Conspiracy Theorists, Why is Westminster Lifting All COVID Restrictions?


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  • #75895 Reply
    ET

    N.Z. is now in Lock-Down, after one case and for 3-7 days. If there are no further cases they won’t be in lockdown after that and they will have no covid. None, Zero, eliminated as it ought to have been everywhere in the same manner. Then there would have been no need of vaccines or lockdowns (nor economic shutdown, nor all the taxpayers debt that will require to be repaid). Vaccination represents a failure to eliminate it in the first placce, a failure of policy. Vaccination may well be the only (realistic) answer now but it need not have been so in the first place AND that plan ain’t working out so well now in many places.

    #75931 Reply
    Clark

    ET – “Vaccination represents a failure to eliminate it in the first place, a failure of policy.”

    And an utter failure of leadership.

    I’ve never before really seen a situation that called for large scale leadership, but this was it. The public needed to be told: that elimination was desirable and possible; that elimination was to be our objective; how we were going to do it; and then daily national and especially regional update reports, rather like what is now at last happening with vaccination. The public needed to understand the strategy in order to implement it. Instead, we got silence, then procrastination and spin, and finally a massive and utterly confusing U-turn in which a load of rules were very suddenly imposed upon us.

    Widespread cooperation cannot be imposed from the top downwards. It has to be evoked from the bottom upwards, because a pyramid is always widest at its base. To do things well, people need to know why they need to be done.

    #75936 Reply
    michael norton

    Yesterday, France again took the top spot in Europe.

    “The multicultural, working-class region of Seine-Saint-Denis, north of Paris, initially struggled in getting the word out about vaccines to a population where many are immigrants who don’t speak French or lack access to regular medical care.

    But offering vaccinations at a highly visible location with easy access seems to be doing the trick.”

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210817-pop-up-centers-in-working-class-paris-suburbs-help-boost-covid-vaccination-rate

    I had tried to suggest that one of the reasons why France had a slow vaccine take up was because they had the highest immigrant population in Europe.
    I was told that that view was nuts.

    #75937 Reply
    michael norton

    quote

    “To do things well, people need to know why they need to be done.”

    could not agree more, Clark.
    I am in an environmental group where we undertake physical projects.
    If the project is just detailed from the council to the leader for the day, there will be a certain level of enthusiasm but if the whole group, who turn up on the day are encouraged to think about why we are doing what we are doing, they quickly own the project.
    The spark is quick and will burn brightest, if participants know all about it and then to think things through, before and as we go.
    Government, should not just be done to us.

    #75944 Reply
    ET

    “I had tried to suggest that one of the reasons why France had a slow vaccine take up was because they had the highest immigrant population in Europe.
    I was told that that view was nuts.”

    No you were not, it was pointed out to you that the premise for your assertion was wrong, namely, that France has the highest immigrant population. It doesn’t, in fact it has the fourth largest population of immigrants with Spain almost equal footing.

    “In absolute terms, the largest numbers of non-nationals living in the EU Member States on 1 January 2018 were found in Germany (9.7 million persons), the United Kingdom (6.3 million), Italy (5.1 million), France (4.7 million) and Spain (4.6 million).”

    The wiki article on European immigration gives more nuance with the UK and Germany having higher Immigrants as percentage of national population as does this data from OECD.org. So your reaoning that because France has the highest immigrant population they have low vaccine uptake does not work. If you look at the percentage of total population immigrants comprise of a country you will see France is about middle ground with UK and Ireland higher, where vaccine uptake has been highest.
    This is leg work you should have done before you post Michael. Instead you leave it to others to do it for you. If you are going to state x is because of y at least make the effort to ensure that your assertion that ‘fact y is correct’ is indeed correct before you post.

    #75950 Reply
    michael norton

    ET thank you for your help.
    If you read the article from France 24, you will soon grasp the sense of it. The sense of that article is that in one of the poorest parts of France, about a quarter of the people who currently reside there are immigrants, some legal others not who speak 130 different languages. They struggle to access normal health care or are put off as they are illegal.
    BUT the good news is by having pop-up vaccination places local to where they reside or work, with no compulsion to be on the government lists, people will come forward and bring their friends, for vaccination.

    #75955 Reply
    michael norton

    Switzerland is going mental. The Swiss weekly trend is plus 82%.
    The U.K. is not doing too well, weekly trend is plus 6%.

    We do seem to be racking up a lot of covid deaths, lately, in Europe. I expect mostly Delta?

    #76002 Reply
    michael norton

    In France, People have to show proof they have either been vaccinated, tested negative for Covid or have recovered from the disease in order to enter a museum, cinema, sports venue, travel on a long distance train, access a hospital, enter a café or any indoor place selling alcohol or food.

    Black Market Covid Health Passes are becoming common.
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210818-black-market-for-fake-covid-health-passes-flourishes-in-france

    #76010 Reply
    michael norton

    It does seem that Health (covid) passports are starting to sweep the World. I would not be at all nonplussed if Javid makes them compulsory in England. If he does, Sturgeon would follow but on previous form she would pip him to the post, just to show how controlling she is.

    #76057 Reply
    michael norton

    It seems I was wrong, Germany is curving up. Last few days, all above 8,000 new cases. A month ago, they were just in the hundreds, each day.

    #76125 Reply
    michael norton

    France has now pushed through the one in ten barrier.
    So more than one in ten people in France have been tested to prove they have or have had covid. Obviously many more will have had mild or asymptomatic covid that has not been registered.
    France only test a fraction of their people, compared to the United Kingdom.

    #76238 Reply
    ET

    A piece in the Guardian today from someone based in New Zealand.

    “it was indeed crazy of New Zealand to go into lockdown with just one case – no wait, 22 – hang on, 107 … You get the point. The fact that coronavirus case numbers can mount rapidly should be obvious by now, but apparently not.

    Our per-person death rate is 400 times less than the British one. And if any British people think that’s down to New Zealand’s being an island, they might want to take a look at the shape of their own country on a map.”

    That’s a flavour. Much of what is discussed has been mentioned in this and other threads.

    #76253 Reply
    michael norton

    BBC News: Covid in Scotland: Warning over restrictions as cases hit new high (24 Aug 2021)

    “Nicola Sturgeon has said she cannot rule out the reintroduction of some Covid restrictions as the number of daily cases reached a record high.

    The first minister said the country was at another “fragile and pivotal moment” in the pandemic.

    New cases in Scotland have more than doubled over the past week, and that is one of the sharpest rises we have experienced at any point during the pandemic,” she said.

    She said the latest daily figure was the largest recorded in a single day “

    I think the numbers are going up in most countries of Europe and U.S.A. and Canada and New Zealand and Australia and Japan.
    This is not over yet.

    #76302 Reply
    Givebirthathome

    Useful critical analysis of covid talking points and statistics here:
    — URL snipped —
     
    [ Mod: We have a guideline here that people must contribute something to the discussion instead of posting bare links. From the moderation rules for commenters:

    Contribute
    Contributions which are primarily just a link to somewhere else will be deleted. You can post links, but give us the benefit of your thoughts upon them.

    If you want to engage in the discussion here, please summarise the points independently and provide the URL as a reference.

    It’s also important to explain what you’re linking to. The URL you posted links to a newsletter on substack that was set up by someone who, by their own admission, was repeatedly banned from social media for posting content that was deemed to be medical misinformation. (By contrast, substack is unregulated so misinformation can be hosted freely there.)

    Furthermore, the substack newsletter asks for subscriptions; accordingly the bare URL could be considered advertising spam. ]

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    #76428 Reply
    michael norton

    covid does not seem to be alleviating.
    Just in Europe, more deaths and more people in Intensive Care, the majority would seem to be those who refuse vaccination.

    #76448 Reply
    ET

    “covid does not seem to be alleviating.”

    It’s not all bad news MN, there are some good news points. Compared to similar levels of cases previously there are considerably fewer hospitalisations, ventilated patients and deaths in UK. This is a positive point. Vaccines are reducing the impact of case load.

    The latest COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report from UK Gov gives a lot of the detail. It’s worth reading it through. One concern I noted is a quote from it in the first “population impact” section.

    “Based on antibody testing of blood donors, 97.7% of the adult population now have antibodies to COVID-19 from either infection or vaccination compared to 18.7% that have antibodies from infection alone. Over 95% of adults aged 17 or older have antibodies from either infection or vaccination. The latest estimates indicate that the vaccination programme has directly averted over 82,100 hospitalisations.”

    Over 95% of people aged 17 and over have antibodies but yet the case numbers are still increasing.

    #76453 Reply
    michael norton

    A total of 6,835 new cases were reported on Friday – more than 1,800 above the previous highest figure. This is the third time this week a new record has been set.

    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the sharp rise was a “cause for concern”
    BBC News

    What I think might be happening in the United Kingdom, is massive testing, catching people who are not ill but have a smidgen of covid virus.
    In France hardly anybody is tested unless they are quite ill, yet they have less cases but many more in intensive care.

    #76560 Reply
    michael norton

    Scotland’s Health Secretary Humza Yousaf warned the NHS was facing a “perfect storm” of covid pressure.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58370841
    Mr. Yousaf told BBC Scotland the NHS was under “severe, severe pressure”, particularly with A&E services and ambulance turnaround.

    Young people who are not yet jabbed or only single jabbed, older people who are refuseniks.

    #76571 Reply
    ET

    Perhaps the vaccine strategy is not enough on its own. The current vaccines are effective but yet 40% of hospitalisations are vaccinated individuals. Younger people are not at fault, they were not given vaccines initially through no fault of their own. Another variant with a slightly higher resistance to the vaccines could throw a huge spanner in the works.

    I read two articles in the Irish Times. The first We can live with the virus? This is dangerous wishful thinking has pertinent quotes:

    “We have lived through multiple occasions where we hoped for the best but didn’t adequately prepare for the worst, and this has not served us well.”

    “Having already seen the virus evolve to be more transmissible, and partly vaccine resistant, multiple times in the space of a year, it would be foolhardy to bet on that not happening again.”

    On the same front page is an article on how difficult it is for the Irish tourism industry.
    Tourism recovery: ‘We’ve a mountain to climb to reconnect Ireland’

    ““Unfortunately, it came too late by comparison to other European countries, who were ahead of us with very positive announcements at early stages,” says Ruth Andrews, chief executive of the Irish Tour Operators’ Association (ITOA), which represents the country’s 34 largest inbound tour operators, bringing in 11 per cent of overseas visitors to Ireland. Tour operators are “still operating on losses equivalent to 95 per cent” of 2019’s business.”

    I am sure Ruth is lovely and all that but STFU whining. We can live without our tourism for a bit. We should, and everywhere else should, be banning trips that are purely for tourism reasons. Stay away unless it’s absolutely necessary and even then quarantine first. Continue vaccinations and continue all the other containment measures at the same time and lets get it done.

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    #76626 Reply
    michael norton

    Australia

    “We cannot live in this cave forever”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-58381168

    Australia to come out of Lock-Down, when 70% of adults are jabbed.

    #76767 Reply
    michael norton

    U.K. is going up and up. Over forty thousand new cases on Friday. Although we claim three or four times more cases than is claimed by France, France has more than twice the number of people in intensive care?

    #76862 Reply
    michael norton

    A young woman, who works for my council, told me today, that all council staff have to do lateral flow tests, each week.
    Some time after she was double jabbed, the lateral flow test showed she was positive. She said the resulting disease was similar to a not bad cold.
    Now, today, we again show more than forty thousand positive cases but the critical cases are barely rising. In the U.K. we test far more than any other European main country, far more than double, that are tested in France. We have many more positive cases, per day, than any other European country.

    So, either we in the U.K. are testing too many people or the Europeans are not testing enough?

    #76939 Reply
    Clark

    Michael norton, August 31, 08:44:

    “Australia to come out of Lock-Down…”

    Australia wasn’t in lockdown. From the BBC link, Australia’s Prime Minister was:

    “…referring to the multiple city lockdowns and closed state borders. […] Western Australia and Queensland […] along with South Australia, Tasmania and the Northern Territory – have Covid rates at zero or near to zero, after sealing off their borders.”

    It’s a mistake to judge Australia by the UK policy of national lockdowns; after their initial lockdown, Australia moved to instant but short and regional lockdowns, which is working very effectively, except (1) New South Wales made restrictions voluntary and (2), about the same time, the Delta variant got in. You can very clearly see what’s happening here:

    Endcoronavirus.org – green-zone-rankings – Australia

    Nearly 90% of the cases are in New South Wales, but it’s also bleeding into adjacent territories.

    #76940 Reply
    Clark

    Michael norton, Sept. 4 and 6:

    I don’t know the reasoning behind various governments’ testing policies. I guess that different governments issued different budgets, and the current levels of testing are the results.

    Yes, the UK is finding more cases than France because it is testing more; the deaths and numbers of people in hospital are better indicators of overall prevalence than is testing because testing misses the majority of cases.

    Testing is useful to the epidemiologists for developing their understanding of the spread, and for predicting regional hospital demand.

    #77112 Reply
    michael norton

    Looks like Australian covid positive numbers are going through the roof.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-10/outbreak:-how-australia-lost-control/13537068

    Hiding in caves only slowed it down, until along came DELTA.

    #77164 Reply
    michael norton

    French Prosecutors looking into government failings are investigating Agnès Buzyn for “endangering the lives of others”.

    Ms. Buzyn left the post in February 2020 to run for Paris mayor, saying Covid was low risk. But she later spoke of knowing a “tsunami” was approaching.

    It is one of the world’s first cases of a minister facing legal accountability for their pandemic response.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58523027
    well if it can happen in France it could happen in the U.S.A. or in the U.K.

    #77199 Reply
    Clark

    Michael, Australia wasn’t “hiding in caves”. I keep pointing out the evidence, and you keep ignoring it to drop anti-lockdown slogans. Yet elsewhere you’re criticising Scotland for its health service becoming overloaded.

    Covid is not trivial. It frequently causes very serious illness. It would be inhumane not to treat that illness because it causes slow, days-long suffocation, probably the most distressing life-threatening condition I can think of, so distressing that the US chose water-boarding as their primary means of controllable torture that didn’t leave incriminating physical injury.

    You can’t have it both ways. Scotland’s health system is overwhelmed because covid was not adequately restricted.

    #77203 Reply
    michael norton

    Clark, I do not think I have claimed covid is trivial, that is why I am double-jabbed.
    I am over 70. Almost everyone I know, are now double-jabbed, and getting on with our lives in groups, mostly outdoors.

    “Hiding in caves” is what many Australians claim their government want them to do, to avoid Delta.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-nz-cant-do-that-australian-pm-scott-morrison-likens-elimination-to-living-in-cave/WFYTXGTLMP6QY33OJ5V3NSF2BI/

    Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison says it is “absurd” for regions – including New Zealand – to chase elimination forever in a Delta world.

    He was commenting on some Australia states and territories that have said they will continue to pursue elimination and keep their borders closed to NSW.

    “Any state and territory that thinks that somehow they can protect themselves from Covid with the Delta strain forever, that’s just absurd,” Morrison told the 9 News Breakfast show today.

    “New Zealand can’t do that. They were following an elimination strategy. They’re in lockdown.”

    #77204 Reply
    michael norton

    Morrison likened staying on the elimination path to living in a cave.

    “Covid is a new different world. We need to get out there and live in it. We can’t stay in the cave, and we can get out of it safely,” he said.

    “If not at 70 or 80 per cent [vaccination coverage], then when?”

    Now in the U.K. many over 16 have had a single jab. Over 18 most double-jabbed.
    Life is for living, not hiding.

    #77206 Reply
    michael norton

    Clark I have a close relative who is now seeing more covid people than ever before, most of those have not been vaccinated and most caught it on holiday in the West Country. People from all over the U.K. and Ireland have been holidaying in the West Country. Shoulder to shoulder, with those they do not know.

    #77207 Reply
    ET

    “Although we claim three or four times more cases than is claimed by France, France has more than twice the number of people in intensive care?”

    Overall, France has had fewer deaths than the UK both on a per capita basis and cumulative overall total (not by a lot as might be expected as their populations are similar in number). Looking at the ICU admissions in France they have been consistently almost double the UK mechanically ventilated figures over the entire pandemic timeframe. That doesn’t really add up. I suspect that the figures from France include all patients admitted to ICU whether they are ventilated or not whereas the figures from UK gov are for mechanically ventilated patients only. There are many admitted to ICU for oxygen support and close monitoring who are not ventilated. I don’t know this for sure as it’s difficult to find out the inclusion criteria in the figures used.

    The total cases per million population for UK and France are almost identical with France slightly higher. Also, I’d like to be sure how the number of tests performed are counted. If 4 tests are performed on one person in the same episode that to me is one test not 4. Again, it’s difficult to find and if anyone can shed light on that please do so.

    #77208 Reply
    ET

    Michael, Australia wasn’t “hiding in caves”.

    Neither was New Zealand who have almost eliminated the delta wave though there is a little way to go yet. Here is an article from NYT from 2 weeks ago. Reading both articles it’s clear what the MSM think of NZ’s elimination strategy.
    For comparison Ireland has had 5155 deaths to NZ’s 27 both with approx equivalent populations. I know where I’d rather be.

    #77249 Reply
    Clark

    A scientific research group wanted to know how Delta might mutate if circulated in a partially vaccinated population, in which older members were vaccinated and younger members were not, so they tried it in humanised mice.

    Delta mutated, becoming lethal to young mice.

    “Oh it only kills the old and the sick”. Yeah, right.

    #77279 Reply
    Clark

    I’m finding the resentment, the sour grapes, directed at countries that are successfully suppressing SARS-CoV-2, extremely distasteful. It’s bad enough living on Plague Island; I really don’t want it to become Plague Planet. Exaggeration of their recent Delta lockdowns is also very ugly. It’s also misleading; residents of China, Australia and New Zealand have all spent a lot less time than most under restrictions.

    It’s like the most horrible side of primary school kids; “Nah nah ni nah nah”. It’s as if I lost a leg in a traffic incident, and then forever after cheered whenever someone else might lose a limb.

    #77314 Reply
    michael norton

    Can anyone have a guess why the U.K. government have just ditched the contract for the French covid-jab being brewed in Scotland?
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210913-uk-cancels-covid-jab-contract-with-franco-austrian-firm-valneva

    #77318 Reply
    Pigeon English

    M N

    it looks like every one was gambling on many horses and this horse is far behind and there is option to take your bet off or paying penalties which are smaller then honouring contract.

    #77327 Reply
    Clark

    Michael norton – “Can anyone have a guess…”

    Judging from previous form, Boris or some senior minister has found someone new they’d like to shag and will re-offer the contract such that money falls into their prospect’s pocket. Conversely, maybe the original contract secured Boris or some minister a regular shag, but whoever it was is sick of laying back and thinking of England.

    #77360 Reply
    michael norton

    My guess why the U.K. government has cancelled the Valneva jab, is because it is only quasi-effective.

    #77371 Reply
    michael norton

    You can’t hide from Delta
    https://www.rt.com/news/534773-china-covid19-case-infections-outbreak/
    The Chinese authorities have said that Covid-19 infections in the southeastern province of Fujian have more than doubled in the previous 24 hours. Preliminary tests suggest the Delta variant is responsible for some of the cases.
    Looks like Boris is going to announce us, older persons are to get a third jab, at least half a year, after our second jab. Personally I would have thought the priority is to hunt down the Resfuseniks and force them to be jabbed.
    It is the Refuseniks who are getting seriously ill and some are being killed by Delta.

    #77375 Reply
    ET

    “Can anyone have a guess……….”

    Who knows. Perhaps they have over ordered. From this article in the Scotsman:
    It’s a “traditional” vaccine: “VLA2001 (the vaccine designated ref number) consists of inactivated whole virus particles of SARS-CoV-2 with high S-protein density, in combination with two adjuvants, alum and cytosine phosphoguanine (CpgG 1018).” So it doesn’t showcase the newer vaccine technologies. Also VLA2001 is expected to conform with standard cold chain requirements (2 degrees to 8 degrees centigrade) which would be useful.

    It is currently in phase 3 clinical trials with results due October. Earlier phase trial results were praised by Boris as “very promising” and I have seen reference to an 80% protection and 100% seroconversion in the high dose group. (That ref is from Valneva’s website and 100% effective always gives me pause). Valneva have stated “the UK Government alleges that the company has breached supply agreement obligations,” allegations they strenuously deny. All the other articles I have seen elsewhere say and quote the same things but no detail regarding the alleged breaches is given.

    “The then UK Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, said at the time that the Valneva vaccine “showcases the best of Scottish expertise right at the heart of our UK vaccine endeavour, demonstrating the strength of our union and what the UK can achieve when it works together.”

    So much for that.
    It’s a French company.

    Given all the other stuff going on such as the N.Ireland withdrawal agreement argument and the channel crossing migrants etc etc maybe they wanted to give the French and EU the middle finger.

    Until we know more about the breaches of contract it’s guess work. Valneva’s website blurb on this vaccine.

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