How many people in Britain know of that daft maritime boundary? I’d guess there are not many.

BBC masters of lying

“She worked for years in the UK parliament for New Labour, in a Monica Lewinsky kind of way.” – That’s better Craig.

and Viva Commandante Chavez!

My wife insists on paying the licence fee, by direct debit, otherwise I’d cancel it. We get this stuff on a daily basis from the BBC in Scotland, and they barely even attempt balance any more.

The nightly broadcast ‘news’ in Scotland is bad for my blood pressure, so I skip it.

That border won’t stand any fair internationally adjudicated determination, as you say. It is another crime committed by the Labour party and Whitehall.

While there has been much mention of the GERS report and nowadays since re-opening of the Scottish Parliament it is produced by the Scottish civil service, for many decades, s, it was produced by those same mandarins, unionist and Tory by selection who produced the McCrone report – which was itself a plot and an attack on democratic expression – since the 1970s but probaly earlier the GERS reports were were complete fabrications and fakery, including such distortions as receiving whisky taxation at London offices of distillers, and thus counted as English revenue, and assigning operating costs of the London Underground system to Scotland!

Which is why I say that Iraq having seen in Iraq, conservatively estimated deaths of 1-2 million and refugees into neighbouring countries and further afield of at least 6 – 7 million. These people were considered no more than so many ants, likewise Scotland with a population of just 5-6 million in total, are held in the same expendable low regard. They already have turned the Solway coast into a depleted-uranium desert of mutated creatures, as at the northern tip with Dounreay and have placed the deadly timebomb of Sellafield on our doorstep. Westminster will not hesitate to unleash the residual-UK’s military against Scotland’s people, till every last drop of oil and gas has been stolen and used to line the pockets and bank balances of a rapacious international criminal elite.

Dear Mr. Murray,

could you please clarify the map annotations? Are the red line and arrow part of a diagram? If so, what are the axis labels? Or, are all lines (white, yellow, red) the actual borders and the arrow merely indicates the northwards shift? Also: do the 6000 miles mean a shift of that lenght, or is it actually square miles of area?

Thanks and greetings!

Cathryne Linenweaver

SCOTLAND’S FINANCES ARE STRONGER THAN THE UK’s.

https://twitter.com/YesScotland/status/309346267203526656/photo/1

“I was absolutely astonished that the BBC had managed to find the only French person in the entire world who is against Scottish independence, and that she was telling an outright lie about the position of the French government.”

Why on earth would the French government support Scottish independence? I mean like Salmond would be sending transport planes to help them out in Mali.

Twice in the last century France has relied on Britain to bail them out and twice Britain was there with the power to get it done why would France want to see a weakened Britain? Those Trident missiles on the Clyde are covering French backs as well you know.

I don’t think they want the Scots giving the Basques and ideas either.

The yellow is the 1987 boundary and the red is 1999. 6000 miles is short for 6000 square miles.

Fred do stop being silly, the French have more than enough nukes of their own and not under American control either, like ‘our’ WMD.

This week Call Kaye introduced their expert, a lawyer, Nick Freeman, who wants to bring Lothian & Borders Police into the Cardinal O’Brien case. What the BBC didn’t tell us about Nick Freeman is that he is in the business of making money and has a certain track record:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176874/Nick-Freeman-Judge-accuses-celebrity-lawyer-Mr-Loophole-sharp-practice-speeding-case.html

I am disgusted with the bias being shown by the BBC at present. It is a downright disgrace. We pay our licence fees so we deserve the same treatment as those opposed to Independence.

Great read, and I hope this gets shared as much as it can be as I see 0% chance of MSM reporting it!

I’m shocked! And The Captain Louis Renault Award goes to….should we start that BBC acronym contest again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1DEG6BWgp0

They say ‘Charity begins at home’. Well it seems so does screwing, and then on to your neighbour…

About ” Then I realised who she was – the former research assistant (and rather more) of New Labour minister and criminal invoice forger Denis Macshane. She worked for years in the UK parliament for New Labour, in a Monica Lewinsky kind of way. All of which the BBC hid, presenting her simply as a French Euro MP.” Isn’t Claire Perry the new Monica Lewinsky? Or maybe thats unfair on Ms Lewinsky.

Further to mine http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/scotland-for-chavez/#comment-397724 earlier, I have just come in and find the talking head of Agent Cameron saying ‘By sticking to our deficit reduction, we can keep interest rates low’ etc. He obviously plans to stick with Gideon’s Plan A and give us continuing doses of austerity. Out with the Bullingdon Boys and let’s find a President Roosevelt with a New Deal.

From the Bullingdon Bullshit Corporation -

David Cameron speech on the economy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21696239

except at the moment there is a blank screen saying

This content doesn’t seem to be working. Try again later.

Just like the British economy then!

Wonder who writes his speeches? He still has to use notes. He has not acquired Bliar’s neurolinguistic skills either.

“They say ‘Charity begins at home’. Well it seems so does screwing, and then on to your neighbour…”

I should add, although, these days its fashionable to go farther afield in order to keep the military-industrial-complex wheels turning through a triple-dip recession, whatever that means. What an evil world. Humanity has definitely taken a wrong-turn. Its important to observe that for what it is. Thanks for your contribution Craig.

“Fred do stop being silly, the French have more than enough nukes of their own and not under American control either, like ‘our’ WMD.”

I’ll stop being silly when you stop being fucking stupid.

Craig dismissed a BBC report purely on the grounds of the reputation of the person interviewed without giving any actual evidence that the facts were actually untrue. So I googled it to check and found that French interests lie with a united Britain, they would be very unlikely to support Scottish independence and the combined military and nuclear might was one of the reasons given.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/as-others-see-us-the-view-from-france.2013018885

I found no evidence that the French government would support independence, I looked, maybe you can find something I missed.

Craig, are you saying that this French Euro MP is French in more ways than one?

Mary’s latest post refers indirectly to the Bullingdon Club. And the PM’s membership of that club while at Oxford is often used as a stick to beat him with.

But why, when you think about it? The Bullingdon Club may not be everyone’s cup of tea, and it would certainly not admit any of the Eminences into its ranks, but at least it pays in full for any damage caused to property after its let’s say more spirited meetings. Which is more than the young London rioters did after their club outing…..

***********

La vita è bella, life is good! (pay for the damage!)

It’s actually even worse than you say. Better Together, the campaign for keeping Scotland in “the Union” spent yesterday morning trailing a leaked “top secret” Scottish government memo they had. When it was eventually published, it was a perfectly rational, calm, positive assessment, of the kind you’d hope a government would be doing and which is leading towards a white paper later in this year. However Better Together had added a fictional front cover with “TOP SECRET” stamped on it, making it look like a report, added 2 pages of propaganda of “what we’re saying this says” then covered it with post-it notes for the hard of thinking also saying what they think.

Guess what Newsnight Scotland ran with – that or the GERS figures story? They even said “leaked to us” which is odd given it was leaked to Better Together. So when they say “us” are they admitting they’re the same thing. Gordon Brewer waved the report, complete with their front page in front of the camera.

Guess what’s running on the front pages of all papers in Scotland today?

You can see the original propaganda – and there’s no other word for it – here: http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee08022eec_u9m6vd74f.pdf

I don’t watch the BBC news any more … stopped watching it after a BBC interview with Mark Regev during Operation Cast Lead … He and the interviewer stood on high ground overlooking Gaza with white phosphorous shells clearly exploding in the sky above Gaza and stated that Israel wasn’t using this type of battlefield munition. The BBC reporter said nothing. Disgraceful.

Now, to get back to Scotland – close to my heart because I’m Scots!

Well, can’t say the BBC coverage surprises me, even Newsnight now trots out ‘economists’ who are nothing of the sort – they’re members of right-wing think tanks, lobbyists for a neo-liberal agenda.

With regard to the maritime boundaries; I have a vague memory of this at the time … Didn’t Westminster argue that the maritime boundary should, essentially, be a continuation of the angle of the land boundary between Scotland and England? It did strike me as strange at he time but knowing little of international maritime law (to say the least!) I now find that the Westminster Government was telling porkies! Surprise, surprise.

Thanks, Craig, you’ve confirmed what I always knew – we’d be much better off without them!

Fred,

You ought to be aware, I’m sure you are, that the Herald is hardly a neutral source.

The French will, like the rest of Europe, accept whatever the Scots decide. Like the rest of the European establishment they would probably prefer the status quo.

But they also are sick and fed up of the UK. And several things are important to remember; fish, oil (yawn), and the north-west approaches.

As to the UK, it cannot be fixed from within. Tory, Labour and LibDem are all of a likeness. They are banker benefit societies. The SNP are a little better, but not much. But they won’t form a Scottish Independent government for more than one term, I’d bet.

We can start afresh, or nearly so. Without ‘a thousand years of British History’; of entrenchment of landed interests and elite greed.

OMG, for once I find myself in total agreement with Fred (12h34) ! Well, why not – he’s right.

Actually, I think I would almost welcome Scottish independence (and also the cession of Northern Ireland and even the independence of Wales if the wanted it). For one thing, it would solve the West Lothian question for once and for all.

However, I remain to be convinced that an independent Scotland would be financially viable, at least if it maintains its present social policies. Therefore, if the referendum is won, expect the Scottish government to attempt to squeeze the maximum financial gain out of the rest of the UK, by means fair or foul. If I were the suspicious sort, I might just see Craig’s post as a kind of preparatory signal in this regard. But I’m not, so I won’t.

***************

La vita è bella, life is good! (how do you say that in Gaelic)

I should add, that Independence for Scotland is one of the few hopes the English Left has of overcoming the corporate, neo-con domination of their own politics.

Once England faces the world with only its own resources and stops trying to be the main character in a Boys’ Own comic, it will, I am confident, rediscover its own greatness.

Habbabkuk (aka ONEIL), no doubt the same applies to the pedophiles in your Catholic church to which you belong. Bugger them and then pay for it right? Its all alright then isn’t it? Thank you for your confessions.

But the point that Craig is making that the UK/England books don’t balance.

“I remain to be convinced that an independent Scotland would be financially viable, at least if it maintains its present social policies.”

You might want to read the GERS report, particularly bearing in mind what’s in this article, and the fact it was actually designed as Westminster propaganda to convince Scots we couldn’t survive, yet still shows we could, easily.

MacShane aka Denis Matyjaszek has had more ‘puters than I have had hot dinners.

Yards and yards of the stuff.

Written evidence received by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmstnprv/635/63508.htm

Surely not true? If true, what bad taste and judgement Ms Pryce has. One liar after another.

The Daily Telegraph reports he is currently in a relationship with the economist Vicky Pryce.[11][64]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_MacShane

Wonder how the police investigation into his activities is doing? It started in January.

PLUS Something I did not know
On 8 September 2009, MacShane organised the first of a series of secret meetings between Liam Fox, Adam Werritty, Matthew Gould, Britain’s Ambassador to Israel, and in some cases MacShane himself and members of Mossad, with the intention of enlisting British support for an Israeli attack on Iran.[24][25

PLUS something I did know
MacShane was active in support of Israel and was Labour Friends of Israel policy chair. He said in a statement: "Clearly I deeply regret that the way I chose to be reimbursed for costs related to my work in Europe and in combating antisemitism, including being the Prime Minister’s personal envoy, has been judged so harshly."[49] However the Standards and Privileges Committee stated that the Commons had placed strict conditions and limits on funding MPs’ travel to Europe, MacShane was clearly aware of these rules, and concluded “Mr MacShane claimed in the way he did to ensure that his use of public funds for his European travel was not challenged” by sending misleading invoices to himself in order to claim the costs of travelling and to entertain European contacts.[6]:16,20–21

Fred: don’t wave your Charles & Di Anniversary Commemoration teacup at me like that, and watch you don’t poke yourself in the eye with that faded Jubilee bunting.

BBC Scotland have been traipsing round Europe recently looking for European politicians to diss the idea of Scotland in the EU. The politicians have been non-comittal (recognising this is a political issue that will be dealt with if need be at the time) but the BBC still report their views as being anti-Scotland. A number have complained that their views have been misrepresented (e.g. Lucinda Creighton of Ireland and Jean Asselborn of Luxembourg), but this is only reported on low-exposure sites like newsnetscotland.com. No retractions or corrections are offered by the BBC.

Yesterday we were also told by the BBC (and today by the print media) that they have discovered a ‘secret report’ by John Swinney of the SNP. This report was recently created and disseminated by Labour. It is based on a Scottish government briefing from a year ago, but rolled out yesterday to help deflect the facts of Scotland’s relative wealth as shown in the GERS figures. The report claims that Scotland will have various expenses as an independent nation, such as £600m to set up a tax office. What the report doesn’t tell us is how much Scotland already pays to run the UK tax system – HMRC costs roughly £4bn/yr.

They then told us that that GERS says Scotland runs a deficit, implying Scotland would be skint… but neglected to inform us the UK’s deficit is proportionally higher.

The BBC must think we button up the back. Hopefully the tipping point will come soon where nobody in Scotland will believe their political reporting any more.

Villager referred to Claire Perry the wannabe next female PM! More retweeting than tweeting. What’s her obsession with her followers and unfollowers? Desperate to be popular I suppose.
https://twitter.com/claire4devizes

She asked a question in PMQs yesterday about domestic violence.

Claire Perry (Devizes, Conservative)

Last year, more than 100 women were killed by men in the United Kingdom. We know that domestic violence happens behind doors across the entire country. Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity of international women’s day to pay tribute to the outstanding work of Wiltshire police in trialling new ways of reducing this appalling crime and to the victim support centre in Devizes, which provides services for those who suffer in my constituency?

David Cameron (Prime Minister; Witney, Conservative)

I am happy to do that. Fighting domestic violence is an important part of international women’s day, as my hon. Friend says. I commend not only the police in Wiltshire, but the local authority because it has done very good work to bring all the agencies together to ensure that there is a joined-up approach to cracking this difficult problem which, as she says, has often been hidden from view.

~~~

That would be the Wiltshire Police where a custody officer was caught on closed circuit TV throwing a woman to the ground in a police cell. He was suspended from duty and later reinstated.

My source in Salisbury tells me that her des res (reported as a £2.5m old rectory in one of the puff pieces about her) has been on the market for ages and remains unsold.

Thank you Craig for fighting this nonsense and highlighting the absurdity of our maritime boundary. Are you sure an independent Scotland wouldn’t start at Carnoustie?

Scotland’s Oil is the Elephant in the room the BBC and the Unionists are scared of. You can tell most of the people at the Beeb don’t make it past the Central Belt, Scotland’s oil is much more than a simple commodity such as coal, it has spawned a huge multi-layered industry, Aberdeen is now one of the worlds great oil centres, there is scarcely an oil field in the world that will not have some form of operation or project being ran from Aberdeen.

I also remember also being told as a wee boy in the 80′s that, ‘the oil’s going to run out soon, we can’t rely on it.’

This is another piece of propaganda that has become an established fact of Unionism. Yet a feasibility study by Aberdeen University last year has estimated there is still £1.5 Trillion worth of extractable oil to be exploited. And even that doesn’t take into account technological advances that will increase the yield percentage of any oil removed.

http://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/aberdeen-oil-and-gas-bonanza-with-1-5-trillion-still-under-the-north-sea/

So, why would any French people have any real opinion on Scottish Independence ?

Simply, because, as our enemies, they have been agitating for the breakup of the union and promoting the odious “Little man” politics of division for a few centuries.

Shame you are too stupid to realise this, or that your impartiality has been bought by the thought of you or your friends getting their snouts in the fat trough of yet another layer of Government.

United you stand, divided you fall.

Habba,

As Craig has indicated it is Westminster squeezing Scotland by fair means or foul, not the other way around. Please thoroughly examine the issue of oil revenue before making any bold statements on Scotland’s financial feasibility.

Yes some difficult decisions would have to be made, but that’s part of the appeal of Independence for me, encouraging us to grow up as a nation and remove the chip from some of my countrymen’s shoulder.

ps – Tha Betha Math (life is good Scotland)

@Fred

“Craig dismissed a BBC report purely on the grounds of the reputation of the person interviewed without giving any actual evidence that the facts were actually untrue. So I googled it to check and found that French interests lie with a united Britain, they would be very unlikely to support Scottish independence and the combined military and nuclear might was one of the reasons given.”

Even supposing that I believed everything that I read in the Herald, the support or otherwise of the French government for Scottish Independence is totally immaterial – and rightly so.

Actually, I live in France, and, to my knowledge, little has been printed in the papers about it. One search turned up an news article in Libération just stating that there would be a referendum – not much more. Interesting to note, however, that they seem to think that Scotland is a “province” of England. If that’s the extent of their knowledge of Scotland any opinions they have aren’t worth noting.

I actually remember when the government altered the sea boundaries. Interestingly, the government of the day was condemned by the UN and if I’m correct ordered to reinstate Scotland’s boundaries. This included countries such as USA an Russia, so universal condemnation.

Halfwit – so the French are “our” enemies! What “our” do you mean – they are not the enemies of the Scots – unless you know different. If you mean enemies of England i’m astonished as England is so lovable. Like your pseudonym!

I can only praise the BBC for their unbiased news reporting. I wholeheartedly agree with the views expressed about the Scottish. I hope they get their independence so they no longer freeload off the English.

But do Scotland want to be in the Eu if they voted yes? They would still likely get shafted by the EU corporations if they chose to be…

Vicky Pryce has just been found guilty of perverting the course of justice.

Taimoshan, by our, I simply mean us, the British, Scottish, English, Welsh, inhabitants of these fair Isles. I do not subscribe to retarded Racist politics our enemies use to try and separate us. Think about it.

If you seriously believe that the French have some magnetic attraction to all things Scots, I would suspect you are deluded. They have always tried to cause us domestic problems as part of our ongoing battle with them.

Tied to this is the risible lie that Scotland will be better off, no, it will be ruined, unless you are one of the thousands of scumbags hoping to get fat jobs or financial gains from the new layer of Government.

BBC Scotland has got to the point they don’t even bother trying to pretend they are neutral any more. They seem to have an ‘I can do what I want’ attitude now, and are almost taunting people as if to say what are you going to do about it.

CE
7 Mar, 2013 – 2:05 pm
“Habba,

As Craig has indicated it is Westminster squeezing Scotland by fair means or foul, not the other way around. Please thoroughly examine the issue of oil revenue before making any bold statements on Scotland’s financial feasibility.”

CE, thank you for setting out some more homework for our Habitual Babbler. I said much the same thing to him above about the books not being in balance. He usually sits here bombarding people with rhetorical questions and, once in a way, when he opens his mouth he usually gets it wrong. His life is so good that he cares less for the trodden or for injustice. He is a copy-and-paste Establishment parasite delighted with the status quo. I ask what can a man like that create or contribute.

Lets see what he has to say on the matter once he’s done his assignment.

Hullo Craig, good to see you up to speed on the true financial position for Scotland….but its actually worse, (in the sense that being robbed of a million is worse than being robbed of a thousand). Total typical Scottish tax take; about 54 billion. Scottish government hand out, about 34 billion. So 20 billion “Spent in UK on behalf of Scottish people”…plus about 8-12 billion a year in lost oil and gas revenues. plus Scottish pound would be a petro-currency, so would need severe deficit budgeting to keep its value from soaring like the Swiss Franc……(can easily stand indefinite decifits of about 10 billion a year, its a fiat petro-currency) I make all that about 40 billion thats missing, if the vote is no. plus an independent sovereign state could sell off some blocks of oil fields and raise 100 billion for a sovereign wealth fund to develop Scotland economically…….it goes on and on./….what is happening at the moment is sheer thievery.

If I were you I would keep quiet about your oil wealth – you are likely to get invaded by NATO if you are not careful. Preceded, of course, by Obama declaring Scotland has become a hotbed of Al Qaeda activity. And then the drones arrive…

Halfwit, so much wrong in such a short statement.

Scotland will be losing, not gaining a layer of government.

As for your laughable claims Scotland will be ‘ruined’, have you even read Craig’s post? Our Oil reserves(the largest in Europe), indicate that would have to have an unheard of level of misgovernance for us to be ‘ruined’.

If anything will be ruined, it will be the Treasury’s cash register.

I’ve lived the first half of my life in Germany and the second half in Scotland and even 30 years ago in Germany there were local German Newspaper articles about the fact that Scotland would be doing much better outwith the UK – if even they could do the sums and figure out that independence would be an advantage for Scotland I ask myself why it is taking the Scots such a long time to do the same. Germany is still all for Scottish independence from what I hear, so I hope Scotland will finally go for it. I know which way I’ll be voting! I saw the figures 30 years ago in a German Newspaper and they looked convincing even then.

Scotland currently has an extra burden to carry too. Scotland was allocated a share of that UK deficit, which was added to the nation’s debt balance, on a per-capita basis rather than being related to Scotland’s own finances. The per-capita share amounted to £11.4 billion, whereas as we’ve seen the actual Scottish deficit was £10.7 billion. In other words, £730 million that was not spent by or on Scotland has been added to our share of the UK’s crippling debt, in just one year.

This is an invisible annual subsidy by Scotland to the rest of the UK. It’s a bit like going out to lunch with your friend and getting a £9 main course, while your friend gets one that costs £11. When the bill comes your friend insists you split the bill at £10 each, thereby charging YOU £1 for the meal THEY ate.

That might be fine once in a while, but if it went on every week for 30 years, and all the time your friend was calling you a scrounger living off their money who should be grateful to be allowed to eat with them – after all they take you to all the nice places: the UN Security Council canteen, NATO’s sandwich shop, etc – then you might start to think it was time to get your own lunch.

“I ask myself why it is taking the Scots such a long time to do the same.”

Propaganda as we’re seeing now repeated over and over again, “you’re too wee, too poor, too crap, subsidised etc, etc”. It’s utter bollocks and people in Scotland are beginning to see through it. Which is why the media and BBC are going into overdrive with relentless lies, spin and negativity, about our country, our government, our electorate and people in Scotland themselves.

I hope to God that approach doesn’t win them the referendum next year because the idea of such lying, negative, abusive people still being in charge of us is unthinkable. They are essentially breaking what last bonds of trust and goodwill remained here.

Mary,

How about Bulldung Babble Conspiration?

I have never used that word ‘conspiration’ and even my spellcheck doesn’t like it. but it exists.

Definition of CONSPIRATION

1
: the act or action of plotting or secretly combining
2
: a joint effort toward a particular end

I think we have to get over the taint of the word conspiracy. And break through the barriers of truth and justice, which seems to be the most difficult thing in the World.
—
“There seems to be so little justice in the world. Philosophers have talked a great deal about justice. The social workers talk about justice. The average man wants justice. But is there justice in life at all? One is clever, well placed, with a good mind and is good looking; having everything he wants. Another has nothing. One is well educated, sophisticated, free to do what he wants. Another is a cripple, poor in mind and in heart. One is capable of writing and speaking; a good human being.

Another is not. This has been the problem of philosophy with its love of truth, love of live. But perhaps truth is in life, not in books, away from life, not in ideas. Perhaps truth is where we are and in how we live. When one looks around, life seems so empty and meaningless for most people. Can man ever have justice? Is there any justice in the world at all? One is fair, another is dark. One is bright, aware, sensitive, full of feeling, loving a beautiful sunset, the glory of a moon, the astonishing light on the water; one sees all that and another does not. One is reasonable, sane, healthy and another is not. So one asks, seriously, is there justice in the world at all?

Before the law all are supposedly equal, but some are `more equal’ than others who have not sufficient money to employ good lawyers. Some are born high, others low. Observing all this in the world there is apparently very little justice. So where is justice then? It appears that there is justice only when there is compassion. Compassion is the ending of suffering. Compassion is not born out of any religion or from belonging to any cult. You cannot be a Hindu with all your superstitions and invented gods and yet become compassionate you cannot. To have compassion there must be freedom, complete and total freedom, from all conditioning. Is such freedom possible? The human brain has been conditioned over millions of years. That is a fact. And it seems that the more we acquire knowledge about all the things of the earth and heaven, the more do we get bogged down. When there is compassion, then with it there is intelligence, and that intelligence has the vision of justice.”
J Krishnamurti

The link for site from where above quote extracted and in case anyone is interested in digging deeper into K.

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php

Nice one Villager. BBC. I know a little of Krishnamurti and will look further on your link. His humanity comes across in the quote you gave.

I am feeling sorry for Vicky Pryce. I know she lied but she has been betrayed first by her husband and now by people within the LD party such as Miriam Clegg who are denying that they knew what had gone on. A shallow self serving bunch if ever there was one.

Look at the treatment Clegg is allowing to be handed out to David Ward The LDFoI will reeducate him. Jenny Tonge is in the wilderness. Menzies Campbell supported what Straw said about secret courts. Another nasty party.

Israel Flag Wavers Plan to ‘Re-educate’ MP David Ward
by Stuart Littlewood
Tuesday, March 5th, 2013

If reports are true, UK Liberal Democrats have appointed the pro-Israel lobby as ‘probation officers and educators’. They will judge if David Ward is ‘salvageable’ and lay down precise language rules.

http://www.deliberation.info/israel-flag-wavers-plan-to-re-educate-mp-david-ward/

CE 7 Mar, 2013 – 2:05 pm
Habba,
ps – Tha Betha Math (life is good Scotland)

He’s having you on, Habbabkuk.
Put “Lan dhen cac” after your name. Trust me.

How about this move for bare faced cheek? In my opinion, those making the profits should take the responsibility for their staff pensions, whatever their previous status.

Ex the log from Keep Our National Health Service Public
http://www.keepournhspublic.com/newsroundup.php

Health Service Journal
DH opens door to NHS pension for private sector

Private companies providing NHS services are being allowed access to the NHS pension scheme ahead of anticipated Treasury action to widen eligibility, HSJ has learned. The Department of Health confirmed it had begun issuing legal directions to allow profit-making firms to access the scheme for staff transferred from the NHS.

The approach is being used as an interim solution while the Treasury considers implementation of its Fair Deal policies, it announced last July. Under the Fair Deal proposals, public sector staff who are moved to the private sector under outsourcing arrangements would be allowed to retain their public sector pensions.

The Treasury’s most recent consultation on that proposal closed earlier this month, but it is not clear when it will be implemented. However, HSJ understands firms are already being given access to the NHS pension scheme by the DH, which has been issuing legal directions to allow companies in. The department has been able to give hospice and social enterprise staff access to the pension scheme since 1967 under the Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act. Until recently it had not been used for profit-making organisations.

When the DH used a direction in March last year to give access to Virgin Care community services in Surrey, the company had to set up a social enterprise called VH Doctors to employ its 2,500 new staff. However, HSJ understands the DH has changed its policy in recent months. Sources with knowledge of the process estimated up to a dozen firms had already sought access under the new approach. It means the arrangement developed for the Surrey community services would no longer be necessary. The change is likely to be welcomed by independent sector providers.

Companies have previously said changing the pension system is essential for creating fair competition for NHS contracts. Neil Bhan, partner at healthcare lawyers DAC Beechcroft, said: “It helps to level the playing field for private sector contractors in competition with NHS providers, which have historically been burdened with much higher pension costs because they have been unable to access the NHS pension scheme. As a consequence, this will undoubtedly promote competition within the NHS market.” A separate government-led review of access to the pension scheme, which could recommend extending it to independent sector staff who have not transferred from the NHS, is ongoing. A DH spokesman confirmed it had been giving access to the scheme to private companies.

Read more … from Health Service Journal. Registration required.
http://www.hsj.co.uk/news/dh-opens-door-to-nhs-pension-for-private-sector/5055398.article

Levelling the playing field indeed Mr Bhan and giving the privateers a dozen free goals first off.

Predictable contents of his CV http://www.dacbeachcroft.com/people/directory/neil_bhan

6 posts from Mary so far (out of 54 total), all of which have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Are you a disrupter, just providing light relief, or incontinent?

The news presenters are saying with a straight face that the BoE have decided today not to print any more money, adding helpfully that £375billion ‘has been put into the British economy’ so far. YCNMIU.

@ CE (14h05)

“Please thoroughly examine the issue of oil revenue before making any bold statements on Scotland’s financial feasibility.”

I believe I wrote as follows:

“However, I remain to be convinced that an independent Scotland would be financially viable,”

That’s hardly a bold statement, is it?

It can count.

@ A Node Re. “Lan dhen cac”. Does ‘cac’ have the same meaning as the English word?

and now 7 from Mary (still O/T).

Craig; sorry to be o/t but many are wondering about Jon’s absence.

Also; anyone seem Komodo? I miss the rank odor.

“If I were you I would keep quiet about your oil wealth – you are likely to get invaded by NATO if you are not careful. Preceded, of course, by Obama declaring Scotland has become a hotbed of Al Qaeda activity. And then the drones arrive…”

Al Qaeda in Scotland? I doubt it. They may run rings round the US Marines but they’ll think twice before taking on a Glasgow car park attendant again.

Craig The readers of your blog would rather you didn’t have a heart attack and especially not over anything the Brutish Brainwashing Conspiration says.(thank you Villager).I don’t know Scotland well though I spent 2 happy years in my youth in Dundee. This next is o/t but no-one has posted anything on the Newsnight Iraq charade so here goes.
Letter to: Kirsty Wark @ Newsnight

Mss Wark The numbers of Iraqi dead 1991-2013 is not 100,000 or 650,000 but somwewhere in the region of 2,500,000.This figure combines the 1,000,000 starved to death by the sanctions with the 1,500,000 who died 2003-2013.I do think Hans von Sponeck’s figures are the most trustworthy don’t you?
Even by the B.B.C.’s war mongering standards the program and interview with bliar was a bloody insult to the people of Iraq and the Genocide and torture we inflicted on them.1 hour to encapsulate 10 years of agony. As to our war criminal we were presented with the same slippery evasions and “Rumsfeld speak” unknown unknowns and a barrage of what iffery.Torturing Tony gets madder by the day, it is not just the self justifying cant and the overweening ethnocentric arrogance but the really spooky claim to be a holy warrior purging Islam of Whahabi militants,Whahabism was not mentioned of course as that would have meant opening the whole Saudi connection.Or should I say can of worms? I realise the Establishment is desperate to detoxify the “bliar brand” but unfortunately the only way that can be done is to try him,preferably at Nuremberg,but at The Hague if necessary.I enclose some material and photos of the children of Fallujah. Would you like your grandchildren to be born with these deformities?

yours truly, Michael Culver. P.S. I see Prescott has jumped ship.

I think Habbakuk will do well to remember these very wise words of Scott:

“Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!”

“Pryce guilty: The campaign by vengeful wife and ‘batty’ barrister”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/pryce-guilty-the-campaign-by-vengeful-wife-and-batty-barrister-8524839.html

The emails are quite damning:

“From Vicky Pryce

Sat 12 March, 9:21:20

Also of course would love to have someone link CT (Carina Trimingham) with leaking Eastleigh/Liverpool/licence points info for the press

….Other possibility would be to tell NC (Clegg) or his close associates (having coffee with Miriam this pm) that papers are on to him as CT seems to have leaked it”

She’d previously tried to implicate one of Huhne’s workers and had been caught out on that. In many ways her conspiracy to pervert the course of justice is on an altogether greater scale than that of Chris Huhne himself.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/pryce-guilty-the-emails-between-vicky-pryce-and-sunday-times-reporter-isabel-oakeshott-8524751.html

Habba,

For me any questions concerning the economic viability of an Independent Scotland are bold!

The economic argument is over. If you take as Craig has, the correct size of Scottish oil reserves, Scotland is a massive net contributor to the UK.

—————————

Yes thanks for that MFTAJ(quite a snazzy acronym you’ve got yourself there), is there any subject where you won’t feel the urge to repetitively mention your usual targets, and of course ‘the Jews’?

Yes, Mary, and the first two mean “full of.”

@ CE (17h23)

1/. re Scotland : well, if the Scots think they’ll be better off out of the Union then they should go for it. They will then see, with the passage of time, whether they’re right or not: if they’re right, then well and good and England/Wales and N. Ireland will just have to live with it; if not, there would, I hope, be no question of them later asking to rejoin the Union. Sounds fair.

2/. re Mary : since Mary never responds to defend herself, I’ll pretend to be one of the other Eminences and say on her behalf : “oh, I’m not against the Jews, just the Zionists”.

“Scotland was allocated a share of that UK deficit, which was added to the nation’s debt balance, on a per-capita basis rather than being related to Scotland’s own finances.”

Well if Scotland goes its separate way under the international laws of succession national debt (and moveable assets) are divided up according to population size. ie on a per capita basis. If you want an example look at what happened when Czechoslovakia split.

Mary writes (16h19)

“I am feeling sorry for Vicky Pryce.

My God, I never thought I’d read words like that from Saint Mary about the wife of anyone she disapproves of.

But remember Mary : truth and justice!

“Well if Scotland goes its separate way under the international laws of succession national debt (and moveable assets) are divided up according to population size. ie on a per capita basis. If you want an example look at what happened when Czechoslovakia split.”

Oh, Kempe, please don’t be a party pooper, don’t spoil the dream!

Re; the posts above which mention possible reactions to an independent Scotland being allowed to (re) join the EU, don’t be too sure that all of the EU member states would be in favour (the decision would need unamity under the present Treaty).

By way of background – 5 EU member states have still not recognised the independence of Kosovo, and Serbia is not even a member of the EU: Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Slovakia and Spain. Work out the reasons for yourselves.

Herbie Peachey of the Independent seems to have the knife out for Pryce. He has written ceaselessly about her and the case.

Huhne told the first lie. She corroborated it, whether unwillingly or willingly. Then years passed until she was spurned for Trimingham. Not surprised she wanted his downfall. Now both are fallen people very much like players in a Greek tragedy.

Two old saws come to mind. ‘Tis a sin to tell a lie’ and ‘Adultery thou shalt not commit, no good comes of it’ or similar.

If Huhne did force her to have an abortion, that is a pain and grief that will live with her for all her life. I do feel sorry for her.

No support forthcoming from senior LDs for either party today apart from a little for Pryce from Hughes.

Could the Inquisitor General please keep his/her opinions about me to himself/herself. I am not accountable to him/her and am in no way obliged to respond to his/her inane questioning.

Kosovo? That is probably because Kosovo is historically part of Serbia. This is Scottish independence we are talking about, not Lancashire independence. Indeed the UK govt have already agreed to abide by te referendum result, so there will be no Kosovo style controversies here.

None of us can know for sure if Scotland will be required to leave the EU or not, but Scotland already fulfils all EU criteria, is already in the EU, and kicking it out would create more problems for the EU than keeping it in, subject to negotiation. On the other hand, Cameron is talking about an in-out referendum for the EU in 2015 that the UKIP think they can win, so it seems clear where the greatest threat to EU membership is coming from.

About that buzzing in the ear some here complain about. There are some posts I just don’t read. Skip down the comments with an eye or two on the left-hand side. When you see a buzz-emitting moniker, scroll it off the top of the screen. Simples!

Fred, loved the al-whatsit comeback, above! LOL.

I havn’t paid a licence fee in years and will continue to not do so.
Every time I get a demand, I send it back with owner overseas for a year scribbled on it..they never check…If I buy a new tv. I just put the sddress of my fathers house down…he is a pensioner and excempt from the licence…it gives me some small satisfaction to mentally shove the tv licence fee up the BBC’s arse !

“Could the Inquisitor General please keep his/her opinions about me to himself/herself.”

‘Itself’, more probably. You’re one of the main sources of information here (outside Craig himself, of course) and one of the reasons I visit. Which is why Habba has been tasked with attacking you. Cold comfort, I know – but it is a compliment, of sorts.

The claimed 1987 border, above, is nothing of the sort. There are two possible borders – one which takes a line perpendicular to the coast at the land border or one which is a continuation of the direction of the land border.

Until we have independence no one can say where the maritime border between Scotland and England lies. That would be settled either by negotiation or arbitration after independence.

@ Craig P (18h36) :

“Kosovo? That is probably because Kosovo is historically part of Serbia.”

I don’t think it is this which has governed the attitude of those 5 EU member states whi have not recognised the independence of Kosovo; their position would have been the same whether Kosovo had been Serbian for 600 years, 300 years or only since 1918. 4 of the 5 EU members I mention are themselves in fact relatively recent creations as presently constituted and this makes them especially sensitive, I’d suggest, to any idea of breakaway. The 5th, Spain, is an older state but has to deal with particularly aggressive separatist movements.

“and kicking it out would create more problems for the EU than keeping it in, subject to negotiation.”

That’s probably true, but you know that acceding to certain legal theories, it wouldn’t actually be a question of kicking out Scotland or of keeping it in; Scotland, being no longer part of an entity which is part of the EU (ie, the UK), would be deemed as having “left” the EU of its own volition, hence the need for application for entry and hence the risk of problems from certain other member states.

Mary, at 18h21, says of me :

“Could the Inquisitor General please keep his/her opinions about me to himself/herself.”

Why the devil should I? You continually bombard this blog with your opinions about people, whether to adulate them (George Galloway, Hugo Chavez…) or, more usually, to damn them, using whatever trick you can find (including guilt by marrriage – example of Claire Perry).

So stop bleating piteously as if you’re a nanny-goat who’s received a mild kick. The sheer viciousness and obsessional nature of most of your posts (example : it’s the Zionists!) would deserve a whack with a good stick rather than the mild kicks I administer.

********

I understand from Vronsky’s post that Mary is one of his “main sources of information”. I suspect he’s just teasing, but if he isn’t – then poor sap!

La vita è bella, life is good (despite Mary)

“How many people in Britain know of that daft maritime boundary? I’d guess there are not many.”

Which maritime boundary? There seems to be more than one.

There is the 1987 boundary which outlines where legal jurisdiction starts and ends and there is the 1999 boundary which outlines fisheries areas I think. There is a map in the legislation which looks somewhat different to the map Craig posted.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1126/note/made

I printed it off and checked with a pair of compasses and it does appear to conform to the accepted method of every point on the line being equidistant from the nearest point in each country.

I’ve seen nothing in the 1999 act which says it replaces the 1987 act so I assume both stand.

If either of these lines would end up being the EEZ boundary in the event of Scotland becoming independent I wouldn’t like to say.

The reason the line ends up north of Dundee is because Britain does not run north south. Go due south from John O’Groats and you end up in Wales. The part of the coast where the border is is practically NW to SE.

How the Scots fare in and after the 2014 referendum will be a highly informative experience for all those posting here, whether Scots or not. If a No vote appears it will certainly have been forced by the media, most especially the BBC. Most nationalists expect this to lead to a quick removal of powers from Holyrood, perhaps its complete abolition (note the advance of UKIP, for whom this is public policy). It’s impossible to guess what the Scottish reaction to this would be, but there would be one.

If there is a Yes vote then I fear Cryptonym is right – there will be military intervention. First step by Westminster would be to declare that they do not recognise the result (stuff the Section 30), pushing the ball into Salmond’s court. Alex won’t, can’t shrink from UDI. Then you will see at close hand exactly what sort of government you have. Sectarian false-flags à la Omagh will be first up, followed by tanks on the street a peace-keeping force.

So is there a “Head Office” which oversees this propaganda, how and by whom is it staffed, etc? It is said such an outfit exists within the Pentagon, that concocts the timely “saving the Muslims of Benghazi” type of spin (when it was a CIA organised Al-Qaeda Group that attacked gaddafy right from the onset!) , which then ends up being publicly mouthed by Obomber and Co. The one hour DST difference on 911 they forgot at the Pentagon, was presumably the reason why Helen Boadens then girlfriend read out the note re the premature collapse of WTC7, on the BBC. But the unspoken concerted propaganda sync between the gavin esler types, entirely unscripted or communicated amongst themselves, may only be explained by the Theory of Barracuda?!

Apologies, O/T

A fierce letter sent last Friday from WikiLeaks ‘ambassador’ Joseph Farrell to Jemima Khan in response to her strange attack on Assange in the New Statesman has been leaked to Pastebin:

http://pastebin.com/rrhqvJ5Q

Well, that’s telling her then.

Vronsky,

I normally think you talk a great deal of sense, especially concerning the indy debate, but I fear you misguided here. With doubt the establishment has focused all it’s propaganda efforts to neutralise the Independence movement, but in the result of a YES vote, I feel they would be left with no choice but to accept the democratic will of the Scottish people.

Arbed; I wonder why it always surprises me when I find there is little airspace between the political animals and the greedheads who never tire of exploitation. Jemima was either used, or is a user. Her failure to return JA’s calls could be evidence of a conscience, I suppose.

Why was this letter not in the public domain, like her open letter? (well she has a convenient soapbox). I should think it would be found in Wikileaks or Justice for Assange, at least.

My dear chap…thought you were still swanning around in Switzerland…coming down tomorrow…be there late afternoon….replenish bottles, gird loins, inform Cameron that Uncle Frazer is on the way….

That’s a very good letter, Arbed.

Not only does it demolish the account given by Jemima, but it also demolishes all the propaganda of that type which you see regularly in media. This is why I wasn’t convinced by what Jemima had to say. It accorded too much with the repetitive media narrative and was I suspect written by someone else on the staff of the NS.

It’s great too that it demolishes DAGs effort.

Meanwhile, Wikileaks has more to tell us about what the American terrorists have been up to.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/wikileaks-has-more-us-secrets-assange-says-20130305-2fihd.html

Thanks Craig for once again highlighting this high seas banditry. For those who have not seen it, BBC Alba made a brilliant documentary “Diomhair’ which is now on Youtube (gaelic, with English subtitles). It tells of how for over half a century, UK parties resorted to spying and sabatoge to discredit the SNP, and to sharing a common agenda- stop Scotland from becoming independent. Its time for a re-make methinks.

JA has been revisiting the undisclosed docs for a while, but I didn’t understand the reasoning, until I saw that, Herbie.

Someone has to assist our underclass of whistleblowers, and I am happy to see Manning’s plight receives some consideration.

Fred
7 Mar, 2013 – 12:34 pm

“I found no evidence that the French government would support independence…”

Well Fred you wouldn’t if you rely on Herald Scotland for your information
.
It is as biased as the BBC.

What about us diagonal drilling into your oil? The 45 degree angle of the oil rigs might be a bit of a giveaway I suppose.

Mad Mel is on QT. What’s the betting for an attack on Hugo Chavez and even Julian while she’s at it?

07/03/2013 22.35

Duration: 1 hour

David Dimbleby chairs Question Time from Dover. On the panel are Conservative cabinet minister, Ken Clarke MP; Labour’s shadow education secretary, Stephen Twigg MP; Diane James, UKIP candidate in the Eastleigh by-election; Bob Crow, general secretary of the RMT union; and Daily Mail columnist Melanie Phillips.

That make’s two female racists then. Ms James does not like Bulgarians or Romanians coming here due to the crime they commit.

Arbed, you are a gem as is that letter. Thank you for pulling it out for us! That woman, who gets attention solely because she was born a Goldsmith deserves to be humbled. Strange that she threw away all her realisation and respect for what Wikileaks does and Julian’s personal courage to make that happen. I am glad that it is all out in the open. The only question now is how to get everybody to read such a, necessarily, long letter.

Btw i am cognisant that i owe you a response from the last chat we had. Thank you for clarifying and i did understand you, eventually. I hesitated to respond to you immediately because when it comes to Mohan Das Gandhi, i had to have a think about the issue of his sleeping with young girls in order to test his own celibacy. But what about those poor young girls? I still don’t know what to make of it.
—
CE, i hope you do read that email that Arbed linked to, just for context to Jemima’s actions. I’m not expecting you to change your mind re Assange, yet.

As this question comes up frequently, i am pasting an extract from the subject email:

“I explained to you how the argument that “he is no more vulnerable to
extradition to the US from Sweden than he is from the UK” is a red
herring. I explained why the US had not already requested his
extradition from the UK, because this would create a case of competing
extradition requests that the Home Secretary would have to judicially
review and prioritise one over the other, thereby creating political
embarrassment for a major ally whichever way the decision went. I cited
the US Ambassador’s own admission that the US would wait to see what
happened with the Swedish case before they made a move. I was careful
to explain this with Jennifer Robinson present to add a legal
perspective if needed. However, in spite of this explanation, you
allowed this claim not only to go into your article but also to remain
in Gibney’s film – expressed in remarks made by Baroness Helena Kennedy
QC that have been misleadingly edited to remove their proper context.
She has since said that she “did not expect that he [Gibney] would
fillet my interview” and also says “I regret thinking I could present a
sensible perspective”.
—
Btw, Arbed do you know where one can find Assange’s defence committee’s response to DAG’s piece?

Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
7 Mar, 2013 – 12:49 pm

“I remain to be convinced that an independent Scotland would be financially viable, at least if it maintains its present social policies.”

Again Habbabkuk you make statements without any justification or logic or explanation for what you say.

If you are not “convinced that an independent Scotland would be financially viable…”

Tell us why.

Craig re Jemima, exactly my sentiments as included in my comment written independently of yours as i took a long time over it due to parallel distractions.

I put this info about the Herald Scotland on the preceding thread by mistake.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/scotland-for-chavez/#comment-397873

Weary. I was 45 mins waiting to be answered on a call to the BT call centre in India. In the end a lovely polite young man called Pratik sorted out the problem. Most charming. That was after half an hour waiting for a chat line service to be answered! They transferred me to India. I am sure that British Telecom could be giving some jobs to the unemployed here.

The BT woman throughout said ‘We are extremely busy. Your call will be answered as soon as an agent is available.’ Thankfully there was no musak only the ringing tone.

“That woman, who gets attention solely because she was born a Goldsmith deserves to be humbled”

Good grief. I can’t see Krishnamurti resorting to that.

The BBC have just said that Osama Bin Laden’s son-in-law has been arrested and taken to America on terror charges.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21706645

On and on and on.

As you will know Craig Scottish, English and European waters have been decided by International Laws which no one country can arbitrarily change, not even within UK waters.

For those who don’t know, the underwater mountain range known as the Continental Shelf is the dividing line between European/Scandinavian waters and UK waters. The Act is the Continental Shelf Jurisdiction Act 1964 (Geneva)- where it was signed.

Then Scottish lawyers raised the prospect of legal jurisdiction in the Scottish part of the North Sea. The UK Government and Europe agreed on a second Act, the Continental Shelf Jurisdiction Act 1968 (London) which drew a line from Berwick straight across to the Continental Shelf. The line is parallel 55degrees 50 North.

The signings in Geneva and London were by all parties involved and can only be changed by ALL parties.

The real disgrace here is how every single Labour MP and every single member of the Labour hierarchy in Scotland let this attempt at cheating Scotland out of some of its Oil and Gas wealth go without a single cheap of protest.

BETTER TOGETHER? Do you really think so?

VOTE YES in 2014

Mary…I think I can beat that..I was on a satellite phone ($10 per min) from Tindouf in Algeria, to a call centre trying to sort out my Diners Club payments…2 hours 17 mins if I remember correcty…they asked for my current location..I asked them if they had Google Earth ! I totally sympathise..me and Craig will have a wee whisky for you tomorrow night ! Oh, and I can never listen to Bohemian Rhapsody without grinding my teeth and supressing an urge to punch something !!

Cheers Frazer and Sláinte to all the Murrays.

I saw the other day that Craig has a titled namesake!

Lord Craig John Murray (born 1963), who in 1988 married Inge Bakker, the second daughter of Auke Bakker, of Bedfordview, South Africa. They have two children: Carl Murray (born 1993) and
Shona Murray (born 1995)

Third son of 11th Duke of Atholl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murray,_11th_Duke_of_Atholl

Craig

This is where the fight is. Welcome.

The BBC does “ma nut” in every night. Most english people would be shocked to witness their behaviour.

There’s been a leaked Scottish Government document doing the rounds for the last 24 hours. In all that time I’ve heard only one SNP person allowed to comment on it on BBC TV or radio. He was up against 2 Unionists plus a BBC Interegrator, Gordon Brewer tried to limit the SNP spokesman to less than 10 words.
Every news bulletin had Unionist politicians discussing the document without any SNP input.

The NAW camp are on a war footing caused by the latest economic figures that show the scottish economy is doing much better than the overall UK economy to the tune of over £800 per person per year.

Check out

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/6885-bbc-scotland-hard-core-on-war-footing-as-the-battle-for-minds-heats-up

“Well Fred you wouldn’t if you rely on Herald Scotland for your information
.
It is as biased as the BBC.”

It’s looking to me like “biassed” just means “not Nationalist” round here.

The claim was that the BBC had found the only French person in the entire world who is against Scottish independence and that her claims that the French government were against it were lies. I could find no evidence to support this claim and I found evidence to refute it.`Do you have any evidence or are you just going to make claims of bias against everyone who doesn’t agree with you?

Same with the claims about England stealing maritime territory from Scotland, I checked it out, it’s just Nationalist propaganda.

I don’t even think the majority of people in Scotland are in favour of independence.

@Villager, 10:00 pm

“…do you know where one can find Assange’s defence committee’s response to DAG’s piece”

In Arbeds absence,

I wonder if it not is this document, that is referred to at the end of Joseph Farrell email, as published in the pastbin link

http://justice4assange.com/extraditing-assange.html

Fred

Can you explain why you’re against independence, if you are.

Is it nationalism or economy or what.

@ Fred (23h05) – you said ;

“…or are you just going to make claims of bias against everyone who doesn’t agree with you?”

You’d better get used to it, Fred, if you dare question the general line agreed by the Eminences.

Fred,

I would hazard a guess that Craig has more experience on the legality of maritime borders than yourself.

With relation to ‘Scotland’s Oil’, in 1999 Westminster moved Scotland’s Marine Boundaries from Berwick-upon-Tweed to Carnoustie. Illegally making 6000 miles of Scotland’s waters English.

Scottish MSP’s who belong to the parties who allowed this order must be ashamed.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1126/contents/made

This unjust act secretly passed, without the consent of the Scottish People, took approximately 15% of oil and gas revenues out of the Scottish sector of the North Sea taking £2.2 Billion out of the Scottish economy. This lost revenue is more than the proposed £35 Billion Scottish budget cuts for the next 15 years (£2.16 Billion per year)

@ Herbie (23h16) – you posted as follows to Fred :

“Fred

Can you explain why you’re against independence, if you are.

Is it nationalism or economy or what”

A good question, which reminds me that I don’t think I seen any explanation at all on this thread from the pro-independence brigade of why they’re FOR independence (I may have missed one or two, but certainly not more).

If I were Fred, I think I’d reply to Herbie asking him (and others) to explain why they’re for independence. After all, it is for those seeking to change the status quo to explain why.

@ CE (23h21) – you wrote :

“With relation to ‘Scotland’s Oil’, in 1999 Westminster moved Scotland’s Marine Boundaries from Berwick-upon-Tweed to Carnoustie. Illegally making 6000 miles of Scotland’s waters English”

What, in your opinion, was the motive and what, if any, were the practical consequences of this (bearing in mind the year : 1999, when there was no talk of independence) ?

“This unjust act secretly passed, without the consent of the Scottish People, took approximately 15% of oil and gas revenues out of the Scottish sector of the North Sea taking £2.2 Billion out of the Scottish economy.”

Can you talk us through the practical consequences of this? Did the “Scottish economy” exist other than as a statistical concept? If not, what was the practical use of calculating it (if you’re thinking inter alia of the application of the Barnett formula, the Scots would presumably have got a higher allocation?).

Habbakuk

I really don’t have a strong view on the matter. I’m inclined to the view that independence might be good for the Scots, in a number of ways, but am happy to listen to unionist arguments against this.

“the claims about England stealing maritime territory from Scotland, I checked it out, it’s just Nationalist propaganda.”

Could elaborate Fred, what did you find which refutes these claims (which are quite confident)?

The 1987 boundary does look a bit angled unfairly off the coastline however. It might be standard practice to follow l??ditude? but going perpendicular to the lump coastline, seems fairer to chop up the earths precious ancient savings.

Herbie

OK, fair enough if you’re fairly open-minded. But there seems to be a few pretty convinced separatists on this thread and they don’t seem to have given any reasons.

So I withdraw my comment in respect of yourself but maintain it for others.

“(bearing in mind the year : 1999, when there was no talk of independence)” [my emphasis]</blockquote
No talk of independence? Scotland had just got its own parliament! OK, that's not full independence, but it's a big step in that direction, and I'm sure that plenty were talking about independence and how it had just become far more likely.

Habba,

I believe the 1999 borders were moved in order to weaken the possible independence argument in a devolved Scotland, the main practical consequence has been the underrating of Scotland’s economic performance and of her contribution to the UK economy as a whole.

We’re made out to be the scrounger of the UK, but thanks to Scotland’s oil revenues(some of which have been unfairly reclassified as English) we have been massive net contributors to the UK economy.

The Barnett Formula also intrinsically works against Scotland as it bears no relation to actual money raised in Scotland. The BF works by taking the money spent in England on services and allocating an equivalent percentage (based on population and devolved service provision) to the Scottish Government.

A truly fascinating post from Vronsky at 20h18 which bears reading and re-reading.

Vronsky has got his conspiracy lined up on both fronts and ready to meet all eventualities :

- if the vote is NO to independence, then it’s the result of propaganda and misinformation by the media (BTW, that’s a real vote of confidence in the intelligence of the Scottish electorate – thanks, Vronsky)

- if the vote is YES, then there will be false flag operations orchestrated by the British and the military will intevene.

I was going to comment on this paranoid nonsense, but on reflection I think I’ll let it speak for itself.

Are you seeking election to the Egregiousness of Exellences, Vornsky?

**********

La vita è bella, life is good! (don’t let a conspiracy spoil it)

Clark :

Nonsense! The Scottish parliament was conceived as the alternative to independence.

Here in the south of England, people parrot the unionist propaganda with no thought of how little sense it makes. They say that Scottish independence would be a bad thing, but simultaneously bemoan (though the claim is false) that England subsidises Scotland.

Then, if not Conservatives themselves, they complain that without Scotland, Westminster would be permanently under a Conservative government; how’s that for blaming your problem on those who wish to break free of it?

Habba,

For some nationalists devolution is a progression, not a single event, and devolution was a natural stepping stone on that progress from United Kingdom to Independence.

The lesser-spotted Scottish Tories, who were as usual on the wrong side of the Devo Campaign, also used as the main thrust of their argument that Devo would irrevocably set Scotland on the path to independence, so we can presume it was very much an issue for the Establishment at the time.

I find the Independence movement mystifying. Personally, I just don’t care; bigger fish to fry etc. Wee Alec’s chuminess with Rupert should cause everyone to raise an eye-brow, for one. However, wheeling out Blair is bad idea. Oligarchs, Media types, Tories, and US Policy Elites may still fawn over Blair, but everyone else knows his for what he is: a wanker. I mean the war-crimes need to be proven at the Hague, the ‘being a massive wanker’ part clearly does not. It’s dead obvious. A few votes for Wee Alec there, I think.

For me, there is no such thing as an ‘Independent’ Scotland. Our choices are limited by US Empire, regardless. But if Blair doesn’t like, it can’t be all bad, I suppose.

@Fred

“The claim was that the BBC had found the only French person in the entire world who is against Scottish independence and that her claims that the French government were against it were lies. I could find no evidence to support this claim and I found evidence to refute it.”

What evidence did you find to refute Craig’s claim that her claims of French government opposition to Scottish independence were lies?

Put up or shut up, Fred. Give us your links.

I’ve just done a Google search on Google France … here’s the only article I could find that gives a detailed analysis of any political problems for Europe arising from Independence and a résume of French/European attitudes to it. (It appears to be an official publication … of the European Parliament?)

http://www.taurillon.org/L-Ecosse-sera-t-elle-un-defi-pour-l-Europe,05250

As it’s in French I’ll loosely translate two quotes from it:

“Ainsi, il semblerait que juridiquement, une Écosse nouvellement indépendante du Royaume-Uni serait de facto membre de l’UE à moins de dénoncer le trait”.

Thus, it would seem that, legally speaking, a newly independent Scotland would be a de facto member of the UE unless it renounced the treaty.

“L’Union européenne, cela ne fait pas de doute, ne s’opposerait pas à un mouvement sécessionniste émanant de la majorité de la population concernée, et cela en vertu du droit des peuples à disposer d’eux mêmes …”

The European Union, would in no way oppose an independence movement supported by the majority of the population concerned by virtue of it’s recognition of the right of peoples to self-determination …

Habbabkuk, you engage in doublespeak. You claim that there was “no talk of independence”, so how do you support your claim that “The Scottish parliament was conceived as the alternative to independence”?

You’ve neatly contradicted yourself. Was that your “intellectual firepower” or do you take everyone for idiots who’ll fall for such rubbish? The broom cupboard is ready for you; go and have an argument with yourself.

Courtesy of Stuart Campbell;

So what’s really going to happen to oil revenues in the next few years?

“An independent Scotland would begin with a £4 billion black hole in its finances due to a fall in oil revenues, UK Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander said yesterday.” (The Scotsman, 2nd March 2013)

“”Oil production should revive from recent levels for a period of several years, particularly with the higher-price scenario, where the increase could be substantial,” the study by Alexander Kemp and Linda Stephen [of the University of Aberdeen] concluded.” (Reuters, 5th December 2012)

“Oil prices could rise to anywhere between $150 and $270 a barrel by 2020 as demand growth in emerging markets like India and China outpaces expected supply, the OECD said Wednesday.

“I think people have been calmer about oil prices given the new supply, but if you really look at the implications of rising demand, you see this isn’t true,” said Isabelle Koske, economist at the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development and one author of a report on oil prices published Wednesday.” (The Wall Street Journal, 6th March 2013)

“Oil & Gas UK reckons oil receipts will be £3bn higher in 2017 than forecast last year. While Brent crude prices are now around $110 per barrel, by 2017, the UK’s Department of Energy and Climate Change predicts they could hit $130 a barrel, while the latest OECD predictions put them higher, at an eye-watering, record $150 a barrel.” (The Guardian, 7th March 2013)

We just can’t decide who the most reliable authority is. What a puzzle.

A lot of English opposition to Scottish independence seems like simple envy of Scotland’s superior social provision; “we pay for their free prescriptions” etc.

Scottish independence would be very beneficial to England eventually. The Conservative majority in parliament, uninterrupted by distracting periods of (fake) Labour government would be revealed as a disaster, and a majority of English voters would finally agitate for an electoral system that made some sense.

Scotland and England were at one time two different land masses that came together, the point that they came together is for all intent and purpose the line that Hadrian’s Wall follows.

Not a lot of people know that.

“I would hazard a guess that Craig has more experience on the legality of maritime borders than yourself.”

Then he can download the correct map from the government web site, print it off as I did, measure the nearest point in each country to the line as I did then tell me where I went wrong.

At the moment the Westminster government can legally set the boundary where the hell they want, if Scotland becomes independent then they can negotiate but as far as I can see the line has been drawn according to international conventions.

If I’m missing something just tell me but otherwise I have to go with the facts not the hype.

“The Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is failing the people of Scotland”

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/03/07/bedroom-tax-the-scottish-government-must-stop-playing-politics-with-disabled-peoples-lives-black-triangle/#comment-25736

I’ll just make an observation, if I may.

If Westminster wishes to hold Scotland, then that desire must ultimately derive from the economic or other strategic benefit to Westminster.

Is that a fair assessment?

“For some nationalists devolution is a progression, not a single event, and devolution was a natural stepping stone on that progress from United Kingdom to Independence.”

Devolution, just like evolution only in the other direction.

Fred, this comment above could be a useful starting point for your investigation:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/propaganda-against-scotland/#comment-397879

“What evidence did you find to refute Craig’s claim that her claims of French government opposition to Scottish independence were lies?

Put up or shut up, Fred. Give us your links. ”

I posted the link to the Herald article.

Now you post your link that shows only one person in France supports independence.

You put up or shut up.

FAO Fred;

http://www.un.org/depts/los/nippon/unnff_programme_home/fellows_pages/fellows_papers/dundua_0607_georgia.pdf

“Fred, this comment above could be a useful starting point for your investigation:”

No, that looks irrelevant.

Hey Border, I think that was many ice ages ago Scotland was separate, millions of years if at all discernable. It is only an ice age or three since the North Sea was forested with a big river running through it.

I think Scottish Independence has many hurdles and losses, but the attraction is not breaking up locality or neighbourly affairs, it is breaking up our warmongering and exploiting old empire.

Fred, you may also find some useful sources here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Scotland%27s_oil#Reality_of_the_claim

crab:

“…the attraction is [...] breaking up our warmongering and exploiting old empire.”

I strongly agree.

@ Brian Hill Exelent post, Great info Cheers

“FAO Fred;”

Thank you, that seems to back up what I said nicely.

@Fred i have read you make good sense, but this is poor from you – sticking on the “only person in france” phrase which was of course an exaggeration.

And this:
“At the moment the Westminster government can legally set the boundary where the hell they want, if Scotland becomes independent then they can negotiate but as far as I can see the line has been drawn according to international conventions.”

You previously wrote this:
“Same with the claims about England stealing maritime territory from Scotland, I checked it out, it’s just Nationalist propaganda.”

I dont think it is just that, i think the map is clear it is an unfair boundary which needs corrected. You cant just say you figured out something different, our eyes can see the 1999 border cuts into the sea off Scotlands coast obliquely from Englands. The other countries which you mentioned are too far away to persuade, and you could arguably draw many lines in relation to them. The case is a simple one in essence that the 1999 border is not acceptable.

“Fred, you may also find some useful sources here:”

Yes that seems to cover it. The first act covers legal jurisdiction, that is if a crime is committed which laws will apply. The second seems to be to do with fish quotas, which country do the fish belong to. Neither of them governs who owns the oil as it all belongs to the UK. Should Scotland become independent then they will have to negotiate a maritime boundary but to my mind it will be based on equidistance like the second act not some inane belief that lines should run east west.

“I dont think it is just that, i think the map is clear it is an unfair boundary which needs corrected. You cant just say you figured out something different, our eyes can see the 1999 border cuts into the sea off Scotlands coast obliquely from Englands.”

On the map posted by Craig it does.

On the map included in the act of parliament it doesn’t.

“On the map included in the act of parliament it doesn’t.”

Can you make allowances for me and post a link to that map or document.. sorry if it has already been posted.

“You cant just say you figured out something different, our eyes can see the 1999 border cuts into the sea off Scotlands coast obliquely from Englands.”

It’s an extension of the boundary on land. This is an internationally recognised convention.

There are better fairer conventions than accepting the twist of a land border as it hits the coast. Only people who dont care about the Sea off their coast or who could be bullied into it would accept that. There is no way england would except it if the land border happened to turn to the South as hits the coast.

And it would be unfair to expect them to.

Its easy to miss because we survived European conflict and built and empire out of being unfair, but it is long overdue the age to put an end to it.

“There is no way england would except it if the land border happened to turn to the South as hits the coast.”

Like it does on the West Coast you mean? It does and they did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scottish_waters.png

In that image the sea border goes through the middle of the firth actually a bit closer to Scotlands coastline than Englands again. It also many times smaller than the division on the east coast.

You have confused the relevance of South on the east and west coasts Kempe. On the East coast the sea boundary should arguably be a little nothernly because of the angle of the isle, on the west it should by the same measure go a little south. But the west border splits a firth/estuary which imposes its own local center, it would be crazy for someone to end up with no sea of their coastline or a bit of land chopped off from folowing a large scale center or land border extrapolation.

And a bit of back story on the historical deception of the people of Scotland. We were never to be trusted with the information concerning the true potential of Scotland’s oil reserves, I wonder why?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

The map does look a bit fairer when it is squashed, viewed from a perspective in space way out over the equator. I hope thats not one of your favoured conventions Fred :p

I thought i had that covered Geoffrey.

Although the thing about the courts, really hits it out of sight.

@ Kempe

““Scotland was allocated a share of that UK deficit, which was added to the nation’s debt balance, on a per-capita basis rather than being related to Scotland’s own finances.”

Well if Scotland goes its separate way under the international laws of succession national debt (and moveable assets) are divided up according to population size. ie on a per capita basis. If you want an example look at what happened when Czechoslovakia split.”

The House of Commons Library researchers did a paper on the methods of splitting (Scotland, independence and the EU) and gave three possible scenarios.

Dissolution – the example being Czechoslovakia.

Separation – separating a voluntary union of two recognised states – of which the United Arab Republic is cited as an example. Under this there appears to be “a presumption in favour of continuity of treaties with regard to each component part”.

Continuation and secession – which Westminster is arguing for. In their opinion rUK would retain all the treaty obligations and membership of international organisations. Scotland would start from scratch. In Westminster’s version, rUK would also retain all the assets. However, here is the big but. BUT, they expect us to shoulder a share of the liabilities. They must think we zip up the back. I don’t think international law backs them on this.

The Yes campaign and the SNP have agreed that under separation they would happily agree to shoulder Scotland’s share of the national debt. At least one leading international lawyer has stated that Westminster’s position is not very tenable. Separation does also seem to be the most applicable scenario – unless someone wants to claim the union wasn’t voluntary.

http://www.scotreferendum.com/2013/03/03/negotiating-a-better-pathway-to-scottish-independence/

CE
‘With relation to ‘Scotland’s Oil’, in 1999 Westminster moved Scotland’s Marine Boundaries from Berwick-upon-Tweed to Carnoustie. Illegally making 6000 miles of Scotland’s waters English.’

So, nothing to do with Gordon Brown then. He was only UK Chancellor of the Exchequer then. Maybe he brokered the deal for Scottish devolution in exchange for transferral of resources. That’s what happened in Libya.

Erdogan risks being kicked out by Turkish voters in 2014, as happened to the other Usraeli puppet and military adventurer Saakashvilli in nearby Georgia. ONLY Turkey can supply the boots on the ground for any Syria invasion, Agent Cameron is in a bind – any British participation in a NATO adventure before 2014 will mean a SURE Scottish Yes vote (I dare say a lot of English might just move temporarily up North just to vote Yes!). Russia and Iran will soon have their boots on the ground in Syria, NATO needs the Scottish referendum business out of the way quickly, or at least delayed after a definitive move on Syria, and we should soon see the Cons coming up with all possible chicanery to scrap the 2014 referendum.

Craig “I am quite happy to join in debate on these threads in general, but on this particular subject your arguing with me is rather like me arguing with Geoffrey Boycott on the basis of what I had managed to google about batting technique.”

Tee hee hee – can you please similarly quell Hubbkyk the “Yorkshire Methodist/Catholic” MI5 ripper/spoiler, who would have us take in a movie in New York instead of going to the cinema in the West End ! IP address search can be quite revealing.

@Herbie, Habbabkuk et al. Scottish Independence

As a distant outsider whose opinion is of little importance, unsolicited, unwelcome and of zero consequence, I’d like to impose it on you anyway.

The union of Scotland, England and Wales was a bloody and brutal process fought over a very long time. No doubt, either the North or South got the better of the deal in the long run, but both were better off in any case. How many deadly conflicts were avoided as a result? It’s hard to present a case based on what DIDN’T happen but MIGHT have. It’s still worth considering.

Now we see the fad of nationalism revisit Britain, as scheming political careerists try to divide the pond in which they hope to lord it over others as bigger fish. They tap into primitive human psychology and appeal to tribalistic pride in an effort to win their support. They make big claims regarding the economic benefits but diminish the anticipated costs in the hope that latent greed smothers rational contemplation of the hard numbers. Is the average Scot to receive a pay rise, improved employment prospects or lower taxes? I don’t think so. After the party, someone has to clean up the mess.

What will ordinary Scots actually enjoy as a result of independence? Enduring pride? Enduring self-esteem? A sense of identity that is currently absent? A government free of corruption and incompetence? A cultural renaissance? Social justice? A never-ending stream of revenues from fossil fuels? Economic boom times?

And do they really want “independence” or a pretentious immitation that is subsidised by the South? Are they intending to develop their own very expensive defence forces to meet the obligations of defending their part of Britain? Are they to respect the right of the South to impose immigration controls including visas and deportation? How will they handle jurisdictional issues? Will there be a Scottish High Commission in London? Will there be all those expensive diplomatic missions popping up in other countries? Ireland spent over €56M on its 75 embassies in 2010. Myriad questions but where are the credible answers?

There’s much work to do to make Scotland TRULY independent. And with TRUE independence they should not be naive about the potential problems that will arise in the future – not only with their powerful Southern neighbour but also countries with whom the UK currently has strategic alliances and nuanced arrangements. The UK has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Scotland does not.

A lot of blood was spilt in uniting Britain and here we are centuries later, watching it being unravelled by a bunch of hopeless romantics and some greedy opportunists. If Scotland wants to go it alone, good luck to them. They’re gonna need it because London will not entertain discussions of a reunion before the pain and embarrassing failure of independence is rubbed sorely into the conciousness of every Scot. The English can be quite vindictive, you know, and that moving border trick is just a sign of how this game is going to be played out.

If anyone has a compelling argument advocating independence, or link to same, please share.

A primer for the uncommitted  - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence

Quite ironic that Huhne’s father had a stake in a business making speed cameras!

‘Basically the reason he was able to build property portfolio and fund his political ambitions has very little to do with him “making millions in the City”, which he didn’t, and a lot to do with me.’

Pryce also referred to ‘dodgy investments in mining companies’ and suggested the journalist investigate how Huhne could afford to manage his property portfolio.

She said her former husband also had his father Peter, 86, to thank for a series of gifts and ‘cheap shares’ which were sold at a massive profit.

This was his 5 per cent stake in Traffic Safety Systems, his father’s speed and surveillance camera business which was floated in 2003.

Pryce said: ‘His supposed wealth owes a certain amount to his final bonus but was built mainly because for most of our marriage he could rely on me to earn what I did.

‘And partly on an injection of funds from his father through gifts and also cheap shares which were then sold for a huge multiple when his father’s company was floated.

‘He used all this mainly to pursue his political ambitions and develop a property cushion from which he was earning some rental income.’

She added that without her earnings he could never have pursued his political ambitions or bought his Eastleigh constituency property outright.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2289935/A-new-Lib-Dem-cover-Pryce-claims-confessed-Cable-dropped-hint-Cleggs-wife-months-scandal-broke.html#ixzz2Mvq3URsC

The LDs should have fun today at their meet in Brighton which is in fog today, much like their party’s affair. There will be more blather from Clegg.

halfwit, when you say France are our enemy are you referring to them as a Scot or an Englishman?
the reason I ask is that France has been a longstanding ally of Scotland going back centuries, when they supported Scotland against English domination.

The media, including the BBC World Service, have moved on from attacking the memory of President Chavez, to attacking North Korea today. This follows Rice’s speech in the UN announcing new and harsher sanctions. She wants them to ‘bite hard’. Another strange example of womanhood like Clinton who get off on being warlike.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9916965/North-Korea-threatens-to-sever-hotline-to-South-Korea.html

‘Pyongyang’s latest announcement came hours after the UN Security Council beefed up existing sanctions on the communist state in response to its February 12 nuclear test.

The resolution adopted by the 15-member Council added new names to the UN sanctions blacklist and tightened restrictions on North Korea’s financial dealings, notably its suspect “bulk cash” transfers.

The new sanctions will “bite hard”, said the US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice. “They increase North Korea’s isolation and raise the cost to North Korea’s leaders of defying the international community.”

China wants “full implementation” of the resolution, said its UN envoy Li Baodong, while stressing that efforts must be made to bring North Korea back to negotiations and to defuse tensions.’

The US baseball player has had a hard time from the US media for fraternizing with Kim Jong-un.

Craig
while in Lyon, I have not noticed that people I meet have strong opinions on potentially independent Scotland apart perhaps from those who are strongly against L’indépendance de la Bretagne. But the latter is no longer a hot topic.

Halibabacus,

your irrational struggle against conspiracy theories rather annoys me. What would our life be worth without a delightful conspiracy a day? Not much, I guess. It may surprise you that you can easily participate in one conspiracy or another without having noticed anything. Simple chaps like you are easily fooled. This reminds me of a friend who may have a little errand for you to do that can earn you few shekels. It is very simple, even you can manage. All you have to do is to deliver a box containing four of the most delicious pizzas to an address in the West End. The box will be handed over to you in a pub called the “Gay Grenadier”. The address of the pub together with othe info. will be sent to you as a telegramme from Tel Aviv. I propose this rather cumbersome way as you admitted that you are already used to this sort of communication. I do not know yet where you live but if you have to travel from afar do not bother to buy a return ticket. You will not need it.

A map of North Sea oil fields and wells. I had not realized just how many there are.

http://www.acorn-ps.com/web/page/oilgas/nsfields/nnsmap.htm

and the list of operators.

https://www.og.decc.gov.uk/fields/fields_index.htm

Mary,

“Quite ironic that Huhne’s father had a stake in a business making speed cameras!”

The Universe is a magical place and sometimes has unusually dramatical ways of revealing life’s hand. I don’t quite feel sorry for the ex-wife who is going have to pay the pryce for her negative and vindictive willfullness.
—
Re Krishnamurti, yes please do delve into his writings and talks. Huhne and Pryce are going to also have plenty of time to do so, though I’d much rather being exploring from the cosiness of your country home and the sane mind-space you live in. Have a lovely day!

Yawn on the Scotland thing.

But here’s something interesting:Chavez will have the biggest funeral ever held in the Americas.

It will be bigger than Eva Peron’s. She got 3 million people. Chavez could easily get 5 million.

One reason this is important is because of the everyone-go-and-block-the-streets, which has changed the face of Latin America.

These are not ‘flash mobs’. This isn’t Twitterised and Facebookised. This is popular power.

Nonetheless, observers from agencies which have successfully run ‘colour revolutions’ and ‘springs’ will be present in Caracas to see what weaknesses they can find, and more generally what they can learn, for future vile use in ‘people’s power’ mindfuck operations.

Expect leading scumbag journalists to give quite considered advice on this score.

But as I said, this is not that. This is the real thing.

In many of the countries in the region, it will be very hard for anyone to impose widespread austerity measures, at least for a long time.

There will be no Uncle-Sam-backed Ayn-Rand-and-Twitter-themed ‘colour revolution’ – oops, sorry, I mean ‘springtime’ – in Caracas, in Buenos Aires, in La Paz, etc. People are too strong to allow it.

(Has anyone else noticed the quasi-Randroid theme in the contemporary version of so-called ‘Marxist’ so-called ‘Autonomism’? All that stuff about intellectuals being producers. I don’t ask rhetorically. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that obvious observation made.)

How are the mass-market western media going to report Chavez’s funeral? Are they going to tell their markets that the huge popular involvement is only because people have been forced at gunpoint to attend, for fear of being locked up in labour camps or chopped up by some analogues of the Tonton Macoutes?

Expect some kind of discourse on religion too.

Is the idea that God is the poor in struggle, which goes way beyond most ‘liberation theology’, even recuperable?

Those who think everything and everyone has a price may think everything is recuperable. Those bastards may be wrong

For reference: not every country in the western world does run a budget deficit. Most do. Brazil, Russia, Norway and Switzerland don’t.

It’s actually highly misleading to talk of ‘Scotland’ currently running either a deficit or a surplus.

Dear Technicolour,

It is good to see you back and I’m sorry if you sound disappointed. I shall do my best to explain, i don’t think what i said was so alarming. But before that let me clarify that, as much as i think Krishnamurti was one of the greatest thinkers of the last century, and indeed in modern history, I am not he nor do i belong to any association of K followers etc.

Firstly, what is the root meaning of the word “humble”? the etymology is “from Latin humilis “lowly, humble,” literally “on the ground,” from humus “earth.”

The facts are that Jemima was appointed ‘Executive Producer’ to the “We Steal Secrets” documentary, not because of her documentarian or film-making skills, but because she happens to be born ‘high’ as a Goldsmith, is a well-known London socialite and, further because of her apparent proximity to Assange as a friend and as a surety.

As Jemima’s wikipedia entry confirms “Khan first gained notice in the United Kingdom as a young heiress, the daughter of Lady Annabel and Sir James Goldsmith. She converted to Islam and married Pakistani cricketer and politician Imran Khan in 1995. Khan also gained worldwide media attention for her relationship with British film star Hugh Grant.”

I take it that you have read in full Joseph Farrell’s email to her and her op-ed piece in the NS for context. In summary, she is responsible for the utterly misleading title of the documentary for Wikileaks doesn’t steal anything. That makes her a blatant liar. Further, she lies about her inability to get a response from Assange because as she alleges he was too busy, yet wanted a photo opportunity with her. Yet more lies as the email explains.

Turning to Krishnamurti, he wouldn’t have knowingly engaged with an opportunistic habitual liar but may well have suggested that that represents a deluded state and they would be well advised to stick to the truth and be more grounded. And also not to operate from a ‘centre’ (ego) in one’s pursuit of Freedom. But there is a more profound point from K’s teachings which coincidentally i posted above earlier at 15.22. Extracting from that, if i may:

” Before the law all are supposedly equal, but some are `more equal’ than others who have not sufficient money to employ good lawyers. Some are born high, others low. Observing all this in the world there is apparently very little justice. So where is justice then? It appears that there is justice only when there is compassion. Compassion is the ending of suffering. Compassion is not born out of any religion or from belonging to any cult. You cannot be a Hindu with all your superstitions and invented gods and yet become compassionate you cannot. To have compassion there must be freedom, complete and total freedom, from all conditioning. Is such freedom possible? The human brain has been conditioned over millions of years. That is a fact. And it seems that the more we acquire knowledge about all the things of the earth and heaven, the more do we get bogged down. When there is compassion, then with it there is intelligence, and that intelligence has the vision of justice.”
J Krishnamurti

Jemima started out in supporting Assange and showing compassion. Sadly, she soon fell prey to temptation in order to expand her career and ego and before long dropped her opportunistic fake compassion for Assange and instead attacked him. The following extracts from Farrells letter are pertinent to what i said:

”
It is one thing to publicly disagree with someone, or even to distance
oneself in public from a former ally, but it is quite another to use
one’s own publication to the further harm of a political refugee
suffering the persecution of a superpower.”
and
”
From the point of view of defending a film in which you feature as
“Executive Producer”, your actions are straightforward: your name is on
the credits of a dated WikiLeaks documentary with a prejudicial title
which features all the hostile people who haven’t had anything to do
with WikiLeaks in years. You chose a production credit over principle
and in doing so attacked a vulnerable political activist and fellow
journalist, something which I know to be beneath you”

So yes, I do believe that Jemima needs to come down to earth again, be grounded and free herself from being use as a pawn by her ‘high society’ of the Establishment. And i do believe that Julian is a free-spirit and a brave man in taking on the World’s hyper-power and deserves our compassion, including Jemima’s if she can be true to her inner intelligence.

TC, i may have got it wrong but i’d be interested in your thoughts.

It seems to me unlikely the UK Gov will allow Scotland to be independent. For now the strategy seems to be to use propaganda and scarre tactics to turn Scottish opinion against the idea. Fear of the unknown is powerful.

Later – should the above tactics fail, I predict a backtrack on the referendum. There will be political fallout of course but I suspect many of those responsible for agreeing to a referendum will be on the way out by then…

I would quite like to see a more independent Scotland. I’m half Scottish myself. But I’m not holding my breath.

That was sweet of you Villager. Can’t see much of anything today in thick fog.

I was going to send you a friendly wave and was looking for a sign, not an emoticon. Came across this. Remarkable that moves are being made to keep the Native American languages alive, isn’t it? The peoples have lost pretty well everything else it seems.

http://pictographs.turquoisetales.com/

I will persist with Krishnamurti.

Michael Culver
7 Mar, 2013 – 5:14 pm
“Craig The readers of your blog would rather you didn’t have a heart attack and especially not over anything the Brutish Brainwashing Conspiration says.(thank you Villager).”

Michael, you’re very welcome and yes i prefer your acronym and happy to contribute. Agree with all you said.

Life comes in phases and life is long. Blair has some interesting times ahead. I don’t know how he sleeps at night. He has a huge debt to pay. I wish him a long life, long enough to allow him to pay his debts.

The BBC’s activities and presentation over the question of Scottish Independence is a national disgrace; when they do allow an SNP or YES campaign onto their programmes, they harang them, talk over them and interrupt at every opportunity.
They are an arm of the State, supporters the Labour party through their personal relationships and as we are required to pay for the service it is intolerable that they and MSM get away with these lies.
If you want to know what is happening in Scotland try these websites:
http://www.newsnetscotland.com
http://wingsoverscotland.com/

Good to see Yukon being taught in schools again. This philosophy is from the days before schools were introduced to native Americans, but there is a lot of wisdom there.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=581429871868550&set=a.254630291215178.74224.254587994552741&type=1&theater

N_ spoke of the funeral of President Chavez today and how the media will deal with it.

There are 18 uses of the words left and leftist in this short piece which includes such sentences as

‘For leaders such as Ecuador’s Rafael Correa, himself a fiery president, it is clear that the death of the 58-year-old leaves a void that will be difficult to fill for the radical leaders who rose to power in the region after Chavez was swept into office in 1999.

Almost all of them pledge to carry forward the torch as this oil-rich country of 29 million prepares a funeral on Friday that will include pomp and circumstance and a heavy dose of mythmaking.’

Leaders of Latin America’s new left gather to say farewell to Hugo Chavez
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/chavez-funeral-draws-us-world-leaders/2013/03/07/818d4afa-8745-11e2-a80b-3edc779b676f_story.html

“Good to see Yukon being taught in schools again. This philosophy is from the days before schools were introduced to native Americans, but there is a lot of wisdom there.”

Well said John Goss, about time too, cause schools and education has lost its way and soul.
This animation, sorry for following this with another O/T post, Craig, not only points to the mistakes in the system, it also shows a way forward, in a rather unique way, call it a talking pen if you like.

http://www.wholeeducation.org/pages/overview/introduction/513,0/things_we_like.html

Thank you Mary for that kind thought. Yes that link was quite creative and inspiring, particularly in relation to a small project i’m working on.

I’m looking forward to that walk in the park despite the mist followed by a nice cappuccino. Meeting a friend who i met through sheer synchronicity who at age 30 has extraordinary perception. A sort of antithesis to our Babbler. There could be a subtle shift occurring in Man’s consciousness. Anyway all we can do is our bit, and if we did do that, that would be All. See you later.

Lastbluebell, thanks for your helpful guidance. Its going to be quite a read. Lovely day!

@ce

“I fear you misguided here.”

I sincerely hope you’re right. I’m simply describing the standard British process for dealing with these matters. The only important difference I can see between Scotland and Ireland is that the Scots have no (recent) history of violence in pursuit of independence, and that must make its introduction more problematic for Westminster. On the other hand, Scotland is vastly more valuable than NI from many points of view. I believe that military preparations were made back in the 70s when it was feared that independence would appear then, but I can no longer find links to that information.

Nevermind, great artistry as well as sound thinking. Apols for being O/T.

I gave up believing the BBC news reports many years ago. I saw a government minister being interviewed on reports that riot police had beaten up the boat people. He categorically denied it had happened. I turned to Sky news and there they were hammering hell out of unarmed men and women.

I’ve got news for you Douglas@11:09am, the BBC aren’t truthful, and neither are Sky.

Craig Evans @9:20am : Newsnetscotland censors comments heavily, seemingly arbitrarily, either from fear of litigation or plain old nasty west of scotland prejudice and numpty tribalism of those doing the moderating, it’s the pro-independence wing of noo-Labour drop-outs who hope to rise again after independence, still mired in divisive old divide and rule or religious discrimination/partiality and with a whiff of homophobia. Wings over Scotland has pompous contributors, it’s basically pro-independence with a gaggle of blue rinsed Tory ladies and spiv/yuppie elements, whose international perspective is still stuck in a half-century old ‘plucky little Israel’ and benevolent USA reality warp.

Try bellacaledonia if you want slices of insightful, witty and powerful writing.

Jemand TLH – your argument against independence seems to be that the English are cunts, so suck up Westminster’s policies or risk war. Afraid I’m not convinced.

I am REALLY interested in seeing an accurate map of the 1999 maritime boundary, as opposed to the sketch done by Craig.

The reason is, the sketch kinda resembles the ‘equidistance’ line that would allocate sea to whichever country was nearest. That line seems fair to me. The previous line was a straight latitude line heading east from where the border hits the sea, which to any objective person obviously gave an unfair extra share to Scotland.

So where can we see the actual 1999 maritime boundary!? It must be available for viewing somewhere!

Wait. Ahah. Coordinates are given here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1126/made/data.pdf

Craig

“You ask what you are missing. The answer is baselines.”

But they would only affect the first part of the line wouldn’t they? You soon get to a point where the nearest point in England is Farne Island and the nearest point in Scotland is Buchan Ness. The vast bulk of the line is in the right place isn’t it? You are only disputing the details near land?

You do accept that the 1967 statute is still in place so any claims that that boundary has been moved are false?

Check page 9 of that document – you can see it shows that the new boundary is the equidistance line.

In other words, the change allocates the North Sea that’s nearest to England to England, and the North Sea that’s nearest to Scotland to Scotland. Doesn’t sound that unfair .

Naebd, don’t be surprised if there aren’t attempts to move the eastern end of the Scotland-England land border some 30 miles or so northwards then redraw the maritime boundaries again after that partition plan becomes an accomplished fact on the ground. There is serious skulduggery at work, as the Southern Borders becomes more and more detached in communications, infrastructure, economically and socially from the rest of Scotland and entangled with Newcastle/Northumberland. That region of the Borders doesn’t even get Scottish/STV television to weakly counter New Labour’s captive BBC Scotland, to add to the insult of paying for the BBC dross and propaganda, their ‘local’ news covers largely Durham and Isle of Man affairs.

@ Keith B (05h03)

That was interesting, thank you. You mention three ways – dissolution, separation and continuation and secession. Do you know which of the these ways the SNP and Yes people are in favour of (presumably not continuation and secession since you say this is the Westminster preference, but which of the first two?)

“Wait. Ahah. Coordinates are given here:”

Yes, I posted a link to the map at the end earlier. That is the map I downloaded an printed off. The line is equidistant from the nearest point in England and the nearest point in Scotland. Anyone who doesn’t believe me can check it for themselves.

It’s looking to me like the claims of theft of Scottish territory by Westminster are just more Nationalist propaganda and scaremongering.

@ Jemand (07h25) :

“As a distant outsider whose opinion is of little importance, unsolicited, unwelcome and of zero consequence, I’d like to impose it on you anyway.”

I liked that. You have style! (But the Eminences will never admit you to their Egregiousness if you continue to show such levity…life is a grim business, you know!)

“What will ordinary Scots actually enjoy as a result of independence? Enduring pride? Enduring self-esteem? A sense of identity that is currently absent? A government free of corruption and incompetence? A cultural renaissance? Social justice? A never-ending stream of revenues from fossil fuels? Economic boom times?”

And I also think that your post makes a large number of very valid and sensible points. Congratulations!

*****

A nice addition to your handle, by the way, which has the virtue of not appearing as self-advertising (I will refrain from mentioning another, opposite example…)

********

La vita è bella, life is good! (May the good Lord heal Mary)

Karel posted this at O8h01 :

“Halibabacus,

your irrational struggle against conspiracy theories rather annoys me. What would our life be worth without a delightful conspiracy a day? Not much, I guess. It may surprise you that you can easily participate in one conspiracy or another without having noticed anything. Simple chaps like you are easily fooled. This reminds me of a friend who may have a little errand for you to do that can earn you few shekels. It is very simple, even you can manage. All you have to do is to deliver a box containing four of the most delicious pizzas to an address in the West End. The box will be handed over to you in a pub called the “Gay Grenadier”. The address of the pub together with othe info. will be sent to you as a telegramme from Tel Aviv. I propose this rather cumbersome way as you admitted that you are already used to this sort of communication. I do not know yet where you live but if you have to travel from afar do not bother to buy a return ticket. You will not need it.”

WOW ! To adapt slightly a famous quotation from Mark Twain, a humourous piece by Karel is no laughing matter!

*********

La vita è bella, life is good! (and a laugh)

@ Mary (07h46) :

Nice to see you joining in the dishing out of irrelevant dirt on Chris Huhne, Mary, nothing like kicking a person you’ve taken against when they’re down, is there, eh what? Not very Saintly, for sure. Perhaps you should form a team with Vicky – and change your handle to “Mary – For Slime and Sly Suggestion” ?

By the way, you aren’t accusing Chris Huhne of having made his money in any way illegally, are you?

***********

La vita è bella, life is good! (fight slime and innuendo)

Craig, the Argyll oilfield is nearer to the English coast, no matter how broad a baseline you draw. A baseline from Arbroath to Dunbar will have no effect on the boundary at the distance that the oilfields are from the coast. And the point 56° 36′ 31′N 02° 36′ 26′E, which as you rightly say is north of Dundee, is equidistant from England and Scotland.

One of those drain company power flushing vans was parked outside the Brighton hotel where Cleggover staged his arrival just now. Most unfortunate.

Farron the party chairman, in an interview with The House Magazine, ‘likened the party to a “cockroach” for its ability to survive but said this should not be taken for granted.

He said “99%” of people “don’t care” about the sexual harassment claims against Lib Dem peer Lord Rennard.

But he said the Lib Dems “certainly appear to have let people down” over the handling of the allegations, which Lord Rennard denies.

Senior figures in the party are also facing questions about when they knew of allegations that Pryce had taken speeding points on her husband’s behalf.’

He has also referred to LD members as ‘nutters’. Spot on there.

Lib Dems gather for spring conference amid controversy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21710803

@Craig P

Well, the ‘English cunt’ is certainly a factor that shouldn’t be ignored. What I ought to ask everyone who supports Scottish independence here is – do you also support calls for Welsh and Cornish independence? And if you do, at what point do you withhold your support for independence from people who call for it? When the landmass or population is too small? When the people belong to a religious order who want their own homeland but do not reside in a properly defined geographic landmass? 

I want to put a call out to all British Muslims. 

Many of you feel like you don’t belong. Your religion, culture, lifestyle and expectations of the future are much more divergent from the ‘average’ Brit than that experienced by Scottish folk. You have a distinct identity, like Scots, and you have rights that are no less important. If Scottish people have a right to call for independence, then so do you. Everyone does. We can debate the merits but no one has the right to silence your call for an open discussion.

Your population in England and Wales is nearly 3 million people which is more than that of Singapore’s when it declared independence from Britain in ’63. Your population is growing at an impressive rate and will very soon surpass that of Singapore’s five million. Singapore has been a raging success and there is no reason why you cannot achieve the same if given the right opportunity. In the UK, you have vocal supporters of independence movements not just here on Craig’s blog, but in many corners of British society. The common theme in independence movements is that of democracy – self representation for those who seek it. Do you seek it?

The island of Anglesey, NorthWest coast of Wales, is about the same size as Singapore and could easily accomodate an equivalent population if managed with the same zeal. What say all of you who support independence for Scotland? Independence for British Muslims in the Islamic state of Anglesey? No fair-minded person could refuse such a request. Indeed, there are many wealthy Arabs who could purchase the land of Anglesy a thousands of times over and I reckon they’d be receptive to a business proposition where everyone comes out a winner. Let’s move this idea forward.

British Muslims inspiring a new generation.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3500/islam-growing-religion-britain

Singapore, success story, 5 million people in 710Km^2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

The new Singapore?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey

What I ought to ask everyone who supports Scottish independence here is – do you also support calls for Welsh and Cornish independence? And if you do, at what point do you withhold your support for independence from people who call for it?…

I’d guess that a good proportion of English people living outside London would sympathise with the idea of cultural and even economic independence from London. Perhaps the answer is to turn London into a state (financed , as at present, from money laundering and derivatives – a worthy competitor to an even smaller independent state, Lichtenstein.) I’d support that, for sure. I know that many are increasingly embracing the idea of independence from Europe. Personally, I would like to be independent of America.

The bottom line is that if the Scots want it, and can do it, they should have it. Isn’t that what freedom and democracy are all about? Or have I missed some subtle shade of meaning to those words?

“The bottom line is that if the Scots want it, and can do it, they should have it. Isn’t that what freedom and democracy are all about? Or have I missed some subtle shade of meaning to those words?”

Then hold a referendum, hold it next week not at some time to coincide with the anniversary of some battle. Just have two words on the ballot paper, “Independence” and “Union”. Don’t alter the voting age to include those considered too young to vote in a normal election.

I’m all for democracy let it rip.