World Domination

by craig on May 3, 2014 3:58 pm in Uncategorized

Add together the cities of Donetsk, Kharkiv and Lugansk and you don’t reach the economic output of Dundee.  World domination it isn’t.  Unfortunately both in the Kremlin and on Capitol Hill they, and their satraps, think it is.  Neither side cares at all about the millions of ordinary people in the zone of potential conflict.

The spiral of death in Ukraine is very worrying.  Following the tragic deaths in Odessa, the ball is very much in Putin’s court.  His bluff has very much been called.  We will now learn whether he was stoking clashes in Eastern Ukraine and massing forces on his border in order to give a pretext for invasion – which pretext he now has – or in order to destabilize and intimidate Kiev into moving away from relationships with the EU.

This has been a discussion of the deaf even more within intellectual circles in the West than between Washington and the Kremlin, where at least the Machiavellians understand full well what they are doing.  But their followers either, on the one hand, deny that there are any far right elements on the Ukrainian side or any CIA assistance, or alternatively deny that there are many millions of ordinary Ukrainians who genuinely want to be at peace in their own country and move towards the EU.  They either claim that all the separatists are Russian agents and deny the genuine minority population which yearns for the Soviet Union or Russia, or they deny the existence of Russian agents and special forces in Ukraine, and that most of the Russian nationalists are every bit as right wing and appalling as the equivalent tendency on the Ukrainian side.

First, some history.  The Ukrainian people really do exist.  They have been a subjugated people for centuries, most lastingly by the great Polish-Lithuanian  Empire and then by the Russian Empire.  That does not mean they did not exist.  Consider this: until 1990 there had not been an independent Polish state for over two hundred years, except for a fleeting twenty years between the two world wars.  Yet nobody doubts the Poles are a real nation.  I shan’t start on Scotland again …

None of modern Ukraine was Russian until the 18th century, when the expansion of the Russian empire and decline of the Polish took in these new colonies. As Putin famously remarked, it was called New Russia.  Yes, Vladimir, note it was New.  That is because it was a colony. Just like New York.  Because it was called New Russia gives you no more right to it than the Channel Islands have to New Jersey.  Ukraine had been Russian seven hundred years before its 18th century reconquest, but that population had migrated to Muscovy.

The expansion of the Russian Empire was exactly contemporary with the expansion of the British and American Empires, and other bit players like the French.  Like most of the American, most of the Russian Empire was a contiguous land mass.  The difference between the Russian and British Empires, on the one hand, and the American Empire on the other, was that the Russians and British did not commit genocide of the existing populations.  The difference between the Russian and the British Empires is that the British gave almost all of theirs back in the post-colonial period (a process that needs to be urgently completed). Russia gave back much of her Empire at the fall of the Soviet Union, but still retained a very great deal more than the British.  It is to me inarguable that, in a historical perspective, Putin is attempting to recover as much of the Russian Empire as possible, including but by no means solely by the annexation of Crimea and his actions in Ukraine.

Crimea, incidentally, had maintained its own independent existence as the last remnant of the Mongol Horde right up until the 19th century.  Despite the Russian colonisation of Crimea in the 19th century, it still had a majority Tatar population until the 1940’s, when Stalin tried his hand at genocide on them.  The Tatars were branded Nazis.  Opponents of the Russian Empire are always “Nazis” or “Jihadists”.  The deportation of the Tatars from Crimea was only twenty years before the British did the same genocide to a smaller people in Diego Garcia.  I call for the restitution of both.  Those who call for the restitution of one and not the other are appalling hypocrites.

Equally hypocritical are those who call for a referendum on Russian union for East Ukraine, but not for referenda on independence for Dagestan and Chechnya.  It is an irony insufficiently noted, that in Russia to call or campaign for the separation of any part of the state is a crime punishable by up to 22 years’ imprisonment.  There are over 7,000 people from the Caucasus imprisoned under that law.

There is absolutely no movement among the large minority Russians of the Baltic States to rejoin Mother Russia, because living conditions in the EU are just so much better.  As I have blogged before, it is undeniably true that living conditions for ordinary people in Poland have vastly improved as a result of EU membership, and are much better than in Ukraine – or Russia.

GDP per capita figures for Russia look quite good, but do not give a true reflection of living standards because of astonishing levels of inequality of wealth.  This is very bad in the West, and getting much worse rather rapidly, but is nowhere near as bad as in Russia which is the most viciously capitalist state in the world, made worse by its commodity dependency.  The Russian economy is completely non-diversified, manufacturing and services are miniscule and it is overwhelmingly a raw commodity exporter in energy, metals, grain etc.  That leads to extreme concentration of profit and a lack of employment opportunity.  Combine that with mafia state corruption and you have the oligarchs’ paradise.  Russia is a gangster state.  On top of which, if I were a Russian who campaigned against the Russian government in the same way that I do against  my own, I would be dead.

The desire of ordinary Ukrainians to join the EU one day, and move closer to it now, is understandable and indeed commendable.  It was also the desire of Yanukovich.  Those who claim Western pressure on Yanukovich forget – or choose to ignore – that Yanukovich’s government had actually, quite independently and voluntarily, negotiated the EU co-operation agreement and were on the point of signing it, when Yanukovich was summoned to Moscow by Putin and informed that if they signed the agreement, the energy supplies to Ukraine would immediately be cut off in mid-winter and debt called in.

That is a fact.  It was not illegal for Putin to do that; it was perhaps even legitimate for those who believe in a Machiavellian approach to great power politics.  Yanukovich temporized, between a rock and a hard place.  Ukraine seemed to be at a key moment of  balance, hung between the EU and Russia. The capital being in West Ukraine and overwhelmingly ethnic Ukrainian, pro-EU crowds started to build up.  Then things started to get wildly out of control.

Were western governments encouraging pro-western groups in Ukraine?  Yes, that’s their job.  Did this include covert support? Yes.  Were the Russians doing precisely the same thing with their supporters?  Yes, that’s their job too.  Did the Americans spend 5 billion dollars on covert support?  Of course not.

Victoria Nuland claimed in a speech America had put 5 billion dollars into Ukraine.  I used to write those kind of speeches for British ministers.  First you take every bit of money given by USAID to anything over a very long period, remembering to add an estimate for money given to international projects including Ukraine.  Don’t forget to add huge staff costs and overheads, then something vast for your share of money lent by the IMF and EBRD, then round it up well.  I can write you a speech claiming that Britain has given five billion dollars to pretty well anywhere you claim to name.

The problem is that both the left and right have again, equal but opposite motives for believing Nuland’s bombast about the extent of America’s influence on events.  I have been in this game.  You can’t start a revolution in another country.  You can affect it at the margins.

A military coup you certainly can start.  One thing we don’t really know nearly enough about is what happened at the end, when Yankovich had to flee.  The Maidan protestors would never have caused a government to fall which retained full control of its army.  The army can fail the rulers in two ways.  First is a revolutionary movement among normal soldiers – the French revolution model.  Second is where the troops remain disciplined but follow their officers in a military coup.  The latter is of course a CIA speciality.  More evidence is needed, but if this is the second model, it is unusual for it not to result in military control of government.  Egypt is the obvious current example of a CIA backed coup.

After Yanukovich we had entered the world domination game.  Putin seemed to have lost.  The annexation of Crimea was a smart move by Putin in that game, because there probably is a genuine small majority of the population there who would like to join Russia.  I have no doubt whatsoever that Putin himself does not believe the 93% for a moment.  As I said, the Machiavellian players of world domination are realistic; it is their purblind followers on either side who buy their propaganda.

The Kiev government and the West should have conceded Crimea before Putin moved his troops into it.  The sensible thing for the new Kiev government to have done would have been to offer a referendum in Crimea itself, under its own auspices.  That would have got the most hardline pro-Russian voters out of the country for good. But by that time, everyone had gone into Macho mode, which is where we still are.

None of the remaining provinces would opt to join Russia given the choice.  There is no shortage of existing and historic opinion poll evidence on that.   Crimea was the only province with an ethnic Russian majority.  The Eastern provinces have Russian speaking majorities, but most are ethnic Ukrainian. I base ethnicity here purely on self-identification in census (and, as I have repeatedly explained, absolutely everybody in the former Soviet Union knows precisely what is asked in the questions of Gradzvanstvo and Narodnosch). Just as some Welsh people speak English, some Ukrainians speak Russian but do not consider themselves Russian.  Putin’s frequent references to the Russian-speaking peoples coming back to Russia are as sinister as if we started talking of re-uniting all the English speaking people in the world.

As almost always with colonies, the minority ethnic Russian populations in the East of Ukraine are more concentrated in urban areas.  Hence it has been possible in regional capitals to mobilise gangs of disaffected and unemployed Russian young men (in view of Ukraine’s basket case economy there are plenty), and with a slight stiffening of Russian forces take control of town centres.  There is a significant minority, and possibly a majority in town centres, willing to support.  It is, I think, extremely important to understand that the thugs on both sides are very unpleasant.  I have the particular experience of relations with a lot of Uzbeks, and the incidence of racial attacks by Russian nationalist thugs within Russia itself is absolutely horrifying and almost completely unreported.  The swastika is a popular symbol among young macho men throughout all of former Eastern Europe including Russia.  I absolutely guarantee you that an equally significant proportion of the pro-Russians who have been attacking anyone who tries to show support for Ukraine within Eastern Ukrainian cities, are no more and no less right wing, racist and vicious than the appalling Pravy Sektor thugs included on the other side.  We have plenty within the EU – there is a serious problem, for example, with the official encouragement given to commemorations of pro-Nazi forces within the Baltic states which often have a distinctly neo-Nazi tinge.

Putin’s campaign of controlling the urban centres appears to have gone wrong in Odessa, which is simply too large for the numbers of available young men armed with baseball bats to take control.  The pro-Russians were badly beaten in precisely the same street fighting they had been winning elsewhere.  The culmination of this was the terrible fire and deaths. My expectation is there will not be many women, children or old people among the dead, but also there will not be many non-Ukrainian nationals.  I expect these will prove to have been local Russian young men.

Putin now has a real problem.  His own rhetoric has indicated that he will sweep in and defend these Russians, but there is one thing anyone with half a brain should have worked out by now.  The ruling 1%, the ultra-wealthy, in both Russia and the West are so interconnected with each other that they are playing the game of world domination while trying at the same time to make sure nobody super-rich really loses his money.  Hence the strange obviously bogus sanctions regimes. Real stock market disruption and confiscation of corrupt assets would be difficult to avoid if the tanks start rolling in earnest.  We may be saved from utter disaster by the sheer scale of global corruption, which is a strange conclusion.

I would like to think the awful deaths of the last few days would lead both sides to step back from the brink.  The time has come for a peacekeeping force.  Negotiations should be held urgently to make the Kiev interim government more inclusive of opposition elements from the East – and they must oust the far right at the same time.  The UN Security Council should then send in UN peacekeepers, which must include both Russian and western forces in close integration, to keep the peace while genuine elections are held.  I can see no other way forward which does not risk disaster.

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469 Comments

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  1. ‘None of the remaining provinces would opt to join Russia given the choice.’

    Hmm, agree with most of your analysis, despite its shaky ground and changing facts, except for Transnistria, a smidgeon of a strip country next to Moldova which is yearning to be in the Russian fold again.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/transnistria-soviet-leftover-or-russian-foothold-in-europe-a-965801.html

  2. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 4:37 pm

    Craig; If global avarice is the only hope, should we be concerned about how Western influence might profit from Putin’s demise? Surely they have economic interests which fall on one side and not the other?

  3. Craig,

    Odessa not Donetsk was where the 40 or so died inside the Trades Union building.

    Here’s the Russian version

    http://rt.com/news/156592-odessa-activists-burnt-alive/

    Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt Ukraine anti-govt activists alive

    Dozens of people died in flames in Odessa, when radicals set ablaze the local House of Trade Unions with anti-government protesters blocked inside. The city is now in mourning for those who died, suffocated in smoke or had to jump out of windows.

    What triggered the tragedy were violent clashes, which erupted on Friday afternoon between two rival rallies in Ukraine’s port-city of Odessa.

    Around 1,500 supporters of the Kiev authorities, accompanied by aggressive fans of the local football club, Chernomorets, tried to march through the center of the city chanting “Glory to Ukraine,” “Death to enemies,” “Knife the Moskals [derogatory for Russians].” Some of the people in the group were wearing ultra-nationalist Right Sector movement insignia, were armed with chains and bats and carried shields.

    Several hundred anti-government activists eventually confronted the procession. Fighting broke out as a result, with members of the rival groups throwing stones, Molotov cocktails and smoke grenades at each other and at police. The pavements were spattered with blood.

    Neither side is “innocent” but watching the scenes live yesterday was disturbing. Only the Ukrainian Fire Brigade came out of this looking good. If it hadn’t been for them going in there would have been a lot more “pro-Russian” dead.

  4. Ben

    I don’t think global avarice is the only hope at all. Just noting a passing irony of the situation. I think that those who control the west have no particular interest in Putin’s demise – the present system of raking it in has been working pretty well for all of them.

    Please put you other comment on the thread on that exact topic.

  5. Alconon

    Thanks – amended. I fear these mental slips come with old age! I should say that Russian report is pretty compatible with what I wrote – pro-Russian group taking control of town centre in City which was too big for them to intimidate. As I said, I think the sex and age profile of the victims will give a decent idea of whether they were peaceful demonstrators or not. I much doubt it. Of course the Russian report will say all the Russians were peaceful and all the Ukrainians Nazis. That is no more true than its opposite, which is also not true.

  6. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 4:53 pm

    Yes, Craig. Posted that here in error.

    So Western sanctions are just window dressing for hometown consumption? You see no Neo-Con backstage but salient and influential power?

  7. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 4:55 pm

    AA; regional and ethnic hatred with attendant baggage, or was there biased assistance from the Odessa police influenced by Kyev?

  8. All I can say Ben is that the Odessa police left both sides to each other initially. Once it became clear that a tragedy was unfolding firemen went up ladders into the building and rescued people from upper floors. As they were brought to the ground they were then set upon by a violent mob with baseball bats or similar. The police stood across the street and watched as the firemen attempted to protect those rescued and get them to ambulances. Eventually (maybe after an hour or so) the police did intervene.

    The vast majority of Maidan supporters may be peaceful but there were one hell of a lot who weren’t in Odessa yesterday. There were three live streams from different broadcasters covering the event live (including Ukrainian television) but the event was generally ignored by western news channels as it occurred.

  9. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 5:11 pm

    Like I’ve said, we need an official program of the players, AA. Finding the good guys is like the search for MH 370………..I got nothin’. :)

  10. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 5:12 pm

    Oh, except the firefighters; heroes unsung.

  11. That’s very good Craig. I think both William Hague and Catherine Ashton would give you a pass on that – and maybe even Victoria Nuland and her PNAC husband Robert Kagan – at least you weren’t too hard on them. But I only partially buy it, and I think you are completely omitting some very important history, that is totally relevant to the situation in the Ukraine.

    My perception of what is happening is just an extension to the globalist agenda that started around 30 years ago, and was massively accelerated immediately after 9/11 with Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, and now the Ukraine – with Europe next in the target line for total collapse and chaos.

    The US neocons directly descendant from Trotsky and infiltrated and merged with the US Military Industrial Complex – are pursuing an agenda of complete world domination and control, and causing complete and utter chaos, poverty, civil war and collapse in numerous parts of the world concurrently is an integral part of their long held plans. They are actually goading Putin to intervene in Ukraine, and by every means possible force the cut off of Russian energy (the largest exporter of energy in the World) to Europe – with China next in line, after Europe has been decimated by total energy collapse.

    European politicians, instead of standing up to these threats to their own populations, appear to be under some kind of satanic control by these monsters across the pond, who not only could not care less about the people in the Ukraine, they also couldn’t care less about the people in Europe, or for that matter the people in the USA, who are becoming just as much victims as the rest of the world, as all their wealth producing jobs are moved to third world countries to maximise profits for the shareholders of the most powerful corporations.

    Tony

  12. “massing forces on his border” – said which western propaganda outlet exactly? The same one that said Saddam was amassing troops on the border of Saudi perchance?

  13. “British did not commit genocide of the existing populations.” – there’s a fair few million hungry Indians that might like to pick a bone or two about that statement.

  14. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 5:36 pm

    Does the West really want a peaceful resolution for all sides in Ukraine? There seems to be some inconsistency.

    http://rt.com/op-edge/talks-ukraine-west-russia-376/

    “On the one hand, they are posturing as if they want to be dealmakers, as if they want to broker some kind of a peace. On the other hand, not only did they continue to support the illegal government in Kiev and continue to make very inflammatory comments regarding Russia and their purported role in what’s happening in Eastern Ukraine. At the same time we are also seeing that the US really quite unsure about what their policy is going to be.

    The visit from the CIA Director Brennan which was made very clear to the media through back channels was not just an advisory role as the Western media has portrayed it, but he has given the insurances quite obviously to the so-called government in Kiev that the US would back them in their so-called antiterrorist operation in the East. So much of the conflict that we’ve seen happening in Donetsk and in the other regions in the East is direct byproduct of the dual US so-called diplomacy, or what I would call, diplomacy and subversion.

  15. Ben,

    Take what Russia Today says on Ukraine. Take what Fox News says. The truth won’t lie in the middle, you will rather be acquiring a pile of shit.

  16. Good to see some straight talking.

  17. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    3 May, 2014 - 6:05 pm

    Craig

    That was a tour d’horizon magistral and said all that really needs to be said. Even the experienced friends of Vladimir will find it difficult to contest very much and still retain a shred of credibility. Congratulations.

  18. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 6:11 pm

    Craig; You can’t manufacture bellicose threats from Obama and NATO. They are inconsistent firebombs on gasoline. That’s not diplomacy, it’s preparation

  19. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    3 May, 2014 - 6:12 pm

    BTW

    “..living conditions for ordinary people in Poland have vastly improved as a result of EU membership, and are much better than in Lithuania – or Russia.”
    ___________-

    I think you meant to say “Ukraine” rather than “Lithuania”?

  20. Yesterday’s Guardian anti Putin editorial.

    Ukraine: Kiev’s eastern question

    Vladimir Putin has taken Russia back to pre-Soviet nationalist attitudes. Tanks may yet roll across the Ukrainian border
    The Guardian, Friday 2 May 2014
    http://www.theguardian.com/global/2014/may/02/editorial-ukraine-kievs-eastern-question?CMP=twt_gu

  21. LWTC247
    The British Empire certainly carried out atrocities in India. There is no respectable argument it carried out genocide. Same is true of Russian expansion in Asia.

  22. “Vladimir Putin has taken Russia back to pre-Soviet nationalist attitudes. ”

    I think that’s what Alec Salmond meant when he said Putin had restored Russian pride. Now we’re about to see the consequences.

  23. Completely agree with this post and interesting to hear some of the history. The Russian government and pro-Russians in Ukraine are churning out propaganda just as much as the Kiev government and their US allies are.

    Mixed Russian and NATO peacekeeping forces with a common mandate and duty to prevent fighting sounds like a good solution – worried that instead the Russians will try to be the only ones deployed in the East and South which they want to control and that NATO will deploy only in the West.

  24. Ben

    Again, the stupidity of the completely one-sided. Russia has made continued threats to intervene militarily in Ukraine. Only one foreign country has actually sent in troops. Why do you see evil only on one side?

  25. Duncan,

    Yes, important that they are mixed down at the tactical level.

  26. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    3 May, 2014 - 6:29 pm

    ” Why do you see evil only on one side?” I think this is the intersection of pov’s. One side only sees Putin as bad, seemingly giving a pass to the fascists. I guess you’re right, there is no middle ground.

  27. A long post, Craig. It deserves to be studied before composing a detailed response.

    For the time being, given your interest in BBC propaganda try the headline “Pro-Russian anger at Odessa deaths” for size. Why “Pro-Russian”? Does that lessen the anger that should be felt? It is only “Pro-Russian” so there’s no need for anyone else to get worked up about it? These people were deliberately torched after seeking shelter in a trade union office.

    Brownshirts like setting fire to things, as well as breaking shops windows.

    A final thought, for now: Many of the banners in the east are anti-Nazi. The people who live there know who the enemy is. The army that did the bulk of the fighting in the final assault on Berlin in April 1945 were Ukrainian divisions. And now there are Nazis in their own Government. Excuse them if they’re a little…testy with that.

  28. “Washington has no intention of allowing the crisis in Ukraine to be resolved.”

    Elites love chaos.

    “Having failed to seize the country and evict Russia from its Black Sea naval base, Washington sees new opportunities in the crisis.”

    “The Wolfowitz doctrine justifies Washington’s dominance of all regions. It is consistent with the neoconservative ideology of the US as the “indispensable” and “exceptional” country entitled to world hegemony.

    Russia and China are in the way of US world hegemony. Unless the Wolfowitz doctrine is abandoned, nuclear war is the likely outcome.”

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38396.htm

  29. Pussy whipped

    3 May, 2014 - 6:42 pm

    [Black Jelly – banned]

  30. “Here’s a brief excerpt from an interview with Stephen Cohen, professor of Russian studies and history emeritus at New York University on Monday on PBS Newshour. Cohen helps to clarify what is really going on viv a vis the US and Russia:

    “What we’re watching today is the worst kind of history being made, the descent of a new Cold War divide between West and East in Europe, this time not in faraway Berlin, but right on Russia’s borders through Ukraine. That will be instability and the prospect of war for decades to come for our kids and our grandchildren. The official version is that Putin is to blame; he did this. But it simply isn’t true. This began 20 years ago when Clinton began the movement of NATO toward Russia, a movement that’s continued.

    …the fundamental issue here is that, three or four years ago, Putin made absolutely clear he had two red lines…One was in the former Soviet republic of Georgia. (Putin would not allow NATO in Georgia) The other was in Ukraine. We crossed both. You got a war in Georgia in 2008, and you have got today in Ukraine because we, the United States and Europe, crossed Putin’s red line.” (PBS News Hour)

    There’s no doubt who is to blame for the present conflict in Cohen’s mind. It’s Washington.”

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37878.htm

  31. Only one foreign country has actually sent in troops.

    Great to see where Craig Murray stands. No credence or even consideration to be given to evidence of US/Nato subversion in Ukraine, the alleged training of Neo-Nazi thugs in Poland, evidence of Western mercenaries in Ukraine. No, this is all Putin’s doing.

    How pathetic can a phony analyst be?

    The reality is that Russia has rebuilt its economy, making Europe heavily dependent on Russia in the process. This poses a dire threat to US Hegemony as spelled out by the Project for the New American Century, and as expressed in the Wolfowitz doctrine:

    “Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power.”

    What we’re seeing is not Putin being an arse-hole, we’re seeing the onset of WWIII, instigated by the US with the aim of destroying both Russia and China as threats to American hegemony.

    China, although now the largest economy in the world, is to be dealt with after Russia, since Russia poses a threat to US domination of Europe. If the Europeans decide to admit Russia to the European home, as Gorbachev assumed they would, then the US Empire is finished. It is thus vital to the US to instigate a conflict between Russian and Western Europe. A third European civil war will keep the American Empire safe for another generation.

  32. Mike/Ben/Herbie/Mary,

    I read what Craig wrote, and some of it was obviously true, but I thought he still has his old Establishment hat on, despite the appalling way he was treated – but I can understand that too. So I couldn’t immediately respond to it, and instead went for a cycle ride, and wrote my response in my head on my bike.

    [cut. Stay on topic]

  33. Refereeeee!!

    Surely it’s totally in order that a long term and cherished poster like Tony be introduced to newer posters.

    He’s allowed to know to whom he’s talking.

    What’s wrong with that?

  34. CanSpeccy,

    Excellent post. Good to see you are still in fine form…though “How pathetic can a phony analyst be?” was a bit strong…and I think he actually believes what he writes, so it may simply be a case of cognitive dissonance despite his obvious intelligence…

    I don’t know who this guy is…but its the best thing I have read this week…and I agree with almost all of his theories and speculation – especially his Snowden bit – well worth a read…

    http://linguistic-determinism-art-language.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/empiric-myopia.html

    Extract

    “To me the events appear to be an extortion operation against the upcoming Russian and Chinese energy deal as well as mitigating cooperation between Europe and Russia. The Empire will not allow serious cooperation in Eurasia that can challenge them. That means both Russia and Europe as well as between Russia and China. They want to mitigate Russian success in the one area vital to their relationships, energy –ergo, the Ukrainian crisis and its provocations against Europe and the island disputes and its provocations against China.

    This appears to be a move by the empire against Russia, Europe and China that are posing an existential threat to it by challenging the petrodollar. The flailing empire has chosen the Samson Option to ensure that the Russian-Chinese energy agreement and Russian-European gas deals continue to use the petrodollar. You can take the empire down, but at a heavy price.

    The implication of the Ukrainian crisis, in context to Europe is, if you do not trade in petrodollars, we will have the pipelines destroyed, start a war that will eventually drag the rest of Europe against Russia and most likely another world war! This answers why Europe is keeping a low profile, in the media. Behind the curtain?”

    Tony

  35. I’m struggling to agree with much of this -if Putin is trying to regain the Russian empire then he isn’t doing great. So far he has taken two small chivs out Georgia and Crimea. Crimea was never happy about waking up in Ukraine – I remember rumblings about more autonomy going back to the 90s.
    A quick look at the map of Russian contraction and NATO expansion gives a more realistic picture – it is the West that is playing the world domination game and, by and large, winning. Putin is playing catch up and grabbing a few bits here and there.
    The situation in East Ukraine is more complex than one of ethnicity – the Russian speakers do not necessarily want to become part of Russia, equally they are fearful of the new regime in Kiev. A good article on the matter is here:
    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/04/marx-last-stand-eastern-ukraine-20144229655276774.html

    As I see it there are four groupings in Ukraine:
    i) the oligarchs (aka gangsters) who have held power on a rotating basis from independence. They become politicians merely to facilitate their economic plunder. Almost nobody in Ukraine likes them or wants to see them continue in power.
    ii) the Maidan crowd (falsely christened Euro-Maidan) who were primarily against the corruption of the oligarchs and are no more pleased with the current interim government than they were with Yanukovich. We shoudl note that they are still protesting although the Western media has chosen to forget about them now ‘their bastards’ are in power.
    iii) the Right Sector – an unpleasant group from mainly Western Ukraine who were the violent shock troops in Kiev that eventually toppled the Yanukovich regime with covert and overt backing from the EU/US.
    iv) the eastern ‘separatists’ who probably backed Yanukovich but also are feeling persecuted by the banning of Russian as an official language.

    Ukraine will by no means be ‘saved’ by association with the EU – more likely they will lose out massively by being shackled to IMF loans and adjustment programs which will result in large scale privatisations unemployment and austerity in an already impoverished nation. Those in the east seem to appreciate it – those in the west are probably too stupid to realise it or feel that they can use EU help to achieve their own aims.
    Poland is the exception to the rule – most of the former eastern block countries have had a really tough time since joining the EU.

    All in all, the West initiated this mess and are likely to regret doing so. Putin is not helping matters but has his own, quite valid, reasons for doing so.

  36. Resident Dissident

    3 May, 2014 - 7:48 pm

    The analysis is absolutely spot on – the only points I would add are that there are an lot of similarities between ordinary Russians and Ukrainians – and mixed Ukrainian and Russian families are a common feature in both countries. The differences between Russians and Ukrainians should not be exaggerated, and would ideally be kept at the level of jokes and humour. Yes I believe that Ukrainians should rightly be members of the European family – but I also believe that the Russian should be as well.

    Everyone should also be very conscious of the game that Putin is playing – he is more than aware that the economy and particularly him and his fellow kleptocrats have enjoyed a long streak of luck because of a period of high oil and other commodity prices, and the benefits of increases in the efficiency in producing oil (which were incidentally largely initiated by Yukos when Khodorovsky) was in charge) and that such a period is likely to come to an end. Given that this is likely to mean that this will result in even less trickling down to the ordinary people, and because all those decent people with liberal and democratic views are becoming a much more sizeable and noisy minority, so rather than money he is now resorting to playing the nationalist card as a means of retaining power. This is the reason why Putin is terrified of further colour revolutions, why he took the Crimea, why he cracking down on dissidents and the internet, using every opportunity he can to be seen standing up to the West – while at the same time cutting back pension, health and education benefits for ordinary Russian. Putin has to be stood up to now not just for the benefit of his neighbours but for that of Russians, who ultimately always pay the biggest price for the dictatorial behaviour of some of their rulers.

  37. My comment is awaiting moderation – I shall take that as a compliment.

    [it was held for containing a spam-blocking keyword]

  38. Just because it’s early Summer and we have temporarily forgotten how cold our winters can be, little or no thought is being given to European dependency on Russia for its gas supplies. I understand that Germany will not allow any Western military action to take place.

  39. Hey – We’ve got a referee on the pitch…

    Which is great…

    It is Craig Murray’s website, and he can see what has happened to all his previous moderators…

    Well done Craig – Keep it up…

    Good to see You Back in Fine Form

    Tony

  40. Resident Dissident

    3 May, 2014 - 8:00 pm

    Of course one thing that Canspeccy does not mention is that in recent years has seen a very significant change in its ethnicity – with the Russian birth rate falling and significant Russian emigration, which has been compensated by a large inflow of migrant labour mainly from the former Southern republics. However – I suspect he doesn’t worry about that since those migrants are usually treated as near slave labour, live in appalling housing and are often subject to abuse by officials and racist thugs (something that the Eminences would consider far worse than that doled out by the “fascist” (their word not mine) Theresa May if they could put their prejudices aside for a moment) – largely because Putin makes all the right nationalist noises and discourages any interbreeding. This is of course the sort of plan Canspeccy would like the West to follow as well – don’t let anyone be fooled otherwise.

  41. Some standards of journalism are more ethical than others. While all are biased the news coming out of Russia Today has been much more accurate than that of the BBC and the Guardian which have both been misreporting what happened in Odessa. They have started now to give a more accurate picture.

    As to Poland being a lot better off since it joined Europe than it was before I’m not so sure. I cycled through Poland in 2001. Everywhere was clean and tidy. There was no litter. The people were friendly and honest. I spoke to a man, Adam, in Przemyśl in the Prosecutor’s office and we spoke about Russian literature. He also told me about the problem of illegal immigrants coming in from the Ukraine. He directed me to a medieval castle as place of interest. The castle had secret passages and dated back to the eighteenth century though its records went back to the sixteenth century. Everybody I met was smartly dressed and there was one stage where I seriously contemplated doing an exchange of clothes with a scarecrow.

    In 2004 I got delayed in Krakow for almost a week because there were so many people coming to England I could not get a place on a coach. When I did get a place I sat next to a young medical doctor, Marta, who was coming to work in England. She had got a job to go to as a nurse at a care home in Shropshire. Her English was good but I felt sorry that she had taken a job below her qualifications. We kept in touch and I was not surprised when she went back to Poland.

    I have revisited Poland several times since, and driven there once. Things are still clean though litter-consciousness is not as evident as it was in 2001. Unemployment, which fell initially, is going up and stands at above 13% (stay away from Wikipedia, which says it is falling). The gap between rich and poor has increased. Wages and the cost of living have gone up, as has the value of the Złoty against a basket of currencies. I have a few friends in England who are Polish and they are still supporting families over there. Poland, in my opinion, has benefited so much from EU membership it is becoming little different from other western economies in some ways. The people are hard-working and generally welcoming. Unfortunately it is also part of NATO and has supplied troops for the illegal invasions together with training for the Maidan terrorists.

    Yes, it has growing GDP, if that is any indicator of improvement.

  42. Resident Dissident

    3 May, 2014 - 8:03 pm

    “I understand that Germany will not allow any Western military action to take place.”

    I don’t think anyone is proposing such action – the place to hit Putin is in his wallet. I would not underestimate Merkel – I suspect that she understands the real nature of Putin better than most having grown up in Eastern GermanY.

  43. John Goss,

    Great deal of truth in your anecdotal evidence, but if you took 1990 as your starting point rather 2001, the improvement is truly startling.

  44. technicolour

    3 May, 2014 - 8:12 pm

    John Goss: “While all are biased the news coming out of Russia Today has been much more accurate than that of the BBC and the Guardian”- tell me, oh oracle, how you devine this?

  45. Resident Dissident

    3 May, 2014 - 8:12 pm

    John Goss

    Since litter appears to be the main measure you use to measure a society perhaps you should note that under both Yeltsin and Putin, Moscow is clearly failing – strangely enough you will find that old Soviet communists often use the same measure. On the other hand, I am told that the streets of Pyongyang are pristine.

  46. technicolour

    3 May, 2014 - 8:15 pm

    “I would not underestimate Merkel”

    agreed. And having spent some time with some people from Germany over the last few days it was refreshing to see the righteous fury with which they greeted the fact that the US had been spying on their Chancellor and, moreover, were refusing to stop. As well as sobering to hear the contempt they had for the role of the English backers in all this.

    Incidentally, Snowden was described by one (a judge) as an honourable, service worthy man.

  47. Resident Dissident

    3 May, 2014 - 8:16 pm

    “Great deal of truth in your anecdotal evidence, but if you took 1990 as your starting point rather 2001, the improvement is truly startling.”

    I spent time in Poland around that time and I would agree – I do remember being proudly shown a salad bar in a Warsaw restaurant which consisted entirely of cabbage done 15 different ways – the beer however was excellent.

  48. “While all are biased the news coming out of Russia Today has been much more accurate than that of the BBC and the Guardian”- tell me, oh oracle, how you divine this?

    I watch the news. Thought that must have been obvious my friend.

  49. “I suspect that she understands the real nature of Putin better than most having grown up in Eastern GermanY.”

    Yeah. That’ll have prepared her for NSA spying on her personal conversations.

    Germany is very divided on the American desire to subjugate Russia and will be only too keenly aware that Europe itself is very vulnerable to any further destabilisation to the east.

    She’ll also be aware that the US doesn’t much mind that mighty Germany itself be futher undermined in the fallout.

  50. technicolour

    3 May, 2014 - 8:24 pm

    You watch the news? To judge the news?

    ‘My’ Germans wished that Germany had given Snowden asylum, which would have showed the US. Did he actually ask them?

    I remembered that when German ministers were showing signs of getting nouty about Iraq, the US had threatened to cut off imports of BMWs. At which point the more outspoken ministers went quiet…

  51. The important thing in life is to just go for it, even if you think you are useless, because if you try you get better – and despite all the (in my case physical problems (its nowt really – just myatonia congenita – never stopped me doing owt – I just faked it – pre-tensed my muscles before any test – which sometimes when immediately being summoned to the office in fury – at no notice – made me think really quickly and try and calm her down…by saying all the things I could think of- whilst I pre-tensed my muscles – so I could stand up normally…and walk quickly) I never took any drugs for it because my older brother and sister did..and are now dead. There’s nowt wrong with me so far as I know – and I am somewhat older than Craig. I dye my hair too – but it is mine (my Dad was bald at 25 – total genius mind)

    Thank You so Much

    We are off to the pub now…

    I’d love to meet you.

    Goodnight

    Tony

  52. Herbie @6.45pm

    Thanks for the link; the analysis of Stephen Cohen ex NYU, certainly seems more grounded in reality than that of Craig Murray, ex FCO.

    Craig is at least correct to say that, since the putsch that ousted Yanukovitch, this has become a ‘world domination game’. The latest piece of evidence for this is the statement issued by the State Dept after the horrendous events in Odessa yesterday-

    http://www.novinite.com/articles/160262/US,+Germany+Mourn+Victims+of+Ukraine%E2%80%99s+Odessa+Fire

    Note how the first paragraph better fits the sort of statements governments issue after natural disasters (‘tragedy’) rather than events caused by human agency. Note also how the deaths of so many are described simply as ‘unacceptable’. (I’m sure this is reminiscent of US statements at the time of Operation Cast Lead).

    It is quite plain from this statement that in this conflict, violence emanating for pro Kiev sources will not elicit outright condemnation from the US.

  53. John Goss, 8:02pm:

    “(stay away from Wikipedia, which says it is falling)”

    If Wikipedia lacks references to well-founded statistics that you know of, please update Wikipedia. It is your right, and could be considered a duty.

    Wikipedia is open to being edited by all, and if well-supported facts are added, removing them is a violation of Wikipedia’s rules.

    By merely complaining, and especially by urging people away, you abandon Wikipedia to those who publish the information that you dispute.

  54. Technicolour, you don’t criticise the BBC? What’s wrong with you? We all do on this blog, except for RD, Habbabkuk, Kempe and the usual shower of UK government stooges.

  55. technicolour

    3 May, 2014 - 8:53 pm

    Strange, John, isn’t it? I reserve the right to criticise appalling lack of news reporting (which may include the BBC) but equally strangely I do support the existence of a no commercial adverts channel.

  56. Clark, I tried once and there was so much rigmarole I gave up. Not easy. And there were people who seemed to have authority over others. As an authority on Robert Bage.

    “I spent time in Poland around that time and I would agree – I do remember being proudly shown a salad bar in a Warsaw restaurant which consisted entirely of cabbage done 15 different ways – the beer however was excellent.”

    I can believe it. I was in Minsk in 1982 and had a similar experience. I ordered Borsch and told them I was a vegetarian. It came with small pieces of meat in it. When I complained I was told they were only small pieces. Oh, and the beer was Zhugolovskii or some such name. It was not great either. The best beer I had in the former Soviet Union was in a bierkeller in Vilnius. :)

  57. Old Mark

    Operation Cast Lead was an appalling war crime because it targeted and massacred unarmed civilians. Including a lot of women and children. By contrast, my language for the death of aggressive participants in conflict is indeed that it is a tragedy. I have said that we will know a lot more about the truth from the profile of the victims in Odessa, but I am not anticipating many women or children. All information I hear so far indicates I am right.

    It is a tragic loss of life. But you can’t start battles and expect a situation where only the other side gets hurt.

  58. James Corbett in a video discussion with David L. Smith of the Geneva Business Insider, on the economics surrounding the American orchestrated Ukraine crisis:

    http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-871-geneva-business-insider-with-david-smith/

  59. “Strange, John, isn’t it? I reserve the right to criticise appalling lack of news reporting (which may include the BBC) but equally strangely I do support the existence of a no commercial adverts channel.”

    Me too. That’s the best thing about the BBC, lack of adverts, that and some of its drama, like Last Tango in Halifax, and serialisation of Classics, though I thought Jamaica Inn, though good in parts, lacked the atmosphere of the book.

  60. “you can’t start battles and expect a situation where only the other side gets hurt.”

    Uh, yeah. Tell it to the marines.

    It started in America.

  61. I’m heartened to see a few commentators still ready to intelligently ‘tell it as really it is’ – Canspeccy, Tony 0pmoc, John Goss, Mary and a few others but frankly, after maybe 8 years of trying to hang in there with Craig, this is my swan song on any further involvement here.

    In spite of his principled, career-destroying stance on torture I have become progressively disillusioned with his particular brand of hectoring liberal-left politics. His OTOH – OTO approach to the noose-tightening around Russia is just the latest manifestation of the way in which so-called ‘progressives’ in the west effectively facilitate the very worst manifestations of its violent arrogant aggression whilst simultaneously wringing their hands and denouncing it. I still can’t figure out quite what causes such blindeness.

    Craig may have been opposed to the West’s humanitarian bombing campaigns and terrorist violence facilitating in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria etc, …but what else was the West supposed to do in the face of such evil dictators? is the general message conveyed. And so it is with Putin and Ukraine.

    I suggest he attends this recent Moscow University class lecture by its Director of Russian Studies Andrei Fursov: Battleground Ukraine. It might help him to “See himself as ithers see him” – to plagiarise his national poet – and to get a rather more nuanced understanding of the Russian perspective on these things. To paraphrase and borrow from Le Carre’s traitor Bill Haden, a substantial majority support their president and “Hate the American State system very deeply – the oppression of the working class institutionalised” + any uppity 2nd-or-3rd world country that declines to see things their/our way; and as for GREAT Britain – “…. America’s street-walker” just about sums it up.

    The plain fact is that Putin has simply declined to allow Russia to be dragged down the same path. In so doing he has become probably THE most popular head of state on the entire planet – and thus a hated and marked man in the West. The Anglo-US-NATO behemoth has, it appears, decided that it is going to make Ukraine THE casus belli for doing to Russia what they failed to follow-through on during the Yeltsin years – and GOD HELP US ALL!

    Also, you might like to study this map of Russia’s clearly aggressive intent

    Cheerio.

  62. Resident Dissident 3 May, 2014 – 8:12 pm

    Don’t know where you live but in Birmingham we have litter-pickers whose work is never done. It would not be too much to ask for people to take their litter home. This morning when coming back from walking the dogs a kid on a bike 14/15 perhaps drained a coke can and threw it to the ground I shouted to him to find a bloody litter bin. He looked at me and ignored me as one who owns the planet. We all have a responsibility to help our council’s parks and gardens and highway departments. My observations of Poland were a comparison to what I see here. On the Moscow Metro in Soviet days I never saw litter. Perhaps litter is a by-product of the capitalist throw-away society.

  63. Joseph Kurtz

    3 May, 2014 - 9:18 pm

    Logging in for future comment, differ on this but great blog – following from Australia for 3 year

  64. Mr Murray wrote:

    “My expectation is there will not be many women, children or old people among the dead, but also there will not be many non-Ukrainian nationals. I expect these will prove to have been local Russian young men.”

    This shows the results of the actions of West’s neonazi stooges. Note the absence of weapons.

    A comment by ‘olivegreen’ in the comments to this lists the names and DOBs of the victims identified so far. A wide variety of ages and sexes. All are from Odessa.

    Just for that extra touch – on the social media pages of some of the neonazis, commentators counterpose images of roast turkey with all the trimmings against images presented in the first link above.

  65. “Russia and China are in the way of US world hegemony.”

    That’s exactly the bigger picture here, Herbie. Has been since PNAC forced Clinton to sign the Iraq Liberation Act when he “did not have sexual relations with that woman.”

    From Serbia onwards, the same deceit, provocation and outright aggression.

    Martin Luther King must be turning in his grave.

  66. Kelly ben Maimon

    3 May, 2014 - 10:24 pm

    Craig Murray: “You can’t start a revolution in another country… You can affect it at the margins. The UN Security Council should send in UN peacekeepers, which include both Russian and Western forces in close intergration.”

    A number of questions spring to mind. Judging by the terrifying violent escalation over last few days.
    (1) Why has Security Council not acted on your particular solution – assuming others have surely come to same conclusion? Surely, others can see that the situation is out of control.
    (2) Is it that some sort of resolution needs to be passed beforehand?
    (3) Do all member states need to agree?

  67. Resident Dissident

    3 May, 2014 - 10:34 pm

    “My expectation is there will not be many women, children or old people among the dead, but also there will not be many non-Ukrainian nationals. I expect these will prove to have been local Russian young men.”

    I am not sure that this will be the case and it certainly isn’t what is being reported in Russia – but I’m afraid that it something of an irrelevance. With the Russians encouraging and supporting the takeover of government buildings in what is part of the Ukraine it was only a matter of time before there was a reaction from Ukrainian nationalists and extremists – I’m afraid that is what happens in such situations. Neither behaviour is excusable – it only demonstrates the restraint shown by the vast majority of Ukrainians that something like this didn’t happen much earlier.

    Strong international pressure needs to be exerted on both sides to get the military and quasi military out of the situation – as they have already agreed to do so. However, given the way this is all being reported in Russia I get the distinct impression that accelerating the cycle of violence is all part of Putin’s plan for a further invasion.

  68. @Tony_Opmoc

    “How pathetic can a phony analyst be?” was a bit strong…

    Yes, I agree: an ill-mannered presumption. I take it back with apologies — but with the proviso that one would be a fool not to realize that my supposition is quite likely correct.

    Thanks for the fascinating link:

    http://linguistic-determinism-art-language.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/empiric-myopia.html

    It provides salutary warning of the obscurity of events despite the glib reports from all sides, and offers a fascinating hypothesis on Snowden, an otherwise very strange phenomenon.

  69. That’s tosh Res Diss. Recycled western MSM wilful misreading of the situation – imaginative fiction – and with some uniquely cringeworthy hyperbole of your own larded on top. Where is your urge for enquiry into the identities of the ‘Ukranian nationalists and extremists’ who committed this atrocity? The victims have been identified, subject to verification, they’re were mixed bag of local people, hounded through the streets by a baying mob and horribly murdered.

    Craig’s off-beam with this analysis too, some interesting historical summary, some painfully evident editorialising too, with a disconnect from reality many commenters have remarked upon. Maybe it’s a two-part essay and the flip side is in the works?

    Resident Dissident (3 May, 2014 – 10:34 pm) “it only demonstrates the restraint shown by the vast majority of Ukrainians that something like this didn’t happen much earlier.”

    So your saying they deserved incineration, sooner?

    You’re one sick puppy. This’ll come back to haunt you.

  70. Craig,
    somewhat perplexed by your statement “The difference between the Russian and the British Empires is that the British gave almost all of theirs back in the post-colonial period (a process that needs to be urgently completed). Russia gave back much of her Empire at the fall of the Soviet Union, but still retained a very great deal more than the British.” You may disagree but I would expect that a thief should give eventually back what he has stolen but who will resurrect the dead and remedy the lives of millions that have been ruined by the colonial powers. The question you perhaps should ask yourself is whether, and to what extent, is this giving back voluntary. Certainly not in my opinion. Your comparison is intended to fool the reader. How much have the US government given back to the Sioux or Apaches? Fucking nothing, I would say. The colonization of America was similar to that of Russia. A gradual expansion over large swathes of land with low population density. I hope that you will not be too surprised if I tell you that the British colonization was totally different as it involved subjugating countries that were rather distant from the motherland and had large populations like India. Keeping them for much longer would have been impossible. Thus what you mean by giving back is not dissimilar to a thief leaving behind a bronze statue on a doorstep that is too heavy to carry to the van. Or letting free a crocodile that has grown too large for his bathtub.

  71. One brilliant analysis. Nothing to add. Thanks.

    I’d have a reservation re. “The desire of ordinary Ukrainians to join the EU one day, and move closer to it now, is understandable.” If desires of “ordinary Ukrainians” are analysed, I don’t think “joining EU” would be anywhere in the first 100 of the most burning ones. Safety of existence, definitely. Lowers prices, higher wages, yes. But for the MAJORITY of them, European Union is just an imaginary creature, the way it was for the Poles, Czechs, etc., in the 1990s.

    Decisions on forming strategic alliances can only rarely be decided upon by the masses, and certainly not in countries characterised by precarious security situation. What the “ordinary Ukrainians” want is utterly irrelevant IMHO – people will want whatever TV tells them to, and there is more than enough studies to confirm this.

    People in the east of Ukraine now are told that joining Russia will bring stability and prosperity. I bet the majority believes in that. And will until local TV transmitters change hands.

    Sorry for my rant, and thanks again for a truly enlightening post.

  72. “From Serbia onwards, the same deceit, provocation and outright aggression.”

    Precisely, Mike.

    The problem with Craig’s approach is that it’s much too discrete, can’t see the wood for the trees.

    Picking on Putin for what are relatively minor matters in the Ukraine context and ignoring completely the West’s much graver involvement and its longer term plans.

    The West is determined that there is no challenge to its desire to impose its rules upon the whole planet. That’s why Russia and China are ringed with NATO bases. Either threatened into submission or bombed into submission.

    It’s as simple as that.

    You’re either for that plan or you’re not.

    And each element must be treated as part of the larger plan.

    In that context, Craig’s position just seems confused.

  73. Tony M,
    I agree with you that these blood hounds like the resident dissident craving for murder are intolerable. Why does Craig tolerates the implicit sadness of this hasbara clown that more blood has not been spilled in Odessa is difficult to understand.

  74. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 12:04 am

    Yonotan; I’ve taken the liberty of google tranzing your link (beware graphic images)

    Squonk was watching the live feed and the Odessa police were standing around when the victims sought shelter in the building, which was intentionally set afire. The cops seemed to be on task to prevent the wrong side from emerging unscathed.

  75. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 12:05 am

  76. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 12:21 am

    “In that context, Craig’s position just seems confused.”

    It’s hard to tell what the nuance within Craig’s ideology is. I wish he would dispense with his prickly condescension when he replies to comments, but perhaps it’s a defense mechanism. He has a very narrow spectrum on certain subjects, and sometimes it seems he feels his first response is sufficient for all but fools, so follow-ups are received with abject silence. It’s hard to tell if he’s stumped or just gives up the ghost of tolerance.

  77. None of the remaining provinces would opt to join Russia given the choice.

    I don’t think many in Ukraine or Russia are saying otherwise. At the outset of this US/NATO/Chatham House-induced “crisis” Putin stated that Russia did not seek additional territory, i.e., other than Crimea, where 93% of those who actually voted, i.e., about 83%, are said to have voted for union with Russia (which seems not implausible), and where Russia has based its Black Sea fleet for most of the time since 1783, i.e., since before the US had appropriated most of the territory of the North Americas Amerindians.

    Consistent with this Russian position, Russia’s English language media refer to the E. Ukraine protesters as Federalists, not separatists. “Separatist” is the term used by the Western media and Kyiv regime after it became obviously absurd to use the term “terrorist” for those in Eastern Ukraine angry at the intention of the Nazi-backed Kyiv junta to deny them the use of Russian as an official language.

    You advocate Scotch separatism, but would deny Russian-speaking Ukrainians the right to the use of their first language or the right to a referendum on provincial autonomy. This seems like truly astounding hypocrisy.

    As for the blather about the wonderful improvement in the standard of living of East European members of the EU, the fact is many in the EU are suffering far greater economic stress than the people of Russia, where the GDP has tripled in the last 25 years. In fact, if Ukraine were to become a member of the EU now, most of the best educated young people would grab an EU passport and leave for Berlin or London, while the majority at home would be saddled with years of austerity, mass unemployment and looting of the economy by oligarchs of both East and West.

  78. Another important thing to know – especially as it gets warmer – obviously you can’t take the piss – is to ask for a pint of tap water – and insist that you are not paying for it…I am not sure if it is still a legal requirement..but it is a very long standing cultural, accepted thing in the watering holes I go to with my wife – particularly if they both have a beer festival on – and a Brilliant Band.

    Best Drink of the Day

    Tony

  79. @ RD
    This is of course the sort of plan Canspeccy would like the West to follow as well

    Still pushing the opposition-to-genocide-is-racism meme? Good luck with that!

  80. Would be sorry if Wikispooks ceases to comment, especially after the Moscow University class lecture of Andrei Fursov posted in his comment above. I have never read such an in-depth analysis of who the oligarchs are, what are the powers behind those with an interest in Ukraine, how Russia is trying to control the beast unleashed on the world in the form of NATO wars. His analysis of Putin and the Russian government being one step ahead, and preparing to defend itself against any similar aggression. And the analysis makes sense. It finishes with a stark warning about the information war that I believe should not be ignored.

    “Well, we shouldn’t be ashamed to learn from the West how to operate in the informational domain. Their policies are of an offensive nature. If you are reacting, then you’re one step behind and you’re going to lose. In the Crimean Victory we won because our leadership, above all the president, he was always a step ahead of the opponent. He took a step. They reacted. He set the agenda.”

    They did win. They won Crimea. I recently applied for a new passport. Up to four weeks I think it said it would take if I remember right. In three days maybe less everybody in Crimea was issued with passports. In some ways I feel Russia is ahead not just in the information war, but in their analyses of situations, and see the bigger picture better than those they learnt from. I am really concerned about what is happening in the Ukraine, for the people killed in Odessa the images of which are disturbing. But thank you Yonatan for posting.

    I still suspect (conspiracy theory of course) the Russians shot down two missiles when Israel tried to ramp up the pressure in Syria, because after that US/NATO (same thing) backed off when we all thought they were previously creating an excuse to go in. Also Russian intelligence was obviously ahead of the game in releasing audio footage of Catherine Ashton/Urmus Paet and, presumably, a recorded meeting with Victoria Nuland, Klitschko, Yatsenyuk and thugs.

  81. Continued from previous thread… RT are still claiming that civilians have been murdered by Right Sector in K, although they are playing down the Nazi imagery. Jury has to still be out unless verified independently. BBC always used to make sure they had at least two independent sources – is that still true today?

    I’ve looked through some of the thousands of pictures on social media show the lead up to the burning of the TU headquarters, and pictures of people brought out of the building. There are pictures of Molotov cocktails being produced by the sort of photogenic females that we all saw in the Maidan protests. No doubt in my mind now that the MM have been nurturing a neo-Nazi mindset amongst the young in Western Ukraine.

    There were also pictures of charred bodies that hadn’t been removed… hence the rise to 46 today. Whilst some may have been pro-Russian activists, there were probably also people working in the building that was stormed and burned, and we know how much our right-wing friends like trades unionists…

    We should all be aware of the words of Pastor Niemoiller, because it seems to me that we potentially have a 4th Reich here in the making on Russia’s doorstep. And the “useful fools” blame Russia for this?!!?

  82. K = Kramatorsk

    An interesting thought that has to invite a reaction:

    “The illegal Kiev puppets get more money if they can delivery west and east Ukraine to IMF and US. As we see they’re willing to kill to get the extra billions.”

    (Comment a few minutes ago on RT website)

  83. CanSpeccy wrote “Still pushing the opposition-to-genocide-is-racism meme? Good luck with that!”

    Still pushing the allowing-any-immigraton-whatsoever-is-genocide meme? Good luck with that!

  84. Only been to Poland once and then only to Warsaw, but from the few people I spoke to it seemed like it could well be the case that the country was getting better off overall but inequality growing so much that many people were worse off (as with most of the developed world). Was told the same people who were senior public servants under the Communist party were now running the privatised firms and the stock exchange. Then again i was only there once so don’t have anything to compare it to.

  85. Craig

    Your use of the term ‘aggressive participants’ is an addition to the lexicon. I don’t recall it being used by you last winter, when Yanukovitch was still in office, and events like this-

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/protesters-storm-police-headquarters-chaos-spreads-lviv-n33576

    and this-

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/23/ukraine-protesters-storm-office-and-force-regional-governor-to-resign-as-demonstrations-continue-in-smouldering-kyiv/

    were happening elsewhere in Ukraine

  86. Wikispooks I endorse the stated wish of others here, that you continue to offer your words of wisdom to us out in the wider world. Perhaps if you might just accept (for better or worse) Craig’s position on various issues, your contributions are valued by many others, and who knows, the scales might fall from the eyes of those who can’t ‘see’.

    We can’t change others, but at least hang in with those who care to see all sides of any given situation. Thank You.

  87. @DM

    Still pushing the allowing-any-immigraton-whatsoever-is-genocide meme?

    Your sneer is based on a lie.

    Get the facts right and you demolish your own position and reveal your own anti-British racism.

    Allowing mass immigration when the fertility of the indigenous population is below the replacement rate results in population replacement, which is genocide.

    But it’s a waste of time, I realize, pointing out facts to pig-headed immigration fanatics and dupes of the globalist elite.

  88. “Were western governments encouraging pro-western groups in Ukraine? Yes, that’s their job. Did this include covert support? Yes. Were the Russians doing precisely the same thing with their supporters? Yes, that’s their job too.”

    That’s their job only in the sense that it was Jose Rodriguez’ job to cut the tits off nuns. As the World Court put it, “The Court notes that there have been in recent years a number of instances of foreign intervention in one State for the benefit of forces opposed to the government of that State. It concludes that the practice of States does not justify the view that any general right of intervention in support of an opposition within another State exists in contemporary international law.” So the US was in the wrong before the revolution established itself as the new government. If, as seems likely, the successor state breached international obligations in coming to power, all nations have a responsibility not to recognize the wrongfully-established circumstances. Hands-off is best, no doubt, but the Russian and US hands-on are not precisely equivalent.

    Agreed that Ukraine is now a pawn of great-power confrontation in multilateral breach of the non-intervention principle. That means the only sure way to defuse the conflict is to set up a neutral Ukraine. In principle that’s for the state to decide but the threat to peace might override that. Let’s hope cooler heads short-circuit the NATO/SCO tug-of-war with a neutral Ukraine.

  89. Sadly a very one-sided historical analysis
    Craig fails to mention the fact that while many Russian speakers east of the Dnieper see themselves as Ukrainian- many of the neo-nazis west of the Dneiper do not. While Nuland’s $5b is likely highly exaggerated, as is much else of from the neo-con camp, the financial inputs fro State Dept’s the Endowment for Democracy in the past 10 years combined with the resourcing and training by Western intelligence agencies of the neo-nazi parties in Western Ukraine during the entire period of the Cold War and after are certainly likely to total in the hundreds of millions of dollars. From the West perspectives the neo-nazis are sen as foolish tools to control Ukraine’s geopolitical resources and a stepping stone to Russia but there values are clear- to rid Ukraine of all non Ukrainian speaking peoples
    It is undoubtedly true that there is a large contingent of extreme right wing groups in Russia itself, and Putin and his entourage are definitely not in the liberal and morally laissez-faire camp either (it would appear not many Russian citizens are!) However to characterize Putin as some demonic dictator about to re-take all of Eastern Europe is both bizarre and superficial.
    Unquestionably there will be Russian intelligence agents on the ground in Eastern Ukraine, but even the US State Department cant find factual evidence that actually sticks of Russian troops on the ground. The usefulness of Svoboda and the Right Sektor and other right wing groups, to the West is purely in their hatred of Russia and the evils done to Ukraine in the name of the USSR.

    Russian speaking Ukrainians are undoubtedly at risk in this new environment of Ukrainian “nationalism”, which has been heavily supported by the West -to pretend otherwise is, at best, sloppy analysis.

  90. I liked Tony’s post at 8.34.

    I don’t feel I have much to add to this discussion. Its too difficult.

  91. Ukrainian Ukrainians have a lot to be bitter about such as Holodomor. If I had lived through that then I might have found myself on the wrong side in WW11. Russian Ukrainians have a good argument about NATO encroachment. Don’t let it become a new Syria.

  92. It is a good article. but before posting it, you should show it to a native speaker of Russian. You write, “as I have repeatedly explained, absolutely everybody in the former Soviet Union knows precisely what is asked in the questions of Gradzvanstvo and Narodnosch)” The word your are seeking is Ethnicity or Nazionalnost Национальность. It is also commonly refered to as The Fifth Line Пятая Графа (as it was the fifth line of the Soviet passport (I used to have one). Now, Gradzvanstvo гражданство is citizenship, for example, British citizenship Гражданство Великобритании or Британское гражданство). Narodnosch is a misspeling of the word narodnost народность and this word has two separate meanings. First is “small nation” Daghestan has about two hundred small nations, all with their mutually incomprehensible languages (Darginians, Avarians, Lezgins, Tats (the Mountain Jews).Second meaning is “Respect for what common people believe) English narodnost is a claim that marmite is really tasty and should be a part of lunch in every school, Scottish narodnost is ordering that all Scottish bankers be ethnically Scottish, wear kilts to work or be fired. This is a part of the Count Uvarov’s famous triad “Absolute Monarchy, Orthodox Faith, Respect for Folk Traditions” Самодержавие, Православие, Народность. There are many other points I could raise, but my post is already long. My last point: great respect and admiration for you, Mr Murray. You were a great Ambassador.

  93. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 7:33 am

    Tony M

    You may think I ‘m sick – but at least I am not dishonest – read what I said “Neither behaviour is excusable” Yes there should be an enquiry and action against those responsible for the deaths in Odessa – just as there should be an enquiry into those responsible for the murders and torture going on in Donetsk and the helicopters being shot down by SAM missiles. However, the immediate concern should be to stop any escalation.

  94. To clarify the ‘Cheerio’ in my last post.

    I admit the post was written in exasperation with its attendant distortions.

    What I mean by ‘swan-song’ and ‘cheerio’ is this: Like others here, I currently have far more sites on my RSS feed than I can possibly do justice to. I therefore have to have periodic clear-outs. Craig’s blog is now no longer on the list; that’s all – which means I am unlikely to have my attention drawn to his posts unless referred to them in some other way. Much more useful and clear-sighted stuff elsewhere I’m finally forced to admit.

    On the OSCE military observers detention issue dealt with in the previous post. This was Putin’s measured reply to a journalists question about it. There is also useful stuff from him about the US leadership of the Kiev Junta and Western sanctions.

    If only we had a leader of his stature in the west, instead of pathetic puppets of hidden (but no less obvious) interests that we have to endure, there might be some hope for the future. As it is the internal logic of the dying globalist system looks set fair to wreak vastly more damage on the planet and its peoples in its death-throws – GHUA again.

    I’ll check this thread for a while, but otherwise that’s it from me.

  95. Obomber the joker. Sick. A bonehead.

    “Colorado legalized marijuana this year. I hope it doesn’t lead to a bunch of paranoid people who think the government is out to get them, and listening to their phone calls,” the president said, nodding to the N.S.A.’s mass surveillance programs.
    http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/04/barack-obama-2014-white-house-correspondents-dinner-jokes-zingers

    On Putin, pronounced Poot’n

    ‘Obama made fun of conservative television hosts’ talk about Putin’s bare chest and one’s comment last year about Putin being headed for a Nobel Peace Prize. “To be fair, they give those to just about anybody these days,” said Obama, a laureate himself.’

    Yes Obomber you did get one didn’t you. As Shillary said, ‘We came, We saw, He died’. That was nice for Gaddafi, Osama Bin Laden and all those you have killed extrajudicially by drone, Hellfire missile and the bullet.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/u-s-president-pokes-fun-at-cnn-over-extensive-missing-jet-coverage-1.2631376

  96. Please don’t leave us Wikispooks. I remember your invaluable piece on the Dr Rola/Syria lies carried on ZBC. The lies continue eg stories via Mr Pannell of barrel bombs dropped from helicopters on Aleppo. Your record is needed. Kind regards.

  97. Peacewisher

    4 May, 2014 - 8:54 am

    This blog really needs you, Wikispooks. I’ve only been an occasional poster, but agreed with most of what Craig has written most of the time until the Ukrainian matter arose. He is clearly displaying a view of Russia based on the cold war and the USSR, which I suspect is still prevalent in the FO, although Russia has clearly moved on.

    His dislike of Russia comes across clearly in “Murder in Samarkind”, but in that book he was brave enough to publish an “Enron” connection with the Taliban. I think his analysis on this occasion is dangerously wrong, but at least he wants peace in a neutral Ukraine and he is open to honest debate about it.

  98. I was looking to see who wrote the piece in the Independent.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-kremlin-insists-it-cannot-control-prorussian-separatists-and-calls-for-dialogue-with-west-9321412.html

    Oliver Poole

    Oliver Poole is an award-winning Foreign Correspondent for the Evening Standard and Independent titles. In his career he has reported from war zones including Libya, Afghanistan, Somalia and Iraq, where he was based during the worst years of the civil war. He has written two books, “Red Zone: Five Bloody Years in Baghdad’ and ‘Black Knights: On the Bloody Road to Baghdad’. He was previously a Foreign Reporter for The Daily Telegraph, and has written for the BBC, Guardian, Times and South China Morning Post.

    ‘….and Iraq, where he was based during the worst years of the civil war.’

    If he sees the Bush/Blair PNAC slaughter enacted on Iraq, then abandon all expectation of truth from the British media.

    !!!!!!!!!

  99. If he sees the Bush/Blair PNAC slaughter enacted on Iraq as a ‘civil war’, then abandon all expectation of truth from the British media.

  100. “I’ve only been an occasional poster, but agreed with most of what Craig has written most of the time until the Ukrainian matter arose. He is clearly displaying a view of Russia based on the cold war and the USSR, which I suspect is still prevalent in the FO, although Russia has clearly moved on.”

    This is a fair assessment. I have not been back but to Russia. The cost of a flight and accommodation is one reason, which shows just how much it has moved on. However I’m hoping (planning) to go when Russia hosts the World Cup in 2018, providing the Yanks/Zionists have not succeeded in their aims of world domination to cover up the incredibly super-fast growing mountain of debt under which their economy is drowning. When it drowns, or we are annihilated, whichever comes first, it will be the death of modern economic systems as we know them. Those who survive will have to try and cobble together what’s left and build a more moral society, which excludes oligarchy, monopoly, monarchy and hopefully the anarchy these non-egalitarian systems spawn.

  101. Craig,

    Re: “British did not commit genocide of the existing populations”

    How does the British treatment of the Australian Aboriginals sit with that statement?

    “The following year, the Human Rights Commission handed down a landmark report on the “Stolen Generation” that described how tens of thousands of aboriginal children of mixed race were taken from their parents between the 20s and 60s as part of a systematic policy of “breeding out the colour”. The president of the commission, Sir Roland Wilson, said, “We as a committee have decided that what was done meets the international definition of genocide? which is the attempt to destroy a people, a culture.””
    http://johnpilger.com/articles/fixed-race

    “The most enduring and insidious Murdoch campaign has been against the Aboriginal people, who were dispossessed by the arrival of the British in the late 18th century and have never been allowed to recover. “Nigger hunts” continued into the 1960s and beyond. The officially-inspired theft of children from Aboriginal families, justified by the racist theories of the eugenics movement, produced those known as the Stolen Generation and in 1997 was identified as genocide. Today, the first Australians have the shortest life expectancy of any of the world’s 90 indigenous peoples. Australia imprisons Aborigines at five times the rate South Africa during the apartheid years. In the state of Western Australia, the figure is eight times the apartheid rate. ”

    “The City of Sydney ruling is a very different gesture, and admirable; for it reflects not a liberal and limited “sorry campaign”, seeking feel-good “reconciliation” rather than justice, but counters a cowardly movement of historical revision in which a collection of far-right politicians, journalists and minor academics claimed there was no invasion, no genocide, no Stolen Generation, no racism.”

    And so on…..
    https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=site:johnpilger.com+aboriginal+genocide&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=_f9lU4SnKMqI0AXHjoHwDA

  102. CM: “the British gave almost all of theirs [empire] back”

    Laughable. The British establishment did not “give back” the empire. They lost it. For reasons such as native revolt, growing workers power, growing US empire, German empire and two world wars…

    To repeatedly assert, as you keep doing, that the British establishment gifted the end of empire is a delusion that, perhaps uncoincidentally, mirrors your personal moment of revelation about the horror of empire. However, a delusion it is.

    The British establishment to this day adapt tactics to cling to the new ways of empire. See this, newly found in the national archives:

    Foreign Secretary Alec Douglas-Home, 1970:

    “Our position as a permanent member of the Security Council gives us special opportunities for using the United Nations as a forum to exert our influence. Indirectly the United Nations development assistance activities may help to preserve Western influence in the third world”.

  103. Hat tip to Tony Opmoc LINK,

    The Ukrainian global 9-11 redux seems as if the US is probing with every dirty trick in their bag to learn if they have any magic left. They do not. What this tells us is that they are alone and on the run. They burned every bridge, broke every treaty, and have no friends left, no allies; even Israel turned its back. The Nobel Laureate didn’t get a dime from the House of Saud. Moreover, Russia didn’t even sniff the bait. This in turn tells us that the cartel, not only had to plan the operation themselves, they had to pay for it too! Can you imagine! Obviously, they tried to do it on the cheep by assembling a coalition of criminals. Americans absolutely could not do it, they are tired, dead broke and sick of the slaughtering.

    Putin, emasculated the coalition of the criminally insane and turned operation Crimea into operation Dirty Dick Chaney (AKA Obama) meets Lorena Bobbitt. As Putin said, “What is happening today before our eyes is the end of one international system and the birth of a qualitatively different one.” In other words, US lawless savagery is over. Putin understands that America can not be bargain with, it has to be stopped. Russia was not given a choice. The barbarians were at their gate.

    Over the next months, in the controlled media, we are going to be subjected to a tidal wave of agonizing talking heads, Obama apologists and spin doctors, ad nauseam. Please, spare us, the ignominy. However, the one thing that is news worthy and will not be on any news program, is that if we don’t get our act together, if we don’t stop the senseless murdering of entire cultures, and soon, the world will stop us, one way or another.

    What can we do? Boo them everywhere they show their face in public and stop watching TV, especially the controlled news. That would be a good start. However, the smartest way I know how to reverse the destructive path we have taken is to rebuild our culture by diverting funds from war to education and the arts; the rest will follow naturally.

  104. (T)here is one thing anyone with half a brain should have worked out by now. The ruling 1%, the ultra-wealthy, in both Russia and the West are so interconnected with each other that they are playing the game of world domination while trying at the same time to make sure nobody super-rich really loses his money.

    Only up to a point. Berezovsky, for example, lost his.

  105. Wikispooks 4 May, 2014 – 7:46 am
    “If only we had a leader of his [Putin] stature in the west”

    What a truly pathetic statement. Really fucking idiotic. You, my internet warrior friend, are deluded.

    Putin is a killer. He is a greedy self serving elitist. He is no different to the establishment here. CM is right when he points out that the rich and powerful on both sides have more in common with each other than they do with us.

    Your Andrei Fursov article is as partial as Craig’s here. Kasparov my arse. What do you thinks happens to dissenters in Russia? The same as what happens here. Except more so.

  106. Some points:

    a) I can see several comments asking Wikispooks not to leave but not the one saying the is going. The answer to which is that the only two people who have ever been banned are still commenting, and that nobody is forced to be here, but Wikispooks would be very much missed. Frankly, I don’t see the point of only going to blogs where you agree with everything. I don’t value or devalue people according to whether they agree with me or not. Wikispooks comments have been very welcome for many years, and his website is excellent.

    My views on Russia and Putin have been very consistent. Russia is much less free than the West – a really nasty autocracy with a still more vicious capitalism. My views are hardly new – seven years ago I was rather ahead of my time in warning very loudly about German energy dependency on Russia and Russian human rights abuses.
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2007/06/russian_journal/

    I come at this from a human rights perspective – where Putin scores very badly – and from an anti-imperialist perspective. From Tashkent the world looks different and you understand that there is a struggle firstly, within Islamic ex-colonies to gain freedom from Russian trained colonial elites like Karimov, and secondly in the still colnised Islamic colonial areas like Chechnya, Dagestan and Tatarstan to get freedom from the Russian Empire at all.

    On genocide, yes kiwi I stand corrected on Australia, thanks. On the end of the British Empire, I have a different view to the dogmatic Marxists among you as to the extent this was entirely due to local resistance, or to which ideological change in the UK itself post 1945 hastened it. That is however irrelevant.

    The point is that the British Empire did end, almost completely and needs to be finally ended. The Russian Empire has not ended – undeniably in Chechnya and Dagestan – is reasserting itself, and that Putin is a right wing nationalist imperialist.

  107. Matthew Maly,

    Thanks for the compliment. You cannot “misspell” a Russian word in the English alphabet. Transliteration from Cyrillic is entirely a matter of taste. There is no “correct” spelling. I accept your correction on meaning as my Russian has got very rusty. My point however was that throughout the FSU the distinction between ethnicity and nationality is well understood as both were included on passports and all official documents.

  108. I agree with your overall assessment and take, but it is only correct to call Tatarstan/Tataria a colonised Islamic area if you wish to make an argument rooted in the 16th century.

  109. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 May, 2014 - 11:39 am

    “‘Obama made fun of conservative television hosts’ talk about Putin’s bare chest and one’s comment last year about Putin being headed for a Nobel Peace Prize. “To be fair, they give those to just about anybody these days,” said Obama, a laureate himself.’

    Yes Obomber you did get one didn’t you. As Shillary said, ‘We came, We saw, He died’. That was nice for Gaddafi, Osama Bin Laden and all those you have killed extrajudicially by drone, Hellfire missile and the bullet.”
    _____________________

    It would be nice if people ceased posting sour dross.

    “To be fair, they give those to just about anybody these days,” said Obama, a laureate himself.’

    Has the thought occurred that Obama might – might just – have been making a joke about himself? Demonstrating a sense of humour so sadly lacking in some of his detractors here and elsewhere?

    BTW, I hadn’t realised that Khadafi was killed by Obama or even by another American, but hey, you learn something new every day on here!

  110. N_

    Like Ireland, for example? Absolutely it is a colony, as all of Ireland was and part still is.

  111. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 May, 2014 - 11:57 am

    Craig

    “The point is that the British Empire did end, almost completely and needs to be finally ended.”
    ____________________

    Agree largely with your follow-up posts, including the one from which the above quotation comes.

    As far as I can see, the Empire now consists of only a handful of rather small territories – Falklands, Ascension, St Helena, BAT,….

    You might prefer to answer on a future, more appropriate thread (if at all) but I’d be interested to know exactly what you mean by finally ending the Empire. Do you mean granting independence to those few small territories, most if not all of which would be unviable or only barely viable as independent entities (including economically)? If so, are you aware of any desire for independence in all or any of these territories, andd what would be gained from independence from the point of view of both the mother country and those territories themselves? Or are you thinking of matters like judicial “independence” (eg the Privy Council’s rôle)as well? Or, finally, is this just a postion of principle you’ve adopted?

  112. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 May, 2014 - 12:02 pm

    Craig

    Your reply to N_ prompts me to ask you a further question: do you think that the French DOM-TOMs are in reality part of a French Empire (and should therefore also be given independence) or do you accept that they are integral parts of the French Republic?

  113. @Craig. You make the point that Ireland was settled centuries ago too. But one major difference between Ireland and Tatarstan/Tataria is that the vast majority of people who live in Ireland today call themselves Irish, whereas a large proportion of the population of Tatarstan/Tataria call themselves not Tatar but Russian. Far from being a colonial elite, like the British in say India, the Russians in T/T are people of all classes. Granted, there is a slight overweighting of Tatars as against Russians in lower social groups, but the imbalance is nowhere near as stark as to indicate Russian colonialism in an Islamic country as you depict it. Incidentally, whereas the class mix among Russians in T/T is about the same as it is among Tatars in that country, the same is not true among some of the other ethnic groups with a smaller presence there, such as the Chuvash, Udmurts, Georgians and Jews.

    Nor is Northern Ireland any longer essentially a settler state, any more than the US is a European colony or collection of such.

  114. Sofia Kibo Noh

    4 May, 2014 - 12:29 pm

    Craig.

    Thanks for your perspective.

    Some footage here of Kramatorsk citizens and Ukrainian soldiers yesterday.

    What would you say is going on in this 3 min clip?

    It seems to me like an awesome display of raw courage by citizens who are clearly facing the threat of lethal force with their own bodies and vocal chords. Also a display of courage by the Ukrainian soldiers who clearly disobeyed orders and know there will be consequences.

    Any other explanations?

  115. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 May, 2014 - 12:30 pm

    O/T – forgive me!

    @ Technicolour

    You are perhaps no longer following the “Apartheid Israel poison is out” thread and I therefore allow myself to tell you that I’ve posted a reply (at 13h25 today) to something you wrote there and which I believes merits a rejoinder.

  116. Ukrainians have divided loyalties. A great majority of them want to see their country free of Russian or Western domination. The Jewish oligarchs and powerful Western Jewish lobby groups want Ukraine to become an American while 18% of country’s Muslim population prefer to stay neutral in this conference.

    The convicted/pardoned Jewish former Assistant Secretary of State Elliott Abrams, in a post at the CFR magazine (March 1, 2014) compares the situation in Ukraine to Obama’s caution on attacking Syria or Iran.

    “Those who are wondering whether we need to pass sanctions legislation now and put more pressure on Iran should take all this into account. Like Putin, the ayatollahs likely see our failure to act in Syria (indeed our willingness to be “rescued” from action by Putin) as a sign that they can drive a hard bargain indeed with us over their nuclear weapons program, giving up nearly nothing and getting sanctions relief. And now they see us reacting (so far) to Russian aggression in Ukraine, sending troops across the border into the Crimea, with tut-tutting,” wrote the Jewish convict.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/03/06/chief-rabbi-wants-american-boots-in-ukraine/

  117. O/T Is there some state agenda ongoing ref the IRA and Sinn Fein? I haven’t heard much about the Protestant crimes in this reworking of the past. Why now?

    Adams has been under arrest for 4 days now.

    The BBC say:
    Sinn Féin accused of ‘blackmailing’ PSNI over Gerry Adams
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27272696

    This morning Sue McGregor revisited the Omagh bombing on BBC Radio 4.
    The Omagh Bombing
    Duration: 45 minutes
    First broadcast:Sunday 04 May 2014
    The Omagh bomb was the worst massacre in Northern Ireland’s modern history. On Saturday the 15th of August a massive bomb placed by the so-called Real IRA killed two unborn twins, six men, twelve women and eleven children. The dead included Protestants, Catholics and a Mormon. The blast wave was so powerful that the bodies of several victims were never found.
    The bombing was “a barbaric act intended to wreck Ireland’s aspirations for peace and reconciliation,” said President Clinton who came to walk amongst the wreckage. Only four months earlier Northern Ireland’s main political parties had signed up to the Good Friday agreement, power sharing was on its way and the Provisional IRA was on ceasefire.
    No one has ever been convicted in connection with the massacre at Omagh but in April 2014, Seamus Daly was arrested and charged with 29 counts of murder over the attack.
    The 43-year-old bricklayer, originally from Culloville, County Monaghan, but now residing in Jonesborough, County Armagh, also faces counts of causing the explosion in Omagh and possession of a bomb in the County Tyrone market town with intent to endanger life or property.
    In this episode of The Reunion, recorded shortly before charges were brought against Daly, Sue MacGregor is joined by Kevin Skelton whose wife Mena was killed by the bomb, Michael Gallagher and Victor Barker whose sons Aiden and James also died, former RUC police constable Richard Scott, and by BBC Northern Ireland’s Political Editor Mark Devenport.
    Producer: Emily Williams
    Series Producer: David Prest

  118. Ref http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/05/world-domination/#comment-455925

    Has the thought occurred that Obama might – might just – have been LAUGHING IN OUR FACES?????

  119. Habbabkuk seems to be in a time zone that is different to the UK’s?? He says he posted a comment to Technicolour at 13.25hrs on the apartheid thread. It actually went up at 12.25hrs BST.

    ???

  120. Another Revolt
    March 1, 2014, the clamor of Kiev

    by LAURA MANUELIDIS

    In vivid night no flags flew—
    Only stars, shiftless, spoke the wind—
    Wind that obeys no boundaries

    Blossoming the good
    from the buried bones again
    Their thick sweet opening under smoke

    As the pockmarked earth spread scabs
    To heal the poison, the unceasing wounds
    that separate the tribes—of howling

    Wolves: from the elephants shy in their
    compassionate tears
    Backing away from man and woman
    Kind— to regain the original place
    of everything and nothing at once: Nameless.

    Laura Manuelidis is a physician and neuroscientist. She has been published in diverse literary journals including: The Nation, Oxford Poetry, Innisfree Poetry, Evergreen Review, Counterpunch, and Poetry Magazine . Her two poetry books: Out of Order, and One / divided by Zero, are available on Amazon.
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/02/manuelidis-orloski-kangalee/

  121. My sincere thanks to Wikispooks for his fact finding and straight line comments here. His link to Andrey Fursov’s explanation of the behind the scene trepidations of oligrachs with strong western connections has made my day.

    Keep happy and healthy, I’m sure that many here will frequent your blog and resources in future, cheerio

  122. “Any other explanations?”

    It can be assumed because of the population ethnicities of Ukraine that a good number will be pro-Russian. I do not think these soldiers want to open fire on unarmed civilians in their own country. It’s a bit like Westminster wanting to take back,say, Newcastle (if Newcastle did an Occupy takeover). These armed forces personnel were nothing like the angry western-funded mob that was bussed in specially to murder the peaceful occupiers of a Trade Union building in Odessa. Also, they probably know already that Eastern Ukraine is a lost cause and the best this illegal government can hope for is trying to keep its blood-stained hands on Western Ukraine.

    My own prediction is that they will lose that battle too. Now everybody in the world knows what Ukraine knew yesterday: that the Nazi thugs, paid for by the Oligarchs and the west, have murdered the ordinary citizens (men and women) of Odessa, and it will be a hard public relations exercise to win back support for the thugs in power. A damage-limitation exercise is underway and Yatsenyuk has, allegedly blamed the security services for allowing it to happen (BBC). Odessa is not far from Moldova, which is strongly pro-Russian, and may even cede to Russia before too long. What then? Russia will have to protect its interests.

  123. Craig:

    Just so you know, Raphael Lemkin himself wrote about what happened to the Tasmanian Aboriginals as an example of genocide.
    http://press.anu.edu.au/apps/bookworm/view/Humanities+Research+Vol+XVI.+No.+2.+2010/5271/docker.xhtml

  124. H.G Wells also wrote in ‘The War of the Worlds':

    “And before we judge of them too harshly we must remember what ruthless and utter destruction our own species has wrought, not only upon animals, such as the vanished bison and the dodo, but upon its inferior races. The Tasmanians, in spite of their human likeness, were entirely swept out of existence in a war of extermination waged by European immigrants, in the space of fifty years.”

  125. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 1:47 pm

    Odessa is not far from Moldova, which is strongly pro-Russian, and may even cede to Russia before too long.

    Moldova is not strongly pro-Russia – a part of it Transdnistra is. Another demonstration of Mr Goss’s lack of knowledge about this part of the world.

  126. Further clarification following Craig @11:09:

    All I meant – and still mean by ‘Cheerio’ and leaving etc is that this blog is no longer on my grossly overcrowded RSS feed list. Nothing more. Which in turn means that I am unlikely to see further posts or contribute comments unless specifically pointed at them from elsewhere.

    As a clearly principled individual who has paid a heavy price for his honesty, I still wish Craig well but there are many many other sources of informed comment and analysis competing for attention and, for reasons discussed in many previous post comments, this blog has been moving steadily down my ‘must-read’ list; that’s all. Craig’s Russo-phobia is simply the last straw for me.

    Thanks to supportive commentators and I expect the wiki to be online for the foreseeable future.

  127. You do show your ignorance RD time and again. 27% of the population of Chisinau, the capital, is Russian. A lot of the culture too is Russian. Transnistra treats itself separately and is a very thin strip of land.on the border of Ukraine.

    Another demonstration of Dr jekyll’s lack of knowledge about this part of the world.

  128. New
    Pro-Russian activists attack the main police station in Odessa in south Ukraine, two days after violence left some 42 people dead.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27276120

  129. Ashton in that speech to the Ministerial Council of the OSCE December 2012.

    ‘Mr Chairman, as you have indicated, protracted conflicts continue to pose a serious threat to stability in the OSCE region. The conflicts in Georgia, in the Republic of Moldova and the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict are costly, both politically and economically. And they also put limitations on international cooperation.

    We continue to play a key role in the resolution of these conflicts, by co-chairing the Geneva talks and participating in the “5+2” negotiations on Transnistria. The time has come in the negotiations for the parties to agree on the basic principles for a future settlement. The EU supports confidence building measures to help this process.’

    http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/134083.pdf

    She’s into everything and everywhere with her own fascist foreign service set up.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_External_Action_Service

  130. Ah yes, Wikispooks.

    I had a look at the site some time ago – the 9/11 page I think it was. There was a long list of the alleged masterminds, all with a little Star of David pictured next to their image. Lovely.

    Afraid to say I didn’t venture any further into the site.

  131. Why was this body inflicted on us when there is a United Nations organisation. All part of the political superstructure of the good ship SS European Union. Does anyone else remember when the EU started as the ‘Common Market’?

    OSCE: Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe
    http://www.osce.org/who/108218

    Does the existence of the OSCE explain why Mr Ban Ki Moon is so quiet at the moment?

  132. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 3:08 pm

    Carry on digging Mr Goss

    What proportion of the population of Moldova is Russian?
    What are the other 73% of Chisinau?
    Why is it now Chisinau rather than Chisinov?
    What is the main language in Moldova?
    To what other European language is it closely related?
    Which members of the United Nations recognise Transdnistria as a separate state (Mr Goss obviously does – probably as it is the last Stalinist enclave within Europe and therefore a good thing in the eyes of himself and Putin) ?
    How does having 27% of the population in the capital equate to the entire country being strongly pro Russian?
    To which country does Moldova always give 12 points in Eurovision?
    Is the US hiding the Malaysian Airlines plane in the Rezina limestone quarry?

    You really ha

  133. “You really ha ”

    Spit it out man.

  134. R.D. Have you been to Moldova?

  135. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 3:18 pm

    “All part of the political superstructure of the good ship SS European Union.”

    Hardly the old Soviet states were members from the beginning

    http://www.osce.org/who/history

    Of course old Soviets never had much time for the Helsinki Accords and all that bad behaviour it encouraged among its psychiatric patients.

  136. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 3:20 pm

    John Goss

    Yes on work – some of my wife’s relatives were also sent there against their will.

  137. And what language did you use?

  138. Sorry, RD, what language did you speak in Moldova?

  139. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 3:34 pm

    Mainly English and a bit of Russian – but only because my Romanian/Moldovan (and the locals will insist there is a difference) is non existent. Yes in the old Soviet days – the local bosses were all Russian and the locals were forced to learn Russian – but I think you will find things have moved on from the old colonial days.

  140. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 3:40 pm

    BTW; Squonk, an astute observer, watched the entire live-feed. He saw the police standing inert while the victims sought refuge in the building subsequently and intentionally set ablaze.

  141. I had heard that Raisa Gorbachova was a Tartar and that it was she who had persuaded her husband to allow for a partial return of the Tartars to Crimea, but looking for confirmation of this online I found a Guardian obituary that suggested that it was her critics who had described her as Tartar – was she, and if so did she express a Tartar identity?

  142. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 3:42 pm

  143. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 3:45 pm

    Hat Tip to Sofia for the link. The People know what’s going on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=75dlup0WXGY#t=0

  144. lucydiclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 3:49 pm

    “Putin’s campaign of controlling the urban centres appears to have gone wrong in Odessa, which is simply too large for the numbers of available young men armed with baseball bats to take control. The pro-Russians were badly beaten in precisely the same street fighting they had been winning elsewhere. The culmination of this was the terrible fire and deaths. My expectation is there will not be many women, children or old people among the dead, but also there will not be many non-Ukrainian nationals. I expect these will prove to have been local Russian young men.”

    Recognized identities of the victims of Odessa fire

    1. Biryukov Andrey, 1978 – G.S.W.
    2. Brozhevskiy Andrey, 1987 – fall from the high floor
    3. Bulakh Victor, 1956 – fall from the high floor
    4. Varenikina Anna, 1955 – choke on smoke
    5. Egorskiy Nikolay, 1976 – G.S.W.
    6. Zhylkov Aleksandr, 1968 – G.S.W.
    7. Ivanov Igor, 1987 – G.S.W.
    8. Kalin Anatoliy, 1976 – fall from the high floor
    9. Markin Vyacheslav, 1969 – deputy of the Regional Council, succumb to injuries in hospital
    10. Mishin Sergey, 1986 – died by fire
    11. Negaturov Vadim, 1959- Odessa poet, died by fire
    12. Nikitenko Maksim, 1982 – fall from the high floor
    13. Petrov Gennadiy, 1985 – G.S.W.
    14. Sadovnichiy Aleksandr, 1954 – died by fire

  145. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 3:51 pm

    Lucy; Brutal images of the guys who jumped to get out of the fire being stomped after the fall, according to Squonk.

  146. YouKnowMyName

    4 May, 2014 - 4:00 pm

    A historical – not hysterical – analysis of Crimea a decade ago puts ‘that corner of a foreign field that is forever Russia’ in context.
    [RFE/RL] no longer overtly CIA, has an interesting 5-part article on the ethnic/Russian situation in Crimea

    A typical hysterical news item of the moment claims that the FBI & CIA are overtly assisting Kiev – but its in German

    Meanwhile FBI.gov doesn’t specifically include maintenance of a perceived failing neo-con coup-d’etat located 4873 miles east of Washington as one of its key-roles, but presumably they have a different opinion on this!

  147. lucydiclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 4:03 pm

    Ben The G S W after the names indicates the victims were hacked to death after they leaped from the buildings .

  148. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 4:05 pm

  149. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 4:06 pm

    Dreoilin; Obama is nothing, if not self-deprecatory in his humor. It seems to play into his hands.

  150. When I lived in Romania you could tell the market traders who came from Moldova because they all spoke Russian to one another. I gave one of them a copy of Bunin’s “хорошая жизнь” (The Good Life) because it is a short story about a woman who opened a shop. She told me later how much she had enjoyed it.

    There is also an area in Bucharest called Bassarabia, not far from Gare de Nord, which it would seem takes its name from that region of Moldova with the same name. Now in Romania the older generation were taught Russian but after Ceausescu nobody, or very few, learnt it. That was how it was easy to tell the difference between Romanians and Moldovans. Today, I think you will find that Russian is still widely spoken in Moldova.

  151. Lucy:

    I’m pretty sure G.S.W. stands for gun shot wound. Where is that list sourced from btw?

  152. Forget history. I firmly believe Russian or NATO tanks will not roll into Ukraine. The Ukraine Putsch was more about the West gaining control in Syria as I suggested in an earlier post and now witnessed in a cavalier antiseptic piece by Anne-Marie Slaughter:

    http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/anne-marie-slaughter-on-how-us-intervention-in-the-syrian-civil-war-would-alter-vladimir-putin-s-calculus-in-ukraine

    The best way forward is to admonish and burn into the memories of so many main stream exceptionalist, group thinking ‘zombies’ the recent history of Iraq.

    Those who forget or fail to grasp the U.S. corporate media’s regurgitation of the manifold and manifestly deceitful justifications for U.S. actions abroad.

    Let these brain-washed empty suits visit Fallujah, a town in dispensable Iraq. Let them witness the increases in the incidence of cancer, especially childhood leukemia, as well as a broad spectrum of birth defects like congenital heart disease, spina bifida and hydrocephalus.

    “Putin bad; Putin very bad. Shame on him; he sometimes has no shirt on, even on a horse. Bad, bad Putin.”

  153. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 4:41 pm

    Mark; It’s amazing to me how few see the connection between Sevastapol and Tartus.

  154. lucydiclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 4:44 pm

    I think its via Andre Fomine at Oriental Review you can find him on facebook

  155. lucydiclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 4:50 pm

    Cheeba Its from the South Front page on facebook prepare yourself for some gruesome pics

  156. WHAT DOES THE US WANT IN UKRAINE – PEACE OR WAR?
    “It is the function of the CIA to keep the world unstable, and to propagandize and teach the American people to hate, so we will let the Establishment spend any amount of money on arms.”– John Stockwell, former CIA official and author
    Note: John Stockwell was station chief in Southern Africa at the time the Cubans sent troops to help liberate South Africa and destroy the Apartheid system – so he should know what he is talking about.
    At present Zbigniew Brzezinski in his recent article “What Obama Should Tell Americans About Ukraine”says, inter alia, this about the Ukraine crisis:-
    “Obama should convey clearly to Russian President Vladimir Putin that the United States is prepared to use its influence to ensure that a truly independent and territorially undivided Ukraine pursues policies toward Russia similar to those so effectively practiced by Finland: mutually respectful neighbors, wide-ranging economic relations both with Russia and the European Union, but no participation in any military alliance viewed by Moscow as directed at itself – while also expanding its European connectivity. The Finnish model may be the ideal example for Ukraine, the EU and Russia.”
    Brzezinski ostensibly does not want a situation to escalate with Russia to the point where there is another Cuban Missile crisis situation. However he fails to ask himself some simple and logical questions by parity of reasoning:-
    1. Would the US tolerate missiles being placed on its backdoor in Mexico – or – again in Cuba? This is the parallel situation where if Ukraine becomes a NATO member – then the Ukraine is thereby committed to potential belligerent support of NATO – or – might take offensive action against Russia – backed by NATO?
    2. When a man like Henry Kissinger – or – Zbigniew Brzezinski uses the phrase, “ a threat to the international system” – are they not really saying “ a threat to a banking system raping the world and steadily falling into disfavor with Americans who are out of a job” – or – “a threat to the power balance where the US and Israel dominate and a group of bankers dictate to the lesser mortals around the world”?
    3. When a man like Brzezinski in his article ( quoted above) states further, “”Above all the president must clarify why we cannot tolerate an international system in which countries are invaded by thugs and destabilized from abroad” …
    Was/is it not the US which had fabricated the facts to fit the war in Iraq; is at war in Afghanistan; is busy destabilizing Venezuela; supports a proxy war in Syria; destroyed Libya; and – since the first successful CIA led coup in Iran – has been time and time again interfering in or destroying countries futures in places such as the Philippines, Chile and on and on and on. Just beautiful! So with that kind of track record – what is the true motive of the US in Ukraine?
    Are we all brain dead – or- is the US position on Ukraine likely to be any different than what has transpired before? And here is the same Brzezinski who supported the Mujahidin ( which morphed into the Taliban):-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaiJtLrEwVU
    Remember – as Brzezinski reminds us – it is “ a deep belief in God” that keeps these wasteful and wicked wars going.
    What a way to run a peaceful world!
    Idiotic warmongers!
    CB
    Footnote: Published here in Sweden: http://parnassen.wordpress.com/2014/05/04/peace-or-war-what-does-the-us-want-in-ukraine-brzezinski-har-svaret/#comments
    PS. And this is a fairly level headed and accurate analysis of the Ukrainian crisis worth listening to, if a better understanding is desired:-
    http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-871-geneva-business-insider-with-david-smith/

  157. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 4:54 pm

    “Today, I think you will find that Russian is still widely spoken in Moldova.”

    That is not the same as saying it is spoken more than Moldovan or that Moldova is strongly pro Russian – as you know all too well.

    If you were such an expert then you should be able to provide definitive and current answers to my questions.

  158. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 May, 2014 - 4:57 pm

    Mary

    “Ref http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/05/world-domination/#comment-455925

    Has the thought occurred that Obama might – might just – have been LAUGHING IN OUR FACES?????”
    _______________________

    Well, that thought obviously occurred to you, which is why you posted your original comment.

    And the thought that occurred to me was that Obama may have been making a joke at his own expense.

    You see, Mary, some people – I don’t count you among them of course – have a sense of humour.

    And now get back into that jar of pickling vinegar! :)

  159. Lucy; Brutal images of the guys who jumped to get out of the fire being stomped after the fall, according to Squonk.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbeUmpQ_4nU

  160. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 5:03 pm

    Mary has a refined sense of humor which doesn’t include laughing about Obama’s disingenous operations. Others laugh at n***** jokes displaying their misanthropic bona fides.

  161. Look closely especially at 5-7 seconds in – left side.

  162. the Lemniscat
    ‏@theLemniscat

    #WTF?
    Israeli citizen Kolomoisky, coup-Gov of Dnipropetrovsk sets a bounty for hunting “separatists” #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/hK2G5RQ6IS

  163. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 5:14 pm

  164. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 May, 2014 - 5:15 pm

    “If you were such an expert then you should be able to provide definitive and current answers to my questions.”
    _________________

    The real answer, Resident Dissident, is that John Goss – truly the Insolent Squatter – has no expertise at all in matters Eastern European or Russian. Apart, of course, from some knowledge of the language, a good indoctrination in Marxist thought and (possibly) a couple of cycling tours in the region.

    What he does have, however, is an unerring ability to get his facts wrong, to swallow everything put out by RT (for example), to produce red herrings, straw men and ad hominems and to divert as soon as he has his back against the wall in any discussion. He is, in essence, a bad (and sad) case of the phenomenon George Orwell so cleverly identified as “transferred nationalism”. He is simply incorrigible (in the true sense of that word).

    Hope that helps!

  165. lucydiclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 5:15 pm

    Squonk Yes I can see it its very clear what is happening in that video

  166. I’ll try and make that clickable

    pic.twitter.com/hK2G5RQ6IS

  167. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 May, 2014 - 5:26 pm

    Have just spotted this one from Mr Goss:

    “Odessa is not far from Moldova, which is strongly pro-Russian, and may even cede to Russia before too long.”
    __________________________

    Yes, which is presumably why Moldova (with strong support from Romania) has ambitions to move closer to and eventually join the European Union?

    The man really is a mendacious fool.

  168. “If you were such an expert then you should be able to provide definitive and current answers to my questions.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/the-apartheid-israel-poison-is-out/#comment-455947

  169. RD, since they are your questions, and you obviously have answers to them, why don’t you share them. I did not ask you:

    “How can you tell the difference between Moldovan and Romanian market traders in Romania”. I gave you the reason. Perhaps you would like to do the same.

    As to speaking Russian in Moldova all my Moldovan friends do. They also speak Romanian. I think you will find more speaking Romanian towards the Romanian border, more speaking Russian towards the Ukrainian border.

    Hope this helps.

  170. I’ve just turned Habbabreak on. I wonder why people take a break from this twat from time to time.

  171. Channel 4 News in 30 minutes.

    https://twitter.com/lindseyhilsum

    Lindsey Hilsum ‏@lindseyhilsum 10m

    Reporting from @Donetsk @channel4news tonight including extraordinary scenes shot in #Odessa. Early time: 6.30pm

  172. What a magic piece of software. Thank you Afrend.

  173. lucydiclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 6:11 pm

    What proportion of the population of Moldova is Russian?
    What are the other 73% of Chisinau?
    Why is it now Chisinau rather than Chisinov?
    What is the main language in Moldova?
    To what other European language is it closely related?
    Which members of the United Nations recognise Transdnistria as a separate state (Mr Goss obviously does – probably as it is the last Stalinist enclave within Europe and therefore a good thing in the eyes of himself and Putin) ?
    How does having 27% of the population in the capital equate to the entire country being strongly pro Russian?
    To which country does Moldova always give 12 points in Eurovision?
    Is the US hiding the Malaysian Airlines plane in the Rezina limestone quarry?

    1 Depends whether you include Transnistria or not.Theres quite a lot of Ukranians ,a
    large Roma population and a few Bulgarian villages.There is also Gaugaziz which is semi autonomous Gaugazians are a Turkic people.
    2 Id imagine your looking for Romanian as an answer they might call themselves Moldovans .People mix in cities not everyone is narrow minded .
    3 Looks like a change from the Russian to the Moldavian spelling.
    4 Moldavian ….artificial language to manufacture a Moldavian identity during Moldavianisation its Romanian essentially .
    5 see above
    6 Smirnoffs gone the new administration which includes the gorgeous Nina Shtanski is not Stalinist.”Its not communist its in-between” source Moldavian peasant from a Ukranian speaking village founded by Cossacks .
    Transnistria is recognised by South Ossetia and Nagorno Karabash if it had a US base rather than a Soviet one it would be recognised by USA,Israel and Palau within minutes the rest to follow.It was never part of Romania which would have a better claim to Bessarabia.Moldavia had an elected communist government I take it you prefer the Iron Guard?
    7 It doesn’t though Gagauzia likewise would like to trade with Russia and people are frightened of a revived fascism.
    8 Dont know 1/100 Romania,100/1 bar
    9 Definitely

  174. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 6:15 pm

    “How can you tell the difference between Moldovan and Romanian market traders in Romania”. I gave you the reason. Perhaps you would like to do the same.

    Perhaps you couldn’t tell the difference between the market traders speaking Moldovan and those speaking Romanian as the two tongues are pretty similar, but not identical as most Moldovans will tell you.

    I think I will leave you to answer my questions – I would like to give you the benefit of realising and correcting your original error. To say that a whole country wishes to cede to Russia based upon your market trader anectdote from many years ago when Moldova was part of the Soviet Empire and you were providing financial support to the egregious Ceausecu really doesn’t constitute evidence of even the most basic kind.

  175. Courtney, thanks for that lawyer’s analysis, which is difficult to argue against.

    AlcAnon/Squonk, thanks for the forthcoming Lindsey Hilsum report at 6.30 p.m. reporting from Donetsk on Channel 4. With the footage from Odessa there will hopefully be less bias than the BBC which describes the pro-Russians as ‘rebels’ despite the good guys being an unelected government.

  176. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 6:19 pm

    “Moldavia had an elected communist government I take it you prefer the Iron Guard?”

    Don’t be stupid – and would you care to speculate what its stance would be on ceding to Russia?

  177. “Perhaps you couldn’t tell the difference between the market traders speaking Moldovan and those speaking Romanian as the two tongues are pretty similar, but not identical as most Moldovans will tell you.”

    You’re wrong again. The only difference is guttural inflection and a few odd words which might even be described as an accent, like Geordie for example.

  178. lucydiclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 6:24 pm

    I dont think Moldova wishes to cede to Russia Transnistria is another matter.

  179. John,

    You shy away like this:-

    ” Courtney, thanks for that lawyer’s analysis, which is difficult to argue against.”

    And I have read you against some quite belligerent and/or aggressive opponents.

    A “debate mouse” like me should be quite easy prey for you – surely.

    Smile.

    CB

    PS. But, don’t punch too hard – I am slim built ( ha…ha.. – just teasing).

  180. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 6:35 pm

    “The real answer, Resident Dissident, is that John Goss – truly the Insolent Squatter – has no expertise at all in matters Eastern European or Russian. Apart, of course, from some knowledge of the language, a good indoctrination in Marxist thought and (possibly) a couple of cycling tours in the region.”

    I really would question the indoctrination in Marxist thought given his undying support for all things Putin. Perhaps John might wish to explain how Putin and his oligarch friends do not constitute a rentier class exploiting the vast mass of the Russian population.

  181. Paul

    “many of the Neo-Nazis west of the Dnieper”. What oercentage of the population West of the Dnieper are you characterizing as Nazi?

  182. CB, that really made me smile. Thanks. There is so little humour, and to be honest, not much to laugh at these days, but thanks to you, and Sofia, we can suffer the trolling with a few smiles and the odd belly laugh.

  183. My comment earlier. Perhaps Habbabkuk could tell us which country he posts from that is one hour ahead of BST?

    ‘Habbabkuk seems to be in a time zone that is different to the UK’s?? He says he posted a comment to Technicolour at 13.25hrs on the apartheid thread. It actually went up at 12.25hrs BST.

    ???

    Answer please. Germany? France? Poland?

  184. Alacanon,

    I don’t know what that video shows. 5 seconds in there is a guy on the far left brutally attacking somebody on the floor. Whether that person on the floor jumped from the building, or whether he is on the floor because of the brutal attack, we cannot know. Who the person on the floor is, or who the attacker is, we don’t know. There are other people on the floor to his right.

    Then there is a cut for at least several seconds, as the man in black who was attacking has either gone or substantially changed position (the figures are blurred). Several people fall from the building. Nobody attacks any of them. At the end on the far right, one of them manages to get up and run away with nobody in shot making any move to stop him.

    While the people are jumping, nobody seems either to be attacking them – or to help them. It is not plain what the attitude of most of the people there is. Whether the tape is edited, or someone kept switching record on or off, is not plain.

    Your description makes the assumption that the guy who was on the floor being hit was one of those who had jumped. That is certainly possible, but it is far from the only possibility. The video does not actually show anybody jumping and then being attacked. In fact, it shows several people jumping and not being attacked.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbeUmpQ_4nU

  185. I am deleting comments that simply post links to diatribes by one side or the other – be they Brzezinski or some equally odious Prof from Moscow University.

  186. Lucythediclonius

    On that limited sample of victims my surmise was right. 93% male and no children. I have been on scores of political demonstrations, but never a 93% male one.

  187. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 7:13 pm

    Fine. Delete away. One point though; who is Paul?

  188. So let us say this goes the western US/UK/EU/NATO way, discounting (always a mistake) Russia entirely. It seems to me the largely agricultural western Ukraine is being gifted to Germany/the EU thus effectively, generously compensating Germany primarily for the loss of largely agricultural East Prussia, and part of present day western Poland: Germany’s former breadbasket, without which the difficulties in feeding Germany’s distressed people’s after the western-elite created and backed Hitler had wrought his worst, became acute and the country as so structured could never be anything other than a dependant dollar demoninated ‘world war two’ theme park. If the Kiev fascist’s putsch stands then much more will unravel, for a long time fascist elements in Poland have eyed those parts of Belarus which were formely part of the artificial re-created Polish state which existed between Versailles and the 1939 German occupation of Poland, Poland’s own fascist elements there had already unbidden, perhaps to ingratiate themselves with their Nazi idols, passed in 1938 discriminatory anti-semitic laws comparable to Germany’s own. I wish I could see a third option for Ukraine, a middle course between Moscow and Washington/Berlin centred subjugation and ruin, plus the depredations of ‘local’ oligarchs, tethered to no-land, and to nothing but their sense of entitlement to engorge themselves on whatever they choose, but realise this was exactly the line pursued by the Yanukovych government from which the people and country inevitably endured economic hardship, straddling a difficult line and whom the United State’s new pet nazis brutally toppled, the least worst option for all of Ukraine’s people then is the one the US just gleefully discarded. Neither Russia’s oligarchs nor its people will submit to death by a thousand pricks of US-inspired flea-bites from ultra-violent ultra-nazi anti-Russian hireling murderers.

    I can only presume from this the US and the UK will not stop fomenting war until devastating crushing total war has been visited upon their own people and nations and in that process the whole planet inevitably destroyed. The habitabilty of this fragile earth – this unstable vulnerable purely chance biosphere which is our highly-convoluted life-support system – and therefore continued human existence is already extremely doubtful due to our many nuclear follies, climate change though real is not even the same order of magnitude threat to our entire species. Shute’s ‘On the Beach’ scenario of a southern hemisphere unaffected by radiation, risibly unfounded, as no place on earth can offer even temporary respite, however deep the deep-state might dig themselves.

    By the time you read this comment, the situation will have become worse.

  189. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 7:24 pm

    “You’re wrong again. The only difference is guttural inflection and a few odd words which might even be described as an accent, like Geordie for example.”

    So you were able to tell that the Romanian traders were not in fact Moldovans speaking “Romanian”, merely on the basis of their accent.

    We still have to see your evidence for your original statement that Moldova is pro Russian and may cede to Russia.

  190. Resident Dissident

    4 May, 2014 - 7:28 pm

    “I wish I could see a third option for Ukraine, a middle course between Moscow and Washington/Berlin centred subjugation and ruin, plus the depredations of ‘local’ oligarchs, tethered to no-land, and to nothing but their sense of entitlement to engorge themselves on whatever they choose, but realise this was exactly the line pursued by the Yanukovych government”

    If you believe that the Yanukovych government was seeking to avoid the depredations of local oligarchs you really are living in a fantasy word – just what proportion of government contracts were being awarded to his son?

  191. Craig,
    That was just one clip I found that someone has posted. I was watching the whole thing live and there were a number of scenes of the wounded being attacked after the fire brigade rescued them.

    By the way in today’s live streams, much of the crowd who descended on the Odessa police station were elderly ladies with umbrellas, in the pouring rain, demanding the release of their relatives. The news coverage on BBC and Channel 4 of course focused on the few aggressive elements at the front but they couldn’t quite get all the umbrellas out of shot in the Channel 4 footage. You see the tops of the umbrellas but we weren’t shown the old ladies underneath them.

    In case you think I only see nice old ladies on the Russian side, the pro-Russian crowd in Donetsk today most certainly does not consist mainly of old ladies and there could be a lot more trouble coming in Donetsk if things can’t be calmed down.

    In general the live streams have been very patchy today. Dropping out more often than they are up.

  192. lucythediclonius

    4 May, 2014 - 7:32 pm

    Craig you originally said young men and an earlier quote referred to baseball bats.I do have photographs of a pregnant woman killed in the fire which I can’t verify .It was a tent city which was originally attacked if there was any foreknowledge of the fascists being bussed in I don’t think many people would bring their children.

  193. Craig,

    Hope with this:-
    ” I am deleting comments that simply post links to diatribes by one side or the other – be they Brzezinski or some equally odious Prof from Moscow University.”
    That I did not stoke your ire.
    Indeed I mentioned Brzezinski and quoted from what he has recently prescribed. But, I did proceed in a logical way to denounce not only his hypocrisy, but his truly less than credible approach to issues of global governance.
    I do not hold any exalted position. I am merely a global citizen who fully understands that the present situation in Ukraine can easily spiral out of control and then strong and determined powers may then be staring each other down the barrels of guns – or even worse yet – be on the opposite sides of nuclear missiles threatening their use. More likely, Ukraine and its population becomes the pawn in a totally unnecessary proxy civil war.
    How do we bring some sanity to the international bargaining table – or is it all just Western and Eastern oligarchs and a corrupt banking system running the world?
    Assuming now – that nothing I have said on this blog makes me any time soon – a candidate for excommunication.
    CB

  194. Courtenay,

    No, it your comment wasn’t a problem. Referencing and quoting in argument is fine. I deleted a couple of comments which weren’t anything except links to other places, one of them Brzezinski.

    Alconon

    Thanks for the clarification. That’s pretty appalling, the attack on ambulances. Certainly there are plenty of mixed groups on both sides. But both sides also have attack forces that are a very different kind of thing. I really don’t know what happened at the trades union building, but the profile of the dead would give us a clue. We wait to learn more. Also I am not entirely sure what the status of the building was just before, and if entirely random people might have been visiting it.

    Obviously the loss of life , any life, is tragic. But if you are using violence as a tactic (as it is beyond denial pro-Russian forces are) then you can’t really claim to be horrified if you get hurt. Same goes for the other side too. In my mind, it makes a huge difference if this was a bunch of men acting violently, or a mixed group from a peaceful camp. I say that while genuinely not knowing which it is.

  195. Lucythediclonius

    Young is relative. They are younger than me, and I don’t consider myself physically unable! The Ukrainian side are claiming that the majority were Russian citizens or Transnistrians brought in to cause trouble. It would be a bold claim to make if they are lying, as obviously the bodies will be identified.

  196. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    4 May, 2014 - 8:19 pm

    Thanks AA.

    Why didn’t take Russian instead of Spanish?

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