Counter-Revolution 712


What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.

Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds.  It will of course be in the name of secularism.  There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt.  I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast.  “Secularism” was the cry there too.

 


712 thoughts on “Counter-Revolution

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  • fedup

    “The fundamental cause of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”

    Oh so condescending! How intelligent is it to push a series of contradictory positions on a whole lot of issues as “doubts”? In fact it is not intelligent but fucking clever! Stupid, yeah lately looked at what you have been sputtering around the board? If its not me, then there is always Mary to have a go at Oh the Stupid are cocksure; Yes, Mary, Theresa May and her diabetes have been all over the place today.. Talking for all those who read the comments, now that is really not cocksure assumptive position, not at all.

    ===

    I grew up on a diet of very old movies and so picked up and now project some of that old-time vibe on this blog, often sardonically

    That explains a lot, to learn world according to Hollywood; as written all over you fucking diatribes. Then akin to a plot of the best B mvoies; my imaginary old age many times on this blog! Yeah so convincing, so very convincing, forget about the bitter crap that have been sputtered around the place by a bitter old fucking geriatric who has declared war on the whole of fucking existence, never mind the planet.

    Sardonically, my arse, more like an old tosser pours venom, bile and bitterness, taking it out on the world for all his fucking failures and shortcomings. Imaginary yeah, that too, you are doing a lot of imagining there, pardner.

    Being old is not a fault or a disadvantage, it is a consequence of being young. However what is damning is to have not learnt from the experience of life, and to be devoid of love for a life that was never valued and so wasted, only to end up so bitter and twisted. Wisdom unfortunately can only come from knowledge, knowledge is only made possible through love of life, and respect for all living. Otherwise the obtuse minds and closed hearts can never evolve.
    ===

    Boy good job these “democratic Generals in Egypt” respect the secular human rights and only shoot the MB supporters.

    Over 100 supporters claimed dead as soldiers are accused of shoot-to-kill policy to clear protest urging Morsi’s release

  • Jemand - Censorship Improves History

    Fedup wisely tells us, from his heart –

    “.. what is damning is to have not learnt from the experience of life, and to be devoid of love for a life that was never valued and so wasted, only to end up so bitter and twisted. Wisdom unfortunately can only come from knowledge, knowledge is only made possible through love of life, and respect for all living. Otherwise the obtuse minds and closed hearts can never evolve.”

    After spitting in our faces –

    “.. Oh so condescending! .. Stupid, yeah lately looked at what you have been sputtering around the board? .. forget about the bitter crap that have been sputtered around the place by a bitter old fucking geriatric who has declared war on the whole of fucking existence, never mind the planet. .. more like an old tosser pours venom, bile and bitterness, taking it out on the world for all his fucking failures and shortcomings. ..”

    I’m not a psychologist, but I’m pretty sure he’s schizophrenic. And I’m not convinced that he is not an Islamist given that he walks and quacks like an Islamist. Moderate Muslims certainly have their work cut out disassociating themselves from the likes of Fedup.

  • Dreoilin

    I posted a report from Al Jazeera, about Egypt, on a thread higher up, and it got no reaction. I went looking for it, to ask Suhayl’s opinion of it. But I couldn’t find my own comment which included the link. So I went and searched on Al Jazeera. And I find that the original report has caused controversy. The controversy is reported here

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/07/201371315254181476.html

    The original report is visible here

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/07/2013710113522489801.html

    It involves the NED (National Endowment for Democracy) which is frequently criticized on the Landdestroyer blog for engaging in, or funding, ‘protest’ (interference) in other countries (one example being Pussy Riot).

  • Dreoilin

    “I’m not a psychologist, but I’m pretty sure he’s schizophrenic.”

    I wouldn’t know about that, Jemand. But he’s sure full of hot air. 😉

  • arsalan

    SS I see you still insist that it is only democracy when it is your own people who get elected?
    If you call the people who were elected ISlamist, than it means the egyptian people are Islamists. They were the people that elected them.
    Im sure someone like you would consider their rule as oppression, but I am sure they would find your rule, or the rule of the tiny minority in Egypt you support as oppressive.
    And that is the point, your views are only shared by a tiny minority in Egypt.
    Most people are the brotherhood who you call Islamist, they are followed by the Salafi who you call Extreme Islamists. Next comes the people who want millitry rule, because they know in a country like egypt, where the majority of people want Islamic law, the only alternative to it is oppressive millitry rule. At least some people are honest enough to admit it.
    The hypocritical left who call play with words, claiming it is democracy if the people want what they want, and dictatorship when they want something else is the tiny minority that is left over.

    People like the Zionists, including the Zionists politicians here and the Zionists press here admit it openly. Democracy in the Muslim world = ISlamic government. They admit that is why they support the dictators and kings.
    Some in the left are just as dictatorial, but they just don’t have the guts to be honest.
    So what is it SS, when eer there is an election, and people you don’t like get elected. That is dictatorship and not democracy. BEcause if you don’t like them, it means, the people, changed their minds directly after the election?

  • arsalan

    I’m going back to the forum until after eid at the earlist.
    Just to make clear, none of what I have written was an attack on your politics. It was all an attack on your hypocrisy and dishonestly.

    There are openminded leftests. But you act like a trotskyite. Talking to you is like talking to someone from the Socialists worker. You seem to want to choose who others choose.
    When a election shows the people don’t support what you support, it is a case of “they changed their minds”.
    What kind of nonsense is this?

    There are leftists that say, “I wish they wouldn’t have choosen who they did, but it is there choose not mind”, others that would see the challange of convincing the vast majority of people of their case, and others who would admit, the only way they can have the people ruled by their ways is by force.
    You choose something else. You choose to lie to yourself and others, by living in a dream world where you dictate what others want.

    This is also the mindset by the elite in the middle east. The mindset of “My people love me, they will die for me my people”.
    A mind set where what the people want is not relivant, what matters is what you say they should want. This is the mindset of the westernised elite, who look down on who they consider the ignorant masses.
    I repeat, I view that mindset as no different from the racism held by the imperialists during colonislism.
    More than that, I view it is a continuation of colonialism. I replacement of Direct european rule by natives who rule on behalf of the imperial masters.
    It is just white supremacy by another name.
    SS, no matter how good you think the system you believe in is, it is only democracy if the people it is imposed on want it. Making others live the way you want to be free to do, isn;t freedom for them, if they don’t want it, and they have to be forced to submit to it.
    That is why your secularism is only freedom and democracy in western countries where people wnat it. In Muslim countries where people have just voted for something else, your secularism is dictatorship and oppression.

  • technicolour

    Arsalan, lost track of this slightly, but won’t let this stand. You have in no way shown that Suhayl’s humane, thoughtful posts are anything but that; you have failed to respond to the information he has posted.

  • Jon

    Arsalan,

    I second Technicolour’s point above.

    That is dictatorship and not democracy. BEcause if you don’t like them, it means, the people, changed their minds directly after the election?

    This is the key to your misunderstanding, I think. As I’ve said in the past, you can’t repeat the above ad nauseum and hope that it becomes more true in each instance.

    Here’s the key points for you to respond to:

    1. There was a revolution in which Mubarak was ousted (we agree on this)
    2. The Brotherhood won the election and formed a government (we agree on this)
    3. The government over-reached, especially in relation to presidential decrees
    4. There was another revolution in which widespread dissatisfaction was expressed with Morsi
    5. Morsi was deposed and the army resumed power

    No-one on this thread, I think, has expressed support for the army taking power. As you rightly said, many generals would be pro-Israel and pro-US – an authoritarian stooge government, again.

    So, no-one here has expressed support for removing the Brotherhood because of their religious governance. However, I think it was noted that support for the Brotherhood appears to have collapsed, a year on from the optimism of the first revolution.

    In your last post you have repeated the same unfortunate untruths about colonialism and white supremacy that absolutely no-one has voiced on this thread. They are inventions of your own that you have injected to avoid dealing with the point that the people kicked Morsi out.

    (They may regret doing so if Egypt now turns to civil war or a police state, but that is a very separate matter).

    If you wish to tackle the argument head on, rather than ignoring it, you could take several routes:

    1. The demonstrations were insufficient in size to represent the will of the people (I disagree with this, but I think it might be your view. If you restate it, please cite links)
    2. Morsi was indeed making an undemocratic power-grab and the people are broadly glad to see his downfall. People in Egypt and elsewhere who wish to see an Islamist government in Egypt should now support party X. Or, they should support the Brotherhood with a new leader. (I think that won’t attract much support, but if you do, let’s hear it).

    Ultimately what I am trying to get you to do is to adopt a less dogmatic perspective. You often engineer the facts around your support for Sharia governance, but I don’t think you are aware that you do so. Thus, I give you the benefit of the doubt and continue discussing with you.

    With the above in mind, what are your hopes for Egypt now? My ideal would be to see a socialist secular party in power, but the US would destabilise such a grouping using dirty tricks, and in any case they would find it hard to unify a very divided society. Thus, a moderate leftist group that the US might leave alone, and that could promise economic recovery, jobs and security, whilst improving its relationship with Islamic neighbours, would be good. I’d prefer them to be secular, but if the people choose Islamic-democratic at the voting booth, then okay.

    (I’ll come back to the religious debate, Jemand, when I’ve much more time).

  • Paul Barbara

    Kemal Ataturk was turned by the West, and joined Freemasonry in a Lodge in Salonika; many Muslims are aware of this. The Turkish military, like that of Egypt and Pakistan, is in the pockets of the Yanks.
    Arab Spring my posterior. The whole thing was brought about, like the colour revolutions in ex-Soviet states, by Yankee dollars, George Soros, NED, and other poxies (pardon, ‘proxies’).
    In 2007 (and also, I believe, in 2006) 4* General (ret) Wesley Clark, ex-Supreme Allied Commander Europe, stated in video interviews that he had visited the Pentagon shortly after the 9/11 attacks (he had an open invitation to visit the Pentagon anytime he was in town) and was told by a serving 3* General, who he had worked with, that the US was going to topple ‘7 governments in 5 years’ (just search that plus ‘Wesley Clark’) and named them: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran.
    Obviously the time scale slipped, but other countries have obviously been added: Cote D’Ivoire, Tunisia and Egypt.
    Again, Arab Spring my aunt Fannie.
    Secular/Clerical: bit like Demoprat and Repugnant, or the similar charade that marks UK ‘Democratic Elections’.
    Tweedle Dee, Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dummer (though we’re the dumb ones, for falling for it.
    And to get on my favourite Hobby Horse, check out ‘Aaron Russo Historic Interview’. Like many serious pains in the neck to the Establishment, he is now dead (God rest his soul), having ‘contracted’ cancer when he started speaking out in 2001.
    Nick Rockefeller (yep, in person) befriended Aaron, and told him, eleven months before 9/11, that there was going to be an ‘incident’, and it would lead to the US going into Afghanistan and Iraq, there would be US troops ‘hunting through caves for Arabs’, there would be a ‘War on Terror’, and after that they would go after Venezuela. Rockefeller also tried to recruit Aaron into the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).
    Please watch the interview; you will not be wasting your time.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Aaron_Russo

    Paul Barbara, 3:03am: The usual right-wing mix of the obvious (imperialism, militarism, NED, strategic imperatives, tactical alliances, etc.) with the absurd. Ex-snooker BBC TV presenter typifies the tendency. Also, people in countries in the Middle East do have agency.

    “Kemal Ataturk was turned by the West and joined Freemasonry,” Paul Barbara.

    Turned, from what, exactly? And did he roll up his trouser-leg?

  • Anon2

    ” stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast”

    This is the bullshit we have had to deal for a long time in Turkey. Sorry to say, you are like the has beens who put us in the situation we are in. By giving the government too much power and helping them fill the judiciary with their lodge members. They too used the same words to paint a authoritarian,islamist party as a friend to the people.

    Even photos of the dead people who got killed in gezi are considered evidence of wrong doing in the police state.

    Gezi park protesters are targeted by Erdogan’s ministers, who called on the judiciary to give them for life in jail, using your exact same rhetoric.

    Gezi was also a call to stop the government to try to shape our life. to stop pulling the bullshit USA wants to Turkey to pull in Syria. To stop endless police brutality and such.

    Right now, there are no private media oppostion in Turkey. They either bent the knee by enormous tax fines or got fired or locked up. One basketball player who refused to talk to a pro-Erdogan private channel,got benched in the international tournaments.

    State and private estate working together. That’s what you are defending by trying do demonise the opposition.

    Kemalists, didn’t need your approval in Turkey to promote secularism in 1928. The civil protesters,kemalists among them, don’t need your approval to defend it now.

    Tell the people who “inform” you on the situation in Turkey: Satılmışsınız.

    For people like you, Internet has great memes. Here’s one:

    DEAL WITH IT.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    Absolutely, Anon2, at 12:15pm. The AKP proved the maxim that Islamist political movements are totalitarian at their core. Some do it quick (eg. Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Khomeini et al in Iran, so-called Mujaheddin/Taliban in Afghanistan) and some do it slow (eg. AKP in Turkey, Jamaat-i-Islami and other ‘religious’ parties in Pakistan), but all do it. That is their stated goal and they have demonstrated its pursuance every time they’ve assumed power.

  • Anon2

    That’s the problem with Craig’s spiel. We have heard it for a long time in Turkey.

    Because there simply is no other way to defend an islamist party other than playing to people’s baser desires and demonising the opposition.

    It has gotten stale. Craig’s views on this subject has no validity. 2007 called, they want their rhetoric back.

    Craig has bout into it so deeply, he recited what the ruling party says in defend of itself when reciting the first years of AKP rule. Word by word.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    Well, I don’t support the coup in Egypt either. The Islamists and the Army both hijacked the revolution for their own purposes. And the IMF sits in the background, holding the Egyptian people to ransom.

    Bread (not if the IMF has anything to do with it), justice (not if the Army has anything to do with it) and freedom (not if the Islamists have anything to do with it).

  • Anon2

    “Well, I don’t support the coup in Egypt either. The Islamists and the Army both hijacked the revolution for their own purposes. And the IMF sits in the background, holding the Egyptian people to ransom.

    Bread (not if the IMF has anything to do with it), justice (not if the Army has anything to do with it) and freedom (not if the Islamists have anything to do with it).”

    Pretty much.

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