Independence for England?

by craig on September 15, 2011 10:25 am in Uncategorized

Unemployment fell in Scotland on yesterday’s new figures, while it rose everywhere else in the United Kingdom. There is no doubt that the difference was caused by the fact that the Scottish government has a (limited) ability to effectively spend forward and thus postpone the results of the Osborne public spending cuts. But the interesting result of that, is that the employment increase in Scotland was in the private sector, not the public sector, while private sector employment fell in England.

The Osborne theory – that public sector employment “crowds out” private sector employment, and cutting public sector jobs will somehow automatically increase the production of private sector jobs – appears, in this large scale example in the actual UK economy – the opposite of the truth. Cutting public sector jobs cuts private sector jobs too. That is intuitively correct – people who have just lost their job, their car and their home are going to be spending less buying things from other people.

As Miliband’s appearance before the TUC reminds us, the truth is that, were New Labour in power, the difference between what Osborne is doing and what New Labour would do is very marginal indeed. Only in Scotland do the voters have a real alternative, and they have flocked to it in droves.

While some old people will die this winter because they cannot afford to heat their homes, the Westminster government has had no trouble at all in finding over £100 billion to burn in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, in the interests of the wealthy elite in charge of a few mega-corporations. These wars have been solidly supported by all the unionist parties, with a brief wobble by the Lib Dems under the good Charlie Kennedy, quickly disposed of.

The SNP have provided the only electable alternative to extreme neo-conservative policy (including neo-liberal economic policy) available to electors in the UK. They have had stunning electoral success as a result. The Lib Dems were perceived briefly in England as opposing the neo-cons, with some justice, but were hijacked by the right wing Clegg, and their wider leadership was bought up by the present and future riches office brings in our corrupt system. But in the period the Lib Dems did seem an alternative to the neo-con Tory and New Labour parties, they rose to new heights of popularity and support.

The almost 100% correlation today between unionism and neo-conservatism among professional politicians and media pundits is why I am absolutely confident Scotland will achieve independence very soon. That neo-con recipe is well and truly rejected by the Scottish people.

But where does that leave a newly independent England? (presumably still attached to Wales, but I leave that and Irish union aside) Political progressives in England have traditionally been the most hostile to English independence because England would have a permanent Tory majority.

Well, I am not so sure it would. Only ten years ago Scotland seemed to have a permanent New Labour majority. Things change. But also, how thick do so-called progressives have to be, not to see that New Labour is absolutely another neo-con party?

Who launched the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Who introduced university tuition fees? Who brought in control orders and 28 days detention? Who sanctioned kettling? Who gave unimaginable sums of your money to the bankers? Who massively expanded the Private Finance Initiative? Who invented Academy schools? Who was complicit in torture and extraordinary rendition? Who presided over the greatest ever growth in the gap between rich and poor in this country? Answers: New Labour, New Labour, New Labour, New Labour, New Labour, New Labour, New Labour, New Labour and
New Labour.

The truth is that, within the union, there is no practical chance for England to have any government other than a government of neo-cons. It needs a seismic shift to break this up. What we have seen is that the party system is resilient even to moments when its corruption is revealed to all, as in the MPs’ expenses and Murdoch scandals. The United Kingdom as an entity is in the power of a corrupt political class controlled by corporations, for whom perpetual war, hydrocarbon dominance worldwide and access at will to taxpayers’ pockets are the necessary conditions of their existence. Only a truly seismic shock in the political landscape can save the English from this. That much-needed shock can be the break-up of the United Kingdom. Who knows how politics in England would fall out afterwards, but it cannot be worse. A shake of the kaleidoscope is a moment of great potential. England needs that.

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123 Comments

  1. Farage and UKIP – no thanks

  2. The new country will be called Trotuk – the remainder of the UK.

  3. Or Trot-uk and the SWP could run it!

  4. Hmm. Couldnt disagree more, Craig, as you might guess. As a half-scot, half-english citizen living in Scotland, I hold on to that ethics which is not restricted or diverted by some line on a map. If something bad is happening to people in Dundee and in Bolton, both are equally deserving of compassion and support. Therefore, if people in England are/will be suffering because of Lansley’s grotesque mutilation of the NHS I feel just as outraged as if it were happening on my doorstep. People are stronger when they work together; an independent Scotland would please the megacorporations no end, and global financiers would be rubbing their hands with glee.

    Cue the sneers.

  5. Mike,

    I don’t think you address my argument. I don’t in any way claim that people in Dundee deserve better services than people in Bolton. I am arguinng that only the break up of the UK might lessen the grip of neo-cons on Westminster, thus helping the people of Dundee and Bolton.

  6. “Who launched the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?”

    Don’t overlook Yugoslavia – quicker and thus less bloody but in some ways more shocking, as it was the first of Blair’s wars, and the closest to home, and also, if I’m not mistaken, the first demonstration that NATO had torn up its charter and morphed from defensive alliance into aggressive attack dog.

    If the myth that Kosovo* was a ‘good’ war is allowed to persist, people will always be able to say Iraq was an exception, that humanitarian bombing can be a valid concept. You see them saying it now, trying to justify Libya.

    Excuse me, I have to go puke.

    *note: I say ‘Kosovo’ but NATO bombed Serbia, Montenegro and Bulgaria during those weeks. I forget if they got Macedonia or Albania too. Very likely.

  7. But to get back on topic, losing Scotland would weaken the UK as a force for evil in international affairs. That alone makes it worthwhile, though I’d vote for it for other reasons anyway.

    (As a Scot by ancestry but not residence I probably wouldn’t have a vote but I’d be in the queue for a passport if I qualified.)

  8. The link given yesterday to Lies of the Libyan War, Counterpuch, shows exactly who dictates UK foreign policy, the Zionist Bankers who refused to allow Gaddaffi to fund 0% interest loans to Africa using Libyan oil wealth.
    Scotsman Brown was just as incapable of seeing the problem as Craig. My mind is tired with trying to work out why this Scottish dullard political class is blind to the toxic effect of interest, and the poison of being blackmailed by Zionist money.
    Maybe it’s because they really don’t want the English to succeed, racism, unconscious or otherwise.
    It reminds me of a story about my father. His whole life he was fit and healthy and would eat any type of food put in front of him, chile, curry etc. His second wife was Scottish, and she decided to put him on a 100% oats diet. Oat biscuits, oat soup etc. Within a few weeks he was suffering from sickness and the symptoms of a very inflamed digestive system.
    Just because we have always borrowed money from Jewish Bankers and they have always got us through crises in the past, doesn’t mean you can put your entire economy on an interest only diet, on the theory that it’s good for you. Britain has flourished in the past in spite of the toxic effects of interest. Socialism and capitalism are both equally capable of being thoroughly abused. We deal with the consequences of this abuse.
    But we cannot deal with or cope with the tax of interest going to third parties whose ideas are directly opposed to our own, who then dictate to us to do terrible things that are completely against our own national interests, like attack Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya.
    I’m extremely pissed off with Craig’s denial of this cornerstone of the UK’s malaise. It’s really like talking to a brick wall.
    Inshallah if all the Scottish economic zombies, with Gaelic intonations that sound as though the speaker understands what they’re talking about like Gordon Brown, get up behind Hadrian’s Wall, we can get some sense going here in England. I can go up and piss on the wall from time to time for a day’s outing near Carlisle.

  9. Craig, I just cannot agree, nor do I with Quelcrime above; separation would create a rump state where not only would the Tories and the right exercise political dominance, they would do so in an atmosphere untroubled by the captious comments of Scots. The UK as a force for evil in international affairs? – without Scotland, the gloves would be off.

  10. Excellent post – We are prepared for the shake – .
    .
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/UK-Collapse/235831909768344?sk=info
    .
    Join us.

  11. Well said Craig as ever.
    .
    This good Scotsman John Hilley writes of where BBCspeak for bomb attacks on Libya = air strikes.
    .
    BBC simplified-speak
    Posted by John Hilley on September 15, 2011, 11:02 am
    .
    The violence of neutralised BBC language – usually nestled in the middle of such pieces – and how to mask Nato’s crimes in one conveyable sentence:
    .
    “Nato has been carrying out air strikes under a mandate from two UN resolutions to protect Libyan civilians.”
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14926308
    .
    John Hilley’s blog is [http://johnhilley.blogspot.com}

  12. I don’t sneer, Mike Cobley, lines on a map, and Craig knows this was how the imperialists carved up Africa, can be the biggest barrier to friendship and integration, cutting across tribal homelands, separating families and abolishing traditional ties. It was also the cause of much trouble in the island of Ireland
    .
    I agree with Craig that New Labour is more like New Tory (or even old Tory) and there appear to be no alternatives (unless the Green Party suddenly becomes electable). But assume Scotland was independent, and successfully independent under the SNP, which is questionable, it would be impractical to have the SNP elected in English constituencies, even if it were desirable, unless they changed their name. And separating or segmenting these Islands into four entities is taking a retrograde step based on lines on a map.
    .
    It is encouraging that Scotland is bucking the trend nationally with unemployment figures; encouraging that there are no university fees and other positive signs. I don’t want to sound Churchillian by talking about English-speaking nations, but there is a tendency in nationalist parties to become too insular (back to Gaelic, etc) and all the progressive integration that has taken place over the last century could be lost in a passion of nationalist fervour.
    .
    Hitler was popular and made popular decisions of which his countrymen and women were proud. Let’s not forget that his party was a nationalist party, and Germany, surrounded by imperialist countries, eventually wanted to spread this nationalist goodwill elsewhere. And no, I don’t believe Alex Salmond wants that, and nor does Craig.

  13. Mr Hogan-Howe means business I think. Let’s hope things improve vis-à-vis the Met’s dealings with the public and the media.
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14931067

  14. ‘If the myth that Kosovo* was a ‘good’ war is allowed to persist, people will always be able to say Iraq was an exception, that humanitarian bombing can be a valid concept. You see them saying it now, trying to justify Libya.’

    Couldn’t agree more, Quelcrime. All wars are disgusting. There is no such thing as a ‘good war’ unless you are an arms dealer. The day dealing in arms becomes a crime will be a blessing for mankind.
    .
    Yet you then go on to propose divisions by proposing a separate Scotland to where you would emigrate. That baffles me.

  15. War criminals Cameron and Sarkozy are visiting Libya.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14926308

  16. Johann Hari has fessed up for plagiarising, inventing comments from interviewees and altering Wikipedia pages etc. and is going to the US for ‘journalism training’. Incredible.
    .
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1316022329.html

  17. John Goss makes the mistake of assuming that an independent Scotland would automatically be ruled over by the SNP – this isn’t the case. A newly independent Scotland would be governed by whatever party the Scottish electorate votes for in general elections.
    .
    Equating the Scottish electorate in a newly independent Scotland with Nazi Germany and, somehow, equating the SNP and Alex Salmond with Hitler, is a sign of how desperate British nationalist imperialist are. It just shows they’ve no rational arguments, just demonising propaganda.
    .
    It is propaganda typical of British imperialism down the ages. If it wasn’t for the civilising effects of the Oxbridge-London Whitehall mandarin class then the natives would be too stupid to govern themselves properly and would start civil wars, unless some kind of Hitler-esque saviour arose to rule over their querulous factions. And anyway, the natives are too poor to afford independence from the British Empire, and need the British taxpayer to subsidise their expensive way of life.
    .
    Really, there’s nothing more insular, backwards and unchanging than how the Oxbridge-London elite views the rest of an outside world which they naturally regard as their birthright to rule over and administer.

  18. Maybe we should all knock our heads together and demand Independence for the UK from whoever is pulling our levers at present.
    Most Scots would like Independence but fear that we will jump from one frying pan to another, unless it is total independence, something that never gets aired in the media or by the SNP.
    A lot of people want to start independence with a clean slate, others want to be in the EU from day one.

  19. Mary, “War criminals Cameron and Sarkozy are visiting Libya.”
    It used to be said that they “always return to the scene of the crime”.

  20. Well it’s quite a novelty, Joe Kane, for an internationalist to be equated with British nationalist imperialists and I shall savour the moment for a millisecond or two.

  21. When do I get my new passport ??

  22. Deception Rules…
    .
    The Zionist idiom of ‘making the best of a bad situation’ is working well so far for the Arab Spring. The military have effectively stalled true democratic advancement in Egypt and protests and demonstrations in Jordan, Yemen and Bahrain have been contained by Saudi brute force, while minor skirmishes in Saudi itself have been repressed by torture and imprisonment.
    .
    Britain and France have gained an estimated $60 billion in oil contracts and plans are set for a huge Anglo/French military base in Libya. Syria has been a struggle for the Neo-Con subversion and deception despite foreign fighters and a foreign-funded media group that fabricated videos of demonstrations, repressions and killings by the Syrian security forces.
    .
    http://www.shoah.org.uk/2011/09/06/foreign-linked-syrian-admits-deception/
    .
    The fall of President Bashar al-Assad’s government has been prevented by Iranian intelligence according to my own knowledge and the Iranian ambassador to Libya is right now expanding bilateral cooperation with the NTC. Iran has thus put a spoke in the Neo-Con wheel and sabotaged the elites own revolution. The West will now attempt to divert Iran’s attention with a monstrous increase in terrorist activities within Iran’s own borders.
    .
    Right now the opposing forces are in balance, sensitive to global consciousness. Public opinion matters, you matter; your voice can steer the outcome at this crucial time. I hope you make the right choice.

  23. What are the chances of Marshall Law or something similar if people in Scotland vote yes for independence?

  24. What are the chances of Marshall Law or something similar if people in Scotland vote yes for independence?

    .
    Nil.

  25. When do I get my new passport ??

    .
    A new EU passport to replace your old EU passport?

  26. It is not independence for England that’s required, its independence for British regions. Scotland has the focus to achieve independence, but it’s the other poor parts of England that will suffer further as a result.

    It’s time to start a Northern Party.

  27. Thanks John Goss. I notice you don’t engage with my arguments.
    .
    Supporting the British state isn’t internationalism.
    .
    It’s a delusion common amongst Brits that they aren’t insular and parochial, and anyone who doesn’t want to be ruled over by the British Establishment and its Whitehall mandarin class is.

  28. Craig is absolutely right, England has been ruled by a British ruling class, in which the Scots and Anglo Irish played a very important role, for a couple of centuries. The importance of Scots and Irish had something to do with the exceedingly, even by pre 1832 English standards, tightly controlled Parliamentary seats.

    And then there is the Jingo factor: Little England is the remedy for imperialist delusions and neo-imperialist crime. The closer people are to government, the smaller the constituencies and the more frequent elections are the better things should be.
    (In case anyone feels that US House elections every two years prove otherwise, recollect that there are only about 430 Members of that House and 310 million inhabitants- the constituencies are deliberately made too large for democracy to be a threat.)

  29. It wouldn’t be the first time tanks were on the streets of Scotland.
    Glasgow 1919 ,
    Initially, the writ of the Workers Council ran little further than the City Hall but as the day moved on, more of the city pledged support for what was already becoming known as the Glasgow Soviet. A critical element of support came from a battalion of soldiers stationed at Maryhill, which executed its own officers and formed a “Red Guard” to defend the Soviet.

    In London, the news of the events in Glasgow had been received with fear and disbelief. The Prime Minister, David Lloyd George, contacted Home Secretary George Cave who immediately agreed that this “revolution”, as he called it, had to be suppressed “with the full ferocity of the law”. However, it soon became clear that the Glasgow Police force had either melted away or joined the Soviet along with a number of soldiers and sailors.

    Throughout the war, a force of some 10,000 soldiers had been retained in England specifically to deal with any internal civil unrest or disaster. This force was ordered to Glasgow along with tanks. The force was made up of wholly English troops, as Cave and Lloyd George believed that Scottish forces would not be reliable. Indeed, news of the Glasgow Soviet had led to sporadic mutinies and unrest in other Scottish regiments.

    The Army faced disruption as it approached Glasgow with roadblocks in place and the rail system disrupted. Soldiers were met with jeers and stones in Airdrie and Motherwell and, worryingly for the Government, some desertions were reported.

    On February 4th, the army moved into Glasgow and met heavy resistance from soldiers and workers. The fighting soon became disorganised as the outgunned strikers used their knowledge of the city and its streets to slow up the advance of the Army. Tanks were attacked and put out of action and casualties were high on both sides. The Army was forced to shell the centre of the city including the railway station, post office and city hall. Slowly, the Army fought its way into the city centre but had to contest every yard.

    For the Soviet leaders, the military response had come as no surprise and they had hurriedly planned a resistance based on the shipyards and the streets. They were outgunned despite the Scottish battalion of around 900 men, which fought bravely to slow up the advance of the Army.

    By the early hours of February 7th, the Army was in the City Centre. The fighting was ferocious in the ruins of the key buildings. Some of the Soviet leaders opted for flight but MacLean and McManus stayed in the City Hall until the end. Just after dawn, English troops broke through the last line of resistance and occupied the City Hall after a fierce battle during which MacLean and McManus were killed. The fighting continued in the shipyards for a further two days during which most of the dockyard installations were sabotaged or destroyed in the fighting.

    The Soviet never knew how close it came to winning the battle. George Cave was ready to withdraw troops and negotiate once the reserves had been committed. There was no formal surrender – the Soviet simply dissolved into the streets. The Army proclaimed martial law and occupied the city. Hundreds were arrested and put on trial for treason. The memorial to the 135 executed strikers still stands in the courtyard of Barlinnie prison

  30. “While some old people will die this winter because they cannot afford to heat their homes, the Westminster government has had no trouble at all in finding over £100 billion to burn in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, in the interests of the wealthy elite in charge of a few mega-corporations. These wars have been solidly supported by all the unionist parties, with a brief wobble by the Lib Dems under the good Charlie Kennedy, quickly disposed of”.

    OK, in a democracy the citizens not only have power and rights: they also share all responsibility for what their government does. Sovereignty cuts both ways. So we are all in the unpleasant position of sharing responsibility for the ultimate war crime: aggressive wars. If anyone attacks us, we have only ourselves to blame for electing such disgusting governments. That’s the argument that is used about WW2, for instance, when some innocent asks why the civilians in Hamburg, Dresden, etc. deserved to be burned alive.

    So – if I want to exercise my right and duty of electing a decent government that will not arbitrarily start aggressive wars, for which political party should I vote? As far as I can ascertain, there is NONE. Even UKIP states that it supports NATO, and says that we should decide (find out?) what our mission is in Afghanistan. (As opposed to just apologising and getting the hell out).

    What kind of “democracy” can this be, in which citizens are forced to accept responsibility for the worst of war crimes – and have no recourse?

  31. “It wouldn’t be the first time tanks were on the streets of Scotland.
    Glasgow 1919 ,”
    .
    Click onto any of the pictures and they will enlarge.
    http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyeve14.htm

  32. Let’s deal with the point about England being doomed to conservative governement in perpetuity if Scotland leaves the Union. Here are the last several election results, with and without the Scottish contribution. Clearly the Scottish effect on the overall outcome is marginal at best and usually irrelevant. Of course even if it were otherwise it would not constitute a reason for remaining in the Union – English affairs are English affairs.
    .
    1966: Labour majority of 96. Excluding Scotland, Lab majority of 4
    .
    1970: Conservative majority of 15. Excluding Scotland, Con majority of 40.
    .
    1974a: Labour largest party, no overall majority. Excluding Scotland, Labour largest party, no overall majority.
    .
    1974b: Labour majority of 4. Excluding Scotland, Lab largest party with no overall majority.
    .
    1979: Conservative majority of 44. Excluding Scotland, Con majority of 71.
    .
    1987: Conservative majority of 101. Excluding Scotland, Con majority of 153.
    .
    1992: Conservative majority of 21. Excluding Scotland, Con majority of 71.
    .
    1997: Labour majority of 177. Excluding Scotland, Lab majority of 137.
    .
    2001: Labour majority of 166. Excluding Scotland, Lab majority of 127.
    .
    2005: Labour majority of 65. Excluding Scotland, Lab majority of 43.
    .
    2010: Conservatives largest party with no overall majority. Excluding Scotland, Con majority of 20.
    .
    As for an independent England, that is too big a unit. The Scottish border is fortuitously placed to define a small unit of population which has some chance of being close enough to its government to hold them to account. Small is beautiful and (I regret to inform Mike Cobley et al) where there is no pre-existing ‘line on the ground’ you will have to draw one. Cornwall, The North, Wales, there are many possibilities. You could start with devolution – we did.
    .
    Bravo Joe Kane for arguing with the deluded Little Englanders – I can never be bothered.

  33. Joe Kane, I didn’t engage with your arguments because you misrepresented me. Nowhere did I say that an independent Scotland ‘would automatically be ruled over by the SNP’ though the trend would appear to be in that direction. Neither did I equate the SNP and Alex Salmond with Hitler. I made that clear in my last sentence because I thought if I didn’t somebody might think I was doing that. I’m happy to engage with anyone in a friendly manner but at the moment Scottish independence seems a long way off to me, so it is probably futile to be talking about passports. Scotland has given our islands some great culture, some exceptional football managers, bagpipes and haggis, and whole lot more. Ireland and Wales have made similar cultural contributions. I am proud we are united. I am proud to be English, and when we don’t go to war, I am proud to be British

    I don’t believe in barriers or boundaries on a map preventing integration. That is what I tried to make clear. That does not make me supporter of the British Parliamentary System as it stands, but I support individual MPs, who make a genuine effort to improve the quality of life for everyone, not just a favoured few.

  34. “The UK as a force for evil in international affairs? – without Scotland, the gloves would be off.”

    But the arms throwing the punches would be weaker.

  35. Vronsky, ‘where there is no pre-existing ‘line on the ground’ you will have to draw one’. You could build a wall – there used to be one. There used to be one in Berlin too. Is that the kind of independence you seek?

  36. “with a brief wobble by the Lib Dems under the good Charlie Kennedy, quickly disposed of. ”
    .
    .
    just watching the media manipulate the public and the public being happy to be manipulated is quite shocking.
    .
    .
    all this indicates that we really do have puppet regimes, be it uk or usa answerable not to the public but to those above.
    .
    .
    i suppose at least charlie is till living to tell his tale unlike so many others.

  37. Paul Johnston

    15 Sep, 2011 - 3:21 pm

    Can someone (John & Jon) please point me to where the Nazis got tied into the SNP, think I missed it.
    About thirty years ago a Socialist mate of mine did a thesis (I think at Sunderland) which compared the demographics of early supports of the NSDAP and the SNP. But as I said it was a very long time ago.

  38. Mary
    OT Hari

    I can’t say I’m surprised. I was a contemporary of his at Cambridge, and though I didn’t know him personally I read the student papers and knew others who worked with him. I was ASTONISHED when he was taken on, pretty much straight from University, as a columnist by the Independent.

    Since then I’ve come to learn that it’s very hard to underestimate the British press.

  39. @John Goss
    .
    I don’t think you really understand this.

  40. “but were hijacked by the right wing Clegg”
    .
    I will be kind to you Craig, what you said is UNTRUE!!!. Clegg could not survive as leader of the Lib Dems without the majority of the Lib Dem membership supporting him, and you know it!!!. You are making up excuses for your own shortcomings in supporting them, trying to make out things will somehow change, thats it not the party but the leader and a few of his bent cronies. You are seriously deluding yourself, you have an awful bad habit of doing that!!!. They are all Tories now, in truth they always have been. Judge not a party by its words but by its actions.

  41. Jonangus Mackay

    15 Sep, 2011 - 3:54 pm

    @Mary:
    .
    Nomen est omen. Can New Yard boss Hogan-Howe see the Louise Hackgate, dead Duggan to-do list ominously concealed in his own name: Whore, Gun, How?
    .
    Note to Commissioner H-H:
    .
    Strange phenomenon’s known, apparently, as nominative determinism. Urge you to bone up on a recent volume containing much of the research data: ‘Wilful Blindness — Why we ignore the obvious at our peril.’

  42. From 1945, after the Labour Party had beaten the Liberal Party at the polls, the political establishment of the imperialist United Kingdom morphed into the Conservative-Labour Governmental Coalition playing the same old, highly successful, ‘democratic’ game of Government Opposition Alternation.

    What makes anyone think that a independent, capitalist Scotland would play a different game?

  43. “What makes anyone think that a independent, capitalist Scotland would play a different game?”
    .
    Because it plays a different game already, and has done for some time. Whence the anxiety of some posters that the conservatives would rule England forever if there were not a perception that Scottish political preferences are different? In England people predominantly vote Labour, Conservative and Liberal – in Scotland two of these parties have almost disappeared and the third is shrinking rapidly. Any challenge to the SNP will have to come from the left, and may not appear until after independence: the right does not fare well in Scotland. Tip: don’t say pigs can’t fly when their wings are darkening the sky.

  44. I can remember when Scotland returned an almost sea of blue to Westminster.
    http://uk.ask.com/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1955?qsrc=3044
    .
    Sad days, sad days, and they are all getting sadder by the day…

  45. $2 billion fraud at UBS. Arrest of ‘rogue trader’ has been made. Nothing changes and investment banking, as it is euphemistically called, has not been reigned in as promised by the ‘COALITION’.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14927432

  46. ‘But the arms throwing the punches would be weaker.’

    Spot-on, Quelcrime; that is the main reason why the political elites in each of the big parties, and the media claques that cheerlead for them (Aaronovitch et al for NuLab, Matthew D’Ancona et al for the undisguised NeoCons)are convinced Unionists (at least as far as Scotland is concerned). They WANT, for peculiar factors relating to collective self-esteem, to belong to a neo-Imperialist entity that ‘punches above its weight’, as the cliche goes. I don’t- and neither probably do most UK citizens,whether they live north or south of the border.

    Having said that, I find it difficult to worship at the shrine of Tom Nairn, as Craig and Joe Kane appear to do. A clean break between North & South Britain (England & Wales will certainly remain together, whatever the Scots decide) will not proceed painlessly along the lines of the Czech/Slovak velvet divorce of 1993. There are several flies in the ointment that could stymie a clean break, including-

    1. A negative reaction from the Eurocrats. The support base for Flemish Nationalism in northern Belgium is even higher than the support base for Scotch Nationalism in North Britain. Any move by the constituent countries of the UK to separate will be resisted because of its likely effect on one of the original ‘six’. England & Wales will be regarded as the sole successor state to the UK,and an independend Scotland would likely have to re-apply for EU membership- and the terms would be tough. Any hopes that the Peterhead fishermen entertain about gaining greater control over Scotch fisheries will be smashed.

    2. The settlement in NI will probably implode if one of the 2 principal guarantors (the UK), ceases to exist. The RoI will defend the interests of its own citizens in NI, whilst simultaneously refusing to take up the slack financially when UK subventions end (as they will, if these subventions are deemed to be the sole responsibility of English & Welsh taxpayers). A newly independent Scotland could thus end up with several thousand ‘pied noir’ Orange refugees on its hands, with deleterious knock on effects to the sectarian problem in Scotland (which, more bluntly, is essentially rooted in anti- Irish racism).

  47. “I can remember when Scotland returned an almost sea of blue to Westminster.”
    .
    Only because their policy was (and had been for some time) the ending of food rationing. Labour wanted to keep it – I wonder if that wasn’t a very early clue.

  48. “Any challenge to the SNP will have to come from the left.” – Vronsky

    And what left would that be? A lot of different pigs who may start darkening the sky?

  49. Vronsky. Your own comment shows that you don’t fully understand it. You point to previous governments and whether they would have been Labour or Conservative without Scotland, whereas the point, as I understood it, was that there is no difference between the Conservatives and Labour, in fact they are all neo-cons.
    .
    Parochially I am a Yorkshireman. Nationally I am a British subject (according to my passport). In my mind I am a human being. Coming from the North of England I am well aware of how London is the source of power and gets the lion’s share of everything; that often regional areas are neglected and underfunded; and at the same time Westminster can cap local governments to prevent them taking independent action. Do I think it would be a good idea for Yorkshire, or Warwickshire, to independently take decisions of national importance? No. I think it would be impractical. We would end up with so many conflicts of interest, and even more bureaucracy than we have now. It would cause division. It would be nice to think that war could be prevented by separate geographical areas, making their own decisions, but I cannot see each regiment taking independent action out of line with other regiments.
    .
    I realise a lot of this talk is tongue in cheek, drawing lines, issuing passports, &c, but despite the neo-cons of whatever colour being in charge it would be better to work together to depose them than work separately on our own garden patch.

  50. “I find it difficult to worship at the shrine of Tom Nairn, as Craig and Joe Kane appear to do. ”
    .
    Rather unlikely that either do as like me they probably find it’s rarely possible to understand what he’s saying. Bernard Crick once offered a prize to anyone who could precis one of his pieces in the London Review of Books. I suspect the prize went uncollected.
    .
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v17/n06/tom-nairn/on-the-threshold
    (see letters at end)
    .
    Interesting comments on sectarianism – I expect this to be the principle unionist line of attack – you’re in early.

  51. “whereas the point, as I understood it, was that there is no difference between the Conservatives and Labour”
    .
    I was answering a point frequently made by others, not one I’d support myself – I agree, they are the same. You may have missed my post where I pointed out that in response to a choice of Labour, Liberal or Conservative the Scottish answer is increasingly ‘none of the above’.
    .
    I respect your concern that neo-con politics is a problem for more than the Scots but I believe it can only be rolled back by local action to fragment the political and fiscal power bases. The neo-cons agree, else why is their opposition to Scottish/Walloon/Basque/Catalan/Timorese/Whatever separation so violent? It cannot be because they share your high ideals, can it?

  52. If you add up ALL the MPs from Scotland/Wales/NI, they are out voted by the number of English MPs. It has always been a very one sided union, with NO built-in get out clause!. But let us not forget, how many Scottish PMs have we had, hmmm, that bodes ill for Scotlands future, so far they have all been a load of CRAP.

  53. ‘Bernard Crick once offered a prize to anyone who could precis one of his pieces in the London Review of Books.’

    I’ve read a couple of Nairn’s books, including his classic ‘The Break-Up of Britain’, and found him relatively intelligible- at least when compared to several other Marxist ideologues. Clearly a highly intelligent, sensitive man, I ‘ve nevertheless found him over the years to be something of a reverse political weather-vane – his tentative predictions usually coming true, inside-out fashion.

    He wrote ‘The Break-Up’ at a high point (the mid 70s)for the celtic nationalist parties which they didn’t see again for another 30 years (and ,in the case of Plaid, will probably never see again). Similarly in the late 80s he bemoaned the possibilty of popular republicanism taking root in the UK- just a few years before Queen Liz’s ‘annus horribilis’ and the rise to journalistic prominence of that king of demotic republicanism, Richard Littlejohn.

  54. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2011/sep/13/youve-been-trumped-scotland-golf-course

    Why do you think that Alec Salmond is a better politician? He’s just as power-mad and unscrupulous. Gone to his head.

    The Kintyre golf course developed sensitively on a SSSI (see http://www.machrihanishdunes.com/) may be praiseworthy though.

  55. I find it difficult to understand what John Goss is talking about, as he mentioned Hitler in relation to the SNP, only to say it isn’t important, then claims he didn’t imply that an independent Scotland would be ruled over by undemocratic and unelected SNP, which he did.
    .
    Now he’s talking about Berlin Walls being built on the Scotland-England border.
    .
    As far as I am aware, Yorkshire doesn’t have its own national church, system of law, health service, education system etc etc – Scotland does hence the reason any analogy with regions of England is inappropriate and doesn’t follow.
    .
    I get the feeling a few commenteers on this thread have a lot of catching up to do with regards to the debate on Scotland’s future.

  56. Jonangus Mackay

    15 Sep, 2011 - 5:55 pm

    OT: The Economist on the keystone, along with ‘tax havens,’ to corporate & sovereign criminality:
    .
    http://econ.st/nF4WS7

  57. Someone should ask how many SNP MSPs have got offshore accounts (and if they have, how much is in them), I would like to know the answer.

  58. “Don’t say pigs can’t fly when their wings are darkening the sky.” Vronsky.
    .
    Bad acid trip, Vronsky? Reminded me a little of the cartoon version of ‘1984’.
    .
    “Marshall law”. Nasir.
    .
    Nasir, I think you meant, ‘Martial Law’, unless possibly you meant, ‘The Law of the US Marshall’ (!)

  59. Paul, I’m not quite sure where the connection between the SNP and the Nazis was made, but I might be guilty. Anyway I get blamed at home for things I don’t think I do too.

  60. Quote Craig “Only a truly seismic shock in the political landscape can save the English from this. That much-needed shock can be the break-up of the United Kingdom.”

    If you want to change the course of politics in this cointry for the better, then come up to Scotland and help this Ancient Nation overcome the lies fed to it’s people continually by the British media.

  61. “The truth is that, within the union, there is no practical chance for England to have any government other than a government of neo-cons.”
    *
    True, it would be easier to have a sensible policy without those scotch cunts like Blair and Brown and Cameron running the country. However, it is entirely possible to have a policy of national independence not driven by US/EU/NATO. You just have to get the fuck out of the EU, NATO and the grip of the United States of Aggression.
    *
    The real Hitlerites are the Scotch imperialists driving British foreign policy. And to keep the sheep in order, they have the BNP, a fake anti-war, nationalist party designed for people like you to call Hitlerite so nobody will vote for independence.
    *
    But you don’t actually want independence, obviously, otherwise you would not be for Scotch Nationalism, which amounts to reducing Scotland to a trivial dependency of the EU: a virtual nothing, far too week to achieve any degree of real independence.

  62. True, it would be easier to have a sensible policy without those scotch cunts like Blair and Brown and Cameron running the country.
    .
    Tell us more about your manifold bitter hatreds.
    .
    The real Hitlerites are the Scotch imperialists driving British foreign policy.
    .
    At least it’s a novel spin on the whole, “Teh Zionazis are taking over the world OMG!”
    .
    I think I once wrote a post about to ridicule the whole Jews-rule-the-world meme which is somewhat popular in these here parts by making up a Scottish conspiracy to rule the world. Didn’t know it would be taken seriously.

  63. You think Brown and Blair aren’t cunts? Well I suppose if you’re a Zionist, killing a million Iraqis for nothing doesn’t count — just like Cameron and Sark dropping 30,000 bombs on Libya for no morally defensible reason doesn’t count either, after all NATO doesn’t do body counts, do they.

  64. alan campbell

    16 Sep, 2011 - 3:27 am

    Craig

    I thought you were all for slashing the public sector and to hell with people’s lives?

  65. Quote Canspeccy “which amounts to reducing Scotland to a trivial dependency of the EU: a virtual nothing, far too week to achieve any degree of real independence”.
    This statment is comic genius,oh and “Scots” is used to refer to anyone whose linguistic, cultural, family ancestral or genetic origins are from within Scotland and is not to be cofused with “Scotch” unless of corse you were refering to the whisky or maybe it was the egg or the broth or even the pie.

  66. The very mention of developers building on green field sites can stir the most placid of us into rowdy protesters; that is if the green field borders your own property.
    […]
    The Daily Telegraph has launched the Hands Off Our Land campaign to urge ministers to think again.
    .
    I would like to think the campaign would have some success but it’s extremely doubtful. Of course the usual ‘consultations’ and public meetings will be held to satisfy the legal aspects of new developments, but they are purely PR and mean nothing. Councils will bend over backwards to please developers if it means they will reach their targets for ‘social housing’.
    .
    For the past couple of years I’ve been involved in trying to save a local field which, only 20 years ago, was again refused planning permission because it was home to one of Scotland’s biggest red squirrel populations and also a large community of bats. Enter a property developer and, before we noticed, they had received planning consent for a large estate of 80+ homes. The first of these homes is now wind and water-tight and will cost an average of £270,000.

    […]
    http://subrosa-blonde.blogspot.com/2011/09/its-developers-world.html

  67. Saor Alba, sounds like a black supremacist.
    *
    But glad, anyway, to see my genius recognized at last.
    *
    And if the Scotch do abandon the Union, will they revert to the use of gaelic and engage in other forms of Hitlerite nationalism? One plus, I suppose, of the Scots ceasing to speak English would be fewer of them trying to tell the English how to use the English language.

  68. “I’ve been involved in trying to save a local field which, only 20 years ago, was again refused planning permission because it was home to one of Scotland’s biggest red squirrel populations and also a large community of bats.”

    I love this sensitivity about bats and squirrels while the English are being ethnically cleansed from London and other English cities with the full support of the Lib-left establishment.

  69. “… while the English are being ethnically cleansed from London and other English cities with the full support of the Lib-left establishment.” can Speecy.
    .
    More potentially inflammatory, supremacist guff.
    .
    As has been pointed out ad nauseam on this blog, Bosnia-Hercegovina 1992-1995 was where the phrase “ethnic cleansing” came into common usage. Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered and/or riven forcibly from their homes – Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats – and that, and the Rwandan massacres (millions of dead) was ‘ethnic cleansing’ (though persoanlly, the term itself is repulsive, the concept of ‘cleansing’ inappropriate to mass murder and pogroms).
    .
    Its use in the context of the UK today is ridiculous and detracts from what is an important issue in the UK and more generally. It is also, I would argue, an insult to those who really have been ‘ethnically cleansed’ in Rwanda, Bosnia or elsewhere.
    .
    We’ve had the chicken-and-egg situation wrt MI6. And now, once again, the hobby-horse is rocking.

  70. The English are not being ethnically cleansed from anywhere, they are leaving voluntarily having over-inflated the prices of their properties to such a height that other English people cannot afford to buy them. They then move to France, Spain, Scotland, etc, to live the good life.
    Others like John Cleese (in Can Speccy’s link) move to California and then blame the UK for letting people from abroad into his beloved London. Makes one question if he was really acting in Monty Python or just being himself.

  71. English Independence will happen by default, once Scotland has made its mind up, England will automatically be Independent.

    An Independent Scotland then can sequester Faslane and abolish it, just send all the nuclear material to Windscale, they love to make something of it, well ehem, store it, because reprocessing will be stopped and the MOX reproccessing facility, costing billions, will be shut.

    As for England getting a reduced, accountable Parliament? I think we have to fight for it, the establishment will not lay back and think of England, they will want to preserve their rotten influences and self serving ways, and they will use the police to stay in power. This will be Syria.

    Off course, Independent countries will have to make their mind up whether they want to be part of a bloated Europe, or belong to some other trading block.
    Looking at the annual rucking migration going to Ireland for some ‘racialist diversifications’ during the Orange season, when peacefull dreams go up in flames and blood red paint resurfaces on the tennament blocks, here I can see a loving relationship developing, Ireland is saved! No more devaluations and cheating by its central bank, Scotland will kiss it better.

    What both countries need are Independent politicians who refuse ot play these party ganmes currently played with us, who make it clear to local authorities that they have to make ends meet and/or save to get there. Mandates from localities have to matter again, not be wiped off our screens by ‘the media’, a complicit, caniving political entity in itself, belitteling and marginalising their efforts. Abolish the BBC as it stands, it has lost its impartiality were it counts, break it up for all I care and ensure that it is not just governed by the great and good, my local butcher would make a great Governor.

    But what do I care… people in England, who profess their love for their country, whilst driving past mountains of rubbish and filth thrown out of their cars, an extension of their homes and the only place they can call their England, have no idea what this notion is they support.

    So all those who profess to love England, clean this place up!
    Decentralise power for all I care, I will suit us fine, because then we would demand accountability locally, we would hold people responsible and take more care in who we elect.

    If enough Scottish voters want Independence, then it will happen for both of us.

  72. Paul Johnston

    16 Sep, 2011 - 9:14 am

    @Rob
    You mentioned John Cleese
    Can I be the first to point out the Proud Scottish Nationalist Sean Connery will not return to Scotland until it is free and until that happens to live as a tax exile.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7261161.stm

  73. CanSpeccy Leave Subrosa alone. We love our native mammals, or what’s left of them.

  74. Just because we Scots want to govern our own affairs and finances that some how makes us “Hitlerite nationalists” is a ridiculous anti Scottish view constantly spewed out by the unionist party’s propaganda departments. Independence for Scotland seems to be perceived by a lot of English people as us being anti English which is totally wrong we have nothing against or any bad feeling for the people of the rest of the UK we simply want control of our own destiny, would you hand your wage packet to your Neighbour and ask them to run your household budget?. I think People in England should be more concerned with the after effects of Scotland’s impending Independence, you think the Tory/ lib Dem cuts are harsh now this will be nothing in comparison to what they will have to cut when they loose Scotland’s resources, now cue the old propaganda about Scotland being a “subsidy junky”. But the truth will come with independence and leave many liars with red faces and empty pockets.

  75. Paul Johnston: You mentioned John Cleese
    Can I be the first to point out the Proud Scottish Nationalist Sean Connery will not return to Scotland until it is free and until that happens to live as a tax exile.

    .
    I like it, Paul. I was thinking of Sir Sean Connery myself (Sir Sean?!?). I didn’t know about John Cleese’s rantings about “immigrants”
    .
    It could be a sketch:
    “What have immigrants ever done for us?”
    “Well, they gave us doctors, nurses, Nobel-prize-winning scientists, writers, manual labourers, service workers, curry, couscous, spring rolls, music…etc…”
    “Yes, but apart from doctors, nurses, Nobel-prize-winning scientists, writers, manual labourers, service workers, curry, couscous, spring rolls, what have they ever done for us?”
    .
    It’s funny how many nationalists live abroad. We have our very own PhD biologist labouring well behind the curve of scientific discovery in the wilds of Canada bemoaning the “ethnic cleansing” of London and his not-so-subtle support for the BNP who can’t bring himself to live there. And there are tax dodging multi-millionaires like Sir Sean who contributes THOUSANDS of pounds to Scottish independence.
    .
    There are silly clowns like Jim Davidson who live in Dubai on the grounds that he’d “rather be an ethic minority there than wait for himself to become one in Britain” (?!?)
    .
    You get some funny people in this world!

  76. Ingo: Abolish the BBC as it stands, it has lost its impartiality were it counts, break it up for all I care and ensure that it is not just governed by the great and good, my local butcher would make a great Governor.


    .
    I disagree. I think it is too tempting to look at something which is either not perfect or even badly corrupted and then decide it is useless or worse than useless and therefore must be done away with. This is illogical. In fact, I think the BBC is still very good and unless you can think of something far better to replace it then be aware that there are plenty of others who have a great idea about how to replace it and it won’t be Right-On-Hippy FM that wins out. It will be FOX NEWS UK.

  77. Qark: You think Brown and Blair aren’t cunts?
    .
    Oh dear, “Qark”. I think I was making a reference to No Can Speecy For Himself’s use of “Scotch cunts”. Which I imagine is a vagina wrapped in breadcrumbs or a deliberate bit of trolling by Alfred/CD/Qark.
    .
    But anyway, as abusive husbands and pedophile priests have known for some time, when all else fails always blame the scotch.

  78. hence my suggestion to break it up, Angry, I’m well aware of the fact that m,any have becvome conditioned to its output.

    A public broadcaster that is pandering to whoever is in power, dependent on their franchise from politicians, not us, the public, a broadcaster that has lost its scrutiny for fear of being castied for it by politicians.
    When times are hard for us, they comply, diversify thoughts with comedy programms galore, they take us for a ride when asked for, by those who decide on their future, but not us.

    Visions of Fox News and right on Hippie Fm do not disappear the arguments, nor does it stop the BBC protecting the establishment.
    What I want is irrelevant, what we all want and agree on should matter there is no blueprint to follow.

  79. Good sketch, angrysoba! I too didn’t know about Cleese ranting – and am very saddened by that, if it’s true. I guess, for some of the public school rebels of yore, it becomes easier to revert to type, eventually. A few years of colour, of dream and inspiration, then it’s back to boring black (and white).
    .
    I’m conflicted about the BBC. I tend to to watch much of its TV News coverage now, but still I think that (apart from the News), its radio programming is excellent. Politically, I agree with ingo on its seeming lack of independence. The irony is that the BBC World Service – an arm of the Foreign Office – broadcast news that was far more impartial an dbalanced than the domestic BBC. That was its appeal. The World Service was excellent and has been cut. Yet many – not all – of those clamouring for its destruction come from the ideological corporate Right, who would like to give everything to Fox et al. Gerald Kaufmann, for instance, doesn’t like the BBC and thinks it should be privatised and broken up. I have to say, I think that would be a mistake. I’m not sure ITV/C4/Fox et al are any more independent of imperialist elites than the BBC. It’s the pretence to objectivity which they all sport but which in the case of the BBC has become increasingly hypocritical which aners people. They are justifiably angry that the BBC News coverage – and that a great, if flawed, institution – has been turned into some sort of propaganda and also that TV programming has been dumbed-down. Ironically, in the early 1990s, when the dumbing-down began, John Birt, to some extent justifiably the bete noir of most on the Left, actually wanted the BBC to go upmarket, not downmarket. Sadly, he lost that particular battle. the BBC does a lot of work around the country with local communities, children, etc. and do a lot of training – most broadcasters cut their teeth with the BBC. It’s the biggest producer of radio-plays in the world. We don’t see that local, grassroots work, it’s not foregrounded. Commercial broadcasters don’t need to bother with any of that valuable work.
    .
    So, while equally angry about the propandistic aspects, on balance, I would not like to se the BBC go.

  80. That should have read, “I don’t tend to watch much of its news coverage now”. I’ve watched enough, though, to know why I don’t watch it.

  81. I don’t watch the BBC either. Or not much of it. And I sometimes listen to some of its radio broadcasting.
    .
    I don’t want to see it go because I have seen nothing that even comes close to being as good as it for what it is supposed to do.
    .
    I’d like to hear of viable alternatives but I won’t hear a bar of it if the likes of Prison Planet, Press TV, Russia Today, FOX, CNN, MSNBC etc… are offered in its stead. Clearly the BBC is better than all of those.

  82. ‘What have immigrants ever done for us?”
    “Well, they gave us doctors, nurses, Nobel-prize-winning scientists, writers, manual labourers, service workers, curry, couscous, spring rolls, music…etc…”’

    Immigrants are also executing the dodgy FOREX trades that the English can no longer be bothered to do, apparently-

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14950873

  83. Re: Ethnic cleansing
    .
    “Its use in the context of the UK today is ridiculous, blah, blah, blah…”
    .
    Sure. There used to be 8 million mostly English people in London, now there are about four, the other four being immigrants or the children of immigrants.
    .
    No prob!
    .
    But hey look at the brutal way those poor squirrels are being driven from their native habitat.
    .
    Actually, all that the use of terms like supremacist and racist indicates is that a liberal is losing the argument.
    .
    Now who is it

  84. On foreign policy there’s been almost no difference between Labour and the Conservatives from Blair on – but on domestic policy there are some big differences.

    The Conservatives opposed a national minimum wage, Labour introduced it. The Conservatives opposed devolution – without which Independence would probably be much further off – Labour introduced it. Labour also started direct peace negotiations in Northern Ireland that have brought relative peace there.

    The Conservative led coaliton have cut housing benefit and allowed social housing rents to go up to 80% of private sector ones – which effectively means making many people homeless in the street. They’re trying to force even many of the genuinely disabled off disability benefit. They’re going beyond Thatcher’s internal market and Brown and Blair’s PFIs in the NHS to pretty much outright privatisation of the NHS.

    That’s why a lot of people still support Labour as at least preferable to the Conservatives on domestic policies that can make the difference between being able to survive and homelessness and poverty for many people – and i can see their point. There hasn’t been much other choice for a long term.

    I chose to stop supporting Labour after 1997, but whether i’ve been right to or not, i really don’t know. I thought the Conservatives couldn’t be any worse than New Labour. I was wrong – they are – even if the Blairite wing of New Labour move right so fast they’re almost doing the Conservatives’ job for them in the long run on some issues.

    I tend to support independence mainly because the Scottish parliament has a more representative electoral system so gets better governments. Will the SNP continue to do a decent job now they have a majority or will they cave to big business and billionaires the way they did to Donald Trump? I’m hoping it’s the former and there are lots of things the SNP have done that i like (e.g ending contracting out of cleaners in NHS hospitals, investing in Green energy) but i’m concerned it could be the latter. We’ll see. Either way there needs to be some coherent opposition from someone in scotland – whether it’s Labour, Greens, Independents, conservatives or a mixture.

  85. @angry
    .
    For that image of the vagina wrapped in breadcrumbs, I forgive you everything.
    .
    You’re wrong about the BEEB though – you’re saying that if there is nothing to eat for miles around but camel dung then the best thing to do is acquire a taste for it. Nope. Mine is still pussy au gratin. Yours too, I bet.

  86. Joe Kane. I don’t want to get bogged down in your misinterpretations of what I wrote, but the debate was not about Scottish independence, but what would happen to England if Scotland was independent. But then you have to read the post, not just the comments, before going off on one.

  87. Rwanda: Millions of Tutsis dead due to being massacred because of who they were. Conclusion: Genocide.
    .
    Bosnia-Hercegovina: Bosnians, Serbs, Croats: Hundreds of thousands dead because of who they were. Conclusion: Genocide.
    .
    Jews: Six millions dead due to being massacred because of who they were. Conclusion: Genocide.
    .
    Roma: Two million dead due to being massacred because of who they were. Conclusion: Genocide.
    .
    White English: Almost zero massacred because of who they were. Conclusion: No genocide.
    .

    Conclusion from all these conslusions: Anyone who asserts that white English people are victims of genocide is totally wrong and is likely to adhere to a specific political agenda which one might describe as White Supremacist/ White Separatist. In other words, to put it simply and honestly, they want brown, yellow and black people out of England because, their argument goes, brown, yellow and black people are committing “genocide” against white English people. That political position might be defined a racist political position. It is also, I would argue, a somewhat bathetic position. The bathos is infused with irony and, I think, not a little sadness. It is difficult not to feel pity for those who hold such beliefs.

  88. Poor Suhayl, doesn’t seem to have much grip on the English language, which must be a handicap for a writer.
    *
    Still we can try once more to implant the original and authentic meaning of the word genocide in his mind:
    *
    “The crime of the [German Nazi] Reich in wantonly and deliberately wiping out whole peoples is not utterly new in the world. It is only new in the civilized world as we have come to think of it. It is so new in the traditions of civilized man that he has no name for it.

    It is for this reason that I took the liberty of inventing the word, “genocide.” The term is from the Greek word genes meaning tribe or race and the Latin cide meaning killing. Genocide tragically enough must take its place in the dictionary of the future beside other tragic words like homicide and infanticide. As Von Rundstedt has suggested the term does not necessarily signify mass killings although it may mean that.
    *
    More often it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.
    *
    Raphael Lemkin
    .
    [Mod: Poor Canspeccy, doesn’t seem to have much grip on HTML, which must be a handicap for a blogger.
    .
    Canspeccy: I’ve edited your comment to confine the italics to where they belong. The “i” tag is depreciated, the “em” tag should be used now. Please try to close your tags properly; you can’t close an “i” (or even an “em”) with a “slash a”, no matter how many times you try it.]

  89. I think that the arsehole who thinks it is down to ‘scotch c@nts’ and all his other misinformed bleating and girls blousing is lucky he can wipe his own arse, such is the likelihood of him being a window licker extraordinaire.

    A total tube.

    As to how ‘weak’ Scotland will be post Independence-just consider we are the only country in these Isles with the balls to not rely on our token little brits like blair to represent our political aspirations but have gone for actually changing this crap british state, and judging by what speccytwat says and his pishy view, it is in a right state.

    You think the rest of the uk is going to be some force to be reckoned with…….you are up your own butt I think.

    Bring it on!

  90. Duncan,
    *
    An independent Scotland might provide people in Scotland with better government than they would otherwise have, but there seems no obvious reason to think so.
    *
    Small states are not assured of good government. Consider Bahrain, Yemen, Kuwait, Abkhazia, and many others. They live under the paw of one of the great powers, who in exchange for compliance with their wishes, are ready to tolerate unlimited abuses of the people by their compliant puppets.
    *
    Perhaps you see an independent Scotland remaining within NATO and the EU. But in that case, what influence do you think Scotland would have in the councils of those organizations? I would say, none. Canada has “influence” in NATO (e.g., a Canadian general is running the rape of Libya), by being a US lapdog.
    *
    And if Scotland pulled out of NATO and the EU it would be in an unenviable position indeed, like Libya but much closer to the nearest NATO air bases from which planes may be dispatched at any time to press the requirements of BP or other commercial interests. Moreover, Scotland would be faced with demands for long term leases or compensation payment in relation to US/UK air, naval and radar installations in Scotland. It would, in other words, be occupied territory independent in name only.
    *
    And what exactly would the Scots do for employment? At present 70% of the Scottish economy is taxpayer funded. Without the SE of England to cover the cost, half the jobs in Scotland would be gone — all that crazy uneconomic forestry, the welfare bureaucracy, the prisons, the military expenditures. You might have a minimum wage, but practically no one would be able to to pay it. And that fine high road to London could very well be closed by an alienated and more nationalistic England.
    *
    Rather than pursue the petty, and narrow nationalism of Scotland, the Scots would be wiser, I suggest, to combine with their fellow Celts and Vikings throughout the British Isles to form a powerful independent nation, that can either assert some influence from within NATO and the EU, or survive independently of both.

  91. Ha! I see Suhayl Saadi has an ally in Kinghob, a master of the Scotch language, apparently.

  92. Canspeccy wrote

    “the forced disintegration of political and social institutions”

    Examples in the UK please?

    “of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion.”

    Anyone telling English or British people they can’t have their own culture, can’t speak English and can’t choose whatever religion they like?
    No-one.

    “It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity.”

    Any evidence that’s being done to any particular cultural group, rather than the billionaires and big firms stuffing it to everyone?

    You have absolutely no examples of anyone forcing British people not to speak english, not to be Christian or agnostic or whatever they want to be, telling them they can’t choose to be English or British or Welsh or Scottish?

    Ridiculous hyperbole based on nothing. There is no “genocide” of any form going on in the UK. The only group that might qualify are gypsies/travellers and even there it’s highly debatable

  93. “Ridiculous hyperbole based on nothing.”
    *
    Based on the replacement of people of British descent by a majority of immigrant origin in many London boroughs, in Leicester and other cities.
    *
    As for wiping out personal security, that is precisely what offshoring of jobs is doing, both in Britain and throughout the West. There are now around 9 million in Britain who are unemployed, employed part time when they need full-time work, or who have given up the search for work in despair.
    *
    Social institutions such as the church, marriage, schools that instil discipline, all are being undermined by the enforcement of political correctness and the official promotion of multi-culturalism that treats British culture as merely one of many, and one that has almost entirely disappeared in many urban areas.
    *
    Interesting to see how the truth so gets under liberal skins.
    *
    So much so, that DM entirely fails to respond to anything I said about his fatuous ideas on Scottish national independence.

  94. But the ultimate compulsion in the ethnic cleansing of the English in many areas of London and in large parts of other major cities including Leicester, Bradford etc., is the refusal of governments to stem the tide of immigration despite massive public opposition to it. This is totally contrary to the constitutional convention of the country.

  95. Mass immigration to Britain is, however, supported by powerful business interests because it lowers wages and almost totally destroys the bargaining power of unions.
    *
    Oddly, many of the positions most vigorously defended on this blog, ultimately prove to serve those business interests. Break-up of the nation with its inherent power to protect the interests of the people through measures such as capital controls, tariffs and immigration controls, destruction of unions, lowering of wages, silencing of legitimate and intelligent dissent through the imposition of strict rules of political correctness, i.e., curtailment of free speech.

  96. All of that neoliberalism affects peoples of all colours. But the hobby-horse is swinging and has taken over the thread, which was originally about other matters entirely. Race is not the central condundrum here, economics is. To attempt to turn the focus towards race arguably also serves elite interests, by divide-and-rule and by shifting the target away from those elites and their power structures. But that, largely, is the function of the Far Right – and many so-called liberals are complicit in that dynamic. On that other point, the dualism b/w ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ is a C19th one and remains dominant in the USA/North America. Many of the Left most certainly would not see themselvs as ‘liberals’.
    .
    Kinghob, take it easy, dude. Don’t let him get you mad. All of this, and more, has been written many times on this blog wrt Alfred’s questionable and incongruous views on race. It is important that such views be countered, firmly, rationally. One understands the fears and sense of loss that might be at the root of such views. But in the end, it is a circular dynamic that gets no-one anywhere. I suggest we consider moving on/ back to matters of English/Scottish independence, economics, etc. Movement of labour and capital are key questions, but they need to be decoupled from emotive, inflmammatory and arguably xenophobic discourses on ‘race’.

  97. Jonangus Mackay

    17 Sep, 2011 - 9:09 am

    Stroll on, Macduff. Part 1:
    .
    http://bit.ly/nQCZRI

  98. Jonangus Mackay

    17 Sep, 2011 - 9:10 am

    Stroll on, Macduff. Part 2:
    .
    http://bit.ly/rhIuHj

  99. I’m sure I heard on the radio there that they are about to pillage the Libyan nation’s bank. No word of elections or democracy.
    We have stepped up from just being mass murderers to being mass murderous thieves.
    Bring on the Scottish Independence Referendum so that we can dis-associate ourselves from these Banksters. I would invite other UK regions to join with us then we could build a wall round London, accept their refugees, and leave the monsters to tear each other apart.
    A clinical amputation may be the only way that our Nations can survive.

  100. I tend to be someone who thinks that globalisation is a trend and a tide that can’t be ordered back and those that think otherwise are making a complete Cnut of themselves.
    .
    I don’t believe in the sort of “open-the-doors-and-hang-on-to-your-hats” policy of immigration that doesn’t exist anyway and is used as a strawman against “liberals” or “Hitlerites” (because we all remember how much of a liberal Hitler was in a non-existent parallel universe!) and I do think there is room for sensible discussion about immigration. Yet anyone who thinks that UK immigration policy amounts to genocide of the “British race” or the “white race” or some other kind of made-up race has already disqualified themselves from a seat at the debating table as surely as anyone would for blaming inclement weather on liberals or their own abusive behaviour on the scotch.

  101. Not that I expect anyone to care, I do think I would be a little saddened if the Scottish left the union. I want them to stay for mostly sentimental reasons. So, I can say that if they have good reasons for leaving then they should do and I don’t need to come up with rationalizations for my emotional state.
    .
    I do agree with those who say that Scotland might find their independence a little more … er… thistlely than the Scots tend to pretend it will be but that’s for them to figure out. I expect a reunion within the next one hundred years whatever happens anyway.

  102. I agree, angrysoba. Very well put.

  103. Does anyone know what Simple Minds think of independence for Scotland? I ask it merely because their music formed the background for much of my coming-of-age and sometimes I find myself listening to songs like this and am unable to tell if it is really good or merely nostalgia:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi1KRgolnsI

  104. I don’t know what Jim Kerr’s or the other band members’ views on Scottish independence might be. They certainly were involved in Nelson Mandela’s celebrations at various times, which might suggest they are at the progressive end of the political spectrum. Apparently, Jim Kerr now lives in Sicily.

  105. As long as he (Jim Kerr) doesn’t start banging on about immigrants… (!)

  106. I was an XTC, Stiff Little Fingers, Undertones, Jam, Soft Boys and U2 man, myself. Since we’re talking ’80s music.

  107. CanSpeccy wrote “Social institutions such as the church, marriage, schools that instil discipline, all are being undermined by the enforcement of political correctness and the official promotion of multi-culturalism that treats British culture as merely one of many, and one that has almost entirely disappeared in many urban areas.”

    You’re talking as though culture and race were the same thing, as if cultues influencing each other and changing over time is the same as deliberate and enforced suppression of language, religion and beliefs. It’s not.

    Cultures are not monolithic unchanging blocs that only change due to people forcing them to – they’ve always interacted and influenced each other and changed.
    There is no “enforcement” of “political correctness” (whatever political correctness means – any definition at all here? )

    CanSpeccy wrote “As for wiping out personal security, that is precisely what offshoring of jobs is doing, both in Britain and throughout the West. There are now around 9 million in Britain who are unemployed, employed part time when they need full-time work, or who have given up the search for work in despair.”

    How does this apply any more to white Christians than to any other group? It doesn’t. Unemployment has risen due to cuts in public sector employment, deregulation of the private sector and slashing barriers to “free trade”, many of which were required to provide some protection against capital skipping countries at the drop of a hat.

    CanSpeccy wrote “Mass immigration to Britain is, however, supported by powerful business interests because it lowers wages and almost totally destroys the bargaining power of unions.”

    That’s true, but you pretend again that it’s completely uncontrolled – you know it’s not or we wouldn’t be wasting billions every year on “detention centres” with razor wire fences round them and forced deportations.

    It’s also true that some of the powerful business interests and billionaires use immigrants as a scapegoat in order to distract people from the fact that big firms and billionaires are being allowed to use tax avoidance and calls for lower taxes to avoid paying any significant amount of tax, forcing taxes up for everyone else. Notice The Sun (Rupert Murdoch) and the Daily Mail (Lord Rothermere) are constantly bashing immigrants and refugees.

    It’s also true that the flow of immigrants to the UK is due to the fact that the UK is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, with money flowing from Africa and other parts of the ‘developing world’ to it constantly, partly due to deliberate destabilisations like the overthrow of Lumumba in the Democratic Republic of Congo, leading to dictatorship and then civil war, both of which have been very profitable for ‘developed world’ companies.

    All immigration control is in reality arbitrary chaos because the flow of money from poor to rich countries is so vast – and the difference in freedoms and safety so vast – that there’s bound to be a huge flow of immigrants and refugees seeking safety, relative democracy and enough to eat. If you want to change that you need to allow the developing countries to develop – which means letting them protect and subsidise their agriculture and industry until it develops, the same way the developed countries did in the past.

  108. CanSpeccy wrote
    “Small states are not assured of good government. Consider Bahrain, Yemen, Kuwait, Abkhazia, and many others. They live under the paw of one of the great powers, who in exchange for compliance with their wishes, are ready to tolerate unlimited abuses of the people by their compliant puppets.”

    That’s true, but i don’t see Sweden or Russia having been made puppets of Russia any time recently. I suspect small countries on the North of the EU, part of it or not, are going to be relatively safe. I’d be for staying part of the EU probably. There are downsides to it but it’d give greater safety in the event of unforseen developments (e.g world war three)

    There are arguments for staying in the UK and arguments for independence, upsides and downsides of each. Independence wouldn’t solve all our problems and might cause us some new ones – but i doubt it’d be the end of the world.
    *
    “Perhaps you see an independent Scotland remaining within NATO and the EU. But in that case, what influence do you think Scotland would have in the councils of those organizations? I would say, none. Canada has “influence” in NATO (e.g., a Canadian general is running the rape of Libya), by being a US lapdog.”

    It’d have more choice than it has just now where our foreign policy is the foreign policy of Westminster governments who have done exactly what the President of the US told them to do from Thatcher on.

    “And if Scotland pulled out of NATO and the EU it would be in an unenviable position indeed, like Libya but much closer to the nearest NATO air bases from which planes may be dispatched at any time to press the requirements of BP or other commercial interests. Moreover, Scotland would be faced with demands for long term leases or compensation payment in relation to US/UK air, naval and radar installations in Scotland. It would, in other words, be occupied territory independent in name only.”

    As if Westminster governments don’t give BP and British Aerospace whatever they want, at the expense of all British taxpayers, including Scottish ones.

    “And what exactly would the Scots do for employment? At present 70% of the Scottish economy is taxpayer funded. Without the SE of England to cover the cost, half the jobs in Scotland would be gone — all that crazy uneconomic forestry, the welfare bureaucracy, the prisons, the military expenditures. You might have a minimum wage, but practically no one would be able to to pay it. And that fine high road to London could very well be closed by an alienated and more nationalistic England.”

    Less than a third of Scottish employment is in the public sector – and the proportion in the private sector is increasing. The PFIs (including PFI prisons) and the military expenditure are massive wastes of money in terms of job creation. Far more could be created by investing in new civilian technologies in energy, manufacturing and other sectors. The UK is currently buying an aircraft carrier from BAE which we won’t even have planes for. Arms manufacturing employment provides a fraction of the jobs relative to money spent of civilian manufacturing.
    *
    “Rather than pursue the petty, and narrow nationalism of Scotland, the Scots would be wiser, I suggest, to combine with their fellow Celts and Vikings throughout the British Isles to form a powerful independent nation, that can either assert some influence from within NATO and the EU, or survive independently of both.”

    Or maybe the Hittites or the Sea Peoples? There are no Celts left, nor any Vikings. The Anglo-Saxons and the Normans conquered them and banned speaking and teaching Gaelic long ago and now almost no-one speaks it. It’s only recently been promoted again – but that wasn’t genocide because they were all white and Christian, whereas refugees and migrant workers with different coloured skins and different religions are “genocide” of white people?

    I’m not really that worried – my culture includes some Celtic influence and i can study the history of the celts, but there are no Celts or vikings left.

  109. FAO Canspeccy:
    .
    I’ve had enough of you derailing threads onto immigration at every opportunity you can find. You are not going to convince people that “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” are appropriate terms for describing immigration.
    .
    Now, you can moderate yourself, or I’m going to declare you a troll. That means I’ll be asking people not to respond to such comments so that I can delete them without disrupting the intelligibility of the thread. Got it?

  110. Angrysoba
    “I tend to be someone who thinks that globalisation is a trend and a tide that can’t be ordered back and those that think otherwise are making a complete Cnut of themselves.”

    I prefer this:

    Qui sait peut être un jour la mondialisation
    Sera au musée, toutes les voies dégagées
    Vive la liberté, on ira tous à pieds

    –Wasis Diop

  111. Duncan, superlative posts, thanks: The definitive statement.

  112. “there are no Celts or vikings left”

    Ahem – I have mild Dupuytren’s disease which my doctor tells me is a Viking inheritance.

  113. Vronsky, yes, I always thought you had horns!

  114. Pedantry alert: the term is ‘martial law’ not ‘Marshall law’. Perhaps confused with the Marshall Plan post WWII.

  115. “I always thought you had horns!”
    .
    That, from the man who always wears a hat?

  116. Vronsky: “I predicted 20 years ago that continuing unconsidered opposition to independence could crush the Labour Party out of existence in Scotland. ” (http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/09/beauty-contest/#comments)
    .
    Oh, my prophetic soul.
    .
    http://tinyurl.com/5vv8bs9
    .
    (to beat the pay wall, click on the headline and then hit ‘escape’ before the story loads)

  117. Fada beo an ardchríocha na hAlban
    *
    Screw Edinburgh.
    *
    Vivre le Highlands libre. We’ll take the oil and let those lowland bastards freeze in the dark.
    *
    Hey, and nobody to challenge this — see Other Mod, above. LOL

  118. superb youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HbEUnd1iqQ

    “Central Banking History : William Stuart “

  119. Craig,
    I enjoy reading your insights on a range of issues and I too share your view of a single, secular state as the optimal outcome. Sorry if this is off topic but I am curious as to why you do not extend this view to the UK. I am a proud Scot but it’s not clear to me why, all things considered, breaking up the UK would be in the interests of all of its inhabitants. Scotland may happen to be blessed with (depleting) oil reserves but why shouldn’t the benefits of this be extended to all who live in the UK? Is Scotland’s prosperity not more secure in the longer term as part of a larger state? And, as I think Uzbek in the UK has commented on in the past, breaking up states has tended in the past to lead to more nationalist sentiment and less tolerance of others – would our relationship with our southern neighbours not be harmed as a result of full independence?

  120. My sentiments, Stuarty, but from south of the border we shouldn’t have.

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