Putin and International Law

by craig on March 2, 2014 1:22 pm in Uncategorized

By sending troops into the Ukraine, (others than those stationed there by agreement) Putin has broken international law.  That does not depend on the Budapest Memorandum.  It would be a breach of international law whether the Budapest Memorandum existed or not.  The effect of the Budapest Memorandum is rather to oblige the US and the UK to do something about it.

The existence of civil disturbance in a country does not justify outside military intervention.  That it does is, of course, the Blair doctrine that I have been campaigning against for 15 years, inside and outside government.  Putin of course opposes such interventions by the West, in Iraq, Syria or Libya, but supports such interventions when he does them, as in Georgia and Ukraine.  That is hypocrisy.  There are elements on the British left who also oppose such interventions when the West does them, but support when Putin does them.  You can see their arguments on the last comments thread: fascinatingly none of them have addressed my point about Putin’s distinct lack of interest in the principle of self-determination when it comes to Chechnya or Dagestan.

The overwhelming need now is to de-escalate the crisis.  People rushing about in tanks and helicopters very often leads to violence, and here Putin is at fault.  There was no imminent physical threat to Russians in the Crimea, and there is no need for all this military activity.  Ukraine should file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice; the UK and US, as guarantor states, can ask to be attached as guarantor states with an interest in the Budapest Memorandum .  That will fulfil their guarantor obligations without moving a soldier.

The West is not going to provide the kind of massive financial package needed to rescue the Ukraine’s moribund economy and relieve its debts.  It would be great if it did, but with western economies struggling, no western politician is in a position to announce many billions in aid to the Ukraine.  The chances of Ukraine escaping from Russian political and economic domination in the near future are non-existent – the Ukrainians are tied by debt.  That was the hard reality that scuppered the EU/Ukraine agreement.  That hard reality still exists.  The Association Agreement is a very long path to EU membership.

Both Putin and the West are reacting to events which unfolded within Ukraine.  Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich – that was a nationalist reaction to an abrupt change of political direction which seemed to be moving Ukraine decisively into the Russian orbit.  Ukrainians are not stupid and they can see the standard of living in former Soviet Bloc countries which have joined the European Union is now much higher .  Anybody who denies that is deluded.  Of course western governments had programmes to encourage pro-western tendencies in Ukraine, including secret operations. It would be naïve to expect otherwise.  Anybody who thinks Russia was not doing exactly the same is deluded.  But it is a huge mistake to lay too much weight on these efforts – both the West and Russia were taken aback by the strength and speed of the political convulsions in Ukraine, and everybody is still paying catch-up.

Which is why we now need a period of calm, and an end to dangerous military adventurism – which undeniably is coming primarily from Russia.  Political dialogue needs to be resumed.  It is interesting that even the pro-Russian assembly of Crimea region has only called a referendum on more devolved powers, not on union with Russia or independence.  However I still maintain the best way forward is agreement on internationally supervised referenda to settle the position.  The principle of self-determination should be the most important one here.  If any of the regions of Ukraine wish to secede, the goal should be a peaceful and orderly transition.  Effective military annexation by Putin, and insistence by the West that national boundaries cannot be changed, are both unproductive stances.

 

 

 

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248 Comments

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  1. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 1:40 pm

    Any referenda in the Crimea under current conditions would be a farce and a forgone conclusion – it would have to be conditional on Russian withdrawal. It would also be extremely important that guarantees would need to be given for the protection of the human rights of minorities after any election, and in particular the Tartars, so as to avoid yet another bout of ethnic cleansing. Let us not forget that Russia happily backed Serbia in the previous European episode. There also has top be some cost/penalty to Putin if only to stop a repeat performance and to discourager les autres. I am very concerned as to how Putin is likely to use this nationalist flag waving as a pretext for cracking down on his own dissidents.

    In passing, I might also note that Craig’s principle “that the existence of civil disturbance in a country does not justify outside military intervention” is not something that his hero J S Mill would have subscribed to as an absolute principle, and indeed wrote a paper setting our circumstances when it should be overridden (although some of those were a little bit on the racist side).

  2. Craig, this may be purely pro-Russian propaganda, I found it removed from Wikipedia without a supporting source, but if true, would it affect the legal position regarding Russia’s troops in Crimea?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances&diff=597757436&oldid=597756378

    The Russian population in Southern and Eastern Ukraine (who, for example, form over 60 percent of the population of Crimea) had voted for president Yanukovych and his government and strongly felt that their democratic rights have been violated by those who overthrew this government. They felt entitled to apply the same, although much more peaceful, measures to appoint their own government in Crimea. Following the threats from the new government in Kiev, Sergei Aksyonov, the new Prime Minister of Crimea, asked Russia for military assistance in protecting the security of the Russian population in Southern and Eastern Ukrain

  3. Craig, I’m also worried about this, armed action in Russia itself. Of course, it could be a fake news report, “seeded” by Russian authorities; there’s no way for me to tell. Reposted from previous thread:
    ———
    Comments are closed on this article, which I find worrying. That’s the whole article pasted below; nothing more.

    http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/ukraine-crisis-road-idINL6N0LZ03820140302

    (Reuters) – The governor of Russia’s Belgorod region said on Sunday armed groups had tried to cut off a road leading to Ukraine, Interfax news agency reported.

    “Armed men are roaming the area … There was an attempt to close off the road from Moscow to Crimea,” Yevgeny Savchenko was quoted as saying about events on Saturday. “This is really troubling.”

    I agree, Russia should be negotiating, but Russia seems highly panicked by developments in the region. Maybe they feel that matters are being taken out of their hands.

  4. Craig

    It’s unfortunate that you feel the need to compare Russian intervention in the Crimea and Georgia with the West’s actions in Iraq, Syria and Libya.

    How are these even remotely similar?

    And, what does international law have to say about organising coups in other countries?

  5. Linking the Ukraine mess with the Syria mess is inevitable, but not in the sense the Western media and the dreaded Hague propose. Putin and by association the Ukraine people are both being punished for Putin obstructing the attack on Syria by the USA and its chums. It was only a matter of time for the knock on the door with retribution.

    The timing is the key to explaining such events. I imagine the US and their sponsors in the ongoing ousting of Assad the Saudis considered some kind of other disruptive activities during the Olympics but we can at least be happy they waited till after the Sochi Olympics. Whatever the retribution, it had to happen sooner or later to slap Putin on the wrist and to keep him busy on his borders, and to enable the ongoing Saudi/US mission to thwack Assad in Syria.

    Double whammy. The people to feel saddest for are the populations of Ukraine and Syria while the US and Saudis play their “House of Cards” dirty games.

  6. The Ukrainian government was, is and will be gangsters. As is the Russian. The US. UK, EU. And the Scot pretender. Self serving elitist killing machines everyone of em.

    Down with all governments. They can’t be trusted you know.

  7. Thanks Craig.

    I have looked up nationalist.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

    Egalitarian. We are not all equal as some are less fortunate and thus deserve more.

  8. Dave Lawton

    2 Mar, 2014 - 2:16 pm

    Craig ,with regards to international law the US is a well known culprit yet there does not
    seem to be the same fuss made when they break it. Remember Grenada as one example.

  9. Saakashvili was a neocon puppet; Prince Bandar told us Saudi was in charge of Caucasus Islamists; and “we” have been pouring money into the Ukrainian opposition for years in preparation for just such regime change. I’m not defending Yanukovich of Putin, but the West has made a policy out of degrading Russia’s sphere of influence; “we” have enforced ours with Tomahawks and shock and awe.

    Kerry saying Russia is behaving “in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext”.

    The hypocrisy is breath-taking. When you rip up the rule book don’t be surprised when other countries with their own agendas follow your lead.

  10. “Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich – that was a nationalist reaction to an abrupt change of political direction which seemed to be moving Ukraine decisively into the Russian orbit.”

    Sigh…. I find that infinitely depressing coming from someone who is looked to for guidance by confused people who distrust their own government; I really do. Tell me you don’t REALLY believe – Pleeeeze. Otherwise can I ask you to have a ponder about this – second thoughts its good for a bit of a rueful chuckle anyway.

  11. Dave Lawton

    The US is indeed a serial offender in breaking international law, but I am not sure there is little fuss about it!

  12. Clark,

    No, under no circumstances could a pronouncement of the regional government of Ukraine affect the legal position by inviting in Russian troops

  13. As somebody on Medialens says, there were no problems about Hollande invading Mali and later the Central African Republic, or questions raised.

    There are other threads there about Greenwald and Omidyar and one about Craig’s take on Ukraine.

  14. Michel Chossudovsky knows the score, and is very well informed.

    Scary stuff.

    Ukraine and the “Politics of Anti-Semitism”: The West Upholds Neo-Nazi Repression of Ukraine’s Jewish Community
    By Prof Michel Chossudovsky
    Global Research, February 26, 2014

    Region: Europe, Russia and FSU

    Theme: Politics and Religion

    The US and the EU are supporting the formation of a coalition government integrated by Neo-Nazis which are directly involved in the repression of the Ukrainian Jewish community.

    There are about 200,000 Jews living in Ukraine, most of them in Kiev. This community is described as “one of the most vibrant Jewish communities in the world, with dozens of active Jewish organizations and institutions”. A significant part of this community is made up of family members of holocaust survivors. “Three million Ukrainians were murdered by the Nazis during their occupation of Ukraine, including 900,000 Jews.” (indybay.org, January 29, 2014).

    Ukrainian Jews were the target of the Third Reich’s Einsatzgruppen (Task Groups or Deployment Groups) which were supported by Ukrainian Nazi collaborators (Wikipedia). These “task forces” were paramilitary death squads deployed in occupied territories.

    Graphic
    Source: Dennis Nilsson wikimedia.org

    Contemporary Neo-Nazi Threat against Ukraine’s Jewish community

    While the Western media has not covered the issue, the contemporary Neo-Nazi threat against the Jewish community in the Ukraine is real. Ukrainian Neo-Nazis pay tribute to Stepan Bandera, a World War II-era Nazi collaborator who led the pro-Nazi Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B). The contemporary Neo-Nazi Svoboda Party which is supported by Washington follows in the footsteps of the OUN-B.

    /..

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-politics-of-anti-semitism-west-upholds-neo-nazi-repression-of-ukraines-jewish-community/5370790

  15. It is somewhat irrelevant that things got out of control of West hands. What is relevant is that it that the west was supporting the revolution. From that perspective, the Russian reaction was completely predictable.

  16. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 2:54 pm

    I am waiting for someone to inform us that the Soviet liberators were invited into Prague in 1968, Hungary in 1956 in order to squash the counter revolutionary forces of fascism and imperialism. I’m sure it will be somewhere in the deleted pages of Wikipedia.

  17. Indeed Mary. Complete silence from MSM on the fact that neo-Nazis are now in government in Ukraine. And you’re spot on, TonyF12. All this kicked off just as the Olympics were ending. Perhaps the Bandar threat was a feint; the real action was the NGOs mobilising their people.

    Yanukovich may have been a corrupt apparatchik, but this was a coup, with added brownshirt muscle.

    Seventy per cent of German casualties during WW2 were on the Eastenr front. The Soviet Union beat the Nazis, and Russia doesn’t want them on its doorstep again.

  18. Craig,

    if the ouster of Yanukovych was achieved by illegal means, then the Ukraine which should do this or that according to you, would be the Yanukovych Govt’s Ukraine. simple as that.

    the Associated Press had this excerpt squeezed into an otherwise anti-Putin/pro-protesters article. yet it is the most important aspect of this entire sorry episode.

    AP: Ukraine’s Parliament Boss Takes Presidential Powers
    The legitimacy of the parliament’s flurry of decisions in recent days is under question. The votes are based on a decision Friday to return to a 10-year-old constitution that grants parliament greater powers. Yanukovych has not signed that decision into law, and he said Saturday that the parliament is now acting illegally.
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraines-parliament-boss-takes-presidential-powers/495066.html

    all else follows from one’s interpretation of that vote. whether Russia/Putin is right or wrong doesn’t come into it.

    those who take the view that the vote was probably illegal, including myself, MAY or MAY NOT consider ignoring territorial integrity/international law is just as bad (or good) when done by Russia/Putin doing it, as it is when done by Bush/Blair/Obama/Cameron/Israel/Qatar/Australia etc.

    i simply believe that it is THIS legal question about the ouster which should be debated right now, and it isn’t & won’t be – not in the MSM anyway. your legal questions, on the other hand, will be in the MSM, indeed are all over the MSM. i’m not prepared to move on. i would like to see this question resolved.

    you say:

    “Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich” – you don’t know that. it is an opinion.

    as for being deluded if one imagines Russia wasn’t also interfering –

    one: who imagines that?
    two: interference from a deeply-connected neigbouring country does seem less reprehensible than interference from major powers thousands of miles away somehow.

    u say: “Ukrainians are not stupid and they can see the standard of living in former Soviet Bloc countries which have joined the European Union is now much higher” here’s another opinion:

    The Crisis In Ukraine
    By Paul Craig Roberts
    In 2004, Hungary joined the EU, expecting streets of gold. Instead, four years later in 2008 Hungary became indebted to the IMF. The rock video by the Hungarian group, Mouksa Underground sums up the result in Hungary today of falling into the hands of the EU and IMF…
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Crisis-In-Ukraine-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-Crisis_Neocons_Russia_Ukraine-140225-898.html

    EU hasn’t turned out great in Italy with yet another unelected Govt – BBC did benignly say the guy would have been elected if they had elections, so i guess that’s democratic enough!

    all are opinions, so no need to tag people who have a different opinion as “deluded” or pro-Russian.

  19. International law has been severely weakened by the USUKIS alliance and others. The pungent hypocrisy by this ‘exceptional’ band of deceivers is indeed significant.

    Britain and the US has thrown its weight around the international scene for so long without repercussions that it may have forgotten that there are nations in the world that possess capabilities that are not subservient to U.S. interests.

    Mon Dieu! The EU voted on a resolution that condemned the U.S. drone program as a “violation of international law,” ignored UNSC resolutions on Israel’s land theft succinct examples of blatant mockery laws circumvented by deceit.

    The US maintained the ‘Monroe Doctrine’ [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine], protecting its sphere of influence in Latin America, for almost 200 years.

    A step change in awareness occurred in me when I witnessed our own SAS dressed as Arabs planting explosives in Iraq.

    The insipid deception by the West must stop now peeps regardless of International law. Moral authority rules and British and American exceptionalism based on democratic ideals and personal liberty is an illusion, an empty fairy story whose only purpose is to control our lives and the lives of others passionate for peace without the arsenal of mass destruction weapons that give santuary, shield and preserve lives in an increasingly sentient world.

  20. “Seventy per cent of German casualties during WW2 were on the Eastenr front. The Soviet Union beat the Nazis, and Russia doesn’t want them on its doorstep again.”

    Actually, the Soviet Union brought the Nazis to its doorstep by signing the Nazi-Soviet Pact and carving up Poland between each other. Stalin was mortified and disbelieving when Hitler, of all people, betrayed him.

  21. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:08 pm

    “Seventy per cent of German casualties during WW2 were on the Eastenr front. The Soviet Union beat the Nazis, and Russia doesn’t want them on its doorstep again.”

    They are inside the house already – just Google “Far right” and “Russia” and Putin doesn’t seem too concerned about his own fascists he even allowed his favourite Zhironovsky to visit occupied Crimea. The Russians deserve so much better.

  22. Absolutely, Mark. I remember those SAS guys who were grabbed from jail in Basra after being found with a car-boot full of bombs. Nothing like inciting some inter-ethnic strife to justify a “protection” force.

    They were part of the Special Reconnaisance Regiment, set up by Geoff Hoon and commanded by one Brigadier John Gordon Kerr. Check him out with regard to Northern Ireland. He was up to the same dirty tricks there.

  23. RD, Putin obviously prefers Russian nationalists to German ones. Neither are very pleasant.

  24. The following is just one of my FB friend’s comments but thought I’d pass it on for what worth as perhaps you have some insights on the issue of implications of Chernobyl:

    Because of the need for a Sarcophagus to contain the radiation from the nuclear meltdown at the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant in Ukraine, Putin should worry that the Fascists in Kiev could exploit this facility to make dirty radioactive bombs. The Russians should send an airborne combat unit to ensure that the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant is secure. The ultra-right “Svoboda” (Liberty) party has stated through one of its” representatives in the Ukrainian parliament that if Russia doesn’t tread carefully it will be dealing with a nuclear power” as a warning to Russia. In addition, one of Ukraine nationalist leaders called for terrorists to act against Russia. Chernobyl would provide the terrorists with enough radioactive materials to make a dirty bomb for use against Russia. Someone in Russia should take this into consideration.

    “A leader of the Ukrainian radical group Pravy Sektor (Right Sector), Dmitry Yarosh, has called on Russia’s most wanted terrorist Doku Umarov to act against Russia in an address posted on Right Sector’s page in VKontakte social network.”

    “Ukraine nationalist leader calls on ‘most wanted’ terrorist Umarov ‘to act against Russia'” http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-address-umarov-380/

  25. Correction. The emergency NATO meeting took place today.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26404584

    ‘”And so, in addition to calling yesterday’s emergency meeting of the UN Security Council, the United Kingdom will join other G8 countries this week in suspending our co-operation under the G8, which Russia chairs this year, including the meetings this week for the preparation of the G8 summit.”

    He said Britain would keep its approach to further G8 meetings under review.

    In Brussels, Nato has been holding emergency talks about Russia’s move to take control of Crimea.’

    That will shake Putin to the core. Not.

    Wait for the markets to open tomorrow. Oil and gas prices particularly.

  26. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:40 pm

    Craig

    You’ve now posted on several topics with eminent moderation and common sense, and your latest is no exception; I would disagree with nothing you say.

    Just one question which might improve the context you’ve set out even further: you write

    “…the Ukrainians are tied by debt.”

    Can you – or anyone else – give a breakdown of the current Ukrainian debt, please?

  27. Oh. Here you are habby. Both yourself and Angrysoba have been avoiding these questions even though you both are trumpeting the role of parliament in the removal of the president.

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    3. Was the president ousted lawfully and in accordance with the constitution?

  28. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:48 pm

    Herbie

    “And, what does international law have to say about organising coups in other countries?”
    ________________________

    This comment is seriously flawed (assuming it is meant to be serious):

    1/. Firstly, it assumes that the change of government was organised from outside, so you would have to justify that assertion before asking the question;

    2/. rather than asking others to say what international law says, you should yourself tell us, since you obviously believe that it has been broken.

    Thank you.

  29. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 3:57 pm

    [Personal arguments will be deleted]

  30. You are deflecting the the issue. I didn’t know you were a neo-nazi sympathizer until now.

    Why has neo nazi government taken over?

  31. Mike wrote

    “RD, Putin obviously prefers Russian nationalists to German ones. Neither are very pleasant.”

    yes Mike, nor are they anywhere else, just to finsih your list, rightwing fascists are big in France, Belgium,Italy, Greece and the US, not to speak of the fascists in Juapan and or Australia, now a global movement.

    can someone please tell us what Sasha Billy was saying to the public prosecutor? or do I have to ask a more discerning crowd somewhere else?
    somebody should get the guist of what he was on about throttling the young chap up by his tie.

  32. Since eastern Ukraine’s population exceeds western Ukraine, what would be result in election, especially now there is a neo-nazi government in Ukraine?

  33. Habby

    Didn’t Nuland’s conversation with her ambassador indicate that she was pulling strings in terms of which fascist got what job?

    Surely you aren’t suggesting that the US and its allies don’t organise coups in other countries, are you?

    And then there’s those questions above.

    Thanks

  34. fascists are scum, wherever they operate!

  35. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:06 pm

    Herbie

    “Oh. Here you are habby.”
    __________________

    Yes indeed, Herbie. Since you’re the one making the accusations, please answer the questions I asked a short while ago on another thread, and in particular:

    1/. What is the total membership of the Rada?

    2/. How many members took part in the vote?

    3/. What were the voting figures?

    ***********

    It is really time you learnt something of you wish your comments to be taken seriously and seen as being made in good faith: it is flawed on your part to make a claim (or insinuation) and then, when someone contests what you say, ask that person to prove what HE says. You’ve got it the wrong way round : when YOU make a claim (or insinuation), it is for YOU to back it up – with facts.

    Thank you.

  36. “The West is not going to provide the kind of massive financial package needed to rescue the Ukraine’s moribund economy and relieve its debts. It would be great if it did,…”

    Why would it be great if it did? The West has many more trillions of minus zeros, or should that be tr0lli0ns, than Russia. The Russian fleet may be ancient, but it is owned, not borrowed from the bank. The poorest peasant on earth has more money at zero than the average westerner who owes an average 200,000 pounds.

    I am reminded by Craig’s pro EU future for the Ukraine of the Jash/ baby donkeys who first took UK money to cause problems for Saddam Hussain. They were told, like Qaida today in Syria, that they were making jihad for Allah and Islam. Turns out they were shoe-horning western oil companies into access to the black gold under the River Euphrates.

    Those Jash/ milk-baby donkeys got paid for their services and later tortured almost to death by UK controlled agents in Iraq.
    When agents of the West call for an uprising in a former Soviet bloc country they should remember who they are dealing with, viz scum.

    Just because, at the expense of UK wages, certain eastern bloc European countries have multiplied their finances many hundreds of times, does not mean that those countries are not going to be put on the rack at some time to teach them a lesson about getting above their station.

    It took nearly 100 years from 1918 when Churchill asked for Mosul and Palestine from the spoils of the Ottoman Empire to the exploitation by UK related global companies to get their hands on the assets as planned. Kurdistan was ravaged by war and Palestine continues to be ravaged.

    Sweet, sweet poison. You too could be like Poland. You could alternatively get raped like Palestine. White man speak with fork tongue.

  37. Press the Meat has Kerry on…..discussing the Syrian connection……..supports the rebels, blah, blah, but of course The Black Sea, NATO isn’t broached. What a surprise the moderator just wants to trap him into a rhetorical cul-de-sac…….nothing with any depth. Typical.

  38. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:11 pm

    Herbie

    “Didn’t Nuland’s conversation with her ambassador indicate that she was pulling strings in terms of which fascist got what job?”
    _______

    No. But feel free to give verbatim text.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Surely you aren’t suggesting that the US and its allies don’t organise coups in other countries, are you?”
    ___________________

    Red herring. What I was suggesting was that you should attempt to back up your assertions. And I ask you to do so again (my post at 16h06 above).
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Thank you, Herbie

  39. habby

    I haven’t made any claim about the legitimacy of the Ukrainian parliamentary decision.

    But, both yourself and Angrysoba have claimed it as legitimate.

    So, can you please answer the questions put to you:

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    3. Was the president ousted lawfully and in accordance with the constitution?

    Since the issue of parliamentary legitimacy forms a central tenet of your position I think any failure to answer these simple questions ought to be viewed rather negatively in terms of your position.

    Thanks

  40. Good post Craig, especially the last paragraph. Just one quibble-

    ‘Ukraine should file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice; the UK and US, as guarantor states, can ask to be attached as guarantor states with an interest in the Budapest Memorandum.’

    The UK and US would certainly gain some respect for upholding international law on this occasion; however, it is unlikely to cut any ice on the ground- the same International Court ruled a decade ago that the Turkish invasion of northern Cyprus in 1974 was illegal. After nearly 40 years, the Turks are still there.

  41. Nuland: 3 x videos with the verbatim text; including her confirmation that the US has spent $5 billion to secure its objectives (of freedom and democracy naturally) in the Ukraine. And the last one – nervous young US Dept of State spokes-lady, Jan Paski, earnestly assuring us that black is white.

  42. INTERNATIONAL LAW !!!!!!! (Goose? Gander?)

    Obama gives lectures on the concept of sovereignty? Look at the list of countries in which we’ve interfered: Iran, Guatemala, Haiti, Indonesia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile, Argentina, the Philippines, Afghanstan —

    Who complained when Boris Yeltsin — a drunken American toady with single-digit approval ratings — bolstered his popularity by launching a brutal war in Chechnya?. In fact, Bill Clinton compared Yeltsin to — — Abraham Lincoln.

    There are so many axes to grind, so little time.

  43. ‘Can you – or anyone else – give a breakdown of the current Ukrainian debt, please?’

    A quarter of Ukrainian debt is in short term bonds, and must be settled by next summer. The probability of a Ukrainian default is higher than that of any other country, save Argentina.

    http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/ukraine-four-reasons-why-its-going-to-end-in-tears/

  44. Oh dear. It’s not going well.

    “Ukrainian armed forces dispatched to Crimea have switched to the side of local authorities and are expected to take military oath soon, Russian news agencies report.”

    http://rt.com/news/ukraine-military-russia-resign-437/

  45. It is, of course, perfectly reasonable for British people to object against the UK sending troops into a country but don’t give a damn when Putin does – and that is that they are citizens of the UK and have a responsibility for what the UK government does.

    Keeping one’s own house in order, so to say, but dopn’t meddle with the neighbour’s.

    There is also another, quite reasonable cause for not meddling with what the Russians do, and that is htat it may be a waste of energy. It is easier, and may even pay off, to put pressure on one’s own government, but what you say about the Russians would probably not have any results at all.

    Except, and that is the third reason, that it sounds a great deal hypocritic for Britons to teach lessons to other countries on this matter.

  46. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:31 pm

    Herbie

    “I haven’t made any claim about the legitimacy of the Ukrainian parliamentary decision.”

    Please refer to your post at 14h51 on the previous thread.

    “But, both yourself and Angrysoba have claimed it as legitimate.”

    Which post of mine was that, Herbie? But I have asked you for the attendance and voting figures in the Rada – when are you going to provide them, to back up your assertions? Please stop clowning about and get serious.

  47. To tyhe subject of arrests and protests within Russia we must realise that if such demonstartions would happen here and at the same scale, our police would soon call in the armed forces to stiffle it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/liveticker-zur-krim-krise-am-2-maerz-2014-a-956418.html

    This from der Spiegels ‘timeline’home page with pictures from Moscow, St petersburg and various links. Sorry its in German, can’t translate everything, you have to refresh your German, however hard it is when one is learning Mandarin.

    16:12 Ukraine’s War fleet of ten shiops have declared themselves loyal to Kiev. So what was that other story all about a ship wanting to take Russian orders?

    Some 10.000 pro Putin demonstrations in Moscow with 350 arrested for demonstrating against his aggression.

    What, apart from fanning the situation with twitter com ments and shaking hands with the currewnt administration, are western countries doing to mitigate the tensions?

    Who is going to Moscow and Kiev, when does the security council sit on this issue?

  48. Its not that we did not know about it going to happen, we were worried in 2006, according to these Wikileaks cables dug up by slate.com

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/03/01/the_wikileaks_cables_that_anticipated_the_russian_invasion_of_crimea.html

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 4:37 pm

    Old Mark

    “‘Can you – or anyone else – give a breakdown of the current Ukrainian debt, please?’

    A quarter of Ukrainian debt is in short term bonds, and must be settled by next summer. The probability of a Ukrainian default is higher than that of any other country, save Argentina.”
    _____________________

    Thank you for that beginning, Old Mark. To get a clearer picture :

    1/. The other three quarters of the debt – in which form is it, and owned to whom?

    2/. The quarter in short term bonds – to whom is it owned?

    Thank you.

  50. Habby

    I won’t waste further time with you. You’re clearly up to your old diversionary tricks again.

    I merely note that both your and Angrysoba’s claim for the legitimacy of the vote remains unsubstantiated due to your repeated refusal to answer some simple questions on it.

  51. [Personal arguments will be deleted]

  52. Craig.
    You call against escalation and want things to follow through both slowly and politically. Why then your surprise when Crimea is doing just that and not leaping ahead and declaring independence and what not. Fair to presume you applaud their approach?

    I agree with you it looks like the Russians are ever more guilty of the same dirty illegalities the west has become notorious for. Kerry’s words on this stank beyond belief.

  53. There is a broader point too.
    If the elected officials of Ukraine decided to align much more towards Russia, what right does anyone have to stop that? Also, Ukraine should NOT file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice – because the people in charge are NOT elected but planted puppets with no moral or legitimate authority other than that of the cudgel their wield.

    p.s. Yes, the ‘distinct lack of interest’ at Putin in terms of self-determination when it comes to Chechnya or Dagestan by the western left(i.e watered down) wing of NeoLiberaism shows them for the charlatans that they are.

  54. Kerry has more carrots on his hat than corks on crocodile dundees.
    One of the carrots is the one Craig is dangling to keep the Russians pushing in the scrum of Syria in an effort to wreck Syria completely`- the carrot of Eastern Uzbekistan and the Crimea for Russia.

    Then there’s the carrots of autonomy for Chechnyans, Eastern Turkey for Kurdistan, and a Sunni block of Syria for Al Qaida. And The rest of Syria on its knees for Israel with a UN resolution to appoint Israel as curator of that land ad in finitum.

    Craig is using his good reputation for many good deeds to prepare us for the coming carve-up of land, which will be followed by 40 years of carve-ups throughout the former Soviet stans. For obvious reasons Craig would like for instance Uzbekistan to come into a peaceful, brokered, regime change.

    A picture of Obama comes to mind, under the banner of AFRICOM with skulls dangling round his hat, and John McCain greeting Jesus pbuh in Damascus on a red carpet made from the blood of Syrians.

    Craig should know better than to be gung-ho about any of these things. I think his mind has been turned by his Muslim Qaida ‘friends’.

  55. By sending troops into the Ukraine, (others than those stationed there by agreement) Putin has broken international law.

    That parenthesis is pretty damned important. How do we know that Russia hasn’t acted only in keeping with bilateral arrangements with Ukraine regarding the Crimea?

    Maybe someone can post a link to those treaty arrangements?

    How much prior notice is Russia obliged to give, in relation to what kinds of military movements? and do the Banderists count as a legally constituted government?

    For all the bluster by politicians and barrack-room lawyering in the media, I would like to know what the agreement between Russia and the Ukraine regarding the Crimea actually says.

    It would also be useful to cite the Ukrainian constitution, especially to determine Yanukovych’s status if he asks for Russian assistance.

    That does not depend on the Budapest Memorandum. It would be a breach of international law whether the Budapest Memorandum existed or not. The effect of the Budapest Memorandum is rather to oblige the US and the UK to do something about it.

    One thing is for certain – the only actions that the Budapest Memorandum, on any interpretation, could possibly oblige the US, the UK or indeed Russia to take is to bring the matter of concern before the UN Security Council (para. 4) – and to consult with the other two powers (para. 6).

    The US, UK and Russia are not ‘guarantor powers’. If they were, there would be a Treaty of Guarantee, as there was with Cyprus: like this.

    I will paste the Budapest Memorandum below.

    I think there would have to be some ridiculous parsing of para. 4 to make it apply to any action or threat which does not involve nuclear weapons.

    (I will try to find a copy of the memorandum in Russian, where my interpretation should be provable or indeed disprovable using case endings. If anyone has got a link, please can they post it.)

    Basically the US, the UK and Russia must take the issue to the UNSC if someone attacks the Ukraine with nuclear weapons or threatens to do so.

    But while I’m here, does anyone think the US – along with Germany’s other ally, the UK :-) – haven’t breached Para 3?

    Here is the Memorandum. People can make up their own minds as to whether it’s being described honestly in the British media.

    ===========================================
    Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

    The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and
    the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

    Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on
    the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a
    non-nuclear-weapon State,

    Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to
    eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a
    specified period of time,

    Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation,
    including the end of the Cold War, which have brought
    about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

    Confirm the following:

    1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in
    accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act,
    to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the
    existing borders of Ukraine.

    2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the
    threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
    political independence of Ukraine, and that none of
    their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except
    in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the
    Charter of the United Nations.

    3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in
    accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act,
    to refrain from economic coercion designed to
    subordinate to their own interest the exercise by
    Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and
    thus to secure advantages of any kind.

    4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate
    United Nations Security Council action to provide
    assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State
    Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear
    Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act
    of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in
    which nuclear weapons are used.

    5. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their
    commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any
    non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the
    Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the
    case of an attack on themselves, their territories or
    dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies,
    by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear
    weapon state.

    6. The United States of America, the Russian Federation,
    and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which
    raises a question concerning these commitments.

    This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.
    ===========================================

  56. Worms turn.

    2 March 2014 Last updated at 17:18

    New head of Ukraine’s navy ‘defects’ in Crimea
    The newly appointed head of Ukraine’s navy has sworn allegiance to the Crimea region, in the presence of its unrecognised pro-Russian leader.

    Rear Admiral Denis Berezovsky was only made head of the navy on Saturday, as the government in Kiev reacted to the threat of Russian invasion.

    Russia’s troops have been consolidating their hold on Crimea, which is home to its Black Sea Fleet.

    The US has warned Moscow may be ejected from the G8 for its actions.

    ~~~
    BBC website. Wonder if he is related to the late Boris Berezovsky?

  57. Hopefully William Hague will exert a good influence in Ukraine when he goes there, along the lines of what you have written here.

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:36 pm

    The following, from WIKISPOOKS, (16h20) appears to be a response to my request (to Herbie) to supply verbatim evidence for the suggestion that “Didn’t Nuland’s conversation with her ambassador indicate that she was pulling strings in terms of which fascist got what job?”:

    “Nuland: 3 x videos with the verbatim text; including her confirmation that the US has spent $5 billion to secure its objectives (of freedom and democracy naturally) in the Ukraine. And the last one – nervous young US Dept of State spokes-lady, Jan Paski, earnestly assuring us that black is white.”
    ______________________________

    Closer examination of this “evidence” makes it clear that this is another example of the tactic consisting in providing links which, when actually read, do not correspond, or then only partially correspond, to the claims made of them. Presumably the provider of the link(s) hopes that readers will not be bothered to read or listen to them carefully. But I have done so. Thus:

    1/. On the theme “Nuland is pulling strings in terms of which fascist got which job”.

    Wrong, and not evidenced by the verbatim, in which AS Nuland suggests that the Ambasssador make various phone calls (a normal function for a diplomat, one would think) and expresses the opinion to the Ambassador that Yats would probably be the best person to head the new govt (given his economic credentials) and that it would be better if Klishko and one other person were NOT in the govt. AND THAT IS ALL! No other names and govt posts mentioned, no evidence of pulling strings.

    2/. “including her confirmation that the US has spend $5 billion to secure its objectives”.

    This seeks to give the impression that the US has spent €5 billion since the crisis erupted ( or shortly before)in order to secure “US objectives”. But here is the transcript of what AS Nuland actually said on this in her conference (yes, I’ve taken the trouble to listen to it):

    “SINCE UKRAINIAN INDEPENDENCE IN 1991 the US has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist the Ukraine govt in these and other goals..”

    So, $5 billion since 1991, ie, over 12 years and not just latterly. (NB for context – US govt spending for fiscal 2013 alone was $3454 billion). And the objectives are objectives for Ukraine.

    ****************

    The conclusion must be that readers would be well-advised to overcome natural laziness and to read or listen to links VERY carefully, because those who provide the links do not always do so in good faith and with complete honesty.

  59. According to live ticker der Spiegel
    16:57 (Norwich is routed before half time by Villa), my emphasis and free translated the Canadian Foreign minister John Baird, just back from Kyiv, said ‘that he would not discount that he would ask the Russian Ambassador to leave’. John Baird clearly declared his refusal of a military intervention in the Ukraine by the West. This despite Canada’s withdrawl of its ambassador from Moscow last Saturday.

    17:11 Newly appointed head of the Ukrainian Navy declares his allegiance to Kiev.

    17:37 British Prime minister Cameron declares ‘that there would be no British ministers joining the paraolympics in Sochi due to the situation in the Ukraine’

    sorry to post again..
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/liveticker-zur-krim-krise-am-2-maerz-2014-a-956418.html

  60. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_democracy

    The current status quo run by virtue less corporations and functionaries.

  61. The conclusion must be that readers would be well-advised to overcome natural laziness and to read or listen to links VERY carefully, because those who provide the links do not always do so in good faith and with complete honesty.

    [Personal arguments will be deleted]

  62. Non-interference principle

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:43 pm

  63. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:44 pm

    Mary

    “BBC website. Wonder if he is related to the late Boris Berezovsky?”
    ______________________-

    Admiral Denis Berezovsky is not related to the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky.

    You probably know, Mary (being a musical sort of person, as you’ve told us) that there is a -happily living – Russian pianist of genius named Boris Berezovsky.

    If you ask me nicely, I’ll be happy to tell you whether or not he’s related to the late Boris Berezovsky.

    *******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  64. I have now read the Russian version, and can report that the ambiguity of the ending of para.4 is the same as in the English version.

    Neither version makes it clear whether the modifier “in which nuclear weapons are used” (“с применением ядерного оружия” – “with the use of nuclear weapons”) applies both to the act of aggression and the threat of aggression or just to the latter.

  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:53 pm

    N_

    “But while I’m here, does anyone think the US – along with Germany’s other ally, the UK :-) – haven’t breached Para 3?”
    ___________________

    Para 3 refers to “refraining from economic coercion” (on Ukraine). Aren’t you getting the US and UK mixed up with rasPutin’s Russia?

    *******************

    “Life is getting better, life is getting merrier!” (J. Stalin, ca. 1932)

  66. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 5:59 pm

    N_

    “I have now read the Russian version, and can report that the ambiguity of the ending of para.4 is the same as in the English version.

    Neither version makes it clear whether the modifier “in which nuclear weapons are used” (“с применением ядерного оружия” – “with the use of nuclear weapons”) applies both to the act of aggression and the threat of aggression or just to the latter.”
    _____________________

    The modifier obviously applies to the act of aggression; but since it has been placed at the end of the clause and not directly after act of aggression (it could have been so placed), it obviously applies to both act of aggression AND threat of aggression.

  67. Non-interference praxis

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:01 pm

    Damn. The Slovenia playbook. Pretty slick.

    http://rt.com/news/ukraine-military-russia-resign-437/

  68. Habby

    You may think that it’s not unusual for a US Assistant Secretary of State and an ambassador to decide who gets the top jobs in Ukraine, but others are entitled to see it as interference in the internal affairs of another country.

    Nor was there anything legitimate about the ouster of the president.

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/02/26/euromaidan-coup/

  69. Afraid the most proved by this thread, Craig, is your showing what a hypocrite you apparently were when you denounced Russophobia – now displaying the worst version of it where Putin in responsible for everything occurring in the Ukraine where its coup started nothing, and the Anglo-Americans did nothing to stoke it up.

  70. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:23 pm

    Herbie

    “Habby

    You may think that it’s not unusual for a US Assistant Secretary of State and an ambassador to decide who gets the top jobs in Ukraine,..”
    __________________

    You’re still being dishonest, Herbie, because you’re misrepresenting the purpose of my post. That purpose was to demonstrate that the verbatim of the Nuland telephone conversation with the US Ambassador – cited as “evidence” – in fact contained NO evidence to support claims of US string-pulling regarding the composition of the Ukraine govt.

    BTW – have you checked out the figures for the Rada vote yet, as suggested?

  71. Non-interference

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:28 pm

    N_, considering how the UN Charter makes use or threat of force a single thing, the implication ought to be that ‘nuclear’ modifies both.

    But what that means is that Ukraine will be protected from nuclear attacks or threats. Putin’s not threatening to nuke them.

    The takeaway message of Craig’s post for me is that the NATO bloc should suck it up and resort to pacific resolut

  72. Non-interference

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:29 pm

    oops ion of disputes. They hate that shit, but there’s nothing else they can do.

  73. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:35 pm

    N_

    zzzzzzzzzzz

    with repect, obviously!

  74. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:37 pm

    with reSpect, obviously!

    I underestimated your soporific effect.

  75. Is south Ossetia now safe from NATO interference via Georgia? or was that just a summer cake walk? nothing to do with us, oh no Gov. nowt to do with the west.

    So if Georgia is not strong enough to help itself to south Ossetia than NATO will help, will it?

    Tartarstan Tuerks related to the Crimean are demonstarting in Ankara.

    here is the latest freely translated, comments in brackets are mione
    18:36 The white house tells us that ‘president Obama will work on the Ukraine crisis all sunday and shall correspond with allies by phone

    18:37 A few hundred of proptesters in Berlin were marching with Ukrainian flags and protesting against Putins military actions visavis Ukraines problems. (were did they get all those flags from on a sunday) Plakats showed and reminded the public of Russias record of military interventions, they said “DDR 1953, Ungarn 1956, Tschechoslowakei 1968, Afghanistan 1979, Georgien 2008, Ukraine 2014?”

  76. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 6:45 pm

    Trowbridge H Ford

    And you don’t think that Putin’s support for the corrupt Yanukovych and his constant meddling in Ukrainian affairs for many many years might not also have stoked up things just the teeniest little bit?

    And I suppose you don’t regard Putin’s interference in other neighbouring states of Russia (or members of the Soviet Union as I’m sure you and Putin would prefer to call them) has gone at all beyond what is acceptable.

  77. Some of the babbling on whether or whether not a possible nuclear strike would/could/should occure are daft and purile. Why would Putin set off a nuclear attack next to his purse, a vast gas pipeline infrastructure that makes him millions/hour?

    I see some have surcommed to the socket winding up his nuts again,just forget about the f…..r! ignore!

  78. Habby

    Thankfully we don’t have to rely on dishonest interpretations from you.

    Even the BBC, whom one would expect to take as pro-western a position as possible, have been forced to conclude:

    “this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals.”

    “An intriguing insight into the foreign policy process with work going on at a number of levels: Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition; efforts to get the UN to play an active role in bolstering a deal; and (as you can see below) the big guns waiting in the wings – US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment.”

    “The US is clearly much more involved in trying to broker a deal in Ukraine than it publicly lets on.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957

    And still, your claim that the parliamentary ouster of the president had legitimacy remains unsubstantiated.

  79. NATO’s ueberguru Rasmussen is briefing the press right now on the Ukraine.
    http://t.co/xfwFiCQyPM

  80. Can we trust a paywall wallstreetjournal with the headline

    The US has tracked thousands of Russian troops moving into the Ukraine?

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304815004579415211128721266

  81. Thanks Nevermind:

    “British Prime minister Cameron declares ‘that there would be no British ministers joining the paraolympics in Sochi due to the situation in the Ukraine’”

    Fuking playground politics from agent Cameron.

    A disabled neighbor with a child had her benefit capped on the false suspicion of taking a lodger in. She asked me today where the nearest food-bank was so that her child could have something to eat.

  82. conjunction

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:07 pm

    Characteristically thoughtful piece Craig, thankyou. Interested in your point that the West is not in a position to provide meaningful financial aid. The Economist this week, in an article written before Putin’s invasion of the Crimea, thought otherwise, lining up Merkel and the IMF as Santa’s elves. It also described the Rada, Ukraine’s parliament, as a nest of crooks and noted the absence of likely claimants to the throne. The Economist also thought financial aid should be laced with assistance in holding proper elections etc. These views seem in some ways well-intentioned but characteristically naive, and it is hard to see western financial aid materialising now with Putin playing hardball.

  83. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:09 pm

    Herbie

    Presidents that have their hand in the till with their cronies big time, lock up opposition leaders on trumped up charges, seek to rig parliament and then use snipers to shoot demonstrators tend to lose their democratic mandate pretty quickly. Given said President then flees the country – I would have said a Parliament which immediately sets the date for new Presidential elections has rather more legitimacy – and certainly more than the Leader of another country who currently has one of his political opponents under house arrest.

    I’m afraid your hypocrisy when it comes to foreign interference in the affairs of other countries has been totally exposed by your craven support for the works of Mr Putin.

  84. Herbie, Yanukovych was voted out by 328 to 0 of 450 Ukrainian MPs; technically, 338 should have been required.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Impeachment_and_vote_to_remove

    On 22 February 2014[13] members of the Ukrainian parliament (MPs) voted 328-0 to “remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine” and hold early presidential elections on 25 May. […] The constitutional guidelines provide for a review of the case by Ukraine’s Constitutional Court and a three-fourths majority vote by parliament (338 deputies)

    There is some question about the legality, but it looks pretty minor to me:

    According to a written report by Radio Free Europe, the impeachment did not follow the procedure[168] provided by the constitution enacted during Yanukovych’s administration. There was doubt whether the ousting of him was legal because Yanukovich had not signed the bills that would restore the constitution to the way it was between 2004 and 2010.

    The following link is a Google translation of the Radio Free Europe report above (reference [168]):

    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Flenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2014%2F02%2F23%2Fus%2F

    I think Yanukovych was ousted legitimately, in the spirit though not quite the letter of Ukrainian law.

  85. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:19 pm

    “Fuking playground politics from agent Cameron.”

    And how else would you suggest that he shows his disapproval?

    And just how generous do you think your hero Putin has been with social, pensions and health spending in Russia funded by his egalitarian 13% flat rate of income tax. When will the sclaes fall from your eyes when it comes to your hero?

  86. Allende was elected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état

    “The United States government, which had worked to create the conditions for the coup,[9] promptly recognized the junta government and supported it in consolidating power.[10] A weak insurgent movement against the Pinochet government was maintained inside Chile by elements sympathetic to the former Allende government. An internationally supported plebiscite in 1988 eventually removed Pinochet from power.”

    International law, notwithstanding.

  87. Clark

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/02/26/euromaidan-coup/

  88. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:27 pm

    Ben

    You should be aware that Putin and the crowd around him have been long time admirers of the politics and economics of the Pinochet regime

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/sitemap/paid/1998/1/article/aven-putin-should-follow-pinochet/264757.html

    The low flat rate income tax and near complete absence of controls over capital going overseas were of course two if the favourites of Pinochet’s Chicago boys.

  89. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:28 pm

    Herbie

    To quote your own words to me:

    “I won’t waste further time with you.” (followed soon after by two further posts from you to me, but nevermind, eh!)

    But before not wasting any further time on you, I’d like to congratulate you on enlisting the usually much-reviled BBC to your cause:

    “Even the BBC, whom one would expect to take as pro-western a position as possible, have been forced to conclude:…”.

    Unfortunately, you’ve managed to get that wrong as well. Your BBC link in fact concludes:

    “The US is clearly much more involved in trying to broker a deal in Ukraine than it publicly lets on.”

    Broker a deal.

    Whereas the discussion on here was about the verbatim of the Nuland phone conversation displaying no evidence at all for US string-pulling in the formation of the new Ukraine govt.

    Wakey wakey!

  90. Herbie, 7:22 pm; I haven’t seen a video, but in the photograph on the translated article I linked, Ukrainian MP’s look pleased and don’t appear to be coerced. But if you can find contrary evidence, do post it. I’m convinced he was an unpopular criminal. Have you seen the ‘palace’ he had built? I think he had $18 billion.

    Please just do the research and don’t drag arguments out. I’m reading Boiling Frogs, but it’s quite a long article.

  91. Res Diss

    You’re waffling.

    All the Ukrainian leaders are corrupt, including the one whom you claim was locked up on trumped up charges.

    When I say corrupt, I mean that they’re not quite so discreet as their western counterparts.

    And please, spare me the propaganda.

    This is quite simply another effort by the west at installing its own puppets, something which it seems you support.

  92. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:39 pm

    Even Yanukovych own Party recognised that he had lost legitimacy

    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_02_23/Party-of-Regions-faction-blames-Yanukovych-for-fatalities-in-Ukraine-events-5981/

    And this was reported on one of the Putinophiles approved channels of communication!

  93. Herbie, despite what I’ve written about Yanukovych, I don’t support the violence of the right-wingers, and I still want to know where the apparently paramilitary force came from, their funding, and who was giving them orders. They’re very conspicous on the videos.

    Herbie, I don’t have a very political mind. I find the numbers of people involved and their multiple conflicting objectives confusing. But the sort of thing you’re doing, picking fights with Habbabkuk based upon your assumptions about his intentions, makes it much more difficult for me.

    Please just research and post convincing evidence.

  94. Clark

    I’m not sure what you’re on about, Clark.

    They’re all corrupt. They work for oligarchs, you see.

    You seem to think this one was especially corrupt and that leads you to think even his own supporters would willingly vote against him.

    Try and understand what it was like to be in Kiev with armed fascists roaming about through the parliament. Remember there’s no police. The fascists are now the muscler. His supporters would not willingly vote him out, other than in fear of their lives.

    The boiling frogs article explains all that.

  95. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:42 pm

    This is quite simply another effort by the west at installing its own puppets, something which it seems you support.

    As opposed to being puppets of Putin which seems to cause you no problems whatsoever.

  96. Habbabkuk, and while I’m at it, could you PLEASE stop winding people up? It just makes them worse. Have a bit of sympathy for the not-naturally-political like me, and help to keep things simple. The situation we’re looking at is complex enough already.

  97. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:45 pm

    “The boiling frogs article explains all that.”

    and the Voice of Russia report suggests the opposite – I’m sorry they didn’t quite change the propaganda line in time.

  98. OrwellianUK

    2 Mar, 2014 - 7:47 pm

  99. Clark

    I’m not making assumptions. I’m simply asking questions about habby’s stated position.

    Res Diss

    Were Russia involving itself in the internal affairs of a country within the US or Western orbit of influence, you’d have a point, but he isn’t and you don’t.

    =========================================================================

    How many times do people have to see the same trick pulled before they wake up. It might be slightly better were anyone to benefit from these outrages but only a select few will do so.

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