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7,516 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued

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  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    You make a good point re what we have been allowed to believe. Having said that I think that there may be some info we can glean by pulling together the original source(s) such as Le Savoyard. I shall have a go over the next few days.

    My general view has been that SM was targetted for a reason not directly connected with CS. This is probably why the gendarmes have not resolved the case.

    They investigated CS rather than SM.

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    I have estimated the time for SM to cycle from Grignon to the centre of Chevaline to be 1h40 which is approx 40 minutes longer than from Ugine.

    I am still looking for the reference (prob from EM) stating the time that both SM and WBM had been out cycling for.

    There is a more direct route over the mountains but this would be slower going.

    If the partner (or even ex-partner) of a jupin managed to gain access to her message stream, he might be peeved to find out that SM was planning to drop by or meet up with her. However it might present him with an opportunity…

    The extra lead time over simply spotting SM on the cycletrack would reduce time and location constraints and make identifying him difficult.

  • michael norton

    What I have been suggesting is that Ms.Schutz and Mr. Mollier have been under Surveillance
    and that their movements have been tracked from the adjacent property of
    Volunteer firefighters the Grand Arc Grignon.

    Let’s just say we go with what the Authorities would like us to understand, which I think is that Ms.Schutz was in the family business in Grignon and that the father of her child was in their shared home, perhaps in Ugine, that there was a phone call from Sylvain to Ms. Schutz, saying he needed to urgently go out for a cycle ride and she needed to curtail her business in Grignon and return home to take over parental supervision.
    If their phones were being tracked and or surveillance devices had been secreted in the chemist shop/flat, the “listeners” in the adjact building could then send a message that Sylvain was about to depart from their property ( perhaps in Ugine) and cycle to Doussard.

    If the DGSE were keeping Ms.Schutz/Sylvain under scutiny, this is how it would be done.

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    From Parismatch 5th Sept 2015

    SM … around 14:40 set off on the road to Annecy …

    Assuming this is correct, the timing is tighter than I thought. The upshot is that there is no way that SM rode from Grignon.

    • michael norton

      “A French cyclist who was shot dead alongside a British family in a massacre in the Alps may have been the “main target” of the massacre, police have suggested.”
      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9547495/French-police-cyclist-may-have-been-target-of-Annecy-slaughter.html

      Lt Colonel Benedict Vinnemann, who is leading the police inquiry, revealed he was considering the possibility Sylvain Mollier, the cyclist, was the real target. He was buried yesterday.

      It had previously been suggested that Mr Mollier was killed because he had interrupted the killing of Saad al-Hilli, his wife and mother-in-law by a hitman.

      But Lt Col Vinneman said: “Was the al-Hilli family the main target? Was it not the cyclist? Only ongoing work on the scene can answer this question clearly. “We’re talking about someone whom everybody says was a gentleman, but who’s to say he did not lead a double life?” Brian Paddick, the former Metropolitan Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner, said that unless there was clear evidence that ruled out the other theories, it was “dangerous” to switch the focus of the investigation to this country.

      “It smacked to me of more of a political decision than a professional police one,” he said.

      “It was as if they did not want the reputation of France, and particularly this picturesque tourist spot, damaged by the suggestion that this could be anything to do with the French police or people in that area.”

      French police were yesterday accused of “playing politics” over the Alps massacre by asserting that the origins of the case lie in the UK.

      Good In Parts,
      why after almost seven years have the French Authorities not spelt out the movements of Ms. Schutz and Mr.Mollier in the hours before the Massacre?

      • michael norton

        Good In Parts,
        I do not know the sequence of events,
        as to where Claire Schutz was, when she had a phone call from Sylvain Mollier, claiming he had to go out for a bike ride, urgently.
        I do not know where Sylvain Mollier was, when he allegedly made that call.

        As far as I know, the Authorities in France have been unclear on these matters.

        All I am guessing, is that they were under surveillance, before these dramatic events played out.

        We have been allowed to think, that Ms. Schutz was hard at work in her family chemist shop in Grignon.

        If that was actually the case, listening devices connected to the Fire Fighters unit on the same plot of land, could have led to Sylvain being tracked, from the start of his last cycle ride, he did not have to be in the same property as Ms. Schutz when that happened.

        We have always been allowed to assume that she drove to him, she took control of the infant and he was released for his ride but this may not have been what happened.

        For example, he may have been visiting a relative his or hers, when he was tipped off that it was time to go off for his clandestine meeting, in which case the relative could have rung Claire and Sylvain was already gone by the time she got to the infant.

        In fact, we actually know bugger all.
        The French Authorities are still tight lipped after seven years, it is almost as if they do not want the help of the public in tracking down the murderous truth.

        • michael norton

          Perhaps the questions that should be asked,
          who contacted Sylvain Mollier on that day on fifth of September 2012 and “requested” he go out on his bike for the clandestine meeting?
          Was Sylvain some sort of “agent” perhaps working for the government of France, and his normal employment in the Nuclear Fuel company in Ugine was little more than a skeleton job.
          His real job was as an agent.
          The same could be surmised of William Brett Martin,
          we guess he was doing work for MI6.

    • michael norton

      Good in Parts,
      “SM … around 14:40 set off on the road to Annecy …
      Assuming this is correct, the timing is tighter than I thought. The upshot is that there is no way that SM rode from Grignon.”

      Not necessarily.

      I’#ll explain.

      let’s say we imagine that Ms. Schutz is hard at work in her family business in Grignon and her partner is in another building, perhaps in Ugine, with their baby son.
      Sylvain has a mystery communication and needs to go out on a clandestine cycle ride.
      He straps the baby into the baby seat in his car, his cycle is strapped on to his cycle carrier, then he drives to the chemist shop in Grignon. Sylvain hands the infant over to his partner and gives her an explanation of what he is about to get involved in.
      Then Sylvain drives off in his car, with his cycle on the cycle carrier to a place where he discretely parks and unloads the bike and rides to Le Martinet.

      This he thinks will shield him from the eyes and ears ill- dooers.

      However their movements plans are being monitored from the nearby Fire station.

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    If someone requested SM come out for a clandestine meeting, that someone was a jupin (or someone impersonating a jupin) in my opinion.

    However you may be on the right track with some kind of ‘leak’ from CS’s place of work.

    • michael norton

      I have tried to look up what a jupin is, nothing matches what I imagine is your meaning.
      I am guessing you mean some type of illicit relationship with a female

  • michael norton

    Haute-Savoie: a man arrested with old weapons in the Chevaline area, Thursday, May 4, 2017
    A South African man was held with old guns in Chevaline.

    According to Le Parisien, the man arrested is believed to be a South African national, an enthusiast of old weapons such as the Luger P0 6 pistol used in the quadruple murder of Chevaline. The suspect would have had to deal with the law. His arrest was taken into custody and is said to be part of a national investigation by Customs. Several other people were reportedly arrested in other French departments in connection with the same case.
    https://www.translatetheweb.com/?from=&to=en&ref=SERP&refd=www.bing.com&dl=en&rr=UC&a=https%3a%2f%2ffr.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fTuerie_de_Chevaline

  • Good In Parts

    For anyone who has not been following the progress of this case recently, I suggest you review the timeline in a previous post of mine dated January 13, 2019 at 15:49 which can be found on page 222.

  • michael norton

    A South African national was arrested on Thursday morning between Doussard and Chevaline. He is alleged to have been involved in a case of trafficking in old weapons. “There is no connection to the quadruple murder of Chevaline in 2012,” Annecy’s prosecutor said. Ancient weapons, Chevaline… immediately the speculations went well. As soon as the announcement on Thursday of the arrest of a man in this area at the end of Lake Annecy, the spectre of the quadruple murder resurfaced. “There is no connection to the Killing of Chevaline,”Annecy’s prosecutor said late in the day. While Véronique Denizot confirmed the arrest of a man between Doussard and Chevaline and acknowledged that thorough checks will be carried out, for security reasons, she said above all that, apart from “geographical proximity, there was no link both cases”.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/27/french-ex-spy-suspected-of-congo-brazzaville-plot-shot-dead-in-alps

    There does seem to be more than one link to Africa, in the area, also numerous people seem to be buying or selling old Luger weapons.
    As far as we know Eric Devouassoux was exonerated of arms trafficing, even though he has fifty weapons.

    According to Le Parisien, the man arrested is believed to be a South African national, an enthusiast of old weapons such as
    the Luger P0 6 pistol used in the quadruple murder of Chevaline.
    The suspect would have had to deal with the law. His arrest was taken into custody and is said to be part of a national investigation by Customs. Several other people were reportedly arrested in other French departments in connection with the same case.

  • michael norton

    Good in Parts, you keep mentioning that Sylvain goes out to meet a jupin.
    Try as I might I cannot discover what it is you suggest.

    Someone with Jupiter like attributes – like Macron?
    A garment or garment maker?

    Are you saying that Sylvain goes off on a cycle ride up Le Martinet for a “meeting” with a woman?

    If this is your implication
    how would he square that with Ms.Schutz?

  • Good In Parts

    Derniere proprietere

    The french seem fixated on tracing the provenance of the Luger. They also seem over-eager to blame the Swiss for their own lack of progress.

    Upthread I rather unkindly described this nonsense as ‘displacement activity’ given the low likelyhood that it would actually lead to the killer.

    Now I have some more constructive suggestions that may cut down the search-space.

    The Model 29 came in at least two sub-models that were visually distinct and may have distinguishable extractor or barrel broaching marks given the differences in the barrel.

    However the best bet, in my view, would be to focus on the actual pieces of the weapon that I think they have, i.e. the red composite grip fragments.

    It should be possible to gain the assistance of the Swiss, museums and gun collectors in order to take small samples from the inside of grips and submit them to compositional and isotopic analysis.

    The hardened rubber material used likely has significant batch-to-batch variation. Pinning it down to a particular batch and correlating this to particular years and/or blocks of serial numbers could be useful.

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    It may be slang but I took it from a french source describing SM (cannot remember where) which auto translated as ‘skirt-chaser’.

    • michael norton

      Good In Parts
      I find it almost unbelievable, that Sylvain was chasing skirt up Le Martinet on that day.
      I am happy to believe he was very interested in women.
      Claire Schutz was his partner, they lived together and had a young son together, a baby.
      Claire Schutz worked for the family business, her uncle, mother, father and brother, mostly leaving it to run it herself.
      At this time, since he took parental leave from his work in the nuclear fuel factory, Claire had become the main bread winner.

      We have been allowed to think than on fifth of September 2012 Claire was busy at work in her chemist shop in Grignon.
      We have been allowed to think that Sylvain rang Claire to tell her that he had to urgently go out for a cycle ride.

      This would seem to be quite unreasonable and would need a lot of explanation from Sylvain to Claire, to get her to abandon her business, perhaps having to shut her chemist shop, something she would be loathe to do, unless it was an emergency?

          • michael norton

            If Sylvain thought the Landline was bugged in the chemist shop, he may have purchased a couple of burner phones.
            Giving one to Claire and keeping one for himself.
            If he did indeed call her on 05/09/2012 on the burner, she may have recorded one of his last messages.
            She would have been expected to hand the burner to the investigating officer.
            The investigation would be able to determine the exact time of that call and from where he made that call.
            They would also be able to determine if they had a further phone chat.

            After Sylvain was shot multiple times, we must assume that his burner was recovered by the police, as we have been told that he was making/recieving a call, moments before he reached Le Martinet.

  • Good In Parts

    Observation or ‘leak’ ?

    I have tended to think that SM was observed heading towards the combe but there could have been a ‘leak’ of his intentions.

    The original source could be SM, CS or someone else in or around the pharmacy that lunchtime. There was plenty of time from SM’s call to CS at approx 12 noon for this to occur.

    I suspect a ‘covert’ channel if only because the ‘overt’ channels must surely have been checked by the gendarmes by now.

  • Good In Parts

    The overnight hikers.

    Also known as PB and his two un-named compagnions. Could they have been the true targets?

    If they had not been waylaid by WBM, they would have arrived at le Martinet parking only six minutes after the shooting started.

  • Good In Parts

    Exit via Giez?

    I suspect that the killer made his escape via Giez, probably using the Chemin du Chateau.

    There would have been golfers and perhaps groundsmen in the area. Maybe CCTV too.

    Golfers would be particularly useful given that they fill in and submit their little cards. One would hope that les gendarmes have examined the area on all of the satellite imagery that they collected from ‘every satellite company in europe’, as stated by EM (source GQ magazine).

  • Good In Parts

    Two riders were approaching.

    I think that the killer was one of the two mobylette riders seen by CA heading up towards the combe. Probably the first one and certainly not the TBR.

    I suspect that it could have been a larger moto, say a supermoto type, rather than a true mobylette. Seen from the side by CA they could appear to have similar ride heights.

  • Good In Parts

    Two riders were approaching.

    I think that the killer was one of the two mobylette riders seen by CA heading up towards the combe. Probably the first one and certainly not the TBR.

    I suspect that it could have been a larger moto, say a supermoto type, rather than a true mobylette. Seen from the side by CA they could appear to have similar ride heights.

    • michael norton

      Seven years today.

      The shootist drives a vehicle to a nearby village and parks.
      Then he goes for a walk.
      One or two motorcycles turn up, he garbs up.
      He arrives at Le Martinet on the back of a motorcycle, perhaps two motorcycles and three or four people, to add to the distraction.
      The shootist takes off his motorcycle garb/helmet, takes weapons/ammo out of motorcycle topbox/panniers, stuffs in his motorcycle garb/helmet, then hides in the gulley.
      The motorcycle/s clear off.
      Then the victims arrive, the massacre takes place.
      The shootist descends silently on foot, straight down the hill, through the forest.
      At the village he calmly gets in his vehicle and drives off in a different direction , never to be seen again.

  • Good In Parts

    Did the killer dump the Luger as he departed?

    If so where?

    Gendarmes were pictured searching under bridges and culverts for the gun. This always struck me as bizarre, given it would quicker and easier to simply fling the weapon into a deep area of the Ire where running water would degrade trace evidence. It could even have been done from the crime scene itself.

    I cannot find any media report of the gendarmes bothering to search the whole length of the Ire.

    • michael norton

      Good question.
      I would guess the killers most likely option would be to keep the weapon with him for almost all of his scramble down through the forest ( incase someone shoots at him) then buries the weapon just before he leaves the forest, then leaves the forest without a weapon, walks calmly to his car and moderately drives off.

      If this is right, the weapon my still be hidden in the forest.
      Unless he was remarkably skilled, he would have left indications of his route down the hill,
      he would have descended quickly, as wishing to be gone before too many police smothered the whole area.

  • Good In Parts

    Did SAH see the killer in Arnand?

    In my timeline they were in the area at the same time and potentially could have seen each other or even spoken to each other.

    If the killer thought that he had been seen by SAH and/or the others, then that may explain why he shot everyone.

    • michael norton

      Good In Parts,
      there is a plausible case to be made, that the killer “saw” the al-Hilli family in Arnand, perhaps he was their photographer.

  • Good In Parts

    Michael Norton

    I agree with you almost completely about the weapon, though I think the killer departed on a motorcycle rather than a car.

    It probably is still where he left it.

  • Good In Parts

    Michael Norton

    I have checked and the ‘flower wall’ full family group photograph seems to have been taken at 15:08 in Chevaline.

    This probably means in the commune of Chevaline.

    But yeah, you make a good point. The photographer has not come forward and could indeed have been involved in some way.

    The gendarmes have obviously failed to trace the photographer despite knowing exactly where and when the picture was taken.

    What have the locals got to hide?

  • Good In Parts

    An investigation misdirected from the off, drowning in data, currently adrift in a rolling swell. The bereaved left to twist in the wind.

    They need to go back to the start.

    • michael norton

      The need to fully de-brief Sylvain’s common law wife, her uncle and her mum and dad and brother.
      Then they need to de-brief all those who have been present in the fire fighters building, past and present, adjacent to their chemist shop,
      in Grignon.
      They need to de-brief any employees of the chemist shop – past and present.
      Then bring in the slob on the motorbike, who they could not locate for nine months.
      They need to describe in easy language why he was said to be untouchable?

      • michael norton

        They need to de-brief the people where he worked as a Nuclear Fuel welder.

        Was this just a cover-job, was Sylvain a sleeper for the DGSE?
        We have strong notion that his near-by relative Nicholas Mollier Thomas
        did work for the DGSE.

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    The ‘start’ for me is Claude Antoine’s sighting of two ‘mobylettes’ heading up past him.

    In my humble opinion the first one was likely the killer and the second one the TBR (who is mis en cause).

  • michael norton

    A policeman commits suicide in Annecy, the 37th since the beginning of the year
    Annecy, July 8, 2019 (AFP) – A 40-year-old policeman committed suicide around 14:00 on Monday with his service weapon in the parking lot of the Annecy police station, according to sources concordant, a priori not for professional reasons.
    According to a count of AFP, this peacekeeper is the 37th policeman to commit suicide since the beginning of the year.

    He killed himself in his own car, just before taking service with the Crime Squad.

    The prefecture has set up an emergency medical-psychological support cell, which doubles as a support cell of the Ministry of the Interior, told AFP the prosecutor of the Republic of Annecy, Véronique Denizot .

    This support will concern in particular eight colleagues of the police officer, who have been most in touch with the facts, said the firefighters.

    The investigation into the causes of death has been entrusted to the Judiciary Police (PJ) and the General Inspectorate of the National Police (IGPN), Denizot said.

    According to the prosecutor, his colleagues were all the more shocked that the policeman “said nothing to anyone, and that there was no sign of his gesture”.

    It was a person “very appreciated, very cheerful, it’s a terrible human drama, especially for colleagues who have really lost someone from their family,” added the magistrate.

    The first elements guide the investigation towards a gesture related to the emotional rather than the professional life of the police officer. “But how does this police profession not weaken those who exercise it?” asked Mrs. Denizot.
    https://www.atlantico.fr/node/3575905

  • Good In Parts

    Assuming SM was the principal target, why was he not whacked elsewhere en-route?

    For example, near La Balmette the cycleway passes through a heavily wooded area which looks reasonably suitable.

    It may be that the killer, having followed SM wfrom somewhere near Ugine, needed to wait till le Martinet parking in order to ‘gain time’ so that he could pick up his luger etc.

    Other factors could include:-

    Shots would be reported
    Poor exit options
    Too near home
    Too near SP station
    More cyclistes

    • michael norton

      Good In Parts

      I would say that Sylvain was not followed, by the killer, he was ambushed.
      I would say that William Brett Martin was following, keeping watch from a little distance but he was tipped off about the meet.
      I imagine that the killer always intended to take out all the adults.
      As I have said before, Sylvain and his bird were constantly being surveilled .
      Sylvain’s handlers told him to go to that meet.

      • michael norton

        What the Crime Investigators need to ask.
        Is what story did Sylvain give to Ms. Schutz
        as to why it was so important for Sylvain to go out.

        It is very likely that this line of truth-finding will elucidate who would be responsible for ordering
        The Hit.

        • michael norton

          I suggest, once to choice was made to take out Sylvain Mollier, the choice was also to take out the three adults in the al-Hilli group, as well.

  • Good In Parts

    For reference here is my estimate of the timing of events at le Martinet parking.

    15:37:00 – SAH party arrive at le Martinet parking
    15:38:30 – SM arrives – shooting starts
    15:39:10 – shooting finishes – wheels spin
    15:39:30 – killer leaves – WBM approx 70m away
    15:40:00 – WBM arrives – moves Zainab to recovery position
    15:41:00 – WBM moves SM
    15:42:00 – WBM checks car, stops engine
    15:43:00 – WBM starts back down combe
    15:44:30 – WBM meets PB
    15:44:59 – first emergency call by PB to SP
    15:46:00 – WBM et al start back up
    15:47:30 – WBM arrives back at le Martinet parking
    15:48:00 – PB wigs out and tries to assault WBM
    15:48:30 – PB makes second emergency call to SP

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