The Blog That Reaches the Parts…

by craig on August 12, 2014 10:20 pm in Uncategorized

Insch2public_mtg

Tweet this post

161 Comments

  1. Good luck Craig,

    Don’t forget to get it recorded for youtube, to reach a wider audience who could not attend the meeting.

  2. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    12 Aug, 2014 - 10:29 pm

    Is this a paying gig? :)

  3. Ben

    I presume that was indeed a joke!

  4. nice one… Yes get it on Video as Fedup Says

    Craig hope you don’t… I posted on George Galloway’s Facebook page..that you have said you would be happy to debate him on indy – After he had put up you’re ‘ Forget Those Shredded Children, Hadley Freeman is the Real Victim Here ‘ – thread…. Good on him for helping spread that…And of course to you for Writing / Posting it

  5. Good luck – I am counting on you Craig!

  6. Insch??? Population about 2,000, not counting sheep. There is a reason for this, I am sure…

  7. here's a question

    13 Aug, 2014 - 7:50 am

    Yes, here are three questions for you.

    First, the £85000 question:

    if Scotland goes independent and the Scottish Government fails to agree on a currency union with the independent country next door, how much will it cost to set up a Scottish financial services compensation scheme to protect people’s bank deposits at the level at which they will continue to be protected if Scotland stays in the UK (£85000)?

    Note that having such a level of protection (€100,000 or equivalent) is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one, for EU membership.

    Note further that independent countries cannot expect their citizens’ bank deposits to be guaranteed by foreign countries, even if the accounts are held in banks registered in those countries.

    Second,

    if an independent Scotland has its own currency, how much additional cost will the average Scottish family incur in changing currency, for example when buying rUK pounds when going south of the border to visit family, when buying goods from down south online, or when changing back unspent rUK pounds on coming home?

    And third,

    is it, er, sensible, for Alex Salmond to threaten to renege on Scotland’s share of UK debt if the independent country next door does not agree to his demand for a currency union? Has he taken advice on what the response may be from international banks and rating agencies, and if so what advice did he receive?

  8. Questions: if, as the polls predict, the Scottish people vote to stay in the UK,

    1) will Alex Salmond resign as First Minister?

    2) will he support the calling of a Scottish general election right away, without waiting two years until 2016?

  9. Five very good questions there.

    Answers?

  10. The 3 ‘question’ comments above (7:50, 8:01 & 8:02) all came from the same IP address. They all seem to be from the same person.

  11. Salmond will not resign in the event of a ‘No’ vote and the SNP is likely to be returned in 2016 with another overall majority. The majority in favour of DevoMax will see the need to fight Scotland’s corner within the UK, against the inevitable British reaction to the referendum and the increasingly dysfunctional British system. The SNP have made devolution credible and successful in a way that London controlled parties will never be capable of and that is how they will be judged at Holyrood rather than on the Referendum result.

  12. It seems like McTernans unitrolls are busy. :-)

  13. deepgreenpuddock

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:06 am

    Insch- home to a very expensive pre- history theme park that was meant to be a major tourist attraction and resource and was, it was hoped, provide a source of revenue for the locals, providing services to the hordes of visitors from far and wide. Everything was ‘right’ about the project on paper.
    It was a fantastic example of magical thinking by Aberdeenshire councillors, who ploughed largish amounts of cash into the project. Location is important.

    I think Archaeolink would make a near perfect case study of how local politics and politicians can go adrift and how to become suspended in a dilemma . Best intentions not always a guide to the outcome?

    As for the event-I will be there.for once an event is within my evening travelling range. Hooray.
    Am still mystified by the location though. The bowling club wont hold many people, and if it is being advertised here and George Galloway facebook, it may attract numbers.
    Nearby Inverurie would be an interesting venue. Not far from a host of farmer No voters but I guess
    If the word gets out, they will be on their way to Insch.
    The local community are aggressively reactionary (known locally as ‘independent thinking’ or ‘thrawn’).
    They do their money sums carefully and that is how they order and inform their world-with money sums. Anything else is frippery. A bawbee is a bawbee.
    I think this could be a lively one. It may even go down in history, like the Turra Coo.
    Watch out for the unexpected (if that makes sense). Don’t be surprised if a herd of coos is marshalled outside or some other agricultural demonstration is enacted, or some spoiler. (I would have a plan B ready)
    I will be taking my camera. I will also try to get my tee shirt ready for the event.

  14. The Bitter Together attack dogs could at least have the decency to frame their ‘questions’ to Craig in a less aggressive manner.

  15. Deepgreenpudock

    Not sure where you live, but there may be one even closer to you. At the moment have St Andrews 26th, Insch 28th and Dundee 29th. 27th is being worked on at the minute probably again somewhere small around Deeside – and possibly a lunchtime meeting at one of the Aberdeen universities. Also trying to fit in something at Cupar Fife.

  16. Heresaquestion:
    First:
    A ridiculous point as the rum,in its own interests,will happily have a currency union. Currently accounts are guaranteed by the shared assets of the union, so Scotland,s share would cover any costs in the event of division.
    If,my preferred option, scotland was forced into an independent currency then it would guarantee them in its own denomination-at no cost.
    Second:
    The same costs they incur travelling to any other country,is bugger all. A national exchangecould be organised to iincreased she competition in this area. I hoppe into Poland from Germany and they were delighted to be paid in zlotys or euros. It,s all money.
    Third:
    Of course it is. If the ball is taken away, then the game is off and the blame lies with the party that withdrew said ball.
    You seem to have a rather too generous opinion of international financial institions and the ratings spiv.
    Fuck em.

  17. 12 August 2014

    Scottish independence: Danny Alexander in post-Yes currency vow

    ‘The chief secretary to the Treasury has insisted he will continue to oppose a currency union even if Scotland votes for independence.

    Danny Alexander told a BBC referendum debate in Inverness that such a deal would leave Scotland with less economic freedom than it has now.

    But SNP MP Angus Robertson described a formal arrangement to share the pound as “eminently sensible”.

    He said it was the best of a “range of options” open to Scotland.

    Earlier this year, Mr Alexander joined Chancellor George Osborne and Labour’s Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls in ruling out entering into a formal currency union with an independent Scotland.’

    He makes the mistake of believing that anyone is interested in his thought.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28766407

  18. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:59 am

    Good luck with the tour, Craig, got a wedding on the 30th.here in Norwich. Would have loved to attend one of the debates.
    The interlopers interest, shouting questions at you further up, and almost instantly, make it obvious to all readers here, that your site is important to them and that many come here to read.

    Might see you DTRH if I can find another lift.

  19. deepgreenpuddock

    13 Aug, 2014 - 10:08 am

    Hi Am in Aberdeen, but can’t do lunchtimes.
    Insch is fine. If you need a venue on Deeside-there is the Crathes hall,holds about 140. I could possibly assist in a booking and setting up.
    There is also Woodend Barn (arts venue) in Banchory, but suspect it would be more expensive and less readily available.
    There are other village halls around Deeside. Pretty sure one would be available.
    All are potentially very lively locations for a debate/meeting.

  20. 7:50, 8:01 & 8:02,

    The World’s currency system is currently going through a revolution, which even if we succeed in avoiding a probably terminal World War III, is likely to be extremely traumatic for everyone – not least the USA, which has off-shored virtually all of its productive wealth producing industry and is rapidly becoming a Third World country.

    If something is broken – and the current economic system is the equivalent of a virus ridden 25 year old computer running Windows 3.1, then its best to dump all the hardware and system software, and replace it with something extremely well designed which is both reliable, secure and which works.

    If Scotland really wants its own Independence, then the only way it can really achieve it is by having its own economic system, its own government controlled central bank, and its own currency.

    There is absolutely no reason, why this should not be far more successful, than the current disastrous mess, and Scotland could in fact lead the way, in showing the rest of the world how it can be done.

    There are small working models already in existence, that have not been crushed by the dinosaurs – even in the USA – for example the Bank of North Dakota. Northern English Building Societies used to operate successfully on similar lines – before being swamped with short term profits (for their owners – the people who saved their money there).

    A good place to learn what is possible, and will work is Ellen Brown’s “The Public Bank Solution”

    “WHAT WALL STREET DOESN’T WANT YOU TO KNOW
    Shock waves from one Wall Street scandal after another have completely disillusioned us with our banking system; yet we cannot do without banks. Nearly all money today is simply bank credit. Economies run on it, and it is created when banks make loans. The main flaw in the current model is that private profiteers have acquired control of the credit spigots. They can cut off the flow, direct it to their cronies, and manipulate it for personal gain at the expense of the producing economy. The benefits of bank credit can be maintained while eliminating these flaws, through a system of banks operated as public utilities, serving the public interest and returning their profits to the public. This book looks at the public bank alternative, and shows with examples from around the world and through history that it works admirably well, providing the key to sustained high performance for the economy and well-being for the people”

    Tony

  21. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 11:00 am

    How about getting on radio up there? Can you get Craig on to the local station in Aberdeen, or is this all BBC led?

    On a good day and with the right amplification there is nowthing to stop Craig have a soapbox meeting outside, on the market, near the harbour, wherever the most people are walking about. This could be advertised on the radio gig…. just sayin’

  22. “the rum [UK?],in its own interests,will happily have a currency union”

    What is it about the word no that you don’t understand?

    “Currently accounts are guaranteed by the shared assets of the union, so Scotland,s share would cover any costs in the event of division”

    As no longer a member of the union (independence, remember?)Scotland would not have a share of UK assets.

    “If,my preferred option, scotland was forced into an independent currency”

    It’s unusual to have a preferred option that involves being forced into anything.

    You are in denial. The latest opinion poll shows Yes 35%, No 55%. There are only five weeks to go. The Yes campaign is haemorrhaging support. Salmond is scaring off voters with his failure to offer a coherent response to the currency issue. “I’m sure something will turn up” is not an adequate response. It was idiotic to announce the marriage without first consulting the bride.

    The SNP needs to act decisively and fast otherwise you may as well give up.

  23. deepgreenpuddock

    13 Aug, 2014 - 11:13 am

    A thought – if you wanted to be highly inflamm-a-tory. you could try to set up a meeting in Crathie (not to be confused with Crathes) which is the little village that is close to Balmoral and where the Queen attends sunday services at the local kirk.
    I once took my mother in law to see the queen there .(She liked that kind of thing).
    There was a crowd but from my elevated position I could see individuals who were strikingly different to the rest of the crowd and whose eyes did not follow the trajectory of the unfolding regal arrival. They kept their eyes firmly fixed on sections of the crowd.
    Even better would be a ‘Yes’ Scotland tent . I could sell my tee shirts there with the big arse of B.J, or Danny Alexander to kiss (exclusively a treat for No Voters). (If they ever get printed).
    a. the Lonach gathering. 23rd of August
    b. the Braemar Highland Games 6th September
    That would really be taking it to the heart of the establishment.

  24. YouKnowMyName

    13 Aug, 2014 - 11:16 am

    in obvious preparation for Craig’s Public Meetings the Uzbek SAS are training hard, and the Americans are moving heavy tanks to Norway!
    Should be quite an event!

  25. MJ
    If they declare no currency union then they are forcing an independent currency. I happento favour this as a first choice and would find it rich if the tripartite coalition did force it,which they won’t.
    The part of no l don,’t understand is all of it when used by coalition members, eg ‘no top down reorganisation of the NHS’
    I’m not in denial, I support true independence and have no need of polls to tell me which way to jump.
    Forgive the typos,I’m using one of those new fangled tablets for the first time.

  26. Here's a question

    13 Aug, 2014 - 11:45 am

    Paul,

    A ridiculous point as the rum,in its own interests,will happily have a currency union.

    Do you realise you are refusing to consider the possibility that there will be no currency union, and telling what will be another independent country what is in its interests>?

    The same costs they incur travelling to any other country,is bugger all.

    Have you ever been abroad, Paul? There’s a charge for buying foreign currencies. You can’t buy baguettes in Calais or potatoes in Dublin with GBPs.

    Of course it is. (…) You seem to have a rather too generous opinion of international financial institions and the ratings spiv. Fuck em.

    Did you know a country without their support will go bankrupt?

    For goodness sake, take off those rose-tinted spectacles, man!

    There’s nothing aggressive about any of the five questions.

  27. Here's a question

    13 Aug, 2014 - 11:46 am

    Anyone else care to answer any of the questions?

  28. Paul: if you want independence then having your own currency is not a choice, it’s a prerequisite.

    “The part of no l don,’t understand is all of it when used by coalition members, eg ‘no top down reorganisation of the NHS’”

    You’re clutching at straws. That was part of the Conservative manifesto. This is different. All three main parties have said no. If you’re gambling on the UK timidly caving in and changing its mind after a Yes vote then you still have to have a Plan B, just in case you miscalculated.

  29. MJ, what’s got into you? You used to make sense, but now you’re just spouting propagandistic nonsense. Are you playing devil’s advocate?

  30. Duchy of Savile

    13 Aug, 2014 - 12:10 pm

    MJ, you are talking out your ass, treating independence as a flash cutover. That is not how it happens in the world. (Unless you City of London parasites do a Milosevic and invade to keep your motley little empire. Even that worked out fine for the Slovenian freedom-fighters, as you know.)

    Monetary policy is only complicated when you let the bankers run it. Nothing stops government reserving money creation for itself. That is what you’re really scared of – the threat that Scotland does it right.

  31. YouKnowMyName

    13 Aug, 2014 - 12:13 pm

    answering vaguely the rUK option to use the Scottish Pound

    …remember that Sudan split in 2011. After the decision to secede was made, then the currency was planned.
    Scotland has not yet made the decision to split with the rUK.

    Nevertheless, the Sudan Pound was cloned into the South Sudan Pound at parity

    today, three years later, the values are approximately
    1 GBP = 5.03 SOUTH SUDANESE POUNDS (SSP)
    1 GBP = 10.15 SUDANESE POUNDS (SDG)

    With the UK ONS publishing details on the wonderful UK economy “At the end of June 2014, public sector net debt excluding financial interventions (PSND ex) was £1,304.6 billion” that’s £1.3Trillion debt, heading for £2.6Trillion debt in 2024.
    There’s no telling whether the rUK£ would remain at parity for long, or crash sooner than the Sudanese against the Ecosse£. How’s that for FUD – fear uncertainty & doubt?

  32. “treating independence as a flash cutover”

    Sorry, I don’t know what that means.

    “Nothing stops government reserving money creation for itself”

    Agreed, provided it has its own currency.

    “That is what you’re really scared of – the threat that Scotland does it right”

    Nothing about Scotland scares me in the slightest. In order for Scotland to do it right I believe it must have its own currency. No ifs or buts. I would applaud an announcement from Salmond to this effect. I don’t understand why the SNP didn’t adopt this policy from the very beginning. What’s the problem?

  33. Gibraltar is Independent and they use the Gib Pound. Seems to work.Westminster has no quarrel there.
    Scottish Pound will be fine.

  34. deepgreenpuddock

    13 Aug, 2014 - 12:41 pm

    replying to ‘Here’s a question’.
    The 85,000 guaranteee.
    Essentially that 85.000 guarantee is a ‘mythical’ or theoretical figure. Its intention is to damp down some local trouble. I am deeply sceptical that the UK could survive a financial meltdown of the scale that created a situation where everyone had to be compensated to that degree.
    In that scenario, what currency would the payments be made in if there was a financial meltdown of that order? Dollars? Euros? If there was to be a scenario where the entire (those with savings) population was to be compensated to that degree, it would mean that the currency had collapsed for reasons other than financial actions or inaction. A nuclear accident of huge proportions? a monumental natural event? At that point, whatever assets you hold are irrelevant .Tins of beans might become the new currency.

    So the realistic scenario is one where ‘a’ bank collapses because of some kind of insane cultish management, similar to the one at Northern Rock, and RBS where the policy of borrowing cheaper international money to finance more profitable home mortgages, hand gambling on property has led to the collapse of the bank due to changes in conditions.

    Did Northern Rock collapse in such a way that guaranteed pay-outs were paid? Essentially no. Did the guarantee stop a ‘run’ on the bank-well no. There was a run. Brown was as usual hopeless(despite saving the world) He actually saved the arses of some banking chums .
    Northern Rock should have been immediately nationalised.
    Eventually measures were taken that led to the liquidation of assets.Not everything was lost. Although the mortgage book fo the bank was suspect it was not worthless.Houses did not dissolve in the rain overnight.
    So what we are talking about is putting a measure in place to cover a limited difficulty, using some reserves, that all reasonably run governments have.It is there t provide a breathing space to allow people to go on functioning while the problem is managed to an appropriate conclusion
    I see no problem whatsoever in setting that up. It is a managerial and planning issue and one of financial prudence and while it would involve some work it is far from being beyond a country that Scotland would be, with a financially and economically literate and capable employment sector to draw upon to create these mechanisms.
    Adjustments of a structural kind would certainly be needed but these are manageable.
    The tone of your questions is such that it is intended to create a fear that there would be no money the day after a referendum and that the banks would collapse, all at once, as soon as there is a yes vote. There is an unstated implication in the question that Scotland is help[less and that the people are incapable.
    At the end of the day-Scotland is a place with good human resources, with mineral and other wealth, technical knowhow and good communications and with good educational and health and civil infrastructure ad god community relations. In reality it is these (partly hidden or unstated) assets that act as a guarantee.

  35. “Gibraltar is Independent and they use the Gib Pound”

    Gibraltar is not independent. It’s a British Overseas Territory, ie a colony. Is that what you want? You’d be able to keep the UK pound of course.

  36. Heresaquestion:
    I am not only not refusing to consider there not being a cu, I would welcome it.
    This goes for mj as well, plan b is an independent currency and it would be my plan a.

    Lots of folk in Eire hop across the border and bear these costs, if you want to buy a baguette in calais you convert your currency. No big deal unless your part of an international jet set that commutes internationally to do their shopping. Most of us do it where we live.

    A country that issues its debts in its own currency can’t go bankrupt.
    International lending institutions lend in dollars, why on earth would you want to borrow in a currency you do not control(which is the cu problem for junior partners). These institutions don’t ‘support’ countries, they exploit them.

    I’ll take off the rose tinted spectacles when you take off the blinders, and you get a brain transplant.

    MJ, I’m not clutching at straws, there’s a treasure trove of mendacity from the coalition to draw on if you wish to treat their statements as unreliable,even deceptive.

  37. “A country that issues its debts in its own currency can’t go bankrupt […] why on earth would you want to borrow in a currency you do not control(which is the cu problem for junior partners). These institutions don’t ‘support’ countries, they exploit them”

    At last: the case for independence and having your own currency. You ought to tell the SNP about it before it’s too late!

    “I’m not clutching at straws, there’s a treasure trove of mendacity from the coalition to draw on if you wish to treat their statements as unreliable,even deceptive”

    OK. Let’s keep our fingers crossed then and hope it all works out.

  38. Good one Craig. Get off the internet and onto the ground.

    I second Deepgreenpuddock’s proposal to take your Yes tour unexpectedly into “the heart of the establishment”. Not only will it shake them up you but you may force a scene that cannot be ignored. And you, more than other Yes speakers, may even swing a few votes in that environment.

    At this stage you got to be bold. Go on, jump in a car, grab a megaphone and ruffle some feathers. Don’t forget the arse t-shirts!

    Good luck with your tour whatever you do.

  39. MJ

    I have asked this before and you continually dodge the question.

    I quite accept that independence with own currency is better in the long and even medium term, though I see advantages in the short term to using the pound.

    But there are many many advantages beyond the fiscal to breaking up the UK and denting the Westminster political establishment. What I can’t understand is this – and you absolutely refuse to give a straight answer.

    Why do you think voting No in the referendum, with all the comfort that would bring to the establishment working so hard for it, is better than voting yes? Is an flawed independence that can be a stepping stone, not better than the status quo? Why are you such a strong advocate of the status quo?

    Please answer that without any evasions about supporting “real” independence. Do you follow the Communist Party line about Scottish independence threatening the unity of the British working class?

  40. MJ, OK, you’re arguing that Scotland should have its own currency. Scotland only gets choices about its currency if it becomes independent. Are you arguing that the Scottish Government shouldn’t become independent of Westminster unless it declares for a separate currency from the start; that there’s something wrong with deciding about currency later?

  41. droit de Savile

    13 Aug, 2014 - 1:37 pm

    MJ’s wilful obtuseness is intended to stall Scotland’s assertion of self-determination, which is prior to and independent of technical policy decisions like monetary policy. Why does he follow the British propaganda line and fixate on monetary policy? Because this is Tory/Labor propaganda aimed at petit-bourgeois financial insecurities. It’s the same as if he said, “Before we declare independence we MUST define our taxi regulations and design our military uniforms and decorations!” To fall for this nonsense you’d have to be an inbred Harrow old boy or something.

  42. Gib is maybe a colony but Scotland would be a next door territory with oil.A good friend to have if RUK wants it.
    Scotland wants a currency Union, Westminster says no, so peg your pound to the Pound next door until needs demand a change.The only thing that would demand a change is the RUK pound becoming unstable.
    Carney had no problems with Salmonds proposals,and that is who he would have to deal with in the future.And they are a private company with private interests.Westminster parties are all acting like baby in a pram with a rattle.
    If Scotland had a mainly service based economy like England I would be worried.Fortunately they produce and have an educated workforce.There’s the currency.

  43. MJ
    ‘OK let’s keep our fingers crossed and hope it works out’

    Glib and desperate.
    Unless your working on time travel or precognition, that’s all any of us can do.

    Look at it as a win win situation:
    Vote yes
    Win
    Coalirion sticks resolutely to its heartfelt principles
    Introduce own currency
    Double bubble for us both

    :-)

  44. “Why do you think voting No in the referendum, with all the comfort that would bring to the establishment working so hard for it, is better than voting yes?”

    Because the SNP’s policies are so flawed they will likely cause even greater hardship. I’m in favour of Scottish independence but opposed to the SNP’s frankly amateurish handling of key issues. I thought I’d said that several times before.

    “Is an flawed independence that can be a stepping stone, not better than the status quo?”

    No, because you’ll get eaten alive in the interim and it will cease to be a stepping stone.

    “Why are you such a strong advocate of the status quo?”

    I’m not. I’m simply acknowledging that the status quo can be a fearsome opponent and it will fight dirty to protect itself.

    “Do you follow the Communist Party line about Scottish independence threatening the unity of the British working class?”

    I don’t follow the Communist Party line on anything. In fact I didn’t know it still existed. That idea sounds stupid to me.

    Are those answers straight enough for you?

  45. Amateurish compared to who?
    Who sets the benchmark for excellence in key issues?

  46. Paul: if you think Salmond’s handling of the currency issue has been anything other than painfully amateurish then good luck to you.

  47. I find it funny that people talk of a currency union as if it were in the power of Scottish nationalists to impose it upon an unwilling UK. I cannot imagine that Westminster would make any statement indicating that it will or will not accomodate a currency union. So nationalists cannot dismiss the issue. I suspect that Westminster will want to encourage uncertainty with its attendant fear of the unknown to support a NO outcome.

    Just to be clear — the UK controls its own currency (duh!) and that control has some influence on any economy that uses that currency. If the UK does not want Scotland to share the same currency, what can Scotland do? Print counterfeit pounds? The closest thing to currency union it can impose is produce a Scottish Pound that is tied to the BP at parity with a solid guarantee. But then it has to back it’s own currency with something of real value.

  48. That’s what they chose, I don’t agree but the question is self determination and no one else is offering it.
    I’m deeply grateful for your pity, but I’d rather have an answer to my question, who available meets your exacting standards in key issues?

  49. “I cannot imagine that Westminster would make any statement indicating that it will or will not accomodate a currency union”

    It already has. The answer was no thanks.

    “I suspect that Westminster will want to encourage uncertainty with its attendant fear of the unknown to support a NO outcome”

    No need. Salmond is managing just fine by himself.

  50. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    13 Aug, 2014 - 3:00 pm

    When civilian deaths reach Gazan levels, maybe we’ll pay attention.

    http://rt.com/news/180020-ukraine-death-toll-un/

  51. Saville's last shag

    13 Aug, 2014 - 3:11 pm

    Notice how MJ shifts the ground after failing the laugh test with his currency bugaboos. Now the problem gets personalized as the cartoon bumbler Salmond because of unspecified “key” issues, as though these issues can’t be settled democratically in an emerging independent state. MJ cannot talk about Scotland’s legal right of self-determination. He’s got nothing but divert, divert, divert.

  52. “He’s got nothing but divert, divert, divert”

    Divert from what, the real issues? What are they?

  53. doug scorgie

    13 Aug, 2014 - 3:58 pm

    MJ
    13 Aug, 2014 – 1:58 pm

    “Because the SNP’s policies are so flawed they will likely cause even greater hardship. I’m in favour of Scottish independence but opposed to the SNP’s frankly amateurish handling of key issues. I thought I’d said that several times before.”

    Read this s-l-o-w-l-y MJ. A yes vote in the referendum is not, repeat NOT, a vote for the SNP.

    After independence there will be an election and, just like before, you can vote for who you want.

  54. “A yes vote in the referendum is not, repeat NOT, a vote for the SNP”

    So folks keep saying. The point is that the policies implemented on day one are absolutely crucial to how things will unfold in the future. Whether you like it or not the SNP is going to be responsible for those policies.

  55. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 4:24 pm

    You are ssuming that Hollyrod politics and demeanour will copy the bull mastiff methods of Westminsters odorous, pompous and corrupt practise MJ.

    Just look at the two sides and then see who is more relaxed, non threatening and honest about their suggestions, who manages to deliver a debate that is not led by fear and negativity or is arranged, hallo oh so important Jim Naughty, by pre-invited and coaxed audiences.

  56. Republicofscotland

    13 Aug, 2014 - 4:30 pm

    Well done Craig for taking it to the masses, when all is said and done, many many years from now, long after independence is gained, your name will be one of many that is remembered fondly.

    For without bloggers like yourself, and others like Rev Campbell, Lallands Peat Worrier, Scot goes Pop, Munguins Republic and many many more, we wouldn’t be teetering on the precipice of victory, as we are now.

    Some might say I’m overly cocky about victory, but I truly believe yes is in front when it comes to the polls.

  57. Come on MJ,
    Who gets your coveted imprimatur on key issues?
    Are they offering independence?
    Are they offering currency independence?
    You’re in danger of coming across as quite the little fusspot, or a complete shithead.

  58. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 4:35 pm

    here is an issue. When the Tory deliver their referendum on the EU membership, i.e ‘do you want to leave the EU’, and every inept voter votes to get out of the EU, what do you think those multinational companies do who currently using the good ship Britain as their entry into the vastly profitable EU market?

    With an Independent Scotland that remains in the EU, these companies would definately consider relocating, using the well trained and eager scottish workforce. Now these facts have not even been discussed, have they.

    Companies are not just here to use the City of London, rapidly diminishing itself by being antisocial, they want to sell and trade, whether this is via an Independent Scotland, maybe offering better terms than their Irish neighbours, or any other country that will have them.

    But for a fast efficient change Scotland can press all the buttons and hence is a favourite to succeed.
    Consider that before you vote. Independence has got all the aces for a sustainable Scotland.
    Whilst England will free float in front of the New Jersey coast.
    BTW+o/T, the housing bubble is about to burst, starting everywhere else but in London.

  59. Watching the Referendum get closer,I see the Westminster mafia showing us what kind of a union it is and will be if we say no.
    They are childish and avoiding the issues and issuing threats.
    I can understand they want the Union to remain, but they should also be preparing for the possibility at least that Scotland says Yes and then respect democracy and work together so that both nations get the best out of it.Salmond has said time and again he wants to work together with RUK, and he thinks it our independence will benefit democracy in England and Wales.
    Westminster has said,it’s our navy ,we’re keeping the ships,our RAF we’ll keep all the jets,our pound & it’s our ball and you’re no playing.
    Not very responsible or grown up is it ?

  60. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 5:03 pm

    Sorry O/T, but there are moves afoot to widen the conflict to Syria.

    Up to now we have taken their words for it, we have not seen the US bomb and destroy Isis fighting units. ISIS are proxy supporters of the US who is desperate to lay its hands on to Syrian and northern Iraqi oilfields, they have been for years working there.

    Isis is holding 49 Turkish prisoners taken from Mosuls Turkish consulate, further connecting the tissues of an all out war. Whence Turkey has come out of its electoral fever, Erdogan, the most likely winner, will put his country on alert. He could focus on Isis in Syria due to his refugee crisis, leaving the door open for other NATO actions.

    Assad is pounding Aleppo and the refugees fleeing to Turkey some 50 mile down the road are causing a headache for Erdogan. How long before the US will be pursuing Isis into Syrian territory and find that they are confronted with Assads airforce?

    The middle east is well alight and Iran is to the right of Irbil.

    sorry its in German, try your best….;)
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/dschihadisten-vormarsch-von-is-in-syrien-bringt-tuerkei-in-not-a-985914.html

  61. Paul: sorry to be the party-pooper. I guess it’s not really any of my business. I can’t help thinking however that right now, at this crucial stage, the Yes campaign could do with a few fusspots of its own. You need a cool, sober hand on the tiller for a start. You can’t all be having a good knees-up. The ship is drifting towards the rocks. Remember: Yes 35%, No 55%. Five weeks to go.

  62. That’s red ed milliband,this era’s Michael foot ,recently seen posing with a copy of the sun newspaper?

  63. You’re not being a party pooper any more than you are answering my question.

  64. May the event increase people’s genuine understanding of an independent Scotland’s true likely viability, if their banks screw up without London to bail them out. :)

  65. Do you mean these questions? I thought they were rhetorical:

    “Who gets your coveted imprimatur on key issues?
    Are they offering independence?
    Are they offering currency independence?”

    There’s only the SNP isn’t there? Independence isn’t even on the table.

  66. Yes, MJ those questions.

    Very straightforward ones, I thought.

    The question on the referendum ballot is:
    Should Scotland be an independent country?

    I believe the SNP are encouraging us to vote yes

  67. Well vote yes then. Or no.

  68. Here's a question

    13 Aug, 2014 - 5:53 pm

    “Essentially that 85.000 guarantee is a ‘mythical’ or theoretical figure.”

    Sigh. The EU demand it.

    I am deeply sceptical that the UK could survive a financial meltdown of the scale that created a situation where everyone had to be compensated to that degree.

    You’re probably right. It would be of more use if one big bank when bust. All the banks buy insurance. That’s what it’s about.

    You are of course just arguing that it’s irrelevant, because supporters of independence can’t answer the question, not even at Holyrood, where in fact this has been asked. You’ve decided you’re for ‘independence’, so any hard question must be irrelevant and the cognitive dissonance kicks in.

    In that scenario, what currency would the payments be made in if there was a financial meltdown of that order? Dollars? Euros?

    The currency the bank accounts are in. The £85,000 figure is in fact a conversion from €100,000. So if a poond is worth half a GBP then the protection would have to be to 170,000 poonds.

    Meltdown of that order“?

    If there was to be a scenario where the entire (those with savings) population was to be compensated to that degree, it would mean that the currency had collapsed for reasons other than financial actions or inaction. A nuclear accident of huge proportions? a monumental natural event? At that point, whatever assets you hold are irrelevant .Tins of beans might become the new currency.

    They might indeed – I agree.

  69. I will be voting yes, and my vote will not be based on opinion polls, or whether a fellow believer in independence:
    doesn’t rate alex salmond,
    Can forsee terrible consequences,
    Luridly talks of ships nearing rocks
    And can’t answer a straight question.

    It’ll be based on my own opinion.

  70. Here's a question

    13 Aug, 2014 - 6:04 pm

    I’ll be voting “no” because I’ve thought about and formed an opinion of probable consequences of a “yes” majority.

    Paul – it’s not just your “fellow believers” who can’t answer the questions convincingly; it’s you yourself. I don’t think you get this banking stuff much.

  71. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    13 Aug, 2014 - 6:09 pm

    “.Tins of beans might become the new currency.”

    Taking this out of the ethnocentrism, that’s a global issue. What happens to the Euro/pound when Petrodollar breathes it’s last? Better stock that pantry.

  72. Here’s a question:

    The EU demand it because the banks couldn’t work without it. Its a backstop for the banks,not the punters.

    Better bank regulation , including people like sir fredly shredly sewing mailbags for a good stretch, will do more for the common folk than underwriting these crooks.

    Better bank regulation is not on offer in the united kingdom. An independent country would be wise to concentrate on it.

  73. “MJ, OK, you’re arguing that Scotland should have its own currency. Scotland only gets choices about its currency if it becomes independent. Are you arguing that the Scottish Government shouldn’t become independent of Westminster unless it declares for a separate currency from the start; that there’s something wrong with deciding about currency later?”

    Yes, obviously, the people of Scotland have a right to know what they are voting for before they vote.

    I see people here who will have no say in the matter saying “Scotland could do this” or “Scotland could do that”. That isn’t good enough, the people who will be doing the deciding should be telling us now exactly what they intend to do.

    Now that Westminster has stated that there will be no currency union the Scottish government should tell us exactly what their currency would be and exactly how it would affect the price of potatoes so we can make a decision based on facts not faith.

  74. There is a Massive Disconnect going on here..and it is because normal human relationships are breaking down…because hardly anyone will tell the truth about anything really important..We all know that something Terrible is Going On..but we don’t really know what it is..but it Really is Not that hard to work it it out…and have the courage to say..well what you have analysed in great detail…about what is going on…

    Just tell The Truth – Regardless of The Consequences….

    Do you want me to tell you…

    Or will you think I am mad…

    As you probably can’t spend 10 years finding out the real history of the world – which is not as simple as you may think it is..and you keep on trying to find out…where the problem is…coming from…..

    Just switch off from this complete and utter bizzarre artificial reality we are programmed with…

    Meet Real People – Camping at Festivals – and Dance and Make Love…

    But Don’t Mention 9/11

    You Wimps Can’t Handle It.

    These Fuckers Are Really Evil.

    But Most People are Really Nice.

    If We don’t stand up to them..They Will Kill Us All.

    Wake Up.

    Tony

  75. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    13 Aug, 2014 - 6:28 pm

    “Or will you think I am mad…”

    Yes. It’s quite barmy to solicit good will amongst people. It’s much more fun to alienate others, even within a narrow band of what’s agreed upon. It seems the ‘something Terrible going on’ seeks and succeeds at creating divisions amongst those who probably agree on the Big Picture, but niggle and dispute with minutiae just for the purpose of seeming important, as though what matters is personal animosities.

    That Dark Force seems to have us all in it’s grip. I think that’s they way they like it.

  76. ‘I don’t think you get this banking stuff much’

    I do, and you come across as completely ignorant of its nature and its mechanics. Worrying about what happens when bank goes bust is just plain stupid.

    Modern banking is basically completely corrupt, its higher echelons consider themselves above the law and know their fuck ups will be made good by their political servants.
    The EU has plenty of stupid ideas, and transforming Europe into one giant life support system for crooked,degenerate bankers is probably its worst.

    Worried about how a country will cope when one of these criminal entities collapses under the weight of its own bullshit?
    Why not worry about preventing it in the first place?

    Sighing like Scarlett O’Hara doesn’t make you any kind of authority. It just makes you come over as a condescending,but basically stupid,prick.

    And anyway,what questions have I failed to answer?

  77. My Wife and I both Retired 10 Years ago. Neither of Us Claim Benefits – though I do have a Pension from My Former Employer…

    I am now eating my Evening Meal

    Its an assortment of Vegetables including The Very Best Potatoes I Have Ever Tasted in My Life…

    I Did Not Catch The Fish….

    But My Wife Grew All The Vegetables – with The Help of Her Friends on Both The Community and Private Allotments…

    Now That is INDEPENDENCE

    It’s The Good Life

    Why Don’t You Stop Writing Crap on The Internet – and Get Off Your Arse and Volunteer – and Do Something Useful…

    She Promotes it Too…

    How Could She Not…

    She is The Best Looking Peasant Girl There…

    Yes it Is O.K. if You Take My Photograph..and Show Everyone What I am Doing…

    In The Local Newspapers and Internet…

    Do You Want To See The Photographs…

    This is Not a BBC Series…

    This is Real

    Tony

  78. Scotland has said what their currency will be Fred.You ,like Westminster ,just don’t listen.
    Salmond would want a currency union. Numpties say Not !! Then use the pound anyways.
    I believe its called pegging.

  79. Here’s a question sounds like a right Banker. We do know what you guys are up to.
    Banks are exeptional and can’t go bust !! No matter how bad the business goes… the MD’s just keep on going ,not for our good ,but theirs. It’s a pile of sh** and its protected by the 3 party system.

  80. Re referendums.
    As unionists are trained to say, a Yes would result in a Salmond dictatorship. Does this mean that Cameron will be a dictator for life if he wins his in/out Euro referendum in 2015?

  81. I just found the biggest Slug of My Life…Eating One of My Wife’s Plants…I Brought it In Our Home To Show My Wife…I was going to say…would You Like Some Really Nice Meat…No Poisonous Additives…It is The Healthiest Slug I Have Ever Seen in My Wife…

    But She is On The Phone To One of Her Friends…

    I thought No I can’t Eat It…and I cant Kill it…

    Its as Big as a Turd…So I flushed it Down The Toilet…

    The Rats Can Eat It…

    Normally Our Birds Do The Job

    Tony

  82. deepgreenpuddock

    13 Aug, 2014 - 7:16 pm

    Mr Here’s a question
    You are being disingenuous.
    OK i might have used the word ‘arbitrary’ although that is not quite right either, as the figure is a guesstimate of the appropriate level of compensation to allow people to recover in the event of a bank going belly-up. A few people would lose a lot of money. Those with in excess of 85,000 deposits.
    However you skip the point that the figure is arrived at in some kind of pragmatic way to minimise the disruption a bank run can cause.Indeed it is a measure to reduxce the risk f a bank run. I have no doubt that Bankers and economists and accountants and regulatory authorities from various countries have arrived at the figure by looking at various figures related to savings and deposits, and the burden on banks, and on governments, and so on. So the figure is a theoretical one. You woud be pretty pissed off if you had just received a cash sum of 2000,000 (say a pension pot temporarily lodged in a bank and were then compensated only to the tune of 85,000.
    That person would not give up on the missing 115,000.The bank would still be liable.
    As i said it would not be a difficult piece of administration to set up this mechanism in the event of a yes vote.
    Finally you also ignored the point that a country’s treasure or value . That is made up of many different elements but the peple is an important part of the equation. The employability and educational status is part of the equation.The demographic factors are quite crucial. Scotland undoubtedly occupies a place in that group of nations such as Netherlands Denmark,Ireland, Sweden,and RUK and switzerland, with a mix of liabilities and assets, advantages and disadvantages both natural and man-made.
    I would not want to argue about where in that group Scotland lies but it is certainly ‘attached ‘ to the Western European model and would not be an exceptional case.
    Scotland has real value and it would be able to apply that value to matters such as underwriting the banking guarantee .However it also would have the potential to legislate to regulate the banking sector. It is not at all inconceivable that the banking sector could be better regulated in Scotland than in England/rUK, where housing bubbles are manufactured to save the skins of whatever group of unaccountable shysters are in place at the time.
    We are really talking about here about ways to address the deficit in accountability within the political system and the opportunity to become the masters of your own destinies. Is that not a great prize to be grasped without hesitation?
    Go on you know you can-just vote yes-dinna be feart , ya big galoot.

  83. Ben-American Fascist Flechette,

    The Dark Forces haven’t got me in their Grip…I Do Not Talk Politics To My Friends and Angels…

    They are Innocent, and I do not want them being Corrupted.

    I once herard some completely horrible news and I knew it was true…

    Even My Best Angel Friend – who is Extremely Well Trained..said Tony…I Can’t Take That…Please do not tell me..but I already had…

    It was about 6 years ago…and I had read what…The KSA and The Israel’s were Doing To My Ex’s Cousins in Serbia…

    You Know..Capturing…The Most Beautiful Teenage Boys and Girls in The World…in the shadow of a war…

    And Killing Them For Their Organs…

    For Organ Transplants

    I Never Told My Ex and Never Will

    We all Met on Sunday and Got on Extremely Well

    I hadn’t seen her for 33 years.

    Can You Take That HORROR

    I find it Really Hard

    and it is Only The Intrinsic Beauty of Most of the The Human Race..That Keeps Me Going…

    You See. I haven’t Given Up…

    But I can’t tell everyone I know How Evil These People Are…

    They can’t take it…and Neither Should They..

    Someone Around Here Has To Be Strong

    Where are You???

    Any Men Here?

    Tony

  84. “Scotland has said what their currency will be Fred.You ,like Westminster ,just don’t listen.
    Salmond would want a currency union. Numpties say Not !! Then use the pound anyways.
    I believe its called pegging.”

    So an independent Scotland would surrender all control over their currency and monetary policy to another country?

    Then that is what the leaflets falling through people’s letter boxes should say.

  85. Now here’s Fred at 6:15, chiming in to make the impetuous Scots suss out every jot and tittle before they make a move. Exactly. Exactly.

    Before it’s over Fred will be carping, But what national holidays are we to have? What hygrometric standards are we going to use for commingled grain stores? How high are the sleeping policemen going to be? Which thistle variety are we to choose for the flags: acanthium or gautieri? Anything to keep you from taking a position on self-determination of the people.

    Yes means, Fuck your pathetic British ragbag, butlers to America, punching above your spavined fly-weight at helpless wogs. Torturers, aggressors, cowards for impunity, a disgrace to all the peoples of the world, and no fit country for the Scottish.

  86. “Now here’s Fred at 6:15, chiming in to make the impetuous Scots suss out every jot and tittle before they make a move. Exactly. Exactly. ”

    I think currency is an important issue and those being asked to decide have a right to know.

    Was there any reason you didn’t want them to know?

  87. In time there will be a Scot’s pound inevitably as Westminster deservedly implodes as deep-rooted corruption there is insoluble and the stench become intolerable. In the meantime after independence, all the evidence from similar arrangements existing around the world of fully-tradeable currencies shared is that the different national economies work counter-cyclically to stabilise the working currency. Independent Scotland’s proposed policies will help the UK and if the UK scraps Trident rather than relocates it, saving the renewal and operating costs (they still have many other cruder older nuclear weapon types stored I believe at Dundrennan in Scotland, which they must also scrap or relocate) then the UK will reap huge benefits in doing so, enough to put the r-UK’s NHS on a sound publicly-owned basis for a hundred years or more.

    Though Tories or Labour will try keep the costly rented from the US and controlled by the US Trident, the only say over which the UK has is whether to use Pledge or Mr Sheen to polish it with, and even if they made such necessary and obvious savings, are determined still to hive off all of the NHS to faceless mainly US based corporations in return for plum jobs and wads of dosh. The NHS sell-off in process in r-UK is reaching a point of no return; after Scotland votes Yes, Cameron can be given no choice but an immediate GE and England, Wales, Northern Ireland need real political choices other than their indistinguishable Tory or Labour torturers and tormentors – a rescue the NHS, scrap Trident and rebuild a productive manufacturing economy Coalition- the bent broken all eggs in one basket financial-sector casino economy’s vital signs being absent and the undertakers shuffling their feet impatiently.

  88. Fred: If the pound looks like failing it’ll be dropped like lead. If it remains stable then Scotland will keep it, it’s more control than Scotland has now.
    Oil prices have nothing to do with the pound. They’ll be sold for whatever the world price and oil currency is at the time.Unstable pound,switch to Swiss Francs. Oh it’s pegged to an unstable €uro,let’s peg to the Renminbi.
    Don’t worry ,your croft and internet connection will be safe in an independent Scotland.Yer coos might no be so scabby n all.

  89. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    13 Aug, 2014 - 8:58 pm

    Tony; We do what we can, but you can’t just volunteer at a food bank and be done with it. Politics is woven through all human activities.

    Right now I’m trying to get the truth from my elected local leaders on a proposed new prison (Privatized, of course). Both the Planning Commission and City Council have declared their ignorance of such. My own research revealed it has been approved (2011) but is being held up because the State has disciplined the city for not following through on faulty water treatment. As a result, all new permits for construction including the prison and a housing development are being held up. City council meeting tonight. My wife is going with me to keep me from being arrested. Yet these public servants have no knowledge of a prison being built in their tiny community. Right now I’m waiting for a response to email about when the public meeting was held, if any. I need that for the meeting, but it’s not essential.

    Here’s the thing. Any non=profit has to fight these same hooligans. Back-room deals and payola, along with patronage is the devil we know. You have to get them by the neck to get their attention. That’s politics 101 for living life large.

  90. großer witz

    13 Aug, 2014 - 8:59 pm

    Fecken Engerlesh bastards! Yous have conquered us, oppressed us, humiliated us for centuries. And now we have the chance to get rid of yous we are going to vote..

    And we are going to vote Noooo.

    Fecken hilarious!

  91. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:04 pm

    As I’ve said before, I have no dog in this particular fight, but I have found the exchanges on the referendum and the consequences of Scottish independence interesting.

    This thread is instructive as regards the “mechanics” of this blog, for the following reason.

    Here’s a Question and Jane T have posed five rather pertinent (and important) questions.

    The immediate responses are:

    “The 3 ‘question’ comments above (7:50, 8:01 & 8:02) all came from the same IP address. They all seem to be from the same person.” (my reaction: so what? The questions are all valid; why does it matter id they are from one, two, or even five different people?)

    “It seems like McTernans unitrolls are busy.” (my reaction : the typical evasive insult from someone who cannot or won’t answer valid questions)

    “The Bitter Together attack dogs could at least have the decency to frame their ‘questions’ to Craig in a less aggressive manner.” (my reaction : nothing aggressive about those questions; a typical arse-licking “answer” from Lady Dorking)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The only coherent attempt at an answer – but to only one of the five questions – is from Deepgreenpuddock. All the others are either insults, evasions, deviations onto other themes (I saw something about Syria from SS Police General Nebelmind!)or “answers” to questions other than the five put in the table.

    I also notice – to my regret – that Craig, every second of whose posts in now about the referendum and Scottish independence – some of which very detailed – has not yet essayed a serious answer to those questions.

    Only a very stupid person will not draw certain conclusions from this sorry spectacle.

  92. God save the Pedos

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:05 pm

    “Right to know.” Well, goodness. Babbling rights baby-talk now! There’s nothing to know yet. That is for a sovereign Scottish people to decide in accordance with the democratic standards of ICCPR Article 25 clause b, when they are no longer subject to City-of-London corruption or coercion.

    Quite fearful for your modest means, aren’t you? If you need to be assured of Pound notes emblazoned with Savile’s portrait, or dick, or whatever, then perhaps you’re not ready for independence. England will doubtless take you back. Just remember never turn your back on Her Highness!

  93. Not another one! What’s the point?

    13 August 2014 Last updated at 18:15
    Scottish independence: BBC confirms Salmond-Darling debate
    Mr Salmond and Mr Darling clashed in a televised debate hosted by STV last week

    Continue reading the main story
    Scotland Decides
    What’s making voters switch sides?
    What’s going on in Scotland?
    Check out the latest polls
    How to register to vote

    The BBC has confirmed it is to broadcast a live referendum debate between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling on 25 August.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28780811k

  94. großer witz

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:23 pm

    Na canny. Na canny see what’s wrong with yous Engerlesh bastard paedos. We’s prood Scots ha ne’er, ne’er any a paedo amongst our ranks. And when we have had a bastard war criminal paedo, it’s still the fault of yous British Bastards. Cuz we’re Scots.

  95. This currency fixation is of course the Zionazi “nation-building”gambit applied to Britain’s own colony, Scotland. In place of Palestine’s National Plan, blue-penciled and niggled till the cows come home and then abruptly obstructed to blow deadlines in the nick, Scots are instructed to define a currency in advance – so that crooked English toffs can piss on it and send the Scots repeatedly back to the drawing board, balking Scottish self-determination into the twilight of the Holocene era. Fuck that. The nasal whining of Britain’s currency obsessives is one last attempt to rig the rules while they still can.

  96. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:37 pm

    looks like the unionist schoolmaster has awoken from his stupor.

    Our resident paedolovekuk called me a Nazi, he who admired him all his life, keeping his lederhosen SS outfit ready for when Moishe comes to visit.
    Listen to his hobnail boots clicking. Look fuckface, you call me a Nazi and I call you a murderous paedo, that should do it.
    Vote No and you get more of these UNIONIST PAEDO COVER UPPERS, vote yes and you can get rid of them.

  97. Scotland has ~ 5.5 Million people.
    700,000 postal votes have just been sent out.
    Sounds like Westminster is preparing for a Karzai type ballot.

  98. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:40 pm

    If the polls which indicate that Yes voting intentions have declined to around 35% and the Noes are at over 60 % are anywhere near correct, I’m beginning to see what’s behind most of the outpourings on this and similar threads.

    The words “frustration” and “bad losers” come to mind.

  99. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:45 pm

    Ingo Kartoffelfresser :

    “looks like the unionist schoolmaster has awoken from his stupor.”
    ___________________

    Whaddya mean, stupor? I’ve been having a great time, lots of beach volley and tennis and so on. Active as a flea! :)

    You should get out a little more, Teppichfresser.

    *********************

    La vita è bellissima, life is great!

  100. So what, I ask myself, are the Americans bombing in north western Iraq?

    The media focus is on the aid, not the bombing, so the short answer has to be: not very much.

    ISIS is a useful tool for isolating Syria from any Iraqi or Iranian assistance. With that buffer in place – patrolled by US air power, don’t forget – watch the war in Syria flare up again.

    ISIS came from Jordan – called there by the Saudis; trained and armed by the US and Israel.

    Damascus first; Tehran second. Same as it ever was.

  101. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:51 pm

    DoNNyDunCE

    “Sounds like Westminster is preparing for a Karzai type ballot.”
    ___________________

    I think you’ve spotted it, Donny!

    But tell us more – who’s orchestrating the ballot rigging? Is it MI5, the world wide Zionist conspiracy (leader: Anchel Rothschild (deceased)), the Windsor Reptile Family (leader: Queen Liz(ard)) or the British League of Paedophiles?

  102. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    13 Aug, 2014 - 9:53 pm

    Mike

    “So what, I ask myself, are the Americans bombing in north western Iraq?”
    ___________________

    I don’t know, Mike.

    But I do know that you should be asking yourself this on a more appropriate thread.

    Twit!

  103. Another favorite trick of the Queen’s courtiers is to cherry-pick an unspecified and unsourced poll to prove that No is going to prevail, so nyah, nyah nyah, or something. This is particularly effective with the Viscount Moncktons of the world, all trivium and no quadrivium, the sort who gloat in triumph on every sultry day because that means global warming is disproved. Numerate people, on the other hand – people who are able to grasp probability as well as count to 100 – these people take a rigorous look at the evidence and learn that the central tendency of the probability distribution of independence is…

    http://www.dailynews724.com/politics/scottish-independence-vote-too-close-to-call-h186960.html

    49 percent? plus or minus 5 per cent at the 95% CI?! Impossible to call?

    This is astonishing. Not because the calculations are counterintuitive – Bayesian analysis is straightforward for educated persons. But that independence can hold its own against the bottomless mendacity and manipulative capacity of the British oligarchy and its servile press, that is hard to believe.

  104. “Another favorite trick of the Queen’s courtiers is to cherry-pick an unspecified and unsourced poll to prove that No is going to prevail”

    Here you go, all the polls since 2011. The very latest (Survation/Scottish Daily Mail) gives Yes 37%, No 50%. Note how little change there has been over three years:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

  105. The sooner this bloody referendum is over the better. Sad to see that some of those supporting the Yes Campaign are already lining up reasons as to why they failed, not just on this blog but on a number of others. If the No Campaign does win I hope that Alex Salmond has the good grace to acknowledge he failed to pursuade the people of Scotland and calls on his supporters to recognise the result rather than indulge in years of recrimination and the pursuit of half baked conspiracy theories. I am far more concerned about how communities in Scotland pull together after the referendum, regardless of the result.

  106. Bless me,MJ,its like you almost want our side to lose.
    That and your ‘no true independent scotchman ‘ bullshit makes me think you that is what you want.
    Polls are product, you get what you pay for.

  107. Mick

    I fear I do not believe your last sentence. You aim vituperation solely at Alex Salmond; you have no criticism of the No campaign. You do not want reconciliation after the result, whatever it is. That is a plain pious lie. You want the Yes side to lose and then to grovel.

  108. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    13 Aug, 2014 - 11:54 pm

    Yawn

  109. Oh dear, one must have hurt the fee-wings of little MJ, since at 11:08 he’s barfed up great moist chunks of undigested data – from Wikipedia, no less, the royal road to ignoramus status, beloved by conniving government apparatchiks – quite puked it out on the floor, blop, as though questions of its proper analysis went right over his head.

    Tell me. MJ, what do you make of the third moment of the polling distribution, and its potential implications for surprises?

    Hmmm?

  110. Craig,

    I haven’t witnessed any No Campaigners preparing their excuses in the event of losing the referendum, probably due to the fact that they are ahead in the polls. I have witnessed Yes supporters doing so, on this blog, on others, in the workplace and even in the pub. Therefore it stands to reason to hope that Alex Salmond, as leader of the Yes Campaign, would call on his supporters not to go down that route if the No side does win. Furthermore, I have witnessed this debate first hand in Scotland, something which you have decided not to do, and I have seen the divisions that it has caused. Therefore my desire for the referendum to be over and done with is genuine, as is my desire for communities to come together after the 18th of September. Call me a liar if you wish but given my explanation above it is a baseless insult.

  111. If there is a NO outcome, will the referendum become an annual or bi-annual event until the correct answer is found ? Will Scotland adopt it’s own time standard and not alter to BST GMT as currently dictated by London. How about drivng on the right ? Sweden used to drive on the left then they moved over to line up with Europe (and USA ???)

  112. “Tell me. MJ, what do you make of the third moment of the polling distribution, and its potential implications for surprises?”

    Don’t understand the question. First you complained about folk cherry-picking unspecified and unsourced polls, so I provided you with a link to all the polls, each one nicely specified and sourced and then you complain about that! There’s no pleasing some people.

  113. ‘There’s no pleasing some people’

    A little rich coming from someone as picky as you

  114. If there is a NO outcome, will the referendum become an annual or bi-annual event until the correct answer is found ?

    Do you remember the Irish referendum on EU?

    Soon after the inccorect answer there was another referendum and the outcome was classifes and endorsed as “correct”!

    =====

    ON the issue of the IS formerly iSIS evidently the Macedonian lines of refugees all getting kicked out of (was it Croatia, or Slovenia?) that went on the telly for days on end are not going to be repeated over there in Irbil.

    The numbers of refugees from gigantic has climbed down to “in single figure of thousands”. This could be due to the convoy on its way to Ukraine, after all there is no need to start a shooting war if it is going to go nuclear?

    I should earn a living as a pundit, but I don’t genuflect and thus disqualified from the champagne and caviare circuit, although I must admit I prefer my bread and cheap margarine (huh used to be cheap).

    The Assad overthrow front just could not afford the cowboy tactics of going in all guns blazing, if the other side has got bigger guns.

    Now watch the quick de-escalation and the iSIS disappearing to Yemen or some other place in the area.

  115. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    14 Aug, 2014 - 2:14 am

    ” Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, served notice on Washington: “You should know, you defender of the cross, that getting others to fight on your behalf will not do for you in Syria as it will not do for you in Iraq.”

    The U.S. corporate media were more interested in the rest of al-Baghdadi’s message, in which he warned Washington that “soon enough, you will be in direct confrontation – forced to do so, God willing. And the sons of Islam have prepared themselves for this day. So wait, and we will be waiting, too.” For most self-obsessed Americans, this was received as a threat to attack “the Homeland.” However, downtown Manhattan is not on the Caliphate leader’s map. Al-Baghdadi meant that the American strategy of financing Muslim muppets to fight imperialism’s wars is kaput, and that the Pentagon will soon have to do its own dirty work, dressed in “Crusader” uniform”

    http://blackagendareport.com/content/empire-reaps-jihadist-whirlwind

    Also needed; a re-boot on the Security apparatus.

  116. Gaza begins tense five-day truce
    Palestinian man in rubble of apartment complex, Gaza photo
    Israel and the Palestinians begin a fresh five-day ceasefire in Gaza, but immediately trade rockets and air strikes.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28782224

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Israel – Creators of buildings-into-rubble extraordinaire
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  117. The old twister is at it again. Listen carefully. Israel is as pure as the driven snow.

    ‘Peace man’ Peres: we gifted them Gaza to make Med paradise, now they terrorise us and use children as human shields
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28768257

    The lie about using Palestinian children as human shields is repeated. What evil.

  118. @Jemand:

    I cannot imagine that Westminster would make any statement indicating that it will or will not accomodate a currency union.

    The House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee has already done so.(Click here). “If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom there will not be a currency union (…) We believe no change to the stated policy of no currency union is possible, either in the run-up to the General Election of 2015 or beyond.

    So have all three major British political parties. (Click here, here and here.

  119. A country that issues its debts in its own currency can’t go bankrupt.

    Wrong.

    No bank would lend to any entity incapable of going bankrupt.

    Issuing currency itself (“paper”) is similar to taking out debt.

  120. deepgreenpuddock

    14 Aug, 2014 - 8:31 am

    Mick
    The corollary of recriminations and discontent by yes voters after a no vote, is the actions and and behaviour of no voters after a yes vote.
    I think it is highly unlikely that No campaigners would concede the result readily.
    A comparison of the two sets of circumstances suggests to me that No voters would be in a position to undermine or do damage to the nascent independent Scotland than Yes voters to a united G. Britain.
    The core issue is really democracy and governance.
    It seems to me that yes voters are mainly concerned with establishing better forms of democratic representation and political accountability in the context of the erosion of political accountability and quality of democracy.
    The main concerns of the No campaigners have been matters of convenience, exaggerated to suggest that a cataclysm after the Yes vote.They have ignored many issues that have dominated politics over the last decade. These are Iraq and Tony Blair’s Nulabour failures, the failures of Afghanistan and the descent of the UK towards plutocracy and away from social democracy, Brown’s ludicrous ‘world saving’ economic performance as Chancellor,where to all intents, he adopted Thatcherite policies and the use of housing bubbles and credit to generate an unsustainable financial capitalism which directly led to a scabrous Tory government that has enacted some of the most anti-democratic and repressive legislation possible.
    Essentially , I think a yes vote is yes vote for the breakdown of a corrupt(ed) mainstream political system in the UK. A separation will, I believe, lead to a greater degree of democratic accountability in the entire UK and a diminishing of the centrality of certain key institutions that are part and parcel of the unsatisfactory UK political process.
    Are you really happy with peerages for cash? FPTP ? A three party system that offers differently spun versions of the same policies and directions?

  121. MJ: Do you have the poll that Westminster paid over 50 thousands pounds for and then refused to release the information ? That would indeed be welcome.

  122. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    14 Aug, 2014 - 8:57 am

    O/T, and sincere apologies, but this one’s fun:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11029036/Britain-discussed-US-request-to-build-Guantanamo-style-prison-on-Diego-Garcia-after-September-11-attacks-officials-say.html

    Michael Blyth, the British head of security on Diego Garcia at the time of 9/11, told The Telegraph that he was asked in 2001 to investigate whether it was possible to house hundreds of prisoners from Afghanistan on the island.

    “There was a discussion of whether or not Diego Garcia would be good as a transitory point for up to 500 prisoners of war coming out of Afghanistan,” said Mr Blyth, a former Royal Marine now working in the risk consultancy industry in the US.

    The plan was “quickly nixed”, however, after Adam Peters, the senior British officer on the base, learned that proposals for a detention centre would need 300 guards, dogs and security cameras and were therefore impractical….

    …Separately, a security source with first-hand knowledge of US-UK intelligence relations in the period after 9/11 has also told The Telegraph that lawyers from the British and American governments did discuss the legality of using Diego Garcia in extraordinary rendition operations, but the British side again maintained that it was legally impossible.

    Legally impossible for us, but go ahead, do what you like on our territory.

  123. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    14 Aug, 2014 - 9:04 am

    There were renewed demands for clarity over Diego Garcia last month after a foreign office minister said in a statement that Diego Garcia flight logs from 2002 were incomplete “due to water damage”, feeding long-standing suspicions of a possible cover-up of UK involvement.

    The following week, however, the government back-tracked, saying the damaged records had since “dried out” and all were now fully available for scrutiny.

    It also emerged, after a Whitehall official was inadvertently photographed carrying sensitive documents, that the complete flight logs are now in the possession of Scotland Yard detectives investigating the UK involvement in the rendition of Mr Belhadj.

    The existence of the flight logs appeared to contradict UK government assurances given in 2008 that a “thorough review” had found no such information.

    It is unknown if a full cross-referencing of the contents against known CIA rendition aircraft has yielded new information, but pressure is now growing on ministers to release the files to avoid any further allegations of cover-up.

    (see link above)

    The BBC don’t seem to have broken this yet, so thanks to the Turkish Gazeteport
    for linking this more widely. And getting Blair into the headline:

    http://www.gazeteport.com.tr/haber/178300/blaire-yeni-guantanamo-kurma-talebi

    “Demand to Blair: new Guantanamo building”, (slightly less approximately than Google Translate)

  124. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    14 Aug, 2014 - 9:13 am

    That is dynamite Ba’al, that means only those ‘few pages’ got waterlogged anybody might have an interest in….. first there is waterboarding, followed by waterlogging….

  125. Mick

    “I haven’t witnessed any No Campaigners preparing their excuses in the event of losing the referendum”. Hubris is a wonderful thing.

  126. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    14 Aug, 2014 - 9:25 am

    Indeed, Nevermind. You’d think waterlogged paper would have the decency to stay waterlogged and flush itself down the toilet, wouldn’t you?

    Returning to the topic, *many a true word in jest* – zone:

    http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/world/9026-scotland-freedom-priceless.html

    That’s a pretty good line to take, IMO.

  127. I agree with Tony Opmoc at 10:59 re go for a new currency.

    If I were pro independence and running the campaign (I am undecided and not running any campaign) I would equate a no vote with coach potatoes, i.e. if you are too busy to make any effort stay in bed note no. If you have got some guts here is your chance vote yes.

    No one wants to bring up the old Brit Empire but if you do look at it you see an awful lot of Scots who got up and did things (not all good but they had some will power.

  128. Can’t help but feel that the emphasis on keeping the pound is because the yes campaign is worried that to discuss a new currency / plan B just invites an easy line of attack and endless questioning and prefer to try and keep chummy with those who want an easy life and a seamless transition. If there is a yes vote it won’t be easy, it won’t be seamless and the yes campaign might as well be upfront about it and encourage those who are up to it to say yes and those who are too passive to stay on the sofa and send in a postal vote no.

  129. The No campaigners have been trumpeting that Scotland has no plan B.
    Watch this (Scotland Votes What’s at Stake for the UK )
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYGUlg3WhX4
    rUK has NO plans at all.No flag.No Name !No idea what to do in the case that Scotland says YES. They have their heads up their ar**es or in the sand.

    Habba: When all you can do is insult then I guess I struck a nerve and won.
    It’s not what I think , but it certainly is odd that in a normal election 70 K of the votes would be postal and in the referendum it has mushroomed to 700 K & ~ 18% of the electorate.

    I know you have no dog , but any suggestions what rUK could be called after a Yes vote ?

  130. Craig,

    You need to consult a dictionary surrounding the definition of hubris. Then compare it with the definition of an observation. Once you have done both of those things you might be able to understand my comments.

  131. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    14 Aug, 2014 - 12:52 pm

    Habba,….I know you have no dog ….

    Ah, but he has.

  132. “rUK has NO plans at all.No flag.No Name !No idea what to do in the case that Scotland says YES. They have their heads up their ar**es or in the sand.”

    The UK has a name, they have a flag, they have armed services, they have a currency and a central bank, they have revenue, customs, immigration, postal and diplomatic services, they have a stock exchange and an oil burse.

    If Scotland votes for independence they will be voting to leave the British institutions, they will still remain without them.

  133. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    14 Aug, 2014 - 2:45 pm

    DoNNyDARKO

    “Habba: When all you can do is insult then I guess I struck a nerve and won.
    It’s not what I think , but it certainly is odd that in a normal election 70 K of the votes would be postal and in the referendum it has mushroomed to 700 K & ~ 18% of the electorate.”
    ___________________

    “Insult”?

    You might like to consider whether your original comment* was insulting to the majority of Scots who, according to all polls at present, intend to vote No.

    (* “Sounds like Westminster is preparing for a Karzai type ballot.”)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    When you’ve thought about that – and perhaps seen fit to offer an apology – think about this: I have no idea where your figures come from, but it might be that enough Scots unable to vote in person for one reason or another feel strongly enough about the issue to make sure that their voice is heard. Which they might not do in other elections.

    ******************

    Apologies for the above, which is probably displeasingly polite and reasonable for a commmenter of your type. :)

  134. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 2:54 pm

    Fred
    13 Aug, 2014 – 8:41 pm

    “I think currency is an important issue and those being asked to decide have a right to know.”

    ——————————————-

    Don’t the people of Scotland also have a right to know what the Conservative, LibDem and Labour party stance would be on the currency if Scotland voted for independence?

    Why is it only the SNP that have to answer the currency question?

    Do the Better Together parties not have a plan in case of a Yes vote?

  135. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 3:04 pm

    Großer witz
    13 Aug, 2014 – 9:23 pm

    “Na canny. Na canny see what’s wrong with yous Engerlesh bastard paedos…”

    ——————————

    Put a haggis in it Gobler.

  136. “Why is it only the SNP that have to answer the currency question?”

    Because it is the SNP who are in power in Scotland and it is they who will be doing the deciding.

  137. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 3:51 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    13 Aug, 2014 – 9:40 pm

    “If the polls which indicate that Yes voting intentions have declined to around 35% and the Noes are at over 60 % are anywhere near correct, I’m beginning to see what’s behind most of the outpourings on this and similar threads.”

    “The words “frustration” and “bad losers” come to mind.”

    ——————————————

    Habbabkuk if you use statistics please reference your source.

    9th May 2013:
    NO: 65%
    YES: 26%
    Don’tKnow: 17%

    7th August 2014:
    NO: 45%
    YES: 37%
    Don’tKnow: 13%

    http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-1#line

    I think it will be a close call Habbabkuk. So close that the major parties have resorted to all sorts of dirty tricks and negative propaganda because there is the possibility of a yes win.

    But if it’s a No result you can gloat all you like it won’t change the reality of the propaganda machine and how propaganda does work on many people.

  138. So many of the more shouty Yessers are headbangers without a clue how to win over moderates on the other side. They are far more vociferous than the Noers. Far more Yes signs have been stuck up in Scotland than No signs. Head…bang! Their arguments don’t stand up to rational challenge, and rather than admit this they get all nasty and give their xenophobia an airing when in difficulty.

    Quite a lot of Yessers are so intoxicated that they think the polls are all an English (“Westminster”) plot and that in fact Yes is ahead and pulling further ahead. They are a typical bunch of politicians, but a bunch many of whom have believed their own bullshit to the max, which is quite sad.

    There are going to be quite a lot of drunken Yessite tossers around when the results come in. English residents who are known to be No supporters should maybe stay inside. I hope no houses get burnt. (That fucking film Braveheart has a lot to answer for. The IRA probably loved it. But I digress.) Any English resident who experiences xenophobic abuse in the run-up to the vote should consider contacting the police.

    No will win. Personally I don’t want Yes supporters to grovel (really), but I do want them to accept the result gracefully, shut the fuck up about independence, and start to contribute alongside the majority to making Scotland a better place – which BTW isn’t reducible to devo max and more public money in the hands of the freemasonic crooks who run Scotland.

  139. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 4:31 pm

    Mick
    13 Aug, 2014 – 11:26 pm

    “The sooner this bloody referendum is over the better. Sad to see that some of those supporting the Yes Campaign are already lining up reasons as to why they failed…”

    I take it you’re a NO supporter Mick.

    But don’t you think that, in the event of a NO win, that the negative fear campaign by the Better Together team including the BBC and the other mainstream media would have played a part in the failure of the YES vote?

    Scare stories like the Scottish military would desert to England in the event of independence. (Daily Mail)

  140. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    14 Aug, 2014 - 4:40 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    Whatever!

    Vox populi, vox dei.

    I recommend you read and digest No’s comments at 16h00.

  141. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    14 Aug, 2014 - 4:44 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “But don’t you think that, in the event of a NO win, that the negative fear campaign by the Better Together team including the BBC and the other mainstream media would have played a part in the failure of the YES vote?”
    __________________

    As with several of the other Yessers on here, your comment is an indirect insult to the Scottish voters (whether intended or not)

  142. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    14 Aug, 2014 - 4:51 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “But if it’s a No result you can gloat all you like it won’t change the reality of the propaganda machine and how propaganda does work on many people.”
    __________________

    Actually, Doug, I shan’t be gloating.

    But I would suggest that, in the event of a No vote (especially if this is followed by further devolved powers for the Scottish Assembly), the opportunity is taken to solve, once and for all, the “West Lothian” question.

    I believe that MPs sitting for Scottish constituencies should not be able to vote on legislation affecting England and Wales in areas for which competence has been – or will be – devolved to Scotland. Education policy is but one example.

    What say you, Doug?

  143. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 4:56 pm

    Parky
    14 Aug, 2014 – 12:20 am

    “If there is a NO outcome, will the referendum become an annual or bi-annual event until the correct answer is found?”

    No Parky but it will if its a Yes outcome!

  144. A pretty ugly mixed-up post @4:00pm. That projection thing again. Even in the Borders where I’ve been visiting which was though to be a tough call, there are Yes signs in windows, Yes stickers on cars everywhere, elaborate large wooden Yes cutout signs brighten up the most unlikely places, from well-kept gardens in troubled housing schemes, to small neat villages, even larger properties you’d have thought were Tory territory have large Yes signs in their gardens, from Carter Bar all the way along the A68 and back roads in between, up the A7 all the way into Edinburgh, the Yes message is everywhere, people are daring to show their intentions, and delightedly finding unimagined high approval and support, it is very encouraging. The pubs including those with many patrons from over border are abuzz too with eager anticipation of a Yes referendum result. I’ve spoken to people locally from over the border, from as far afield as Middlesborough who’re thinking moving up here after independence, where their votes, for the first time in their lives might count for something, this is no protest vote against yet another deeply unpopular government in Westminster, this is a rejection of UK politics entirely. Naysayers, there seem more of them online trolling the usual tired predictable themes, than exist in the real world.

  145. Doug,
    Why does it matter if I am a No supporter?

    In my post I did not refer to the arguments or tactics used by either side but only that Yes Supporters are already starting to concoct excuses for why they might lose. On this blog there is a reference to rigging postal ballots. At the weekend I listened to a friend of mine who is normally fairly rational, and certainly not disposed to half-baked conspiracy theories, suggest that there is a warehouse full of pre-prepared fraudulent ballots which will be sent to the count centres in order to secure a vote for the status quo. What nonsense.

    As for your second point I could only accept it if I believed that the media have been grossly biased towards the Better Together Campaign over that of the Yes Campaign. I don’t believe that is true.
    We could go back and forth, probably at quite considerable length, over which campaign has fought the more considered and factually accurate campaign but I doubt we would agree. So I am not going to bother.

    As I said last night, regardless of who wins I want both sides of the debate to come together, either as citizens of the UK or of an independent Scotland. It will also be beyond joy to go to the pub or out for dinner without having to listen to the same tedious reasons as to why the future of civilisation depends on a Yes or No vote.

    Five more weeks and we will be free…;)

  146. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    14 Aug, 2014 - 5:03 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “Don’t the people of Scotland also have a right to know what the Conservative, LibDem and Labour party stance would be on the currency if Scotland voted for independence?

    Why is it only the SNP that have to answer the currency question?

    Do the Better Together parties not have a plan in case of a Yes vote?”
    ___________________

    Not for the first time, Doug, you’re missing the point.

    It is for those who seek to change the status quo to justify their position and the need for change. That includes stating what they will do if the rUK govt declines a currency union. It is, inter alia, a matter of respect for the Scottish electorate.

    The No campaign, on the other hand, does not need to prognosticate on what Westminster would do in the event of a Yes vote. It would only need to do so if the entire UK population was entitled to vote in this referendum, which is not the case.

  147. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    14 Aug, 2014 - 5:39 pm

    Ferguson, Missouri is now Baghdad.

    Coming to a village near you.

  148. This was a reasonably interesting documentary and more impartial than I thought, it’s there for a few more days….

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04dr69k/scotland-votes-whats-at-stake-for-the-uk

    @doug scorgie 14 Aug, 2014 – 4:56 pm

    I thought if it was a Yes then it’s a done deal and the changeover machinery whirls into motion. If a No then does Alex Salmond have another go in a few years when the time is right etc. This was as someone pointed out earlier the case for ROI and Denmark as I seem to remember who were dragged to the polls until they agreed. So much for Democracy but it is the EU afterall.

    Re the televised last week, Darling was keen to find out if there was a plan B in place in the event of no currency union and Salmond just as keen not to contemplate the very idea. I’m sure there is a plan B and C etc but we are then into the world of ‘hypertheticals’ and politicians don’t seem to like discussing them at all.

  149. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 6:03 pm

    Fred
    14 Aug, 2014 – 3:08 pm

    “Why is it only the SNP that have to answer the currency question?”
    —–
    “Because it is the SNP who are in power in Scotland and it is they who will be doing the deciding.”

    —————————————

    You still don’t get it Fred.

    If the Yes vote wins there will be a general election; people will be free to vote for any party.

    If the SNP don’t win that election it will be a Conservative, Labour or LibDem government that will decide; they should tell the Scots what their stance is.

  150. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 6:08 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    14 Aug, 2014 – 4:40 pm

    “Mr Scorgie”
    “Vox populi, vox dei.”

    Not if they vote for Hamas though.

  151. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 6:16 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    14 Aug, 2014 – 4:44 pm

    “As with several of the other Yessers on here, your comment is an indirect insult to the Scottish voters (whether intended or not)”

    ——————————————-

    The Scottish people are just as susceptible to propaganda as any other people. Also you forget, I’m Scottish myself.

  152. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 6:21 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    14 Aug, 2014 – 4:51 pm

    “…to solve, once and for all, the “West Lothian” question.”

    A Yes win would solve that for you Habbabkuk.

  153. doug scorgie

    14 Aug, 2014 - 7:02 pm

    “At the weekend I listened to a friend of mine who is normally fairly rational, and certainly not disposed to half-baked conspiracy theories, suggest that there is a warehouse full of pre-prepared fraudulent ballots which will be sent to the count centres in order to secure a vote for the status quo. What nonsense.”

    “Postal voting is open to fraud on an “industrial scale” and is “unviable” in its current form, a top judge has said.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26520836

    If anyone is capable of carrying out a large scale fraud it is the British state and given the virulent state opposition to Scottish independence, a postal vote fraud is not such a far-fetched idea.

    If the lies, scare stories and propaganda from the state don’t look like they are working…

  154. “You still don’t get it Fred.

    If the Yes vote wins there will be a general election; people will be free to vote for any party. ”

    Well yes, I do get it.

    The next general election in Scotland will be held on 5th May 2016 regardless of who votes what at the referendum.

    What made you think it wouldn’t?

  155. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    14 Aug, 2014 - 9:11 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !
    14 Aug, 2014 – 4:51 pm

    “…to solve, once and for all, the “West Lothian” question.”

    A Yes win would solve that for you Habbabkuk.”
    ___________________

    Yes I’m aware of that, Doug.

    Perhaps you didn’t read my comment carefully enough:

    “But I would suggest that, in the event of a No vote (especially if this is followed by further devolved powers for the Scottish Assembly), the opportunity is taken to solve, once and for all, the “West Lothian” question.”

  156. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    14 Aug, 2014 - 9:15 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “The Scottish people are just as susceptible to propaganda as any other people. Also you forget, I’m Scottish myself.”
    ___________________

    No doubt. But what is the relevance of your second sentence?

  157. “if Scotland goes independent and the Scottish Government fails to agree on a currency union with the independent country next door, how much will it cost to set up a Scottish financial services compensation scheme to protect people’s bank deposits at the level at which they will continue to be protected if Scotland stays in the UK (£85000)?

    Note that having such a level of protection (€100,000 or equivalent) is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one, for EU membership.

    Note further that independent countries cannot expect their citizens’ bank deposits to be guaranteed by foreign countries, even if the accounts are held in banks registered in those countries.”

    – I personally have no idea of the cost, there will be costs involved in setting up all kinds of civil service bodies etc in an iScotland but this will create jobs in Scotland and increase employment and therefore tax revenue etc. – in the longer term these initial set-up costs more than pay for themselves. Scotland presumably already pays into the current UK FSA insurance scheme, so you could also consider that these insurance premiums would simply be diverted to an iScottish scheme following independence. Savings made elsewhere (not paying for useless nukes, illegal invasions of other countries, the House of Lords etc etc) can also be used to cover start-up costs.
    – Your final point about an citizens of one country cannot expect a foreign country to guarantee their deposits even if held in a bank in that 2nd country – I cannot believe that is true at all. I currently have bank accounts in foreign countries and they are governed by the rules and regulations of that country, it makes no difference that I am not a citizen of that country. Even if your point were true however, this would be a larger problem for citizens of the rUK as I suspect many more of them hold deposits in banks registered in Scotland than do Scots in rUK banks (by dint of much greater population and the fact several major banks are Scottish) – so inevitably this is something both sides will have a common interest to reach agreement on in any independence negotiations.

    “Second,

    if an independent Scotland has its own currency, how much additional cost will the average Scottish family incur in changing currency, for example when buying rUK pounds when going south of the border to visit family, when buying goods from down south online, or when changing back unspent rUK pounds on coming home?

    – again impossible to answer.. what is an average Scottish family? and how often, if ever, do they travel to the rest of the UK etc? Many Scots travel frequently to and/or work/do business in other countries with different currencies and deal with the costs attached to this. Any future Scots currency would likely be initially pegged to Sterling anyway so there would be no such costs. And of course, the current proposal is to use sterling after independence, either with or without a formal currency union.

    And third,

    is it, er, sensible, for Alex Salmond to threaten to renege on Scotland’s share of UK debt if the independent country next door does not agree to his demand for a currency union? Has he taken advice on what the response may be from international banks and rating agencies, and if so what advice did he receive?

  158. Doh.. major formatting errors there and accidentally hit return before had finished.. apologies.. had not intended to bold my answers.. hopefully you can suss it out..

    in answer to the third point – the UK govt has admitted it has full liability for all current UK debt as the debt was taken out by the UK govt, as such Scotland does not have any debt from a purely legal basis. The SNP have proposed to pay a population based share of the UK debt however, as part of their proposal to divide assets and liabilites between an indy Scotland and the rUK. Alic Sammins position is fairly simple – if the rUK refuse a share of the assets (currency, reserves, BoE etc via a formal currency union) then they cannot reasonably expect Scotland to take a share of the liabilities. International ratings agencies are on the record as having suggested an iScotland would have the very strongest credit rating, not surprising given a net-export economy. What would rUK’s credit rating be without Scotland and it’s oil and gas revenue’s (esp considering it’s enormous sovereign debt and continuing deficit)?? there’s a much more interesting question…

  159. “International ratings agencies are on the record as having suggested an iScotland would have the very strongest credit rating, not surprising given a net-export economy.”

    That isn’t exactly true. One agency, Standard and Poor’s, have said Scotland could initially have an AAA rating but that would probably change. Other agencies, like Moody’s, are less optimistic.

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted by Expathos