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At every single occasion that this failing government has been caught out, either because of sleaze related to PPE, the highest death rate from Covid in Europe, the more recent partygate and all the other scandals, ministers change the subject to boast how ‘we’ meaning the Tories, have had the most successful vaccine rollout in the world. But the successful vaccine rollout has occurred in spite of 11 years of Tory misrule rather than because of it. In this article there is an analysis of how the Astra Zeneca vaccine was subsidized by the tax payer and by charities, and how they fought despite government cuts. Similarly the attempts at privatizations in the NHS has led to very long waiting lists and stresses on the NGS. Brexit has led to very severe staff shortages.
This article discusses some of these facts. But sadly the Tories are attempting to embed the misinformation into historical facts and are neither challenged by the Labour party nor by the press.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-tories-have-taken-credit-for-the-vaccine-rollout-heres-who-is-really-behind-the-remarkable-success-272920/Good article; thanks, SA.
One thing we have learnt is that we can’t rely on the mainstream media to tell us the facts.
Freedom of information revelation – by Dr John Campbell (20 Jan 2022) – YouTube, 17m 09s
Fred
Other than this being out of topic, there is nothing surprising about this ‘astounding’ revelation. Life expectancy is reduced with age and also with any co-morbidities and advancing life expectancy is a function in advancement of medical science. If you think that the fact that 10,000 died of a new disease and nothing else is not very serious then you should perhaps also ignore deaths from other causes like
Road Traffic accidents: 2020 1460
Suicides England) 4912The fact that those with co-morbidities are more likely to die of another illness is not a new or starnge concept. The bottom line is that there were between 127,000 and 174,000 deaths of people and this was untimely, they would have lived longer.
Remember too that some of these co-morbidies include obesity, heart disease and kidney disease also. Do these lives not matter?
Successful vaccine roll out – very successful.
But who takes responsibility for the near closure of conventional medicine in UK over past 2 years?
I speak as a diabetic patient who had a heart attack in April 2020 but hasn’t actually seen a GP or hospital doctor since I was discharged 3 days later having had an emergency angiogram. Nor have my parents who being 88+ would normally expect to see their GP 5 or 6 times a year.I am certainly not anti-NHS staff. My sister is a Sister, the guy that cycled past but then stopped to save my life turned out to be the very A&E Registrar who admitted me 40 mins later – he’d been cycling to the evening shift.
But the NHS is Fxxxed, we all know it – that is why we stopped clapping 18 months ago.
Other than this being out of topic, there is nothing surprising about this ‘astounding’ revelation.
My apologies, something had given me the impression the article you posted was about the “right-wing mass media that twists the truth on a daily basis to paint the government in a favourable light”, can’t think what gave me that idea.
What is surprising is that the mainstream media continues to refer to the 150,000 people who died whithin 28 days of testing positive for covid as the “150,000 covid deaths” and don’t mention that only in 17,000 cases was covid the sole cause of death.
As for party politics I don’t believe any party will come out of it in a favourable light though the history books may well look fovourably on the few MPs who stood up for individual rights and freedoms by voting against their party whip.
The NHS has been underfunded and slowly piecemeal privatised so that it becomes natural to declare it a failure and offer full privatisation as the way to save it. The fault is not that if the professional side of the NHS but of it’s political manipulations.
It is important to realise this and not to dispair of the NHS but of the way that politicians play with the NHS.
Fred
You do not seem to understand that people with Co morbities are not the walking dead on borrowed time, so, very dispensable and if 130000 or 170000 of them die then it is not an issue.
There is a difference in the way the pandemic has been milked by the government for profit and political capital and what you are trying to do, to trivialise the deaths as dispensable because of co morbidities. Excess death are just that, excess deaths.And the co morbidities include diabetes, hypertension and obesity. Many with these conditions live a near normal healthy life if care is taken but may die of covid. For you Fred, is this irrelevant?
SA
Hypertension can kill, as can diabetes, or obestiy, getting run over by a bus can kill you and if you tested positive 27 days ago the media can call it a covid death.It’s not surprising the NHS was the institution that shouldered the most responsibility and was more or less the sole agency responsible for the vaccine rollout success. The NHS has been carrying out national health programmes for years and has the databases of data required. They know how to find the right people to contact, contact them and follow up on those who don’t reply. Also there is a national infrastructure in place to deliver whatever it is they need to.
What is astonishing is how the current government spent billions trying to reinvent the wheel to dulpicate what was already there and why that spectacularly failed. You simply cannot build that kind of database in a few short months. The UK NHS system is a treasure far more valuable than anything else the UK posesses other than it’s citizens.@Fred
I have utmost respect for Dr. John Campbell and his approach is very level headed, relevant and detailed. In his video you linked he did say he was processing that data about the number of deaths in which the sole cause was Covid at approx 17,000 and had yet to consider it further.
In previous threads we discussed the relevance of comorbidities. I would guess were you to look at the same thing for any of the leading causes of death in the UK (or anywhere else) you’d find something similar. Namely that most would not be listed as the sole cause of death and that most people would have had one or more contributing comorbidities on the death cert (particularly given the average age of deaths).
I agree with Dr. Campbell regarding the cancer situation though I am not so sure that the figure he cited of 50,000 excess cancer deaths that “probably” have already happened. Agressive cancers are likely to kill you regardless of early diagnosis and treatment. I do however believe that many many people will have delayed going to see a doc or had appointments delayed or postponed because of the pandemic. I don’t think enough time has elapsed as yet for large numbers of people to be dying from cancers missed because of those reasons. I suspect we will start to see the effect of that in the coming 1-3 years, another burden the NHS will have to shoulder.
We have yet to fully comprehend possible further and future consequences of Sars-Cov-2 infection. Dr. Campbell made another yt video relating to symptoms and sequalae in which he gives details of a strange disease, Encephalitis lethargica, which became prevalent after the 1918 pandemic and persisted for a number of years thereafter.
Fred
“Hypertension can kill, as can diabetes, or obestiy, “
Actually you are wrong, these conditions rarely kill directly:
Hypertension kills if there is prolonged uncontrolled high blood pressure which eventually leads to heart attacks or strokes: you rarely ever die of hypertension.
Have you ever seen someone die because they are fat? No again it is part of the metabolic syndrome and leads to other complications including hypertension and diabetes.
Diabetes: Yes diabetes if not controlled can kill and this in some cases can be very quick if diabetic ketoacidosis with coma occurs. Most diabetics lead a normal healthy life but if diabetes is not well controlled it leads to other complications including heart disease, kidney disease and other problems.
So in fact all of these conditions can go on for long periods of time but in the case of Covid 19 these conditions make you more susceptible to have a more severe illness and more likely to die.
“Hypertension can kill, as can diabetes, or obestiy, getting run over by a bus can kill………”
Fred, I can tell you that if you were to put hypertension, diabetes, obesity or road traffic accident as sole cause of death on a death cert it would be rejected and you’d have the coroner’s office calling you to have a little chat. Also, the funeral directors probably wouldn’t accept it. We have had extensive discussions about death certs in another covid thread here starting from about that point in the thread. At the risk of repeating myself it is also worth reading Guidance for doctors completing Medical Certificates of Cause of Death in England and Wales.
“… you and if you tested positive 27 days ago the media can call it a covid death.”
I don’t understand why people get so hung up about this “within 28 days” thing. The UK Gov site gives figures for both within 28 days of positive test AND deaths with covid 19 on the death cert here and the latter is higher than the former. There are also other methods. The within a certain time period from an event is a method used frequently in relation to health. Neonatal death (within 28 days of birth), maternal death (within 42 days of delivery), post operative death (within 28 days of surgery) and a host of others. It’s both a definition and a tool used to point to something that may warrant further more thorough investigation.
For sure, some people who died within 28 days of a positive test may well have died from something unrelated BUT the figures for deaths with covid-19 on the death cert are considerably higher and that is probably the more relevant figure.Fred how would you go about assessing the burden of a new disease, whatever it might be? I can almost guarantee you you will have to use some form of event 1 associated with event 2 within a time period as part of that assessment. It’s a reasonable tool to use for the purpose of assessing any disease/condition burden. You say diabetes can kill you and I’d ask you how do you know that?
I did not mean this thread to be a rehash of all the arguments as to whether people die of or with covid. This boring subject has been discussed so many times before and frankly both myself and ET have refuted these arguments by Fred and other covid deniers. This thread is about vaccines and about how politicians use NHS and other public bodies achievements for political gains. Is it possible for others to refrain from hijacking this thread for other purposes? Could mods please help?
“how politicians use NHS and other public bodies achievements for political gains”
Doesn’t that about sum up politics perhaps since the beginning of politics but especially so in the last 30 plus years. Politics is now media driven rather than grassroots driven. Every politician wants media attentiion and the rise of the press office and spin merchants which leads to presentations designed for maximum attention, the political equivalent of click bait. Politics is no longer about what is and what isn’t the right thing to do but about who gets the most press attention. We, the electorate, are largely to blame for that by accepting that as the status quo.
Excess deaths have increased far more than 150,000, and life expectancy has decreased. Something is responsible for this.
Fred, what do you suggest the NHS should do with covid patients? Have security shoot them at a distance and incinerate them to keep things working for non-covid patients? Do you think that would reduce the overall death rate?
In the UK, a million people have reported long term symptoms. People who’ve had covid are more likely to die afterwards, of any cause. Covid damages people.
Excess mortality in England: weekly reports. The first document they list on that page Weekly excess mortality in England analysis is fine work allowing you to look at excess deaths over the whole period for various causes of death. Interesting analysis.
Fred, what do you suggest the NHS should do with covid patients? Have security shoot them at a distance and incinerate them to keep things working for non-covid patients? Do you think that would reduce the overall death rate?
I wouldn’t suggest the NHS did anything with covid patients.
I would suggest the mainstream media should not translate “covid on death certificate” or “died within 28 days of a positive test” to “died of covid”.
A great deal of damage has been done by the government panicking and copying the tactics of a totalitarian authoritarian Communist dictatorship because they thought they had to be seen to do something and could think of nothing else. This despite there being little or no scientific evidence of the effectiveness of the measures. I feel the media are as much to blame for this as the government, if not more.
Completely off topic. None of the above contributions above are relevant. Why not start your thread on covid deaths?
With respect SA, what more is there to say after your first post.
“how politicians use NHS and other public bodies achievements for political gains” about says it all. Isn’t that why we all read such blogs as CM’s? To get away from the click bait type headlines and propaganda? I don’t agree with Fred’s views on how covid deaths were assessed but he has a point in that the media used the whole thing to sensationalise and sell advertisement. I don’t think you will find many reading these here forums disagreeing with you. Question is how do we go about changing it?ET
With due respect, every time covid appears in a thread, the same question that has been discussed to death comes up about death rates and other data discussions. The political and economic use by government of the pandemic and the political misuse, the real conspiracy and complacence of the press in presenting it is a completely different matter which seems not to attract attention. As you yourself said, you have had this discussion before with Fred who is a covid denier and these arguments go round in circles.I guess what I am saying is that there are two aspects of the covid debate: one questions the science and the data, and the other is how politicians use it. The first belongs to sceptics and deniers which leads to the same old overarching conspiracy theories whereas the second is the political whitewash which is very underdebated. Even the Labour Party has failed to capitalise on the glaring politicisation of the pandemic in fear of being criticised for rocking the boat during a national crisis. This has resulted in a situation where the opposition cannot criticise the very poor performance from the outset of how the pandemic was handled. We had the absurd situation when we heard daily about vaccine rollout success due to the single handed efforts of Boris Johnson whose popularity and poll ratings rose to stratospheric heights and he felt invincible.
Look at what is unfolding now. The pandemic has been declared over, whilst there are still 200-300 deaths a day, and a new variant of interest has been isolated. The government is obviously heavily leaning on professionals to give a politically popular answer ‘guided by the science’ whilst public health decisions are taken not by experts but by sham democratic voting in a parliament heavily dominated by an extreme right wing government. All this time Fred’s ravings include diatribes against non existent ‘communists’. I guess most politicians to the left of Genghis Khan fit that bill.
We are in a terrible situation now where the only thing that seems to be able to bring an inherently incompetent PM down is that he is lying about parties whilst killing people through negligence; carrying on with serious economically disastrous policy to siphon money from the taxpayers to rich cronies barely receives a mention. The right wingers now feel vindicated that lockdown saves no lives because of the fact that we had a sort of poor man’s lockdown not properly implemented and supported that has produced one of the highest death rates in Europe. And all the time we are diverted by Fred to keep discussing the same futile arguments.
Sorry to go on ranting about this, but the primary aim of the covid deniers and other CT disseminators is exactly to dominate the agenda and divert from the real issues and this is what Fred is doing and we are all falling for it. (S)he just rehashes all the old arguments and we spend time trying to persuade him/her. It is a futile diversion.
And meanwhile the problems, in great part created by the Tories with growing NHS waiting lists means an opportunity to siphon even more public funds to cronies under the excuse of more efficiency. Sajid Javid has appointed a former TSB banker as chairman of the NHS with a task to turnaround the waiting list problems. No doubt some of the solutions will include increased role of private investors in reducing these waiting lists.
Fred, I believe that you are arguing in bad faith. This:
– “…there being little or no scientific evidence of the effectiveness of the measures.”
is a denial of reality, and I believe that you know it, so I believe that you’re being deliberately deceptive.
I believe that you are deliberately conflating the public health matter of how to control infection, with a political argument promoted primarily by fifty or so backbench Conservative MPs regarded as even more right-wing than Johnson and his mob. And I believe that because earlier, you posted:
– “the history books may well look fovourably on the few MPs who stood up for individual rights and freedoms by voting against their party whip.”
…which is exactly what’s been in the news recently. Since these are your heroes of Freedom, Fred, please tell me where the majority of them stand and how they’ve voted on the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill?
– ‘Democracy survives another day’: Government defeated 14 times over draconian police bill
– Police Bill Alliance – @PoliceBillAll
– The last day of Report for the #PolicingBill is well underway. We’ll be tweeting here all night.
– 4:02 pm · 17 Jan 2022I think that would be a better test of their commitment to democracy and liberty, and I wager that they fail. You can find their positions and voting record here:
https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/Farid Jalali MD – @farid__jalali – 20 Jan
Physician. Internist. Gastroenterologist.– If we begin to accept the evidence that acute COVID19 is — at its core — a severe autoimmune ‼️???????? ?????????? disorder, then all of below “with” COVID hospitalizations become “for” COVID:
– Heart attacks
– Strokes
– Lung clots
– Deep vein clots
– Bowel infarction– Most of the hospital admissions “with” COVID in this Omicron wave are due to one of the above diagnoses. None of these are occurring coincidentally. They’re squarely due to COVID, but to accept this, requires us to move toward accepting platelet-vascular model of disease.
