The Absence of Liberalism

by craig on July 11, 2014 3:17 pm in Uncategorized

The overruling of a European Court judgement to assert individual privacy, and the anti-democratic rushing of emergency legislation through parliament where no emergency exists, are the antithesis of liberalism. So of course is the jettisoning of all the Lib Dem manifesto pledges on civil liberties.

It is not news that Nick Clegg has become the poster boy for a politics utterly devoid of principle, organised purely around the desire of individual politicians for wealth and power. But even with all that background, I found Clegg’s enthusiastic ratcheting up of the fear factor over the “need” to protect us from virtually non-existent threats, utterly reprehensible.

At his press conference with Cameron, Clegg actually quoted the non-existent “liquid bomb plot to bring down multiple planes” as the reason these powers were needed. He even made a direct claim that telephone intercepts had been instrumental in “foiling” the “liquid bomb plot”. That is utterly untrue. The three men eventually convicted had indeed been under judge approved surveillance for a year. In that year, they made no reference to a plan to bring down airplanes, because there was no such plan. The only “evidence” of a plan to bring down multiple airplanes came from a Pakistani torture chamber. There never was a single liquid bomb. 90% of those arrested in the investigation were released without charge or found not guilty.

The three found guilty had done little more than boast and fantasise about being jihadis. That is not to say they were nice people. They may even have done some harm, though if Clegg were in any sense a Liberal he would not be supportive of imprisoning people in case they one day do some harm. But they had never made a liquid bomb or made a plan to bring down multiple airlines.

The point is, that while any ordinary member of the public could be forgiven for believing in the Liquid Bomb Plot, given all the lies of the mainstream media, Clegg has to be aware that he is spreading deliberate lies and propaganda to justify this “emergency legislation”.

Still more ludicrous was the failure to address the elephant in the room – Snowden’s revelation that the NSA and GCHQ indulge in vast mass surveillance, of the communications of millions of people in the UK, with absolutely no regard for the legal framework anyway.

In the last few weeks there has been a concerted effort to ratchet up the fear of the extremely remote possibility of a terrorist attack. We have seen, as first lead on the news bulletins and front page headlines, the jailing of two young men for “terrorism” for fighting in Syria, when there was no evidence of any kind that they had any intention of committing any violence in the UK. We have the absolute nonsense of the mobile phone in airports charade. We had days of the ludicrous argument that ISIS success in Iraq will cause terrorist attacks in the UK. Now we have the urgent need for this “emergency legislation”.

Why is the fear ratchet being screwed right up just now? What is this leading up to?

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327 Comments

  1. Seems that our masters have screwed up royally aboard and at home, and they are becoming afraid of the fallout.

  2. The absence of liberalism aka the presence of fascism.

  3. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    11 Jul, 2014 - 3:59 pm

    ” What is this leading up to?”

    It is vital that the status quo experience no Bear markets so that commerce is uninterrupted. The window-dressers want the public to feel safe to continue shopping and traveling.

    But it’s also handy as a cattle-prod nudging us all toward the trending capitulation of our civil rights, in the event of a major attack, as we’ve seen in recent history. It works very well.

    Shoe bombs and underpant ordnance make people laugh, but this guy is quite creative and could have reached an arc of design.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_al-Asiri

    There is a lot of people who think he’s been enabled, encouraged and abetted by certain State players.

  4. The answer to your last two questions: A “state of emergency” called with troops deployed at major airports and tearful explanations from Cameron and other British nationalists that only a “united” kingdom can save us from terrorist cataclysm.

  5. You forgot to mention the water cannon in London…

  6. I was listening to some plummy-voiced suit explaining to Radio 4 that the reason “we” (that ersatz inclusiveness again: you’ll be seeing much more of it) were experiencing a “recovery” from the towering clusterfuck the bankers and hedge funds landed us (no quotes there) in, was that our workforce had become more ” flexible”. Hands up anyone who doesn’t know what that means. Ok, Timmy, I know you sometimes have trouble with these advanced concepts. Think “desperate”.

  7. I couldn’t agree more, Craig, regarding the Emergency Legislation, and I can’t understand why more people aren’t making a fuss. Do we want to be a country with a semblance of democracy or become East Germany?

    It is clear that our MPs no longer represent our interests, as one person said very articulately on Question Time last night, although his answer was cut short.

  8. This could also making people think twice about coming forward as whistleblowers or victims regarding the child abuse in high places inquiry.

  9. Once the IRA threat was gone, London needed to invent a new “existential threat”. Thanks to Israeli Mossad UK got 7/7 and the US 9/11 to depict Muslims as the new threat. The latest threat to British national security came from French comedian Dieudonne M’bala M’bala.

    Long live the Queen of England and Canada.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/02/04/jewish-lobby-bans-dieudonne-from-britain/

  10. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO – could you ever post some objective source than Israeli Hasbara Wikipedia to support your claim?

  11. As a friend rightly pointed out – if it’s OK for the government to attempt to intervene in Syria on the side of the ‘rebels’ then isn’t it slightly duplicitous for private citizens not to be able to make their own minds up?

    Here’s larks – can anyone remember Cameron’s pledge to have a Great Repeal Bill? No, me neither, me neither.

    Cheers Craig

  12. @Rehmat: Perhaps like me you grew up in the UK at a time when we didn’t have an “existential threat”. I thought the anti-Irish legislation in the mid-1970s was over the top, for something that only affected the tiniest minority, and as I remember it, that was “only” 24 hours detention without charge. How things have changed since then!

  13. You have to hand it to them… a 7-Day online shopping outfit just advised me, via email, to buy their “Emergency Powerbank Chargers – avoid your electronics being confiscated!”

  14. @Glenn: Just think how well surveillance cameras manufacturers have done out of this in the last 10 years.

  15. Keith Crosby

    11 Jul, 2014 - 4:27 pm

    It’s not the absence of liberalism, it’s the essence. When liberalism, the ideology of the boss class, ceases to protect their privileges, it mutates into Stalinism and fascism, the bastard C20th and C21st children of John Stuart Mill (“… of his own free will, paid for by millions of dead Africans, Asians and Irish….”)

  16. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    11 Jul, 2014 - 4:28 pm

    “could you ever post some objective source than Israeli Hasbara Wikipedia to support your claim?”

    I’m using the link for general info on the man. What information do you object to, or is it just the source? It had nothing to do with my ‘claim’.

  17. I’ve just been informed via tannoy that anything I leave unattended could be destroyed by the security services. And we’ve been putting up with this for years now. Is it going to be worse than East Germany?

  18. “What is this leading up to?”

    I guess we’ll find out soon enough. The legislation expires in 2016.

    If it’s as reasonable as is being made out by all main parties then there#s no good reason for railroading the legislation through without proper scrutiny and debate. That’s precisely what happened with the Patriot Act in the US.

    There may be some small, innocuously-worded provision in there that is actually very nasty and we’re not allowed to know what it is until it has become law.

  19. Very early after this was announced I posted a comment that occurred to me. To the effect that this happened just after the paedos in parliament ordure began to hit the fan. I still think this is a key part of it. Dan Huil 4.00 p.m. is very interesting indeed.

  20. A dissapointing politician? How surprising.

    Clegg’s recent betrayals are nothing new and but peanuts compared to others before. One hundred years ago the party was split as grass root members denounced Asquith and Churchill for embracing WW1. We all know how that turned out.

    Of course Craig’s latest favourite party, the Green Party, is just another compromise and corruption machine.

    The party system is fundamentally flawed to be hijacked by those pursuing wealth and power. Rare individuals who resist temptation are marginalised or compromised. Maybe you’ve noticed.

    No more endless disappointment! No more Groundhog Day Lala Land! Social democrats, abandon your faith, embrace the revolutionary bubbling underneath! Radical decentralisation now!

  21. If Craig, and a few others, think this is the sort of thing that won’t happen in an independent Scotland, Kenny MaCaskill’s words on the matter bear repeating-

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/wider-political-news/snp-attacks-lack-of-consultation-on-emergency-data-retention-law.24727624?utm_source=www.heraldscotland.com&utm_medium=RSS%20Feed&utm_campaign=Scottish%20Political%20News

    A rough translation -
    1. Why did youse feckers not keep me in in the loop on this ?
    2. No matter, when we’re running our own show we’ll legislate for something very similar.

    It’ll be interesting to see how the SNP, and the other ‘minor parties’, vote on this at Westminster. Caroline Lucas from the Greens will almost certainly vote against, but will the others ?

  22. Weekend Edition July 11-13, 2014

    The Return of George Orwell and Big Brother’s War
    On Israel, Ukraine and Truth
    by JOHN PILGER

    The other night, I saw George Orwells’s 1984 performed on the London stage. Although crying out for a contemporary interpretation, Orwell’s warning about the future was presented as a period piece: remote, unthreatening, almost reassuring. It was as if Edward Snowden had revealed nothing, Big Brother was not now a digital eavesdropper and Orwell himself had never said, “To be corrupted by totalitarianism, one does not have to live in a totalitarian country.”

    /..
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/11/on-israel-ukraine-and-truth/

  23. “Still more ludicrous was the failure to address the elephant in the room – Snowden’s revelation that the NSA and GCHQ indulge in vast mass surveillance, of the communications of millions of people in the UK, with absolutely no regard for the legal framework anyway.”

    This is what it’s really about. Our special relationship with the power that, via the UK and other country members of the 5 eyes, are spying on everybody including their own citizens. Germany, the leading power in Europe, wants out of this having discovered that it is one of the main targets, and is acrrying other countries with it (excepting the UK). And following NATO’s sponsored war in Ukraine which is not all that far from Germany, coupled with what everybody has seen NATO do in the Middle East, there are justified fears that the US intentions are to create a world of failed states because of its own wanked-out economy. Wake up world!

    As to the dissenters who said that to hold a referendum in Eastern Ukraine in weeks, are pretty quiet over this undemocratic porcess in our own country. Last night Hazel Blears was on Channel 4 News defending this rushed-through law. Of course she supported the war in Iraq too. It demonstrates that we have no main party in parliament that represents civil libertiies any more. The state of my country has become a disgrace.

  24. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    11 Jul, 2014 - 6:08 pm

    ” One of my aims in doing so was to ensure that there was a radical left faction in the party constantly pushing it in a progressive direction ”

    I sense that ‘progressives’ over there are similar to those here, Phil.

    They are jacked-in to the veracity of the system and want to change the direction mainly for voter reform and ethnocentric issues without a perspective on global issues. Maybe I should say they are less focused on World matters because the local issues seem more controllable. Am I giving them too much credit?

  25. The court ruling was delivered that the EU directive for snooping on its citizens is invalid/illegal/prohibited in April. However the emergency “measures” are now being enacted and as Tom Watson put it; “its a stitch up”, further elaborating “all three parties have in secret come to an agreement to pass these emergency laws”.

    The draconian snooping and monitoring is now made legal to allay the fears of the Internet/Telecom service providers that are keeping every transaction record of every customer and handing it over to the SIS.

    The legal powers to snoop circumvent any probable or penitential law suit brought against these snooping corporates. Fact that the number of snooper corporations are around 784 (included the privatised Post Office) is the reason for such a bums rush to pass the emergency laws.

    The fear and loathing volumetric have been turned up a few notches in the due course and all the air passengers are to be frisked, groped, Xrayed, and their phone and laptops confiscated (there is a down turn in iwotsit market and there is a need for better sales figures) as well as the latest capture and charging of an arch tayrrorist Abdul Rahman Benhammedi

    … appeared at Westminster Magistrates’ Court accused of possession of an article for a purpose connected with terrorism.

    The charge relates to a USB memory stick containing sniper training manuals, the court heard.

    Although for some reason the medjia has been pretty much staying away, and the story does not seem to get much traction.

  26. Craig, the government’s spokesfolk waffled last night about controls being put in place with regard to government spying.

    I do not know if the mosque does its own spying on the non=you/apne Muslims or whether they get their spydata from the police/local intelligence network, but in either case what I say to my wife in private in my own house is somehow relayed to them.

    I can understand how as newcomers to a society whose ancestors persecuted them it must give them a bit of adrenolin to be able to watch the shortcomings of us new Muslims either through the UK intelligence network or through their own IT knowledge.

    Fact is, there is no restraint on anyone who does not fear Allah, who has made spying Haram, or a worldly power that will physically restrain them. Am I saying that the Muslims only understand force? Yes, but they want to be on the side of force, not the receiving end.

    The punishment mentioned in the Qur’an for those who have the knowledge of the truth of Islam, but who do not follow the good example of Islam, nor do they teach those who have never seen Islam that good example is Double Punishment.

    And it is also mentioned in the Qur’an that those who will be in the worst situation on the Day of Judgement is those knowledgeable people who thought they were on guidance, but who oppressed the people secretly and openly, thinking that they were immune from observation by Allah and from His punishment.

    If the Muslims are doing it, and the Corporate business are definitely doing it, I am convinced that all rungs of government are definitiely utilising the information gathered from spying to nefarious and illegal ends.

  27. Craig,

    You are rising in my expectations. I just wish you would “come out” about 9/11. I do realise the risks to you if you did, and why so few people have. Whilst “Liberalism” may be dead so far as The Psychopaths who think they are in control of us are concerned, whilst they bomb themselves…or rather bomb millions of innocent people around the world in our name…in every way conceivable…the concept of liberalism and basic human “Christian Charity” for want of a better word…as strange as that may seem…is alive and well, and demonstrably so at the personal level. The vast majority of people do their best to completely ignore these horrible people in power. I can understand why. Apologies etc…

    I wish you well.

    Tony

  28. The apparatus of government spying is available to all schools and all major employers and employment agencies, to any of those custodes who have no custodes over them. Those who utilise spying have no faith, because it is forbidden, so it follows that they have no faith to prevent them from the temptations of abusing the power of spying. People of faith do not indulge in this particularly dirty sin.

  29. Court Jouster

    11 Jul, 2014 - 6:44 pm

    ”What is this leading up to?” Why at this moment?

    It can only mean one thing, the “YES” vote is winning, they have to find a way to void the September date with a view to keeping it in permanent deep freeze.

    But how? CMs court jesters from the false flag fraternity are keeping their heads well below the parapet, no clue there then?

  30. Any sign of tighter or more heavy-handed “security” on Scotland – rest-of-UK flights in particular?

  31. Guano,

    I am kind of with you, except that I don’t do religion. I do however respect anyone who does do religion, providing religion is done in its purest original form, which is one of love, rather than control. As strange as this may seem (I gave up my Catholic religion at the age of 15 on moral grounds), I do believe in the power of prayer (I also love the most blessed Music of The Muslim Call to Prayer – it is just as good – and strangely very similar to Gregorian Chant)…

    So can I ask you to pray for someone I haven’t seen for 34 years, and have had almost no contact with in all this time. I am blessed with a wonderful wife and family. So is she. She was very nearly my wife, but something happened to pull us apart. We had never betrayed each other, and I have never betrayed my wife. I have told my wife that we got in contact again via Facebook. I have spoken to her once on the telephone. Today she sent me a message. She is not well. Please pray for her to get better. If you understand these things at this level…you do not need to know my name, nor hers…that’s how these things work. Don’t ask me to explain…I have already told her, that lots of people are praying for her, and that she will get better. Yes, she is going through the entire conventional diagnosis and treatment. I insisted…that rather being fobbed off by her doctor to insist on seeing a consultant…and she has. She may not have cancer…the results are not yet in…and even if she has…it may well be curable…with the help of our prayers (well they won’t do any harm).

    Thank You, and God Bless

    Tony

  32. There’a a Liberty campaign to encourage people to write to their MP about this deplorable “emergency” legislation. I sent the following to mine this morning. I have little expectation of more than her immediate automatic reply – but worth at least warning staff who handle constituency correspondence of this impending epidemic of infectious spinelessness. My subject line was:

    “Urgent – please reject the Home Office’s “emergency” legislation”

    “Dear Mrs Jowell

    I write as a constituent, to express deep concern at the Coalition’s declared intention to rush through “emergency” laws compelling phone and internet providers, in flagrant breach of the (mandatory) Court of Justice ruling in April, to collect and retain blanket and indiscriminate records of our personal communications data.

    It would require extraordinary primary legislation for the existing permission of limited phone-tapping and mail interception (carefully circumscribed by judicial authority) to be transformed into a system in which agents of the state were allowed to intercept all UK postal mail and record the dates and frequency of all messages or parcels being sent to all addressees. The same goes for the addresses from which they are sent if that meta-data is on the outside – as I do with all my letters and parcels in order to facilitate their return, unopened, if they prove to be undeliverable. The collection of such postal mega-data would also require a ludicrous and immoral misuse of resources, both sufficient reasons never to contemplate such legislation. Until now The Queen’s subjects have enjoyed security of personal communication, perhaps protected by Her head on UK postage stamps.

    Its being easy to collect and retain such mega-data in the case of electronic communications makes that neither desirable nor any less a misuse of resources. I do not wish legislation passed that will impoverish and endanger civil society, promoting a burgeoning but unproductive economy in which the fastest growth is of numbers in the state and private security sectors, staking out the grounds of every citizen, making the Englishman’s home not his castle but an electronically-paroled prison whose keys jangle from Westminster and Whitehall keyboards.

    The proposed measure offends deeply against a proper sense of ourselves as belonging within and being admired contributors to a European liberal tradition. More particularly, the manner of execution – a spurious emergency, conspiratorially contrived with Labour leadership support, to suppress debate and public accountability – strikes at the fundamental principles of parliamentary democracy and the rule of law at the heart of the British constitution.

    I plead with you, therefore, to resist this deeply disquieting further erosion of our civil liberties and cherished British values.

    I will not vote at the next general election for any political party which has whipped its members to vote in favour of this proposed legislation. However, I will make an exception for individual sitting MPs who defy their party whip in order to vote against this shameful legislation which distrusts ordinary citizens and allows the state to terrorize us and infantilize our institutions.

    Yours sincerely “

  33. Ukraine in turmoil. Poroshenko pledges to kill hundreds for every one of his fascist government’s losses. Very reminiscent of pledges and actions by Israel against Palestinians. Sorry, a bit off topic.

    http://nsnbc.me/2014/07/11/heavy-fighting-in-eastern-ukraine-we-will-kill-hundreds-of-them-for-each-of-ours-poroshenko/

  34. “It can only mean one thing, the “YES” vote is winning”

    Not according to all the opinion polls of the last couple of years. Not much there to cause undue alarm in the City as far as I can tell:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

    Don’t you think this might concern everyone on this island, not just the Scots?

  35. Tony Op

    Everybody will taste death. My sister is looking after a man with cancer and in the course of his latter stages of illness he left his worldly distractions and joined a church. Look how death focuses the mind on the reality of life which was totally inaccessible before.

    Islam goes further, by refining our understanding who to worship to just Allah/God, because it is He who sustains every atom of this planet and every moment of our consciousness. All of that is written in a record.

    People repent before death and all of us have plenty to repent for, but people don’t know where to go. The signposts have all been removed. As Jesus said about the rabbis: Matthew 23:12

    “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.”
    [N.B. Nothing about taking power from government spy agencies here]

    13″But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.…”

    Please direct your friend to the Oneness of Allah, because belief in His Oneness and in his last messenger Muhammad SAW is the key to heaven and Heaven is a reprieve for all who sincerely believe in Him without any partnership with Jesus or Mary or any other thing.
    Amen

  36. Skip the Advertisements if you want…though the Muslim Advertisement is Better Than The Gregorian One. Believe this or not, but I had the idea for what Youtube did a few years later, (3 years before)..and even Registered The Domain Name…but I thought If I do This..Publicising..Live Music…I will Get Sued To Hell. Do I Really want to end up in a Courtroom Facing an American Music? “Executive”.

    I Thought Nah…

    I will go For ANTHONY CHARLES LYNTON BLAIR instead

    I will Face That EVIL in a COURT OF LAW

    Now The Music..Seriously… Both are Really Good

    “Beautiful Islamic Call To Prayer”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe8qRj12OhY

    “Over 1 Hour OF Gorgeous Gregorian Chant -Chillout Megamix”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ElL8hdQD_4

    Tony

  37. Iain
    I am in a holiday field with a dying battery so cannot check but I am fairly certain the automatic systems record and keep all sorts of data about your post and packages. Have done for years enshrined in the grim RIPA laws.

    You write to your MP knowing it makes no difference. You say you will not vote for a complicit party then say you will. Ah the muddle of faith!

    The system is dead! Long live the system!

  38. John Pilger wrote on 13th May that the US is dragging us into war with Russia

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger

    How long can Russia tolerate the destruction of eastern Ukraine?
    Perhaps the citizens of the UK feel detached from events in main land Europe but from my perspective its a stones throw away and it already looks as if allegiances might just be changing in preparation for something…

  39. The American Response

    “Van halen – Ain’t Talkin’ ‘Bout Love”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNWArv4J4J8

    The British Response

    “Motorhead – No Class”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlU715lYMtU

    Tony

  40. @Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    Are you saying that Netanyahu’s anti-Iran, anti-Syria, anti-Hamas, anti-Hizbullah – and anti-Abbas filth is a statement from Talmud?

    Take for example, last month, Netanyahu in his first comment on ISIS victory in Iraq, said that Washington should stay out of the Iraqi conflict – and let the Sunni militants defeat the Shia-dominated government of prime minister al-Maliki and break-up Iraq. “This will weaken Iranian influence in the Arab region,” said Netanyahu during his address at Tel Aviv University’s INSS think-tank.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/06/30/netanyahu-isis-is-good-for-israel/

  41. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 8:40 pm

    Craig

    “What is this leading up to?”
    _________________

    I suppose that this refers to the immediate consequences of what you call the fear ratchet in the previous sentence, but allow me to use it to ask you a more general question.

    Do you share the often-expressed opinion of various commenters on this blog that the UK is either already a “fascist state” or that it is rapidly turning into one?

    ***********************

  42. Phil – you say “You write to your MP knowing it makes no difference. You say you will not vote for a complicit party then say you will. Ah the muddle of faith!”

    Not “no difference”, even if slight. At least my MP’s staff will be logging the messages to her; and I even hope that an FoI request might reveal the number of messages to MPs asking them to vote for or to vote against this shameful legislation.

    Note too that there’s a tight condition attached to my voting for any party complicit in this legislation: that I would only consider doing so if my constituency MP has shown independence of judgement by rebelling against her party whip and voting against the Home Office’s draft “emergency” legislation. Why is that “muddled”?

  43. The Canadians Responded With American Woman – Guess Who…

    So I had retired and thought wtf is going on…and after The London Bombings..and I seriously Fell Out Well ….I Got Banned From The Very Pouplar English Website I had been posting on for Years…

    I wrote

    “All Terrorists are Cunts”

    this was the Headline after The London Bombings…when I thought My Wife Had Been Caught Up with Them…She was in London…when The Birds Went Crazy…as I Was watching it them..I didn’t know what had happened…but the Birds Did…It was The Ripple Effect…The Birds sensed The Evil on 7/7 and passed it on…

    I turned the Radio and The TV on..I tried to contact my wife…

    The Birds Knew – I had Never Seen Anything Like It…

    I Didn’t Hear The Explosions..But The Birds Did…

    “ALL TERRORISTS ARE CUNTS”

    So I thought how do I understand what is going on…

    I was Banned From The UK

    So I logged on To Alternet…In California in the USA..and I was there in their Virtual World..and I made Friends with Sister_Lauren…over the Years…I kept asking her to come over to the UK for a Festival or what..My wife is Really Nice..and we are used to people staying in our home and our tent…

    Then Nick Turse Got Appointed….Yes I know His History Too…and He saw what I had been writing for the previous 5 years…and he just Banned Me..and Deleted 5 Years Worth of what I had been writing from here…in England Trying To Make Friends and Understand Americans….

    “guess who- american woman”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkqfpkTTy2w

    Sister_Lauren Has Almost Single Handedly Changed The Laws in The USA…

    And She is Still Invited To Our Home in The UK

    What a Girl

    Tony

  44. ‘The answer to your last two questions: A “state of emergency” called with troops deployed at major airports and tearful explanations from Cameron and other British nationalists that only a “united” kingdom can save us from terrorist cataclysm.
    Maybe a False Flag at the Commonwealth Games which allows the Government to impose Martial Law and cancel the Ref?

  45. Be nice if the College of Europe were to strike Nick Clegg off their books. After all they are supposed to be supporting human rights and European institutions.

    Fat chance, though, I’m afraid.

  46. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 9:06 pm

    Nice quote from Nevermind on the “water damage” thread, which some of you might have missed:

    “I don’t think that Israel is innocent in the abduction and killing of its own teenagers/soldiers, it was their kind of mini 911 designed to garner publicity to Bibi’s policies,…”

    Anyone here agree with that, or care to comment? :)

    *********************

  47. What they worry about is an attack on them. That’s why they put all those security measures round parliament after 9/11 and did nothing much to protect ordinary people. That’s why during the cold war they had shelters built for them and we didn’t.

    There is absolutely no measure that isn’t too great when its a matter of saving their wretched skins from the small terrorist threat they’ve created. By invading Afghanistan, and Iraq, and supporting Israeli occupation.

    Unfortunately its ordinary people who get targetted as on 7/7 anyway.

  48. John Goss 6.06 post

    You’re completely right.

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 9:15 pm

    And from the one and only Mary, speaking on the Doune the Rabbit Hole thread:

    “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!”

    Sounds like the Hamas “Drive the Jews into the sea”, doesn’t it.

    Agreement with or comments on this, anyone?

  50. Slightly off topic – into the area of Neo-Nazism aka Ukraine which is aided by the Neo-Liberals / Neo-Cons / Neo-Scumbags.

    The Ukrainian military has been using multiple launch rocket systems against civilian targets in various towns such as Slavyansk. The varied nature of the urban terrain makes it difficult to appreciate the full impact of these systems. The Novorossian army has finally found a system of their own and used it as intended against a military target, in this instance the 79th Motorized Brigade. This site shows the effect of MLRS weapons. The 79th Motorized Brigade no longer exists as a functional military unit. This was one strike on one day unlike the day-in, day-out attacks the Ukrainian army perpetrated against civilians.

    There may be up to 400 dead in this strike. An awful way to go for the troops involved. However, they signed up for this, the civilians they targeted didn’t. The MSM are happily residing in das Wolkenkuckucksheim regarding Neo-Nazi Ukraine.

  51. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    11 Jul, 2014 - 9:21 pm

    Liz and Dick are beginning to look like a very strange couple.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/truth-about-iraq_796387.html?nopager=1

    “America must win this war. We won’t defeat our enemies by retreating. We won’t win if we adopt a false narrative about the past, fail to learn the lessons of history, or seek security in disengagement and isolationism. We will only defeat our enemies if we are clear-eyed about the threat and have the will to do what it takes for as long as it takes—until the war is won.”

  52. @Habby:

    I object very strongly to your mocking of views expressed on this blog that relate to freedom of speech, the UN charter of human rights, what our forebears fought for in ww2, and “British”? principles that go back hundreds of years (see below).

    Anyone…

    I’m not a legal expert at all, and need some help here, but I have a faint suspicion that the 1970s onwards anti-terror legislation runs counter to the principles laid down back in 1215. If so, how can a law just get passed by the House of Commons that ignores whether it is compatable with common law? I honestly don’t know, and would like to be enlightened, especially as it is the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta next year…

  53. Iain Orr,
    Is that an open source letter in your comment?

  54. The Irish Explained it to me as it is

    This song often gets played at most of the occasional parties My Wife and I still Have..We ain’t Dead Yet…

    Often The Reaction..I Turn it Up…is Complete Silence as They Listen to The Song..and if it ain’t…I turn it up LOUDER

    “Dead Can Dance – The Wind That Shakes The Barley”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2-2lJnFM1c

    Tony

  55. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    11 Jul, 2014 - 9:31 pm

    “If so, how can a law just get passed by the House of Commons that ignores whether it is compatable with common law? ”

    Peacewisher; If you look at Common Law (US Constitution is based on CL) versus Admiralty Law, you will find they use whichever is more convenient for their purposes. Admiralty Law is more imperious (the Captain’s power) but has no legal foundation in non-maritime issues.

    E.g; Vehicle codes are not Law, but the State is happy to have citizens believe so.

  56. Very close to tears, Tony. I didn’t know the real title. It is said that ladies with haunting voices like that still perform in pubs all over Ireland at the week-ends.

  57. Writing about the latest flap over NSA/CIA spying on Germany, today’s New York Times reported that, after the Snowden revelations last year, Berlin asked the Americans for a “no spy” agreement “similar to the one the United States has with the English-speaking victors of World War II: Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand”.

    Berlin claims that Washington promised to enter into negotiations over such an agreement, according to the NYT.

    “But…American officials say there never was such a promise, and that German officials blanched when they heard what kind of responsibilities they would have for intelligence collection and cyberoperations around the world if they ever joined that elite club”.

  58. YouKnowMyName

    11 Jul, 2014 - 9:44 pm

    technologically speaking,
    The current unwarranted over-collection of citizen correspondence, content, meta-data and general interests puts us all into digital pigeon-holes. Correlated, machine-analysed, Bayesian profiled, the military industrial complex is able to keyword search an entire year’s stored internet use of a whole UK size country, looking for individual keywords, drawing up lists, statistics, victims. There are also many distributed boxes around the world that can make real-time digital signature analysis of live streaming internet, looking for specific “scarfing” triggers, selectors. These boxes exist everywhere, even Malawi, the interception market is booming! The American Navy is being re-trained as cyberwarriors…

    At present, these unwarranted systems are used, at best, in Germany 50% for the spooks & 50% for the police, in UK it’s more like 99% of the product for the spooks as the intel product remains “hearsay” in UK courts. US NSA has obviously been the lead, using FBI as a front-man, inserting their technology into our society since the 1990′s, with back doors, bugdoors in everything, devices, software & infrastructure – if you can think of ten ways they might attack the internet – then their clever engineers have actually already found thirteen ways of abuse!

    Currently, I think the only effect in our society of these UKUSA ‘mastery of the internet’ ideas – is to freeze the evolution of devices, systems & infrastructure – slowing the developments to the next generation of devices. e.g. Microsoft universal messaging which was delayed until the appropriate NSA/ZNIS monitoring was devised. Likewise what should be the 5th Gen telephone (a digital decentralised mesh network topology, cheaper, safer, greener) is as yet unavailable.

    There remains the danger that as well as freezing the evolution of technology, that they might freeze the evolution of society, denying, disrupting the future radicals, with soft assassinations or just a subtle deprivation of benefits. I’ve no evidence that that is happening in the UK, with our current fairly average politicians. UK is still a nice place, my friends in gchq, hmgcc, ukntac are honest hard-working people.

    The near Future, with these enormously powerful but not yet understood dual-use weapons available, and the eventual rogue politicians driving it is one of my biggest worries. PRISM, XKeyscore, FoxAcid are currently (mostly) gathering data – but they can equally be used for instantly re-writing data, “deep packet injection”, that is a scary time when you can no longer trust what you’re reading – you ask for a WWW page – but there’s no guarantee, no trust, that the page anyone might see is the page that they asked for. It could easily have been manipulated in any direction, pro-this-faction, anti-the-other, in fact the whole UK population in 2020 might all have completely different ideas about who won that year’s election. Hmmm. Ubiquitous Digital Canary time!

  59. Thank you Iain for the pro-forma. I will send it to my MP.

    In about three weeks’ time I will receive a cream 1st Class envelope bearing the embossed HoC stamp containing a letter in reply printed on matching stationery which will consist of meaningless balm and attached to it a central office hand-out this time from Mrs May more than likely.

    I have quite a collection! Must have cost a fortune. I write via e-mail but the postal reply is probably used to make it more difficult to disseminate the contents.

  60. “There may be up to 400 dead in this strike. An awful way to go for the troops involved.”

    I agree and blame Yatsenyuk, Poroshenko, et al for these, as you say, military deaths. What a fine mess the US has got Ukraine into. I bet there is no decent person outside of Eastern Ukraine who would not want to go back to the days of Yakunovich. But the sad thing is Ukraine would have been a largely united country before western intervention and a senseless coup d’etat. Now Crimea is lost and very soon Eastern Ukraine will cede to and be accepted by Russia. When did the Yanks and NATO do any good, anywhere?

  61. Thank you, Ben. As it is called “The House of Commons”, one might assume that it’s purpose is to uphold the common law. More Orwellian inversion? The current name appears to be “The House of Uncommon Interests”.

  62. @John:

    I’ve a feeling that the US neocon wing won’t like to see it’s pet project in danger. There will be reprisals. They’ll want to take Crimea back to show their new best friends that they are more powerful than Russia, and I think some of them are probably crazy enough to play a poker game with “we win” and “ww3″ as the possible outcomes. Israel must have their noses a bit out of joint with all this shift from them, and the focus on helping Poreshenko, who is probably killing more civilians than they are.

  63. طيزك حمرا.

    11 Jul, 2014 - 10:01 pm

    @Peacewisher, anti-terror law is the greatest! It even stops US aggression. In 1992, when the US was going to attack Libya for the Lockerbie bombing, Libya invoked the relevant law, The Montreal Convention, which has dispute settlement provisions. Since the US framed Libya for the Lockerbie bombing, it would have been kind of awkward when that came out, so the rough tough USA backed down like a little sissy bitch and ran home. No war!

    Now, the bullshit fake terror legislation that you see in pathetic little totalitarian statelets like North Korea or the UK, that’s different. Laws like that compromise the sovereignty of states. The world can intervene. The international community is obligated to make those shitty little states grow up and accept their responsibilities. The international community exerts mounting pressure, peacefully, through treaty bodies, charter bodies, special procedures and regional or bilateral capacity-building. The pressure is hidden from you as a citizen but you can see the US and the UK squirming and thrashing to escape it, if you know where to look.

  64. “If so, how can a law just get passed by the House of Commons that ignores whether it is compatable with common law? ”

    Habeas corpus, a basic of English law, although established in the seventeenth century, goes back in one form or another to the Magna Carta. Even in the late eighteenth century Treason Trials people suspected terrorists/plotters (mostly members of corresponding societies) were never held in captivity for longer than six months without trial. That is what makes recent anti-terror laws so wrong. The one introduced in 2000 shows that there was a plan to target Muslims long before NATO countries initiated 9/11, and it is this act that has just been used to hold a suspect with a USB stick allegedly containing sniper instructions.

    http://www.itv.com/news/granada/story/2014-07-11/man-in-court-accused-of-terror-offences/

  65. TTIP is an affront to democracy
    By Miriam Ross

    Prime minister David Cameron loves to portray himself as the defender of British sovereignty in his dealings with the EU. But as the volume of his anti-EU posturing increases, he is busy pushing for a deal that will hand the sovereignty of his country, and others, to multinational companies.

    The next round of negotiations on the EU-US trade deal (also known as the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership or TTIP) begin in Brussels on Tuesday 15 July. Talks started last July, and proponents of the deal seem to have hoped to rush it through with as little scrutiny as possible. They have been disappointed, as opposition to the deal has risen rapidly in both sides of the Atlantic.

    In the US, trade unions and Democrat congressmen and women have prevented President Obama from fast-tracking the deal. Campaigners in Germany forced the European Commission to open a public consultation on one of the most controversial proposals in the deal – a plan to set up corporate tribunals with the power to override the decisions of elected governments. Some 100,000 people responded to the consultation – the highest number ever recorded. And Belgian MEPs were among dozens of campaigners arrested for protesting against the deal ahead of the European elections.

    On Saturday 12 July, towns and cities across Britain will see health campaigners, environmentalists, anti-poverty groups and trade unionists protesting under ‘No TTIP’ banners.

    As the diverse array of people lining up to oppose it suggests, the TTIP deal would affect many different aspects of life. But the common thread connecting objections to the deal is this: ,if agreed TTIP would greatly diminish the ability of governments to make decisions for the benefit of their citizens. Democracy itself is under threat.

    The part of the deal that has most enraged critics is a plan to set up supra-national corporate courts, in which companies can sue governments over decisions they think might affect their profits – even where governments have clearly acted in the public interest. This may sound like the stuff of fiction, unthinkable to anyone with any faith the democratic progress. In fact, it’s already happening.

    Under similar parallel legal systems, tobacco giant Philip Morris is currently suing both the Australian and the Uruguayan governments for, respectively, introducing plain packaging for cigarettes, and daring to print health warnings on packaging. Veolia, the multinational waste and energy company, sued Egypt for introducing the minimum wage. And Argentina was sued for freezing energy prices to protect consumers hit by the country’s financial collapse.

    In Britain, campaigners fighting to defend the cherished National Health Service fear that if a future government tried to renationalize the parts of the service that have already been privatized, it would be sued. And the need for companies to even use these courts could melt away – fear of being hit for billions of dollars could prevent governments from implementing policies that might raise the ire of the boardrooms. As well as preventing governments from acting in the public interest in the future, the TTIP deal would also sweep away years of hard-won regulations designed to protect people and the environment. One of the key issues on the table in the Brussels talks will be food standards, which are generally set much higher in Europe than in the United States. US agribusiness wants Europe to drop its ban on hormone-treated beef and pork and chlorine-washed chicken, and the American companies that sell these products have US Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack on side.

    Financial regulation is another major battleground. Following the financial crisis, the US introduced an inadequate smattering of controls on its finance sector in an attempt to prevent another collapse. But the big banks see even this weak regulation as unacceptable, and are pushing for TTIP to knock it on the head.

    Over the past few years, more and more of us have started to see our governments as acting in the interests of the rich and powerful. The EU-US trade deal could be seen as something of a test case. If we are to drag governments back to our sides, to be accountable to the people they were elected to represent, the battle to stop the TTIP deal is one we have to win.

    http://newint.org/blog/2014/07/11/ttip-democracy-trade/

  66. Iain

    You are satisfied that a beaureaucrat logs something somewhere? It’ll make no difference to the law and how it will be used. Really, that’ll do? Could you be rationalising your complete insignificance in a system that you believe in.

    So your MP rebels but the law still passes. You will give her your vote and thus vote for the party that enacted this legislation. That is a muddle.

    The system is dead! Long live the system!

  67. Clark

    Wasn’t the Greenwald/Snowden sh*tfest suppose to make the politicians retreat from the surveillance state? How’s that working out?

    Anyway battery flashing red. Time running out. Gotta go.

  68. Resident Dissident

    11 Jul, 2014 - 10:30 pm

    What is going on in Eastern Ukraine from a more neutral source than those favoured by the useless idiot

    “The bulk of the abductions are being perpetrated by armed separatists, with the victims often subjected to stomach-turning beatings and torture. There is also evidence of a smaller number of abuses by pro-Kyiv forces.”

    There are no comprehensive or reliable figures on the number of abductions, but the Ukrainian Ministry of Interior has reported nearly 500 cases between April and June 2014. The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission for Ukraine has recorded 222 cases of abduction in the last three months. ”

    The full report can be read here:

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-abduction-and-torture-2014-07-11

  69. Resident Dissident

    11 Jul, 2014 - 10:39 pm

    Did anyone notice how many Russians with past or current connections to the Putin regime were involved in the recent Tory fundraising shindig?

  70. “I’ve a feeling that the US neocon wing won’t like to see it’s pet project in danger. There will be reprisals.”

    Perhaps. Crimea has long been a naval base of the Russians and they will not let it go easily. Hopefully commonsense will prevail and Poroshenko and the other lunatics will see that they are in an unwinnable position. Eastern Ukraine will hate Kiev for years to come even if they get occupied. As you are a Peacewisher (me too) you will join me in hoping that this is an end to the madness!

  71. Talk of IDS getting the chop in a reshuffle plus Kenneth Clarke and Lansley.

    Esther McVey to replace IDS. Gawd help us in that case!

  72. ….. if you know where to look.

    Would you be kind enough to enlighten us all, as to where should we start at?

  73. RD, As you know I do not agree with torture whether it is the Eastern Liberation forces or Pro Kiev forces or your friends in Guantanamo and US Supermax prisons, or Karimov’s regime in Uzbekistan. The psyche behind torture is beyond me. But perhaps it has something to do with retaliation for the killing of civilians by those supportive of various factions.

    http://professorsblogg.com/2014/06/03/what-responsibility-does-sweden-have-in-the-massacres-of-civilians-perpetrated-by-ukraine-junta/

    Retaliation in the form of torture is abhorrent. I am behind Amnesty in bringing this to our attention. How to stop it, anywhere in the world, is, like recourse to torture itself, beyond me.

  74. Clark

    Wasn’t the Greenwd/Snowden fest suppose to curb the surveillance state? How’s that working out?

  75. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 10:54 pm

    Peacewisher

    “I object very strongly to your mocking of views expressed on this blog that relate to freedom of speech, the UN charter of human rights, what our forebears fought for in ww2, and “British”? principles that go back hundreds of years ”
    ___________________

    Sorry you feel like that, Peacewisher. But I should be more inclined to sympathise with you if you could show me where I’m “mocking” those principles as such, as opposed to mocking the exaggerations, untruths, evasions and sloppy thinking of a good number of the Eminences squatting on this blog.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “how can a law just get passed by the House of Commons that ignores whether it is compatable with common law?”

    ______________________

    Because statute law, as passed by Parliament, can supersede common law and “compatibility” with common law is not a criterion for statute law.

  76. Sorry repeating myself. Feel free to delete dip and this mods.

  77. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    11 Jul, 2014 - 11:00 pm

    “The pressure is hidden from you as a citizen but you can see the US and the UK squirming and thrashing to escape it, if you know where to look.”

    It’s an International secret, fedup. All we need is patience.

  78. By the way RD, whenever you get turned over in an argument, which is most of the time, you resort to attacking those who roll you on your back. You’ve done it before. It gains you no brownie points calling me a “useless idiot” but shows you up for what you are. I’ll let you work that one out.

  79. Glad I missed it.

    Question Time’s ‘passionate highlander’ is the William Wallace of the Better Together campaign
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/question-times-passionate-highlander-is-the-william-wallace-of-the-better-together-campaign-9599554.html

    The whole programme

    David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Inverness. Scotland votes on independence in September 2014, and the panel features campaigners for both sides from a range of occupations: singer-songwriter Ricky Ross, Daily Record columnist and agony aunt Joan Burnie, businessman and chairman of Orion Group Alan Savage, and the Scotland and British Lions rugby player Scott Hastings.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b049bj5f

  80. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 11:08 pm

    Peacewisher

    John Goss’s post at 22h02 reinfirces my point, I think. Habeas corpus as it operates today derives not from common law or for that matter i any meaningful sense from the Magna Carta but from various Acts of Parliament, in other words, from statute law.

  81. Well of course I realise the problem and I am merely trying to document the event…We got old..but we didn’t lose our Love and Determination To Make Things That are Good Work…They Haven’t

    You Fuckers Are Completely Fucking Useless…

    You 50 Year Olds Are Not My Son’s Generation…and You certainly Aren’t Mine…

    What a Bunch of Completely Useless Twats…

    Nearly Everyone with Any Talent RESIGNED

    Smarmy without a Brain Cell Between You.

    Craig Murray..just about Crept In..Oh Come On You Can’t seriously Expect Us To Believe This Nonsense

    The Kids Are All Right.

    Tony

  82. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 11:14 pm

    Mary re Question Time

    How many more times are you going to preface or end a useless bit of information about a BBC programme (in this case, who was on it) by saying “I did not listen” or “Glad I missed it”?

    Again the old question : what is the point??

    We might just conceivably be interested in hearing your views about something which may have been said, but why should we be interested to learn that you didn’t listen to a programme?

    ******************

    As I said before, button up a little. Just a little!

  83. @John

    Of course I want peace. But in a world containing powerful people who seem to get satisfaction from the spilling of blood, the only lasting peace will be that obtained from a position of strength. Even with that, they’ll come back at you a few years later to test your defences.

    I was swayed towards a multilateral position regarding nuclear weapons as this simple fact penetrated my naïve mind. Is Russia strong enough to back up its taking back of Crimea? Even though they broke International Law to do so, I think they had little choice after the US intervened… without Crimea they probably wouldn’t have been strong enough to resist. Why take the risk?

    The way to avoid bloodshed regarding East Ukraine would probably have been for Russia to set up a no fly zone, which they probably wouldn’t get UN support for. Very bad for the Donbass people though. Interesting times, and we should always wish for a world where there are secure borders appropriately policed, and no country interferes in the affair of any other country. I think there was a song about this, and I think that song was in Brian Haw’s last hurrah, as he was dying of cancer in Germany.

  84. Thanks, John and Habby. If Statute Law is the more recent wording for Common Law, that gives me a useful place to start… bringing in emergency legislation like this cannot be right.

  85. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 11:22 pm

    Nevermind

    “Doug, please stop quoting its idiot objections to everything everyone says.”

    _____________________

    NebelMind, please listen to what your Leader Ba’al said! You’re f***ing up his Habbabreak invention. Pleeeeze!

    (Just substitute “Ingo” for “Doug”)

  86. We have never met her..but we know her Dinner Teachers…and She is Watching …Oh Come on and Choose a Song…

    Which one would you like???

    Forgotten Already..or a song that The Girl..She Herslelf Wrote

    Now What Exactly Is Her Name???

    Did She Go To The Brit School??

    Am I invited to meet her?

    At Ruskin House??

    Will I Be There???

    Or Will Be at a Friend’s BBQ

    “Adele – Someone Like You”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLQl3WQQoQ0

    Tony

  87. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    11 Jul, 2014 - 11:25 pm

    Peacewisher

    “If Statute Law is the more recent wording for Common Law,…etc, etc..”
    _____________________

    “The more recent wording”? You haven’t understood a thing, have you.

  88. Well…. this was considered a “best answer” on Yahoo Answer:

    “…

    Common law is a mechanism to bind people to a set of mores and traditions that reflect the common attitudes and preferences agreed by or acceptable to that society, statutory law is a mechanism to dictate to people how they will behave in that society whether or not it accords with their attitudes and preferences and whether or not it represents the common or majority view.

    Common law is a true expression of a democratic and fair government, Statute law is an expression of authoritarian and dictatorial government.”

    Anyone like to disagree with that final sentence?

  89. Peacewisher, every conflict ends up round a table. I agree with what you say about negotiating from a position of strength is what every negotiator wants. What I don’t agree with is that Russia broke international law in taking back Crimea – it was the will of the people by referendum. Stop watching MSM or reading comments by ESLO/Resident Dissident. :) There was also a lot longer period planned before the referendum than Cameron’s 2 day new law demanding that electronics companies retain our personal data to pass on to their governments and unaccountable secret services.

  90. @Habby: Law isn’t my thing. That’s why I’m asking all these dumb questions. And I can’t being wrong in the meantime, so please forgive my lack of understanding. Something just doesn’t seem right about the current legislation – even under statute law – but it’s clearly not right under common law.

    By all means correct me again…

  91. @John: Russia has broken International Law once, many countries have broken International Law numerous times since the break up of the Soviet Union, and shed lots of blood (notably absent during the change of ruling power in Crimea) so I’m not having a go… just stating a fact.

  92. OK, let’s forget common law, for our current purposes.

    For statutory law to be passed it starts as a Bill…

    “A Bill is a proposal for a new law, or a proposal to change an existing law that is presented for debate before Parliament. Bills are introduced in either the House of Commons or House of Lords for examination, discussion and amendment. When both Houses have agreed on the content of a Bill it is then presented to the reigning monarch for approval (known as Royal Assent). Once Royal Assent is given a Bill becomes an Act of Parliament and is law. ”

    I remember following the progress of RIP through its various stages in 2000, and al the controversy it caused along the way. But how does this “due process” of law-making fit with the current Cameron/Clegg shenanigans?

  93. Tucked away in Paragraph 43 of the notes on the emergency surveillance laws being rushed through parliament are the purposes for which communications data can be looked at.
    Along with interests of national security, and in preventing crime, there is this: “For the purpose of assessing or collecting any tax, duty, levy or other imposition, contribution or charge payable to a government department.”

  94. @KJH: Thank you for this.

    How can this proposed legislation already have “cross party support” when it contains a paragraph such as this? Perhaps because they haven’t all read it yet, let alone consulted with their constituents? Isn’t this abuse of democracy?

  95. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    11 Jul, 2014 - 11:59 pm

    Statute could be synonymous with shenanigans, Peacewisher. That’s the point of using Admiralty Law to regulate drivers through licensing and fees for registration of the vehicle.

    That’s why they use the word ‘vessel’ for automobile and roads then become ‘waterways’. Our precious legislators (lawyers) established this ingenious systems of controls.

  96. I do realise it might seem an almost impossible task..and I may well be useless at it..how could I know..I (just me – I am not part of any conspiracy) sure I have friends in the real world..You Know where you go out and meet people..and My Wife has Done That tonight…with our Son and Daughter) I know I write drunken bollocks…but I never fell out of love with her..and she didn’t with me….I have only spoken too her twice on the phone since we parted…for reasons that we had no control over…we never betrayed each other…and after all this time…she has confided in me…well a bit..we both have our own Families…Both Boy and Girl (Hers are a few Years Older Than Ours)

    So My Wife Saw Me Writing To My Ex..She Already Knew…I had spoken to her on the phone in 1999 and in May 2014….But Those Two Phone Converastions Were The Only Ones..since My Ex..phoned me Up in Manchester and My New Girlfriend answered The Phone…

    She Looks at Me Today….

    Well Of Course…

    She Could Hardly say Anything Else…

    So Do You Want To Go and See Her…

    There is a Train That Will Take You There…

    I Looked at My Wife….

    Its Not My Fault.

    What am I supposed to Do???

    So I asked My Lancashire Girlfriend…well I told her..she said you must be fuckin completely insane to talk to your ex….when….Your wife is so nice..She was really worried about me..cos she knows we other each other so…and then their is our Spanish Girlfriend…who (I really know this – just loves us both so much)

    Please Pray For Her To Get Better

    My Ex-Girlfriend (Nearly My Wife)

    I just Love Her So…

    I just want The Love To Flow….

    I mean wtf are we doing here?..if not to be nice to each other and take The Evil Bastards To Court..a Court of Law…Starting with on our side…Scottish Actually…

    ANTHONY CHARLES LYNTON BLAIR

    He Kids are Older Than Mine..and Both are Top Lawyers

    Don’t You Want To Take any Responsibilty

    To Take on This EVIL Yourself..

    And Confront It???

    You would be Surprised…

    Tony

  97. @Ben: the laws on use of roads seem fair, whether or not its origin is in Maritime Law. Obviously plenty of debate etc. with MPs and constituents to make sure they got it right… 1931, I think.

    It seems to me that in recent times laws are brought in without such public consultation. Use of the word “Emergency” is presumably used to get it through with minimum “fuss”. Wonder what the normal trigger point would be for Emergency legislation.

  98. Personally, I think it is an extremely good idea to tell the truth…and if you don’t and you for example..well say the well You Know Like innocent Sweethearts,,,and you know…and after a year together..you really do not expect this…so you ..well what is the alternative…of course you are still in love with her..cos she never betrayed you..and you never betrayed her,,==but now you are with another…for another year too..and she gave me all her love..just so sweet,,,I mean what do you do..I thought she was betraying me..but probably wasn’t…There is absolutely No Way You Can Hide The Scratches On Your Back…

    She Pretended Not To Notice..She Just Got Me Suited and Booted and Sent Me On My Way.

    Yorkshire Girls are Something Else..

    We Cried Together at her Council House in Buttershaw, She Liked Hawkwind Too…when John Lennon Died and Princess Diane Got Married…But 9 Months Later..I had Scratches Down My Back…

    I only did it once.

    She did have two kids that weren’t mine

    I am not perfect…The morning after I would turn up at work..and they kust looked at me..just hoping..and I was covered with love bites all over my neck…

    But its Tony..No Way…???

    Not in the same league guys.

    Tony

  99. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    12 Jul, 2014 - 12:51 am

    Question Time’s ‘passionate highlander’ is the William Wallace of the Better Together campaign”

    Two words: sheep dip

  100. I never thought of the 7/7 bombings as being anything but 4 Yorkshire Muslims who had gone off the rails killing ordinary civilians because of Tony Blair’s policies, the way the BBC and other MSM channels and news outlets presented it. Tony Gosling, who sometimes contributes here, has made me rethink.

    http://rt.com/op-edge/172048-london-bombings-police-state/

  101. طيزك حمرا.

    12 Jul, 2014 - 12:59 am

    @fedup, the thing to remember is, the government doesn’t give a rat’s ass what its subject population thinks, but it’s acutely sensitive to treaty bodies, charter bodies, special procedures, arbitral panels, and case law in independent courts. So by looking at those reviews (the original documents, not media accounts) you can often map changes in government doctrine or conduct point-by-point to coordinated pressure from those bodies. The impetus from the international community is intently suppressed.

    [closed captions for the passive-aggressive provided by Ben]

  102. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    12 Jul, 2014 - 1:19 am

    two more: organophosphate-related neuropsychological-impairment

  103. Where do we find secret decoder ring for how scared the State is about treaties and such?

  104. What Americans need to Realise..We in England Really We Do Not Need Your Help..well O.K. a bit,,Can You Please Start Being Polite and Nice..My Wife and Kids Just Come Home…It was a Life Reggae and Ska Night..I Didn’t fancy it cos I wanted to talk to my Ex_Girlfriend One of The Other Loves of My Life…Is That O.K.? I just love her so..and No I couldn;t be so impolite…I just want all your Love to Flow To Her..She ain’t so good at the moment..Her Doctor Told Her..She just had asthma. For the First tine since 1999 ( we used to make love to each other in 1979)…So O>K. Facebook was O.K…we found each other again…we have rather obscure/different names – my wife asked me what she looks like now,,,and to be honest..I was just completely amazed…But I have told my wife….Yes I will show you the Time Stamped Photograoh…Of Her Son and Daughter on Her Son’s 30th Birthday…

    Which Girl is My Ex?

    Her or Her Daughter?

    I did say that She Still Looks Exactly The Same since the last time I saw her in 1981 just before I met You…

    These Angels Are Something Else – So Pray For Susan…She Was My First When I Was 3 Years Old…Girls are Something Else..Not Like Boys, I notice The Difference. I think they are on my side…but I can see that finger…

    Oh Come On…

    I’m a Good Boy.

    And They Know I am.

    All The Girls Love My Wife and Me.

    I make sort of friends with my boy friends…but always think they want to make friends with my wife…sure I may be a bit paranoid…but she is an incredibly Nice Girl..My Wife,,

    Tony

  105. طيزك حمرا.

    12 Jul, 2014 - 2:00 am

    Take torture. In specific response to Human Rights Committee review (proceedings on video and embargoed Conclusions and Recommendations circulating in draft, last I looked), you can see the outward signs of a panicked struggle inside the US government to rejig its official superior-order defense so that it gets you off the hook and hooks somebody, anybody, else. Everybody knows they’ll need a scapegoat. JSOC’s choice for scapegoat is CIA. CIA’s choice is DoJ. DoJ’s choice is POTUS. They’ll need to pick individual virgins to throw into the volcano to atone for what’s now officially defined as a crime against humanity. It won’t get decided until after the Committee Against Torture piles on in the fall.

    If I believed you were interested and not just sneering and sniping, there’s more to be said, but on like Crypto-cat, not here. But you can just sit and wait for the leaks.

  106. Ref Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    11 Jul, 2014 – 11:14 pm
    Mary re Question Time
    How many more times are you going to preface or end a useless bit of information about a BBC programme (in this case, who was on it) by saying “I did not listen” or “Glad I missed it”?
    Again the old question : what is the point??
    We might just conceivably be interested in hearing your views about something which may have been said, but why should we be interested to learn that you didn’t listen to a programme?
    ******************
    As I said before, button up a little. Just a little!

    ~~~

    The link to QT was put up specifically for those interested, like many here, in the outcome of the Scottish referendum, the involvement of the BBC in the Better Together campaign and for general information.

    As I have said before, fuck off a lot. Just a lot! You ghastly creature, that is if you are a living being.

  107. What a very strange little piece from the psychopath.
    No context. No links. He was obviously rattled.

    ‘Latest News

    Statement from the Office of Tony Blair
    Wednesday, Jul 02, 2014 in Office of Tony Blair

    The story is nonsense and we have told them so. Tony Blair is not a formal advisor to Sisi he has simply said that it is vital for Egypt, the region and the world that the new President and his Government succeed in reforming their country and taking it to a better future and that the international community supports them in doing so. He has said this publically on a number of occasions and also stated he would be happy to help galvanise that support if he can.

    This is nothing to do with ‘business opportunities’ and we have absolutely no idea what correspondence the Guardian is referring to. Let me be very clear – neither Tony Blair, nor any of his organisations have any commercial interest in Egypt, nor are they seeking business in Egypt, nor have they ever discussed doing business in Egypt. This is simply incorrect.

    What is true and we have made categorically clear is that there is no commercial interest in, and absolutely no intention to make money from, Egypt.’
    http://www.tonyblairoffice.org/news/entry/statement-from-the-office-of-tony-blair/

    blair, blair, blair, blair, blair, blair, blair, blair, blair.
    That’s how many times, the name appeared in the link above. He obviously likes to see his name in print.

  108. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 8:38 am

    “By the way RD, whenever you get turned over in an argument, which is most of the time, you resort to attacking those who roll you on your back.”

    Oh you mean with comments like this:

    “Stop watching MSM or reading comments by ESLO/Resident Dissident.”

    “RD, As you know I do not agree with torture whether it is the Eastern Liberation forces or Pro Kiev forces or your friends in Guantanamo and US Supermax prisons,”

  109. John Goss

    You interested in 7/7? Google: Martin ‘Abdullah’ McDaid, a former member of the SBS turned Islam convert, who worked in the bookshop in Beeston with the other alleged perps. Reportedly, he ‘did most of the talking, most of the ranting and raving; and as an ex-Marine, he knew about matters military’.

    In an in interview with the Mirror he described himself:

    ‘I’m an ex-anti-terrorist operator. I spent one and a half years with the Special Forces – with the Special Boat Service.’

    UK special forces guy becomes radical convert to Islam? How plausible is that? Perhaps he was a member of the First Battalion, Queens Own Spooky Patsy-makers

  110. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 8:55 am

    “That’s how many times, the name appeared in the link above. He obviously likes to see his name in print.”

    But clearly not as many times as Mary does.

  111. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 8:58 am

    I am waiting for the first theory supporting the view that Brasil’s defeat to Germany was a false flag operation.

  112. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:12 am

  113. John Goss
    11 Jul, 2014 – 7:19 pm
    “We will kill hundreds of them for each of ours” Was that Poroshenko, Hitler or Netenyahoo?
    Whether they support them or not, Ukrainians know just what US / EU have brought back to life in Ukraine. Shame on them.

    Great to see you back aboard, all cylinders firing.

  114. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:18 am

    Peacewisher

    “Well…. this was considered a “best answer” on Yahoo Answer:

    “…

    Common law is a mechanism to bind people to a set of mores and traditions that statutory law is a mechanism to dictate to people how they will behave in that society whether or not it accords with their attitudes and preferences and whether or not it represents the common or majority view.

    Common law is a true expression of a democratic and fair government, Statute law is an expression of authoritarian and dictatorial government.”

    Anyone like to disagree with that final sentence?”

    ____________________

    The perils of stopping thinking at the reading of Wikipedia. In summary:

    1/. re the 1st para : the elements of common law go back many centuries (to medieval times). If, therefore, it “reflects the common attitudes and preferences agreed by or acceptable to that society”, then it reflects those of the centuries in which it arose, ie medieval times, in which it could hardly be said that democracy flourished. Representative democracy is relatively recent.

    2/. re your question to the 2nd para : in the light of what I’ve just said, it is not possible to agree with the claim in that para.

  115. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:32 am

    Peacewisher

    “I remember following the progress of RIP through its various stages in 2000, and al the controversy it caused along the way. But how does this “due process” of law-making fit with the current Cameron/Clegg shenanigans?”
    ____________________

    I agree that “rushing through” a bill us an undesirable phenomenon and should not happen except in the most time-critical circumstances*. It often results in defective legislation with unforeseen consequences or outcomes. My own opinion is that the current bill does not merit “rushing through”.

    However, “rushing through” does not mean that due process is not observed. It is, but all the stages of Parliamentary procedure are simply time-compressed.

    “Rushing through” is obviously facilitated when govt and opposition agree on the thrust and contents of the bill in question (you will have noticed that recourse is not being made to the guillotine procedure).
    ___________

    * an example I can think of off-hand was when an immigration bill was rushed through at the time of the expulsion of Asians from certain Eastern African countries.

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:39 am

    Mary

    “The link to QT was put up specifically for those interested, like many here, in the outcome of the Scottish referendum, the involvement of the BBC in the Better Together campaign and for general information.”
    ________________

    “For general information”. Do you not think that this information is available in seconds for anyone interested?

    You will keep posting this sort of “general information” on here. I’m beginning to suspect that you just feel impelled to keep posting throughout the day and that anything will do.

    BTW, thanks for the “fuck off a lot” – much appreciated! 1

  117. Thanks, Habby.

    You are suggesting that modern laws are superior to medieval ones… I’m wondering what grounds you are basing that on.

    I’d be with you about representative democracy if/when it is representative. How can Emergency Legislation be representative… almost by definition it is potentially “authoritarian and dictatorial”, which may be where/why the author of the Yahoo answer chooses to use such dramatic terminology..

    The Emergency Powers Act that allows the government of the day to become dictators apparently came into being in early 1964 (!) In response, the BBC made a programme called “The War Game” which was banned, but many of us have seen at private showings over the years. This provided a scenario of what would happen if the government exerted these powers. Was there wide consultation? If even a BBC film was banned, I suggest not. I am also going to be cheeky enough to say that this legislation appeared whilst the Profumo Scandal was still having its effects, which would also be a time when the public had become suspicious of the morality of people in government.

    I wonder if the BBC will make an update version of “The War Game”… can’t see it somehow.

  118. Thanks Craig.

    “In the last few weeks there has been a concerted effort to ratchet up the fear of the extremely remote possibility of a terrorist attack.”

    Compare the phoney fear-creation program in the UK with the real fear-creation being done across the globe by the UK’s pets.

    Was Inna Kukuruza a terrorist?

    Do the geniuses who do these things really think Russian society will see the re-emergence of fascism in Europe without being gripped by deep and visceral fear and revulsion? That’s the kind of fear that mobilises the kind of grim and remorseless resistence that defeated both Hitler and Napoleon.

    The best that the Gladio merchants can hope for is brief windows of opportunity to pass a few more repressive laws in a desperate attempt to protect them from their own populations and laws.

    “Why is the fear ratchet being screwed right up just now?” Maybe because they know more and more people are finding them out and their fear level has reached their undergarments.

  119. nevermind, viva beautiful football

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:57 am

    Our school master is making out that he is in charge here, always ready to intersperse a large news dissemination and discussion blog with his cyber stalking ways.
    As a not so learned person he must have had problems at his last few establishment posts to be marched here to do pentence to his erstwhile paymasters.

    He’s probably on a fat pension now and is ending his dubious existence in the shadow of paedophile inquieries tackling abuse during his hay days in education and a largely ignored massaker on Palestinians, a cyclical requirement of zionists that like to manufacture outrage to improve their drooping popularity figures by creasting fear and loathing en masse. You are an apolopgist for zionist murder and mayhem socket, thats sad and not clever.

    Fuck off a lot is too nice, how about fuck off and die?

  120. Rushed through? No of course not!

    Troll: “My own opinion is that the current bill does not merit “rushing through”.” LOL

    ~~~~

    Emergency data law: does UK need rushed ‘anti-terror’ bill?

    The government plans to rush through emergency data law

    Critics say new emergency data law breaches human rights – so why is the government ‘railroading’ it through?

    LAST UPDATED AT 10:42 ON Thu 10 Jul 2014

    Emergency surveillance bill a ‘stitch-up’ says Tom Watson

    The government is set to announce plans to rush through emergency legislation that will force phone and internet companies to keep records of users’ online activities as well as customers’ calls and text messages.

    Critics say that the bill presents a threat to people’s civil liberties. Below is an overview of what the bill proposes and why it is being pushed through so swiftly.

    /..

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/59392/emergency-data-law-does-uk-need-rushed-anti-terror-bill

  121. @Habby regarding “rushing through”.

    I see where you are coming from but in this case due process is about consultation, and that necessarily takes time.

    I know you like to tease all of us but can also detect your own unease in this matter – on the one hand this is reassuring but on the other hand worrying, in that you (like many of us, I suppose) don’t see it necessary to be any more than just “uneasy”, as if that will make a difference to those in government. Would the 1964 Act have been used for purposes of control if the conservatives had won the 1964 election, for example? I’m much too young to know about those times but maybe someone can shed a little light…

  122. Please don’t feed the trolls.

  123. I wanted to know what he thought about it, Mary. Not as a troll, but as a person.

  124. Fed up at 9.23 pm on 11 July: My comment was not taken from any public open source. While it was inspired by a friend sending me a copy of his letter to his MP, I amended and added a lot to that text. I’m happy for others to use or draw on my letter to Tessa Jowell in emailing their MP.

    On Phil’s points (passim) about the system being broken and the need to join the revolution, I don’t disagree but like him I’m stuck with our current clapped-out vehicle. The revolution has not yet rolled off the production line, nor has Phil provided the design specifications or addresses where I can buy into his brave new world. Most people here seem to agree with Craig’s explanation why the proposed legislation is so objectionable; and are adding to his analysis or developing related themes. That all forms part of the zeitgeist, though I’m sure that neither I nor Mary would regard writing to MPs as anything more than a rather minor contribution to public debate on this and other issues.

    So, my stand is against the Russell Brand/ Phil principled apathists and on the side of the more activist* – admittedly with some fascist leanings – Plato: “One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” (Source: The Pessimist’s Handbook,2008 p 110. Please add visual illustration of Phil as John Cleese looking down on the hoi polloi who have the temerity to comment on Craig’s blogs).
    * Activists are all proto-fascists, but in healthy societies these tendencies are kept in check by there being no legal obstacles to anyone being an activist. That’s why it’s important to prevent or dismantle this latest Home Office obstacle to freedom from state-registered snoopers and clypes.

  125. “You are suggesting that modern laws are superior to medieval ones… I’m wondering what grounds you are basing that on.”

    How about modern laws apply to everyone while medieval laws only applied to the upper classes?

    The common man, the vast majority, were effectively slaves. Had no free will and no self determination. No freedom of movement. Could not even get married without the permission of the lord. They had no rights whatsoever.

  126. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 10:34 am

    “You are suggesting that modern laws are superior to medieval ones… I’m wondering what grounds you are basing that on.”

    The laws on slavery, sending children up chimneys and bear baiting come to mind.

  127. Liberalism is just a useless slogan.

  128. Ok… but those laws reflected the culture of the time, for those who did have a say. We don’t agree with child labour or cruelty to animals, but those were the norms of the day.

    The norms of the day in 2014 are based on (representative) democracy. The impending legislation is another step towards undermining such common norms through further distorting the “representative” bit.

  129. Do you have a better one, Arsalan?

  130. Slightly off-topic, but it is somewhat bizarre that the only mm outlet that properly covered yesterday’s demonstration in London was the Daily Mail:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2689465/Hundreds-pro-Palestinian-demonstrators-bring-London-traffic-standstill-protest-outside-Israeli-embassy.html

    Perhaps their motives were not as we would wish?
    (i.e. get the water cannon ready, Boris!)

  131. The day that happens Peacewisher (finding out what he thinks) it will rain blue ink. Excuse me but I have reason to be prejudiced in this matter.

  132. OK, Mary. We all have our prejudices :)

  133. “Along with interests of national security, and in preventing crime, there is this: “For the purpose of assessing or collecting any tax, duty, levy or other imposition, contribution or charge payable to a government department””

    This provision is not new. It’s to be found in the
    Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000

  134. Why is the fear ratchet being screwed right up just now? What is this leading up to?… craig

    The herd of stampeding elephants in the room, Craig, and intelligence services flexing new muscles and field testing IT Virtual Power Control. Or are y’all here of the opinion that established and Establishment spooky default services are as cowed cuckolds and mindlessly status quo dependent rather than rapid and even rabidly active and extremely stealthy revolutionary independent special operation forces?

    And whoever would one ask to know, and for it to be, however plausibly, implausibly denied, for as is being increasingly recognised and discussed here, is the System rattled by something way beyond both its practical and virtually remote command and control.

    amanfromMars 1 Sat 12 Jul 06:56 [1407120656] commenting on http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/07/10/google_ventures_opens_new_fund_in_london/

    Condor Flight Path for Vulture Rich Pickings/Rich Vulture Sit-Ins/Venture Capitalisation

    It has long been known, Martin S, that practise makes perfect and perfect is great practice and for Glorious Command Head Quarters and Remote Vital Virtual and Virile Virtuous Control of Global Operating Devices, on and in Dark Web Enterprises with Black Watch AIdVenturers, is it IT Par for every course.

    Is any and every bet and event move, which can be in any way perceived as being against and in aggressive negative competition to, rather than in simple surreal support with and sublime encouragement of, SMARTR Virtual Machines and InterNet Working Infrastructures …. ITs XSSXXXXoSkeleton ……. a crushing hammer blow to failing dumb systems and corrupted perverse executive administrative persons of particular and peculiar interest and/or waned influence?

    And would such be a Front Facing AI in the Virtual Field and CyberSpace Place and Forward Operating Base of MIComplexIT only the Dire Rich and Retarded Foolhardy would Dare 42 Win Win against in order to Fail Fundamentally and Crash Catastrophically in CHAOS ….. Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems ……. Astute Active Alien Systems of Operation with Exotic and Erotic Universally Attractive and Addictive Projects for Man Management in a Reputable ReProgramming of Heavenly Assets and Earthly Bodies/Persons and Agencies?

    Take Care, IT’s a Mined Mind Field out there ……

    A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

    Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

    Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

    This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

    Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.

    In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

    Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

    The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present

    and is gravely to be regarded. ….. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 34th President of the United States

  135. We are now looking to Germany to make some kind of stand against this kind of US led fear-bombing of us.

    Imagine the UK out of the EU, and we would be left on this island with US drones; “Cameron, Clegg and Milliband.

  136. Dan Huil
    11 Jul, 2014 – 4:00 pm

    Agreed you hit pay dirt to Craig’s questions:

    Why is the fear ratchet being screwed right up just now? What is this leading up to?

    The Daily Wail harbinger is here:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2446636/Scotland-likely-suffer-catastrophic-terror-attack-achieves-independence.html

    Security at Faslane has been reinforced since my recent post:

    scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/faslane-vulnerable-to-terrorists-1-1098140

    Another 2007 Glasgow airport attack is too obvious. Scotland £24 billion oil and gas reserve pipelines are the perfect target…

  137. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 12:32 pm

    @Mary
    “The absence of liberalism aka the presence of fascism.”

    Not much liberalism here in Mary’s comments from the last three threads alone. Strangely enough those leaping to Mary’s defence when anyone expresses the slightest criticism tend to ignore the bile she dispenses so liberally.

    “As I have said before, fuck off a lot. Just a lot! You ghastly creature, that is if you are a living being.”
    “Please don’t feed the trolls.”
    “Too many books, many unreadable and not enough hours in the day or months in the year to read them anyway. Stick to what you are doing Craig. Much more worthwhile.”
    ““For Heaven’s sake button up just a little!” Take your own advice why don’t you.”
    “Did he have Edwina on his lap when they watched it together? What an unlikely pairing that was.”
    “Sicko Anon is on to his usual form”
    “How disgusting to say that anyone can ‘get off’ on the killing of innocents including little children. Beyond words. Suggest a mouthwash.”
    “More useless information. Telling us what we already know except they say ‘may have’ rather than ‘have’.”
    “The empty words from the mouth of the psychopath.”
    “He (i.e.the former Archbishop of Canterbury) should have been a rabbi.”

  138. Andrew Leslie

    12 Jul, 2014 - 12:44 pm

    MJ
    At 7.24pm on 11/7 you posted that Alex. Salmond is an idiot. I asked you to elaborate, you have not done so. Why should anyone listen to your anti-SNP rants, which have no substance to support them?

  139. “MJ
    At 7.24pm on 11/7 you posted that Alex. Salmond is an idiot. I asked you to elaborate, you have not done so. Why should anyone listen to your anti-SNP rants, which have no substance to support them?”

    I have been unable to locate either of those posts.

  140. All true R2D2. How long did that silly little exercise take you?

    Most have no context and one of them was written by your best mate, the troll aka Habbabkuk. Check before you make any more slurs.

    Get a life and contribute something worthwhile here for a change.

  141. “Great to see you back aboard, all cylinders firing.”

    I needed the break Sofia. Looking forward to the next. Great cartoon by the way. No need for words.

    KOWN, will take a look. Thanks for the lead.

  142. The Dimblebores have both been in Scotland. Senior on Question Time and Junior on Any Questions from Pollokshields.

    The AQ panel is Jim Murphy – Better Together and Labour Friend of Israel, Nicola Sturgeon, deputy first minister MSP, chair of the Westminster Defence Select Committee Rory Stewart Con MP and a journalist on The Scotsman and Sunday Post, Lesley Riddoch.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b048nsnh

    Any Answers is usually a more bearable programme to listen it. It follows the AQ repeat which is being broadcast on Radio 4 at the moment. A question on the public sector strike follows one on Gaza.

  143. A local authority in Surrey has been found out in placing cameras within a council owned property on suspicion of drug dealing and handling by the residents. Dummy cameras were placed outside and the real cameras were disguised in plastic cable shielding in the building.

    A local, aged 27 and described as a ‘mobile marketer’ ie a mobile phone salesman, interviewed about the spying said: …I don’t think we’re over monitored. I’m not worried because I’m not doing anything I shouldn’t be’.

    Oh dear! The poor lad’s brain has been fried by his mobiles.

    http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/guildford-borough-council-illegally-installed-7378049

  144. They making the final preparations for the totalitarian police state. The banking crash is imminent and they plan to steal everyone’s money to pay for it. They hope to brutally repress any rebellion. My guess is that too many are awake now and they’ll have real problems getting enough idiots to put their lives on the line to keep the scum in power.

  145. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 2:02 pm

    “Get a life and contribute something worthwhile here for a change.”

    You just don’t get it do you?

    BTW the quote you attribute to Habba was you quoting him. Please note the second set of inverted commas. The slurs are all your own liberal handiwork.

  146. “MJ
    At 7.24pm on 11/7 you posted that Alex. Salmond is an idiot. I asked you to elaborate, you have not done so”

    Don’t think that was me. A while back however on another thread I suggested Alex Salmond showed weakness when he did not stand up to Donald Trump and that this did not augur well for future dealings with more powerful operators such as NATO and the oil companies. I said that at the time however so no further elaboration is required I would have thought.

  147. At 7.24pm on 11/7 I responded to a suggestion that the yes campaign was winning by drawing attention to the opinion polls. Is that really an anti-SNP rant? No-one asked me to elaborate. The polls speak for themselves.

  148. So now London is threatening Scotland with devastating cyber attacks if it votes Yes in the referendum, as only it, the USA, India, China, and Russia have the capability to do so, and it would have the most likely motive for doing so then.

    Think a more devastating attack is more likely before the vote to make sure nothing is necessary after it.

  149. Andrew Leslie

    12 Jul, 2014 - 2:57 pm

    Sorry, my error, it was 2nd July at 7.31 on the Public Servce topic. But it WAS YOU.
    I asked you to elaborate on your assertion that Alex Salmond was an idiot. Surely you remember making that remark.
    An answer now would be welcome.

  150. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:11 pm

    Peacewisher

    “Thanks, Habby.

    You are suggesting that modern laws are superior to medieval ones… I’m wondering what grounds you are basing that on.”
    __________________

    No, I’m saying that statute law is more modern and a response to the contemporary situation as opposed to life 700 years ago. Nothing to do with being “superior”.

    ************

    I have the sneaking suspicion that you’re not seeking to learn but merely trying to wind me up. Or just slow on the uptake? Whichever it is, if you decide to put any more “questions” I’ll leave it to someone else – perhaps an Eminence – to answer. :)

  151. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:23 pm

    “I have the sneaking suspicion that you’re not seeking to learn but merely trying to wind me up”

    Projection, is a much misunderstood concept. :)

  152. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:23 pm

    Anybody else get a request from 38 degrees to fill out a survey?

    “Please can you fill out this quick survey about the internet and democracy? I’ll need your thoughts by Monday. It should only take a few minutes. I want to be sure I’m speaking for as many of us as possible, not just giving my own opinions. Just click here to get started.
    https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/digital-democracy-poll

    I thought the survey was designed to deliver the opinions they wanted to hear, and said so in the ‘Any other issues?’ field:

    “This survey is designed to encourage criticism of ‘digital democracy’. The questions are leading, and the field in which to record a ‘good’ communication experience with my MP is more restrictive than for a ‘bad’. The fact that my experience of communicating with my MP has been bad doesn’t blind me to the built-in bias of your survey. This survey is not designed to canvas members’ opinions – it is designed to return the opinions you want.”

     

  153. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:27 pm

    Mary to Peacewisher

    “Please don’t feed the trolls.”

    Very similar to “Ba’al Zevuls”‘s plea to NeverHadAMind “pleeeze don’t respond to it”.

    Not your blog, Mary, not your blog and not your business to tell other commenters what to do.

  154. Found it. I’d forgotten about it and did not return to the thread after making my brief comment. Here it is:

    “Unfortunately, Scotland is not short of useful idiots”

    Said Vronsky, to which I replied:

    “One of them is Alex Salmond, which is very unfortunate indeed”.

    In my view Salmond has failed to face up to the currency issue, so the bankers are happy. He’s committed Scotland to the EU and as a result the Scots won’t be able to reclaim their valuable fishing grounds. He’s failed to contemplate the nationalisation of the oil-fields, so the oil campanies are happy. He’s committed to retaining the monarchy and NATO membership. He calls it independence but what’s actually on offer isn’t independence at all. All the major vested interests are happy so “useful idiot” doesn’t seem inappropriate to me.

    Hope that helps, apologies for not responding earlier.

  155. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:36 pm

    Ben

    “Projection, is a much misunderstood concept.”
    _______________

    California Ben, that must be about the zillioneth time you’ve inserted a superfluous comma between the subject and verb of your “sentences”.

    Is it ignorance, is it instinctive like a dog cocking his leg at a lamp-post or have you hit on a new way of projecting one of your gnomic utterances?

    And now go and have another smoke, you know it’ll inspire you.

  156. List of the 124 Palestinians, Including Whole Families, Killed Since Tuesday

    Saturday July 12, 2014 11:16 Saed Bannoura – IMEMC News Report post

    The following is a list of the 124 Palestinians killed by Israeli air bombardment since Tuesday, July 8th. These are the names that have been confirmed by medical sources in Gaza. An estimated 900 Palestinians have also been wounded, with some losing limbs and others disabled for life. The majority of the wounded are children, according to the Ministry of Health. All of the casualties listed below are victims of Israeli bombs dropped on Gaza since Tuesday July 8th.

    http://www.imemc.org/article/68429

  157. R2D2

    Your ‘post’ at 12.32 pm merited about 3 secs of my reading time and that was 3 too many.

    You know ‘you’re not worth it’ as the ad doesn’t say!

    Any actual contributions to this blog forthcoming from you?

  158. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:49 pm

    Yes Hab,…..======================

    *******you know it’ll inspire you_______________

    ————I noe what you mean++++

    It’s very irritating.

  159. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:50 pm

    Gaza today

    I wonder if anyone would agree with me that there is a strong case to be made for indicting the Hamas leadership for war crimes and violations of international humanitarian law? War crimes against against the Palestinian people in Gaza, I mean.

    The case against the LHamas leadership is that they launch indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israel from heavily civilian-populated areas in Gaza in full knowledge of, and reckless disregard for, the reprisals which they know Israel will undertake, thereby causing many deaths, including of women and children, and much human suffering among their fellow Gazans.

    Their day will surely come!

  160. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    12 Jul, 2014 - 3:58 pm

    Hamas will have to wait in line for any war crimes to reach the surface. The ICC moves apace glacially. This hasn’t even broken the surface yet.

    “The flour mill attack was not the most serious incident of the war: although nearly 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed in just three weeks, no one died at the mill. However, because it was a civilian building producing food – the only operational mill in Gaza – the incident received particular criticism from Goldstone, who concluded that the building was hit by an air strike, the attacks were “intentional and precise”, and they were “carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population”. He added that the attacks violated the fourth Geneva convention and customary international law and may constitute a war crime.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/01/gaza-war-report-accuses-israel

  161. “What is this leading up to”

    We are being softened up for another war, obviously. As you know war is good for business and those against that are left leaning softies. Is is sad that there are so few commentators like yourself to point out the flaws in the war logic, while there are so many like Blair, Campbell and Co. who would urge us into more senseless slaughter.

    The non-existent liquid bomb threat is all part of the agenda to keep us terrified and mutually suspicious, mutual suspicion will stop us from organising. Monitoring our communications will keep the government one step ahead of the game.

    Surely it was from that sense of suspicion that led Orwell before his death to produce the list denouncing various of his contemporaries to the secret service, an act that for me forever blights his reputation.

  162. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 4:13 pm

    Habba

    The war crime Hamas undertake is in launching their rocket attacks against Israel not to mention their endorsement of suicide bombers in the past or their various human rights abuses against those Palestinian citizens who do not share their philosophy. The response by Israel goes way beyond self protection and also constitutes a war crime by any normal sense of that definition.

    I suspect that Hamas is trying to whip up things at present so as to strengthen its position within Palestine, especially given that it no longer gets much support from the Muslim Brotherhood with Egypt. Netanyahu is engaged in something similar largely because he wants to demonstrate his “strong man” credentials to those trying to outflank him on the right. The sooner this symbiotic relationship between the extremists on either side is broken the better for everyone – of course some here cannot wait for the next Intifada as they somehow believe that this sick game is the means by which they believe progress will be made, with ordinary Palestinians and Israelis just acting as dispensible pawns in their rather sick game.

  163. Mary

    For Truth and Justice

    I estimate that you must have contributed around one million comments to this blog by now, a large proportion concerned with Israel and various ideas about the Jews.

    I was wondering, could you perhaps provide us with one single comment you have made condemning Muslim violence?

    You’ll agree that Muslim violence is vastly more prevalent than Jewish violence, so it stands to reason that a self-professed human rights campaigner and believer in truth and justice will be able to produces scores of examples in response to my above question.

    Over to you.

  164. Did the USS Jimmy Carter soften up the area for an eruption and earthquake in Iceland by the USS Connecticut by hitting Japan again off Fukushima just to make sure that Tokyo stays in line too?

  165. “Did the USS Jimmy Carter soften up the area for an eruption and earthquake in Iceland by the USS Connecticut by hitting Japan again off Fukushima just to make sure that Tokyo stays in line too?”

    No.

  166. Has anybody said that Gaza was being missiled/bombed/shelled for some weeks with the pretext that Hamas was deemed guilty for the kidnapping and murder of the three illegal immigrants?

    Death might have been chosen for some of those injured. The blast injuries will be terrible as will the amputations whether by Israeli shell and shrapnel or on the operating table from necessity.

    What did the Rabbi equate one Jewish fingernail to? I think he said one thousand Arabs. No. I got it wrong. It was one million.
    http://devrolijkemoslim.blogspot.co.uk/2006/05/one-million-arabs-are-not-worth-jewish.html

  167. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    12 Jul, 2014 - 4:27 pm

    “What did the Rabbi equate one Jewish fingernail to? I think he said one thousand Arabs. No. I got it wrong. It was one million.”

    You don’t seem to understand how special the chosen people are, Mary.

  168. So it was just intended to keep the Japanese Defense Minister on track when he had his press conference with SoD Chuck Hagel minutes later.

  169. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 4:37 pm

    “What did the Rabbi equate one Jewish fingernail to? I think he said one thousand Arabs. No. I got it wrong. It was one million.”

    Hate feeds hate – nothing new I’m afraid but some still want to play their which came first, the chicken or the egg games.

  170. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 4:43 pm

    Resident Dissident

    Thanks for that.

    “The war crime Hamas undertake is in launching their rocket attacks against Israel not to mention their endorsement of suicide bombers in the past or their various human rights abuses against those Palestinian citizens who do not share their philosophy.”
    _____________________

    Actually I would only classify the first two of the above as war crimes – but war crimes NOT against Israel or Israelis but against Palestinians in Gaza. The Hamas leadership should be indicted for war crimes and violations of international humanitarian law against PALESTINIAN GAZANS, for the reasons I set out in my post at 15h50.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “The response by Israel goes way beyond self protection…”

    Yes, I agree, but it is meant to go beyond. It is meant to be dissuasive. The fact that despite previous experience the Hamas leadership is not dissuaded says more about the Hamas leadership than about the Israelis.

    ****************************

    Anyway, keep up the good work – the Eminences have either fallen silent or are in full flight.

  171. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 4:45 pm

    “So it was just intended to keep the Japanese Defense Minister on track when he had his press conference with SoD Chuck Hagel minutes later”
    ____________

    Again – no.

    Third time lucky?

  172. And this one is a nice example of the type too. Hate in their ‘hearts’.

    ‘This is what “Israel’s” right to exist means.

    “Cut off power to Gaza dialysis patients, Moshe Feiglin, Knesset deputy speaker urges

    “The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.”‘

    ~~~

    Tim Llewellyn who got out of the BBC, unable to take any more of their stuff, said on Facebook. Sent by a friend -

    Have taken the liberty of copying the contextual comment from Tim Llewellyn:

    ‘Tim Llewellyn I have a cherished picture, taken in 1998, of myself and a BBC camera crew standing alongside the crippled Sheikh Yassin, the founder and then leader of Hamas. He was a visionary Palestinian, even in his terribly depleted state. What he, and his outfit Hamas, wanted and want, quite simply, is their land, the land that Britain handed over to the Zionists between 1918 and 1948. Hamas won’t succeed probably, but it’s not a bad aspiration. Gaza, a fact the BBC hasn’t mentioned for about 20 years, is 90 per cent populated by the Arabs the British and Jews threw out in 1948.

    I was lucky, and so was the BBC camera crew, that we didn’t have to wheel Sheikh Yassin’s chair too far. This old and sick man who could hardly speak or move was bl…. into smithereens by a rocket from an Israeli Apache helicopter, sitting in his wheelchair. Those nice bodyguards would have been made dust alongside him. That’s the reality of Israel. Anyone they don’t like they kill, and John Kerry and William Hague turn over restlessly but manage to get back to sleep.’

  173. So when the USS Connecticut triggers the eruption and subsequent earthquake at Hekla, the ensuing cloud and waves coming Scotland’s way will just be seen as unexpected collateral damage!

  174. This is the entity’s very own Mr Nasty to whom that quote is attributed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Feiglin

  175. doug scorgie

    12 Jul, 2014 - 5:37 pm

    Resident Dissident
    11 Jul, 2014 – 10:39 pm

    “Did anyone notice how many Russians with past or current connections to the Putin regime were involved in the recent Tory fundraising shindig?”

    Yes we did, and…?

  176. خاله ووسو

    12 Jul, 2014 - 5:40 pm

    Good plan for all those wishing help with assisted suicide.
    Return flights offered to Islamic Caliphate in Iraq. Return flight will be taken by exchange person from Iraq looking to stay alive to see another day in the UK.

  177. doug scorgie

    12 Jul, 2014 - 5:52 pm

    Resident Dissident
    12 Jul, 2014 – 9:12 am

    “For those who still harbour any illusions about Mr Galloway”

    What illusions RD?

    Explain yourself.

  178. خاله ووسو

    12 Jul, 2014 - 5:53 pm

    Good plan for YES campaigners in Scottish Independence Vote.
    If result is NO, get Kurdistan President Barzani’s son, head of Kurdish Intelligence, USUKIS Intelligence, and leaders of three exiled Islamic groups to capture Carlisle, to get ISIS to seize Scottish oilwells and sell the oil to Israel. Then advance to Birmingham.
    If the Scots had got any brains they’d have done that long ago.

  179. خاله ووسو

    12 Jul, 2014 - 5:57 pm

  180. خاله ووسو

    12 Jul, 2014 - 6:23 pm

    Good plan for Renditioners, Paedophiles, International Expense Fiddlers and International Terrorists.

    Don’t do it, then you won’t have to be ridiculed round the world for losing all the evidence.

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/7/1299540453752/08.03.2011-Steve-Bell-on–008.jpg

  181. The western colonialists, in past, have a long history of creating religious fanatics among the followers of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism to serve their imperial designs. Since 9/11 and 7/7, Al-Qaeda is the most famous group to serve western imperialism.

    “The truth is there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al-Qaeda. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But, there is propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the ‘devil’ only in order to drive TV watchers to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US….” Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook.

    The latest “Islamic” bogey man, ISIS, according to many independent sources is nothing but an “American Apple Pie”.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/07/09/hizbullah-isis-terrorists-are-an-american-pie/

  182. According to the FBI 2006 database, 7% terrorist activities against American were carried out by Jews, while Muslims were involved in 6% terrorist activities.

    Mike to you Anon.

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

  183. Israelis eating popcorn while watching Palestinians burnt alive.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/israelis-pictured-eating-popcorn-clapping-3846801

  184. Interesting interview with Jewish jazz musician, Gilad Atzmon, who reflects as Israel goes about its latest slaughtering of the innocents gig:

    “GA: I am delighted to see that more and more people including my bitterest opponents now agree with me that there is something deeply troubling in Jewish culture and ID politics. Haaretz wrote an editorial a few days ago stating that “Israel must undergo a cultural revolution.” My bitterest Palestinian opponent, Ali Abunimah, who just recently denounced me for focusing on Jewish culture, seems to have adopted my philosophy. He now points to the morbid racism inherent in Jewish culture and politics.

    And now, after praising myself and my ‘prophetic qualities,’ let me address the question. In Hebrew, the word ‘Shalom’ doesn’t mean peace, harmony or reconciliation. It means ‘security for the Jews.’ In other words, Israel does not have a proper word for peace or reconciliation. Hence it is not surprising that Israel is not a partner in peace. It can’t even contemplate the concept.”

    http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/07/on-israeli-defeat-and-the-future-of-jewish-politics/

  185. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 7:12 pm

    @herbie

    “Haaretz wrote an editorial a few days ago stating that “Israel must undergo a cultural revolution.” ”

    Too true – but then so do the Palestinians – especially if they subscribe to your last paragraph and have such a low view of Jews/Israelis that they believe that they cannot contemplate peace.

    Mr Scorgie

    The idea was to make you think not to do the thinking for you.

  186. “And now, after praising myself and my ‘prophetic qualities,’ let me address the question. In Hebrew, the word ‘Shalom’ doesn’t mean peace, harmony or reconciliation. It means ‘security for the Jews.’ ”

    I’ve looked up the various etymologies for the word and I don’t seem to be able to find one which agrees with your definition.

  187. doug scorgie

    12 Jul, 2014 - 8:14 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    12 Jul, 2014 – 9:32 am

    “I agree that “rushing through” a bill is an UNDESIRABLE phenomenon and should not happen except in the most time-critical circumstances*.

    * an example I can think of off-hand was when an immigration bill was rushed through at the time of the expulsion of Asians from certain Eastern African countries.”

    So you agree, Habbabkuk, that the Commonwealth Immigrations Act 1968 was an example of a DESIRABLE phenomenon and rushing it through was a necessity of utmost importance.

    The Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962 had stated that citizens of the UK and Colonies holding passports issued by the UK Government had the right of entry to the UK.

    The Commonwealth Immigration Act 1968 was rushed through parliament in three days. The new legislation subjected all holders of UK passports to immigration controls unless they, their parents or a grandparent had been born, adopted or naturalised in the United Kingdom.

    The legislation was a response to thousands of Kenyan Asians arriving in the UK to flee political turmoil.

    This Act took away the right of residence.

    While the people coming from Kenya had British passports, many were not patrials.

    The 1968 Act effectively revoked British citizenship and made thousands of people stateless.

    The patrial clause in the legislation meant that people from the ‘Old Commonwealth’ countries of Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa would be less likely to be affected by the change, prompting critics of the legislation to say that it was racially biased in that it would only apply to non-white Commonwealth immigrants.

  188. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 8:31 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “Resident Dissident
    11 Jul, 2014 – 10:39 pm

    “Did anyone notice how many Russians with past or current connections to the Putin regime were involved in the recent Tory fundraising shindig?”

    Yes we did, and…?”
    ___________________

    Let me help you once more, Doug.

    Eminences on this blog regularly castigate big donors to the Tories.

    Except when those big donors are connected with the rasPutin regime.

    Then they don’t.

    Capeesh now, Doug?

  189. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 8:39 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    Faux-näif time followed rapidly by straw man time, eh, Doug?

    I’m acquainted with the 1962 and 1968 Acts but thanks for reminding me.

    “So you agree, Habbabkuk, that the Commonwealth Immigrations Act 1968 was an example of a DESIRABLE phenomenon and rushing it through was a necessity of utmost importance.”

    I’m agreeing with what I wrote in my first post, Doug. The 1968 Act was seen as time-critical and this is the reason why it was rushed through.

    What is it you don’t understand? Just put your question(sà and, as always, I’ll try and help you.

    ************************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  190. Iain

    You can see no alternative to our parliamnetary democracy that is not facism? Hilarious. You think the system we have is as good as it gets? Just one more tweak is all that is needed. Even more hilarious.

    For all your half baked pop, literary and philosophy sneering you are still stuck with writing letters you know will be ignored.

  191. Press Release from PCHR.

    Chapter and verse.

    On the 5th Day of the Offensive on the Gaza Strip, Israeli Warplanes Attack Civilian Facilities, Including Charities, Parks, Disabilities Rehabilitation Centers, Sport Clubs and Mosque, and Increasingly Target Houses
    http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10474:a&catid=36:pchrpressreleases&Itemid=194

    Saturday, 12 July 2014 00:00
    Ref: 81/2014

    114 Palestinians Killed, of Whom 94 Are Civilians, Including 26 Children and 18 Women, and 799 Others Wounded, Mostly Civilians, Including 249 Children and 165 Women;

    149 Houses Targeted and Destroyed

    ~~~

    Gaza is being flattened, again, and its people subjected to horror.

  192. technicolour

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:11 pm

    There was no sneering that I could see in Iain’s posts. What actually is your alternative, Phil? I have several, by the way, but would be most interested to hear yours.

  193. technicolour

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:19 pm

    Re: Gaza. I’m not able to do much apart from write, write to an MP, and either sing to the choir on Facebook, or inform the one person I know who seems to be rather confused about the merits of bombing a civilian population. Otherwise supporting those people inside Israel who find this as execrable as most of the UK found Iraq seems to be the only positive way to go, This is a very moving testimony:
    http://www.comhlamh.org/profile/anne-deigan-quaker-peace-social-witness-palestine/

  194. Thanks for that link Herbie to the interview with Gilad Atzmon.
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/07/on-israeli-defeat-and-the-future-of-jewish-politics/

    He is a refreshingly honest thinker and has humanity and warmth.

  195. Ex Rami Almeghari reports from Gaza

    ‘RA: As the Gaza Strip enters its eighth year of an Israeli-imposed siege and blockade that has prevented the import of basic medical supplies and medicines, Palestinian medics in Gaza are calling for immediate assistance. So far, two ambulance crew members have been injured, as ambulances have come under Israeli army fire. Dr. Ashraf al-Qidra is the spokesperson for Gaza’s health ministry.

    Dr. Ashraf al-Qidra: The type of injuries no doubt indicate that Israel has used new weapons that melt bodies. There are many holes in the bodies of dead and injured as well as dismemberment of the lower parts of the bodies, and the limbs.’

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/number-keeps-rising-dr-mona-el-farra-gaza-assault

    ~~~~~~

    Nothing would surprise me. Gaza has been used as a testing ground for new weaponry before.

  196. Cast Lead revisited. They really are a sick collection.

    This is today, not 2008/9.

    Arsalan’s link above.

    Israelis pictured eating POPCORN and clapping as they watch deadly bombardment of Gaza
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/israelis-pictured-eating-popcorn-clapping-3846801

  197. technicolour

    12 Jul, 2014 - 9:55 pm

    No, Mary, this is not representative of the Israeli people, any more than the footage spread of ‘Palestinians’ cheering at 9/11 was representative of the people in Gaza.

  198. Do you never worry about reflexively enhancing hatred, without any added psychological understanding, as a ‘peace activist’?

  199. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    12 Jul, 2014 - 10:08 pm

    Enhancing hatred with words beats the alternative.

    http://rt.com/news/172316-israel-knock-roof-video/

    “The IDF practice of firing a missile at a civilian home to warn the occupants to leave the building before a larger attack, has been caught on film. Amnesty International has decried “roof knocking,” saying it in no way constitutes an “effective warning.”

  200. Tec
    It is a representation of Zionism though. The belief that their race gives them a right to someone elses land.
    That they are some how superior.
    Zionism is the same idiology as Nazism.
    Nazism is actually a copy of Zionism, Alfred Rosenberg the founder of Nazism doesn’t make a secret of the fact he has copied Zionism when he founded Nazism.
    So what we see Zionist do in Israel is as accurate a dipiction of Zionists as concentration camps are of Nazis.
    Gaza is just one big concentration camp, and every now and then the Zionists cover it with fire as a means of reducing its population.
    Starvation is another means, we just not as humane.

  201. “Enhancing hatred with words beats the alternative”

    And how do you think that ‘alternative’ is encouraged, if not with words. It’s certainly not encouraged by the prowess of the opponents.

    Arsalan, I’ve learnt a lot from you, but the fact is that the children inside Israel don’t just ‘feel’ they have a right; they were born there. Since on both sides, the majority will want peace, we should be supporting the voices of peace.

  202. Answers Technicolour.

    1. Disagree. Israelis, by virtue of living as occupiers of another people’s land, are ALL supporting a cruel militarized entity which has no borders and knows no law. They choose to live there in the Zionist construct.

    Who said that Palestinians cheered 9/11? Thought that was Israelis in NY.

    2. Nonsense. I have seen too much of the Israelis’ actions over many years. There is no changing their lack of understanding and humanity.

    Where are you coming from btw?

    Read Gilad Atzmon’s piece.

  203. And there I was thinking you cared about children, Mary. So that six month old baby in Tel Aviv chose to live in the ‘Zionist construct’ is it?

    Who said the Palestinians cheered 9/11? The same cheesy tabloid sources you choose to quote when it suits you, Later exposed as lies – but you won’t be looking out for fakery in that Israeli story, will you?

    “Their understanding and lack of humanity”? Tell that to the Shminitsim, you hollow person. Or Uri Avnery. Or the Israeli Women in Black.

  204. Resident Dissident

    12 Jul, 2014 - 10:59 pm

    Mary

    Attributing uniform characteristics to all members of an entire nation is usually seen as one of the key attributes of racism – why don’t you think that this doesn’t apply in your case?

  205. Where are the people to run? A promise by the Israelis that Northern Gaza is going to be ‘hit hard’. An invasion is on the cards. Reservists are being called up and put in position.

    Gaza Residents Told To Leave ‘For Own Safety’
    Israel says it will hit the northern Gaza Strip hard in the next 24 hours as it steps up an offensive against Hamas militants.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1299931/gaza-residents-told-to-leave-for-own-safety

  206. Alfred Rosenberg the founder of Nazism doesn’t make a secret of the fact he has copied Zionism when he founded Nazism.

    Fact that Jabotinsky and his betar used to be parading alongside the Hitler youth bearing their swastika flag , and the zionist youth with their own flag (the lined prayer shawl depicting a minora in the middle) as the various archival photographs of the era convey.

    However in line with the current oppressive measures that none dare to even hint at such facts without the usual slurs of “antisem……” getting slung even at the contemplation of such egregious “unfacts”.

    The current onslaught of the rabid mad zionists scum on Gaza the worlds most densely populated concentration camp is explained away as;

    Hamas is instructing women and children to remain in their homes to die as Israel bombs them.

    (as seen on CNN)

    This is in line with other explanations of; Palestinian parents push their children in the path of the zionist bullets!

    Further the pernicious corruption of facts going unabated the medjia is reluctant to show the results of the thousands of explosives raining on such a densely populated concentration camp. 1m25s “

    At 1:25 of the following the attack on a beach is on a boat that belongs to that of “freedom flotilla” the boat was supposed to be used for exporting the Gaza produce for other markets.

    Not all of the strikes are on militants and buildings though. Late Thursday night a peculiar strike took place at Gaza’s marina. A boat owned by the Freedom Flotilla Coalition was the sole target.</blockquote

    This is a continuation of the systematic effort of the rabid mad zionists to extirpate the Palestinians through; a fire now and kill for many years to come policy.

    Although these facts are mere detail in the narrative regurgitated by the zionist apologist scum as only hatemongering, and not conducive to peace efforts, in an attempt to portray the victims of the rabid zionists aggression as the aggressors and anyone who stands in support with these victims to be discounted as haters and "antisem….", how far these zionist apologist scum are removed from the realities is only a singular factor that is getting reiterated with every comment these "contribute".

  207. Technicolour

    Sneering? Well he did call me a proto facist John Cleese type who aligns with Russell Brand. Not that I am in a position to complain about sneering of course.

    But anyway. Basically I hope for radical decentralisation towards an egalitarian society. Cooperation over coersion. Anarchism. That type of thing.

    What you looking for?

    Sorry in a field on a phone so won’t be able to talk as much as I would like.

  208. Reality of the Massacre in Gaza
    There are 135 Palestinians murdered by Israel so far and most of them are children, women, and the elderly. Pray for Gaza

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6bb_1405194002

  209. Mary, and apologies, I take back ‘hollow person’, but I was cross; what did you do when your own government was inflicting similar horrors beyond imagining on Baghdad? Would you feel comfortable if, say, a German, categorised you as being lacking in ‘humanity and understanding’ as a result? Is your excoriation of Israeli people as a whole guilt at having not been able to prevent something vaster but equal in insanity? I would sympathise.

    I am finding your updates and references, in a crisis, brave and useful, even if you don’t have time to check them out yourself, by the way. Thanks.

  210. Uri Avnery managed to slip this sentence into his latest piece of fine writing – The Atrocity.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/11/the-atrocity/

    ‘Under Israeli law, East Jerusalem is not occupied territory. It is a part of sovereign Israel.’

    There you have it. There is yet another Zionist exposed just as Technicolour’s true self has also been exposed.

    PS I am the very opposite of ‘hollow’ incidentally. I love the way the invective comes into play from the defenders of ‘the only democracy in the Middle East’ on these occasions. RD chimes in as per usual.

    Goodnight. I will be thinking of the people of Gaza as they face yet another night of bombardment and slaughter.

  211. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    12 Jul, 2014 - 11:24 pm

    ” It’s certainly not encouraged by the prowess of the opponents.”

    I don’t get the point.

  212. Phil, hmm, no rules, is what I see. Perhaps we will decentralise in the sense that we all realise we are a very small planet in the middle (of course) of a really quite large universe, and stretching a hand across to Ghana really takes up quite a small amount of time, in the span of human existence, even if you do it by vegetable oil powered boat.

  213. Mary, really trying to smear Uri Avnery for quoting a fact? The man who is doing this?

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html

  214. Go on, try and smear the Shministim

    http://december18th.org/

    or the Israeli Women in Black. Go on, I dare you.

  215. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    12 Jul, 2014 - 11:53 pm

    Aesalan

    “Alfred Rosenberg the founder of Nazism doesn’t make a secret of the fact he has copied Zionism when he founded Nazism.”

    Reputable source for that, please. Thanks.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=

    Fedup

    “Fact that Jabotinsky and his betar used to be parading alongside the Hitler youth bearing their swastika flag , and the zionist youth with their own flag (the lined prayer shawl depicting a minora in the middle) as the various archival photographs of the era convey.”
    _____________________

    Reputable sources and links for that, please.

    ****************

    Otherwise Mr Scorgie will get very cross with you.

  216. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    13 Jul, 2014 - 12:00 am

    I think you don’t know what you think. It’s all a muddle for you.

  217. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    13 Jul, 2014 - 1:02 am

    Talk is cheap. Actions have some legitimacy, UNHRC, ICC et al. Time for decisive and definitive acts without equivocation and ‘patience’

    http://rt.com/news/172188-israel-operation-international-law/

  218. خاله ووسو

    13 Jul, 2014 - 1:42 am

    I have a feeling that this attack on Gaza is a deliberate distraction by Israel from its other operation in Iraq.

    Sheikh Nabil Naiim stated that Israel’s ISIS forces killed 1,000 Sunnis in the manly Shi’a city of Sammarra. Here is the link again, so far no comments about it:

    http://counterinformation.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/obama-regimes-support-of-al-qaeda-and-isis/
    “Nabeel Naiem: It fights both Sunnah and Shiites, when they entered Sammerra, Sheikh Ali Hatimi, head of Anbar Tribes said: ISIS entered Sammerra and killed a thousand Sunni in cold blood.. and it kills Shiites and kills Christians and kills whoever it faces, ISIS considers all people infidels and their bloods are free.”

    You can see why the prospect of using Islam against itself is so attractive to Israel. There is a Fatwa that if someone lives alongside open wrongdoing, such as the false worship of the Shi’a rituals and does nothing to oppose them or remove themselves from living near them, then even if they are Sunni Muslim , they should be killed first.

    That’s logical because it shows utter indifference to Allah’s laws. Problem is, that some of the Jihadi Sheikhs who flew to Jordan to initiate the ISIS attacks on Iraq have lived in proximity to European decadence for up to 15 years and they are free to fly to London or Jordan but they have never succeeded in seriously opposing Western Decadence nor removing themselves from its evils.

    Sheikh Nabeel calls London a “nest of spies”. Why do the moral leaders of ISIS not apply the same laws they apply to ISIS victims to themselves. So far the only reply I have had to this link is an ugly death threat on the So Soon Forgotten thread
    last time http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/07/30/executions-at-nuremberg/ Time.

    The collaborators with Zion and moral leaders of the “Dogs of Hell” ISIS cannot bear their hypocrisy being aired on the internet.

  219. Amjad Shabita, an Israeli Palestinian activist in Israel’s Hadash Maki party introduces a harrowing account of Jewish lynch mentality on Facebook in Hebrew during the period the Israeli government was lying about the three “kidnapped Jews” and Hamas. Its following English translation was published by Nijmeh Ali, an Israeli Arab citizen.

    Fascists in a colonial regime? Is that a historical precedent?

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/07/13/israel-the-jewish-lynch-mentality/

  220. Basically, the leadership of all 3 parties have shown they have zero respect for people’s privacy, and zero respect for democratic process. And there are 600 sheep-people in parliament who will do their every bidding. It’s all rather sad really. I’ve never been fooled by David Cameron, he’s a lightweight, authoritarian prick who gets red-faced angry whenever someone says something critical. Clegg is a nobody. Ed Milliband, well I was slightly surprised, at first, he sided with Cameron on this one. However, on reflection, Ed has said basically nothing about illegal surveillance, it’s been tumbleweed all the way, so I really shouldn’t have been surprised. Ed has been vetted, like all the rest.

    And now we are hearing rumours of, basically, a corporate coup. The Trans-Pacific partnership has been organized in secret, and none of us are even allowed to see the details.It took Wikileaks to reveal a law that will affect us all; they simply refuse to let us know what the agreement is. I mean, how fucked up is that? It should be put to a referendum – where it would be roundly rejected – but evidently such thoughts are naive, in our current phase of authoritarian rule. We are just going to take what they give us, as they say in prison.

  221. @Technicolour: The Palestinians cheering on 9/11 was a great deception. The footage was in fact from Kuwait, cheering the liberation of Kuwait from Sadaam Hussein in 1991. At the time in was “unthinkable” that CNN would do such a thing. Nowadays, there are many examples of deception via mainstream media.

  222. @Brendan:

    If this blog is representative of concerned British citizens, I don’t think there is much hope of even raising a finger to stop the powers behind Cameron & Clegg doing as they please. Despite Craig’s best efforts, we just have a quick gas about it, and then go back to our favourite subject… Palestine. although what is happening out there is terrible, we are never going to help the Palestinian, or any other people, until we get democracy back in our own land.

    I don’t know who else received an email from 38 degrees, but the one I received was asking whether or not the Emergency legislation was a problem and whether they should bother with a petition (!) And this organisation was supposed to be about bringing back democracy…

    I can’t believe that I’m having to say this but if we aren’t happy we all need to write to our MPs about this. If we wish to have any effect at all, we should avoid electronic media and go back to traditional means of communication… that will at least give them something physical to think about. We should also hold demonstrations outside constituency offices, but we need to act, not just talk, and should not expect the mainstream media to support our cause, because they are the cheerleaders of this apparent rush to a snooped on society.

  223. Sorry you felt unable to continue with the dialogue between us about the theme of this blog, Habby. From my side it was genuine debate with no hidden agenda.

    I’ll try once more though. What do you think of this statement by a real eminence, the President of the Law Society?…

    “We are concerned that introducing emergency legislation does nothing to enhance the rule of law or address the fact that we are increasingly becoming a ‘surveillance society’. The history of emergency legislation is not exemplary, with laws being used for purposes for which they were not intended. Today’s news is particularly worrying, given the emergency legislation will go against a court judgment on human rights.

    “There needs to be a public debate about how to strike the right balance between security, freedom and privacy. We need to simplify and clarify a complex and confusing legal framework and ensure that it protects human rights.”

  224. @ Peacewisher

    “I can’t believe that I’m having to say this but if we aren’t happy we all need to write to our MPs about this. If we wish to have any effect at all, we should avoid electronic media and go back to traditional means of communication…”

    Yup. And I have to say, I’m no fan of petitions. If someone wants to sign one, fair enough, but I don’t think any Government gives a flying. I suppose at best it gives a sense of strength of feeling (as in the reaction to a potential Syria invasion), but the good old fashioned way of writing to MP’s, and going on demo’s strike me as a better option. If nothing else, demos interrupt traffic, so get some attention.

    As to Palestine, it’s a good barometer of how screwed our own democracy is. Basically, Israel pulverizes Gaza, and almost nobody in parliament says a word. Collective parliamentary shrug. This is just weird. It’s not even a fair fight, it’s a massacre, and I’m led to believe that massacre’s breach all sorts of international laws, and are bad. Well, they used to be bad. Perhaps they are good now, and I’m mistaken.

    And, that idiot Cameron. I shake my head in disbelief almost every time he opens his mouth. How that lord of nong is PM is beyond me. They should give Craig the gig. Might be a bit jolly on the sauce sometimes, and cause the odd diplomatic incident now and again, but I’d vote for him. Especially if he told Karimov to go fuck himself. That would be a chuckle.

  225. Technicolour

    No rules? Vegetable boats?

    To be honest I haven’t got a clue what you are saying.

    Just in case: anarchism does not mean “no rules”. This is a common misconception from those who know nothing about it. Anarchism requires rules. It requires self reliance and self discipline. Anarchism is about minimising the ability of individuals to coerce others.

    Anarchism does not have a lot to say about vegetable boats. Except at a stretch: locally sourced power is good. And I am not aware of any huge vegetable oil war boats. Maybe you are on to something. Which is much better than a rosé sneer.

  226. This caps it all.

    BLiar on YNet News.

    Tony Blair – A ‘Peace Envoy’ or an Israeli Ambassador? (must watch)
    By Gilad Atzmon

    Tony Blair is not a Sabbath Goy, he actually works for Israel 24/7.

    In this shameless performance on Ynet (11/7/2014), Israel’s most popular media outlet, Blair misses an opportunity to communicate with Israelis and explain to them for the first time the context in which the conflict is taking place. Blair obviously prefers not to upset the Israelis. Bearing in mind the scale of the crimes Blair committed in Iraq on behalf of Israel and the Jewish Lobby, it is understandable. Israel is probably the only country that is willing to give him a shelter.

    Apparently, in the last seven years, Peace Envoy Tony Blair has visited Gaza only once.

    Posted July 12, 2014

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39062.htm

    I could stomach only 3 mins of the 13 mins.

  227. “The Palestinians cheering on 9/11 was a great deception. The footage was in fact from Kuwait, cheering the liberation of Kuwait from Sadaam Hussein in 1991.”

    Strange that they should be waving a Palestinian flag and that the distinctive Kuwait headdresses are conspicuous by their absence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

  228. Technicolour

    Attempting to improve on my par above:

    Anarchism does not mean “no rules”. Anarchism requires rules. But rules agreed by everyone they apply to rather than rules imposed by an elite few. Anarchism is about minimising the ability of individuals to coerce others. It prioritises cooperation over coersion.

    And it does not require a fluffy wonderland where no one is a nutter. Anarchism has mechanisms to minimise the ability of nutters to run amock. I think that this is in fact the one of the main reasons we should look at it. Our current system seems to reward nutters with positions ruling over us.

  229. Given that the oppression in Palstine would end tomorrow if the US wanted, given that the US state is the power that has enabled decades of slaughter it is hardly surprising even if a few Palestinians did cheer 911.

  230. Shouldn’t discussions about Palestine be on the relevant thread from a few days ago?

  231. Interesting that Kempe, quick as a flash, had those links up his sleeve.

    I would not believe anything Fox News produces, nor the word of CNN. Remember the fake palm trees in the studio?

    CNN Fake Newscast Best Quality
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWY14eyMFg
    LOL

  232. How about this from the BBC’s Mark Urban retweeted by Aaronovitch?

    Retweeted by David Aaronovitch
    Mark Urban @MarkUrban01 · 13h
    Hamas just tried a big strike on Tel Aviv. Are they goading Israel to see if it has guts for ground op in Gaza? Both sides playing with fire.

    Urban’s loving it. More war and killing. He can get his magic pen and charts out on Newsnight.

    ~~

    Aa’s own tweets in which he reveals his prejudice about Hamas. Predictable of course.

    Chris Gunness of UNWRA starts off.

    https://twitter.com/ChrisGunness/status/488071860001972225

    Good challenges there from a Mark Doran.

  233. What do we think it’s leading up to, then?

    There were preparations on the London tube system before the bombs went off on 7/7 too.

    The vile Ban Ki-Moon, UN Secretary-General, has said that there is a risk of an “all-out escalation” in Gaza, and that the Arabs in Gaza must stop defending themselves.

    (In his Zionist terms, “Hamas must stop firing rockets”).

    Meanwhile the moderated comments on the Jerusalem Post website contain exhortations to turn Gaza into glass.

    In case anyone doesn’t understand what that means, that means a nuclear attack, which causes enough heat to fuse sand into glass.

    With the ‘new’ government in Teheran, the Sharon doctrine – based on Netanyahu’s replacement for the East-West arms race (the ‘war on terror’) and focused on Iran (any problem for the Zionist entity is a problem for the world) – looks as though it is in the process of being updated.

  234. “Interesting that Kempe, quick as a flash, had those links up his sleeve.

    I would not believe anything Fox News produces, nor the word of CNN. ”

    There was a gap of nearly four hours between Peacewisher’s post and mine. Hardly quick as a flash even at my age.

    The footage was shot by Reuters and syndicated to CNN, Fox and other outlets.

  235. “In case anyone doesn’t understand what that means, that means a nuclear attack, which causes enough heat to fuse sand into glass.”

    Considering nowhere in Gaza is more than 7 miles from Israel and the destruction zone of even a small atomic bomb has about a 30 mile radius I think we can safely assume those are just idle threats.

  236. @Kempe:

    That may be the case, but it wasn’t the original footage shown by CNN after 9/11, which was obviously pulled out of the archives for purposes that soon became apparent – deflect the blame from the incompetent Bush to those wicked ragheads…

    BBC has being using archived footage as well in recent years, which is again deception and undermining democracy. We have to see it, and say it, as it is… however unpalatable it may seem

  237. “We have to see it, and say it, as it is… however unpalatable it may seem”

    Which is precisely what Kempe was doing.

    You were the one saying it how it wasn’t.

  238. Was my reply to Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) deleted?
    If so what was wrong with it?

    Anyway, read The Myth of 20th century man by Alfred Rosenberg,
    Where he discribes how he constructs Nazism.
    I don’t think you need to though. Taking a look at both idiologies is enough to see that they are one and the same.

  239. The interview from Israel was indeed disgusting and like you I had to stop it ..he looks and sounds like a ventriloquists dummy Mary

    Just over one year ago this article by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya appeared in Global Research: Are the Boston Marathon bombings tied to a New American Campaign into the Caucasus?

    Since false flag events become credible for what they are with hindsight and their purpose ultimately reveals itself has the time come? Not only was the Boston fake bomb event a practice for the imposition of martial law with civil liberties suspended while the man hunt was underway but did it serve another purpose? Is its main purpose now revealing itself?
    And of course the UKs emergency data law will be justified by such false flag events as the comical headless dummy and very very tragic and not faked bombing of the underground. The shameful public memorial was defaced this week

    The slogans, including “Blair Lied Thousands Died”, “4 Innocent Muslims” and “J7 Truth”, were stencilled onto the 11.5-foot (3.5-metre) columns in red and black paint.

    http://ngrguardiannews.com/news/world-news/169721-london-bombings-memorial-vandalised-on-ninth-anniversary

  240. Phil; I remember reading Anarchy & Order rather belatedly: it felt as though Reid had been looking over my shoulder and written down what I’d been thinking since about the age of 5 (rather more eloquently, however). Read the Secret Life of Plants at around the same time: it was an interesting week for books. Thank you for your thoughtful definition. I still prefer guidelines to rules, mind you. And decentralistion, I think, should be a very good thing, although of course a small community can be as corrupt, wasteful and bullied as a large one (hence the guidelines). And, I’ve found, understandably inward-looking, hence my diverting to muse on the real situation of the planet.

    Mary, you seem to be blithely brushing over your attempt to smear Uri Avnery and your suggestion that all people in Israel, even the children, are somehow to blame. You therefore appear to be the mirror image of the extremists you hold up for horror. Quite unforgettable.

  241. I am not smearing Avnery. At the root of it, he is a . Stop putting words into my mouth.

  242. Even the writer of that article attacking Avnery omits children from the list of those to blame, unlike you. Even the writer of that article ends by quoting Avnery and his desire for “Israel to be a state belonging to all its citizens, without distinction of ethnic origin, gender, religion or language; with completely equal rights for all”. Even the writer of that article ends by concluding that Avnery may have the right idea.

    Going back to your attempt to demonise the whole of the Israeli population: anything to say about the Shministim? Anything to say about the Israeli Women in Black? Anything to say about the majority who did not vote for Likud? Anything to say about people who were born there? No?

  243. @Fred

    Considering nowhere in Gaza is more than 7 miles from Israel and the destruction zone of even a small atomic bomb has about a 30 mile radius I think we can safely assume those are just idle threats.

    You are mistaken. The destruction zone in Hiroshima didn’t go out anywhere near that far, and nuclear weapons can be far smaller than the one they dropped on Hiroshima, called “Little Boy”. Take a look here.

    Nukes go down to about 10-20 tonnes of TNT equivalent. Little Boy had a yield about 1000 times bigger, at 16 kilotonnes. For scale, the highest-yielding nukes ever built go up to about 3000 times bigger still, at 50 megatonnes.

    The Zionists also have the neutron bomb.

    It’s not just moderated comments at the Jerusalem Post. Avigdor Lieberman, the Zionists’ current Foreign Minister and probable next Prime Minister, has threatened to nuke Gaza before.

    Remember that nowadays most wars have big propaganda value. The Zionists do not want peace, any more than the Nazis did.

    Google – surprise surprise – has openly taken sides in this massacre.

  244. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 1:24 pm

  245. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 1:28 pm

    “We’re part of a club, and we paid a very expensive membership fee to get in,” said Rami Elhanan, an activist with the Parents Circle, which includes both Israeli and Palestinian families who have lost loved ones to the conflict. His daughter Smadar was killed in a suicide bombing in 1997.

    “We are not going to let them use our pain to enlarge this club,” he said.

    Elhanan pointed out the other dozen activists — this one lost a mother, this one a brother, this one a son.

    “Every one of the people here has on their back a very heavy weight,” he said. “We paid that price and we know how important it is not to have other people join.”

  246. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 1:31 pm

    Protests took place in Boston, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and San Francisco, among other cities, according to Rabbi Alissa Wise, a a member of the group’s rabbinic council. Jewish Voice for Peace is allied with the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement against Israel.

    Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/07/11/news-opinion/united-states/protests-blame-israel-for-escalating-violence-call-for-boycotts#ixzz37LqqJpt9

    http://www.jta.org/2014/07/11/news-opinion/united-states/protests-blame-israel-for-escalating-violence-call-for-boycotts

  247. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 1:34 pm

    The attempt of Netanyahu to use the deaths of the Israeli teens as the pretext for stepped up aggression against the Palestinians, and the racist agitation of pro-settler elements, prompted some 3,000 mostly young Israelis to stage a rally for peace and tolerance on [July 2]. The rally was organized by Tag Meir, a pro-peace coalition of 43 organizations. USA Today quoted one of the participants, Jonah Clarfield, 25, as saying, ‘This is a response to the racist march that took place last night.’ Marchers held hand-made posters reading, ‘We Are All Human Beings’ and ‘Light, Not Terror.’

    http://my.firedoglake.com/lauraw/2014/07/07/israeli-voices-for-peace/

  248. N_, that app was developed by RustyBrick.com, not Google. RustyBrick develop for iOS and Android as well. Google’s development method makes use of a lot of contributions, so which apps get developed is down to the contributors, not Google.

    Someone developed a drone-strike app for iOS; it would show the locations of drone-strikes in real time. Apple refused to host it in their App Store.

  249. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 1:38 pm

    Hilleli, Women of Peace: “We believe that this cycle of violence must be ended, and it’s definitely not going to be ended by more violence and by more bombs on Gaza, and it’s not going to help the people in the south and neither the people in Tel Aviv that have been subject to missiles in the past few days.”

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/10/headlines

  250. Technicolour, your points illustrate another aspect of propaganda; I expect Phil will agree here – our corporate news frequently repeat the official Israeli narrative (usually without challenge), but where are the reports of protest from within Israel? Remember when the Occupy protests began, there was a huge camp in Israel; it was reported a bit, but somehow it seemed to be dealt with separately from the rest of Occupy and then it was just forgotten. I don’t even know what became of it.

    Failure to report popular Israeli opposition to Israeli government policy contributes to the impression that all Israelis are racist – so the corporate media contributes to divide and rule, as usual.

  251. there will be peace one day, and that would be when what causes war ends.
    What causes wars is the racist state of Israel.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUttX5r40uw

  252. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 2:01 pm

    Clark, yes, of course, thanks. One would hope that people who are au fait with the internet and message boards and so on would look beyond the corporate media, rather than just seek to reinforce hate and prejudice, but.

    Occupy another striking example, I agree. It was global – from Japan to New Zealand. But it was silenced, and crushed.

  253. It must be really frustrating to be a progressive Israeli activist. Ignored by all sides and dismissed as hopelessly contaminated, non-existent or a contradiction-in-terms by non-Israeli activists.

  254. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 2:08 pm

    Right, Arsalan. So all the wars which happened before the creation of israel were just – what, exactly?

  255. Phil at 12 July 8.58 pm: You have the knack of using the right bait to get a rise out of me – attributing to me language and values that I have not used or espoused. From false assumptions just about anything can be deduced. However, let’s look at your suggestion that I am “stuck with writing letters you know will be ignored”. If I accepted that the minimal criterion for writing to my MP being a useful activity was that she reads it – far less acts on it – you would be right. Indeed, I have sufficient experience of parliamentary letter-writing (myself and others) to consider it unlikely that Tessa Jowell will read my letter. However, what makes the activity marginally useful (more useful than sticking pins into a Tessa Jowell doll, even though that might be of mild therapeutic value; but less useful than exchanging views with you here on creating a better political system) is that far more is involved than engaging Tessa’s eyes or brain.

    First, sending the letter to my MP means that I am responding positively to a general Liberty request to campaign on the issue of this “emergency” legislation; and to a specific request from a good friend who shared the letter he had sent his MP. It’s part of social bonding and it also makes me engage with the issue more seriously than if I were simply to say: “Just what I’d have expected of this lot, but nothing I can do will make any difference”. Second, the effort of making the letter a personal one, rather than just topping and tailing the one my friend copied to me meant I was able to develop a point that is often overlooked – that collecting email mega-data is not adapting to a new technologies but is abusing them to snoop in ways that would never be acceptable, morally or legally, with snail mail. That’s useful for me – getting my thoughts sorted out – even if I never sent the letter to Tessa.

    Third, having sent the letter, blind copied it to friends who share my concerns about this legislation, and later copied it to this blog, I have made sure that even if Tessa does not read it, someone on her staff will as will others who can then improve, amplify or disagree with my arguments. I may not have snared Tessa as a reader, but I have snared two who matter far more to me than her – the friend who urged me to send a letter and you, dear Phil, who urged me to recognize the uselessness of doing so.

    There’s a final useful outcome. I now have the opportunity to invite you, before all these witnesses here, to pen three suggestions for useful actions by those of us who wish to discredit this legislation and render it inoperable and an albatross around the necks of MPs who support it even if the legislation gets approval from this rump parliament.

    There, an open goal – I’m sure you can score a hat-trick well before the match starts this evening. For a gifted forward like you, delivering philippics on target is why you are so valuable for the FC Utopia team.

  256. Technicolour, I feel sorry for Mary in this. Her attitudes appear to me to have hardened, but anyone’s would have under the sustained barrage of personal abuse, distortion and innuendo she’s been subjected to for years here on this blog. Someone even posted a comment under her name on the Stormfront fascist website, then linked to it here; various critics of Mary treated it as genuine. And even you, Technicolour, recently criticised comments from Mary as anti-Jewish, but didn’t mention more offensive anti-Muslim comments from Jemand which were just above it…

    …on which basis I could leap on the “Technicolour is Hasabra” bandwagon which has also been proposed on these threads – the flip side of the “Mary is anti-Semitic” bandwagon. But I oppose such polarisation as unproductive, a microcosmic element of those human traits that tend to escalate conflict. I prefer the model that, in each case, certain dynamics led to certain behaviours, because this model is susceptible to change, whereas “such-and-such is a bad person / are bad people” perpetuates distrust and animosity.

    If we can’t get on with each other amicably here on these threads, what hope for resolving any entrenched conflict?

  257. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    13 Jul, 2014 - 2:51 pm

    Mary mentioned the high blood pressure Highlander who was ranting on Question Time on Thursday. He screamed that he was prepared to “lay down his life in defence of the Union,” which of course has received much publicity in the media, including from the Scottish Daily Record.
    However there’s a comment from a member of the audience below the Record article:

    “As a member of the Audience, I witnessed first hand how this bloke was used by BBC. They had chance to get rid of him in the dummy run we had before the panel came on…The subject was making some drugs legal…..The highlander , with a twist of irish accent did a 3min rant referring to hell,jesus,etc……myself and my partner , and the rest of Audience were expecting him to be thrown out.Never happened, and then he gets Air time twice…?….Reason,because he was spouting about being British….”

  258. ‘Mary, you seem to be blithely brushing over your attempt to smear Uri Avnery and your suggestion that all people in Israel, even the children, are somehow to blame.’

    Technicolour’s conclusion is (for once) spot-on here. It is unforgivable of Mary to suggest that, simply by stating the facts about Israeli law and East Jerusalem, Avnery is simply a ‘Zionist’ to be lumped in with the likes of Netanyahu or Leiberman.

  259. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    13 Jul, 2014 - 2:53 pm

  260. Iain Orr, 2:13 pm: thanks for that. One of my contributory skills in this world (“gainful employment” to you, Anon) is making people’s computers work right, so that they can reliably manipulate information. Thank you for describing how manipulation of information can affect the influences upon people in a structure.

  261. “You are mistaken. The destruction zone in Hiroshima didn’t go out anywhere near that far, and nuclear weapons can be far smaller than the one they dropped on Hiroshima, called “Little Boy”. ”

    I don’t think so, even small nukes produce a lot of radioactive dust. The Israeli government would not risk it raining strontium 90 onto Tel Aviv. No government would use nuclear weapons so close to their own inhabited areas.

  262. [craigmurray.org.uk - your comment is linked here:]

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/07/the-absence-of-liberalism/comment-page-1/#comment-466225

    Hmmmm?????

    The following, which was I am pretty near darned certain, earlier positioned in this thread circa 12 Jul, 2014 – 11:58 am, appears to have been spirited away/been disappeared. Such tells us all what you should really know, for it be hard core fact rather than soft porn fiction?

    Or maybe I was mistaken. Oh well, let’s see if we can learn more with another try and trial submission of a tale with red hot trails which burn like hell if denied, Craig, for such denials would be from those not in the loop and completely unaware of planes of future events, dear boy, and planned future eventing.

    Why is the fear ratchet being screwed right up just now? What is this leading up to?… craig

    The herd of stampeding elephants in the room, Craig, are intelligence services flexing new muscles and field testing IT Virtual Power Control. Or are y’all here of the opinion that established and Establishment spooky default services are as cowed cuckolds and mindlessly status quo dependent rather than rapid and even rabidly active and extremely stealthy revolutionary independent special operation forces?

    And whoever would one ask to know, and for it to be, however plausibly, implausibly denied, for as is being increasingly recognised and discussed here, is the System rattled by something way beyond both its practical and virtually remote command and control.

    amanfromMars 1 Sat 12 Jul 06:56 [1407120656] commenting on http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/07/10/google_ventures_opens_new_fund_in_london/

    Condor Flight Path for Vulture Rich Pickings/Rich Vulture Sit-Ins/Venture Capitalisation

    It has long been known, Martin S, that practise makes perfect and perfect is great practice and for Glorious Command Head Quarters and Remote Vital Virtual and Virile Virtuous Control of Global Operating Devices, on and in Dark Web Enterprises with Black Watch AIdVenturers, is it IT Par for every course.

    Is any and every bet and event move, which can be in any way perceived as being against and in aggressive negative competition to, rather than in simple surreal support with and sublime encouragement of, SMARTR Virtual Machines and InterNet Working Infrastructures …. ITs XSSXXXXoSkeleton ……. a crushing hammer blow to failing dumb systems and corrupted perverse executive administrative persons of particular and peculiar interest and/or waned influence?

    And would such be a Front Facing AI in the Virtual Field and CyberSpace Place and Forward Operating Base of MIComplexIT only the Dire Rich and Retarded Foolhardy would Dare 42 Win Win against in order to Fail Fundamentally and Crash Catastrophically in CHAOS ….. Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems ……. Astute Active Alien Systems of Operation with Exotic and Erotic Universally Attractive and Addictive Projects for Man Management in a Reputable ReProgramming of Heavenly Assets and Earthly Bodies/Persons and Agencies?

    Take Care, IT’s a Mined Mind Field out there ……

    A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

    Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

    Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

    This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

    Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.

    In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

    Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

    The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present

    and is gravely to be regarded. ….. Dwight D. Eisenhower, 34th President of the United States

    PS …. Condor is four strokes under par and therefore in the context used above an incredibly fast track to that which is chased and called wealth by both the many and the few.

  263. OldMark, 2:51 pm; I doubt Mary objects to “Under Israeli law, East Jerusalem is not occupied territory”, which is a simple statement of fact. But the next bit, “It is a part of sovereign Israel”, is open to interpretation; I take it that Avnery here continues to speak on behalf of Israeli law, as would be explicit had Averny continued with a comma. But Averny used a full stop and a capital letter, so “[East Jerusalem] is a part of sovereign Israel” can be read as Averny’s own opinion, and it seems that Mary interpreted it that way.

    The brutal ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the ongoing Israeli abuse of Palestinians have made Zionism a dirty word. In principle, Zionism should seem no better or worse than other nationalism movements.

  264. Clark – the link you sent Phil at 3.11pm contains ideas (allowing for a few typos in its text)applicable to many disciplines and activities besides systems engineering. Education, health, foreign policy, economics, journalism and all forms of political activism should take account of this positive insight:

    “16 Any small unit committed to qualitative action can affect radical change on a scale outside its quantitative measure.”

    Visions and values are the weapons to use to combat the trigger-happy – and internally unstable- world of quantitative targets.

  265. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 4:09 pm

    Well, Clark, I appreciate the need to share and exchange views, which is why I took back the word ‘hollow’ and asked Mary to shine a light on why she would blame an entire population, including children, for the atrocities perpetrated by its minority government. I’d like her response.

    As for tackling Jemand’s latest anti-Muslim witters, I don’t bother reading him any more (it’s rather harder to avoid reading Mary, I find). If, however, you look back at the merry abuse I’ve had from him in the past, you’ll note that it’s because I’ve challenged his views/’facts’ before.

    AmanfromMars – I saw that post.

  266. Technicolour, sorry, I didn’t mean to seem critical of you. Rather, I’m trying to highlight that often, interpretations are unjustified by the information that suggested them, that we are all prone to such errors of magnification and oversimplification, and this simple human tendency, so common that we don’t even notice it, generates the seed-crystals of conflict, some of which grow to global proportions.

  267. technicolour

    13 Jul, 2014 - 4:58 pm

    Clark, that’s fine – I agree.

  268. there will be peace one day, and that would be when what causes war ends.
    What causes wars is the racist state of Israel.

    The writing is on the wall so far as the future goes, but the supremacist scum are the last ones to notice what is going on.

    Over the past seventy years, since the start of the bastard estate of zionistan, which was constituted to be the private clearing gateway for a certain house of banksters whom we dare not to mention in case we are labelled as “antisemi…”. As well as keeping the natives down for the benefit of the rest of the privateers (oil and resources) whom own the puppets that are selected to be elected to run the masses (keep them down too, albeit in varying degrees of intensity).

    The zionist apologists scum have been in overdrive mode bombarding the threads with their “hasbara by numbers” ranging from the very crude as in the case of the dancing Palestinians on 9/11 that carries such enlightened commentary;

    Comptown SurSide 1 month ago

    Fuck the Palestines, so glad that Israel bomb the shit out of them, God Bless America and Israel

    In response to a purported close camera shot package of at most twenty people (Arabs in some place holding a hand drawing of a Palestinian flag) celebrating something/some event, however the commentary puts it as celebrating the 9/11 attacks, and it was as seen on the telly, so must be true!

    To the more subtle; highlighting the peace activist and the various other positive aspects of some of the residents of zionistan. This then is used as a leverage to cut slack for the mad rabid zionists to accommodate their genocidal, land theft and regular massacre of the Palestinians, because hate will not solve anything!

    Finally the whataboutry kicking in, to defend he indefensible mad rabid zionists and their ongoing crimes against peace, and against humanity.

    The simple fact is, the slow destruction of the nation of Palestine that has been afoot for the last seventy years, somehow as ever is projected as the aggression and hatred of these subhuman Arabs who are intent in pushing the zionists into the sea!!!

    This is in line with the other pearls of wisdom;

    In he face of US forces killing 4 million Vietnamese; men, women, children, and infants, who were classed as gooks and Vietcong. William Westmoreland explained it away as; “The Oriental doesn’t put the same high price on life as does a Westerner. Life is plentiful. Life is cheap in the Orient.”

    Banastre Tarleton stood up in Parliament and pontificated that Africans did not object to being slaves.

    President William McKinley believed and said so; little brown Filipinos appreciated being conquered and dominated.

    Dehumanisation of the victims by the oppressors has always been a keystone policy in garnering sympathy for the mass murder and destruction of the target group by the aggressors and oppressors.

    Further, anyone disagreeing with such a filthy policy is then classed as trouble maker, and so far in this blog everyday one or the other of the zionist apologists scum ask why such an emphasis on Palestine? Fact that such a line of questioning is contrary to principles of the freedom of expression is never entertained. Evidently freedom of expression is what we are allowed and encouraged to express, as the good rabbi put it; you cannot run into a full theatre and shout fire!

    Note the simplistic allegories and lessons!

  269. Technicolour, further, our human tendency to polarise like this, to close ranks and identify an external enemy, and then to interpret their behaviour as hostile, increases when we are ourselves attacked, and Mary has suffered extended verbal attack from Habbabkuk and the bandwagon he started. That’s the same Habbabkuk who attempted to wind up the visiting Israeli Oneil.

    “Let’s all you lot fight – and especially fight her” says Habbabkuk, so I excuse Mary preferentially and wish her strength, especially now with Israel again bullying Gaza. And I also endorse your advice and, like Phil, urge Mary to reconsider; to recognise and resist incitement to polarisation and side-taking, and acknowledge and respect well-motivated activists who happen to be Israeli – which I suspect she does to some extent anyway.

  270. Resident Dissident

    13 Jul, 2014 - 6:37 pm

    “urge Mary to reconsider; to recognise and resist incitement to polarisation and side-taking”

    Best of luck with that one.

    As an experiment Clark might I suggest you keep a count of who is undertaking the personal verbal attacks.

  271. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    13 Jul, 2014 - 6:49 pm

    Absolutely agree with Resident Dissident at 18h37 above.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Two further comments:

    1/. Clark, please drop your hand-wringing, fake “honest broker” posture; you’re a fully paid-up member of the Egregiousness of Excellences and fool no-one.

    2/. Things have reached a new low when Mary uses Israel Shamir in an attempt to rubbish Uri Avnery. Check the two of them out on Wikipedia and Counterpunch and make up your own minds.

  272. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    13 Jul, 2014 - 7:00 pm

    “As an experiment Clark might I suggest you keep a count of who is undertaking the personal verbal attacks.”

    As a percentage, I would say your side has the edge similar to the lop-sided retribution in Gaza. What is it now; 100 to 1?

  273. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    13 Jul, 2014 - 9:56 pm

    California Ben

    ““As an experiment Clark might I suggest you keep a count of who is undertaking the personal verbal attacks.”

    As a percentage, I would say your side has the edge similar to the lop-sided retribution in Gaza. What is it now; 100 to 1?”
    _____________________

    You must have written that after quite a few smokes, Ben.

    How many?

    Can you still count them for us?

  274. Iain
    “I now have the opportunity to invite you, before all these witnesses here, to pen three suggestions for useful actions by those of us who wish to discredit this legislation and render it inoperable and an albatross around the necks of MPs who support it even if the legislation gets approval from this rump parliament.”

    I have no suggestions as to how you can render this legislation inoperable. It seems a done deal. Nothing you or I can do will make a blind bit of difference to the outcome next week. My beef is that letter writing is buying into the illusion that we can do something. Thereby abrograting ourselves of the need to actually do something possibly more usefull.

    My opening comment on this thread countered Craig’s anger at Clegg’s betrayal by pointing out this has been going on for a long time indeed. Not years, not decades, but centuries. Well meaning social democrats have been lobbying the psycopaths who run their favourtite party to not be so nasty. To no avail. Now we not only continue to slaughter the poor and all other species, we face several existential threats. It is time to consider something new.

    So although I have no short term immediate solution to this particular legislation I can recommend a long term prescription for what ails us. Radical decentralisation. Anarchism. We need to stop expecting remote elites to make decisions about our lifes. We, the majority of good people, need to restrain psycopaths with a more direct democracy, not put them in palaces.

    I am a little drunk in a big field so this is less coherent than it might hasve been. Anyway I am not sure how laced with sarcasm your comment was but I err on the side of dialogue in my attempts to be less angry. Clark and Node are to blame for my attempts at being reasonable.

    I had to look up “philippics”. Made me laugh.

  275. Clark

    Sorry, I am not overly inspired by the Fripp list. I don’t get it.

    “16 Any small unit committed to qualitative action can affect radical change on a scale outside its quantitative measure.”

    I fundamentally reject the elitism of this. Well meaning vanguardism soon becomes the new establishment. Lenin and Trotsky might have made this point 16.

    The only gig I actually really fell asleep in was a frippotronics show. I was very tired but still.

    Perhaps only popular change can be radical.

  276. Phil, that was lovely. And Iain is too. By agreeing with both of you I feel I am encompassing dualism and transcending it to the Tao. Thanks, chaps.

  277. In fact, and more considerately, this is all a process, and an incremental one, at that. I don’t mean responding to urgencies like Gaza and Syria, but generally. I am struck by the fact that in the UK ‘revolution’ is mainly a terrifying, destructive word, used by people who talk about it with a general acceptance of inevitable bloodshed, whereas in Germany, the word ‘revolution’ means a gradual turning of the wheel in a forwards and positive direction.

  278. Clark@3.36

    Avnery’s construction ‘part of sovereign Israel’ in relation to East Jerusalem is certainly over egging it. Reading it in the context of the whole article, I took this to be a rhetorical flourish on his part. He seems especially outraged that the atrocity happened on territory over which Israel claims sovereignty. I think he would have been less surprised (if equally disgusted) if the atrocious act had occurred in Hebron or Ramallah.

    In the end,it was Mary’s refusal to acknowledge the existence of ‘good Israelis’, such as Avnery, and her subsequent refusal to retract that sentiment, that so riled me.

  279. @Clark – Thanks for the info on that application, of which I was unaware.

    But Google is certainly Zionist.

    I am reading Steven Levy’s book at the moment.

    Google is a big story, perhaps even in a sense THE big story waiting to blow, even if maybe it never will. I’m hoping (but not expecting) that there will be some Snowden-Greenwald material on it. They’ve sent cameras down everyone’s fucking street for goodness sake. They vans carrying the cameras have also been caught snooping on other parts of the EM spectrum than visible light.

    It’s interesting that it’s Germany, which recently caught two US spies and threw out the head of the Berlin CIA station, which has kicked up a little bit of fuss. As far as I am aware, the British government did fuck-all even when Google pissed off the SAS by snooping on its Hereford barracks!

    Google is on public record as planning for a world of mass microchip implantation and a microphone in every ceiling. (There is no need for anyone to ask me to post sources. They are very easy to find.) This is not “lizards” or “Alex Jones” stuff at all.

    Meanwhile ‘conspiracy’ people concentrate on other interests as if they were writing fanfic.

    I’m reminded of the Finbarr Saunders and his Double Entendres strip in the Viz. For those whose literary tastes lie elsewhere: the eponymous teenager imagines his mother and her boyfriend are making sexual references when they aren’t; and then when they eventually really do make some, he’s oblivious and doesn’t notice!

  280. There are no “good Israelis” if that means Israelis who support the existence of the state of Israel. Talking about Israeli “sovereignty” is not a rhetorical flourish. I didn’t realise there was anything in the hasbara manuals about what to do when you’re on your back foot. There are some “good Israelis” if the phrase includes the very very small number of people who carry Israeli passports with “Jewish” recorded as their “ethno-religious” group and who want the end of the state of Israel. That’s the dividing line: for or against the existence of the ethnic-supremacist entity.

  281. N_, much of Google’s code development is based upon community contribution. This can be seen as Google freeloading upon young programmers. But Google did used to release under free and open-source licenses, and thus we got important software that’s open to public scrutiny such as Android version 2 and Google Chrome. They’ve taken some retrograde steps with Android 3, though this may well reflect pressure from ‘phone manufacturing companies:

    http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/sep/19/android-free-software-stallman

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/20/stallman_on_android/

    As to microchips implanted in our brains; I’d consider such technology so long as I knew I could trust it. Wonderful; no more typing, just “think” text onto the page. No more squinting and peering at screens through my failing and unmatched eyes…

    But the big issue is trust, and that can only be achieved through transparency. I’d only consider a brain-Internet interface if all the hardware and software were fully disclosed, and Google is a leader in disclosure of technology.

    Google and Wikipedia are often criticised for supporting Israel; Google for its search results and Wikipedia for bias in articles. The phenomena is well understood among Wikipedia editors who have to deal with it; the bias is in the corporate media, from which Google search results and Wikipedia articles are constructed – you can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear. Sure, there are plenty of Wikipedia editors who are Hasbara, but it’s easy to spot their activity in the article histories. Rather than moaning about pro-Israeli influence on Wikipedia, people should get in there and edit it, as it their (and Hasbara’s) right.

    I maintain a reservoir of suspicion for Google because it has become such an influential company. So far, Google’s ethics don’t seem particularly bad to me, but I’m going to keep watching.

  282. Phil, 13 Jul, 10:50 pm:

    “16 Any small unit committed to qualitative action can affect radical change on a scale outside its quantitative measure.”

    I agree that’s probably the weakest part of the passage. I take it as wishful thinking from Fripp rather than elitism. It does happen sometimes, but not often; Fripp’s “any small unit” is hopelessly optimistic.

  283. N_, my ideal society would be like Iain M Banks’ The Culture. There’d be virtually total “surveillance”, but all the output would be public. Nearly everyone would have a far more advanced version of a microchip in their brain, but they’d control it and not vice-versa. You could study whatever you want, have access to any information (this is why surveillance output has to be public), and so long as you didn’t abuse others, you could do whatever you like.

  284. Phil (to me at 10.13 pm on 13 July – and to Clark at 10.50): Thanks for that response. We both abhor the present political system in the UK (and globally, given that other states plus multinational agreements and companies limit our freedom of action). But we are both frustrated by what we see as the other’s energies being misplaced. I think we agree that the Home Office’s “emergency” bill is illiberal in both content and the way it will become part of UK law. But you think – I know this is my interpretation, exaggerated for effect, and not your precise words – that the legislation is a done deal and that writing to my MP is dilettante, self-deluding, elitist, Trotskyist/Leninist displacement activity. Much of that criticism hits home and my weakish defence is simply that opposing (however ineffectually) and discrediting bad laws undermines the authority of the legislators and governmental implementing agencies. That needs doing.

    Your energies concentrate on promoting radical decentralization as a long-term solution. I don’t disagree with that as a long-term aim, but I’d like you to show me even a tentative plan for how to get from here to there. You say: “We need to stop expecting remote elites to make decisions about our lives. We, the majority of good people, need to restrain psychopaths with a more direct democracy, not put them in palaces.” My problem is not what I expect others to do or entrusting to others instead of doing it myself. My specific problem now is what others are doing, whether I like it or not – such as this proposed legislation. (My voting in the last election does not mean that I was endorsing the current political system.) My aim is emphatically not to shore up a wonky system by piecemeal reform. It is simply to discredit one specific bad proposed new law.” It’s as if I’m hungry (even though employed) and you are telling me (shades of IDS) –“Learn to put up with the discomfort – what will really cure your hunger is a radically reformed and decentralized welfare system.” Extremes meet. But of course I don’t think your views are remotely like those of IDS.

    Isn’t the difference between us one of different levels of political activism? Opposing one unjust law is a different level and type of activity from opposing an unjust political/legislative system. And articulating a vision of future radical decentralization has little to do directly with tackling specific current injustices. The two can surely be linked, rather than dissipating the energies of both by those who are currently mainly occupied at one level disparaging the ideas and activities of those concerned to secure justice and greater social cooperation at a different level. That leaves plenty of room for constructive suggestions and criticism from those who approach issues from different timescales and perspectives. This website provides many examples of both constructive and destructive contributions, which is probably what attracts stubbornly argumentative contributors to it.

  285. I have just returned to this page since I last posted at lunchtime on the 13th.

    Clark I appreciate your interventions and explanations but there is no way I am responding to Technicolour’s goading and hectoring. Of course I do not put all Israelis in the same category and, as I have said before, have worked for Jewish bosses and have several Jewish friends, some of whom are members of Jews for Justice for Palestine.

    I do have a personal perspective on modern day Israel though because a very dear and close relative (whom I am not naming for fear of them being smeared by association with me) whose life was nearly taken on two occasions by the Israelis once when attempting to enter Gaza and once when in Gaza and I am not making that up.

    Anyway very soon I will not be around for a while as I am waiting to go into hospital so you can all have a nice rest from my postings! Habbakuk will have to select another person for his attentions.

    strong> I will not and never will give equivalence to the Occupier and the Occupied.

  286. Got the formatting wrong there :)

  287. @Clark

    I’d only consider a brain-Internet interface if all the hardware and software were fully disclosed, and Google is a leader in disclosure of technology.

    Are you serious?! We should trust the techies, then?

    The answer as to whether that’s supportable may rest on the answer to the question ‘What have the techies done for us so far, while history developed so that most people carry microwave trackers and the NSA seem to have got almost everything they’ve wanted?

    Google and Wikipedia can’t get away with blaming ‘the media’ for what they do. The internet is a medium. The question is who does what to whom.

    Google is a leader in hiding stuff, and has been since the early days.

    The issue isn’t cooperation and openness among programmers. That will be encouraged when it’s useful in the bigger picture and discouraged when it isn’t.

    Google’s marketing line has always been ‘give people what they want’. Of course that’s true of many or most companies’ marketing lines, but Google took it to an extreme (petabytes and up) with the whole way they took over and dominated internet search by promoting the sites that many other sites linked to.

    The company already dominates the field of machine learning, by which I mean it has a large proportion of the world’s experts on its payroll.

    I’d strongly recommend Steven Levy’s book – albeit that it’s pro the company, not anti, and a few years out of date.

  288. @Mary – I just read your above post. I hope everything goes well for you in hospital!

  289. Mary, best wishes for hospital. I don’t think for a moment that you made that up; the passion in your campaign long since convinced me that your involvement in the Palestinian struggle has personal dimensions.

    I don’t think Technicolour meant to goad or hector; ethnic discrimination is her specialist campaign as justice for the Palestinians is yours, and she annoyed me greatly a couple of years back when, I felt, she tried to smear me as racist for defending the notion that immigration rates should be open to discussion in a democracy; “if the people of Barking can [appreciate equality], why can’t you [Clark]?” or something like that. Gone and done, Mary; it was a spat and Technicolour is not on the “wrong side”. Neither is Dreoilin. Different people support various causes in their own ways, whereas some people disrupt in any way – I really can’t see you, me, Dreoilin or Technicolour sock- puppetting to post a “joke” about pork at an Israeli, or impersonating someone on Stormfront to discredit them here.

    Every time we discount someone, our own support comes to seem smaller and the opposition seems to get larger. Thus our own position seems to become more marginalised, and in response our struggle can become more desperate and our suspicion is likely to run higher. I hate to see this happening to you.

    Please look after yourself and let us know how you’re doing after hospital.

  290. N_, no, we shouldn’t trust “techies”. The point of disclosure is that it moves the trust from a selected insider group of techies to the entire technical community, including anyone who wishes to get involved. It isn’t just about the freedom to program; as Stallman says, “If the user doesn’t control the software, then the software will control the user”.

    Google’s search algorithm is partly secret; unless they disclose it Google can’t really defend against your charge, which presumably includes altering search results to favour Israel.

    “Wikipedia”, on the other hand, can hardly be blamed for anything; exactly who are you accusing here? I’m a Wikipedia editor; you may be as well. It’s not “Wikipedia’s” fault if Hasbara run courses on how to improve Israel’s image on Wikipedia.

    I wish people who dismiss Wikipedia would get in there and edit it themselves, especially regarding the Israel-Palestine issue, because there are much higher proportions of fluent writers of various languages among supporters of Israel than of Palestine, and this biasses the articles. It’s really easy to find other editors for mutual support, because you can see who did what from the articles’ histories.

    But I’m sorry to say that most people seem to give up on editing Wikipedia through lack of self-discipline. They start editing without reading and understanding the rules, and then when another editor reverts or alters their contribution they don’t handle it well. Maybe they’re used to posting whatever they like on blogs, and only stuff that’s actually offensive or irrelevant being deleted. Wikipedia isn’t like that, you’re not meant to post any opinion, anything you post is likely to be deleted if you haven’t supported it from a “reliable source”.

    But these rules apply to the Israeli-supporting editors as well. Pro-Israeli Wikipedia editors can and do get suspended or banned for breaking these same rules. So if you feel like countering a Zionist on Wikipedia, go look up user Gideon (if I remember rightly), and view the page that lists Gideon’s edits – users can’t delete these pages that show their activity. Look through the edits until you find well-sourced material that Gideon has removed – if you’re lucky, it’ll be some nugget you hadn’t encountered before. Check that Gideon wasn’t somehow justified – like the information should be in a more relevant article, or it’s repeated further down the page. Revert Gideon’s edit – the software may not let you do this, since it may affect other edits that are more recent, in which case you’ll have to restore the information manually…

    …Then add the page to your Watched Pages list, because Gideon or someone may come along and undo your edit. If they do, you can accuse them of Vandalism, removing well-source material.

    As you can see, it’s a lot of work and discipline. Israel has organised a small army of cyber-warriors, many of whom have learnt the terrain at Wikipedia and range freely within it – but how can I blame Wikipedia for that?

  291. Mary

    You claim to be misrepresented and then you blatantly misrepresent the argument of others.

    I hope your hospital visit goes as well as it can. Take care of yourself.

  292. Clark

    I too findt your faith in Google startling. They are the evil empire.

  293. Iain

    Sorry I am going to remain stubbornly uncompromising with this example.

    I am so far down the rabbit hole that I distrust Liberty. They are another pressure group of professional do gooders whith close personal links to the establishment and direct dissent in a way that does not challenge the establishment. They are a saftey valve to release pressure in a way that changes as little as possible. They are part of the problem.

    Writing letters at the behest of Liberty is a waste of time and energy. It is meant to be. Just to be clear I do not suggest that Chakrabarti OBE is even conscious of her role within this system. She might be, she might not. It doesn’t matter to the outcome.

    What I actually do instead is not so easily answered in the few minutes of narrow bandwidth I have right now. I will return later.

    [Walking on the Dales being buzzed by some very fast low flying aircraft. Presumably military training.]

  294. Phil, I have no faith in Google. My basic model is that companies are more benign when they’re young, and bit by bit the commercial structure they’re embedded in turns them more and more exploitative. They start out more benign because someone genuinely has a good idea. Someone thinks something up and thinks “wow, I’d pay for that, so other people would probably pay me for that” – a wholesome bargain, which becomes implemented by a company.

    Pretty soon, however, the commercial pressures move the company to decrease the value of what it is offering on the market while at the same time increasing the profit it makes.

    So far, what I’ve seen of Google doesn’t seem too bad. They don’t seem to be shooting environmental activists in Africa, or covering up pollution, or offering bribes to Saudi princes, or cutting off funds to Wikileaks. They don’t even make fighter jets or landmines. They’ve tried to resist US surveillance upon their users, and they seem to take their users’ e-mail security seriously. They’ve done some unsavoury stuff like hiding their funding of certain conferences. But this doesn’t mean I think Google is “good”. Commercial pressures just haven’t yet caught up with how to corrupt the good ideas that went into Google, but they will, and I’m very worried about the vast power Google is holding as that proceeds.

    But there’s a difference in our outlook. I don’t place any responsibility upon corporations to act morally or ethically. I see that as something to be imposed by laws made by democratic governments. I’m in favour of decentralisation within companies, such that the people doing the work have self-determination and can work in accord with their conscience. But that doesn’t guarantee that the company will behave ethically externally, because people’s ethical values differ; for instance a company could recruit thugs who had no qualms about intimidating people for money.

  295. Phil, I feel I should also point out the similarity between Mary’s “Israel is the problem” and your “Google is the evil empire”.

  296. Clark – your reply to Phil at 10.5 on small groups: I’m sorry that you see the potential influence of small groups as “wishful thinking” and “hopelessly optimistic” (though not, as Phil does, as elitist). Of course most small groups campaigning either for what they see as beneficial change or against unwelcome change fail; but I read the Fripp phrase “Any small group… can effect radical change” as focusing on the potential effectiveness of small groups in general, not as saying all you need to do is get together a like-minded group and, with enough commitment, you have a strong possibility of changing the world. Small groups are more like clumps of frogspawn, tadpoles and frogs: most fail to complete the cycle as far as producing effective/fertile successor generations. Would my preference for hopeful (but realistic) optimism be better expressed by saying that “Most radical change has its origins in small committed groups”?

    Let me give some examples, chosen to remind us that not all radical change is desirable: the Tolpuddle Martyrs, Jesus and his disciples, the Stern Gang [both operating in and around Jerusalem], Rosa Parks and the Montgomery chapter of the NAACP, the campaign by the islanders to buy out the landlord of Eigg, the Cuban revolution, the Dongria Kondh’s victory (so far) against the Vedanta mining group’s plans to destroy the sacred Niyamgiri Hills from bauxite mining, the 9/11 conspirators (whoever you believe they were); and the Tristan da Cunha islanders who won their campaign to return, in 1963, to their island homeland to prolong the vitality of their fascinating example of a society where cooperation and caring for each other is built into every local institution [except the still colonial constitution designed by the FCO]. Sadly, the Chagossians have not yet won their campaign, which also started with small groups of activists.

    There are all sorts of reasons why some small groups succeed and others fail. Confidence matters, as do solidarity, leadership. Outside support and advice may be factors, but generally if it’s a matter of life and death for core members that will matter more than the advice from kibitzers, as most of us contributing to this website are. And the effects can be unexpected. Craig’s standing in two parliamentary elections may look now to have been “hopelessly optimistic”, but it has led to this website becoming one of the better public resources for radical voices that are seldom given time, space or serious attention in the BBC, ITV and mainstream media. So, let’s try to make the small groups whose aims we share effective rather than resigning ourselves to noisy electronic impotence.

  297. Phil (at 2.01 pm) – Just seen and worth a brief rejoinder. I can understand your stubbornness since far too often letters to MPs, PQs, petitions,Early Day motions, select committee reports and even that jewel in the our democratic crown, parliamentary debates – like the much-touted Lord’s one we will soon have on Assisted Dying – are indeed ineffective. They are seldom levers for change – donating to political parties is. But I don’t accept that letter writing and other such activities are “meant to be… a waste of time and energy”. Rhetorically, perhaps. But for “waste of time and energy” to be the conscious intent of ministers and parliamentarians of all parties, rather than an unwelcome by-product of far more basic deficiencies in our political system, you would need to convince me that these are either psychologically sub-normal people or genuinely – not just rhetorically – psychotic, compared to you and me. I find it difficult to deal with an analysis where I am invited to regard others as inferior to you and me, even if your next move is to say – “it’s not them, it’s the system”.

    I don’t know enough about Liberty to feel able to defend it fully against your charge, as I understand you, of being unwitting dupes of the establishment, becoming in effect an addition to Bagehot’s decorative and ceremonial part of the UK’s unwritten constitution. However, I have often heard Shami Chakrabarti use her access to the media to say things that need saying with every appearance of meaning what she says. I’d find it weird if she asked me my honest opinion to say to her: “I agree with every word, but just by remaining in your present position you are giving aid and comfort to the enemy. So, please now resign and say why you are doing so. Have you considered that she might be a more than willing dupe so that come the revolution she can raise your flag of radical decentralization from within the ramparts of Westminster. Why not write to her? You ought to be able to do so in terms sufficiently untendentious for her reply to provide evidence of what sort of dupe she is, witting or unwitting; or whether she is one at all.

    Finally, I did not write to my MP “at the behest of Liberty”. re Rather (as I thought was apparent) learning of their campaign was the trigger for my finding out more about the new Home Office legislation and then having sufficient reasons of my own to want to write to my MP, making no mention of Liberty in my letter. I expect that any of your further comments on this subject will be at your own rather than at my behest. I do envy your walking in the Dales. It probably leads to sharper thoughts than muggy SE London.

  298. Iain

    Sorry mate I suspect you are going to find my answer unsatifying.

    Chakrabarti asks people to write letters that achieve nothing and she is rewarded with honours by the corporate state. She is often on the tv machine. She opens the olympic games. She drinks tea with gold command watching live helicoptor video feeds. In contrast London greenpeace, for challenging the flow of money, get imprisoned and raped by agents of the corporate state. They are not often on the tv machine. They do not get to open the olympic games.

    Of course Chakrabarti says things that appeal to you. That’s how she got where she is. She has to appeal to you or you might go off and do something else. But no matter how damning her description may be her prescription is always never a threat to the establishment.

    This is how it works. Ineffective dissent is rewarded and threatening dissent is crushed. All it takes is for everyone to do their job. I don’t even see this as anything contentious. It is obvious.

    Trying to assess Chakrabarti’s motivation and cynicism is entirely moot. It makes no difference to the action I take, which is to ignore her.

  299. Clark
    Phil, I feel I should also point out the similarity between Mary’s “Israel is the problem” and your “Google is the evil empire”.

    Of course I only think of Google as one evil corporation in a world of evil corpoprations and lots of evil other things. I give them no special significance beyond their size and influence. As well you know from previous arguments we have had. You’re joking right?

  300. Clark

    Sorry mate I can’t debate your crazy faith in evil corporations right now. We have failed to agree at great length before. I’m on holiday and Clare is threatening to throw ne out of the tent if I stay online.

  301. Iain

    You probably are but just in case, I refer to the London Greenpeace (nothing to do with Greenpeace) activist who said having sex with an undercover cop was like being raped by the state.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/24/undercover-police-spy-girlfriend-child

  302. Phil, 6:51 pm; that’s a pretty convincing argument. What about Caroline Lucas?

  303. Phil, enjoy your holiday.

  304. I sent off a letter to my MP about the Snoopers’ Charter, much good it will do.

    ~~

    Saw this and found it unbelievable knowing of the crooks’ sharp practices that lie behind PFIs but it fits in with Gideon’s outlook.

    14 July 2014
    Midland Metropolitan Hospital PFI plans approved

    The Midland Metropolitan Hospital will be built on this land in Smethwick

    New hospital business case approved
    £380m hospital ‘one step closer’
    Hospital plans delayed by review
    A £353m hospital is to be built in the West Midlands.

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne has announced approval for the 670-bed Midland Metropolitan Hospital to be built on land in Smethwick.
    The building will be funded by both the public and private sector through a private finance deal, he said.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-28289741

    I imagine the plan in place is that the site of the old hospital will be flogged off to Gideon’s and Agent Cameron’s developer friends once the new one is built and the hospital is closed down.

    Shame on all of them and that includes the execrable LDs who facilitated the rotten coalition.

  305. Phil

    When you’re back from holiday – so perhaps on a different thread – I’d like to hear you spell out the things that Chakrabarti would not want me to go off and do.

    “Ineffective dissent is rewarded and threatening dissent is crushed”: fine phrasemaking but I don’t have your faith that the corporate state understands what is effective or ineffective, nor in its ability to crush threatening dissent. As you said yourself earlier in these exchanges: “We need to stop expecting remote elites to make decisions about our lives”. So, why build the current morally and economically discredited neo-conmen into the such powerful monsters?

    I don’t share your rather Manichean or Calvinist view of the world where people and institutions are slotted into good and bad boxes. Like you, I have considerable admiration for Greenpeace. I did, not, however, admire their public support for David Miliband’s declaration on 1 April 2010 of a full no-take Marine Protected Area in the Chagos Archipelago(excluding the area immediately around the US base on Diego Garcia). That support was given in the full knowledge that a key element of the FCO’s strategy to prevent the return to their islands of the exiled Chagossians was getting the weight of the environmental lobby to welcome this disingenuous pretence that the then Labour Government was purely motivated by concern for the global marine environment. But I would not thereby write off Greenpeace as New Labour brown nosers: just as showing very poor judgement in this case and being ready, as many NGOs are, to compromise their values and be diverted from threatening dissent by their hunger for goodies that only the corporate state can currently give them.

  306. Iain

    “spell out the things that Chakrabarti would not want me to go off and do”

    I have no idea. I am not interested in what she thinks. My argument does not require her to be cynical in any way. She might be but I do not care. I am interested in what she does. In her role as an acceptable (to the establishment) face of dissent.

    “why build the current morally and economically discredited neo-conmen into the such powerful monsters?”

    I don’t think I did. I do not think the current political class is the problem. I do not think our problems will be solved by a new political class and the problem existed long before our current political class. The problem is systematic. Power corrupts. We need to minimise the destruction that centralised corruption enables. A radically wide distribution of power is the only mechanism I can see which might achieve this. Anarchism.

    “[your] view of the world where people and institutions are slotted into good and bad boxes.”

    I do no such thing. It is the very fact that people are not either good or bad that informs me. Were things so simple all we would need to do is elect the good ones and hey presto we are laughing.

    “Greenpeace”

    Possibly incidentally (but probably not) London Greenpeace are not Greenpeace. Different groups with similar name.

  307. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    15 Jul, 2014 - 1:27 am

    Why does our government even want more surveillance powers when it’s already got this, another Edward Snowdon leak:

    “A newly released top-secret GCHQ document called “JTRIG Tools and Techniques” provides a comprehensive, birds-eye view of just how underhanded and invasive this unit’s operations are. Here’s a list of how JTRIG describes its capabilities:

    • “Change outcome of online polls” (UNDERPASS)

    • “Mass delivery of email messaging to support an Information Operations campaign” (BADGER) and “mass delivery of SMS messages to support an Information Operations campaign” (WARPARTH)

    • “Disruption of video-based websites hosting extremist content through concerted target discovery and content removal.” (SILVERLORD)

    • “Active skype capability. Provision of real time call records (SkypeOut and SkypetoSkype) and bidirectional instant messaging. Also contact lists.” (MINIATURE HERO)

    • “Find private photographs of targets on Facebook” (SPRING BISHOP)

    • “A tool that will permanently disable a target’s account on their computer” (ANGRY PIRATE)

    • “Ability to artificially increase traffic to a website” (GATEWAY) and “ability to inflate page views on websites” (SLIPSTREAM)

    • “Amplification of a given message, normally video, on popular multimedia websites (Youtube)” (GESTATOR)

    • “Targeted Denial Of Service against Web Servers” (PREDATORS FACE) and “Distributed denial of service using P2P. Built by ICTR, deployed by JTRIG” (ROLLING THUNDER)

    • “A suite of tools for monitoring target use of the UK auction site eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk)” (ELATE)

    • “Ability to spoof any email address and send email under that identity” (CHANGELING)

    • “For connecting two target phone together in a call” (IMPERIAL BARGE)”

  308. Iain Orr, 14 Jul, 9:18 pm:

    “I don’t have your faith that the corporate state understands what is effective or ineffective, nor in its ability to crush threatening dissent.”

    It doesn’t need to understand; it’s more like a reflex response inherent in the structure of the system:

    http://www.killick1.plus.com/corporate-behaviour.html

    Such emergent self-organising systems are found to be common in biology; “macrocosm dominates microcosm”, just as the organisation of our bodies imposes non-reproduction upon the vast majority of our cells (and those cells are adapted to comply), the corporate imperatives impose behaviour upon employees (including those high in the hierarchy) and those who won’t yield, it replaces.

    The evidence that the corporate system can identify and oppose actions that threaten or restrict it is all around us. The corporate system blindly* destroys environments and dominates lives; it has major influence upon supposedly democratic governments.

    * – “blindly” – Phil, as I’ve said before, I don’t regard corporations as evil, but as amoral – simply not suitable to be considered in moral terms. If doing something beneficial makes the most profit in a given circumstance, corporations will do it. For me to regard corporations as “evil”, they’d have to choose to do damage in preference to pursuing their own best interests as measured in their own terms – which is profit.

  309. Phil passim and Clark (at 7.50 am): There’s a lot that is plausible – indeed, accurate in significant parts – in the models you both use to explain how “systems” produce results that are damaging to society without needing bad people or villains. In Phil’s words (and as Clark’s stolen telephone calls example is intended to illustrate): “All it takes is for everyone to do their job. “ What I find depressing is this dehumanizing reduction of people to jobs. If Craig in Uzbekistan had just “done his job” and not rocked the boat he would have been both a bad ambassador and a bad person. Clark’s BT example is beautifully constructed as long as two human qualities are removed from the equations – imagination and trust. At every level Clark populates the BT system with jobsworths. In my book anyone who significantly harms others through failure to imagine what it is like to be the other person and without trusting what others say to them is a bad person. Of course there are often good objective reasons to distrust what someone says – but I will not accept “company policy” as a “reason”, only as a rule which is not to be applied blindly. To the extent that blind application of rules is discouraged at different levels or is enforced with whips and scorpions, the badness may be due to “one bad egg” or indeed be part of the system. But if lack of imagination and trust are integral to the system, the system is far from “amoral”, it’s immoral.

    I agree with Clark that “openness and accountability matter so much”; and I am keen to read Phil’s promised post-holiday suggestions of what I and others can do to promote radical decentralization. Are these activities ones that can be undertaken completely separate from engagement with current defective political and social systems? Interpreting and understanding systems is invaluable as far as it goes, but, as Marx said in his eleventh thesis on Feuerbach, the point is to change the world for the better.

  310. It’s only 4 days since Craig’s original post on this subject and since I wrote to my MP on the subject (text at 7.02 pm on 11 July). So Tessa Jowell’s office can’t be faulted over speed in replying. Neither I nor anyone else reading it will be surprised by the content of her round-robin reply (below). However, having started, I will continue this stately parliamentary pavane, the next step being to thank her for her email but regretting that she and her party have missed the opportunity to mount a principled opposition to this bill in terms which could have put pressure on those (few) Conservative and LibDem MPs who really do attach importance to big government not prying into citizen’s private lives. (I’ll also send an email to thank all MPs who vote against tonight’s motion: my prediction is 25 against: 8 Lab, 4 Con 1 LibDem and 12 SNP and assorted others.)

    JOWELL, Tessa Today at 5:15 PM
    To
    JOWELL, Tessa
    Thank you for getting in touch with me about the Government’s emergency legislation on communication data and interception. I’ve received over 200 emails today on various aspects of this legislation and I hope you will understand if I reply to these as a whole whilst addressing as many of these issues as I can in the time available.

    As a result of a recent judgement by the European Court of Justice, the police and intelligence agencies are in danger of losing vital information which is used in 95% of serious and organised crime investigations as well as counter terror investigations and online child abuse. In order to prevent this, new legislation is needed which responds to the European Court of Justice judgement on data retention and brings clarity to existing law in response to communication service providers’ requests. If these changes are not made, the police are likely to suddenly lose vital evidence this summer.

    The Government has come forward with emergency legislation and, in considering our response, I believe it is essential to maintain the security of our citizens and also ensure people’s privacy is protected. Serious criminal investigations and counter terrorism intelligence operations must not be jeopardised. That is why I support this emergency legislation which I accept is designed solely to protect existing capabilities.

    I share the concerns that many have expressed about the timetable and the fact the Government has left this until the last minute. Given the limited Parliamentary time to discuss emergency legislation Labour has ensured that the Government’s legislation is temporary and will expire in 2016. This will require the Government and Parliament to properly consult upon, and consider, longer term proposals next year.

    Labour has also secured an independent review into RIPA – the legislation that has governed everything in this area, including data retention and access – in the light of new technology. We announced this pledge four months ago. It is a major reform and will now begin imminently. This afternoon, Labour is also seeking to amend the Bill to make this review part of the law.

    This review will enable longer term questions and concerns to be properly dealt with and debated in time for new legislation. Changes will then follow. In addition, Labour has called for and secured further safeguards to restrict the ways in which communications data and intercepts can be used to prevent misuse.

    Some people have been calling for new legislation in 5 months, but I don’t believe that is enough time for the serious, thorough and sustained public debate and consultation needed to get this right. That’s what Labour’s independent review will deliver.

    It would be far too damaging to the fight against serious crime, online child abuse and counter terrorist intelligence to suddenly lose these capabilities now, and these safeguards have secured a better process for longer term reform to make sure we have the right capabilities and the right safeguards in place.

    I do recognise that these are issues upon which there are wide ranging views but I hope that I have set out my position clearly.

    Thank you again for contacting me on such an important matter.

    With best wishes,

    Tessa Jowell

    Rt. Hon. Dame Tessa Jowell MP

    Tessa on Twitter: @jowellt
    Tessa on Facebook: facebook.com/TessaJowell

    This e-mail is confidential to the intended recipient. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any unauthorised use, disclosure, or copying is not permitted. This e-mail has been checked for viruses, but no liability is accepted for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail.
    UK Parliament Disclaimer: This e-mail is confidential to the intended recipient. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any unauthorised use, disclosure, or copying is not permitted. This e-mail has been checked for viruses, but no liability is accepted for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail.

  311. For the record. Here are the 35 (including the No tellers) who opposed the third reading of the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Bill (from Hansard at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm140715/debtext/140715-0005.htm )
    Abbott, Ms Diane Lab; Bone, Mr Peter Con; Campbell, Mr Ronnie Lab; Clark, Katy Lab; Davis, rh Mr David Con; Durkan, Mark SDLP; Edwards, Jonathan PlC; Hemming, John LD; Hoey, Kate Lab; Hopkins, Kelvin Lab; Hosie, Stewart SNP; Joyce, Eric Ind; Lavery, Ian Lab; Lazarowicz, Mark Lab; Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn PlC; Long, Naomi All; Lucas, Caroline Green; MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan SNP; McDonnell, Dr Alasdair SDLP; Morris, Grahame M. (Easington) Lab; Mudie, Mr George Lab; Ritchie, Ms Margaret SDLP; Robertson, Angus SNP; Sanders, Mr Adrian LD; Sheridan, Jim Lab; Skinner, Mr Dennis Lab; Turner, Mr Andrew Con; Watson, Mr Tom Lab; Weir, Mr Mike SNP; Whiteford, Dr Eilidh SNP; Williams, Hywel PlC; Winnick, Mr David Lab; Wishart, Pete SNP; Tellers for the Noes: John McDonnell Lab and Jeremy Corbyn Lab
    Totals: Lab 15, Con 3, LD 2, SNP 6, Others 9
    My prediction was close, but for underestimating the number of Labour rebels.

  312. Thanks Iain.

    Just three extracts from yesterday’s proceedings. They stand out for standing up.

    1 pm
    Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab):
    I consider this to be an outright abuse of parliamentary procedure. I will certainly vote against the motion, and I hope that a number of hon. Members will do so as well.

    Even if one is in favour of what the Home Secretary intends to do, to do it in this manner—to pass all the stages in one day—surely makes a farce of our responsibilities as Members of Parliament. When one considers the issues that are involved, how can one justify saying that the Bill must pass every stage by 10 o’clock? Does that meet our duty and responsibility to our constituents?

    We must bear it in mind that, as has been said, the European Court of Justice made the decision in April. It is now July. The theatre of last Thursday—the Cabinet meeting at 8 o’clock, the television conference and the statement by the Home Secretary—was all well staged.

    There has been no pre-legislative scrutiny by the Select Committees—none at all. This is the sort of issue that the Home Affairs Committee and other Select Committees that consider human rights should look at in detail. None of that has been done.

    Today, we should try to persuade the Government to provide more parliamentary time, whether by extending this sitting or postponing other business, so that we can go through the stages. One thing is absolutely certain: every Member of this House must consider very carefully, if they are in favour of the measure or not, whether it is right and justified to go through all the stages in one day. Is that not a mockery of parliamentary democracy?

    Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con):
    To follow on from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), I think that we are looking at a third category: a piece of legislation that is being renewed, but that has fallen into disrepute over the years in which it has been used. That is why this Bill is more important than a simple renewal.

    There is an emergency—a legal emergency—but it started on 8 April. It was eminently predictable because, as far back as 2010, the European data protection supervisor said that the data retention directive was

    “without doubt the most privacy invasive instrument ever adopted by the EU”.

    Data retention has been struck down in Germany and Romania, and there have been difficulties in other countries. The two requests to the European Court of Justice came not from bogus organisations, but from the Irish High Court and the Constitutional Court of Austria. Those were therefore serious revisions and it was entirely probable that we would find ourselves in the situation that we are in today.

    Why has it taken three months? Why was the legislation not pre-prepared? Why was the deal with the Labour party not struck in advance? My understanding is that there was an argument inside the Government between the two halves of the coalition. That argument has gone on for three months. What the coalition could not decide in three months, this House has to decide in one day. That seems to me entirely improper.

    Dr Huppert:
    Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

    Mr Davis:
    No, I am going to be very fast and finish on this point.

    Parliament has three roles: to scrutinise legislation, to prevent unintended consequences and to defend the freedom and liberty of our constituents. The motion undermines all three and we should oppose it.

    Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab):
    In the brief time that we have, I think that I should put it on the record that MPs had only 47 minutes to submit unstarred amendments to the Bill yesterday. Most reasonable people will conclude that Parliament has been insulted by the cavalier way in which a secret deal has been used to ensure that elected representatives are curtailed in their ability to consider, scrutinise, debate and amend the Bill. It is democratic banditry, resonant of a rogue state.

    ~~~

    data retention and investigatory powers bill (business of the house)

    data retention and investigatory powers bill

    data retention and investigatory powers bill (money)

    data retention and investigatory powers bill

    Linked on
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm140715/debindx/140715-x.htm

    ~~~~

    One of the several office assistants that my MP employs (with my taxes)has writtene to say she would be replying asap. The usual. The posh embossed envelope will arrive in a couple of weeks’ time containing anodyne printed on matching stationery. There will also be a government handout.

    Democracy? What democracy?

    This vile bill, designed to demonise Muslims who have lost millions of their peoples to the ‘Christian’ and the ‘Jew’ over the centuries, has been pulled out of the hat in the illusion that British Muslims fighting against Assad in Syria will come back to bomb us.

    Every element is a lie, including of course our own Pearl Harbour – 7/7. And no one in our bloody-handed media (with very few exceptions) has said that Cameron and Hague and the rest encouraged ‘jihadists’ to go to Syria in the first place. Cunning parallels evil.

  313. Mary – thanks for selecting those passages from the debate. Maybe we need to balance the picture with a few examples of the quality of argument of those supporting the legislation. I was particularly struck by these complacent and disingenuous remarks from Jack Straw at 7.25 pm: ” Of course I accept that the public are concerned, but from my long experience they have a clear view of how to balance the interests of liberty and their own personal security—that is what this is about, not the security of the state—and they implicitly acknowledge that, although the systems that we have built up during the past 30 years may not be perfect, they do provide that balance. They provide a level of control over Ministers and the intelligence, security and police services, which is pretty unparalleled in most other countries.”

  314. Iain
    “I am keen to read Phil’s promised post-holiday suggestions of what I and others can do to promote radical decentralization.”

    Become an anarchist.

  315. Iain

    Back in fat bandwidth land I have just looked at your profile. We’re practically neighbours. I’m in Waterloo.

    To my horror (read delight) I see you are up to your neck in the world of reformist NGOs I disabuse.

    I would like to offer Liberty’s application to a secret court as further proof of my argument that they direct dissent towards futile action.

  316. I see the MP for where I live, Kate Hoey, voted against the bill. I am still considering standing against her next year.

    That Straw quote is hilarious. He typifies careerist scumbag. I like Craig’s stroies about his gangsterism. All very Brechtian.

    Iain, what philosophy did you study? Does it inform you now?

  317. ‘I’m in Waterloo.’ Which platform? Or are you under the clock? ;)

  318. Iain Orr and Phil, sorry I haven’t responded; life suddenly got busy! I’ll come back to this thread – er – later…

  319. Phil (on philosophy): I followed a traditional Scottish course at St Andrews – Moral Philosophy (Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Locke, Kant and modern Anglo-Americans with barely a disdainful look at continental woolly mammoths from Hegel to existentialism) and Logic & Metaphysics (ditto, with the addition of Russell, Wittgenstein, Ryle, Austin etc). I nearly went into academic philosophy but didn’t feel consumed by ideas. Recently I’ve joined the South London Philosophy Group and sometimes do papers showing that I can quickly get lost up my own fundament on issues such as space (if it has three dimensions, why), time, perception and wondering if there could be a “Green Philosophy” [Roger Scruton has signposted one blind alley].

    Where philosophy informs me now is probably in only considering problems real if they come tied up in conceptual and linguistic knots; and in formulating excuses that seem watertight until one finds that the bricks they are built of are made of straw rather than clay.

  320. Phil

    Back to politics and thanks for the link to the case that Liberty and others have taken to the Investigative Powers Tribunal (so secret that its website gives the CVs of its members and this week’s hearings are held in public at the Royal Courts of Justice: I’m tempted to go along tomorrow). However, I don’t see this as evidence that Liberty et al are busy doing things that don’t cause the government any problems.

    I was delighted (and I don’t mean horrified) finally to have advice about what I should do instead – inter alia – of wasting my time writing to MPs. However it’s so simple and clear – “Become an anarchist” – that philosophy immediately kicks in to muddy the water. How do I “become” what I am not? Do I need, like Tony Blair becoming a Catholic, to “take instruction” (not quite as anti-anarchic as it might seem)? Or do I need to wait for a moment of quasi-Buddhist enlightenment? Is there an anarchist Alpha course that I can attend? Will it work on a committed but stingy Church of Scotland atheist?

    If you’d be prepared to stand a first round, email biodiplomacy [-] yahoo [-] co [-] uk and we can down some pints as a Hague send-off in or around Waterloo. I’ll be intrigued to hear how, if you stand against Kate Hoey, you will manage not to waste many hours (and pounds, for the deposit and campaign – ask Craig all about it)in futile activity that poses no threat to “the system”.

    Just to round-up on yesterday’s debate and vote on the DRIP bill, here’s the email I sent this morning to Jeremy Corbyn (a campaigner for the exiled Chagossians and many others oppressed by those wielding power), copied to others who opposed the DRIP bill:

    “As you were one of the No tellers for last night’s vote, I write to you, copied to all other MPs who opposed this lamentable bill. You all deserve thanks from those whose dream is of a Parliament which provides effective oversight of the executive. Sadly, last night provided further evidence of the readiness of the majority of your parliamentary colleagues to serve as loyal lobby-fodder, even if many of those who went into the “Yes” lobby did so with a show of reluctance.

    However, though you did not have the numbers, you had far the better of the argument. Also, yours was the argument that had support from more political parties, even if the main ones could rely on carpet-bombing to blanket your sniper-fire. With respect for parliament and for mainstream political parties diminishing, it must be a worrying sign for those with the courage to defy party whips that those you counted through the “No” lobby from the three main parties (18) were nearly matched by those representing minority parties (14), whose strength comes primarily from voters who have lost faith in the ability of the main parties at Westminster to reflect their values, needs and aspirations for a better society.

    But that was just round one on DRIP. You and your “No” colleagues will need to carry this battle into the next parliament. Meanwhile your votes were good deeds in a naughty world. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/fairerdingo/2865123783/) ”

    We should meet sometime in or around Waterloo. Email me: biodiplomacy [at] yahoo co uk

  321. Drip, drip!

    Peers criticise government over emergency data laws http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28331813

    But they will probably rubber stamp it.

  322. Iain
    “Investigative Powers Tribunal (so secret that its website gives the CVs of its members and this week’s hearings are held in public at the Royal Courts of Justice: I’m tempted to go along tomorrow)”

    So secretive that it has no location. It has no obligation to publish it’s rulings. So not entirely secretive but certainly not transparent.

    So this court: It is partly secret. All the judges are appointed by the PM (the Queen of course). There is no process of appeal. They keep rulings unpublished. They have dismissed 99.3% of reported complaints.

    This is the process you are happy to participate in? Sorry not participate, watch. If you do go along please write a report up for us.

    “finally to have advice about what I should do”

    Sorry to have kept you waiting.

    “How do I “become” what I am not?”

    Learn, think and act. Honestly, you philosophy types make a meal of everything.

    “Will it work on a committed but stingy Church of Scotland atheist?”

    Yes.

    “if you stand against Kate Hoey, you will manage not to waste many hours (and pounds, for the deposit and campaign – ask Craig all about it)in futile activity”

    Yes. I was joking. Sort of.

    “Email me”

    Sent.

  323. Phil

    Thanks for the extra details on the IPT. I imagine few would be surprised that less than 1% of complaints to it are upheld: either it means that snooping authorities are punctilious about staying within their legal restrictions or (more plausibly) that these legal restrictions are as confining as the oceans are to fish. The secrecy of the Swedish procedures faced by Assange [Craig's latest posting]make the IPT seem almost benign. I’m not in the event able to go to the Liberty hearing today, but will lookout for another opportunity. Meanwhile, I wonder if Liberty will be allowed to report on the hearing.

  324. “What is this leading up to?” I would suggest, not a lot. The fear of liquid bombs may well be exaggerated, but if the government believes that terrorists are willing and able to make them (or even *might* do so) then airport security will continue banning travellers from taking bottled water past security (as happened to me in the USA some years ago) or insisting that small tubes of toothpaste be in transparent containers, not opaque plastic bags (happened to me more recently).

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