Michael White Lies

by craig on September 4, 2014 3:28 pm in Uncategorized

The Guardian’s Michael White is a revolting liar. He writes today in The Guardian:

Why so few “no thanks” posters or union flags? “Because we don’t want our windows smashed or tyres slashed,” some no voters reply.

That is a plain lie, Michael White. No “No voters” said that to you. You made it up. Nor has there been a single instance reported of any No voter having their windows or car trashed.

White also retails a story that a woman allegedly told him on hearsay about somebody else who was “seized by the throat” on canvassing because of their English accent. Well I have lived more than eight years of my adult life in Scotland and never once had any adverse reaction of any kind to my very English accent, including while canvassing in some very deprived areas. This incident is also an invention.

White has always been revolting, his constant snide support for Tony Blair and his wars, covered by that horrible false bonhommie, is repulsive. But the move into straightforward lies disguised as reportage to please his New Labour masters (and their creature Rusbridger) cannot be allowed to pass. Michael White is a disgrace to the profession of journalism.

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134 Comments

  1. Absolutely right Craig. The only violence reported is against Yeseg Broken arm, pregnant woman kicked, Yes office firebombed, Yes canvasser beaten up outside Tynecastle
    I canvas regularly with English people – FOR YES!
    As you say Michael White is a slimy individual or sleekit as we say in Scots

  2. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:05 pm

    Well I have lived more than eight years of my adult life in Scotland and never once had any adverse reaction of any kind to my very English accent, including while canvassing in some very deprived areas

    Snap. But read “thirty” for “eight” years, with a gradually encroaching faint Scots accent which is probably only detectable by the English. I did, though, get the predictable reaction in a pub showing an England-Scotland rugby match on TV, and making pro-English noises…you can get the same effect in Norwich pubs by supporting a team which is playing the Canaries, I believe. Some things are sacred.

  3. pete fairhurst

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:09 pm

    “Michael White is a disgrace to the profession of journalism.”

    Agreed. But then so is The Grauniad itself.

  4. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:24 pm

    To be fair to the Grauniad, whether it deserves it or not, George Monbiot had a 100% positive piece supporting independence in it yesterday:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland

    White’s miserable contribution doesn’t go far to dismiss Monbiot’s thesis.

  5. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:26 pm

    (the link’s CiF, but it was in the print edition)

  6. UK MUPPET STREAM MEDIA LIES – SHOCK HORROR !

    CASABLANCA

    ‘I’m shocked, shocked to find gambling going on! – Casablanca –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTsg9i6lvqU#t=02m45s

    And in other unlikely news …

    UK OR FRANCE – “The US’s most docile poodle in Europe” HA! ; )

    The UK’s MSM’s lies are no surprise to those who (correctly) recognise the UK as the catamite of the fascist US Empire – a fascist US Empire that uses the methods of the Nazis – it helps to choose your sources of information very carefully. Which is why if you rely on the US or UK Muppet Stream Media you’ll never hear the following.

    THE SAKER

    “It appears that Francois Holland, aka “soft testicle” (nickname given to him by Martine Aubry, First Secretary of the Socialist Party of France), has outdone even Tony Blair as the US’s most docile poodle in Europe.

    – “Pauvre, pauvre France!” 3rd September, 2014 – The Saker –

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ie/2014/09/pauvre-pauvre-france.html

    M K BHADRAKUMAR

    “The summit of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO] in Wales, Britain, on Thursday promises to be an exciting event for the alliance. A tortuous journey that began over 23 years ago is about to end. It was on February 25, 1991 that the foreign and defence ministers of the erstwhile Warsaw Pact met in Hungary and declared that the military alliance was disbanded. Ever since then, NATO has been a tormented soul. That existential angst over its identity in a brave new world without an adversary is getting over.”

    “Nato dressing up, raring to go” by MK Bhadrakumar, former ambassador of India – 2nd September, 2014 – MK Bhadrakumar blog –

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2014/09/02/nato-dressing-up-raring-to-go/

    UP THE USUK NEO-CON NAZI EMPIRE !

    Just say “Up yours” to USUK Empire Neo-Con Nazi mass psychosis! –

    USUK Empire Neo-Con Nazism made mainstream by ‘Biggus Dickus,’ (of Wome on the Potomac) — Big Oil tool and US Torture promoter – brought to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Aden, Syria, Egypt, Uzbekistan, Poland, Lithuania and many, many more —

    – “You lucky bastard” – Monty Python – Life of Brian –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EI7p2p1QJI#t=00m34s

    Contd.

  7. UK MUPPET STREAM MEDIA LIES – SHOCK HORROR ! – 2

    GAWD BLESS YOU MR. PUTIN

    – OBAMA AND PUTIN –

    ONE IS A MURDEROUS PSYCHOPATH

    THE OTHER IS THE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA

    Previously –

    Russia’s Economic Options –

    “The world is dividing into blocks, with barriers between them. The question is will Russia be on the periphery of someone else’s block, or form its own.”

    “Who is Mr. Putin, (MUST SEE)” by Mikhail Khazin, 9th August 2014 – The Saker –

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ie/2014/08/who-is-mr-putin-by-mikhail-khazin-must.html

    ANTI-U.S. FASCIST EMPIRE REASONS TO BE CHEERFUL ; )

    “The Kremlin has released the official text of President Vladimir Putin’s remarks on the Syrian crisis. What is striking is that Putin spoke far more extensively than what the media reports suggested, and, second, he spoke on virtually every aspect of the explosive situation.”

    Certainly, Putin towers head and shoulders above other world statesmen today in taking a highly principled stance, given Russia’s involvement in Syria, knowledge of Syria and the Middle East and the big role it has been playing to cobble together Geneva 2 despite all odds.

    “Putin’s bid to launch peace doves over Syria,” by MK Bhadrakumar, ex-Ambassador of India, September 1st, 2013 – MK Bhadrakumar blog –

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2013/09/01/putins-bid-to-launch-peace-doves-over-syria/

    Kremlin official text – “Answers to Journalist’s Questions,” August 31st, 2013 – Vladivostok – President of Russia –

    http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/5912

    UP THE USUK NEO-CON NAZI EMPIRE !

    Just say “Up yours” to USUK Empire Neo-Con Nazi mass psychosis! –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jYoeqUs2KI#t=00m52s

    EIN VOLK, EIN REICH, EIN CHENEY

    USUK Empire Neo-Con Nazism made mainstream by ‘Biggus Dickus,’ (of Wome on the Potomac) — Big Oil tool and US Torture promoter – brought to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Aden, Syria, Egypt, Uzbekistan, Poland, Lithuania and many, many more —

    – “You lucky bastard” – Monty Python – Life of Brian –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EI7p2p1QJI#t=00m34s

    More – “Gawd Bless You Mr. Putin” – ICH –

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36210.htm#IDComment718911798

  8. Grovel above your weight

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:49 pm

    Right. If White is determined to be a whining City weasel he ought to do it Colin Kidd’s way, as a question:

    “Why is the unionist majority of the opinion polls not reflected in the number of ‘No’ posters seen in windows, which is pitiful? Does it indicate lack of support or a fear of broken glass?”

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/lrb-scotland/reflections-on-the-independence-referendum
    (a nice cross-section of opinions there, some surprisingly coherent)

    These two sum up the British character perfectly. Complain about contention, mumble your convictions, and make your moral cowardice into an indictment of the forthright faction. That is how Britain has managed to become the USA’s bumboys. The British ruling class are hopeless pussies. Let us hope that the English, Welsh, and Manx can get shot of them too.

  9. “Nor has there been a single instance reported of any No voter having their windows or car trashed.”

    That is completely wrong.

    A Google search will show that vandalism is occurring on both sides but don’t lie and say that there have been no reported instances of vandalism against No supporters. There was one case, widely reported on twitter with an accompanying image (@BarnesForKelvin) showing a car in Glasgow that had Yes scored on the passenger door and another instance a few months ago where a Labour councillor’s car had Yes inked on the bonnet.

  10. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:57 pm

    Absolutely right Craig. The only violence reported is against Yeseg Broken arm, pregnant woman kicked, Yes office firebombed, Yes canvasser beaten up outside Tynecastle
    I canvas regularly with English people – FOR YES!
    As you say Michael White is a slimy individual or sleekit as we say in Scots
    —————-
    Not Forgetting Alex, threats posted through a yes office in Fife warning Jim Sillar’s not come to Fife if he valued his health,the note also said I’m glad big mouth Margo is dead.

    http://www.scotsman.com/scottish-independence/police-probe-threats-sent-to-jim-sillars/

  11. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:02 pm

    No campaigner kicks woman in the stomach then shouts out she’s junkie scum because she’s a yes voter.
    ———-

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/02/scottish-independence-attacked_n_5750732.html

  12. Cringe above your weight

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:03 pm

    Poor Mick gets his news from twitter. And what news, look at them, just look at them, pussies crying about their precious cars. They’d never make it in America. In US elections they down your plane and it’s all water under the bridge.

    Why do we let Britain retain its P5 status? They’re sissies.

  13. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:07 pm

  14. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:10 pm

    Yes campaigners kicked and punched by angry mob in Newcastle.
    ————–
    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/yes-campaigners-attacked-by-mob-outside-tynecastle-1-3527125

  15. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:11 pm

    Oops! last post I mean’t Tynecastle, silly me.

  16. David Kennedy

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:13 pm

    I have been a Guardian reader for more than 50 years and I am currently a subscriber. I valued the range of views printed, but I have become more and more disillusioned by its (extremely) biased editorials and its failure to provide balanced accounts on major issues. In particular, I dislike the dominance of the Atlanticist viewpoint and almost slavish acceptance of the US government view of the world. As an Englishman living in Scotland for the past 42 years, I have never encountered any strong prejudice against the English. Quite the contrary. We even put up with the poll tax without resorting to violence. It was the English that did that (thankfully). Needless to say I shall be voting YES, canvass for this, and hope to see an independent Scotland in the near future.

  17. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:25 pm

    Way off topic but interesting, the largest dinosaur ever found.

    http://www.cnet.com/news/supermassive-dinosaur-found-in-argentina-meet-dreadnoughtus/

  18. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:28 pm

    500 protesters gather outside the NATO summit in Wales.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=14f_1409847301

  19. Suck above your weight

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:28 pm

    Poor milliner gets his news from twitter. Poor sad rube never heard of a ratfuck. Say, al, did you do you part on #toplessforjlaw ? Because everything on twitter is facts!

  20. Cringe,

    We are told by many on this blog not to trust the MSM, please tell me what is an appropriate outlet for news and current events?

    Also in what US election did ‘they’ down a plane?

  21. Al Milliner

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:39 pm

    “We are told by many on this blog not to trust the MSM, please tell me what is an appropriate outlet for news and current events?”

    Global Research
    Aangrifan
    Media Lens message board

  22. Cringe above your weight

    4 Sep, 2014 - 5:42 pm

    Wellstone, nyeeaow, ka-FOOM
    Mark Connell, nyeeaow, ka-FOOM
    etc. etc.
    but that’s only if unsanctioned candidates can’t be destroyed with deft twitter ratfucks. These Brit pedo toffs better start thinking about downing some planes too, they need a plan B because people really hate their useless crooked union.

    As for media, the trick is to stop searching for appropriate outlets and start using critical reasoning.

  23. “MON DIEU!”

    – THE UK MUPPET STREAM MEDIA LIES !

    What if the USUK Muppet Stream Media’s demonisation of Russian President Vladimir Putin was a pack of lies and he was actually an incorruptible patriotic Russian? No change there, then! ; )

    The Fascist US Empire’s nightmare – can’t bribe him, can’t get him to sell out his own people, can’t intimidate him.

    Unlike those gutless, spineless European puppets of the US Empire – Sarkozzi, Berlusconi, Merkel, Bildt, Hollande, Tony Bliar, Cameron and Clegg.

    GAWD BLESS YOU MR. PUTIN

    – “Putting in a good word for Putin” – 18th August 2014 – Media Lens

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1408363128.html

    – “Mon Dieu!” – The Toy Patient –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0KZa9ER9Bg#t=03m16s

    More – including “What’s our Imperial oil doing under their desert sands?” – Our brave US Empire boys delivering aid to Syria. ; ) – ICH –

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36210.htm#IDComment718911798

  24. Hmm – to be fair, I believe White could be reporting what voters actually have said to him.

    I canvass for Yes almost daily now and any voters showing enthusiasm rather than mere agreement are offered window posters, car stickers and the like. Many decline quoting fears such as White reports. “Not wise in this street” is a common response. I can’t breach confidentiality by telling them that most of their neighbours are voting Yes, so I just hand over a poster and suggest they put it up once they see others.

    Still, there are an awful lot more Yes windows than No windows – maybe because there are an awful lot more Yes canvassers? The Unionists are having to bus in kids from England on £25 a day + expenses.

  25. So Vronsky, what is your prediction for the final count ratio of ‘yes’ to ‘no’?

  26. Call me NED

    4 Sep, 2014 - 6:42 pm

    milliner, you seem like a well-meaning fellow, if no Einstein, so I’ll explain the world to you. You Brits are always going to be the USA’s bitch. Trident doesn’t buy you any respect – the USG spent the last ten years giving nukes to every wog in sight. The US doesn’t care if you can fight or not. Your usefulness rests on two of your national characteristics: money-laundering and pedophilia. Especially pedophilia. When you blackmail a chomo, he stays blackmailed. So keep that up and you can stay in the UNSC. As long as you do what you’re told.

    The reason why you’ve got to hang onto Scotland is not for a strong union. We like you weak. The more pathetic, the better. But we don’t want the Small Five to become the Small Six. It’s bad enough as it is. Principle, rule of law, diplomacy, peace, it’s your job to keep that shit under control, and your North is a hotbed. You Brits are to squelch any comments from the peanut gallery regarding torture, aggression, proliferation, and internationally wrongful acts. Oh, and Lockerbie.

    Is that clear?

  27. There was someone grabbed by the throat, though.
    A poster on Wings by the name of Wee Johnny, is a window cleaner in Dundee. He posted a couple of days ago about being throttled by a shop owner in Broughty Ferry, for daring to say he was a Yes voter whilst cleaning his windows. He was wondering if he should have reported it it to the police.

  28. pete fairhurst

    4 Sep, 2014 - 7:27 pm

    Call Me NED 6.42

    There is a lot in what you say. Your points about Trident, money-laundering, paedophilia and weakness all have some merit.

    But your “USA’s bitch” point is much more difficult. Are you not aware of the history of central banking in the whole time since USA became “independent” of the mother empire? And particularly the Federal Reserve which was founded in 1913 and is privately owned by European money powers largely based in London and their agents in the US.

    The USA was a creditor nation in 1913. It is now the biggest debtor nation that the world has ever known. Its been chewed up and spat out by the European money power. Whos the bitch?

  29. It’s projection against, the vandalism is no doubt mostly in the other direction.

    http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/news/local-headlines/police-investigating-yes-sign-attacks-in-scottish-borders-1-3506553

  30. Mike

    I tried googling and could find nothing on the incidents you claim – only the usual complaints about damage of banners in fields (happens every election) and graffiti.

  31. Went clear over your head, didn’t it? I was wrong, it’s not stupidity, it’s brainwashing, pure INGSOC, and when someone pricks it, all you can do is thrash around with a bit of scattershot classism and your thoroughly-instilled “Conspiracy Theory!” reflex.

    You poor sod. Can’t accept that a foreign oligarchy owns your soft pasty British ass. (Even worse, when it’s the likes of me!) There’s no shame in your lumpenprole false consciousness. Usually it takes access to classified and then some time and effort to digest it with the blinkers off. Clearly you’ve had neither, not of any consequence.

  32. I think people do feel intimidated and it’s hardly surprising when there are blogs such as this one preaching hatred. To disagree with someone is one thing but resorting to name calling is another. But then much of this blog seems to consist of name calling.

    Vandalism does happen, I’ve seen it, not only campaign material defaced but public property with campaign slogans spray painted on them. If this is happening in my quiet neck of the woods no doubt it is happening everywhere and it is intimidating.

    Windows do get broken and tyres do get slashed. If there was no evidence the reason was a campaign sticker and most of the time there can’t be then it isn’t going to be reported as such but it does happen and considering the level of fanaticism in this campaign it’s hardly surprising.

    What is ridiculous is pretending the campaign is all sweetness and light while calling someone a “revolting liar”.

  33. Fred’s whinge is classically British. When the British pedo toffs lost their American colony, they got their panties in a bunch about the teddibly teddibly horrifying brutality of the emerging nation’s freedom fighters. And now they’ve degenerated so far that they can’t even take ridicule and pointed vituperation from fed-up Scots.

  34. Craig,

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/abuse-for-pro-union-councillor-168268n.24547550 came up straight away for me. Also see the twitter handle I gave for the chap who had his car damaged two nights ago, two examples which came up very quickly.

    As I said in my original post, there has been plenty of vandalism on both sides. Brings me back to a comment I made to you a few weeks about how I can’t wait for the whole thing to be over.

  35. Resident Dissident

    4 Sep, 2014 - 8:16 pm

    Saying that people who oppose your views are not decent is hardly likely to be an encouragement to good behaviour.

  36. I feel sorry for you Fred. You’re way up there in the North waiting for legions of Nazi’s goose stepping their way to your door to make your life more miserable than it already is.
    It won’t happen.There are no Nazi’s,no bogeymen.Your sheep are safe.
    If they report eggs being thrown,they’ll report tyres and windows being smashed and slashed.That’s major crime in Scotland.It would be reported Fred.You just live off the beaten track.
    The part of Fife that I grew up in. all the things you’ve mentioned happened on a weekly basis.They were young juvenile delinquents (usually known) with nowhere to go and nothing to do in the evenings.These young people are getting the vote and if they cut their democratic teeth on defacing opposition posters,thats the way it goes,for both sides.The paint will wash off and the posters will disappear after the 18th and you and your sheep will find only the weather intimidating.

  37. Call me Cringe

    4 Sep, 2014 - 8:19 pm

    Chap who had his car damaged? Pffffff.

    You want to see the automatic weaponry they have in the US! Peanuts!

  38. Mick

    Not convinced by that. “He feared damage had been scratched into the bodywork”. That’s rather strange. The car was keyed or it wasn’t. Photo? Evidence the Labour councillor didn’t do it himself?

  39. “I feel sorry for you Fred. You’re way up there in the North waiting for legions of Nazi’s goose stepping their way to your door to make your life more miserable than it already is.”

    This is precisely what I was saying. Your repeated personal remarks about me are intimidating. Online bullying. If anyone puts any point of view but yours you subject them to personal abusive comments.

    Is it any wonder people are afraid to put up campaign stickers on their property? Is it any wonder people feel intimidated?

  40. I think you have bigger issues than the referendum Fred.

  41. “Not convinced by that. “He feared damage had been scratched into the bodywork”. That’s rather strange. The car was keyed or it wasn’t. Photo? ”

    http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/call-to-end-abuse-after-car-targeted-167547n.24490072

  42. I hadn’t heard of the expression ‘yobs’ before this. I knew I could learn something here. :)

  43. There have been several reports of vandalism by both sides, it would incredible if there were not despite the personal experience of certain people.

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/north-east/308475/strichen-farmers-better-together-billboards-vandalised/

    All pretty low-level stuff you might argue but those on the receiving end may well feel threatened and intimidated.

    “Evidence the Labour councillor didn’t do it himself?”

    More to the point Craig any evidence that he did?

  44. @jimmyGiro

    “prediction for final count”

    Don’t know. I am canvassing in a predominantly working class, Labour loyal, west central belt town and seeing Yes taking 50-70% of the return, more in some hot-spots. It’s a fair bet that the douce Tory suburbs are giving a different result and I have no means of weighting for that, or other factors. Important to note, though, that neither has anyone else. The professional pollsters have no previous independence campaign results to use as baselines for weighting so they’ve all chosen different approaches.

    That said, I wish I could believe the pollsters. If it’s true that it’s neck and neck (within the margin of error) then Yes will win assuming that Yes voters, like SNP voters, are more motivated to get off their arses and go down to the polling station – but we can’t be sure of that.

    Sorry if this isn’t very helpful, but I’ve always felt that most people wouldn’t really engage with the question until about now and I think I was right. I’m seeing undecideds going to Yes quite rapidly now, or responding to the mildest of pushes. If the trend continues into next week then I think the most I could say is that we’ll have moved into an area where a No vote is unlikely.

  45. Is there extra money for a re-count? If it’s very close, it will be cheaper than containing public unrest.

  46. “I hadn’t heard of the expression ‘yobs’ before this. I knew I could learn something here. ”

    Look up the words “rabble-rouser” and “demagogue” and learn some more.

  47. “Look up the words “rabble-rouser” and “demagogue” and learn some more.”

    Sorry. I’m not a multi-tasker. :)

  48. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:12 pm

    All pretty low-level stuff you might argue but those on the receiving end may well feel threatened and intimidated.

    Some probably do. Which might deter them from making public political statements next time, but rarely seems to. Others wait till after dark or get up very early in the morning and reciprocate the favour. The battle of the posters can get a bit wild in a keenly contested Scottish constituency, as I remember.

  49. Listen to Fred, Whah Baby, Whah! Whah! I can imagine how intimidated and afraid you must be of your British anti-terror goons – they can lock you up forever and put you away for not blabbing everything they want to know right off.

    Oh, right, I forgot. You just submit and crawl and do whatever they say to be safe. This is Britain.

  50. The late surge in the Yes vote is having a ripple effect in rUK, with the Tories plotting to oust David Cameron if Scotland regains independence:

    ““The move will take place immediately,” said one senior Tory MP. “David Cameron will be unable to contain the anger at the humiliation. His position will be terminal.”

    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/832232/diff/0/1

  51. Al Milliner is running the Scottish Observatory, not from a flat in Coventry, but from Disgusted Tunbridge Wells. This spam bot will be with us for 9 months, the hatching period for the Tory Bot fly larva, i.e.till the next election.

    The first mission for our new troll is to cast doubt on the charge of War Criminal that hangs over David Cameron for his bombing of Sirte, where the inhabitants had come to an uncomfortable symbiosis with Col Gaddafi.

    My low internet signal from my mobile is not up to the task of disproving his counter-claim to the 15,000 murdered by Cameron. I remember the number as half a million, but Google is regularly cleaned of inconvenient evidence about UK war crimes.

    Anyway even if the larva lives long enough to hatch, the next UK government will be run by Wallace of Grommit fame. Every UK prime minister has to have a Scottish name.

    As to Scottish Independence, Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells has boxes and boxes in storage of ‘No’ votes of non-existant voters with which to flood out the latest political uprising of those ungrateful Pict-blue clans.

  52. “Listen to Fred, Whah Baby, Whah! Whah! I can imagine how intimidated and afraid you must be of your British anti-terror goons – they can lock you up forever and put you away for not blabbing everything they want to know right off.

    Oh, right, I forgot. You just submit and crawl and do whatever they say to be safe. This is Britain.”

    Once again you provide evidence to support my argument.

    Can there be any wonder why people feel intimidated when campaigners resort to personal attacks such as this.

  53. “”““The move will take place immediately,” said one senior Tory MP. “David Cameron will be unable to contain the anger at the humiliation. His position will be terminal.”””

    Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells says he would be welcome to come and be the new terminal at Gatwick, any time.

  54. Cringe-a-rama

    4 Sep, 2014 - 10:32 pm

    Here’s Habbakuk’s trick, bleeding over to so-called fred, who’s now also taken to chewing the scenery in pop-eyed histrionic fear, shaking like a leaf. One would think that for a genuine proud Scot it would be somewhat demeaning to act such a sniveling pussy. I know frail elderly ladies with more evident balls.

    For pity’s sake, man, keep your personas straight.

  55. “Here’s Habbakuk’s trick, bleeding over to so-called fred, who’s now also taken to chewing the scenery in pop-eyed histrionic fear, shaking like a leaf. One would think that for a genuine proud Scot it would be somewhat demeaning to act such a sniveling pussy. I know frail elderly ladies with more evident balls.”

    Proof, if proof were needed that it isn’t possible to make a rational argument without being subjected to personal abuse and bullying.

  56. I can remember the Devolution vote and at the time was convinced there would be a swamping yes for that. That was because the yes side (round me anyway) were making more noise. Those against appeared to say a lot less then quietly voted against it. I’m not in Scotland now so no idea what its like for this one. But posters up etc aren’t necessarily much of a guide.

    If fewer “No” ones then why that would be is an interesting question. Social pressure, real or percieved, certainly might be a reason. People don’t even tell their spouses about how they vote – or lie to them about it.

  57. People don’t even tell their spouses about how they vote in general elections I meant to say.

  58. Quote “Why so few “no thanks” posters or union flags? “Because we don’t want our windows smashed or tyres slashed,” some no voters reply.”

    I’ve heard Unionist politicians saying the above during interview, No voters are repeating this on calls in.

    It’s a lie, one of many circulating. All coming from the one side. Well what should we expect the poor sods have had to keep up their campaign of lies fearmongering negativity, for an awful long time now. It’s not working any more.

  59. Kempe

    I regard attacking billboards – ones not on residential property – as a perfectly acceptable manifestation of political exuberance. Always been done, always will be, by all sides.

    Defacing cars is another thing entirely. But the Labour councillor’s car photo is something of a mystery. Someone has written a neat Yes on it in a rounded hand with what looks like a felt tip pen or white board marker. I strongly suspect it would wash away quite simply with no damage. Bit of a wanker to call the police about that.

    That he or someone linked to him did it himself to implicate the Yes campaign seems at least as plausible as any other explanation, given the apparent lack of harm to his car.

  60. @Clydebuilt

    But I’m saying it.

    I’m a voter. The online equivalent of windows smashed and tyres slashed is personal abuse and bullying.

    I have to assume that the intimidation I see in cyberspace would be repeated in meatspace. The people who do the one are the sort of people who would do the other.

  61. BrianFujisanWabi-sabi

    4 Sep, 2014 - 11:16 pm

    Wee hero Sorts out Vile Andrew Niel –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23m6CukRUGM

    Mods Re Fedup’s request.. Please Do.

  62. Snool Brittania

    4 Sep, 2014 - 11:39 pm

    Will somebody give Braveheart a couple of Xanax?

  63. “Will somebody give Braveheart a couple of Xanax?”

    Craig?

  64. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    4 Sep, 2014 - 11:52 pm

    fred 4 Sep, 2014 – 8:29 pm

    “This is precisely what I was saying. Your repeated personal remarks about me are intimidating. Online bullying. If anyone puts any point of view but yours you subject them to personal abusive comments.”

    Fred 10 Oct, 2013 – 8:53 pm

    “Why don’t you just accept that you are a shit for brained moron who hasn’t got a clue.”

    fred 11 Feb, 2014 – 7:26 pm

    “Yes shit for brained little twat I popped up to point out that you are talking out of your arse as usual.”

    Fred 22 Feb, 2013 – 8:32 am

    “you are nothing special, you are just a deluded little shit.”

    fred 13 Apr, 2014 – 6:46 pm

    “For fucks sake grow up shit head.”

    fred 25 Jul, 2014 – 8:45 pm

    “Fuck of shit for brains waste of space retard.”

  65. BrianFujisanWabi-sabi

    5 Sep, 2014 - 12:20 am

  66. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    5 Sep, 2014 - 12:30 am

    Brian at 11.16
    Thanks, that was a pleasure to watch. The oily Neil knew he was taking a hammering and ran for the hills.
    One unexpected (by me) bonus of the independence debate is the platform it has provided for so many Scots to demonstrate their intelligence and knowledge. There is no shortage of political talent in Scotland.

  67. “He feared damage had been scratched into the bodywork”

    The wording implies that there was no such damage. I’d guess Craig is right and it appeared to be scratched but was simply scribbled on – not even magic marker, more like a wet finger. I once gave a work colleague a very bad fright by sticking a damp strip of toilet paper along the side of his brand new car – the impression of serious damage was very convincing. So far so trivial, but interesting is the faux-outraged response, uncritically reported by the media. The Scottish Police have already complained to the No campaign that this sort of hyperbole can become self-fulfilling.

  68. Oh Fred,Fred,Fred…

    You’re such a pathetichally thick pant-pissing troll bitch it’s hilarious.

    You really are as stupid as stupid gets.

    Michael White??

    Is anyone really surprised by these gofers anymore?

    Yet another spook bitch so far up Blair’s arse-as long as his brown envelopes full of ca$h keeping pooping out.

  69. Thanks Brian for that link. What a woman. She knocked the slimy stooge into a cocked hat. Articulate, clear minded, well informed and on the side of justice for the people. That’s Jeane Freeman of course and not Neil!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeane_Freeman

    Wish we could have her on with the equally slimy Michael White. She could soon dispose of his lightweight flippancies. I saw him reviewing the papers on Sky News a little while back. You should have heard him. The people on Medialens have no time for him.

    eg Outrageous comment from Guardian’s Michael White

    Posted by The Editors on August 30, 2014, 11:11 am, in reply to “George Galloway taken to hospital after street attack”

    Speedy recovery George Galloway bit.ly/1B3z97G His genius for annoying people offers huge range of motive for attack (It was Israel)’

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MichaelWhite/status/505630994456932352

    Our response: Outrageous comment. Hard to imagine you writing that of any other MP subjected to a serious physical assault.’

    and following
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1409352303.html

  70. Call me Cringe

    5 Sep, 2014 - 7:45 am

    So according to Brian, Mary and Node, Andrew Neil is a vile, oily, slimy stooge. All for doing his job of asking awkward questions. Obviously they would rather he just sat there nodding his head.

  71. Call me Cringe

    5 Sep, 2014 - 7:55 am

    Node

    The point about Fred is he resorts to abuse only when he is on the receiving end of it. Whether you agree with him or not, Fred gives rational arguments that inevitably attract abuse from the Yes side when they find it hard to argue with them. See Jives above.

  72. With all this hypocritical talk of Britons going abroad to become killers/terrorists and with tens of hundreds of men, women and children who were killed by the IDF, now lying in graves in the sandy soil of Gaza, PLEASE sign.

    STOP BRITISH CITIZENS JOINING ISRAELI MILITARY

    With a UN appointed international commission of inquiry examining possible human rights violations and war crimes committed by Israel in the Gaza Strip, during Operation Protective Shield, we call upon the British government to hold to account all British citizens who have served in the Israeli military during this operation

    It is hypocritical and likely to be detrimental to community relations in the UK for the British government to be taking action against British Muslims who are fighting abroad while tolerating British Zionists participating in a military action that is being investigated for war crimes.

    Dear Friends,

    I just created the petition “Stop British citizens joining Israeli military” and wanted to ask if you could add your name too.

    This campaign means a lot to me and the more support we can get behind it, the better chance we have of succeeding. You can read more and sign the petition here:

    https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-british-citizens-joining-israeli-military

    Thank you! Paul Kelemen Sheffield PSC

    ~~~

  73. Call Me Cringe

    If the slimy stooge had a neck, of which I can see no sign, he could nod his head. He only has a brass neck so cannot.

  74. Call Me Cringe. This is what matters to ALL of us. The survival of the NHS. Not what we think of some stenographer/mouthpiece to power.

    TTIP and the Scottish NHS http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1409844300.htm

    Please consider this 38 Degrees request.

    ‘It’s working. In response to Saturday’s day of action on TTIP, the government’s Trade Minister Lord Livingstone has gone on the defensive about the sinister deal. Yesterday, he released a statement saying we’re wrong to be concerned about the deal and that it’ll be good for the UK. [1] But experts say his claims don’t stack up. [2]

    In his statement, Lord Livingstone refused to remove the NHS from the deal, which is the only way of ensuring it’s protected. And he didn’t even bother to try and justify the part that would give big businesses extra powers to sue the government for billions of pounds. [3]

    It’s clear the government’s on the back foot, and they’re watching what we do. We need a great plan – and the best ones come when we decide what to do together.

    Can you click here to take a quick poll so we can decide the next steps of our campaign together?

    TAKE THE NEXT STEPS POLL

    Last week thousands of us hit the streets to raise awareness of the dangerous deal.[3] That was the first stage of our campaign to ensure that the voices of ordinary people are heard over those of big business in the deal’s negotiations. Did we do enough? We could have more days of action, or fund more people-powered ad campaigns.

    There are so many other things we can do to scupper the government’s plans on TTIP. We’ve already got a massive petition to Vince Cable, the Minister in charge. Should we work together to make this the biggest petition he’s ever received?

    Or should we target our MPs next? If they start hearing about TTIP, it’s bound to heap the pressure on the government.

    Maybe we should turn our attention on Europe where the deal is being negotiated in secret? Our MEPs haven’t heard much about TTIP so far, even though they’re the ones who’ll be voting it through.

    There are lots of options to choose from. When you click the link to fill out the poll, you’ll find a short explanation of why each of the suggestions would work. Maybe you’ve got a suggestion that’s not on the list? Please click the link to help decide how we campaign against TTIP now:
    https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/TTIP-next-steps

    38 Degrees members have got form when it comes to winning strategies. Earlier in this campaign, 38 Degrees members voted to prioritise campaigning for the NHS to be removed from the deal, and to stop big businesses being given extra powers to sue our government. [4]

    And now we can see this strategy is working – it’s rattling the government. Let’s do it again. Please take two minutes to fill in this poll on our next steps together:
    https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/TTIP-next-steps

    NOTES:
    [1] CityAM: NHS could still be opened to American corporations under TTIP:
    http://www.cityam.com/1409607311/nhs-could-still-be-opened-american-corporations
    [2] There have been a couple of articles about why the NHS will be in danger from TTIP. This article from Open Democracy is the clearest:
    Open Democracy: On TTIP and the NHS they are trying to bamboozle us:
    https://opendemocracy.net/ournhs/john-hilary/on-ttip-and-nhs-they-are-trying-to-bamboozle-us

    In the article John Hilary from War on Want references a leaked EU document that shows health services are included in the deal. Here’s a link to that leaked document:
    Associated Whistleblowing Press: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) negotiations: Draft of European Union’s service and investment offer:
    https://data.awp.is/filtrala/2014/06/13/4.html

    And lastly there have already been several articles published since the government’ statement that confirmed the NHS could still be opened up to American Corporations:

    Guardian: Bring on the defeat of the EU-US free trade deal
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/eu-us-free-trade-deal-ttip-transatlantic-trade-investment-partnership
    Huffington Post: NHS Not Safe From Private Firms In Controversial TTIP Deal, UK Admits:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/01/ttip-eu-us-trade-deal_n_5747088.html
    [3] TTIP: Government Will Not Exclude NHS From Free Trade Agreement:
    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ttip-government-will-not-exclude-nhs-free-trade-agreement-1463454
    [4] 38 Degrees: TTIP day of action:
    http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2014/09/02/ttip-day-of-action-2/
    [5] 38 Degrees: TTIP – poll results:
    http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2014/05/22/ttip-poll-results/

  75. Call me Cringe

    5 Sep, 2014 - 8:18 am

    “This is what matters to ALL of us. The survival of the NHS.”

    Mary, you may think that but to most people it’s (at best), just a very average health service.

  76. Call me Cringe

    5 Sep, 2014 - 8:28 am

    Mary

    “STOP BRITISH CITIZENS JOINING ISRAELI MILITARY”

    I think most people are more concerned about British Muslims rampaging across Syria and Iraq beheading journalists and what these people may do once they are inevitably allowed to return here.

    Also, you can’t stop British citizens joining the Israeli military because there is not a UK law that makes it illegal for a citizen of this country to enlist in the military of a foreign state.

  77. Craig Patrick

    5 Sep, 2014 - 8:32 am

    One month ago my car was vandalised for having five YES stickers on it. The matter was reported to the local police station in Auchterarder and investigated by a Constable McLoed. He checked with all my neighbours and with the local hotel and I wish to thank him for his effort.

    Perhaps I should photograph the damage and put it online?

  78. Thanks Brian,
    WoW !! Jeanne Freeman ! She was fantastic.Unfased and really put Neill into his place as if he was a novice.Westminster could negate that argument totally by exempting the NHS from the TTIP agreement,but they won’t because their intentions,Labour’s too, are to continue with privatisation in England & north of the border

  79. Call me Cringe: I’ve used health services all over Europe.From Greece to Scandinavia, Germany and Austria and including the services North and South of the border.It’s better than Greece and for the most part holds its own with the others.There have been big improvements in Scotland the last 10 years.It’s maybe average in your eyes, but its better than what we would receive with a Privatised NHS,not to mention all the citizens that would find themselves unable to pay and without cover.
    Old saying is ,if its not broke ,dont fix it.Well we have had successive Governments in Westminster that are determined to break it so’s they can apply their private fix and fill theirs and other pockets in a similar scam to the Royal Mail and British Rail.
    If they spent as much effort improving as they do undermining , it would even exceed your expectations.

  80. “Oh Fred,Fred,Fred…

    You’re such a pathetichally thick pant-pissing troll bitch it’s hilarious.

    You really are as stupid as stupid gets.

    Michael White??

    Is anyone really surprised by these gofers anymore?

    Yet another spook bitch so far up Blair’s arse-as long as his brown envelopes full of ca$h keeping pooping out.”

    Once again thuggery in action.

    How on earth can people argue this does not happen when here it is happening on this blog for all to see.

    I have done nothing but put my opinion on this thread and I have been subjected to appalling personal abuse as anyone can see.

  81. “Perhaps I should photograph the damage and put it online?”

    I think we can take your word for it.

    More evidence, people do get their cars vandalised because they have campaign stickers on them.

    So why are some here trying to pretend it doesn’t happen? Why is a newspaper reporter being called a “revolting liar” for saying he has been told by people they would have concerns?

  82. Call me Cringe

    5 Sep, 2014 - 9:22 am

    DonnyDarko

    Better than Greece doesn’t inspire much confidence. I think we finished last in a league table of 8 European health services.

  83. In a recent survey of health care in 11 developed countries, Britain came first. Here is the UK’s ranking by category:

    Effective care – 1
    Safe care – 1
    Coordinated care – 1
    Patient-centred care – 1
    Cost-related problem – 1
    Timeliness of care – 3
    Efficiency – 1
    Equity – 2
    Healthy lives – 10

    http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror

    Meanwhile, despite the alleged “NHS funding crisis”, the government is spending £3.5 billion to buy totally unnecessary armoured vehicles from a US company – a small part of the tribute we pay for the alleged “special relationship”. (Notice how the vehicles’ final assembly and testing will be carried out in Spain rather than the UK, as originally promised).

    http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140903/DEFREG01/309030020/General-Dynamics-UK-Wins-Scout-SV-Deal-From-Britain

  84. Call me Cringe

    5 Sep, 2014 - 10:29 am

    A liberal American think tank obviously wouldn’t have an interest in finding Britain’s ‘free’ health service to be better than it actually is.

    Do you actually follow the health debate in the US or do you just google “NHS best health service in the world” and paste whatever comes up?

  85. Actually, I’ve spent much of my adult life as a user of the US health care system.

  86. Call me Cringe

    5 Sep, 2014 - 10:43 am

    Tell me, who is suggesting the adoption of a US-style health system?

  87. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    5 Sep, 2014 - 11:01 am

    Call me Cringe 5 Sep, 2014 – 7:55 am

    “The point about Fred is he resorts to abuse only when he is on the receiving end of it. Whether you agree with him or not, Fred gives rational arguments that inevitably attract abuse from the Yes side when they find it hard to argue with them.”

    I wouldn’t argue with any of that, but his aggrieved tone regarding personal insults directed at him was too delicious to ignore. I quoted his own words back at him without comment, safe in the knowledge that he couldn’t flame me without being hypocritical.

  88. @Vronsky 8:52pm,

    Fair enough, I guess George Soros will make another killing at our expense come 18th.

  89. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    5 Sep, 2014 - 11:13 am

    Call me Cringe 5 Sep, 2014 – 7:45 am

    So according to Brian, Mary and Node, Andrew Neil is a vile, oily, slimy stooge. All for doing his job of asking awkward questions. Obviously they would rather he just sat there nodding his head.

    Andrew Neil is a vile, oily, slimy stooge because he is trying to further the agenda of one side of the debate while pretending to be neutral.
    He wasn’t asking “awkward questions”, he was misrepresenting the facts. When Jeane Freeman called him on it, he was unable to deny it.

  90. nevermind, Scotland will be free

    5 Sep, 2014 - 11:21 am

    @ call me cringe. So if you have sworn an oath to serve your country, you can go and enlist in the zionist IDF, can you? who would want to be a turncoat?

    I have sworn an oath and I will never fight again for any nation, ever! But I will fight tooth and nail for my family and all that entails.

  91. If anything, it’s the other way around. I made the mistake of parking my Yes-emblazoned car in a lane in Glasgow city centre on the day of an Orange march, and would you believe it, I came back to find the wing mirror kicked off (no other car was damaged, and they would have been far easier to vandalise). Also, when out canvassing for Yes, I’ll ask Yes voters if they want a poster or car sticker to show their support. Many have said they don’t want a brick through their window or their car damaged.

    The reason there’s such little visible support for No is simple: very, very few people are actually enthusiastic about the union. Many No voters are reluctant, as deep down they’d actually quite like Scotland to be independent, but just don’t think we can afford it (nowhere near as many as there were two years ago, though). Others simply can’t be bothered thinking about it and will vote No reflexively. Very few are actually doing it out of passionate support for the union, and therefore they feel no desire to put a sign in their window or walk about with a badge.

    Same reason they have to pay their activists, basically.

  92. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 11:53 am

    Fred writes

    ““Here’s Habbakuk’s trick, bleeding over to so-called fred, who’s now also taken to chewing the scenery in pop-eyed histrionic fear, shaking like a leaf. One would think that for a genuine proud Scot it would be somewhat demeaning to act such a sniveling pussy. I know frail elderly ladies with more evident balls.”

    Proof, if proof were needed that it isn’t possible to make a rational argument without being subjected to personal abuse and bullying.”
    ____________________

    I’ve had my disagreements with Fred in the past, but I do find it curious (and revealing) that the points he makes on this issue – in a calm, reasonable and rational manner – have been met so far with nothing but abuse both personal and material.

    Very unimpressive.

  93. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 12:00 pm

    Node

    “fred 4 Sep, 2014 – 8:29 pm

    “This is precisely what I was saying. Your repeated personal remarks about me are intimidating. Online bullying. If anyone puts any point of view but yours you subject them to personal abusive comments.”

    Fred 10 Oct, 2013 – 8:53 pm

    “Why don’t you just accept that you are a shit for brained moron who hasn’t got a clue.”…..etc, etc…”
    _______________________

    Well, Fred does have a policy of replying vigorously to what he perceives as personal insult.

    But the fact is that in these lengthy discussions on the referendum and Scottish independence he has made his points with exemplary politeness and reasonableness.

    Perhaps it is precisely that – together with his persistence (he won’t be worn down) – which makes the loudmouths and abusers so angry?

  94. Are there two Call Mr Cringes? Two different avatars indicate different IP addresses and/or e-mail addresses AFAIK.

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 12:07 pm

    “Oh Fred,Fred,Fred…

    You’re such a pathetichally thick pant-pissing troll bitch it’s hilarious.

    You really are as stupid as stupid gets.

    Michael White??

    Is anyone really surprised by these gofers anymore?

    Yet another spook bitch so far up Blair’s arse-as long as his brown envelopes full of ca$h keeping pooping out.”
    ___________________

    The above – from the egregious Jives – illustrates my points perfectly.

    It also gives me the opportunity to ask Jives a question I’ve been meaning to ask for a while now.

    Jives is obviously on the night shift somewhere, as most of his screechings are written in the wee hours. They often also sounds as if he was drunk when he sent them.

    Could Jives – as a personal favour to me – let me know where he works? This would help me avoid buying any of the products made by the firm he works for (I would not be confident about their quality and durability, as he might have made them) and talk every possible measure to avoid ever entering the hospital he works at (on the basis that I would wish to leave said hospital cured rather than in a coffin).

    Thanks in advance, Jonathan.

    Whether working in an industrial entreprise or in a hospital

  96. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 12:12 pm

    Call me Cringe writes

    “Mary

    “STOP BRITISH CITIZENS JOINING ISRAELI MILITARY”

    I think most people are more concerned about British Muslims rampaging across Syria and Iraq beheading journalists and what these people may do once they are inevitably allowed to return here.

    Also, you can’t stop British citizens joining the Israeli military because there is not a UK law that makes it illegal for a citizen of this country to enlist in the military of a foreign state.”
    _________________

    Exactly right.

    Response please, Mary.

    ****************

    BTW thanks for giving us a break from your idiocies, even if it was only for 24 hours or so.

  97. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 12:23 pm

    DonnyFromTheDarkSide

    “Call me Cringe: I’ve used health services all over Europe.From Greece to Scandinavia, Germany and Austria and including the services North and South of the border.”
    __________________

    Sounds like you’re a bit of a rolling stone, Donny.

    But whatever.

    You’ll of course be aware – even though you carefully omit to say it – that in some of those countries you’ll have had to hand over some cash either to the doctor or the hospital and pay the pharmacist something (you may of course have been partially reimburse afterwards). And you survived, both medically and financially.

    You’ll know that some of the Eminences rave on about the sanctity of the “free at the point of use” principle.

    In the light of your experience – which you quote to make a point about quality – do you believe that the “free at the point of use” principle is essential and should be sacrosanct?

  98. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 12:31 pm

    Mary

    “STOP BRITISH CITIZENS JOINING ISRAELI MILITARY”

    ______________________

    There are young men in the UK who have dual UK and Greek nationality.

    Military service is compulsory for young Greek men. If they are not resident in Greece, they can be exempted upon request and have to pay something for that exemption.

    My question to you : should a young man, resident in the UK and with dual UK and Greek nationality, be prevented from doing his national service in the Greek armed forces if he should so wish?

    Or do you only support a ban when it’s a question of Israel?

    There’s a perfectly legitimate question, politely put. Let’s see if you could be bothered to answer it.

  99. Haababkuk

    The problem is that you are so constrained by Establishment think that you cannot imagine that what is does not equal what ought to be. Yes it is legal for British citizens to join the IDF and go and kill children. It is legal for them to join Aegis and take part in numerous drive past shootings. But – and try to make the leap of imagination – perhaps it ought not to be?

  100. I entirely agree – there are far too many abstruse arguments going on about what is or is not legal. Apparently it was not Tallyrand but a contemporary who said (of an execution ordered by Napoleon) “worse than a crime, it was a mistake…” The mere fact that something is legal does not make it sensible.

    The question of dual loyalties of dual nationals is something that needs a longer discussion. Service in the military forces of another country used to be enough to lose US nationality, and South Africa has a similar law against service with provate military companies

  101. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    5 Sep, 2014 - 1:20 pm

    Well, Fred does have a policy of replying vigorously to what he perceives as personal insult.
    But the fact is that in these lengthy discussions on the referendum and Scottish independence he has made his points with exemplary politeness and reasonableness.”

    fred 10 Mar, 2014 – 10:40 pm, addressing Habbakuk

    You are obviously a shit for brained moron retard.
    So don’t tell me what my opinions are dick head and don’t go broadcasting your delusions about me around around this blog because you just don’t have a clue…..
    Now fuck off.”

  102. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 2:33 pm

    Node

    I wrote

    “But the fact is that in these lengthy discussions on the referendum and Scottish independence he has made his points with exemplary politeness and reasonableness.””

    You replied as follows, quoting Fred

    ““You are obviously a shit for brained moron retard.
    So don’t tell me what my opinions are dick head and don’t go broadcasting your delusions about me around around this blog because you just don’t have a clue…..
    Now fuck off.””

    Was the above quote from an exchange about the referendum and Scottish independence?

  103. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 2:48 pm

    Craig

    “Haababkuk

    The problem is that you are so constrained by Establishment think that you cannot imagine that what is does not equal what ought to be. Yes it is legal for British citizens to join the IDF and go and kill children. It is legal for them to join Aegis and take part in numerous drive past shootings. But – and try to make the leap of imagination – perhaps it ought not to be?”
    ______________________

    You can take Craig out of the FCO, but you can’t take the FCO techniques out of Craig. I rather approve, actually. :)

    You know perfectly well the point I was trying to make. I wished to elicit from Mary on whether she believes that any UK/xxx dual national should be forbidden to serve in the armed forces of country xxx, or whether she was suggesting that such an interdiction should only apply to people with dual UK/Israeli nationality. I hope that Mary will not feel that your comment absolves her from answering that question.

    Secondly, your comment about mercenaries raises an entirely different matter. I submit that there is a difference (in several respects) between serving in the regular armed forces of a foreign country whose nationality you happen to have and hiring yourself out to any outfit that’s willing to pay you enough to lake it worth your while.

    And, finally, I’m quite aware that what is is often not what ought to be. But that, if pushed to the limit, seems to be a recipe for anarchy.

    With great truth and respect!

  104. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 2:51 pm

    BTW, are we in a categorisation exercice?

    Lies

    Damned lies.

    White lies.

  105. ” I regard attacking billboards – ones not on residential property – as a perfectly acceptable manifestation of political exuberance. Always been done, always will be, by all sides. ”

    Fine, but it still constitutes criminal damage.

    I would agree that on the face of it the damage to the man’s car hardly seems worth making a lot of fuss over but to conclude from that that it was self-inflicted seems unwarranted. Let’s see some evidence.

  106. “Was the above quote from an exchange about the referendum and Scottish independence?”

    Node is just trying to intimidate me Habdabkuk.

    He has no rational argument, he thinks if he muck rakes through the archives he can intimidate me into keeping quiet. He has nothing to say about the issues of the thread, intimidation, so he intimidates.

    Everyone knows I stand up to bullies and if Node had been more honest and posted my words in context that is what he would have shown. That has no relevance at all on if the personal abuse directed at me in this thread was meant to intimidate or not.

    I think I have proven my point regarding intimidation in the referendum campaign or rather Node and his friends have proven it for me.

  107. Fred, Node,

    Please both of you be politer to each other. Neither of you is normally unpleasant.

    Kempe

    I do not conclude from the apparently very temporary nature of the “damage” that the man did or organised it himself. I don’t know. But I do say that has to be seriously considered among other possibilities, one of which is that a Yes supporter did it.

  108. Yes it is correct that I have been away from my home for 30 hours but the troll(s) will not know whence or why. Could they mind their own bloody business.

    The chief troll obviously does not understand the illogicality and hypocrisy of labelling Muslims who to go abroad to kill illegally as terrorists whilst Britons who go abroad to kill illegally are not considered to be tewwwowists.

    PS Was the ex UK ambassador to Poland (and he knows who he is) in that country at the time when the Polish government were providing locations for rendition and torture?

    Op-Ed ‘Black sites’ ruling a rebuke to Poland, the CIA and torture http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-margulies-poland-black-site-rendition-ruling-20140727-story.html

    Flights were going through Prestwick as far as I recall. That was in the time of NuLabour when Messrs Blair and Straw (Foreign Secretary 2001-6) and the other war criminals held power. I see in the article that Romania and Lithuania were also implicated. Did Dalia have a part in the black arts. I know she has a black belt in judo. We were told so by the troll.

    Those famous words of a journalist haunt us. ‘Have you got blood on your hands Mr Blair?’

  109. I ask that as the ex ambassador to Poland has just revisited the country to pick up a few zlotys from attendees on one of his ‘courses’. Perhaps they pay him in US $ as we know what a safe and reliable currency that is. NOT.

    Charles Crawford @CharlesCrawford · Sep 4

    Off to #Gdańsk from #Vienna via #Berlin

    “In Berlin by the wall
    you were five foot ten inches tall”

    https://twitter.com/CharlesCrawford

  110. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 3:44 pm

    Mary

    “The chief troll obviously does not understand the illogicality and hypocrisy of labelling Muslims who to go abroad to kill illegally as terrorists whilst Britons who go abroad to kill illegally are not considered to be tewwwowists.”

    ______________________

    Did your original comment about people going off to serve in the Israeli army and my question in response to it mention Muslims or the word “terrorist”?

    No, they didn’t.

    So stop deviating and answer my question!

  111. doug scorgie

    5 Sep, 2014 - 4:56 pm

    Fred (The Englishman who hates living in Scotland but can’t leave for some reason)

    4 Sep, 2014 – 7:54 pm

    “I think people do feel intimidated and it’s hardly surprising when there are blogs such as this one preaching hatred…”

    ———————————-

    Who’s preaching hatred Fred?

    ———————————

    “Windows do get broken and tyres do get slashed.”

    ———————————

    Yes Fred, it’s called vandalism. It happens where I live – Wimbledon.

    When you go to vote Fred, remember it’s a secret ballot so, as long as you don’t turn up wearing the butcher’s, apron you should be alright.

    You could also practice the Rab C Nesbitt accent in case someone talks to you.

  112. “Fred, Node,

    Please both of you be politer to each other. Neither of you is normally unpleasant.”

    Excuse me but when I get personal abuse like this thrown at me:

    “Oh Fred,Fred,Fred…You’re such a pathetichally thick pant-pissing troll bitch it’s hilarious.”

    Why on earth is it me you accuse of being impolite?

  113. I marvel that your surveillance of Michael White is so complete that you could know that he was making up stories about intimidation. But come the 18th, the trurh will be made known by the ballot box!

  114. Tell us about Poland Troll-y.

  115. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 5:36 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “Fred (The Englishman who hates living in Scotland but can’t leave for some reason)”
    _________________

    Fred has never implied, much less written, that he hates living in Scotland. Nor has he ever implied, much less written, that he has wished to leave Scotland.

    So, as so often, you’re lying, Doug.

    Perhaps your objective is to discredit Craig by implication and stealthy underhand comparison (“Craig, the Englishman who would love to live in Scotland but hasn’t been able to leave England for some reason”)?

  116. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 5:41 pm

    Mary

    Are you going to answer my question, Mary?

    You appear to be a reluctant witness in your own cause, don’t you. Your motto is evidently “never explain, never excuse” – pure chutzpah.

    Was I in Warsaw? Where were you for those thirty missing hours?

    And could you possibly arrange to go away for thirty days next time?

  117. “Fred (The Englishman who hates living in Scotland but can’t leave for some reason)”

    Once more the comments directed against me not at the issues. More personal abuse.

    What on earth makes you think I don’t like Scotland? I’m not the one trying to change it.

  118. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 5:45 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    I’m not sure whether to believe you when you claim to live in Wimbledon.

    You have shown your story changes from time to time : black man/white man; lawyer/not a lawyer; Wimbledon/Scotland.

    Stand up, the real Mr Scorgie!

    On second thoughts, don’t bother. :)

  119. “Perhaps your objective is to discredit Craig by implication and stealthy underhand comparison (“Craig, the Englishman who would love to live in Scotland but hasn’t been able to leave England for some reason”)?”

    Didn’t he leave?

    I had the impression he’d emigrated to Spain for some reason.

    I must have imagined it…or maybe not.

  120. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 6:07 pm

    Three months, Fred, not really an emigration.

  121. doug scorgie

    5 Sep, 2014 - 6:25 pm

    Call me Cringe
    5 Sep, 2014 – 8:28 am

    “Also, you can’t stop British citizens joining the Israeli military because there is not a UK law that makes it illegal for a citizen of this country to enlist in the military of a foreign state.”

    —————————————-

    Quite true Cringe but perhaps legislation should be brought in.

    The lack of any ban on foreign enlistment leads to the slightly odd situation where a Briton can travel to Syria to fight FOR the Assad regime with impunity, but if he sides with enemies of the regime he could face prosecution as a terrorist back in Britain.

    This is because of the broad scope of anti-terror legislation. The government set out new laws which mean Brits who travel overseas to train for acts of terrorism AGAINST ANY GOVERNMENT will be prosecuted as if their actions had taken place in the UK.

    But the case could be made that laws banning British citizens from enlisting in a country’s military, which is engaged in suspected war crimes, illegal occupation and human rights abuses, should be enacted.

    That would include a few nasty countries but we are talking Israel here and we know that such a law would not be allowed to pass.

  122. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    5 Sep, 2014 - 6:50 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    ““Also, you can’t stop British citizens joining the Israeli military because there is not a UK law that makes it illegal for a citizen of this country to enlist in the military of a foreign state.”

    —————————————-

    Quite true Cringe but perhaps legislation should be brought in.”
    _____________________

    I don’t think so, Doug. For starters, it would be in contradiction with that part of UK law which allows for dual citizenship. In practical terms it would put dual nationals in an impossible situation : UK law would forbid a person to do his national service in another state in which national service might be compulsory.

    Look, let’s not be hypocritical about this – if it were not for the case of dual UK/Israeli citizens, you Eminences and other useful idiots would not have uttered a peep about this.

  123. The South Africans do http://mercury.ethz.ch/serviceengine/Files/ISN/116054/ichaptersection_singledocument/1d71f82c-121a-4d80-881d-a1bb2a28a6c4/en/9.pdf

    The big bad US does not like it either:

    “Military service by U.S. nationals may cause problems in the conduct of our foreign relations since such service may involve U.S. nationals in hostilities against countries with which we are at peace. For this reason, U.S. nationals facing the possibility of foreign military service should do what is legally possible to avoid such service.” http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/citizenship-and-foreign-military-service.html

    It would indeed demand that the UK relax its very lax rules on multiple nationality, but that might be no bad thing if it gets people thinking about the obligations of citizenship as well as the plus points.

  124. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    5 Sep, 2014 - 9:48 pm

    a Briton can travel to Syria to fight FOR the Assad regime with impunity, but if he sides with enemies of the regime he could face prosecution as a terrorist back in Britain.

    But if he travels to Syria to fight FOR the Assad regime WITH Hizb’ullah he’s back in terrorist country. A further wrinkle…

  125. Well well well..

    We’ve hardly seen HabbaClown these last few weeks on here.

    Until the Ukrainian ceasefire-yet now again the post frequency is again marked,ubiquitous.

    We see right through your pandry missions Habba.

    As a troll you’re really rather poor Habba,failed even.

    Mmmm.

  126. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    6 Sep, 2014 - 3:04 pm

    Heard Patrick Stewart on R4 this morning. Described Hizb’ullah as being the only group bravely and successfully fighting ISIS.

    Best potential allies in the region, it seems to me.

  127. Resident Dissident

    6 Sep, 2014 - 3:26 pm

    “Best potential allies in the region, it seems to me.”

    Isn’t one of the reasons why this whole mess started was because we allied ourselves with the mujaheddin – and now you are advocating that we ally ourselves with a group that sees suicide bombing and such like as legitimate techniques of war to say nothing of political and religious views. I few should ally ourselves with anyone in the Middle East it should be with those with more liberal and (relatively) more secular views – and yes they do exist, despite the racist views that they are all either despots or religious fundamentalists in that part of the world.

  128. http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1409995714.html

    Amena Saleem’s neat account of Hamas facts
    Posted by John Hilley on September 6, 2014, 10:28 am

    (via fb)

    The BBC, in its reporting on Gaza, only ever describes Hamas as a ‘militant organisation’ which ‘seized control of Gaza’. However, the reality, which this deliberately inaccurate BBC phrasing hides, is that Hamas is a political party which the Palestinian people elected to represent them. By positioning Hamas as violent militants who seized power, the BBC attempts to strip all legitimacy from a political party which was given a mandate to govern. The inaccurate BBC phrasing also gives credence, in the minds of an uninformed news audience, to Israel’s claim that it is fighting against militants who imposed themselves on Gaza. It is phrasing which denies the facts in order to privilege a false Israeli narrative and disadvantage the Palestinians.

    Here are the facts:

    Followed by 21 bullet points.

  129. Dave Lawton

    6 Sep, 2014 - 8:20 pm

  130. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    6 Sep, 2014 - 10:48 pm

    RD – I am assuming, (intentionally provocatively) that we actually want to defeat ISIS. In which case the obvious strategy is to mend “our” fences with Assad, Iran (which has indicated its conditional willingness to play), Syria (which despite its possible comtinuing use of chlorine gas, which is easily made from common bleach, has honoured its commitment to give up its serious war gases) and Hizb’ullah, which, as Stewart says, has performed notably better than the Kurds against ISIS. This would also be attractive to the Shi’a majority in Iraq, ie the section of Iraqi society least likely to join ISIS and fight for a Wahabi caliphate.

    This would make rather better sense than allying ourselves with Israel, which sees ISIS as the enemy of its enemy Assad, and is probably helping to train it*, not to mention Saudi Arabia and Qatar, which are certainly financing and arming it.

    The rejection of this strategic option, which would crush for once and for all ISIS’ ambitions in the region, at least until the next mad mahdi got his shit together, strongly supports the hypothesis that we don’t want to inconvenience ISIS at all.

    *Anyone else noticed that Israel and ISIS seem to be operating a nice little nonaggression pact east of Golan? THat Israel only shells Assad’s positions? That the bloodthirsty defenders of the New Caliphate, in their eagerness to destroy the Jewish heretics occupying Palestine, er, leave them completely alone?

  131. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    6 Sep, 2014 - 11:24 pm

    Charles Crawford @CharlesCrawford · Sep 4

    Off to #Gdańsk from #Vienna via #Berlin

    Stay there, Charlie. Your country A Ukrainian oligarch needs you.

  132. Charles Crawford is yet another ultra-cynical/strategic blowhard PaedoMinster slave that’ll say anything to protect his expenses,and kind.

    Allegedly.

  133. I have had a Yes voter decline Yes posters on the grounds of a fear the windaes will be put in. This was on the doorstep during a canvass here in Dundee. A middle class area as it happens.

    Another Yes person (elderly woman, lots of elderly people are voting Yes) asked if I knew why there were so few No posters or stickers. I reckon it is because they are feart. To be No you must be feart generally. The only No signs I have seen are on farmland facing roads. Apparently it isn’t the farmers doing it, it’s the landowners.

    I agree that the fear is groundless. I too have not heard of a single incident of windows being put in because of election material in them.

    Similarly I had absolutely no aggro wandering the streets and travelling on buses in full Yes regalia, fully badged up. Instead I have been sought out for advice and discussion by the unsure and before Tuesday last week for registration advice. Mind you that is still happening. I was asked for advice from someone who will be away on the 18th but did not get a postal vote request in in time. There is still time to arrange a proxy vote though. In person at a registration office.

    People are hungry for information, for facts, for Wee Blue Books, for reassurance the scare stories are just that. That rUK’s current account deficit is so big they will do anything to keep our oil in the Sterling zone so there will be a CU. Stuff like that.

  134. DavidFromScotland

    11 Sep, 2014 - 10:57 pm

    My dearest friend, Craig,

    Yesterday, a 20 year old girl in Perth was reduced to tears by the thuggish behaviour of a “Yes” Campaigner. All she was doing was handing out leaflets. If this was a one-off heat of the moment event, then not much to worry about, but it wasn’t. In Kinross, yesterday, an SNP councillor was given an on-the-spot fine for breach of the Peace. There have been many other cases of overt racist aggression – I, myself, was called a traitor last saturday. Obviously, this bullying reflects more on the bully than on the victim, but it DOES have an impact. People ARE afraid of putting up posters or revealing publicly their opinions. The Yes “campaign” like to talk about project Fear whenever an uncomfortable truth is mentioned, but what about the blatant intimidation by deluded bully boys, They talk about freedom but they don’t like free speech or a free press. I fear for democracy in an independent Scotland.

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