Now is the Winter of our Disinterment

by craig on February 5, 2013 7:01 am in Uncategorized

The researchers had a hunch he was there. ATOS pass Richard III’s skeleton as fit to work.

Joking aside, the discovery of Richard III’s body is fascinating and wonderful. Aside from Shakespeare’s brilliant play (which is evidently not as physically inaccurate as we have been told for years), and the question of who killed the Princes in the Tower, there is a romance about lost dynasties which appeals to a deep human yearning for a golden age when things were somehow better, and for “lost futures”. What might have been, had those evil Stanleys not turned on Richard at Bosworth and put their miserable Welsh accountant on the throne?

Richard is described in today’s newspapers as the last English King. The Plantagenets were of course Angevin. The last English King – indeed the only English King of all England – was Harold Godwinson. Now there’s a lost dynasty for you.

We now know that Richard’s “Claim of Right” was almost certainly true and Edward IV a bastard, as his father was nowhere near his mother for months around the purported conception. But the so-called Royal line is, I am quite sure, sprinkled with bastards and no line at all. Not to mention that George I was 39th in line to the throne when given it 300 years ago, but the first Protestant.

Monarchy is bollocks, and something we should have outgrown a long time ago. Nice to see that today’s Prince Harry retains the tradition of remorseless homicide though.

Leicester University deserve congratulations on a genuine achievement. I hope Richard can now be reburied as soon as possible – as a Catholic, which is what he was. He was a human being. The degradation and display of his fresh corpse were horrible; but there is a danger of repeating it with a po face and feigned serious intent.

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  1. >The last English King – indeed the only English King of all England – was Harold Godwinson.

    I think Aethelstan was the first king of all England.

    But the Anglo Saxon Kings did remain a powerful memory in England. The parliamentarians in the Civil War believed they had overthrown the Norman Yoke. The founding fathers in the US believed that their constitution was a remaking of the Anglo Saxon Constitution and their first warship was named Alfred. The Chartists wanted a return to the more open, democratic ideals of Alfred and Ethelflaed’s kingdom. A lot of Victorian and Edwardian painters celebrated portraits of Anglo Saxon kings. I can remember a pamphlet in the 1970’s demanding a return to the “Anglo Saxon Constitution.”

  2. And what is the next thing I see:

    After Richard III, archaeologists set their sights on Alfred the Great

    Following the discovery of Richard III’s skeleton under a Leicester car park, archaeologists are now turning their attentions to locating another lost king, Alfred the Great.

  3. Clark

    I snaffled the ATOS one off a Guardian comment thread. Rather good I thought. I came up with the winter of our disinterment myself, but presumably along with thousands of other people. I hadn’t looked through the Amelia Hill thread lately. It seems strangely besieged by trolls – I can’t believe they are wheeling out the “Why don’t you criticise Russia and Iran” rubbish again.

  4. Richard Gadsden

    5 Feb, 2013 - 7:56 am

    George I, not George III.

  5. Saw the programme on C4 last night…facinating !

  6. doug scorgie

    5 Feb, 2013 - 8:36 am

    The British Monarchy is absolutely essential to the powerful, unelected, unaccountable elite that really run this country behind closed doors.

    Recent disclosures that the Queen and Prince Charles are consulted on matters of parliament and can veto the introduction of proposed legislation show that we do indeed have a shadow government with the royals as standard-bearers.

    Democracy is ok it seems as long as it produces the “right” result and doesn’t adversely affect the power and interests of our anonymous elite.

    The following extracts are from Jonathan Freedland ,The Guardian, Wednesday 15 March 2006 .

    “As Peter Wright confirmed in his book Spycatcher, [Harold] Wilson was the victim of a protracted, illegal campaign of destabilisation by a rogue element in the security services.”

    “Retired intelligence officers gathered with military brass and plotted a coup d’état. They would seize Heathrow airport, the BBC and Buckingham Palace. Lord Mountbatten would be the strongman, acting as interim prime minister. The Queen would read a statement urging the public to support the armed forces, because the government was no longer able to keep order.”

    “[There is] archive footage of troop manoeuvres at Heathrow, billed as a routine exercise but about which Wilson was never informed – and which he interpreted as a show of strength, a warning, even a rehearsal for a coup.”

    “… officially it never happened: a 1987 inquiry under Margaret Thatcher concluded the allegations were false, implying that the fading Wilson had descended into paranoia.”

    We now know it did happen.

    We are ‘allowed’, it seems, to have democracy provided certain lines are not crossed by the elected government.

    The monarchy should be abolished but I fear there are some very dangerous actors behind the scenes that would not allow that to happen.

  7. doug scorgie: “We are ‘allowed’, it seems, to have democracy provided certain lines are not crossed by the elected government.”

    Yes, and a very effective system it is, too. It keeps public discontent to a minimum and doesn’t arouse public suspicion. Far more efficient than outright dictatorship. Why squeeze sand? It’ll only start slipping through your fingers.

  8. On topic insofar as Richard III is mentioned in the opening sentence here from Nigella’s bruv.

    Dominic Lawson
    Monday 4 February 2013

    Chris Huhne’s downfall is another example of the amazing risks a politician will take
    People who choose a career of perpetual uncertainty are liable to behave crazily. Just look at Archer, Aitken, Crossman, Phillips, Bevan…

    PS Lawson’s journalisitic pathway… FT>Spectator>Sunday Torygraph>Independent and Sunday Times

    PPS I heard that some radio presenter has referred to Richard as the ‘Richard One hundred and eleven’.

    PPPS If I mention Craig’s reference to P Harry, the trolls might descend here. Otherwise I can’t think they will have anything to say about a dead monarch five centuries distant.

  9. Of fires and frying pans.

    We did once get rid of the monarchy, but it was replaced by Utopian proto-socialists, who could only see the faults in the natural human condition. The people elected the restoration, not so much due to the virtues of monarchy, but because their traditions had been subverted by the radical alternatives of the Puritans.

  10. I thought the skull looked more like that of Yorick than of Richard III but the DNA has proved me wrong?

    O/T. Modesty has no home where human rights’ abuses are concerned. The last British internee at Guantanamo Bay is Shaker Aamer. He has been there for a decade without charge. My disgust is beyond description.

  11. “had those evil Stanleys not turned on Richard at Bosworth and put their miserable Welsh accountant on the throne”
    I’d happily argue that the miserable Welsh accountant turned out to be one of the better monarchs. Not that there’s strong competition, but he was notably less of a war-monger or pompous twit than his alleged forebears or progeny.

  12. While I am absolutely against our military presence in Afghanistan, and it is true that he is being kept mostly out of harm’s way, and whatever the rights and wrongs of the conflict (have I qualified this enough?), at least Prince Harry is there representing the British elite, doing the dirty work and facing the reality on the ground, unlike the politicians who, along with their sons and daughters, are kept safely away from the horrors of what they started. Killing may at present be as trivial to him as a video game, but he will know of the mental anguish that service personel experience first-hand, and may well it experience it himself. That is far more than can be said for the likes of Blair and Cameron. If we are going to have these wars, then I would like to see far more of our elites participating in them, as they once did.

  13. Well, we in Germany have left at least that monarchy stuff behind us. Yet our public (!) channels use to cover foreign royal weddings etc. over at least six hours or so…
    But honestly, Craig, I couldn’t agree more on the view on monarchy and the current queen you expressed in the Orangemen!

  14. John Edwards

    5 Feb, 2013 - 11:33 am

    As it happens I’ve just finished reading Josephine Tey’s novel “A Daughter of Time” which makes a rather convincing case that Richard was not only the rightful King and quite a good one but that Henry Tudor as a usurper went on to murder everyone in front of him in the line of succession including the Princes in the Tower.

    The lesson from the construction of the faked Tudor version of history, Shakespeare included, is never believe everything you are told, then or now.

  15. Henry wouldn’t have had the opportunity to murder the princes until after he became king in 1485 which was two years after they disappeared. Tey would need to establish where they were during those two intervening years and why Richard didn’t produce them to quash rumours that were circulating as early as 1483.

  16. “makes a rather convincing case that Richard was not only the rightful King and quite a good one”
    He may have been the rightful monarch, and not for moment will I suggest that Tudor historians have been fair to him, but the idea Richard was a “good king” is a bit daft. Fewer than three years on the throne is nowhere near long enough to draw that sort of a conclusion.
    Unless the standard for “good king” is “better than Henry VIII”, in which case, okay.

  17. Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones. They are now arguing over them. York Minster claims them and wants to give him a state burial!

  18. My gut feeling is that this thread on the skeletal remains of Richard III will soon be dead an buried. So sorry to be off topic again but related to my NJP article on Shaker Aamer:

    is the most detailed catalogue of extraordinary rendition, torture and abuse yet produced. Complicit in this US abuse are the UK, Germany, Sweden and many other so-called civilised countries. Published today “Globalising Turture” is produced by Open Society Foundations and appears to be meticulously researched.

  19. It seems pretty clear that he will be reburied at Leicester Cathedral.

    The reinterment licence, granted to the University of Leicester by the Ministry of Justice, confirms that the king’s remains will stay in Leicester, and in due course be reinterred at Leicester Cathedral.

    The terms of the reinterment licence state: “The remains shall, no later than August 31, 2014, be deposited at Jewry Wall Museum or else be reinterred at St Martin’s Cathedral, or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place.

    (From the City Council’s website)

  20. @Leon Well, we in Germany have left at least that monarchy stuff behind us.Thanks a bunch Leon for
    dumping them on us.Do you want them back?


  21. “…tyranny will fall only when the last king is strangled with the intestines of the last priest” (Diderot, seemingly)

    Still waiting.

    Vaguely apropos – while the vengeance of the law is poised to fall on the little liar Huhne, can we now look forward to the arrest of another lying politician? Whose lies led to the deaths of thousands, and the waste of billions of pounds?

    Not Tony Blair, obviously.

    (I lied. Tony Blair.)

  22. Excuse my ignorance but I never knew Leicester had a cathedral. You can go there for the King Richard III Trail and stand up comedy too.

  23. @ John Goss (13h04)

    “So sorry to be off topic again but related to my NJP article on Shaker Aamer:..”
    (followed by several lines of off-topic guff)

    Can’t you restrain yourself even for one thread? You’re like a bloody dog who has to cock his leg at every lamppost.

  24. Oh good. Mammon gets a look in too.
    Thursday 28 February

    The State We Are In: Mr Micawber and the Challenges of Debt
    A Guild of St Martin Lecture
    Maurice Thompson, Head of UK Operations at Citigroup and Patron of the Guild of St Martin, leads discussion on current banking issues and their effect on Leicestershire.
    Booking essential for non-members. For information or to book places, email Elizabeth Amias

  25. Anyone who considers details of extraordinary rendition and torture to be “guff” is almost certainly on the wrong blog.

  26. @ Mary (09h10 today):

    “Chris Huhne’s downfall is another example of the amazing risks a politican will take. People who choose a career of perpetual uncertainty are liable to behave crazily.Just look at Archer, Aitken, Crossman, Phillips, Bevan…”

    I would tend to agree with that, but some of the examples you give – those of Crossman, Phillips and Bevan – are not pertinent.

    Crossman, Phillips and Bevan sued The Spectator in 1957 for alleging that they had got roaring drunk while attending the congress of the Italian Socialist Party in Venice in the February of that year. They won and were awarded damages. Year later – in the 1970s – it emerged that they had indeed been roaring drunk and that at least one of them had therefore committed perjury at the trial.

    It is, however, an invalid example, because no political career was brought to an inglorious end after the truth came out….if for no other reason than that they were all dead by then.

    A better example might have been the case of that Welsh Secretary (was it Ron Davies?) who had to resign after a “moment of madness” on Hampstead Heath or wherever. Except now I think about it, hasn’t he been rehabilitated?

  27. “guff” – agreed, perhaps not the right word (I was trying to convey the idea that this is somewhat of an obsession for the poster and has been said before a thousand times).

  28. Girl, you thought she was a man, but she was a (chocolate chip) muffin!

  29. @ John Goss

    Thanks for those links, John. That’s a really angry article you’ve written there. Well done! It’s bloody excellent.

  30. Thanks Arbed.

    Habbakuk thanks. Of all the people who comment on here, to have pissed you off has really made my day.

  31. lol @ John Goss 2.33pm

  32. doug scorgie

    5 Feb, 2013 - 3:06 pm

    5 Feb, 2013 – 10:23 am

    “Killing may at present be as trivial to him [Prince Harry] as a video game, but he will know of the mental anguish that service personal experience first-hand, and may well it experience it himself.”

    I’m sorry Giles but this is complete bollocks. How can he know of the mental anguish that service personal experience first-hand? Has he seen any bullet riddled bodies; decapitated women and children; blood soaked streets and buildings? Has he heard the screams of people dying in agony; the wailing of the relatives of the innocent victims bombed by some prat in a helicopter?

    Do you not see that it is all part of elite propaganda?

    Do you think that Harry is a real helicopter pilot?

    When Harry is visiting clubs in Knightsbridge he is surrounded by armed special branch and MI5 bodyguards. Does he not have bodyguards while in Afghanistan?

  33. resident dissident

    5 Feb, 2013 - 3:26 pm

    No, the last English king was George VI, unless you want to start using BNP type definitions for defining nationality. Being permanently resident and committed to a country is enough. Heaven forbid if Craig’s nationalist chums were to start defining who is or isn’t Scottish on such a basis – I wouldn’t rate the chances of a Norfolk boy with Corsican ancestors (this is presumably where the tendency to feuding/omerta comes in) too highly. That said I do tend to agree monarchy is all bollocks just like much nationalism.

  34. “Monarchy is bollocks”
    Hear, hear (but it’s also costing everyone a fortune and is acutely embarrassing into the bargain). Not sure what to do about that, just wish that secret rendition to justify the Civil List expenditure would enter into the public domain/discussion someday soon.

    Loving the ‘a spade is a spade’ attitude, still consistently wonderful.
    Thank you.

  35. Jimmy Giro @9.19

    ‘We did once get rid of the monarchy but it was replaced by utopian proto-socialists’.

    No, unfortunately the monarchy was replaced by Cromwell and his grandees who argued that only land and property owners should rule and have a say in government.

    It was the levellers who were the proto-socialists. Thomas Rainsborough, a former colonel in the parliamentarian army and a leveller, asked why they had fought to depose the monarchy only to see the old law restored in which ordinary people had no voice at all.

    Things have improved slightly – we ‘ordinary people’ have a voice but still don’t have much power over government decisions for which don’t forget they have no mandate.

    (apologies – only just had time to respond to Jimmy Giro’s comment)

  36. I’m thinking of opening a personal “Doug Scorgie” sub-file. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the difficulty I’m likely to have when I try to work out whether to put his posts into the ‘arcane’,’inane’ or ‘insane’ folders.

    Anyway for today the following gems.

    “Does he {ie, Prince Harry} not have bodyguards while in Afghanistan?” (15h06)

    Yes, especially when flying his helicopter on combat missions. Their job is to shoot down any ground-to-air missiles with their pistols.

    Quoting with approval from Jonathan Freedland at 08h26 :

    “As Peter Wright confirmed in his book Spycatcher, {Harold} Wilson was the victim of a protracted, illegal campaign of destabilisation by a rogue element in the security services.”

    Exactly : a rogue element in the security services, not the security services as such.

    And : “We now know it did happen”.

    Errr, well, no, it didn’t happen, actually. No fighting on the street, no troops on the street, no Royal proclamation, no overthrown government, but a general election as per usual.

  37. @ John Goss : if the thought that you’ve pissed me off makes your day, then it sounds as if your days are sad ones.

    Look around you, man, real life is everywhere! La vita e’ bella! Find the song on YouTube and sing along!

  38. I guess Lord Haba Ha will tell us this BBC Documentary “The Plot Against Harold Wilson” doesn’t exist either

    Watch it all the way through but troops on the streets at 1:06 mins in which of course didn’t happen according to Haha Ha.

  39. Have surprised even myself by enjoying following the story. Living as I do in Touraine the history of the Plantagenets has always fascinated a bit – even down to their family name; it is said that the founder of the family, Geoffrey, liked to pick bits of broom (genet) and put them in his hat! Whether true or not it’s rather a pretty story.

    Given the horrifically violent death that he suffered and his ignomonious treatment post-mortem it would seem to be nothing less than just that he be laid to rest with dignity, according to his beliefs … and left in peace.

  40. And we thought the brutal treatment of Ghaddaffi was all down to those savages, when in reality it was learned from our police trainers, who by some fluke of history, must have read it in some medieval manual on how to subdue bastard murderous kings with a poker up their backside.

    Even torture has tradition here, great article John Goss, thanks, that it had such impact on our son of a jester was a bonus.

    Its all royal terminal guff. I’m sure Leicester City council will try their utmost to get a car park re-designated into a museum in record time before the summer tourists are due.

    As for standing up for Harry, the soldier, son of a serving soldier, good on you Giles for pointing out that Craig’s thread here has made such a pertinent point about Royalty.

  41. @ Anon (16h01) :

    Troops man “Green Goddesses” during the firemens strike, but unfortunately no coup d’état.

    Troops ring Heathrow during teror plot scare, but still no coup d’état

    Troops on the streets also during the 2012 Olympics, dear boy, but STILL no coup d’état, so sorry to have spoiled the plot.

    ( a “rogue element” in the security services, a “rogue element”. Got it? A “rogue element”.)

    Shall I stay with the military and address you in the same way as Captain Mainwaring used to address the young lad…?

  42. doug scorgie

    5 Feb, 2013 - 4:15 pm


    I post to you on this thread because you seem to be avoiding answering a question I asked you on the previous thread.

    4 Feb, 2013 – 9:45 pm
    @ Clark and Doug Scorgie : of course they do! Where have you been for the last 20 years – hibernating?? Don’t you read political memoirs and diaries???

    I replied:
    No I don’t, but please direct me to those that refer specifically to the use of behavioural psychologists and I will.

    Why have you not directed me (and others) to the political memoirs and diaries you refer to? Is it because you don’t know of any and you just made it up?

    I ask again direct me to the books you refer to.

    I call your bluff.

  43. Hahha,

    You’ve watched the 90 min documentary already (in just a few minutes) and reached a conclusion. Your skills truly astound me. Somehow I doubt you’ve watched it before.

    So it’s normal for the British army to take to the streets (and it wasn’t just Heathrow – that was just the headliner) without informing the government? Get real.

  44. HaHah,

    Let’s just assume for a moment that all the plotting was by “rogue elements” who somehow had the power to occupy Heathrow Airport with tanks and go unpunished.

    Can you explain to me how you have satisfied yourself that “rogue elements” are not in such positions of high power and pulling levers behind the scenes even today?

    Do you believe that “rogue elemnts” suddenly went out of fashion? I can’t fathom why you happily accept the existence of “rogues” in the 1970s but not in the 21st century.

  45. There goes your knighthood Craig. I’m a conditional republican myself but if there has to be a monarch, he might as well be an Aussie.

  46. @ Anon

    1/. No, I haven’t watched the documentary. But you know, this so-called “coup” is hardly breaking news – it’s been talked and written about for quite a few years.

    2/. If there was a coup attempt, why didn’t the military go to Downing Street, Westminster, Whitehall, the BBC?

  47. @ anyone who’s interested : my reply to Doug Scorgie is on the previous thread to which he refers.

  48. Re monarchy :

    There are a few republicans around, I see. Which justifies the following (on-topic) questions:

    1/. do you believe that a Head of State (largely ceremonial as in the UK, Scandinavia, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, etc) is necessary or desirable?

    2/. if so, how should he or she be chosen?

  49. An Iraqi child asks Tony Blair and George Bush: Are you happy now?
    Published on 3 Feb 2013

    An Iraqi Child. Written by Heathcote Williams. Narration and montage by Alan Cox. “Who did this to me?” asks an Iraqi child, drawing a picture of bombers, despite his arm and fingers having been amputated. “Why didn’t they think of the people below, when they sent their cruel planes? … Are they happy now?”

    Such a brilliant poet and the video and the narration are excellent too.

    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair
    George Walker Bush
    Alastair John Campbell

  50. answer 1/. No
    2/. inconsequential

    Its snowing massive flakes
    as big as dinner plates

  51. HaHa,

    If you read accounts by others around at the time I think you will find the security services did indeed arrive at other places of interest. Tanks weren’t needed at the BBC. John Simpson further claimed that plotters included major media owners etc. Wilson himself believed very senior figures at the BBC were in on the plot.

    But seriously if you read Simpson’s books you’d realise exactly why the State does not need tanks to control the BBC. His book’s are a lot more revealing than his broadcasts.

  52. HaHa,

    Picture yourself in the BBC Newsrooms as reports of tanks at Heathrow start to pour in. Political correspondents can’t get anything out of the government other than shock. What do they broadcast? What did they broadcast? Protocols dear boy.

  53. @ Anon – OK, forget the BBC for the sake of progressing. A coup d’état normally seeks to take over the organs of government. These “accounts by others around zt the time” – who are these others and which places did they mention? Were Downing Street, Westminster and Whitehall mentioned?
    BTW – you talk about the security services – was that a slip for the military? I thought the other posters were talking about a miltary coup?

  54. @ Nevermind : if you believe that a Head of State is neither necessary nor desirable, who do you think should represent the state? Eg (but this list is not exhaustive) : in whose name should legislation be enacted, and by whom? Who represents the British state (not the government) vis-à-vis the outside world? Who interacts with other Heads of State? Who arbitrates or facilitates the political process say in cases when the issue of one of forming a goverment?

  55. Off topic. Sorry. Angry.

    Hand wringing by some MPs here on this sad case. What an indictment of the pocket pols we have representing us. Burstow who, after becoming an MP, became a junior minister responsible for care services. He assisted Lansley in the destruction of the NHS as we know it. Blunt voted for their Health and Social Act 2012. Look at the Safeguarding outfit packed with jobsworths who spend their time going from meeting to meeting.

    Did nobody think to ask what was going to happen to the clients (as they are referred to) after the Border Agency heavies’ visit which probably involved rounding up some very badly paid illegal immigrants?

    Poor old lady. If elderly care still remained in local authority hands and had not the carers in this case been provided by a private agency, ie outsourced to a for-profit private outfit, she would still be alive. She should have been receiving care in a well run nursing home.

    Surrey woman left without care dies in hospital

  56. Mary at 5.28

    It is a touching video. I wrote on the same theme when the allied forces started bombing Iraq.

    “Tony’s child
    (Ali Ismail Abbas)
    Tony’s child is 12 years old, like any kid that’s bad,
    he used to do mischievous things, he’d taunt his mum and dad.
    He does not do that any more and even if he did
    he could not hurt his parents, for they’re already dead.
    Tony’s child is not quite dead instead he lies all day in bed.

    He lies all day in bed and cries, he knows how bad
    he was. He just wants to apologise, say sorry mum and dad.
    But it’s too late, he had his chance before the two were gone,
    and now they’re gone, he lingers on,
    he lies all day in bed and cries, and still cries on.

    Tony’s child liked volleyball but now he has no arms,
    he cannot show the skills he learnt, all those magic charms.
    No arms to touch, to love, to feel, he has no arms to kill,
    it might be better if he’d died and who knows perhaps he will;
    he lies all day in bed and cries for Tony’s child is very ill.

    The bomb that killed his family and took his arms away,
    scorched his growing torso, and God I only pray
    this kind of thing will soon become a feature of the past
    when men were seen as savages who used to maim and blast
    little children with their bombs – and Tony’s child’s the last.”

    Ali Ismail Abbas survived though at the time it was touch and go whether he would. Now an adult his life was changed forever. I have not, and cannot, forgive Tony Blair for what he did to Ali Ismail and all the other innocent children killed and maimed in our conflicts.

  57. Last post before I go out for dinner and take in a movie. And at the risk of making some of you miserable, it’s about good news!

    David Cameron and his govt. get a lot of stick on this blog. So I’m sure others here will want to join me in expressing pleasure and admiration for the way in which he pioneered and saw through to a successful conclusion the bill giving the freedom to gays and lesbians to marry. He showed condsiderable courage, determination and humanity and his action (and that of Parliament for voting through the bill)deserves recognition.

    I’m sure I speak for all who regularly post here, all of whom are, I’m sure, very much for gay and lesbian rights.

    So let’s be hearing you!

  58. Jim McDonald

    5 Feb, 2013 - 7:51 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie
    5 Feb, 2013 – 8:36 am
    I know it’s fiction but have you ever seen ” A very British Coup’ with Ray McAnally from the eighties? ….. Says it all….. You can get some of it on youtube from 4on demand

  59. doug scorgie

    5 Feb, 2013 - 9:15 pm

    5 Feb, 2013 – 3:43 pm

    You’re struggling a bit now I see.

    If you want to de-construct what I have to say do it in a logical manner and include all the relevant points.

    You seem to be under the impression that our male heirs to the throne are intellectually robust enough to become helicopter pilots; Prince William, Prince Andrew, Prince Harry and the most ridiculous one; Prince Charles.

    You’re having a laugh surely.

    Prince Charles for example scraped through with two A levels, History and French: grades B and C. On the basis of these exemplary qualifications he secured a place at Cambridge University.

    Then he became (wait for it…) a helicopter pilot.

    Do you not recognize bullshit when you see it?

    The coup d’ etat didn’t take place, Harold Wilson resigned unexpectedly, but the conspiracy to action the coup did take place and it is on public record.

    You are tiresome Habbabkuk.

  60. Some showboating coming up soon from Obama. Note Palestine is not mentioned in this BBC report. They do include the term Palestinian Authority but we know who and what they represent, certainly not the Palestinian people themselves under the Israeli heel.

    5 February 2013 Last updated at 20:53
    Obama to make first visit to Israel as president

    The words Occupied and Occupation do not feature.

  61. doug scorgie

    5 Feb, 2013 - 9:24 pm

    5 Feb, 2013 – 7:45 pm

    “Last post before I go out for dinner and take in a movie”

    On your own again?

  62. doug scorgie

    5 Feb, 2013 - 9:32 pm

    Jim McDonald
    5 Feb, 2013 – 7:51 pm

    “I know it’s fiction but have you ever seen ” A very British Coup’ with Ray McAnally from the eighties.”

    Yes Jim I have read it and seen it; it is food for thought.

  63. Whilst the gay marriage debate and vote (where more Tories voted against that those who voted for) was happening, Agent Cameron was biding his time with Biden. He has has such a busy time lately – Algeria, Libya, Liberia, meeting at Chequers and today Biden. Gosh, what a tyro!

    ‘Britain, Afghanistan and Pakistan have rubber-stamped the opening of an official office for the Taleban that will form a contact point for negotiations with the militant network.

    After meeting in Chequers, President Karzai of Afghanistan, President Zardari of Pakistan and David Cameron backed the opening of the office in Qatar in a move that No 10 described as a necessary measure to bring peace to Afghanistan by the summer.

    However, political analysts warned that such a goal was unduly ambitious, given that there were no representatives from either the US or the Taleban at yesterday’s meeting.

    The faltering Afghan peace…. LOL

    Sorry that’s all I can copy without giving some shekels to Murdoch.

  64. Q. Isn’t ‘going to take in a movie’ a very American way of saying one is going to see a film?

  65. Monarchy isn’t just bollocks, it’s a confidence trick by frauds. The Queen has personally claimed and received eight million euros in farming subsidies since 2000, and all the other “royals” have had large sums also. Mr Charles Windsor makes huge profits from his estates, claims vast EU subsidies for his estates, sets all the running of the estates against tax, pays an artificially low tax rate agreed with the government, then on top of that lives an exorbitant lifestyle travelling by private jet and commuting between palaces all paid for out of the civil list. All this while benefits for the poor and the sick are slashed, driving them into poverty while calling them scroungers. I’m not into revolution, but I am into prosecuting fraudulent Windsors under the rule of law. The words “God save the Queen” literally mean “Imaginary Friend protect our Confidence Trickster from prosecution”.

  66. The No-Fly list has been increasingly used on American citizens while they’re out of the country, effectively exiling them

    ACLU estimated the list to have grown to over 1,000,000 names and to be continually expanding

  67. doug scorgie

    5 Feb, 2013 - 10:25 pm

    5 Feb, 2013 – 5:18 pm

    @ anyone who’s interested : my reply to Doug Scorgie is on the previous thread to which he refers.

    – why should I direct you towards works which you proudly claim not to read? And since when have you lot ever told me where your sources are when I’ve asked? Get reading yourself, and “seek and ye shall find”.

    Habbabkuk: what a pathetic answer.

    You have never, as far as I know, asked for sources from posters here. They are usually provided as a matter of course.

    You are the one that fails to provide sources for the bullshit you peddle here.

    I repeat; which books can you direct me to that confirm political parties have been using behavioural psychologists to sell their policies for (as you say) the last 20 years?

    You have no answer do you?

  68. Doug (21h15) – what on earth are you rabbiting on about?

    A levels, Prince Charles becoming a helicopter pilot, intellectual robustness, no coup d’état but a conspiracy…the mind boggles.

    And there I was, thinking you’d just been venting about Killer Prince Harry!

    Are you tired and emotional this evening?

  69. How nice.

    Hope it doesn’t get too warm for them there while we shiver and the food banks proliferate.

    This is their friend who loans them his villa. What a waste of a seven year medical training.

    Mark Cecil Jabre Capital Partners
    Mark Cecil is a founding partner at Jabre Capital Partners, a $5 billion investment manager based in Geneva.
    Mark began his career in finance in 1986 working alongside Philippe Jabre at BAii (London) a subsidiary of BNP Paribas. In 1997 he moved with Philippe to GLG Partners and in 2007 moved to help establish Jabre Capital Partners.
    Mark qualified as a medical doctor from St Thomas’ Hospital Medical School in 1982 and was awarded an MBA from Insead Business School, Fontainebleau, in 1985.

    Harrow not Eton this time.

  70. In 1992 the present monarch once passed by me, so close I could have reached out and touched the very royal train itself. Entirely alone on a drafty westbound platform at Paisley Gilmour St. Station I stood up in anticipation as I mistakenly thought it was the whatever o-clock to Gourock drawing in. This apparition in brown, with curtained windows glided up to the platform and inexplicably stopped there for at least a minute before moving off, carrying on to its eventual destination, which I later guessed was Ferguson’s Shipyard at Port Glasgow, alongside which a temporary wooden platform had sprung up for the benighted one to alight. In a republican show of dissent, I resumed my recumbent pose on my seat, and purposefully looked up the line, nonchalantly ignoring this monstrosity before me, feigning complete ignorance or indifference, unaware even if a curious queen might have parted the curtains a crack and fixed a beady eye on one of her handsome young subjects approvingly.

    She’s so down to earth really, riding on trains and everything.

  71. Habby is back carrying his kebab and a bottle of Buckfast, hey, he’s here to stay, be nice to him.

    We decide who is negotiating with Brussels and we’ll negotiate with Brussels a long time before we take notice of nuclear armed rogue’s in the ME.

    Neo colonial mindset full of torture, rape and carnage is just not good enough any more for the British public, so, who do you think agrees with your anachronistic phlegms and how long do you think before people realise that they are now being playe off against each other, to divert the heat from the scum, currently making this country their chosen fraud base and those who feed on their immense fraudulent riches.

    But then, you’ve never been real, sporned by a migrating conjurer, your wondrous life passes by reality like the tube passes Bank station.

  72. @ Nevermind (23h23)

    did you mean “spawned” rather than “sporned”?

  73. Attila the Hun’s grave is still to be found. Legends say with a coffin of gold and silver…

  74. “Look around you, man, real life is everywhere! La vita e’ bella! Find the song on YouTube and sing along!”

    Only Zionism mentality throws that little string into the camp – as a last resort.

    Beautiful Mary – Bravo Heathcote! Some Iraqi children’s pictures can be seen here: –

  75. @ Mark Golding – well, it is. In the real world that is. Unless you’re determined to see only the evil and the ugly.

    That’s why I often think that Craig Murray doesn’t deserve you lot (I mean a good nmuber of the regular posters) : I get the impression that although a severe critic of many aspects of life he still enjoys it, and enjoys it a lot.

    And he’s not blinded by hate either. Look at Mark Golding’s post above : to say that (real)life is good is to have a “Zionist mentality” and to be “a last resort””. It’s just pathetic.

  76. BTW, I note the big silence re. the gay and lesbian marriage bill which was voted yesterday. A further step towards equality, which should be welcomed – loudly – by the eminences on this blog. Where’s Mary with her links? Nevermind? Doug Scorgie? Villager? Komodo? I say : three cheers for David Cameron on this one!

  77. Cryptonym Now in my seventh decade I am proud to say that I have been in the presence of Mrs Windsor or any of her brood nor have I touched the hems of any of their garments! :)

    Nevermind. Perhaps we will get a review of the ‘movie’ later – Ms Bigelow’s Zero Dark Thirty and the Navy Seals or maybe Mr Affleck’s CIA thriller Argo.

    Ref incinerators, Surrey CC are rowing back on the design of the one given planning permission in Shepperton.

  78. Mary : good to see you’re up. How about a word of congratulation for Mr Cameron then? You are in favour of gay marriage, I trust?

  79. Monsieur Hollande seems to think he has had hundreds of ‘Islamist militants’ killed in Mali. Were they all wearing labels saying ‘I am an Islamist militant’ or were many of the dead just ordinary men, women and children and how many have you had wounded Monsieur Hollande?

    There are nine mentions each of the words ‘Islamist’ and ‘militant’ in this propaganda report.

    France: Hundreds of Islamist militants killed in Mali

    PS Habbabkuk I am always up before you just as I am up to your antics here.

  80. @Habba.

    Regarding Gay marriage, for most here is irrelevant.

    The social equalitys more concerning are greed and laziness, and the lack of Christian virrues for example “do unto others.”.

    But hey what are Christion valuea now.
    Ask Blair and Bush.

    Oh they are nor really in charge of their will.

  81. Habitual Babbling again? Are you still suffering from the effects of your Mcdonalds burger then? And what sort of movie did you “take-in”?

  82. Coucou, for awhile you had me believing you were reforming but, you are confirming that most men, except those with supple minds are incapable of changing. As a professedly good Catholic we know what your views on the subject are. Lets just expose you as a vacant, pathological, compulsive obsessive impostor.

  83. doug scorgie

    6 Feb, 2013 - 10:08 am

    6 Feb, 2013 – 8:38 am

    It is not Mr. Cameron that is to be congratulated but firstly the Labour party then the LibDems and belatedly the coalition. But it is the House of Commons that is to be congratulated for approving the Bill.

    During the 2010 leadership election of the Labour Party, all candidates said they were in favour of same-sex marriage.

    On 21 September 2010, the Liberal Democrats publicly endorsed same-sex marriage by approving a motion called “Equal Marriage in the United Kingdom” at a conference in Liverpool .

    The Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government initiated a consultation in 2011 on whether to allow both religious ceremonies and civil marriage for same-sex couples,[3] and said it would introduce a same-sex civil marriage bill [note civil marriage] by the next general election.

    In 2012, the coalition government announced its support for same-sex marriages to be conducted in a place of worship, provided the religious body approved.

    PS: Have you come up with those books I asked about?

  84. @ Doug Scorgie : Yes, exactly, it was the Coalition, led by David Cameron, which introduced the bill.

    You can’t bring yourself to say a good word about him, can you. You old misery!

    @ Mary : I think that Resident Dissident said all that needs to be said about you. Dishes it out by the bucketfull, but very thin-skinned when it comes to taking it.

  85. John Goss. I did acknowledge your beautiful and moving poem about Ali Abbas above but put it on the previous thread by mistake. Warning the first link opens with that shocking photo of Ali’s charred arms and burnt torso.

  86. Habitual Babbler Kuku

    Since you didn’t respond to my remarks above i take it that your Big Silence confirms that you stand exposed “as a vacant, pathological, compulsive obsessive impostor.”

    Not a good idea to wear your religion on your sleeve.

    As for Mary, i see you have your new-found-friend Res Diss that you are trying to instigate. Why do you insist on behaving like a dolt?

    its this compulsive obsessive thing you have isn’t it? Confession time, good catholic?

  87. H 10.18am and there’s another message here which the Beatles once sang

  88. Why do the BBC put the word abuse in inverted commas? And when is anybody in this or any of the other inquiries going to go on trial ?

    6 February 2013

    Two arrests in 1980s guest house ‘abuse’ inquiry
    Police have made a fresh appeal for information about the allegations

    Police investigating allegations of child abuse at a south-west London guest house in the early 1980s have arrested two men.

    The Operation Fernbridge inquiry is looking at claims that senior political figures and others sexually abused boys at the Elm Guest House in Barnes.

    Officers held a 66-year-old in Norfolk and a 70-year-old in East Sussex, the first arrests in the investigation.

    Police began the probe after receiving information from Labour MP Tom Watson.

    Scotland Yard said the allegations are not connected with current residents of the address.

    It is also investigating links between the guest house and a nearby children’s care-home.

    Commander Peter Spindler, head of the Metropolitan Police’s Specialist Crime Investigations unit, said the “complex multi-agency investigation” was supported by the NSPCC charity, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre and Richmond Social Services.

    He said anyone affected by, or has information about, activity in the early 1980s at the Elm Guest House, or the Grafton Close care home in Barnes, should contact the NSPCC or police.

  89. Habitual Babbler,

    Still waiting for an answer to my post above:

    “Coucou, for awhile you had me believing you were reforming but, you are confirming that most men, except those with supple minds are incapable of changing. As a professedly good Catholic we know what your views on the subject are. Lets just expose you as a vacant, pathological, compulsive obsessive impostor.”

  90. These Norfolk MP’s voted against the majority of those party politicians.

    Richard Bacon, South Norfolk MP

    Therese Coffey, Suffolk Coastal MP

    Peter Aldous, Waveney MP

    Henry Bellingham, North West Norfolk

    George Freeman, Mid Norfolk MP

    That said, marriage is inconvenient to those partners who do not work and are older.
    Whilst a single person, not in pensionable age yet, but over 60, will be eligible for pension credits, winter fuel allowance, help with their electricity bills and free bus travel, those who are married of the same age and with a spouse still working will get nothing whatsoever.

    I have yet to find out the benefits of the bill, bar the hot air that is heating the lower parts of the House, the gallery, were interested members of the public are directed to, is much colder.

  91. doug scorgie

    6 Feb, 2013 - 11:56 am

    Israel wants EU terror tag for Hezbollah

    US/Israel shenanigans ?

    New York Times:

    “With help from the United States and Israel, investigators here broke the case — and linked it to Hezbollah — using a tip from a secret source and some old-fashioned detective work, tracing the printer that had produced two forged licenses back to Lebanon.

    “On Tuesday, Bulgaria’s interior minister, Tsvetan Tsvetanov, announced that two of the people behind the July 18 bombing, which killed five Israeli tourists, a Bulgarian bus driver and the bomber, were believed to be members of the military wing of Hezbollah.

    “We have followed their entire activities in Australia and Canada, so we have information about financing and their membership in Hezbollah,” Mr. Tsvetanov said at a news conference.

    “Hezbollah has denied responsibility for the bombing. “

    Netanyahu says:

    “This is yet a further corroboration of what we have already known, that Hezbollah and its Iranian patrons are orchestrating a worldwide campaign of terror that is spanning countries and continents.”

    From recent events regarding Syria and Lebanon and the fact everyone knows Israel wants another Lebanon war, after their defeat at the hands of Hezbollah in 2006. It seems likely that the timing of the results of the Bulgarian investigation (carried out by Israel and the US) and the demand by Netanyahu for the world to declare Hezbollah a “terrorist entity” are linked and help manufacture a case for an upcoming attack on Lebanon.

  92. Mary at 10.22 am. Thanks for your kind comment and the link to David Halpin’s condemnation of Tony Blair for what he did to Ali Abbas and so many other children. How does Blair sleep at night?

  93. In case anyone is interested in last night’s vote, which like microchips for dogs, is a great diversion for Agent Cameron and his cohort to take our attention off his major crimes in Mali and Syria, let alone the paedophilia enquiries which are going nowhere and the continuing crimes of the bankers who dress up as armed highwaymen.

  94. “In case anyone is interested in last night’s vote, which like microchips for dogs, is a great diversion for Agent Cameron and his cohort to take our attention off his major crimes in Mali and Syria, let alone the paedophilia enquiries which are going nowhere and the continuing crimes of the bankers who dress up as armed highwaymen.”

    Exactly Habbabkuk’s not so subtle agenda.

    @John Goss, I also add my thanks & appreciation for your moving poem.

  95. Blackadder………

    “Nice to see that today’s Prince Harry retains the tradition of remorseless homicide though.” and bastardry (?)

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    Simple! Just skip any thread by or addressed to Habbabkuk.
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  97. בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה – my guidance is towards Syria; she cannot capitulate to the terrorists; doing so would render another 100yrs dark age of elitist imperium. I have revealed at some risk a devious game plan to blitz Syria in the preceding thread as a precursor to Iran’s holocaust by Zionism delusion – באין תחבולות יפול עם, ותשועה ברוב יועץ.

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