Pyongyang Style Unionist Propaganda

by craig on April 23, 2014 1:25 pm in Uncategorized

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The unionists were worried that the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn might remind Scots of their national history.  So they brilliantly have co-opted the MOD to counter any possible effect on popular perception, by holding British Armed Forces Day in the same location on the same date as the celebrations of Bannockburn (28-9 June 2014).

Armed Forces Day is held every year at Edinburgh.  It has never been held on the site outside Stirling before.  Suddenly to move it there, on the same day as a long-planned event already attracting tens of thousands of people, can hardly be a coincidence.  I just watched a live broadcast of a session of a committee of  the Scottish Parliament where officials of Stirling Council refused to answer questions as to who took the decision to hold the same events on the same day.  They did so on the grounds there will be an independent audit of this ludicrous decision.  Evidence given to the committee said that the late addition of the MOD event had caused ticket numbers for the Bannockburn event to be cut by over half.

STIRLING COUNCIL IS RUN BY A NEW LABOUR AND CONSERVATIVE COALITION of unionists aimed to keep the largest party – the SNP – out of power. A more interesting question is the decision making process in the MOD that led to this gross abuse of the army for political propaganda purposes.

This demeaning of the commemoration of Bannockburn is yet another Bitter Together initiative that will backfire spectacularly.  Nobody in Scotland was going to base their vote on a battle that happened seven hundred years ago.  But the banding together of Labour and Tories to attempt to downplay the sacrifice and cause, to offer a gross and deliberate insult to the memory of those who fought and died for their country, is going to upset an awful lot of people.

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112 Comments

  1. Shameless AND clueless opportunist numbskulls.

    A truly idiotic and insensitive fix.

    Every time i think Bitter Together can’t stoop any lower or shoot themsleves in the foot even more they surpass themselves.

  2. “Celebration of Bannockburn” – slip of the pen demonstrates the real face of nationalism I’m afraid. Some of us never celebrate people killing each other.

  3. ESLO

    Your choice. I shall be celebrating.

  4. Tutuanatiaratoo

    23 Apr, 2014 - 2:12 pm

    I honestly believe that if they could Bitter Together would organise mass hangings for treason to coincide with the Bannockburn celebrations.

    However that said, let’s do one thing right. Let’s celebrate the history of Scotlands soldiers and fighting men properly. Link it with Bannockburn as Scots soldiers fought there too and won a glorious battle.

    Let’s not stoop to their level and be bitter towards anyone now.

  5. Tutuanatiaratoo

    I agree – but that does not mean I can’t dislike Edward II.

  6. And his dad.

  7. “Some of us never celebrate people killing each other.”

    Quite right. But Robert the Bruce was a freedom-fighter. In 1375 John Barbour wrote:

    “A! Fredome is a noble thing!”

    This was embodied in the ‘Declaration of Arbroath’ “For we fight not for glory, nor riches, nor honour, but for freedom alone, which no man gives up except with his life.”

    An even greater freedom could ensue if Scotland refuses to provide a base for the Trident replacement. All of the UK’s nuclear facility is at Faslane/Coulport. Last week I got to meet Chris Bambery whose “A People’s History of Scotland” will be shortly available. The quotes aboveare from that book. It is improving my knowledge of Scottish history.

    http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/chris+bambery/a+people27s+history+of+scotland/10115406/

  8. Culloden.

  9. Really like connecting the site for the celebration of Bannockburn to Sterling with what the same people are trying to do in North Korea – i. e., reporting all its alleged excesses in the hope that its citizenry will overthrow it the next time the Pentagon hits it with another disaster.

  10. Ba'al Zevul (Flames 'R' Us)

    23 Apr, 2014 - 2:35 pm

    Such a parcel of Walter Scottery in the nation. Bannockburn was a pissing contest between two bunches of Normans, ffs. If it had been a peoples’ revolution, that would be different. But it was all about deciding the ownership of the serfs – or those that survived being in the infantry. As usual, come to think of it.

  11. Some of us never celebrate people killing each other.

    Isn’t that what the British armed forces day is about?

  12. Comrade Kim Jong Zevul -

    “If it had been a peoples’ revolution, that would be different. But it was all about deciding the ownership of the serfs – or those that survived being in the infantry. As usual, come to think of it.”

    That’s how things were then and your average serf wouldn’t have known or expected anything better. Anyway, more recent history shows that “peoples’ revolutions” are also just a transfer of the serfs to very much more brutal ownership.

    __________________________

    Kathy

    “Some of us never celebrate people killing each other. Isn’t that what the British armed forces day is about?”

    No.

  13. The odious Brown renamed Veterans’ Day as Armed Forces Day. Who else. He also founded the Elizabeth Cross. All part of the propaganda for offensive war.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Cross

    It says here that it is centred on Stirling this year. So Brown and the Scottish NuLabour crowd will feature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Day_(United_Kingdom)

    Andy Murray was made a Freeman of the city of Stirling today. He blubbed through his acceptance speech. Poor lad.

  14. Its like everything else that Westminster does, and will have the same effect. It will increase the YES vote

  15. Ba'al Zevul (Flames 'R' Us)

    23 Apr, 2014 - 3:09 pm

    That’s how things were then

    I thought that would go without saying. But naturally, it didn’t.

    more recent history shows that “peoples’ revolutions” are also just a transfer of the serfs to very much more brutal ownership.

    Which would have been a cause for concern in the specific context of Bannockburn, and very good reason to memorialise it. My point – to labour it for your benefit – was that Bannockburn wasn’t actually for the benefit of the Scots or English but for that of their Norman feudal overlords. It wasn’t a glorious victory for the Scots, at the end of the day, but a profitable investment by some Normans. In mitigation, unlike today’s politicians and investment bankers, the beneficiaries were actually present, and at some hazard of their lives.

    What wasn’t how things were then, btw, was murdering your rival in front of a monastery altar, which is what Bruce had previously done to John Comyn – a much more determinedly pro-Scottish figure than the Bruce. Very little about this in the standard myth.

  16. Something similar happened at the anti-Trident (and heavily YES-leaning) rally in George Square on 5 April. All the publicity that went out beforehand said that the rally would set off at 11 a.m. On the Thursday before the rally, Glasgow City Council said we had to set off at 10.30, so anyone arriving at George Square would’ve found themselves in an empty George Square with the exception of a few stalls. Dunno if it would’ve been much bigger, but the rally, while energetic and positive, was disappointing in numbers.

  17. Anon,

    All military parades are,in effect,dick-waving contests of varying stripe.

    To suggest there isn’t a jingoistic element or celebratory echoes of past murderous events is nonsense.

    I suspect you know this but you do seem to be in a particularly trollish mood today,moreso than usual-were this possible.

  18. “It is improving my knowledge of Scottish history.”

    Let’s improve it a little more. Robert de Brus was part of the Norman aristocracy, rich land owners who kept the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland in slavery. The only thing they fought for was power and wealth for themselves.

  19. Fred

    Absolute Rubbish. Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

    “As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself”.

  20. Fred, I’m trying to improve my understanding by consulting historians with an in-depth knowledge not from those who regurgitate Wikipedia entries. Yes, it was, and still is, wealthy people who perpetuate a livelihood from stealing the world’s resources, who lead others into battle from behind. Blair is one of the more recent examples, but please, if you want to improve my knowledge you have to amass some of your own first.

  21. Ba'al Zevul (Flames 'R' Us)

    23 Apr, 2014 - 4:09 pm

    “As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself”.

    By Alastair de Campbell? 6 years after Bannockburn, and signed by the then equivalent of the Scottish Landowners’ Association. Still, as Anon says, that was how things were done then. Economic power sprang from land and taxable tenants. The Scots didn’t win anything, and a lot of them were killed in the process.

  22. UK SUBSERVIENCE TO THE U.S. EMPIRE

    The elephant in the room in the debate on independence for Scotland is the UK’s absolute subservience to the US Empire. Which the UK Muppet Stream Media treats as an absolute taboo.

    A taboo entertainingly broken on Media Lens Message Board –

    “Just hastened the demise of their Western empire, which is now on its very last legs. In these Interesting, inevitably changing Times, the little nations of The Isles might well hope to thrive better, in some sort of more egalitarian confederacy than hitherto – including England, naturally, once it’s shaken off the dead hand of the English-raj class of parasitical crooks. England’s urgent business to do, in the next fifteen-to-twenty years, with luck. But when Scotland gets free, it will be, we may reasonably hope, the death knell of not just the contemptible uk-state, but of the monstrous USuk entity too, as the whole USukisnato-axis follows the Warsaw Pact down the tubes.”

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1398182048.html

    ER, Indeed!

    A reply to ‘Macmillan’s sell-out a vital lesson for Scotland,’ by The Editors – April 22, 2014, 11:05 am – Media Lens Message Board -

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1398161143.html

    Does an independent Scotland also give the US Empire ‘a kick in the bollock’s’ in additition the UK establishment? By greatly weakening the European – and world – influence of the US Empire’s number one satrap?

    > > “Craig, I think you should campaign for a different type of independence. Not Scotland breaking away from the rest of the UK, but the common folk of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales finding a way to divorce themselves from the deep state/Establishment maggots who run the place, and who are really responsible for the crimes that we lament on this blog.” – King of Welsh Noir

    >“I agree with the aim – I just think the break-up of the UK is the kind of kick in the bollocks of the Establishment that will assist the process.” – Craig Murray

    - http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/positive-headlines/#comment-453600

    Yes, we can! ; )

    There were some similar (ER, forthright) opinions in a post on the Adam Werrity Affair on the idea that the UK and US might still be ‘Allies’ by any normal understanding of the term. Tom Welch’s post was a succinct summary of a rambling diatribe. ; )

    - ‘Mathew Gould and Adam Werrity’ – Craig Murray blog – October 14, 2011 –

    - http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/10/matthew-gould-and-adam-werritty/#comment-323913

  23. In 1603 James VI of Scotland became James I of England and hence the whole of the UK. The move for Scottish independence is a modern phenomenon and part of the movement for democracy worldwide. Thus arguments about events before the 19th century are inapplicable.

  24. Mike Mac Fhionghuin

    23 Apr, 2014 - 4:59 pm

    Abe, please study some history before you post, eh?

  25. This article is nationalist propaganda decrying nationalist propaganda. Hilarious. Well the writer did hone his trade working for the British empire he now berates.

    Some of us will be a tad more Scottish than others if you get me.

  26. Plastic People of the Universe

    23 Apr, 2014 - 5:15 pm

    “Not Scotland breaking away from the rest of the UK, but the common folk of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales finding a way to divorce themselves from the deep state/Establishment maggots who run the place, and who are really responsible for the crimes that we lament on this blog.”

    In the 70′s Gates’ shop at CIA viewed ethnic and cultural divergence as the USSR’s achille’s heel. This was fairly prescient, as cracks in the Warsaw Pact resulted not from satellites rebelling against Soviets but from divergent approaches to repressing domestic populations. The repressive analog for the NATO bloc today is austerity, since economic rights are the primary threat to the regimes. Germans are the hard-liners again. Merkel is the Honecker of immiseration.

    Long story short, nationalist fissures help exterminate the maggots too.

  27. Mike Mac: I looked up “Bannockburn” in wikipedia. Bannockburn was a nationalist struggle against an occupier, but James VI was not an occupier. William I of Hanover successfully conquered James II, and he was then the king of the UK. James II’s descendant Bonnie Prince Charlie attempted the same thing with the help of Scottish supporter’s but his attempt failed, and so he was the king of the UK. That’s why I would him as making an unsuccessful attempt at secession. Hence I regard the SNP as a modern phenomenon. Which historical fact do you feel I’ve missed?

  28. (Corrected typos)
    Mike Mac: I looked up “Bannockburn” in wikipedia. Bannockburn was a nationalist struggle against an occupier, but James VI was not an occupier. William I of Hanover successfully conquered James II, and he was then the king of the UK. James II’s descendant Bonnie Prince Charlie attempted the same thing with the help of Scottish supporters but his attempt failed, and so he was never the king of the UK. That’s why I would him as making an unsuccessful attempt at secession. Hence I regard the SNP as a modern phenomenon. Which historical fact do you feel I’ve missed?

  29. Whatever your views on ancient battles, its still part of Scotland’s history. To use the British army as a political football is a disgrace. This will simply reaffirm the view held by many Scots that Labour are more interested in power in Westminster than representing the views and aspirations of the people of Scotland.
    I live in East Dunbartonshire and we also are under the yoke of a Labour/Tory unholy alliance and a pigs ear they are making of the place!

  30. “Let’s improve it a little more. Robert de Brus was part of the Norman aristocracy, rich land owners who kept the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland in slavery. The only thing they fought for was power and wealth for themselves.”

    Well, let me correct your total lack of understanding. The fact that Bruce had a great, great, great grandfather who was Norman did not make him one. He was born in Scotland and descended from as many Scots as from Normans. The Chronical of Lanercost of the day (English in case you don’t know it) put it pretty bluntly about the Bruce: “He was a Scot so he joined the Scots.”

    Was he noble and not commoner, Yes. He was a direct descendant of of SCOTTISH royalty, not Norman. The calumnies against the Bruce are nothing but British propaganda, the usual attempts to destroy a nation’s sense of nationhood that is common to the British style of rule.

  31. In the below the line the line comments here about the awfulness of celebrating the key victory that helped forge our nation, and in the “Braveheart, Braveheart, BRAVEHEART!” taunts endured daily, we witness the concerted efforts of those who would strip us of our sense of self. Their goal is to delegitimise the history and the mythology that challenges the dominance of their British nationalism.

    There is method to their madness, and I think those of Nationalist persuasion – most of us – have fallen for it. We are sheepishly apologetic and readily agree to demean and dismiss Bravehearts and Braveheatism. We deny “Ourselves” in doing so.

    The Unionist gambit seeks to denigrate Scotland’s historical fight for freedom against a belligerent neighbour whilst vigorously promoting Britain’s colonial wars and continental wars.

    They would have us forget Bannockburn and how the bravery and guile of brave men helped forge this nation and temper our national character.

    Mythologies are an essential ingredient of the glue than binds a people and creates a national identity. That is why icons of Union and Empire were paraded endlessly by the broadcast media in London’s Olympic pageant of 2012.

    None speaks to the heart of our people like the deeds and the persona of Wallace and events like Bannockburn, and no Scot should feel embarrassed to embrace that narrative, so shamefully demeaned and ridiculed by Westminster’s pet jocks and their counterparts in Holyrood.

    Whatever you self-identify as, carries with it an encyclopaedia’s-worth of historical and cultural defining referential events. They are the very essence of a polity’s sense of itself. They have been used and abused since the dawn of civilization by the unscrupulous to further their nefarious ends, and by visionaries to build nations.

    Scotland has a rich and glorious narrative from which to hew an identity and it is on the cusp of creating a richer one yet. The battles of independence continue to this day and the prize not yet won.

    We can acknowledge and embrace our inner braveheart and celebrate it, or spurn it and cringe. But I would ask you to consider who it is that would have us deny and dissolve the glue that binds us, and why they would have you cringe.

    It is they who dismiss and delegitimise national aspiration and scorn the enabling and inspiring notion that tomorrow can be better than today.

    Their message is that this is as good as it gets. Their only plan is to tell us what we CAN’T do.

    The past determines the present, and the present, the future, and ours awaits.

    Of course, this does not mean that anyone will make a decision on September 18 solely on the basis of ancient history and mythology, but that we should look to the past for an understanding of how we came to be who we are today, in order that we may more fully contextualize the alternatives that confront us in this referendum, and choose the direction of our tomorrows.

  32. Gordon Kennedy

    23 Apr, 2014 - 7:13 pm

    Bannockburn was about “if you control Stirling you control Scotland”. Most countries celebrate victories over their neighbours Scots may just decide to celebrate Red Clydeside day in the future without some chap in England deciding it’s not something we want to encourage in “the jocks”

    Army day in Stirling? Pmsl Only an indication only of how close Westminster worries the vote will be

  33. Stewart Baillie

    23 Apr, 2014 - 8:00 pm

    Christian Wright, who are you man?
    What a speech. Hats off to you, inspirational, well done.

  34. Ruaraidh Mac

    23 Apr, 2014 - 8:03 pm

    Abe Rene. “Which historical fact do you think I’ve missed?” The main historical fact you try to make, you numpty – William I of HANOVER? Hahahahahahaha.

  35. Christian Wright

    Yes, how dare the Scots take pride in their own history rather than taking on the mantle of drunk subsidy junkies assigned to them by their colonial overlords? The arrogance is unbelievable not to mention counter-productive.

  36. Resident Dissident

    23 Apr, 2014 - 8:36 pm

    History demonstrates that little good ever came out of whipping up nationalism. Those who wish to celebrate Bannockburn should complain too loudly when the English nationalists start to celebrate Culloden and other idiocies.

  37. “Absolute Rubbish. Declaration of Arbroath, 1320″

    Which had nothing whatever to do with the Scots people, just medieval politics by the clergy.

    Then in 1385 the Scots and their French allies invaded England. Conveniently forgotten by the Nationalists pretending to be the oppressed victims of English aggression is how many times Scotland invaded England.

  38. “Some of us never celebrate people killing each other.”

    And some of us celebrate defending our right to self-determination and freedom from oppression, even when the price is bloodshed.

    Bannockburn was a pissing contest between two bunches of Normans, ffs. If it had been a peoples’ revolution, that would be different. But it was all about deciding the ownership of the serfs – or those that survived being in the infantry.

    And yet there were several rebellions in Scotland which rose up entirely without leadership from any noble lord or knight. True, it wasn’t exactly the start of a republican revolution, but neither were the serfs simple bystanders in the fight.

    My point – to labour it for your benefit – was that Bannockburn wasn’t actually for the benefit of the Scots or English but for that of their Norman feudal overlords. It wasn’t a glorious victory for the Scots, at the end of the day, but a profitable investment by some Normans.

    And yet why does nearly all the literature of the time period make clear distinctions between the nations of Scotland and England where it didn’t for England and France? The nations were similar to each other, but they were still considered distinct, owing to the integration of Norman customs into the Gaelic court, as opposed to the outright conquest of England by the Normans.

    Remember the Highland clearances, the Dress Act, the Alien Act? That would’ve happened if the Scots lost Bannockburn, and worse, since we know exactly what Edward did to his conquests. Ask the Welsh if they think things would’ve been any different if they defeated Edward’s invasion – or the Irish, for that matter. Wales had its sovereignty utterly crushed; Welsh boys drafted to fight wars in countries they had no quarrel with; its language and culture decimated and outlawed.

    Robert de Brus was part of the Norman aristocracy, rich land owners who kept the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland in slavery. The only thing they fought for was power and wealth for themselves.

    Robert’s mother was the Countess of Carrick, and descendent of a long line of Gallovidian nobility stretching back to before the foundation of the Kingdom of Alba; his father was of the Annandale family established in Scotland by King David 150 years before the Bruce was born. The Norman aristocracy merged with the existing Gaelic nobility following reforms by the Gaelic king David.

    This phenomenon of highlighting Robert’s Norman past is usually brought up to de-legitimise the wars of independence, and has a rather ethnic edge to it – as if Normans didn’t count as “real Scots” even after having settled in Scotland for hundreds of years. Well in that case, who in Scottish history IS a “real Scot”? Irish, Picts, Celts, Britons, Angles, Normans, Danes – all have lived in Scotland a long, long time, and all can claim to be Scots. That’s why the ethnic argument falls flat.

    This article is nationalist propaganda decrying nationalist propaganda.

    I agree, but not all nationalisms are created equal. Or propaganda: One set of nationalist propaganda aims to showcase a small nation’s struggle to assert its independence against a larger invading foe. The other promotes the nostalgia of imperialism and conquest.

  39. Baal Zevul

    “I thought that would go without saying. But naturally, it didn’t.”

    Well it does need saying, because you are trying to apply your historicism to a period when a serf could not have known or envisaged anything other than serfdom . Furthermore, you are making the mistake of believing a lord was aware that he was was not necessarily any better than a serf, which in this context is a modern idea. In the medieval period a serf lived and died by his lord. He did not question it – he had no reason to. He would have given his life at Bannockburn with pride.

  40. “Fred, I’m trying to improve my understanding by consulting historians with an in-depth knowledge not from those who regurgitate Wikipedia entries. Yes, it was, and still is, wealthy people who perpetuate a livelihood from stealing the world’s resources, who lead others into battle from behind. Blair is one of the more recent examples, but please, if you want to improve my knowledge you have to amass some of your own first.”

    Well here you are, a website that will give you insight into the minds of the people who lived here, a couple of books you won’t find elsewhere and some links to historic documents and maps.

    http://www.graven-images.org.uk/

  41. Interesting to see commenters obtruding nationalism into the discussion when our host never said the word. What’s being discussed here is not nationalism but self-determination. And self-determination of peoples is a peremptory norm of international law.

  42. “Interesting to see commenters obtruding nationalism into the discussion when our host never said the word. What’s being discussed here is not nationalism but self-determination. And self-determination of peoples is a peremptory norm of international law.”

    Scots get to vote for their local council, then they get to vote for a SMP at Holyrood, then they vote for a MP at Westminster, then they vote for an MEP in Europe.

    How much more self determination do they want?

  43. Scots need at least enough self-determination to prevent an illegitimate british state from involving them in serious crimes of concern to the international community such as aggression or systematic torture. Can’t vote against that, Can you? Then under the circumstances the internal self-determination you cite is not sufficient.

  44. “Scots need at least enough self-determination to prevent an illegitimate british state from involving them in serious crimes of concern to the international community such as aggression or systematic torture. Can’t vote against that, Can you? Then under the circumstances the internal self-determination you cite is not sufficient.”

    Do you know I once had a discussion with a load of Scots, on a Scottish forum, about the evils of torture. They kept on going on about some terrorist with a time bomb strapped to a sweet little girl and there only being 24 hours to rescue her, something like that, I forget the details. Anyway the gist of it is that the vast majority of these people seemed to think that torture wasn’t too bad a thing actually, so long as it was someone else being tortured of course.

    So by self determination you mean you want to rule the world, thought so.

  45. You were on the internet once and some disembodied voice said something, well Q.E.D! Well and truly proven. And ‘These people’ makes you sound like a prim Dixie spinster going on about negroes who don’t know their place.

    That was not top-drawer argumentation, sad to say. That ‘rule the world’ non sequitur is just silly, dangling out there. Please at least try to demonstrate that you know what I’m talking about or I shall be bored.

  46. “That was not top-drawer argumentation, sad to say. That ‘rule the world’ non sequitur is just silly, dangling out there. Please at least try to demonstrate that you know what I’m talking about or I shall be bored.”

    It’s quite easy, your claims that Scots do not have self determination are demonstrable bullshit.

    When asked to explain you say that you don’t have self determination because you can’t force your ethics and values onto everyone.

    So what of those in Scotland who believe that torture of terrorists was justifiable? Their self determination doesn’t matter.

  47. Ah, thank you, now I see what the problem is.

    No, those nobodies you hobnobbed with need not be listened to on torture. Or aggression. Or gassing Jews or lynching niggers, or exterminating Palestinians or those sorts of things. They are, by universal acclamation and binding law, inexcusable acts.

    Any government officials who said as much would be criminals acquiescent or complicit in the act. But when the canaille makes beer-breathed pronouncements to that effect, they’re victims, nothing more, pawns of unlawful government hate speech.

  48. “History demonstrates that little good ever came out of whipping up nationalism. Those who wish to celebrate Bannockburn should complain too loudly when the English nationalists start to celebrate Culloden and other idiocies.”

    So you think Polish independence and the fall of the Iron Curtain were bad things, to give but one of many examples? That had quite a lot to do with nationalism. So did the Risorgimento. A bad thing? Greek independence?

    A clue. Where is Bannockburn? Where did Edward II and his forces live? Where did the Scottish side live?

    I am an anti-militarist, but not a pacifist. I deplore aggressive war. Resisting invasion of your own country is an act that does deserve celebration.

  49. The Scots need self-determination to have the sort of society they want which is certainly light-years away from the Westminster model.

  50. “No, those nobodies you hobnobbed with need not be listened to on torture. Or aggression. Or gassing Jews or lynching niggers, or exterminating Palestinians or those sorts of things. They are, by universal acclamation and binding law, inexcusable acts.”

    But Britain has a history of using torture, in WWII there was, among others, the London Cage. It was run by a man called Alexander Scotland.

    So by every legal definition Scots do have self determination but you reserve the right to claim they don’t, yet you cite the law when saying you have the right to disregard a large section, perhaps the majority of the population.

    You have offered no evidence that a future government of Scotland would share your convictions and disregard the wishes of it’s people.

  51. “The Scots need self-determination to have the sort of society they want which is certainly light-years away from the Westminster model.”

    Then why has the SNP put so much effort into preventing Scots from having the society they want?

    The majority of young men in Glasgow seem to want to go along to football grounds and chant racist slogans but they have passed laws to criminalise it.

    Scots do have self determination, they pass their own laws, govern their own society, that’s what Holyrood is for. So if you don’t have the society you want blame them not Westminster.

  52. Bored now. If I wanted illogic and word salad I could go to a pub and talk to the first drunk E I meet.

    Come back when you’ve caught up on your ABCs
    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/UniversalHumanRightsInstruments.aspx

  53. “Come back when you’ve caught up on your ABCs”

    You show me one definition of self determination which says Scotland doesn’t have it.

    It’s just Nationalist propaganda and you know it.

    And it’s an insult to countries which actually don’t have it, try telling a Palestinian Scotland doesn’t have self determination and they will laugh in your face and rightly so.

  54. Oh dear, you mean that fake democracy you vote for with such poignant pride? Your choice of shite sandwich or shite sandwich Deluxe? It fails to meet the democratic standards of ICCPR Article 25B (these are the fundamentals that aren’t taught in vocational schools.) That’s alright for ancestral serfs, perhaps. Africans wouldn’t put up with it. They have modern constitutions.

  55. Typical of the British colonial mindset – when all else fails raise the sectarian nonsense. It is getting quite tedious now as it is so predictable.

  56. Not sure it’s quite fair to indict old Fred for the colonial mindset. The cleverest strivers of obscure origin might have that. Perhaps some of those on the Honours List (but not the ones I know well, to be sure.) But ordinary limeys, it’s piteous what they will submit to. Ubiquitous surveillance by scolding cameras, security laws that set them bowing and scraping to a wide variety of poorly-educated martinets, libel laws protecting their social superiors. Their head of state’s Obama’s butler. A great mass of servile toadies desperate to kick anyone lower.

    Who wouldn’t do a quick Slovenia to break from that?

  57. This makes Aberdeen council seem modern. Bannockburn is a world famous battle that is in the heart of every scot. The celebration is not for the killing of the larger English occupational army, but the sense that, against the odds, anything is possible.
    I dont remember anybody celebrating 300yrs of the union in 307, there was no events held by Stirling council then. Maybe even they knew it was nothing to celebrate over.
    Of all the nations to gain independence from the UK, none have been in a better position than Scotland is today. Yet not a single one of these now independent nations has ever asked Westminster to run their affairs for them again. Wonder why.

  58. This makes Aberdeen council seem modern. Bannockburn is a world famous battle that is in the heart of every scot. The celebration is not for the killing of the larger English occupational army, but the sense that, against the odds, anything is possible.
    I dont remember anybody celebrating 300yrs of the union in 2007, there was no events held by Stirling council then. Maybe even they knew it was nothing to celebrate over.
    Of all the nations to gain independence from the UK, none have been in a better position than Scotland is today. Yet not a single one of these now independent nations has ever asked Westminster to run their affairs for them again. Wonder why.

  59. Not to dampen the flow of hopefulness I wish to express my disappointment with Hope and Change in my own Land of Freedom. Subsequent to the elation many felt in 2008 I am reminded of the sober words;

    “Say hello to the new boss; same as the old boss”

  60. “gross abuse of the army for political propaganda purposes.” – Craig, you’ve only just realised?

  61. “Typical of the British colonial mindset – when all else fails raise the sectarian nonsense. It is getting quite tedious now as it is so predictable.”

    What I say is true, nobody allowed to say anything true in this campaign?

    People where I live don’t want Gaelic road signs, hardly anybody here speaks Gaelic hardly anybody here ever has, our heritage was Norse.

    The government at Westminster never forced them to have a culture they don’t want, the government at Holirood did.

  62. “But ordinary limeys, it’s piteous what they will submit to. Ubiquitous surveillance by scolding cameras, security laws that set them bowing and scraping to a wide variety of poorly-educated martinets, libel laws protecting their social superiors.”

    Don’t know where you live but we don’t have any libel laws in Scotland.

    BTW You keep spelling your name wrong, only ever needed to type mine in the once.

  63. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    24 Apr, 2014 - 9:20 am

    Well it does need saying, because you are trying to apply your historicism to a period when a serf could not have known or envisaged anything other than serfdom .

    Which is actually precisely my point. I am arguing against the romantic interpretation of Bannockburn as in any sense being a struggle for the freedom of the peasants. Please set your preconceptions of me as having some identifiable political perspective aside before interjecting irrelevances.

    I have as far as I am aware made no statement asserting that a feudal lord regarded himself as in any sense equal to his subordinates. I am fully conscious of the regard with which mediaeval (and many modern) lords hold themselves. I have worked for Old Etonians, after all. Straw man argument. Desist.

    As to a serf giving his life with pride for his feudal lord – I think you are intuiting too much. The Norman lords had the power of life and death over the strictly segregated caste of Gaelic and Saxon labourers and tenants which they effectively owned. ‘Giving your life with pride’ has never been an actuality, except, perhaps, in the context of the old Japanese military caste. It’s the sort of guff officers come out with when they know the battalion’s going to be wiped out. Nobody gives their life with pride. He gives his life with extreme reluctance, and under duress from his commander. And that’s the professional soldier – in those days very likely a foreign mercenary – not the conscripted farmworker.

    I am prepared to accept that the lords themselves subscribed to the nobility of what they thought they were doing, but history tells us repeatedly – follow the money – that it was for the basest of reasons.

    I was attempting to separate the romantic myth from the actuality. If Scottish independence is based on Walter Scottery, it will be a sham. It has to be based on practical, social and dare I say economic considerations. Consider the ’45 – another power struggle whipped up on the basis of pure romance, in order to place an alternative toff on the throne. Supposing Charles had won? What next? Ummm. Any plans?

    I support independence for Scotland, on the basis that the current UK government is not fit for purpose, and unlikely ever to be, principally because it is only concerned with the south-east. It has to be the Scots’ choice, however. And that choice has to be rational, informed, and above all (see Ireland ) not romantic.

  64. Ba’al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    I can see where you’re coming from, and like you I do not live in Scotland. But I am an old romantic. And if anyone wants to vote yes because they are moved by the poetry of Hugh MacDiarmid then who are we to argue? What I might get out of an independent Scotland is a role model to free Birmingham from the shackles of Westminster. Then, like Donetsk, we can perhaps have some kind of autonomy without restrictions placed upon us on how we spend our money.

  65. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    24 Apr, 2014 - 11:48 am

    Norman McCaig for me, John…

    http://www.oocities.org/william_brodie/maccaig/assynt.html

    Lived there for a bit, and he’s right on the money.

  66. I’m no nationalist but i will vote Yes.

    For no other reason than i got sick of the shrill bullshit of the likes of George Robertason and Alistair Darling et al.

    They present no real arguments other than apocalyptic visions and lies.

    A freemasonry of fearmongering fools.

  67. Big deal.

    ‘Cornish people granted minority status within UK
    The Cornish will gain the same status as the Scots, Welsh and Irish

    Cornwall could get ‘minority’ status
    Grant to help keep Cornish ‘alive’
    Rise in children who are Cornish

    Cornish people will be granted minority status under European rules for the protection of national minorities.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-27132035

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Cornwall.svg

    I hear that the Cornish language once classed as dead is coming back.

    The march of Cornishmen to London took place in 1497. They were mostly beaten at Deptford Bridge and the leaders were executed at Tyburn.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_Rebellion_of_1497

    And now all the Hooray Henrys have their second homes there.

  68. Thanks Ba’al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    “to men whose loyalty
    was so great it accepted their own betrayal
    by their own chiefs and whose descendants now
    are kept in their place
    by English businessmen and the indifference
    of a remote and ignorant government.”

    Norman McCaig.

  69. “.. to offer a gross and deliberate insult to the memory of those who fought and died for their country, is going to upset an awful lot of people.”

    What memory? It was 700 years ago. Nobody has a personal memory of a 700 year old medieval battle. They might have a memory of a written version of history as they learned it in school, but I can’t see how that could even be insulted. What really causes insult and upset is the rude hijacking of a day of celebration for a sneaky political end that shows no regard for local people’s traditions.

    I wonder how history will remember Tony the Blair and the Battle of Iraq in 700 years.

  70. foolish times

    24 Apr, 2014 - 3:17 pm

    William Wallace – Welsh speaker of Yr Hen Goglydd?

  71. doug scorgie

    24 Apr, 2014 - 3:39 pm

    Fred
    24 Apr, 2014 – 8:18 am

    “People where I live don’t want Gaelic road signs, hardly anybody here speaks Gaelic hardly anybody here ever has, our heritage was Norse.”

    So Fred you think that the English language is going to be forced out when Scotland becomes independent?

    You obviously haven’t sobered-up from last night!

  72. Jemand now links to

    Since 9/11 there has been an explosion in the number of books written about Islam. My local library has many books on the subject and nearly all of those books are written by Muslim apologists as well as Western scholars in an attempt to cover up the true nature of Islam. A typical whitewash is What Muslims Believe by John Bowker. The author interviews several Islamists from Britain on various topics. On the subject of wife beating pages 127 to 130, the Islamist tells us that the beating is a mild one aimed to prevent divorce and to keep the family intact. He goes on to explain that a husband can chastise his wife in private for infidelity and thus save her the humiliation of a public flogging. The Islamist conceals the fact that the sharia penalty for extramarital sex is stoning.

    ????
    http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/islam-scraping-off-the-whitewash/

    Warning – the highlight colour is bright pink.

    His link used to be something like http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/ ????

    How are your indigenous people Jemand? Saw some of them performing for the royal airheads the other day. Poor people. Like some circus.

  73. doug scorgie

    24 Apr, 2014 - 3:46 pm

    Fred
    24 Apr, 2014 – 8:23 am

    “BTW You keep spelling your name wrong, only ever needed to type mine in the once.”

    Excuse me Fred you said:

    “The government at Westminster never forced them to have a culture they don’t want, the government at Holirood did.”

    Its Holyrood Fred try to spell your country’s seat of government properly!

  74. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    24 Apr, 2014 - 3:52 pm

    I wonder how history will remember Tony the Blair and the Battle of Iraq in 700 years.

    With some bitterness as the New Mesopotamian Empire’s armies, having swept across a completely decadent Europe, invade the flooded ruins of London, meeting little resistance from the inhabitants of mud huts in malaria-infested Surbiton…:-)

  75. Thanks for clicking on my links, Mary.

    Indigneous people? Always getting better, despite the efforts of some to foment trouble and perpetuate disharmony. Thanks for asking.

    How is your crusade against the Jews going? And the chickens? I think it was Heinrich Himmler who said that if you want the whitest hens, you must keep the coloured roosters safely locked away in a cage.

    Anyway, keep up the good work of exposing Jew plots and breeding superior chickens.

  76. I wonder how history will remember Tony the Blair and the Battle of Iraq in 700 years.

    “With some bitterness as the New Mesopotamian Empire’s armies, having swept across a completely decadent Europe, invade the flooded ruins of London, meeting little resistance from the inhabitants of mud huts in malaria-infested Surbiton…:-)”

    Funny. That’s how I think of it right now. :/

  77. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Apr, 2014 - 4:20 pm

    ““People where I live don’t want Gaelic road signs, hardly anybody here speaks Gaelic hardly anybody here ever has, our heritage was Norse.”

    So Fred you think that the English language is going to be forced out when Scotland becomes independent?”
    ______________________

    Only a dishonest fool would infer that from what Fred wrote.

  78. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    24 Apr, 2014 - 4:42 pm

    What goes around comes around, J. Read Gibbon.

  79. “You obviously haven’t sobered-up from last night!”

    Just fuck off dick head.

  80. Calm down folks.

  81. My chickens have brown feathers. :) And they haven’t laid an egg for months. No roosters – will leave you to do the crowing duet with our friend here.

    Not interested in Jew plots btw. Are there some?

    The Palestinians are being shafted again in case you hadn’t noticed.
    BREAKING NEWS:PM Benjamin Netanyahu tells BBC Palestinian leader must abandon unity pact with Hamas if it wants peace with Israel

  82. Jemand Wonder if you caught this on your ABC channel? Recommend it if you didn’t.

    A SPECIAL FOUR CORNERS / THE AUSTRALIAN NEWSPAPER INVESTIGATION
    Stone Cold Justice
    Monday 10 February 2014

    The Israeli army is both respected and feared as a fighting force. But now the country’s military is facing a backlash at home and abroad for its treatment of children in the West Bank, occupied territory.

    Coming up, a joint investigation by Four Corners and The Australian newspaper reveals evidence that shows the army is targeting Palestinian boys for arrest and detention. Reporter John Lyons travels to the West Bank to hear the story of children who claim they have been taken into custody, ruthlessly questioned and then allegedly forced to sign confessions before being taken to court for sentencing.

    He meets Australian lawyer Gerard Horton, who’s trying to help the boys who are arrested, and talks to senior Israeli officials to examine what’s driving the army’s strategy.

    /..
    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2014/02/10/3939266.htm

    ~~

    I see they are also covering this currently.

    The Manus Solution
    Monday 28th April 2014

    The Manus Island Regional Processing Centre, located off the north east coast of Papua New Guinea, is eight hundred kilometres from the country’s capital, Port Moresby, and even further away from Canberra. Last July, when Kevin Rudd announced that asylum seekers arriving by boat would be sent to Manus and settled in PNG, many thought they would be out of sight and out of mind. All that changed earlier this year.

    On the 16th and 17th February violent confrontations at the centre left one man dead and dozens injured. There are now at least four inquiries under way investigating the violence. There is still no official public explanation of what happened during those two days.

    Next on Four Corners, reporter Geoff Thompson puts together the most comprehensive account yet of what took place in and around the processing centre in February this year.

    /..
    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2014/04/24/3991401.htm

  83. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Apr, 2014 - 6:46 pm

    Mary

    “Not interested in Jew plots btw.”
    ________________

    But VERY interested in people’s Jewish ancestry (or marriage…or friends…) – cf. your post about Kate Middleton’s mother.

  84. Mary, try to keep up, I posted about the 4 Corners piece on my facebook page ages ago.

    Y’know, not everything revolves around Israel, Jews and brown-feathered chickens as much as you’d wish. When was the last time you commented on the brutality waged against the people of West Papua? What? Never? Yeah, that’s what I thought. I guess we have to wait for an Indonesian Jew to kill an indigenous Papuan before we hear a peep from you on the subject.

    It just might be time to take up other challenges, Mary. Honking on about Jews ad nauseum could be having the opposite effect to that which you intended. And it might be causing people to unfairly suspect that safe harbour has been unwittingly provided to a rabid anti-Semite.

    Let’s put the scissors and glue away, step outside and get some fresh air. C’mon, Mary. Put the scissors down.

  85. And thanks for posting about Manus Island, Mary. It would seem that Manus Island is unfit for accomodating “asylum seekers” but perfectly fit for the indigenouse residents who no one gives a shit about. How does that work?

    Also, while you and your like-minded kind in Oz continue to harp on hysterically about a single death in Manus Isle resulting from a violent riot by “asylum seekers”, the 1250 leaky-boat migrants who drowned at sea are but a distant memory.

    What is truly disgraceful, is that people like you are still encouraging migrants to embark on the perilous journey to Australia without a scintilla of concern for their safety.

  86. I predicted correctly that it would be a duet!

  87. Resident Dissident

    24 Apr, 2014 - 10:06 pm

    @Craig

    So you think Polish independence and the fall of the Iron Curtain were bad things, to give but one of many examples?

    No I don’t – but given how Poland and other countries behind the Iron Curtain suffered from the effects of German and Russian nationalism there is still an overpowering argument against stirring up that beast in the first place. And it is noticeable that you ignore my point about the unpleasant rise of English nationalism that is happening at the same time as that of Scottish Nationalism, which I don’t believe to be unrelated.

    There is a subtle line between patriotism and nationalism – the former is just the normal human reaction to have pride in your family and where you come from and a desire to govern your own affairs, the latter is more about asserting boundaries, characteristics that are acceptable and unacceptable with the nation state and very often imposing such a view on others.

    Perhaps, if there was a little more celebration of the Scottish Enlightenment, whose major figures were nearly all supporters of the Union, and a little less celebration of military victories over your neighbours then I might be rather more convinced of the benevolent nature of Scottish nationalism. I should also say that I am child of the North of England and as such I am well aware as to how much architecture was designed to protect against earlier Scottish nationalists – and how even to day there is a greater degree of hostility to Scots in places like Newcastle and Carlisle than you might see further South.

  88. “I predicted correctly that it would be a duet!”

    Now you’re just being paranoid or begging for more attention. Which is it? Who can tell.

    Habbabkuk’s comments bear no relationship or similarity to mine except for space and time (as do yours), and the degree of high “esteem” in which we both evidently hold you.

  89. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 12:09 am

    Jemand

    Yup, it’s the duet, struggling to make its dulcet tones heard, versus the clashing cymbals of the brassy one man band! :)

    Re motivation, I’d say it’s a mixture of the two things you identified.

  90. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 12:34 am

    “My chickens have brown feathers. :) And they haven’t laid an egg for months.”
    ____________________

    That’s bad.

    If I were Trowbrige, I’e probably tell you that the Yanks have been beaming down gamma rays on them from one of their killer satellites (they were meant for you but missed).

    And if I were Nevermind or Herbie, I might argue that it’s a subtle Zionist plot to deprive yo of free protein. A bit like what they’re said to be doing to Gaza.

    Anyway : if their time has come, why not put them in the pot?

  91. Who in their right mind wouldn’t vote for independence from the corrupt venal warmongering UK? I will be voting YES.

  92. Kathy^

    Indeed :.)

  93. “If I were Trowbrige, I’e probably tell you that the Yanks have been beaming down gamma rays on them from one of their killer satellites (they were meant for you but missed).”

    Hah!

  94. “Who in their right mind wouldn’t vote for independence from the corrupt venal warmongering UK? I will be voting YES.”

    People who are more swayed by reason than fanaticism.

  95. “Nobody in Scotland was going to base their vote on a battle that happened seven hundred years ago. But the banding together of Labour and Tories to attempt to downplay the sacrifice and cause, to offer a gross and deliberate insult to the memory of those who fought and died for their country, is going to upset an awful lot of people.”

    Agree entirely. I hate nationalism and flag waving of all types. The 2012 Union Jack fest really turned me away from the NO camp, and I had slight worries a similar attempt from some on the YES side to make capital out of Bannockburn might turn me off them as well.

    Instead, this action by the Labour-Tory coalition to effectively drown out a planned, and perfectly reasonable, commemoration of a major part of our history with UK military jingoism has made me angry at them, and at the UK. So much so I’m actually thinking of going along to the Bannockburn thing for the first time ever, possibly with a Saltire to wave.

    I only hope, for the sake of those who want to enjoy Bannockburn AND for the soldiers and families for whom armed forced day means something, it doesn’t turn into a competition or fight between the two. That is not in anyone’s interests, and is an insult to all who’d died in wars whatever their politics and beliefs. It was an utterly stupid and vile decision.

  96. @Cath

    You do need to read between the lines a bit when reading Craig’s blog. He says that Stirling council is run by a Labour Conservative Unionist coalition which it may well be for all I know but he didn’t say that it wasn’t the council who asked the MoD to hold Armed Forces Day there, it was the Provost, without it being put before the council, he didn’t know what day it would be on till later.

    Also “Armed Forces Day is held every year at Edinburgh” actually means Armed Forces Day is held in a different town each year but it was held in Edinburgh in 2011.

    So the only question is if somebody in the MoD knew about the Bannockburn event and deliberately put Armed Forces Day on the same date or not. No evidence either way but somehow I doubt it.

  97. Armed Forces Day is always held on the last weekend in June wherever it’s held; so no deliberate conspiracy to schedule it to overshadow the Bannockburn events.

  98. Fred

    The Bannockburn event was scheduled with the Council eight months before the Armed Forces day event. As a result of a late decision to put the Armed Forces Day event in the same location the Bannockburn event was forced – by the council which is the licensing authority – to reduce tickets from 40,000 to 15,000.

    The Provost is the leader of the council, a New Labour fucking councilor. So “it wasn’t the council it was the Provost” is a stupid bit of bollocks even by your standards. Kempe, nobody claimed they changed the date.

  99. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 11:19 pm

    “…by holding British Armed Forces Day in the same location on the same date as the celebrations of Bannockburn (28-9 June 2014).”

    and

    “..Suddenly to move it there, on the same day as a long-planned event already attracting tens of thousands of people, …”

    might certainly have given the reader the impression that both the venue AND the date had been changed.

  100. You would have to be very naive to think that it is just an innocent coincidence rather than a sinister attempt to overshadow the Bannockburn commemoration and is directly connected to the independence vote. It shows a total disrespect to Scotland and will only increase the yes vote. In fact, you would think they wanted independence as all their actions just stir things up. Either that or they are very very stupid and behaving like colonialists with no regard to the sensitivities of the colony. Time to take action I think and end this unequal union.

  101. Matthew Paris thinks that if there is a Yes vote, Cameron will resign and call an election. If the union is broken, his badge of honour is broken. Anyway, jolly good if he pushes off.

    If it’s a ‘yes’, they’ll be after Cameron’s head
    Matthew Parris
    April 26 2014

    He agreed to the Scottish referendum, after all; but it was a brave decision and the question has to be settled

    Imagine. It’s the second day after Scotland votes to leave the union. The first day has of course been about the shock of the result; but now we’ve had 24 hours to think further.

    What will be on the front page of this newspaper? No, let me put it in Daily Mail terms: “How dare he carry on? Cameron faces calls to resign.”

    You may not be thinking about this yet. But count on it:David Cameron must be.

    ~~~

    And the CBI are rowing backwards blaming their officers for joining the Better Together brigade.

    Scottish independence: CBI reverses referendum stance
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27159618

    Naughtie, speaking from Scotland on Radio 4 this morning, described the SNP as ‘having the wind in their sails’. This follows a memorial for Margo McDonald at which her husband Jim Sillars spoke.

    Sillars: Margo wanted ‘unity of purpose’ no matter referendum result
    ‘http://news.stv.tv/east-central/272870-jim-sillars-says-margo-macdonald-wanted-unity-after-referendum/

  102. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:26 am

    Given that the Battle of Bannockburn happened on the 24 June – it does beg the question as to why the current celebration/commemoration was not held on the weekend nearest to that date so as avoid a clash with the pre-existing date for the Armed Forces event. I suspect that are some Scots who would have liked to attend both.

  103. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:28 am

  104. Resident Dissident

    26 Apr, 2014 - 10:33 am

    Of course in 2012 the celebrations were the weekend before – why was the date switched so as to clash with the Armed Forces date?

    http://www.thesocietyofwilliamwallace.com/bannockburn2012.htm

  105. Very interesting article.

    It’s been a while since I visited and on seeing Fred’s
    nonsensical, myopic ramblings I remembered why.

    And to think, in his world, we have self-determination
    with the current system…

    Why argue?

  106. Craig 23 Apr, 2014 – 11:55 pm
    “So you think Polish independence and the fall of the Iron Curtain were bad things, to give but one of many examples?”

    To argue that Polish independence resulted from nationalism ignores other factors. To then argue that such examples are evidence that nationalism is a good thing ignores the history of horrors resulting from nationalism. It is transparently fallacious bollocks.

  107. Yes, we notice all the horrors resulting from British nationalism such as the Iraq War for example.

  108. Kathy 26 Apr, 2014 – 3:15 pm
    “Yes, we notice all the horrors resulting from British nationalism such as the Iraq War for example.”

    Bloody horrible wasn’t it.

    Kathy, you won’t find me defending British, English or any nationalism and as much as I have an opinion I prefer a yes vote. However, a country born out of nationalist drivel runs the risk of being just another pro-NATO, elite-loving European war machine led by the same old ruling classes.

  109. “The Provost is the leader of the council, a New Labour fucking councilor. So “it wasn’t the council it was the Provost” is a stupid bit of bollocks even by your standards. Kempe, nobody claimed they changed the date.”

    If the council had been consulted then it would be the council. They weren’t, the Provost did it without asking them, therefore it was the Provost. When he invited them he did not know what date it would be on and did not find out until after it was accepted. Just a mix up in my opinion, they happen all the time.

    Simple logic, your blaming it on council members Labour or Conservative is the bolloks, it’s down to the Provost.

    Just as ““Armed Forces Day is held every year at Edinburgh” was bolloks.

  110. “You would have to be very naive to think that it is just an innocent coincidence rather than a sinister attempt to overshadow the Bannockburn commemoration and is directly connected to the independence vote. It shows a total disrespect to Scotland and will only increase the yes vote. In fact, you would think they wanted independence as all their actions just stir things up. Either that or they are very very stupid and behaving like colonialists with no regard to the sensitivities of the colony. Time to take action I think and end this unequal union.”

    So who do you think are to blame? The council members like Craig? Well the Labour and Conservative councillors did nothing which the SNP councillors didn’t do and they make almost half the council.

    Everyone but a fanatical few seem overjoyed that Armed Forces Day is to be held in Sterling, most see it as a great honour for Scotland. But the people of Scotland can have their say, they can choose for themselves which event they wish to go to.

  111. “It’s been a while since I visited and on seeing Fred’s
    nonsensical, myopic ramblings I remembered why.

    And to think, in his world, we have self-determination
    with the current system…”

    First, who in the world, or in history have had more self determination?

    Second should Scotland become independent what radically different system of government would they be using to give the people more self determination?

    Can’t Nationalists do anything but chant mantras? Do they never come out of their deluded belief system into the real world.

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