in Russia) it is not a problem.

    Some hard-liners in Duma even suggested to use new anti-russophobia legislation in cases when people (even ethnic Russians) display disagreement with government polices (which according to them) directed to the defence of Russian interests.

    Not sure about you but I feel that we have witnessed similar laws in Germany in 1930th?

  62. doug scorgie

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:54 am

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    16 Mar, 2014 – 8:32 am

    “Spot on, Craig, I’d agree with 95% of what you say.”

    What is the 5% of Craig’s post you disagree with Habbabkuk?

  63. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:54 am

    Mary

    Those who do not question putin’s propaganda sources and mirror everything that these sources are proposing (fascist in Ukraine, Russians are under threat, Crimea is Russian, f..ck international law, f…ck Crimean Tatars, f..ck Ukrainians etc) are all putinista.

    In the last 3 weeks there was nothing objectively reported in Russian media, with many such links provided here as references without questioning truth. Everything from Russian military presence cover-up (which none of the mad lefties has accepted), to threat to ethnic Russian was made by putin’s propaganda machine.

    It is huge shame that very people who questioned intervention to Iraq and cover ups in Libya and Syria are today so BLIND to the cover up of truth by Putin. This make me very angry. I cannot believe that western people so ignorant when it comes to former soviet union.

  64. Mary

    You are hardly contributing to the argument. Despite the title Pilger’s article says nothing whatever about the Ukraine.

  65. Craig; “Yes. If you bother to read my post, you will see that I believe Putin is the greater evil. That is precisely the point I am asking you to address, and you refuse. What is wrong in my portrayal of Putin’s Russia?”

    Wow ! Then again it’s been obvious for some time now that for you, Putin is the New Hitler !

    So despite saying you agreeing with the Chomsky quote, in fact you don’t agree with all of it, as he mentions that the US “happens to be the larger component of international violence”

    So in all serious, you are claiming that Putin’s Russia is not only comparable to the greatest & most powerful Empire in history, but that is actually even a greater evil ! I think you will find that most rational people, even in the West (!), will find the first part of this totally absurd, and the second part, delusional to the point of questioning either your sanity or your motives.

    Indeed the US always tops the Polls in surveys rating countries that people feel are most dangerous & a threat to a peaceful world. You only have to look at its record of non-stop continuous war against the Third World,(& even nefarious intervention in other Western countries), and then try to match it with a comparable Russian one;

    http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

    This partial limited list doesn’t really convey the true evil involved for the tens of millions perished souls, or the perhaps irreversible cost to the our ecosystem. Yes millions also died under Soviet era repression, etc, and there is currently still the War on Terror like campaigns against various separatist/extremist movements,but the fact that you chose not to differentiate between an incredibly active, ruthless, rampantly & aggressive expanding Empire, that is constantly provoking by pushing right up against Russia’s borders, to Putin’s reactive attempts at defending itself and its interests against US expansion, also speaks volumes about your position.

    The US is of course, the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons, and really has crazed people in positions of power that actually advocate that not only is a nuclear war winnable, but that the US should launch a preemptive nuclear strike to ensure that it’s winnable !

    I could go on & on, but let me address your point about your portrayal of Russia under Putin;

    “But every single one of those things is true of Putin’s Russia, and in fact it is much worse. Wealth inequality is even more extreme. Toleration of dissent and of different lifestyles even less evident, the space for debate even more constricted, the contempt for international law still more pronounced. Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran. The consequence can be an accidental good, in that Putin has thwarted western military plans. But that is not in any sense from a desire for public good, and if Putin can himself get away with military force he does. “

    Each & every point you make here, can be countered, questioned or refuted, but there’s not even the need to do so, because even if every point was 100% correct, the colossal economic & military power that is the US, that is a law unto itself, with its worldwide network of military bases and vassal states, and has been on a military roll since the breakup of the USSR, smashing country after country, moving closer and closer to Russia itself, is rightly & clearly considered by the majority of the planet’s population as thee greater evil, despite all that you & a few similarly irrational people may try to argue.

  66. Craig:
    “I am not opposed to self-determination for the people of Crimea…”

    Nor am I Craig but the US/EU/UK/Kiev is.

    “There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.”

    I am being realistic Craig and I do not support what Russia has done but you have to look at what the west has done also.

    The west does not care about the people of Ukraine any more than Putin.

    Kiev and the west would not allow a calm and peaceful atmosphere to develop through to the end of the year. You must know that deep down.

    The Crimean Tatars are boycotting the poll now and would probably boycott a poll at the end of the year, backed by the west, to make it seem, to the outside world, fraudulent and illegitimate.

    The west would supply money and logistics to the anti-Russia opposition and stir-up trouble and create division which will inevitably result in death and catalyse another “regime change” this time in Crimea.

    The poll today or a poll at the end of the year, if it took place, would likely have the same effect i.e. a majority for union with Russia.

    If Putin’s Russia is as bad as you say why would a majority in Crimea vote for closer ties?

    “In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest.”

    Is that not true of the UK?

    “For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.”

    Ah! Some balance at last.

    Perhaps the above paragraph is the 5% of your post Craig that Habbabkuk disagrees with.

    By the way, disparaging people that disagree with you (deluded lefties, Putinistas) does not help your arguments and damages your credibility.

  67. Klitschko claiming to be a democrat is a bit like Tony Blair claiming to be a socialist. Because of his boxing skills, (I would not wish to get in a ring with him) he has become feted in the west and no doubt experienced the best of western hospitality, but not the reality, and may genuinely wish to be part of Europe and see Ukraine changed on western models, but I would not trust his website http://klichko.org/en/ any more than I would trust the website of any politician. In fairness I cannot find any direct reference to Klitschko being a fascist and withdraw that label, though he does associate with fascists, and that taints him in my mind. He also associates with Victoria Nuland, and that further taints him. Anonymous Ukraine has downloaded hundreds of emails from the UDAR headquarters so if Klitschko was making Fascist statements I am sure somebody would have picked this up.

    We are thankful to Anonymous Ukraine for averting false flag events.

    http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_14/Operation-Independence-Continues-Anonymous-exposes-US-invasion-plans-in-Ukraine-7517/

  68. My comment earlier reads as if Putin is a hero of mine. He is most definitely not.

    ~~~

    Conjunction Try reading Pilger’s opening paragraph and about MI5 activities. Do you think that we have not been involved in the Ukraine putsch?

  69. BrianFujisan

    Mother Agnes Mariam will get more respect from Al Qaida for her obvious faith and courage, than from a western secular, hand-wringing audience who have their fingers in their ears about all religious things.

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:30 am

    A Node

    “As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.””
    __________________

    Thanks for that good laugh, A Node! May I take it that you agree with Stadler that transparent voting boxes tend to ensure fair and free voting? I imagine that most of the voters did not avail themselves of private voting booths either.

  71. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:34 am

    Conjunction10 16 am

    “Mary
    You are hardly contributing to the argument. Despite the title Pilger’s article says nothing whatever about the Ukraine.”
    Aside, that is, from the opening sentence… “Washington’s role in the fascist putsch against an elected government in Ukraine will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore the historical record.”
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37970.htm

    Look. Uncle Craig has the excuse of his advanced age and a lifetime of Foreign Office conditioning.

    Dad has the excuse of…well…erm…Dr Bullstrode said I wasn’t to tell a soul!

    What’s your excuse?

    As for Mary hardly contributing….you’re new around here aren’t you?

  72. @Mary, the story of whistleblower Pilger mentions, Christopher Boyce, was made into a powerful & dramatic 1979 film called “The Falcon and the Snowman”; he served 24 years after being convicted as a spy, only released in 2002.

  73. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:43 am

    Mr Scorgie to Craig:

    “By the way, disparaging people that disagree with you (deluded lefties, Putinistas) does not help your arguments and damages your credibility.”
    ____________________

    Are you a pot or a kettle?

  74. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:52 am

    Hurbi

    You’ve referred admiringly to something calling itself the “Eurasian Organisation for Democracy and Elections (EODE), which apparently “monitored” the Crimea referendum.

    I wonder if your admiration extends to the ability to identify for us the members of its Board of Directors and its “Scientific Council”?

    For some reason I’m unable to understand, the EODE’s voluminous homepage is silent on this question.

    Cheers, Comrade!

  75. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 11:54 am

    “As for Mary hardly contributing….you’re new around here aren’t you?”

    _____________________

    Or, like you, perhaps he’s been around for quite a while and just changed his handle?

  76. No Sofia I am not new, I have been around for many years as an occasional contributor.

    Mary I don’t have anything like as much certainty about what is going on as most contributors seem to have. Nevertheless I have read this and other Ukraine threads with a fair amount of diligence and thank Craig for hosting an important debate.

    I am not on either side but I especially value the contributions of Resident Dissident who fought a lone battle for a few hours and Uzbek as well as Craig himself.

    We live most of us in the west and are painfully reminded on a daily basis of the corruption and atmosphere of doublethink that has become normal in the last two decades around here.

    But Uzbek reminds me that I for one have no first hand experience of life in the once Soviet Union and he makes me quite glad that is the case.

    It now seems likely that Putin will swallow the Crimea and we are hearing more threats about the rest of Ukraine.

    As to your question in some way it seems likely we have been ‘involved’ in the takeover of government but then so have all players.

    Everyone talks about the Russian or Western influence. What about the Ukrainians? They like many countries between Russia and the West have been political footballs for generations. I am interested in what they want and I suspect that their influence has not been as minimal as what many of the Nuland conspiracy theorists are making out.

  77. i don’t think any of us know how the 40% of Crimea’s Tatars who reportedly voted, voted. other nations have their own complex agendas. RFE journo – hardly a Russophile – has some interesting points to make:

    15 March: Aljazeera: Crimea crisis: The Tatarstan factor
    Why did politicians from Kazan pay frequent visits to Crimea recently?
    by Ildar Gabidullin
    (Ildar Gabidullin is a journalist from Tatarstan, currently fulfilling Vaclav Havel Journalism Fellowship in Radio Free Europe’s Tatar-Bashkir service.)
    Maxim Edwards
    (Maxim Edwards is a journalist and student from the UK. He has worked in Tatarstan and Armenia, and writes on inter-ethnic and inter-religious relations in the post-Soviet space.)
    In Kazan itself, local authorities organised, on March 5, a solidarity rally with Crimea and in support for the official line on Crimea. Popular cliches from Russian state media (as well as speaker of the Tatarstan parliament Farit Mukhametshin) were in attendance, decrying fascism and banderovtsy in Ukraine and criticising the Yatsenyuk government in Kiev…
    Two journalists in Simferopol attempted to coax President Minnikhanov into explaining his visits to Crimea, but like other Tatarstan officials, he remained inscrutable, saying solely that the Volga and Crimean Tatars were brotherly nations. Vice-President of the Crimean Parliament Rustam Temirgaliev (of Volga Tatar descent) congratulated Minnikhanov on his enormously helpful role in negotiations with Crimean Tatar leaders, guaranteeing to the Crimean Tatar community that their cultural and linguistic rights would be respected…
    So what will be the result of the Kremlins’ charm offensive? Minnikhanov has been put in a difficult situation. Volga Tatars are first and foremost Russian citizens, exposed to the same views on the Crimean crisis as other Russian citizens. Yet some are not without a keen sense of ethnic and linguistic solidarity with other members of the wider Tatar world. Moscow would certainly risks angering other Muslim and Turkic peoples (not to mention Turkey itself), were it to repress what is a troublesome ethnic minority in order to achieve its goals in the Crimea…
    Whatever Kazan’s motivations, Moscow’s are further-reaching. Crimean Tatar leaders may lose a little sleep over the motivations of their new friends from Tatarstan. “It is clearly part of a larger plan” remarked current leader of the Crimean Tatar Mejlis, Refat Chubarov, in a March 3 interview with Fontanka:
    “As a national custom, we always accept guests; we met with them at their request. But we asked why their arrival coincided with that of Russian troops. They say that they’ve always wanted to come, but they could not have predicted such a situation. We asked them, next time they visit, to please let us know in advance.”
    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/03/crimea-crisis-tatarstan-factor-2014314143349496558.html

    11 March: Al-Monitor: Vitaly Naumkin: Russia manages Turkey, Crimean Tatars in Ukraine
    About 250,000 Tatars live in the Crimea, around 12-13% of the overall population of which roughly 60% are ethnic Russians (80% of all Crimeans are Russian-speakers). The present-day number of Tatars in the Crimea is a bit more than the number of those who lived there in 1944, when all Tatars and several other ethnic groups were deported following Stalin’s orders…
    But the majority of the Crimean Tatars now live in Turkey…
    The Turkish leadership is clearly trying to simultaneously pursue two goals. The first is to preserve and further develop friendly cooperative relations with Moscow and avoid anything that could harm them, given the exclusively high interdependence between the two states. The second is to gain support and trust of the Turks of Crimean origin who are sympathetic to the aspirations of their kin in the Crimea (leave aside the existing baseless speculations about Ankara’s pan-Turkic or expansionist designs related to the Crimean crisis)…
    Despite Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu’s statements, Turkey in fact might even be interested in Russia’s reunion with the Crimea given possible new economic opportunities for businesses there.
    Moscow’s concern in striking a deal with the Crimean Tatars is also related to the growing influence of extremist networks there. Hizb at-Tahrir al-Islami, banned in Russia, has been quite active in the peninsula. A number of Tatars from the Belogorsk region have been recruited to fight against President Bashar al-Assad’s forces in Syria; Abdulla Jepparov from the Sary-Su village has been killed there, and his compatriots are still part of the Syrian conflict. A Tatar interlocutor told me that the mercenaries are first brought to Lebanon for training…
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/03/russia-crimea-ukraine-turkey-tartars.html

  78. Craig have you joined Hilary Clintons Neo-con campaign?
    Putin as Hitler?what a load of BULL!
    Its is the CIA backed coup in the western Ukraine that is full of Neo-Nazis!
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554
    It is the western backed Nazis that where shooting its own people and blaming the Russians!
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-democratic-coup-detat-killing-civilians-as-a-pretext-for-regime-change/5370705
    It is the CIA backed Neo-Nazi usurpers that is threatening Russia with nuclear weapons
    And exactly how many US navy vessels are currently sitting in the black sea?
    Ukraine has suffered a western sponcered Neo-Nazi coup!
    They tried to ban the Russian language and make Russians second class citizens
    The threat of attack against the Russian population WAS VERY REAL!!
    The REAL NAZIS behaind this COUP are just as obvious
    Newly appointed/imposed Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk announced on monday that his government plans to sell Naftogaz Ukrainy, The national oil and gas company of the Ukraine.
    He is a millionaire former banker who served as economy minister, foreign minister and parliamentary speaker before Yanukovych took office in 2010. He is a member of Yulie Tymoshenko’s Fatherland Party. Prior to the revolution cooked up by the State Department and executed by ultra-nationalist street thugs, Tymoshenko was incarcerated for embezzlement and other crimes against the people of Ukraine. Now she will be part of the installed government, same as she was after the last orchestrated coup, the Orange Revolution. ”Yats” will deliver Ukraine to the international bankers.
    http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2014/02/central-banker-appointed-as-prime-minister-of-ukraine-2600974.html
    Sorry Craig but your post is a Neo-liberal pile of war mongering anti-Russian pro-Nazi tat!!
    I certainly do NOT support Putinism BUT Putin is not a war criminal like Obama ,Cameron , Clinton ,Bush ,Blair etc etc etc.
    Putin saved Russia from Boris Yeltsins and his oligarchs vodka soaked CIA backed asset stripping sale of Russia.Russia is a lot better under Putin ,than if it was still under western controlled Yeltsin!
    Russia has an agreement with the democratically elected Ukraine(NOT the NEO-NAZI coup supportters) to have troops in the Ukraine
    THERE IS NOTHING ILLEGAL OR NAZI GOING ON IN RUSSIA!
    THERE IS A LOT ILLEGAL AND A LOT OF NAZIS IN THE WESTERN BACKED COUP!!!
    craig you seem to be striving to find soemthing beautiful in a Neo Nazi coup!!!

  79. 16 March: Itar-Tass: About 40% of Crimean Tatars take part in Crimean referendum – Prime Minister
    Crimean premier Sergei Aksyonov said on Sunday about 40% of Crimean Tatars had taken part in the referendum on Crimea’s accession to Russia as a constituent entity.
    More than a half of the 5,000-strong community of Crimean Tatars in the main naval port city of Sevastopol took part in Sunday’s referendum on determining the future status of Crimea, Lenur Usmanov, a spokesman for the community told Itar-Tass.
    “The data we have indicates that more than 50% of Crimean Tatars living in Sevastopol came to the polling stations Sunday,” he said. “We also have the information that most of them voted in favor of reunification with Russia.”
    Usmanov said the turnout of Tatars at the polls would have been bigger had it not been for the position taken by the Mejlis (Council of Representatives) of the Crimean Tatar people…
    “We have the information that Mejlis representatives would stop people at the doors of the polling stations and would try to discourage them from voting but the Crimean Tatar community of Sevastopol finds actions of this kind to be unfruitful,” he said…
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723832

    17 March: GlobalResearch: Lionel Reynolds: Crimea Rejects the US-NATO Sponsored Neoliberal Neo-Nazi Ukrainian Regime
    At the very least, one can certainly conclude that Crimeans are emphatically more enthusiastic about ‘Hitler-Putin’ than, say, the USA is about Obama, or the UK about Cameron…
    The western controlled-media has made much of the ‘Crimean Tatars’ in the lead up to the referendum, thrilled that it had found an indigenous non-European population that feared Russian rule and with a genuine grievance against the old Soviet system, a scenario well suited to play on western cultural sensibilities and therefore obfuscate the underlying geopolitical and imperial agenda behind western support for the neo-liberal/nazi Ukrainian junta.
    However, quite apart from the spurious claims, a significant number of Tatars (though not the ones interviewed in CNN/BBC coverage during the lead up to the vote) also rejected rule by the neo-liberal/nazi regime…
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimea-rejects-the-us-nato-sponsored-neoliberal-neo-nazi-ukrainian-regime/5373738

  80. Yes. What do the Ukrainians want, asks the lurker made flesh.

    The simple answer is that the neocons don’t care.

    Baroness Ashton made this quite clear when she told the remaining protestors, confused that they’d they’d been given more corruption and fascism when they wanted democracy, to go home and shut up.

    Job done, you see.

    ==================

    Pawns of the world, UNITE!

    used…

    Pawns of the world, GOODNIGHT!

  81. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 12:15 pm

    Conjunction. 11 56am

    “…has not been as minimal as what many of the Nuland conspiracy theorists are making out.”

    WHF? I thought the thing that defines “conspiracy theorists” is that they see conspiracies where none exist. Nuland’s mouth let the world know that she was conspiring to engineer regime change. How can those who point this out be theorists of any kind? Seems like they’re “factists” to me.

    mus get out in the spring sunshine

  82. “I am not on either side but I especially value the contributions of Resident Dissident who fought a lone battle for a few hours and Uzbek as well as Craig himself.”

    That sentence certainly does tend to pigeon hole you somewhat? I must be one of your Nuland conspiracy theorists because she, on behalf of the US, wants to do to Ukraine, what was done to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, leaving behind a countries in turmoil which were much better off without US/NATO intervention. The Anonymous Ukraine emails to create false flag events, which I linked details of in my last comment, are crucial evidence against US plans for the region, and Nugent herself would “Fuck the EU”. Well I happen to live here in Europe and would rather not be fucked!

  83. I’m not quite sure why some think Putin is a leftie or communist.

    In terms of political philosophy he’s quite obviously a Conservative.

    Paleo rather than neo, of course.

  84. Cuthulan,

    Aaah, but there is the problem. You say you don’t like Putin but he’s certainly not a war criminal. You plainly either don’t know, or don’t care, about Chechnya and Dagestan.

    The problem with people like you, Cuthulan, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Bush and Blair, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support.

  85. @Anode

    “The Crimean referendum was fully in line with international standards, its results should be recognised both in Ukraine and western countries, Austrian member of the European Parliament Johann Stadler said at the final press-conference of international observers on Sunday.

    Stadler [....] stressed that while he watched the voting he did not see any irregularities, such as putting pressure on voters, for example. As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.”

    That will be the Johann Stadler who is a member of the fascist party founded by Haider – another link to the Austrian Anschluss vote. There were also representatives of the Hungarian fascist party Jobbik among the observers – one of who was quoted as saying that they had to discourage our own odious fascist Nick Griffin from taking up his invitation to observe. And the Ukrainians are the only ones with a fascist problem?

    Ballot boxes were transparent so that international observers could see there were no manipulations – what planet are you living on!

  86. ESLO

    100% correct. The Polish guy on Russia Today from the “observers” was also a paid up fascist.

  87. In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.

  88. “Therefore the lawyer, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, must be the front man. Although he too is a Fascist, his track-record in Fascism is not as well-known.”

    Perhaps that might be because he doesn’t have one. Will you get it into your thick head that it is possible for Ukrainians to oppose Yanukovych and Russian interference in their country with being a fascist – and that your thinking that they are incapable of acting on their own behalf and initiative without the help of outside powers is quite frankly verging on racism.

  89. Mary; “Craig. I resent the Putinista tag being applied. Same style as the trolls here who have labelled us Murrayistas!

    Same style derived from the same mentality.

    Craig; “In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP”

    Pretty low Craig; is it sometime you felt in your water ? For real racist sentiment try looking at older quotes of those who are backing your Ukraine position.

    (“Putinistas” again ? and after Mary asked you so nicely)

  90. Johann Stadler and his politics are irrelevant to the point of my comment. I allowed his words to answer RD’s question:
    “Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??”

    I can see why transparent ballot boxes would help prevent vote rigging – it would be obvious if someone tried to post more than one paper, for example. I can’t see how transparent boxes could be used to pressure people into voting a particular way, as you and RD seem to imply. If the electors fold their voting paper before posting it, nobody can see who they’ve voted for.

    I’d be grateful to you and/or Resident Dissident for explaining how transparent ballot boxes could aid electoral fraud.

  91. sorry, above addressed to ESLO

  92. ESLO at 1.14 p.m.

    You do not have to be a historian to understand this sign! And look who’s on the platform with him!

    “Perhaps that might be because he doesn’t have one. Will you get it into your thick head that it is possible for Ukrainians to oppose Yanukovych and Russian interference in their country with being a fascist – and that your thinking that they are incapable of acting on their own behalf and initiative without the help of outside powers is quite frankly verging on racism.”

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Yatsenyuk&src=hash

    I don’t like to be thought of as having a thick head, but I’ll admit to the odd hangover. I will not retaliate.

  93. Nice one, John.

    There do seem to be quite a few posters here now making excuses for these fascists in the Kiev govt.

    Some of them will of course just be neocons using the thugs to their own ends, but neocons are close enough to fascists that it makes little difference for those on the receiving end of their violence and plunder.

  94. craig 17 Mar, 2014 – 1:08 pm
    “In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.”

    The above comment was a direct follow-on from Craig agreeing with ESLO’s attack on my post. I hope it wasn’t made in reference to me. That would disappoint me in several ways. Perhaps I’m being a little over-sensitive here – I certainly hope so.
    Craig, take it as a healthy sign that many of your regulars are not slaves to your opinion. Labelling and smearing us is below your usually high standards.

  95. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:17 pm

    Grownups.

    Am I getting this right?

    We’ve not got to point out, to show photos, to link to videos of US sponsored fascists who now rule in Kiev ‘cos… ‘cos a bunch of fascists got on a plane to go and watch the referendum in Crimea and anyway lots of people who want to criticise the US axis for kicking the whole thing off are closet BNP supporters…or something.

    I’m getting a bit confused here. Which ones are the good fascists? Please tell me!

  96. A Node,

    I should be most upset if everyone agreed with me all the time! We have several new commenters out of the woodwork, some of whom are BNP.

    John Goss,

    I am genuinely unsure. Frankly I know nothing of the man’s past, but it would take more than that single photo to convince me. The raised hand and fingers are blurred compared to the rest of the photo, which might mean the hand was moving more than the arm – it is perfectly possible he was just waving to someone far off – it would need a video, or more than a single photo of someone with their arm raised, to convince me he is a Nazi.

  97. Look on the bright side, guys.

    At least we may now refer to habby and crew as “Eminences”, were we so childish and bothered.

  98. Just looked at it again. The right hand is very definitely very blurred and ill-defined compared to the left one. This looks like it was shot in low light and most likely it’s moving. Or could be a photoshop.

    As I say, I know nothing of the man’s past. But certainly that photo is not sufficient evidence.

  99. Ahhh.

    The footballers defence.

  100. I remember they used to say they were pointing at the sky and shouting, “Seagulls”!!

  101. Anyway off topic and I don’t care.

    RIP Clarissa Dickson Wright, aged 66. She had a rotten father and childhood but overcame both with jollity and good humour. She also did us the favour of outing Bliar as ‘Miranda’ in his junior barrister days. Should have been given an OBE or something similar for that.
    http://downwithjugears.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/is-tony-blair-light-in-loafers.html See comment

    PS Did not approve of her going hare coursing.

  102. Anyway, look who he’s with…

  103. Sofia Kibo Noh

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:42 pm

    Uncle Craig.

    First photo, that salute again at another gig.

    From two thirds the way down, multitasking fascist voting-machine action shots in Ukrainian parliament.

    A must see: http://hinter-der-fichte.blogspot.fr/2014/03/ukraine-die-kernluge-von-der-legitimen.html

    By the way Dad, I think I’ve worked out who the good fascists are. Thanks.

  104. Herbie

    Who is he with? I agree that’s pretty relevant.

  105. Sofia

    Sorry, where’s the photo you refer to? The only “salute” on the link you give is the same photo again. Further down is a photo of somebody else definitely giving Nazi salute – the entire demeanour and body language is very different indeed. It only serves to reinforce my doubts about the first photo.

  106. Craig, but even just judging him from the company he keeps, it is hard to give him the benefit of the doubt, for me, that is. I understand what you say. Until these riots kicked off I doubt many of us had heard of any of these guys, except Klitschko. The important things for me are that the legitimate government of Ukraine has been toppled by a western-funded political right-wing mob, whose early actions were to release the crooked Timoshenko from prison, and later actions, if reports are correct to ship Ukraine’s gold reserves to the United States in exchange for dollars. I can believe this because the US federal reserve is on its last legs and nobody is buying treasury bonds any more. So the Ukraine has exchanged something tangible for nothing more than shipload of confetti.

  107. John Goss,

    You know I am in no sense a fan of Hilary Clinton. But look at second photo down here

    http://www.constantinereport.com/anti-fascists-hillary-clinton-historical-confusion/

    Just googling I found photos of practically everybody famous you can think of in like position. If you want I’ll post a dozen more links. If you freeze a wave, it can and very frequently looks like that.

    “If reports are correct”… yesssssss.

  108. Somewhat lean profile of the boxer in rebellion. The alliance twixt Svoboda, Fatherland, UDAR for the 2015 electiions must be like Yalta, where Stalin is the only bad guy in the room.

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/vitali-klitschko-a-profile-in-opportunism/

    “n 1996, Vitali Klitschko became a professional boxer and moved first to Germany and then to California. Like many wealthy, successful East Europeans who became rich in the West, he adopted an unrealistic, idealized view of his native land. Thinking that his millions and worldwide popularity translate into an understanding of Ukrainian politics, Klitschko tried to become mayor of Kiev. When that did not work out, he entered national politics using his “UDAR”—an abbreviation for “Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform” translated as “Strike” or “Punch”. While outwardly his party espouses “liberal democratic” values in the tradition of Germany’s CDU, he forged an alliance with the neo-nazis of Oleh Tyahnybok and was literally, the most visible leader of the anti-Yanukovych radicals.”

  109. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:52 pm

    Hurbiy

    “Yes. What do the Ukrainians want, asks the lurker made flesh.

    The simple answer is that the neocons don’t care.

    _____________________

    What you wrote was simple (in the negative sense of that word) but it wasn’t an answer. Why are you afraid to engage with the lurker made flesh?

  110. The facial expression of Hilary is giving non-verbal signals to the person waved to. Almost identical to the facial expression of the Ukrainian bloke. As I said, I have got numerous examples I found. I really do not think that photo is evidence. That of course does not mean the man is not far right. I really don’t know if he is or not. The Kiev government is a motley coalition of far righters, oligarchs and some academic “technocratic” types.

  111. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 2:55 pm

    Tovarish!

    “Well I happen to live here in Europe and would rather not be fucked!”
    ____________________

    Have you ever considered the possibility that your mind is already fucked up? They tell me some apples might be the cure….

  112. Craig

    “Who is he with? I agree that’s pretty relevant.”

    The bloke on the left is Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of Svoboda, a fascist group, and he enjoys fascist saluting as well.

    He’s quite central to the thug operation and indeed the new govt.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok

  113. “At least we may now refer to habby and crew as “Eminences”, were we so childish and bothered.”

    It’s the flip-side of the LP “Revolutionary songs for Putinistas”

  114. Ben “Sadly, by throwing his lot in with the neo-nazi thugs of the Brown Revolution, Klitschko showed” quote from the article you list. Actually gives no evidence of an alliance between Klitschko and the far right, other than the fact they both opposed Yanukovich. Well, I opposed the Iraq war and so did the BNP. Was I in alliance?

    So many people on these threads think that by linking to some fool of their own political persuasion they enhance their case. All to do, I think, with the Left’s traditions of “democratic centralism” and appeal to authority. Most common symptom is that, because some utter fool wrote nonsense about the importance of the (militarily derelict) Russian Black Sea Fleet to the situation in Syria, I don’t know what I am talking about for not referencing that absolute pile of irrelevant bollocks

  115. Here’s Yats’ friend, Oleh, in all his glory, in the Daily Stormer, no less.

    There’s much more where this came from, I’m afraid.

    http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Svoboda-party-Oleh-Tyahnybok..jpg

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:03 pm

    From Craig

    “In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.”
    ____________________

    D’you know, I never thought of that -remiss of me!

    I had thought that the Eminences were simple West-haters, or deluded arseholes, or mere useful idiots, but this thought of yours would actually explain several aspects of their posts. Like their worship of rasPutin as the proverbial “strong man”, standing up to those evil foreigners plotting to do done the Reich (sorry, I meant Mother Russia).

  117. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:04 pm

    “..to do down..”

  118. Who was worser; Neville Chamberlin or Winston Churchill?

  119. That link doesn’t seem to work. I wonder why.

    Anyway here he is again:

    http://www.israelunseen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oleh.jpg

  120. Herbie

    I don’t think it is in doubt that Tyahnybok is far right. Not quite sure what you are trying to prove. But I think you have to try much harder to prove links between him and the other chappie than one rather suspicious photo.

  121. “Most common symptom is that, because some utter fool wrote nonsense about the importance of the (militarily derelict) Russian Black Sea Fleet to the situation in Syria, I don’t know what I am talking about for not referencing that absolute pile of irrelevant bollocks”

    Pretty sure that was my foolish notion. Sevastapol and Tartarus are the only ice-free ports available to Russia; hence of strategic importance. Do you think I’m the only entity who recognizes?

  122. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:10 pm

    A Node says

    “If the electors fold their voting paper before posting it, nobody can see who they’ve voted for.”
    _____________________

    You’re so right! You have solved the riddle of “why transparent boxes” – it’s to encourage voters to fold their voting papers!

    Sorted! LOL

  123. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:13 pm

    Nonsense people. Next they will claim that Ukrainians do not exist as a nation and that their nation is historical error. Stop. Wait a minute. This has already been said.

    Nonsense people.

  124. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:13 pm

    A Node

    “Craig, take it as a healthy sign that many of your regulars are not slaves to your opinion. Labelling and smearing us is below your usually high standards.”
    _________________

    And smearing Craig (“drunk”, “mad”, neocon”,”FCO stooge”…) is well up to your own usually low standards.

  125. So, Craig

    When you asked me:

    “Who is he with? I agree that’s pretty relevant.”

    You meant what exactly?

    I merely provided an answer.

  126. In the interest of openness I link this picture from Ukrainian Truth which supports Craig’s position that it might be a wave. It is not the way I wave but I concede it could be the way Yatsunik waves.

    http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2013/06/17/6992353/

    It does not change my belief that these are western-funded usurpers of a legitimately elected government for their own political ends. They are not the products, in my opinion, of a popular movement.

  127. “They are not the products, in my opinion, of a popular movement.”

    It was a popular movement of ‘anything is better than this’, and the opportunists highjacked, John.

  128. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:23 pm

    Ben

    Of course I assume you have never heard of Novorossiysk, Taman, Tuapse, Vladivostok, Kallingrad? All these are warm sea ports and first 3 are in Black See where Russia has larger see line than Ukraine.

    It is easy to claim when no knowledge exits. It is easy to brainwash when no knowledge exists and when blind stupidity exists.

  129. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Mar, 2014 - 3:28 pm

    It does not change my belief that these are western-funded usurpers of a legitimately elected government for their own political ends. They are not the products, in my opinion, of a popular movement.

    John Goss, you said that above. I assume you believe that President Karimov is also legitimate president of Uzbekistan. He was elected with 92% majority last time. His election and multiple re-election record is clear like sovet polutburo member’s file. Please respond to this one question?

    Also, do you think people who were brutally murdered in Andijan were western-funded usurpers? Do you not for a second believe that people could revolt against government that does not satisfy them?

  130. I should have qualified…”Trade routes for Russia/Mediterranean” for ice-free port reference.

    Of course you leave out the recent events on Syrian turf. Craig will enlighten you.

  131. Uzbek, three times now I have tried to tell you that the Ukraine is not Uzbekistan. The government elected before Yanukovich contained products of the so-called “Orange revolution” which made Timoshenko prime minister. She was in prison for thieving from the people and siphoning it off into numerous overseas accounts. One of the first things Yatsunik did was to release her from prison. She is another Gulnara Karimova. You’re backing the wrong horse.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/exclusive-uk-banks-in-row-over-yulia-tymoshenko-millions-9177693.html

    These are the same distasteful people back in power by means of a coup. Anyway it has backfired. Quite rightly in my opinion.

    Another thing I’ve been meaning to try to explain to you is that everybody on the left is not like those on the left in Uzbekistan, opening fire on innocent people in Andijan, boiling people alive and other obscenities. Some people on the left really care for creating a better society. And to be honest, just because the UK is better than Uzbekistan does not mean it is ideal. You do tend to look at life here through rose-coloured spectacles. Now please try and separate Ukraine from Uzbekistan. They are two different places, one in Europe, the other in Asia.

  132. Sorry, replace Yatsunik with Yatsenyuk.

  133. Sofia

    ‘Factist’ has already been coined unfortunately, and I suspect I am one. The worst kind of racist who has been pxxed off so many times by different members of one particular ethnic group grinds his/her teeth whenever another one comes near.

    Not only am I one, but thinking about it other people are factist about me. To them I am the stereotype square peg they have to hammer into their own little pre-fabricated round brain hole for people they think are like me.
    Hint: Male, middle-class, southerner, white, British etc

    Actually only God knows the inner hearts.

  134. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella! 17 Mar, 2014 – 3:13 pm

    “A Node

    “Craig, take it as a healthy sign that many of your regulars are not slaves to your opinion. Labelling and smearing us is below your usually high standards.”
    _________________

    And smearing Craig (“drunk”, “mad”, neocon”,”FCO stooge”…) is well up to your own usually low standards.”

    Habbabkuk, ever since you admitted to me that your purpose here is to distract people from discussion of substantive issues, I have ignored you. However your deliberate lies about me can’t be left unanswered. I have never suggested Craig is any of those things and I do not believe any of them.
    Congratulations on your new disruptive technique. I can’t deny it works.

  135. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    17 Mar, 2014 - 6:32 pm

    A Node

    “Habbabkuk, ever since you admitted to me that your purpose here is to distract people from discussion of substantive issues,…”
    _________________

    Nice try at diverting away from the filthy things you and others have said about Craig.

    Find me a quote to back up your claim, A Node. Put up or shut up :)

  136. Craig, trying to pass me off as some anti western conspiracy nut is not helpful.I support direct democray not Putin! War criminal or not you are calling Putin Hitler, while you support a neo nazi coup. A coup which would never of happened without USA money!
    Its a pathetic neo liberal war mongering arguement

  137. Craig , what I suggest , is the UK stays out of it. Osbourne offering money to neo nazis in the Ukraine is not helpful. Politions would start a war over this, the people either stop it or fight it! If we where a true direct democracy we would be sure of peace. If the Ukraine where a direct democracy then there would not even be a problem tobegin with. Its centralised authority that causes ALL these problems …and even gives Putin his power.

  138. Resident Dissident

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:03 pm

    “I’d sooner waste my time with some drunk in an Elkhart bar.”

    Yep that would be about your level – the best you can do is my reversing two initials and lets ignore all your pals’ abuses of human rights law (Russia was a signatory to the ECHR last time I looked) and that’s even before we get onto ethics and morality.

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/19082011-outsourcing-justice-russia-and-the-echr-oped/

  139. Resident Dissident

    17 Mar, 2014 - 9:10 pm

    @Goss

    Some people on the left really care for creating a better society.

    Yes they do – that is why we do not support a leader who sets the top tax rate at 13% while cutting welfare, health and educating spending, who beats up and makes life hell for immigrants, who locks up his opponents and worse, who takes parts of other countries by invading them etc. etc. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

  140. RD

    I thought the top rate of tax was 45% if you mean Cameron, 39.6% if you mean Obama, but all the other items, cutting welfare, health and education spending, making life hell for immigrants, locking up opponents, and invading other countries. Yes they fit the bill. Or did you mean somebody else, Tony Blair, George W. Bush perhaps?

    Why I should be ashamed of myself in pointing out that the illegitimate government of Ukraine, is allied to the extreme right and funded by people who have stolen from the poor of western countries, who believe in world domination, and destabilise the planet. Well I am proud, not so much of what my country does, but what real people on the left have achieved. What about you? You seem particularly bitter about the election results and the fact that the western-funded Yatsenyuk has forced Crimea into Russian hands. They will never get it back short of war.

    http://openukraine.org/en/about/partners

  141. I fear Craig has been caught out lying on the “The Wrong Referendum, The Wrong Saviour” thread.

    I put this post on…..

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:00 pm

    “Strange, you missed 100,000 dead in Chechnya.”

    Lets not forget, millions dead in Iraq.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/13173659825/

    Craig then put this post on….

    craig 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:25 pm

    “Someone

    I have never forgotten the dead in Iraq. You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter. Killing Muslims is OK if it is Putin that does it?”

    I then put this post on…..

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 1:31 pm

    ““You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter.”

    I was pointing out that both sides have killed many people. I NEVER said that “Chechens don’t matter”, you Craig have lied, so please don’t make things up!, makes you look an idiot.”

    **

    It is clear that Craig will make things up, very low to say terrible things like he said above, how did he come to the…….”You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter. Killing Muslims is OK if it is Putin that does it?”.

    Make’s me now wonder if he was telling the truth to us all about his time as ambassador to Uzbekistan!, I now think his account is not the truth of the matter!.

  142. Craig: “Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect”

    ummm, is that a joke Craig? What about paying thousands of homicidal mercenaries and Al Qaeda affiliates to run amok committing mass murder and destruction in Libya, Syria etc etc. Not even mentioning Afghanistan, Iraq and the inconvenient truth of the new booming heroin trade of course – all nicely spun and managed by corporate media

  143. Resident Dissident :

    You were scathing about the use of transparent ballot boxes in Crimea. Your comment -
    “Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??”
    - was clearly intended to imply that they would aid vote-fixing, only, like a lot of your comments, it was more a smear than an accusation. No evidence, no justification, just mud slung.
    I asked you to explain how transparent ballot boxes could aid electoral fraud. I see you’ve been back on the blog since without responding to my question. Can I take that as a tacit admission that your comment was indeed a groundless slur which you can’t justify?

    ESLO

    Your comment -
    “Ballot boxes were transparent so that international observers could see there were no manipulations – what planet are you living on!”
    - is big on ridicule but, like RD’s, empty of substance.
    On the planet where I live, it’s more difficult to interfere with ballot papers when they’re constantly in view. Are things different in your dark world?

  144. CRAIG
    “I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality.”

    aaaaah here in lies the probelm ,Craig you are delusional if you believe this!
    “Western representative democracy” is just an elected dictatorship
    So you don’t care about the suffering and deaths of countless thousands of Central and South Americans killed by CIA death squads ,to keep “western democracy” fed with cheap resources?
    the fact that between 1945 and 2000 over 70 countries where invaded and 0 democracies created!
    http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/us-government-spreading-freedom-and-democracy-since-1945/
    FYI
    Direct democracies like Switzerland ,do not invade other countries nor can they be invaded because they have a militia army ,and not a taxpayer funded invasion force!
    Switzerland had every reason to expect invasion. After Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933, he made overtures towards the various National Socialist-leaning organizations in German-speaking countries, particularly Austria and Switzerland
    Operation Tannenbaum (English: Operation Fir Tree or Christmas Tree), known earlier as Operation Green, was a planned but cancelled invasion of Switzerland by Nazi Germany during World War II.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

    CRAIG
    “The problem with people like you, Cuthulan, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Bush and Blair, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support. ”

    No, Craig.
    The problem with people like you, Craig, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Putin, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support. ……in this case Neo Nazi war criminals!

    Politions are the problem! We need them today about as much as we need priests!
    We need to decentralise the social power structure
    and hold politions accountable for THIER actions
    We need Direct Democracy Today!

  145. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 1:26 pm

    “Someone” (not Jemand, by any chance?): interesting attempt at smearing. Perhaps if you’d actually acknowledged and condemned the murder of thousands of Chechens, or even paused for a second to confirm that you had heard about them, it would have looked less as if you thought they ‘didn’t matter’. But you didn’t, and therefore it did.

  146. ANode

    Clear ballot boxes and lack of secret ballots aid vote fixing because those who might wish to vote against might be intimidated into not doing so as a result of their views being made public, especially with Putin’s armed goons in close proximity. It used to be the case in the UK (pre 1832) that the way everyone voted was a matter of public record, the resulting shenanigans was one of the reasons why civilised countries moved to secret ballots

  147. John Goss

    I was talking about Russia – on every sensible measure of left vs right it is pretty clear where your heroes stand. You have no shame whatsoever.

  148. technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 1:26 pm

    Your post says a lot about you!, you don’t read ALL my posts on this blog!!!.

    I have on this blog said what I think about the USA and Russia, one is as bad as the other!, both are run by neoconservative oligarchs, fighting amongst themselves.

    Now why are you saying…..

    “Perhaps if you’d actually acknowledged and condemned the murder of thousands of Chechens, or even paused for a second to confirm that you had heard about them, it would have looked less as if you thought they ‘didn’t matter’. But you didn’t, and therefore it did.”

    “But you didn’t, and therefore it did.”!!!, please explain that!.

    “Someone” “(not Jemand, by any chance?)” No.

    “technicolour” (not Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!, by any chance?).

  149. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 2:42 pm

    Someone:

    No, not Habbakuk. Someone = German for Jemand, which was why I asked.

    You’re right, I haven’t read all your blog posts. But nor, I should think, has Craig. And it’s pretty obvious why your one line riposte would, out of context, have sounded cruelly & casually dismissive.

    But apologies for not having the context, obviously. No reason to be smearing Craig with accusations of (long-term) lying: think you should apologise too.

  150. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 2:43 pm

    (sorry, Jemand = German for ‘Someone’, duh)

  151. technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 2:42 pm

    “think you should apologise too.”

    For telling the truth!, technicolour, it is there in front of your eyes, Craig made it up, he lied!.

  152. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 3:03 pm

    Nope, how has he lied? He said ‘your stance’ – a stance he read from the fact that instead of acknowledging or commenting on the murders of Chechens, you immediately replied ‘what about the Iraqis’ (or words to that effect). It is, at the very most, a misunderstanding, which you could have corrected quite easily, and without bombastic accusations.

  153. technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 3:03 pm

    What you are now saying is/would be a falsehood in every respect!.

    There NO ambiguity in my first post….

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 12:00 pm

    “Strange, you missed 100,000 dead in Chechnya.”

    Lets not forget, millions dead in Iraq.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/13173659825/

    I was agreeing with Craigs post, and pointing out “one is as bad as the other”, also, check the link I gave!, which proves the point, there was no other interpretation that could have been drawn from my post!. Craig made it up, he lied!.

  154. That Yarosh sounds like another mouthy clown.

    “Last week, a proposal was submitted to the Ukrainian parliament, suggesting that Right Sector be transformed into a regular unit of the armed forces.”

    Hitler did that with the Brownshirts after whacking their leadership, even though they’d helped him to power.

    The UK did it with their Loyalist terrorists when they formed the UDR. Of course many of them were whacked as well after they’d served their purpose.

    Par for the course.

    I hope they don’t whack Mr Yarosh, though I can see them doing that and blaming it on Vlad. He’s already got an international warrant out for this thug.

    The only way the neocon failure in Syria and Ukraine makes sense, if the US isn’t to be viewed as totally incompetent, is that there are forces in the US who are cooperating with Russia to undermine the ambition of neocons.

  155. technicolour

    18 Mar, 2014 - 3:43 pm

    Yes, the link helps clarify – I don’t tend to click on links unless I know the source, and it seems Craig doesn’t either. Still no lie involved! I had exactly the same feeling about your stance from your post; glad to know I was wrong, but I wasn’t ‘lying’. I can see it must be hurtful to be got wrong, but that’s the perils of the internet message board for you, I’m afraid, especially on such emotional issues.

  156. “Still no lie involved!”

    technicolour 18 Mar, 2014 – 3:43 pm

    It should be noted that when I posted back to Craig there was no retraction or explanation, apology….

    Someone 16 Mar, 2014 – 1:31 pm

    ““You do not honour them by your stance that dead Chechens don’t matter.”

    I was pointing out that both sides have killed many people. I NEVER said that “Chechens don’t matter”, you Craig have lied, so please don’t make things up!, makes you look an idiot.”

  157. Members of the recently established POGROM seem inclined to dust off veteran commentators.

    Grammarians with a passion for verbose minutiae and concentrations of extraneous points having nothing but contrariness as their intent, run free.

    Run free free-range poultry !

  158. ESLO 18 Mar, 2014 – 2:00 pm

    “Clear ballot boxes and lack of secret ballots aid vote fixing because those who might wish to vote against might be intimidated into not doing so as a result of their views being made public, especially with Putin’s armed goons in close proximity. It used to be the case in the UK (pre 1832) that the way everyone voted was a matter of public record, the resulting shenanigans was one of the reasons why civilised countries moved to secret ballots.”

    You are avoiding the issue. How will their views be made public? If voters are concerned they can fold their voting slip. How then can “Putin’s armed goons” see which way they voted? The most common way of fixing an election is ‘ballot stuffing’ which is more difficult with transparent boxes.

    Many Western democracies including France use them:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_France

    The EC provides them to African countries to prevent vote rigging:
    http://www.sachajournals.com/user/image/ajss2013ghn002.pdf

    And a Danish manufacturer of transparent ballot boxes supplies the United Nations with them:
    http://www.cphelect.com/transparent-ballot-box

    Please explain HOW transparent boxes aid vote fixing, and why you are only concerned about their use in Crimea, as opposed to, say, France.

  159. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    18 Mar, 2014 - 7:31 pm

    A Nought

    “Please explain HOW transparent boxes aid vote fixing, and why you are only concerned about their use in Crimea, as opposed to, say, France.”
    ______________________

    If I might presume to answer on ESLO’s behalf : perhaps because, in France, referenda are not carried out against a background of foreign soldiers and mercenaries standing at the voting stations?

    *************

    Be a chimp, not a chump!

  160. Someone, no, it’s you that appears deceptive, not Craig . You commented about the dead in Iraq in order to counter Craig’s highlighting of the dead in Chechnya; this is clear from the context. It was a callous piece of whataboutery, and Craig was quite right to challenge you on it. Craig was also replying to one of the BNP “putinistas”; I recognised Black Jelly’s style even if you did not.

  161. Habbabkuk, don’t you be a chimpy chump. A Node has clearly shown that ESLO has seized upon something insignificant. That doesn’t make the referendum right, but ESLO should just say “oh, thanks, I didn’t know that”.

  162. “Someone, no, it’s you that appears deceptive, not Craig .”

    Clark,

    The FACTS are above, I will let them speak for me.

  163. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    18 Mar, 2014 - 10:34 pm

    Clark

    “A Node has clearly shown that ESLO has seized upon something insignificant.”
    __________________

    If insignificance were a criterion for commenting on this blog, there would be a massive exodus of Eminences. Starting, perhaps with Mary and her comments about the Duchess of Cambridge’s shoes.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “..but ESLO should just say “oh, thanks, I didn’t know that”.”
    _________________

    That assumes that ESLO didn’t know. What’s your evidence for so assuming?

  164. Habbabkuk, do you really want to argue about that? Look at this comments section; it’s a disgrace! I thought you said you were doing quality control.

  165. Craig why the “hate fest” against Putin?
    YOU seem to have issues.
    Anyone that offers a different opinion is either a “putinista”, whatever that is,do YOU even know?
    OR
    you just ignore them.
    BTW
    as YOU support centralised authorities like western representative democracy ,YOU ALSO SUPPORT PUTIN!
    As a Direct Democracy supportter I do NOT support Putin.YOU CRAIG are more to blame for Putin having power than me!!!..but I do not expect an apology,not from a polition!
    Centralised authorities are elected dictatorships and always produces corrupt leaders.Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely,did you not know this? Or had you not noticed that the UK and USA was been run by war criminals and paedophiles from 1945 to 2000? and 1000′s of Dead South american children are ignored in Craigs fantasy island! But shoot a Chechnayan and you will never hear the end!!!!
    Or do you just blame Russian and foreign centralised authorities and see no war criminals and paedophiles in the UK centralised authorities?
    FYI
    Direct democracies don’t just arrest war criminals and paedophiles ,even if they are politions, they also arrest criminal bankers.Please check Iceland for an example!
    MEANWHILE IN REALITY…SOMEWHERE NEAR KIEV
    It was the Western centralised authority financing a Neo Nazi coup that caused this situation!!
    ..OR are you still in denial of this FACT!
    SO Where is YOUR irrational hatred aimed at “obamanistas”?
    Let the Ukrainians sort this out themselves.Your opinion on the referendum is irrelevant!
    BTW the vote seemed very fair and even the Crimean Tartars voted to join the Russian Federation instead of a Nazi Ukraine!
    …and Craig is supportting Neo Nazis the new liberal thing? Many German Nazis considered themselves liberal and progressive, I think you have been in coalition with the tories for too long!!

  166. No chance for a campaign? On 16 March, While Craig was writing that, Gary Brecher was writing this: “Unlike many Eastern Ukrainians, who speak Russian and consider themselves culturally but not politically Russian, Crimeans identify strongly as Russians, politically and culturally. They were very unhappy when Yeltsin let Crimea go to Ukraine after the breakup of the USSR. Nobody’s mentioning it, but the fact is that there was already a referendum in Crimea on staying with Ukraine or rejoining Russia.

    “On January 20, 1991, Crimeans voted to restore their ties with Russia by almost the same percentage (93.2%) we saw in today’s election—where, according to the BBC, 93% of Crimean voters once again voted Russian.

    “That’s a remarkably consistent vote, considering what a lot of chaos and poverty have encompassed the region since 1991. Back then, of course, no one in the West took the results seriously, because everyone knew the USSR was evil and anyone defecting from it was good. But it might be worth remembering that election now–because with Russian economic and military power backing them, the Crimeans’ vote might actually count.”

    http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/

    The capitalism Putin represents is a vast improvement on the western model trialled so ruthlessly in the Yeltsin years, with its catastrophic die-off. Putin’s grannies no longer die in the snow, and Parliament is not bombed into submission. Britain, awash in Russian oligarch money, is in no position to judge. Putin is “adventurist” only in the sense that the Kaiser was supposedly “adventurist” for congratulating Kruger on defeating the Jameson Raid, which was so akin to this fascist putsch.

  167. No chance for a campaign? On 16 March, While Craig was writing that, Gary Brecher was writing this:

    Unlike many Eastern Ukrainians, who speak Russian and consider themselves culturally but not politically Russian, Crimeans identify strongly as Russians, politically and culturally. They were very unhappy when Yeltsin let Crimea go to Ukraine after the breakup of the USSR. Nobody’s mentioning it, but the fact is that there was already a referendum in Crimea on staying with Ukraine or rejoining Russia.

    On January 20, 1991, Crimeans voted to restore their ties with Russia by almost the same percentage (93.2%) we saw in today’s election—where, according to the BBC, 93% of Crimean voters once again voted Russian.

    That’s a remarkably consistent vote, considering what a lot of chaos and poverty have encompassed the region since 1991. Back then, of course, no one in the West took the results seriously, because everyone knew the USSR was evil and anyone defecting from it was good. But it might be worth remembering that election now–because with Russian economic and military power backing them, the Crimeans’ vote might actually count.

    The capitalism Putin represents is a vast improvement on the western model trialled so ruthlessly in the Yeltsin years, with its catastrophic die-off. Putin’s grannies no longer die in the snow, and Parliament is not bombed into submission. Britain, awash in Russian oligarch money, is in no position to judge. Putin is “adventurist” only in the sense that the Kaiser was supposedly “adventurist” for congratulating Kruger on defeating the Jameson Raid, which was so akin to this fascist putsch.

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted by Expathos