Shame, Lies and Secrecy on Diego Garcia

by craig on April 30, 2013 10:00 am in Uncategorized

Diego Garcia and the Chagos Islands remains a deep shame to the United Kingdom. In the 1960′s we forcibly deported an entire population a thousand miles, very much against their will, to make way for a United States air base. This is not an ancient evil; it continues to seep its poison into current actions, and the remnants of the deported population still linger in Mauritius, dreaming of home.

The Chagos outlines the stark hyprocrisy of UK policy on the Falklands. There we state the will of the islanders is paramount. In the Chagos, we state the will of the islanders is meaningless. Of course, the Falklanders are white-skinned, the Chagossians brown-skinned. That is the limit of the FCO’s attachment to self-determination as a principle. It is not for “Man Fridays”.

“Man Fridays”, according to the US Embassy Cable describing the briefing on Diego Garcia given them by FCO official Colin Roberts, is how Roberts referred to the inhabitants:

Roberts stated that, according to the HGM,s current thinking on a reserve, there would be “no human footprints” or “Man Fridays” on the BIOT’s uninhabited islands.

In the Diego Garcians’ latest attempt to get their home back, Roberts under cross-examination denied emphatically that he had used the term “Man Fridays”. It is difficult to see why the US diplomats who recorded his meeting with them used the term and put it in quotation marks, if Roberts did not use it. Roberts appears, on the face of it, to be potentially a perjurer in court. It was at this point the judges brilliantly resolved this issue by declaring the US Embassy cable ineligible in court on two grounds; firstly, its possession was a contravention of the UK’s official secrets act, as Roberts’ disclosure of the UK government’s duplicity was an official secret; secondly for it to be noticed by a court would contravene the Vienna Convention on the confidentiality of diplomatic communications.

This not only wiped out the problem of the apparent perjury by Colin Roberts; it collapsed the Chagos Islanders’ case that the US Embassy Cable clearly shows that the declaration of a Chagos Islands marine conservation area was merely a ruse to make it impossible for the inhabitants – who are artisan fishermen – to return:

He asserted that establishing a marine park would, in effect, put paid to resettlement claims of the archipelago’s former residents. Responding to Polcouns’ observation that the advocates of Chagossian resettlement continue to vigorously press their case, Roberts opined that the UK’s “environmental lobby is far more powerful than the Chagossians’ advocates.”

Of course, I knew at the time what the evil David Miliband was doing, and I blogged about it in May 2010:

Miliband has now produced what is one of the most cynical acts in the history of British foreign policy. Dressed up as an environmentalist move, and with support from a number of purblind environmentalists, the waters around the Chagos Archipelago have been declared the world’s largest marine reserve – in which all fishing is banned. The islanders, of course, are fishermen.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36139130/ns/world_news-world_environment/

The sheer cynicism of this effort by Miliband to dress up genocide as environmentalism is simply breathtaking. If we were really cooncerned about the environment of Diego Garcia we would not have built a massive airbase and harbour on a fragile coral atoll and filled it with nuclear weapons.

The subsequent wikileaks release of the cable recording the US Embassy briefing by Colin Roberts – which shows just what an odious, immoral creep Colin Roberts is – confirms the truth at what I am saying. I am still very angry at the environmental organisations which allowed themselves to be used in this way; they were blinkered and stupid. There is nothing more dangerous than a good man with a monomania.

The Guardian rightly execrated the ludicrous court decision to pretend the wikileaked US cable did not exist. It rather undermines the famous legal maxim that “facts are stubborn things”. A truer maxim would be “Facts are things which vicious, authoritarian judges can make disappear when it benefits the government for them to do so”.

The implication that facts, no matter how true, can be ignored in court if the government did not wish those facts to emerge, is a major blow to the very possibility of whistleblowing. A judicial system where the court only considers government approved fact, is a cornerstone of fascism. What happened in that court was very serious indeed. Lord Justice Richards and Mr Justice Mitting are a disgrace to their profession, the compliant tools of a policy that should disgust all moral men.

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94 Comments

  1. Everything comes round in circles.

    http://www.chagossupport.org.uk/

    Did you miss an opportunity to speak at their annual conference some 5 days ago, Craig?

  2. ‘The sheer cynicism of this effort by Miliband to dress up genocide as environmentalism is simply breathtaking.’

    Yup, words fail, don’t they? I always found the story of the British troops rounding up all the islanders’ dogs and gassing them, especially chilling.

  3. Sign the petition (UK citizens or residents): http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/34282

  4. Typos? “…convene the Vienna Convention”. There’s also a “cooncerned” somewhere in the woodpile…

  5. Neil Saunders

    30 Apr, 2013 - 11:14 am

    As with so many movements which begin idealistically, and with generally praiseworthy aims, the environmental lobby has been co-opted, infiltrated and manipulated by cynical individuals and groups who do not have the wider public interest at heart.

  6. Have signed your epetition. This is Wikispooks comparison between the Chagos Islands and Falkland Islands as different approaches in different parts of the world.

    http://wikispooks.com/wiki/Falklands_and_Chagos_-_A_Tale_of_Two_Islands

    KingOfWelshNoir, my sentiments exactly regarding the gassing of the island dogs, but also the forced extradition of islanders from their homeland without compensation.

    My guess is the Jewish Charity for whom David Miliband has gone to work, is another in the mould of Blair’s. Likewise with Liam Fox’s Atlantic Bridge, another form of money-laundering.

  7. Well said Craig. The New World Order will start to disappear anything related to opposition to its policies.
    Whatever the cynical Dreoilin may say about paranoia, my insurance company Liverpool Victoria have succeeded in losing the phone call I made to insure my car in January, leaving me compromised uninsured in spite of paying in full all this time.

    In these cynical times, and with a gullible youth brought up on Zionist media’s TV soaps which are entirely dedicated to different types of scams and lies not normally practised by decent human beings ( Turkish TV soaps the worst I have so far seen ), it is easier for managers to destroy evidence because their minions have been acclimatised to wrong-doing. No, I’m not blaming the kids, I’m just saying that this David Miliband behaviour is rapidly becoming the norm. Nothing to do with the gullibility of well-meaning individuals or lobbies. We are simply not used to outright lying.

    Moving on, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the evidence of chemical weapons found in Syria was delivered to order from Assad’s opposition. I wish he had been killed yesterday but he seems to have avoided it on this occasion. The characteristic of lying, adopted by the NATO/AlQaida New World Order Collusion, represents a new tangent in human development.By the time everyone is lying we will all be walking round like mentally ill zombies in former communist dictator hospitals, in grey pyjamas and doped out of our minds. Dreoilin, your talk of paranoia is the best assistance our lying leaders could find.

    I can just hear one eco-warrior saying to another ‘ I think your being a bit paranoid to think the UK government would want to clear the islands just to make a strategic base for its allies.’

    Try screwing the other ear. It might have less fleas than the first one.

  8. In the light of the previous post by Craig,if Scotland ever get’s independence, maybe we can officially adopt the islands and ask for a referendum to find out if they want to be part of Scotland. When they invariably say yes, we can send over a few woad painted Jocks in Kilts to deal with those uppity Yankees !!! I’m up for it.

  9. what about AI and HRW? didn’t they fool you?

  10. April Showers

    30 Apr, 2013 - 12:29 pm

    A cause that John Pilger has taken up too.

    Lisette Talate died the other day. I remember a wiry, fiercely intelligent woman who masked her grief with a determination that was a presence. She was the embodiment of people’s resistance to the war on democracy. I first glimpsed her in a 1950s Colonial Office film about the Chagos islanders, a tiny creole nation living midway between Africa and Asia in the Indian Ocean. The camera panned across thriving villages, a church, a school, a hospital, set in a phenomenon of natural beauty and peace. Lisette remembers the producer saying to her and her teenage friends, “Keep smiling girls!”

    Sitting in her kitchen in Mauritius many years later, she said, “I didn’t have to be told to smile. I was a happy child, because my roots were deep in the islands, my paradise. My great-grandmother was born there; I made six children there. That’s why they couldn’t legally throw us out of our own homes; they had to terrify us into leaving or force us out. At first, they tried to starve us. The food ships stopped arriving [then] they spread rumours we would be bombed, then they turned on our dogs.”

    /..
    http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-world-war-on-democracy

    I can remember feeling outrage when Avaaz sent round a petition in 2010 supporting the marine reserve. I wrote to them in protest that such a ‘reserve’ would prevent the Islanders’ return but received no reply.
    http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_our_oceans/

    Meanwhile Miliband D is counting his IRC lucre in New York along with Thompson the ex DG of the state broadcaster at the NT Times. Does all our dross end up in NY?

  11. I’m not taking your bait, Guano.

  12. Didn’t take long for this one to go o/t, did it?
    Maybe it would look more interesting with some more background:

    The proposed no-fishing zone in the Chagos is 545,000 square kilometres in area. Can’t find the total area of the UK’s territorial waters, but that given for Wales is about 15000 sq.km – rather bigger than Wales, in fact. It will be patrolled by a single protection vessel.

    Given that fish stocks in the North and Irish seas are under considerable threat from overfishing – I know this won’t play in Peterhead, sorry – UK interests would be better served by declaring our territorial waters a no-fry zone, I’d have thought.

    And that’s quite apart from our monumental hypocrisy and insouciant truckling to the Septics* to which Craig quite rightly draws attention.

    *-tank = Yank, for those unaware.

  13. Komodo

    I frequently find that as here when I feel I am at my best – on a neglected topic, exposing an outrage with wide implications, and concise and scathing in my language – by comparison the post draws little interest. Sadly, posts which attract most attention tend to be those in which the topic coincides with current mainstream media content, though of course my angle on the story is generally very different to the mainstream.

  14. The back-drop to the Chagossians suffering:

    http://wikileaks-press.org/topic/uk-works-to-block-expelled-chagos-islanders-from-returning-to-homeland/

    To avoid confirming the WikiLeaks cable’s authenticity, Steven Kovats QC, counsel for the Foreign Office, said the government would stick to a policy of “neither confirm nor deny” anything about the documents. The policy is known in Whitehall as NCND.

    But the judges warned that Roberts could not avoid answering questions by relying on the NCND policy. Kovats then argued that the Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964, which incorporates the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations into domestic law, meant the alleged cable, or copies of it held by newspapers, were inadmissible in evidence.

    In their ruling, the judges agreed and said that the 1964 Act prevented them from considering whether the cable contained an accurate record of the May 2009 meeting. Article 24 of the Vienna Convention states: “The archives and documents of the mission shall be inviolable at any time and wherever they may be.”

    I hope to examine the Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964 in the hope of extracting a point of challenge to answer.

  15. I’m not sure how you measure interest. But so far as comments are concerned there are posts, such as this one, which do not require much comment beyond our saying “Hear! Hear!”
    When you are channeling Colonel Blimp, in the aftermath of, wholly justified, riots, comments will pour in. Not because the subject is grabbing headlines but because you are mistaken.
    On the questions of the Chagos islanders, David Milliband (Blairites in general) and the US regime decent people are as one: the islanders deserve sympathy and support, their persecutors are contemptible.

  16. Yep, politics is always local. The result of evolution. What matters most to most people, is the relative success at breeding (inclusive fitness, not just numbers). From this perspective, unless the Chagossians are coming to get us, they are wey down the list.

    Paradoxically (or not), the best means of helping them may be to motivate the people to struggle for democratic change by appealing to their domestic needs, prejudices and fears. Sort of like what UKIP are doing – in aiming to achieve their narrow goal they are willing to concede a lot more power to the people than any of the ‘mainstream’ three parties. I’m all for it.

  17. technicolour

    30 Apr, 2013 - 2:14 pm

    KOWN: yes, quite.

    More on the marine reserve (MPA) from the Chagos Trust. Last sentence particularly striking: still, at least it sets a precedent.

    “If Chagossians return to the islands in future, we believe that they will benefit from the no-take MPA’s existence since 2010, as it will have helped preserve the archipelago’s environment.

    If the islands do become inhabited, CCT would seek to work with Chagossian communities and the British government to negotiate new terms for the MPA that will enable the population to meet their needs through sustainable fishing, whilst maintaining as much of the Chagos as possible as a no-take reserve. In this event we would be keen to extend our current conservation education work with the Chagossian community.

    1The US military base on Diego Garcia and the water to three miles from its shoreline is not part of the MPA. Recreational fishing here is permitted, but is restricted and carefully monitored.”

    http://www.chagos-trust.org/faq-page#n331

  18. “Steven Kovats QC, counsel for the Foreign Office, said the government would stick to a policy of “neither confirm nor deny” anything …”

    Now where have we heard that before?

  19. Mark Golding (above at 1.49 pm) and others might also consider the long negotiating record behind the Vienna Convention.

    Article 24 of The Vienna Convention concerns the inviolability of diplomatic property and the persons of properly accredited diplomatic agents of the sending state against violations perpetrated by the host state and its agents. It has NOTHING to do with the protection of any country’s diplomatic communications as a result of inadequate protection by that country or (as in this case) by the unauthorised disclosure to others of such material by a national of that same country, being also one who has been given authorised access to that material by authorised agents of that government.

    The Convention also has NOTHING to do with the protection by any country of the physical or intellectual property rights or reputational or diplomatic damage suffered by any other country as a result of the unauthorised disclosure to or publication by third parties of the content of any country’s diplomatic traffic.

    There may be other international conventions or bilateral Treaties which concern the provision of legal protections in such matters, but they are NOTHING to do with the Vienna Convention and any directly related UK legislation giving effect to it within the UK legal system

  20. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Apr, 2013 - 2:25 pm

    Craig; Maybe the lack of interest is a kind of outrage-overload. There seems to be a plethora of pornographic human activity throughout history, so it’s easier to make a heated connection with something current, thereby the media impulse.

    I could add the Aleutian Islands to the Diego Garcia tragedy , and I most likely won’t get a reply.

  21. Chris2,

    Yes, interestingly not one of the permanent naysayers has turned up to argue that the government line is OK.

  22. Now where have we heard that before?

    It’s a matter of national security.
    Ours, not theirs, obviously.
    My lips are sealed.

  23. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Apr, 2013 - 3:14 pm

    Ah, well, I am an American; the worst of the West.

  24. Just a thought – this isn’t by any chance describable as ethnic cleansing, is it?

  25. I agree with Chris2 : we are all on the same page on this one, so there may be fewer comments. But that shouldn’t deter Craig from posting on topics like this, it’s great to see. I knew about the Chagos Islanders from reading Pilger, but I didn’t know about the Milliband conjuring trick. I will definitely be disseminating that one. It all helps.

  26. April Showers

    30 Apr, 2013 - 3:22 pm

    O/T

    The troughers, and I am including Miliband D when we was around, at the House of Commons do well for time out and holidays.

    Easter Recess 27 March – 14 April with a special sitting on 10 April for Thatcher eulogies, £3,750 to return if abroad and the same to return as I understood it.

    Return to house 15 April – 18 April

    19 April House did not sit.

    Return to house 22 April – 25 April

    26 April house prorogued. Return 8 May – 21 May.

    Then in recess 22 May – 31 May

    Return to house 3 June – 18 July

    Off 18 July – 2 September.

    Nice work if you can get it.

  27. John Pilger’s video on the theft of the Chagossians’ homeland, ‘Stealing A Nation’, tells it well (note the UK’s use of the Privy Council and their ‘Orders in Council’ to bypass democracy) -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEhVNzHI4rQ

  28. Miliband is Blair without the brass neck and and the balls. That’s why he lost to his brother (who may of got what balls were going, but not the brains or the sly cunning)

    Say whatever, do whatever, to suck up if it lines his pockets.

    You might not like Blair (I don’t) but at least he had a pair

  29. April Showers

    30 Apr, 2013 - 3:28 pm

    The link to the HoC calendar is

    http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/#!/calendar/Commons/MainChamber/2013/4/19/events.html

    I was looking at their latest register of MPs’ interests earlier. There are 87 mentions of ‘Israel’ although the word is repeated in each record of a visit to Israel. There are two for Kazakhstan (ref the earlier post). They were for Toby Baldry and George Galloway. Liam Fox has been getting around too.

    http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/#!/calendar/Commons/MainChamber/2013/4/19/events.html

  30. April Showers

    30 Apr, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    That last should be http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/130422/130422.pdf

    I noticed Straw is still picking up multi £thousands.

  31. Mind you, some of the islanders are still fishermen. Recreational fishing is permitted to the US residents up to 3 miles from the coast.

    https://sites.google.com/site/thechagosarchipelagofacts/diego-garcia/recreational-fishing

    Bet those Tropical Times photos would be admired in Mauritius…

  32. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Apr, 2013 - 3:46 pm

  33. Much, much more here (p25 onwards), including Diego Garcia, rendition flights, and the divide between the HCFAC and the FCO in 2008.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmfaff/147/147i.pdf

  34. Craig – In your blog you answered in the affirmative your own question about whether we should treat the US cable as a reliable account of what Colin Roberts said at his meeting with US Embassy officials on 12 May 2009.

    There are broader reasons to be confident about the quality of US diplomatic cables. These flow from the considerable experience which you, I and our FCO colleagues have of US diplomatic cables that have been shared with us as allies – nothing to do with ones that have leaked into the public domain. Similarly, I have passed copies of UK diplomatic “telegrams” (in FCO terminology) sent from any Whitehall department or from another UK mission, containing complicated or precise information that needs to be shared with US or other colleagues. Sometimes one wants to emphasis the precise terms in which one has been instructed to act, to prevent any misunderstanding which might result if the point were purely made orally on in a bullet-point Aide Mémoire.

    It is because of these standard diplomatic practices that many UK diplomats have been entirely familiar with the format and general quality of US diplomatic reporting, long before there were ever the Wikileaked examples, now widely disseminated, to widen one’s knowledge of US drafting and reporting skills. I should add that quite often in sharing telegrams/ cables diplomats often “top and tail”the documents or the parts of them that are handed over, generally as an advised precaution – especially if the documents should ever fall into the hands of a hostile government’s agents – since the parts not handed over might well include details identifying some or all of the direct and copy addressees and the date/time groups showing when a telegram was drafted and/or sent, all of which could help a hostile agent to penetrate the communications systems of the the UK, US or other allies and friends.

    So, I am very familiar with US diplomats’ reporting styles and, like you, I am confident that they only put the words used by someone at a meeting in quotation marks when they are recording these as the words actually used. Some of these points may be unfamiliar to judges, though my worry here is that judges sometimes delight in ignoring what is simply commonsense to those in other trades and professions.

  35. April Showers

    30 Apr, 2013 - 4:09 pm

    A timeline about the Chagos Islands here http://www.unisa.ac.za/contents/colleges/docs/Intro_Timeline.pdf

    taken from a reference in

    Falklands/Malvinas
    Who respects self-determination, and who opposes colonialism?
    June 18th, 2012
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/06/falklandsmalvinas/

    by Kim Petersen one of the editors of Dissident Voice who compares the UK pocket pols’ attitude to the Falklands and the Chagos Islands.

  36. doug scorgie

    30 Apr, 2013 - 4:10 pm

    “A SENIOR judge yesterday showed a court his Calvin Klein pants as he denied twice flashing at a woman on a train.”

    “Lord Justice Richards, 56, held up his trendy black briefs as he began his defence of charges that he opened his trousers to show his penis.”

    “He told David Fisher QC, defending, he would need to use both hands to open his underwear enough to expose himself. He added: “That is the natural way of doing it.”

    “Whether one could do it with one hand I don’t know, it is not something I do. For a man, it is natural to use two hands to assist in removing one’s penis.”

    The Court of Appeal judge, also known as Sir Stephen Richards, denies claims by the 23-year-old PR worker of “boxing her in” and flashing at her on a London train on October 16 and 24 last year.
    Yesterday, Mr Fisher asked him: “Did you expose your penis to the victim whilst travelling on a crowded commuter train?”

    Richards replied: “I most certainly did not.”

    He was then asked: “Why would you not expose your penis?”

    Lord Justice Richards] laughed before telling City of Westminster Magistrates Court: “I have no desire to engage in such behaviour. I’m a happily married family man. I can’t perceive any form of gratification from exposing my penis as alleged.”

    http://abovethelaw.com/2007/06/judge-of-the-day-lord-justice-richards/

  37. English Knight

    30 Apr, 2013 - 5:41 pm

    It is rumored by the fishermen in those parts that the out of bounds French held islands in the Indian Ocean are being used to store French nuclear waste. I have pursued this story for many years without any joy, perhaps the Chagos environmentalists can help. There are fishermen who have definitely disappeared in those parts after approaching the French island(s).

  38. But Craig , the islands are needed to conduct more war and why would the islanders wish to return home, no Tescos on the islands and internet shopping is sporadic at the best of times: monsoon rains would really mess up deliveries.

    All for war….and free markets.

    Sorry Craig the comment on skin colour was not necessary.

    I am sure the Islanders can be repatriated, would make good telly, can they sing?

  39. Bird of family Troglolytidae

    30 Apr, 2013 - 6:09 pm

    At least it’s not the Bikini atoll…. At least they declared it protected instead of nuking it….

  40. Bird of family Troglolytidae

    30 Apr, 2013 - 6:21 pm

    April Showers,

    What do you propose? If taken by imperialist conquest or not, should these lands now be given back? If so how?

    What’s your definition of self determination?

  41. @ Komodo. Yes it is ethnic cleansing, although they speak the same kind of creole language as the Mauritians , which once used to own the Chagos until Britain did a deal with France and took it.

  42. … at this point the judges brilliantly resolved this issue by declaring the US Embassy cable ineligible in court on two grounds…….

    Patently a brilliant example of separation of the powers! (My foot, I should cocoa too).

    The systemic racism; “Man Fridays”, further is extended to the degrees of justice the poor Chagossian can expect, fighting their case in the courts of the same bunch of crooks whom dispossessed them from their home lands.

    Evil David Miliband, has since moved on, and no longer content with the paltry money and perks of a lowly MP. He has resigned his safe seat and is moving on to US as a pay off for his role in supporting his masters cause, and being a damn fine Hasbara Author.

  43. Rouge, thank you for posting the Pilger documentary which demonstrates how shameful the British government can be, how sycophantic it is towards the US and how the monarchy should be abolished.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEhVNzHI4rQ

    Please sign and spread this epetition if you’re British.

    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/34282

  44. Roberts is a parrot. He parroted his elders/seniors/betters – caught out he claims otherwise but the following gives the lies to his dissembling:

    A 1966 FO memo from Sir Paul Gore Booth to Dennis Greenhill stated:

    “We must surely be very tough about this. The object of the exercise is to get some rocks which will remain ours… There will be no indigenous population except seagulls who have not yet got a committee (the Status of Women Committee does not cover the rights of birds)…..The United States Government will require the removal of the entire population of the atoll by July.”

    A handwritten note on the memo by Greenhill, later Baron Greenhill of Harrow, reads:

    “Unfortunately, along with the birds go some few Tarzans or Men Fridays whose origins are obscure and who are hopefully being wished on to Mauritius etc. When this has been done I agree we must be very tough and a submission is being done accordingly.”

    ‘Man Friday’ was/is, it seems, a trendy favoured epithet in senior FCO circles – emblematic of the haughty arrogance of the arbiters of Britains foreign policy – Prince Machiavelli would be proud of them.

    All referenced in the Wikispooks article linked by John Goss 11:19am

  45. Wikispooks

    Also indicative of hereditary class rule, Sir Paul Gore Booth’s father was Cabinet Secretary; his son Sir David Gore-Booth was a very senior foreign office official when I first joined (and a very nice man, but that is hardly the point).

  46. According to Wikipedia

    “Diego Garcia had no permanent inhabitants when discovered by the Spanish explorer Diego García de Moguer in the 16th century and remained so until settled as a French colony in 1793.”[13]

    Stoddart and Taylor of the Smithsonian Institute make this claim. I find it hard to believe. There would almost certainly permanent settlers. Diego García de Moguer may have not seen any islanders so would have stuck a Spanish flag in it for his King. Stoddart and Taylor could not possibly know there were no permanent residents for the next 250 years.

  47. “Man Fridays and Birds”

    And thanks to identity politics they can’t use language like that anymore!

    What a win, eh.

  48. Craig, nothing to add except more posts like this please. Don’t take any dirth of comments to heart. There are quite a few anyway.

  49. In the ten hours since I became the 801 epetition signatory it has gone up to 823. Well done! Pity we did not know about it ealier.

  50. Dreoilin

    I am the bait on the Zionist hook which now owns all the security, military, financial, infrastructure and communications companies that run this country, bought cheap in various recessions. Why ever should we worry about our nuclear bombs or airports being owned and controlled by Israelis?

    I was asking you to notice the hook instead of ‘biting the worm.

  51. “They did that in Germany”

    Naomi Wolf

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f0sBA61L0Y

    1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy

    2. Create a gulag

    3. Develop a thug caste

    4. Set up an internal surveillance system

    5. Harass citizens’ groups

    6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release

    7. Target key individuals

    8. Control the press

    9. Dissent equals treason

    10. Suspend the rule of law

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

  52. Craig at 1.23 – Just to endorse Chris 2 and Kown’s comments; I have neither the knowledge nor the diligence of our lovely Dragon and others to add anything of substance to your post, other than to bang the table in agreement.

    I remember the outrage we all felt at the crime perpetrated against the Chagossians in the 1960′s, but am ashamed now to admit that it was probably the gassed dogs that made it seem all the more heinous – surrounded as we were then by umpteen of the buggers from the RSPCA shelter.

    So thanks for bringing this up again and no, you’re not shouting in vain; you’ve poked the embers and who knows what will come out of it; hopefully justice for the islanders.

  53. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella)

    30 Apr, 2013 - 10:19 pm

    Just wanted those who fear me (and those who admire) to know that I’ve neither “retired” nor am posting under a new name.

    Just sunnning myself (no, Guano, not in one of the sheikdoms and no, Scorgie, not in Eilat)…..but keeping a watchful eye on all of you. My apologies for not posting for a couple of days!

    I quite like the brand-new poster called April Showers. She reminds me a lot of the late Mary, especially in the way she interupts each and every thread with off-topic posts, but on the other hand she doesn’t seem to share Mary’s obsession with the Jewish bloodline and her comments have avoided snide-ness (is that a word?) so far.

    Back soon,k bear with me!

    pip, pip!

  54. The implication that facts, no matter how true, can be ignored in court if the government did not wish those facts to emerge, is a major blow to the very possibility of whistleblowing.
    Bollox; it’s got bugger all to do with whistleblowing, unless the evidence related to said whistleblowing is covered by the Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964.

  55. The sheer cynicism of this effort by Miliband to dress up genocide as environmentalism is simply breathtaking.

    Perhaps, but environmentalism does have a long history in this regard. Wasn’t poaching on the king’s land a capital crime in Medieval England? About 20 years back I attended a Green Party convention of some sort in Oregon that had a fairly large contingent from Europe. I swear about 1/3 of them sounded like Malthusians if not proto-fascist.

  56. “Jeffrey Sachs’ Speech on Wall Street Corruption”

    http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2013/04/jeffrey-sachs-speech-on-wall-street-corruption/

  57. ‘Stoddart and Taylor of the Smithsonian Institute make this claim. I find it hard to believe. There would almost certainly permanent settlers.’

    There would almost certainly have been previous inhabitants, if not settlers; the Malays who crossed the Indian Ocean in their journey to Madagascar must surely have used the islands as a stop over. The displaced Chagossians however are clearly descended from slaves and indentured labourers imported from Mauritius around 200 years ago- and then promptly re-exported there by Denis Healey & the FCO in the late 60s.

  58. Craig,
    I’m so glad now that you realise how bent some of the high court judges are.

  59. Gerald James,
    ‘In the course of my own experiences I took considerable note and interest in parallel cases like Matrix Churchill, Ordtec, Euromac, Atlantic Commercial, BNJ, SRC, Forgemasters, Walter Somers, Polly Peck, Foxley Ferranti/ISC, BCCI, Maxwell etc. All these cases and others and the Astra case involved the gross abuse of power by Government and its agencies and servants, concealment of key evidence, intimidation, threats, false and selective prosecutions, manipulation of evidence, perversion of the course of justice. It has also been clearly demonstrated that there is no separation of powers within the United Kingdom. Key legal appointments like Lord Chancellor and attorney General, Solicitor General are wholly political. It has also been clearly demonstrated that Parliament has no control of knowledge of events and that a vast apparatus of permanent unelected Government exists. This permanent Government consists of senior civil servants, intelligence and security officers, key figures in certain city and financial institutions (including Lloyds of London), key industrialists and directors of major monopolistic companies, senior politicians. The Lord Chancellors Office which is responsible for the appointment of Judges, Clerks of the House of Commons select Committees and approval of Chairmen of such committees and the approval of the Queen’s Counsel, holds a total control of the legal administrative framework and has strong connections to the security and intelligence services. The last Clerk to the Crown in Chancery was Sir Thomas Legg, KCB QC who had strong links to the intelligence and security establishment and who was responsible for allocating Judges to controversial trials of a political nature where the “national interest” and “national security” (those much abused phrases) were involved, ie the Ponting Case. Legg’s successor will have a similar role. Sir Thomas was duly wheeled out to keep the lid on the Sandline Inquiry re the strange events surrounding the FCO, Sierra Leone and real foreign policy as opposed to the sham variety discussed at Westminster. He has been wheeled out again to keep the lid on an inquiry regarding the corruption in the hugely expensive building of new MP’s offices opposite Big Ben. The companies involved in this case are Alvis, formerly United Scientific Holdings and its Germany partner in the installation of a £35m contract for copper cladding. United Scientific Holdings is the company where ex Chief of defence Procurement and ex Lord Mayor Sir Peter, now Lord Levene was Managing director (later a Director of N.M. Rothschild) was Chairman. An American competitor alleges irregularities and corruption as it offered to do the work for a much lower price.’

  60. Hopefully, you might even realise that there is in fact a state within a state.

  61. “This is why the UK Government will never truly impose proper anti-money laundering controls, because to do so would be to undermine the system which keeps foreigners’ dirty and criminal money from travelling through the City of London, and enables Cameron and Osborne’s school and University chums to wax fat on the proceeds, whether from legal fees, accounting services, banking advice, or just plain old-fashioned relocation services!”

    http://rowans-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/russian-money-laundering-in-london.html

  62. If any of us ever have the misfortune to be up before the beak, will any of us ever get a fair trial?

    The case of Diego Garcia is one of national shame for this country (though as I pointed out in an earlier comment, sticking a knife in the backs of the Falklanders won’t even things up a bit), but I also remember a British judge turning off Milosovich’s microphone when he was saying something from the dock:- why? “The Framing of Al Magrahi” (traceable on-line) by Gareth Pierce also makes interesting reading. What is to be done?

  63. April Showers

    1 May, 2013 - 8:49 am

    ….bring forth May flowers. Happy Mayday to almost everyone here. Current and silly threats aside, it has been very pleasant for me to have been troll free for a short while.

    I am not deceased but is alive and well but am living in a Tory stronghold unfortunately.

    The boy Hague has just been on Radio 4 (worried about UKIP tomorrow I guess) extolling the virtues of Conservative county administrations.

    ‘They have not raised council tax’. WRONG this one has raised council tax by 1.99% just as the local council have done.

    ‘They are efficient’. WRONG For instance, this one left an old lady alone for 9 days when a care agency they employed went out of business.

    We steer round the potholes here and little or no maintenance is being done on roads, drains, grass mowing etc. They have a poor record on children’s social services and more and more children are being taught in portacabins where achool are not large enough or where the buildings are unusable. Libraries have been closed and facilities for elderly day care have been cut.

    There was a fall out in the leadership of the county council last year and under the new leader the council has been going off for expensive away days for meetings.

    Hague was also evasive on the cut to South African aid. Greening had said that an agreement had been reached with the SA African government. This is untrue.

    He was not asked about the useless deaths of three more British servicemen in Nahr-e Saraj. They were in a heavily armoured Mastiff vehicle apparently. Mr Hammond should ask the manufacturers Force Protection for a $half a million refund.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar_(vehicle)
    ~~

    Good luck tomorrow Nevermind. As you see, we could do with you down here.

  64. April Showers

    1 May, 2013 - 8:50 am

    I am not deceased but AM alive and well….

  65. O/T

    Extraordinary article in the Guardian which seems to be promoting/admiring Al-Qaida

    “Al-Qaida turns tide for rebels in battle for eastern Syria”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/30/al-qaida-rebels-battle-syria

  66. Man Sought After Commons Blaze

    A fire was reported in the early hours of Wednesday morning in the Pen Ponds area of Richmond Common. Thirteen fire-crews from across the capital spent six hours bringing a blaze under control. A fire brigade spokesman says the bitter east winds of the last fortnight had left the the underbrush tinder dry and fanned the flames.

    Police wish to interview a man seen entering the woods earlier on Sunday afternoon carrying a backpack and laptop bag decorated with Transformers stickers.

  67. And meanwhile Obama doesn’t have the guts to say that Guantanamo is downright wrong, morally, legally, every which way, except

    Guantánamo prison ‘not in the best interests of the American people’

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/30/obama-guantanamo-hunger-strike-worsens

  68. Sophie Habbercake

    1 May, 2013 - 9:27 am

    Dad!

    Sunning your self? Ha! We all know that was you hiding out on the common dad cos Ophelia Beckenson and Charlie Mc Quade saw you putting up your tent on Sundy afternoon.

    Why do you keep posting that stuff? And I noticed not even you could defend the utterlydisgusting treatment of the Chagos islanders. Well that’s a first anyway. Mr Kemp told mum they weren’t going to pay you any more. They obviously want you to stop really badly so I can’t understand why you carry on doing it.

    And that van with the Russian men in it is still outside the O’Brien’s.

    And now the radio says the police want you to turn yourself in and mum says you always were a walking disaster.

  69. I came across Reuters policy regarding use of the words ‘terrorist’ and ‘terrorism’ some time ago, and haven’t seen it since. I think what I originally came across might have been on radio. Anyway, I found this this morning:

    When does Reuters use the word terrorist or terrorism?
    http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-editors/2007/06/13/when-does-reuters-use-the-word-terrorist-or-terrorism/

  70. Sophie Habbercake

    1 May, 2013 - 9:38 am

    And Adrian says he wants his laptop back and he’s not going to Elocution anymore and I bet the Chagos Islanders were better at cooking their baked beans than you and never burned the whole place down.

  71. O/T and not of interest to the intelligentsia and establishment huggers who love nothing else except more of the same.

    Thanks April Showers, lets hope the electorate can be bothered, not holding my breath. Today’s my last day of campaigning and I shall do it in the garden, rows of chard and cavallo nero, rather than doorstepping, cajoling the wary or waking up those too sleepy to bother.

    The coverage during the last two days looks like the BBC is pandering to a UKIP which has not even been seen in the pub here, never mind anywhere else. This overt yearning for more right wing racist types who have the full support of the EDL, gosh what a catch, is the last resort to scare us into the existing party political line.

    Or if that fails, scare us away from the voting booth by shortening this campaign to a bare minimum of a week.

    To make out that UKIP are Independents is the greatest ruse, they are about as independent as Joachim von Ribbentrop was.

  72. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella)

    1 May, 2013 - 10:43 am

    @April Showers (08h49) :

    “Current and silly threats aside….”
    ——

    Now now! I do hope you’re not starting up hostilities again.

  73. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella)

    1 May, 2013 - 10:47 am

    @ Nevermind (1Oh12) :

    “To make out that UKIP are Independents is the greatest ruse, they are about as independent as Joachim von Ribbentrop was.”

    ———

    That’s interesting, I hadn’t realised that von Ribbentrop claimed to be, or was considered to be, an ‘independent’.

    Could you tell us a little (or even much) more?.

    Schoenen Dank!

  74. Joachim von habbakack
    has woken up

    bless, ready for more cyber stalking he’s still obsessed, still carrying his genital were his two braincells reside.

    without contributing anything, zilch, ueberhaupt nichts.

  75. Ruth (at 12.33 am above) – While I agree that in many areas of public life in the UK there are networks that influence in opaque ways [despite public commitments to "transparency"] many appointments to influential positions, my own experience suggests that it is wrong to think that the Clerks to House of Commons Select Committees are chosen because they will not cause problems for the government. None of the clerks I have dealt with in recent years have been other than helpful, and ready to look out actively for written and oral evidence from non-establishment sources to help select committees with their inquiries. It was also a great advance under the Coalition government that the direct influence of party whips was removed from the process of appointing the chairs of select committees. They are now elected by MPs (I think only backbenchers, but I may be wrong.

    That said, others have had different experiences. Craig can perhaps provide more details of inquiries where he and other non-establishment voices have offered to give evidence and this has been rejected. But in my experience it is rare for written submissions to Select Committee inquiries not to be published as part of the evidence before the members of the committee.

    On judges, especially in the case of the Chagos MPA, there’s more to be said, but I will do that in another comment later today.

  76. April Showers

    1 May, 2013 - 1:26 pm

    Sophie Habercake’s posts are SO funny. Should be turned into a book like Sue Townsend’s Adrian Mole.

    Nevermind. I saw that the Con tw*t was delivering his missives in our road. The last one boasted of his success with the roads apparently. LOL. Can’t miss him as he has a twee little car (so ecologically friendly NOT with their incinerators all over the county) with a personalized number plate. When he got to mine he looked at the notice on my letterbox – No Party political literature or canvassers here for the duration Thank you – he hesitated and pushed off helped by a bark or two from my dog.

    The Con and the Dems are going to be wiped out. Agree with you on UKIP who will appeal to the anti immigration brigade.

  77. Dreoilin
    Thanks for the Guardian link about Syria and Al Qaida.

    “When we attacked the base with the FSA we tried everything and failed,” said Abu Khuder. “Even with around 200 men attacking from multiple fronts they couldn’t injure a single government soldier and instead wasted 1.5m Syrian pounds [£14,500] on firing ammunition at the walls.

    Then a group of devout and disciplined Islamist fighters in the nearby village offered to help. They summoned an expert from Damascus and after two days of work handed Abu Khuder their token of friendship: a truck rigged with two tonnes of explosives.”

    Only UKUSIS can assist the safe passage of a lorry of explosives to groups who do not use any legal process with captives.

    France put in the Assad clan. Who’s putting in Al Qaida?

    Plus ca change, plus the Muslim world begs its enemies to put it in chains again.

  78. The Imperial Anatomy of Al-Qaeda. The CIA’s Drug-Running Terrorists and the
    “Arc of Crisis”

    “This three-part series on “The Imperial Anatomy of Al-Qaeda” examines the geopolitical historical origins and nature of what we today know as al-Qaeda, which is in fact an Anglo-
    American intelligence network of terrorist assets used to advance American and NATO imperial objectives in various regions around the world.”

    It’s .pdf which I hate. They often hang my machine.

    Nevertheless, interesting stuff. The author (I assume) is this guy here
    http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/about/

  79. Sophie "Cagna Pazza" Habbercake

    1 May, 2013 - 4:33 pm

    April Showers

    If my posts give you a smile and help you forgive the venomous posts my dad spews out then that’s all the reason I’ll ever need. Whatever motivates him, he seems immune to any genuine consideration or rational dialogue and I don’t believe he’ll ever change, but I live in hope.
    In the meantime it bothers me to see him ever succeed in diverting people from the wonderful discourse and crowd-sourced journey of discovery that Craig Murray sparks with this blog. Thanks to one and all.

    But DON’T think all that gives you the green light with Mr Komodo!! He may be a lizard, with increasingly low standards of oral hygene, but he’s going to be MY lizard……once he sorts out that small task I set him with Bliar.

  80. They tried Germany’s judges at Nurember. As this country is,in all but name, now a fascist state maybe we should demand the corrupt oafs get the same treatment. Miliblands of either sort are equally revolting.People’s Tribunals should be set up as soon as possible to administer justice.

  81. doug scorgie

    1 May, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    Craig on April 30, 2013 10:00 am
    Shame, Lies and Secrecy on Diego Garcia

    “Lord Justice Richards and Mr Justice Mitting are a disgrace to their profession…”

    In my earlier post – 30 Apr, 2013 – 4:10 pm in which I highlighted the case of a high court judge charged with indecent exposure; I did not make clear that the judge in question was called Lord Justice Richards and was reported on in 2007 by the Daily Record.
    I assume that this is THE Lord Justice Richards that ruled on the Diego Garcians’ court case. Am I right or am I wrong?

  82. Has Cameron got a cold? His voice seems to have changed. Or has someone been swinging low on his definite articles to get him to give Israel the contract for security just up the road in Syria in a few weeks time, using the aid budget for people like the Chagos Islands.

    It’s called the Faustus syndrome. You happen to be the very man to confide in that Assad has no chemical weapons because they have been removed way before UK snipers started this civil war. But also you will understand that the placing of false-flag bombs under the cover of a security contract would solve the little problem of the Arab Spring freedom justice peace woffle of the Syrian people.

    Then your soul belongs to them and you too can have a camp bed in the inner recesses of a pyramid burial chamber or the vaults of a nuclear bunker next to Tony’s and be let out bleary-eyed to protest your innocence from time to time.

  83. Very nice post. I just stumbled upon your blog and wanted to say that I’ve really enjoyed browsing your blog posts. After all I will be subscribing to your rss feed and I hope you write again soon!

  84. April Showers

    2 May, 2013 - 9:18 am

    Doug Scorgie yesterday

    One and the same it would appear.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Richards_(judge)

  85. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella)

    2 May, 2013 - 10:30 am

    Yes, Nevermind, very funny and very constructive post, but surely your energy could have been better used to answer the question, which was : did von Ribbentrop ever claim to be an ‘independent’ or was he ever perceived as having been ‘independent’?

    You really should stop posting things for effect or to get a laugh, that’s not what this blog should be about.

  86. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella)

    2 May, 2013 - 10:36 am

    “Sophie Habercake’s posts are SO funny.” assures Mary, aka April Showers.

    Mmmmmm.

    I’m just wondering whether that assessment should rank higher or lower in the believability stakes than Mary’s solemn assurance that she was going to leave this blog for good…?

  87. kare karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    2 May, 2013 - 12:05 pm

    Herbie

    what you naively attribute to Germans was known and formulated long time before the NS ascent to power. The principal ideas are spelled out by Machiavelli and in a more modern, up to date form in the THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION

    TABLE OF CONTENTS

    Preface
    Introduction
    Who are the Elders?
    Protocol I The Basic Doctrine
    Protocol II Economic Wars
    Protocol III Methods of Conquest
    Protocol IV Materialism Replaces Religion
    Protocol V Despotism and Modern Progress
    Protocol VI Take-Over Technique
    Protocol VII World-Wide Wars
    Protocol VIII Provisional Government
    Protocol IX Re-education
    Protocol X Preparing for Power
    Protocol XI The Totalitarian State
    Protocol XII Control of the Press
    Protocol XIII Distractions
    Protocol XIV Assault on Religion
    Protocol XV Ruthless Suppression
    Protocol XVI Brainwashing
    Protocol XVII Abuse of Authority
    Protocol XVIII Arrest of Opponents
    Protocol XIX Rulers and People
    Protocol XX Financial Programme
    Protocol XXI Loans and Credit
    Protocol XXII Power of Gold
    Protocol XXIII Instilling Obedience
    Protocol XXIV Qualities of the Ruler

    to be found at http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.ht.

    If you do not believe it, read the supposed “forgery” but forgery of what?? perhaps Halibabacus, that miserable wretch, who pretends to believe that there are actually “those who fear me (meaning him) and those who admire (again him)” will explain us how things really are.

  88. forgery of what? (and it is a forgery)…

    (snip)…The Protocols were in fact “launched” to the wider public on 8 May 1920 by The Times of London, in which an editorial entitled “The Jewish Peril: a disturbing pamphlet. Demand an inquest.” evoked this “singular, short book,” to which the newspaper seem to accord credit. The Times made good a little later, in August 1921, by announcing “The End of the Protocols” and publishing proof of the falsification. The Istanbul correspondent of the British daily had been conducted by a White Russian who had taken refuge in Turkey and, obviously well informed, had revealed to him that the text of the Protocols was the transfer [le decalque] of a French pamphlet against Napoleon III. A rapid verification proved the falsification: the Protocols actually took up the text of the Dialogue in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, published in Brussels in 1864 by Maurice Joly, an anti-Bonapartist lawyer who intended to show that the Emperor and his coterie were plotting to seize all power within French society. Using this forgotten text,[2] which won Maurice Joly two years in prison, the forger of the Protocols replaced “France” with “the world” and “Napoleon III” with “the Jews.” The crude swindle was exploded by a simple line by line comparison of the two texts. The fake was revealed, but the mystery of its origin remained. One simply knew that the original text was drafted in French and one supposed that the fake had been fabricated at the beginning of the century, in Paris, in the milieus of the Russian political police. (snip)

    http://www.notbored.org/protocols-history.html

    In other words, it wasn’t even originally about any Jewish conspiracy. The names were changed to protect the guilty. It’s about time this document was treated with the contempt it deserves. Accordingly -
    Pffft.

  89. The cause of the Chagossians should be kept alive. Perhaps the NAACP in the USA might be interested, as it is a racial issue involving the USA?

  90. kare karel (a conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    2 May, 2013 - 8:44 pm

    komodo,

    my dear friend. I was concerned about principles or concepts of world domination as layed down in nineteenth century France. Whether someone later substituted in the text of the “Protocols” Jews for Napoleon or Eskimos is besides the point and pointing this out is just a deviation. To claim that the text of the Protocols was taken directly from Maurice Jolly is a fantasy as you will surely notice after having read it cf. http://www.notbored.org/dialogue-in-hell-VIII.html As all those pamphlets were supposedly destroyed, we cannot be even sure about the authenticity of the above cited version and Jolly could have or most probably did copy something from the much longer text of the Protocols as henry Makoff suggests http://www.henrymakow.com/maurice_joly_plagiarized_proto.html. Who the hell knows which text is the older one and then what and where is the original that was supposedly forged??

    What Is so original about the protocols is that it offers a recipe for world domination. Whether it is a good recipe or not the time will tell. It is like cooking. Let us consider a hypothetical case where I may invent and develop a recipe for a dish. Let me call it the “The Rabbit of Zion”. The family enjoyed it, the friends who turned up for the dinner become extactic and tell me that the world should learn about that rabbit. Having persueded me to include it into a cookery book called “The hot owen”, I have it published. Some time later I get a threatening letter from a lawyers syndicate accusing me of forgery as my sentence “put the greased rabbit into a preheated owen” was word for word fetched from some other publication. Nice, Deek Jackson would say.

  91. Dremel (the power tool)

    3 May, 2013 - 3:44 pm

    Dreoilin,

    Reading through the PDF link you posted. Imperialism again? Common…

    Why don’t you find something that focuses on all powerful nations, throughout history?

    You ever read or study anything on international relations and conflict?

    You know in some ways you are a modern imperialist, or at least support it….

  92. Dremel (the power tool)

    3 May, 2013 - 5:59 pm

    “And meanwhile Obama doesn’t have the guts to say that Guantanamo is downright wrong, morally, legally, every which way, except Guantánamo prison ‘not in the best interests of the American people’”

    Dreoilin, he inherited it. He tried to close it. There’s a super max in Colorado built, brand new, but unfortunately we have something called Congress, and there’s a big divide here, especially after the elections last year. The right wing has and is (since the Obama administration) made an issue out of everything it can. Really if you take a look at the blue vs. red states in the last election, people are becoming increasingly divided. I know, now your going to talk about the conditions there, how many there are innocent, etc. I agree, and the whole military tribunal thing is a mess. They should be tried in a US Federal Court, not with made up rules and procedures. This has been fought for, and the Supreme Court ruled they can file a writ, but it doesn’t go far enough. For the people too scared to let them into a US prison, and the fights that go on about this issue in Congress, those to the right can’t deny that any person brought to trial on terrorism charges in a US federal court has been convicted by the evidence, while providing them full representation and procedures that any US citizen has. While that might not be fair for you, it’s better than what they currently have at Getmo….

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